[Peace-discuss] Proposal

Thu Apr 14 08:27:00 EDT 2016

 Carl, you put it so well, thank you. 

Mort, my attempt to keep it simple, obviously failed. My goal was to explain that we Americans seem to think that as we are "exceptional" and any  crime against us, is a major concern, by us I mean our hallowed halls of Wall Street. The thousands whom we are killing now, that we are responsible for killing, should be our main concern. That is something we actually could do something about changing. 

Your accusation that I am saying the Holocaust doesn't matter is beyond ridiculous. In fact, if we open our eyes we would see that we, Americans are living in the Berlin of the early thirties, turning away from crimes against others, because we aren't them. The arrogance of white elites.

Here is another simple, really simple example:

When we constantly cry over who is responsible for 9/11, we're like the bully in the playground screaming that "Johnny hit me". No mention of the fact that he, the bully, had been hitting Johnny for four years or so, as well as several other of the children he had been hitting for years. That's not to say that its okay, that Johnny hit the bully, but for parents and teachers who ignored the bullying by the big kid, to suddenly take notice because one kid, maybe his Dad was the Chairman of the Board thus he was considered "exceptional" is not solving the problem. They allowed the abuse to continue for so long and now they want to punish Johnny for taking the matter into his own hands, wrong though it maybe, is not justice and doesn't solve the problem.

As to the mystery surrounding 9/11. Please tell me how will it change anything if we discover our leaders are responsible for such a treasonous act? Has Kissinger been incarcerated, Bush or Cheney, Obama, the list goes on. No, in fact, one those responsible for the deaths and destruction in Libya, and Honduras, is now running for President with support from many Americans who support identity politics, because they must be clueless as to her crimes.
________________________________________
From: Peace-discuss <peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net> on behalf of C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 6:04 AM
To: Roger Helbig
Cc: Brussel, Morton K; Peace Discuss
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Proposal

"I think this is a very hard choice, but the price — we think the price is worth it.”
--Stated on CBS's 60 Minutes (May 12, 1996) in reply to Lesley Stahl's question "We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?" Albright was U.S. ambassador to the United Nations at the time. [Wikiquote]

> On Apr 14, 2016, at 3:29 AM, Roger Helbig <rwhelbig at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Half a million children - nonsense - and where is this alleged quote
> in something reputable instead of a on-line blog -
>
> Roger
>
> On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 8:32 PM, C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss
> <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> Certainly, it would be interesting to know if (e.g.) the US vice-president or the Mossad promoted the crimes of 9/11/2001 - I think it unlikely but not impossible.
>>
>> But the attacks themselves were counter-attacks in the long US war for domination of the Mideast and its energy resources. The Bush I and Clinton (I?) administrations had killed many (a half million children in Iraq alone, said Clinton's SoS).
>>
>> And 9/11 didn’t change much in that war.  When the US invaded Iraq two years later - the greatest crime of the 21st century - 9/11 was not a factor in US propaganda, even though the Bush administration was facing the largest anti-war demonstrations in history, because the US couldn't make a plausible case for an Iraq connection to 9/11; they had to lie about WMD instead.
>>
>> There’s little doubt about Israeli government Schadenfreude over 9/11. (In 2008, Netanyahu said, “We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq. [The events] swung American public opinion in our favor.”) But there is a lot of confusion about the relation of the US and Israeli governments. Here’s what seems to me a good summary: <https://chomsky.info/20060328/>.
>>
>> AWARE was founded to encourage opposition to decades of killing by the US government in support of the world economic hegemony of the US 1% - what George Kennan called (in 1949) “maintaining the disparity." It was clear that the crimes of 9/11 would be employed in the propaganda for what became the subsequent Bush-Obama(-Clinton?) wars, so an accurate analysis of the context in which they occurred was and remains essential. But like the US wars in SE Asia, the ongoing wars in SW Asia are crimes, not mistakes - not something the US was tricked into.
>>
>> —CGE
>>
>>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 9:33 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Correction: I meant to write "astounding analysis” in the second paragraph below.
>>>
>>> -mkb
>>>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 9:30 PM, Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Quoting:  When some of us say "9/11 doesn't matter", we mean that our opinion of who is responsible for the killing of over 3,000 people here in the US, doesn't change anything, not that those lives don't matter. What we do think matters is the thousands upon thousands that the US has been killing, with little coverage by the media. That matters because we hope that if the American people know and understand what we are doing and why, we might be able to prevent it's continuance.
>>>>
>>>> And so with this rationale, who was responsible for the “ holocaust  doesn’t really matter, nor who caused the Iraq wars, the Libya debacle, the Ruanda  massacres, in fact almost anything that occurred in the past doesn’t matter, since knowledge of who was responsible for all this “doesn’t change anything (for whomever)”?? . Quite an as analysis(?) to come from being “AWARE”.
>>>>
>>>> Indeed, if we really knew that Israel was behind the 9/11 disaster, would it not affect future policy here and abroad?
>>>> A true knowledge of the causes of historical events does affect future events.
>>>>
>>>> —mkb
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 7:53 PM, Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> As one of the seven active members of AWARE, and the most outspoken on this topic, amongst the group. Let me clarify:
>>>>>
>>>>> Objections to S.Francis being on the program were due to his labeling and smearing "the Jewish people" for the attacks on 9/11. Just as he has done on this Peace Discuss List, in the past. None of us were concerned with the issue of 9/11. That being said, we do focus, as was intended by AWARE's creators on "Anti-war, anti-racism", the issue of racism taking a back seat to anti-war only because there are other groups focused on the race issue, while none in the area other than AWARE are focusing on war. There are other reasons as well, and to be clear, we were a group divided.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not referring to the wars of the past, but those we are facing in the present and future. They are of course all connected, history of behavior does matter.
>>>>>
>>>>> When some of us say "9/11 doesn't matter", we mean that our opinion of who is responsible for the killing of over 3,000 people here in the US, doesn't change anything, not that those lives don't matter. What we do think matters is the thousands upon thousands that the US has been killing, with little coverage by the media. That matters because we hope that if the American people know and understand what we are doing and why, we might be able to prevent it's continuance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Focusing on "ourselves as victims" of 9/11 offers no solutions. Let the experts do their research, let all documents be released and discuss it amongst your peers as you like, but don't expect the American people to rise up against oppression when the "truth of 9/11" is revealed. We have enough abuse occurring on a daily basis, that needs to be challenged and is sometimes covered by the corporate owned  media. I won't go into the topic of "identity politics" or even address the " class system" and "capitalism" in this statement.
>>>>>
>>>>> What we, the American people, need to focus on is  our own behavior, that's the only thing we can control. The crimes against humanity for which we are responsible if we turn away and ignore, makes us as guilty as the perpetrators, for allowing  what is done in our name. In preventing the deaths of thousands upon thousands,  keep in mind some of those lives could be our own.
>>>>> From: Peace-discuss <peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net> on behalf of Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 12:52 PM
>>>>> To: Karen Medina
>>>>> Cc: Peace Discuss
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Proposal
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding this statement:
>>>>>
>>>>> * We do often talk about U.S. support for Israel and Saudi Arabia -- seemingly the closest friends of the United States -- as we exchange money, weapons, and military training; But the reason for this even coming into the conversation is again the actions of OUR government, not that we are anti-(other countries).
>>>>>
>>>>> Do “we" not talk about the repression by Israel of the Palestinians, the attacks on Gaza, Lebanon, Iran, Syria… and other policies of Israel that we deplore? Strange that in replying to Stephen Daniel with otherwise admirable remarks, you insert this statement which I don’t believe holds wrt AWARE folks, the “we” of your remark.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, we may not be “anti- other countries", but we can be anti- what their governments and perhaps most of their people do and support.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a thought… The statement doesn’t apply to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> —mkb
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 12:22 PM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> correction:
>>>>>> Sophisticated-sounding political arguments that intricately navigate through idealistic and well-intentioned discourse play well on chat screens, but wilt under the light of good ole plain 'follow the money'  and analyzing who benefits,  in getting to the root of the system we rail against.
>>>>>> Investigations look for objective facts that fit patterns and care not who or what becomes the final target and eventual conclusions. I want names of people who can be prosecuted and put behind bars.
>>>>>> 9/11 was a criminal attack on the US by Neocon Zionists to further theirs and Israel's goals in the Middle East and ... the 19 hijackers were patsies just as Oswald was a patsy in Kennedy's assassination. There are hundreds of pieces of evidence supporting this, if you look for them.
>>>>>> Yesterday, I created a partial list of Neocon Zionists from my work on the internet that totalled over 500 people, but the list was so long (or something?) that this (Peace-discuss) site system blocked it as spam...so I just dropped the idea...but it is available on the net with no spam issues whatsoever.
>>>>>> This is REAL investigation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2016 11:45 AM, Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sophisticated-sounding political arguments that intricately navigate through idealistic and well-intentioned discourse play well on chat screens, but wilt under the light of good ole plain 'follow the money'  and analyzing who benefits,  in getting to the root of the system we rail against.
>>>>>> Investigations look for objective facts that fit patterns and care not who or what becomes the final target and eventual conclusions. I want names of people who can be prosecuted and put behind bars.
>>>>>> Yesterday, I created a partial list of Neocon Zionists from my work on the internet that totalled over 500 people, but the list was so long (or something?) that this (Peace-discuss) site system blocked it as spam...so I just dropped the idea...but it is available on the net with no spam issues whatsoever.
>>>>>> This is REAL investigation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2016 11:17 AM, Karen Medina <kmedina67 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As an anti-war activist:
>>>>>> * I am interested in stopping the atrocities that my country is perpetuating.
>>>>>> * I am not interested in provoking animosity toward people of other countries.
>>>>>> * We do often talk about U.S. support for Israel and Saudi Arabia -- seemingly the closest friends of the United States -- as we exchange money, weapons, and military training; But the reason for this even coming into the conversation is again the actions of OUR government, not that we are anti-(other countries).
>>>>>> * Working to change the current actions of the United States government is the sole responsibility of the citizens of the the United States: Classism, "Christian" extremism, exceptionalism, environmental destruction, and the mentality of "we are rich and powerful so we should tell those other countries who is boss" are the message that our current decision-makers in the United States are hearing.
>>>>>> The anti-war voice needs to focus on these issues.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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