[Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 147, Issue 27

Thu Apr 14 08:35:03 EDT 2016

Der Antisemitismus ist der Sozialismus der dummen Kerle (“Antisemitism is the socialism of fools”).
 —a common saying of 19th c. social democrats, commonly attributed to August Bebel (1840-1913), who attributed it to Ferdinand Kronawetter

> On Apr 14, 2016, at 7:06 AM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> 
> To Carl,
> You're trying to diminish and dilute the importance of 9/11 by elevating Bill Clinton's role in Iraq, but the argument doesn't hold water.
> It was and is a very well kept secret that 500,000 children died under the Oil for Food scandal. No Patriot Act or DHS-like structures were created from that horrific revelation. Falujah (DU mutations) has about the same status. It has never been compared to Pearl Harbor as 9/11 has. Madeline Allbright said it was necessary.
> Clinton was an important part of the run-up to 9/11. His cabinet and administration was rife with J....ish persons (Cohen, Albright, Ross, Emanuel, Perle...etc). Clinton's role in the explosion African-Americans imprisoned and the deregulation of banks is just now starting to come to light as Hillary comes under scrutiny.
> Clinton was just a waterboy for the global elites invasion of the Middle East.
> 
> 
> On Thursday, April 14, 2016 5:36 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" <peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> 
> 
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Proposal (C. G. Estabrook)
>   2. Re: Proposal (Roger Helbig)
>   3. Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 147, Issue 26 (Stephen Francis)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 22:32:01 -0500
> From: "C. G. Estabrook" <carl at newsfromneptune.com>
> To: "Brussel, Morton K" <brussel at illinois.edu>
> Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Proposal
> Message-ID: <7AD6FE24-A812-4C69-B63E-1656C8860E68 at newsfromneptune.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> 
> Certainly, it would be interesting to know if (e.g.) the US vice-president or the Mossad promoted the crimes of 9/11/2001 - I think it unlikely but not impossible.
> 
> But the attacks themselves were counter-attacks in the long US war for domination of the Mideast and its energy resources. The Bush I and Clinton (I?) administrations had killed many (a half million children in Iraq alone, said Clinton's SoS).
> 
> And 9/11 didn’t change much in that war.  When the US invaded Iraq two years later - the greatest crime of the 21st century - 9/11 was not a factor in US propaganda, even though the Bush administration was facing the largest anti-war demonstrations in history, because the US couldn't make a plausible case for an Iraq connection to 9/11; they had to lie about WMD instead.
> 
> There’s little doubt about Israeli government Schadenfreude over 9/11. (In 2008, Netanyahu said, “We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq. [The events] swung American public opinion in our favor.”) But there is a lot of confusion about the relation of the US and Israeli governments. Here’s what seems to me a good summary: <https://chomsky.info/20060328/>.
> 
> AWARE was founded to encourage opposition to decades of killing by the US government in support of the world economic hegemony of the US 1% - what George Kennan called (in 1949) “maintaining the disparity." It was clear that the crimes of 9/11 would be employed in the propaganda for what became the subsequent Bush-Obama(-Clinton?) wars, so an accurate analysis of the context in which they occurred was and remains essential. But like the US wars in SE Asia, the ongoing wars in SW Asia are crimes, not mistakes - not something the US was tricked into. 
> 
> —CGE
> 
> > On Apr 13, 2016, at 9:33 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> > 
> > Correction: I meant to write "astounding analysis” in the second paragraph below. 
> > 
> > -mkb
> >> On Apr 13, 2016, at 9:30 PM, Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu> wrote:
> >> 
> >> Quoting:  When some of us say "9/11 doesn't matter", we mean that our opinion of who is responsible for the killing of over 3,000 people here in the US, doesn't change anything, not that those lives don't matter. What we do think matters is the thousands upon thousands that the US has been killing, with little coverage by the media. That matters because we hope that if the American people know and understand what we are doing and why, we might be able to prevent it's continuance.
> >> 
> >> And so with this rationale, who was responsible for the “ holocaust  doesn’t really matter, nor who caused the Iraq wars, the Libya debacle, the Ruanda  massacres, in fact almost anything that occurred in the past doesn’t matter, since knowledge of who was responsible for all this “doesn’t change anything (for whomever)”?? . Quite an as analysis(?) to come from being “AWARE”. 
> >> 
> >> Indeed, if we really knew that Israel was behind the 9/11 disaster, would it not affect future policy here and abroad?  
> >> A true knowledge of the causes of historical events does affect future events. 
> >> 
> >> —mkb
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 7:53 PM, Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> As one of the seven active members of AWARE, and the most outspoken on this topic, amongst the group. Let me clarify:
> >>> 
> >>> Objections to S.Francis being on the program were due to his labeling and smearing "the Jewish people" for the attacks on 9/11. Just as he has done on this Peace Discuss List, in the past. None of us were concerned with the issue of 9/11. That being said, we do focus, as was intended by AWARE's creators on "Anti-war, anti-racism", the issue of racism taking a back seat to anti-war only because there are other groups focused on the race issue, while none in the area other than AWARE are focusing on war. There are other reasons as well, and to be clear, we were a group divided.
> >>> 
> >>> I'm not referring to the wars of the past, but those we are facing in the present and future. They are of course all connected, history of behavior does matter.
> >>> 
> >>> When some of us say "9/11 doesn't matter", we mean that our opinion of who is responsible for the killing of over 3,000 people here in the US, doesn't change anything, not that those lives don't matter. What we do think matters is the thousands upon thousands that the US has been killing, with little coverage by the media. That matters because we hope that if the American people know and understand what we are doing and why, we might be able to prevent it's continuance.
> >>> 
> >>> Focusing on "ourselves as victims" of 9/11 offers no solutions. Let the experts do their research, let all documents be released and discuss it amongst your peers as you like, but don't expect the American people to rise up against oppression when the "truth of 9/11" is revealed. We have enough abuse occurring on a daily basis, that needs to be challenged and is sometimes covered by the corporate owned  media. I won't go into the topic of "identity politics" or even address the " class system" and "capitalism" in this statement.  
> >>> 
> >>> What we, the American people, need to focus on is  our own behavior, that's the only thing we can control. The crimes against humanity for which we are responsible if we turn away and ignore, makes us as guilty as the perpetrators, for allowing  what is done in our name. In preventing the deaths of thousands upon thousands,  keep in mind some of those lives could be our own.
> >>> From: Peace-discuss <peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net> on behalf of Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 12:52 PM
> >>> To: Karen Medina
> >>> Cc: Peace Discuss
> >>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Proposal
> >>>  
> >>> Regarding this statement:
> >>> 
> >>> * We do often talk about U.S. support for Israel and Saudi Arabia -- seemingly the closest friends of the United States -- as we exchange money, weapons, and military training; But the reason for this even coming into the conversation is again the actions of OUR government, not that we are anti-(other countries). 
> >>> 
> >>> Do “we" not talk about the repression by Israel of the Palestinians, the attacks on Gaza, Lebanon, Iran, Syria… and other policies of Israel that we deplore? Strange that in replying to Stephen Daniel with otherwise admirable remarks, you insert this statement which I don’t believe holds wrt AWARE folks, the “we” of your remark. 
> >>> 
> >>> Also, we may not be “anti- other countries", but we can be anti- what their governments and perhaps most of their people do and support. 
> >>> 
> >>> Just a thought… The statement doesn’t apply to me.
> >>> 
> >>> —mkb