[Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] 9/11 Truth, The Elephant in the Room video ....

Wed Mar 26 19:58:14 UTC 2014

There is so much fear in addressing the holocaust that any rational discussion is impossible.  

And commenting on Adnan Zuberi by Mr. Morton:  I've had a few conversations with Adnan and he was terrified of the holocaust subject and asked me to absolutely not connect him in any way to the conference, of which I complied.

And I agree, his film does a great job of explaining the important 9/11 issues, but remains distant from the perpetrators, which is consistent with my prior statement about him.

As far as the gas chambers, I'll repeat that there is enough evidence to academically review the holocaust, but obviously that's not going to happen until there is a professional academic atmosphere to do it in.

On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 6:30 PM, David Gehrig <david-cu at nukulele.org> wrote:

Ah, the Leuchter report's krema capacity argument! Rockin' that Holocaust denial old-style! 

After the 2000 Irving libel trial, in which the Leuchter report was examined in great detail, Leuchter's results were so thoroughly discredited that even deniers stopped citing them, Most deniers got too embarrassed by Leuchter to admit they were relying on his arguments. Do you know that you've been fed stale dog food on this?

Modern standard, of course, is to cremate bodies one at a time, starting from a crematorium in a cold state. Neither of those were the case in the camps, which didn't need to reheat between loads, and which burned many bodies at once.

Whoever's pulling your chain kinda neglected to mention that, didn't they.

@%<

On Mar 26, 2014, at 6:09 PM, Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com> wrote:

correction made in previous email:  "Israel / British / US"
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>and on the Holocaust:
>It doesn't matter what I think about it.  There is enough evidence to dispute the official account. It should be debated without persecution in academia and this is not the case.  In fact if you touch the subject you lose your career.
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>But if you want evidence, just do the math on gassing and cremating 1 million people in about 30 crematoriums (that were designed to separate the body and fire ash, very inefficient.) that take about 1-2 hours each to fully cremate a body (this is a modern standard) and you'll will quickly find that it is an impossible task to accomplish in the one and a half years that Auschwitz was open.  
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> ... the facility only fully operational from the Spring of 1943 to 1945.
>see Wikipedia "By June 1943, all four crematoria were operational. Most of the victims were killed using these four structures ... "  The camps were overrun by Soviet troops near the end of 1945
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>1,500,000 hours / 24 hours / 12 months.... it doesn't even come close.... no way to fudge the numbers.  An eighth grader could figure out it wouldn't work let alone a university professor.
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>On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 5:35 PM, David Gehrig <david-cu at nukulele.org> wrote:
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>And what part of the Holocaust do you think is a hoax, Steve?
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>@%<
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>On Mar 26, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com> wrote:
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>9/11 was the most important event that transitioned the world from the Cold War/Soviet Union breakup to the so-called 'War on Terror' which is just a hoax to enrich the pockets of the 1% at the expense of Islamic peoples.
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>>To diminish 9/11 Truth is to deny the most important part of our recent history. 
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>>On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 5:12 PM, Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com> wrote:
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>>The Academic Freedom Conference: Are there Limits to Inquiry is just that, a rhetorical statement that there really are no limits to academic inquiry.  Politics, religion and military power hold no place in this process.  9/11 Truth, JFK assassination and the Holocaust should be openly debated.  Whether you like it or not there is a vast amount of verifiable facts that refute the 'official' versions of these events.  The should be subject to academic review without persecution.
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>>On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 5:06 PM, David Gehrig <david-cu at nukulele.org> wrote:
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>>Whoops! let's try that one again.
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>>http://static.nukulele.org/denial/youtube-statement.png
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>>@%<
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>>On Mar 26, 2014, at 5:02 PM, David Gehrig <david-cu at nukulele.org> wrote:
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>>Say, Steve, when you wrote this on YouTube publicizing your April conference, what did you mean by "the seemingly enduring Holocaust hoax"?
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>>https://static.nukulele.org/denial/youtube-statement.png
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>>@%<
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>>On Mar 26, 2014, at 4:48 PM, Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com> wrote:
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>>If you want me to repeat what I said above I will, but I think it's unnecessary.
>>>Israel is under greater attack for more directions than ever before because of the vast number of media choices people have to decide what the want to pay attention to and have the will now to break through the propaganda provided by the MSM, Wikipedia, Facebook and Google.  They won't touch 9/11, which is a highly significant point in itself that supports my view that Israel was complicit in 9/11.  
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm old enough to remember watching Walter Kronkite on a black and white TV and realize now that I was being brainwashed. I am no longer brainwashed.
>>>
>>>
>>>I made the very incendiary remark about a year ago that I thought 3000 people were murdered on 9/11 and I still hold that belief, based on a scientific process of evidence accumulation and analysis. No matter what I do, nothing changes this.  If anyone can provide information that it was some other force other than a combination of Israel / British / Israel I will gladly look at that.
>>>
>>>
>>>And like I mentioned above, we (these threads) all agree on many social justice issues, but disagree vehemently on 9/11, which again just proves my point that there is a hidden agenda to shift the blame away from Israel.  The present tide is in my favor.  Who knows where it will lead.  Just imagine if the our modern civilization really came to grips with the horrendous idea that 9/11 was indeed an 'inside job'.  It could mean more than the end of Israel. This is the fear driving the conversation, I think.  
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>>>I may be actually a friend of Israel in advocating a clean sweep of the people who did this.
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>>>On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 3:44 PM, Ricky Baldwin <rbaldwin at seiu73.org> wrote:
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>>>This type of thinking is exactly what concerns me, I'm afraid, if you are referring to my skepticism:
>>>
>>>"This is very suspicious to me and evidence of a those who do this having a hidden agenda. 9/11 Truthers blame the same people/corporations/governments for the aforementioned list as they blame for the deliberate destruction of the WTC (to start wars, etc).  There is a glaring, obvious inconsistency here."
>>>
>>>You are making connections where none exist, like apophenia or cloud watching.  Some of us remember the Slot-n-Wing guy who was at the forefront of the local pro-war counter-demonstrations over on North Prospect in 2003 announcing over his
 loudspeaker and to the press that we on the anti-war side were all following orders from our "foreign paymasters."  He couldn't understand why
 we would oppose the invasion of Iraq - and in a sense looked at the question in a similar way to the thought process advocated by our side: cui bono? - but of course that's just suspicion, which as often as not seems to have more to do with prejudice than evidence.
>>>
>>>Some people even believe the 9-11 "conspiracy theories" are CIA/FBI/NSA creations to discredit the anti-war movement or distract from the real work of organizing around a clear agenda.  I haven't seen any evidence of this, but it is a similar line of reasoning.
>>>
>>>If I could try to clarify my point, Jesse, imagine an allegation, I don't know, that Hitler was being paid by the US Government in long con to end the Depression and stop Communism at the Brandenburg Gate, let's say.  There was early praise of Adolf from the later Allies, the US turned away a shipload of Jewish refugees, etc.  The US clearly emerged from
 WW2 as the world's dominant Superpower, so the *cui bono* question works.  Who lost the most soldiers?  The Soviets.  Most of Europe was relegated to dependency and even the Brits got taken down a notch, from "Empire" to "Former".  But does this mean Hitler was a US puppet?
>>>
>>>Look, there's a famous quote supposedly from Hermann Goering as a POW about nobody wanting war and manipulating them by fear and so on.  I happen to doubt its veracity.  I agree with the statement.  I just don't think Goering said it.  Snopes calls it true, but I have my doubts.  Doesn't mean I disagree with the goals of the people who repeat it.  I happen to love the quote and really wish it were real.  I don't make a fuss because there isn't much evidence either way, but don't assume that everyone who disagrees with your pet theory is an agent of the dark side or something.
>>>
>>>Ricky
>>>
>>>________________________________
>>>From: Stephen Francis [stephenf1113 at yahoo.com]
>>>Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 2:44 PM
>>>To: Ricky Baldwin; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; occupycu
>>>Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] 9/11 Truth, The Elephant in the Room video ....
>>>
>>>
>>>Most of us on these threads agree on the major issues of anti-war, anti-military industrial complex, anti-nuclear, anti-discrimination, anti-1%, anti-Wall Street corruption, anti-GMO, anti-NSA, anti- on and on ... and (oh... congratulations Carol Ammons, by the way).
>>>
>>>We bash corporations for their
 greed, and blame the government for our astronomical debt, but when it comes to 9/11 Truth all of a sudden many are defending the official position (9/11 Commission joke) and going out of their way to diminish the meaning of the events on 9/11.
>>>
>>>This is very suspicious to me and evidence of a those who do this having a hidden agenda. 9/11 Truthers blame the same people/corporations/governments for the aforementioned list as they blame for the deliberate destruction of the WTC (to start wars, etc).  There is a glaring, obvious inconsistency here.
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>>>I want to make a correction in the Academic Freedom Conference restatement I made the other day.  I said: "Dual Israeli/American citizens, for example, were deeply involved in the ownership, privatization, cleanup, rebuilding, adjudication, victim compensation, investigation and media coverage of the destruction of the WTC complex."
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>>>This should have said - Dual Israeli/American citizens, for example, were deeply involved in the ownership, privatization, cleanup, rebuilding, adjudication, emergency management, legislation, military response, investigation, victim compensation and media coverage of the destruction of the WTC complex.
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>>>I'm sure you're all tired of my bashing Israel, but I have nowhere else to look, It wasn't the Russians, Chinese, Jesuits, Martians.
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>>>The issue is not settled.
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>>>Here is more from California.
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>>>[sf911truth]
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>>>On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 2:04 PM, Ricky Baldwin <rbaldwin at seiu73.org> wrote:
>>>I'm afraid the elephant
 in the room has a dfferent
 name.  It appears to me that much of the doubt directed at the "official version" of what happened to the Twin Towers and AA77 has a source other than sound reason.
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>>>The circumstantial evidence for this (the doubters who also doubt the Kennedy assassination, the moon walk, the Sandy Hook shootings, the accident that killed Paul Wellstone and other highly dubious doubts, so to speak) is not all, of course.  The view of the world that says every detail must be accounted for fully and satisafctorily by a mundane model, or we must cast the mundane model aside in favor of the fantastic, is troublesome in itself.  And the reasning that, just because the Government lied about some things, they must have lied about everything, is flawed.
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>>>George Bush & Co. told the world that Saddam Hussein maintained "weapons of
 mass destruction" in 2003.  But once the US invasion and occupation confirmed that this was untrue, the Government admitted that the expected weapons were not there.  Couldn't they have issued a false report, or planted some gas, or at least found a way to remove the UN stickers from the old weapons already catalogued and out of commission?  If this were too difficult for them to pull off, do we seriously believe that the events of Sept. 11, 2001, were easier to fake?
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>>>Not that telling the truth on one item means they will tell the truth on another, either, by any means.  We know that footage of crowds pulling down a statue in Iraq was staged (we have the wider frame shots, the testimony of folks who were there as the shots were set up, etc).  We also know that some of the putative justification for the US attack on Iraq in the 1990's was faked: the testimony of
 the young girl who supposedly saw Iraqi troops removing Kuwaiti babies from incubators (she was never there, a PR firm paid her, etc.).  But we have nothing even remotely approaching evidence that 9-11 was a hoax, an inside job, or anything other that what it appeared to be: a terrorist attack (with the caveat that the terrorists seem to have been connected to elements originally trained by US agents in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation).
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>>>The vast majority of argumentation for 9-11 doubt takes the form "Why would x happen?"  This is not evidence.  Ask almost anybody to explain, for example, the weird effects of a tornado or hurricane, and they likely cannot.  This is not evidence of funny business.
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>>>A minority of the argumentation consists of activities such as men in overalls coming into the
 building over the weekend prior to Sept .11, 2011, which we are supposed to find suspicious.  However, the individuals who say they witnessed these activities say they saw nothing unusual in it at the time.  It is only after the fact that significance seems to adhere to them, like a funny feeling someone may remember having somewhere around the time some terrible event is believed to have happened.  But there is no reason to believe this is not simply confirmational bias (e.g. a song on the radio that suits a mood or circumstance is noticed, while other songs before and after are ignored because they do not seem to fit).
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>>>Who knows?  The World Trade Center may have been destroyed by Bush agents, Israeli agents, extraterrestrials, a "directed energy beam," a "mini black hole," or who knows what.  I can see that such theories are *more interesting* that the apparent
 answer and subsequent opportunism by Bush et al.  What I cannot see, no matter how many of these videos I watch, is *why any of those explanations is better (or even equally) supported by the evidence* compared to the apparent answer.
>>>
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>>>Another common mistake, which may be related to this one, is to dismiss all horror stories, such as the very real evils of the old School of the Americas, extraordinary rendition, and so on, as fantastical "conspiracy theories" of the Roswell type.  We just have to look at the evidence if we don't want to be gullible.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Ricky
>>>________________________________
>>>From: OccupyCU [occupycu-bounces at lists.chambana.net<mailto:occupycu-bounces at lists.chambana.net>] on behalf of Stephen Francis [stephenf1113 at yahoo.com<mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>]
>>>Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 1:03 PM
>>>To: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; occupycu
>>>
>>>Subject: [OccupyCU] 9/11 Truth, The Elephant in the Room video
 ....
>>>
>>>
>>>YouTube video<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJoejNkTp4U>, 9/11/Truth<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJoejNkTp4U>
>>>
>>>[X]
>>>
>>>
>>>
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