[Peace-discuss] Fwd: Richard Dawkins Furious At Pope For TyingGodless To Nazis

[Morton K. Brussel]

Carl--

Your points [2] do not address what Dawkins has argued and criticized (in the quoted piece). 
Aside from that, I think Dawkins pointed out that much of the church was, at best, quiet under Nazism, including the Pope, so the fact that a few pastors came out and suffered under the Nazis is neither here nor there. 

As to point [1], I've read most of Dawkins' "The God Illusion". Despite his atheism, I don't like Hitchens, so I don't want him in my camp. As for the other two, I don't know that I have the energy and patience to read them, but perhaps….  Moreover, Eagleton has always struck me as a non-entity. Instead, we might add authors writing for The Humanist magazine. Finally, I' don't like your panel title. Perhaps we could discuss god (or God), the Church and State, in western Europe and the USA. Perhaps the abuses wrought by the church in their sexual mishaps.  Or, we could even bring in Islam (of which I know very little). 

-- Mort

P.S. This seems off topic of peace-discuss.

On Sep 20, 2010, at 2:10 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:

> Mort--
> 
> [1] I take it that you're volunteering for the panel "Ditchkins and the Pope (and God)" that I'm putting together for News from Neptune on UPTV (date TBA).
> 
> I envision four participants - I mean local participants (i.e., not Dawkins, Hitchens, Benedict, & God) - of which you and I are two, discussing the following four texts: 
> 
> --R. Dawkins, "The God Delusion";
> 
> --C. Hitchens, "God is Not Great";
> 
> --P. Benedict, "Caritas in veritate" (his economic manifesto - in English); and
> 
> --T. Eagleton (standing in for God), "Reason, Faith, and Revolution: Reflections on the God
>       Debate."
> 
>       
> 
>       Perhaps you can suggest other discussants, or they may volunteer
>       themselves. 
> 
> 
> [2] Far from being “a despicable outrage,” the paragraph from the pope that "set off Dawkins" contains the following true statements:
> 
> "...a Nazi tyranny ... denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews...; [and] 
> 
> "...Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love [and] opposed the Nazis ... paid for that opposition with their lives..."
> 
> - and the following debatable one (true I think as the Marxists say "in the last instance"):
> 
> "...the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society..."
> 
> But that last after all was what he was trying to convince people of.  Let's discuss it. 
> 
> Regards, Carl
> 
> 
> On 9/19/10 11:25 PM, Morton K. Brussel wrote:
> > So what do you disagree with in
>       Dawkins' reply? Arguments would be
> 
>       > more useful than sneers. Perhaps you should read his book(s)
>       and doff
> 
>       > your parochial hat..
> 
>       > 
> 
>       > His remarks were both apt and appreciated...
> 
>       > 
> 
>       > 
> 
>       > On Sep 19, 2010, at 9:44 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
> 
>       > 
> 
>       >> If anyone took Dawkins seriously before this, I doubt
>       they will
> 
>       >> now.
> 
>       >> 
> 
>       >> For those who are still abject believers, I recommend
>       Terry
> 
>       >> Eagleton, "Reason, Faith, and Revolution: Reflections on
>       the God
> 
>       >> Debate" (Yale UP pbk, 2010).
> 
>       >> 
> 
>       >> If I thought anyone took Ditchkins seriously, I'd propose
>       a
> 
>       >> symposium or panel on the subject. I doubt I'd find many
>       takers.
> 
>       >> 
> 
>       >> Actually, I'd be willing to host it on my UPTV program,
>       News from
> 
>       >> Neptune.
> 
>       >> 
> 
>       >> But I don't think anyone's interested enough for that.
> 
>       >> 
> 
>       >> ...
> 
>       >>> 
> 
>       >>> Richard Dawkins Furious At Pope For Tying Godless To
>       Nazis
> 
>       >>> 
> 
>       >>> Posted in Liberaland by Alan • September 17, 2010,
> 
>       >>> 
> 
>       >>> Pope Benedict’s speech to Queen Elizabeth in England
>       praised how 
> 
>       >>> Britain fought “Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate
>       God from 
> 
>       >>> society,” prompting one of the world’s best known
>       atheists,
> 
>       >>> Richard Dawkins, to proclaim it “a despicable
>       outrage.” What set
> 
>       >>> off Dawkins is this paragraph:
> 
>       >>> 
> 
>       >>> “Even in our own lifetime, we can recall how Britain
>       and her
> 
>       >>> leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to
>       eradicate God
> 
>       >>> from society and denied our common humanity to many,
>       especially
> 
>       >>> the Jews, who were thought unfit to live. I also
>       recall the
> 
>       >>> regime’s attitude to Christian pastors and religious
>       who spoke
> 
>       >>> the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for
>       that opposition
> 
>       >>> with their lives. As we reflect on the sobering
>       lessons of the
> 
>       >>> atheist extremism of the twentieth century, let us
>       never forget
> 
>       >>> how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from
>       public life
> 
>       >>> leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of
>       society and
> 
>       >>> thus to a “reductive vision of the person and his
>       destiny”
> 
>       >>> (Caritas in Veritate, 29).”
> 
>       >>> 
> 
>       >>> Dawkins responds:
> 
>       >>> 
> 
>       >>> Even if Hitler had been an atheist, his political
>       philosophy was
> 
>       >>> not based upon atheism and had no connection with
>       atheism. Hitler
> 
>       >>> was arguably (and by his own account) a Roman
>       Catholic. In any
> 
>       >>> case he enjoyed the open support of many of the most
>       senior
> 
>       >>> catholic clergy in Germany and the less demonstrative
>       support of
> 
>       >>> Pope Pius XII. Even if Hitler had been an atheist (he
>       certainly
> 
>       >>> was not), the rank and file Germans who carried out
>       the attempted
> 
>       >>> extermination of the Jews were Christians, almost to
>       a man:
> 
>       >>> either Catholic or Lutheran, primed to their
>       anti-Semitism by
> 
>       >>> centuries of Catholic propaganda about
>       ‘Christ-killers’ and by
> 
>       >>> Martin Luther’s own seething hatred of the Jews. To
>       mention
> 
>       >>> Ratzinger’s membership of the Hitler Youth might be
>       thought to be
> 
>       >>> fighting dirty, but my feeling is that the gloves are
>       off after
> 
>       >>> this disgraceful paragraph by the pope.
> 
>       >>> 
> 
>       >>> Dawkins is urging a letter-writing campaign to
>       British media in
> 
>       >>> protest, adding:
> 
>       >>> 
> 
>       >>> I am incandescent with rage at the sycophantic BBC
>       coverage, and
> 
>       >>> the sight of British toadies bowing and scraping to
>       this odious
> 
>       >>> man. I thought he was bad before. This puts the lid
>       on it.
> 
>     
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