[Peace-discuss] Organize! - Carolyn Raffensperger on Justice

Sun Jul 14 19:43:51 UTC 2013

Several comments on this -

   - We might feel entitled to ask that question, but what is the 
consequence if we ask it selectively about some verdicts and not 
others?  What if we ask it about the cases that aren't even brought 
(like that of the killing of Kiwane Carrington, or the battering of 
Brian Chesley or so many others)?

    - Karen and I recently heard Julia Rietz tell us of the non-charging 
of one of three teenagers involved in a minor robbery, on the grounds 
that one of the teenagers had a recommendation from her school 
principal, or something like that.   She was proud to grant leniency 
based on the expectation that that child promised a better future and 
therefore didn't deserve punishment.    What does that mean for the 
others, whose future was dismissed - based on what? - as not so 
promising, and who did get charged?   It's a minor case, but reminds us 
how pervasive bias is in what we might imagine to be a dispassionate 
process involving evidence, facts, law.

      Leniency may be laudable, but where it exists, so does its 
opposite.   We read this very week of a 20-year sentence for a Florida 
woman, defending herself against her husband, who fired a gun - and not 
at him.  No one was hurt.    Her life, which he had threatened, was 
saved.   Both cases followed legal processes, but can you look at them 
side by side and see justice being done?

   - If all we look at is the result of some legal process, then we are 
letting that process determine which questions are legitimate to ask.

   - The law is a blunt instrument.   God help us if we expect that all 
justice in our society will flow from the operation of the legal system.


     Stuart


On 7/14/13 2:00 PM, Carl G. Estabrook wrote:
> Don't we want verdicts to be technically correct, even while we're removing injustice from the society?
>
>
> On Jul 14, 2013, at 1:53 PM, Stuart Levy <stuartnlevy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> (removing peace at anti-war.net from the Cc list - others please do so, too.)
>>
>> The admirable Carolyn Raffensperger, environmentalist and lawyer, writes about justice -
>>
>>     [...] Serving as a juror (along with a dream about all the animals of the world) made me decide to become a lawyer. The realm of Justice is my land, my quest, my journey. The vast difference between the Zimmerman court room and Justice is a travesty. We have a body of law in this country that prevents justice. I am on fire.
>>
>> someone asks, with respect to the Zimmerman case, "Would you say the verdict was technically correct but morally reprehensible?"
>>
>> and Raffensperger responds:
>>
>> A technically correct verdict that is morally reprehensible is not correct in any Just sense. I do not believe in technically correct verdicts that destroy the fabric of justice.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/14/13 1:25 PM, milogt at aol.com wrote:
>>> A young kid did not make it home alive because of Zimmerman.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu>
>>> To: E. Wayne Johnson 朱 稳森 <ewj at pigsqq.org>
>>> Cc: Rachel Storm <rachelstrm at gmail.com>; Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; peace <peace at anti-war.net>
>>> Sent: Sun, Jul 14, 2013 12:54 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Organize!
>>>
>>> And two other responses (from friends):
>>>
>>>    "  Zimmerman had no cause to confront Martin, and the
>>> police responder at 911 advised him not to.  But he got
>>> out of his car to do it.  Manslaughter resulted."
>>>
>>> "Racism lives.   If a black killed a white under similar circumstances the black would be guilty."
>>>
>>> --mkb
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 14, 2013, at 10:31 AM, E. Wayne Johnson 朱稳森 wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Martin/Zimmerman incident is not like the
>>>> Champaign Police shootings of young black men.
>>>>
>>>> Zimmerman may be an asshole or not.  I am not sure.
>>>> Most but not all cops and wannabee cops are
>>>> indeed quasi-assholes.  Not all.
>>>>
>>>> But clearly Zimmerman was attacked, and on that basis he
>>>> has been set free, because of the self-defense argument.
>>>> The cause of the dispute betwen Martin and Zimmerman
>>>> becomes irrelevant when Zimmerman is attacked.
>>>>
>>>> It's not like Zimmerman just pulled out his gun and
>>>> Oba-nam Style executed him because he was wearing a hoodie.
>>>> The law permits people to have encounters and disagreement.
>>>> When it erupts into physical violence particularly life-threatening
>>>> violence, then a line is crossed.  The situation was
>>>> examined very clearly.
>>>>
>>>> Justice my ass.
>>>> It's not justice that they are crying for.
>>>> It's blood.
>>>> They want an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth
>>>> They want blood for bloodshed.
>>>>
>>>> Well, actually what they want is Money.
>>>>
>>>> But since there isn't any money available,
>>>> they'll settle for a few pints of blood,
>>>> and several ounces of testicular flesh if that
>>>> becomes available.
>>>>
>>>> It is really a disgusting distraction for a noble movement
>>>> like Occupy! to get down and grub for cooties
>>>> with the blood-lust crowd.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 07/14/13 22:02, Karen Aram wrote:
>>>>> Rachel
>>>>>   
>>>>> After today's AWARE meeting at 5:00, I will be attending the protest, bringing a neighbor as well.
>>>>> Trayvon Marvin represents the many young black men from Emmet Till, Jimmie Lee Jackson, Robert Hall etc., etc. murdered because of their race, with the perpetrators so obviously being acquitted by unjust laws and or decisions.
>>>>>   
>>>>> Karen Aram
>>>>>   
>>>>> From: rachelstrm at gmail.com
>>>>> Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 03:51:39 -0500
>>>>> To: sdas-current at googlegroups.com; sdas-list at googlegroups.com; occupyCU at lists.chambana.net; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; peace at anti-war.net
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Organize!
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey folks---If anyone has heard of another demo being planned, I'm happy to send notices out, cancel this one, and redirect people there. I've contacted a number of African-American led organizations in town and can't seem to tell if something is already in the works. Either way, I'm happy to help try and get the word out and then redirect if need be.
>>>>>
>>>>> Okay, here's what I got to start. https://www.facebook.com/events/206857249471575/?context=create
>>>>>
>>>>> Please forward widely.
>>>>>
>>>>> No Justice, No Peace x Protest the Verdict
>>>>> Sunday, July 14th, 2013 | 6pm-8pm
>>>>> Douglass Park | 512 E. Grove St. Champaign
>>>>> "George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch volunteer who fatally shot Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager, igniting a national debate on racial profiling and                               civil rights, was found not guilty late Saturday night of second-degree murder." We will stand together in Champaign-Urbana to demand accountability, to stand against racial injustice, and to protest the verdict that proved the injustice of the system. We stand with Trayvon’s family and we know that we are called to act---to fight for civil rights and for the removal of Stand Your Ground laws in every state, and we will not rest until racial profiling in all its forms is outlawed. Today we mourn, but tomorrow we organize. #blacklivesmatter
>>>>>
>>>>> Bring your friends, your family, your children, your neighbors. We stand together as a community--all of us. Art, protest signs, candles, and messages of outrage/hope/love/solidarity are encouraged.
>>>>> Share on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/events/206857249471575/?context=create
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 2:36 AM, Rachel Storm <rachelstrm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I think we need an emergency demonstration tomorrow in response to the Zimmerman verdict to show that Urbana community members/activists/folks in solidarity do not stand for this outrageous demonstration of injustice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can we plan to meet somewhere very public tomorrow (Sunday) at 6pm-ish?
>>>>>
>>>>> WHERE?
>>>>>
>>>>> Rachel
>>>>>