[Peace-discuss] Proposal

Wed Apr 13 22:33:17 EDT 2016

Correction: I meant to write "astounding analysis” in the second paragraph below.

-mkb
On Apr 13, 2016, at 9:30 PM, Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu<mailto:brussel at illinois.edu>> wrote:

Quoting:  When some of us say "9/11 doesn't matter", we mean that our opinion of who is responsible for the killing of over 3,000 people here in the US, doesn't change anything, not that those lives don't matter. What we do think matters is the thousands upon thousands that the US has been killing, with little coverage by the media. That matters because we hope that if the American people know and understand what we are doing and why, we might be able to prevent it's continuance.

And so with this rationale, who was responsible for the “ holocaust  doesn’t really matter, nor who caused the Iraq wars, the Libya debacle, the Ruanda  massacres, in fact almost anything that occurred in the past doesn’t matter, since knowledge of who was responsible for all this “doesn’t change anything (for whomever)”?? . Quite an as analysis(?) to come from being “AWARE”.

Indeed, if we really knew that Israel was behind the 9/11 disaster, would it not affect future policy here and abroad?
A true knowledge of the causes of historical events does affect future events.

—mkb

On Apr 13, 2016, at 7:53 PM, Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com<mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>> wrote:

As one of the seven active members of AWARE, and the most outspoken on this topic, amongst the group. Let me clarify:

Objections to S.Francis being on the program were due to his labeling and smearing "the Jewish people" for the attacks on 9/11. Just as he has done on this Peace Discuss List, in the past. None of us were concerned with the issue of 9/11. That being said, we do focus, as was intended by AWARE's creators on "Anti-war, anti-racism", the issue of racism taking a back seat to anti-war only because there are other groups focused on the race issue, while none in the area other than AWARE are focusing on war. There are other reasons as well, and to be clear, we were a group divided.

I'm not referring to the wars of the past, but those we are facing in the present and future. They are of course all connected, history of behavior does matter.

When some of us say "9/11 doesn't matter", we mean that our opinion of who is responsible for the killing of over 3,000 people here in the US, doesn't change anything, not that those lives don't matter. What we do think matters is the thousands upon thousands that the US has been killing, with little coverage by the media. That matters because we hope that if the American people know and understand what we are doing and why, we might be able to prevent it's continuance.

Focusing on "ourselves as victims" of 9/11 offers no solutions. Let the experts do their research, let all documents be released and discuss it amongst your peers as you like, but don't expect the American people to rise up against oppression when the "truth of 9/11" is revealed. We have enough abuse occurring on a daily basis, that needs to be challenged and is sometimes covered by the corporate owned  media. I won't go into the topic of "identity politics" or even address the " class system" and "capitalism" in this statement.

What we, the American people, need to focus on is  our own behavior, that's the only thing we can control. The crimes against humanity for which we are responsible if we turn away and ignore, makes us as guilty as the perpetrators, for allowing  what is done in our name. In preventing the deaths of thousands upon thousands,  keep in mind some of those lives could be our own.

________________________________

From: Peace-discuss <peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net>> on behalf of Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>>
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 12:52 PM
To: Karen Medina
Cc: Peace Discuss
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Proposal

Regarding this statement:

* We do often talk about U.S. support for Israel and Saudi Arabia -- seemingly the closest friends of the United States -- as we exchange money, weapons, and military training; But the reason for this even coming into the conversation is again the actions of OUR government, not that we are anti-(other countries).

Do “we" not talk about the repression by Israel of the Palestinians, the attacks on Gaza, Lebanon, Iran, Syria… and other policies of Israel that we deplore? Strange that in replying to Stephen Daniel with otherwise admirable remarks, you insert this statement which I don’t believe holds wrt AWARE folks, the “we” of your remark.

Also, we may not be “anti- other countries", but we can be anti- what their governments and perhaps most of their people do and support.

Just a thought… The statement doesn’t apply to me.

—mkb

On Apr 13, 2016, at 12:22 PM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:

correction:
Sophisticated-sounding political arguments that intricately navigate through idealistic and well-intentioned discourse play well on chat screens, but wilt under the light of good ole plain 'follow the money'  and analyzing who benefits,  in getting to the root of the system we rail against.
Investigations look for objective facts that fit patterns and care not who or what becomes the final target and eventual conclusions. I want names of people who can be prosecuted and put behind bars.
9/11 was a criminal attack on the US by Neocon Zionists to further theirs and Israel's goals in the Middle East and ... the 19 hijackers were patsies just as Oswald was a patsy in Kennedy's assassination. There are hundreds of pieces of evidence supporting this, if you look for them.
Yesterday, I created a partial list of Neocon Zionists from my work on the internet that totalled over 500 people, but the list was so long (or something?) that this (Peace-discuss) site system blocked it as spam...so I just dropped the idea...but it is available on the net with no spam issues whatsoever.
This is REAL investigation.

On Wednesday, April 13, 2016 11:45 AM, Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com<mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>> wrote:

Sophisticated-sounding political arguments that intricately navigate through idealistic and well-intentioned discourse play well on chat screens, but wilt under the light of good ole plain 'follow the money'  and analyzing who benefits,  in getting to the root of the system we rail against.
Investigations look for objective facts that fit patterns and care not who or what becomes the final target and eventual conclusions. I want names of people who can be prosecuted and put behind bars.
Yesterday, I created a partial list of Neocon Zionists from my work on the internet that totalled over 500 people, but the list was so long (or something?) that this (Peace-discuss) site system blocked it as spam...so I just dropped the idea...but it is available on the net with no spam issues whatsoever.
This is REAL investigation.

On Wednesday, April 13, 2016 11:17 AM, Karen Medina <kmedina67 at gmail.com<mailto:kmedina67 at gmail.com>> wrote:

As an anti-war activist:
* I am interested in stopping the atrocities that my country is perpetuating.
* I am not interested in provoking animosity toward people of other countries.
* We do often talk about U.S. support for Israel and Saudi Arabia -- seemingly the closest friends of the United States -- as we exchange money, weapons, and military training; But the reason for this even coming into the conversation is again the actions of OUR government, not that we are anti-(other countries).
* Working to change the current actions of the United States government is the sole responsibility of the citizens of the the United States: Classism, "Christian" extremism, exceptionalism, environmental destruction, and the mentality of "we are rich and powerful so we should tell those other countries who is boss" are the message that our current decision-makers in the United States are hearing.
The anti-war voice needs to focus on these issues.

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