[Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] Awareness of U.S. war-making, 2015.39

Sun Sep 27 20:03:58 EDT 2015

Hitler, Bush Jr., and Obama all became heads of government constitutionally after elections. None staged a coup.

You’re probably right that practically any opponent of Bush’s wars could have been elected in 2008 - especially if, like Obama, s/he lied about opposing those wars. 

> On Sep 27, 2015, at 6:57 PM, Stan <swag901 at ymail.com> wrote:
> 
> First, neither Hitler, nor Bush 43 were originally elected president.
> Second, any Democrat would have won in 2008, after the Afghanistan,  and Iraq wars.
> The conservative collapse was just one more thing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
> On Sep 27, 2015 12:36 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" <galliher at illinois.edu> wrote:
> I’ll accept “preceded” - just as the Depression preceded Hitler’s election.
> 
> It’s clear that 
> (a) Obama would not have become president without the economic collapse of 2007-08, and 
> (b) 95% of the income gains of the Obama years have gone to the 1%.
> 
> The 1% supported his campaigns, and he knows whom he’s working for.
> 
> I do not blame all the evils of Bush 43 on Obama. Each has plenty of his own.
> 
> 
> On Sep 27, 2015, at 12:25 PM, Stan via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
> 
> You say "the economic collapse of 2007-8 that accompanied Obama's becoming president".
> Clearly a conservative media premise.
> Blame Obama for the failures of Bush 43.
> Accompanied should be preceded.
> I gave up on reading when you started blaming all the evils of Bush 43 on Obama, just as conservative media wants you to do.
> 
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
> On Sep 27, 2015 11:41 AM, "C. G. Estabrook via OccupyCU" <occupycu at lists.chambana.net <mailto:occupycu at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
> As I’ve said, McCoy’s article will be defended as an 'objective' account, but - in addition to ethical complacency - it shows a remarkable overestimation of the success of its heroes: Obama, Brzezinski (who invented modern jihadism) and Elihu Root (a corporation lawyer who as Secretary of War presided over the brutal US war in the Philippines, and - when another lying Democratic president, Woodrow Wilson, tricked an antiwar America into World War I - said critics of Wilson’s war should be shot for treason). To call Obama a 'foreign policy grandmaster' is a fulsome way to acknowledge that *his foreign policy is a continuation and indeed an intensification of more than a century of imperial crimes by the US executive*.
> 
> That last is the important point, even if we disagree on the degree of Obama’s foreign policy “success” (where I think in fact your views are closer to mine than to McCoy’s). 
> 
> You saw my jeu d’esprit on Obama’s success:
> 
> Obama has been president for six and a half years. Adolf Hitler had been chancellor of Germany for six and a half years in the summer of 1940. Like Obama today, he had launched aggressive wars with the latest technology and was currently making war in half a dozen countries, while poised to dismantle the threatened economic integration of Eurasia. While he was in office, Germany had recovered to some extent from the economic collapse that accompanied his rise to power, just as Obama’s America has recovered to some extent from the economic collapse of 2007-8 that accompanied Obama’s becoming president.
> 
> We can imagine a German liberal in 1940 writing an article about the then-leader of Germany as a political grandmaster and comparing Hitler to Bismarck and Wilhelm as McCoy compares Obama to Root and Brzezinski. Only the upcoming events - the failed military attempt to control Eurasia - unknown of course if perhaps predictable in the summer of 1940 - makes the “grandmaster” title hard to imagine as applied to Hitler. It would have seemed quite appropriate at the point when Hitler had been in office as long as Obama has today. (See particularly Nicholson Baker, "Human Smoke: The Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization," 2008.)
> 
> It was the contest for Eurasia that brought Hitler (and Germany) down, and Obama is today provoking both Russia and China (as you report often for AOTA), by waging a proxy war in Ukraine and constructing economic and military alliances (including Japan) against China. Of course the outcome need not be the same - it could be much worse.
> 
> Happy Sunday, CGE
> 
> 
> On Sep 27, 2015, at 11:22 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
> 
> Sorry Carl
>  
> I don't agree with your assessment of Alfred McCoy, that he is enamored of either Brzezinski or Obama, I think he is being a bit sarcastic in the below statement that you have taken out of context. I like everything that Perry Anderson has to say.
>  
> I base my assessment of McCoy upon his other works, and the complete text of the following article. 
>  
> Tomgram: Alfred McCoy, Maintaining American Supremacy in the Twenty-First Century	
> Posted by Alfred McCoy <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.tomdispatch.com_authors_mccoy_&d=AwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=GTj5L6VrUn65_IDefGdFXxO3nhAu86cP8Ca8VlxVqIk&s=MGVYEDnd1N4rioE3XeqaeWIVK4kGZjWIDkuNx6GRhto&e=>	at 8:00am, September 15, 2015.
> Follow TomDispatch on Twitter @TomDispatch <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.twitter.com_tomdispatch&d=AwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=GTj5L6VrUn65_IDefGdFXxO3nhAu86cP8Ca8VlxVqIk&s=rAHDbcBFSEPVh7Hbv0WhNqZI8uOl7opGr1KjFDwE4gU&e=>.
>  
>  
> It could be a joke of the “a penguin, a rabbi, and a priest walked into a bar” variety, but this one would start, “five Chinese naval vessels operating in the Bering Sea sailed into U.S. territorial waters, coming within 12 miles of the U.S. coast...”  And the punch line would be yours to come up with.  Certainly, that “event,” which did indeed occur recently (without notification to U.S. authorities), caused a small news flap <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.foxnews.com_politics_2015_09_04_5-2Dchinese-2Dnavy-2Dships-2Doff-2Dalaska-2Dcoast-2Dreportedly-2Dpass-2Dthrough-2Dus-2Dwaters_&d=AwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=GTj5L6VrUn65_IDefGdFXxO3nhAu86cP8Ca8VlxVqIk&s=sCJnvqqrDVio6c5qYclg5v3zQSvYAxGmLLhaAcWuCX0&e=> here, in part because President Obama was then visiting Alaska.  Not since German U-boats prowled <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cnn.com_2014_10_21_us_north-2Dcarolina-2Du-2Dboat-2Dwreck_&d=AwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=GTj5L6VrUn65_IDefGdFXxO3nhAu86cP8Ca8VlxVqIk&s=xcTQy3kLW8TVdauXZgvsfO8HEzLS5zrWz6yQVqFgB5A&e=> off the East Coast of the U.S. during World War II had such a thing happened and though American officials reported <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.wsj.com_articles_chinese-2Dnavy-2Dships-2Doff-2Dalaska-2Dpassed-2Dthrough-2Du-2Ds-2Dterritorial-2Dwaters-2D1441350488&d=AwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=GTj5L6VrUn65_IDefGdFXxO3nhAu86cP8Ca8VlxVqIk&s=5Ydk6FAGxXzD23S6A64Ro53o3KHkwJD0wYVRYJ5kwsU&e=> that the Chinese had done nothing illegal or that failed to comply with international law, it still had a certain shock effect in a country that’s used to its own navy traveling the world’s waters at will.
> No one would think to report similarly on U.S. ships transiting global waters of every sort (often with the urge to impress or issue a warning).  It’s the norm of our world that the U.S. can travel the waters of its choice, including Chinese territorial ones, without comment or prior notification to anybody, and that it can build <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.tomdispatch.com_blog_176043_&d=AwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=GTj5L6VrUn65_IDefGdFXxO3nhAu86cP8Ca8VlxVqIk&s=fw0bzoVTVq0p3iMm_Z57Sa27mw2XNtn57zlEQ6yAw0U&e=> strings of bases and garrisons to “contain” China, and determine which waters <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.usatoday.com_story_news_world_2015_08_22_us-2Dadds-2Dmuscle-2Dseeks-2Dfriends-2Dsouth-2Dchina-2Dsea-2Dstandoff_31921703_&d=AwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=GTj5L6VrUn65_IDefGdFXxO3nhAu86cP8Ca8VlxVqIk&s=HKGPcCM5XKR5LRMasF4HgVz0Q83st70dfXBbWtkhM50&e=> off China’s coasts are “Chinese” and which are, in effect, American.  This is commonplace and so hardly news here.
> Any Chinese attempt to challenge this, however symbolically -- and those five ships were clearly meant to tweak the maritime nose of the globe’s “sole superpower" -- is news indeed.  That includes, of course, the giant, grim, militaristic parade the Chinese leadership recently organized in the streets of Beijing, which U.S. news reports <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cnn.com_2015_08_30_opinions_china-2Dmilitary-2Dparade-2Dnurkin_&d=AwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=GTj5L6VrUn65_IDefGdFXxO3nhAu86cP8Ca8VlxVqIk&s=bo0v9pjSdaDvqMMGJD7YShTRMz_GKlax6O84_yWyyWQ&e=> left you feeling had taken place, like the brief voyage of those five ships, somewhere in close proximity to U.S. territory.  There's no question that, despite recent <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__money.cnn.com_2015_08_21_news_economy_china-2Deconomy-2Dslowdown_&d=AwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=GTj5L6VrUn65_IDefGdFXxO3nhAu86cP8Ca8VlxVqIk&s=e7QdyWcF085gXv2LizJSFJtE_0m7gY63lVhy4dlzYJ8&e=> economic setbacks <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.euronews.com_2015_09_08_poor-2Dchinese-2Dtrade-2Dfigures-2Drenew-2Dfears-2Dover-2Dshaky-2Deconomy_&d=AwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=GTj5L6VrUn65_IDefGdFXxO3nhAu86cP8Ca8VlxVqIk&s=evr_1thZn6uEDK2TWulzMriXD3XmkAEw1qvx4NOK3xk&e=>, the Chinese still consider themselves the rising power on planet Earth, and are increasingly eager to draw some aggressive boundaries in the Pacific, while challenging a country that is “pivoting” directly into its neighborhood in a very public way.  Get used to all this.  It’s the beginning of what could prove to be a decades-long militarized contest between two bulked-up powers, each eager enough to be off the coast of the other one (though the only coast China is likely to be off in a serious way for a long time to come is the cyber-coast <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.washingtonpost.com_world_national-2Dsecurity_chinese-2Dhackers-2Dbreach-2Dfederal-2Dgovernments-2Dpersonnel-2Doffice_2015_06_04_889c0e52-2D0af7-2D11e5-2D95fd-2Dd580f1c5d44e-5Fstory.html&d=AwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=GTj5L6VrUn65_IDefGdFXxO3nhAu86cP8Ca8VlxVqIk&s=3tpscXizOtT77MclVfpr9WYLX5tbfHvDUuGP_5dU9qI&e=> of America <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.nytimes.com_2015_09_09_science_china-2Dflexes-2Dtech-2Dmuscles-2Dbefore-2Dstate-2Dvisit-2Dwith-2Dmeeting-2Dof-2Dindustry-2Dgiants.html&d=AwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=GTj5L6VrUn65_IDefGdFXxO3nhAu86cP8Ca8VlxVqIk&s=FR-ktW_tcVHFY9MM4_FcF8EhW72AVVM91PlqfUS14O8&e=>).
> Fortunately, TomDispatch has Alfred McCoy, a veteran empire watcher, keeping an eye on all of this.  Recently, he wrote a much-noted piece, “The Geopolitics of American Global Decline <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.tomdispatch.com_post_176007_tomgram-253A-5Falfred-5Fmccoy-2C-5Fwashington-27s-5Fgreat-5Fgame-5Fand-5Fwhy-5Fit-27s-5Ffailing-5F_&d=AwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=GTj5L6VrUn65_IDefGdFXxO3nhAu86cP8Ca8VlxVqIk&s=kaJAreiglqAYgF3584CuNyyTTboXFMcGTozObuH_dp4&e=>,” on Chinese attempts to reorganize the “world island” of Eurasia and break the encircling bounds of American power.  Today, in what is in essence part two, he turns to the other side of the equation, American power (never to be underestimated), and suggests that, in the imperial sweepstakes that have been the essence of global politics since at least the sixteenth century, the most underestimated figure of our moment may be President Barack Obama.  The question McCoy raises: Might Obama’s global policies, much derided here, actually extend the American “century” deep into the twenty-first? Tom
> Grandmaster of the Great Game 
> Obama’s Geopolitical Strategy for Containing China 
> By Alfred W. McCoy <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.tomdispatch.com_authors_alfredmccoy&d=AwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=GTj5L6VrUn65_IDefGdFXxO3nhAu86cP8Ca8VlxVqIk&s=8u7rGWQNeZRM1IcHU94j36q1t4tyxM27xD_QrI99f20&e=>
> In ways that have eluded Washington pundits and policymakers, President Barack Obama is deploying a subtle geopolitical strategy that, if successful, might give Washington a fighting chance to extend its global hegemony deep into the twenty-first century. After six years of silent, sometimes secret preparations, the Obama White House has recently unveiled some bold diplomatic initiatives whose sum is nothing less than a tri-continental strategy to check Beijing’s rise. As these moves unfold, Obama is revealing himself as one of those rare grandmasters who appear every generation or two with an ability to go beyond mere foreign policy and play that ruthless global game called geopolitics.
> Since he took office in 2009, Obama has faced an unremitting chorus of criticism, left and right, domestic and foreign, dismissing him as hapless, even hopeless. “He's a poor ignoramus; he should read and study a little to understand reality," said <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.reuters.com_article_2009_03_22_us-2Dvenezuela-2Dobama-2DidUSTRE52L19G20090322-3FfeedType-3DRSS-26feedName-3DtopNews-26rpc-3D22-26sp-3Dtrue_Venezuela-27s&d=AwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=GTj5L6VrUn65_IDefGdFXxO3nhAu86cP8Ca8VlxVqIk&s=FbpDRyAnyVcdbWK0-o1sSNCs0VlutmPFHPkQiuM03_Y&e=> Venezuela’s leftist president Hugo Chavez, just months after Obama’s inauguration. “I think he has projected a position of weakness and... a lack of leadership,” claimed <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.theguardian.com_world_2012_oct_22_mccain-2Dgraham-2Dobama-2Dforeign-2Dpolicy&d=AwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=GTj5L6VrUn65_IDefGdFXxO3nhAu86cP8Ca8VlxVqIk&s=57m38RlDDxtm8WNMMY5UhSaH9rFR20zEJ-yVxub7QEI&e=> Republican Senator John McCain in 2012. “After six years,” op <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dailysignal.com_2015_04_10_cartoon-2Dobamas-2Dcriticism-2Dof-2Dwalker-2Don-2Dforeign-2Dpolicy_&d=AwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=GTj5L6VrUn65_IDefGdFXxO3nhAu86cP8Ca8VlxVqIk&s=ZzXFcW4lRw7puM8noYb_thaX-vwZTVv5zAODA94F9W0&e=>
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