[Peace-discuss] [Peace] Who do we BLAME? Part 40517.

Fri Apr 7 07:47:41 UTC 2017

I never quite understand what all of you are arguing about.  All I know for
sure is that every "leader" in the world, throughout human history - except
for those precious few who (1) were democratically elected, and (2) possess
a modicum of integrity, humility, and perspective - wants to keep his/her
power, and doesn't care how many civilians s/he kills to do so.

Given that there is a civil war raging in Syria among various factions,
Assad would be killing his own people in order to retain power regardless
of whether Russia and/or America was involved.  I don't have to be a mind
reader or a close personal friend of Assad to know that retaining power is
more important to him than the lives of the Syrian people.  Whether or not
we intervene is at least as much of a practical question as a moral one.

And it's a moot point because pResident tRump has chosen to bomb.

John Wason

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace <
peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

Belden,
>
> You don’t know  god damn thing about what has happened in Syria, what is
> happening there, and your so-called argument is worse than asinine. You
> have become an apologist for war—you, a human rights advocate. Shame!!!
>
> —mkb
>
>
> On Apr 6, 2017, at 8:03 PM, Fields, A Belden <a-fields at illinois.edu>
> wrote:
>
> I would only point out that when Assad was asked by the press many months
> ago about his air force's use of barrel bombs in residential areas, which
> killed and maimed many civilians, his reply was "a bomb is a bomb. It makes
> no difference."  He is clearly willing to use any weapons at his disposal
> regardless of  the cost in civilian lives--by HIS OWN WORDS.
> No, the investigation is not yet done.  But we have heard him loud and
> clear, anything is fair in this war regardless of humans suffering and
> international law. Yes, the US has caused enormous suffering and violated
> human rights itself.  But Chomsky is  right.  Assad is a nasty piece of
> work and it ill suits people on the Left to pretend otherwise.
>
> Belden
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Peace [peace-bounces at lists.chambana.net] on behalf of Brussel,
> Morton K via Peace [peace at lists.chambana.net]
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 06, 2017 4:19 PM
> *To:* Karen Aram
> *Cc:* peace; Peace-discuss AWARE
> *Subject:* Re: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Who do we BLAME? Part 40517.
>
> I certainly don’t know Assad’s mind and actions, how he is
> running/defending his country (or is it his country?). Does Chomsky? What
> does he clearly know about what is taking place in Syria?
> So I commend you Karen for”going against the Chomsky grain in this matter.
> As to the gas attack, if that is what it was, a commentary by Gareth Porter
> is helpful:
>  https://consortiumnews.com/2017/04/05/another-dangerous-
> rush-to-judgment-in-syria/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__consortiumnews.com_2017_04_05_another-2Ddangerous-2Drush-2Dto-2Djudgment-2Din-2Dsyria_&d=DwMGaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=LVFD2C1RI2rrPDmI3Syk2CwuxmoT24PnP4L8nmF9sOM&m=d5pv-fy0lKzIdkrZ_LKgEuJ_k1FuOozQystq3I4flcw&s=1MDhUs946mapM512HrDHYhvSp4IzZ5XEuHHzaS0Cho0&e=>
>
>
> On Apr 6, 2017, at 6:27 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net>
> wrote:
>
> I disagree with Noam Chomsky’s assessment of Russia, having only one ally.
> Iran is also an ally, in the Med. This is very important and it’s
> geopolitical. As to Syria, he failed to look at the history of US
> involvement in Syria, just going along with mainstream US assessment that
> Assad is horrible, maybe he is, but look what we have done, we’ve had a
> presence in Syria, covertly under the Obama administration, not really,
> just not as openly as now under Trump and the Pentagon.
>
> I know, “who am I to disagree with Chomsky” , hey I disagree with
> Presidents and the Pope when I think they’re wrong.
>
> See Wm. Blum et al.
>
> On Apr 5, 2017, at 18:36, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace <
> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
> NOAM CHOMSKY: Syria is a horrible catastrophe. The Assad regime is a moral
> disgrace. They’re carrying out horrendous acts, the Russians with them.
>
> AMY GOODMAN: Why the Russians with them?
>
> NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, pretty simple reason: Syria is their one ally in the
> whole region. Not a close ally, but they do have—their one Mediterranean
> base is in Syria. It’s the one country that’s more or less cooperated with
> them. And they don’t want to lose their one ally. It’s very ugly, but
> that’s what’s happening.
>
> Meanwhile, there have been—it’s kind of like the North Korean case we were
> discussing. There have been possible opportunities to terminate the
> horrors. In 2012, there was an initiative from the Russians, which was not
> pursued, so we don’t know how serious it was, but it was a proposal to—for
> a negotiated settlement, in which Assad would be phased out, not
> immediately. You know, you can’t tell them, "We’re going to murder you.
> Please negotiate." That’s not going to work. But some system in which, in
> the course of negotiations, he would be removed, and some kind of
> settlement would be made. The West would not accept it, not just the United
> States. France, England, the United States simply refused to even consider
> it. At the time, they believed they could overthrow Assad, so they didn’t
> want to do this, so the war went on. Could it have worked? You never know
> for sure. But it could have been pursued. Meanwhile, Qatar and Saudi Arabia
> are supporting jihadi groups, which are not all that different from ISIS.
> So you have a horror story on all sides. The Syrian people are being
> decimated.
>
> AMY GOODMAN: And the U.S. now sending 400 more troops to Syria. But if the
> U.S. has a better relationship with Russia, could that change everything?
>
> NOAM CHOMSKY: It could lead to some kind of accommodation in which a
> negotiated diplomatic settlement would be implemented, which would by no
> means be lovely, but it would at least cut down the level of violence,
> which is critical, because the country is simply being destroyed. It’s
> descending to suicide.
>
>
> On Apr 5, 2017, at 7:54 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
> "Another Dangerous Rush to Judgment in Syria” | April 5, 2017
> The U.S. government and the mainstream media rushed to judgment again,
> blaming the Syrian government for a new poison-gas attack and ignoring
> other possibilities, reports Robert Parry.
>
> https://consortiumnews.com/2017/04/05/another-dangerous-
> rush-to-judgment-in-syria/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__consortiumnews.com_2017_04_05_another-2Ddangerous-2Drush-2Dto-2Djudgment-2Din-2Dsyria_&d=DwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=0OxnMtE8UUT3iZeVLUCrLdMjgRbaTaVh37XwFNWg0HI&s=XcNMV1_e4GlthG1UHtWsrzJ8szoh6hofEHEjf2oFBqM&e=>
>
>
> On Apr 5, 2017, at 6:00 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
> Good question.
>
> "Only fake news sub-zoology specimens can possibly believe Damascus would
> profit from staging a chemical attack just a few hours after the St.
> Petersburg metro tragedy. The timing is NOT accidental. No wonder
> hysterical block to block ‘coverage' in NATO-controlled MSM - actually
> editorials, blaming Damascus without any investigation whatsoever." [Pepe
> Escobar]
>
> "Rebel warehouse with chem weapons hit by Syrian airstrike in Idlib” <
> https://www.rt.com/news/383522-syria-idlib-warehouse-strike-chemical/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.rt.com_news_383522-2Dsyria-2Didlib-2Dwarehouse-2Dstrike-2Dchemical_&d=DwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=0OxnMtE8UUT3iZeVLUCrLdMjgRbaTaVh37XwFNWg0HI&s=AWb4BIPdclQsfQV-AKcyP3aS3A7pjz8nolPgnPNMB5M&e=>
> >
>
> Here are reports from US propaganda sources that suggest what may have
> happened:
>
> "Russia blames deadly Syrian gassing on rebels' own chemical arsenal” <
> http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-blames-syria-
> gassing-leak-rebels-own-chemical-arsenal-n742791
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.nbcnews.com_news_world_russia-2Dblames-2Dsyria-2Dgassing-2Dleak-2Drebels-2Down-2Dchemical-2Darsenal-2Dn742791&d=DwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=0OxnMtE8UUT3iZeVLUCrLdMjgRbaTaVh37XwFNWg0HI&s=_tFqPVdPHbm97EvJ4k_88CIQmu4V6ulexu930ckfRs0&e=>
> >
>
> "Idlib Attack Aimed at Disrupting Talks, U.N. Envoy Says” <
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/idlib-attack-aimed-at-
> disrupting-talks-u-n-envoy-says-1491325155?tesla=y
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.wsj.com_articles_idlib-2Dattack-2Daimed-2Dat-2Ddisrupting-2Dtalks-2Du-2Dn-2Denvoy-2Dsays-2D1491325155-3Ftesla-3Dy&d=DwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=0OxnMtE8UUT3iZeVLUCrLdMjgRbaTaVh37XwFNWg0HI&s=TN73zc2h_rbjVD9esZFNOubL8Sk1geIWPOLk-057YPA&e=>
> >
>
> Cui bono? Whose interests are being served by disrupting the talks? The
> Syrian government's military predominance over the rebels (established with
> Russia's help) could be recognized in Geneva. The Assad government would
> seem to have no motive for committing a war crime, but its enemies would
> certainly have a motive for saying it did.
>
> —CGE
>
>
> On Apr 5, 2017, at 5:07 PM, Szoke, Ron via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
> Trump White House responds to Syrian gas attack by blaming the Obama
> administration
>
> <Hunter.jpeg>
> By Hunter
> Daily Kos, Tuesday Apr 04, 2017 · 12:22 PM CDT
>
> Donald Trump repeatedly claimed, during the campaign, that the various bad
> actors on the world stage were only daring to commit aggressions and
> atrocities because our current leaders were "weak." Today's chemical
> weapons attack by Syrian forces against Syrian civilians will be one of his
> team's first true foreign policy tests: they quickly proved themselves to
> up to the task.
> White House press secretary Sean Spicer told reporters Tuesday that a gas
> attack in a rebel-controlled area of Syria was perpetrated by the forces
> tied to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and are a "consequence of the past
> administration's weakness and irresolution." [...]
> "Today's chemical attack in Syria against innocent people including women
> and children is reprehensible and cannot be ignored by the civilized
> world," Spicer said. "These heinous actions by the Bashar al-Assad regime
> are a consequence of the past administration's weakness and irresolution."
> This may be the first official White House condemnation of the use of
> chemical weapons to be affixed to a direct political attack on a previous
> president. The move makes it appear that the White House is more concerned
> with dodging responsibility for responding to the Syrian attack than they
> are with the use of the weapons themselves.
> It is likely that the Trump team has not mapped out an American response
> to the attacks—especially because of the Trump campaign and transition
> eagerness to pursue a Russia-friendly compromise in Syria despite Russia's
> backing of the regime that perpetrated these attacks. Actual Secretary of
> State Rex Tillerson, for his part, is so far again absent from the
> discussion.
>
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