[Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI

Wed Nov 3 08:50:33 CDT 2010

Jennifer,

From 1947-1949, the pre-state and state of Israel forcefully and planfully 
expelled over 700,000 Palestinians from their homes; 300,000 were expelled prior 
to the "invasion of 5 Arab armies" after May 1948. These things are 
well-documented by now; but because it's Jews that perpetrated these crimes and 
those crimes are in accordance with good "western" American justifications for 
genocide, they are excused. It was a kind of genocide, that destroyed forever a 
civilization. We need to connect the genocides, not excuse some while condemning 
others. More important, we need to condemn the ones that were done in our name. 
And again, Israeli Jews now see themselves as a kind of "master race," in fact 
and deed if not in explicit words (although there's plenty of words, too). 

So I truly don't understand what you're saying. But if it would help not to call 
people who behave like Nazis Nazis, I'm all for it. How do you think it will 
help?

DG

________________________________
From: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
To: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 10:14:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI

David,  
I did not say Israel's behavior twds the Palestinians was "security" -- that 
parallel might be more like the US and Native Americans. My full quote 
[referring to young Israeli Zionists vs Hitler Youth] was: 

PLEASE acknowledge that there is a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference betw containment 
out of fear/for security reasons (however ill-conceived the intent and cruel the 
result), and extermination of a population to destroy a culture and preserve a 
"master race."
I'll also repeat my last sentence -- it's more truthful, and it also speaks to 
the flies/honey teachable moment thing: 
You need to re-visit that accusation and reword yr letter.
 --Jenifer
PS I also corrected yr spelling of my name :-)

--- On Tue, 11/2/10, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>wrote:

>From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>To: "Jenifer Cartwright" <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
>Cc: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 6:37 PM
>
>
>Jenifer, it depends what you mean by "teachable moment." Before you can have 
>"teachable moments," you have to stop having "dialogue" with those racists and 
>oppressors who aren't the least bit interested in being taught anything. The 
>"teachable moment" ought to arise from the moral clarity of the situation, which 
>is related to a respect for the facts. But you can't do that when you're 
>muddying the waters, such as you have done by lending credence to the notion 
>that Israel is motivated by "security." So far, lots of "teachable moments" have 
>resulted from the clarity that has been created by, recently, the attack on 
>Lebanon in 2006, Gaza in 2008-09, and the flotilla earlier this year. I'm hoping 
>that it won't take more massive criminality to provide more "teachable moments." 
>But if that is to be the case, it will have to take some honesty about who is 
>interested in listening, and who is not, and some proactive strategies about 
>having a movement, rather than just paying lip service and having outside 
>speakers. By the way, I don't have much respect for anyone who is "turned off" 
>by being told the truth, whether about Israel or its supporters.
>
>DG
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
>To: John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>; David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 5:15:04 PM
>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>
>
>David, 
>If you were looking for a teachable moment by writing and sending that letter to 
>the DI, but instead you've succeeded in turning off even those who are [or were] 
>in agreement w/ you about the larger Israeli-Palestinian issues, what was the 
>point?? 
> --Jenifer
>
>--- On Tue, 11/2/10, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>>To: "John W." <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
>>Cc: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 3:06 PM
>>
>>
>>John, I referred to dialogue among those interested in  learning something from 
>>each other.
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________
From: John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
>>To: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>>Cc: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>; Peace Discuss 
>><peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 2:12:11 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>>
>>
>>
>>On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 2:07 PM, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>The moral distinctions between the roles of Israelis and Palestinians are no 
>>less clear than those between Nazis and Jews. The results of those distinctions 
>>have been qualitatively different: expulsion, ethnic cleansing, occupation, 
>>confinement, etc., accompanied by lots of  murder and attacks on other countries 
>>(Lebanon, Egypt), with deaths into the tens of thousands, probably into the 
>>hundreds of thousands at this point. And the goals of Zionism are rooted in 
>>claims to racial superiority. 
>>
>>>
>>>Nothing of what Israel does has anything to do with "containment for security 
>>>reasons." Any more than what Germany did in the Warsaw Ghetto. That's the drum 
>>>that the Zionist students were beating last evening. They shouldn't be allowed 
>>>to get away with it--any more than we would allow for any other kind of hate, 
>>>relating to Muslims or gays or any other group, based on appeals to fear. Racism 
>>>is racism, hate is hate, whether or not it is couched in assertions of hatred 
>>>attributed to the hated "other."
>>>
>>>What's to be gained by "dialogue"?
>>>DG
>>>
>
>
>
>
>If nothing is to be gained by "dialogue", David, then why do you write your 
>letters?  Why did you earlier suggest "teach-ins"?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>From: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
>>To: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; ASA <asa.uiuc at gmail.com>; 
>>Irfan Ahmad <isahmad at uiuc.edu>; Lina ASA <lelbesh2 at uiuc.edu>; Sadia Bekal 
>><sbekal at uiuc.edu>; CAIR <hrahman2 at uiuc.edu>; CAN <can.uiuc at gmail.com>; ISO 
>><iso.champaign at gmail.com>; Aisha Sobh <asobh at uiuc.edu>; STOP 
>><trevaellison at gmail.com>; David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>>Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 1:56:42 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>>
>>
>>
>>David G, 
>>Yikes! Yes, there is heightened emotion and ramped-up rhetoric on both sides -- 
>>the occupied population -- "insurrectionists" -- are the good guys -- heroes! -- 
>>only in reference to 1776 when the colonists were the former, opposing British 
>>rule... but PLEASE acknowledge that there is a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference betw 
>>containment out of fear/for security reasons (how ever ill-conceived the intent 
>>and cruel the result), and extermination of a population to destroy a culture 
>>and preserve a "master race." You need to re-visit that accusation and reword yr 
>>letter.
>> --Jenifer   
>>
>>--- On Tue, 11/2/10, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>>>Subject: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>>>To: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>, "ASA" 
>>><asa.uiuc at gmail.com>, "Irfan Ahmad" <isahmad at uiuc.edu>, "Lina ASA" 
>>><lelbesh2 at uiuc.edu>, "ASA" <asa.uiuc at gmail.com>, "Sadia Bekal" 
>>><sbekal at uiuc.edu>, "CAIR" <hrahman2 at uiuc.edu>, "CAN" <can.uiuc at gmail.com>, "ISO" 
>>><iso.champaign at gmail.com>, "Aisha Sobh" <asobh at uiuc.edu>, "STOP" 
>>><trevaellison at gmail.com>
>>>Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 12:27 PM
>>>
>>>
>>>On November 1st, Students for Justice in Palestine hosted a courageous young 
>>>Israeli woman at Noyes Lab who has refused to serve in the Israeli occupying 
>>>army. It was reported at the conclusion of the event that SJP received threats 
>>>that attempted to undermine the event. I would hope that these threats would be 
>>>specified, publicized by the DI, investigated by University Police, and 
>>>addressed by University administration.
>>> 
>>>The event was well-attended, including a couple of dozen Zionist students. Their 
>>>questions were straight out of what is called the "hasbara" (Zionist propaganda) 
>>>playbook. These students asserted that Palestinian hatred for Israel is so 
>>>stubborn that nothing that Israel does could possibly do would do anything but 
>>>endanger the safety of Israelis. These assertions were competently addressed by 
>>>the speakers, including a Palestinian student who spoke during the question 
>>>period. The Israeli speaker correctly asserted that the Israeli government is 
>>>the worst terrorist in the Middle East; but actually, it would be more correct 
>>>to say that the U.S. government is the worst terrorist in the region.
>>> 
>>>For the record, it's important to note that students who support and rationalize 
>>>Israeli atrocities are no different than German youth in the 1930s who supported 
>>>the Nazi Party. Yes, they are young. Yes, they are brainwashed. But given the 
>>>information available, these are not valid excuses. These ugly and hateful 
>>>students show us that in 2010, on the "diverse" UI campus, it is still 
>>>acceptable to support perpetrators and blame victims, however obvious that 
>>>distinction is, with all of the racism that that such willful ignorance implies. 
>>>
>>> 
>>>This occurs partly because University administration tacitly equivocates between 
>>>social justice and political evil on issues of war and peace in the Middle East. 
>>>At that level, we all ought to be ashamed of ourselves.
>>> 
>>>David Green
>>>
>>>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>> 
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Peace-discuss mailing list
>>Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Peace-discuss mailing list
>>Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>> 
>
> 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/attachments/20101103/63050fdc/attachment-0001.html>