[Peace-discuss] [sftalk] [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11 Truth Conference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
James Fetzer
jfetzer at d.umn.edu
Sat Sep 21 02:57:58 UTC 2013
Carl,
I have 70 or more articles on Veterans Today, at least a dozen of which are
on 9/11:
http://www.veteranstoday.com/author/fetzer/
I have over 600 two-hour interviews for my radio program, dozens of which
are on 9/11:
http://radiofetzer.blogspot.com
My academic vita can be found at http://www.d.umn.edu/~jfetzer/
Check out who I am and make up you own mind. But thanks for asking. Best
wishes,
http://www.veteranstoday.com/author/fetzer/
On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 8:04 PM, Carl G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>wrote:
> The official story (the US is fighting terrorism/promoting freedom and
> democracy, etc.) is a tissue of lies designed to convince the US populace
> that Obama's terrorism should continue - and, as we've seen, it's wearing
> thin.
>
> US citizens need to be awakened to the real reasons for US imperial war -
> the economic and geopolitical benefits that accrue to the 1%.
>
> Note "On Western Terrorism: From Hiroshima to Drone Warfare," by Noam
> Chomsky and Andre Vltchek, published this week by Pluto Press - a good
> corrective to the official story.
>
>
> On Sep 20, 2013, at 7:34 PM, "E. Wayne Johnson 朱稳森" <ewj at pigsqq.org>
> wrote:
>
> I think that poking holes in the official story has benefits,
> and particularly now that public opinion is shifted due to the
> Snowden affair and the Syria debacle and the declining economic
> situation and the collapsing of support for the Obamacare theft.
>
> There are a lot of people not yet woke up about things.
>
>
>
> On 09/21/13 8:00, Brussel, Morton K wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, the official story also has many holes: it was
> unsatisfactory. The composition of the investigating panel didn't help.
> One does not have to believe in a grand conspiracy, but a small conspiracy
> hiding information which should have been revealed is not implausible. Much
> still lies in the dark. (Why were the Saudis flown out so quickly?) That is
> why continual questioning is useful in my view.
>
> --mkb
>
> On Sep 20, 2013, at 11:29 AM, Ricky Baldwin wrote:
>
> I haven't read Fetzer's book on the evolution of intelligence, which
> does interesting, but if I have read Chomsky's writings on the Kennedy
> assassination and 9/11, as well as a decent amount about Chomsky's
> linguistics, and I have to say I think Fetzer mischaracterizes Chomky's
> arguments badly.
>
> ...although not as badly as the offhand remark by Wayne below that Chomsky
> supposedly seems to support 'big government.' And you can't really talk
> about an idea unless you have a fair representation of it.
>
> Just for a brief example, Chomsky argues that US policy was fairly
> consistent on some major concerns before, during, and after the Kennedy
> Administration. Fetzer points to what Kennedy may have been going to do.
> Think about the difference. Ultimately, of course, I do not know what
> happened to Kennedy in 1963 for sure, but Chomsky makes a compelling case
> and not just about the supposed effect on policy. I'm not going through it
> all here. You can read it for yourself. Fetzer's comment at the end of
> this "rabbit hole" interview is a good one - he encourages people to find
> out what's going on for themselves, as does Chomsky. They also both
> encourage critical thinking, which is needed in this thread.
>
> Another important argument worth mentioning, though, about some of this
> type of what are generally known as 'conspiracy' theories - although Fetzer
> is correct that the official story about who brought down the Twin Towers
> is also a conspiracy, in fact - is the number of people who would be needed
> to keep it quiet and running smoothly. Andrew O Baoill mentions it below.
>
> The number of people who would have to be involved in keeping quiet the
> alleged faking of the moonshots is astronomical (no pun intended).
> But more importantly, the number of people Fetzer describes as keeping
> quiet about 9/11 is pretty incredible, too. First would the planning and
> execution of such an act - a hoax, mind you, on a scale that has never
> before been attempted as far as we know (and much smaller ones, like the
> Gulf of Tonkin and the weapons factory/baby formula destroyed by US cruise
> missile attack, have been found out). Such an undertaking would require an
> extensive network of conspirators in various part of the world just to get
> certain individuals on the planes, create phone conversations that could
> be intercepted, etc., hijack the planes and make it through various levels
> of security, and either load huge amounts of explosives and such into the
> towers past security (or with their collaboration, too?) or develope a
> theoretical version of nanothermite which includes unknown stuff at the
> atomic level or use an unknown material or keep all kinds of super weapons
> quiet. Such a thing could be just possible, but no good evidence of it
> exists, and since it's a pretty big claim, we'd want some pretty good
> evidence. There's an awful lot of speculation here mixed in with the
> questions about the official story.
>
> Everything would have to come off pretty much without a hitch, too,
> which defies experience with so many previous schemes that it's hard to
> even see how anyone could buy it. (The official story, by contrast, does
> include the ordinary human error we have come to expect. The third plane
> was diverted the hijackers couldn't control the passengers, a couple calls
> got out, fighters scrambled but didn't know where to go, etc.)
>
> Fetzer also claims in the "rabbit hole' interview that any structural or
> mechanical engineer with any training to speak of, or words to that effect,
> should know that the official account can't be even remotely correct - and
> that they are virtually ALL (thousands of people) keeping quiet because
> they are afraid they'll lose government contracts and the like. The
> 'truthers' are alway saying the official story is "not possible." Well, so
> was flight, breaking the sound barrier, and so on. Maybe it is, maybe it
> isn't. But which story is more feasible, the official story that a small
> conspiracy was able to crash three planes - two into their intended targets
> - and destroy big buildings and kill lots of people, or a much much larger
> conspiracy was able to not only do all that as well as fake such an event
> in plain view of the entire world, with the addition of engineering
> whatever is actually supposed to have brought the towers down?
>
> Given how many spy operations have been exposed recently - British spying
> on Belgian phones in the news today, reporters hacking famous people's
> phones, all the way back to Watergate and before - it seems hard to believe
> that there wouldn't be a squealer or just a little hard evidence of some of
> these things. OK, that's just a really big pile of questions, not proof
> that Fetzer's wrong. But for my 2c what he and the 9/11 'truthers' are
> asking us to believe is a lot bigger with a lot less evidence than the
> official story. That leaves me, anticlimatically, with the official
> story. We all saw it on TV. It sure looked like what the officials tell
> us. I read and watch Youtube to get what the 'truthers' say, and it just
> isn't good enough.
>
> Absent something better than what I've seen so far, I'd have to include
> the 'truther' movement with the 'birther' movement that is
> severely under-convincing.
>
> Ricky Baldwin
>
>
> "Speak your mind, even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn
>
> *From:* James Fetzer <jfetzer at d.umn.edu>
> *To:* E. Wayne Johnson 朱稳森 <ewj at pigsqq.org>
> *Cc:* Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>; "andrew at funferal.org" <
> andrew at funferal.org>; "sftalk at yahoogroups.com" <sftalk at yahoogroups.com>; "
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>;
> David Gehrig <david-cu at nukulele.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2013 11:37 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] [sftalk] [OccupyCU] News Gazette article
> on 9/11 Truth Conference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
> **
> It actually very simple. I am interested in evidence-based history.
> I resent the lies and the lying liars who feed them to the public,
> where they are aided and abetted by many exactly like Gehrig.
>
> *Fetzer on Chomsky*: Linguistics & 9/11 - *YouTube*<http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D2gFB4VjcmJw&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CBsQtwIwAA&sig2=Y3d6Ng9d6rzMZJhpTO7D3g&usg=AFQjCNGem6eKja7dt5Kg7fN7bpzhbDc48w>
> ► 7:15
> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D2gFB4VjcmJw&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CBwQuAIwAFAB&sig2=Y3d6Ng9d6rzMZJhpTO7D3g&usg=AFQjCNGem6eKja7dt5Kg7fN7bpzhbDc48w>
> www.*youtube*.com/watch?v=2gFB4VjcmJwAug 2, 2007 - 7 min - Uploaded by
> Yoryevrah
> James H. *Fetzer*, prof. of philosophy (U.of Minnesota, Duluth, ret.),
> critiques Noam *Chomsky's* *...* Dr. Jim *Fetzer*/ Noam *Chomsky's* faulty
> LINGUISTICS *...* - *YouTube*<http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DWKKDmuqMOaA&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CCAQtwIwAQ&sig2=ei2yazg-wnPPI_iUwo63kA&usg=AFQjCNFdupSrkUFN1s3Ft1sIY29AmgrGfA>
> ► 27:21
> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DWKKDmuqMOaA&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CCEQuAIwAVAB&sig2=ei2yazg-wnPPI_iUwo63kA&usg=AFQjCNFdupSrkUFN1s3Ft1sIY29AmgrGfA>
> www.*youtube*.com/watch?v=WKKDmuqMOaAApr 27, 2007 - 27 min - Uploaded by
> paulagloria
> Noam *Chomsky* has let down many truth activists and given clear
> indication of working with *...
>
> *
> ****
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 10:44 PM, "E. Wayne Johnson 朱稳森" <ewj at pigsqq.org>wrote:
> **
>
> Mr. Gehrig, like his idol and mentor** Mr. ne' Heidler/Schickelgruber,**is a really nice guy actually,
> ** just poorly understood as such.** **It is not appropriate to
> generalize from Gehrig** and make somebody else's Kampf our own kampfire.*
> * **But-** **The sinking of the Maine.** The Kennedy assassination(s).**The Gulf of Tonkin incident.
> ** The murder of MLKJr.** The various nefarious acts of the CIA** The
> 9/11 questions.** **etc., etc., etc.** **Mother, should I trust the
> Government?** ** Chomsky et al seem to want better Government.** **Some
> of us think that no Government at all would be better,** but it seems
> that Men are not ready for that. ****People like Fetzer do serve a useful
> function in the Society.** They throw out a net and get many fishes, some
> good some bad.** It's not up to veebleFetzer to sort them out. That's up
> to** you the reader.** **Mr. Francis has seen the Government at some of
> its worst,** up close, and personal-like.** It's reasonable for him to
> mistrust it.** **The mime of disease in the amerikan society is something*
> * like the persistent infection produced by Pestiviruses. **The host
> cant quite get pissed off enough to get rid of the **infection, and the
> bug doesnt kill the host. The host** gives birth to diseased and
> deformed and weakened offspring** a percentage of which become
> persistently infected and maintain** the infection through generations.**
> **Somehow the amerikan society gains various benefits from the memes**and clings to the them, even defends the virus from threats.
> ********On 09/20/13 10:52, Stephen Francis wrote:
>
> You've confirmed my point by making light of it...you have no idea what
> those experiences bring to a person.
> **
> *From:* David Gehrig mailto:david-cu at nukulele.org<david-cu at nukulele.org>
> *To:* Stephen Francis mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com<stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* mailto:sftalk at yahoogroups.com <sftalk at yahoogroups.com>
> mailto:sftalk at yahoogroups.com <sftalk at yahoogroups.com>;
> mailto:andrew at funferal.org <andrew at funferal.org>
> mailto:andrew at funferal.org <andrew at funferal.org>;
> mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>;
> Jim Fetzer mailto:jfetzer at d.umn.edu <jfetzer at d.umn.edu>
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2013 7:07 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [sftalk] [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11 Truth
> Conference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
> **
> What's disgraceful, Fetzer, is you.
> **
> I'd like to believe that at some point Steve will figure out why. But as
> long as you keep him barking-mad up the wrong tree, I don't expect it.
> **
> Also, by the way, Dr O-boyo, can I shoot at you? That will render all of
> your opinions correct, apparently. Cheaper than a second PhD!
> **@%<
> **On Sep 19, 2013, at 8:52 PM, Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:** **
>
> From James Fetzer Ph.D.** **
> It is disgraceful to see an academician abuse his position to curtail**
> debate on the most important event of the 21st C. by "installing**
> filters". He dismisses my research WITHOUT EVEN STUDYING**
> THE EVIDENCE. I am quite confident he has not read any of the** links
> that I have provided about 9/11 or Sandy Hook or the Boston** bombing,
> for example. By embracing the moon landings without**
> considering the arguments, he is embracing the occurrence of a** series
> of events that are neither physically nor aerodynamically**possible--very much as THE 9/11 COMMISSION REPORT was
> ** based upon any number of additional impossibilities. This is the**easy way out: avoid the evidence and the issues at all cost since
> ** they may show that beliefs he has entertained are indefensible.** **
> He does not even appreciate the hypocrisy in attacking me without**bothering to study any of my arguments on any of these questions.
> ** I am overwhelmed with contempt for the contemptible fashion in** which
> he obviates the standards of reason and rationality by the ** expedient
> of cutting off discussion and debate and adopting the** ostrich policy.
> When there is too much heat, he shuts down the** kitchen. The man is a
> perfect example of an intellectual bully ** and a coward who abuses his
> position to give a false impression** of principle, when he is
> demonstrating that he possesses none.** And that is manifest in his
> infatuation with Noam Chomsky, where ** he seems oblivious of his
> mentor's gross intellectual deficiencies:**
> *Fetzer on Chomsky*: Linguistics & 9/11 - *YouTube*<http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D2gFB4VjcmJw&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CBsQtwIwAA&sig2=Y3d6Ng9d6rzMZJhpTO7D3g&usg=AFQjCNGem6eKja7dt5Kg7fN7bpzhbDc48w>
> ► 7:15
> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D2gFB4VjcmJw&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CBwQuAIwAFAB&sig2=Y3d6Ng9d6rzMZJhpTO7D3g&usg=AFQjCNGem6eKja7dt5Kg7fN7bpzhbDc48w>
> www.*youtube*.com/watch?v=2gFB4VjcmJwAug 2, 2007 - 7 min - Uploaded by
> Yoryevrah
> James H. *Fetzer*, prof. of philosophy (U.of Minnesota, Duluth, ret.),
> critiques Noam *Chomsky's* *...* Dr. Jim *Fetzer*/ Noam *Chomsky's* faulty
> LINGUISTICS *...* - *YouTube*<http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DWKKDmuqMOaA&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CCAQtwIwAQ&sig2=ei2yazg-wnPPI_iUwo63kA&usg=AFQjCNFdupSrkUFN1s3Ft1sIY29AmgrGfA>
> ► 27:21
> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DWKKDmuqMOaA&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CCEQuAIwAVAB&sig2=ei2yazg-wnPPI_iUwo63kA&usg=AFQjCNFdupSrkUFN1s3Ft1sIY29AmgrGfA>
> www.*youtube*.com/watch?v=WKKDmuqMOaAApr 27, 2007 - 27 min - Uploaded by
> paulagloria
> Noam *Chomsky* has let down many truth activists and given clear
> indication of working with *...
>
> *
> **
> Jim** **
> James H. Fetzer, Ph.D.** McKnight Professor Emeritus** University of
> Minnesota Duluth**
> http://www.d.umn.edu/~jfetzer
> **
> *From:* Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>
> *To:* "sftalk at yahoogroups.com" <sftalk at yahoogroups.com>
> *Cc:* "david-cu at nukulele.org" <david-cu at nukulele.org>; "
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; Jim
> Fetzer <jfetzer at d.umn.edu>
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2013 5:34 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [sftalk] [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11 Truth
> Conference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
> **
>
> You (Mr. Ó Baoill) speak so eloquently in your lofty address to the
> issues of the day. You and all your fellow Chomskyites speak the same
> language in that your really not communicating ideas but rather reinforcing
> each others Chomskyism. It must feel good and you are all so proud of
> yourselves as you flitter amongst prose that glitters in the eye. You've
> probably never been handcuffed and thrown down on the floor of a cage
> inside a dangerous prison because of your glittery flittery. You've never
> been shot at with rifles held by moronic souls who knew no better than to
> do what their daddy told em. You've never been hungry or felt the mad
> pounding in your chest as your heartbeat races knowing that your next word
> will mean freedom or jail. You've never seen the look on a grown man's
> face looking into the sentence on a official looking piece of paper that
> says Vietnam is your next home. You've never heard the screams of
> nightmares of groan men as they fight back the demons of heroin. Please
> continue with your Chomsky bedside manner and keep your eyes in the clouds
> of academic loft, because we know where the comfort of your words come
> from.
> *From:* Dr Andrew Ó Baoill <andrew at funferal.org>
> *To:* sftalk at yahoogroups.com
> *Cc:* david-cu at nukulele.org; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Jim Fetzer
> <jfetzer at d.umn.edu>
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2013 4:14 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [sftalk] [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11 Truth
> Conference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
> **
>
> I was travelling, so my response on this is delayed.
> **
> I've kept out of Truther threads for a variety of reasons, but I feel
> compelled to interject, in case silence be taken as implying consent and
> complicity.** **On 9/11 Trutherism, I've largely agreed with Chomsky's
> analysis - that the implication of a 'massive conspiracy' has too many
> moving parts to pass Occam's razor, and that in any event, it distracts
> from actually useful politics, as it heads down a rabbit hole.
> (Incidentally, I understand that there will be responses claiming that the
> the Truthers are agnostic on the question of a central conspiracy, that
> it's a grouping of analyses, etc. I'm not going to try to get into any of
> that because, frankly, I have neither the time nor interest. Hence, my
> silence until now, like, I suspect, many if my comrades on the list.)
> **However, with this latest thread we move into both offensive and
> ridiculous territory.** **Ridiculous first: Stephen says that James 'Jim'
> Fetzer represents his views on every issue he can think of. Fetzer's
> summary of his own beliefs include a claim that Sandy Hook was staged to
> garner support for gun control. That's actually more offensive than
> ridiculous. I trust the sane members of this list don't need me to
> elaborate. On a lighter note Fetzer, bless his soul, clings to his belief
> that the moon landings were staged. That one I did laugh at.** **I'll
> jump to my main point: I'm implementing filters to block and 'send to
> trash' all future mail from Mr. Francis (and, pre-emptively, Mr. Fetzer).
> It saps my time, energy, and the value I get from the Socialist Forum
> lists. I suspect that others have done similarly. This mail is not an
> attempt or offer to enter into dialogue with Francis or his like. The
> method of debate of professed generalized conspiracy theorists fails
> several of the basic rules of debate, including the building of trust with
> other participants, a desire to reach consensus with those of disparate
> approaches, and a rational approach to argument.** **I feel it important,
> though, to first go on record, so Mr. Francis and his ilk not be able read
> silence as acceptance. ** **Fetzer's Holocaust 'revisionism' is
> anti-semitic (and, more broadly, anti-humanist), in that it distracts from
> central questions about the totalizing violence and hatred that drove the
> 'final solution' with evasive and quibbling side issues that provide a nod
> and a wink to fellow anti-semites, while leaving just enough room for
> deniability. Fetzer is gracious enough to acknowledge 'abuse' by the Nazis,
> but notably goes no further - and this is his own defense to a critical
> audience. There are some attempts to muddy the water, to mimic actual
> scholarship that seeks to add nuance and critical analysis to narratives of
> the period, but to my mind, after viewing Fetzer's own summary of his
> approach, the distinction is clear. In addition, as Belden helpfully noted,
> it is possible (and, I'd suggest, important) to distinguish criticism of
> Israel from anti-semitism.
> **
> I know there are those on this list whose families have directly suffered
> in the Holocaust. My own son's family lost many members - and as genocides
> are intended to, those who survived were displaced and lost any connection
> to the land that had been their home. I cannot help but wonder - briefly,
> but not enough to desire a response from Fetzer/Francis/etc. - if these
> 'revisionists' would apply a similar logic to the Irish experience, and
> seek to erase the violence that we were subjected to through the colonial
> experience.
> **
> Andrew
> **
> Dr. Andrew Ó Baoill** andrew at funferal.org
> **
> On 17 MFómh 2013, at 23:20, Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> **
>
>
> **
> I'm passing Jim's response to David Gehrig on to the group(s)...
> and would like to reiterate my enthusiastic support for James Fetzer. I
> have much to learn from him. He and I are on the same page every issue
> that I can think of.
> I again take exception to remarks like the one below:
> "Steve Francis, by his selection of Jim Fetzer and Kevin Barrett, has
> made it clear that he has aligned himself with the Jew-hating wing of
> trooferdom."
> I reiterate my support for the following JEWISH organizations.
> NKUSA <http://www.nkusa.org/>, JewsNotZionists<http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/satmar.htm>
> , JewsAgainstZion <http://www.inminds.co.uk/jews-against-zionism.html>,
> JewsAgainstZionism <http://rense.com/general54/thank.htm>, International
> Jewish AntiZionist Network <http://www.ijsn.net/home/>, American Jews
> Solidarity Against Zionism<https://www.facebook.com/pages/American-Jews-Solidarity-Against-Zionism/318506794911703>
> , Rabbis Against Zionism <http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=762>,
> IsraelVersusJudaism <http://www.israelversusjudaism.org/>. These people
> created their organizations for a specific reason of which they are highly
> dedicated. **
> See Jim's response below:
> *From:* James Fetzer <jfetzer at d.umn.edu>
> *To:* Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 17, 2013 7:34 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11 Truth Conference,
> Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
> **
> Steve,
> **
> Kindly post this as my response to the completely unwarranted claims made
> by:
>
> David Gehrig <david-cu at nukulele.org> appears to be the epitome of
> arrogance
> driven by ignorance. In his completely gratuitous dismissal of my
> positions, which
> he supports exclusively by a very odd quote taken out of context. Does
> he not
> know that the figure 6,000,000 was being bandied about as early as 1890 and
> has
> 'a theological or ideological origin. It has nothing to do with the
> history of WWII,
> including of course the Holocaust, which he may not realized would not
> take place
> for another 40 or 50 years. But spare me more about the Holocaust!
>
> I have spelled out my position on a very wide range of complex and
> controversial
> subjects, about which it appears he knows nothing at all. If he would
> like to show
> me wrong, THEN SHOW ME WRONG. Pick the subject on which he thinks I am
> most likely to be wrong. Explain my position and why I hold it, then
> spell out what
> he thinks I have wrong and why. I find it completely insulting
> to everyone whom he
> addresses that he can make pompous pronouncements with no proof!
>
> Here is a thumbnail sketch of my positions on issues that have arisen on
> the thread:
>
> 9/11 was not committed by 19 Islamic terrorists who hijacked four
> commercial airliners and outfoxed the most sophisticated air-defense system
> in the world;
> the Wellstone plane crash was not an accident, as the NTSB reported, but
> was very carefully contrived for the GOP to take control of the Senate and
> launch wars;
> the Holocaust has been exaggerated for political reasons, including war
> crimes by the allies in the form of collective punishment of German cities,
> which they needed to conceal;
> JFK was hit four times--in the throat from in front, in the back from
> behind, and twice in the head (from behind and from the right-front)--where
> Lee Oswald didn't do it;
> the moon landing was easier to pull off than most realize, as the film,
> "Capricorn I", releals, where Stanly Kubrick seems to have faked the
> landings for the government;
> the Boston bombing was an obvious fraud, where the Craft International
> perps had been outed by the alternative press already the evening of the
> event itself; and,
> the Sandy Hook event was staged to promote gun control, which fell short
> but not for a lack of trying.
> Check out http://www.veteranstoday.com/author/fetzer/ for my and other's
> articles about them.
> If anyone thinks I am wrong about any of this, just take a look at the
> evidence and tell me what I have wrong and how you know, so I can take your
> arguments into account.
> Most of us don't have the luxury or the background or the ability to take
> this on, but I am a professional scholar who has been devoting himself to
> their study since my retirement.
> I am not happy with what we have found, but the core of rationality is to
> adapt your beliefs to the available relevant evidence. For an explanation
> of how this can be done, consider
> "Thinking about 'Conspiracy Theories': 9/11 and JFK", which provides an
> introduction to "inference to the best explanation" in reasoning about
> cases like these at http://www.d.umn.edu/~jfetzer/fetzerexpandedx.pdf
> I have benefited from collaborating with authorities in different domains,
> such as a world authority on the human brain and expert on wound
> ballistics, a Ph.D. in physics who is also an M.D. and board certified in
> radiation oncology;
> an M.D. who was present when JFK was brought into Trauma Room #1 and two
> days later was responsible for the treatment of his alleged assassin in
> Trauma Room #2, a legendary photo analyst and another Ph.D. in
> electromagnetism.
> In relation to 9/11, I have similarly benefitted from collaboration with
> physicists, pilots, engineers (structural, mechanical, aeronautical, and
> chemical), which has enabled me to sort things out on the basis of experts
> in areas where I am not.
> Since David insists that I have "put my reputation through a wood
> chipper", as he so cavalierly puts it, let him choose the subject among
> those I've listed and SHOW WHAT I HAVE WRONG. He can pick the subject and
> explain what I say about it and why, then explain what I have wrong and how
> he knows. I don't think he can prevail on any of these subjects and if he
> cannot, then we will have proof positive he is the ignoramus who has no
> idea what he's talking about, which is already apparent to me. So he can
> take up my challenge or crawl back into the hole he came out of. The world
> will know he's a total fraud.
> Jim
>
> ****
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 8:15 PM, David Gehrig <david-cu at nukulele.org>wrote:
> **
>
> I'm not going to get caught up in a tedious cycle of reply to reply to
> reply, mostly because Jim Fetzer has already done me the favor of putting
> his reputation here through the wood chipper, so thoroughly in fact that
> there are hardly any large chunks left that need addressing. So here's my
> sole reply to this thread.
> **
> I long ago decided that there was an upper limit to the politeness a
> Holocaust denier can expect, so I hope you don't expect that through some
> sense of faux collegiality I will pretend I don't notice how Fetzer's
> remarks reek of eau d'Naziboy.
> **
> What is Fetzer's argument about the number of Holocaust dead based on? He
> points to a website article of the form "What is it with the lying Jews and
> their fetish about the number six million? They're polluting the minds of
> white children." Here's a direct quote from the article Fetzer found so
> persuasive:
> **
> "The primary function of this insidious global propaganda campaign is to
> -- quite simply -- brainwash non-Jews into a state of abject fear and
> paralysis while we are ideologically, economically, and physically enslaved
> by the Jewish tribe."
> **
> Now, remember, that's an article that Fetzer not only doesn't find
> racially problematic, not only finds agreeable, not only doesn't set off
> his racism alarm, but finds so sunnily agreeable to his worldview that he
> actually recommended it to the rest of this list as an example of the sort
> of thing that shapes his thoughts on the topic.
> **
> I've long felt that 9/11 trooferdom, while always quite stupid, was not
> inherently antisemitic. It has its Jew-haters, sure, but that doesn't mean
> everyone.
> **
> Steve Francis, by his selection of Jim Fetzer and Kevin Barrett, has made
> it clear that he has aligned himself with the Jew-hating wing of
> trooferdom.
> **
> The sad part is, I don't think that Steve Francis is motivated by
> antisemitism. I just think he's so completely credulous, he doesn't do the
> most rudimentary gut-check of the antisemitic slop people like Fetzer feed
> him.
> **@%<
> **On Sep 17, 2013, at 3:29 PM, Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:** **
>
> This is James Fetzer's response to David Gehrig's post (below)
> **
> ----- Forwarded Message -----** *From:* James Fetzer <jfetzer at d.umn.edu>
> *To:* Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 17, 2013 12:49 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Fw: [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11 Truth
> Conference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
> **
> **
> Someone is willfully misinterpreting, but that ain't me. I am a Holocaust
> REVISIONIST,
> because I believe we have inherited a grossly exaggerated account of the
> events that
> are alleged to have taken place at the end of WWII. The number of alleged
> "victims" of
> the Holocaust, 6,000,000, for example, appears to be a number that has
> theological or
> ideological origins and is not historically accurate. See, for example, a
> study discussing
> the origins of the 6,000,000 myth at
> http://zioncrimefactory.com/the-six-million-myth/
> **
> Moreover, the Nuremberg Tribunals appear to have presented a biased case
> to convey
> the impression that the Nazis were responsible for the extensive
> starvation of inmates
> at internment camps, when, as Robert Faurisson, "Against
> Hollywoodism, Revisionism",
>
> http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.com/2012/02/against-hollywoodism-revisionism.htmlhas
> explained, that was a consequence of Allied bombing of German cities,
> which interdicted
> railroad lines and made it impossible to resupply the camps, leading to
> mass starvation.
> Ironically, the Tribunals found that collective punishment is a war crime,
> which the Allies
> appear to have been keen to cover-up by attributing the starvation to the
> Nazis instead.
> **
> There are many other reasons to doubt the "official account" of the
> Holocaust. I do not
> DENY that Jews, gypsies and the mentally and physically infirm were abused
> by Nazis,
> but the nature of that abuse appears to have been exaggerated for
> political purposes. It
> is no coincidence that the allegation of being a "Holocaust denier" is
> raised against any
> one who is remotely critical of the actions or policies of the government
> of Israel, which
> may qualify as "anti-Zionist" but does not qualify as "anti-Semitic". For
> more, I have a
> half-dozen or more interviews on "The Real Deal" discussing Holocaust
> mythology at
> http://radiofetzer.blogspot.com/. Anyone can go there and do a search on
> "Holocaust".
> **
> I published an article about this question, "Is 9/11 research
> 'anti-Semitic'?" in 2009. It
> is offensive that Zionist organizations and individuals continue to attack
> all of us who
> are trying to make sense of the evidence about the Holocaust and to
> counter the false
> account of history that these exaggerated attacks entail, which play upon
> a sense of
> Western guilt to manipulate the public to promote the political agenda of
> Israel. There
> is more that could be said here, but I would like to think this is enough.
> I have most
> recently laid out my views on these questions in an article in Veterans
> Today 2013:
>
> http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/06/04/anti-anti-semitism-and-the-search-for-historical-truth/
> **
> **
> **
>
> ----- Forwarded Message -----**
> *From:* David Gehrig <david-cu at nukulele.org>
> *To:* Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* occupycu <occupyCU at lists.chambana.net>; "
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>;
> sftalk <sftalk at yahoogroups.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 17, 2013 8:40 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11 Truth Conference,
> Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
> **
> Is that the same Jim Fetzer who says the Nazis only killed 600,000 Jews in
> the Holocaust, based on his willful misinterpretation of an ICRC document?
> Why, yes it is.
> **
> You're not doing a very good job disentangling yourself from the Holocaust
> denial movement, are you.
> **@%<
> **On Sep 17, 2013, at 6:28 AM, Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:** **
>
>
> Hello all,
> The News Gazette has published an article<http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2013-09-16/sunday-conference-focus-911-attacks.html#comment-516074> (and
> below) on The Midwest 9/11 Truth Conference this Sunday at the Urbana Free
> Library, in the auditorium from 1:30-4:45pm. Again, the speakers are three
> highly knowledgeable experts on 9/11 Truth including James Fetzer Ph.D.
> (founder of Scholars for 9/11 Truth <http://911scholars.org/>), Wayne
> Madsen (editor of WayneMadsenReport.com<http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/>
> , Washington D.C.) and Kevin Barrett (co-founder of the Muslim Jewish
> Christian Alliance for 9/11 Truth <http://www.mujca.com/>). The
> conference is hosted by UC 9/11 Truth Urbana-Champaign<https://www.facebook.com/groups/uc911truth/>and
> NewsFollowUp.com<http://newsfollowup.com/midwest_911_truth_conference_champaign-urbana_september_2013_newsfollowup.htm> ...
> see Facebook Event <https://www.facebook.com/events/394502717338293/> email:
> info at midwest911truth.com
>
> The world has changed dramatically since 9/11. Citizens of the U.S.
> have seen a precipitous erosion in basic Constitutional rights since
> 9/11. This usurpation of rights has been directly tied to the creation of
> government entities and legislation, such as the Department of Homeland
> Security, the Patriot Act, the Military Commissions Act, the NDAA and
> revelation of massive surveillance of the American people by NSA.
>
> The first component of the conference will be to view the widely
> distributed and acclaimed documentary film by the Architects & Engineers
> for 9/11 Truth, 'Explosive Evidence: Experts Speak Out'. Because
> AE911Truth.org <http://www.ae911truth.org/> is a highly significant
> leader in the 9/11
> Truth movement, its influential documentary deserves careful scrutiny
> insofar its conclusions are widely regarded as providing crucial evidence
> for future legal action.
>
>
> James Fetzer, Ph.D., will assess the A&E documentary and report the
> latest scientific findings about how it was done, where all sides agree that the
> Twin Towers could not have been brought down by the impact of airliners and
> resulting fires.. His analysis of the science of 9/11 will be complemented
> by Wayne Madsen's analysis of who was responsible and why. Kevin Barrett
> will moderate and add his perspective to all of these issues.
> We seek to find answers to legitimate questions about 9/11 and to enable
> credible prosecutors to bring the perpetrators for these acts to
> justice. There is a vast amount of evidence gathered to support this
> belief and has led to the conclusion that neo-cons in the US were aided by
> the intelligence services of other countries. Supporters of the 9/11
> Truth movement, including local members of UC 9/11 Truth Urbana
> Champaign, demand a new independent and international investigation of
> 9/11.
>
> We invite all to attend. The conference is free and open to the public.
> Thank youSteve Francis
> UC 9/11 Truth Urbana-Champaign email: info at midwest911truth.com
>
>
> News Gazette article:
> Sunday conference to focus on 9/11 attacks
>
> Mon, 09/16/2013 - 7:40pm | The News-Gazette<http://www.news-gazette.com/author/news-gazette>
> URBANA — A conference planned this weekend in Urbana will explore issues
> surrounding the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001.
> The Midwest 9/11 Truth Conference will be held at 1:30 p.m. Sunday in the
> auditorium of the Urbana Free Library, 210 W. Green St.
> The event is sponsored by UC 9/11 Truth Urbana-Champaign. (see Facebook)
> Admission is free and open to the public.
> People who have been studying the events of Sept. 11 will talk about their
> perspectives on the attacks.
> "According to national and international polls, nearly 30 percent of the
> population is skeptical of the 'official' version of the events of 9/11,"
> said Steve Francis of UC 9/11 Truth Champaign-Urbana. "The 9/11 Commission
> Report is viewed as a cover-up by a significant percentage of citizens and
> the 9/11 Truth Movement seeks to find answers to these questions about the
> real cause of those atrocities."
> The conference will begin the presentation of a documentary film,
> "Explosive Evidence: Experts Speak Out."
> James Fetzer, the founder of Scholars for 9/11 Truth, will comment on the
> documentary and report on scientific findings.
> Wayne Madsen, editor of WayneMadsenReport.com<http://waynemadsenreport.com/>,
> will provide an analysis of who may have been responsible for the attacks
> and why.
> Kevin Barrett, co-founder of the Muslim-Jewish-Christian Alliance for 9/11
> Truth, will serve as moderator and will add his perspective on the issues.
> For more information on the event, call Fetzer at 608-354-4280.
>
> _______________________________________________** OccupyCU mailing list**
> OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net**
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