[Peace-discuss] [Discuss] Common Core

Mon Jan 27 03:56:36 UTC 2014

I grew up where my (Yankee) mother corrected my Tidewater pronunciation:  PEE-cans became peh-KAHNS...

I didn't like them either way. To say nothing (appropriately) of Stuckey's. 

Sorry, Lynn, if they're kin. (Or more than kind.)

On Jan 26, 2014, at 9:44 PM, <ewj at pigsqq.org> <ewj at pigsqq.org> wrote:

> Nougat does not come from some abstraction of "no good"
> but from nux gatum (nut cake, not nut cat). Strictly Not to be
> confused with nux vomica which might not be so good for you.
> 
> But it would follow that Divinity is not good for you either as it
> is a kind of nougat, while nougat is not a form of divinity per se.
> 
> It's those pecans.
> 
> In the south they are called PEE-cans, in the north peh-KAHNS.
> The northers say a pee can is something they keep under the bed.
> The southers say they have indoor plumbing.
> 
> 
>> -------Original Message-------
>> From: Carl G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
>> To: E. Wayne Johnson 朱稳森 <ewj at pigsqq.org>
>> Cc: Lynn Stuckey <lynn.stuckey at hotmail.com>, Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>, discuss list <discuss-communitycourtwatch at lists.chambana.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Discuss] Common Core
>> Sent: Jan 27 '14 11:04
>> 
>> Nougat isn't good for you.
>> 
>> 
>> On Jan 26, 2014, at 9:01 PM, E. Wayne Johnson 朱稳森 <[LINK:
>> mailto:ewj at pigsqq.org] ewj at pigsqq.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Not every child gets the chance to grow up in a community like
>> Champaign-Urbana.
>> 
>> This is indisputably true, since there are several million children in the
>> world,
>> and for most of them it is too far to walk to C-U to attend school even if
>> they
>> arise early each day, and there are few boarding schools in C-U.
>> 
>> Democracy, genuine or American, does not necessary imply that there is a
>> consensus in
>> the community.  People consent to things that they do not agree with as
>> they see no way out
>> or no way period.
>> 
>> I would suppose that in every place there are those who think that adults
>> should get involved
>> with the education of their children even if they are opposed to taxation
>> and waste and those
>> who think that the problem with education in America is that they still
>> dont spend enough.
>> 
>> I do think that it is a great idea for every community and area to try to
>> find its own way
>> and develop according to its own ideas, right, wrong, or indifferent.  If
>> you find
>> that the prevalent memes of some place don't suit you, you can move away to
>> 
>> find a more suitable spot.
>> 
>> Mandates of various kinds sent to communities are certainly
>> anti-democratic.
>> 
>> If the people of Podunk, IL want to teach their children that the earth is
>> flat
>> and the moon is made of Green cheese or sticky pecans and nougat, what
>> should one do?
>> 
>> The Mennonites and many other groups want to teach a certain way of
>> thinking
>> in their rural areas.  Why should those be compelled to follow they ways of
>> a
>> majority?  Democracy seems oppressive and tyrannical to them,
>> 
>> 
>> On 1/27/2014 8:02 AM, Lynn Stuckey wrote:
>> ON A GENUINELY DEMOCRATIC BASIS, WITHOUT PRESSURE AND HARASSMENT, PARENTS,
>> TEACHERS, ADMINISTRATORS, CITIZENS, AND DEVELOPING CHILDREN CAN MAKE SOUND
>> DECISIONS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THEIR LOCAL PROCLIVITIES AND GENUINE CONCERN
>> ABOUT THEIR CHILDREN\'S FUTURES. ON THE BASIS OF CONSENSUAL
>> SCHOOL/COMMUNITY STANDARDS IN VARIOUS DISCIPLINES, TEACHERS, PARENTS, AND
>> CHILDREN CAN MAKE CHOICES THAT CONSIDER THE GIFTS AND TALENTS OF EACH
>> CHILD, AS WELL AS THE LABOR MARKET. THESE GIFTS AND TALENTS MAY HAVE
>> VOCATIONAL POSSIBILITIES OR OTHERWISE, BUT IT WILL BE UP TO CHILDREN, IN
>> CONSULTATION WITH THEIR PARENTS AND TEACHERS, TO MAKE CHOICES WITH VARIOUS
>> IMPLICATIONS FOR THEIR DEVELOPMENT AND THEIR FUTURE.
>> 
>> Sorry, David, but you've just made it clear that you've always lived in
>> places where adults regard it as their responsibility to educate children.
>> I must unfortunately inform you that not every community thinks that way
>> (many rural communities are good places of the thinking that drives their
>> underinvestment in education), and your proposed solution will leave these
>> children undereducated and consigned to lower earnings and achievement
>> throughout their life.  While it may make the adults feel good, how does it
>> help the children develop into productive adults?  How does this further
>> your goal of a progressive, more just society?
>> 
>> As a person who grew up in one of those communities that takes pride in
>> undereducating their children, it is not a pleasant place to be in, and
>> there is a reason I refused to subject my own child to that type of
>> education.  I do not appreciate your willingness to throw so many children
>> away.  Not every child gets the chance to grow up in a community like
>> Champaign-Urbana.
>> 
>> Lynn
>> 
>> 
>> --------------------
>> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 15:30:10 -0800
>> From: [LINK: mailto:davegreen84 at yahoo.com] davegreen84 at yahoo.com
>> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Common Core
>> To: [LINK: mailto:lynn.stuckey at hotmail.com] lynn.stuckey at hotmail.com;
>> [LINK: mailto:peace-discuss at anti-war.net] peace-discuss at anti-war.net;
>> [LINK: mailto:discuss-communitycourtwatch at lists.chambana.net]
>> discuss-communitycourtwatch at lists.chambana.net
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Lynn,
>> 
>> 
>> So long as schools are accorded the role of sorting out students for their
>> assigned places in brutal capitalism with its radical inequality, then
>> there is not much the schools can do one way or the other. Once we've
>> addressed economic issues as economic issues, then we can address
>> educational issues as educational issues, and let the chips fall where they
>> may. We can have national or state standards, but these should not be
>> mandatory. On a genuinely democratic basis, without pressure and
>> harassment, parents, teachers, administrators, citizens, and developing
>> children can make sound decisions in accordance with their local
>> proclivities and genuine concern about their children's futures. On the
>> basis of consensual school/community standards in various disciplines,
>> teachers, parents, and children can make choices that consider the gifts
>> and talents of each child, as well as the labor market. These gifts and
>> talents may have vocational possibilities or otherwise, but it will be up
>> to children, in consultation with their parents and teachers, to make
>> choices with various implications for their development and their future.
>> On this basis schools can come to address the needs of the individual in
>> the community, rather than groups whose interests, while worthy of
>> consideration, should have no bearing on the development and choices of the
>> child/adolescent/young adult.
>> 
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> 
>> David
>> 
>> 
>> On Sunday, January 26, 2014 12:53 PM, Lynn Stuckey [LINK:
>> mailto:lynn.stuckey at hotmail.com] <lynn.stuckey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> SCHOOL DISTRICTS (PARENTS, TEACHERS, STUDENTS, CITIZENS) NEED TO DEVELOP
>> THEIR OWN STANDARDS.  "Developing their own standards" is what gives us one
>> set of textbooks for Texas and another for the rest of the country.  Is
>> this a path you would like to continue on?  Do you really think the science
>> books that teach about creationism are doing those children any favors?
>> STANDARDS DON\'T HAVE TO BE UNIFORM, EVEN AMONG SCHOOLS OR CLASSROOMS.
>> And if the standards are not uniform, how can we be certain that all
>> children in a particular grade level are able to read, write, or do
>> arithmetic at a particular level?  A high school diploma is no longer a
>> guarantee that you can read or write; it has devolved into a marker that
>> you can show up for enough classes and stay out of enough trouble to make
>> it through.  Hence "credential inflation", best symbolized by the drapery
>> company in town that expects its receptionist to possess a four-year
>> degree, yet will only pay her minimum wage.  Any questions as to why this
>> job is constantly in the want ads?
>> THEY SHOULD RESULT FROM COMMUNITIES DEVELOPING AN EDUCATIONAL IDENTITY.  I
>> can't remember where you're from, David, but I know you've lived in C-U for
>> almost as long as I have.  I grew up on a farm almost 70 miles south of
>> here, in a county of 14,000 residents (2010 census:  11,400; about 98%
>> white) that is economically depressed and in (proud) possession of bad
>> schools.  You need to understand that many small and rural school districts
>> don't place a high premium on educational achievement, but the
>> Republican-dominated school boards expect and agitate for state payments.
>> Do you realize how many school districts in Illinois don't have Advanced
>> Placement or Honors classes?  Do you realize how many of the voting
>> citizens of those counties are more concerned about how their high school
>> football or basketball team is doing, but don't care about the kids who are
>> below average on reading or math tests?  Then they wonder why they can't
>> attract economic development, and why their population keeps declining and
>> getting poorer.
>> 
>> "Developing an educational identity" sounds great on paper and may work
>> well in a university town, where folks recognize the need for all children
>> to be achieving to the best of their abilities.   But it is a DISASTER for
>> children from areas like the one I grew up in, where the interest is not on
>> educating children, but rather on making sure they show up so the district
>> can collect the maximum payment from the State.
>> 
>> And I'm not a huge fan of Common Core--while the initial idea was good, the
>> back-mapping of what children need to learn, when they need to learn it
>> (often not based on when their developing brains are ready to do it), and
>> the execution of its rollout are horrible, and it's going to fail as badly
>> as pretty much any other education "reform" propogated in American schools
>> since the early 1900's.
>> 
>> What's the answer, you ask?  Well, I'm a fan of the money following the
>> child.   I would abolish attendance boundaries and allow parents and
>> children to flee the schools that are failing children.  And yes, some
>> schools will close, but why shouldn't you be out of business when you won't
>> even bother to make the effort to ensure all children are achieving to the
>> best of their abilities?  Why should a family held be captive to the
>> board's disinterest in and unwillingness to educate children to necessary
>> levels, simply because of their address?  Mine was, and let me tell you, it
>> was not a pleasant experience to be told that my school would not be
>> willing to pay for independent studies in Chemistry II and Physics II my
>> senior year of high school, and that I must round up 12 children to take
>> Calculus (the 9 I had found were considered to be an "insufficient number",
>> out of a class of 78 seniors).  But I was welcome to take P.E. for an
>> additional period, and had I considered Woodworking or Automotive class?
>> Really?  This is what you want to continue paying for?  Do you have any
>> reason to wonder why the four siblings who got a chance to go to the
>> Illinois Math and Science Academy fled there instead?
>> 
>> "Money following the child" is the model we use for college in the U.S.  I
>> don't buy the argument that parents are incapable of making decisions for
>> the best education for their child from ages 5-17, but once that child hits
>> 18, s/he can make a good decision about what college and career path they
>> are best suited for.  Just check out the statistics on how many people
>> complete college in six years or less, or the rates of degree attainment in
>> community colleges.  Just because some parents make educational decisions
>> you might not agree with does not make them wrong.
>> 
>> Lynn Stuckey
>> 
>> 
>> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 07:24:56 -0800
>> From: [LINK: mailto:davegreen84 at yahoo.com] davegreen84 at yahoo.com
>> To: [LINK: mailto:peace-discuss at anti-war.net] peace-discuss at anti-war.net;
>> [LINK: mailto:discuss-communitycourtwatch at lists.chambana.net]
>> discuss-communitycourtwatch at lists.chambana.net
>> Subject: [Discuss] Common Core
>> 
>> 
>> [LINK: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/01/24-10]
>> http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/01/24-10
>> 
>> 
>> Indispensable for an understanding how corrupted the "liberal vs.
>> conservative" debate is regarding school "reform". School districts
>> (parents, teachers, students, citizens) need to develop their own
>> standards. Standards don't have to be uniform, even among schools or
>> classrooms. They should result from communities developing an educational
>> identity.
>> 
>> 
>> DG
>> _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list [LINK:
>> mailto:Discuss at lists.chambana.net] Discuss at lists.chambana.net[LINK:
>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/discuss-communitycourtwatch]
>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/discuss-communitycourtwatch
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list
>> [LINK: mailto:Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net]
>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net [LINK:
>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss]
>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>> _______________________________________________
>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>> [LINK: mailto:Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net]
>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>> [LINK: https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss]
>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss