[Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] Save books, because you can't save kids from Obama?
David Johnson
davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net
Sat Jul 13 13:49:02 UTC 2013
Carl,
I don't disagree with your analysis of the refusal of U.S. military soldiers
to fight anymore and the massive protests at home being more significant
then Watergate, however, Watergate did have a tremendous psychological
impact that led to Nixon and Agnew leaving office, members of Nixon's
cabinet going to prison, and the House and Senate committees being formed
and decent ( not as specific as they should have been ) investigations
conducted like the Church Committee investigating the CIA and its illegal
crimes including drug smuggling etc. and the house committee on
assasinations. Not to mention the mood of people in general against the
government and wanting real change for the better. The 1% and the
Intelligence community were definitely on the defensive and running scared.
This is what motivated the Powell memo and although the empire struck back
by organizing and re-grouping during the 1970's, it was still an oppurtunity
IF Labor and other citizen groups would have prepared could have been
minimized in terms of the corporate empire's ultimate success that we are
still living with to this day. They are still on the offensive and we are
still all running around loking for some type of national coordinated
organizing and resistance.
A similar window of oppurtunity also opened up during the Iran Contra
affair, but that was even less of an effort to make the most of it.
The exposure of the 9-11 attacks could be the big one that could help us
take back the initiative. Of course it seems resistance is even less
organized today becasue most of the key organizations that could do the
organizing have been bought off, so in my opinion we need to do our own and
the exposure of 9-11 could be a big enough wind to accomplish this even with
initial small groupings of little sails.
David J.
----- Original Message -----
From: "C. G. Estabrook" <carl at newsfromneptune.com>
To: "David Johnson" <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>
Cc: "Peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>;
<occupycu at lists.chambana.net>
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 7:10 PM
Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] [Peace-discuss] Save books,because you can't save
kids from Obama?
David--
Watergate *was* a drop in the bucket. Accurately described at the time as "a
third-rate burglary," it was actionable only because Nixon had dared use
techniques regularly employed against enemies of the American political
consensus (from Daniel Ellberg to the Black Panthers, left sects, et al.)
against another faction of that consensus, viz., the Democrat party
apparatus. Even Kissinger long before thought that Nixon was at least
half-mad (and therefore dangerous to the interests of the US ruling class),
and that class was glad to take advantage of the opening Nixon provided to
arrange for more competent managers of their interests.
For the public at large, Nixon's dismissal was about Vietnam. Elected twice
on a promise to end the war (1968: "a secret plan"; 1972: "peace is at
hand"), Nixon had to face the revolt of the US conscript army in his second
term (end of the draft; withdrawal of ground troops) and the overwhelming
view of Americans that the war was, as they told pollsters, "fundamentally
wrong and immoral, not a mistake."
I remember Mary McGrory writing at the time that in the American psyche
Nixon was a scapegoat for the war in the biblical sense: our sins - the
murder of 4 million people in Asia - were loaded on him and he was sent into
the desert, and we didn't have to think about Vietnam any more.
And I have a fond memory of arguing the significance of Watergate at the
time with the political columnist Jimmy Breslin, whom I quite liked. When I
suggested it wan't very important, he yelled, "But they were tryin' to steal
the fuckin' country!" I contend that the important people in the story -
those we now call the 1% - had already stolen the fuckin' country and were
just making some rearrangements among their employees.
The ouster of Nixon meant little to the conduct of the war or to US foreign
policy: Kissinger symbolized the continuity. And the murder of not 3,000 but
more than 50,000 American citizens by their own government was a manageable
propaganda problem. Geo. Bush I announced that that had been taken care of
when he said after the Gulf War, "By God, we've kicked the Vietnam syndrome
once and for all!" His son showed it was true.
With Bush (both of them) and Cheney relegated to the ash-heap of history,
any further revelations about their crimes would probably just lead to some
people saying, "I told you so!" - and a rather smaller number saying, "I
guess I was wrong about them." (Most will probably say, "I was too young to
pay much attention..."!)
I'd be glad to hear of a plausible scenario where such a revelation would
make a substantial difference in Obama's ongoing crimes. But I can't think
of one.
Regards, CGE
On Jul 12, 2013, at 2:24 PM, "David Johnson" <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>
wrote:
> Really Carl ?
>
> The difference it would make would be to destroy the entire foundation
> rationale for the " War on Terror " and.....
>
> The murder of 3,000 American citizens by their own government for
> political prpoganda purposes.
>
> You don't think that would make any difference ?
> It would make Watergate look like a drop in a bucket.
>
> David Johnson
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "C. G. Estabrook"
> <carl at newsfromneptune.com>
> To: "Stephen Francis" <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "Peace-discuss List" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>;
> <occupycu at lists.chambana.net>
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 1:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] [Peace-discuss] Save books,because you can't save
> kids from Obama?
>
>
> Suppose it's proven beyond doubt, in a front-page NYT expose this weekend,
> that the 9/11 attacks were directed from VP Cheney's office, with the help
> of the Mossad.
>
> What difference would it make?
>
> Would it alter much at all Americans' ambiguous support for Obama's War on
> Terror? Would it provoke a rush to make Ron Paul president, because of his
> position that all US troops abroad should be brought home? Or would it
> have the effect of the somewhat similar revelation that Iraq's WMD were an
> administration lie? (Essentially nothing.)
>
> I think the latter. --CGE
>
> On Jul 12, 2013, at 7:15 AM, Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> To Chris Goodrow on the 'birther' issue. I'm not a birther. I don't care
>> where Obama was born. The issue is his fraudulent birth certificate,
>> social security number and Selective Service card.
>> Chief Justice Roberts of the US Supreme Court scheduled and held
>> conference hearings on these documents about six months ago. See Supreme
>> Court documents No. 12A606 Title: Edward Noonan, et al., Applicants v.
>> Deborah Bowen, California Secretary of State Docketed: December 13, 2012
>> Lower Ct: Supreme Court of California Case Nos.: (S207078)
>> and from the Israel Science and Technology Website ...Israel Science and
>> Technology, the national database and directory of science and
>> technology-related websites in Israel, has published an article asserting
>> the long-form birth certificate released by the White House is a forged
>> document.
>> http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:hzwiqEiT3CcJ:www.science.co.il/Obama-Birth-Certificate.htm+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
>> The website was created by a former science adviser to Israeli Prime
>> Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel Hanukoglu, Ph.D. Hanukoglu, an
>> award-winning researcher, is a professor of biochemistry and molecular
>> biology in Israel. The professor established the first version of his
>> website during his tenure as Netanyahu’s science adviser. The site has
>> evolved into “the premier science and technology portal for Israel.”
>> Read more at
>> http://www.wnd.com/2012/09/israeli-science-website-obama-birth-certificate-forged/#TAczdwkvPjAjKy40.99
>>
>> And Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court Roy Moore is also now in
>> the frey.
>> http://wonkette.com/514607/alabama-birthers-very-excited-state-supreme-court-justice-roy-moore-will-make-obama-just-go-away
>>
>> I don't agree with any of the ideologies of these people, but they are on
>> to something, and they are very powerful people. Why would they do this
>> and could they do this without convincing evidence.... NO.
>> I rest my case.
>> From: Chris Goodrow <c_goodrow at hotmail.com>
>> To: David Johnson <dlj725 at hughes.net>
>> Cc: Peace-discuss List <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>;
>> "occupycu at lists.chambana.net" <occupycu at lists.chambana.net>
>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 8:37 PM
>> Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] [Peace-discuss] Save books, because you can't
>> save kids from Obama?
>>
>> Dave,
>>
>> While I appreciate the offer, I don't see it as an issue. I also wouldn't
>> go on the radio to discuss with birthers my opinion of that.
>>
>> Here's something I never quite understood. We know two planes hit the
>> World Trade Center buildings. What reason would there be to place
>> detonators in surrounding buildings? Did the actual perpetrators of this
>> feel that two planes flying into the twin towers and one into the
>> Pentagon wouldn't bring enough outrage to the American people to help
>> justify going into Afghanistan or Iraq later with the right amount of
>> propaganda? We would need surrounding buildings to collapse to finally
>> put us over the edge?
>>
>> Oh wait, that's right, a plane didn't fly into the Pentagon. That was a
>> missile, right? Then where did that plane go? Did it just disappear?
>>
>> My point is that not only do I feel I don't need to spend time and energy
>> investigating 9/11, I also don't feel the need to spend time and energy
>> arguing against the conspiracy theory.
>>
>> As far as our government is concerned involving 9/11, if anything, their
>> complicity would be negligence.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> On Jul 11, 2013, at 10:03 PM, "David Johnson" <dlj725 at hughes.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Chris,
>>>
>>> I am having Stephen as a guest on the World Labor Hour a week from this
>>> Saturday ( July 20th ) to specificly talk about who and what the
>>> organization Architects and Engineers for 9-11 Truth is all about.
>>> Would you like to also come on the program to discuss this issue ?
>>>
>>> David Johnson
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Chris Goodrow
>>> To: Stephen Francis
>>> Cc: peace-discuss at anti-war.net ; C. G. Estabrook ; occupycu
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 8:17 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] [Peace-discuss] Save books,because you can't
>>> save kids from Obama?
>>>
>>> I'd like to answer this one. Why is very little attention paid to the
>>> 9/11 Truth movement? Probably because there are already enough people
>>> paying attention to it.
>>>
>>> You claim there are only two possible reasons people would disagree with
>>> this conspiracy theory. Either misinformed or a ulterior motive for
>>> doing so. You left out one other possibility which I feel I fall under.
>>> Maybe we just think it's bunk. For as many people who think this as
>>> fact, there are so many more who do not, many of them architects or
>>> engineers.
>>>
>>> But mostly, I think you give our government far too much credit to be
>>> able to first, pull this off and secondly, not get it leaked. A
>>> government that could pull off something this sophisticated would also
>>> be able to "find" WMDs. That would be a cake walk in comparison.
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 11, 2013, at 7:44 AM, "Stephen Francis" <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'll go out on a limb here and defend Carl Estabrook to a certain
>>>> degree. Why is it that certain people can get so disturbed by a
>>>> 'library' story and then not participate in any sort of local action
>>>> involving national issues such as fracking, jails-for-profit,
>>>> manufactured wars. It can be likened to CNN's calculated fixation on
>>>> George Zimmerman. But this is too harsh because I don't know enough
>>>> about the individuals who are so exited about the 'library' issue..so
>>>> I'll back off of that. I agree we shouldn't disparage them. I will
>>>> not only defend Carl but take it one more step and ask why there is
>>>> very little attention paid to the 9/11 Truth movement.
>>>> There is more than ample proof that 9/11 was an inside job. Anyone who
>>>> disagrees with this has not researched or have an agenda to suppress
>>>> it. To me it is an effective litmus test to judge the real intentions
>>>> of a so called peace activist. There are very powerful forces in the
>>>> media and government who want to suppress the 9/11 Truth movement and
>>>> an effective way is to distract via Zimmerman or other 'stories' that
>>>> well up emotions.
>>>> The Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth.org is initiating a
>>>> $300,000 world wide campaign to raise awareness. AE911Truth is
>>>> comprised of 2000 professional architects and engineers and over 17000
>>>> supporters who prove with the laws of physics that three WTC towers
>>>> were intentionally demolished. A certain middle eastern country does
>>>> not want this information known.
>>>>
>>>> From: Stuart Levy <stuartnlevy at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Rickman, Aimee N" <arickman at illinois.edu>; C. G. Estabrook
>>>> <carl at newsfromneptune.com>; "peace-discuss at anti-war.net"
>>>> <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
>>>> Cc: occupycu <occupyCU at lists.chambana.net>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 2:34 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] [Peace-discuss] Save books, because you can't
>>>> save kids from Obama?
>>>>
>>>> Carl, and all,
>>>>
>>>> It's 'way easier for people to mobilize on issues that are seen as
>>>> affecting them directly. If more of us had relatives in AF, PK, IQ,
>>>> Yemen, etc., then more anti-war events these days might fill rooms,
>>>> too. But to most people in the US, war and peace feel like pretty
>>>> remote issues - and intractable ones.
>>>>
>>>> Of course not everyone feels that way. You may remember Aimee as the
>>>> one who led a bunch of us in demonstrating against, and publicly
>>>> questioning, a champion of the military-industrial complex whom the U
>>>> of
>>>> I recently invited to speak on the "public good" (!) - Norman
>>>> Augustine,
>>>> ex-head of Lockheed Martin.
>>>>
>>>> If we want to see an anti-war movement that is as effective in
>>>> organizing people as other local activists have been in organizing them
>>>> over libraries, schools, and jails, then we have to find a way to make
>>>> distant, ever-more-secret wars seem immediate and personal - and to
>>>> make
>>>> them seem other than inevitable. (Remember the woman who, at a recent
>>>> demonstration, commented that "no one goes to war because they *want*
>>>> to.")
>>>>
>>>> There's no need to disparage local democratic action because we haven't
>>>> figured out how to do that.
>>>>
>>>> Stuart
>
>
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