[Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] Closer Than You Think: Top 15 Things Romney and Obama Agree On
ya'aQov
yaaqovz at gmail.com
Mon Sep 3 01:34:49 UTC 2012
*Jenifer, look what those protest votes got us also: your note below, to us.
*
*
*
*In the final analysis YOU are responsible for the language of what you
write to us; there's a fine line between expressing your opinion and
telling those who go to protests or meetings what to do (implying they
can't think on their feet, need recharging, re-fueling, what have you), **
Ya'aqov*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>wrote:
*
>
> *We did indeed... and look what those pure-hearted protest votes got us
> -- 8 years of Bush, two wars, 2 super-conservative Supremes, Citizens'
> United... just the biggies that come to mind.*
> *[Discussions do NOT belong on Peace, pls do NOT add Peace List back to
> this thread]
>
> --- On Sun, 9/2/12, Gregg Gordon <ggregg79 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> *
>
> *
> From: Gregg Gordon <ggregg79 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Closer Than You Think: Top 15 Things Romney and Obama Agree On
> To: "Luis Damián Reyes Rodríguez" <ldamian21 at gmail.com>, "Germaine Light"
> <lightport at sbcglobal.net>
> Cc: "Chris Goodrow" <c_goodrow at hotmail.com>, "Peace Discuss" <
> peace-discuss at anti-war.net>, "Jenifer Cartwright" <jencart13 at yahoo.com>,
> "ocCUpy" <occupycu at lists.chambana.net>, "Peace" <peace at anti-war.net>, "C.
> G. Estabrook" <cge at shout.net>
> Date: Sunday, September 2, 2012, 6:09 PM
>
> *
> *Didn't we have this conversation 12 years ago?
> *
> **
> *
> *
> *
> ------------------------------
> From: Luis Damián Reyes Rodríguez <ldamian21 at gmail.com>
> To: Germaine Light <lightport at sbcglobal.net>
> Cc: Chris Goodrow <c_goodrow at hotmail.com>; Peace Discuss <
> peace-discuss at anti-war.net>; Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>;
> Gregg Gordon <ggregg79 at yahoo.com>; ocCUpy <occupycu at lists.chambana.net>;
> Peace <peace at anti-war.net>; C. G. Estabrook <cge at shout.net>
> Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2012 4:39 PM
> Subject: Closer Than You Think: Top 15 Things Romney and Obama Agree On
> *
> *
> *
> *Wouldn't it be nice to live in a country where every four years you were
> not told that there is no alternative? (sure, Obama is bad, but look at
> Romney!)
> It is a vicious circle! The only way to get out of it is by breaking it!
> i.e. stop supporting the lesser evil and build something independent from
> Dems and Reps!
> Sure, it will take time... The more urgent it is to start now!
> Here's what folks at the Black Agenda Report have to say:
>
> http://www.blackagendareport.com/content/closer-you-think-top-15-things-romney-and-obama-agree
>
> **Closer Than You Think: Top 15 Things Romney and Obama Agree On*
> *Wed, 08/29/2012 - 13:37 — Bruce A. Dixon*
>
> - *Republicans<http://www.blackagendareport.com/category/us-politics/republicans>|
> *
> - *Democrats<http://www.blackagendareport.com/category/us-politics/democrats>|
> *
> - *2012 presidential campaign*<http://www.blackagendareport.com/category/us-politics/2012-presidential-campaign>
>
> *Printer-friendly version*<http://blackagendareport.com/print/content/closer-you-think-top-15-things-romney-and-obama-agree>
> * *
> *by BAR managing editor Bruce A. Dixon*
> *Republicans and Democrats, like Romney and Obama are of one mind on
> many more things than they disagree about. From war and empire to their
> policies on Big Ag, Big Energy, “clean coal and safe nuclear power,” and
> the war on drugs their areas of agreement are vast and troubling, and
> perhaps far more important than the rhetorical and stylistic differences
> highlighted by US political campaigns.*
> *Closer Than You Think: Top 15 Things Romney and Obama Agree On*
> *by BAR managing editor Bruce A. Dixon*
> *Too much agreement between Republicans and Democrats has always been
> bad news for those at the bottom of America's class and racial totem poles.
> *
> *Back in 1875, Frederick Douglass observed that it took a war among the
> whites to free his people from slavery. What then, he wondered, would an
> era of peace among the whites bring us? He already knew the answer.
> Louisiana had its Colfax Massacre<http://www.knowla.org/entry.php?rec=758>two years earlier. A wave of thousands upon thousands of terroristic
> bombings, shootings, mutilations, murders and threats<http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/reconstruction/40acres/sf_violence.html>had driven African Americans from courthouses, city halls, legislatures,
> from their own farms, businesses and private properties and from the voting
> rolls across the South. They didn't get the vote back for 80 years, and
> they never did get the land back. But none of that mattered because on the
> broad and important questions of those days there was at last peace between
> white Republicans and white Democrats --- squabbles around the edges about
> who'd get elected, but wide agreement on the rules of the game.*
> *Like Douglass, the shallow talking heads who cover the 2012
> presidential campaign on corporate media have noticed out loud the
> remarkable absence of disagreement between Republican and Democratic
> candidates on many matters. They usually mention what the establishment
> likes to call “foreign policy.” But the list of things Republicans and
> Democrat presidential candidates agree on, from coddling Wall Street
> speculators, protecting mortgage fraudsters and corporate wrongdoers to
> preventing Medicare For All to so-called “foreign policy,” “free trade,”
> “the deficit” “clean coal and safe nuclear power” and “entitlement reform,”
> is clearly longer and more important than the few points of mostly race and
> style, upon which they disagree.*
> *
>
> *
> *15*
> *Although unemployment is the highest it's been since the Great
> Depression, the federal government should NOT enact any sort of WPA-style
> program to put millions of people back to work. Under Democrat Franklin
> Roosevelt in the 1930s, Depression-era unemployment was tackled head on by
> direct federal hiring to dig subways, build roads, schools, parks, sewers,
> recreational facilities and public buildings. Oblivious of this history,
> Democrat Barack Obama maintains that only the private sector can or should
> create jobs.*
> *14*
> *Medicare, Medicaid and social security are “entitlements” that need to
> be cut to relieve what they call “the deficit.” Republicans have been on
> record for this since forever, though they claim not to want to mess with
> the Medicare people already over 65 are getting. One of the first acts of
> the Obama presidency was to appoint a bipartisan panel stacked with
> “deficit hawks” like Republican Allan Simpson and Democrat Erskine Bowles
> to recommend raising retirement ages and cutting back Medicaid, Medicare
> and social security, and pass a law directing Congress to have an up or
> down no-amendments vote on its recommendations. Fortunately the “cat food
> commission”, as it was called, was deadlocked and offered none. But Obama
> and top Democrats, most recently House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi
> continue to express their readiness for some kind of “grand compromise”
> with Republicans on this issue.*
> *13*
> *Climate change treaties and negotiations that might lead to them
> should be avoided at all costs. The differences between them are only
> style. Democrats admit that climate change exists and is man-made,
> Republicans say it's a myth. But both ignored the Kyoto protocol and Obama
> like Bush before him, has worked tirelessly to delay, derail and boycott
> any actual talks that might lead to constructive international climate
> change agreements.*
> *12*
> *NAFTA was such a great thing it really should be extended to Central
> and South America and the entire Pacific rim. Again, there are
> differences in style. On the 2008 campaign trail, Obama sometimes mumbled
> about renegotiating parts of NAFTA, and such. But even before the primaries
> were done, press reports had him assuring the Canadian government this was
> only campaign rhetoric, raw meat for the rubes. In four years he has pushed
> NAFTA-like “free trade” corporate rights agreements with South Korea, most
> of Central America and is now secretly hammering out something called the Trans-Pacific
> Partnership Agreement<http://www.citizen.org/more-about-trans-pacific-partnership-agreement>
> .*
> *11*
> *Banksters and Wall Street speculators deserve their bailouts and
> protection from criminal liability, but underwater and foreclosed
> homeowners deserve nothing. Well, maybe not exactly nothing. Republicans
> think underwater homeowners deserve blame for forcing banksters to offer
> millions of fraudulent high-interest loans were then re-sold to investors
> around the world. Democrats think underwater homeowners deserve empty
> promises of help that never quite arrives for most of the foreclosed, the
> about-to-be foreclosed, their families and communities. But both agree on
> free money for banksters and speculators but no moratorium on foreclosures
> and no criminal investigations of mortgage and securities fraud.*
> *10*
> *Palestinians should be occupied, dispossessed and ignored. Iran should
> be starved and threatened from all sides. Cuba should be embargoed, and
> Americans prohibited from going there to see what its people have done in a
> half century free of Yankee rule. Black and brown babies and their
> parents, relatives and neighbors should be bombed with drones in Pakistan,
> Yemen, Somalia and similar places. The politicians and corporate
> commentators have a misleading name for this. They call it “foreign
> policy.” The realistic term for it is global empire.*
> *9*
> *Africa should be militarized, destabilized, plundered and where
> necessary, invaded by proxy armies like those of Rwanda, Ethiopia, Burundi
> or Kenya, or directly by Western air and ground forces, as in Libya. President
> Georgia Bush announced the formation of AFRICOM, the US military command
> for the continent which has officially swallowed all US civilian diplomatic
> presence. But only a black US president, even under the cover of
> “humanitarian war” could have invaded an African nation and openly
> dispatched special forces to Central Africa.*
> *8*
> *US Presidents can kidnap citizens of their own or any nation on earth
> from anyplace on the planet for torture, indefinite imprisonment without
> trial or murder them and neighboring family and bystanders at will. To be
> perfectly fair, there are distinctions between Republicans and Democrats
> here that don't amount to differences. Republicans Cheney and Bush got
> their lawyers to say these things were OK and did them. Democrat Obama got
> Congress to enact “laws” giving these acts a veneer of fake legality,
> something a Republican probably could not have done. *
> *7*
> *Oil and energy companies, and other mega-polluters must be freed to
> drill offshore almost everywhere, and permitted to poison land and
> watersheds with fracking to achieve “energy independence”. The
> Republicans say “drill baby drill” but it seems only Democrats can chill
> out enough supposed “environmentalists” to make this happen. Obama
> campaigned on restricting offshore drilling four years ago, and reversed
> himself just before the BP oil disaster in the Gulf. The White House
> cooperated with BP in lying to the public about the extent of the disaster
> and has shielded BO from paying anything like the value of actual damages
> incurred to livelihoods, human lives and the environment. *
> *6*
> *The FCC should not and must not regulate telecoms to ensure that poor
> and rural communities have access to internet, or to guarantee network
> neutrality. Republicans have always been in favor of digital redlining,
> against network neutrality. Barack Obama claimed on the campaign trail he'd
> take a back seat to nobody in guaranteeing network neutrality. But he
> appointed as FCC chair a man who helped write the infamous
> Telecommunications Act of 1995, which gave away the government-built
> internet backbone to a handful of immensely powerful telecoms like AT&T and
> Comcast, and flatly reversed himself on network neutrality. The Department
> of Justice was forced to stop the ATT-T-Mobile merger by a storm of public
> outrage, but approved the Comcast-NBC deal.*
> *5*
> *Of course there really ARE such things as “clean coal” and “safe
> nuclear energy”. Again these are things Republicans have always pretended
> to believe. At the 2008 Democratic convention Democrat Barack Obama joined
> them, declaring he intended to be the president of “clean coal and safe
> nuclear energy.” Obama is building a wave of 33 nuclear plants across the
> country, the first two in mostly black and poor communities of Georgia and
> South Carolina where leaky existing nukes are causing cancer epidemics. The
> people know these things are myths. But Republican and Democratic
> candidates for office, all the way down to state and county officials seem
> not to.*
> *4*
> *Immigrants must be jailed and deported in record numbers. To be really
> fair, one should note that on this issue Republicans talk a mean game about
> sending them all back and jailing tens or hundreds of thousands along the
> way. But only President Obama has walked the walk, deporting over a million
> immigrants in his term in office, often with little or no due process and
> after housing many for months in atrocious privatized immigration prisons.
> *
> *3*
> *No Medicare For All. Forget about it eliminating the Medicare age
> requirement so that all Americans would qualify.. Republicans never
> wanted Medicare even for seniors, let alone everybody. Six or seven years
> ago Illinois State Senator Obama was telling audiences that if they elected
> Democrats to Congress, the Senate and the White House, they'd get single
> payer health care. But once in office he excluded Medicare for All from the
> proposals on the table, and enacted a national version of Massachusetts
> RomneyCare, requiring everybody to purchase private health insurance or be
> penalized. *
> *2*
> *No minimum wage increases for you, no right to form a union, no right
> to negotiate or strike if you already have a union, and no enforcement or
> reform of existing labor laws. Again, Republicans have always opposed
> minimum wage laws. Obama promised to boost the minimum wage his first two
> years in office, while he still had majorities in the House and Senate. But
> he didn't do this, or pass legislation beefing up the right to organize
> unions, which has been eroded under Democrat and Republican administrations
> alike.*
> *1*
> *The 40 year war on drugs must continue, and even mention of the prison
> state is unthinkable. There are 2.3 million people in US prisons and
> jails today, a per capita total that beats the world. Politicians of both
> parties wag their fingers in multiple directions. But as Michelle Alexander
> points out, if the US prison population were rolled back to say, only 1
> million, the level it was about 1980, this would mean one million jobs, as
> contractors, sheriffs, cops, bailiffs, judges and functionaries of all
> kinds would have to go out and find real jobs. *
> *The rabbit hole goes still deeper. We didn't have to stop at these
> fifteen points of Democrat-Republican agreement, but you get the idea. Just
> as in Frederick Douglass's day, the more Democrats and Republicans agree,
> the worse it is for the rest of us. *
> *There was a time when black America had its own principles, and formed
> the immovable leftmost rock of the American polity. But in the 21st
> century, that rock has been dissolved by a tide of corporate money. With
> the rise of a cohort of black corporate Democrats and a right wing black
> Democrat in the White House there is no longer even any vaguely leftish
> influence on Democratic party politics. The House Progressive Caucus is the
> biggest in Congress, with over seventy members, but is powerless and
> irrelevant. Except for stylistic flourishes, the music they listen to and
> the color of some faces, the differences between Republicans and Democrats
> seem to exist mostly in political marketing campaigns and inside our own
> heads.*
> *Bruce A. Dixon is managing editor at Black Agenda Report, and a member
> of the state committee of the Georgia Green Party. He can be reached via
> this site's contact page, or at bruce.dixon(at)blackagendareport.com.*
> *
>
>
> *
> *On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Germaine Light <lightport at sbcglobal.net<http://mc/compose?to=lightport@sbcglobal.net>
> > wrote:
> *
>
> *I admit I have not been to Occupy demos since last October, but I have
> been to almost every labor protest & event that I possibly can & sometimes
> one has to make choices re limited time. My heart is there with occupy
> still and I am VERY active in this community!*
> *And of course anyone has the right to protest anything! But I think I
> have earned a voice in this conversation!*
> *
> Sent from my iPhone*
> *Germaine *
> *
> On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:05 PM, Chris Goodrow <c_goodrow at hotmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=c_goodrow@hotmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> *
>
> *I'm just curious, but the people who are opposed to the focus of a
> protest? Are these people who actually participate in these protests?*
> *
> *
> *How many civilians died in drone strikes this year? How many Americans
> were targeted as enemy combatants and killed in the past two years?
>
> Chris*
> *(217) 898-5039
> *
> *
> *
> *
> On Sep 1, 2012, at 17:55, "Gregg Gordon" <ggregg79 at yahoo.com<http://mc/compose?to=ggregg79@yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
>
> *
>
> *So how many Americans died in Iraq this week? And how's the missile
> shield in eastern Europe coming (to cite just two significant differences
> with the Bush Administration)?*
> *
> *
> *Look -- I'm not saying give anyone a pass on anything. I'm saying make
> your point strategically and intelligently. It's likely to improve your
> effectiveness. *
> *
> *
> *Frankly, I don't think there's anything a handful of people in C-U are
> going to do in the next two months that will make an iota's difference to
> the outcome of the election or the future of Bradley Manning. I would
> guess 95% of the people who drive by any such demonstration will have no
> idea who Bradley Manning is, and there's nothing you can put on a placard
> that will inform them. It won't even be covered by the local newspaper.
> So in that respect, I don't care, but the larger point is worth
> considering. Do we do these things to fulfill a sense of righteous
> indignation, or are we trying to have an impact on future events?*
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> ------------------------------
> From: C. G. Estabrook <cge at shout.net <http://mc/compose?to=cge@shout.net>>
> To: Gregg Gordon <ggregg79 at yahoo.com<http://mc/compose?to=ggregg79@yahoo.com>>
>
> Cc: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com<http://mc/compose?to=jencart13@yahoo.com>>;
> Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net<http://mc/compose?to=peace-discuss@anti-war.net>>;
> ocCUpy <occupycu at lists.chambana.net<http://mc/compose?to=occupycu@lists.chambana.net>>;
> Peace <peace at anti-war.net <http://mc/compose?to=peace@anti-war.net>>
> Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 10:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [Peace] [OccupyCU] [Peace-discuss] Farmer's Market and
> Demonstration on Saturday; and, another on Sept. 6th for Bradley Manning on
> eve of Obama's speech?
> *
> *
> *
> *It's important to assess how important the difference it makes is. The
> answer seems to be, not much.*
> * *
> *Obama - although he campaigned against them - followed Bush's economic
> and military polices, if in a more brutal and efficient fashion.*
> *
> *
> *That may be some slight reason to vote against him, but it's certainly
> not a reason to support him.*
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *On Sep 1, 2012, at 10:15 AM, Gregg Gordon <ggregg79 at yahoo.com<http://mc/compose?to=ggregg79@yahoo.com>>
> wrote:*
> *
> *
>
> *I find it mind-boggling that anyone who lived through the years
> 2000-2008 really believes "it makes no difference."
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> ------------------------------
> From: C. G. Estabrook <cge at shout.net <http://mc/compose?to=cge@shout.net>>
> To: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com<http://mc/compose?to=jencart13@yahoo.com>>
>
> Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net<http://mc/compose?to=peace-discuss@anti-war.net>>;
> ocCUpy <occupycu at lists.chambana.net<http://mc/compose?to=occupycu@lists.chambana.net>>;
> Peace <peace at anti-war.net <http://mc/compose?to=peace@anti-war.net>>
> Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 10:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [Peace] [OccupyCU] [Peace-discuss] Farmer's Market and
> Demonstration on Saturday; and, another on Sept. 6th for Bradley Manning on
> eve of Obama's speech?
> *
> *
> *
> *I think it's wrong to give Obama a pass on Bradley Manning and hold off
> on condemning his crimes - from the suppression of WikiLeaks to the murders
> of Americans and others - for ostensible fear of a candidate (Romney) whose
> positions on economic and military matters are inherently identical to
> those of the administration. *
> *
> *
> *"Voting for reform-minded candidates should take about five minutes, and
> then we go back to the important work on the ground to change the
> conditions in which the mostly farcical election process proceeds"
> [Chomsky]. --CGE*
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *On Sep 1, 2012, at 1:20 AM, Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com<http://mc/compose?to=jencart13@yahoo.com>>
> wrote:*
> *
> *
>
> *I'm guessing you guys haven't been listening to the Repub Convention
> speeches, but Romney et al are FAR, FAR, FAR worse than Obama et al... So
> how 'bout we save our protests until AFTER the election, and use our energy
> defeating the LOTS WORSE evils??? It won't significantly affect YOUR lives
> if the Dems are defeated, but it will be devastating to MILLIONS across the
> US and the world.
>
> --- On Fri, 8/31/12, Stuart Levy <stuartnlevy at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=stuartnlevy@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> *
>
> *
> From: Stuart Levy <stuartnlevy at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=stuartnlevy@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: [Peace-discuss] Farmer's Market and Demonstration on Saturday;
> and, another on Sept. 6th for Bradley Manning on eve of Obama's speech?
> To: "Peace" <peace at anti-war.net <http://mc/compose?to=peace@anti-war.net>>,
> "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at anti-war.net<http://mc/compose?to=peace-discuss@anti-war.net>>,
> "ocCUpy" <occupycu at lists.chambana.net<http://mc/compose?to=occupycu@lists.chambana.net>
> >
> Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 11:26 AM
>
> *
> *The wars go on despite the weather and so shall we (at least we'll try).
>
> Expect AWARE and CUCPJ at the Farmer's Market tomorrow morning, 8-noon.
>
> And, from 2-4, the AWARE+OccupyCU demonstration will be at its usual
> first-Saturday site,
>
> Main and Neil, downtown Champaign
> 2-4 PM Saturday, Sept. 1st
>
> If it turns into a real downpour, we'll retire somewhere nearby for lunch.
>
>
>
> There's also a nationally-coordinated suggestion for groups to hold
> demonstrations on *Thursday, September 6th*, in support of Bradley Manning
> --
>
> "Show Obama that Bradley Manning is our hero"
>
> Why the 6th? That's the date of Obama's acceptance speech at the DNC.
>
> To make a definite *proposal*, how about:
>
> (proposed) Demonstration in support of accused whistleblower Bradley
> Manning
> 5:00PM Thursday, Sept. 6th
> Urbana Veterans' Memorial
> (that's Broadway and Main, or, the NW corner of the block where the
> county courthouse is)
>
> What do people think? (Could also make sense to complain more broadly
> about Obama's unfulfilled promise as a peace, civil liberties, etc.
> candidate from four years ago.)
>
> If you like the idea *and* think you can be there for at least part of
> 5-6PM, please write back (either to peace-discuss at anti-war.net or to
> occupyCU or to me, but not to the peace list please).
>
> If we have at least, say, five people who believe they can do this, then
> let's go for it. Meanwhile let's consider Sept. 6th as still tentative.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>
> *
>
> *_______________________________________________
> OccupyCU mailing list
> OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net<http://mc/compose?to=OccupyCU@lists.chambana.net>
> http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu
> *
>
> *
> *
> *
> _______________________________________________
> Peace mailing list
> Peace at lists.chambana.net <http://mc/compose?to=Peace@lists.chambana.net>
> http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>
>
> *
>
> *
> *
> *
>
> *
>
> *_______________________________________________
> OccupyCU mailing list
> OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net<http://mc/compose?to=OccupyCU@lists.chambana.net>
> http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu
> *
>
> *_______________________________________________
> OccupyCU mailing list
> OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net<http://mc/compose?to=OccupyCU@lists.chambana.net>
> http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu
> *
>
> *
> _______________________________________________
> OccupyCU mailing list
> OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net<http://mc/compose?to=OccupyCU@lists.chambana.net>
> http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> --
> Damián.
>
> *
> *
>
> *
>
> *
> _______________________________________________
> OccupyCU mailing list
> OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net
> http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu
>
> *
*
*
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