[Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] Chomsky on BDS

Mon Aug 11 19:51:09 EDT 2014

It's clear BTW who's willing to kill those who disagree with them:

Obama killed US citizen Anwar al-Awalaki and his teen-aged son - in separate drone strikes.

Along with 5,000 others - including 200 children. 

"Turns out I'm really good at killing people," Obama said. "Didn't know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine."

As you suggest, a civilized country would drive out a leader who was a confessed murderer - "like the leadership of ISIS."

> On Aug 11, 2014, at 6:31 PM, Stan via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> 
>> Yes I am. Extremism only works for those willing to kill all those that disagree with them like the leadership of ISIS.
>> BTW I have never been a Hillary fan. However she is better than any Republican.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Aug 11, 2014, at 12:33 PM, "C. G. Estabrook" <carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Are you really recommending "moderation" and "compr(om)ise" with National Socialism?
>>> 
>>> I guess you are ready for Hillary, Stan:
>>> 
>>> "We should have bombed Syria in the first place. Then there would be no Caliphate." 
>>> 
>>> "The Caliph will attack Europe and the US ('I’m thinking a lot about containment, deterrence and defeat.')"
>>> 
>>> "Israel has a right to defend itself. And it’s all Hamas fault." 
>>> 
>>> "...So her doctrine/organizing principle will be 'We came, we saw, he died.'"
>>> 
>>> http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/hillary-clinton-failure-to-help-syrian-rebels-led-to-the-rise-of-isis/375832/?single_page=true
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Aug 11, 2014, at 10:00 AM, Stan via OccupyCU <occupycu at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> For the record we do not live in the thirties. We need to move forward from today and quit saying this or that can not work because it is outside the absolutism of a few. My guess is that there were absolutists in the thirties that prevented moderation then as you do today. They may have been called Communists of their day but their refusal to comprise only weakened the possibility for reform as absolutists of today do. We know what happened to many of those absolutists.
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> On Aug 10, 2014, at 6:58 PM, "C. G. Estabrook" <carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> An immensely silly thing to say. Is Germany outside of history? Are the 1930s?
>>>>> 
>>>>> But Roosevelt and the American 1930s are models? Another example of "American exceptionalism"?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 10, 2014, at 6:54 PM, Stan <swag901 at ymail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> They say the first to make a Hitler comparison loses. In this instance it applies.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Aug 10, 2014, at 6:51 PM, "C. G. Estabrook" <carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If only the good liberals had pushed to "take back" the NSDAP in 1933. Maybe they did.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Aug 10, 2014, at 6:46 PM, Stan via OccupyCU <occupycu at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I have heard the Goodman broadcast and now I read it. It seems Chomsky is warning against absolutism because it frequently hurts those it is intended to help. This is why I keep pushing to take back the Democratic Party. Step by step.     Inch by inch. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Aug 10, 2014, at 11:07 AM, "C. G. Estabrook via OccupyCU" <occupycu at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Important and indeed essential.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 10, 2014, at 10:58 AM, Paul Mueth via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> For the record from the web extra on Dem Now 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> AMY GOODMAN: Noam, I wanted to ask you about your recent piece for The Nation on Israel-Palestine and BDS. You were critical of the effectiveness of the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement. One of the many responses came from Yousef Munayyer, the executive director of the Jerusalem Fund and its educational program, the Palestine Center. He wrote, quote, "Chomsky’s criticism of BDS seems to be that it hasn’t changed the power dynamic yet, and thus that it can’t. There is no doubt the road ahead is a long one for BDS, but there is also no doubt the movement is growing ... All other paths toward change, including diplomacy and armed struggle, have so far proved ineffective, and some have imposed significant costs on Palestinian life and livelihood." Could you respond?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, actually, I did respond. You can find it on The Nation website. But in brief, far from being critical of BDS, I was strongly supportive of it. One of the oddities of what’s called the BDS movement is that they can’t—many of the activists just can’t see support as support unless it becomes something like almost worship: repeat the catechism. If you take a look at that article, it very strongly supported these tactics. In fact, I was involved in them and supporting them before the BDS movement even existed. They’re the right tactics.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> But it should be second nature to activists—and it usually is—that you have to ask yourself, when you conduct some tactic, when you pursue it, what the effect is going to be on the victims. You don’t pursue a tactic because it makes you feel good. You pursue it because it’s going—you estimate that it’ll help the victims. And you have to make choices. This goes way back. You know, say, back during the Vietnam War, there were debates about whether you should resort to violent tactics, say Weathermen-style tactics. You could understand the motivation—people were desperate—but the Vietnamese were strongly opposed. And many of us, me included, were also opposed, not because the horrors don’t justify some strong action, but because the consequences would be harm to the victims. The tactics would increase support for the violence, which in fact is what happened. Those questions arise all the time.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, the Palestinian solidarity movements have been unusual in their unwillingness to think these things through. That was pointed out recently again by Raja Shehadeh, the leading figure in—lives in Ramallah, a longtime supporter, the founder of Al-Haq, the legal organization, a very significant and powerful figure. He pointed out that the Palestinian leadership has tended to focus on what he called absolutes, absolute justice—this is the absolute justice that we want—and not to pay attention to pragmatic policies. That’s been very obvious for decades. It used to drive people like Eqbal Ahmad, the really committed and knowledgeable militant—used to drive him crazy. They just couldn’t listen to pragmatic questions, which are what matter for success in a popular movement, a nationalist movement. And the ones who understand that can succeed; the ones who don’t understand it can’t. . . . 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
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