From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 00:00:53 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 18:00:53 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 In-Reply-To: References: <795D395D-B752-41A3-82ED-32B7DC7FEB1A@gmail.com> <979452964.4663360.1512052774015@mail.yahoo.com> <7AF7A515-7D8F-4C6E-A8A6-85E851F33882@gmail.com> Message-ID: <391EDF48-9F73-4F61-9B6F-E675353E7C1A@gmail.com> Karen, have you bought ‘Russiagate,' the political establishment’s attempt to distract people from the anti-war movement? > On Nov 30, 2017, at 9:55 AM, Karen Medina via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Poor Carl, the idea of countering real, fake, or imagined impeachment > efforts has driven him to distraction. > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 1 00:19:22 2017 From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 00:19:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 In-Reply-To: References: <1275289966.5523896.1512082034732@mail.yahoo.com> <1715360317.5525883.1512084011899@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <604601066.5559360.1512087562076@mail.yahoo.com> Your reply represents exactly what I'm talking about.There is a huge difference between "Of course we support BDS, we’ve spoken on this many times" and UofM's actual accomplishment. In the article it states" "Authored by Students Allied for Freedom and Equality (SAFE), the resolution took more than a decade to pass, after a sustained effort by Palestinian students and a wide range of allies across campus and around the country.The coalition supporting the passage of the resolution included over 40 different student organizations, 20 members of University of Michigan faculty, and large numbers of students and alumni.There is nothing even close to this effort at the UofI....because of the Jewish power structure that raises its head (like the Salaita affair) and anything else that goes against their grain. AWARE is under their thumb. As far as 9/11 and the Holocaust goes...it's the same thing. I will debate both these issues anytime or anyplace, but it is you who refuse to debate me. You hide behind the considerable power and effectiveness of ad hominem attacks to stifle any sort of scientific and objective dialectic on those issues. I'll have to admit it works and I've given up on bringing up these issues locally. But Internationally, the debate is alive and well and the Jewish community is reeling from the dramatic increase in 'antiSemitic vitriol. On Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:27 PM, Karen Aram wrote: Of course we support BDS, we’ve spoken on this many times. Do you know the difference between opposing Israeli foreign policy and anti-semitism?   So there we have it, Carl, the American people have been drinking the kool aide so long, we have to be very clear and precise, and even then they won’t comprehend what we’re saying if we muddle our messages with “its not Trumps fault, blame the other guys, but blame Obama for everything.  I refuse to look like a Republican.  On Nov 30, 2017, at 15:20, Stephen Francis wrote: Would AWARE support this UofMichigan effort: .... NO! no way.... you'd find some way to dodge it. University of Michigan Students Pass Israel Divestment Resolution, Signaling Momentum Among Larger Schools http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/42739-university-michigan-students-pass-israel-divestment-resolution-signaling-momentum-among-larger-schools On Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:12 PM, Karen Aram wrote: Our “favorite” anti-semite is back folks.  Good grief, Stephen, AWARE is not a pro Israeli fake antiwar organization, we take a lot of grief for criticizing Israel, what drugs are you on? Usually its just your rant blaming Jews for 9/11 or denying the Holocaust ever happened. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. On Nov 30, 2017, at 14:47, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: Professor Boyle,Your post on Wexler that included the following sentence must have crossed the 'anti-Semitic' line and consequently got no response.... predictably."As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel."AWARE is a basically a pro-Israel fake antiwar organization that fails (by design) to get to the real issues... that you so eloquently pointed out above. It is utterly taboo to give any serious thought or worlds to the real crimes of the Israeli government and its Jewish supremacists.A story like the one below would also receive no traction:ANALYSIS: Will Netanyahu risk exposing one of Israel’s secrets?  | | | | | | | | | | | ANALYSIS: Will Netanyahu risk exposing one of Israel’s secrets? New law would tell Palestinian citizens in Israel that they are not equal, say experts | | | | On Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:36 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" wrote: Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to     peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net You can reach the person managing the list at     peace-discuss-owner at lists.chambana.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Re: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes,       Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians.       (Boyle, Francis A)   2. Re: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes,       Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians.       (Boyle, Francis A) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:33:57 +0000 From: "Boyle, Francis A" To: 'David Green' , "Miller, Joseph Thomas"     , "'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com'"     , "'peace-discuss at anti-war.net'"     , "'C. G. ESTABROOK'"     , "'a-fields at uiuc.edu'" ,     'Joe Lauria' ,     "'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net'"     ,     "'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net'"     , "Szoke, Ron"     , 'Arlene Hickory' , 'Karen     Aram' , "'abass10 at gmail.com'"     , "'mickalideh at gmail.com'" ,     'Lina Thorne' , "'chicago at worldcantwait.net'"     , 'Jay' , 'David     Johnson' , 'Mildred O'brien'     , "'C G Estabrook'" Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli     War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color  at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had  the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty  Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against  Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:33:57 +0000 From: "Boyle, Francis A" To: 'David Green' , "Miller, Joseph Thomas"     , "'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com'"     , "'peace-discuss at anti-war.net'"     , "'C. G. ESTABROOK'"     , "'a-fields at uiuc.edu'" ,     'Joe Lauria' ,     "'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net'"     ,     "'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net'"     , "Szoke, Ron"     , 'Arlene Hickory' , 'Karen     Aram' , "'abass10 at gmail.com'"     , "'mickalideh at gmail.com'" ,     'Lina Thorne' , "'chicago at worldcantwait.net'"     , 'Jay' , 'David     Johnson' , 'Mildred O'brien'     , "'C G Estabrook'" Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli     War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color  at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had  the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty  Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against  Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss ------------------------------ End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 *********************************************** _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C85857c977a0c40ede92108d538450c0a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476791556968242&sdata=DGk2cH1Ym9DBL3DnifJWCkC5QkCmeM4ItBL4SDiQg3k%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 00:27:44 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 18:27:44 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 In-Reply-To: <604601066.5559360.1512087562076@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1275289966.5523896.1512082034732@mail.yahoo.com> <1715360317.5525883.1512084011899@mail.yahoo.com> <604601066.5559360.1512087562076@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <14801D5B-B394-4977-B6C9-DCF82ED22660@gmail.com> A good account of what happened at Michigan: . > On Nov 30, 2017, at 6:19 PM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Your reply represents exactly what I'm talking about. > There is a huge difference between "Of course we support BDS, we’ve spoken on this many times" and UofM's actual accomplishment. In the article it states" > "Authored by Students Allied for Freedom and Equality (SAFE), the resolution took more than a decade to pass, after a sustained effort by Palestinian students and a wide range of allies across campus and around the country. > The coalition supporting the passage of the resolution included over 40 different student organizations, 20 members of University of Michigan faculty, and large numbers of students and alumni. > There is nothing even close to this effort at the UofI....because of the Jewish power structure that raises its head (like the Salaita affair) and anything else that goes against their grain. AWARE is under their thumb. > As far as 9/11 and the Holocaust goes...it's the same thing. I will debate both these issues anytime or anyplace, but it is you who refuse to debate me. You hide behind the considerable power and effectiveness of ad hominem attacks to stifle any sort of scientific and objective dialectic on those issues. I'll have to admit it works and I've given up on bringing up these issues locally. But Internationally, the debate is alive and well and the Jewish community is reeling from the dramatic increase in 'antiSemitic vitriol. > > > > On Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:27 PM, Karen Aram wrote: > > > Of course we support BDS, we’ve spoken on this many times. Do you know the difference between opposing Israeli foreign policy and anti-semitism? > > So there we have it, Carl, the American people have been drinking the kool aide so long, we have to be very clear and precise, and even then they won’t comprehend what we’re saying if we muddle our messages with “its not Trumps fault, blame the other guys, but blame Obama for everything. > > I refuse to look like a Republican. > > >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 15:20, Stephen Francis wrote: >> >> Would AWARE support this UofMichigan effort: .... NO! no way.... you'd find some way to dodge it. >> University of Michigan Students Pass Israel Divestment Resolution, Signaling Momentum Among Larger Schools >> http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/42739-university-michigan-students-pass-israel-divestment-resolution-signaling-momentum-among-larger-schools >> >> >> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:12 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >> >> >> Our “favorite” anti-semite is back folks. >> >> Good grief, Stephen, AWARE is not a pro Israeli fake antiwar organization, we take a lot of grief for criticizing Israel, what drugs are you on? Usually its just your rant blaming Jews for 9/11 or denying the Holocaust ever happened. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. >> >> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 14:47, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> Professor Boyle, >>> Your post on Wexler that included the following sentence must have crossed the 'anti-Semitic' line and consequently got no response.... predictably. >>> "As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." >>> AWARE is a basically a pro-Israel fake antiwar organization that fails (by design) to get to the real issues... that you so eloquently pointed out above. It is utterly taboo to give any serious thought or worlds to the real crimes of the Israeli government and its Jewish supremacists. >>> A story like the one below would also receive no traction: >>> ANALYSIS: Will Netanyahu risk exposing one of Israel’s secrets? >>> >>> ANALYSIS: Will Netanyahu risk exposing one of Israel’s secrets? >>> New law would tell Palestinian citizens in Israel that they are not equal, say experts >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:36 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" wrote: >>> >>> >>> Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to >>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> peace-discuss-owner at lists.chambana.net >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..." >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Re: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, >>> Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>> (Boyle, Francis A) >>> 2. Re: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, >>> Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>> (Boyle, Francis A) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:33:57 +0000 >>> From: "Boyle, Francis A" >>> To: 'David Green' , "Miller, Joseph Thomas" >>> , "'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com'" >>> , "'peace-discuss at anti-war.net'" >>> , "'C. G. ESTABROOK'" >>> , "'a-fields at uiuc.edu'" , >>> 'Joe Lauria' , >>> "'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net'" >>> , >>> "'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net'" >>> , "Szoke, Ron" >>> , 'Arlene Hickory' , 'Karen >>> Aram' , "'abass10 at gmail.com'" >>> , "'mickalideh at gmail.com'" , >>> 'Lina Thorne' , "'chicago at worldcantwait.net'" >>> , 'Jay' , 'David >>> Johnson' , 'Mildred O'brien' >>> , "'C G Estabrook'" >>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli >>> War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >>> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, >>> including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >>> >>> And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Law Building >>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>> (personal comments only) >>> >>> From: Boyle, Francis A >>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM >>> To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' >>> Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>> >>> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >>> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, >>> including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >>> >>> Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. >>> fab >>> >>> Hey! Hey! >>> Wexler Say! >>> How many women! >>> Did you kill today! >>> In Palestine! >>> >>> Hey! Hey! >>> Wexler say! >>> How many kids! >>> Did you kill today! >>> In Palestine! >>> >>> Hey! Hey! >>> Wexler Say! >>> How many Dads! >>> Did you kill today! >>> In Palestine! >>> Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies >>> Friday, March 09, 2012 >>> Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. >>> >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Law Building >>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>> (personal comments only) >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:33:57 +0000 >>> From: "Boyle, Francis A" >>> To: 'David Green' , "Miller, Joseph Thomas" >>> , "'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com'" >>> , "'peace-discuss at anti-war.net'" >>> , "'C. G. ESTABROOK'" >>> , "'a-fields at uiuc.edu'" , >>> 'Joe Lauria' , >>> "'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net'" >>> , >>> "'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net'" >>> , "Szoke, Ron" >>> , 'Arlene Hickory' , 'Karen >>> Aram' , "'abass10 at gmail.com'" >>> , "'mickalideh at gmail.com'" , >>> 'Lina Thorne' , "'chicago at worldcantwait.net'" >>> , 'Jay' , 'David >>> Johnson' , 'Mildred O'brien' >>> , "'C G Estabrook'" >>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli >>> War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >>> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, >>> including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >>> >>> And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Law Building >>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>> (personal comments only) >>> >>> From: Boyle, Francis A >>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM >>> To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' >>> Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>> >>> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >>> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, >>> including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >>> >>> Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. >>> fab >>> >>> Hey! Hey! >>> Wexler Say! >>> How many women! >>> Did you kill today! >>> In Palestine! >>> >>> Hey! Hey! >>> Wexler say! >>> How many kids! >>> Did you kill today! >>> In Palestine! >>> >>> Hey! Hey! >>> Wexler Say! >>> How many Dads! >>> Did you kill today! >>> In Palestine! >>> Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies >>> Friday, March 09, 2012 >>> Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. >>> >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Law Building >>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>> (personal comments only) >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Subject: Digest Footer >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 >>> *********************************************** >>> From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 1 00:40:04 2017 From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 00:40:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 In-Reply-To: <14801D5B-B394-4977-B6C9-DCF82ED22660@gmail.com> References: <1275289966.5523896.1512082034732@mail.yahoo.com> <1715360317.5525883.1512084011899@mail.yahoo.com> <604601066.5559360.1512087562076@mail.yahoo.com> <14801D5B-B394-4977-B6C9-DCF82ED22660@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2023303607.5569680.1512088804681@mail.yahoo.com> What's your point?This is just a story supporting SAFE's effort...What I'm saying is that there is nothing comparable to this at the UofI because AWARE sucks the life out of any effective activist effort and diverts it to those silly street demos in downtown Champaign.... that's old school...beyond dumb... ineffective.... a display of impotence and incompetence. The UofM's effort reached a worldwide audience...AWARE's effort was seen by a few farmers (bless their Trump nationalist souls) and shoppers goin' out to the mall. On Thursday, November 30, 2017 6:27 PM, C G Estabrook wrote: A good account of what happened at Michigan: . > On Nov 30, 2017, at 6:19 PM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Your reply represents exactly what I'm talking about. > There is a huge difference between "Of course we support BDS, we’ve spoken on this many times" and UofM's actual accomplishment. In the article it states" > "Authored by Students Allied for Freedom and Equality (SAFE), the resolution took more than a decade to pass, after a sustained effort by Palestinian students and a wide range of allies across campus and around the country. > The coalition supporting the passage of the resolution included over 40 different student organizations, 20 members of University of Michigan faculty, and large numbers of students and alumni. > There is nothing even close to this effort at the UofI....because of the Jewish power structure that raises its head (like the Salaita affair) and anything else that goes against their grain. AWARE is under their thumb. > As far as 9/11 and the Holocaust goes...it's the same thing. I will debate both these issues anytime or anyplace, but it is you who refuse to debate me. You hide behind the considerable power and effectiveness of ad hominem attacks to stifle any sort of scientific and objective dialectic on those issues. I'll have to admit it works and I've given up on bringing up these issues locally. But Internationally, the debate is alive and well and the Jewish community is reeling from the dramatic increase in 'antiSemitic vitriol. > > > > On Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:27 PM, Karen Aram wrote: > > > Of course we support BDS, we’ve spoken on this many times. Do you know the difference between opposing Israeli foreign policy and anti-semitism?  > > So there we have it, Carl, the American people have been drinking the kool aide so long, we have to be very clear and precise, and even then they won’t comprehend what we’re saying if we muddle our messages with “its not Trumps fault, blame the other guys, but blame Obama for everything. > > I refuse to look like a Republican. > > >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 15:20, Stephen Francis wrote: >> >> Would AWARE support this UofMichigan effort: .... NO! no way.... you'd find some way to dodge it. >> University of Michigan Students Pass Israel Divestment Resolution, Signaling Momentum Among Larger Schools >> http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/42739-university-michigan-students-pass-israel-divestment-resolution-signaling-momentum-among-larger-schools >> >> >> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:12 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >> >> >> Our “favorite” anti-semite is back folks. >> >> Good grief, Stephen, AWARE is not a pro Israeli fake antiwar organization, we take a lot of grief for criticizing Israel, what drugs are you on? Usually its just your rant blaming Jews for 9/11 or denying the Holocaust ever happened. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. >> >> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 14:47, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> Professor Boyle, >>> Your post on Wexler that included the following sentence must have crossed the 'anti-Semitic' line and consequently got no response.... predictably. >>> "As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." >>> AWARE is a basically a pro-Israel fake antiwar organization that fails (by design) to get to the real issues... that you so eloquently pointed out above. It is utterly taboo to give any serious thought or worlds to the real crimes of the Israeli government and its Jewish supremacists. >>> A story like the one below would also receive no traction: >>> ANALYSIS: Will Netanyahu risk exposing one of Israel’s secrets? >>> >>> ANALYSIS: Will Netanyahu risk exposing one of Israel’s secrets? >>> New law would tell Palestinian citizens in Israel that they are not equal, say experts >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:36 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" wrote: >>> >>> >>> Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to >>>    peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>    https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>    peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>    peace-discuss-owner at lists.chambana.net >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..." >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>>  1. Re: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, >>>      Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>>      (Boyle, Francis A) >>>  2. Re: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, >>>      Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>>      (Boyle, Francis A) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:33:57 +0000 >>> From: "Boyle, Francis A" >>> To: 'David Green' , "Miller, Joseph Thomas" >>>    , "'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com'" >>>    , "'peace-discuss at anti-war.net'" >>>    , "'C. G. ESTABROOK'" >>>    , "'a-fields at uiuc.edu'" , >>>    'Joe Lauria' , >>>    "'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net'" >>>    , >>>    "'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net'" >>>    , "Szoke, Ron" >>>    , 'Arlene Hickory' , 'Karen >>>    Aram' , "'abass10 at gmail.com'" >>>    , "'mickalideh at gmail.com'" , >>>    'Lina Thorne' , "'chicago at worldcantwait.net'" >>>    , 'Jay' , 'David >>>    Johnson' , 'Mildred O'brien' >>>    , "'C G Estabrook'" >>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli >>>    War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>> Message-ID: >>>    >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >>> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, >>> including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >>> >>> And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color  at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Law Building >>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>> (personal comments only) >>> >>> From: Boyle, Francis A >>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM >>> To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' >>> Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>> >>> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >>> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, >>> including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >>> >>> Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had  the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty  Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against  Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. >>> fab >>> >>> Hey! Hey! >>> Wexler Say! >>> How many women! >>> Did you kill today! >>> In Palestine! >>> >>> Hey! Hey! >>> Wexler say! >>> How many kids! >>> Did you kill today! >>> In Palestine! >>> >>> Hey! Hey! >>> Wexler Say! >>> How many Dads! >>> Did you kill today! >>> In Palestine! >>> Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies >>> Friday, March 09, 2012 >>> Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. >>> >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Law Building >>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>> (personal comments only) >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:33:57 +0000 >>> From: "Boyle, Francis A" >>> To: 'David Green' , "Miller, Joseph Thomas" >>>    , "'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com'" >>>    , "'peace-discuss at anti-war.net'" >>>    , "'C. G. ESTABROOK'" >>>    , "'a-fields at uiuc.edu'" , >>>    'Joe Lauria' , >>>    "'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net'" >>>    , >>>    "'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net'" >>>    , "Szoke, Ron" >>>    , 'Arlene Hickory' , 'Karen >>>    Aram' , "'abass10 at gmail.com'" >>>    , "'mickalideh at gmail.com'" , >>>    'Lina Thorne' , "'chicago at worldcantwait.net'" >>>    , 'Jay' , 'David >>>    Johnson' , 'Mildred O'brien' >>>    , "'C G Estabrook'" >>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli >>>    War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>> Message-ID: >>>    >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >>> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, >>> including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >>> >>> And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color  at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Law Building >>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>> (personal comments only) >>> >>> From: Boyle, Francis A >>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM >>> To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' >>> Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>> >>> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >>> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, >>> including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >>> >>> Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had  the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty  Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against  Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. >>> fab >>> >>> Hey! Hey! >>> Wexler Say! >>> How many women! >>> Did you kill today! >>> In Palestine! >>> >>> Hey! Hey! >>> Wexler say! >>> How many kids! >>> Did you kill today! >>> In Palestine! >>> >>> Hey! Hey! >>> Wexler Say! >>> How many Dads! >>> Did you kill today! >>> In Palestine! >>> Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies >>> Friday, March 09, 2012 >>> Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. >>> >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Law Building >>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>> (personal comments only) >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Subject: Digest Footer >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 >>> *********************************************** >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Fri Dec 1 00:59:36 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 00:59:36 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Message-ID: "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} "Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us {Americans} into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Women! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Kids! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! UI Law Profs Say! How many People! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:34 AM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: RE: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Fri Dec 1 00:59:36 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 00:59:36 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Message-ID: "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} "Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us {Americans} into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Women! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Kids! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! UI Law Profs Say! How many People! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:34 AM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: RE: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 01:16:57 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 19:16:57 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 In-Reply-To: <2023303607.5569680.1512088804681@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1275289966.5523896.1512082034732@mail.yahoo.com> <1715360317.5525883.1512084011899@mail.yahoo.com> <604601066.5559360.1512087562076@mail.yahoo.com> <14801D5B-B394-4977-B6C9-DCF82ED22660@gmail.com> <2023303607.5569680.1512088804681@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I wish AWARE were able to "suck the life out of any effective activist effort.” Talent like that shouldn’t be wasted. But contempt for farmers and shoppers doesn’t seem like an effective way to build an anti-war movement. Those farmers and shoppers elected a president. And the political establishment is now working hysterically to make sure he’s followin the war and econmic policies of the Obama-Clinton administration. We should be attacking those murderous policies. > On Nov 30, 2017, at 6:40 PM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: > > What's your point? > This is just a story supporting SAFE's effort... > What I'm saying is that there is nothing comparable to this at the UofI because AWARE sucks the life out of any effective activist effort and diverts it to those silly street demos in downtown Champaign.... that's old school...beyond dumb... ineffective.... a display of impotence and incompetence. > The UofM's effort reached a worldwide audience...AWARE's effort was seen by a few farmers (bless their Trump nationalist souls) and shoppers goin' out to the mall. > > > On Thursday, November 30, 2017 6:27 PM, C G Estabrook wrote: > > > A good account of what happened at Michigan: . > From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 1 01:30:29 2017 From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 01:30:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 In-Reply-To: References: <1275289966.5523896.1512082034732@mail.yahoo.com> <1715360317.5525883.1512084011899@mail.yahoo.com> <604601066.5559360.1512087562076@mail.yahoo.com> <14801D5B-B394-4977-B6C9-DCF82ED22660@gmail.com> <2023303607.5569680.1512088804681@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <366021401.5592152.1512091829528@mail.yahoo.com> Again your comments support my contention...You've changed the subject to Obama....and just given UofM's BDS effort meaningless lip-service.Why is UofI's activist community so comparatively ineffective? On Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:17 PM, C G Estabrook wrote: I wish AWARE were able to "suck the life out of any effective activist effort.” Talent like that shouldn’t be wasted. But contempt for farmers and shoppers doesn’t seem like an effective way to build an anti-war movement. Those farmers and shoppers elected a president. And the political establishment is now working hysterically to make sure he’s followin the war and econmic policies of the Obama-Clinton administration. We should be attacking those murderous policies.  > On Nov 30, 2017, at 6:40 PM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: > > What's your point? > This is just a story supporting SAFE's effort... > What I'm saying is that there is nothing comparable to this at the UofI because AWARE sucks the life out of any effective activist effort and diverts it to those silly street demos in downtown Champaign.... that's old school...beyond dumb... ineffective.... a display of impotence and incompetence. > The UofM's effort reached a worldwide audience...AWARE's effort was seen by a few farmers (bless their Trump nationalist souls) and shoppers goin' out to the mall. > > > On Thursday, November 30, 2017 6:27 PM, C G Estabrook wrote: > > > A good account of what happened at Michigan: . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 01:59:21 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 19:59:21 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 In-Reply-To: <366021401.5592152.1512091829528@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1275289966.5523896.1512082034732@mail.yahoo.com> <1715360317.5525883.1512084011899@mail.yahoo.com> <604601066.5559360.1512087562076@mail.yahoo.com> <14801D5B-B394-4977-B6C9-DCF82ED22660@gmail.com> <2023303607.5569680.1512088804681@mail.yahoo.com> <366021401.5592152.1512091829528@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Racial asthenia? > On Nov 30, 2017, at 7:30 PM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Again your comments support my contention... > You've changed the subject to Obama....and just given UofM's BDS effort meaningless lip-service. > Why is UofI's activist community so comparatively ineffective? > > > > On Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:17 PM, C G Estabrook wrote: > > > I wish AWARE were able to "suck the life out of any effective activist effort.” Talent like that shouldn’t be wasted. > > But contempt for farmers and shoppers doesn’t seem like an effective way to build an anti-war movement. Those farmers and shoppers elected a president. > > And the political establishment is now working hysterically to make sure he’s followin the war and econmic policies of the Obama-Clinton administration. > > We should be attacking those murderous policies. > > > > On Nov 30, 2017, at 6:40 PM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > > What's your point? > > This is just a story supporting SAFE's effort... > > What I'm saying is that there is nothing comparable to this at the UofI because AWARE sucks the life out of any effective activist effort and diverts it to those silly street demos in downtown Champaign.... that's old school...beyond dumb... ineffective.... a display of impotence and incompetence. > > The UofM's effort reached a worldwide audience...AWARE's effort was seen by a few farmers (bless their Trump nationalist souls) and shoppers goin' out to the mall. > > > > > > On Thursday, November 30, 2017 6:27 PM, C G Estabrook wrote: > > > > > > A good account of what happened at Michigan: . > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 03:02:53 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:02:53 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles" Message-ID: <843DA840-196D-4B10-9266-1026C467F790@gmail.com> http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/donald-trump-steve-bannon-alt-right-bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-anti-capitalism-together-a8076501.html "Bannon aims to lead a populist revolt of underprivileged people against the elites – he is taking Trump’s message of a government by and for the people more literally than Trump himself dares to do. That’s why Bannon is worth his weight in gold: he is a permanent reminder of the antagonism that cuts across the Republican Party.” From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 1 13:23:33 2017 From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 13:23:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 In-Reply-To: References: <1275289966.5523896.1512082034732@mail.yahoo.com> <1715360317.5525883.1512084011899@mail.yahoo.com> <604601066.5559360.1512087562076@mail.yahoo.com> <14801D5B-B394-4977-B6C9-DCF82ED22660@gmail.com> <2023303607.5569680.1512088804681@mail.yahoo.com> <366021401.5592152.1512091829528@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1482970528.200004.1512134613203@mail.yahoo.com> First, I need to correct something...I misused the term "antiSemitic vitriol"... that is a term a Jew would use to complain about someone attempting to expose Jewish crimes, not the other way around ... it should have been worded "expose Jewish/Israel/Zionist crimes against humanity"....and the word 'antiSemitic' is packed with deliberate obfuscation to cloak its real meaning which is 'Jewish hatred'.... I'm not antiSemitic...I'm anti-Criminal... the treatment of the Palestinians is the tip of the iceberg.  Also, I did not denigrate 'farmers'... middle-American nationalist conservative Christians, of which farmers are an important segment, saved our country by voting for Trump which denied Clinton the office. and the term "racial asthenia" is nonsensical in the context of this discussion...and another attempt to skirt the question: "Why is UofI's activist community so comparatively ineffective?" on BDS, that is....And why has no one followed up on Professor Boyle's comments about warmongering Zionists....it's because AWARE is a closet pro-Israel fake antiwar organization.... that has no reach beyond the corner of Main and Neil streets...this could change if it became internalized and acted upon. On Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:59 PM, C G Estabrook wrote: Racial asthenia? > On Nov 30, 2017, at 7:30 PM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Again your comments support my contention... > You've changed the subject to Obama....and just given UofM's BDS effort meaningless lip-service. > Why is UofI's activist community so comparatively ineffective? > > > > On Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:17 PM, C G Estabrook wrote: > > > I wish AWARE were able to "suck the life out of any effective activist effort.” Talent like that shouldn’t be wasted. > > But contempt for farmers and shoppers doesn’t seem like an effective way to build an anti-war movement. Those farmers and shoppers elected a president. > > And the political establishment is now working hysterically to make sure he’s followin the war and econmic policies of the Obama-Clinton administration. > > We should be attacking those murderous policies.  > > > > On Nov 30, 2017, at 6:40 PM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > > What's your point? > > This is just a story supporting SAFE's effort... > > What I'm saying is that there is nothing comparable to this at the UofI because AWARE sucks the life out of any effective activist effort and diverts it to those silly street demos in downtown Champaign.... that's old school...beyond dumb... ineffective.... a display of impotence and incompetence. > > The UofM's effort reached a worldwide audience...AWARE's effort was seen by a few farmers (bless their Trump nationalist souls) and shoppers goin' out to the mall. > > > > > > On Thursday, November 30, 2017 6:27 PM, C G Estabrook wrote: > > > > > > A good account of what happened at Michigan: . > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Fri Dec 1 14:27:16 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 14:27:16 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh The Nazis Had Their Law Professors Too American Law Professors What have we become? American Law Professors for torture! American Law Professors for Gitmo Kangaroo Courts! American Law Professors for indefinite detention! American Law Professors for spying! American Law Professors for drone strikes! American Law Professors for murder! American Law Professors for assassinations! American Law Professors for war crimes! American Law Professors for crimes against humanity! American Law Professors for genocide! American Law Professors for wars of aggression! American Law Professors for murdering U.S. citizens! American Law Professors for murder courts! American Law Professors for trashing the U.S. Constitution! American Law Professors for trashing the Bill of Rights! American Law Professors for trashing International Law! American Law Professors for trashing Human Rights! How much lower can American Law Professors sink Into this criminal scheisse Of Nazi Legal Nihilism? The Nazis had their Law Professors too The worst of the bunch was Carl Schmitt Now we have: American Law Professors For Carl Schmitt! Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh Now at Berkeley Law too With Chaired John Yoo1 Killer Koh's poo Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:00 PM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} "Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us {Americans} into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Women! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Kids! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! UI Law Profs Say! How many People! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:34 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) ________________________________ 1 One of President Bushie Jr's most notorious torture lawyers and war criminals and a student of Harold Killer Koh at Yale Law School. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Fri Dec 1 14:27:16 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 14:27:16 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh The Nazis Had Their Law Professors Too American Law Professors What have we become? American Law Professors for torture! American Law Professors for Gitmo Kangaroo Courts! American Law Professors for indefinite detention! American Law Professors for spying! American Law Professors for drone strikes! American Law Professors for murder! American Law Professors for assassinations! American Law Professors for war crimes! American Law Professors for crimes against humanity! American Law Professors for genocide! American Law Professors for wars of aggression! American Law Professors for murdering U.S. citizens! American Law Professors for murder courts! American Law Professors for trashing the U.S. Constitution! American Law Professors for trashing the Bill of Rights! American Law Professors for trashing International Law! American Law Professors for trashing Human Rights! How much lower can American Law Professors sink Into this criminal scheisse Of Nazi Legal Nihilism? The Nazis had their Law Professors too The worst of the bunch was Carl Schmitt Now we have: American Law Professors For Carl Schmitt! Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh Now at Berkeley Law too With Chaired John Yoo1 Killer Koh's poo Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:00 PM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} "Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us {Americans} into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Women! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Kids! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! UI Law Profs Say! How many People! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:34 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) ________________________________ 1 One of President Bushie Jr's most notorious torture lawyers and war criminals and a student of Harold Killer Koh at Yale Law School. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 15:30:49 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 09:30:49 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 In-Reply-To: <79E98898-2334-4AC8-A46A-5DF443B185C1@illinois.edu> References: <43mdh89ujps6va4v9ls6r2iu.1512081161628@email.lge.com> <79E98898-2334-4AC8-A46A-5DF443B185C1@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <4CBC7FFA-D0AC-40E0-8230-EA03A53E8FF8@gmail.com> "American centrism [e.g., Obama-Clinton foreign and domestic policy] is far from its death-bed: to believe otherwise is to prolong its life-span even further. There is no hint of exhaustion in the ferocity of its siege of Trump, and little probability that the legacy it is busy consecrating will have anything to do, even inadvertently, with a vigorous radicalism, rather than perpetuating a devout conformism. In such conditions a clean break is required with celebrity culture and its fixation on the alternative political incarnations of it. Writing before the election, Benjamin Kunkel observed of Clinton’s outlook: ‘Trump himself became the national emergency, rather than the stagnation, inequality and perceived decline that made Trump and Bernie plausible candidates in the first place.’ A fortiori today.” > —CGE > On Nov 30, 2017, at 5:13 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Trump was the first major-party presidential candidate in 40 years to criticize the neoconservative (more war) and neoliberal (more inequality) policies followed by all recent administrations. > That got him elected: >. > > But comments like that in the campaign so affrighted the major prowar neocons like Robert Kagan that they fled the Republicans to back Clinton, a reliable warmonger: > >. > > The US political establishment, which since WWII has used war-making to maintain the profits of the US economic elite, was hysterical to bring Trump back to neocon (pro-war) and neolib (pro-Wall St.) orthodoxy, and they seem to have succeeded. > > But it’s the vicious war policy that has led the US to kill between 20 and 30 million people around the world since WWII - in Korea, Latin America, Southeast Asia (Vietnam), and now Southwest Asia and Africa. > > That’s why I say “Trump is not the problem (US war-making is)" - as if Trump's replacement by Vice-President Pence (or even by Clinton) would alter the killing that’s been the policy of all recent administrations. It’s the on-going policy - US war-making - that has to be opposed. The establishment opposition to Trump is disingenuous - it simply seeks a less potentially erratic war-monger. > > Regards, CGE > > >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 4:37 PM, Harry Mickalide via Peace > wrote: >> >> Also, I'll echo Karen, saying "Trump is not the problem" will pretty much turn off everyone who correctly sees that Trump is terrible and is a big problem. >> >> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 4:33 PM, bjornsona at ameritech.net > wrote: >> Re flyer. I like term "war On many nations " vs. war in many nations" ? >> >> Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> >> ------ Original message------ >> From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss >> Date: Thu, Nov 30, 2017 3:57 PM >> To: Karen Aram; >> Cc: Karen Aram via Peace-discuss;Harry Mickalide;Peace; >> Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 >> >> You might keep it simple by observing, "Trump is not the problem, US war-making is." >> >> Or, "Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around the globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation.” >> >> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 1:15 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: >>> >>> Harry is correct, keeping it simple is best, not my skill set. He is also correct that focus on the monetary cost of war and intervention to US domestic social services, including healthcare, education, etc. appeals to most people, so should always be mentioned. A total focus on costs of war, isn’t really us, but it does need to be mentioned. >>> >>> How can we overlook the genocide taking place in Yemen, or the slavery in Libya of Black Africans as a result of the US destruction of that nation in 2011. It’s now being used as a cause for military intervention, again, basically bringing more troops in than those we’ve already had there. >>> >>> Trump has announced more troops in Afghanistan, and Col. Larry Wilkerson has predicted we will be there forever, due to China’s economic progress in that region. >>> >>> Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around the globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation. >>> >>> In relation to Africa (the sahel, in particular) the fourteen nations previously colonized by France, and again being recolonized by way of military occupation, the US is involved in all, because the French military is incapable, just as is the Saudi military, without US military technical, and logistical support. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:40, Carl G. Estabrook > wrote: >>>> >>>> The US should in fact be spending much more on war than the current military budget - paying reparations for the damage we've done and the people we’ve killed in the wars of the current generation. >>>> >>>> But it’s not the case that war spending means we can’t afford universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income. >>>> >>>> The USG can’t run out of money. No one refuses a check signed by the US government. —CGE >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 12:31 PM, Harry Mickalide via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I still think a better simpler flyer would look like this: >>>>> >>>>> Projected annual cost for universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income: $X >>>>> >>>>> Annual military budget: $600 billion >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Karen Aram via Peace > wrote: >>>>> Yes, it is a distraction, and I have argued this point with those who suggest it, other than for war, which no one suggests, and actually might be worthwhile. >>>>> >>>>> However, I’ll say it again, it’s totally counterproductive to the anti-war movement and our demonstration. >>>>> >>>>> I have another appointment on Saturday so don’t plan to attend our demonstration. >>>>> >>>>> End of conversation on this topic, on my part. >>>>> >>>>> PS Even Peter Lavalle of Crosstalk, who supported Trump vs. Hillary, has now stated emphatically, "he is glad Hillary is not President, but he in no way supports Trump given what he is doing.” >>>>> >>>>> > On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:42, C G Estabrook > wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > I agree that we should focus on "what the USG is doing in respect to war.” >>>>> > >>>>> > That’s why ‘Impeach Trump’ is a distraction - a purposeful distraction, by the those calling for continuity in US fp and war-making. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> We should be informing people, when it comes to flyers, of what the USG is doing. >>>>> >> Most Americans aren’t aware that we are in eight wars, with potential for two more. >>>>> >> Oh yes, they all know how awful the N. Korean leader is, they all fear Iran having nuclear weapons, but do they know there is a solution to the N. Korean problem, one for which we the US could implement, but refuses to do so. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Do the American people know that we are in the process of savaging Africa, again? >>>>> >> Do they know the US is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Carl, these are all things you have talked about, and placed in flyers before. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Focusing on individuals to blame, is a tactic that alienates and divides a people. If you were writing an article to be published, or on FB thats one thing, but a flyer representing an organization, should merely paraphrase what the USG is doing in respect to war. >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:03, C G Estabrook > wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> That earlier flyer was meant to combat Obama’s squeaky-clean image, which he was good at fostering while he administered “the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times." >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> > . >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> And see the puff-piece on his 'toughness’: >. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> But I don’t think anyone contends that US world-wide mass murder post-WWII is a matter of presidential caprice, even if they could have acted differently. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Neither Obama nor Trump had to send tens of thousands more troops to Afghanistan (as they did) after running as critics of the war (as they did). >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Condemning and opposing US war-making doesn’t depend on affixing individual responsibility. (Was Truman responsible for Hiroshima? Yes. Alone? No.) >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> —CGE >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 8:39 AM, David Green via Peace > wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> In any event, this language contrasts sharply with a flyer from two years ago, which holds Obama responsible: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> President Obama is making war in eight countries; he is sending American ‘special forces’ into more than 100 countries around the world; he has assassinated thousands by drone - the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times; and he is provoking war with Russia and China. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> I'm not sure how we can justify the difference in tone and substance regarding the warmaking "motivations" of Obama and Trump. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017, 7:06:53 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> Carl >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> No one knows better than I, no one has spoken more about the powers behind the throne than I. I’m the one, with AWARE, who has been making the argument that any President who comes to power, as either a Republican or Democrat is going to implement the foreign policy plan put into place by the Oligarchs behind the throne. One of which was Brzezinski, just to keep it simple. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> As a Green socialist, who does not support the one Party system, Democrat/ Republican, once they get to DC. I have been highlighting the very fact, of the Pentagon, CIA, Council on Foreign Relations, Think Tanks, Corporations and Contractors as those pushing the US war agenda. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> But, to imply that Trump anymore than Obama is an unwitting dope of those who make up the “Deep State” “Military Industrial Complex,” however we wish to refer to them, is a mistake, most especially in the title of a flyer. Whether architects or rubber stamps of our foreign policy, they are all complicit. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> A FLYER is meant to impart information, but no one is going to read it, when it acts as an apology for Trump. He is as vile a creature as Clinton, in that he supported the rhetoric of lies and propaganda against Libya and Gaddafi. He is guilty of bombing Syria, and now provoking war with N Korea and Iran. Yes, he is attempting peace with Russia and China, he knows where a dollar is to be made. Though it matters not, when the plan is war with China, predicted by the Rand Think Tank and Pentagon in to be 2030. Our continued presence of Nato on the border of Russia is not going away. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> Roger has just proved my point. He has assessed us as Trump supporters, in spite of my statement, in spite of David Greens statement. What do you think people will think of AWARE, upon receipt of our flyer? And, as I said, focus on the election in order to bash the Clintons is also of no value. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 18:29, C G Estabrook > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The concentration on Trump is the strategy of the (pro-)War Party (the Pentagon, the 'intelligence community,' the Clinton campaign, the neocons) to force the government to continue the wars and war provocations of the last administrations. They think either Trump can be forced to fall in line with the war policy (as he shown he’s willing to do) under the threat of ‘Russiagate’ - or be replaced (with Pence, a War Party creature). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The anti-war movement has to insist that Trump - the weakest president since Coolidge (“silent Cal,”|who followed the opposite performance strategy to Trump's bluster) - is not the problem, but that the continuing and largely unvaried Clinton-Bush-Obama war-making is. That's the policy that must be resisted. The War Party (who of course support that policy) is using Trump as a distraction from that policy. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We should be opposing the Pentagon, the CIA, the Obama-Clintonists, the neocons, et al., who are promoting war provocations vs. Russia and China - not bothering much with the Potemkin president. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> John Pilger saw it clearly before the election: "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire.” —CGE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Karen Aram via Peace > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I’m sorry, Carl >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either, because the focus on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran are extremely dangerous. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM: >>>>> >>>>>>> ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. Charter. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they - like the German leaders - would be hanged. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most Americans don’t know that. In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, in order to get elected. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they haven’t profited from them. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOME >>>>> >>>>>>> Our representatives in Congress from this area - and their email addresses - are as follows: >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> Representative Rodney Davis: > >>>>> >>>>>>> Senator Tammy Duckworth: > >>>>> >>>>>>> Senator Dick Durbin: > >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> ~~~ >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at >>>>> >>>>>>> ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income ~ >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> >>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>> >>>>>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cfc30480baf2b4882394b08d5376a458e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636475851934473412&sdata=0JBYxrD5cfjQzfDHk4PpLhvWxWn5Ce3B%2FBGNvILHbQI%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>>> Peace mailing list >>>>> >>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>>> >>>>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>> >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=xazvoaiiZfeKwnoLWr0%2BQ7zDKzK11UmSbVoB97gFtjE%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>> Peace mailing list >>>>> >>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>>> >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>> >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C1510d4a9e78e4ab02a0f08d538090865%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476533794287026&sdata=1gLoCzw4EfQ1ZonM6wynHGMKl4R%2FZ9tvCrtiZBxZTpo%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Peace mailing list >>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 15:30:49 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 09:30:49 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 In-Reply-To: <79E98898-2334-4AC8-A46A-5DF443B185C1@illinois.edu> References: <43mdh89ujps6va4v9ls6r2iu.1512081161628@email.lge.com> <79E98898-2334-4AC8-A46A-5DF443B185C1@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <4CBC7FFA-D0AC-40E0-8230-EA03A53E8FF8@gmail.com> "American centrism [e.g., Obama-Clinton foreign and domestic policy] is far from its death-bed: to believe otherwise is to prolong its life-span even further. There is no hint of exhaustion in the ferocity of its siege of Trump, and little probability that the legacy it is busy consecrating will have anything to do, even inadvertently, with a vigorous radicalism, rather than perpetuating a devout conformism. In such conditions a clean break is required with celebrity culture and its fixation on the alternative political incarnations of it. Writing before the election, Benjamin Kunkel observed of Clinton’s outlook: ‘Trump himself became the national emergency, rather than the stagnation, inequality and perceived decline that made Trump and Bernie plausible candidates in the first place.’ A fortiori today.” > —CGE > On Nov 30, 2017, at 5:13 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Trump was the first major-party presidential candidate in 40 years to criticize the neoconservative (more war) and neoliberal (more inequality) policies followed by all recent administrations. > That got him elected: >. > > But comments like that in the campaign so affrighted the major prowar neocons like Robert Kagan that they fled the Republicans to back Clinton, a reliable warmonger: > >. > > The US political establishment, which since WWII has used war-making to maintain the profits of the US economic elite, was hysterical to bring Trump back to neocon (pro-war) and neolib (pro-Wall St.) orthodoxy, and they seem to have succeeded. > > But it’s the vicious war policy that has led the US to kill between 20 and 30 million people around the world since WWII - in Korea, Latin America, Southeast Asia (Vietnam), and now Southwest Asia and Africa. > > That’s why I say “Trump is not the problem (US war-making is)" - as if Trump's replacement by Vice-President Pence (or even by Clinton) would alter the killing that’s been the policy of all recent administrations. It’s the on-going policy - US war-making - that has to be opposed. The establishment opposition to Trump is disingenuous - it simply seeks a less potentially erratic war-monger. > > Regards, CGE > > >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 4:37 PM, Harry Mickalide via Peace > wrote: >> >> Also, I'll echo Karen, saying "Trump is not the problem" will pretty much turn off everyone who correctly sees that Trump is terrible and is a big problem. >> >> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 4:33 PM, bjornsona at ameritech.net > wrote: >> Re flyer. I like term "war On many nations " vs. war in many nations" ? >> >> Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> >> ------ Original message------ >> From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss >> Date: Thu, Nov 30, 2017 3:57 PM >> To: Karen Aram; >> Cc: Karen Aram via Peace-discuss;Harry Mickalide;Peace; >> Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 >> >> You might keep it simple by observing, "Trump is not the problem, US war-making is." >> >> Or, "Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around the globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation.” >> >> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 1:15 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: >>> >>> Harry is correct, keeping it simple is best, not my skill set. He is also correct that focus on the monetary cost of war and intervention to US domestic social services, including healthcare, education, etc. appeals to most people, so should always be mentioned. A total focus on costs of war, isn’t really us, but it does need to be mentioned. >>> >>> How can we overlook the genocide taking place in Yemen, or the slavery in Libya of Black Africans as a result of the US destruction of that nation in 2011. It’s now being used as a cause for military intervention, again, basically bringing more troops in than those we’ve already had there. >>> >>> Trump has announced more troops in Afghanistan, and Col. Larry Wilkerson has predicted we will be there forever, due to China’s economic progress in that region. >>> >>> Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around the globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation. >>> >>> In relation to Africa (the sahel, in particular) the fourteen nations previously colonized by France, and again being recolonized by way of military occupation, the US is involved in all, because the French military is incapable, just as is the Saudi military, without US military technical, and logistical support. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:40, Carl G. Estabrook > wrote: >>>> >>>> The US should in fact be spending much more on war than the current military budget - paying reparations for the damage we've done and the people we’ve killed in the wars of the current generation. >>>> >>>> But it’s not the case that war spending means we can’t afford universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income. >>>> >>>> The USG can’t run out of money. No one refuses a check signed by the US government. —CGE >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 12:31 PM, Harry Mickalide via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I still think a better simpler flyer would look like this: >>>>> >>>>> Projected annual cost for universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income: $X >>>>> >>>>> Annual military budget: $600 billion >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Karen Aram via Peace > wrote: >>>>> Yes, it is a distraction, and I have argued this point with those who suggest it, other than for war, which no one suggests, and actually might be worthwhile. >>>>> >>>>> However, I’ll say it again, it’s totally counterproductive to the anti-war movement and our demonstration. >>>>> >>>>> I have another appointment on Saturday so don’t plan to attend our demonstration. >>>>> >>>>> End of conversation on this topic, on my part. >>>>> >>>>> PS Even Peter Lavalle of Crosstalk, who supported Trump vs. Hillary, has now stated emphatically, "he is glad Hillary is not President, but he in no way supports Trump given what he is doing.” >>>>> >>>>> > On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:42, C G Estabrook > wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > I agree that we should focus on "what the USG is doing in respect to war.” >>>>> > >>>>> > That’s why ‘Impeach Trump’ is a distraction - a purposeful distraction, by the those calling for continuity in US fp and war-making. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> We should be informing people, when it comes to flyers, of what the USG is doing. >>>>> >> Most Americans aren’t aware that we are in eight wars, with potential for two more. >>>>> >> Oh yes, they all know how awful the N. Korean leader is, they all fear Iran having nuclear weapons, but do they know there is a solution to the N. Korean problem, one for which we the US could implement, but refuses to do so. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Do the American people know that we are in the process of savaging Africa, again? >>>>> >> Do they know the US is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Carl, these are all things you have talked about, and placed in flyers before. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Focusing on individuals to blame, is a tactic that alienates and divides a people. If you were writing an article to be published, or on FB thats one thing, but a flyer representing an organization, should merely paraphrase what the USG is doing in respect to war. >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:03, C G Estabrook > wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> That earlier flyer was meant to combat Obama’s squeaky-clean image, which he was good at fostering while he administered “the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times." >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> > . >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> And see the puff-piece on his 'toughness’: >. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> But I don’t think anyone contends that US world-wide mass murder post-WWII is a matter of presidential caprice, even if they could have acted differently. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Neither Obama nor Trump had to send tens of thousands more troops to Afghanistan (as they did) after running as critics of the war (as they did). >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Condemning and opposing US war-making doesn’t depend on affixing individual responsibility. (Was Truman responsible for Hiroshima? Yes. Alone? No.) >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> —CGE >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 8:39 AM, David Green via Peace > wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> In any event, this language contrasts sharply with a flyer from two years ago, which holds Obama responsible: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> President Obama is making war in eight countries; he is sending American ‘special forces’ into more than 100 countries around the world; he has assassinated thousands by drone - the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times; and he is provoking war with Russia and China. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> I'm not sure how we can justify the difference in tone and substance regarding the warmaking "motivations" of Obama and Trump. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017, 7:06:53 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> Carl >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> No one knows better than I, no one has spoken more about the powers behind the throne than I. I’m the one, with AWARE, who has been making the argument that any President who comes to power, as either a Republican or Democrat is going to implement the foreign policy plan put into place by the Oligarchs behind the throne. One of which was Brzezinski, just to keep it simple. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> As a Green socialist, who does not support the one Party system, Democrat/ Republican, once they get to DC. I have been highlighting the very fact, of the Pentagon, CIA, Council on Foreign Relations, Think Tanks, Corporations and Contractors as those pushing the US war agenda. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> But, to imply that Trump anymore than Obama is an unwitting dope of those who make up the “Deep State” “Military Industrial Complex,” however we wish to refer to them, is a mistake, most especially in the title of a flyer. Whether architects or rubber stamps of our foreign policy, they are all complicit. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> A FLYER is meant to impart information, but no one is going to read it, when it acts as an apology for Trump. He is as vile a creature as Clinton, in that he supported the rhetoric of lies and propaganda against Libya and Gaddafi. He is guilty of bombing Syria, and now provoking war with N Korea and Iran. Yes, he is attempting peace with Russia and China, he knows where a dollar is to be made. Though it matters not, when the plan is war with China, predicted by the Rand Think Tank and Pentagon in to be 2030. Our continued presence of Nato on the border of Russia is not going away. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> Roger has just proved my point. He has assessed us as Trump supporters, in spite of my statement, in spite of David Greens statement. What do you think people will think of AWARE, upon receipt of our flyer? And, as I said, focus on the election in order to bash the Clintons is also of no value. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 18:29, C G Estabrook > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The concentration on Trump is the strategy of the (pro-)War Party (the Pentagon, the 'intelligence community,' the Clinton campaign, the neocons) to force the government to continue the wars and war provocations of the last administrations. They think either Trump can be forced to fall in line with the war policy (as he shown he’s willing to do) under the threat of ‘Russiagate’ - or be replaced (with Pence, a War Party creature). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The anti-war movement has to insist that Trump - the weakest president since Coolidge (“silent Cal,”|who followed the opposite performance strategy to Trump's bluster) - is not the problem, but that the continuing and largely unvaried Clinton-Bush-Obama war-making is. That's the policy that must be resisted. The War Party (who of course support that policy) is using Trump as a distraction from that policy. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We should be opposing the Pentagon, the CIA, the Obama-Clintonists, the neocons, et al., who are promoting war provocations vs. Russia and China - not bothering much with the Potemkin president. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> John Pilger saw it clearly before the election: "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire.” —CGE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Karen Aram via Peace > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I’m sorry, Carl >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either, because the focus on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran are extremely dangerous. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM: >>>>> >>>>>>> ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. Charter. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they - like the German leaders - would be hanged. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most Americans don’t know that. In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, in order to get elected. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they haven’t profited from them. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOME >>>>> >>>>>>> Our representatives in Congress from this area - and their email addresses - are as follows: >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> Representative Rodney Davis: > >>>>> >>>>>>> Senator Tammy Duckworth: > >>>>> >>>>>>> Senator Dick Durbin: > >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> ~~~ >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at >>>>> >>>>>>> ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income ~ >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> >>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>> >>>>>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cfc30480baf2b4882394b08d5376a458e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636475851934473412&sdata=0JBYxrD5cfjQzfDHk4PpLhvWxWn5Ce3B%2FBGNvILHbQI%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>>> Peace mailing list >>>>> >>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>>> >>>>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>> >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=xazvoaiiZfeKwnoLWr0%2BQ7zDKzK11UmSbVoB97gFtjE%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>> Peace mailing list >>>>> >>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>>> >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>> >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C1510d4a9e78e4ab02a0f08d538090865%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476533794287026&sdata=1gLoCzw4EfQ1ZonM6wynHGMKl4R%2FZ9tvCrtiZBxZTpo%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Peace mailing list >>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 1 17:06:15 2017 From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 17:06:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] censored? References: <1315199613.346706.1512147975557.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1315199613.346706.1512147975557@mail.yahoo.com> Was my last post censored? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Fri Dec 1 17:46:01 2017 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 11:46:01 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] censored? In-Reply-To: <1315199613.346706.1512147975557@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1315199613.346706.1512147975557.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1315199613.346706.1512147975557@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <64BD6049-A618-4B79-9F99-05F9255ED7B7@illinois.edu> Your last post began, "First, I need to correct something…” Was there a later one? > On Dec 1, 2017, at 11:06 AM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Was my last post censored? > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Fri Dec 1 18:01:39 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 18:01:39 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Message-ID: Lesley Wexler is a Professor of Law at the University of Illinois College of Law. Professor Wexler writes, teaches and consults in the public international law fields, especially international humanitarian law, international disaster law, and human rights as well as in the anti-discrimination field more generally. The Illiniwaks College of Law's Resident Expert on how Israel can inflict war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians based upon her first-hand information and observation and exploration in situ. And also an "academic fellow" of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies that is now Campaigning heavily and full time to get Us Americans into a war of extermination against the Islamic Republic of Iran for the benefit of Israel. Such is the Illiniwaks Faculty at the Illiniwaks College of Law-Truly Orwellian! FAB WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH WE ALL LOVE BIG BROTHER REAGAN WAS PRESIDENT IN 1984 KILLER KOH WORKED FOR REAGAN IN 1984 Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 8:27 AM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: RE: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh The Nazis Had Their Law Professors Too American Law Professors What have we become? American Law Professors for torture! American Law Professors for Gitmo Kangaroo Courts! American Law Professors for indefinite detention! American Law Professors for spying! American Law Professors for drone strikes! American Law Professors for murder! American Law Professors for assassinations! American Law Professors for war crimes! American Law Professors for crimes against humanity! American Law Professors for genocide! American Law Professors for wars of aggression! American Law Professors for murdering U.S. citizens! American Law Professors for murder courts! American Law Professors for trashing the U.S. Constitution! American Law Professors for trashing the Bill of Rights! American Law Professors for trashing International Law! American Law Professors for trashing Human Rights! How much lower can American Law Professors sink Into this criminal scheisse Of Nazi Legal Nihilism? The Nazis had their Law Professors too The worst of the bunch was Carl Schmitt Now we have: American Law Professors For Carl Schmitt! Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh Now at Berkeley Law too With Chaired John Yoo1 Killer Koh's poo Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:00 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} "Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us {Americans} into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Women! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Kids! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! UI Law Profs Say! How many People! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:34 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) ________________________________ ________________________________ 1 One of President Bushie Jr's most notorious torture lawyers and war criminals and a student of Harold Killer Koh at Yale Law School. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Fri Dec 1 18:01:39 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 18:01:39 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Message-ID: Lesley Wexler is a Professor of Law at the University of Illinois College of Law. Professor Wexler writes, teaches and consults in the public international law fields, especially international humanitarian law, international disaster law, and human rights as well as in the anti-discrimination field more generally. The Illiniwaks College of Law's Resident Expert on how Israel can inflict war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians based upon her first-hand information and observation and exploration in situ. And also an "academic fellow" of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies that is now Campaigning heavily and full time to get Us Americans into a war of extermination against the Islamic Republic of Iran for the benefit of Israel. Such is the Illiniwaks Faculty at the Illiniwaks College of Law-Truly Orwellian! FAB WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH WE ALL LOVE BIG BROTHER REAGAN WAS PRESIDENT IN 1984 KILLER KOH WORKED FOR REAGAN IN 1984 Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 8:27 AM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: RE: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh The Nazis Had Their Law Professors Too American Law Professors What have we become? American Law Professors for torture! American Law Professors for Gitmo Kangaroo Courts! American Law Professors for indefinite detention! American Law Professors for spying! American Law Professors for drone strikes! American Law Professors for murder! American Law Professors for assassinations! American Law Professors for war crimes! American Law Professors for crimes against humanity! American Law Professors for genocide! American Law Professors for wars of aggression! American Law Professors for murdering U.S. citizens! American Law Professors for murder courts! American Law Professors for trashing the U.S. Constitution! American Law Professors for trashing the Bill of Rights! American Law Professors for trashing International Law! American Law Professors for trashing Human Rights! How much lower can American Law Professors sink Into this criminal scheisse Of Nazi Legal Nihilism? The Nazis had their Law Professors too The worst of the bunch was Carl Schmitt Now we have: American Law Professors For Carl Schmitt! Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh Now at Berkeley Law too With Chaired John Yoo1 Killer Koh's poo Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:00 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} "Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us {Americans} into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Women! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Kids! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! UI Law Profs Say! How many People! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:34 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) ________________________________ ________________________________ 1 One of President Bushie Jr's most notorious torture lawyers and war criminals and a student of Harold Killer Koh at Yale Law School. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuartnlevy at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 22:56:23 2017 From: stuartnlevy at gmail.com (Stuart Levy) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 16:56:23 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] I won't be at tomorrow's AWARE demonstration ... Message-ID: <35b8a2c1-d8c5-0521-fa3a-0da57a2254da@gmail.com> I won't be at tomorrow's demonstration.   I'm not sure whether Karen M/E/L will either. As for the signs, I could put a bag of them on our driveway around 1pm if someone can pick it up from there ... ? Weather looks to be mild, in the high 50s, and not very windy, a comfortable day to be out on the street. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 23:31:57 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 17:31:57 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] I won't be at tomorrow's AWARE demonstration ... In-Reply-To: <35b8a2c1-d8c5-0521-fa3a-0da57a2254da@gmail.com> References: <35b8a2c1-d8c5-0521-fa3a-0da57a2254da@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0F72EEBE-2F21-442A-A6B5-E39BC19D79D6@gmail.com> Several other of our regulars are unavailable, owing to illness or previous engagement. I thihk we should cancle the demo. (We could say > On Dec 1, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss wrote: > > I won't be at tomorrow's demonstration. I'm not sure whether Karen M/E/L will either. > > As for the signs, I could put a bag of them on our driveway around 1pm if someone can pick it up from there ... ? > > Weather looks to be mild, in the high 50s, and not very windy, a comfortable day to be out on the street. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From james.manrique at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 23:34:39 2017 From: james.manrique at gmail.com (James M) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 17:34:39 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] I won't be at tomorrow's AWARE demonstration ... In-Reply-To: <0F72EEBE-2F21-442A-A6B5-E39BC19D79D6@gmail.com> References: <35b8a2c1-d8c5-0521-fa3a-0da57a2254da@gmail.com> <0F72EEBE-2F21-442A-A6B5-E39BC19D79D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am available to demonstrate on Saturday (if there are other demonstrators... Doug and any others?), and would be willing to pick up the signs on my way. On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 5:31 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > Several other of our regulars are unavailable, owing to illness or > previous engagement. > > I thihk we should cancle the demo. (We could say > > > > On Dec 1, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > > > I won't be at tomorrow's demonstration. I'm not sure whether Karen > M/E/L will either. > > > > As for the signs, I could put a bag of them on our driveway around 1pm > if someone can pick it up from there ... ? > > > > Weather looks to be mild, in the high 50s, and not very windy, a > comfortable day to be out on the street. > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Peace-discuss mailing list > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davegreen84 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 00:01:09 2017 From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 00:01:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] I won't be at tomorrow's AWARE demonstration ... In-Reply-To: References: <35b8a2c1-d8c5-0521-fa3a-0da57a2254da@gmail.com> <0F72EEBE-2F21-442A-A6B5-E39BC19D79D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <573445373.108046.1512172869255@mail.yahoo.com> If the demo is cancelled, the Peace list should at least know, especially Doug C. But let's wait until Saturday mid-morning to confirm that it is cancelled, and make a clear announcement of such. I'm willing to pick up the signs, if a few people explicitly commit to being there. DG On Friday, December 1, 2017, 5:35:10 PM CST, James M via Peace-discuss wrote: I am available to demonstrate on Saturday (if there are other demonstrators... Doug and any others?), and would be willing to pick up the signs on my way. On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 5:31 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: Several other of our regulars are unavailable, owing to illness or previous engagement. I thihk we should cancle the demo. (We could say > On Dec 1, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss wrote: > > I won't be at tomorrow's demonstration.   I'm not sure whether Karen M/E/L will either. > > As for the signs, I could put a bag of them on our driveway around 1pm if someone can pick it up from there ... ? > > Weather looks to be mild, in the high 50s, and not very windy, a comfortable day to be out on the street. > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana. net > https://lists.chambana.net/ mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss ______________________________ _________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana. net https://lists.chambana.net/ mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davegreen84 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 00:01:09 2017 From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 00:01:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] I won't be at tomorrow's AWARE demonstration ... In-Reply-To: References: <35b8a2c1-d8c5-0521-fa3a-0da57a2254da@gmail.com> <0F72EEBE-2F21-442A-A6B5-E39BC19D79D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <573445373.108046.1512172869255@mail.yahoo.com> If the demo is cancelled, the Peace list should at least know, especially Doug C. But let's wait until Saturday mid-morning to confirm that it is cancelled, and make a clear announcement of such. I'm willing to pick up the signs, if a few people explicitly commit to being there. DG On Friday, December 1, 2017, 5:35:10 PM CST, James M via Peace-discuss wrote: I am available to demonstrate on Saturday (if there are other demonstrators... Doug and any others?), and would be willing to pick up the signs on my way. On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 5:31 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: Several other of our regulars are unavailable, owing to illness or previous engagement. I thihk we should cancle the demo. (We could say > On Dec 1, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss wrote: > > I won't be at tomorrow's demonstration.   I'm not sure whether Karen M/E/L will either. > > As for the signs, I could put a bag of them on our driveway around 1pm if someone can pick it up from there ... ? > > Weather looks to be mild, in the high 50s, and not very windy, a comfortable day to be out on the street. > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana. net > https://lists.chambana.net/ mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss ______________________________ _________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana. net https://lists.chambana.net/ mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmedina67 at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 00:30:05 2017 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (kmedina67) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 18:30:05 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tomorrow's AWARE demonstration ... Message-ID: <5a21f411.1b49240a.63792.6fca@mx.google.com> Tomorrow's peace demonstration:Unfortunately i can't make it tomorrow,  but...It looks like at least 3 people are interested in participating (Doug, David, James, . )Plus there are always people like Dan and Don who show up for the last hour.  I think it is worthwhile doing even if only 5 people turn up. [We definitely need  to work on getting more of the alphabet represented... there are a lot of names starting with D] David lives the closest, so we will hand the signs off to him, if that is okay with everyone.  -Karen Medina null -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmedina67 at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 00:30:05 2017 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (kmedina67) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 18:30:05 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tomorrow's AWARE demonstration ... Message-ID: <5a21f411.1b49240a.63792.6fca@mx.google.com> Tomorrow's peace demonstration:Unfortunately i can't make it tomorrow,  but...It looks like at least 3 people are interested in participating (Doug, David, James, . )Plus there are always people like Dan and Don who show up for the last hour.  I think it is worthwhile doing even if only 5 people turn up. [We definitely need  to work on getting more of the alphabet represented... there are a lot of names starting with D] David lives the closest, so we will hand the signs off to him, if that is okay with everyone.  -Karen Medina null -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.manrique at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 00:43:01 2017 From: james.manrique at gmail.com (James M) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 18:43:01 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tomorrow's AWARE demonstration ... In-Reply-To: <5a21f411.1b49240a.63792.6fca@mx.google.com> References: <5a21f411.1b49240a.63792.6fca@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Sounds good to me. I look forward to it! On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 6:30 PM, kmedina67 via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > Tomorrow's peace demonstration: > Unfortunately i can't make it tomorrow, but... > It looks like at least 3 people are interested in participating (Doug, > David, James, . ) > Plus there are always people like Dan and Don who show up for the last > hour. > > I think it is worthwhile doing even if only 5 people turn up. > > [We definitely need to work on getting more of the alphabet > represented... there are a lot of names starting with D] > > David lives the closest, so we will hand the signs off to him, if that is > okay with everyone. > > -Karen Medina > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.manrique at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 00:43:01 2017 From: james.manrique at gmail.com (James M) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 18:43:01 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tomorrow's AWARE demonstration ... In-Reply-To: <5a21f411.1b49240a.63792.6fca@mx.google.com> References: <5a21f411.1b49240a.63792.6fca@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Sounds good to me. I look forward to it! On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 6:30 PM, kmedina67 via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > Tomorrow's peace demonstration: > Unfortunately i can't make it tomorrow, but... > It looks like at least 3 people are interested in participating (Doug, > David, James, . ) > Plus there are always people like Dan and Don who show up for the last > hour. > > I think it is worthwhile doing even if only 5 people turn up. > > [We definitely need to work on getting more of the alphabet > represented... there are a lot of names starting with D] > > David lives the closest, so we will hand the signs off to him, if that is > okay with everyone. > > -Karen Medina > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 00:57:16 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 18:57:16 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] I won't be at tomorrow's AWARE demonstration ... In-Reply-To: <573445373.108046.1512172869255@mail.yahoo.com> References: <35b8a2c1-d8c5-0521-fa3a-0da57a2254da@gmail.com> <0F72EEBE-2F21-442A-A6B5-E39BC19D79D6@gmail.com> <573445373.108046.1512172869255@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50C2E42C-45F4-42F4-8618-54DB65737924@gmail.com> David— You make the decision in the morning. I’ve told Doug that we’ll probably go ahead and storm the Winter Palace… > On Dec 1, 2017, at 6:01 PM, David Green via Peace-discuss wrote: > > If the demo is cancelled, the Peace list should at least know, especially Doug C. But let's wait until Saturday mid-morning to confirm that it is cancelled, and make a clear announcement of such. > > I'm willing to pick up the signs, if a few people explicitly commit to being there. > > DG > > On Friday, December 1, 2017, 5:35:10 PM CST, James M via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > I am available to demonstrate on Saturday (if there are other demonstrators... Doug and any others?), and would be willing to pick up the signs on my way. > > On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 5:31 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: > Several other of our regulars are unavailable, owing to illness or previous engagement. > > I thihk we should cancle the demo. (We could say > > > > On Dec 1, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > > > I won't be at tomorrow's demonstration. I'm not sure whether Karen M/E/L will either. > > > > As for the signs, I could put a bag of them on our driveway around 1pm if someone can pick it up from there ... ? > > > > Weather looks to be mild, in the high 50s, and not very windy, a comfortable day to be out on the street. > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Peace-discuss mailing list > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana. net > > https://lists.chambana.net/ mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > ______________________________ _________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana. net > https://lists.chambana.net/ mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 00:57:16 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 18:57:16 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] I won't be at tomorrow's AWARE demonstration ... In-Reply-To: <573445373.108046.1512172869255@mail.yahoo.com> References: <35b8a2c1-d8c5-0521-fa3a-0da57a2254da@gmail.com> <0F72EEBE-2F21-442A-A6B5-E39BC19D79D6@gmail.com> <573445373.108046.1512172869255@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50C2E42C-45F4-42F4-8618-54DB65737924@gmail.com> David— You make the decision in the morning. I’ve told Doug that we’ll probably go ahead and storm the Winter Palace… > On Dec 1, 2017, at 6:01 PM, David Green via Peace-discuss wrote: > > If the demo is cancelled, the Peace list should at least know, especially Doug C. But let's wait until Saturday mid-morning to confirm that it is cancelled, and make a clear announcement of such. > > I'm willing to pick up the signs, if a few people explicitly commit to being there. > > DG > > On Friday, December 1, 2017, 5:35:10 PM CST, James M via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > I am available to demonstrate on Saturday (if there are other demonstrators... Doug and any others?), and would be willing to pick up the signs on my way. > > On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 5:31 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: > Several other of our regulars are unavailable, owing to illness or previous engagement. > > I thihk we should cancle the demo. (We could say > > > > On Dec 1, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > > > I won't be at tomorrow's demonstration. I'm not sure whether Karen M/E/L will either. > > > > As for the signs, I could put a bag of them on our driveway around 1pm if someone can pick it up from there ... ? > > > > Weather looks to be mild, in the high 50s, and not very windy, a comfortable day to be out on the street. > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Peace-discuss mailing list > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana. net > > https://lists.chambana.net/ mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > ______________________________ _________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana. net > https://lists.chambana.net/ mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From divisek at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 01:52:41 2017 From: divisek at yahoo.com (Dianna Visek) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 01:52:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] The Pentagon, CIA, and NSA are in charge References: <1712561584.131191.1512179561287.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1712561584.131191.1512179561287@mail.yahoo.com> The Pentagon, CIA, and NSA are in charge Source: Future of Freedom Foundation by Jacob G Hornberger “What is a national security state? It’s a particular type of governmental structure, one that is inherent to totalitarian regimes. North Korea is a national-security state. So is China. So is Egypt. So is the United States. A national-security state consists of three primary components, all of which can be centralized into one entity or divided into separate departments and agencies. One component is a massive military establishment, one that plays a dominant role in society, both economically and sociologically. Another component consists of covert state-sponsored assassinations and cover-ups. The third component is secret monitoring of the citizenry — e.g., secretly listening in on telephone conversations, secretly reading people’s emails, secretly watching what people do on the Internet, and keeping secret files on people. In the United States, these three components are divided into three entities — the military establishment, the CIA, and the NSA.” (11/30/17) https://www.fff.org/2017/11/30/pentagon-cia-nsa-charge/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davegreen84 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 04:03:24 2017 From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 04:03:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tomorrow's AWARE demonstration ... In-Reply-To: <5a21f411.1b49240a.63792.6fca@mx.google.com> References: <5a21f411.1b49240a.63792.6fca@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <657373760.187637.1512187404269@mail.yahoo.com> I will pick up the signs on my way to the demo and be there by 2. DG On Friday, December 1, 2017, 6:30:34 PM CST, kmedina67 via Peace-discuss wrote: Tomorrow's peace demonstration:Unfortunately i can't make it tomorrow,  but...It looks like at least 3 people are interested in participating (Doug, David, James, . )Plus there are always people like Dan and Don who show up for the last hour.  I think it is worthwhile doing even if only 5 people turn up. [We definitely need  to work on getting more of the alphabet represented... there are a lot of names starting with D] David lives the closest, so we will hand the signs off to him, if that is okay with everyone.  -Karen Medina _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davegreen84 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 04:03:24 2017 From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 04:03:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tomorrow's AWARE demonstration ... In-Reply-To: <5a21f411.1b49240a.63792.6fca@mx.google.com> References: <5a21f411.1b49240a.63792.6fca@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <657373760.187637.1512187404269@mail.yahoo.com> I will pick up the signs on my way to the demo and be there by 2. DG On Friday, December 1, 2017, 6:30:34 PM CST, kmedina67 via Peace-discuss wrote: Tomorrow's peace demonstration:Unfortunately i can't make it tomorrow,  but...It looks like at least 3 people are interested in participating (Doug, David, James, . )Plus there are always people like Dan and Don who show up for the last hour.  I think it is worthwhile doing even if only 5 people turn up. [We definitely need  to work on getting more of the alphabet represented... there are a lot of names starting with D] David lives the closest, so we will hand the signs off to him, if that is okay with everyone.  -Karen Medina _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davegreen84 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 04:03:24 2017 From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 04:03:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tomorrow's AWARE demonstration ... In-Reply-To: <5a21f411.1b49240a.63792.6fca@mx.google.com> References: <5a21f411.1b49240a.63792.6fca@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <657373760.187637.1512187404269@mail.yahoo.com> I will pick up the signs on my way to the demo and be there by 2. DG On Friday, December 1, 2017, 6:30:34 PM CST, kmedina67 via Peace-discuss wrote: Tomorrow's peace demonstration:Unfortunately i can't make it tomorrow,  but...It looks like at least 3 people are interested in participating (Doug, David, James, . )Plus there are always people like Dan and Don who show up for the last hour.  I think it is worthwhile doing even if only 5 people turn up. [We definitely need  to work on getting more of the alphabet represented... there are a lot of names starting with D] David lives the closest, so we will hand the signs off to him, if that is okay with everyone.  -Karen Medina _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r-szoke at illinois.edu Sat Dec 2 04:07:14 2017 From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 04:07:14 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] More cluster bombs Message-ID: <67738251-8C26-4C7B-BB82-8BE36C274F18@illinois.edu> U.S. Will Keep Older Cluster Munitions, a Weapon Banned by 102 Nations By JOHN ISMAYDEC. 1, 2017 Continue reading the main storyShare This Page * Share * Tweet * Email * More * Save Photo [cid:37C77788-F6A3-489A-95DF-7AFCD300BCC1 at hsd1.il.comcast.net] Members of the South Korean Air Force prepared to load cluster bombs onto a fighter during an exercise in August at an air base in Suwon, South Korea. CreditKim Jong-soo/Reuters WASHINGTON — The Pentagon will allow the United States military to once again arm itself with older cluster munitions, a type of weapon that has been banned by 102 countries largely because of concerns that they disproportionately harm civilians. The change, detailed in a memo released on Friday, reverses a prohibition issued under President George W. Bush, and appears to be a concession by the United States that finding safer variants of the weapons has so far failed. Most American cluster munitions held abroad appear to be positioned for a possible war with North Korea. Under a 2008 agreement, the Pentagon maintains a stockpile of more than 1.5 million cluster munitions, containing over 90 million bomblets, in South Korea. Cluster munitions include a wide variety of rockets, bombs, missiles and artillery projectiles that scatter smaller weapons, called submunitions, over a target area. Some dispensers can release as many as several hundred bomblets. Though the United States is not a signatory to the international treaty banning the weapons, it pledged in June 2008 to sharply restrict their use and reduce risks to civilians. Continue reading the main story ADVERTISEMENT Continue reading the main story -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 00dc-cluster-master768.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 86598 bytes Desc: 00dc-cluster-master768.jpeg URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 04:30:09 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 22:30:09 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tomorrow's AWARE demonstration ... In-Reply-To: <657373760.187637.1512187404269@mail.yahoo.com> References: <5a21f411.1b49240a.63792.6fca@mx.google.com> <657373760.187637.1512187404269@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01AA24C6-4BDE-400B-84AD-5B4496871DEB@gmail.com> I’ll bring flyers and be there by 2 inshallah. —CGE > On Dec 1, 2017, at 10:03 PM, David Green via Peace-discuss wrote: > > I will pick up the signs on my way to the demo and be there by 2. > > DG > > > > On Friday, December 1, 2017, 6:30:34 PM CST, kmedina67 via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > Tomorrow's peace demonstration: > Unfortunately i can't make it tomorrow, but... > It looks like at least 3 people are interested in participating (Doug, David, James, . ) > Plus there are always people like Dan and Don who show up for the last hour. > > I think it is worthwhile doing even if only 5 people turn up. > > [We definitely need to work on getting more of the alphabet represented... there are a lot of names starting with D] > > David lives the closest, so we will hand the signs off to him, if that is okay with everyone. > > -Karen Medina > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 04:30:09 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 22:30:09 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tomorrow's AWARE demonstration ... In-Reply-To: <657373760.187637.1512187404269@mail.yahoo.com> References: <5a21f411.1b49240a.63792.6fca@mx.google.com> <657373760.187637.1512187404269@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01AA24C6-4BDE-400B-84AD-5B4496871DEB@gmail.com> I’ll bring flyers and be there by 2 inshallah. —CGE > On Dec 1, 2017, at 10:03 PM, David Green via Peace-discuss wrote: > > I will pick up the signs on my way to the demo and be there by 2. > > DG > > > > On Friday, December 1, 2017, 6:30:34 PM CST, kmedina67 via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > Tomorrow's peace demonstration: > Unfortunately i can't make it tomorrow, but... > It looks like at least 3 people are interested in participating (Doug, David, James, . ) > Plus there are always people like Dan and Don who show up for the last hour. > > I think it is worthwhile doing even if only 5 people turn up. > > [We definitely need to work on getting more of the alphabet represented... there are a lot of names starting with D] > > David lives the closest, so we will hand the signs off to him, if that is okay with everyone. > > -Karen Medina > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From r-szoke at illinois.edu Sat Dec 2 05:44:26 2017 From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 05:44:26 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] How true . . . Message-ID: <422A761D-E60F-459A-AAFA-DA2604F91D01@illinois.edu> The White House is infested with mice and roaches, NBC reports US news This morning There have been reports of mice and roaches and complaints about ants in the White House, according to work orders obtained by NBC News 4. 1,953Likes -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rwhelbig at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 11:02:45 2017 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 03:02:45 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] More cluster bombs In-Reply-To: <67738251-8C26-4C7B-BB82-8BE36C274F18@illinois.edu> References: <67738251-8C26-4C7B-BB82-8BE36C274F18@illinois.edu> Message-ID: What are the 102 nations? How many of them have Air Forces or long range artillery or rockets? In other words, how many of them actually might have the means to employ cluster munitions? I would expect that cluster munitions were developed because of the tactics used by the Chinese in the Korean War as well as Japanese Banzai charges. Just curious - just saying 102 nations voted NO doesn't really tell the whole story. Roger On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 8:07 PM, Szoke, Ron via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > U.S. Will Keep Older Cluster Munitions, a Weapon Banned by 102 Nations > > By JOHN ISMAYDEC. 1, 2017 > Continue reading the main story > Share > This Page > > - Share > - Tweet > - Email > - More > - Save > > Photo > Members of the South Korean Air Force prepared to load cluster bombs onto > a fighter during an exercise in August at an air base in Suwon, South Korea. > CreditKim Jong-soo/Reuters > > WASHINGTON — The Pentagon will allow the United States military to once > again arm itself with older cluster munitions, a type of weapon that has > been banned by 102 countries largely because of concerns that they > disproportionately harm civilians. > > The change, detailed in a memo released on Friday, reverses a prohibition > issued under President George W. Bush, and appears to be a concession by > the United States that finding safer variants of the weapons has so far > failed. > > Most American cluster munitions held abroad appear to be positioned for a > possible war with North Korea. Under a 2008 agreement, the Pentagon > maintains a stockpile of more than 1.5 million cluster munitions, > containing over 90 million bomblets, in South Korea. > > Cluster munitions include a wide variety of rockets, bombs, missiles and > artillery projectiles that scatter smaller weapons, called submunitions, > over a target area. Some dispensers can release as many as several hundred > bomblets. > > Though the United States is not a signatory to the international treaty > banning the weapons, it pledged in June 2008 to sharply restrict their use > and reduce risks to civilians. > Continue reading the main story > > > ADVERTISEMENT > Continue reading the main story > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 00dc-cluster-master768.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 86598 bytes Desc: not available URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 2 13:15:21 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 13:15:21 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] How true . . . In-Reply-To: <422A761D-E60F-459A-AAFA-DA2604F91D01@illinois.edu> References: <422A761D-E60F-459A-AAFA-DA2604F91D01@illinois.edu> Message-ID: This is nothing new, the White House has been known to be infested with mice and roaches before. On Dec 1, 2017, at 21:44, Szoke, Ron via Peace-discuss > wrote: The White House is infested with mice and roaches, NBC reports US news This morning There have been reports of mice and roaches and complaints about ants in the White House, according to work orders obtained by NBC News 4. 1,953Likes _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C5628c2db816e40af6c2608d53947cf95%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636477902940350638&sdata=u1EzlkcELOI9YUIDt03NGXez5PlwQdheTL1G4VRW9wQ%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Sat Dec 2 13:24:21 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 07:24:21 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 In-Reply-To: References: <1275289966.5523896.1512082034732@mail.yahoo.com> <1715360317.5525883.1512084011899@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00f901d36b70$dd2bc9e0$97835da0$@comcast.net> Really Carl ? Your still beating that dead horse ? AGAIN, yes, she didn't vote against it but she was ONE of only TWO State Reps who REFUSED to vote for it ! If her abstention vote had made the difference of the resolution passing or not THEN you could heap condemnation, but since that was not the case and she DID resist Israeli consulate and Dem party head Madigan's pressure to vote for it, then she deserves at least partial praise and NOT condemnation. David J. -----Original Message----- From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:36 PM To: Stephen Francis Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Karen Aram Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 Members of AWARE and the Prairiegreens met with state representative Carol Ammons two years ago to condemn her caving in to lobbying from the Israeli consulate and not voting against direction from the government of Israel on how UI monies should be used. . —CGE > On Nov 30, 2017, at 5:20 PM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Would AWARE support this UofMichigan effort: .... NO! no way.... you'd find some way to dodge it. > University of Michigan Students Pass Israel Divestment Resolution, > Signaling Momentum Among Larger Schools > http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/42739-university-michigan-students- > pass-israel-divestment-resolution-signaling-momentum-among-larger-scho > ols > > > On Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:12 PM, Karen Aram wrote: > > > Our “favorite” anti-semite is back folks. > > Good grief, Stephen, AWARE is not a pro Israeli fake antiwar organization, we take a lot of grief for criticizing Israel, what drugs are you on? Usually its just your rant blaming Jews for 9/11 or denying the Holocaust ever happened. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. > > >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 14:47, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> Professor Boyle, >> Your post on Wexler that included the following sentence must have crossed the 'anti-Semitic' line and consequently got no response.... predictably. >> "As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." >> AWARE is a basically a pro-Israel fake antiwar organization that fails (by design) to get to the real issues... that you so eloquently pointed out above. It is utterly taboo to give any serious thought or worlds to the real crimes of the Israeli government and its Jewish supremacists. >> A story like the one below would also receive no traction: >> ANALYSIS: Will Netanyahu risk exposing one of Israel’s secrets? >> >> ANALYSIS: Will Netanyahu risk exposing one of Israel’s secrets? >> New law would tell Palestinian citizens in Israel that they are not >> equal, say experts >> >> >> >> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:36 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" wrote: >> >> >> Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to >> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> peace-discuss-owner at lists.chambana.net >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, >> Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >> (Boyle, Francis A) >> 2. Re: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, >> Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >> (Boyle, Francis A) >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:33:57 +0000 >> From: "Boyle, Francis A" >> To: 'David Green' , "Miller, Joseph Thomas" >> , "'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com'" >> , "'peace-discuss at anti-war.net'" >> , "'C. G. ESTABROOK'" >> , "'a-fields at uiuc.edu'" , >> 'Joe Lauria' , >> "'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net'" >> , >> "'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net'" >> , "Szoke, Ron" >> , 'Arlene Hickory' , 'Karen >> Aram' , "'abass10 at gmail.com'" >> , "'mickalideh at gmail.com'" , >> 'Lina Thorne' , "'chicago at worldcantwait.net'" >> , 'Jay' , 'David >> Johnson' , 'Mildred O'brien' >> , "'C G Estabrook'" >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli >> War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than >> 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." >> Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >> >> And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers >> against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the >> College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with >> Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the >> Palestinians. QED. fab >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> Law Building >> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >> 217-333-7954 (phone) >> 217-244-1478 (fax) >> (personal comments only) >> >> From: Boyle, Francis A >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM >> To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas >> ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >> ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >> ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >> ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; >> 'Joe Lauria' ; >> 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >> ; >> 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >> ; Szoke, Ron >> ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen >> Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >> ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; >> 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >> ; 'Jay' ; 'David >> Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' >> ; 'C G Estabrook' >> Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >> >> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than >> 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." >> Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >> >> Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. >> fab >> >> Hey! Hey! >> Wexler Say! >> How many women! >> Did you kill today! >> In Palestine! >> >> Hey! Hey! >> Wexler say! >> How many kids! >> Did you kill today! >> In Palestine! >> >> Hey! Hey! >> Wexler Say! >> How many Dads! >> Did you kill today! >> In Palestine! >> Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for >> the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the >> Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. >> >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> Law Building >> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >> 217-333-7954 (phone) >> 217-244-1478 (fax) >> (personal comments only) >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >> scrubbed... >> URL: >> > 30/25d39023/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:33:57 +0000 >> From: "Boyle, Francis A" >> To: 'David Green' , "Miller, Joseph Thomas" >> , "'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com'" >> , "'peace-discuss at anti-war.net'" >> , "'C. G. ESTABROOK'" >> , "'a-fields at uiuc.edu'" , >> 'Joe Lauria' , >> "'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net'" >> , >> "'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net'" >> , "Szoke, Ron" >> , 'Arlene Hickory' , 'Karen >> Aram' , "'abass10 at gmail.com'" >> , "'mickalideh at gmail.com'" , >> 'Lina Thorne' , "'chicago at worldcantwait.net'" >> , 'Jay' , 'David >> Johnson' , 'Mildred O'brien' >> , "'C G Estabrook'" >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli >> War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than >> 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." >> Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >> >> And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers >> against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the >> College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with >> Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the >> Palestinians. QED. fab >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> Law Building >> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >> 217-333-7954 (phone) >> 217-244-1478 (fax) >> (personal comments only) >> >> From: Boyle, Francis A >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM >> To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas >> ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >> ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >> ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >> ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; >> 'Joe Lauria' ; >> 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >> ; >> 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >> ; Szoke, Ron >> ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen >> Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >> ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; >> 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >> ; 'Jay' ; 'David >> Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' >> ; 'C G Estabrook' >> Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >> >> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than >> 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." >> Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >> >> Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. >> fab >> >> Hey! Hey! >> Wexler Say! >> How many women! >> Did you kill today! >> In Palestine! >> >> Hey! Hey! >> Wexler say! >> How many kids! >> Did you kill today! >> In Palestine! >> >> Hey! Hey! >> Wexler Say! >> How many Dads! >> Did you kill today! >> In Palestine! >> Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for >> the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the >> Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. >> >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> Law Building >> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >> 217-333-7954 (phone) >> 217-244-1478 (fax) >> (personal comments only) >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >> scrubbed... >> URL: >> > 30/25d39023/attachment-0002.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 >> *********************************************** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flis >> ts.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ck >> arenaram%40hotmail.com%7C85857c977a0c40ede92108d538450c0a%7C84df9e7fe >> 9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476791556968242&sdata=DGk2cH1Ym9 >> DBL3DnifJWCkC5QkCmeM4ItBL4SDiQg3k%3D&reserved=0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 13:36:20 2017 From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 13:36:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] New highly credible evidence... References: <1411057191.294615.1512221780118.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1411057191.294615.1512221780118@mail.yahoo.com> I predict that this post will garner the same (0) response that Professor Boyle's comments on Neocon/Zionists received, but I will persevere.On the 9/11 WTC7 controversy:Professor and colleagues prove 9/11 official story is bunk!University of Alaska, FairbanksDr. J. Leroy Hulsey, Department Chair, Civil and Environmental Engineering, PhD., Dr. Feng Xiao, Post-doctoral Researcher, Zhili Quan, Ph.D. Student "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017 | | | | | | | | | | | "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... | | | | Connect the dots and logic If WTC 7 official story is not only bunk but deliberate lies, then the official narrative on planes and fires destroying the WTC is also bunk.The theory that 9/11 was a false flag event to initiate the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq is no longer a 'conspiracy' theory but a provable fact. Professor Boyle's comments are backed up by this Carl Bernstein video and mountains of evidence that support its premise: Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish Neocons' in Launching Iraq War | | | | | | | | | | | Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish Neoc... | | | | Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth2,952 Architects and engineers are the backbone of this organization and are supported by over 22,000 members. AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all three World Trade Center skyscrapers on September 11 - Who we are   | | | AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all three World Trade Center skyscrapers on ... | | | Carl Cameron, Fox News documentary...Israel had foreknowledge thus was complicit in the events of 9/11... at the very least... there is much more evidence of the direct involvement of the controlled demolition of the WTC. Censored: Israeli software spying on US - AmDocs Comverse Infosys Carl Cameron Dec 2001 | | | | | | | | | | | Censored: Israeli software spying on US - AmDocs Comverse Infosys Carl Came... All 4 parts of this subsequently censored Fox News report from December 2001 Fox News Special Report. Part One. ... | | | | 9/11 was a false flag attack also to prompt the signing of the Patriot Act, which was a 700 page document written long before 9/11 that part of the plan to drastically step up the surveillance of American citizens. 9/11 Lies and Patriot Act Crimes with CIA Whistleblower Susan Lindauer | | | | | | | | | | | 9/11 Lies and Patriot Act Crimes with CIA Whistleblower Susan Lindauer 9/11 cover-ups and the Patriot Act’s constitutional violations are exposed by whistleblower and Extreme Prejudic... | | | | If anyone denies the credibility of the above, they are protecting Israel and all the philo-Semites in the US government. AWARE purposely ignores this information because of Jewish power.  also...AWARE should be going after the Jewish power structure at UIUC that pushed Prof. Salaita out of the UofI, but refuse to do so, supporting the claim that AWARE is under the thumb of Jewish power at the campus of UIUC. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moboct1 at aim.com Sat Dec 2 13:51:36 2017 From: moboct1 at aim.com (Mildred O'brien) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 08:51:36 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Demonstration today Message-ID: <160177f2207-194b-e8f@webjas-vad053.srv.aolmail.net> I was planning to attend this afternoon, unless it is cancelled by everyone. Midge O'Brien -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 2 13:52:08 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 13:52:08 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] New highly credible evidence... In-Reply-To: <1411057191.294615.1512221780118@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1411057191.294615.1512221780118.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1411057191.294615.1512221780118@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There is documented evidence, that has been presented to the public, proving the Saudi government paid for 9/11. It’s also known the Saudi’s were the largest number of people involved in carrying out the action. Unfortunately, the victims relatives have been prevented from suing the Saudi government, given the Saudi’s are the USG closest allies. At least that was the latest I heard on the topic. In the meantime, are the American people rebelling against the USG alliance with these perpetrators of death? And, yes we do know the Saudi’s have an alliance with Israel, to take out Hezbollah, leading to war with Lebanon and Iran? The US is involved and responsible for all. On Dec 2, 2017, at 05:36, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss > wrote: I predict that this post will garner the same (0) response that Professor Boyle's comments on Neocon/Zionists received, but I will persevere. On the 9/11 WTC7 controversy: Professor and colleagues prove 9/11 official story is bunk! University of Alaska, Fairbanks Dr. J. Leroy Hulsey, Department Chair, Civil and Environmental Engineering, PhD., Dr. Feng Xiao, Post-doctoral Researcher, Zhili Quan, Ph.D. Student "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017 [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... Connect the dots and logic If WTC 7 official story is not only bunk but deliberate lies, then the official narrative on planes and fires destroying the WTC is also bunk. The theory that 9/11 was a false flag event to initiate the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq is no longer a 'conspiracy' theory but a provable fact. Professor Boyle's comments are backed up by this Carl Bernstein video and mountains of evidence that support its premise: Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish Neocons' in Launching Iraq War [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish Neoc... Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth 2,952 Architects and engineers are the backbone of this organization and are supported by over 22,000 members. AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all three World Trade Center skyscrapers on September 11 - Who we are AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all three World Trade Center skyscrapers on ... Carl Cameron, Fox News documentary... Israel had foreknowledge thus was complicit in the events of 9/11... at the very least... there is much more evidence of the direct involvement of the controlled demolition of the WTC. Censored: Israeli software spying on US - AmDocs Comverse Infosys Carl Cameron Dec 2001 [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] Censored: Israeli software spying on US - AmDocs Comverse Infosys Carl Came... All 4 parts of this subsequently censored Fox News report from December 2001 Fox News Special Report. Part One. ... 9/11 was a false flag attack also to prompt the signing of the Patriot Act, which was a 700 page document written long before 9/11 that part of the plan to drastically step up the surveillance of American citizens. 9/11 Lies and Patriot Act Crimes with CIA Whistleblower Susan Lindauer [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] 9/11 Lies and Patriot Act Crimes with CIA Whistleblower Susan Lindauer 9/11 cover-ups and the Patriot Act’s constitutional violations are exposed by whistleblower and Extreme Prejudic... If anyone denies the credibility of the above, they are protecting Israel and all the philo-Semites in the US government. AWARE purposely ignores this information because of Jewish power. also... AWARE should be going after the Jewish power structure at UIUC that pushed Prof. Salaita out of the UofI, but refuse to do so, supporting the claim that AWARE is under the thumb of Jewish power at the campus of UIUC. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Ca68a709696234c49343508d53989d680%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478186527464724&sdata=1F5f3yk%2BjrC54qAw0zlelAVzDyuSQyX6kGDbiJXXm2Y%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Sat Dec 2 13:52:24 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 07:52:24 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] New highly credible evidence... In-Reply-To: <1411057191.294615.1512221780118@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1411057191.294615.1512221780118.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1411057191.294615.1512221780118@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <011901d36b74$c8a596f0$59f0c4d0$@comcast.net> Well Stephen, As you know, I do not believe the “ official “ Bush administration narrative about 9-11 and yes I also believe that it was the 21st century American version of the Reichstag fire that consolidated Hitler’s power in Germany. What I and everyone else on this list take issue with you about is that instead of being focused on anti-Zionism you have allowed yourself to be poisoned with racist anti-Semitism. Remember Stephen, not all Jewish people are Zionists and it is not just Jewish people who are Zionists. There are a LOT of Christian fundamentalists and Fascists who are also Zionists. So there is your response, I hope your happy. David J. From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 7:36 AM To: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Stephen Francis Subject: [Peace-discuss] New highly credible evidence... I predict that this post will garner the same (0) response that Professor Boyle's comments on Neocon/Zionists received, but I will persevere. On the 9/11 WTC7 controversy: Professor and colleagues prove 9/11 official story is bunk! University of Alaska, Fairbanks Dr. J. Leroy Hulsey, Department Chair, Civil and Environmental Engineering, PhD., Dr. Feng Xiao, Post-doctoral Researcher, Zhili Quan, Ph.D. Student "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017 Description: https://s.yimg.com/vv/api/res/1.2/2aEmW2GPAN8zbwV5tLmidA--~A/YXBwaWQ9bWFpbDtmaT1maWxsO2g9MjAwO3c9NDAw/https:/i.ytimg.com/vi/RYV33LKDY8k/hqdefault.jpg.cf.jpg - Description: https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/12/overlay-tile.png Description: Image removed by sender. "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... Connect the dots and logic If WTC 7 official story is not only bunk but deliberate lies, then the official narrative on planes and fires destroying the WTC is also bunk. The theory that 9/11 was a false flag event to initiate the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq is no longer a 'conspiracy' theory but a provable fact. Professor Boyle's comments are backed up by this Carl Bernstein video and mountains of evidence that support its premise: Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish Neocons' in Launching Iraq War Description: https://s.yimg.com/vv/api/res/1.2/tAV6s6vOXCPAhOK._XU9KA--~A/YXBwaWQ9bWFpbDtmaT1maWxsO2g9MjAwO3c9NDAw/https:/i.ytimg.com/vi/ZRlatDWqh0o/hqdefault.jpg.cf.jpg - Description: https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/12/overlay-tile.png Description: Image removed by sender. Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish Neoc... Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth 2,952 Architects and engineers are the backbone of this organization and are supported by over 22,000 members. AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all three World Trade Center skyscrapers on September 11 - Who we are AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all three World Trade Center skyscrapers on ... Carl Cameron, Fox News documentary... Israel had foreknowledge thus was complicit in the events of 9/11... at the very least... there is much more evidence of the direct involvement of the controlled demolition of the WTC. Censored: Israeli software spying on US - AmDocs Comverse Infosys Carl Cameron Dec 2001 Description: https://s.yimg.com/vv/api/res/1.2/juX.TLFHveQJHF1mHEUwuA--~A/YXBwaWQ9bWFpbDtmaT1maWxsO2g9MjAwO3c9NDAw/https:/i.ytimg.com/vi/H20Naj176M0/hqdefault.jpg.cf.jpg - Description: https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/12/overlay-tile.png Description: Image removed by sender. Censored: Israeli software spying on US - AmDocs Comverse Infosys Carl Came... All 4 parts of this subsequently censored Fox News report from December 2001 Fox News Special Report. Part One. ... 9/11 was a false flag attack also to prompt the signing of the Patriot Act, which was a 700 page document written long before 9/11 that part of the plan to drastically step up the surveillance of American citizens. 9/11 Lies and Patriot Act Crimes with CIA Whistleblower Susan Lindauer Description: https://s.yimg.com/vv/api/res/1.2/wvgSisKv0m_60Ss34XdrVg--~A/YXBwaWQ9bWFpbDtmaT1maWxsO2g9MjAwO3c9NDAw/https:/i.ytimg.com/vi/DO2ElZdkuuI/maxresdefault.jpg.cf.jpg - Description: https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/12/overlay-tile.png Description: Image removed by sender. 9/11 Lies and Patriot Act Crimes with CIA Whistleblower Susan Lindauer 9/11 cover-ups and the Patriot Act’s constitutional violations are exposed by whistleblower and Extreme Prejudic... If anyone denies the credibility of the above, they are protecting Israel and all the philo-Semites in the US government. AWARE purposely ignores this information because of Jewish power. also... AWARE should be going after the Jewish power structure at UIUC that pushed Prof. Salaita out of the UofI, but refuse to do so, supporting the claim that AWARE is under the thumb of Jewish power at the campus of UIUC. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 222795 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.emz Type: application/octet-stream Size: 1630 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.png Type: image/png Size: 794 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 344 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.png Type: image/png Size: 182697 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.emz Type: application/octet-stream Size: 1625 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image009.png Type: image/png Size: 792 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image010.png Type: image/png Size: 170486 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image011.emz Type: application/octet-stream Size: 1626 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image012.png Type: image/png Size: 183267 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image013.emz Type: application/octet-stream Size: 1620 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 13:58:48 2017 From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 13:58:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] New highly credible evidence... In-Reply-To: References: <1411057191.294615.1512221780118.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1411057191.294615.1512221780118@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2009979125.275960.1512223128351@mail.yahoo.com> You're deflecting my comments to Saudi Arabia which is tantamount to rejecting their credibility and proof of my points.Saudi Arabia and Israel have been secret allies for decades and only now has this come to the fore because of the threat of the failure of ISIS and the US's fake war against it. Saudi Arabia and Israel have common purposes and motives. On Saturday, December 2, 2017 7:52 AM, Karen Aram wrote: There is documented evidence, that has been presented to the public, proving the Saudi government paid for 9/11. It’s also known the Saudi’s were the largest number of people involved in carrying out the action. Unfortunately, the victims relatives have been prevented from suing the Saudi government, given the Saudi’s are the USG closest allies. At least that was the latest I heard on the topic. In the meantime, are the American people rebelling against the USG alliance with these perpetrators of death? And, yes we do know the Saudi’s have an alliance with Israel, to take out Hezbollah, leading to war with Lebanon and Iran? The US is involved and responsible for all.  On Dec 2, 2017, at 05:36, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: I predict that this post will garner the same (0) response that Professor Boyle's comments on Neocon/Zionists received, but I will persevere.On the 9/11 WTC7 controversy:Professor and colleagues prove 9/11 official story is bunk!University of Alaska, FairbanksDr. J. Leroy Hulsey, Department Chair, Civil and Environmental Engineering, PhD., Dr. Feng Xiao, Post-doctoral Researcher, Zhili Quan, Ph.D. Student "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017 | | | | | | | | | | | "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... | | | | Connect the dots and logic If WTC 7 official story is not only bunk but deliberate lies, then the official narrative on planes and fires destroying the WTC is also bunk.The theory that 9/11 was a false flag event to initiate the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq is no longer a 'conspiracy' theory but a provable fact. Professor Boyle's comments are backed up by this Carl Bernstein video and mountains of evidence that support its premise: Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish Neocons' in Launching Iraq War | | | | | | | | | | | Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish Neoc... | | | | Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth2,952 Architects and engineers are the backbone of this organization and are supported by over 22,000 members. AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all three World Trade Center skyscrapers on September 11 - Who we are   | | | AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all three World Trade Center skyscrapers on ... | | | Carl Cameron, Fox News documentary...Israel had foreknowledge thus was complicit in the events of 9/11... at the very least... there is much more evidence of the direct involvement of the controlled demolition of the WTC. Censored: Israeli software spying on US - AmDocs Comverse Infosys Carl Cameron Dec 2001 | | | | | | | | | | | Censored: Israeli software spying on US - AmDocs Comverse Infosys Carl Came... All 4 parts of this subsequently censored Fox News report from December 2001 Fox News Special Report. Part One. ... | | | | 9/11 was a false flag attack also to prompt the signing of the Patriot Act, which was a 700 page document written long before 9/11 that part of the plan to drastically step up the surveillance of American citizens. 9/11 Lies and Patriot Act Crimes with CIA Whistleblower Susan Lindauer | | | | | | | | | | | 9/11 Lies and Patriot Act Crimes with CIA Whistleblower Susan Lindauer 9/11 cover-ups and the Patriot Act’s constitutional violations are exposed by whistleblower and Extreme Prejudic... | | | | If anyone denies the credibility of the above, they are protecting Israel and all the philo-Semites in the US government. AWARE purposely ignores this information because of Jewish power.  also...AWARE should be going after the Jewish power structure at UIUC that pushed Prof. Salaita out of the UofI, but refuse to do so, supporting the claim that AWARE is under the thumb of Jewish power at the campus of UIUC. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Ca68a709696234c49343508d53989d680%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478186527464724&sdata=1F5f3yk%2BjrC54qAw0zlelAVzDyuSQyX6kGDbiJXXm2Y%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rwhelbig at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 14:12:21 2017 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 06:12:21 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] New highly credible evidence... In-Reply-To: References: <1411057191.294615.1512221780118.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1411057191.294615.1512221780118@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Karen - where is this documented evidence that Saudi government paid for 9/11? -- references to valid documents would be appreciated. Yes, the "muscle" of the hijackers were Saudi Arabians. You may not even know if they expected to die that day - the pilots certainly did, but none of them were Saudi. Roger I am no fan of Saudi Arabia - I have been there - was there for three months in 1976 - I felt really glad to be back in America and not to be in a very rigid dictatorship - it is a hereditary monarchy but also really a dictatorship. On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 5:52 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > There is documented evidence, that has been presented to the public, > proving the Saudi government paid for 9/11. It’s also known the Saudi’s > were the largest number of people involved in carrying out the action. > Unfortunately, the victims relatives have been prevented from suing the > Saudi government, given the Saudi’s are the USG closest allies. At least > that was the latest I heard on the topic. In the meantime, are the American > people rebelling against the USG alliance with these perpetrators of death? > And, yes we do know the Saudi’s have an alliance with Israel, to take out > Hezbollah, leading to war with Lebanon and Iran? The US is involved and > responsible for all. > > > > > On Dec 2, 2017, at 05:36, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > I predict that this post will garner the same (0) response that Professor > Boyle's comments on Neocon/Zionists received, but I will persevere. > On the 9/11 WTC7 controversy: > Professor and colleagues prove 9/11 official story is bunk! > University of Alaska, Fairbanks > Dr. J. Leroy Hulsey, Department Chair, Civil and Environmental > Engineering, PhD., Dr. Feng Xiao, Post-doctoral Researcher, Zhili Quan, > Ph.D. Student > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017 > > > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... > On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel > Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... > > > > Connect the dots and logic > > If WTC 7 official story is not only bunk but deliberate lies, then the > official narrative on planes and fires destroying the WTC is also bunk. > The theory that 9/11 was a false flag event to initiate the invasion of > Afghanistan and Iraq is no longer a 'conspiracy' theory but a provable fact. > > Professor Boyle's comments are backed up by this Carl Bernstein video and > mountains of evidence that support its premise: > Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish > Neocons' in Launching Iraq War > > > Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish Neoc... > > > > > Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth > 2,952 Architects and engineers are the backbone of this organization and > are supported by over 22,000 members. > > AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all > three World Trade Center skyscrapers on September 11 - Who we are > > > > AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all > three World Trade Center skyscrapers on ... > > > > Carl Cameron, Fox News documentary... > Israel had foreknowledge thus was complicit in the events of 9/11... at > the very least... there is much more evidence of the direct involvement of > the controlled demolition of the WTC. > > Censored: Israeli software spying on US - AmDocs Comverse Infosys Carl > Cameron Dec 2001 > > > Censored: Israeli software spying on US - AmDocs Comverse Infosys Carl > Came... > All 4 parts of this subsequently censored Fox News report from December > 2001 Fox News Special Report. Part One. ... > > > > 9/11 was a false flag attack also to prompt the signing of the Patriot > Act, which was a 700 page document written long before 9/11 that part of > the plan to drastically step up the surveillance of American citizens. > > 9/11 Lies and Patriot Act Crimes with CIA Whistleblower Susan Lindauer > > > 9/11 Lies and Patriot Act Crimes with CIA Whistleblower Susan Lindauer > 9/11 cover-ups and the Patriot Act’s constitutional violations are exposed > by whistleblower and Extreme Prejudic... > > > > If anyone denies the credibility of the above, they are protecting Israel > and all the philo-Semites in the US government. > > AWARE purposely ignores this information because of Jewish power. > > also... > AWARE should be going after the Jewish power structure at UIUC that pushed > Prof. Salaita out of the UofI, but refuse to do so, supporting the claim > that AWARE is under the thumb of Jewish power at the campus of UIUC. > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo% > 2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com% > 7Ca68a709696234c49343508d53989d680%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa > aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478186527464724&sdata=1F5f3yk% > 2BjrC54qAw0zlelAVzDyuSQyX6kGDbiJXXm2Y%3D&reserved=0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rwhelbig at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 14:17:14 2017 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 06:17:14 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] New highly credible evidence... In-Reply-To: <2009979125.275960.1512223128351@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1411057191.294615.1512221780118.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1411057191.294615.1512221780118@mail.yahoo.com> <2009979125.275960.1512223128351@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Stephen, If Saudi Arabia is an ally of Israel, why is the existence of an Israeli visa in a passport grounds for Saudi refusal of a visa. Why is there no border crossing where the two countries intersect? I was explicitly told that an Israeli visa in my passport would result in my being refused entry to Saudi Arabia when I worked there in 1976. I also had colleagues who worked near the border of Israel in Saudi Arabia so I have some first hand knowledge. Roger Helbig On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 5:58 AM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > You're deflecting my comments to Saudi Arabia which is tantamount to > rejecting their credibility and proof of my points. > Saudi Arabia and Israel have been secret allies for decades and only now > has this come to the fore because of the threat of the failure of ISIS and > the US's fake war against it. Saudi Arabia and Israel have common purposes > and motives. > > > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 7:52 AM, Karen Aram > wrote: > > > There is documented evidence, that has been presented to the public, > proving the Saudi government paid for 9/11. It’s also known the Saudi’s > were the largest number of people involved in carrying out the action. > Unfortunately, the victims relatives have been prevented from suing the > Saudi government, given the Saudi’s are the USG closest allies. At least > that was the latest I heard on the topic. In the meantime, are the American > people rebelling against the USG alliance with these perpetrators of death? > And, yes we do know the Saudi’s have an alliance with Israel, to take out > Hezbollah, leading to war with Lebanon and Iran? The US is involved and > responsible for all. > > > > > On Dec 2, 2017, at 05:36, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > I predict that this post will garner the same (0) response that Professor > Boyle's comments on Neocon/Zionists received, but I will persevere. > On the 9/11 WTC7 controversy: > Professor and colleagues prove 9/11 official story is bunk! > University of Alaska, Fairbanks > Dr. J. Leroy Hulsey, Department Chair, Civil and Environmental > Engineering, PhD., Dr. Feng Xiao, Post-doctoral Researcher, Zhili Quan, > Ph.D. Student > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017 > > > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... > On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel > Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... > > > > Connect the dots and logic > > If WTC 7 official story is not only bunk but deliberate lies, then the > official narrative on planes and fires destroying the WTC is also bunk. > The theory that 9/11 was a false flag event to initiate the invasion of > Afghanistan and Iraq is no longer a 'conspiracy' theory but a provable fact. > > Professor Boyle's comments are backed up by this Carl Bernstein video and > mountains of evidence that support its premise: > Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish > Neocons' in Launching Iraq War > > > Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish Neoc... > > > > > Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth > 2,952 Architects and engineers are the backbone of this organization and > are supported by over 22,000 members. > > AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all > three World Trade Center skyscrapers on September 11 - Who we are > > > > AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all > three World Trade Center skyscrapers on ... > > > > Carl Cameron, Fox News documentary... > Israel had foreknowledge thus was complicit in the events of 9/11... at > the very least... there is much more evidence of the direct involvement of > the controlled demolition of the WTC. > > Censored: Israeli software spying on US - AmDocs Comverse Infosys Carl > Cameron Dec 2001 > > > Censored: Israeli software spying on US - AmDocs Comverse Infosys Carl > Came... > All 4 parts of this subsequently censored Fox News report from December > 2001 Fox News Special Report. Part One. ... > > > > 9/11 was a false flag attack also to prompt the signing of the Patriot > Act, which was a 700 page document written long before 9/11 that part of > the plan to drastically step up the surveillance of American citizens. > > 9/11 Lies and Patriot Act Crimes with CIA Whistleblower Susan Lindauer > > > 9/11 Lies and Patriot Act Crimes with CIA Whistleblower Susan Lindauer > 9/11 cover-ups and the Patriot Act’s constitutional violations are exposed > by whistleblower and Extreme Prejudic... > > > > If anyone denies the credibility of the above, they are protecting Israel > and all the philo-Semites in the US government. > > AWARE purposely ignores this information because of Jewish power. > > also... > AWARE should be going after the Jewish power structure at UIUC that pushed > Prof. Salaita out of the UofI, but refuse to do so, supporting the claim > that AWARE is under the thumb of Jewish power at the campus of UIUC. > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo% > 2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com% > 7Ca68a709696234c49343508d53989d680%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa > aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478186527464724&sdata=1F5f3yk% > 2BjrC54qAw0zlelAVzDyuSQyX6kGDbiJXXm2Y%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 14:21:16 2017 From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 14:21:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] New highly credible evidence... In-Reply-To: <011901d36b74$c8a596f0$59f0c4d0$@comcast.net> References: <1411057191.294615.1512221780118.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1411057191.294615.1512221780118@mail.yahoo.com> <011901d36b74$c8a596f0$59f0c4d0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1879053819.294426.1512224477255@mail.yahoo.com> I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc.As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred.This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal pscyopath.If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening. On Saturday, December 2, 2017 7:52 AM, David Johnson wrote: #yiv6389727094 #yiv6389727094 -- _filtered #yiv6389727094 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6389727094 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6389727094 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6389727094 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6389727094 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv6389727094 #yiv6389727094 p.yiv6389727094MsoNormal, #yiv6389727094 li.yiv6389727094MsoNormal, #yiv6389727094 div.yiv6389727094MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv6389727094 h2 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:18.0pt;}#yiv6389727094 a:link, #yiv6389727094 span.yiv6389727094MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6389727094 a:visited, #yiv6389727094 span.yiv6389727094MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6389727094 p.yiv6389727094MsoAcetate, #yiv6389727094 li.yiv6389727094MsoAcetate, #yiv6389727094 div.yiv6389727094MsoAcetate {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv6389727094 span.yiv6389727094Heading2Char {color:#4F81BD;font-weight:bold;}#yiv6389727094 span.yiv6389727094EmailStyle18 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv6389727094 span.yiv6389727094BalloonTextChar {}#yiv6389727094 .yiv6389727094MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv6389727094 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv6389727094 div.yiv6389727094WordSection1 {}#yiv6389727094 Well Stephen,  As you know, I do not believe the “ official “ Bush administration narrative about 9-11 and yes I also believe that it was the 21st century American version of the Reichstag fire that consolidated Hitler’s power in Germany.  What I and everyone else on this list take issue with you about is that instead of being focused on anti-Zionism you have allowed yourself to be poisoned with racist anti-Semitism.Remember Stephen, not all Jewish people are Zionists and it is not just Jewish people who are Zionists. There are a LOT of Christian fundamentalists and Fascists who are also Zionists.  So there is your response, I hope your happy.  David J.  From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 7:36 AM To: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Stephen Francis Subject: [Peace-discuss] New highly credible evidence...  I predict that this post will garner the same (0) response that Professor Boyle's comments on Neocon/Zionists received, but I will persevere.On the 9/11 WTC7 controversy:Professor and colleagues prove 9/11 official story is bunk!University of Alaska, FairbanksDr. J. Leroy Hulsey, Department Chair, Civil and Environmental Engineering, PhD., Dr. Feng Xiao, Post-doctoral Researcher, Zhili Quan, Ph.D. Student"WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017   | |   | | | | | | "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... | | | |  Connect the dots and logic  If WTC 7 official story is not only bunk but deliberate lies, then the official narrative on planes and fires destroying the WTC is also bunk.The theory that 9/11 was a false flag event to initiate the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq is no longer a 'conspiracy' theory but a provable fact.  Professor Boyle's comments are backed up by this Carl Bernstein video and mountains of evidence that support its premise: Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish Neocons' in Launching Iraq War   | |   | | | | | | Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish Neoc... | | | |    Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth2,952 Architects and engineers are the backbone of this organization and are supported by over 22,000 members. AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all three World Trade Center skyscrapers on September 11 - Who we are     | | | AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all three World Trade Center skyscrapers on ... | | |  Carl Cameron, Fox News documentary...Israel had foreknowledge thus was complicit in the events of 9/11... at the very least... there is much more evidence of the direct involvement of the controlled demolition of the WTC.  Censored: Israeli software spying on US - AmDocs Comverse Infosys Carl Cameron Dec 2001   | |   | | | | | | Censored: Israeli software spying on US - AmDocs Comverse Infosys Carl Came... All 4 parts of this subsequently censored Fox News report from December 2001 Fox News Special Report. Part One. ... | | | |  9/11 was a false flag attack also to prompt the signing of the Patriot Act, which was a 700 page document written long before 9/11 that part of the plan to drastically step up the surveillance of American citizens.  9/11 Lies and Patriot Act Crimes with CIA Whistleblower Susan Lindauer   | |   | | | | | | 9/11 Lies and Patriot Act Crimes with CIA Whistleblower Susan Lindauer 9/11 cover-ups and the Patriot Act’s constitutional violations are exposed by whistleblower and Extreme Prejudic... | | | |  If anyone denies the credibility of the above, they are protecting Israel and all the philo-Semites in the US government.  AWARE purposely ignores this information because of Jewish power.   also...AWARE should be going after the Jewish power structure at UIUC that pushed Prof. Salaita out of the UofI, but refuse to do so, supporting the claim that AWARE is under the thumb of Jewish power at the campus of UIUC.     -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 222795 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.png Type: image/png Size: 794 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 344 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.png Type: image/png Size: 182697 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image012.png Type: image/png Size: 183267 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image009.png Type: image/png Size: 792 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image010.png Type: image/png Size: 170486 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Dec 2 14:42:24 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 14:42:24 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wexler is a self-styled "Feminist" for Death and Destruction. Just like Robbenolt who invited Killer Koh out here. Just like fired and disgraced and sanctioned Dean Hurricane Heidi Hurd advocating torture. More Wolves in Sheep's Clothing at the Illiniwaks Law School. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:02 PM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Lesley Wexler is a Professor of Law at the University of Illinois College of Law. Professor Wexler writes, teaches and consults in the public international law fields, especially international humanitarian law, international disaster law, and human rights as well as in the anti-discrimination field more generally. The Illiniwaks College of Law's Resident Expert on how Israel can inflict war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians based upon her first-hand information and observation and exploration in situ. And also an "academic fellow" of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies that is now Campaigning heavily and full time to get Us Americans into a war of extermination against the Islamic Republic of Iran for the benefit of Israel. Such is the Illiniwaks Faculty at the Illiniwaks College of Law-Truly Orwellian! FAB WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH WE ALL LOVE BIG BROTHER REAGAN WAS PRESIDENT IN 1984 KILLER KOH WORKED FOR REAGAN IN 1984 Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 8:27 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh The Nazis Had Their Law Professors Too American Law Professors What have we become? American Law Professors for torture! American Law Professors for Gitmo Kangaroo Courts! American Law Professors for indefinite detention! American Law Professors for spying! American Law Professors for drone strikes! American Law Professors for murder! American Law Professors for assassinations! American Law Professors for war crimes! American Law Professors for crimes against humanity! American Law Professors for genocide! American Law Professors for wars of aggression! American Law Professors for murdering U.S. citizens! American Law Professors for murder courts! American Law Professors for trashing the U.S. Constitution! American Law Professors for trashing the Bill of Rights! American Law Professors for trashing International Law! American Law Professors for trashing Human Rights! How much lower can American Law Professors sink Into this criminal scheisse Of Nazi Legal Nihilism? The Nazis had their Law Professors too The worst of the bunch was Carl Schmitt Now we have: American Law Professors For Carl Schmitt! Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh Now at Berkeley Law too With Chaired John Yoo1 Killer Koh's poo Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:00 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} "Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us {Americans} into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Women! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Kids! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! UI Law Profs Say! How many People! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:34 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ 1 One of President Bushie Jr's most notorious torture lawyers and war criminals and a student of Harold Killer Koh at Yale Law School. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Dec 2 14:42:24 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 14:42:24 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wexler is a self-styled "Feminist" for Death and Destruction. Just like Robbenolt who invited Killer Koh out here. Just like fired and disgraced and sanctioned Dean Hurricane Heidi Hurd advocating torture. More Wolves in Sheep's Clothing at the Illiniwaks Law School. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:02 PM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Lesley Wexler is a Professor of Law at the University of Illinois College of Law. Professor Wexler writes, teaches and consults in the public international law fields, especially international humanitarian law, international disaster law, and human rights as well as in the anti-discrimination field more generally. The Illiniwaks College of Law's Resident Expert on how Israel can inflict war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians based upon her first-hand information and observation and exploration in situ. And also an "academic fellow" of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies that is now Campaigning heavily and full time to get Us Americans into a war of extermination against the Islamic Republic of Iran for the benefit of Israel. Such is the Illiniwaks Faculty at the Illiniwaks College of Law-Truly Orwellian! FAB WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH WE ALL LOVE BIG BROTHER REAGAN WAS PRESIDENT IN 1984 KILLER KOH WORKED FOR REAGAN IN 1984 Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 8:27 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh The Nazis Had Their Law Professors Too American Law Professors What have we become? American Law Professors for torture! American Law Professors for Gitmo Kangaroo Courts! American Law Professors for indefinite detention! American Law Professors for spying! American Law Professors for drone strikes! American Law Professors for murder! American Law Professors for assassinations! American Law Professors for war crimes! American Law Professors for crimes against humanity! American Law Professors for genocide! American Law Professors for wars of aggression! American Law Professors for murdering U.S. citizens! American Law Professors for murder courts! American Law Professors for trashing the U.S. Constitution! American Law Professors for trashing the Bill of Rights! American Law Professors for trashing International Law! American Law Professors for trashing Human Rights! How much lower can American Law Professors sink Into this criminal scheisse Of Nazi Legal Nihilism? The Nazis had their Law Professors too The worst of the bunch was Carl Schmitt Now we have: American Law Professors For Carl Schmitt! Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh Now at Berkeley Law too With Chaired John Yoo1 Killer Koh's poo Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:00 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} "Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us {Americans} into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Women! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Kids! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! UI Law Profs Say! How many People! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:34 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ 1 One of President Bushie Jr's most notorious torture lawyers and war criminals and a student of Harold Killer Koh at Yale Law School. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 14:43:00 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 08:43:00 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 In-Reply-To: <00f901d36b70$dd2bc9e0$97835da0$@comcast.net> References: <1275289966.5523896.1512082034732@mail.yahoo.com> <1715360317.5525883.1512084011899@mail.yahoo.com> <00f901d36b70$dd2bc9e0$97835da0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7301B725-AC01-4354-B299-9FDF48FFCAC8@gmail.com> Would you excuse a refusal to vote against S. African apartheid? > On Dec 2, 2017, at 7:24 AM, David Johnson wrote: > > Really Carl ? > > Your still beating that dead horse ? > > AGAIN, yes, she didn't vote against it but she was ONE of only TWO State Reps who REFUSED to vote for it ! > > If her abstention vote had made the difference of the resolution passing or not THEN you could heap condemnation, but since that was not the case and she DID resist Israeli consulate and Dem party head Madigan's pressure to vote for it, then she deserves at least partial praise and NOT condemnation. > > David J. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:36 PM > To: Stephen Francis > Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Karen Aram > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 > > Members of AWARE and the Prairiegreens met with state representative Carol Ammons two years ago to condemn her caving in to lobbying from the Israeli consulate and not voting against direction from the government of Israel on how UI monies should be used. > > > . —CGE > > >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 5:20 PM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> Would AWARE support this UofMichigan effort: .... NO! no way.... you'd find some way to dodge it. >> University of Michigan Students Pass Israel Divestment Resolution, >> Signaling Momentum Among Larger Schools >> http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/42739-university-michigan-students- >> pass-israel-divestment-resolution-signaling-momentum-among-larger-scho >> ols >> >> >> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:12 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >> >> >> Our “favorite” anti-semite is back folks. >> >> Good grief, Stephen, AWARE is not a pro Israeli fake antiwar organization, we take a lot of grief for criticizing Israel, what drugs are you on? Usually its just your rant blaming Jews for 9/11 or denying the Holocaust ever happened. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. >> >> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 14:47, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> Professor Boyle, >>> Your post on Wexler that included the following sentence must have crossed the 'anti-Semitic' line and consequently got no response.... predictably. >>> "As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." >>> AWARE is a basically a pro-Israel fake antiwar organization that fails (by design) to get to the real issues... that you so eloquently pointed out above. It is utterly taboo to give any serious thought or worlds to the real crimes of the Israeli government and its Jewish supremacists. >>> A story like the one below would also receive no traction: >>> ANALYSIS: Will Netanyahu risk exposing one of Israel’s secrets? >>> >>> ANALYSIS: Will Netanyahu risk exposing one of Israel’s secrets? >>> New law would tell Palestinian citizens in Israel that they are not >>> equal, say experts >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:36 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" wrote: >>> >>> >>> Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to >>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> peace-discuss-owner at lists.chambana.net >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..." >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Re: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, >>> Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>> (Boyle, Francis A) >>> 2. Re: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, >>> Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>> (Boyle, Francis A) >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:33:57 +0000 >>> From: "Boyle, Francis A" >>> To: 'David Green' , "Miller, Joseph Thomas" >>> , "'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com'" >>> , "'peace-discuss at anti-war.net'" >>> , "'C. G. ESTABROOK'" >>> , "'a-fields at uiuc.edu'" , >>> 'Joe Lauria' , >>> "'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net'" >>> , >>> "'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net'" >>> , "Szoke, Ron" >>> , 'Arlene Hickory' , 'Karen >>> Aram' , "'abass10 at gmail.com'" >>> , "'mickalideh at gmail.com'" , >>> 'Lina Thorne' , "'chicago at worldcantwait.net'" >>> , 'Jay' , 'David >>> Johnson' , 'Mildred O'brien' >>> , "'C G Estabrook'" >>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli >>> War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >>> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than >>> 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." >>> Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >>> >>> And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers >>> against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the >>> College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with >>> Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the >>> Palestinians. QED. fab >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Law Building >>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>> (personal comments only) >>> >>> From: Boyle, Francis A >>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM >>> To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas >>> ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >>> ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >>> ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >>> ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; >>> 'Joe Lauria' ; >>> 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >>> ; >>> 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >>> ; Szoke, Ron >>> ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen >>> Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >>> ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; >>> 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >>> ; 'Jay' ; 'David >>> Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' >>> ; 'C G Estabrook' >>> Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>> >>> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >>> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than >>> 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." >>> Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >>> >>> Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. >>> fab >>> >>> Hey! Hey! >>> Wexler Say! >>> How many women! >>> Did you kill today! >>> In Palestine! >>> >>> Hey! Hey! >>> Wexler say! >>> How many kids! >>> Did you kill today! >>> In Palestine! >>> >>> Hey! Hey! >>> Wexler Say! >>> How many Dads! >>> Did you kill today! >>> In Palestine! >>> Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for >>> the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the >>> Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. >>> >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Law Building >>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>> (personal comments only) >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>> scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> >> 30/25d39023/attachment-0001.html> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:33:57 +0000 >>> From: "Boyle, Francis A" >>> To: 'David Green' , "Miller, Joseph Thomas" >>> , "'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com'" >>> , "'peace-discuss at anti-war.net'" >>> , "'C. G. ESTABROOK'" >>> , "'a-fields at uiuc.edu'" , >>> 'Joe Lauria' , >>> "'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net'" >>> , >>> "'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net'" >>> , "Szoke, Ron" >>> , 'Arlene Hickory' , 'Karen >>> Aram' , "'abass10 at gmail.com'" >>> , "'mickalideh at gmail.com'" , >>> 'Lina Thorne' , "'chicago at worldcantwait.net'" >>> , 'Jay' , 'David >>> Johnson' , 'Mildred O'brien' >>> , "'C G Estabrook'" >>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli >>> War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >>> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than >>> 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." >>> Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >>> >>> And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers >>> against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the >>> College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with >>> Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the >>> Palestinians. QED. fab >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Law Building >>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>> (personal comments only) >>> >>> From: Boyle, Francis A >>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM >>> To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas >>> ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >>> ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >>> ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >>> ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; >>> 'Joe Lauria' ; >>> 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >>> ; >>> 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >>> ; Szoke, Ron >>> ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen >>> Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >>> ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; >>> 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >>> ; 'Jay' ; 'David >>> Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' >>> ; 'C G Estabrook' >>> Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>> >>> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >>> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than >>> 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." >>> Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >>> >>> Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. >>> fab >>> >>> Hey! Hey! >>> Wexler Say! >>> How many women! >>> Did you kill today! >>> In Palestine! >>> >>> Hey! Hey! >>> Wexler say! >>> How many kids! >>> Did you kill today! >>> In Palestine! >>> >>> Hey! Hey! >>> Wexler Say! >>> How many Dads! >>> Did you kill today! >>> In Palestine! >>> Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for >>> the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the >>> Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. >>> >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Law Building >>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>> (personal comments only) >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>> scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> >> 30/25d39023/attachment-0002.html> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Subject: Digest Footer >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 >>> *********************************************** >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flis >>> ts.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ck >>> arenaram%40hotmail.com%7C85857c977a0c40ede92108d538450c0a%7C84df9e7fe >>> 9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476791556968242&sdata=DGk2cH1Ym9 >>> DBL3DnifJWCkC5QkCmeM4ItBL4SDiQg3k%3D&reserved=0 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 14:54:26 2017 From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 14:54:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism References: <848040.312616.1512226466070.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <848040.312616.1512226466070@mail.yahoo.com> I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc.As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred.This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority.If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 2 14:59:53 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 14:59:53 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] New highly credible evidence... In-Reply-To: <2009979125.275960.1512223128351@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1411057191.294615.1512221780118.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1411057191.294615.1512221780118@mail.yahoo.com> <2009979125.275960.1512223128351@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That is one statement you have made to which I agree, that of Israel and the Saudi’s being complicit in many things for some time. However, when it comes to 9/11 there is evidence of Saudi involvement, “no” evidence of Israeli involvement. Either way, they both jump through the hoops the US puts before them. On Dec 2, 2017, at 05:58, Stephen Francis > wrote: You're deflecting my comments to Saudi Arabia which is tantamount to rejecting their credibility and proof of my points. Saudi Arabia and Israel have been secret allies for decades and only now has this come to the fore because of the threat of the failure of ISIS and the US's fake war against it. Saudi Arabia and Israel have common purposes and motives. On Saturday, December 2, 2017 7:52 AM, Karen Aram > wrote: There is documented evidence, that has been presented to the public, proving the Saudi government paid for 9/11. It’s also known the Saudi’s were the largest number of people involved in carrying out the action. Unfortunately, the victims relatives have been prevented from suing the Saudi government, given the Saudi’s are the USG closest allies. At least that was the latest I heard on the topic. In the meantime, are the American people rebelling against the USG alliance with these perpetrators of death? And, yes we do know the Saudi’s have an alliance with Israel, to take out Hezbollah, leading to war with Lebanon and Iran? The US is involved and responsible for all. On Dec 2, 2017, at 05:36, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss > wrote: I predict that this post will garner the same (0) response that Professor Boyle's comments on Neocon/Zionists received, but I will persevere. On the 9/11 WTC7 controversy: Professor and colleagues prove 9/11 official story is bunk! University of Alaska, Fairbanks Dr. J. Leroy Hulsey, Department Chair, Civil and Environmental Engineering, PhD., Dr. Feng Xiao, Post-doctoral Researcher, Zhili Quan, Ph.D. Student "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017 [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... Connect the dots and logic If WTC 7 official story is not only bunk but deliberate lies, then the official narrative on planes and fires destroying the WTC is also bunk. The theory that 9/11 was a false flag event to initiate the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq is no longer a 'conspiracy' theory but a provable fact. Professor Boyle's comments are backed up by this Carl Bernstein video and mountains of evidence that support its premise: Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish Neocons' in Launching Iraq War [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish Neoc... Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth 2,952 Architects and engineers are the backbone of this organization and are supported by over 22,000 members. AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all three World Trade Center skyscrapers on September 11 - Who we are AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all three World Trade Center skyscrapers on ... Carl Cameron, Fox News documentary... Israel had foreknowledge thus was complicit in the events of 9/11... at the very least... there is much more evidence of the direct involvement of the controlled demolition of the WTC. Censored: Israeli software spying on US - AmDocs Comverse Infosys Carl Cameron Dec 2001 [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] Censored: Israeli software spying on US - AmDocs Comverse Infosys Carl Came... All 4 parts of this subsequently censored Fox News report from December 2001 Fox News Special Report. Part One. ... 9/11 was a false flag attack also to prompt the signing of the Patriot Act, which was a 700 page document written long before 9/11 that part of the plan to drastically step up the surveillance of American citizens. 9/11 Lies and Patriot Act Crimes with CIA Whistleblower Susan Lindauer [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] 9/11 Lies and Patriot Act Crimes with CIA Whistleblower Susan Lindauer 9/11 cover-ups and the Patriot Act’s constitutional violations are exposed by whistleblower and Extreme Prejudic... If anyone denies the credibility of the above, they are protecting Israel and all the philo-Semites in the US government. AWARE purposely ignores this information because of Jewish power. also... AWARE should be going after the Jewish power structure at UIUC that pushed Prof. Salaita out of the UofI, but refuse to do so, supporting the claim that AWARE is under the thumb of Jewish power at the campus of UIUC. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Ca68a709696234c49343508d53989d680%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478186527464724&sdata=1F5f3yk%2BjrC54qAw0zlelAVzDyuSQyX6kGDbiJXXm2Y%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 2 15:09:18 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 15:09:18 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] New highly credible evidence... In-Reply-To: References: <1411057191.294615.1512221780118.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1411057191.294615.1512221780118@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The most recent news I’m aware of is Andrew Cockburns article in the October issue of “Harpers.” it’s optimistic that the legal trial is going forward. On Dec 2, 2017, at 06:12, Roger Helbig > wrote: Karen - where is this documented evidence that Saudi government paid for 9/11? -- references to valid documents would be appreciated. Yes, the "muscle" of the hijackers were Saudi Arabians. You may not even know if they expected to die that day - the pilots certainly did, but none of them were Saudi. Roger I am no fan of Saudi Arabia - I have been there - was there for three months in 1976 - I felt really glad to be back in America and not to be in a very rigid dictatorship - it is a hereditary monarchy but also really a dictatorship. On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 5:52 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: There is documented evidence, that has been presented to the public, proving the Saudi government paid for 9/11. It’s also known the Saudi’s were the largest number of people involved in carrying out the action. Unfortunately, the victims relatives have been prevented from suing the Saudi government, given the Saudi’s are the USG closest allies. At least that was the latest I heard on the topic. In the meantime, are the American people rebelling against the USG alliance with these perpetrators of death? And, yes we do know the Saudi’s have an alliance with Israel, to take out Hezbollah, leading to war with Lebanon and Iran? The US is involved and responsible for all. On Dec 2, 2017, at 05:36, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss > wrote: I predict that this post will garner the same (0) response that Professor Boyle's comments on Neocon/Zionists received, but I will persevere. On the 9/11 WTC7 controversy: Professor and colleagues prove 9/11 official story is bunk! University of Alaska, Fairbanks Dr. J. Leroy Hulsey, Department Chair, Civil and Environmental Engineering, PhD., Dr. Feng Xiao, Post-doctoral Researcher, Zhili Quan, Ph.D. Student "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017 [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... Connect the dots and logic If WTC 7 official story is not only bunk but deliberate lies, then the official narrative on planes and fires destroying the WTC is also bunk. The theory that 9/11 was a false flag event to initiate the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq is no longer a 'conspiracy' theory but a provable fact. Professor Boyle's comments are backed up by this Carl Bernstein video and mountains of evidence that support its premise: Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish Neocons' in Launching Iraq War [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] Jewish-American Journalist Carl Bernstein reveals the role 'Jewish Neoc... Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth 2,952 Architects and engineers are the backbone of this organization and are supported by over 22,000 members. AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all three World Trade Center skyscrapers on September 11 - Who we are AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all three World Trade Center skyscrapers on ... Carl Cameron, Fox News documentary... Israel had foreknowledge thus was complicit in the events of 9/11... at the very least... there is much more evidence of the direct involvement of the controlled demolition of the WTC. Censored: Israeli software spying on US - AmDocs Comverse Infosys Carl Cameron Dec 2001 [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] Censored: Israeli software spying on US - AmDocs Comverse Infosys Carl Came... All 4 parts of this subsequently censored Fox News report from December 2001 Fox News Special Report. Part One. ... 9/11 was a false flag attack also to prompt the signing of the Patriot Act, which was a 700 page document written long before 9/11 that part of the plan to drastically step up the surveillance of American citizens. 9/11 Lies and Patriot Act Crimes with CIA Whistleblower Susan Lindauer [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] 9/11 Lies and Patriot Act Crimes with CIA Whistleblower Susan Lindauer 9/11 cover-ups and the Patriot Act’s constitutional violations are exposed by whistleblower and Extreme Prejudic... If anyone denies the credibility of the above, they are protecting Israel and all the philo-Semites in the US government. AWARE purposely ignores this information because of Jewish power. also... AWARE should be going after the Jewish power structure at UIUC that pushed Prof. Salaita out of the UofI, but refuse to do so, supporting the claim that AWARE is under the thumb of Jewish power at the campus of UIUC. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Ca68a709696234c49343508d53989d680%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478186527464724&sdata=1F5f3yk%2BjrC54qAw0zlelAVzDyuSQyX6kGDbiJXXm2Y%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 2 15:10:44 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 15:10:44 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 In-Reply-To: <7301B725-AC01-4354-B299-9FDF48FFCAC8@gmail.com> References: <1275289966.5523896.1512082034732@mail.yahoo.com> <1715360317.5525883.1512084011899@mail.yahoo.com> <00f901d36b70$dd2bc9e0$97835da0$@comcast.net> <7301B725-AC01-4354-B299-9FDF48FFCAC8@gmail.com> Message-ID: As I said, “vultures” like Stephen Francis, stirring up the kettle of chaos, just like the USG. > On Dec 2, 2017, at 06:43, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Would you excuse a refusal to vote against S. African apartheid? > > >> On Dec 2, 2017, at 7:24 AM, David Johnson wrote: >> >> Really Carl ? >> >> Your still beating that dead horse ? >> >> AGAIN, yes, she didn't vote against it but she was ONE of only TWO State Reps who REFUSED to vote for it ! >> >> If her abstention vote had made the difference of the resolution passing or not THEN you could heap condemnation, but since that was not the case and she DID resist Israeli consulate and Dem party head Madigan's pressure to vote for it, then she deserves at least partial praise and NOT condemnation. >> >> David J. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:36 PM >> To: Stephen Francis >> Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Karen Aram >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 >> >> Members of AWARE and the Prairiegreens met with state representative Carol Ammons two years ago to condemn her caving in to lobbying from the Israeli consulate and not voting against direction from the government of Israel on how UI monies should be used. >> >> >> . —CGE >> >> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 5:20 PM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> Would AWARE support this UofMichigan effort: .... NO! no way.... you'd find some way to dodge it. >>> University of Michigan Students Pass Israel Divestment Resolution, >>> Signaling Momentum Among Larger Schools >>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.truth-out.org%2Fnews%2Fitem%2F42739-university-michigan-students-&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C5a88e52405f14415b93908d5399315b8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478226243280628&sdata=ggBWJcU0w4jSa%2BJAFIdg%2BotDGoQsx%2F8dqGdICc9zsN8%3D&reserved=0 >>> pass-israel-divestment-resolution-signaling-momentum-among-larger-scho >>> ols >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:12 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>> >>> >>> Our “favorite” anti-semite is back folks. >>> >>> Good grief, Stephen, AWARE is not a pro Israeli fake antiwar organization, we take a lot of grief for criticizing Israel, what drugs are you on? Usually its just your rant blaming Jews for 9/11 or denying the Holocaust ever happened. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 14:47, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> Professor Boyle, >>>> Your post on Wexler that included the following sentence must have crossed the 'anti-Semitic' line and consequently got no response.... predictably. >>>> "As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." >>>> AWARE is a basically a pro-Israel fake antiwar organization that fails (by design) to get to the real issues... that you so eloquently pointed out above. It is utterly taboo to give any serious thought or worlds to the real crimes of the Israeli government and its Jewish supremacists. >>>> A story like the one below would also receive no traction: >>>> ANALYSIS: Will Netanyahu risk exposing one of Israel’s secrets? >>>> >>>> ANALYSIS: Will Netanyahu risk exposing one of Israel’s secrets? >>>> New law would tell Palestinian citizens in Israel that they are not >>>> equal, say experts >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:36 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to >>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C5a88e52405f14415b93908d5399315b8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478226243280628&sdata=wGUfoHP4eUFnW6tCshXX4dmiyxD0cdh%2FRJCideK1wSU%3D&reserved=0 >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net >>>> >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> peace-discuss-owner at lists.chambana.net >>>> >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>> than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..." >>>> >>>> >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Re: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, >>>> Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>>> (Boyle, Francis A) >>>> 2. Re: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, >>>> Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>>> (Boyle, Francis A) >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> - >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:33:57 +0000 >>>> From: "Boyle, Francis A" >>>> To: 'David Green' , "Miller, Joseph Thomas" >>>> , "'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com'" >>>> , "'peace-discuss at anti-war.net'" >>>> , "'C. G. ESTABROOK'" >>>> , "'a-fields at uiuc.edu'" , >>>> 'Joe Lauria' , >>>> "'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net'" >>>> , >>>> "'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net'" >>>> , "Szoke, Ron" >>>> , 'Arlene Hickory' , 'Karen >>>> Aram' , "'abass10 at gmail.com'" >>>> , "'mickalideh at gmail.com'" , >>>> 'Lina Thorne' , "'chicago at worldcantwait.net'" >>>> , 'Jay' , 'David >>>> Johnson' , 'Mildred O'brien' >>>> , "'C G Estabrook'" >>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli >>>> War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>>> Message-ID: >>>> >>>> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> >>>> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >>>> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than >>>> 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." >>>> Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >>>> >>>> And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers >>>> against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the >>>> College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with >>>> Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the >>>> Palestinians. QED. fab >>>> >>>> Francis A. Boyle >>>> Law Building >>>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>>> (personal comments only) >>>> >>>> From: Boyle, Francis A >>>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM >>>> To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas >>>> ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >>>> ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >>>> ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >>>> ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; >>>> 'Joe Lauria' ; >>>> 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >>>> ; >>>> 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >>>> ; Szoke, Ron >>>> ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen >>>> Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >>>> ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; >>>> 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >>>> ; 'Jay' ; 'David >>>> Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' >>>> ; 'C G Estabrook' >>>> Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>>> >>>> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >>>> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than >>>> 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." >>>> Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >>>> >>>> Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. >>>> fab >>>> >>>> Hey! Hey! >>>> Wexler Say! >>>> How many women! >>>> Did you kill today! >>>> In Palestine! >>>> >>>> Hey! Hey! >>>> Wexler say! >>>> How many kids! >>>> Did you kill today! >>>> In Palestine! >>>> >>>> Hey! Hey! >>>> Wexler Say! >>>> How many Dads! >>>> Did you kill today! >>>> In Palestine! >>>> Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for >>>> the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the >>>> Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. >>>> >>>> >>>> Francis A. Boyle >>>> Law Building >>>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>>> (personal comments only) >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>>> scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> >>> 30/25d39023/attachment-0001.html> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:33:57 +0000 >>>> From: "Boyle, Francis A" >>>> To: 'David Green' , "Miller, Joseph Thomas" >>>> , "'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com'" >>>> , "'peace-discuss at anti-war.net'" >>>> , "'C. G. ESTABROOK'" >>>> , "'a-fields at uiuc.edu'" , >>>> 'Joe Lauria' , >>>> "'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net'" >>>> , >>>> "'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net'" >>>> , "Szoke, Ron" >>>> , 'Arlene Hickory' , 'Karen >>>> Aram' , "'abass10 at gmail.com'" >>>> , "'mickalideh at gmail.com'" , >>>> 'Lina Thorne' , "'chicago at worldcantwait.net'" >>>> , 'Jay' , 'David >>>> Johnson' , 'Mildred O'brien' >>>> , "'C G Estabrook'" >>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli >>>> War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>>> Message-ID: >>>> >>>> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> >>>> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >>>> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than >>>> 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." >>>> Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >>>> >>>> And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers >>>> against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the >>>> College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with >>>> Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the >>>> Palestinians. QED. fab >>>> >>>> Francis A. Boyle >>>> Law Building >>>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>>> (personal comments only) >>>> >>>> From: Boyle, Francis A >>>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM >>>> To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas >>>> ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >>>> ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >>>> ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >>>> ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; >>>> 'Joe Lauria' ; >>>> 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >>>> ; >>>> 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >>>> ; Szoke, Ron >>>> ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen >>>> Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >>>> ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; >>>> 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >>>> ; 'Jay' ; 'David >>>> Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' >>>> ; 'C G Estabrook' >>>> Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>>> >>>> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >>>> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than >>>> 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." >>>> Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >>>> >>>> Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. >>>> fab >>>> >>>> Hey! Hey! >>>> Wexler Say! >>>> How many women! >>>> Did you kill today! >>>> In Palestine! >>>> >>>> Hey! Hey! >>>> Wexler say! >>>> How many kids! >>>> Did you kill today! >>>> In Palestine! >>>> >>>> Hey! Hey! >>>> Wexler Say! >>>> How many Dads! >>>> Did you kill today! >>>> In Palestine! >>>> Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for >>>> the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the >>>> Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. >>>> >>>> >>>> Francis A. Boyle >>>> Law Building >>>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>>> (personal comments only) >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>>> scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> >>> 30/25d39023/attachment-0002.html> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Subject: Digest Footer >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C5a88e52405f14415b93908d5399315b8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478226243280628&sdata=wGUfoHP4eUFnW6tCshXX4dmiyxD0cdh%2FRJCideK1wSU%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 >>>> *********************************************** >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flis >>>> ts.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ck >>>> arenaram%40hotmail.com%7C85857c977a0c40ede92108d538450c0a%7C84df9e7fe >>>> 9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476791556968242&sdata=DGk2cH1Ym9 >>>> DBL3DnifJWCkC5QkCmeM4ItBL4SDiQg3k%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C5a88e52405f14415b93908d5399315b8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478226243280628&sdata=wGUfoHP4eUFnW6tCshXX4dmiyxD0cdh%2FRJCideK1wSU%3D&reserved=0 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C5a88e52405f14415b93908d5399315b8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478226243280628&sdata=wGUfoHP4eUFnW6tCshXX4dmiyxD0cdh%2FRJCideK1wSU%3D&reserved=0 >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C5a88e52405f14415b93908d5399315b8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478226243280628&sdata=wGUfoHP4eUFnW6tCshXX4dmiyxD0cdh%2FRJCideK1wSU%3D&reserved=0 From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 2 15:21:23 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 15:21:23 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism In-Reply-To: <848040.312616.1512226466070@mail.yahoo.com> References: <848040.312616.1512226466070.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <848040.312616.1512226466070@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Stephen, I’m sorry but you asked for it. Members of this community, not all AWARE members, have pointed out that you aren’t just anti-semitic due to a relative or someone being Jewish, but that you are a Neo Nazi. I apologize for the here-say as I know its irrelevant. You proven if not your Neo Nazi involvement, certainly your sentiments, not by just the crap you say, but by your postings in the past taken from Neo Nazi websites. Neo Nazi’s have never been known for their anti-war “stance” so I have to ask why are you on this Peace Discuss List if not to create chaos? Maybe you’re one of the local FBI contractors, you know, not professional, not paid but rewarded monetarily if you disrupt and destroy anti-war organizations and/or movements? On Dec 2, 2017, at 06:54, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss > wrote: I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C49f87308730944e6df0208d53994a4f3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478232937453000&sdata=p9hp9TG8sgHarpzTmMdVj47IcQd9JXswTy6WSOO38MI%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 15:41:27 2017 From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 15:41:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism In-Reply-To: References: <848040.312616.1512226466070.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <848040.312616.1512226466070@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1057183494.334328.1512229287465@mail.yahoo.com> I'm unequivocally NOT a neo-Nazi.... my roots go back to 1969 as an Army in-uniform antiwar protester who was jailed for protesting the Vietnam War on Veterans Day of that year.I have thoroughly researched WWI and II and have come to the conclusion that Zionists and western Jewish banksters cooked up those wars and propped up Hitler (through IG Farben, the Bushes, Harrimans..etc) for unimaginable war profiteering gains.... and to create the State of Israel... (Balfour, British Mandate, Haavara emigration agreements, Rothschild funding of Jewish settlements in the 1890s...)Because I don't toe the official Hitler orthodoxy, I'm branded an anti-Semite, but that is, unfortunately, nothing I can remedy.The statement "All wars are bankers wars" best represent my beliefs.... Jews and philo-Semites have dominating banking since biblical times....and have profited greatly by financing both sides of conflicts...absolutely proven true....and just a small piece of evidence in a massive pile of such.These people are my enemies.... and anyone who ignores or obfuscates these facts. On Saturday, December 2, 2017 9:21 AM, Karen Aram wrote: Stephen, I’m sorry but you asked for it.  Members of this community, not all AWARE members, have pointed out that you aren’t just anti-semitic due to a relative or someone being Jewish, but that you are a Neo Nazi. I apologize for the here-say as I know its irrelevant. You proven if not your Neo Nazi involvement, certainly your sentiments, not by just the crap you say, but by your postings in the past taken from Neo Nazi websites. Neo Nazi’s have never been known for their anti-war “stance” so I have to ask why are you on this Peace Discuss List if not to create chaos?  Maybe you’re one of the local FBI contractors, you know, not professional, not paid but rewarded monetarily if you disrupt and destroy anti-war organizations and/or movements?   On Dec 2, 2017, at 06:54, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc.As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred.This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority.If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C49f87308730944e6df0208d53994a4f3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478232937453000&sdata=p9hp9TG8sgHarpzTmMdVj47IcQd9JXswTy6WSOO38MI%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 2 16:14:47 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:14:47 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism In-Reply-To: <1057183494.334328.1512229287465@mail.yahoo.com> References: <848040.312616.1512226466070.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <848040.312616.1512226466070@mail.yahoo.com> <1057183494.334328.1512229287465@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: “It’s “class” stupid." Class, capitalism, the elites. It’s not about race, nationality, or religion, it’s the elites supporting the “for profit system” of every government, nation. This is what needs to be acknowledged and remedied. On Dec 2, 2017, at 07:41, Stephen Francis > wrote: I'm unequivocally NOT a neo-Nazi.... my roots go back to 1969 as an Army in-uniform antiwar protester who was jailed for protesting the Vietnam War on Veterans Day of that year. I have thoroughly researched WWI and II and have come to the conclusion that Zionists and western Jewish banksters cooked up those wars and propped up Hitler (through IG Farben, the Bushes, Harrimans..etc) for unimaginable war profiteering gains.... and to create the State of Israel... (Balfour, British Mandate, Haavara emigration agreements, Rothschild funding of Jewish settlements in the 1890s...) Because I don't toe the official Hitler orthodoxy, I'm branded an anti-Semite, but that is, unfortunately, nothing I can remedy. The statement "All wars are bankers wars" best represent my beliefs.... Jews and philo-Semites have dominating banking since biblical times....and have profited greatly by financing both sides of conflicts...absolutely proven true....and just a small piece of evidence in a massive pile of such. These people are my enemies.... and anyone who ignores or obfuscates these facts. On Saturday, December 2, 2017 9:21 AM, Karen Aram > wrote: Stephen, I’m sorry but you asked for it. Members of this community, not all AWARE members, have pointed out that you aren’t just anti-semitic due to a relative or someone being Jewish, but that you are a Neo Nazi. I apologize for the here-say as I know its irrelevant. You proven if not your Neo Nazi involvement, certainly your sentiments, not by just the crap you say, but by your postings in the past taken from Neo Nazi websites. Neo Nazi’s have never been known for their anti-war “stance” so I have to ask why are you on this Peace Discuss List if not to create chaos? Maybe you’re one of the local FBI contractors, you know, not professional, not paid but rewarded monetarily if you disrupt and destroy anti-war organizations and/or movements? On Dec 2, 2017, at 06:54, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss > wrote: I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C49f87308730944e6df0208d53994a4f3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478232937453000&sdata=p9hp9TG8sgHarpzTmMdVj47IcQd9JXswTy6WSOO38MI%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davegreen84 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 16:17:54 2017 From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:17:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Demonstration today In-Reply-To: <160177f2207-194b-e8f@webjas-vad053.srv.aolmail.net> References: <160177f2207-194b-e8f@webjas-vad053.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <1864087484.347821.1512231474385@mail.yahoo.com> I will be there with the signs at 2. DG On Saturday, December 2, 2017, 7:51:57 AM CST, Mildred O'brien via Peace-discuss wrote: I was planning to attend this afternoon, unless it is cancelled by everyone. Midge O'Brien _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davegreen84 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 16:17:54 2017 From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:17:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Demonstration today In-Reply-To: <160177f2207-194b-e8f@webjas-vad053.srv.aolmail.net> References: <160177f2207-194b-e8f@webjas-vad053.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <1864087484.347821.1512231474385@mail.yahoo.com> I will be there with the signs at 2. DG On Saturday, December 2, 2017, 7:51:57 AM CST, Mildred O'brien via Peace-discuss wrote: I was planning to attend this afternoon, unless it is cancelled by everyone. Midge O'Brien _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davegreen84 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 16:21:06 2017 From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:21:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism In-Reply-To: References: <848040.312616.1512226466070.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <848040.312616.1512226466070@mail.yahoo.com> <1057183494.334328.1512229287465@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1542130102.315500.1512231666469@mail.yahoo.com> Stephen, I would have more respect for you if you just attributed all of our earthly problems to space aliens. On Saturday, December 2, 2017, 10:15:13 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: “It’s “class” stupid."  Class, capitalism, the elites. It’s not about race, nationality, or religion, it’s the elites supporting the “for profit system” of every government, nation. This is what needs to be acknowledged and remedied.  On Dec 2, 2017, at 07:41, Stephen Francis wrote: I'm unequivocally NOT a neo-Nazi.... my roots go back to 1969 as an Army in-uniform antiwar protester who was jailed for protesting the Vietnam War on Veterans Day of that year.I have thoroughly researched WWI and II and have come to the conclusion that Zionists and western Jewish banksters cooked up those wars and propped up Hitler (through IG Farben, the Bushes, Harrimans..etc) for unimaginable war profiteering gains.... and to create the State of Israel... (Balfour, British Mandate, Haavara emigration agreements, Rothschild funding of Jewish settlements in the 1890s...)Because I don't toe the official Hitler orthodoxy, I'm branded an anti-Semite, but that is, unfortunately, nothing I can remedy.The statement "All wars are bankers wars" best represent my beliefs.... Jews and philo-Semites have dominating banking since biblical times....and have profited greatly by financing both sides of conflicts...absolutely proven true....and just a small piece of evidence in a massive pile of such.These people are my enemies.... and anyone who ignores or obfuscates these facts. On Saturday, December 2, 2017 9:21 AM, Karen Aram wrote: Stephen, I’m sorry but you asked for it.  Members of this community, not all AWARE members, have pointed out that you aren’t just anti-semitic due to a relative or someone being Jewish, but that you are a Neo Nazi. I apologize for the here-say as I know its irrelevant. You proven if not your Neo Nazi involvement, certainly your sentiments, not by just the crap you say, but by your postings in the past taken from Neo Nazi websites. Neo Nazi’s have never been known for their anti-war “stance” so I have to ask why are you on this Peace Discuss List if not to create chaos?  Maybe you’re one of the local FBI contractors, you know, not professional, not paid but rewarded monetarily if you disrupt and destroy anti-war organizations and/or movements?   On Dec 2, 2017, at 06:54, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc.As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred.This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority.If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C49f87308730944e6df0208d53994a4f3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478232937453000&sdata=p9hp9TG8sgHarpzTmMdVj47IcQd9JXswTy6WSOO38MI%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 16:38:50 2017 From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:38:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism References: <1066584954.325917.1512232730791.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1066584954.325917.1512232730791@mail.yahoo.com> to Mr. Green... and Professor Boyle below.... Can you give me a credible reason to change my views on monotheism and the destruction of the Temples in this post of mine:I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc.As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred.This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. I'm sure you would disagree with it, but it has a considerable presence on the internet....that is backed up plenty of credible evidence... and, is there an academic (Francis Boyle?) on this site that will peer review Professor Hulsey's work on WTC 7 "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017 | | | | | | | | | | | "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... | | | | On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:21 AM, David Green wrote: Stephen, I would have more respect for you if you just attributed all of our earthly problems to space aliens. On Saturday, December 2, 2017, 10:15:13 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: “It’s “class” stupid."  Class, capitalism, the elites. It’s not about race, nationality, or religion, it’s the elites supporting the “for profit system” of every government, nation. This is what needs to be acknowledged and remedied.  On Dec 2, 2017, at 07:41, Stephen Francis wrote: I'm unequivocally NOT a neo-Nazi.... my roots go back to 1969 as an Army in-uniform antiwar protester who was jailed for protesting the Vietnam War on Veterans Day of that year.I have thoroughly researched WWI and II and have come to the conclusion that Zionists and western Jewish banksters cooked up those wars and propped up Hitler (through IG Farben, the Bushes, Harrimans..etc) for unimaginable war profiteering gains.... and to create the State of Israel... (Balfour, British Mandate, Haavara emigration agreements, Rothschild funding of Jewish settlements in the 1890s...)Because I don't toe the official Hitler orthodoxy, I'm branded an anti-Semite, but that is, unfortunately, nothing I can remedy.The statement "All wars are bankers wars" best represent my beliefs.... Jews and philo-Semites have dominating banking since biblical times....and have profited greatly by financing both sides of conflicts...absolutely proven true....and just a small piece of evidence in a massive pile of such.These people are my enemies.... and anyone who ignores or obfuscates these facts. On Saturday, December 2, 2017 9:21 AM, Karen Aram wrote: Stephen, I’m sorry but you asked for it.  Members of this community, not all AWARE members, have pointed out that you aren’t just anti-semitic due to a relative or someone being Jewish, but that you are a Neo Nazi. I apologize for the here-say as I know its irrelevant. You proven if not your Neo Nazi involvement, certainly your sentiments, not by just the crap you say, but by your postings in the past taken from Neo Nazi websites. Neo Nazi’s have never been known for their anti-war “stance” so I have to ask why are you on this Peace Discuss List if not to create chaos?  Maybe you’re one of the local FBI contractors, you know, not professional, not paid but rewarded monetarily if you disrupt and destroy anti-war organizations and/or movements?   On Dec 2, 2017, at 06:54, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc.As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred.This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority.If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C49f87308730944e6df0208d53994a4f3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478232937453000&sdata=p9hp9TG8sgHarpzTmMdVj47IcQd9JXswTy6WSOO38MI%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Dec 2 16:48:29 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:48:29 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism In-Reply-To: <1066584954.325917.1512232730791@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1066584954.325917.1512232730791.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1066584954.325917.1512232730791@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Well without going back to look anything up, and off the top of my head, if I remember correctly from my World History Courses at the University of Chicago from the late, great William Hardy McNeill, monotheism first appeared in the Middle East in Egypt around the 18th Century B.C. under Pharaoh Amenhotep IV, who worshipped the Sun at the Only God and renamed himself Ikhnaton, Son of Aton, the Sun God. He then moved Egypt’s capital to Tel El Amarna from Memphis and set it up as a Holy City dedicated to the Worship of Aton, the Sun God. Fab. Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:39 AM To: David Green ; Boyle, Francis A Cc: Peace-discuss List Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism to Mr. Green... and Professor Boyle below.... Can you give me a credible reason to change my views on monotheism and the destruction of the Temples in this post of mine: I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. I'm sure you would disagree with it, but it has a considerable presence on the internet....that is backed up plenty of credible evidence... and, is there an academic (Francis Boyle?) on this site that will peer review Professor Hulsey's work on WTC 7 "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017 [cid:image001.jpg at 01D36B5B.12726840] [Text Box:] [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:21 AM, David Green > wrote: Stephen, I would have more respect for you if you just attributed all of our earthly problems to space aliens. On Saturday, December 2, 2017, 10:15:13 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: “It’s “class” stupid." Class, capitalism, the elites. It’s not about race, nationality, or religion, it’s the elites supporting the “for profit system” of every government, nation. This is what needs to be acknowledged and remedied. On Dec 2, 2017, at 07:41, Stephen Francis > wrote: I'm unequivocally NOT a neo-Nazi.... my roots go back to 1969 as an Army in-uniform antiwar protester who was jailed for protesting the Vietnam War on Veterans Day of that year. I have thoroughly researched WWI and II and have come to the conclusion that Zionists and western Jewish banksters cooked up those wars and propped up Hitler (through IG Farben, the Bushes, Harrimans..etc) for unimaginable war profiteering gains.... and to create the State of Israel... (Balfour, British Mandate, Haavara emigration agreements, Rothschild funding of Jewish settlements in the 1890s...) Because I don't toe the official Hitler orthodoxy, I'm branded an anti-Semite, but that is, unfortunately, nothing I can remedy. The statement "All wars are bankers wars" best represent my beliefs.... Jews and philo-Semites have dominating banking since biblical times....and have profited greatly by financing both sides of conflicts...absolutely proven true....and just a small piece of evidence in a massive pile of such. These people are my enemies.... and anyone who ignores or obfuscates these facts. On Saturday, December 2, 2017 9:21 AM, Karen Aram > wrote: Stephen, I’m sorry but you asked for it. Members of this community, not all AWARE members, have pointed out that you aren’t just anti-semitic due to a relative or someone being Jewish, but that you are a Neo Nazi. I apologize for the here-say as I know its irrelevant. You proven if not your Neo Nazi involvement, certainly your sentiments, not by just the crap you say, but by your postings in the past taken from Neo Nazi websites. Neo Nazi’s have never been known for their anti-war “stance” so I have to ask why are you on this Peace Discuss List if not to create chaos? Maybe you’re one of the local FBI contractors, you know, not professional, not paid but rewarded monetarily if you disrupt and destroy anti-war organizations and/or movements? On Dec 2, 2017, at 06:54, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss > wrote: I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C49f87308730944e6df0208d53994a4f3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478232937453000&sdata=p9hp9TG8sgHarpzTmMdVj47IcQd9JXswTy6WSOO38MI%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30014 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 1717 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 16:53:06 2017 From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:53:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2077591471.352141.1512233586240@mail.yahoo.com> Professor Boyle,Do you have any thoughts or inclination to review Professor Hulsey's work?"WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017 | | | | | | | | | | | "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... | | | | On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:48 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" wrote: Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to     peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net You can reach the person managing the list at     peace-discuss-owner at lists.chambana.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Re: anti-Semitism (Boyle, Francis A) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:48:29 +0000 From: "Boyle, Francis A" To: Stephen Francis , David Green     Cc: Peace-discuss List Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Well without going back to look anything up, and off the top of my head,  if I remember correctly from my World History Courses at the University of Chicago from the late, great William Hardy McNeill, monotheism first appeared in the Middle East in Egypt around the 18th Century B.C. under Pharaoh Amenhotep IV, who worshipped the Sun at the Only God and renamed himself Ikhnaton, Son of Aton, the Sun God. He then moved Egypt’s capital to Tel El Amarna from Memphis and set it up as a Holy City dedicated to the Worship of Aton, the Sun God. Fab. Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:39 AM To: David Green ; Boyle, Francis A Cc: Peace-discuss List Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism to Mr. Green... and Professor Boyle below.... Can you give me a credible reason to change my views on monotheism and the destruction of the Temples in this post of mine: I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. I'm sure you would disagree with it, but it has a considerable presence on the internet....that is backed up plenty of credible evidence... and, is there an academic (Francis Boyle?) on this site that will peer review Professor Hulsey's work on WTC 7 "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017         [cid:image001.jpg at 01D36B5B.12726840] [Text Box:] [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:21 AM, David Green > wrote: Stephen, I would have more respect for you if you just attributed all of our earthly problems to space aliens. On Saturday, December 2, 2017, 10:15:13 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: “It’s “class” stupid." Class, capitalism, the elites. It’s not about race, nationality, or religion, it’s the elites supporting the “for profit system” of every government, nation. This is what needs to be acknowledged and remedied. On Dec 2, 2017, at 07:41, Stephen Francis > wrote: I'm unequivocally NOT a neo-Nazi.... my roots go back to 1969 as an Army in-uniform antiwar protester who was jailed for protesting the Vietnam War on Veterans Day of that year. I have thoroughly researched WWI and II and have come to the conclusion that Zionists and western Jewish banksters cooked up those wars and propped up Hitler (through IG Farben, the Bushes, Harrimans..etc) for unimaginable war profiteering gains.... and to create the State of Israel... (Balfour, British Mandate, Haavara emigration agreements, Rothschild funding of Jewish settlements in the 1890s...) Because I don't toe the official Hitler orthodoxy, I'm branded an anti-Semite, but that is, unfortunately, nothing I can remedy. The statement "All wars are bankers wars" best represent my beliefs.... Jews and philo-Semites have dominating banking since biblical times....and have profited greatly by financing both sides of conflicts...absolutely proven true....and just a small piece of evidence in a massive pile of such. These people are my enemies.... and anyone who ignores or obfuscates these facts. On Saturday, December 2, 2017 9:21 AM, Karen Aram > wrote: Stephen, I’m sorry but you asked for it. Members of this community, not all AWARE members, have pointed out that you aren’t just anti-semitic due to a relative or someone being Jewish, but that you are a Neo Nazi. I apologize for the here-say as I know its irrelevant. You proven if not your Neo Nazi involvement, certainly your sentiments, not by just the crap you say, but by your postings in the past taken from Neo Nazi websites. Neo Nazi’s have never been known for their anti-war “stance” so I have to ask why are you on this Peace Discuss List if not to create chaos?  Maybe you’re one of the local FBI contractors, you know, not professional, not paid but rewarded monetarily if you disrupt and destroy anti-war organizations and/or movements? On Dec 2, 2017, at 06:54, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss > wrote: I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C49f87308730944e6df0208d53994a4f3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478232937453000&sdata=p9hp9TG8sgHarpzTmMdVj47IcQd9JXswTy6WSOO38MI%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30014 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 1717 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss ------------------------------ End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 ********************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmedina67 at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 16:53:39 2017 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (kmedina67) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2017 10:53:39 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 Message-ID: <5a22da97.18686b0a.48017.93d2@mx.google.com> Thank you, David.  -Karen Medina -------- Original message --------From: David Johnson via Peace-discuss Date: 12/2/17 07:24 (GMT-06:00) To: 'C G Estabrook' , peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 Really Carl ? Your still beating that dead horse ? AGAIN, yes, she didn't vote against it but she was ONE of only TWO State Reps who REFUSED to vote for it ! If her abstention vote had made the difference of the resolution  passing or not THEN you could heap condemnation, but since that was not the case and she DID resist Israeli consulate and Dem party head Madigan's pressure to vote for it, then she deserves at least partial praise and NOT condemnation. David J. -----Original Message----- From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:36 PM To: Stephen Francis Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Karen Aram Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 Members of AWARE and the Prairiegreens met with state representative Carol Ammons two years ago to condemn her caving in to lobbying from the Israeli consulate and not voting against direction from the government of Israel on how UI monies should be used. .  —CGE > On Nov 30, 2017, at 5:20 PM, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Would AWARE support this UofMichigan effort: .... NO! no way.... you'd find some way to dodge it. > University of Michigan Students Pass Israel Divestment Resolution, > Signaling Momentum Among Larger Schools > http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/42739-university-michigan-students- > pass-israel-divestment-resolution-signaling-momentum-among-larger-scho > ols > > > On Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:12 PM, Karen Aram wrote: > > > Our “favorite” anti-semite is back folks. > > Good grief, Stephen, AWARE is not a pro Israeli fake antiwar organization, we take a lot of grief for criticizing Israel, what drugs are you on? Usually its just your rant blaming Jews for 9/11 or denying the Holocaust ever happened. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. > > >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 14:47, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> Professor Boyle, >> Your post on Wexler that included the following sentence must have crossed the 'anti-Semitic' line and consequently got no response.... predictably. >> "As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." >> AWARE is a basically a pro-Israel fake antiwar organization that fails (by design) to get to the real issues... that you so eloquently pointed out above. It is utterly taboo to give any serious thought or worlds to the real crimes of the Israeli government and its Jewish supremacists. >> A story like the one below would also receive no traction: >> ANALYSIS: Will Netanyahu risk exposing one of Israel’s secrets? >> >> ANALYSIS: Will Netanyahu risk exposing one of Israel’s secrets? >> New law would tell Palestinian citizens in Israel that they are not >> equal, say experts >> >> >> >> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:36 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" wrote: >> >> >> Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to >>     peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>     https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>     peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >>     peace-discuss-owner at lists.chambana.net >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >>   1. Re: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, >>       Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>       (Boyle, Francis A) >>   2. Re: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, >>       Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >>       (Boyle, Francis A) >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:33:57 +0000 >> From: "Boyle, Francis A" >> To: 'David Green' , "Miller, Joseph Thomas" >>     , "'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com'" >>     , "'peace-discuss at anti-war.net'" >>     , "'C. G. ESTABROOK'" >>     , "'a-fields at uiuc.edu'" , >>     'Joe Lauria' , >>     "'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net'" >>     , >>     "'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net'" >>     , "Szoke, Ron" >>     , 'Arlene Hickory' , 'Karen >>     Aram' , "'abass10 at gmail.com'" >>     , "'mickalideh at gmail.com'" , >>     'Lina Thorne' , "'chicago at worldcantwait.net'" >>     , 'Jay' , 'David >>     Johnson' , 'Mildred O'brien' >>     , "'C G Estabrook'" >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli >>     War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >> Message-ID: >>     >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than >> 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." >> Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >> >> And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers >> against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color  at the >> College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with >> Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the >> Palestinians. QED. fab >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> Law Building >> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >> 217-333-7954 (phone) >> 217-244-1478 (fax) >> (personal comments only) >> >> From: Boyle, Francis A >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM >> To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas >> ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >> ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >> ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >> ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; >> 'Joe Lauria' ; >> 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >> ; >> 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >> ; Szoke, Ron >> ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen >> Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >> ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; >> 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >> ; 'Jay' ; 'David >> Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' >> ; 'C G Estabrook' >> Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >> >> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than >> 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." >> Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >> >> Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had  the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty  Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against  Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. >> fab >> >> Hey! Hey! >> Wexler Say! >> How many women! >> Did you kill today! >> In Palestine! >> >> Hey! Hey! >> Wexler say! >> How many kids! >> Did you kill today! >> In Palestine! >> >> Hey! Hey! >> Wexler Say! >> How many Dads! >> Did you kill today! >> In Palestine! >> Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for >> the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the >> Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. >> >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> Law Building >> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >> 217-333-7954 (phone) >> 217-244-1478 (fax) >> (personal comments only) >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >> scrubbed... >> URL: >> > 30/25d39023/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:33:57 +0000 >> From: "Boyle, Francis A" >> To: 'David Green' , "Miller, Joseph Thomas" >>     , "'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com'" >>     , "'peace-discuss at anti-war.net'" >>     , "'C. G. ESTABROOK'" >>     , "'a-fields at uiuc.edu'" , >>     'Joe Lauria' , >>     "'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net'" >>     , >>     "'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net'" >>     , "Szoke, Ron" >>     , 'Arlene Hickory' , 'Karen >>     Aram' , "'abass10 at gmail.com'" >>     , "'mickalideh at gmail.com'" , >>     'Lina Thorne' , "'chicago at worldcantwait.net'" >>     , 'Jay' , 'David >>     Johnson' , 'Mildred O'brien' >>     , "'C G Estabrook'" >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli >>     War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >> Message-ID: >>     >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than >> 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." >> Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >> >> And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers >> against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color  at the >> College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with >> Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the >> Palestinians. QED. fab >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> Law Building >> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >> 217-333-7954 (phone) >> 217-244-1478 (fax) >> (personal comments only) >> >> From: Boyle, Francis A >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM >> To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas >> ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >> ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >> ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >> ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; >> 'Joe Lauria' ; >> 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >> ; >> 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >> ; Szoke, Ron >> ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen >> Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >> ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; >> 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >> ; 'Jay' ; 'David >> Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' >> ; 'C G Estabrook' >> Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. >> >> "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme >> terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than >> 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." >> Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} >> >> Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had  the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty  Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against  Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. >> fab >> >> Hey! Hey! >> Wexler Say! >> How many women! >> Did you kill today! >> In Palestine! >> >> Hey! Hey! >> Wexler say! >> How many kids! >> Did you kill today! >> In Palestine! >> >> Hey! Hey! >> Wexler Say! >> How many Dads! >> Did you kill today! >> In Palestine! >> Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for >> the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the >> Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. >> >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> Law Building >> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >> 217-333-7954 (phone) >> 217-244-1478 (fax) >> (personal comments only) >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >> scrubbed... >> URL: >> > 30/25d39023/attachment-0002.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 >> *********************************************** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flis >> ts.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ck >> arenaram%40hotmail.com%7C85857c977a0c40ede92108d538450c0a%7C84df9e7fe >> 9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476791556968242&sdata=DGk2cH1Ym9 >> DBL3DnifJWCkC5QkCmeM4ItBL4SDiQg3k%3D&reserved=0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Dec 2 16:54:51 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:54:51 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: <2077591471.352141.1512233586240@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2077591471.352141.1512233586240@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There is a lot of literature out there you can read on this if you want to. Try David Ray Griffin with an Introduction by Professor Richard Falk. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:53 AM To: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Boyle, Francis A Subject: Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 Professor Boyle, Do you have any thoughts or inclination to review Professor Hulsey's work? "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017 [cid:image001.jpg at 01D36B5B.F9AC2200] [Text Box:] [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:48 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" > wrote: Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net You can reach the person managing the list at peace-discuss-owner at lists.chambana.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: anti-Semitism (Boyle, Francis A) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:48:29 +0000 From: "Boyle, Francis A" > To: Stephen Francis >, David Green > Cc: Peace-discuss List > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Well without going back to look anything up, and off the top of my head, if I remember correctly from my World History Courses at the University of Chicago from the late, great William Hardy McNeill, monotheism first appeared in the Middle East in Egypt around the 18th Century B.C. under Pharaoh Amenhotep IV, who worshipped the Sun at the Only God and renamed himself Ikhnaton, Son of Aton, the Sun God. He then moved Egypt’s capital to Tel El Amarna from Memphis and set it up as a Holy City dedicated to the Worship of Aton, the Sun God. Fab. Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:39 AM To: David Green >; Boyle, Francis A > Cc: Peace-discuss List > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism to Mr. Green... and Professor Boyle below.... Can you give me a credible reason to change my views on monotheism and the destruction of the Temples in this post of mine: I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. I'm sure you would disagree with it, but it has a considerable presence on the internet....that is backed up plenty of credible evidence... and, is there an academic (Francis Boyle?) on this site that will peer review Professor Hulsey's work on WTC 7 "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017 [cid:image001.jpg at 01D36B5B.12726840] [Text Box:] [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:21 AM, David Green >> wrote: Stephen, I would have more respect for you if you just attributed all of our earthly problems to space aliens. On Saturday, December 2, 2017, 10:15:13 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss >> wrote: “It’s “class” stupid." Class, capitalism, the elites. It’s not about race, nationality, or religion, it’s the elites supporting the “for profit system” of every government, nation. This is what needs to be acknowledged and remedied. On Dec 2, 2017, at 07:41, Stephen Francis >> wrote: I'm unequivocally NOT a neo-Nazi.... my roots go back to 1969 as an Army in-uniform antiwar protester who was jailed for protesting the Vietnam War on Veterans Day of that year. I have thoroughly researched WWI and II and have come to the conclusion that Zionists and western Jewish banksters cooked up those wars and propped up Hitler (through IG Farben, the Bushes, Harrimans..etc) for unimaginable war profiteering gains.... and to create the State of Israel... (Balfour, British Mandate, Haavara emigration agreements, Rothschild funding of Jewish settlements in the 1890s...) Because I don't toe the official Hitler orthodoxy, I'm branded an anti-Semite, but that is, unfortunately, nothing I can remedy. The statement "All wars are bankers wars" best represent my beliefs.... Jews and philo-Semites have dominating banking since biblical times....and have profited greatly by financing both sides of conflicts...absolutely proven true....and just a small piece of evidence in a massive pile of such. These people are my enemies.... and anyone who ignores or obfuscates these facts. On Saturday, December 2, 2017 9:21 AM, Karen Aram >> wrote: Stephen, I’m sorry but you asked for it. Members of this community, not all AWARE members, have pointed out that you aren’t just anti-semitic due to a relative or someone being Jewish, but that you are a Neo Nazi. I apologize for the here-say as I know its irrelevant. You proven if not your Neo Nazi involvement, certainly your sentiments, not by just the crap you say, but by your postings in the past taken from Neo Nazi websites. Neo Nazi’s have never been known for their anti-war “stance” so I have to ask why are you on this Peace Discuss List if not to create chaos? Maybe you’re one of the local FBI contractors, you know, not professional, not paid but rewarded monetarily if you disrupt and destroy anti-war organizations and/or movements? On Dec 2, 2017, at 06:54, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss >> wrote: I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C49f87308730944e6df0208d53994a4f3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478232937453000&sdata=p9hp9TG8sgHarpzTmMdVj47IcQd9JXswTy6WSOO38MI%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30014 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 1717 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss ------------------------------ End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 ********************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30014 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 1717 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 16:59:15 2017 From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:59:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: References: <2077591471.352141.1512233586240@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <85026042.360538.1512233955302@mail.yahoo.com> I'm talking about a formal academic Review of Hulsey's work...if that's the correct way to phrase it? On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:55 AM, "Boyle, Francis A" wrote: #yiv6269934823 #yiv6269934823 -- _filtered #yiv6269934823 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6269934823 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6269934823 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6269934823 {panose-1:2 11 10 4 2 1 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6269934823 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv6269934823 #yiv6269934823 p.yiv6269934823MsoNormal, #yiv6269934823 li.yiv6269934823MsoNormal, #yiv6269934823 div.yiv6269934823MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv6269934823 h2 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:18.0pt;}#yiv6269934823 a:link, #yiv6269934823 span.yiv6269934823MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6269934823 a:visited, #yiv6269934823 span.yiv6269934823MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6269934823 span.yiv6269934823Heading2Char {color:#2E74B5;}#yiv6269934823 span.yiv6269934823EmailStyle18 {color:#1F497D;font-weight:bold;}#yiv6269934823 .yiv6269934823MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv6269934823 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv6269934823 div.yiv6269934823WordSection1 {}#yiv6269934823 There is a lot of literature out there you can read on this if you want to. Try David Ray Griffin with an Introduction by Professor Richard Falk. Fab.   Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only)   From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:53 AM To: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Boyle, Francis A Subject: Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34   Professor Boyle, Do you have any thoughts or inclination to review Professor Hulsey's work? "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017   | | | | | | |   | | | | | | "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... | | | |     On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:48 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" wrote:   Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to    peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net   To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit    https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to    peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net   You can reach the person managing the list at    peace-discuss-owner at lists.chambana.net   When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..."     Today's Topics:     1. Re: anti-Semitism (Boyle, Francis A)     ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Message: 1 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:48:29 +0000 From: "Boyle, Francis A" To: Stephen Francis , David Green     Cc: Peace-discuss List Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"   Well without going back to look anything up, and off the top of my head,  if I remember correctly from my World History Courses at the University of Chicago from the late, great William Hardy McNeill, monotheism first appeared in the Middle East in Egypt around the 18th Century B.C. under Pharaoh Amenhotep IV, who worshipped the Sun at the Only God and renamed himself Ikhnaton, Son of Aton, the Sun God. He then moved Egypt’s capital to Tel El Amarna from Memphis and set it up as a Holy City dedicated to the Worship of Aton, the Sun God. Fab. Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only)   From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:39 AM To: David Green ; Boyle, Francis A Cc: Peace-discuss List Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism   to Mr. Green... and Professor Boyle below....   Can you give me a credible reason to change my views on monotheism and the destruction of the Temples in this post of mine: I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience.   There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority.   I'm sure you would disagree with it, but it has a considerable presence on the internet....that is backed up plenty of credible evidence...     and, is there an academic (Francis Boyle?) on this site that will peer review Professor Hulsey's work on WTC 7 "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017             [cid:image001.jpg at 01D36B5B.12726840]     [Text Box:]     [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png]   "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present...           On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:21 AM, David Green > wrote:   Stephen, I would have more respect for you if you just attributed all of our earthly problems to space aliens.   On Saturday, December 2, 2017, 10:15:13 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote:     “It’s “class” stupid."   Class, capitalism, the elites. It’s not about race, nationality, or religion, it’s the elites supporting the “for profit system” of every government, nation. This is what needs to be acknowledged and remedied.     On Dec 2, 2017, at 07:41, Stephen Francis > wrote:   I'm unequivocally NOT a neo-Nazi.... my roots go back to 1969 as an Army in-uniform antiwar protester who was jailed for protesting the Vietnam War on Veterans Day of that year. I have thoroughly researched WWI and II and have come to the conclusion that Zionists and western Jewish banksters cooked up those wars and propped up Hitler (through IG Farben, the Bushes, Harrimans..etc) for unimaginable war profiteering gains.... and to create the State of Israel... (Balfour, British Mandate, Haavara emigration agreements, Rothschild funding of Jewish settlements in the 1890s...) Because I don't toe the official Hitler orthodoxy, I'm branded an anti-Semite, but that is, unfortunately, nothing I can remedy. The statement "All wars are bankers wars" best represent my beliefs.... Jews and philo-Semites have dominating banking since biblical times....and have profited greatly by financing both sides of conflicts...absolutely proven true....and just a small piece of evidence in a massive pile of such. These people are my enemies.... and anyone who ignores or obfuscates these facts.   On Saturday, December 2, 2017 9:21 AM, Karen Aram > wrote:   Stephen, I’m sorry but you asked for it.   Members of this community, not all AWARE members, have pointed out that you aren’t just anti-semitic due to a relative or someone being Jewish, but that you are a Neo Nazi. I apologize for the here-say as I know its irrelevant. You proven if not your Neo Nazi involvement, certainly your sentiments, not by just the crap you say, but by your postings in the past taken from Neo Nazi websites.   Neo Nazi’s have never been known for their anti-war “stance” so I have to ask why are you on this Peace Discuss List if not to create chaos?  Maybe you’re one of the local FBI contractors, you know, not professional, not paid but rewarded monetarily if you disrupt and destroy anti-war organizations and/or movements?   On Dec 2, 2017, at 06:54, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss > wrote:   I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience.   There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening.   _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C49f87308730944e6df0208d53994a4f3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478232937453000&sdata=p9hp9TG8sgHarpzTmMdVj47IcQd9JXswTy6WSOO38MI%3D&reserved=0       _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30014 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 1717 bytes Desc: image002.png URL:   ------------------------------   Subject: Digest Footer   _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss     ------------------------------   End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 **********************************************   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30014 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 1717 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Dec 2 17:04:35 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 17:04:35 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: <85026042.360538.1512233955302@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2077591471.352141.1512233586240@mail.yahoo.com> <85026042.360538.1512233955302@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ask Professor Falk. He is a leader of the Lawyers for 9/11 Truth Movement. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:59 AM To: Boyle, Francis A ; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Cc: Stephen Francis Subject: Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 I'm talking about a formal academic Review of Hulsey's work...if that's the correct way to phrase it? On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:55 AM, "Boyle, Francis A" > wrote: There is a lot of literature out there you can read on this if you want to. Try David Ray Griffin with an Introduction by Professor Richard Falk. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:53 AM To: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Boyle, Francis A > Subject: Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 Professor Boyle, Do you have any thoughts or inclination to review Professor Hulsey's work? "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017 [cid:image003.jpg at 01D36B5D.55F5D0A0] [Text Box:] [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:48 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" > wrote: Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net You can reach the person managing the list at peace-discuss-owner at lists.chambana.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: anti-Semitism (Boyle, Francis A) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:48:29 +0000 From: "Boyle, Francis A" > To: Stephen Francis >, David Green > Cc: Peace-discuss List > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Well without going back to look anything up, and off the top of my head, if I remember correctly from my World History Courses at the University of Chicago from the late, great William Hardy McNeill, monotheism first appeared in the Middle East in Egypt around the 18th Century B.C. under Pharaoh Amenhotep IV, who worshipped the Sun at the Only God and renamed himself Ikhnaton, Son of Aton, the Sun God. He then moved Egypt’s capital to Tel El Amarna from Memphis and set it up as a Holy City dedicated to the Worship of Aton, the Sun God. Fab. Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:39 AM To: David Green >; Boyle, Francis A > Cc: Peace-discuss List > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism to Mr. Green... and Professor Boyle below.... Can you give me a credible reason to change my views on monotheism and the destruction of the Temples in this post of mine: I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. I'm sure you would disagree with it, but it has a considerable presence on the internet....that is backed up plenty of credible evidence... and, is there an academic (Francis Boyle?) on this site that will peer review Professor Hulsey's work on WTC 7 "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017 [cid:image001.jpg at 01D36B5B.12726840] [Text Box:] [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:21 AM, David Green >> wrote: Stephen, I would have more respect for you if you just attributed all of our earthly problems to space aliens. On Saturday, December 2, 2017, 10:15:13 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss >> wrote: “It’s “class” stupid." Class, capitalism, the elites. It’s not about race, nationality, or religion, it’s the elites supporting the “for profit system” of every government, nation. This is what needs to be acknowledged and remedied. On Dec 2, 2017, at 07:41, Stephen Francis >> wrote: I'm unequivocally NOT a neo-Nazi.... my roots go back to 1969 as an Army in-uniform antiwar protester who was jailed for protesting the Vietnam War on Veterans Day of that year. I have thoroughly researched WWI and II and have come to the conclusion that Zionists and western Jewish banksters cooked up those wars and propped up Hitler (through IG Farben, the Bushes, Harrimans..etc) for unimaginable war profiteering gains.... and to create the State of Israel... (Balfour, British Mandate, Haavara emigration agreements, Rothschild funding of Jewish settlements in the 1890s...) Because I don't toe the official Hitler orthodoxy, I'm branded an anti-Semite, but that is, unfortunately, nothing I can remedy. The statement "All wars are bankers wars" best represent my beliefs.... Jews and philo-Semites have dominating banking since biblical times....and have profited greatly by financing both sides of conflicts...absolutely proven true....and just a small piece of evidence in a massive pile of such. These people are my enemies.... and anyone who ignores or obfuscates these facts. On Saturday, December 2, 2017 9:21 AM, Karen Aram >> wrote: Stephen, I’m sorry but you asked for it. Members of this community, not all AWARE members, have pointed out that you aren’t just anti-semitic due to a relative or someone being Jewish, but that you are a Neo Nazi. I apologize for the here-say as I know its irrelevant. You proven if not your Neo Nazi involvement, certainly your sentiments, not by just the crap you say, but by your postings in the past taken from Neo Nazi websites. Neo Nazi’s have never been known for their anti-war “stance” so I have to ask why are you on this Peace Discuss List if not to create chaos? Maybe you’re one of the local FBI contractors, you know, not professional, not paid but rewarded monetarily if you disrupt and destroy anti-war organizations and/or movements? On Dec 2, 2017, at 06:54, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss >> wrote: I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C49f87308730944e6df0208d53994a4f3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478232937453000&sdata=p9hp9TG8sgHarpzTmMdVj47IcQd9JXswTy6WSOO38MI%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30014 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 1717 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss ------------------------------ End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 ********************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28763 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.png Type: image/png Size: 4645 bytes Desc: image005.png URL: From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 17:07:13 2017 From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 17:07:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: References: <2077591471.352141.1512233586240@mail.yahoo.com> <85026042.360538.1512233955302@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1432633802.328464.1512234433351@mail.yahoo.com> thanks, good idea...I don't think many people are aware of this...including him... On Saturday, December 2, 2017 11:04 AM, "Boyle, Francis A" wrote: #yiv6477120616 #yiv6477120616 -- _filtered #yiv6477120616 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6477120616 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6477120616 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6477120616 {panose-1:2 11 10 4 2 1 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6477120616 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv6477120616 #yiv6477120616 p.yiv6477120616MsoNormal, #yiv6477120616 li.yiv6477120616MsoNormal, #yiv6477120616 div.yiv6477120616MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv6477120616 h2 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:18.0pt;}#yiv6477120616 a:link, #yiv6477120616 span.yiv6477120616MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6477120616 a:visited, #yiv6477120616 span.yiv6477120616MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6477120616 span.yiv6477120616Heading2Char {color:#2E74B5;}#yiv6477120616 p.yiv6477120616msonormal, #yiv6477120616 li.yiv6477120616msonormal, #yiv6477120616 div.yiv6477120616msonormal {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv6477120616 p.yiv6477120616msochpdefault, #yiv6477120616 li.yiv6477120616msochpdefault, #yiv6477120616 div.yiv6477120616msochpdefault {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv6477120616 span.yiv6477120616msohyperlink {}#yiv6477120616 span.yiv6477120616msohyperlinkfollowed {}#yiv6477120616 span.yiv6477120616heading2char {}#yiv6477120616 span.yiv6477120616emailstyle18 {}#yiv6477120616 p.yiv6477120616msonormal1, #yiv6477120616 li.yiv6477120616msonormal1, #yiv6477120616 div.yiv6477120616msonormal1 {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv6477120616 span.yiv6477120616msohyperlink1 {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6477120616 span.yiv6477120616msohyperlinkfollowed1 {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6477120616 span.yiv6477120616heading2char1 {color:#2E74B5;}#yiv6477120616 span.yiv6477120616emailstyle181 {color:#1F497D;font-weight:bold;}#yiv6477120616 p.yiv6477120616msochpdefault1, #yiv6477120616 li.yiv6477120616msochpdefault1, #yiv6477120616 div.yiv6477120616msochpdefault1 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv6477120616 span.yiv6477120616EmailStyle30 {color:#1F497D;font-weight:bold;}#yiv6477120616 .yiv6477120616MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv6477120616 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv6477120616 div.yiv6477120616WordSection1 {}#yiv6477120616 Ask Professor Falk. He is a leader of the Lawyers for 9/11 Truth Movement. Fab.   Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only)   From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:59 AM To: Boyle, Francis A ; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Cc: Stephen Francis Subject: Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34   I'm talking about a formal academic Review of Hulsey's work...if that's the correct way to phrase it?   On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:55 AM, "Boyle, Francis A" wrote:   There is a lot of literature out there you can read on this if you want to. Try David Ray Griffin with an Introduction by Professor Richard Falk. Fab.   Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only)   From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:53 AM To: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Boyle, Francis A Subject: Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34   Professor Boyle, Do you have any thoughts or inclination to review Professor Hulsey's work? "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017   | | | | | | |   | | | | | | "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... | | | |     On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:48 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" wrote:   Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to    peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net   To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit    https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to    peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net   You can reach the person managing the list at    peace-discuss-owner at lists.chambana.net   When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..."     Today's Topics:     1. Re: anti-Semitism (Boyle, Francis A)     ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Message: 1 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:48:29 +0000 From: "Boyle, Francis A" To: Stephen Francis , David Green     Cc: Peace-discuss List Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"   Well without going back to look anything up, and off the top of my head,  if I remember correctly from my World History Courses at the University of Chicago from the late, great William Hardy McNeill, monotheism first appeared in the Middle East in Egypt around the 18th Century B.C. under Pharaoh Amenhotep IV, who worshipped the Sun at the Only God and renamed himself Ikhnaton, Son of Aton, the Sun God. He then moved Egypt’s capital to Tel El Amarna from Memphis and set it up as a Holy City dedicated to the Worship of Aton, the Sun God. Fab. Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only)   From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:39 AM To: David Green ; Boyle, Francis A Cc: Peace-discuss List Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism   to Mr. Green... and Professor Boyle below....   Can you give me a credible reason to change my views on monotheism and the destruction of the Temples in this post of mine: I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience.   There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority.   I'm sure you would disagree with it, but it has a considerable presence on the internet....that is backed up plenty of credible evidence...     and, is there an academic (Francis Boyle?) on this site that will peer review Professor Hulsey's work on WTC 7 "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017             [cid:image001.jpg at 01D36B5B.12726840]     [Text Box:]     [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png]   "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present...           On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:21 AM, David Green > wrote:   Stephen, I would have more respect for you if you just attributed all of our earthly problems to space aliens.   On Saturday, December 2, 2017, 10:15:13 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote:     “It’s “class” stupid."   Class, capitalism, the elites. It’s not about race, nationality, or religion, it’s the elites supporting the “for profit system” of every government, nation. This is what needs to be acknowledged and remedied.     On Dec 2, 2017, at 07:41, Stephen Francis > wrote:   I'm unequivocally NOT a neo-Nazi.... my roots go back to 1969 as an Army in-uniform antiwar protester who was jailed for protesting the Vietnam War on Veterans Day of that year. I have thoroughly researched WWI and II and have come to the conclusion that Zionists and western Jewish banksters cooked up those wars and propped up Hitler (through IG Farben, the Bushes, Harrimans..etc) for unimaginable war profiteering gains.... and to create the State of Israel... (Balfour, British Mandate, Haavara emigration agreements, Rothschild funding of Jewish settlements in the 1890s...) Because I don't toe the official Hitler orthodoxy, I'm branded an anti-Semite, but that is, unfortunately, nothing I can remedy. The statement "All wars are bankers wars" best represent my beliefs.... Jews and philo-Semites have dominating banking since biblical times....and have profited greatly by financing both sides of conflicts...absolutely proven true....and just a small piece of evidence in a massive pile of such. These people are my enemies.... and anyone who ignores or obfuscates these facts.   On Saturday, December 2, 2017 9:21 AM, Karen Aram > wrote:   Stephen, I’m sorry but you asked for it.   Members of this community, not all AWARE members, have pointed out that you aren’t just anti-semitic due to a relative or someone being Jewish, but that you are a Neo Nazi. I apologize for the here-say as I know its irrelevant. You proven if not your Neo Nazi involvement, certainly your sentiments, not by just the crap you say, but by your postings in the past taken from Neo Nazi websites.   Neo Nazi’s have never been known for their anti-war “stance” so I have to ask why are you on this Peace Discuss List if not to create chaos?  Maybe you’re one of the local FBI contractors, you know, not professional, not paid but rewarded monetarily if you disrupt and destroy anti-war organizations and/or movements?   On Dec 2, 2017, at 06:54, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss > wrote:   I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience.   There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening.   _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C49f87308730944e6df0208d53994a4f3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478232937453000&sdata=p9hp9TG8sgHarpzTmMdVj47IcQd9JXswTy6WSOO38MI%3D&reserved=0       _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30014 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 1717 bytes Desc: image002.png URL:   ------------------------------   Subject: Digest Footer   _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss     ------------------------------   End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 **********************************************     -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28763 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.png Type: image/png Size: 4645 bytes Desc: not available URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Sat Dec 2 17:13:20 2017 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 11:13:20 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: References: <2077591471.352141.1512233586240@mail.yahoo.com> <85026042.360538.1512233955302@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Q: What would happen, were it proved conclusively that Bush, Cheney, and the Mossad organized the 9-11 attacks? A: Nothing. > On Dec 2, 2017, at 11:04 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Ask Professor Falk. He is a leader of the Lawyers for 9/11 Truth Movement. Fab. > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:59 AM > To: Boyle, Francis A ; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Cc: Stephen Francis > Subject: Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 > > I'm talking about a formal academic Review of Hulsey's work...if that's the correct way to phrase it? > > > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:55 AM, "Boyle, Francis A" wrote: > > > There is a lot of literature out there you can read on this if you want to. Try David Ray Griffin with an Introduction by Professor Richard Falk. Fab. > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:53 AM > To: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Boyle, Francis A > Subject: Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 > > Professor Boyle, > Do you have any thoughts or inclination to review Professor Hulsey's work? > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017 > > > > > > > > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... > On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... > > > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:48 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" wrote: > > Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > peace-discuss-owner at lists.chambana.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: anti-Semitism (Boyle, Francis A) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:48:29 +0000 > From: "Boyle, Francis A" > To: Stephen Francis , David Green > > Cc: Peace-discuss List > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Well without going back to look anything up, and off the top of my head, if I remember correctly from my World History Courses at the University of Chicago from the late, great William Hardy McNeill, monotheism first appeared in the Middle East in Egypt around the 18th Century B.C. under Pharaoh Amenhotep IV, who worshipped the Sun at the Only God and renamed himself Ikhnaton, Son of Aton, the Sun God. He then moved Egypt’s capital to Tel El Amarna from Memphis and set it up as a Holy City dedicated to the Worship of Aton, the Sun God. Fab. > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:39 AM > To: David Green ; Boyle, Francis A > Cc: Peace-discuss List > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism > > to Mr. Green... and Professor Boyle below.... > > Can you give me a credible reason to change my views on monotheism and the destruction of the Temples in this post of mine: > I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. > > There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. > As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. > This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. > > I'm sure you would disagree with it, but it has a considerable presence on the internet....that is backed up plenty of credible evidence... > > > and, is there an academic (Francis Boyle?) on this site that will peer review Professor Hulsey's work on WTC 7 > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017 > > > [cid:image001.jpg at 01D36B5B.12726840] > > > [Text Box:] > > > [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] > > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... > On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... > > > > > > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:21 AM, David Green > wrote: > > Stephen, I would have more respect for you if you just attributed all of our earthly problems to space aliens. > > On Saturday, December 2, 2017, 10:15:13 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > > “It’s “class” stupid." > > Class, capitalism, the elites. It’s not about race, nationality, or religion, it’s the elites supporting the “for profit system” of every government, nation. This is what needs to be acknowledged and remedied. > > > On Dec 2, 2017, at 07:41, Stephen Francis > wrote: > > I'm unequivocally NOT a neo-Nazi.... my roots go back to 1969 as an Army in-uniform antiwar protester who was jailed for protesting the Vietnam War on Veterans Day of that year. > I have thoroughly researched WWI and II and have come to the conclusion that Zionists and western Jewish banksters cooked up those wars and propped up Hitler (through IG Farben, the Bushes, Harrimans..etc) for unimaginable war profiteering gains.... and to create the State of Israel... (Balfour, British Mandate, Haavara emigration agreements, Rothschild funding of Jewish settlements in the 1890s...) > Because I don't toe the official Hitler orthodoxy, I'm branded an anti-Semite, but that is, unfortunately, nothing I can remedy. > The statement "All wars are bankers wars" best represent my beliefs.... Jews and philo-Semites have dominating banking since biblical times....and have profited greatly by financing both sides of conflicts...absolutely proven true....and just a small piece of evidence in a massive pile of such. > These people are my enemies.... and anyone who ignores or obfuscates these facts. > > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 9:21 AM, Karen Aram > wrote: > > Stephen, I’m sorry but you asked for it. > > Members of this community, not all AWARE members, have pointed out that you aren’t just anti-semitic due to a relative or someone being Jewish, but that you are a Neo Nazi. I apologize for the here-say as I know its irrelevant. You proven if not your Neo Nazi involvement, certainly your sentiments, not by just the crap you say, but by your postings in the past taken from Neo Nazi websites. > > Neo Nazi’s have never been known for their anti-war “stance” so I have to ask why are you on this Peace Discuss List if not to create chaos? Maybe you’re one of the local FBI contractors, you know, not professional, not paid but rewarded monetarily if you disrupt and destroy anti-war organizations and/or movements? > > On Dec 2, 2017, at 06:54, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. > > There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. > As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. > This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. > If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening. > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C49f87308730944e6df0208d53994a4f3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478232937453000&sdata=p9hp9TG8sgHarpzTmMdVj47IcQd9JXswTy6WSOO38MI%3D&reserved=0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: image001.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 30014 bytes > Desc: image001.jpg > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: image002.png > Type: image/png > Size: 1717 bytes > Desc: image002.png > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 > ********************************************** > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Dec 2 17:17:28 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 17:17:28 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: References: <2077591471.352141.1512233586240@mail.yahoo.com> <85026042.360538.1512233955302@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think you are correct on that conclusion Carl. We know for a fact that Roosevelt provoked Japan into attacking us at Pearl Harbor and knew they were going to strike Pearl Harbor. Nothing came of it. The Myths still prevail today. No accountability. So for that reason I leave 9/11 Truth to Professor Falk. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Carl G. Estabrook [mailto:galliher at illinois.edu] Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 11:13 AM To: Boyle, Francis A Cc: Stephen Francis ; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 Q: What would happen, were it proved conclusively that Bush, Cheney, and the Mossad organized the 9-11 attacks? A: Nothing. > On Dec 2, 2017, at 11:04 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Ask Professor Falk. He is a leader of the Lawyers for 9/11 Truth Movement. Fab. > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:59 AM > To: Boyle, Francis A ; > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Cc: Stephen Francis > Subject: Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 > > I'm talking about a formal academic Review of Hulsey's work...if that's the correct way to phrase it? > > > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:55 AM, "Boyle, Francis A" wrote: > > > There is a lot of literature out there you can read on this if you want to. Try David Ray Griffin with an Introduction by Professor Richard Falk. Fab. > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:53 AM > To: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Boyle, Francis A > > Subject: Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 > > Professor Boyle, > Do you have any thoughts or inclination to review Professor Hulsey's work? > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, > 2017 > > > > > > > > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... > On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... > > > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:48 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" wrote: > > Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > peace-discuss-owner at lists.chambana.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: anti-Semitism (Boyle, Francis A) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:48:29 +0000 > From: "Boyle, Francis A" > To: Stephen Francis , David Green > > Cc: Peace-discuss List > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Well without going back to look anything up, and off the top of my head, if I remember correctly from my World History Courses at the University of Chicago from the late, great William Hardy McNeill, monotheism first appeared in the Middle East in Egypt around the 18th Century B.C. under Pharaoh Amenhotep IV, who worshipped the Sun at the Only God and renamed himself Ikhnaton, Son of Aton, the Sun God. He then moved Egypt’s capital to Tel El Amarna from Memphis and set it up as a Holy City dedicated to the Worship of Aton, the Sun God. Fab. > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:39 AM > To: David Green ; Boyle, Francis A > > Cc: Peace-discuss List > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism > > to Mr. Green... and Professor Boyle below.... > > Can you give me a credible reason to change my views on monotheism and the destruction of the Temples in this post of mine: > I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. > > There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. > As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. > This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. > > I'm sure you would disagree with it, but it has a considerable presence on the internet....that is backed up plenty of credible evidence... > > > and, is there an academic (Francis Boyle?) on this site that will peer > review Professor Hulsey's work on WTC 7 "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from > Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, > 2017 > > > [cid:image001.jpg at 01D36B5B.12726840] > > > [Text Box:] > > > [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] > > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... > On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... > > > > > > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:21 AM, David Green > wrote: > > Stephen, I would have more respect for you if you just attributed all of our earthly problems to space aliens. > > On Saturday, December 2, 2017, 10:15:13 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > > “It’s “class” stupid." > > Class, capitalism, the elites. It’s not about race, nationality, or religion, it’s the elites supporting the “for profit system” of every government, nation. This is what needs to be acknowledged and remedied. > > > On Dec 2, 2017, at 07:41, Stephen Francis > wrote: > > I'm unequivocally NOT a neo-Nazi.... my roots go back to 1969 as an Army in-uniform antiwar protester who was jailed for protesting the Vietnam War on Veterans Day of that year. > I have thoroughly researched WWI and II and have come to the > conclusion that Zionists and western Jewish banksters cooked up those wars and propped up Hitler (through IG Farben, the Bushes, Harrimans..etc) for unimaginable war profiteering gains.... and to create the State of Israel... (Balfour, British Mandate, Haavara emigration agreements, Rothschild funding of Jewish settlements in the 1890s...) Because I don't toe the official Hitler orthodoxy, I'm branded an anti-Semite, but that is, unfortunately, nothing I can remedy. > The statement "All wars are bankers wars" best represent my beliefs.... Jews and philo-Semites have dominating banking since biblical times....and have profited greatly by financing both sides of conflicts...absolutely proven true....and just a small piece of evidence in a massive pile of such. > These people are my enemies.... and anyone who ignores or obfuscates these facts. > > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 9:21 AM, Karen Aram > wrote: > > Stephen, I’m sorry but you asked for it. > > Members of this community, not all AWARE members, have pointed out that you aren’t just anti-semitic due to a relative or someone being Jewish, but that you are a Neo Nazi. I apologize for the here-say as I know its irrelevant. You proven if not your Neo Nazi involvement, certainly your sentiments, not by just the crap you say, but by your postings in the past taken from Neo Nazi websites. > > Neo Nazi’s have never been known for their anti-war “stance” so I have to ask why are you on this Peace Discuss List if not to create chaos? Maybe you’re one of the local FBI contractors, you know, not professional, not paid but rewarded monetarily if you disrupt and destroy anti-war organizations and/or movements? > > On Dec 2, 2017, at 06:54, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. > > There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. > As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. > This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. > If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening. > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net et> > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist > s.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckar > enaram%40hotmail.com%7C49f87308730944e6df0208d53994a4f3%7C84df9e7fe9f6 > 40afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478232937453000&sdata=p9hp9TG8sgHarp > zTmMdVj47IcQd9JXswTy6WSOO38MI%3D&reserved=0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net et> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: > 2/0f7fdc7f/attachment.html> > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was > scrubbed... > Name: image001.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 30014 bytes > Desc: image001.jpg > URL: > 2/0f7fdc7f/attachment.jpg> > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was > scrubbed... > Name: image002.png > Type: image/png > Size: 1717 bytes > Desc: image002.png > URL: > 2/0f7fdc7f/attachment.png> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 > ********************************************** > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From kmedina67 at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 17:18:48 2017 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (kmedina67) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2017 11:18:48 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 Message-ID: <5a22e07d.87836b0a.e8f9d.990c@mx.google.com> Hi Carl, Was this to me or the other Karen? And the sentence didn't make sense.  If the question is, have I bought into the Russiagate, then the answer is no.  * The media has. Wow, they are very gullible. And that alarms me.  * If the Russiagate court begins to attack wikileaks, that will be one more nail in the coffin for real journalism.  * The United States has been interfering in other countries' elections and self-governance for many generations -- through all available methods -- and the US invented most of the methods. All that is abhorrent to me.  * if Russia has interfered, then how gullible are US voters if they are influenced by such transparent propaganda? Why aren't there more critical thinkers? Democracy depends on it. If we want to have a democracy, then fighting wars is not the answer, being active critical thinkers is the answer.  -Karen Medina -------- Original message -------- C G wrote: Karen, have you bought ‘Russiagate,' the political establishment’s attempt to distract people from the anti-war movement? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 17:24:54 2017 From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 17:24:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: References: <2077591471.352141.1512233586240@mail.yahoo.com> <85026042.360538.1512233955302@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1491341346.369790.1512235494918@mail.yahoo.com> That's conveniently borrowed Chomsky... predictable CGEHe has now a well-known reputation as a 9/11 Truth gatekeeper because of this meme.It's much like the accusation of anti-Semitism...designed to shut down dialog.Professor Hulsey's work has not gone unnoticed by the core of 9/11 researchers and is impeccable, unimpeachable and relevant. On Saturday, December 2, 2017 11:17 AM, "Boyle, Francis A" wrote: I think you are correct on that conclusion Carl. We know for a fact that Roosevelt provoked Japan into attacking us at Pearl Harbor and knew they were going to strike Pearl Harbor. Nothing came of it. The Myths still prevail today. No accountability. So for that reason I leave 9/11 Truth to Professor Falk. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Carl G. Estabrook [mailto:galliher at illinois.edu] Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 11:13 AM To: Boyle, Francis A Cc: Stephen Francis ; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 Q: What would happen, were it proved conclusively that Bush, Cheney, and the Mossad organized the 9-11 attacks? A: Nothing. > On Dec 2, 2017, at 11:04 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Ask Professor Falk. He is a leader of the Lawyers for 9/11 Truth Movement. Fab. >  > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) >  > From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:59 AM > To: Boyle, Francis A ; > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Cc: Stephen Francis > Subject: Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 >  > I'm talking about a formal academic Review of Hulsey's work...if that's the correct way to phrase it? >  > > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:55 AM, "Boyle, Francis A" wrote: >  > > There is a lot of literature out there you can read on this if you want to. Try David Ray Griffin with an Introduction by Professor Richard Falk. Fab. >  > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) >  > From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:53 AM > To: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Boyle, Francis A > > Subject: Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 >  > Professor Boyle, > Do you have any thoughts or inclination to review Professor Hulsey's work? > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, > 2017 > >  > >  > > > > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... > On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... >  >  > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:48 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" wrote: >  > Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to >    peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >  > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >    https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >    peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net >  > You can reach the person managing the list at >    peace-discuss-owner at lists.chambana.net >  > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..." >  >  > Today's Topics: >  >  1. Re: anti-Semitism (Boyle, Francis A) >  >  > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >  > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:48:29 +0000 > From: "Boyle, Francis A" > To: Stephen Francis , David Green >    > Cc: Peace-discuss List > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism > Message-ID: >    > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >  > Well without going back to look anything up, and off the top of my head,  if I remember correctly from my World History Courses at the University of Chicago from the late, great William Hardy McNeill, monotheism first appeared in the Middle East in Egypt around the 18th Century B.C. under Pharaoh Amenhotep IV, who worshipped the Sun at the Only God and renamed himself Ikhnaton, Son of Aton, the Sun God. He then moved Egypt’s capital to Tel El Amarna from Memphis and set it up as a Holy City dedicated to the Worship of Aton, the Sun God. Fab. > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) >  > From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:39 AM > To: David Green ; Boyle, Francis A > > Cc: Peace-discuss List > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism >  > to Mr. Green... and Professor Boyle below.... >  > Can you give me a credible reason to change my views on monotheism and the destruction of the Temples in this post of mine: > I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. >  > There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. > As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. > This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. >  > I'm sure you would disagree with it, but it has a considerable presence on the internet....that is backed up plenty of credible evidence... >  >  > and, is there an academic (Francis Boyle?) on this site that will peer > review Professor Hulsey's work on WTC 7 "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from > Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, > 2017 >  >  >        [cid:image001.jpg at 01D36B5B.12726840] >  >  > [Text Box:] >  >  > [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] >  > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... > On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... >  >  >  >  >  > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:21 AM, David Green > wrote: >  > Stephen, I would have more respect for you if you just attributed all of our earthly problems to space aliens. >  > On Saturday, December 2, 2017, 10:15:13 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >  >  > “It’s “class” stupid." >  > Class, capitalism, the elites. It’s not about race, nationality, or religion, it’s the elites supporting the “for profit system” of every government, nation. This is what needs to be acknowledged and remedied. >  >  > On Dec 2, 2017, at 07:41, Stephen Francis > wrote: >  > I'm unequivocally NOT a neo-Nazi.... my roots go back to 1969 as an Army in-uniform antiwar protester who was jailed for protesting the Vietnam War on Veterans Day of that year. > I have thoroughly researched WWI and II and have come to the > conclusion that Zionists and western Jewish banksters cooked up those wars and propped up Hitler (through IG Farben, the Bushes, Harrimans..etc) for unimaginable war profiteering gains.... and to create the State of Israel... (Balfour, British Mandate, Haavara emigration agreements, Rothschild funding of Jewish settlements in the 1890s...) Because I don't toe the official Hitler orthodoxy, I'm branded an anti-Semite, but that is, unfortunately, nothing I can remedy. > The statement "All wars are bankers wars" best represent my beliefs.... Jews and philo-Semites have dominating banking since biblical times....and have profited greatly by financing both sides of conflicts...absolutely proven true....and just a small piece of evidence in a massive pile of such. > These people are my enemies.... and anyone who ignores or obfuscates these facts. >  > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 9:21 AM, Karen Aram > wrote: >  > Stephen, I’m sorry but you asked for it. >  > Members of this community, not all AWARE members, have pointed out that you aren’t just anti-semitic due to a relative or someone being Jewish, but that you are a Neo Nazi. I apologize for the here-say as I know its irrelevant. You proven if not your Neo Nazi involvement, certainly your sentiments, not by just the crap you say, but by your postings in the past taken from Neo Nazi websites. >  > Neo Nazi’s have never been known for their anti-war “stance” so I have to ask why are you on this Peace Discuss List if not to create chaos?  Maybe you’re one of the local FBI contractors, you know, not professional, not paid but rewarded monetarily if you disrupt and destroy anti-war organizations and/or movements? >  > On Dec 2, 2017, at 06:54, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss > wrote: >  > I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. >  > There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. > As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. > This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. > If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening. >  > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net et> > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist > s.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckar > enaram%40hotmail.com%7C49f87308730944e6df0208d53994a4f3%7C84df9e7fe9f6 > 40afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478232937453000&sdata=p9hp9TG8sgHarp > zTmMdVj47IcQd9JXswTy6WSOO38MI%3D&reserved=0 >  >  >  > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net et> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >  > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: > 2/0f7fdc7f/attachment.html> > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was > scrubbed... > Name: image001.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 30014 bytes > Desc: image001.jpg > URL: > 2/0f7fdc7f/attachment.jpg> > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was > scrubbed... > Name: image002.png > Type: image/png > Size: 1717 bytes > Desc: image002.png > URL: > 2/0f7fdc7f/attachment.png> >  > ------------------------------ >  > Subject: Digest Footer >  > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >  >  > ------------------------------ >  > End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 > ********************************************** >  >  > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Dec 2 17:34:55 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 17:34:55 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: <1491341346.369790.1512235494918@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2077591471.352141.1512233586240@mail.yahoo.com> <85026042.360538.1512233955302@mail.yahoo.com> <1491341346.369790.1512235494918@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Excuse me, I did not borrow anything from Chomsky. I am giving you my reasoned opinion based upon the historical facts of Pearl Harbor. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 11:25 AM To: Boyle, Francis A ; Estabrook, Carl G Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 That's conveniently borrowed Chomsky... predictable CGE He has now a well-known reputation as a 9/11 Truth gatekeeper because of this meme. It's much like the accusation of anti-Semitism...designed to shut down dialog. Professor Hulsey's work has not gone unnoticed by the core of 9/11 researchers and is impeccable, unimpeachable and relevant. On Saturday, December 2, 2017 11:17 AM, "Boyle, Francis A" > wrote: I think you are correct on that conclusion Carl. We know for a fact that Roosevelt provoked Japan into attacking us at Pearl Harbor and knew they were going to strike Pearl Harbor. Nothing came of it. The Myths still prevail today. No accountability. So for that reason I leave 9/11 Truth to Professor Falk. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Carl G. Estabrook [mailto:galliher at illinois.edu] Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 11:13 AM To: Boyle, Francis A > Cc: Stephen Francis >; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 Q: What would happen, were it proved conclusively that Bush, Cheney, and the Mossad organized the 9-11 attacks? A: Nothing. > On Dec 2, 2017, at 11:04 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > Ask Professor Falk. He is a leader of the Lawyers for 9/11 Truth Movement. Fab. > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:59 AM > To: Boyle, Francis A >; > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Cc: Stephen Francis > > Subject: Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 > > I'm talking about a formal academic Review of Hulsey's work...if that's the correct way to phrase it? > > > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:55 AM, "Boyle, Francis A" > wrote: > > > There is a lot of literature out there you can read on this if you want to. Try David Ray Griffin with an Introduction by Professor Richard Falk. Fab. > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:53 AM > To: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Boyle, Francis A > > > Subject: Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 > > Professor Boyle, > Do you have any thoughts or inclination to review Professor Hulsey's work? > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, > 2017 > > > > > > > > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... > On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... > > > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:48 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" > wrote: > > Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > peace-discuss-owner at lists.chambana.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: anti-Semitism (Boyle, Francis A) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:48:29 +0000 > From: "Boyle, Francis A" > > To: Stephen Francis >, David Green > > > Cc: Peace-discuss List > > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Well without going back to look anything up, and off the top of my head, if I remember correctly from my World History Courses at the University of Chicago from the late, great William Hardy McNeill, monotheism first appeared in the Middle East in Egypt around the 18th Century B.C. under Pharaoh Amenhotep IV, who worshipped the Sun at the Only God and renamed himself Ikhnaton, Son of Aton, the Sun God. He then moved Egypt’s capital to Tel El Amarna from Memphis and set it up as a Holy City dedicated to the Worship of Aton, the Sun God. Fab. > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:39 AM > To: David Green >; Boyle, Francis A > > > Cc: Peace-discuss List > > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism > > to Mr. Green... and Professor Boyle below.... > > Can you give me a credible reason to change my views on monotheism and the destruction of the Temples in this post of mine: > I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. > > There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. > As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. > This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. > > I'm sure you would disagree with it, but it has a considerable presence on the internet....that is backed up plenty of credible evidence... > > > and, is there an academic (Francis Boyle?) on this site that will peer > review Professor Hulsey's work on WTC 7 "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from > Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, > 2017 > > > [cid:image001.jpg at 01D36B5B.12726840] > > > [Text Box:] > > > [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] > > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... > On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... > > > > > > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:21 AM, David Green >> wrote: > > Stephen, I would have more respect for you if you just attributed all of our earthly problems to space aliens. > > On Saturday, December 2, 2017, 10:15:13 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss >> wrote: > > > “It’s “class” stupid." > > Class, capitalism, the elites. It’s not about race, nationality, or religion, it’s the elites supporting the “for profit system” of every government, nation. This is what needs to be acknowledged and remedied. > > > On Dec 2, 2017, at 07:41, Stephen Francis >> wrote: > > I'm unequivocally NOT a neo-Nazi.... my roots go back to 1969 as an Army in-uniform antiwar protester who was jailed for protesting the Vietnam War on Veterans Day of that year. > I have thoroughly researched WWI and II and have come to the > conclusion that Zionists and western Jewish banksters cooked up those wars and propped up Hitler (through IG Farben, the Bushes, Harrimans..etc) for unimaginable war profiteering gains.... and to create the State of Israel... (Balfour, British Mandate, Haavara emigration agreements, Rothschild funding of Jewish settlements in the 1890s...) Because I don't toe the official Hitler orthodoxy, I'm branded an anti-Semite, but that is, unfortunately, nothing I can remedy. > The statement "All wars are bankers wars" best represent my beliefs.... Jews and philo-Semites have dominating banking since biblical times....and have profited greatly by financing both sides of conflicts...absolutely proven true....and just a small piece of evidence in a massive pile of such. > These people are my enemies.... and anyone who ignores or obfuscates these facts. > > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 9:21 AM, Karen Aram >> wrote: > > Stephen, I’m sorry but you asked for it. > > Members of this community, not all AWARE members, have pointed out that you aren’t just anti-semitic due to a relative or someone being Jewish, but that you are a Neo Nazi. I apologize for the here-say as I know its irrelevant. You proven if not your Neo Nazi involvement, certainly your sentiments, not by just the crap you say, but by your postings in the past taken from Neo Nazi websites. > > Neo Nazi’s have never been known for their anti-war “stance” so I have to ask why are you on this Peace Discuss List if not to create chaos? Maybe you’re one of the local FBI contractors, you know, not professional, not paid but rewarded monetarily if you disrupt and destroy anti-war organizations and/or movements? > > On Dec 2, 2017, at 06:54, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss >> wrote: > > I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. > > There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. > As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. > This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. > If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening. > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > et> > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist > s.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckar > enaram%40hotmail.com%7C49f87308730944e6df0208d53994a4f3%7C84df9e7fe9f6 > 40afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478232937453000&sdata=p9hp9TG8sgHarp > zTmMdVj47IcQd9JXswTy6WSOO38MI%3D&reserved=0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > et> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: > 2/0f7fdc7f/attachment.html> > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was > scrubbed... > Name: image001.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 30014 bytes > Desc: image001.jpg > URL: > 2/0f7fdc7f/attachment.jpg> > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was > scrubbed... > Name: image002.png > Type: image/png > Size: 1717 bytes > Desc: image002.png > URL: > 2/0f7fdc7f/attachment.png> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 > ********************************************** > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Dec 2 17:57:09 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 17:57:09 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: She Wolves in Sheep's Clothing at Illiniwaks Law School. Remember that not even one of them supported us in our protest against Killer Koh. QED. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:42 AM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: RE: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Wexler is a self-styled "Feminist" for Death and Destruction. Just like Robbenolt who invited Killer Koh out here. Just like fired and disgraced and sanctioned Dean Hurricane Heidi Hurd advocating torture. More Wolves in Sheep's Clothing at the Illiniwaks Law School. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:02 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Lesley Wexler is a Professor of Law at the University of Illinois College of Law. Professor Wexler writes, teaches and consults in the public international law fields, especially international humanitarian law, international disaster law, and human rights as well as in the anti-discrimination field more generally. The Illiniwaks College of Law's Resident Expert on how Israel can inflict war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians based upon her first-hand information and observation and exploration in situ. And also an "academic fellow" of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies that is now Campaigning heavily and full time to get Us Americans into a war of extermination against the Islamic Republic of Iran for the benefit of Israel. Such is the Illiniwaks Faculty at the Illiniwaks College of Law-Truly Orwellian! FAB WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH WE ALL LOVE BIG BROTHER REAGAN WAS PRESIDENT IN 1984 KILLER KOH WORKED FOR REAGAN IN 1984 Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 8:27 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh The Nazis Had Their Law Professors Too American Law Professors What have we become? American Law Professors for torture! American Law Professors for Gitmo Kangaroo Courts! American Law Professors for indefinite detention! American Law Professors for spying! American Law Professors for drone strikes! American Law Professors for murder! American Law Professors for assassinations! American Law Professors for war crimes! American Law Professors for crimes against humanity! American Law Professors for genocide! American Law Professors for wars of aggression! American Law Professors for murdering U.S. citizens! American Law Professors for murder courts! American Law Professors for trashing the U.S. Constitution! American Law Professors for trashing the Bill of Rights! American Law Professors for trashing International Law! American Law Professors for trashing Human Rights! How much lower can American Law Professors sink Into this criminal scheisse Of Nazi Legal Nihilism? The Nazis had their Law Professors too The worst of the bunch was Carl Schmitt Now we have: American Law Professors For Carl Schmitt! Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh Now at Berkeley Law too With Chaired John Yoo1 Killer Koh's poo Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:00 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} "Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us {Americans} into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Women! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Kids! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! UI Law Profs Say! How many People! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:34 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ 1 One of President Bushie Jr's most notorious torture lawyers and war criminals and a student of Harold Killer Koh at Yale Law School. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Dec 2 17:57:09 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 17:57:09 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: She Wolves in Sheep's Clothing at Illiniwaks Law School. Remember that not even one of them supported us in our protest against Killer Koh. QED. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:42 AM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: RE: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Wexler is a self-styled "Feminist" for Death and Destruction. Just like Robbenolt who invited Killer Koh out here. Just like fired and disgraced and sanctioned Dean Hurricane Heidi Hurd advocating torture. More Wolves in Sheep's Clothing at the Illiniwaks Law School. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:02 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Lesley Wexler is a Professor of Law at the University of Illinois College of Law. Professor Wexler writes, teaches and consults in the public international law fields, especially international humanitarian law, international disaster law, and human rights as well as in the anti-discrimination field more generally. The Illiniwaks College of Law's Resident Expert on how Israel can inflict war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians based upon her first-hand information and observation and exploration in situ. And also an "academic fellow" of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies that is now Campaigning heavily and full time to get Us Americans into a war of extermination against the Islamic Republic of Iran for the benefit of Israel. Such is the Illiniwaks Faculty at the Illiniwaks College of Law-Truly Orwellian! FAB WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH WE ALL LOVE BIG BROTHER REAGAN WAS PRESIDENT IN 1984 KILLER KOH WORKED FOR REAGAN IN 1984 Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 8:27 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh The Nazis Had Their Law Professors Too American Law Professors What have we become? American Law Professors for torture! American Law Professors for Gitmo Kangaroo Courts! American Law Professors for indefinite detention! American Law Professors for spying! American Law Professors for drone strikes! American Law Professors for murder! American Law Professors for assassinations! American Law Professors for war crimes! American Law Professors for crimes against humanity! American Law Professors for genocide! American Law Professors for wars of aggression! American Law Professors for murdering U.S. citizens! American Law Professors for murder courts! American Law Professors for trashing the U.S. Constitution! American Law Professors for trashing the Bill of Rights! American Law Professors for trashing International Law! American Law Professors for trashing Human Rights! How much lower can American Law Professors sink Into this criminal scheisse Of Nazi Legal Nihilism? The Nazis had their Law Professors too The worst of the bunch was Carl Schmitt Now we have: American Law Professors For Carl Schmitt! Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh Now at Berkeley Law too With Chaired John Yoo1 Killer Koh's poo Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:00 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} "Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us {Americans} into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Women! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Kids! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! UI Law Profs Say! How many People! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:34 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ 1 One of President Bushie Jr's most notorious torture lawyers and war criminals and a student of Harold Killer Koh at Yale Law School. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 18:04:44 2017 From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 18:04:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 42 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1822307369.369437.1512237884859@mail.yahoo.com> Of course, Roosevelt led the provocation of Japan to attack Pearl Harbor, and Woodrow Wilson was tricked into the US entry into WWI, the Lousitania was carrying munitions, .... the Gulf of Tonkin resolution has been thoroughly debunked as false...with 57,000 dead Americans as a consequence ... and USS Liberty, King David Hotel, the Lavon Affair, 9/11, Syrian chemical weapon attacks by Asad, Khadfi false accusations, Bill Clinton supplied weapons to terrorists in the Bosnian wars, ISIS is a Saudi/US/Israel/British construct...Israel targeted children in Operation Protective edge, and now Russiagate, the list is obscene. On Saturday, December 2, 2017 11:25 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" wrote: Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to     peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net You can reach the person managing the list at     peace-discuss-owner at lists.chambana.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Re: [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday  12/2       (kmedina67)   2. Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 (Stephen Francis) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2017 11:18:48 -0600 From: kmedina67 To: C G Estabrook Cc: Peace-discuss List Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration,     Saturday  12/2 Message-ID: <5a22e07d.87836b0a.e8f9d.990c at mx.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi Carl, Was this to me or the other Karen? And the sentence didn't make sense.  If the question is, have I bought into the Russiagate, then the answer is no.  * The media has. Wow, they are very gullible. And that alarms me.  * If the Russiagate court begins to attack wikileaks, that will be one more nail in the coffin for real journalism.  * The United States has been interfering in other countries' elections and self-governance for many generations -- through all available methods -- and the US invented most of the methods. All that is abhorrent to me.  * if Russia has interfered, then how gullible are US voters if they are influenced by such transparent propaganda? Why aren't there more critical thinkers? Democracy depends on it. If we want to have a democracy, then fighting wars is not the answer, being active critical thinkers is the answer.  -Karen Medina -------- Original message -------- C G wrote: Karen, have you bought ‘Russiagate,' the political establishment’s attempt to distract people from the anti-war movement? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 17:24:54 +0000 (UTC) From: Stephen Francis To: "Boyle, Francis A" ,  "Estabrook, Carl G"     Cc: "peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net"     Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 Message-ID: <1491341346.369790.1512235494918 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" That's conveniently borrowed Chomsky... predictable CGEHe has now a well-known reputation as a 9/11 Truth gatekeeper because of this meme.It's much like the accusation of anti-Semitism...designed to shut down dialog.Professor Hulsey's work has not gone unnoticed by the core of 9/11 researchers and is impeccable, unimpeachable and relevant.     On Saturday, December 2, 2017 11:17 AM, "Boyle, Francis A" wrote: I think you are correct on that conclusion Carl. We know for a fact that Roosevelt provoked Japan into attacking us at Pearl Harbor and knew they were going to strike Pearl Harbor. Nothing came of it. The Myths still prevail today. No accountability. So for that reason I leave 9/11 Truth to Professor Falk. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Carl G. Estabrook [mailto:galliher at illinois.edu] Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 11:13 AM To: Boyle, Francis A Cc: Stephen Francis ; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 Q: What would happen, were it proved conclusively that Bush, Cheney, and the Mossad organized the 9-11 attacks? A: Nothing. > On Dec 2, 2017, at 11:04 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Ask Professor Falk. He is a leader of the Lawyers for 9/11 Truth Movement. Fab. >  > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) >  > From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:59 AM > To: Boyle, Francis A ; > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Cc: Stephen Francis > Subject: Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 >  > I'm talking about a formal academic Review of Hulsey's work...if that's the correct way to phrase it? >  > > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:55 AM, "Boyle, Francis A" wrote: >  > > There is a lot of literature out there you can read on this if you want to. Try David Ray Griffin with an Introduction by Professor Richard Falk. Fab. >  > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) >  > From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:53 AM > To: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Boyle, Francis A > > Subject: Re: Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 >  > Professor Boyle, > Do you have any thoughts or inclination to review Professor Hulsey's work? > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, > 2017 > >  > >  > > > > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... > On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... >  >  > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:48 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" wrote: >  > Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to >    peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >  > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >    https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >    peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net >  > You can reach the person managing the list at >    peace-discuss-owner at lists.chambana.net >  > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..." >  >  > Today's Topics: >  >  1. Re: anti-Semitism (Boyle, Francis A) >  >  > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >  > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:48:29 +0000 > From: "Boyle, Francis A" > To: Stephen Francis , David Green >    > Cc: Peace-discuss List > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism > Message-ID: >    > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >  > Well without going back to look anything up, and off the top of my head,  if I remember correctly from my World History Courses at the University of Chicago from the late, great William Hardy McNeill, monotheism first appeared in the Middle East in Egypt around the 18th Century B.C. under Pharaoh Amenhotep IV, who worshipped the Sun at the Only God and renamed himself Ikhnaton, Son of Aton, the Sun God. He then moved Egypt’s capital to Tel El Amarna from Memphis and set it up as a Holy City dedicated to the Worship of Aton, the Sun God. Fab. > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) >  > From: Stephen Francis [mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:39 AM > To: David Green ; Boyle, Francis A > > Cc: Peace-discuss List > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism >  > to Mr. Green... and Professor Boyle below.... >  > Can you give me a credible reason to change my views on monotheism and the destruction of the Temples in this post of mine: > I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. >  > There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. > As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. > This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. >  > I'm sure you would disagree with it, but it has a considerable presence on the internet....that is backed up plenty of credible evidence... >  >  > and, is there an academic (Francis Boyle?) on this site that will peer > review Professor Hulsey's work on WTC 7 "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from > Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, > 2017 >  >  >        [cid:image001.jpg at 01D36B5B.12726840] >  >  > [Text Box:] >  >  > [https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png] >  > "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept.... > On September 6, 2017, from the University of Alaska Fairbanks' Schaibel Auditorium, Dr. Leroy Hulsey present... >  >  >  >  >  > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 10:21 AM, David Green > wrote: >  > Stephen, I would have more respect for you if you just attributed all of our earthly problems to space aliens. >  > On Saturday, December 2, 2017, 10:15:13 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >  >  > “It’s “class” stupid." >  > Class, capitalism, the elites. It’s not about race, nationality, or religion, it’s the elites supporting the “for profit system” of every government, nation. This is what needs to be acknowledged and remedied. >  >  > On Dec 2, 2017, at 07:41, Stephen Francis > wrote: >  > I'm unequivocally NOT a neo-Nazi.... my roots go back to 1969 as an Army in-uniform antiwar protester who was jailed for protesting the Vietnam War on Veterans Day of that year. > I have thoroughly researched WWI and II and have come to the > conclusion that Zionists and western Jewish banksters cooked up those wars and propped up Hitler (through IG Farben, the Bushes, Harrimans..etc) for unimaginable war profiteering gains.... and to create the State of Israel... (Balfour, British Mandate, Haavara emigration agreements, Rothschild funding of Jewish settlements in the 1890s...) Because I don't toe the official Hitler orthodoxy, I'm branded an anti-Semite, but that is, unfortunately, nothing I can remedy. > The statement "All wars are bankers wars" best represent my beliefs.... Jews and philo-Semites have dominating banking since biblical times....and have profited greatly by financing both sides of conflicts...absolutely proven true....and just a small piece of evidence in a massive pile of such. > These people are my enemies.... and anyone who ignores or obfuscates these facts. >  > On Saturday, December 2, 2017 9:21 AM, Karen Aram > wrote: >  > Stephen, I’m sorry but you asked for it. >  > Members of this community, not all AWARE members, have pointed out that you aren’t just anti-semitic due to a relative or someone being Jewish, but that you are a Neo Nazi. I apologize for the here-say as I know its irrelevant. You proven if not your Neo Nazi involvement, certainly your sentiments, not by just the crap you say, but by your postings in the past taken from Neo Nazi websites. >  > Neo Nazi’s have never been known for their anti-war “stance” so I have to ask why are you on this Peace Discuss List if not to create chaos?  Maybe you’re one of the local FBI contractors, you know, not professional, not paid but rewarded monetarily if you disrupt and destroy anti-war organizations and/or movements? >  > On Dec 2, 2017, at 06:54, Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss > wrote: >  > I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. >  > There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. > As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. > This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. > If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening. >  > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net et> > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist > s.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckar > enaram%40hotmail.com%7C49f87308730944e6df0208d53994a4f3%7C84df9e7fe9f6 > 40afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478232937453000&sdata=p9hp9TG8sgHarp > zTmMdVj47IcQd9JXswTy6WSOO38MI%3D&reserved=0 >  >  >  > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net et> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >  > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: > 2/0f7fdc7f/attachment.html> > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was > scrubbed... > Name: image001.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 30014 bytes > Desc: image001.jpg > URL: > 2/0f7fdc7f/attachment.jpg> > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was > scrubbed... > Name: image002.png > Type: image/png > Size: 1717 bytes > Desc: image002.png > URL: > 2/0f7fdc7f/attachment.png> >  > ------------------------------ >  > Subject: Digest Footer >  > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >  >  > ------------------------------ >  > End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 34 > ********************************************** >  >  > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss ------------------------------ End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 42 ********************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 2 18:28:45 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 18:28:45 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 In-Reply-To: <5a22e07d.87836b0a.e8f9d.990c@mx.google.com> References: <5a22e07d.87836b0a.e8f9d.990c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Carl’s message was meant for you. He is well aware, I haven’t bought into Russiagate. On Dec 2, 2017, at 09:18, kmedina67 via Peace-discuss > wrote: Hi Carl, Was this to me or the other Karen? And the sentence didn't make sense. If the question is, have I bought into the Russiagate, then the answer is no. * The media has. Wow, they are very gullible. And that alarms me. * If the Russiagate court begins to attack wikileaks, that will be one more nail in the coffin for real journalism. * The United States has been interfering in other countries' elections and self-governance for many generations -- through all available methods -- and the US invented most of the methods. All that is abhorrent to me. * if Russia has interfered, then how gullible are US voters if they are influenced by such transparent propaganda? Why aren't there more critical thinkers? Democracy depends on it. If we want to have a democracy, then fighting wars is not the answer, being active critical thinkers is the answer. -Karen Medina -------- Original message -------- C G wrote: Karen, have you bought ‘Russiagate,' the political establishment’s attempt to distract people from the anti-war movement? _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cb7503a8914594c63bcb808d539a8cfc1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478319553158191&sdata=tXfXU0PWw5Sw0X12Ckxv2mUdiuGgeKPDG99OZOJOSEw%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 2 19:03:14 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 19:03:14 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Ajamu Barack Black Alliance for Peace Message-ID: We're creating a public education program... Help us raise $120,000! [The Black Alliance for Peace] * Home * About Us * Press * Events * Take Action * Join BAP * Newsletter * Donate * Contact Us [Beyond-Vietnam2.jpg] A PEOPLE(S)-CENTERED HUMAN RIGHTS PROJECT AGAINST WAR, REPRESSION AND IMPERIALISM DONATE [AP_249065993900meme.jpg] Mission: The Black Alliance for Peace (BAP) seeks to recapture and redevelop the historic anti-war, anti-imperialist, and pro-peace positions of the radical black movement. Through educational activities, organizing and movement support, organizations and individuals in the Alliance will work to oppose both militarized domestic state repression, and the policies of de-stabilization, subversion and permanent war agenda of the U.S. state globally. “Increasingly, by choice or by accident, this is the role our nation has taken, the role of those who make peaceful revolution impossible by refusing to give up the privileges and the pleasures that come from the immense profits of overseas investments. I am convinced that if we are to get on the right side of the world revolution, we as a nation must undergo a radical revolution of values. We must rapidly begin...we must rapidly begin the shift from a thing-oriented society to a person-oriented society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights, are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, extreme materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered.” (Dr. King, Beyond Vietnam – A Time to Break Silence) “The interlinked systems of white supremacy, imperialism, capitalism and patriarchy shape the violence we face. As oppressed people living in the US, the belly of global empire, we are in a critical position to build the necessary connections for a global liberation movement. Until we are able to overturn US imperialism, capitalism and white supremacy, our brothers and sisters around the world will continue to live in chains. Our struggle is strengthened by our connections to the resistance of peoples around the world fighting for their liberation. The Black radical tradition has always been rooted in igniting connection across the global south under the recognition that our liberation is intrinsically tied to the liberation of Black and Brown people around the world.” (Movement for Black Lives Platform) As descendants of Africa, still recalling the sting of the driver's lash borne by our foremothers and forefathers, the kidnapping, the trade, we are the casualties of imperialist wars and domestic terrorism. The Black radical voice must ground itself in the movement to end wars across the globe and boldly speak out against repression and the rise of fascism in all its many forms. -Jaribu Hill, Mississippi Workers Center for Human Rights and member of BAP Coordinating Committee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Dec 2 22:23:20 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 22:23:20 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Message-ID: "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} For the self-styled "feminist" She Wolves on the Illiniwaks Law Faculty, the Blood of Muslim Women of Color means nothing to them. Ditto for Their Children. Ditto for Their Husbands. RIP.Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:42 AM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: RE: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Wexler is a self-styled "Feminist" for Death and Destruction. Just like Robbenolt who invited Killer Koh out here. Just like fired and disgraced and sanctioned Dean Hurricane Heidi Hurd advocating torture. More Wolves in Sheep's Clothing at the Illiniwaks Law School. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:02 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Lesley Wexler is a Professor of Law at the University of Illinois College of Law. Professor Wexler writes, teaches and consults in the public international law fields, especially international humanitarian law, international disaster law, and human rights as well as in the anti-discrimination field more generally. The Illiniwaks College of Law's Resident Expert on how Israel can inflict war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians based upon her first-hand information and observation and exploration in situ. And also an "academic fellow" of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies that is now Campaigning heavily and full time to get Us Americans into a war of extermination against the Islamic Republic of Iran for the benefit of Israel. Such is the Illiniwaks Faculty at the Illiniwaks College of Law-Truly Orwellian! FAB WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH WE ALL LOVE BIG BROTHER REAGAN WAS PRESIDENT IN 1984 KILLER KOH WORKED FOR REAGAN IN 1984 Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 8:27 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh The Nazis Had Their Law Professors Too American Law Professors What have we become? American Law Professors for torture! American Law Professors for Gitmo Kangaroo Courts! American Law Professors for indefinite detention! American Law Professors for spying! American Law Professors for drone strikes! American Law Professors for murder! American Law Professors for assassinations! American Law Professors for war crimes! American Law Professors for crimes against humanity! American Law Professors for genocide! American Law Professors for wars of aggression! American Law Professors for murdering U.S. citizens! American Law Professors for murder courts! American Law Professors for trashing the U.S. Constitution! American Law Professors for trashing the Bill of Rights! American Law Professors for trashing International Law! American Law Professors for trashing Human Rights! How much lower can American Law Professors sink Into this criminal scheisse Of Nazi Legal Nihilism? The Nazis had their Law Professors too The worst of the bunch was Carl Schmitt Now we have: American Law Professors For Carl Schmitt! Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh Now at Berkeley Law too With Chaired John Yoo1 Killer Koh's poo Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:00 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} "Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us {Americans} into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Women! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Kids! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! UI Law Profs Say! How many People! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:34 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ 1 One of President Bushie Jr's most notorious torture lawyers and war criminals and a student of Harold Killer Koh at Yale Law School. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Dec 2 22:23:20 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 22:23:20 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Message-ID: "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} For the self-styled "feminist" She Wolves on the Illiniwaks Law Faculty, the Blood of Muslim Women of Color means nothing to them. Ditto for Their Children. Ditto for Their Husbands. RIP.Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:42 AM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: RE: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Wexler is a self-styled "Feminist" for Death and Destruction. Just like Robbenolt who invited Killer Koh out here. Just like fired and disgraced and sanctioned Dean Hurricane Heidi Hurd advocating torture. More Wolves in Sheep's Clothing at the Illiniwaks Law School. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:02 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Lesley Wexler is a Professor of Law at the University of Illinois College of Law. Professor Wexler writes, teaches and consults in the public international law fields, especially international humanitarian law, international disaster law, and human rights as well as in the anti-discrimination field more generally. The Illiniwaks College of Law's Resident Expert on how Israel can inflict war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians based upon her first-hand information and observation and exploration in situ. And also an "academic fellow" of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies that is now Campaigning heavily and full time to get Us Americans into a war of extermination against the Islamic Republic of Iran for the benefit of Israel. Such is the Illiniwaks Faculty at the Illiniwaks College of Law-Truly Orwellian! FAB WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH WE ALL LOVE BIG BROTHER REAGAN WAS PRESIDENT IN 1984 KILLER KOH WORKED FOR REAGAN IN 1984 Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 8:27 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh The Nazis Had Their Law Professors Too American Law Professors What have we become? American Law Professors for torture! American Law Professors for Gitmo Kangaroo Courts! American Law Professors for indefinite detention! American Law Professors for spying! American Law Professors for drone strikes! American Law Professors for murder! American Law Professors for assassinations! American Law Professors for war crimes! American Law Professors for crimes against humanity! American Law Professors for genocide! American Law Professors for wars of aggression! American Law Professors for murdering U.S. citizens! American Law Professors for murder courts! American Law Professors for trashing the U.S. Constitution! American Law Professors for trashing the Bill of Rights! American Law Professors for trashing International Law! American Law Professors for trashing Human Rights! How much lower can American Law Professors sink Into this criminal scheisse Of Nazi Legal Nihilism? The Nazis had their Law Professors too The worst of the bunch was Carl Schmitt Now we have: American Law Professors For Carl Schmitt! Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh Now at Berkeley Law too With Chaired John Yoo1 Killer Koh's poo Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:00 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} "Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us {Americans} into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Women! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Kids! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! UI Law Profs Say! How many People! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:34 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ 1 One of President Bushie Jr's most notorious torture lawyers and war criminals and a student of Harold Killer Koh at Yale Law School. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 2 23:08:41 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 23:08:41 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: October 2017 Harper's article: Crime and Punishment References: <160186a6824-1b47-1f52@webjas-vaa178.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: From: Mildred O'brien via Peace-discuss > To: peace-discuss > Sent: Wed, Sep 20, 2017 7:48 am Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: October 2017 Harper's article: Crime and Punishment The following article in Harper's Magazine on the status of In Re Terrorist Attacks on September 11, 2001 grew out of a suit filed in 2002 on behalf of family members and other victims of the attacks: https://harpers.org/arch/2017/crime-and-punishment/4 The October 2017 Harper's article "Will the 9/11 Case Finally Go to Trial?, by Andrew Cockburn reported that Sharron Premoli, a 9/11 survivor injured in the North Tower and one of the 6500 plaintiffs against Saudi Arabia, said. "We started a war because of 9/11--more than one war--and the wars are still going on. Every war we start now, we say it's because of 9/11. They keep fighting the 'war on terror,' but we are giving the Saudis a pass, despite all the evidence." Cockburn says there has always been evidence--in abundance. The Joint Inquiry into Intelligence Community Activities Before and After the Terrorist Attack began work in February 2002 under the leadership of former Senator Bob Graham, Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee at the time, who has been active even since he retired from the Senate in 2005. With low oil revenues and the effect on Saudi Aramco stock prices, the war in Yemen dragging on at a cost of $200 million a day, the Sauds are afraid of a default judgment against them and some of their assets will be seized, curtailing their bellicose plans, said Premoli. "That is precisely the goal," she said. As the suit drags on into some 12 years, the Saudi expenditure on lobbyists and attorneys in Washington mounts, adding to the expense into a possible hundreds of billions. The lawyers for the plaintiffs are committed in spite of obstacles put in their way by the Bush and Obama administrations and FBI and CIA. Back in 2002 Senator Bob Graham himself was already coming to the conclusion that the 9/11 attacks must have had an elaborate support network, abroad and in the U.S.A. As he later wrote, "I believed almost intuitively that the terrorists who pulled off the attacks could not have been the work of a stand-alone terrorist cell. In reality, the Obama Administration was well aware that Saudi Arabia was a supporter of terrorism, though it kept the information to itself. Only through WikiLeaks did we learn of Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's classified cable, circulated to department officials in December 2009 stating as fact that "donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide." On this side of the Middle East, the CIA and FBI were complicit in not revealing what they knew about the 9/11 attackers.. A successful conclusion of the lawsuit for the plaintiffs could strike a more powerful blow for peace and withdrawal of Saudi support for Middle East wars than organized protests against Saudi Arabia!. The entire article at Harpers.org is worth a read. Midge O'Brien -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 2 23:13:44 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 23:13:44 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Ajamu Barak, and why I support the Green Party. He isn't afraid to discuss "war" taboo for Democrats and some "Socialist Party's" Message-ID: [X] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sun Dec 3 00:18:40 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 00:18:40 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Message-ID: "And those who have chosen the portion of injustice, and tyranny and violence shall pass into wolves or into hawks and kites-whither else shall we suppose them to go?" ---Socrates Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 4:23 PM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} For the self-styled "feminist" She Wolves on the Illiniwaks Law Faculty, the Blood of Muslim Women of Color means nothing to them. Ditto for Their Children. Ditto for Their Husbands. RIP.Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:42 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Wexler is a self-styled "Feminist" for Death and Destruction. Just like Robbenolt who invited Killer Koh out here. Just like fired and disgraced and sanctioned Dean Hurricane Heidi Hurd advocating torture. More Wolves in Sheep's Clothing at the Illiniwaks Law School. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:02 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Lesley Wexler is a Professor of Law at the University of Illinois College of Law. Professor Wexler writes, teaches and consults in the public international law fields, especially international humanitarian law, international disaster law, and human rights as well as in the anti-discrimination field more generally. The Illiniwaks College of Law's Resident Expert on how Israel can inflict war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians based upon her first-hand information and observation and exploration in situ. And also an "academic fellow" of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies that is now Campaigning heavily and full time to get Us Americans into a war of extermination against the Islamic Republic of Iran for the benefit of Israel. Such is the Illiniwaks Faculty at the Illiniwaks College of Law-Truly Orwellian! FAB WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH WE ALL LOVE BIG BROTHER REAGAN WAS PRESIDENT IN 1984 KILLER KOH WORKED FOR REAGAN IN 1984 Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 8:27 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh The Nazis Had Their Law Professors Too American Law Professors What have we become? American Law Professors for torture! American Law Professors for Gitmo Kangaroo Courts! American Law Professors for indefinite detention! American Law Professors for spying! American Law Professors for drone strikes! American Law Professors for murder! American Law Professors for assassinations! American Law Professors for war crimes! American Law Professors for crimes against humanity! American Law Professors for genocide! American Law Professors for wars of aggression! American Law Professors for murdering U.S. citizens! American Law Professors for murder courts! American Law Professors for trashing the U.S. Constitution! American Law Professors for trashing the Bill of Rights! American Law Professors for trashing International Law! American Law Professors for trashing Human Rights! How much lower can American Law Professors sink Into this criminal scheisse Of Nazi Legal Nihilism? The Nazis had their Law Professors too The worst of the bunch was Carl Schmitt Now we have: American Law Professors For Carl Schmitt! Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh Now at Berkeley Law too With Chaired John Yoo1 Killer Koh's poo Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:00 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} "Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us {Americans} into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Women! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Kids! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! UI Law Profs Say! How many People! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:34 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ 1 One of President Bushie Jr's most notorious torture lawyers and war criminals and a student of Harold Killer Koh at Yale Law School. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sun Dec 3 00:18:40 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 00:18:40 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Message-ID: "And those who have chosen the portion of injustice, and tyranny and violence shall pass into wolves or into hawks and kites-whither else shall we suppose them to go?" ---Socrates Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 4:23 PM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} For the self-styled "feminist" She Wolves on the Illiniwaks Law Faculty, the Blood of Muslim Women of Color means nothing to them. Ditto for Their Children. Ditto for Their Husbands. RIP.Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:42 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Wexler is a self-styled "Feminist" for Death and Destruction. Just like Robbenolt who invited Killer Koh out here. Just like fired and disgraced and sanctioned Dean Hurricane Heidi Hurd advocating torture. More Wolves in Sheep's Clothing at the Illiniwaks Law School. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:02 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Lesley Wexler is a Professor of Law at the University of Illinois College of Law. Professor Wexler writes, teaches and consults in the public international law fields, especially international humanitarian law, international disaster law, and human rights as well as in the anti-discrimination field more generally. The Illiniwaks College of Law's Resident Expert on how Israel can inflict war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians based upon her first-hand information and observation and exploration in situ. And also an "academic fellow" of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies that is now Campaigning heavily and full time to get Us Americans into a war of extermination against the Islamic Republic of Iran for the benefit of Israel. Such is the Illiniwaks Faculty at the Illiniwaks College of Law-Truly Orwellian! FAB WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH WE ALL LOVE BIG BROTHER REAGAN WAS PRESIDENT IN 1984 KILLER KOH WORKED FOR REAGAN IN 1984 Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 8:27 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh The Nazis Had Their Law Professors Too American Law Professors What have we become? American Law Professors for torture! American Law Professors for Gitmo Kangaroo Courts! American Law Professors for indefinite detention! American Law Professors for spying! American Law Professors for drone strikes! American Law Professors for murder! American Law Professors for assassinations! American Law Professors for war crimes! American Law Professors for crimes against humanity! American Law Professors for genocide! American Law Professors for wars of aggression! American Law Professors for murdering U.S. citizens! American Law Professors for murder courts! American Law Professors for trashing the U.S. Constitution! American Law Professors for trashing the Bill of Rights! American Law Professors for trashing International Law! American Law Professors for trashing Human Rights! How much lower can American Law Professors sink Into this criminal scheisse Of Nazi Legal Nihilism? The Nazis had their Law Professors too The worst of the bunch was Carl Schmitt Now we have: American Law Professors For Carl Schmitt! Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh Now at Berkeley Law too With Chaired John Yoo1 Killer Koh's poo Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:00 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} "Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us {Americans} into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Women! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Kids! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! UI Law Profs Say! How many People! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:34 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ 1 One of President Bushie Jr's most notorious torture lawyers and war criminals and a student of Harold Killer Koh at Yale Law School. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sun Dec 3 02:08:56 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 02:08:56 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] 9/11 Highjackers trial/ Andrew Cockburn interview by Amy Goodman on Democracy Now. 9/17 Message-ID: Independent Global NewsAboutDaily DigestEventsStationsEspañol * Daily Shows [Chevron down] * Top Stories [Chevron down] * Web Exclusives [Chevron down] * Topics * Columns [Search] DONATE HOT TOPICS * North Korea * Sexual Assault * Native American * Yemen * Immigration * Drug War * Donald Trump * Puerto Rico * Climate Change * Mass Shootings “Will the 9/11 Case Finally Go to Trial?”: Andrew Cockburn on New Evidence Linking Saudis to Attacks STORYSEPTEMBER 13, 2017 [Watch icon]Watch Full Show Listen Media Options 3,933 Shares This is viewer supported news. Please do your part today. DONATE TOPICS * Saudi Arabia * War on Terror * 9/11 * 9/11 anniversary ________________________________ GUESTS * Andrew Cockburn Washington editor for Harper’smagazine. His latest piece for Harper’sis headlined “Crime and Punishment: Will the 9/11 case finally go to trial?” He is the author of Kill Chain: The Rise of the High-Tech Assassins. ________________________________ LINKS * "Crime and Punishment: Will the 9/11 case finally go to trial?" As the nation marks the 16th anniversary of the September 11 attacks, questions still swirl about the role of Saudi Arabia in the attacks. The 9/11 attack was carried out by 19 hijackers, 15 of whom were from Saudi Arabia. Sixteen years after the attacks, 9/11 families and survivors are continuing their efforts to take Saudi Arabia to trial. Just this week, the New York Post reported new evidence presented in the case alleging the Saudi Embassy in Washington, D.C., funded a “dry run” of 9/11 two years before the attacks. The families’ lawyers say the new allegations offer “a pattern of both financial and operational support” by the Saudi government. We speak with Andrew Cockburn, whose latest piece is headlined “Crime and Punishment: Will the 9/11 case finally go to trial?” ________________________________ Transcript This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form. AMY GOODMAN: As the nation marks the 16th anniversary this week of the September 11th attacks on the World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon, questions still swirl about the role of Saudi Arabia. The 9/11 attacks were carried out by 19 hijackers. Fifteen of them were from Saudi Arabia. Sixteen years later, 9/11 families and survivors are continuing their efforts to take Saudi Arabia to trial. Just this week, the New York Post reported new evidence presented in the case alleging the Saudi Embassy in Washington, D.C., paid for two Saudi nationals who were living in the U.S. undercover to fly from Phoenix to Washington, D.C., quote, “in a dry run for the 9/11 attacks,” unquote. The families’ lawyers say the new allegations offer, quote, “a pattern of both financial and operational support” by the Saudi government. We go now to Washington, D.C., where we’re joined by Andrew Cockburn. His latest piece in Harper’s is headlined “Crime and Punishment: Will the 9/11 case finally go to trial?” Welcome, Andrew. Can you please lay out that case? ANDREW COCKBURN: Well, the case, it’s a consolidation of various lawsuits that were brought in almost immediately after the attacks. And it alleges that the hijackers received material support and backing, and both financial and organizational, from agents of the Saudi government, acting in their capacity as agents of the Saudi government, and therefore, that the Saudi government is itself liable for the attacks on 9/11. AMY GOODMAN: And talk about who the plaintiffs are. ANDREW COCKBURN: Well, they’re a whole bunch of people, 6,500, roughly, in all. They are the, first of all, bereaved families, widows, parents, children, orphaned or not orphaned, but bereaved families, whose husbands, sons, mothers were killed in the attacks. Also includes survivors, people who were—you know, who were in the attacks but managed to at least escape with their lives, even if they were injured. And it also includes insurance companies, who had to pay out millions and billions of dollars in claims, but are now seeking to get some of that money back from the people they allege actually caused the attacks. AMY GOODMAN: Andrew, last year, I interviewed former Senator Bob Graham, the former chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, co-chair of the joint congressional inquiry into the 9/11 terrorist attacks. This is what he said. BOB GRAHAM: Immediately after 9/11, the government began to look for suspects who had helped these hijackers, and they focused on Iraq. They even had a concocted story that a representative of Saddam Hussein had met with al-Qaeda operatives in Prague, in the Czech Republic. That turned out to be false. My feeling is that what happened is they wanted to go to war with Iraq, had wanted to, particularly people like Cheney and Rumsfeld, and it was embarrassing to find out that the information that was becoming available seemed to more point to Saudi Arabia as having been the country that aided the 9/11, rather than Iraq. And so, the response to that is, let’s suppress the information about Saudi Arabia’s involvement, so that we don’t confuse the people in the Congress as we push hard to get authorization for war in Iraq. AMY GOODMAN: That’s the former U.S. Senator Bob Graham. Talk more about what he’s saying, Andrew Cockburn. ANDREW COCKBURN: Well, that’s right. I mean, in a way, there’s one thing that the Bush administration and Senator Graham agreed on, which was that the—for the hijacking, for the 9/11 operation to succeed, they had to have had the support of—the structured support of a nation-state, I mean, the elaborate—in terms of money, in terms of contacts, in terms of—you know, these were a bunch of, basically, sort of hicks, who—most of them, who arrived in this country, didn’t speak English, didn’t know people. And they were all taken care of and found places to live and given money and, you know, steered to flying lessons. You know, it was a very sophisticated or well-organized operation. And that had to have been—in Graham’s view, and, it seems, in mine, too, had to have been done by a state. Now, the Bush administration tried to say it was Iraq. In fact, they so wanted it to be Iraq, or wanted people to believe it was Iraq, that prisoners—interrogators at Guantánamo were under instructions to torture detainees in Guantánamo into admitting, falsely, this link between Iraq and the 9/11 hijackings. AMY GOODMAN: So, why was Iraq the focus after—I mean, if you polled most people in the United States, they would not know that 15 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. Why was it in the interest, do you believe, of the state to do this? ANDREW COCKBURN: Well, first of all, the relationship with Saudi Arabia is so sacrosanct in the eyes of the—if you want to call it, the sort of ruling apparatus in this country. And it runs very, very deep. You know, there’s all sorts of aspects to it—most vividly, obviously, the huge financial benefits that flow at least to the U.S. defense industry, the U.S. military-industrial complex, in terms of arms contracts, consultancy contracts for retired general officers. You know, there’s just a very close sort of symbiotic relationship between the two. The whole relationship of the oil companies to Saudi Arabia, you know, things that you wouldn’t think of. For example, every American—I’ve been informed that every time an American military flight flies over Saudi Arabia, which they really have to do to get to the big bases in the Gulf, they have to ask permission from the Saudis, which the Saudis, just to jerk our chain, occasionally refuse. There were subsidies on the price of oil for a long time. There was allegedly support in the worldwide network of mosques. So, you know, this was the idea that we would—even though they had just attacked us, that we would sort of suddenly turn on the Saudis, I think, just couldn’t—didn’t compute. AMY GOODMAN: Can you— ANDREW COCKBURN: Go on. AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about Michael Jacobson, who he was and what he uncovered, Andrew? ANDREW COCKBURN: He’s absolutely key. Let me say, Jacobson was an investigator on the Senate, the intelligence—the joint inquiry by the House and Senate Intelligence Committees, which was chaired by Bob Graham, that was set up right after the attacks. Jacobson was an investigator in that. And really early on, he noticed an odd discrepancy, an odd mention in FBI files here in Washington, that seemed to say—that said that one of the hijackers had been in contact with an FBIinformant. And he thought, “This is quite interesting.” And he wanted—he put in to go to San Diego. This is a hijacker, sorry, I should say, who had been living in San Diego. He pushed to go to San Diego to look into the files in the local FBI office. Interestingly, the then-head of the FBI, Mr. Mueller, Robert Mueller, now investigating the Trump—allegations about Donald Trump, pushed—moved heaven and earth to stop Jacobson going to San Diego. Nevertheless, the committee insisted he do so. And he went there and found most of what we know about the Saudi connection. He found that in the files they had—there was plenty of information about a Saudi agent, Mr. al-Bayoumi, who everyone in the FBI, certainly, out there believed was a Saudi agent, who had been in close contact with the hijackers, who had found them a place to live in San Diego, had opened a bank account for them, had helped them—well, introduced them to people who helped them get flying lessons, helped them to get driver’s licenses—had basically been their case officer, it seemed. This was all turned up in—I mean, I could go on. You know, there’s other people. There were checks that went from the Saudi Embassy in Washington that went, more or less—I mean, indirectly, but in a pretty straightforward procedure—to the hijacker, or to Mr. Bayoumi, for looking after the hijackers. Mr. Bayoumi himself worked for a company owned by the Saudi Ministry of Defense, but never showed up to work. AMY GOODMAN: Andrew, we just have 20 seconds, but the subtitle of your piece, “Will the 9/11 case finally go to trial?” Will it? ANDREW COCKBURN: Yes. I mean, despite the best efforts of the U.S. government and court system. It’s moving remorselessly toward that. We’ve had the complaint. We’ve had the motion to dismiss, that will be answered. Looks like sometime next year we’ll actually get an actual trial going. And the Saudis, I might say, are freaked out about this. They’re making every effort to derail this thing, to try and get the law changed so that they can’t be sued. AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to have to leave it there, but we will continue to follow it. Andrew Cockburn, Washington editor for Harper’s magazine. We’ll link to your piece, “Crime and Punishment.” And that does it for today’s broadcast. My co-host Juan González’s continuing speaking tour, you can check our website at Democracy Now! He’ll be in Tempe on Thursday, and Austin, as well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rwhelbig at gmail.com Sun Dec 3 03:09:09 2017 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 19:09:09 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Correction - one of the four 9/11 Pilots was Saudi Arabian Message-ID: He probably would not have been there had he found employment after he first passed his flight training https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hani_Hanjour Roger From karenaram at hotmail.com Sun Dec 3 03:22:00 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 03:22:00 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Correction - one of the four 9/11 Pilots was Saudi Arabian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Roger 15 of the 19 highjackers were Saudi’s. > On Dec 2, 2017, at 19:09, Roger Helbig via Peace-discuss wrote: > > He probably would not have been there had he found employment after he > first passed his flight training > > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FHani_Hanjour&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Ce018178b7a9f4d72fe3c08d539fb46fc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478673737666034&sdata=xSBxq8qUIouF%2F9zuNJAs%2Fdtokns7Wo%2BnD7itRx5P8S4%3D&reserved=0 > > Roger > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Ce018178b7a9f4d72fe3c08d539fb46fc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478673737666034&sdata=M%2B4sNWyOukDzGokNMkmJIizXHN5CALEyRSGu4YRq9mA%3D&reserved=0 From fboyle at illinois.edu Sun Dec 3 12:43:13 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:43:13 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mise En Scene for "Feminists" of Illiniwaks Law Faculty After Killer Koh: Doctor: What is it she does now? Look how she rubs her hands. Gentlewoman: It is an accustom'd action with her, to seem thus washing her hands. I have known her continue in this a quarter of an hour. Lady Macbeth: Yet here's a spot. Doctor: Hark, she speaks. I will set down what comes from her, to satisfy my remembrance the more strongly. Lady Macbeth: Out, damn'd spot! out, I say!-One; two: why, then 'tis time to do't.-Hell is murky.-Fie, my lord, fie, a soldier, and afeard? What need we fear who knows it, when none can call our pow'r to accompt?-Yet who would have thought the old man to have had so much blood in him? Macbeth Act 5, scene 1, 26- Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 6:19 PM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: RE: Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "And those who have chosen the portion of injustice, and tyranny and violence shall pass into wolves or into hawks and kites-whither else shall we suppose them to go?" ---Socrates Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 4:23 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} For the self-styled "feminist" She Wolves on the Illiniwaks Law Faculty, the Blood of Muslim Women of Color means nothing to them. Ditto for Their Children. Ditto for Their Husbands. RIP.Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:42 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Wexler is a self-styled "Feminist" for Death and Destruction. Just like Robbenolt who invited Killer Koh out here. Just like fired and disgraced and sanctioned Dean Hurricane Heidi Hurd advocating torture. More Wolves in Sheep's Clothing at the Illiniwaks Law School. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:02 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Lesley Wexler is a Professor of Law at the University of Illinois College of Law. Professor Wexler writes, teaches and consults in the public international law fields, especially international humanitarian law, international disaster law, and human rights as well as in the anti-discrimination field more generally. The Illiniwaks College of Law's Resident Expert on how Israel can inflict war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians based upon her first-hand information and observation and exploration in situ. And also an "academic fellow" of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies that is now Campaigning heavily and full time to get Us Americans into a war of extermination against the Islamic Republic of Iran for the benefit of Israel. Such is the Illiniwaks Faculty at the Illiniwaks College of Law-Truly Orwellian! FAB WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH WE ALL LOVE BIG BROTHER REAGAN WAS PRESIDENT IN 1984 KILLER KOH WORKED FOR REAGAN IN 1984 Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 8:27 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh The Nazis Had Their Law Professors Too American Law Professors What have we become? American Law Professors for torture! American Law Professors for Gitmo Kangaroo Courts! American Law Professors for indefinite detention! American Law Professors for spying! American Law Professors for drone strikes! American Law Professors for murder! American Law Professors for assassinations! American Law Professors for war crimes! American Law Professors for crimes against humanity! American Law Professors for genocide! American Law Professors for wars of aggression! American Law Professors for murdering U.S. citizens! American Law Professors for murder courts! American Law Professors for trashing the U.S. Constitution! American Law Professors for trashing the Bill of Rights! American Law Professors for trashing International Law! American Law Professors for trashing Human Rights! How much lower can American Law Professors sink Into this criminal scheisse Of Nazi Legal Nihilism? The Nazis had their Law Professors too The worst of the bunch was Carl Schmitt Now we have: American Law Professors For Carl Schmitt! Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh Now at Berkeley Law too With Chaired John Yoo1 Killer Koh's poo Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:00 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} "Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us {Americans} into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Women! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Kids! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! UI Law Profs Say! How many People! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:34 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ 1 One of President Bushie Jr's most notorious torture lawyers and war criminals and a student of Harold Killer Koh at Yale Law School. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sun Dec 3 12:43:13 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:43:13 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mise En Scene for "Feminists" of Illiniwaks Law Faculty After Killer Koh: Doctor: What is it she does now? Look how she rubs her hands. Gentlewoman: It is an accustom'd action with her, to seem thus washing her hands. I have known her continue in this a quarter of an hour. Lady Macbeth: Yet here's a spot. Doctor: Hark, she speaks. I will set down what comes from her, to satisfy my remembrance the more strongly. Lady Macbeth: Out, damn'd spot! out, I say!-One; two: why, then 'tis time to do't.-Hell is murky.-Fie, my lord, fie, a soldier, and afeard? What need we fear who knows it, when none can call our pow'r to accompt?-Yet who would have thought the old man to have had so much blood in him? Macbeth Act 5, scene 1, 26- Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 6:19 PM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: RE: Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "And those who have chosen the portion of injustice, and tyranny and violence shall pass into wolves or into hawks and kites-whither else shall we suppose them to go?" ---Socrates Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 4:23 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} For the self-styled "feminist" She Wolves on the Illiniwaks Law Faculty, the Blood of Muslim Women of Color means nothing to them. Ditto for Their Children. Ditto for Their Husbands. RIP.Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:42 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Wexler is a self-styled "Feminist" for Death and Destruction. Just like Robbenolt who invited Killer Koh out here. Just like fired and disgraced and sanctioned Dean Hurricane Heidi Hurd advocating torture. More Wolves in Sheep's Clothing at the Illiniwaks Law School. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:02 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Lesley Wexler is a Professor of Law at the University of Illinois College of Law. Professor Wexler writes, teaches and consults in the public international law fields, especially international humanitarian law, international disaster law, and human rights as well as in the anti-discrimination field more generally. The Illiniwaks College of Law's Resident Expert on how Israel can inflict war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians based upon her first-hand information and observation and exploration in situ. And also an "academic fellow" of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies that is now Campaigning heavily and full time to get Us Americans into a war of extermination against the Islamic Republic of Iran for the benefit of Israel. Such is the Illiniwaks Faculty at the Illiniwaks College of Law-Truly Orwellian! FAB WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH WE ALL LOVE BIG BROTHER REAGAN WAS PRESIDENT IN 1984 KILLER KOH WORKED FOR REAGAN IN 1984 Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 8:27 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh The Nazis Had Their Law Professors Too American Law Professors What have we become? American Law Professors for torture! American Law Professors for Gitmo Kangaroo Courts! American Law Professors for indefinite detention! American Law Professors for spying! American Law Professors for drone strikes! American Law Professors for murder! American Law Professors for assassinations! American Law Professors for war crimes! American Law Professors for crimes against humanity! American Law Professors for genocide! American Law Professors for wars of aggression! American Law Professors for murdering U.S. citizens! American Law Professors for murder courts! American Law Professors for trashing the U.S. Constitution! American Law Professors for trashing the Bill of Rights! American Law Professors for trashing International Law! American Law Professors for trashing Human Rights! How much lower can American Law Professors sink Into this criminal scheisse Of Nazi Legal Nihilism? The Nazis had their Law Professors too The worst of the bunch was Carl Schmitt Now we have: American Law Professors For Carl Schmitt! Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh Now at Berkeley Law too With Chaired John Yoo1 Killer Koh's poo Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:00 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} "Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us {Americans} into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Women! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Kids! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! UI Law Profs Say! How many People! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:34 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ 1 One of President Bushie Jr's most notorious torture lawyers and war criminals and a student of Harold Killer Koh at Yale Law School. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sun Dec 3 13:36:59 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 13:36:59 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And speaking of the Chief She Wolf on the Illiniwaks Law Faculty, our Fired, Disgraced and ABA Sanctioned Dean Hurricane Heidi Hurd, after all those years advocating torture of Muslims/Arabs/Asians of Color with her Consort Michael Moore of the CIA/Mossad, the Marquis de Sade Professor of Law and Philosophy and at the Center for Advanced Studies in Torture and Drone Strikes, is now trying to re-brand herself as a Tree-Hugger-Ms. Environmentalist. Lady MacBeth Hurd is now trying to Greenwash all that Muslim Blood off of her hands. Fab. Doctor: What is it she does now? Look how she rubs her hands. Gentlewoman: It is an accustom'd action with her, to seem thus washing her hands. I have known her continue in this a quarter of an hour. Lady Macbeth: Yet here's a spot. Doctor: Hark, she speaks. I will set down what comes from her, to satisfy my remembrance the more strongly. Lady Macbeth: Out, damn'd spot! out, I say!-One; two: why, then 'tis time to do't.-Hell is murky.-Fie, my lord, fie, a soldier, and afeard? What need we fear who knows it, when none can call our pow'r to accompt?-Yet who would have thought the old man to have had so much blood in him? Macbeth Act 5, scene 1, 26- Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 6:43 AM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: RE: Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Mise En Scene for "Feminists" of Illiniwaks Law Faculty After Killer Koh: Doctor: What is it she does now? Look how she rubs her hands. Gentlewoman: It is an accustom'd action with her, to seem thus washing her hands. I have known her continue in this a quarter of an hour. Lady Macbeth: Yet here's a spot. Doctor: Hark, she speaks. I will set down what comes from her, to satisfy my remembrance the more strongly. Lady Macbeth: Out, damn'd spot! out, I say!-One; two: why, then 'tis time to do't.-Hell is murky.-Fie, my lord, fie, a soldier, and afeard? What need we fear who knows it, when none can call our pow'r to accompt?-Yet who would have thought the old man to have had so much blood in him? Macbeth Act 5, scene 1, 26- Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 6:19 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "And those who have chosen the portion of injustice, and tyranny and violence shall pass into wolves or into hawks and kites-whither else shall we suppose them to go?" ---Socrates Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 4:23 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} For the self-styled "feminist" She Wolves on the Illiniwaks Law Faculty, the Blood of Muslim Women of Color means nothing to them. Ditto for Their Children. Ditto for Their Husbands. RIP.Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:42 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Wexler is a self-styled "Feminist" for Death and Destruction. Just like Robbenolt who invited Killer Koh out here. Just like fired and disgraced and sanctioned Dean Hurricane Heidi Hurd advocating torture. More Wolves in Sheep's Clothing at the Illiniwaks Law School. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:02 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Lesley Wexler is a Professor of Law at the University of Illinois College of Law. Professor Wexler writes, teaches and consults in the public international law fields, especially international humanitarian law, international disaster law, and human rights as well as in the anti-discrimination field more generally. The Illiniwaks College of Law's Resident Expert on how Israel can inflict war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians based upon her first-hand information and observation and exploration in situ. And also an "academic fellow" of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies that is now Campaigning heavily and full time to get Us Americans into a war of extermination against the Islamic Republic of Iran for the benefit of Israel. Such is the Illiniwaks Faculty at the Illiniwaks College of Law-Truly Orwellian! FAB WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH WE ALL LOVE BIG BROTHER REAGAN WAS PRESIDENT IN 1984 KILLER KOH WORKED FOR REAGAN IN 1984 Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 8:27 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh The Nazis Had Their Law Professors Too American Law Professors What have we become? American Law Professors for torture! American Law Professors for Gitmo Kangaroo Courts! American Law Professors for indefinite detention! American Law Professors for spying! American Law Professors for drone strikes! American Law Professors for murder! American Law Professors for assassinations! American Law Professors for war crimes! American Law Professors for crimes against humanity! American Law Professors for genocide! American Law Professors for wars of aggression! American Law Professors for murdering U.S. citizens! American Law Professors for murder courts! American Law Professors for trashing the U.S. Constitution! American Law Professors for trashing the Bill of Rights! American Law Professors for trashing International Law! American Law Professors for trashing Human Rights! How much lower can American Law Professors sink Into this criminal scheisse Of Nazi Legal Nihilism? The Nazis had their Law Professors too The worst of the bunch was Carl Schmitt Now we have: American Law Professors For Carl Schmitt! Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh Now at Berkeley Law too With Chaired John Yoo1 Killer Koh's poo Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:00 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} "Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us {Americans} into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Women! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Kids! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! UI Law Profs Say! How many People! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:34 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ 1 One of President Bushie Jr's most notorious torture lawyers and war criminals and a student of Harold Killer Koh at Yale Law School. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sun Dec 3 13:36:59 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 13:36:59 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And speaking of the Chief She Wolf on the Illiniwaks Law Faculty, our Fired, Disgraced and ABA Sanctioned Dean Hurricane Heidi Hurd, after all those years advocating torture of Muslims/Arabs/Asians of Color with her Consort Michael Moore of the CIA/Mossad, the Marquis de Sade Professor of Law and Philosophy and at the Center for Advanced Studies in Torture and Drone Strikes, is now trying to re-brand herself as a Tree-Hugger-Ms. Environmentalist. Lady MacBeth Hurd is now trying to Greenwash all that Muslim Blood off of her hands. Fab. Doctor: What is it she does now? Look how she rubs her hands. Gentlewoman: It is an accustom'd action with her, to seem thus washing her hands. I have known her continue in this a quarter of an hour. Lady Macbeth: Yet here's a spot. Doctor: Hark, she speaks. I will set down what comes from her, to satisfy my remembrance the more strongly. Lady Macbeth: Out, damn'd spot! out, I say!-One; two: why, then 'tis time to do't.-Hell is murky.-Fie, my lord, fie, a soldier, and afeard? What need we fear who knows it, when none can call our pow'r to accompt?-Yet who would have thought the old man to have had so much blood in him? Macbeth Act 5, scene 1, 26- Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 6:43 AM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: RE: Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Mise En Scene for "Feminists" of Illiniwaks Law Faculty After Killer Koh: Doctor: What is it she does now? Look how she rubs her hands. Gentlewoman: It is an accustom'd action with her, to seem thus washing her hands. I have known her continue in this a quarter of an hour. Lady Macbeth: Yet here's a spot. Doctor: Hark, she speaks. I will set down what comes from her, to satisfy my remembrance the more strongly. Lady Macbeth: Out, damn'd spot! out, I say!-One; two: why, then 'tis time to do't.-Hell is murky.-Fie, my lord, fie, a soldier, and afeard? What need we fear who knows it, when none can call our pow'r to accompt?-Yet who would have thought the old man to have had so much blood in him? Macbeth Act 5, scene 1, 26- Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 6:19 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "And those who have chosen the portion of injustice, and tyranny and violence shall pass into wolves or into hawks and kites-whither else shall we suppose them to go?" ---Socrates Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 4:23 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: Illiniwaks Law Faculty She Wolves:: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} For the self-styled "feminist" She Wolves on the Illiniwaks Law Faculty, the Blood of Muslim Women of Color means nothing to them. Ditto for Their Children. Ditto for Their Husbands. RIP.Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:42 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Wexler is a self-styled "Feminist" for Death and Destruction. Just like Robbenolt who invited Killer Koh out here. Just like fired and disgraced and sanctioned Dean Hurricane Heidi Hurd advocating torture. More Wolves in Sheep's Clothing at the Illiniwaks Law School. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:02 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: TRULY ORWELLIAN!: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Lesley Wexler is a Professor of Law at the University of Illinois College of Law. Professor Wexler writes, teaches and consults in the public international law fields, especially international humanitarian law, international disaster law, and human rights as well as in the anti-discrimination field more generally. The Illiniwaks College of Law's Resident Expert on how Israel can inflict war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians based upon her first-hand information and observation and exploration in situ. And also an "academic fellow" of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies that is now Campaigning heavily and full time to get Us Americans into a war of extermination against the Islamic Republic of Iran for the benefit of Israel. Such is the Illiniwaks Faculty at the Illiniwaks College of Law-Truly Orwellian! FAB WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH WE ALL LOVE BIG BROTHER REAGAN WAS PRESIDENT IN 1984 KILLER KOH WORKED FOR REAGAN IN 1984 Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 8:27 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh The Nazis Had Their Law Professors Too American Law Professors What have we become? American Law Professors for torture! American Law Professors for Gitmo Kangaroo Courts! American Law Professors for indefinite detention! American Law Professors for spying! American Law Professors for drone strikes! American Law Professors for murder! American Law Professors for assassinations! American Law Professors for war crimes! American Law Professors for crimes against humanity! American Law Professors for genocide! American Law Professors for wars of aggression! American Law Professors for murdering U.S. citizens! American Law Professors for murder courts! American Law Professors for trashing the U.S. Constitution! American Law Professors for trashing the Bill of Rights! American Law Professors for trashing International Law! American Law Professors for trashing Human Rights! How much lower can American Law Professors sink Into this criminal scheisse Of Nazi Legal Nihilism? The Nazis had their Law Professors too The worst of the bunch was Carl Schmitt Now we have: American Law Professors For Carl Schmitt! Arabs and Muslims Have become American Law Professors' New Jews Their untermensh Now at Berkeley Law too With Chaired John Yoo1 Killer Koh's poo Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:00 PM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: IRAN-NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} "Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us {Americans} into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel." Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Women! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Kids! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Hey! Hey! UI Law Profs Say! How many People! Will you kill next day! In Iran! Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:34 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: RE: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} And notice of course that the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Persians/Asians of Color at the College of Law bragged about and touted Wexler's complicity with Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide against the Palestinians. QED. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:04 AM To: 'David Green' >; Miller, Joseph Thomas >; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' >; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' >; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' >; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' >; 'Joe Lauria' >; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' >; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' >; Szoke, Ron >; 'Arlene Hickory' >; 'Karen Aram' >; 'abass10 at gmail.com' >; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' >; 'Lina Thorne' >; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' >; 'Jay' >; 'David Johnson' >; 'Mildred O'brien' >; 'C G Estabrook' > Subject: NG: UILAWPROF Wexler Complicit in Israeli War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity & Genocide against Palestinians. "...particularly to the drone assassinations, "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times" - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children." Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Today's News Gazette has a front page story where UILawProf Wexler is pontificating about sexual harassment. Really? Notice below. Wexler had the UILawSchool brag about the fact that she is an "Academic Fellow" of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As most of us know, the so-called Foundation is a Gang of Die-hard NeoCon Zionist Warmongers, Bigots and Racists against Palestinians/Arabs/Persians/Asians/Muslims of Color. Right now the Foundation is warmongering to get us into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel. Notice Wexler brags about the fact that she spent ten days "exploring" how Israel inflicts war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians, including and especially Palestinian Women and Children. And Wexler calls this to be an "honor". Basically Wexler is complicit in Israel's war crimes, crimes against humanity and outright genocide against the Palestinians. Article III (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention explicitly criminalizes "Complicity in genocide." And Wexler is typical of the die-hard bigots, racists and warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color on the College of Law Faculty who brought out Killer Koh here to give his specially endowed lecture on being a Role Model in Excellence for Lawyers in Government Service. Not one member of the UI Law Faculty Gang of Die-hard Bigots, Racists and Warmongers against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians/Asians of Color supported us in our Protest against Killer Koh. Q.E.D. fab Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many women! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler say! How many kids! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Hey! Hey! Wexler Say! How many Dads! Did you kill today! In Palestine! Professor Wexler Selected as Academic Fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies Friday, March 09, 2012 Lesley Wexler, the Thomas M. Mengler Faculty Scholar, has been selected as an academic fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. As part of the honor, Professor Wexler will be participating in a 10-day program in Israel with other leading U.S. academics exploring how the country combats terrorism. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ ________________________________ 1 One of President Bushie Jr's most notorious torture lawyers and war criminals and a student of Harold Killer Koh at Yale Law School. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sun Dec 3 15:11:19 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 15:11:19 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: [New post] Zimbabwe, Thailand, Egypt & Portugal: No such thing as a coup for democracy References: <61854989.2004.0@wordpress.com> Message-ID: From: Uglytruth-Thailand > Subject: [New post] Zimbabwe, Thailand, Egypt & Portugal: No such thing as a coup for democracy Date: December 3, 2017 at 00:10:41 PST New post on Uglytruth-Thailand [http://s0.wp.com/i/emails/blavatar.png] [http://2.gravatar.com/avatar/b94c98491e599510a5ec039e64af3261?s=50&d=identicon&r=G] Zimbabwe, Thailand, Egypt & Portugal: No such thing as a coup for democracy by uglytruththailand Giles Ji Ungpakorn The lessons from the military intervention in politics in Thailand are highly relevant to what is going on in Zimbabwe today, despite some of the differences. Over the last few weeks and days we have seen jubilant crowds in Harare celebrating the military coup which overthrew the dictator Mugabe. In Thailand in 2006 and 2014 we saw middle-class crowds urging the military to overthrow governments controlled by Taksin Shinawat. Despite the fact that these middle-class crowds were dominated by reactionary elements, who felt that democracy was not suitable for Thailand, there were many deluded fools, especially among the NGOs, who welcomed the intervention of the army to overthrow what they considered a “parliamentary dictatorship”. Of course Taksin abused human rights, but the governments which were controlled by him were not dictatorships. However, the point I wish to discuss is the belief among many people that a military coup can somehow bring about freedom and democracy. [https://uglytruththailand.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/royalists.jpg?w=300] Now the crowds celebrating in Harare were not mainly deluded fools. There was genuine elation at the overthrowing of a brutal dictator. Some, however, were indeed deluded fools believing that Mugabe’s former “enforcer” Mnangagwa was somehow a democrat and because he was a businessman he would restore the economy. Businessmen restore economies on their own class terms, on the backs of the working class and the poor. The common idea held by those who believe that military coups can bring about democracy is the feeling that ordinary people, especially workers, can never change society and bring about freedom and democracy. That is why NGO types suspend their intellect and cheer the military. They believe that ordinary poor people need to be “helped” and can never act collectively to change society. [https://uglytruththailand.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/mmantidemos-afp_.jpg?w=300] A similar event to Zimbabwe and Thailand took place in Egypt. There were mass protests when the elected President Mohamed Morsi started to betray the revolution. A majority among the crowds were under the illusion that the Egyptian military were the friends of the people. Only the radical Left warned that the military could not be trusted. Events showed that the military encouraged these protests and then hijacked them in order to come to power and roll back the revolution. In Zimbabwe a significant number of people celebrating in Harare, had deep reservations about the military and Mnangagwa. The make up of the "new" military-civilian government shows they were right. The radical Left is encouraging workers and students to organise independently in order to bring about real change. The working class of Zimbabwe is capable of this if there is strong enough political organisation. Workers in neighbouring South Africa also have significant power and could provide solidarity. But it is the events in Portugal in 1975 which show the importance of working class self-organisation following a military coup. Chris Harman’s wonderful book “The Fire Last Time: 1968 and after” makes the point clearly. [https://uglytruththailand.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/185098.jpg?w=186] On the 25th April 1975 General Spinola, an old fascist, headed a military coup which overthrew the dictator Caetano. Spinola’s aim was to run an authoritarian regime. It was planned as a Palace Coup. Yet the massive upsurge in working class struggle, which immediately followed his coup, split the military and prevented Spinola from achieving his goal. The fact that the Portuguese revolution could have moved society further along towards socialist freedom and democracy is a tragedy, but the lesson from Portugal for Zimbabwe, Thailand and Egypt is the vital role of independent working class struggle. [https://uglytruththailand.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/140425-gp-portugal-coup-cover_0353fd6fbde26483364bedbe56e3e107-nbcnews-ux-2880-1000-1024x781.jpg?w=300] [https://uglytruththailand.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/42-18442428-a-portugal-revolution-a.jpg?w=232]23 Nov 1975, Lisbon, Portugal --- Portugal after Carnation Revolution --- Image by © Alain Keler/Sygma/Corbis Unfortunately those who understand this are a tiny minority among pro-democracy Thais. The hope in Zimbabwe is that this will not be the case. uglytruththailand | December 3, 2017 at 8:10 am | Tags: Giles Ji Ungpakorn, Military coup, Thai politics, working class, Zimbabwe | Categories: Thai politics| URL: https://wp.me/p4bxj7-wk Unsubscribe to no longer receive posts from Uglytruth-Thailand. Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions. Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: https://uglytruththailand.wordpress.com/2017/12/03/zimbabwe-thailand-egypt-portugal-no-such-thing-as-a-coup-for-democracy/ Thanks for flying with [https://s0.wp.com/i/emails/blavatar-default.png] WordPress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sun Dec 3 16:29:06 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:29:06 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: SNYTMAG on Uncle Paddy Sean Hannity Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 10:26 AM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: SNYTMAG on Uncle Paddy Sean Hannity For the record, Uncle Paddy Sean Hannity invited me onto his radio program in order to debate him twice. Each time when I got on there, after he introduced me, Uncle Paddy Hannity promptly turned me over to David Horrorwitz for the debate. Uncle Paddy Hannity is such an IDIOT that he could not debate me himself. At least when Uncle Paddy Bill O'Reilly twice invited me onto his Fox TV Show for a debate, Uncle Paddy Bill debated me himself. Fab. O'Reilly, Hannity, Kelly & VanSusteren Those Fox slimeballs! A disgrace to my Irish Race Blacks have their Uncle Toms We Irish have our Uncle Paddies and Aunt Patties Rupert Murdoch's House Micks and War Whores His Kept Irish Men and Women September 13, 2001 Yeah 48 hours After THAT day Fox calls Those Slimeballs Asking me to debate O'Reilly That slimeball On War versus Peace Him for war and me for peace That night live Deliberately walking into a buzz-saw But the lot had fallen to me To argue the case to My American People For Peace instead of War Of course I said yes Won the debate But when I could not defend myself on air O'Reilly, Newtie Gingrich and Reagan's Kirkpatrick Accused me of being an Al Qaeda Supporter Those slimeballs all! Threats, complaints, protests all night Next day my Law Dean That Slimeball! Put out a Statement Publicly disavowing and repudiating me To everyone possible Then placed it on the law school web-site For all to see Proving to all That the Law of the Jungle means more Than the Rule of Law and the Constitution At this so-called College of Law Then draped himself in the American Flag Patriotism -- the last refuge of that scoundrel And of all scoundrels everywhere So it has been now for 16 years Me arguing for Peace Against all those slimeballs and scoundrels Mongering for Wars, Torture, and Drones All over the world Even here at home Their American Nazi Homeland My Wild Irish Ass! O'Reilly, Hannity, Kelly & VanSusteren Those Fox slimeballs! A disgrace to my Irish Race Blacks have their Uncle Toms We Irish have our Uncle Paddies and Aunt Patties Rupert Murdoch's House Micks and War Whores His Kept Irish Men and Women Pretty clever of Rupie That Neo-Con Zionist To have Irish doing his dirty work for him In front of the American people Night after night Polluting and poisoning America's airwaves With bigotry, racism, warmongering, totalitarianism Murdoch's Irish Slimeballs On Rupie's Fox Slimeball Network Julius Streicher in the Nuremberg Dock Would be proud of them all at Murdoch's Fox Seventy years after World War Two The Nazis have won Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sun Dec 3 16:29:06 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:29:06 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: SNYTMAG on Uncle Paddy Sean Hannity Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 10:26 AM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: SNYTMAG on Uncle Paddy Sean Hannity For the record, Uncle Paddy Sean Hannity invited me onto his radio program in order to debate him twice. Each time when I got on there, after he introduced me, Uncle Paddy Hannity promptly turned me over to David Horrorwitz for the debate. Uncle Paddy Hannity is such an IDIOT that he could not debate me himself. At least when Uncle Paddy Bill O'Reilly twice invited me onto his Fox TV Show for a debate, Uncle Paddy Bill debated me himself. Fab. O'Reilly, Hannity, Kelly & VanSusteren Those Fox slimeballs! A disgrace to my Irish Race Blacks have their Uncle Toms We Irish have our Uncle Paddies and Aunt Patties Rupert Murdoch's House Micks and War Whores His Kept Irish Men and Women September 13, 2001 Yeah 48 hours After THAT day Fox calls Those Slimeballs Asking me to debate O'Reilly That slimeball On War versus Peace Him for war and me for peace That night live Deliberately walking into a buzz-saw But the lot had fallen to me To argue the case to My American People For Peace instead of War Of course I said yes Won the debate But when I could not defend myself on air O'Reilly, Newtie Gingrich and Reagan's Kirkpatrick Accused me of being an Al Qaeda Supporter Those slimeballs all! Threats, complaints, protests all night Next day my Law Dean That Slimeball! Put out a Statement Publicly disavowing and repudiating me To everyone possible Then placed it on the law school web-site For all to see Proving to all That the Law of the Jungle means more Than the Rule of Law and the Constitution At this so-called College of Law Then draped himself in the American Flag Patriotism -- the last refuge of that scoundrel And of all scoundrels everywhere So it has been now for 16 years Me arguing for Peace Against all those slimeballs and scoundrels Mongering for Wars, Torture, and Drones All over the world Even here at home Their American Nazi Homeland My Wild Irish Ass! O'Reilly, Hannity, Kelly & VanSusteren Those Fox slimeballs! A disgrace to my Irish Race Blacks have their Uncle Toms We Irish have our Uncle Paddies and Aunt Patties Rupert Murdoch's House Micks and War Whores His Kept Irish Men and Women Pretty clever of Rupie That Neo-Con Zionist To have Irish doing his dirty work for him In front of the American people Night after night Polluting and poisoning America's airwaves With bigotry, racism, warmongering, totalitarianism Murdoch's Irish Slimeballs On Rupie's Fox Slimeball Network Julius Streicher in the Nuremberg Dock Would be proud of them all at Murdoch's Fox Seventy years after World War Two The Nazis have won Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sun Dec 3 16:53:47 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:53:47 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The Pentagon, CIA, and NSA are in charge In-Reply-To: <1712561584.131191.1512179561287@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1712561584.131191.1512179561287.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1712561584.131191.1512179561287@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: An excellent article, the National Security State, as a label for the USG is in league with Deep State, Military Industrial Complex, etc for what we have big time. It does sound better than Deep State, a term coined by author Mike Lofgren. He does however, in his book of the same name, point out that It’s not just the three establishments referred to below: Pentagon, CIA, and NSA. It includes the influence of the Council on Foreign Relations and many Think Tanks, with support “monetary” from the many corporations and contractors profiting from war and militarism. We’ve reached the point in time, where within the establishment, all referred to above, the fight for power and control is taking place. On Dec 1, 2017, at 17:52, Dianna Visek via Peace-discuss > wrote: The Pentagon, CIA, and NSA are in charge Source: Future of Freedom Foundation by Jacob G Hornberger “What is a national security state? It’s a particular type of governmental structure, one that is inherent to totalitarian regimes. North Korea is a national-security state. So is China. So is Egypt. So is the United States. A national-security state consists of three primary components, all of which can be centralized into one entity or divided into separate departments and agencies. One component is a massive military establishment, one that plays a dominant role in society, both economically and sociologically. Another component consists of covert state-sponsored assassinations and cover-ups. The third component is secret monitoring of the citizenry — e.g., secretly listening in on telephone conversations, secretly reading people’s emails, secretly watching what people do on the Internet, and keeping secret files on people. In the United States, these three components are divided into three entities — the military establishment, the CIA, and the NSA.” (11/30/17) https://www.fff.org/2017/11/30/pentagon-cia-nsa-charge/ _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C5849f4b0967349a2ba4b08d539276e50%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636477763870650914&sdata=zSVbC0gvMDnE%2B2Q1zBxBLHXPOrPe3PmFwWvnTKIcuks%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sun Dec 3 16:56:16 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:56:16 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: [New post] Zimbabwe, Thailand, Egypt & Portugal: No such thing as a coup for democracy References: <61854989.2004.0@wordpress.com> Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: From: Uglytruth-Thailand > Subject: [New post] Zimbabwe, Thailand, Egypt & Portugal: No such thing as a coup for democracy Date: December 3, 2017 at 00:10:41 PST To: karenaram at hotmail.com New post on Uglytruth-Thailand [http://s0.wp.com/i/emails/blavatar.png] [http://2.gravatar.com/avatar/b94c98491e599510a5ec039e64af3261?s=50&d=identicon&r=G] Zimbabwe, Thailand, Egypt & Portugal: No such thing as a coup for democracy by uglytruththailand Giles Ji Ungpakorn The lessons from the military intervention in politics in Thailand are highly relevant to what is going on in Zimbabwe today, despite some of the differences. Over the last few weeks and days we have seen jubilant crowds in Harare celebrating the military coup which overthrew the dictator Mugabe. In Thailand in 2006 and 2014 we saw middle-class crowds urging the military to overthrow governments controlled by Taksin Shinawat. Despite the fact that these middle-class crowds were dominated by reactionary elements, who felt that democracy was not suitable for Thailand, there were many deluded fools, especially among the NGOs, who welcomed the intervention of the army to overthrow what they considered a “parliamentary dictatorship”. Of course Taksin abused human rights, but the governments which were controlled by him were not dictatorships. However, the point I wish to discuss is the belief among many people that a military coup can somehow bring about freedom and democracy. [https://uglytruththailand.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/royalists.jpg?w=300] Now the crowds celebrating in Harare were not mainly deluded fools. There was genuine elation at the overthrowing of a brutal dictator. Some, however, were indeed deluded fools believing that Mugabe’s former “enforcer” Mnangagwa was somehow a democrat and because he was a businessman he would restore the economy. Businessmen restore economies on their own class terms, on the backs of the working class and the poor. The common idea held by those who believe that military coups can bring about democracy is the feeling that ordinary people, especially workers, can never change society and bring about freedom and democracy. That is why NGO types suspend their intellect and cheer the military. They believe that ordinary poor people need to be “helped” and can never act collectively to change society. [https://uglytruththailand.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/mmantidemos-afp_.jpg?w=300] A similar event to Zimbabwe and Thailand took place in Egypt. There were mass protests when the elected President Mohamed Morsi started to betray the revolution. A majority among the crowds were under the illusion that the Egyptian military were the friends of the people. Only the radical Left warned that the military could not be trusted. Events showed that the military encouraged these protests and then hijacked them in order to come to power and roll back the revolution. In Zimbabwe a significant number of people celebrating in Harare, had deep reservations about the military and Mnangagwa. The make up of the "new" military-civilian government shows they were right. The radical Left is encouraging workers and students to organise independently in order to bring about real change. The working class of Zimbabwe is capable of this if there is strong enough political organisation. Workers in neighbouring South Africa also have significant power and could provide solidarity. But it is the events in Portugal in 1975 which show the importance of working class self-organisation following a military coup. Chris Harman’s wonderful book “The Fire Last Time: 1968 and after” makes the point clearly. [https://uglytruththailand.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/185098.jpg?w=186] On the 25th April 1975 General Spinola, an old fascist, headed a military coup which overthrew the dictator Caetano. Spinola’s aim was to run an authoritarian regime. It was planned as a Palace Coup. Yet the massive upsurge in working class struggle, which immediately followed his coup, split the military and prevented Spinola from achieving his goal. The fact that the Portuguese revolution could have moved society further along towards socialist freedom and democracy is a tragedy, but the lesson from Portugal for Zimbabwe, Thailand and Egypt is the vital role of independent working class struggle. [https://uglytruththailand.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/140425-gp-portugal-coup-cover_0353fd6fbde26483364bedbe56e3e107-nbcnews-ux-2880-1000-1024x781.jpg?w=300] [https://uglytruththailand.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/42-18442428-a-portugal-revolution-a.jpg?w=232]23 Nov 1975, Lisbon, Portugal --- Portugal after Carnation Revolution --- Image by © Alain Keler/Sygma/Corbis Unfortunately those who understand this are a tiny minority among pro-democracy Thais. The hope in Zimbabwe is that this will not be the case. uglytruththailand | December 3, 2017 at 8:10 am | Tags: Giles Ji Ungpakorn, Military coup, Thai politics, working class, Zimbabwe | Categories: Thai politics| URL: https://wp.me/p4bxj7-wk Unsubscribe to no longer receive posts from Uglytruth-Thailand. Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions. Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: https://uglytruththailand.wordpress.com/2017/12/03/zimbabwe-thailand-egypt-portugal-no-such-thing-as-a-coup-for-democracy/ Thanks for flying with [https://s0.wp.com/i/emails/blavatar-default.png] WordPress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sun Dec 3 17:05:02 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:05:02 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Anti-Tax Rally tomorrow at Rodney Davis office. Message-ID: [Marci Adelston-Schafer's photo.] DEC4 TAX RALLY at Rodney's Public · Hosted by Marci Adelston-Schafer Interested Share * clock Monday, December 4 at 12 PM - 2 PM CST Tomorrow * pin Rodney Davis' Champaign office at 2004 Fox Dr. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moboct1 at aim.com Sun Dec 3 18:40:41 2017 From: moboct1 at aim.com (Mildred O'brien) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 13:40:41 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism In-Reply-To: <1601da91949-1b27-64f9@webjas-vad028.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <1601dae2930-1d65-6585@webjas-vab200.srv.aolmail.net> Do not overlook (like many defenders of government policy of Israe) that Arabs also are Semites, having descended from the Sumerian, Abraham of Mesopotamia.  Being "anti-Semitic" logically includes being anti-Arabic, most of whom today are Muslim although some contemporary Arabs descend from the first Christians.  The term that describes Israeli militiantism towards Palestinians (both Christian and Islamist) is Zionism, a political movement originated among some Jews in Britain in 1873 by Theodore Herzl to reclaim Palestine as THE home of the Jews and promoted one hundred years ago by the Balfour Declaration.  M. O'Brien P.S. I don't know why the e-address of Stephen is undeliverable -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss To: peace-discuss ; Stephen Francis Sent: Sat, Dec 2, 2017 8:54 am Subject: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moboct1 at aim.com Sun Dec 3 18:42:33 2017 From: moboct1 at aim.com (Mildred O'brien) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 13:42:33 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: anti-Semitism In-Reply-To: <1601dae2930-1d65-6585@webjas-vab200.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <1601dafe103-1712-19ab@webjas-vab156.srv.aolmail.net> Do not overlook (like many defenders of government policy of Israel) that Arabs also are Semites, having descended from the Sumerian, Abraham of Mesopotamia.  Being "anti-Semitic" logically includes being anti-Arabic, most of whom today are Muslim although some contemporary Arabs descend from the first Christians.  The term that describes Israeli militiantism towards Palestinians (both Christian and Islamist) is Zionism, a political movement originated among some Jews in Britain in 1873 by Theodore Herzl to reclaim Palestine as THE home of the Jews and promoted one hundred years ago by the Balfour Declaration.  M. O'Brien P.S. I don't know why the e-address of Stephen is undeliverable -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss To: peace-discuss ; Stephen Francis Sent: Sat, Dec 2, 2017 8:54 am Subject: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmedina67 at gmail.com Sun Dec 3 18:53:30 2017 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (Karen Medina) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:53:30 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 In-Reply-To: References: <5a22e07d.87836b0a.e8f9d.990c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Friends should tell friends when they have become a presidential apologist. -karen medina > On Dec 2, 2017 Carl G Estabrook wrote: > It was in answer to your jibe, > On Dec 2, 2017, Karen Medina wrote: > Hi Carl, Was this to me or the other Karen? > After Nov 30, 2017 Carl G Estabrook wrote: > Karen, have you bought ‘Russiagate,' the political establishment’s attempt > to distract people from the anti-war movement? > On Nov 30, 2017 Karen Medina via Peace-discuss wrote: > Poor Carl, the idea of countering real, fake, or imagined impeachment > efforts has driven him to distraction. From divisek at yahoo.com Sun Dec 3 19:27:28 2017 From: divisek at yahoo.com (Dianna Visek) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 19:27:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] The Pentagon, CIA, and NSA are in charge In-Reply-To: References: <1712561584.131191.1512179561287.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1712561584.131191.1512179561287@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <460724470.716039.1512329248743@mail.yahoo.com> I like the name "National Security State" because it's so clear in it's implications for our civil rights and the world. Dianna On Sunday, December 3, 2017, 10:53:49 AM CST, Karen Aram wrote: An excellent article, the National Security State, as a label for the USG is in league with Deep State, Military Industrial Complex, etc for what we have big time. It does sound better than Deep State, a term coined by author Mike Lofgren. He does however, in his book of the same name, point out that It’s not just the three establishments referred to below: Pentagon, CIA, and NSA. It includes the influence of the Council on Foreign Relations and many Think Tanks, with support “monetary” from the many corporations and contractors profiting from war and militarism.  We’ve reached the point in time, where within the establishment, all referred to above, the fight for power and control is taking place. On Dec 1, 2017, at 17:52, Dianna Visek via Peace-discuss wrote: The Pentagon, CIA, and NSA are in charge Source: Future of Freedom Foundation by Jacob G Hornberger “What is a national security state? It’s a particular type of governmental structure, one that is inherent to totalitarian regimes. North Korea is a national-security state. So is China. So is Egypt. So is the United States. A national-security state consists of three primary components, all of which can be centralized into one entity or divided into separate departments and agencies. One component is a massive military establishment, one that plays a dominant role in society, both economically and sociologically. Another component consists of covert state-sponsored assassinations and cover-ups. The third component is secret monitoring of the citizenry — e.g., secretly listening in on telephone conversations, secretly reading people’s emails, secretly watching what people do on the Internet, and keeping secret files on people. In the United States, these three components are divided into three entities — the military establishment, the CIA, and the NSA.” (11/30/17) https://www.fff.org/2017/11/30/pentagon-cia-nsa-charge/ _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C5849f4b0967349a2ba4b08d539276e50%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636477763870650914&sdata=zSVbC0gvMDnE%2B2Q1zBxBLHXPOrPe3PmFwWvnTKIcuks%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sun Dec 3 19:54:44 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 19:54:44 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The Pentagon, CIA, and NSA are in charge In-Reply-To: <460724470.716039.1512329248743@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1712561584.131191.1512179561287.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1712561584.131191.1512179561287@mail.yahoo.com> <460724470.716039.1512329248743@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It sounds less conspiratorial than Deep State, which some of us hate having to say, even if it’s an accurate assessment. On Dec 3, 2017, at 11:27, Dianna Visek > wrote: I like the name "National Security State" because it's so clear in it's implications for our civil rights and the world. Dianna On Sunday, December 3, 2017, 10:53:49 AM CST, Karen Aram > wrote: An excellent article, the National Security State, as a label for the USG is in league with Deep State, Military Industrial Complex, etc for what we have big time. It does sound better than Deep State, a term coined by author Mike Lofgren. He does however, in his book of the same name, point out that It’s not just the three establishments referred to below: Pentagon, CIA, and NSA. It includes the influence of the Council on Foreign Relations and many Think Tanks, with support “monetary” from the many corporations and contractors profiting from war and militarism. We’ve reached the point in time, where within the establishment, all referred to above, the fight for power and control is taking place. On Dec 1, 2017, at 17:52, Dianna Visek via Peace-discuss > wrote: The Pentagon, CIA, and NSA are in charge Source: Future of Freedom Foundation by Jacob G Hornberger “What is a national security state? It’s a particular type of governmental structure, one that is inherent to totalitarian regimes. North Korea is a national-security state. So is China. So is Egypt. So is the United States. A national-security state consists of three primary components, all of which can be centralized into one entity or divided into separate departments and agencies. One component is a massive military establishment, one that plays a dominant role in society, both economically and sociologically. Another component consists of covert state-sponsored assassinations and cover-ups. The third component is secret monitoring of the citizenry — e.g., secretly listening in on telephone conversations, secretly reading people’s emails, secretly watching what people do on the Internet, and keeping secret files on people. In the United States, these three components are divided into three entities — the military establishment, the CIA, and the NSA.” (11/30/17) https://www.fff.org/2017/11/30/pentagon-cia-nsa-charge/ _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C5849f4b0967349a2ba4b08d539276e50%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636477763870650914&sdata=zSVbC0gvMDnE%2B2Q1zBxBLHXPOrPe3PmFwWvnTKIcuks%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sun Dec 3 20:05:23 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 14:05:23 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 In-Reply-To: References: <5a22e07d.87836b0a.e8f9d.990c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Trying to give an accurate account of the politics and interests behind Obama, Clinton, and Trump is not to act as an apologist for any one of them - which you know I'm not. Thomas Pynchon's great anti-war novel 'Gravity’s Rainbow’ (1973) has a section called “Proverbs for Paranoids.” (A ‘gravity rainbow’ is the parabolic trajectory of a rocket - the rainbow-shaped path created by a missile as it moves under the influence of gravity.) One of the Proverbs is ~ "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers." 'How do we get rid of Trump?' is a wrong question, and they - the US political establishment - know it’s an effective distraction from critiques of their war policies. —CGE > On Dec 3, 2017, at 12:53 PM, Karen Medina via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Friends should tell friends when they have become a presidential apologist. > -karen medina > >> On Dec 2, 2017 Carl G Estabrook wrote: >> It was in answer to your jibe, > >> On Dec 2, 2017, Karen Medina wrote: >> Hi Carl, Was this to me or the other Karen? > >> After Nov 30, 2017 Carl G Estabrook wrote: >> Karen, have you bought ‘Russiagate,' the political establishment’s attempt >> to distract people from the anti-war movement? > >> On Nov 30, 2017 Karen Medina via Peace-discuss wrote: >> Poor Carl, the idea of countering real, fake, or imagined impeachment >> efforts has driven him to distraction. > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 3 20:54:20 2017 From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 20:54:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] censorship test References: <1328706959.743117.1512334460996.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1328706959.743117.1512334460996@mail.yahoo.com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmedina67 at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 00:03:41 2017 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (Karen Medina) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 18:03:41 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] censored? In-Reply-To: <64BD6049-A618-4B79-9F99-05F9255ED7B7@illinois.edu> References: <1315199613.346706.1512147975557.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1315199613.346706.1512147975557@mail.yahoo.com> <64BD6049-A618-4B79-9F99-05F9255ED7B7@illinois.edu> Message-ID: Hi Stephen, What's up? 1. A. I don't see any evidence that your posts are not getting through. B. In fact, I see counter-evidence. I see many posts from you in the last few days. 2. What evidence do you see? A. You never responded to Carl's response to your request. B. What posts do you think are not getting through? C. If you don't tell us, we can't help you. 3. If you do not share what you are seeing, please stop bombarding our email with messages like > Was my last post censored? -karen medina On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 Carl G. Estabrook wrote: > Your last post began, "First, I need to correct something…” Was there a > later one? > > On Dec 1, 2017 Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > Was my last post censored? From kmedina67 at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 00:07:10 2017 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (Karen Medina) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 18:07:10 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism In-Reply-To: <1601dae2930-1d65-6585@webjas-vab200.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1601da91949-1b27-64f9@webjas-vad028.srv.aolmail.net> <1601dae2930-1d65-6585@webjas-vab200.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Ah, Stepehn, I think Midge has figured out your problem. There is something wrong with your email address: Stephen Francis Midge wrote: > P.S. I don't know why the e-address of Stephen is undeliverable From cgestabrook at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 03:56:53 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 21:56:53 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] A chronology of Obama's presidency, from an anti-war group's perspective Message-ID: <87E3F1E9-6448-4837-9FF1-605C2AC1AA5F@gmail.com> No need for a competition - there's blame enough to go around - but it's important to recognize how the US political establishment is using anti-Trump sentiment to buttress the neocon (more war) and neolib (more inequality) policies of the Obama-Clinton administration. —CGE [Mary Ann Caton] In case you're thinking that Trump is a worse president than Obama, Trump still has a long way to go: >. ### -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moboct1 at aim.com Mon Dec 4 12:41:02 2017 From: moboct1 at aim.com (Mildred O'brien) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 07:41:02 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism In-Reply-To: <347685999.741539.1512330719107@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <160218b4077-1d3e-802@webjas-vac080.srv.aolmail.net> Stephen: I think you cast your net too far.  The success of getting Britain to endorse the Balfour Declaration was alleged to be due to the assurance of Chaim Weizmann that he could convince American Jews (but most were opposed) to persuade the U.S. to enter World War I on the side of Britain. M. O'Brien -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Francis To: Mildred O'brien ; peace-discuss Sent: Sun, Dec 3, 2017 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism Finally, a refreshing and informative post on the reality of British Zionism and Palestine...a number of telling rabbit holes can be descended into from this perspective. Just to be brief, this conjures up mention of the British origins of Fabianism, the London School of Economics, Chatham House, the Roundtable, Alfred Milner and the Rothschilds.... and their conquest of resources to fuel the raging Industrial Revolution (late 1800s). There is a credible theory that British Zionists and the Crown were the main force behind bringing about the existence of Israel and Middle East oil ....not a homeland for the Jews... was the impetus...the British and the willing Zionist interlocuters needed a credible excuse that cloaked their real intentions and the Jewish Problem fit the bill. and...The Crown needed a new source of income also, after being chased out of China because of their successful attempt to addict millions of Chinese on opium. A different but related Rabbit whole is Marxism... Karl Marx (according to Michael Hoffman) once referred to Moses Hess as his rabbi. ... his works /with Engels... Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital were written in London where he spent most of his life....and was supported by British Zionists...this would all lead to the Cold War via the Jewish Bolshevik Revolution.... which is no longer a conspiracy that it was a Jewish operation... What was the Jewish role in 1917 Russian Revolution? This Moscow museum gives a full picture. What was the Jewish role in 1917 Russian Revolution? This Moscow museum giv... By By Cnaan Liphshiz (JTA) — Of all the many loaded issues tied to the bloody history of Jews in the former Soviet Union, none is as ... It was mostly Jewish spies that gave nuclear weapon secrets to the Soviet Union....too big a subject to tackle here. How can such a small population of people cause so much harm? On Sunday, December 3, 2017 12:35 PM, Mildred O'brien wrote: Do not overlook (like many defenders of government policy of Israel like to do) that Arabs are Semites, having also descended from the Sumerian, Abraham of Mesopotamia.  Being "anti-Semitic" logically includes being anti-Arabic, most of whom today are Muslim although some contemporary Arabs descend from the first Christians.  The term that describes Israeli militiantism towards Palestinians (both Christian and Islamist) is Zionism, a political movement originated among some Jews in Britain in 1873 by Theodore Herzl to reclaim Palestine as THE home of the Jews and promoted one hundred years ago by the Balfour Declaration.  M. O'Brien -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Francis via Peace-discuss To: peace-discuss ; Stephen Francis Sent: Sat, Dec 2, 2017 8:54 am Subject: [Peace-discuss] anti-Semitism I've become an avid researcher of Jewish history because of all the accusations of being racist and anti Semitic. I want to understand my claims...and it's been fascinating and unfortunately only deepened my distrust and dislike of the whole Jewish experience. There is credible evidence that the sacred claim of Jewish origination of monotheism is just plain old plagiarism...see Babylonians, Zoroastrians... Sumeria...etc...Jews may have popularized it...but was in existence long before Jews say they invented it.... all contributing to the long-term vitriol against Jews....ex: Martin Luther's 'The Jews and Their Lies' book...etc. As far as the destruction of the first and second Temples, they were the product of normal political machinations of a supremacist mindset that would not succumb to Roman power. The Jews miscalculated and overstepped their abilities in confronting or attacking Rome and were crushed basically in both instances...all in generalities...they were then totally expelled from Palestine because of mistrust, fear, and hatred by the local populations...They try to portray themselves as victims in this course of events....but it was just politics and war...nothing sacred. This has repeated itself in over 100 expulsions over the last two millennia and continues to this day.... there is a dramatic increase in modern forms anti-Semitism because of Jewish treatment of the Palestinians by the supporters of Netanyahu of whom the Jewish citizens put in office. He's a criminal psychopath doing the bidding of an electoral majority. If you thoroughly study Jewish history of exploitation, supremacism, and false flag treachery, it is sickening. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Mon Dec 4 13:15:05 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 13:15:05 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] After passage of Senate tax bill, Social Security and Medicare next Message-ID: * Print * Leaflet * Feedback * Share » Following passage of Senate tax bill, US ruling class takes aim at Social Security and Medicare 4 December 2017 The passage by the Senate of the Trump administration’s tax bill is a landmark in the decades-long ruling class offensive against the working class in the United States. With no serious opposition from the Democrats, and with final passage of a tax bill by the end of the month following negotiations with the House all but assured, congressional Republicans are moving on to the next stage of the class war agenda: the gutting of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. The Senate version of the bill adds $1.5 trillion to the federal budget deficit, triggering automatic cuts in spending for Medicare, the federal health insurance program for the elderly, of half a trillion dollars over 10 years, according to the Congressional Budget Office, and setting the stage for massive cuts in other social programs. Last week, Trump declared at a Missouri rally, “We’re going to go on to welfare reform.” On Wednesday, Republican Senator Marco Rubio of Florida told business executives: “Many argue that you can’t cut taxes because it will drive up the deficit.” On the contrary, he argued, the costs can be offset by imposing “structural changes to Social Security and Medicare for the future.” Talk of “structural changes” is political jargon for the privatization of these bedrock programs upon which hundreds of millions of people depend and their destruction as guaranteed entitlements. The envisioned cuts to entitlements will come on top of the hugely regressive provisions of the bill itself. Within 10 years, the Senate bill will increase taxes for households making under $75,000 while cutting taxes for households making more than that amount, with the richest 5 percent of the population getting the lion’s share of the total benefits. By 2027, the top 0.1 percent will see a two percent increase in their after-tax income, while the bottom 20 percent will suffer a decrease. Both the Senate and House versions of the bill cut the corporate tax rate nearly in half, from 35 percent to 20 percent. They allow corporations to repatriate profits stashed overseas at a bargain basement tax rate of 14.5 percent or less, a windfall worth hundreds of billions of dollars for the world’s largest companies, already flush with cash. The Senate version sharply reduces the estate tax on inherited wealth; the House version eliminates it entirely. The richest 0.2 percent of households, those with estates of $11 million or more, will be able to pass on their wealth to succeeding generations virtually intact, creating a modern version of a dynastic aristocracy. The House version of the bill imposes a huge tax increase on graduate students and the Senate version shifts funds from public schools to private and religious schools. This brazen plundering of society by and for the rich is sailing through Congress with no real opposition from the Democrats. They support a massive tax cut for corporations, proposing only a somewhat smaller reduction, and have repeatedly complained that the Republicans are shutting them out and refusing to negotiate a bipartisan tax cut for the rich. Such a piece of legislation could be adopted only because there is no organized resistance. The Democrats have made no appeal to popular opposition, which is widespread according to multiple opinion polls, and instead have concentrated on promoting the witch-hunt over alleged sexual mistreatment of women and the hysteria over supposed Russian meddling in the 2016 elections, both of which are being used to attack democratic principles of due process and the presumption of innocence and create the conditions for repression and censorship. These reactionary campaigns at the same time serve as a distraction while the ruling class raids the US Treasury and awards itself trillions in tax cuts. The trade unions have likewise done nothing to oppose the tax bill, which comes as no surprise since they are controlled by people whose six-figure salaries place them among the elite who will personally profit. The tax overhaul marks an escalation of the social counterrevolution carried out over the past four decades under Democratic as well as Republican administrations, in which tax cuts for corporations and the rich have played a central role. Following the 2008 Wall Street crash, this offensive was intensified. The Obama administration pumped trillions of dollars into Wall Street through bank bailouts, near-zero interest rates and “quantitative easing” money-printing operations. This was accompanied by attacks on wages and pensions and budget cuts at the federal, state and local levels. Obama’s signature domestic program, Obamacare, was aimed at shifting the cost of health care from corporations and the government to working people. The assault on the working class arises inexorably out of the capitalist system. For decades, the US ruling class has sought to offset the declining economic power of the United States, and the consequent pressure on corporate profits, through the redistribution of wealth and income from the working class to the rich. This has been accompanied by the creation of a series of speculative bubbles, including the dot.com bubble of the late 1990s, the real estate bubble of the 2000s, and the present boom in the value of financial assets. Warnings abound that the latest bubble, which started after the bank bailout and has seen the Dow Jones Industrial Average more than triple, is overdue for a massive correction, possibly eclipsing the 2008 financial crisis. The maintenance of the dizzying run-up in stock values requires an ever-more-aggressive upward redistribution of wealth to keep fresh cash flowing into the Ponzi scheme. As Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin put it, “To the extent we get the tax deal done, the stock market will go up higher.” He added a warning: “But there’s no question in my mind that if we don’t get it done you’re going to see a reversal of a significant amount of these gains.” This helps explain the frantic pace with which the ruling elite has moved to rush the tax bill through Congress. The Senate vote concluded at about 2 AM Saturday morning without members having had a chance to review the bill, which arrived with changes scribbled in the margins in barely-legible handwriting. In 2009, the World Socialist Web Site published a lecture by David North, “The Capitalist Crisis and the Return of History,” which argued that “the most essential feature of a historically significant crisis is that it leads to a situation where the major class forces within the affected country (and countries) are compelled to formulate and adopt an independent position in relationship to the crisis.” North noted, “For the ruling classes, this process takes place rather naturally. They assume that their interests, political and economic, are the only ones of any importance.” For the working class, however, “the formulation of an independent attitude toward the crisis, with the necessary program and policies, is a more protracted social and political process.” The ruling class has made clear its class response to the economic, political and social crisis gripping American society: More inequality, austerity and war. The new stage in the social counterrevolution will inevitably provoke mass opposition. The critical question for the working class is the formulation of, and mobilization around, a political program as determined and thoroughly worked out as that of the ruling class—one that articulates its needs and interests. Such a program must call for the confiscation of the wealth of the capitalist class, the seizure of the major corporations and their transformation into public utilities under democratic ownership and control, and the reorganization of social and economic life on the basis of social equality—that is, a socialist program. Andre Damon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 18:12:34 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 12:12:34 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] How true . . . In-Reply-To: References: <422A761D-E60F-459A-AAFA-DA2604F91D01@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <0BAFD5B4-4BD4-45BF-943D-BD053BD4FE0C@gmail.com> But they were all elected officials. > On Dec 2, 2017, at 7:15 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > This is nothing new, the White House has been known to be infested with mice and roaches before. > > >> On Dec 1, 2017, at 21:44, Szoke, Ron via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> The White House is infested with mice and roaches, NBC reports >> >> US news This morning >> There have been reports of mice and roaches and complaints about ants in the White House, according to work orders obtained by NBC News 4. >> From r-szoke at illinois.edu Mon Dec 4 19:05:40 2017 From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 19:05:40 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] U.S., South Korea Begin Massive Military Exercises References: <7763f5cc-e4cf-42c1-ba67-f9c757e84309@xtinp2mta4200.xt.local> Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: From: NPR > Subject: NPR.org - U.S., South Korea Begin Massive Military Exercises Date: December 4, 2017 r-szoke at illinois.edu has sent you the following story: U.S., South Korea Begin Massive Military Exercises [NPR] Ron thought you would be interested in this story Message: FYI U.S., South Korea Begin Massive Military Exercises The annual Vigilant Ace exercise is taking place amid increased tensions with North Korea over its nuclear program and the recent test of an improved, longer-range ICBM. Read this story [https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/12/04/gettyimages-848823234_sq-d86d2237767ace1e5b2cabbf6c74a4f8e95827e8.jpg?s=12] This email was sent by: NPR,1111 N. Capitol St. NE Washington, DC, 20002, United States. This message was sent to r-szoke at illinois.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Mon Dec 4 20:52:33 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 20:52:33 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Oh Little Town of Bethlehem - by Francis A. Boyle, Professor of International Law In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: O Little Town of Bethlehem- by Francis A. Boyle, Professor of International Law [The image "http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/beth06-front.jpg" cannot be displayed, because it contains errors.] O Little Town of Bethlehem Israel, Palestine and American Christian Hypocrites It was December of 1991 and I was serving as Legal Advisor to the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East Peace Negotiations in Washington DC. The Israelis were stalling, not even negotiating in bad faith, and the Americans under Baker and Ross were doing nothing to get the negotiations started. This had been going on for 3 weeks and Christmas was fast approaching. Those of us on the Palestinian Team who were Christian were wondering if we were going to be able to get home for Christmas--many Palestinians are Christian, the original Christians, going back to Jesus Christ and the Apostles themselves. I would periodically check in with my wife and 2 sons at the time--little boys. My poor, sweet wife had to do all the Christmas preparations by herself without me. So the weekend before Christmas I called her up to say I still did not know if or when I would be coming home. My oldest son who had just turned 5 talked to me on the phone: "Daddy why aren't you home for Christmas?" "Well son, I'm trying to help the Palestinians." "Daddy, why are you doing that?" Hard to explain the entire Middle East conflict to a 5 year old, so I put it into terms he could understand: "Son, you know that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem don't you?" "Yes Daddy." "Well I am here with the Mayor of Bethlehem and some other Palestinian leaders. They are my friends and I am their lawyer. I am working with the Mayor of Bethlehem to help all the Palestinian Children have a merry Christmas." "Ok Daddy." All his younger brother could say was: "DaDa come home!" He broke my heart. We got the word we could go home for Christmas on December 23 and I got on the first flight out of DC. getting home just on time for Christmas Eve with my family. Periodically I had attended UCC Christmas Season Church Services in town with my family. When it came time for prayers from the congregation, I always got up and asked everyone to help the Palestinians along the following lines: "...Bethlehem is cut-off and surrounded by the Israeli army--the Church of the Nativity too. The Israelis are inflicting ethnic cleansing upon all the Palestinians, both Muslims and Christians. They are also pursuing a policy of deliberately forcing Palestinian Christians out of Palestine as part of a perverse strategy to turn a war of national liberation into a religious crusade, figuring it would play better in the United States. And these are the original Christians, going back to Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Meanwhile, the United States government is financing it all to the tune of $5 billion per year. Everyone in this Congregation has gifts given to them by God. So go out and do something to help the Palestinians!" Despite my best efforts over many years, that UCC Congregation refused to lift even one finger to help the Palestinians. So several years ago, I quit their Congregation and severed all ties with them. They are just a gang of moral cowards and hypocrites. They have nothing to teach me or anyone else about Christianity, let alone about peace, justice and human rights. They constitute the paradigmatic example of what the anti-Nazi martyr and pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer called Cheap Grace Francis A. Boyle, Champaign, IL. Professor of International Law Legal Advisor to the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East Peace Negotiations (1991-93) ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 269249 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Mon Dec 4 20:52:33 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 20:52:33 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Oh Little Town of Bethlehem - by Francis A. Boyle, Professor of International Law In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: O Little Town of Bethlehem- by Francis A. Boyle, Professor of International Law [The image "http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/beth06-front.jpg" cannot be displayed, because it contains errors.] O Little Town of Bethlehem Israel, Palestine and American Christian Hypocrites It was December of 1991 and I was serving as Legal Advisor to the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East Peace Negotiations in Washington DC. The Israelis were stalling, not even negotiating in bad faith, and the Americans under Baker and Ross were doing nothing to get the negotiations started. This had been going on for 3 weeks and Christmas was fast approaching. Those of us on the Palestinian Team who were Christian were wondering if we were going to be able to get home for Christmas--many Palestinians are Christian, the original Christians, going back to Jesus Christ and the Apostles themselves. I would periodically check in with my wife and 2 sons at the time--little boys. My poor, sweet wife had to do all the Christmas preparations by herself without me. So the weekend before Christmas I called her up to say I still did not know if or when I would be coming home. My oldest son who had just turned 5 talked to me on the phone: "Daddy why aren't you home for Christmas?" "Well son, I'm trying to help the Palestinians." "Daddy, why are you doing that?" Hard to explain the entire Middle East conflict to a 5 year old, so I put it into terms he could understand: "Son, you know that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem don't you?" "Yes Daddy." "Well I am here with the Mayor of Bethlehem and some other Palestinian leaders. They are my friends and I am their lawyer. I am working with the Mayor of Bethlehem to help all the Palestinian Children have a merry Christmas." "Ok Daddy." All his younger brother could say was: "DaDa come home!" He broke my heart. We got the word we could go home for Christmas on December 23 and I got on the first flight out of DC. getting home just on time for Christmas Eve with my family. Periodically I had attended UCC Christmas Season Church Services in town with my family. When it came time for prayers from the congregation, I always got up and asked everyone to help the Palestinians along the following lines: "...Bethlehem is cut-off and surrounded by the Israeli army--the Church of the Nativity too. The Israelis are inflicting ethnic cleansing upon all the Palestinians, both Muslims and Christians. They are also pursuing a policy of deliberately forcing Palestinian Christians out of Palestine as part of a perverse strategy to turn a war of national liberation into a religious crusade, figuring it would play better in the United States. And these are the original Christians, going back to Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Meanwhile, the United States government is financing it all to the tune of $5 billion per year. Everyone in this Congregation has gifts given to them by God. So go out and do something to help the Palestinians!" Despite my best efforts over many years, that UCC Congregation refused to lift even one finger to help the Palestinians. So several years ago, I quit their Congregation and severed all ties with them. They are just a gang of moral cowards and hypocrites. They have nothing to teach me or anyone else about Christianity, let alone about peace, justice and human rights. They constitute the paradigmatic example of what the anti-Nazi martyr and pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer called Cheap Grace Francis A. Boyle, Champaign, IL. Professor of International Law Legal Advisor to the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East Peace Negotiations (1991-93) ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 269249 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Tue Dec 5 03:15:21 2017 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 21:15:21 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Oh Little Town of Bethlehem - by Francis A. Boyle, Professor of International Law Message-ID: For some reason, this story feels like the real Christmas season.  Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discussDate: Mon, Dec 4, 2017 2:53 PMTo: 'David Green';Miller, Joseph Thomas;'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com';'peace-discuss at anti-war.net';'C. G. ESTABROOK';'a-fields at uiuc.edu';'Joe Lauria';'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net';'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net';Szoke, Ron;'Arlene Hickory';'Karen Aram';'abass10 at gmail.com';'mickalideh at gmail.com';'Lina Thorne';'chicago at worldcantwait.net';'Jay';'David Johnson';'Mildred O'brien';'C G Estabrook';Cc: Subject:[Peace-discuss] Oh Little Town of Bethlehem - by Francis A. Boyle, Professor of International Law   O Little Town of Bethlehem- by Francis A. Boyle, Professor of International Law   O Little Town of Bethlehem Israel, Palestine and American Christian Hypocrites It was December of 1991 and I was serving as Legal Advisor to the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East Peace Negotiations in Washington DC. The Israelis were stalling, not even negotiating in bad faith, and the Americans under Baker and Ross were doing nothing to get the negotiations started. This had been going on for 3 weeks and Christmas was fast approaching. Those of us on the Palestinian Team who were Christian were wondering if we were going to be able to get home for Christmas--many Palestinians are Christian, the original Christians, going back to Jesus Christ and the Apostles themselves. I would periodically check in with my wife and 2 sons at the time--little boys. My poor, sweet wife had to do all the Christmas preparations by herself without me. So the weekend before Christmas I called her up to say I still did not know if or when I would be coming home. My oldest son who had just turned 5 talked to me on the phone: "Daddy why aren't you home for Christmas?" "Well son, I'm trying to help the Palestinians." "Daddy, why are you doing that?" Hard to explain the entire Middle East conflict to a 5 year old, so I put it into terms he could understand: "Son, you know that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem don't you?" "Yes Daddy." "Well I am here with the Mayor of Bethlehem and some other Palestinian leaders. They are my friends and I am their lawyer. I am working with the Mayor of Bethlehem to help all the Palestinian Children have a merry Christmas." "Ok Daddy."   All his younger brother could say was: “DaDa come home!” He broke my heart. We got the word we could go home for Christmas on December 23 and I got on the first flight out of DC. getting home just on time for Christmas Eve with my family. Periodically I had attended UCC Christmas Season Church Services in town with my family. When it came time for prayers from the congregation, I always got up and asked everyone to help the Palestinians along the following lines: "...Bethlehem is cut-off and surrounded by the Israeli army--the Church of the Nativity too. The Israelis are inflicting ethnic cleansing upon all the Palestinians, both Muslims and Christians. They are also pursuing a policy of deliberately forcing Palestinian Christians out of Palestine as part of a perverse strategy to turn a war of national liberation into a religious crusade, figuring it would play better in the United States. And these are the original Christians, going back to Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Meanwhile, the United States government is financing it all to the tune of $5 billion per year. Everyone in this Congregation has gifts given to them by God. So go out and do something to help the Palestinians!" Despite my best efforts over  many  years, that UCC Congregation refused to lift even  one finger to help the Palestinians. So  several years ago, I quit their Congregation and severed all ties with them. They are just a gang of moral cowards and hypocrites. They have nothing to teach me or anyone else about Christianity, let alone about peace, justice and human rights. They constitute the paradigmatic example of what the anti-Nazi martyr and pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer called Cheap Grace Francis A. Boyle, Champaign, IL. Professor of International Law Legal Advisor to the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East Peace Negotiations (1991-93) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Tue Dec 5 03:15:21 2017 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 21:15:21 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Oh Little Town of Bethlehem - by Francis A. Boyle, Professor of International Law Message-ID: For some reason, this story feels like the real Christmas season.  Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discussDate: Mon, Dec 4, 2017 2:53 PMTo: 'David Green';Miller, Joseph Thomas;'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com';'peace-discuss at anti-war.net';'C. G. ESTABROOK';'a-fields at uiuc.edu';'Joe Lauria';'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net';'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net';Szoke, Ron;'Arlene Hickory';'Karen Aram';'abass10 at gmail.com';'mickalideh at gmail.com';'Lina Thorne';'chicago at worldcantwait.net';'Jay';'David Johnson';'Mildred O'brien';'C G Estabrook';Cc: Subject:[Peace-discuss] Oh Little Town of Bethlehem - by Francis A. Boyle, Professor of International Law   O Little Town of Bethlehem- by Francis A. Boyle, Professor of International Law   O Little Town of Bethlehem Israel, Palestine and American Christian Hypocrites It was December of 1991 and I was serving as Legal Advisor to the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East Peace Negotiations in Washington DC. The Israelis were stalling, not even negotiating in bad faith, and the Americans under Baker and Ross were doing nothing to get the negotiations started. This had been going on for 3 weeks and Christmas was fast approaching. Those of us on the Palestinian Team who were Christian were wondering if we were going to be able to get home for Christmas--many Palestinians are Christian, the original Christians, going back to Jesus Christ and the Apostles themselves. I would periodically check in with my wife and 2 sons at the time--little boys. My poor, sweet wife had to do all the Christmas preparations by herself without me. So the weekend before Christmas I called her up to say I still did not know if or when I would be coming home. My oldest son who had just turned 5 talked to me on the phone: "Daddy why aren't you home for Christmas?" "Well son, I'm trying to help the Palestinians." "Daddy, why are you doing that?" Hard to explain the entire Middle East conflict to a 5 year old, so I put it into terms he could understand: "Son, you know that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem don't you?" "Yes Daddy." "Well I am here with the Mayor of Bethlehem and some other Palestinian leaders. They are my friends and I am their lawyer. I am working with the Mayor of Bethlehem to help all the Palestinian Children have a merry Christmas." "Ok Daddy."   All his younger brother could say was: “DaDa come home!” He broke my heart. We got the word we could go home for Christmas on December 23 and I got on the first flight out of DC. getting home just on time for Christmas Eve with my family. Periodically I had attended UCC Christmas Season Church Services in town with my family. When it came time for prayers from the congregation, I always got up and asked everyone to help the Palestinians along the following lines: "...Bethlehem is cut-off and surrounded by the Israeli army--the Church of the Nativity too. The Israelis are inflicting ethnic cleansing upon all the Palestinians, both Muslims and Christians. They are also pursuing a policy of deliberately forcing Palestinian Christians out of Palestine as part of a perverse strategy to turn a war of national liberation into a religious crusade, figuring it would play better in the United States. And these are the original Christians, going back to Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Meanwhile, the United States government is financing it all to the tune of $5 billion per year. Everyone in this Congregation has gifts given to them by God. So go out and do something to help the Palestinians!" Despite my best efforts over  many  years, that UCC Congregation refused to lift even  one finger to help the Palestinians. So  several years ago, I quit their Congregation and severed all ties with them. They are just a gang of moral cowards and hypocrites. They have nothing to teach me or anyone else about Christianity, let alone about peace, justice and human rights. They constitute the paradigmatic example of what the anti-Nazi martyr and pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer called Cheap Grace Francis A. Boyle, Champaign, IL. Professor of International Law Legal Advisor to the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East Peace Negotiations (1991-93) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Tue Dec 5 15:29:56 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 15:29:56 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: Kagan for Trump's Muslim Travel Ban! Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2017 9:28 AM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: Kagan for Trump's Muslim Travel Ban! Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, Illinois 61820 217-333-7954 (voice) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Institute for Public Accuracy [mailto:dcinstitute at igc.org] Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 11:11 AM To: Institute for Public Accuracy Subject: Interviews Available -- Kagan: Shifting the Supreme Court to the Right? On the web: http://accuracy.org/newsrelease.php?articleId=2218 Institute for Public Accuracy 980 National Press Building, Washington, D.C. 20045 (202) 347-0020 * http://www.accuracy.org * ipa at accuracy.org ___________________________________________________ Tuesday, April 13, 2010 Supreme Court Pick: Kagan "Loves" the Federalist Society Interviews Available Solicitor General Elena Kagan is widely reported to be a leading contender for the Supreme Court position being vacated by John Paul Stevens. FRANCIS BOYLE, (217) 333-7954, fboyle at law.uiuc.edu Professor of law at the University of Illinois, Boyle is author of "Tackling America's Toughest Questions." He said today: "As dean of the Harvard Law School, Kagan hired Bush's outgoing director of the Office of Legal Counsel, Jack Goldsmith, as a law professor. Goldsmith is regarded by myself and many others in the field as a war criminal. He wrote some of the memos that attempted to make violations of the Geneva Conventions appear legal. Kagan actually bragged about 'how proud' she was to have hired Goldsmith after one of his criminal Department of Justice memoranda was written up in the Washington Post. "During the course of her Senate confirmation hearings as Solicitor General, Kagan explicitly endorsed the Bush administration's bogus category of 'enemy combatant,' whose implementation has been a war crime in its own right. Now in her current job as U.S. Solicitor General, Kagan is quarterbacking the continuation of the Bush administration's illegal and unconstitutional positions in U.S. federal court litigation around the country, including in the U.S. Supreme Court. For example, early this month, the Obama administration lost an illegal wiretapping case. One of the lawyers in the case who won, Jon Eisenberg, said the Obama administration is as bad or worse than the Bush administration when it comes to issues like state secrets and wiretapping. "Kagan is apparently being backed by several people who are indebted to her from her time at Harvard. [Professors Laurence] Tribe, [Charles] Ogletree and [Alan] Dershowitz all had plagiarism scandals while Kagan headed up the law school -- and she in effect bailed them all out. Tribe and Ogletree were teachers/mentors to Obama and still advise him today, Tribe recently taking a job in the Department of Justice along with Kagan. She was named dean at Harvard by Larry Summers, who helped deregulate much of Wall Street in the Clinton administration and organize much of its bailout under Obama. "Kagan has said 'I love the Federalist Society.' This is a right-wing group; almost all of the Bush administration lawyers responsible for its war and torture memos are members of the Federalist Society. Many members of the Federalist Society say that Brown v. Board of Education [which struck down 'separate but equal'] was decided wrongly. "Five currently on the U.S. Supreme Court were or are members of the Federalist Society: Harvard Law graduate Roberts; Harvard Law graduate Scalia; Harvard Law graduate Kennedy; Yale Law graduate Thomas; and Yale Law graduate Alito. A narrow elite is imposing itself through the legal system, and ordinary Americans need to start asserting themselves." Boyle is a former chair of the Harvard Law School Fund Campaign for Greater Illinois and a magna cum laude graduate of Harvard Law School. Background: Glenn Greenwald on Tuesday wrote in "The Case Against Elena Kagan": "The prospect that Stevens will be replaced by Elena Kagan has led to the growing perception that Barack Obama will actually take a Supreme Court dominated by Justices Scalia (Reagan), Thomas (Bush 41), Roberts (Bush 43), Alito (Bush 43) and Kennedy (Reagan) and move it further to the Right. Joe Lieberman went on Fox News this weekend to celebrate the prospect that 'President Obama may nominate someone in fact who makes the Court slightly less liberal.'" http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/04/13/kagan/index.html The New York Times reported on Friday: "In an interview last week, [Stevens] said that every one of the dozen justices appointed to the court since 1971, including himself, was more conservative than his or her predecessor. 'We’ll wait and see to see if the most recent change fits that,' he said of Justice Sonia Sotomayor, who joined the court last year. 'But prior to Sonia’s joining the court that was true with the possible exception of Ruth Ginsburg.'" The Murdoch-owned Wall Street Journal reported Monday: "As dean of Harvard, Ms. Kagan cultivated good relations with conservatives, hiring several professors with right-leaning views and reaching out to the Federalist Society, a training ground for lawyers who often go on to populate Republican administrations." Jeff Cohen wrote last year: "Will Obama Move Supreme Court Rightward?" http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/05/20 For more information, contact at the Institute for Public Accuracy: Sam Husseini, (202) 347-0020, (202) 421-6858; or David Zupan, (541) 484-9167 _________________________________________________________________ You received this message as a subscriber on the list: mediagen at lists.accuracy.org From fboyle at illinois.edu Tue Dec 5 15:29:56 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 15:29:56 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: Kagan for Trump's Muslim Travel Ban! Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2017 9:28 AM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: Kagan for Trump's Muslim Travel Ban! Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, Illinois 61820 217-333-7954 (voice) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Institute for Public Accuracy [mailto:dcinstitute at igc.org] Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 11:11 AM To: Institute for Public Accuracy Subject: Interviews Available -- Kagan: Shifting the Supreme Court to the Right? On the web: http://accuracy.org/newsrelease.php?articleId=2218 Institute for Public Accuracy 980 National Press Building, Washington, D.C. 20045 (202) 347-0020 * http://www.accuracy.org * ipa at accuracy.org ___________________________________________________ Tuesday, April 13, 2010 Supreme Court Pick: Kagan "Loves" the Federalist Society Interviews Available Solicitor General Elena Kagan is widely reported to be a leading contender for the Supreme Court position being vacated by John Paul Stevens. FRANCIS BOYLE, (217) 333-7954, fboyle at law.uiuc.edu Professor of law at the University of Illinois, Boyle is author of "Tackling America's Toughest Questions." He said today: "As dean of the Harvard Law School, Kagan hired Bush's outgoing director of the Office of Legal Counsel, Jack Goldsmith, as a law professor. Goldsmith is regarded by myself and many others in the field as a war criminal. He wrote some of the memos that attempted to make violations of the Geneva Conventions appear legal. Kagan actually bragged about 'how proud' she was to have hired Goldsmith after one of his criminal Department of Justice memoranda was written up in the Washington Post. "During the course of her Senate confirmation hearings as Solicitor General, Kagan explicitly endorsed the Bush administration's bogus category of 'enemy combatant,' whose implementation has been a war crime in its own right. Now in her current job as U.S. Solicitor General, Kagan is quarterbacking the continuation of the Bush administration's illegal and unconstitutional positions in U.S. federal court litigation around the country, including in the U.S. Supreme Court. For example, early this month, the Obama administration lost an illegal wiretapping case. One of the lawyers in the case who won, Jon Eisenberg, said the Obama administration is as bad or worse than the Bush administration when it comes to issues like state secrets and wiretapping. "Kagan is apparently being backed by several people who are indebted to her from her time at Harvard. [Professors Laurence] Tribe, [Charles] Ogletree and [Alan] Dershowitz all had plagiarism scandals while Kagan headed up the law school -- and she in effect bailed them all out. Tribe and Ogletree were teachers/mentors to Obama and still advise him today, Tribe recently taking a job in the Department of Justice along with Kagan. She was named dean at Harvard by Larry Summers, who helped deregulate much of Wall Street in the Clinton administration and organize much of its bailout under Obama. "Kagan has said 'I love the Federalist Society.' This is a right-wing group; almost all of the Bush administration lawyers responsible for its war and torture memos are members of the Federalist Society. Many members of the Federalist Society say that Brown v. Board of Education [which struck down 'separate but equal'] was decided wrongly. "Five currently on the U.S. Supreme Court were or are members of the Federalist Society: Harvard Law graduate Roberts; Harvard Law graduate Scalia; Harvard Law graduate Kennedy; Yale Law graduate Thomas; and Yale Law graduate Alito. A narrow elite is imposing itself through the legal system, and ordinary Americans need to start asserting themselves." Boyle is a former chair of the Harvard Law School Fund Campaign for Greater Illinois and a magna cum laude graduate of Harvard Law School. Background: Glenn Greenwald on Tuesday wrote in "The Case Against Elena Kagan": "The prospect that Stevens will be replaced by Elena Kagan has led to the growing perception that Barack Obama will actually take a Supreme Court dominated by Justices Scalia (Reagan), Thomas (Bush 41), Roberts (Bush 43), Alito (Bush 43) and Kennedy (Reagan) and move it further to the Right. Joe Lieberman went on Fox News this weekend to celebrate the prospect that 'President Obama may nominate someone in fact who makes the Court slightly less liberal.'" http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/04/13/kagan/index.html The New York Times reported on Friday: "In an interview last week, [Stevens] said that every one of the dozen justices appointed to the court since 1971, including himself, was more conservative than his or her predecessor. 'We’ll wait and see to see if the most recent change fits that,' he said of Justice Sonia Sotomayor, who joined the court last year. 'But prior to Sonia’s joining the court that was true with the possible exception of Ruth Ginsburg.'" The Murdoch-owned Wall Street Journal reported Monday: "As dean of Harvard, Ms. Kagan cultivated good relations with conservatives, hiring several professors with right-leaning views and reaching out to the Federalist Society, a training ground for lawyers who often go on to populate Republican administrations." Jeff Cohen wrote last year: "Will Obama Move Supreme Court Rightward?" http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/05/20 For more information, contact at the Institute for Public Accuracy: Sam Husseini, (202) 347-0020, (202) 421-6858; or David Zupan, (541) 484-9167 _________________________________________________________________ You received this message as a subscriber on the list: mediagen at lists.accuracy.org From karenaram at hotmail.com Tue Dec 5 16:05:53 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 16:05:53 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Alfred McCoy: The Rise and Decline of US Global Power Message-ID: https://youtu.be/3GygmGSwvcI From divisek at yahoo.com Tue Dec 5 18:38:08 2017 From: divisek at yahoo.com (Dianna Visek) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:38:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Russia: Our New (and Old) Official Enemy References: <133922835.2112398.1512499088967.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <133922835.2112398.1512499088967@mail.yahoo.com> This is an interesting article which compares Trump's and Kennedy's efforts to normalize relations with Russia and the reactions by the national security state. Russia: Our New (and Old) Official Enemy - The Future of Freedom Foundation | | | | | | | | | | | Russia: Our New (and Old) Official Enemy - The Future of Freedom Foundation Robert Mueller’s investigation of the Trump administration confirms the overarching power of the national-securi... | | | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From divisek at yahoo.com Tue Dec 5 18:50:22 2017 From: divisek at yahoo.com (Dianna Visek) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:50:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] double standards concerning sexual abuse References: <1444603582.2105780.1512499822290.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1444603582.2105780.1512499822290@mail.yahoo.com> Apparently the US government has been punishing US soldiers for protesting sexual abuse of young boys perpetrated by Aghan security forces.  See towards the end of this blog.  The beginning discusses whether abuse charges tend to be leveled against men at the end of their careers (age discrimination?) Once Upon a Time...: The Sickeningly Narrow Focus of Our Outrage | | | | Once Upon a Time...: The Sickeningly Narrow Focus of Our Outrage | | | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Tue Dec 5 18:57:43 2017 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 12:57:43 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Russia: Our New (and Old) Official Enemy In-Reply-To: <133922835.2112398.1512499088967@mail.yahoo.com> References: <133922835.2112398.1512499088967.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <133922835.2112398.1512499088967@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <265AE037-9463-4989-9C40-B5173B620C19@illinois.edu> The Reagan administration in office modeled itself on the Kennedy administration (large tax cuts; new approach to Russia; military attacks on revolting parts of the empire [Kennedy-Vietnam; Reagan-Latin America]). The Trump administration is following the same pattern - in re taxes, Russia, military attacks on revolting parts of the empire (Mideast & N. Africa). > On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:38 PM, Dianna Visek via Peace-discuss wrote: > > This is an interesting article which compares Trump's and Kennedy's efforts to normalize relations with Russia and the reactions by the national security state. > > Russia: Our New (and Old) Official Enemy - The Future of Freedom Foundation > > Russia: Our New (and Old) Official Enemy - The Future of Freedom Foundation > Robert Mueller’s investigation of the Trump administration confirms the overarching power of the national-securi... > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Tue Dec 5 22:55:49 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 16:55:49 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: References: <1529059805.2033891.1512495610735@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9DD132-EF96-4AD4-9D50-C18F8BDBCC24@gmail.com> Message-ID: <012e01d36e1c$31fcd830$95f68890$@comcast.net> I agree Karen ! See you there. David J. From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM To: C G Estabrook Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram wrote: What about AWARE endorsing the rally? On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green wrote: I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram wrote: I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. Please see below Joel’s message: "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging Their FB message: Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 00:08:41 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:08:41 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: <012e01d36e1c$31fcd830$95f68890$@comcast.net> References: <1529059805.2033891.1512495610735@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9DD132-EF96-4AD4-9D50-C18F8BDBCC24@gmail.com> <012e01d36e1c$31fcd830$95f68890$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9F35035C-D2ED-45B7-80E4-924D4A39E6FF@gmail.com> No one is suggesting that Congress is passing the tax bill merely or even primarily to distract the electorate from the wars! But the political establishment (deep-state/war-party/etc.) is in fact working to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., the “#Resistance” campaign). Neoliberal and neoconservative policies (the former and latter, respectively) are not the same, altho’ they serve the same dominant social groups. AWARE has primarily opposed the wars, rather than advancing ‘left’ positions in general (even if we could agree what they were). That’s perhaps even more important today, after the success of the political establishment over the last decade in distracting the antiwar movement. > On Dec 5, 2017, at 4:55 PM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: > > I agree Karen ! > > See you there. > > David J. > > From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com ] > Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM > To: C G Estabrook > Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien > Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday > > The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. > > I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. > >> >> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >> >> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >> >> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >> >> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >> >> >>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: >>> >>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>> >>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green > wrote: >>>> >>>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>>> >>>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>>> >>>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>>> >>>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>>> >>>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>>> >>>> Their FB message: >>>> >>>>>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>>>>> >>>>>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>> >>> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Dec 6 00:55:39 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 00:55:39 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: References: <1529059805.2033891.1512495610735@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9DD132-EF96-4AD4-9D50-C18F8BDBCC24@gmail.com> Message-ID: If wars are due to “profit incentive,” as we usually agree, its the capitalist system that is responsible, and therefore needs to be changed. A few people protesting wars hasn’t gotten us very far, no one is listening, in spite of their kind words thanking us. An increase in taxes, which will impact on social services, and the working class, must be stopped. It serves only to provide more profits to the elites conducting the wars. Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security are on the agenda next. More governments are brought down when the people are hungry, than wars taking place in far away nations. If you want to stop war, and prevent further ones from occurring, you will rally and unite with others on the issue of tax increases for the poor and working class. This isn’t the Democrat Party making a scene, showing they care. This is those that are suffering the consequences of all that is taking place now and in the future. > On Dec 5, 2017, at 16:27, C G Estabrook wrote: > > No one is suggesting that Congress is passing the tax bill merely or even primarily to distract the electorate from the wars! > > But the political establishment (deep-state/war-party/etc.) is in fact working to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., the “#Resistance” campaign). > > Neoliberal and neoconservative policies (the former and latter, respectively) are not the same, altho’ they serve the same dominant social groups. > > AWARE has primarily opposed the wars, rather than advancing ‘left’ positions in general (even if we could agree what they were). > > That’s perhaps even more important today, after the success of the political establishment over the last decade in distracting the antiwar movement. > > —CGE > >> On Dec 5, 2017, at 4:26 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >> >> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >> >> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >> >>> >>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >>> >>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>> >>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>> >>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>> >>>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>>> >>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>>>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>>>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>>>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>>>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>>>> >>>>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>>>> >>>>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>>>> >>>>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>>>> >>>>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>>>> >>>>> Their FB message: >>>>> >>>>>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>>>>> >>>>>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>>> >>> >> > From cgestabrook at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 01:18:37 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 19:18:37 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: References: <1529059805.2033891.1512495610735@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9DD132-EF96-4AD4-9D50-C18F8BDBCC24@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2936DF33-F497-4D17-93D8-E0E44A2CE6A9@gmail.com> My spirit is willing, but my Southern blood is too thin to take 30-degree weather. לשנה הבאה בירושלים [next year in Jerusalem] perhaps. —CGE > On Dec 5, 2017, at 6:55 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > If wars are due to “profit incentive,” as we usually agree, its the capitalist system that is responsible, and therefore needs to be changed. > > A few people protesting wars hasn’t gotten us very far, no one is listening, in spite of their kind words thanking us. > > An increase in taxes, which will impact on social services, and the working class, must be stopped. It serves only to provide more profits to the elites conducting the wars. > > Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security are on the agenda next. More governments are brought down when the people are hungry, than wars taking place in far away nations. > > If you want to stop war, and prevent further ones from occurring, you will rally and unite with others on the issue of tax increases for the poor and working class. > > This isn’t the Democrat Party making a scene, showing they care. This is those that are suffering the consequences of all that is taking place now and in the future. > > >> On Dec 5, 2017, at 16:27, C G Estabrook wrote: >> >> No one is suggesting that Congress is passing the tax bill merely or even primarily to distract the electorate from the wars! >> >> But the political establishment (deep-state/war-party/etc.) is in fact working to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., the “#Resistance” campaign). >> >> Neoliberal and neoconservative policies (the former and latter, respectively) are not the same, altho’ they serve the same dominant social groups. >> >> AWARE has primarily opposed the wars, rather than advancing ‘left’ positions in general (even if we could agree what they were). >> >> That’s perhaps even more important today, after the success of the political establishment over the last decade in distracting the antiwar movement. >> >> —CGE >> >>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 4:26 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>> >>> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >>> >>> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >>> >>>> >>>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >>>> >>>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>>> >>>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>>> >>>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>>>>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>>>>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>>>>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>>>>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>>>>> >>>>>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>>>>> >>>>>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>>>>> >>>>>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>>>>> >>>>>> Their FB message: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Dec 6 02:24:11 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 02:24:11 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: <2936DF33-F497-4D17-93D8-E0E44A2CE6A9@gmail.com> References: <1529059805.2033891.1512495610735@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9DD132-EF96-4AD4-9D50-C18F8BDBCC24@gmail.com> <2936DF33-F497-4D17-93D8-E0E44A2CE6A9@gmail.com> Message-ID: I can certainly appreciate that. Will AWARE give its endorsement to the rally? > On Dec 5, 2017, at 17:18, C G Estabrook wrote: > > My spirit is willing, but my Southern blood is too thin to take 30-degree weather. > > לשנה הבאה בירושלים [next year in Jerusalem] perhaps. —CGE > > >> On Dec 5, 2017, at 6:55 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> If wars are due to “profit incentive,” as we usually agree, its the capitalist system that is responsible, and therefore needs to be changed. >> >> A few people protesting wars hasn’t gotten us very far, no one is listening, in spite of their kind words thanking us. >> >> An increase in taxes, which will impact on social services, and the working class, must be stopped. It serves only to provide more profits to the elites conducting the wars. >> >> Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security are on the agenda next. More governments are brought down when the people are hungry, than wars taking place in far away nations. >> >> If you want to stop war, and prevent further ones from occurring, you will rally and unite with others on the issue of tax increases for the poor and working class. >> >> This isn’t the Democrat Party making a scene, showing they care. This is those that are suffering the consequences of all that is taking place now and in the future. >> >> >>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 16:27, C G Estabrook wrote: >>> >>> No one is suggesting that Congress is passing the tax bill merely or even primarily to distract the electorate from the wars! >>> >>> But the political establishment (deep-state/war-party/etc.) is in fact working to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., the “#Resistance” campaign). >>> >>> Neoliberal and neoconservative policies (the former and latter, respectively) are not the same, altho’ they serve the same dominant social groups. >>> >>> AWARE has primarily opposed the wars, rather than advancing ‘left’ positions in general (even if we could agree what they were). >>> >>> That’s perhaps even more important today, after the success of the political establishment over the last decade in distracting the antiwar movement. >>> >>> —CGE >>> >>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 4:26 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>> >>>> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >>>> >>>> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >>>>> >>>>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>>>> >>>>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>>>> >>>>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>>>>>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>>>>>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>>>>>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>>>>>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Their FB message: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C00e1cbe479c348052c7208d53c4748cc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481199210707632&sdata=Ez%2FbYFra4KSez0P95fcKpMuSORJqGdnAw6ZXVvM0ebw%3D&reserved=0 From cgestabrook at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 02:50:49 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 20:50:49 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: References: <1529059805.2033891.1512495610735@mail.yahoo.com> <9F9DD132-EF96-4AD4-9D50-C18F8BDBCC24@gmail.com> <2936DF33-F497-4D17-93D8-E0E44A2CE6A9@gmail.com> Message-ID: I’m sure the anarchist spirit of AWARE will mean that some members will participate. But that same spirit means that AWARE has not endorsed activities or other organizations, except by (informal) consensus. > On Dec 5, 2017, at 8:24 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > I can certainly appreciate that. > > Will AWARE give its endorsement to the rally? > > >> On Dec 5, 2017, at 17:18, C G Estabrook wrote: >> >> My spirit is willing, but my Southern blood is too thin to take 30-degree weather. >> >> לשנה הבאה בירושלים [next year in Jerusalem] perhaps. —CGE >> >> >>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 6:55 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> If wars are due to “profit incentive,” as we usually agree, its the capitalist system that is responsible, and therefore needs to be changed. >>> >>> A few people protesting wars hasn’t gotten us very far, no one is listening, in spite of their kind words thanking us. >>> >>> An increase in taxes, which will impact on social services, and the working class, must be stopped. It serves only to provide more profits to the elites conducting the wars. >>> >>> Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security are on the agenda next. More governments are brought down when the people are hungry, than wars taking place in far away nations. >>> >>> If you want to stop war, and prevent further ones from occurring, you will rally and unite with others on the issue of tax increases for the poor and working class. >>> >>> This isn’t the Democrat Party making a scene, showing they care. This is those that are suffering the consequences of all that is taking place now and in the future. >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 16:27, C G Estabrook wrote: >>>> >>>> No one is suggesting that Congress is passing the tax bill merely or even primarily to distract the electorate from the wars! >>>> >>>> But the political establishment (deep-state/war-party/etc.) is in fact working to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., the “#Resistance” campaign). >>>> >>>> Neoliberal and neoconservative policies (the former and latter, respectively) are not the same, altho’ they serve the same dominant social groups. >>>> >>>> AWARE has primarily opposed the wars, rather than advancing ‘left’ positions in general (even if we could agree what they were). >>>> >>>> That’s perhaps even more important today, after the success of the political establishment over the last decade in distracting the antiwar movement. >>>> >>>> —CGE >>>> >>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 4:26 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >>>>> >>>>> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >>>>>> >>>>>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>>>>> >>>>>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>>>>> >>>>>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>>>>>>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>>>>>>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>>>>>>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>>>>>>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Their FB message: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C00e1cbe479c348052c7208d53c4748cc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481199210707632&sdata=Ez%2FbYFra4KSez0P95fcKpMuSORJqGdnAw6ZXVvM0ebw%3D&reserved=0 > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Dec 6 03:27:32 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 03:27:32 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally date change. Message-ID: The rally at the County Courthouse in Urbana has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. More info, to come later. From kmedina67 at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 04:50:24 2017 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (kmedina67) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 22:50:24 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday Message-ID: <5a277713.18896b0a.51c55.5419@mx.google.com> Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this.  I will be there.  I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there.  Pace e bene,- Karen Medina  From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM To: C G Estabrook Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant.   I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin.  Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting.   I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE  On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram wrote: What about AWARE endorsing the rally?  On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green wrote: I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning.On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram wrote:   I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker.If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA?Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP.  Please see below Joel’s message:  "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging Their FB message: Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States.  We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead!    -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Dec 6 12:38:41 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 12:38:41 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: <5a277713.18896b0a.51c55.5419@mx.google.com> References: <5a277713.18896b0a.51c55.5419@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Thank you, Karen The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 > wrote: Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. I will be there. I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. Pace e bene, - Karen Medina From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM To: C G Estabrook Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: What about AWARE endorsing the rally? On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green > wrote: I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram > wrote: I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. Please see below Joel’s message: "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging Their FB message: Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Dec 6 12:42:48 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 12:42:48 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: References: <5a277713.18896b0a.51c55.5419@mx.google.com> Message-ID: This “anti-tax" rally is not being done in the name of anarchism, but as a coalition of groups on the left, coming together in common cause for justice. On Dec 6, 2017, at 04:38, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: Thank you, Karen The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 > wrote: Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. I will be there. I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. Pace e bene, - Karen Medina From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM To: C G Estabrook Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: What about AWARE endorsing the rally? On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green > wrote: I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram > wrote: I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. Please see below Joel’s message: "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging Their FB message: Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb825cc5a46ad4749c62008d53ca65aec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481607543370368&sdata=Pdg3Af86H6SWZsoBUGcTpxYpUtatHtFYnmGi6h0mgOY%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From naiman at justforeignpolicy.org Wed Dec 6 12:42:59 2017 From: naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (Robert Naiman) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 06:42:59 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: References: <5a277713.18896b0a.51c55.5419@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I have to admit that my sympathy is more with Carl in this dispute. On the one hand, all good people should support all good things and oppose all bad things, no matter what, right? If someone hands me a petition saying, oppose the execution of X, I sign it. I don't bother to scrutinize the details. I oppose the death penalty no matter what. I oppose it for the innocent, and I oppose it for the guilty. So what difference does it make if the person is innocent or guilty? I'm going to sign the petition anyway. On the other hand, nobody should be under any illusions that if anti-war, anti-Empire people in the U.S. spend energy and resources supporting the justice causes that other people are focused on, that will necessarily make them more likely in the future to support anti-war, anti-Empire justice causes. It might work like that in a normal country. But in the United States, since the McCarthy period, the liberals have been indoctrinated not to help us. So, do the right thing, but don't be under any illusions that your solidarity will be reciprocated. === Robert Naiman Policy Director Just Foreign Policy www.justforeignpolicy.org naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (202) 448-2898 x1 Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 Robert Naiman Policy Director Just Foreign Policy www.justforeignpolicy.org naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (202) 448-2898 x1 Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > Thank you, Karen > > The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. > > > On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 wrote: > > Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. > > I will be there. > > I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only > from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and > preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and > sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. > > Pace e bene, > - Karen Medina > > > *From:* Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com ] > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM > *To:* C G Estabrook > *Cc:* David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; > Mildred O'brien > *Subject:* Re: Tax Rally Saturday > > > > The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is > another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The > fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the > fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is > irrelevant. > > > > I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in > their coffin. > > > > > > Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. > > > > I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a > bit removed from an anti-war focus. > > > > The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war > movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) > > > > So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried > to do for 16 years. —CGE > > > > > > On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram wrote: > > > > What about AWARE endorsing the rally? > > > > On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green wrote: > > > > I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related > to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence > at the indoor market on Saturday morning. > > On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram < > karenaram at hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or > anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting > AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups > referred to below, and send a speaker. > > If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of > AWARE on this topic. > > David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be > representing the DSA? > > Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. > > > > Please see below Joel’s message: > > > > "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse > in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if > we think we have enough people.” > > "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic > Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a > couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to > co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " > > "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging > > > > Their FB message: > > > > Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate > that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten > years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger > automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public > education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. > With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively > increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. > > > > We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and > they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. > This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. > We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that > there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Dec 6 12:56:47 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 12:56:47 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: References: <5a277713.18896b0a.51c55.5419@mx.google.com> Message-ID: No kidding Bob, I’m under no illusion that our solidarity will be reciprocated. In the nearly five years I’ve been involved with AWARE, attending others programs, rally’s, demos, etc. I’ve never seen, almost never, others join AWARE in our demos, protests, or events against war, that includes you. However, that is not why I urge AWARE to attend and endorse this anti-tax rally. That is not why I urge everyone to attend. I do it because: 1) It’s the Right Thing to do. 2) Everyone should be opposing the tax increase being imposed upon all, but the super wealthy. We know, social services such as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, come next. 3) Ending war, means changing the “system of government,” not just new elections, perhaps the “tax issue” will forward that happening, perhaps not. 4) I hope you’ll join us. On Dec 6, 2017, at 04:42, Robert Naiman > wrote: I have to admit that my sympathy is more with Carl in this dispute. On the one hand, all good people should support all good things and oppose all bad things, no matter what, right? If someone hands me a petition saying, oppose the execution of X, I sign it. I don't bother to scrutinize the details. I oppose the death penalty no matter what. I oppose it for the innocent, and I oppose it for the guilty. So what difference does it make if the person is innocent or guilty? I'm going to sign the petition anyway. On the other hand, nobody should be under any illusions that if anti-war, anti-Empire people in the U.S. spend energy and resources supporting the justice causes that other people are focused on, that will necessarily make them more likely in the future to support anti-war, anti-Empire justice causes. It might work like that in a normal country. But in the United States, since the McCarthy period, the liberals have been indoctrinated not to help us. So, do the right thing, but don't be under any illusions that your solidarity will be reciprocated. === Robert Naiman Policy Director Just Foreign Policy www.justforeignpolicy.org naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (202) 448-2898 x1 Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 Robert Naiman Policy Director Just Foreign Policy www.justforeignpolicy.org naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (202) 448-2898 x1 Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: Thank you, Karen The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 > wrote: Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. I will be there. I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. Pace e bene, - Karen Medina From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM To: C G Estabrook Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: What about AWARE endorsing the rally? On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green > wrote: I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram > wrote: I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. Please see below Joel’s message: "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging Their FB message: Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Wed Dec 6 13:24:03 2017 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 07:24:03 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: References: <5a277713.18896b0a.51c55.5419@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I’m not quite sure what "in the name of anarchism” might mean, but I was using the term as description of how AWARE has worked since its founding - as a casual, voluntary association of opponents of US wars, with a minimum of organizational structure, fluid boundaries, and working (if at all) by informal consensus. (The experiments in the US a generation ago of organization by formal consensus seem to have largely disappeared: >.) Anarchism as a sentiment does contrast with the organizational (and political) theories of several soi-disant Left sects in the US today - theories descended from Lenin's democratic centralism.; it seems to me a preferable model. Unfortunately, ‘anarchism’ today has come to be identified with (e.g.) ‘antifa,’ which is far from - even a contradiction of - the anarchist tradition. See >. —CGE > On Dec 6, 2017, at 6:42 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > This “anti-tax" rally is not being done in the name of anarchism, but as a coalition of groups on the left, coming together in common cause for justice. > > >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 04:38, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> >> Thank you, Karen >> >> The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. >> >> >>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 > wrote: >>> >>> Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. >>> >>> I will be there. >>> >>> I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. >>> >>> Pace e bene, >>> - Karen Medina >>> >>> >>> From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com ] >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM >>> To: C G Estabrook >>> Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien >>> Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday >>> >>> >>> >>> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >>> >>> >>> >>> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >>> >>> >>> >>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>> >>> >>> >>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>> >>> >>> >>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>> >>> >>> >>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>> >>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>> >>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>> >>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>> >>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>> >>> >>> >>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>> >>> >>> >>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>> >>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>> >>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>> >>> >>> >>> Their FB message: >>> >>> >>> >>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>> >>> >>> >>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb825cc5a46ad4749c62008d53ca65aec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481607543370368&sdata=Pdg3Af86H6SWZsoBUGcTpxYpUtatHtFYnmGi6h0mgOY%3D&reserved=0 > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Wed Dec 6 13:27:41 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 07:27:41 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: References: <5a277713.18896b0a.51c55.5419@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <003601d36e95$fece1ee0$fc6a5ca0$@comcast.net> All very good points Karen. Not to mention that members of an organization like AWARE need to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message can be communicated face to face and grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations and how endless war and empire is one of the root causes of most of our domestic problems. I am sorry to say that AWARE does not have a very good reputation in the community currently because of its past refusal to find common cause with others. And I am NOT talking about the democrats. Mohamed must go to the mountain and one should NOT expect the mountain to come to Mohamed. David J. From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Karen Aram via Peace-discuss Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 6:57 AM To: Robert Naiman Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday No kidding Bob, I’m under no illusion that our solidarity will be reciprocated. In the nearly five years I’ve been involved with AWARE, attending others programs, rally’s, demos, etc. I’ve never seen, almost never, others join AWARE in our demos, protests, or events against war, that includes you. However, that is not why I urge AWARE to attend and endorse this anti-tax rally. That is not why I urge everyone to attend. I do it because: 1) It’s the Right Thing to do. 2) Everyone should be opposing the tax increase being imposed upon all, but the super wealthy. We know, social services such as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, come next. 3) Ending war, means changing the “system of government,” not just new elections, perhaps the “tax issue” will forward that happening, perhaps not. 4) I hope you’ll join us. On Dec 6, 2017, at 04:42, Robert Naiman wrote: I have to admit that my sympathy is more with Carl in this dispute. On the one hand, all good people should support all good things and oppose all bad things, no matter what, right? If someone hands me a petition saying, oppose the execution of X, I sign it. I don't bother to scrutinize the details. I oppose the death penalty no matter what. I oppose it for the innocent, and I oppose it for the guilty. So what difference does it make if the person is innocent or guilty? I'm going to sign the petition anyway. On the other hand, nobody should be under any illusions that if anti-war, anti-Empire people in the U.S. spend energy and resources supporting the justice causes that other people are focused on, that will necessarily make them more likely in the future to support anti-war, anti-Empire justice causes. It might work like that in a normal country. But in the United States, since the McCarthy period, the liberals have been indoctrinated not to help us. So, do the right thing, but don't be under any illusions that your solidarity will be reciprocated. === Robert Naiman Policy Director Just Foreign Policy www.justforeignpolicy.org naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (202) 448-2898 x1 Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 Robert Naiman Policy Director Just Foreign Policy www.justforeignpolicy.org naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (202) 448-2898 x1 Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: Thank you, Karen The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 wrote: Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. I will be there. I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. Pace e bene, - Karen Medina From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM To: C G Estabrook Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram wrote: What about AWARE endorsing the rally? On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green wrote: I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram wrote: I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. Please see below Joel’s message: "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging Their FB message: Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Wed Dec 6 14:22:47 2017 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 08:22:47 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: References: <5a277713.18896b0a.51c55.5419@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <46182A5B-297B-4293-9EC4-7EAFA8D583B1@illinois.edu> I don’t think there’s a clear-cut ‘dispute’ in this conversation, but I do think Bob’s example of opposition to the death penalty is correct. Strangely, there’s been a further fractioning of the always-amorphous Left in the US in recent months - up to and including what seem to me to be unwarranted attacks on some social critics said to be supporting 'red-brown alliance.’ In this situation, labels are more a hindrance than help. Instead of clearly summarizing a political position, they engender opposition. I think it a mistake to say, “I won’t work with you because you’re a liberal/leftist/anarchist/libertarian/communist/trotskyist/etc." - at least until you’ve found out how your interlocutors understand those labels. To do otherwise is to put the hoarse voice before Descartes - who said, "The entire method consists in the order and arrangement of the things to which the mind’s eye must turn so that we can discover some truth” (sorry). In my case, the description of my politics that I adopted from Chomsky 40 years ago - “libertarian socialism (anarchism) - a critique of Leninism from the Left” - is only confusing today, in part because ‘libertarianism’ - a 19th century term that meant anti-authoritatianism has come to mean practically its opposite - unrestrained capitalism - today (but only in America). In the case of AWARE, I think there’s value in concentrating on trying to understand and talk about US wars - particularly given the increasingly sophisticated strategies designed to prevent Americans from seeing and understanding what their government is doing. Distraction is easy, and encouraged; we should resist it, even when it comes in the form of other good causes. The only even partial successes in US politics in my lifetime - Johnson's social legislation (civil rights, healthcare) and the ending of Kennedy’s Southeast Asian war - have come as a result of popular demand. That’s what we should be encouraging, by assaulting the propaganda carapace, even more effective today. —CGE > On Dec 6, 2017, at 6:42 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss wrote: > > I have to admit that my sympathy is more with Carl in this dispute. > > On the one hand, all good people should support all good things and oppose all bad things, no matter what, right? If someone hands me a petition saying, oppose the execution of X, I sign it. I don't bother to scrutinize the details. I oppose the death penalty no matter what. I oppose it for the innocent, and I oppose it for the guilty. So what difference does it make if the person is innocent or guilty? I'm going to sign the petition anyway. > > On the other hand, nobody should be under any illusions that if anti-war, anti-Empire people in the U.S. spend energy and resources supporting the justice causes that other people are focused on, that will necessarily make them more likely in the future to support anti-war, anti-Empire justice causes. It might work like that in a normal country. But in the United States, since the McCarthy period, the liberals have been indoctrinated not to help us. So, do the right thing, but don't be under any illusions that your solidarity will be reciprocated. > > === > > Robert Naiman > Policy Director > Just Foreign Policy > www.justforeignpolicy.org > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org > (202) 448-2898 x1 > > Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen > https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 > > > Robert Naiman > Policy Director > Just Foreign Policy > www.justforeignpolicy.org > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org > (202) 448-2898 x1 > > Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen > https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 > > > > On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: > Thank you, Karen > > The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. > > >> On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 > wrote: >> >> Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. >> >> I will be there. >> >> I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. >> >> Pace e bene, >> - Karen Medina >> >> >> From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com ] >> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM >> To: C G Estabrook >> Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien >> Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday >> >> >> >> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >> >> >> >> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >> >> >> >> >> >> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >> >> >> >> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >> >> >> >> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >> >> >> >> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >> >> >> >> >> >> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: >> >> >> >> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >> >> >> >> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green > wrote: >> >> >> >> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >> >> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >> >> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >> >> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >> >> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >> >> >> >> Please see below Joel’s message: >> >> >> >> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >> >> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >> >> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >> >> >> >> Their FB message: >> >> >> >> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >> >> >> >> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuartnlevy at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 15:35:50 2017 From: stuartnlevy at gmail.com (Stuart Levy) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 09:35:50 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: References: <5a277713.18896b0a.51c55.5419@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <8e988b1d-7957-b53a-c899-67b71611d7e8@gmail.com> Absolutely, it's the right thing to do.   Hugely regressive tax cuts - combined with ever-increasing war spending - are MLK's gigantic suction tube in action. AWARE has not made a name for itself supporting other groups' work in this town.   I think that has been to our detriment.    I intend to be there at the tax rally.    And even though some of us from AWARE will be there, I won't be disappointed if no one joins AWARE, or if other groups don't join in future events with us, because of it.   Karen, as you say, this is the right thing to do. On 12/06/2017 06:56 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > No kidding Bob, I’m under no illusion that our solidarity will be > reciprocated. In the nearly five years I’ve been involved with AWARE, > attending others programs, rally’s, demos, etc. I’ve never seen, > almost never, others join AWARE in our demos, protests, or events > against war, that includes you.  > > However, that is not why I urge AWARE to attend and endorse this > anti-tax rally. That is not why I urge everyone to attend. > > I do it because:  > > 1) It’s the Right Thing to do.  > > 2) Everyone should be opposing the tax increase being imposed upon > all, but the super wealthy. We know, social services such as Medicare, > Medicaid, and Social Security, come next.  > > 3) Ending war, means changing the “system of government,” not just new > elections, perhaps the “tax issue” will forward that happening, > perhaps not. > > 4) I hope you’ll join us. > > >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 04:42, Robert Naiman > > wrote: >> >> I have to admit that my sympathy is more with Carl in this dispute.  >> >> On the one hand, all good people should support all good things and >> oppose all bad things, no matter what, right? If someone hands me a >> petition saying, oppose the execution of X, I sign it. I don't bother >> to scrutinize the details. I oppose the death penalty no matter what. >> I oppose it for the innocent, and I oppose it for the guilty. So what >> difference does it make if the person is innocent or guilty? I'm >> going to sign the petition anyway.  >> >> On the other hand, nobody should be under any illusions that if >> anti-war, anti-Empire people in the U.S. spend energy and resources >> supporting the justice causes that other people are focused on, that >> will necessarily make them more likely in the future to support >> anti-war, anti-Empire justice causes. It might work like that in a >> normal country. But in the United States, since the McCarthy period, >> the liberals have been indoctrinated not to help us. So, do the right >> thing, but don't be under any illusions that your solidarity will be >> reciprocated.  >> >> === >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >> https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 >> >> >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >> https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss >> > > wrote: >> >> Thank you, Karen >> >> The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. >> >> >>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 >> > wrote: >>> >>> Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this.  >>> >>> I will be there.  >>> >>> I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire >>> but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great >>> hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift >>> of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there.  >>> >>> Pace e bene, >>> - Karen Medina  >>> >>> >>> *From:*Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com] >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM >>> *To:* C G Estabrook >>> *Cc:* David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE >>> Medina; Mildred O'brien >>> *Subject:* Re: Tax Rally Saturday >>> >>>   >>> >>> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war >>> movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the >>> American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted >>> against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did >>> nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is >>> irrelevant.  __ >>> >>>   >>> >>> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, >>> another nail in their coffin. >>> >>>   >>> >>>   >>> >>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting.  __ >>> >>>   >>> >>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax >>> bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>> >>>   >>> >>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract >>> the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>> >>>   >>> >>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as >>> we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>> >>>   >>> >>>   >>> >>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>>   >>> >>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>> >>>   >>> >>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>>   >>> >>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an >>> outdoor event related to this particular issue on >>> such a cold day, especially given our presence at >>> the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>> >>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ >>> ‎AM, Karen Aram >> > wrote: >>> >>>   >>> >>>   >>> >>> I received this message today from Joel of one of >>> the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met >>> with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor >>> their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the >>> other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>> >>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend >>> he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic.  >>> >>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but >>> will likely be representing the DSA? >>> >>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a >>> problem targeting the GOP.  >>> >>>   >>> >>> Please see below Joel’s message:  >>> >>>   >>> >>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at >>> the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to >>> have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we >>> think we have enough people.” >>> >>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition >>> to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist >>> Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple >>> of them are active in helping to organize it. Would >>> AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a >>> speaker? " >>> >>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, >>> with this messaging >>> >>>   >>> >>> Their FB message: >>> >>>   >>> >>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their >>> tax bill through the Senate that would >>> *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 >>> trillion over ten years - the largest tax >>> increase in US history. The bill would also >>> trigger automatic cuts to medicare and >>> social security, further devastate public >>> education, and potentially triple or >>> quadruple taxes on graduate students. With >>> $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this >>> rip-off will massively increase economic and >>> racial inequality in the United States. >>> >>>    >>> >>> We've written and called our representatives >>> to oppose the bill, and they've shown that >>> they truly don't care. So we're not asking >>> any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join >>> nationwide protests by rallying to fight >>> back. We won't accept having bread taken out >>> of our mouths. Join us and show that there >>> will be no peace until this vicious bill is >>> dead! >>> >>>   >>> >>>   >>> >>>   >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Wed Dec 6 17:11:07 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 17:11:07 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: * Jerusalem * Can the Palestinians Launch a "Legal Intifadah"? References: <5a2822a4f0c8_1cce63fc10a7c75941765458c@ip-10-0-0-142.mail> Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 11:09 AM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: FW: * Jerusalem * Can the Palestinians Launch a "Legal Intifadah"? FRANCIS BOYLE, fboyle at illinois.edu Boyle, professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law, served as legal adviser to the PLO. His books include the Palestinian Right of Return under International Law. He said today: "Trump's move is a symbolic but still critical step in Israeli designs to control not just Jerusalem, but all of historic Palestine. The Palestinian leadership needs to deal with this threat by all available legal means, including what I call a legal intifadah. The U.S. has prevented full Palestinian membership at the United Nations. The PLO could remedy this by using the Uniting for Peace mechanism, which would mean a vote on the issue in the General Assembly and not the Security Council where the U.S. government has a veto. "No member state of the United Nations organization has ever been destroyed or eliminated. Some of them have broken off into constituent units but they have never been extinguished. Israel would like all of Palestine, the West Bank, East Jerusalem -- without the Palestinians. A legal strategy dealing with this threat is needed." See an interview with Boyle elaborating on legal strategies. Also see by Sam Husseini "Questioning Ashrawi on Palestinian U.N. Bid: Will You Go to the General Assembly? Is this a PA Ploy?" Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Institute for Public Accuracy via ActionNetwork.org [mailto:accuracy at accuracy.org] Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 11:02 AM To: francis.a.boyle at gmail.com Subject: * Jerusalem * Can the Palestinians Launch a "Legal Intifadah"? * Jerusalem * Can the Palestinians Launch a "Legal Intifadah"? Trump is expected to state that the U.S. recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel in a 1:00 ET speech Wednesday. JOHN QUIGLEY, quigley.2 at osu.edu Professor emeritus of international law at Ohio State University, Quigley's books include The Statehood of Palestine: International Law in the Middle East Conflict and The International Diplomacy of Israel's Founders: Deception at the United Nations in the Quest for Palestine (both Cambridge University Press). He said today: "Under the Jerusalem Embassy Act, the president must move the U.S. embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem unless he affirms every six months that moving the embassy conflicts with the security interests of the United States. Last June Trump gave such a waiver, thus relieving himself of the obligation to move the embassy. He is expected to give a waiver again [this month]. But this time he is hinting that he will make a statement that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. This would be a break from the view of the international community since 1947 that the status of Jerusalem is not resolved. It would further erode the U.S. position as a negotiator for Israeli-Palestinian peace, since the status of Jerusalem is one of the issues to be decided in Israeli-Palestinian negotiations." FRANCIS BOYLE, fboyle at illinois.edu Boyle, professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law, served as legal adviser to the PLO. His books include the Palestinian Right of Return under International Law. He said today: "Trump's move is a symbolic but still critical step in Israeli designs to control not just Jerusalem, but all of historic Palestine. The Palestinian leadership needs to deal with this threat by all available legal means, including what I call a legal intifadah. The U.S. has prevented full Palestinian membership at the United Nations. The PLO could remedy this by using the Uniting for Peace mechanism, which would mean a vote on the issue in the General Assembly and not the Security Council where the U.S. government has a veto. "No member state of the United Nations organization has ever been destroyed or eliminated. Some of them have broken off into constituent units but they have never been extinguished. Israel would like all of Palestine, the West Bank, East Jerusalem -- without the Palestinians. A legal strategy dealing with this threat is needed." See an interview with Boyle elaborating on legal strategies. Also see by Sam Husseini "Questioning Ashrawi on Palestinian U.N. Bid: Will You Go to the General Assembly? Is this a PA Ploy?" For more information, contact at the Institute for Public Accuracy: Sam Husseini, (202) 421-6858, David Zupan, (541) 484-9167 December 6, 2017 Institute for Public Accuracy 980 National Press Building, Washington, D.C. 20045 (202) 347-0020 * accuracy.org * ipa at accuracy.org [Action Network] Sent via Action Network, a free online toolset anyone can use to organize. Click here to sign up and get started building an email list and creating online actions today. Action Network is an open platform that empowers individuals and groups to organize for progressive causes. We encourage responsible activism, and do not support using the platform to take unlawful or other improper action. We do not control or endorse the conduct of users and make no representations of any kind about them. . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Wed Dec 6 17:11:07 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 17:11:07 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: * Jerusalem * Can the Palestinians Launch a "Legal Intifadah"? References: <5a2822a4f0c8_1cce63fc10a7c75941765458c@ip-10-0-0-142.mail> Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 11:09 AM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: FW: * Jerusalem * Can the Palestinians Launch a "Legal Intifadah"? FRANCIS BOYLE, fboyle at illinois.edu Boyle, professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law, served as legal adviser to the PLO. His books include the Palestinian Right of Return under International Law. He said today: "Trump's move is a symbolic but still critical step in Israeli designs to control not just Jerusalem, but all of historic Palestine. The Palestinian leadership needs to deal with this threat by all available legal means, including what I call a legal intifadah. The U.S. has prevented full Palestinian membership at the United Nations. The PLO could remedy this by using the Uniting for Peace mechanism, which would mean a vote on the issue in the General Assembly and not the Security Council where the U.S. government has a veto. "No member state of the United Nations organization has ever been destroyed or eliminated. Some of them have broken off into constituent units but they have never been extinguished. Israel would like all of Palestine, the West Bank, East Jerusalem -- without the Palestinians. A legal strategy dealing with this threat is needed." See an interview with Boyle elaborating on legal strategies. Also see by Sam Husseini "Questioning Ashrawi on Palestinian U.N. Bid: Will You Go to the General Assembly? Is this a PA Ploy?" Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Institute for Public Accuracy via ActionNetwork.org [mailto:accuracy at accuracy.org] Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 11:02 AM To: francis.a.boyle at gmail.com Subject: * Jerusalem * Can the Palestinians Launch a "Legal Intifadah"? * Jerusalem * Can the Palestinians Launch a "Legal Intifadah"? Trump is expected to state that the U.S. recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel in a 1:00 ET speech Wednesday. JOHN QUIGLEY, quigley.2 at osu.edu Professor emeritus of international law at Ohio State University, Quigley's books include The Statehood of Palestine: International Law in the Middle East Conflict and The International Diplomacy of Israel's Founders: Deception at the United Nations in the Quest for Palestine (both Cambridge University Press). He said today: "Under the Jerusalem Embassy Act, the president must move the U.S. embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem unless he affirms every six months that moving the embassy conflicts with the security interests of the United States. Last June Trump gave such a waiver, thus relieving himself of the obligation to move the embassy. He is expected to give a waiver again [this month]. But this time he is hinting that he will make a statement that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. This would be a break from the view of the international community since 1947 that the status of Jerusalem is not resolved. It would further erode the U.S. position as a negotiator for Israeli-Palestinian peace, since the status of Jerusalem is one of the issues to be decided in Israeli-Palestinian negotiations." FRANCIS BOYLE, fboyle at illinois.edu Boyle, professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law, served as legal adviser to the PLO. His books include the Palestinian Right of Return under International Law. He said today: "Trump's move is a symbolic but still critical step in Israeli designs to control not just Jerusalem, but all of historic Palestine. The Palestinian leadership needs to deal with this threat by all available legal means, including what I call a legal intifadah. The U.S. has prevented full Palestinian membership at the United Nations. The PLO could remedy this by using the Uniting for Peace mechanism, which would mean a vote on the issue in the General Assembly and not the Security Council where the U.S. government has a veto. "No member state of the United Nations organization has ever been destroyed or eliminated. Some of them have broken off into constituent units but they have never been extinguished. Israel would like all of Palestine, the West Bank, East Jerusalem -- without the Palestinians. A legal strategy dealing with this threat is needed." See an interview with Boyle elaborating on legal strategies. Also see by Sam Husseini "Questioning Ashrawi on Palestinian U.N. Bid: Will You Go to the General Assembly? Is this a PA Ploy?" For more information, contact at the Institute for Public Accuracy: Sam Husseini, (202) 421-6858, David Zupan, (541) 484-9167 December 6, 2017 Institute for Public Accuracy 980 National Press Building, Washington, D.C. 20045 (202) 347-0020 * accuracy.org * ipa at accuracy.org [Action Network] Sent via Action Network, a free online toolset anyone can use to organize. Click here to sign up and get started building an email list and creating online actions today. Action Network is an open platform that empowers individuals and groups to organize for progressive causes. We encourage responsible activism, and do not support using the platform to take unlawful or other improper action. We do not control or endorse the conduct of users and make no representations of any kind about them. . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Dec 6 17:27:53 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 17:27:53 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Very important listen. The Black Agenda Report, related to elections..... Message-ID: https://blackagendareport.com/cooperation-jacksons-kali-akuno-elections-dont-necessarily-change-damn-thing -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Dec 6 18:49:30 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:49:30 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Anti-Tax Rally by a coalition of groups Message-ID: Congress is rushing through a new tax bill that will increase taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years, the largest tax increase in US history. The bill will trigger automatic cuts to Medicare and Social Security, further devastate public education, and may include a massive tax increase on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this bill will transform the economy for generations to come, leading to even more economic and racial inequality. We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, but they've shown us that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. On Saturday 12/16 at 2pm, we will join nationwide protests against the tax bill by rallying outside the federal courthouse in Urbana at 201 S. Vine St. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this cruel bill is dead! [cid:B77DAC60-9679-42AA-B939-D7A7A1C5AD35] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 24784983_10111838794053634_4833162405232928674_o.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 105280 bytes Desc: 24784983_10111838794053634_4833162405232928674_o.jpg URL: From kmedina67 at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 20:24:35 2017 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (Karen Medina) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 14:24:35 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Rally against the tax bills Saturday, December 16, 2017; 2pm; Federal Courthouse Message-ID: The rally against the tax bills will be Saturday, December 16, 2017; 2pm, -> at the Federal Courthouse in Urbana, Illinois / 201 S Vine St (aka the corner of Vine and Elm in Urbana). -> a rally with speakers, and a street march >> Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that >> would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - >> the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger >> automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public >> education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. >> With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively >> increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >> >> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and >> they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This >> Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We >> won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that >> there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! From cgestabrook at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 20:26:58 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 14:26:58 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: <003601d36e95$fece1ee0$fc6a5ca0$@comcast.net> References: <5a277713.18896b0a.51c55.5419@mx.google.com> <003601d36e95$fece1ee0$fc6a5ca0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2AEE968F-C7B7-4416-ACF1-660CCB594ABC@gmail.com> David— “Intersectionality” [ = “Why don’t all of us discriminated-against people get together?”] is the desperate dead-end of identity politics, which is itself the cover for neoliberalism. Once class politics are abandoned, discrimination rather than exploitation becomes the only explanation for inequality. But we’re not killing people in the Mideast for white supremacy (or any other form of discrimination). We’re doing it for the profits of the American economic elite. It’s the job of the US antiwar movement to tell that truth and shame the ruling class devil. Confusion with other good causes - like anti-discrimination - serves to obscure it. Regards, Carl > On Dec 6, 2017, at 7:27 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: > > All very good points Karen. > > Not to mention that members of an organization like AWARE need to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message can be communicated face to face and grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations and how endless war and empire is one of the root causes of most of our domestic problems. > I am sorry to say that AWARE does not have a very good reputation in the community currently because of its past refusal to find common cause with others. And I am NOT talking about the democrats. > Mohamed must go to the mountain and one should NOT expect the mountain to come to Mohamed. > > David J. > > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 6:57 AM > To: Robert Naiman > Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday > > No kidding Bob, I’m under no illusion that our solidarity will be reciprocated. In the nearly five years I’ve been involved with AWARE, attending others programs, rally’s, demos, etc. I’ve never seen, almost never, others join AWARE in our demos, protests, or events against war, that includes you. > > However, that is not why I urge AWARE to attend and endorse this anti-tax rally. That is not why I urge everyone to attend. > > I do it because: > > 1) It’s the Right Thing to do. > > 2) Everyone should be opposing the tax increase being imposed upon all, but the super wealthy. We know, social services such as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, come next. > > 3) Ending war, means changing the “system of government,” not just new elections, perhaps the “tax issue” will forward that happening, perhaps not. > > 4) I hope you’ll join us. > > >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 04:42, Robert Naiman wrote: >> >> I have to admit that my sympathy is more with Carl in this dispute. >> >> On the one hand, all good people should support all good things and oppose all bad things, no matter what, right? If someone hands me a petition saying, oppose the execution of X, I sign it. I don't bother to scrutinize the details. I oppose the death penalty no matter what. I oppose it for the innocent, and I oppose it for the guilty. So what difference does it make if the person is innocent or guilty? I'm going to sign the petition anyway. >> >> On the other hand, nobody should be under any illusions that if anti-war, anti-Empire people in the U.S. spend energy and resources supporting the justice causes that other people are focused on, that will necessarily make them more likely in the future to support anti-war, anti-Empire justice causes. It might work like that in a normal country. But in the United States, since the McCarthy period, the liberals have been indoctrinated not to help us. So, do the right thing, but don't be under any illusions that your solidarity will be reciprocated. >> >> === >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >> https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 >> >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >> https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> Thank you, Karen >> >> The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. >> >> >>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 wrote: >>> >>> Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. >>> >>> I will be there. >>> >>> I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. >>> >>> Pace e bene, >>> - Karen Medina >>> >>> >>> From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM >>> To: C G Estabrook >>> Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien >>> Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday >>> >>> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >>> >>> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >>> >>>> >>>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >>>> >>>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>>> >>>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>>> >>>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>>>>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>>>>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>>>>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>>>>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>>>>> >>>>>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>>>>> >>>>>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>>>>> >>>>>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>>>>> >>>>>> Their FB message: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Dec 6 20:59:35 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 20:59:35 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: <2AEE968F-C7B7-4416-ACF1-660CCB594ABC@gmail.com> References: <5a277713.18896b0a.51c55.5419@mx.google.com> <003601d36e95$fece1ee0$fc6a5ca0$@comcast.net> <2AEE968F-C7B7-4416-ACF1-660CCB594ABC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Carl, what the bloody blazes, does this email to David, have to do with the rally, other than to obfuscate its occurrence and intent. You’re turning this into an argument over “intersectionality?” The new tax bill has everything to do with “class” it has nothing to do with racism. > On Dec 6, 2017, at 12:26, C G Estabrook wrote: > > David— > > “Intersectionality” [ = “Why don’t all of us discriminated-against people get together?”] is the desperate dead-end of identity politics, which is itself the cover for neoliberalism. Once class politics are abandoned, discrimination rather than exploitation becomes the only explanation for inequality. > > But we’re not killing people in the Mideast for white supremacy (or any other form of discrimination). We’re doing it for the profits of the American economic elite. It’s the job of the US antiwar movement to tell that truth and shame the ruling class devil. Confusion with other good causes - like anti-discrimination - serves to obscure it. > > Regards, Carl > > >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 7:27 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> All very good points Karen. >> >> Not to mention that members of an organization like AWARE need to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message can be communicated face to face and grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations and how endless war and empire is one of the root causes of most of our domestic problems. >> I am sorry to say that AWARE does not have a very good reputation in the community currently because of its past refusal to find common cause with others. And I am NOT talking about the democrats. >> Mohamed must go to the mountain and one should NOT expect the mountain to come to Mohamed. >> >> David J. >> >> >> From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Karen Aram via Peace-discuss >> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 6:57 AM >> To: Robert Naiman >> Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday >> >> No kidding Bob, I’m under no illusion that our solidarity will be reciprocated. In the nearly five years I’ve been involved with AWARE, attending others programs, rally’s, demos, etc. I’ve never seen, almost never, others join AWARE in our demos, protests, or events against war, that includes you. >> >> However, that is not why I urge AWARE to attend and endorse this anti-tax rally. That is not why I urge everyone to attend. >> >> I do it because: >> >> 1) It’s the Right Thing to do. >> >> 2) Everyone should be opposing the tax increase being imposed upon all, but the super wealthy. We know, social services such as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, come next. >> >> 3) Ending war, means changing the “system of government,” not just new elections, perhaps the “tax issue” will forward that happening, perhaps not. >> >> 4) I hope you’ll join us. >> >> >>> On Dec 6, 2017, at 04:42, Robert Naiman wrote: >>> >>> I have to admit that my sympathy is more with Carl in this dispute. >>> >>> On the one hand, all good people should support all good things and oppose all bad things, no matter what, right? If someone hands me a petition saying, oppose the execution of X, I sign it. I don't bother to scrutinize the details. I oppose the death penalty no matter what. I oppose it for the innocent, and I oppose it for the guilty. So what difference does it make if the person is innocent or guilty? I'm going to sign the petition anyway. >>> >>> On the other hand, nobody should be under any illusions that if anti-war, anti-Empire people in the U.S. spend energy and resources supporting the justice causes that other people are focused on, that will necessarily make them more likely in the future to support anti-war, anti-Empire justice causes. It might work like that in a normal country. But in the United States, since the McCarthy period, the liberals have been indoctrinated not to help us. So, do the right thing, but don't be under any illusions that your solidarity will be reciprocated. >>> >>> === >>> >>> Robert Naiman >>> Policy Director >>> Just Foreign Policy >>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.justforeignpolicy.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=ZtoCRF6BQ9WWb6WHTHzta%2F4%2BaHIowJkKjshfcFiLuTg%3D&reserved=0 >>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >>> (202) 448-2898 x1 >>> >>> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpetitions.moveon.org%2Fsign%2Fforce-vote-on-saudi-war%3Fr_by%3D1135580&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=j52wPsEYVtIr7hGoTgSdcOIJyXkb1LU7op52nk1ikUg%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> >>> Robert Naiman >>> Policy Director >>> Just Foreign Policy >>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.justforeignpolicy.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=ZtoCRF6BQ9WWb6WHTHzta%2F4%2BaHIowJkKjshfcFiLuTg%3D&reserved=0 >>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >>> (202) 448-2898 x1 >>> >>> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpetitions.moveon.org%2Fsign%2Fforce-vote-on-saudi-war%3Fr_by%3D1135580&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=j52wPsEYVtIr7hGoTgSdcOIJyXkb1LU7op52nk1ikUg%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> Thank you, Karen >>> >>> The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 wrote: >>>> >>>> Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. >>>> >>>> I will be there. >>>> >>>> I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. >>>> >>>> Pace e bene, >>>> - Karen Medina >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com] >>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM >>>> To: C G Estabrook >>>> Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien >>>> Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday >>>> >>>> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >>>> >>>> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >>>>> >>>>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>>>> >>>>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>>>> >>>>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>>>>>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>>>>>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>>>>>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>>>>>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Their FB message: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=wq5G8%2FcsCxBJ%2FjWCmX1PM%2FXnKddOhrp0Bp21IIS%2FLnw%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=wq5G8%2FcsCxBJ%2FjWCmX1PM%2FXnKddOhrp0Bp21IIS%2FLnw%3D&reserved=0 > From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Dec 6 21:05:57 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 21:05:57 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Anti-tax rally up dated info. Message-ID: [cid:A616360E-8597-45F4-96EC-84FDF7F6C22B] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 24784983_10111838794053634_4833162405232928674_o.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 105280 bytes Desc: 24784983_10111838794053634_4833162405232928674_o.jpg URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Dec 6 21:06:42 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 21:06:42 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Rally against the tax bills Saturday, December 16, 2017; 2pm; Federal Courthouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Karen M., the rally is at 2:00pm on the 16th. The statement below is what the groups were originally working with, I included it in the content as information related to their intent, but it maybe misleading to some as the rally is not as they stated in the original draft. > On Dec 6, 2017, at 12:24, Karen Medina via Peace-discuss wrote: > > The rally against the tax bills will be Saturday, December 16, 2017; 2pm, > -> at the Federal Courthouse in Urbana, Illinois / 201 S Vine St (aka > the corner of Vine and Elm in Urbana). > -> a rally with speakers, and a street march > >>> Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that >>> would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - >>> the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger >>> automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public >>> education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. >>> With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively >>> increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>> >>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and >>> they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This >>> Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We >>> won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that >>> there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0c15b480734d4b9c69a208d53ce76f71%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481887058497664&sdata=dtzbTqSzhCsIlMs2HLPCbU7V411jrur7nJj2JedToJY%3D&reserved=0 From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Dec 6 21:10:44 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 21:10:44 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Data related to the Tax Plan from the Intercept Message-ID: 247 Photo: Saul Loeb/AFP/Getty Images THE GOP PLAN IS THE BIGGEST TAX INCREASE IN AMERICAN HISTORY, BY FAR [https://cdn01.theintercept.com/wp-uploads/sites/1/2017/05/ryan-grimm-1494271844-crop-1495557756.jpg] Ryan Grim December 1 2017, 10:07 a.m. THE TAX BILL moving its way through Congress is routinely referred to as a $1.5 trillion tax cut. And, in some ways, that’s true: On net, it would reduce the amount of taxes collected by the Treasury by about $1.5 trillion over 10 years. But that figure masks the eye-popping scale and audacity of the GOP’s rushed restructuring of the economy. Most immediately, the plan will take a large chunk out of state and local revenue that isn’t factored into that total. But more broadly, the bill cuts taxes by a full $6 trillion over a decade. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., said Friday afternoon that Senate Republicans have the votes to pass the plan, which gets referred to as only a $1.5 trillion cut because it raises $4.5 trillion in taxes elsewhere. But the key question is: Who gets a tax hike and who gets a tax cut? Put simply, the bulk of the tax cut is going toward the rich, while the tax increases go to everybody else. And so the bill, properly described, is two things: the largest tax cut — and also the biggest tax increase — in American history. Republicans have spent years describing the Affordable Care Act as the largest tax increase in U.S. history, ignoring the fact that the tax increases were balanced out by subsidies to pay for health coverage. In that respect, the ACA was a significant transfer of wealth from the top to the middle and bottom, which earned it the ire of the GOP. But all told, it raised less than $1 trillion in taxes over 10 years to pay for all that. The relative stinginess, in fact, is what fueled its unpopularity, as premiums and deductibles remained too high. But what Republicans lambasted as a historic tax hike represents just one-fifth of the tax increase of the new GOP bill. Where’s that money going? The Tax Policy Center estimated that about 80 percent of the benefits of the tax plan will go to the top 1 percent, who will enjoy the following elements of the tax cut: A full $1.5 trillion alone is going to slash the corporate tax rate. CEOs have said repeatedly they plan to pocket that money rather than invest it or give workers higher wages. The alternative minimum tax, paid almost exclusively by the rich, is also eliminated. That’s a $700 billion giveaway. Another $150 billion goes to repealing the estate tax, which currently exempts the first $11 million of the deceased’s estate, so nobody even remotely middle class pays it. The repeal benefits so few people you can practically list them out. More than $200 billion in cuts goes to a provision that allows a greater deduction for dividends on foreign earnings. That’s not for you. Roughly $600 billion goes to reducing taxes on “pass-throughs” and other businesses not set up as corporations, which law firms, lobby shops, and doctors’ offices often benefit from. Poor and middle-class people do not tend to set themselves up as pass-throughs. Under current law, many tax credits phase out at low-income thresholds. The GOP plan changes that by raising the threshold so richer people can also claim the credit. That provision alone is, by definition, a $200 billion tax cut for the wealthy. Individual and family tax rates are cut by about $1 trillion, and some regular people will indeed see some of that money as a tax cut — but not much. As the New York Times noted, by 2027, people making between $40,000 and $50,000 would see a combined increase of $5.3 billion in taxes. Where would that money go? Folks earning more than $1 million would see their taxes collectively cut by $5.8 billion a year. The list above brings the total well close to $5 trillion in tax cuts almost exclusively for the wealthy. The last major element of the bill, the doubling of the standard deduction, would benefit a broader range of people, but it comes at the expense of states, cities, and towns. Where does the money to pay for all of this come from? While Obamacare was a transfer of wealth from the top to the bottom, this bill sends money back the other way. Even some of the ways the plan “raises” taxes on the rich wind up being a tax cut. Some $300 billion is raised by allowing companies who stashed profits offshore to repatriate it at a much lower rate. That repatriated cash will go straight to dividends for shareholders and stock buybacks — but it gets counted as a tax increase, which then allows the GOP to give an equal $300 billion cut on the other side of the ledger. It’s neat how that works. The bill raises $1.6 trillion by repealing the personal exemption everybody gets on their tax returns. Getting rid of it across the board is extraordinarily regressive, since it gives the same benefit to the likes of Jared Kushner as it gives to people who have much less money than he does, so they’re hit much harder. It raises another $1.3 trillion by going after deductions for state and local taxes, mortgage interest, charitable contributions, interest on student loans, medical expenses, teachers’ out-of-pocket expenses for paper and pencils for students, and a bunch of other nickel-and-diming of the middle class. No change drawer in the car, couch cushion, or plastic piggy bank is going untouched in the hunt for money to pay for the tax cut. (The state and local deduction is effectively a subsidy for state and local spending on things like schools, roads, and police departments. Removing that will pressure states and cities to cut spending, so future teacher layoffs at your neighborhood school will be used to pay for the tax cuts, but because that happens at the state and local level, it isn’t factored into the Congressional Budget Office or Joint Committee on Taxation analyses.) The plan gradually raises $128 billion in taxes by changing the way inflation is tabulated, so that your taxes slowly creep up over the years as the brackets come down. And then, of course, the plan adds about $1.5 trillion to the debt over 10 years. That gets you most of the way to $6 trillion, with a handful of smaller tax hikes thrown in, some of which won’t obviously hurt the middle class. The domestic production deduction, a $96 billion boondoggle, is repealed, for instance, and $54 billion is saved by ending the credit for testing cures for rare diseases. House Speaker Paul Ryan, R-Wis., went on NPR on Friday morning to try to defend the largest tax hike in American history. “What does it say that — in practice, according to independent analyses, I mean, you do have winners and losers. Not everybody gains — businesses gain, people with large estates to leave to their heirs gain, high-income people gain — but a lot of middle-income people do not gain in terms of money,” NPR’s Steve Inskeep said. “I disagree with that. The average tax cut for a middle-class family is going to be $1,182,” Ryan responded. Inskeep pushed back. “Lily Batchelder of New York University took some numbers from the Joint Committee of Taxation, bipartisan part of Congress as you know very well, and concluded that something like 100 million households in this country under the House bill, and even more under the Senate bill, would either get no tax cut or would get a tax increase,” Inskeep said. “Does that sound right to you?” It didn’t sound right to Ryan. “No, it doesn’t sound right unless it’s a person that’s not paying taxes already,” he said. “I think some people are cherry-picking statistics.” Sign up here to get Ryan Grim’s email newsletter. Top photo: U.S. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., speaks about tax reform on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C., Nov. 30, 2017. We depend on the support of readers like you to help keep our nonprofit newsroom strong and independent. Join Us -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 21:52:04 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 15:52:04 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: References: <5a277713.18896b0a.51c55.5419@mx.google.com> <003601d36e95$fece1ee0$fc6a5ca0$@comcast.net> <2AEE968F-C7B7-4416-ACF1-660CCB594ABC@gmail.com> Message-ID: The tax rally is a good cause, and it’s worthwhile for people to turn out for a good cause. I was talking about a narrower issue, David’s suggestion of AWARE's "past refusal to find common cause with others.” AWARE is an anti-war organization, and there have been substantial attempts, honest and dishonest, to turn aside the antiwar movement. The Obama campaign is the most significant and successful of of the latter; identity politics, with its notion of intersectionality, is the best example of the former. One result is the frequent articles entitled something like, “Whatever happened to the antiwar movement?” I think David’s exhortation that "AWARE needs to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message ... grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations” suggests the hazard of continued dilution of antiwar sentiment into fashionable ‘intersectionality.' > On Dec 6, 2017, at 2:59 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Carl, what the bloody blazes, does this email to David, have to do with the rally, other than to obfuscate its occurrence and intent. You’re turning this into an argument over “intersectionality?” > > The new tax bill has everything to do with “class” it has nothing to do with racism. > >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 12:26, C G Estabrook wrote: >> >> David— >> >> “Intersectionality” [ = “Why don’t all of us discriminated-against people get together?”] is the desperate dead-end of identity politics, which is itself the cover for neoliberalism. Once class politics are abandoned, discrimination rather than exploitation becomes the only explanation for inequality. >> >> But we’re not killing people in the Mideast for white supremacy (or any other form of discrimination). We’re doing it for the profits of the American economic elite. It’s the job of the US antiwar movement to tell that truth and shame the ruling class devil. Confusion with other good causes - like anti-discrimination - serves to obscure it. >> >> Regards, Carl >> >> >>> On Dec 6, 2017, at 7:27 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> All very good points Karen. >>> >>> Not to mention that members of an organization like AWARE need to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message can be communicated face to face and grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations and how endless war and empire is one of the root causes of most of our domestic problems. >>> I am sorry to say that AWARE does not have a very good reputation in the community currently because of its past refusal to find common cause with others. And I am NOT talking about the democrats. >>> Mohamed must go to the mountain and one should NOT expect the mountain to come to Mohamed. >>> >>> David J. >>> >>> >>> From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Karen Aram via Peace-discuss >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 6:57 AM >>> To: Robert Naiman >>> Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday >>> >>> No kidding Bob, I’m under no illusion that our solidarity will be reciprocated. In the nearly five years I’ve been involved with AWARE, attending others programs, rally’s, demos, etc. I’ve never seen, almost never, others join AWARE in our demos, protests, or events against war, that includes you. >>> >>> However, that is not why I urge AWARE to attend and endorse this anti-tax rally. That is not why I urge everyone to attend. >>> >>> I do it because: >>> >>> 1) It’s the Right Thing to do. >>> >>> 2) Everyone should be opposing the tax increase being imposed upon all, but the super wealthy. We know, social services such as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, come next. >>> >>> 3) Ending war, means changing the “system of government,” not just new elections, perhaps the “tax issue” will forward that happening, perhaps not. >>> >>> 4) I hope you’ll join us. >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 6, 2017, at 04:42, Robert Naiman wrote: >>>> >>>> I have to admit that my sympathy is more with Carl in this dispute. >>>> >>>> On the one hand, all good people should support all good things and oppose all bad things, no matter what, right? If someone hands me a petition saying, oppose the execution of X, I sign it. I don't bother to scrutinize the details. I oppose the death penalty no matter what. I oppose it for the innocent, and I oppose it for the guilty. So what difference does it make if the person is innocent or guilty? I'm going to sign the petition anyway. >>>> >>>> On the other hand, nobody should be under any illusions that if anti-war, anti-Empire people in the U.S. spend energy and resources supporting the justice causes that other people are focused on, that will necessarily make them more likely in the future to support anti-war, anti-Empire justice causes. It might work like that in a normal country. But in the United States, since the McCarthy period, the liberals have been indoctrinated not to help us. So, do the right thing, but don't be under any illusions that your solidarity will be reciprocated. >>>> >>>> === >>>> >>>> Robert Naiman >>>> Policy Director >>>> Just Foreign Policy >>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.justforeignpolicy.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=ZtoCRF6BQ9WWb6WHTHzta%2F4%2BaHIowJkKjshfcFiLuTg%3D&reserved=0 >>>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >>>> (202) 448-2898 x1 >>>> >>>> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpetitions.moveon.org%2Fsign%2Fforce-vote-on-saudi-war%3Fr_by%3D1135580&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=j52wPsEYVtIr7hGoTgSdcOIJyXkb1LU7op52nk1ikUg%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>>> >>>> Robert Naiman >>>> Policy Director >>>> Just Foreign Policy >>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.justforeignpolicy.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=ZtoCRF6BQ9WWb6WHTHzta%2F4%2BaHIowJkKjshfcFiLuTg%3D&reserved=0 >>>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >>>> (202) 448-2898 x1 >>>> >>>> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpetitions.moveon.org%2Fsign%2Fforce-vote-on-saudi-war%3Fr_by%3D1135580&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=j52wPsEYVtIr7hGoTgSdcOIJyXkb1LU7op52nk1ikUg%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> Thank you, Karen >>>> >>>> The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. >>>>> >>>>> I will be there. >>>>> >>>>> I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. >>>>> >>>>> Pace e bene, >>>>> - Karen Medina >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM >>>>> To: C G Estabrook >>>>> Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien >>>>> Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday >>>>> >>>>> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >>>>> >>>>> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >>>>>> >>>>>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>>>>> >>>>>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>>>>> >>>>>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>>>>>>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>>>>>>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>>>>>>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>>>>>>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Their FB message: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=wq5G8%2FcsCxBJ%2FjWCmX1PM%2FXnKddOhrp0Bp21IIS%2FLnw%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=wq5G8%2FcsCxBJ%2FjWCmX1PM%2FXnKddOhrp0Bp21IIS%2FLnw%3D&reserved=0 >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Dec 6 23:18:37 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 23:18:37 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: References: <5a277713.18896b0a.51c55.5419@mx.google.com> <003601d36e95$fece1ee0$fc6a5ca0$@comcast.net> <2AEE968F-C7B7-4416-ACF1-660CCB594ABC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Okay, thank you for explaining. I was wondering. I do however agree with David, on a case by case basis, on Issues that we support. As you have often said, “all things are connected,” well, maybe not all, but certainly many. > On Dec 6, 2017, at 13:52, C G Estabrook wrote: > > The tax rally is a good cause, and it’s worthwhile for people to turn out for a good cause. > > I was talking about a narrower issue, David’s suggestion of AWARE's "past refusal to find common cause with others.” > > AWARE is an anti-war organization, and there have been substantial attempts, honest and dishonest, to turn aside the antiwar movement. The Obama campaign is the most significant and successful of of the latter; identity politics, with its notion of intersectionality, is the best example of the former. One result is the frequent articles entitled something like, “Whatever happened to the antiwar movement?” > > I think David’s exhortation that "AWARE needs to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message ... grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations” suggests the hazard of continued dilution of antiwar sentiment into fashionable ‘intersectionality.' > > > >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 2:59 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> Carl, what the bloody blazes, does this email to David, have to do with the rally, other than to obfuscate its occurrence and intent. You’re turning this into an argument over “intersectionality?” >> >> The new tax bill has everything to do with “class” it has nothing to do with racism. >> >>> On Dec 6, 2017, at 12:26, C G Estabrook wrote: >>> >>> David— >>> >>> “Intersectionality” [ = “Why don’t all of us discriminated-against people get together?”] is the desperate dead-end of identity politics, which is itself the cover for neoliberalism. Once class politics are abandoned, discrimination rather than exploitation becomes the only explanation for inequality. >>> >>> But we’re not killing people in the Mideast for white supremacy (or any other form of discrimination). We’re doing it for the profits of the American economic elite. It’s the job of the US antiwar movement to tell that truth and shame the ruling class devil. Confusion with other good causes - like anti-discrimination - serves to obscure it. >>> >>> Regards, Carl >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 6, 2017, at 7:27 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> All very good points Karen. >>>> >>>> Not to mention that members of an organization like AWARE need to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message can be communicated face to face and grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations and how endless war and empire is one of the root causes of most of our domestic problems. >>>> I am sorry to say that AWARE does not have a very good reputation in the community currently because of its past refusal to find common cause with others. And I am NOT talking about the democrats. >>>> Mohamed must go to the mountain and one should NOT expect the mountain to come to Mohamed. >>>> >>>> David J. >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Karen Aram via Peace-discuss >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 6:57 AM >>>> To: Robert Naiman >>>> Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday >>>> >>>> No kidding Bob, I’m under no illusion that our solidarity will be reciprocated. In the nearly five years I’ve been involved with AWARE, attending others programs, rally’s, demos, etc. I’ve never seen, almost never, others join AWARE in our demos, protests, or events against war, that includes you. >>>> >>>> However, that is not why I urge AWARE to attend and endorse this anti-tax rally. That is not why I urge everyone to attend. >>>> >>>> I do it because: >>>> >>>> 1) It’s the Right Thing to do. >>>> >>>> 2) Everyone should be opposing the tax increase being imposed upon all, but the super wealthy. We know, social services such as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, come next. >>>> >>>> 3) Ending war, means changing the “system of government,” not just new elections, perhaps the “tax issue” will forward that happening, perhaps not. >>>> >>>> 4) I hope you’ll join us. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 6, 2017, at 04:42, Robert Naiman wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I have to admit that my sympathy is more with Carl in this dispute. >>>>> >>>>> On the one hand, all good people should support all good things and oppose all bad things, no matter what, right? If someone hands me a petition saying, oppose the execution of X, I sign it. I don't bother to scrutinize the details. I oppose the death penalty no matter what. I oppose it for the innocent, and I oppose it for the guilty. So what difference does it make if the person is innocent or guilty? I'm going to sign the petition anyway. >>>>> >>>>> On the other hand, nobody should be under any illusions that if anti-war, anti-Empire people in the U.S. spend energy and resources supporting the justice causes that other people are focused on, that will necessarily make them more likely in the future to support anti-war, anti-Empire justice causes. It might work like that in a normal country. But in the United States, since the McCarthy period, the liberals have been indoctrinated not to help us. So, do the right thing, but don't be under any illusions that your solidarity will be reciprocated. >>>>> >>>>> === >>>>> >>>>> Robert Naiman >>>>> Policy Director >>>>> Just Foreign Policy >>>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.justforeignpolicy.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=ZtoCRF6BQ9WWb6WHTHzta%2F4%2BaHIowJkKjshfcFiLuTg%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >>>>> (202) 448-2898 x1 >>>>> >>>>> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >>>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpetitions.moveon.org%2Fsign%2Fforce-vote-on-saudi-war%3Fr_by%3D1135580&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=j52wPsEYVtIr7hGoTgSdcOIJyXkb1LU7op52nk1ikUg%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Robert Naiman >>>>> Policy Director >>>>> Just Foreign Policy >>>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.justforeignpolicy.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=ZtoCRF6BQ9WWb6WHTHzta%2F4%2BaHIowJkKjshfcFiLuTg%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >>>>> (202) 448-2898 x1 >>>>> >>>>> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >>>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpetitions.moveon.org%2Fsign%2Fforce-vote-on-saudi-war%3Fr_by%3D1135580&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=j52wPsEYVtIr7hGoTgSdcOIJyXkb1LU7op52nk1ikUg%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>> Thank you, Karen >>>>> >>>>> The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. >>>>>> >>>>>> I will be there. >>>>>> >>>>>> I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. >>>>>> >>>>>> Pace e bene, >>>>>> - Karen Medina >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM >>>>>> To: C G Estabrook >>>>>> Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien >>>>>> Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday >>>>>> >>>>>> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >>>>>> >>>>>> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>>>>>>>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>>>>>>>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>>>>>>>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>>>>>>>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Their FB message: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=wq5G8%2FcsCxBJ%2FjWCmX1PM%2FXnKddOhrp0Bp21IIS%2FLnw%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=wq5G8%2FcsCxBJ%2FjWCmX1PM%2FXnKddOhrp0Bp21IIS%2FLnw%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C549c088c1ce74ffdcfcf08d53cf39c3f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481939346600927&sdata=TgwVqxuxC1X8eHMo9YNviIKIkxp%2BbrY7Nty%2BVGoBCSA%3D&reserved=0 From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Wed Dec 6 23:28:31 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 17:28:31 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: References: <5a277713.18896b0a.51c55.5419@mx.google.com> <003601d36e95$fece1ee0$fc6a5ca0$@comcast.net> <2AEE968F-C7B7-4416-ACF1-660CCB594ABC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <014a01d36ee9$eddceb30$c996c190$@comcast.net> It's NOT about " dilution" Carl, It's about communicating and showing / emphasizing the connections between policies like the tax bill that benefits the 1 % and the insatiable feeding of the war machine. Something that you yourself have talked about on numerous occasions. It's also about interacting with people in the community. And YES, it IS about intersectionality Carl, CLASS BASED intersectionality. This tax bill is as class based as it gets. David J. -----Original Message----- From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 3:52 PM To: Karen Aram Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday The tax rally is a good cause, and it’s worthwhile for people to turn out for a good cause. I was talking about a narrower issue, David’s suggestion of AWARE's "past refusal to find common cause with others.” AWARE is an anti-war organization, and there have been substantial attempts, honest and dishonest, to turn aside the antiwar movement. The Obama campaign is the most significant and successful of of the latter; identity politics, with its notion of intersectionality, is the best example of the former. One result is the frequent articles entitled something like, “Whatever happened to the antiwar movement?” I think David’s exhortation that "AWARE needs to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message ... grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations” suggests the hazard of continued dilution of antiwar sentiment into fashionable ‘intersectionality.' > On Dec 6, 2017, at 2:59 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Carl, what the bloody blazes, does this email to David, have to do with the rally, other than to obfuscate its occurrence and intent. You’re turning this into an argument over “intersectionality?” > > The new tax bill has everything to do with “class” it has nothing to do with racism. > >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 12:26, C G Estabrook wrote: >> >> David— >> >> “Intersectionality” [ = “Why don’t all of us discriminated-against people get together?”] is the desperate dead-end of identity politics, which is itself the cover for neoliberalism. Once class politics are abandoned, discrimination rather than exploitation becomes the only explanation for inequality. >> >> But we’re not killing people in the Mideast for white supremacy (or any other form of discrimination). We’re doing it for the profits of the American economic elite. It’s the job of the US antiwar movement to tell that truth and shame the ruling class devil. Confusion with other good causes - like anti-discrimination - serves to obscure it. >> >> Regards, Carl >> >> >>> On Dec 6, 2017, at 7:27 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> All very good points Karen. >>> >>> Not to mention that members of an organization like AWARE need to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message can be communicated face to face and grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations and how endless war and empire is one of the root causes of most of our domestic problems. >>> I am sorry to say that AWARE does not have a very good reputation in the community currently because of its past refusal to find common cause with others. And I am NOT talking about the democrats. >>> Mohamed must go to the mountain and one should NOT expect the mountain to come to Mohamed. >>> >>> David J. >>> >>> >>> From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Karen Aram via Peace-discuss >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 6:57 AM >>> To: Robert Naiman >>> Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday >>> >>> No kidding Bob, I’m under no illusion that our solidarity will be reciprocated. In the nearly five years I’ve been involved with AWARE, attending others programs, rally’s, demos, etc. I’ve never seen, almost never, others join AWARE in our demos, protests, or events against war, that includes you. >>> >>> However, that is not why I urge AWARE to attend and endorse this anti-tax rally. That is not why I urge everyone to attend. >>> >>> I do it because: >>> >>> 1) It’s the Right Thing to do. >>> >>> 2) Everyone should be opposing the tax increase being imposed upon all, but the super wealthy. We know, social services such as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, come next. >>> >>> 3) Ending war, means changing the “system of government,” not just new elections, perhaps the “tax issue” will forward that happening, perhaps not. >>> >>> 4) I hope you’ll join us. >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 6, 2017, at 04:42, Robert Naiman wrote: >>>> >>>> I have to admit that my sympathy is more with Carl in this dispute. >>>> >>>> On the one hand, all good people should support all good things and oppose all bad things, no matter what, right? If someone hands me a petition saying, oppose the execution of X, I sign it. I don't bother to scrutinize the details. I oppose the death penalty no matter what. I oppose it for the innocent, and I oppose it for the guilty. So what difference does it make if the person is innocent or guilty? I'm going to sign the petition anyway. >>>> >>>> On the other hand, nobody should be under any illusions that if anti-war, anti-Empire people in the U.S. spend energy and resources supporting the justice causes that other people are focused on, that will necessarily make them more likely in the future to support anti-war, anti-Empire justice causes. It might work like that in a normal country. But in the United States, since the McCarthy period, the liberals have been indoctrinated not to help us. So, do the right thing, but don't be under any illusions that your solidarity will be reciprocated. >>>> >>>> === >>>> >>>> Robert Naiman >>>> Policy Director >>>> Just Foreign Policy >>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.justforeignpolicy.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=ZtoCRF6BQ9WWb6WHTHzta%2F4%2BaHIowJkKjshfcFiLuTg%3D&reserved=0 >>>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >>>> (202) 448-2898 x1 >>>> >>>> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpetitions.moveon.org%2Fsign%2Fforce-vote-on-saudi-war%3Fr_by%3D1135580&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=j52wPsEYVtIr7hGoTgSdcOIJyXkb1LU7op52nk1ikUg%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>>> >>>> Robert Naiman >>>> Policy Director >>>> Just Foreign Policy >>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.justforeignpolicy.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=ZtoCRF6BQ9WWb6WHTHzta%2F4%2BaHIowJkKjshfcFiLuTg%3D&reserved=0 >>>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >>>> (202) 448-2898 x1 >>>> >>>> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpetitions.moveon.org%2Fsign%2Fforce-vote-on-saudi-war%3Fr_by%3D1135580&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=j52wPsEYVtIr7hGoTgSdcOIJyXkb1LU7op52nk1ikUg%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> Thank you, Karen >>>> >>>> The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. >>>>> >>>>> I will be there. >>>>> >>>>> I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. >>>>> >>>>> Pace e bene, >>>>> - Karen Medina >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM >>>>> To: C G Estabrook >>>>> Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien >>>>> Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday >>>>> >>>>> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >>>>> >>>>> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >>>>>> >>>>>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>>>>> >>>>>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>>>>> >>>>>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>>>>>>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>>>>>>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>>>>>>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>>>>>>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Their FB message: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=wq5G8%2FcsCxBJ%2FjWCmX1PM%2FXnKddOhrp0Bp21IIS%2FLnw%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=wq5G8%2FcsCxBJ%2FjWCmX1PM%2FXnKddOhrp0Bp21IIS%2FLnw%3D&reserved=0 >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 01:47:10 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 19:47:10 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: <014a01d36ee9$eddceb30$c996c190$@comcast.net> References: <5a277713.18896b0a.51c55.5419@mx.google.com> <003601d36e95$fece1ee0$fc6a5ca0$@comcast.net> <2AEE968F-C7B7-4416-ACF1-660CCB594ABC@gmail.com> <014a01d36ee9$eddceb30$c996c190$@comcast.net> Message-ID: David-- “Intersectionality" was coined to make up for the abandonment (in the 1970s) of a social democratic politics (from the New Deal on) that had attempted to blunt exploitation. But intersectionality meant an alliance amongst all groups discriminated against, on the basis of their discrimination (not their class position). "Discrimination is neoliberalism’s theory of inequality. Even poor whites have started to buy it — a large number appear to think anti-white bias is their real problem! Obviously, they’re wrong, but when, as Barbara and Karen Fields point out, the language of victimization has become so impoverished that it consists of nothing but discrimination, you go with what you’ve got. A new left politics will need to change that. Instead of a more complicated understanding of identity — of race, sex, and intersectionality (that opiate of the professional managerial class) — we need a more profound understanding of exploitation.” [W. B. Michaels] A "more profound understanding of exploitation" is something you've talked about - rather than the concerns of the "professional, managerial class.” —CGE > On Dec 6, 2017, at 5:28 PM, David Johnson wrote: > > It's NOT about " dilution" Carl, > > It's about communicating and showing / emphasizing the connections between policies like the tax bill that benefits the 1 % and the insatiable feeding of the war machine. > Something that you yourself have talked about on numerous occasions. > It's also about interacting with people in the community. > And YES, it IS about intersectionality Carl, CLASS BASED intersectionality. This tax bill is as class based as it gets. > > David J. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 3:52 PM > To: Karen Aram > Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday > > The tax rally is a good cause, and it’s worthwhile for people to turn out for a good cause. > > I was talking about a narrower issue, David’s suggestion of AWARE's "past refusal to find common cause with others.” > > AWARE is an anti-war organization, and there have been substantial attempts, honest and dishonest, to turn aside the antiwar movement. The Obama campaign is the most significant and successful of of the latter; identity politics, with its notion of intersectionality, is the best example of the former. One result is the frequent articles entitled something like, “Whatever happened to the antiwar movement?” > > I think David’s exhortation that "AWARE needs to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message ... grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations” suggests the hazard of continued dilution of antiwar sentiment into fashionable ‘intersectionality.' > > > >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 2:59 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> Carl, what the bloody blazes, does this email to David, have to do with the rally, other than to obfuscate its occurrence and intent. You’re turning this into an argument over “intersectionality?” >> >> The new tax bill has everything to do with “class” it has nothing to do with racism. >> >>> On Dec 6, 2017, at 12:26, C G Estabrook wrote: >>> >>> David— >>> >>> “Intersectionality” [ = “Why don’t all of us discriminated-against people get together?”] is the desperate dead-end of identity politics, which is itself the cover for neoliberalism. Once class politics are abandoned, discrimination rather than exploitation becomes the only explanation for inequality. >>> >>> But we’re not killing people in the Mideast for white supremacy (or any other form of discrimination). We’re doing it for the profits of the American economic elite. It’s the job of the US antiwar movement to tell that truth and shame the ruling class devil. Confusion with other good causes - like anti-discrimination - serves to obscure it. >>> >>> Regards, Carl >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 6, 2017, at 7:27 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> All very good points Karen. >>>> >>>> Not to mention that members of an organization like AWARE need to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message can be communicated face to face and grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations and how endless war and empire is one of the root causes of most of our domestic problems. >>>> I am sorry to say that AWARE does not have a very good reputation in the community currently because of its past refusal to find common cause with others. And I am NOT talking about the democrats. >>>> Mohamed must go to the mountain and one should NOT expect the mountain to come to Mohamed. >>>> >>>> David J. >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Karen Aram via Peace-discuss >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 6:57 AM >>>> To: Robert Naiman >>>> Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday >>>> >>>> No kidding Bob, I’m under no illusion that our solidarity will be reciprocated. In the nearly five years I’ve been involved with AWARE, attending others programs, rally’s, demos, etc. I’ve never seen, almost never, others join AWARE in our demos, protests, or events against war, that includes you. >>>> >>>> However, that is not why I urge AWARE to attend and endorse this anti-tax rally. That is not why I urge everyone to attend. >>>> >>>> I do it because: >>>> >>>> 1) It’s the Right Thing to do. >>>> >>>> 2) Everyone should be opposing the tax increase being imposed upon all, but the super wealthy. We know, social services such as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, come next. >>>> >>>> 3) Ending war, means changing the “system of government,” not just new elections, perhaps the “tax issue” will forward that happening, perhaps not. >>>> >>>> 4) I hope you’ll join us. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 6, 2017, at 04:42, Robert Naiman wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I have to admit that my sympathy is more with Carl in this dispute. >>>>> >>>>> On the one hand, all good people should support all good things and oppose all bad things, no matter what, right? If someone hands me a petition saying, oppose the execution of X, I sign it. I don't bother to scrutinize the details. I oppose the death penalty no matter what. I oppose it for the innocent, and I oppose it for the guilty. So what difference does it make if the person is innocent or guilty? I'm going to sign the petition anyway. >>>>> >>>>> On the other hand, nobody should be under any illusions that if anti-war, anti-Empire people in the U.S. spend energy and resources supporting the justice causes that other people are focused on, that will necessarily make them more likely in the future to support anti-war, anti-Empire justice causes. It might work like that in a normal country. But in the United States, since the McCarthy period, the liberals have been indoctrinated not to help us. So, do the right thing, but don't be under any illusions that your solidarity will be reciprocated. >>>>> >>>>> === >>>>> >>>>> Robert Naiman >>>>> Policy Director >>>>> Just Foreign Policy >>>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.justforeignpolicy.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=ZtoCRF6BQ9WWb6WHTHzta%2F4%2BaHIowJkKjshfcFiLuTg%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >>>>> (202) 448-2898 x1 >>>>> >>>>> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >>>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpetitions.moveon.org%2Fsign%2Fforce-vote-on-saudi-war%3Fr_by%3D1135580&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=j52wPsEYVtIr7hGoTgSdcOIJyXkb1LU7op52nk1ikUg%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Robert Naiman >>>>> Policy Director >>>>> Just Foreign Policy >>>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.justforeignpolicy.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=ZtoCRF6BQ9WWb6WHTHzta%2F4%2BaHIowJkKjshfcFiLuTg%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >>>>> (202) 448-2898 x1 >>>>> >>>>> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >>>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpetitions.moveon.org%2Fsign%2Fforce-vote-on-saudi-war%3Fr_by%3D1135580&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=j52wPsEYVtIr7hGoTgSdcOIJyXkb1LU7op52nk1ikUg%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>> Thank you, Karen >>>>> >>>>> The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. >>>>>> >>>>>> I will be there. >>>>>> >>>>>> I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. >>>>>> >>>>>> Pace e bene, >>>>>> - Karen Medina >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM >>>>>> To: C G Estabrook >>>>>> Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien >>>>>> Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday >>>>>> >>>>>> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >>>>>> >>>>>> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>>>>>>>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>>>>>>>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>>>>>>>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>>>>>>>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Their FB message: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=wq5G8%2FcsCxBJ%2FjWCmX1PM%2FXnKddOhrp0Bp21IIS%2FLnw%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=wq5G8%2FcsCxBJ%2FjWCmX1PM%2FXnKddOhrp0Bp21IIS%2FLnw%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 02:29:53 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 20:29:53 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] L'Shana Haba'ah B'Yerushalayim In-Reply-To: <1529059805.2033891.1512495610735@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1529059805.2033891.1512495610735@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <567189EF-F8C8-44A5-8879-77732B062FC1@gmail.com> Suppose Trump has made his Jerusalem move as part of a 'deal' - a negotiation - to mollify Israel & the KSA - as a substitute for war with Iran (backed by Russia)? That would be sabre-rattling that might get both Bibi & MBS off his back. The Pentagon wants to threaten - not actually fight - Russia; they learnt their lesson in Syria. From fboyle at illinois.edu Thu Dec 7 02:50:12 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:50:12 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: 'Death Sentence': World Leaders Slam Trump Over Reckless Jerusalem Stunt - Sputnik International Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 8:48 PM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: 'Death Sentence': World Leaders Slam Trump Over Reckless Jerusalem Stunt - Sputnik International https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201712071059769884-un-jerusalem-reax-trump-embassy/ In addition, Trump's decision will likely disrupt US relations with the Arab and Muslim community worldwide, provoking a mass uprising in the West Bank and Gaza Strip to end Israel's so-called occupation and eventually US-backed leaders in the Arab and Muslim world may face instability and an upsurge in violence from their citizens, University of Illinois Professor of International Law Francis Boyle told Sputnik. From fboyle at illinois.edu Thu Dec 7 02:50:12 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:50:12 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: 'Death Sentence': World Leaders Slam Trump Over Reckless Jerusalem Stunt - Sputnik International Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 8:48 PM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: 'Death Sentence': World Leaders Slam Trump Over Reckless Jerusalem Stunt - Sputnik International https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201712071059769884-un-jerusalem-reax-trump-embassy/ In addition, Trump's decision will likely disrupt US relations with the Arab and Muslim community worldwide, provoking a mass uprising in the West Bank and Gaza Strip to end Israel's so-called occupation and eventually US-backed leaders in the Arab and Muslim world may face instability and an upsurge in violence from their citizens, University of Illinois Professor of International Law Francis Boyle told Sputnik. From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Thu Dec 7 03:31:13 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 21:31:13 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: References: <5a277713.18896b0a.51c55.5419@mx.google.com> <003601d36e95$fece1ee0$fc6a5ca0$@comcast.net> <2AEE968F-C7B7-4416-ACF1-660CCB594ABC@gmail.com> <014a01d36ee9$eddceb30$c996c190$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <01a101d36f0b$d5745250$805cf6f0$@comcast.net> We have talked about this before Carl, There is identity politics intersectionality and then there is CLASS BASED intersectionality. David J. -----Original Message----- From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 7:47 PM To: David Johnson Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday David-- “Intersectionality" was coined to make up for the abandonment (in the 1970s) of a social democratic politics (from the New Deal on) that had attempted to blunt exploitation. But intersectionality meant an alliance amongst all groups discriminated against, on the basis of their discrimination (not their class position). "Discrimination is neoliberalism’s theory of inequality. Even poor whites have started to buy it — a large number appear to think anti-white bias is their real problem! Obviously, they’re wrong, but when, as Barbara and Karen Fields point out, the language of victimization has become so impoverished that it consists of nothing but discrimination, you go with what you’ve got. A new left politics will need to change that. Instead of a more complicated understanding of identity — of race, sex, and intersectionality (that opiate of the professional managerial class) — we need a more profound understanding of exploitation.” [W. B. Michaels] A "more profound understanding of exploitation" is something you've talked about - rather than the concerns of the "professional, managerial class.” —CGE > On Dec 6, 2017, at 5:28 PM, David Johnson wrote: > > It's NOT about " dilution" Carl, > > It's about communicating and showing / emphasizing the connections between policies like the tax bill that benefits the 1 % and the insatiable feeding of the war machine. > Something that you yourself have talked about on numerous occasions. > It's also about interacting with people in the community. > And YES, it IS about intersectionality Carl, CLASS BASED intersectionality. This tax bill is as class based as it gets. > > David J. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 3:52 PM > To: Karen Aram > Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday > > The tax rally is a good cause, and it’s worthwhile for people to turn out for a good cause. > > I was talking about a narrower issue, David’s suggestion of AWARE's "past refusal to find common cause with others.” > > AWARE is an anti-war organization, and there have been substantial attempts, honest and dishonest, to turn aside the antiwar movement. The Obama campaign is the most significant and successful of of the latter; identity politics, with its notion of intersectionality, is the best example of the former. One result is the frequent articles entitled something like, “Whatever happened to the antiwar movement?” > > I think David’s exhortation that "AWARE needs to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message ... grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations” suggests the hazard of continued dilution of antiwar sentiment into fashionable ‘intersectionality.' > > > >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 2:59 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> Carl, what the bloody blazes, does this email to David, have to do with the rally, other than to obfuscate its occurrence and intent. You’re turning this into an argument over “intersectionality?” >> >> The new tax bill has everything to do with “class” it has nothing to do with racism. >> >>> On Dec 6, 2017, at 12:26, C G Estabrook wrote: >>> >>> David— >>> >>> “Intersectionality” [ = “Why don’t all of us discriminated-against people get together?”] is the desperate dead-end of identity politics, which is itself the cover for neoliberalism. Once class politics are abandoned, discrimination rather than exploitation becomes the only explanation for inequality. >>> >>> But we’re not killing people in the Mideast for white supremacy (or any other form of discrimination). We’re doing it for the profits of the American economic elite. It’s the job of the US antiwar movement to tell that truth and shame the ruling class devil. Confusion with other good causes - like anti-discrimination - serves to obscure it. >>> >>> Regards, Carl >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 6, 2017, at 7:27 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> All very good points Karen. >>>> >>>> Not to mention that members of an organization like AWARE need to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message can be communicated face to face and grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations and how endless war and empire is one of the root causes of most of our domestic problems. >>>> I am sorry to say that AWARE does not have a very good reputation in the community currently because of its past refusal to find common cause with others. And I am NOT talking about the democrats. >>>> Mohamed must go to the mountain and one should NOT expect the mountain to come to Mohamed. >>>> >>>> David J. >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Karen Aram via Peace-discuss >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 6:57 AM >>>> To: Robert Naiman >>>> Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday >>>> >>>> No kidding Bob, I’m under no illusion that our solidarity will be reciprocated. In the nearly five years I’ve been involved with AWARE, attending others programs, rally’s, demos, etc. I’ve never seen, almost never, others join AWARE in our demos, protests, or events against war, that includes you. >>>> >>>> However, that is not why I urge AWARE to attend and endorse this anti-tax rally. That is not why I urge everyone to attend. >>>> >>>> I do it because: >>>> >>>> 1) It’s the Right Thing to do. >>>> >>>> 2) Everyone should be opposing the tax increase being imposed upon all, but the super wealthy. We know, social services such as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, come next. >>>> >>>> 3) Ending war, means changing the “system of government,” not just new elections, perhaps the “tax issue” will forward that happening, perhaps not. >>>> >>>> 4) I hope you’ll join us. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 6, 2017, at 04:42, Robert Naiman wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I have to admit that my sympathy is more with Carl in this dispute. >>>>> >>>>> On the one hand, all good people should support all good things and oppose all bad things, no matter what, right? If someone hands me a petition saying, oppose the execution of X, I sign it. I don't bother to scrutinize the details. I oppose the death penalty no matter what. I oppose it for the innocent, and I oppose it for the guilty. So what difference does it make if the person is innocent or guilty? I'm going to sign the petition anyway. >>>>> >>>>> On the other hand, nobody should be under any illusions that if anti-war, anti-Empire people in the U.S. spend energy and resources supporting the justice causes that other people are focused on, that will necessarily make them more likely in the future to support anti-war, anti-Empire justice causes. It might work like that in a normal country. But in the United States, since the McCarthy period, the liberals have been indoctrinated not to help us. So, do the right thing, but don't be under any illusions that your solidarity will be reciprocated. >>>>> >>>>> === >>>>> >>>>> Robert Naiman >>>>> Policy Director >>>>> Just Foreign Policy >>>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.justforeignpolicy.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=ZtoCRF6BQ9WWb6WHTHzta%2F4%2BaHIowJkKjshfcFiLuTg%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >>>>> (202) 448-2898 x1 >>>>> >>>>> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >>>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpetitions.moveon.org%2Fsign%2Fforce-vote-on-saudi-war%3Fr_by%3D1135580&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=j52wPsEYVtIr7hGoTgSdcOIJyXkb1LU7op52nk1ikUg%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Robert Naiman >>>>> Policy Director >>>>> Just Foreign Policy >>>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.justforeignpolicy.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=ZtoCRF6BQ9WWb6WHTHzta%2F4%2BaHIowJkKjshfcFiLuTg%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >>>>> (202) 448-2898 x1 >>>>> >>>>> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >>>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpetitions.moveon.org%2Fsign%2Fforce-vote-on-saudi-war%3Fr_by%3D1135580&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=j52wPsEYVtIr7hGoTgSdcOIJyXkb1LU7op52nk1ikUg%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>> Thank you, Karen >>>>> >>>>> The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. >>>>>> >>>>>> I will be there. >>>>>> >>>>>> I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. >>>>>> >>>>>> Pace e bene, >>>>>> - Karen Medina >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM >>>>>> To: C G Estabrook >>>>>> Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien >>>>>> Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday >>>>>> >>>>>> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >>>>>> >>>>>> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>>>>>>>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>>>>>>>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>>>>>>>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>>>>>>>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Their FB message: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=wq5G8%2FcsCxBJ%2FjWCmX1PM%2FXnKddOhrp0Bp21IIS%2FLnw%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C165ef897b7dc4893c86e08d53ce7b864%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636481888279957919&sdata=wq5G8%2FcsCxBJ%2FjWCmX1PM%2FXnKddOhrp0Bp21IIS%2FLnw%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > From moboct1 at aim.com Thu Dec 7 13:00:50 2017 From: moboct1 at aim.com (Mildred O'brien) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:00:50 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: <2AEE968F-C7B7-4416-ACF1-660CCB594ABC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <16031107536-1713-1e234@webjas-vaa132.srv.aolmail.net> Do you have to belong to an organization to participate in the Rally? Midge O'Brien -----Original Message----- From: C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss To: David Johnson Cc: peace-discuss ; Karen Aram Sent: Wed, Dec 6, 2017 2:27 pm Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday David— “Intersectionality” [ = “Why don’t all of us discriminated-against people get together?”] is the desperate dead-end of identity politics, which is itself the cover for neoliberalism. Once class politics are abandoned, discrimination rather than exploitation becomes the only explanation for inequality. But we’re not killing people in the Mideast for white supremacy (or any other form of discrimination). We’re doing it for the profits of the American economic elite. It’s the job of the US antiwar movement to tell that truth and shame the ruling class devil. Confusion with other good causes - like anti-discrimination - serves to obscure it. Regards, Carl > On Dec 6, 2017, at 7:27 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: > > All very good points Karen. > > Not to mention that members of an organization like AWARE need to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message can be communicated face to face and grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations and how endless war and empire is one of the root causes of most of our domestic problems. > I am sorry to say that AWARE does not have a very good reputation in the community currently because of its past refusal to find common cause with others. And I am NOT talking about the democrats. > Mohamed must go to the mountain and one should NOT expect the mountain to come to Mohamed. > > David J. > > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 6:57 AM > To: Robert Naiman > Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday > > No kidding Bob, I’m under no illusion that our solidarity will be reciprocated. In the nearly five years I’ve been involved with AWARE, attending others programs, rally’s, demos, etc. I’ve never seen, almost never, others join AWARE in our demos, protests, or events against war, that includes you. > > However, that is not why I urge AWARE to attend and endorse this anti-tax rally. That is not why I urge everyone to attend. > > I do it because: > > 1) It’s the Right Thing to do. > > 2) Everyone should be opposing the tax increase being imposed upon all, but the super wealthy. We know, social services such as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, come next. > > 3) Ending war, means changing the “system of government,” not just new elections, perhaps the “tax issue” will forward that happening, perhaps not. > > 4) I hope you’ll join us. > > >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 04:42, Robert Naiman wrote: >> >> I have to admit that my sympathy is more with Carl in this dispute. >> >> On the one hand, all good people should support all good things and oppose all bad things, no matter what, right? If someone hands me a petition saying, oppose the execution of X, I sign it. I don't bother to scrutinize the details. I oppose the death penalty no matter what. I oppose it for the innocent, and I oppose it for the guilty. So what difference does it make if the person is innocent or guilty? I'm going to sign the petition anyway. >> >> On the other hand, nobody should be under any illusions that if anti-war, anti-Empire people in the U.S. spend energy and resources supporting the justice causes that other people are focused on, that will necessarily make them more likely in the future to support anti-war, anti-Empire justice causes. It might work like that in a normal country. But in the United States, since the McCarthy period, the liberals have been indoctrinated not to help us. So, do the right thing, but don't be under any illusions that your solidarity will be reciprocated. >> >> === >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >> https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 >> >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >> https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> Thank you, Karen >> >> The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. >> >> >>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 wrote: >>> >>> Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. >>> >>> I will be there. >>> >>> I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. >>> >>> Pace e bene, >>> - Karen Medina >>> >>> >>> From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM >>> To: C G Estabrook >>> Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien >>> Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday >>> >>> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >>> >>> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >>> >>>> >>>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >>>> >>>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>>> >>>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>>> >>>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>>>>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>>>>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>>>>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>>>>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>>>>> >>>>>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>>>>> >>>>>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>>>>> >>>>>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>>>>> >>>>>> Their FB message: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 13:37:45 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 07:37:45 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: <16031107536-1713-1e234@webjas-vaa132.srv.aolmail.net> References: <16031107536-1713-1e234@webjas-vaa132.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: I’m sure the rally organizers would be happy to have anyone at all turn up. We’re sparring over whether AWARE should 'officially’ endorse such things, or stick to antiwar work. AWARE began as an organization concerned about the war, but threatens to become an organization concerned about the organization… —CGE > On Dec 7, 2017, at 7:00 AM, Mildred O'brien via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Do you have to belong to an organization to participate in the Rally? > > Midge O'Brien > > > -----Original Message----- > From: C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > To: David Johnson > Cc: peace-discuss ; Karen Aram > Sent: Wed, Dec 6, 2017 2:27 pm > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday > > David— “Intersectionality” [ = “Why don’t all of us discriminated-against people get together?”] is the desperate dead-end of identity politics, which is itself the cover for neoliberalism. Once class politics are abandoned, discrimination rather than exploitation becomes the only explanation for inequality. But we’re not killing people in the Mideast for white supremacy (or any other form of discrimination). We’re doing it for the profits of the American economic elite. It’s the job of the US antiwar movement to tell that truth and shame the ruling class devil. Confusion with other good causes - like anti-discrimination - serves to obscure it. Regards, Carl > On Dec 6, 2017, at 7:27 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > All very good points Karen. > > Not to mention that members of an organization like AWARE need to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message can be communicated face to face and grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations and how endless war and empire is one of the root causes of most of our domestic problems. > I am sorry to say that AWARE does not have a very good reputation in the community currently because of its past refusal to find common cause with others. And I am NOT talking about the democrats. > Mohamed must go to the mountain and one should NOT expect the mountain to come to Mohamed. > > David J. > > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net ] On Behalf Of Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 6:57 AM > To: Robert Naiman > Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday > > No kidding Bob, I’m under no illusion that our solidarity will be reciprocated. In the nearly five years I’ve been involved with AWARE, attending others programs, rally’s, demos, etc. I’ve never seen, almost never, others join AWARE in our demos, protests, or events against war, that includes you. > > However, that is not why I urge AWARE to attend and endorse this anti-tax rally. That is not why I urge everyone to attend. > > I do it because: > > 1) It’s the Right Thing to do. > > 2) Everyone should be opposing the tax increase being imposed upon all, but the super wealthy. We know, social services such as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, come next. > > 3) Ending war, means changing the “system of government,” not just new elections, perhaps the “tax issue” will forward that happening, perhaps not. > > 4) I hope you’ll join us. > > >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 04:42, Robert Naiman > wrote: >> >> I have to admit that my sympathy is more with Carl in this dispute. >> >> On the one hand, all good people should support all good things and oppose all bad things, no matter what, right? If someone hands me a petition saying, oppose the execution of X, I sign it. I don't bother to scrutinize the details. I oppose the death penalty no matter what. I oppose it for the innocent, and I oppose it for the guilty. So what difference does it make if the person is innocent or guilty? I'm going to sign the petition anyway. >> >> On the other hand, nobody should be under any illusions that if anti-war, anti-Empire people in the U.S. spend energy and resources supporting the justice causes that other people are focused on, that will necessarily make them more likely in the future to support anti-war, anti-Empire justice causes. It might work like that in a normal country. But in the United States, since the McCarthy period, the liberals have been indoctrinated not to help us. So, do the right thing, but don't be under any illusions that your solidarity will be reciprocated. >> >> === >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >> https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 >> >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >> https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> Thank you, Karen >> >> The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. >> >> >>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 > wrote: >>> >>> Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. >>> >>> I will be there. >>> >>> I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. >>> >>> Pace e bene, >>> - Karen Medina >>> >>> >>> From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com ] >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM >>> To: C G Estabrook >>> Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien >>> Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday >>> >>> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >>> >>> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >>> >>>> >>>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >>>> >>>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>>> >>>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>>> >>>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>>>>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>>>>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>>>>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>>>>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>>>>> >>>>>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>>>>> >>>>>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>>>>> >>>>>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>>>>> >>>>>> Their FB message: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 14:04:57 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:04:57 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] L'Shana Haba'ah B'Yerushalayim In-Reply-To: <567189EF-F8C8-44A5-8879-77732B062FC1@gmail.com> References: <1529059805.2033891.1512495610735@mail.yahoo.com> <567189EF-F8C8-44A5-8879-77732B062FC1@gmail.com> Message-ID: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-12-06/trumps-jerusalem-tit-tat-orders-saudis-%E2%80%98immediately%E2%80%99-end-yemen-blockade > On Dec 6, 2017, at 8:29 PM, C G Estabrook wrote: > > Suppose Trump has made his Jerusalem move as part of a 'deal' - a negotiation - to mollify Israel & the KSA - as a substitute for war with Iran (backed by Russia)? > > That would be sabre-rattling that might get both Bibi & MBS off his back. The Pentagon wants to threaten - not actually fight - Russia; they learnt their lesson in Syria. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 7 14:20:04 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 14:20:04 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: <16031107536-1713-1e234@webjas-vaa132.srv.aolmail.net> References: <16031107536-1713-1e234@webjas-vaa132.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Of course not, Midge That’s why I’m sending out the notices, I hope we can have as many people participate as possible, in spite of lousy weather. Not as a group but as individuals. David Johnson, Stuart and Karen M. have committed to being there, as well as David Enstrom of the local Green Party. Initially I was hoping for “endorsement” from AWARE, as that offer was presented to us. However, given the dialog that has taken place, I no longer want it and told the organizer I’m in contact with, that “No” forget AWARE. We may have Green Party Illinois endorsement, however, some of the data doesn’t match up with that provided by the Intercept, so until that is corrected, the Greens are on hold. On Dec 7, 2017, at 05:00, Mildred O'brien via Peace-discuss > wrote: Do you have to belong to an organization to participate in the Rally? Midge O'Brien -----Original Message----- From: C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > To: David Johnson > Cc: peace-discuss >; Karen Aram > Sent: Wed, Dec 6, 2017 2:27 pm Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday David— “Intersectionality” [ = “Why don’t all of us discriminated-against people get together?”] is the desperate dead-end of identity politics, which is itself the cover for neoliberalism. Once class politics are abandoned, discrimination rather than exploitation becomes the only explanation for inequality. But we’re not killing people in the Mideast for white supremacy (or any other form of discrimination). We’re doing it for the profits of the American economic elite. It’s the job of the US antiwar movement to tell that truth and shame the ruling class devil. Confusion with other good causes - like anti-discrimination - serves to obscure it. Regards, Carl > On Dec 6, 2017, at 7:27 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > All very good points Karen. > > Not to mention that members of an organization like AWARE need to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message can be communicated face to face and grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations and how endless war and empire is one of the root causes of most of our domestic problems. > I am sorry to say that AWARE does not have a very good reputation in the community currently because of its past refusal to find common cause with others. And I am NOT talking about the democrats. > Mohamed must go to the mountain and one should NOT expect the mountain to come to Mohamed. > > David J. > > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 6:57 AM > To: Robert Naiman > Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday > > No kidding Bob, I’m under no illusion that our solidarity will be reciprocated. In the nearly five years I’ve been involved with AWARE, attending others programs, rally’s, demos, etc. I’ve never seen, almost never, others join AWARE in our demos, protests, or events against war, that includes you. > > However, that is not why I urge AWARE to attend and endorse this anti-tax rally. That is not why I urge everyone to attend. > > I do it because: > > 1) It’s the Right Thing to do. > > 2) Everyone should be opposing the tax increase being imposed upon all, but the super wealthy. We know, social services such as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, come next. > > 3) Ending war, means changing the “system of government,” not just new elections, perhaps the “tax issue” will forward that happening, perhaps not. > > 4) I hope you’ll join us. > > >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 04:42, Robert Naiman > wrote: >> >> I have to admit that my sympathy is more with Carl in this dispute. >> >> On the one hand, all good people should support all good things and oppose all bad things, no matter what, right? If someone hands me a petition saying, oppose the execution of X, I sign it. I don't bother to scrutinize the details. I oppose the death penalty no matter what. I oppose it for the innocent, and I oppose it for the guilty. So what difference does it make if the person is innocent or guilty? I'm going to sign the petition anyway. >> >> On the other hand, nobody should be under any illusions that if anti-war, anti-Empire people in the U.S. spend energy and resources supporting the justice causes that other people are focused on, that will necessarily make them more likely in the future to support anti-war, anti-Empire justice causes. It might work like that in a normal country. But in the United States, since the McCarthy period, the liberals have been indoctrinated not to help us. So, do the right thing, but don't be under any illusions that your solidarity will be reciprocated. >> >> === >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >> https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 >> >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >> https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> Thank you, Karen >> >> The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. >> >> >>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 > wrote: >>> >>> Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. >>> >>> I will be there. >>> >>> I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. >>> >>> Pace e bene, >>> - Karen Medina >>> >>> >>> From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM >>> To: C G Estabrook >>> Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien >>> Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday >>> >>> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >>> >>> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >>> >>>> >>>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >>>> >>>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>>> >>>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>>> >>>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>>>>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>>>>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>>>>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>>>>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>>>>> >>>>>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>>>>> >>>>>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>>>>> >>>>>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>>>>> >>>>>> Their FB message: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C93b9f461d6fe421afb2008d53d72b05f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636482485149289331&sdata=2VcCzncFCbTt%2FSIX7zQY3UpVncM06lZgp5fhrB6NKHc%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 7 14:33:08 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 14:33:08 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Comprehensive article related to where we are now Message-ID: * Print * Leaflet * Feedback * Share » Conflicts within US ruling class intensify following Flynn guilty plea 7 December 2017 Over the past week, the ferocious political conflict within the ruling class in the United States has entered a new stage. In the wake of the guilty plea by Trump’s former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn on Friday, the media is again filled with discussions over possible methods for removing Trump from office. On Monday, the New York Times ran an editorial, “Yes, the President Can Obstruct Justice,” answering the claim by Trump’s lawyer that the “president cannot obstruct justice because he is the chief law enforcement officer.” Citing previous articles of impeachment drawn up against Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton, the Times argued that the precedent applies equally, if not more, to Trump. The entire framework of the Times’ argument against Trump revolves around the investigation, headed by Justice Department Special Counsel Robert Mueller, into alleged Russian involvement in the 2016 US election. In securing a guilty plea from Flynn, the Mueller probe is now targeted directly at Trump’s inner circle, including his son-in-law Jared Kushner and his son Donald Trump Jr., as well as Trump himself. In his reported call for then-FBI Director James Comey to drop the probe into Flynn earlier this year, the Timeswrites, Trump “tried to shut down an investigation into his own campaign’s ties to the Russian government’s efforts to swing the 2016 election in his favor.” The editorial echoes the language of Democratic Party Senator Diane Feinstein of California, who said in her Sunday appearance on NBC’s “Meet the Press”, “I think what we’re beginning to see is the putting together of a case of obstruction of justice.” That Mueller is moving to develop a case against Trump was indicated by news this week that he has subpoenaed Trump’s financial records with Deutsche Bank, prompting speculation that he could force Trump to resign by threatening to prosecute him over his business dealings before he came to the White House. Another possible avenue raised by Trump’s critics within the political and media establishment is the use of the 25th Amendment of the US Constitution, which allows the cabinet to remove the president if he is so impaired that he is “unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office.” Last week, conservative Washington Post columnist Jennifer Rubin reiterated her previous proposal to invoke the amendment, citing reports that Trump continues to believe that Obama was not born in the US, and that he has asserted that the voice in the “Access Hollywood” tape released during the 2016 elections was not him. If he believes such statements, Rubin wrote, it would be proof that he is “mentally and emotionally incapable of performing his duties (which require one to grasp and process reality) and it would be long past time for him to go.” It is evident that a significant faction of the ruling elite has concluded that Trump must go, in one form or another. There is not, however, an ounce of democratic or progressive content to this campaign. The conflicts in Washington are conflicts within the ruling class, pitting the Trump administration—which is increasingly relying on far-right and fascistic forces—with powerful elements of the military and intelligence apparatus with which the Democratic Party is aligned. Significantly, Democratic Congressman Al Green on Thursday moved a vote in the House of Representatives to bring articles of impeachment against Trump, which was overwhelmingly rejected by congressional Democrats and unanimously by Republicans. Unlike Mueller’s investigation, Green’s proposal was based on the president’s defense of white supremacists in Charlottesville and his re-tweeting of anti-Muslim videos previously posted by British fascists. Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi made clear that the Democrats’ votes against the measure reflected not their support for Trump, but their desire to wage their campaign on charges on Trump’s “collusion” with Russia, saying that “those [i.e., Mueller’s] inquiries should be allowed to continue.” Even as they have intensified their efforts to brand Trump a traitor and a Russian agent, the Democrats have avoided any opposition to his right-wing domestic policies. As Congress moves to pass Trump’s tax bill—a handout to the financial elite that will set the stage for major cuts to Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid—the Democrats have done nothing to oppose its passage. They have held no hearings on its contents and called no demonstrations. Rather, the Democrats’ dispute with Trump is centered on their concern that his administration has undermined the fundamental foreign policy interests of US imperialism. The reality of the United States’ geopolitical decline under Trump was made apparent by two recent events—the agreement between Russia and Egypt that allows Russia to station aircraft on Egyptian airbases, and the proclamation by German Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel that the “protective” role played by the United States over Europe “is beginning to crumble.” The witch-hunt over allegations of sexual misconduct orchestrated by media outlets affiliated with the Democratic Party, particularly the New York Times, is part of this same process. It is an effort to mobilize sections of the upper middle class behind the agenda of the financial elite and military-intelligence agencies based on a deeply anti-democratic and reactionary campaign. It is of a piece with the campaign over Russian “meddling,” which has been utilized not only to go after Trump, but to lay the framework for a regime of Internet censorship and the suppression of domestic discontent. The eruption of ferocious conflicts within the states is the expression, however, of a deeper disease, for which the ruling class has no solution. If Trump’s ruling class critics were to succeed in removing him, it would not resolve the crisis of class rule that is engulfing the United States. It would place in power a government even more firmly under the control of the military-intelligence apparatus, committed to continuing the offensive against the working class and escalating the military confrontation with Russia. An altogether different conflict is developing, between the ruling class and the working class. Three billionaires now control more wealth than half of the population in the United States. The broad mass of the population is suffering from an escalating crisis—mass indebtedness, low-wage jobs, an expanding drug epidemic, and other manifestations of social distress. The financial system, inflated through an endless infusion of cash, is teetering on the edge of another collapse, on the scale of the 2008 Wall Street meltdown, with incalculable consequences. Even as they furiously denounce each other, what all factions of the ruling class fear above all is that the crisis will prompt the political radicalization of the working class. Workers and young people seeking to oppose the Trump administration must avoid the deeply diseased and reactionary Democratic Party like the plague. As the World Socialist Web Site wrote in its June 13 perspective, “ Palace coup or class struggle: The political crisis in Washington and the strategy of the working class ,” the essential political conclusion that flows from the political situation in the US is that “the fight of the working class against Trump and all that he represents will raise ever more urgently the necessity of a political mass movement, independent of and opposed to both the Republicans and the Democrats, against the capitalist system and its state. This objective tendency of social development must be developed as a conscious strategy of working class struggle.” The Socialist Equality Party is fighting to build such a movement, based on the socialist program of expropriating the wealth of the financial oligarchy, the reorganization of society on a socialist and egalitarian basis. We call on all our readers to make the decision to join and build the SEP . Andre Damon WSWS.ORG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 14:43:44 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:43:44 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: References: <16031107536-1713-1e234@webjas-vaa132.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: How would AWARE go about an endorsement? Vote on an email list? Consensus at a meeting? Or just AWARE members showing up? > On Dec 7, 2017, at 8:20 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Of course not, Midge > > That’s why I’m sending out the notices, I hope we can have as many people participate as possible, in spite of lousy weather. Not as a group but as individuals. David Johnson, Stuart and Karen M. have committed to being there, as well as David Enstrom of the local Green Party. > > Initially I was hoping for “endorsement” from AWARE, as that offer was presented to us. However, given the dialog that has taken place, I no longer want it and told the organizer I’m in contact with, that “No” forget AWARE. > > We may have Green Party Illinois endorsement, however, some of the data doesn’t match up with that provided by the Intercept, so until that is corrected, the Greens are on hold. > > >> On Dec 7, 2017, at 05:00, Mildred O'brien via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> >> Do you have to belong to an organization to participate in the Rally? >> >> Midge O'Brien >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > >> To: David Johnson > >> Cc: peace-discuss >; Karen Aram > >> Sent: Wed, Dec 6, 2017 2:27 pm >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday >> >> David— “Intersectionality” [ = “Why don’t all of us discriminated-against people get together?”] is the desperate dead-end of identity politics, which is itself the cover for neoliberalism. Once class politics are abandoned, discrimination rather than exploitation becomes the only explanation for inequality. But we’re not killing people in the Mideast for white supremacy (or any other form of discrimination). We’re doing it for the profits of the American economic elite. It’s the job of the US antiwar movement to tell that truth and shame the ruling class devil. Confusion with other good causes - like anti-discrimination - serves to obscure it. Regards, Carl > On Dec 6, 2017, at 7:27 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > All very good points Karen. > > Not to mention that members of an organization like AWARE need to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message can be communicated face to face and grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations and how endless war and empire is one of the root causes of most of our domestic problems. > I am sorry to say that AWARE does not have a very good reputation in the community currently because of its past refusal to find common cause with others. And I am NOT talking about the democrats. > Mohamed must go to the mountain and one should NOT expect the mountain to come to Mohamed. > > David J. > > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net ] On Behalf Of Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 6:57 AM > To: Robert Naiman > Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday > > No kidding Bob, I’m under no illusion that our solidarity will be reciprocated. In the nearly five years I’ve been involved with AWARE, attending others programs, rally’s, demos, etc. I’ve never seen, almost never, others join AWARE in our demos, protests, or events against war, that includes you. > > However, that is not why I urge AWARE to attend and endorse this anti-tax rally. That is not why I urge everyone to attend. > > I do it because: > > 1) It’s the Right Thing to do. > > 2) Everyone should be opposing the tax increase being imposed upon all, but the super wealthy. We know, social services such as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, come next. > > 3) Ending war, means changing the “system of government,” not just new elections, perhaps the “tax issue” will forward that happening, perhaps not. > > 4) I hope you’ll join us. > > >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 04:42, Robert Naiman > wrote: >> >> I have to admit that my sympathy is more with Carl in this dispute. >> >> On the one hand, all good people should support all good things and oppose all bad things, no matter what, right? If someone hands me a petition saying, oppose the execution of X, I sign it. I don't bother to scrutinize the details. I oppose the death penalty no matter what. I oppose it for the innocent, and I oppose it for the guilty. So what difference does it make if the person is innocent or guilty? I'm going to sign the petition anyway. >> >> On the other hand, nobody should be under any illusions that if anti-war, anti-Empire people in the U.S. spend energy and resources supporting the justice causes that other people are focused on, that will necessarily make them more likely in the future to support anti-war, anti-Empire justice causes. It might work like that in a normal country. But in the United States, since the McCarthy period, the liberals have been indoctrinated not to help us. So, do the right thing, but don't be under any illusions that your solidarity will be reciprocated. >> >> === >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >> https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 >> >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >> https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> Thank you, Karen >> >> The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. >> >> >>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 > wrote: >>> >>> Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. >>> >>> I will be there. >>> >>> I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. >>> >>> Pace e bene, >>> - Karen Medina >>> >>> >>> From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com ] >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM >>> To: C G Estabrook >>> Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien >>> Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday >>> >>> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >>> >>> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >>> >>>> >>>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >>>> >>>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>>> >>>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>>> >>>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>>>>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>>>>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>>>>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>>>>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>>>>> >>>>>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>>>>> >>>>>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>>>>> >>>>>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>>>>> >>>>>> Their FB message: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C93b9f461d6fe421afb2008d53d72b05f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636482485149289331&sdata=2VcCzncFCbTt%2FSIX7zQY3UpVncM06lZgp5fhrB6NKHc%3D&reserved=0 > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 7 14:52:02 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 14:52:02 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: References: <16031107536-1713-1e234@webjas-vaa132.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Too late. Showing up as individuals is what we want now, forget affiliation with AWARE. On Dec 7, 2017, at 06:43, C G Estabrook > wrote: How would AWARE go about an endorsement? Vote on an email list? Consensus at a meeting? Or just AWARE members showing up? On Dec 7, 2017, at 8:20 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: Of course not, Midge That’s why I’m sending out the notices, I hope we can have as many people participate as possible, in spite of lousy weather. Not as a group but as individuals. David Johnson, Stuart and Karen M. have committed to being there, as well as David Enstrom of the local Green Party. Initially I was hoping for “endorsement” from AWARE, as that offer was presented to us. However, given the dialog that has taken place, I no longer want it and told the organizer I’m in contact with, that “No” forget AWARE. We may have Green Party Illinois endorsement, however, some of the data doesn’t match up with that provided by the Intercept, so until that is corrected, the Greens are on hold. On Dec 7, 2017, at 05:00, Mildred O'brien via Peace-discuss > wrote: Do you have to belong to an organization to participate in the Rally? Midge O'Brien -----Original Message----- From: C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > To: David Johnson > Cc: peace-discuss >; Karen Aram > Sent: Wed, Dec 6, 2017 2:27 pm Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday David— “Intersectionality” [ = “Why don’t all of us discriminated-against people get together?”] is the desperate dead-end of identity politics, which is itself the cover for neoliberalism. Once class politics are abandoned, discrimination rather than exploitation becomes the only explanation for inequality. But we’re not killing people in the Mideast for white supremacy (or any other form of discrimination). We’re doing it for the profits of the American economic elite. It’s the job of the US antiwar movement to tell that truth and shame the ruling class devil. Confusion with other good causes - like anti-discrimination - serves to obscure it. Regards, Carl > On Dec 6, 2017, at 7:27 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > All very good points Karen. > > Not to mention that members of an organization like AWARE need to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message can be communicated face to face and grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations and how endless war and empire is one of the root causes of most of our domestic problems. > I am sorry to say that AWARE does not have a very good reputation in the community currently because of its past refusal to find common cause with others. And I am NOT talking about the democrats. > Mohamed must go to the mountain and one should NOT expect the mountain to come to Mohamed. > > David J. > > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 6:57 AM > To: Robert Naiman > Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday > > No kidding Bob, I’m under no illusion that our solidarity will be reciprocated. In the nearly five years I’ve been involved with AWARE, attending others programs, rally’s, demos, etc. I’ve never seen, almost never, others join AWARE in our demos, protests, or events against war, that includes you. > > However, that is not why I urge AWARE to attend and endorse this anti-tax rally. That is not why I urge everyone to attend. > > I do it because: > > 1) It’s the Right Thing to do. > > 2) Everyone should be opposing the tax increase being imposed upon all, but the super wealthy. We know, social services such as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, come next. > > 3) Ending war, means changing the “system of government,” not just new elections, perhaps the “tax issue” will forward that happening, perhaps not. > > 4) I hope you’ll join us. > > >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 04:42, Robert Naiman > wrote: >> >> I have to admit that my sympathy is more with Carl in this dispute. >> >> On the one hand, all good people should support all good things and oppose all bad things, no matter what, right? If someone hands me a petition saying, oppose the execution of X, I sign it. I don't bother to scrutinize the details. I oppose the death penalty no matter what. I oppose it for the innocent, and I oppose it for the guilty. So what difference does it make if the person is innocent or guilty? I'm going to sign the petition anyway. >> >> On the other hand, nobody should be under any illusions that if anti-war, anti-Empire people in the U.S. spend energy and resources supporting the justice causes that other people are focused on, that will necessarily make them more likely in the future to support anti-war, anti-Empire justice causes. It might work like that in a normal country. But in the United States, since the McCarthy period, the liberals have been indoctrinated not to help us. So, do the right thing, but don't be under any illusions that your solidarity will be reciprocated. >> >> === >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >> https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 >> >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >> https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> Thank you, Karen >> >> The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. >> >> >>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 > wrote: >>> >>> Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. >>> >>> I will be there. >>> >>> I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. >>> >>> Pace e bene, >>> - Karen Medina >>> >>> >>> From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM >>> To: C G Estabrook >>> Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien >>> Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday >>> >>> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >>> >>> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >>> >>>> >>>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >>>> >>>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>>> >>>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>>> >>>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>>>>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>>>>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>>>>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>>>>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>>>>> >>>>>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>>>>> >>>>>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>>>>> >>>>>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>>>>> >>>>>> Their FB message: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C93b9f461d6fe421afb2008d53d72b05f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636482485149289331&sdata=2VcCzncFCbTt%2FSIX7zQY3UpVncM06lZgp5fhrB6NKHc%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 14:54:33 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:54:33 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: References: <16031107536-1713-1e234@webjas-vaa132.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <2E4B8B37-C5D0-4D2D-99AE-503960B450CC@gmail.com> AWARE began as an organization concerned about the war, but threatens to become an organization concerned about the organization… > On Dec 7, 2017, at 8:52 AM, Karen Aram wrote: > > Too late. Showing up as individuals is what we want now, forget affiliation with AWARE. > > >> On Dec 7, 2017, at 06:43, C G Estabrook > wrote: >> >> How would AWARE go about an endorsement? Vote on an email list? Consensus at a meeting? Or just AWARE members showing up? >> >> >>> On Dec 7, 2017, at 8:20 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>> >>> Of course not, Midge >>> >>> That’s why I’m sending out the notices, I hope we can have as many people participate as possible, in spite of lousy weather. Not as a group but as individuals. David Johnson, Stuart and Karen M. have committed to being there, as well as David Enstrom of the local Green Party. >>> >>> Initially I was hoping for “endorsement” from AWARE, as that offer was presented to us. However, given the dialog that has taken place, I no longer want it and told the organizer I’m in contact with, that “No” forget AWARE. >>> >>> We may have Green Party Illinois endorsement, however, some of the data doesn’t match up with that provided by the Intercept, so until that is corrected, the Greens are on hold. >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 7, 2017, at 05:00, Mildred O'brien via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>>> >>>> Do you have to belong to an organization to participate in the Rally? >>>> >>>> Midge O'Brien >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > >>>> To: David Johnson > >>>> Cc: peace-discuss >; Karen Aram > >>>> Sent: Wed, Dec 6, 2017 2:27 pm >>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday >>>> >>>> David— “Intersectionality” [ = “Why don’t all of us discriminated-against people get together?”] is the desperate dead-end of identity politics, which is itself the cover for neoliberalism. Once class politics are abandoned, discrimination rather than exploitation becomes the only explanation for inequality. But we’re not killing people in the Mideast for white supremacy (or any other form of discrimination). We’re doing it for the profits of the American economic elite. It’s the job of the US antiwar movement to tell that truth and shame the ruling class devil. Confusion with other good causes - like anti-discrimination - serves to obscure it. Regards, Carl > On Dec 6, 2017, at 7:27 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > All very good points Karen. > > Not to mention that members of an organization like AWARE need to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message can be communicated face to face and grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations and how endless war and empire is one of the root causes of most of our domestic problems. > I am sorry to say that AWARE does not have a very good reputation in the community currently because of its past refusal to find common cause with others. And I am NOT talking about the democrats. > Mohamed must go to the mountain and one should NOT expect the mountain to come to Mohamed. > > David J. > > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net ] On Behalf Of Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 6:57 AM > To: Robert Naiman > Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday > > No kidding Bob, I’m under no illusion that our solidarity will be reciprocated. In the nearly five years I’ve been involved with AWARE, attending others programs, rally’s, demos, etc. I’ve never seen, almost never, others join AWARE in our demos, protests, or events against war, that includes you. > > However, that is not why I urge AWARE to attend and endorse this anti-tax rally. That is not why I urge everyone to attend. > > I do it because: > > 1) It’s the Right Thing to do. > > 2) Everyone should be opposing the tax increase being imposed upon all, but the super wealthy. We know, social services such as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, come next. > > 3) Ending war, means changing the “system of government,” not just new elections, perhaps the “tax issue” will forward that happening, perhaps not. > > 4) I hope you’ll join us. > > >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 04:42, Robert Naiman > wrote: >> >> I have to admit that my sympathy is more with Carl in this dispute. >> >> On the one hand, all good people should support all good things and oppose all bad things, no matter what, right? If someone hands me a petition saying, oppose the execution of X, I sign it. I don't bother to scrutinize the details. I oppose the death penalty no matter what. I oppose it for the innocent, and I oppose it for the guilty. So what difference does it make if the person is innocent or guilty? I'm going to sign the petition anyway. >> >> On the other hand, nobody should be under any illusions that if anti-war, anti-Empire people in the U.S. spend energy and resources supporting the justice causes that other people are focused on, that will necessarily make them more likely in the future to support anti-war, anti-Empire justice causes. It might work like that in a normal country. But in the United States, since the McCarthy period, the liberals have been indoctrinated not to help us. So, do the right thing, but don't be under any illusions that your solidarity will be reciprocated. >> >> === >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >> https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 >> >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >>www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >> https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> Thank you, Karen >> >> The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. >> >> >>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 > wrote: >>> >>> Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. >>> >>> I will be there. >>> >>> I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. >>> >>> Pace e bene, >>> - Karen Medina >>> >>> >>> From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com ] >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM >>> To: C G Estabrook >>> Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien >>> Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday >>> >>> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >>> >>> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >>> >>>> >>>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >>>> >>>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>>> >>>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>>> >>>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>>>>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>>>>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>>>>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>>>>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>>>>> >>>>>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>>>>> >>>>>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>>>>> >>>>>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>>>>> >>>>>> Their FB message: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C93b9f461d6fe421afb2008d53d72b05f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636482485149289331&sdata=2VcCzncFCbTt%2FSIX7zQY3UpVncM06lZgp5fhrB6NKHc%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 7 16:18:04 2017 From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:18:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 93 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56112843.483551.1512663484559@mail.yahoo.com> Don't organize local outdoor protests unless you have the ability to have hundreds of people show up. Without this, you display your impotence and incompetence. Put some energy into figuring out why only a few people attend....don't keep making the same mistakes... get some internet presence... social media...anything..one of the latest is the of Block Explorers...investigate... On Thursday, December 7, 2017 8:55 AM, "peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net" wrote: Send Peace-discuss mailing list submissions to     peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net You can reach the person managing the list at     peace-discuss-owner at lists.chambana.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Peace-discuss digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Re: Tax Rally Saturday (C G Estabrook) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:54:33 -0600 From: C G Estabrook To: Karen Aram Cc: "peace-discuss at anti-war.net" Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday Message-ID: <2E4B8B37-C5D0-4D2D-99AE-503960B450CC at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" AWARE began as an organization concerned about the war, but threatens to become an organization concerned about the organization… > On Dec 7, 2017, at 8:52 AM, Karen Aram wrote: > > Too late. Showing up as individuals is what we want now, forget affiliation with AWARE. > > >> On Dec 7, 2017, at 06:43, C G Estabrook > wrote: >> >> How would AWARE go about an endorsement? Vote on an email list? Consensus at a meeting? Or just AWARE members showing up? >> >> >>> On Dec 7, 2017, at 8:20 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>> >>> Of course not, Midge >>> >>> That’s why I’m sending out the notices, I hope we can have as many people participate as possible, in spite of lousy weather. Not as a group but as individuals. David Johnson, Stuart and Karen M. have committed to being there, as well as David Enstrom of the local Green Party. >>> >>> Initially I was hoping for “endorsement” from AWARE, as that offer was presented to us. However, given the dialog that has taken place, I no longer want it and told the organizer I’m in contact with, that “No” forget AWARE. >>>  >>> We may have Green Party Illinois endorsement, however, some of the data doesn’t match up with that provided by the Intercept, so until that is corrected, the Greens are on hold. >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 7, 2017, at 05:00, Mildred O'brien via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>>> >>>> Do you have to belong to an organization to participate in the Rally? >>>> >>>> Midge O'Brien >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > >>>> To: David Johnson > >>>> Cc: peace-discuss >; Karen Aram > >>>> Sent: Wed, Dec 6, 2017 2:27 pm >>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday >>>> >>>> David— “Intersectionality” [ = “Why don’t all of us discriminated-against people get together?”] is the desperate dead-end of identity politics, which is itself the cover for neoliberalism. Once class politics are abandoned, discrimination rather than exploitation becomes the only explanation for inequality. But we’re not killing people in the Mideast for white supremacy (or any other form of discrimination). We’re doing it for the profits of the American economic elite. It’s the job of the US antiwar movement to tell that truth and shame the ruling class devil. Confusion with other good causes - like anti-discrimination - serves to obscure it. Regards, Carl > On Dec 6, 2017, at 7:27 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > All very good points Karen. > > Not to mention that members of an organization like AWARE need to interact with people from other social justice, anti-capitalist, anti-empire organizations now and then so that the antiwar message can be communicated face to face and grounded in the concerns of the people in these other organizations and how endless war and empire is one of the root causes of most of our domestic problems. > I am sorry to say that AWARE does not have a very good reputation in the community currently because of its past refusal to find common cause with others. And I am NOT talking about the democrats. > Mohamed must go to the mountain and one should NOT expect the mountain to come to Mohamed. > > David J. > > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net ] On Behalf Of Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 6:57 AM > To: Robert Naiman > Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday > > No kidding Bob, I’m under no illusion that our solidarity will be reciprocated. In the nearly five years I’ve been involved with AWARE, attending others programs, rally’s, demos, etc. I’ve never seen, almost never, others join AWARE in our demos, protests, or events against war, that includes you. > > However, that is not why I urge AWARE to attend and endorse this anti-tax rally. That is not why I urge everyone to attend. > > I do it because: > > 1) It’s the Right Thing to do. > > 2) Everyone should be opposing the tax increase being imposed upon all, but the super wealthy. We know, social services such as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, come next. > > 3) Ending war, means changing the “system of government,” not just new elections, perhaps the “tax issue” will forward that happening, perhaps not. > > 4) I hope you’ll join us. > > >> On Dec 6, 2017, at 04:42, Robert Naiman > wrote: >> >> I have to admit that my sympathy is more with Carl in this dispute. >> >> On the one hand, all good people should support all good things and oppose all bad things, no matter what, right? If someone hands me a petition saying, oppose the execution of X, I sign it. I don't bother to scrutinize the details. I oppose the death penalty no matter what. I oppose it for the innocent, and I oppose it for the guilty. So what difference does it make if the person is innocent or guilty? I'm going to sign the petition anyway. >> >> On the other hand, nobody should be under any illusions that if anti-war, anti-Empire people in the U.S. spend energy and resources supporting the justice causes that other people are focused on, that will necessarily make them more likely in the future to support anti-war, anti-Empire justice causes. It might work like that in a normal country. But in the United States, since the McCarthy period, the liberals have been indoctrinated not to help us. So, do the right thing, but don't be under any illusions that your solidarity will be reciprocated. >> >> === >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >> https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 >> >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >>www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen >> https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> Thank you, Karen >> >> The date has been changed from the 9th to the 16th. >> >> >>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 20:50, kmedina67 > wrote: >>> >>> Karen Aram, thank you very much for pushing us on this. >>> >>> I will be there. >>> >>> I will be there, not in the name of anarchism which I do admire but only from afar; but in the name of Advent -- a time of great hope and preparation for the arrival of the most precious gift of love and sacrifice. In this spirit, I will be there. >>> >>> Pace e bene, >>> - Karen Medina >>> >>> >>> From: Karen Aram [mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com ] >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:27 PM >>> To: C G Estabrook >>> Cc: David Green; Stuart Levy; David Johnson; Karen AWARE Medina; Mildred O'brien >>> Subject: Re: Tax Rally Saturday >>> >>> The tax plan is not a “mere distraction of the anti-war movement,” it is another GOP, neocon means of impoverishing the American working class. The fact that the Democrat Party voted against it, must be disturbing, but the fact that they did nothing, and never do, being good cops vs. bad cops is irrelevant. >>> >>> I will be there, if AWARE doesn’t wish to endorse it fine, another nail in their coffin. >>> >>>> >>>> Perhaps we should have considered it at Sunday’s meeting. >>>> >>>> I can't imagine any AWAREists being in favor of the tax bill, but it is a bit removed from an anti-war focus. >>>> >>>> The political establishment is working furiously to distract the anti-war movement (e.g., “#Resistance”) >>>> >>>> So it may be worthwhile for us to concentrate on US wars, as we've tried to do for 16 years. —CGE >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What about AWARE endorsing the rally? >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 09:40, David Green > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not up for an outdoor event related to this particular issue on such a cold day, especially given our presence at the indoor market on Saturday morning. >>>>>> On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎5‎, ‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎53‎:‎45‎ ‎AM, Karen Aram > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I received this message today from Joel of one of the “left” or anti-capitalist organizations I met with on Saturday. He is requesting AWARE sponsor their anti-tax rally on Saturday, along with the other groups referred to below, and send a speaker. >>>>>> If David Green is willing, I would like to recommend he speak on behalf of AWARE on this topic. >>>>>> David Johnson, is well informed on the topic, but will likely be representing the DSA? >>>>>> Carl is an excellent speaker but might have a problem targeting the GOP. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please see below Joel’s message: >>>>>> >>>>>> "We're looking to hold it this Saturday at 2pm, at the federal courthouse in Urbana. The plan is to have a rally with speakers, and a street march if we think we have enough people.” >>>>>> >>>>>> "So far it looks like GEO will endorse, in addition to the Democratic Socialists, ISO and Socialist Alternative. Black Rose can'd endorse but a couple of them are active in helping to organize it. Would AWARE be able to co-sponsor as well, and send a speaker? " >>>>>> >>>>>> "We're putting together a Facebook event tonight, with this messaging >>>>>> >>>>>> Their FB message: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Last Friday, the Republicans passed their tax bill through the Senate that would *increase* taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years - the largest tax increase in US history. The bill would also trigger automatic cuts to medicare and social security, further devastate public education, and potentially triple or quadruple taxes on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this rip-off will massively increase economic and racial inequality in the United States. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, and they've shown that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. This Friday at 5, we'll join nationwide protests by rallying to fight back. We won't accept having bread taken out of our mouths. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this vicious bill is dead! >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C93b9f461d6fe421afb2008d53d72b05f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636482485149289331&sdata=2VcCzncFCbTt%2FSIX7zQY3UpVncM06lZgp5fhrB6NKHc%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss ------------------------------ End of Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 167, Issue 93 ********************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmedina67 at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 16:54:55 2017 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (Karen Medina) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 10:54:55 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Tax Rally Saturday In-Reply-To: <16031107536-1713-1e234@webjas-vaa132.srv.aolmail.net> References: <2AEE968F-C7B7-4416-ACF1-660CCB594ABC@gmail.com> <16031107536-1713-1e234@webjas-vaa132.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Mildred O'brien wrote: > Do you have to belong to an organization to participate in the Rally? Dear Midge, Excellent question. Absolutely not. Everyone welcome! Metaphorically speaking: New choir members welcome. -karen medina From kmedina67 at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 17:02:46 2017 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (Karen Medina) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 11:02:46 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] L'Shana Haba'ah B'Yerushalayim In-Reply-To: <567189EF-F8C8-44A5-8879-77732B062FC1@gmail.com> References: <1529059805.2033891.1512495610735@mail.yahoo.com> <567189EF-F8C8-44A5-8879-77732B062FC1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Carl wrote: > Suppose Trump has made his Jerusalem move as part of a 'deal' - a negotiation - to mollify Israel & the KSA - as a substitute for war with Iran (backed by Russia)? 1) I suppose, if this were the situation, that it would be best for Trump himself to make it clear to the American people that this is the deal he made.* 2) Would this even work? 3) What about all the other problems it causes 4) What about all the other problems it fails to solve. -karen medina * As to how he would tell the American people, I doubt that it would fit into a tweet unless he chose his words very carefully. or used yours. On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 8:29 PM, C G Estabrook wrote: > Suppose Trump has made his Jerusalem move as part of a 'deal' - a negotiation - to mollify Israel & the KSA - as a substitute for war with Iran (backed by Russia)? > > That would be sabre-rattling that might get both Bibi & MBS off his back. The Pentagon wants to threaten - not actually fight - Russia; they learnt their lesson in Syria. -- -- karen medina "The really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." - Mark Twain From naiman at justforeignpolicy.org Thu Dec 7 17:09:04 2017 From: naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (Robert Naiman) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 11:09:04 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] L'Shana Haba'ah B'Yerushalayim In-Reply-To: References: <1529059805.2033891.1512495610735@mail.yahoo.com> <567189EF-F8C8-44A5-8879-77732B062FC1@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm against Trump's Jerusalem move. I'm on the train to Chicago right now to go protest it. But it's funny to me how this "Arab analyst" thinks that Trump's Jerusalem move is so much more offensive than Saudi Arabia deliberately starving Yemeni children to death. I wonder how much money he's getting from Saudi sources. Robert Naiman Policy Director Just Foreign Policy www.justforeignpolicy.org naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (202) 448-2898 x1 Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Karen Medina via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > Carl wrote: > > Suppose Trump has made his Jerusalem move as part of a 'deal' - a > negotiation - to mollify Israel & the KSA - as a substitute for war with > Iran (backed by Russia)? > > 1) I suppose, if this were the situation, that it would be best for > Trump himself to make it clear to the American people that this is the > deal he made.* > 2) Would this even work? > 3) What about all the other problems it causes > 4) What about all the other problems it fails to solve. > > -karen medina > * As to how he would tell the American people, I doubt that it would > fit into a tweet unless he chose his words very carefully. or used > yours. > > > > On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 8:29 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: > > Suppose Trump has made his Jerusalem move as part of a 'deal' - a > negotiation - to mollify Israel & the KSA - as a substitute for war with > Iran (backed by Russia)? > > > > That would be sabre-rattling that might get both Bibi & MBS off his > back. The Pentagon wants to threaten - not actually fight - Russia; they > learnt their lesson in Syria. > > > > -- > -- karen medina > "The really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." - Mark > Twain > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 17:11:20 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 11:11:20 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] L'Shana Haba'ah B'Yerushalayim In-Reply-To: References: <1529059805.2033891.1512495610735@mail.yahoo.com> <567189EF-F8C8-44A5-8879-77732B062FC1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <323FCF14-649F-46C4-BF2F-7B723B622B28@gmail.com> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-12-06/trumps-jerusalem-tit-tat-orders-saudis-%E2%80%98immediately%E2%80%99-end-yemen-blockade > On Dec 7, 2017, at 11:09 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss wrote: > > I'm against Trump's Jerusalem move. I'm on the train to Chicago right now to go protest it. > > But it's funny to me how this "Arab analyst" thinks that Trump's Jerusalem move is so much more offensive than Saudi Arabia deliberately starving Yemeni children to death. > > I wonder how much money he's getting from Saudi sources. > > > > Robert Naiman > Policy Director > Just Foreign Policy > www.justforeignpolicy.org > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org > (202) 448-2898 x1 > > Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen > https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 > > > > On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Karen Medina via Peace-discuss > wrote: > Carl wrote: > > Suppose Trump has made his Jerusalem move as part of a 'deal' - a negotiation - to mollify Israel & the KSA - as a substitute for war with Iran (backed by Russia)? > > 1) I suppose, if this were the situation, that it would be best for > Trump himself to make it clear to the American people that this is the > deal he made.* > 2) Would this even work? > 3) What about all the other problems it causes > 4) What about all the other problems it fails to solve. > > -karen medina > * As to how he would tell the American people, I doubt that it would > fit into a tweet unless he chose his words very carefully. or used > yours. > > > > On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 8:29 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: > > Suppose Trump has made his Jerusalem move as part of a 'deal' - a negotiation - to mollify Israel & the KSA - as a substitute for war with Iran (backed by Russia)? > > > > That would be sabre-rattling that might get both Bibi & MBS off his back. The Pentagon wants to threaten - not actually fight - Russia; they learnt their lesson in Syria. > > > > -- > -- karen medina > "The really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." - Mark Twain > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r-szoke at illinois.edu Thu Dec 7 18:44:36 2017 From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 18:44:36 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Liberals Need to Take Their Fingers Out of Their Ears Message-ID: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/07/opinion/liberals-conservatives-trump.html?ribbon-ad-idx=9&rref=opinion&module=Ribbon&version=context®ion=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&pgtype=article Liberals Need to Take Their Fingers Out of Their Ears Thomas B. EdsallDEC. 7, 2017 [https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/12/07/opinion/07EDSALL/07EDSALL-superJumbo.jpg] Trump supporters on a bridge near the Mar-a-Lago Club in West Palm Beach, Fla., last month. Al Drago for The New York Times Given the triumph of contemporary conservatism, it may be time for liberals to take a look at the vulnerabilities of their own orthodoxies. Democrats who yearn for President Trump to be taken down should examine this list of Republican strengths: victories in all three contested special elections for the House of Representatives this year; Trump’s 82 percent approval rating among Republican voters; his success with the current tax bill; his swift evisceration of key regulatory policies; the Gorsuch appointment to the Supreme Court; economic growth of over 3 percent in the last two quarters; the Dow Jones topping 24,000; and the unemployment rate dropping to 4.1 percent. For the moment, the left is both stunned and infuriated by the vehement animosity it faces from red America, which is made up of counties that are 84 percent less dense than blue America, 37 percent less racially and ethnically diverse, and 34 percent more white. Voters in red America are 44 percent less likely to be college graduates and 22 percent more likely to have served in the armed forces. Geographically speaking, red counties are virtually nonexistent on the West Coast and on the East Coast north of the Mason-Dixon line. Many Democrats continue to have little understanding of their own role — often inadvertent, an unintended consequence of well-meaning behavior — in creating the conditions that make conservatives willing to support Trump and the party he is leading. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Thu Dec 7 20:20:24 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 14:20:24 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: WORLD LABOR HOUR SATURDAY DEC. 9th Message-ID: <00ec01d36f98$d1960ba0$74c222e0$@comcast.net> WORLD LABOR HOUR SATURDAY DEC 9th 11 AM - 1 PM Central Time 104.5 FM and webcast LIVE worldwide at ; www.wrfu.net Bianca Nehan. Former Chicago resident, student at SIUC and a member of the Champaign-Urbana DSA ( Democratic Socialists of America ) will be live in the studio to talk about her father's ordeal several years ago as a detainee at the infamous Homan Square detention and torture center operated by the Chicago Police department. Also - Congress is rushing through a new tax bill that will increase taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years, the largest tax increase in US history. The bill will trigger automatic cuts to Medicare and Social Security, further devastate public education, and may include a massive tax increase on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this bill will transform the economy for generations to come, leading to even more economic and racial inequality. We will be discussing this horrific tax bill and the protest next Saturday in Champaign-Urbana. cid:B77DAC60-9679-42AA-B939-D7A7A1C5AD35 Stay tuned after the World labor Hour for THE UNION EDGE with Host Charles Showalter and from 2-3 PM NOT ANOTHER SPORTS SHOW with Host Fellow Worker Neil Parthun WRFU 104.5 FM - Radio Free Urbana - Listener supported corporate free community radio. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 41273 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Thu Dec 7 21:05:59 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 21:05:59 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] 'Death Sentence': World Leaders Slam Trump Over Reckless Jerusalem Stunt - Sputnik International In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: International law professor at the University of Illinois, Francis Boyle, in turn, believes that Trump's decision will undermine US relations with Arab and Muslim communities around the world. "It will only light a fire, which I think is interested in Trump ... he knows exactly what he started," Boyle said. In his view, Trump's decision could lead to a massive uprising in the West Bank and Gaza Strip to end Israeli occupation. "I am afraid a large number of people will die because President Trump has just done it here, which could lead to new conflicts," he added. He noted that about 3,000 Palestinians and a thousand Israelis were killed in the last war, which began in 2000. "It fits Trump's story about the clash of civilizations ... I think anyone who knows something about the Muslim and Arab world can foresee their reaction, I'm sorry to say that we tend to see this in the near future," - said Boyle. and US-backed Muslims will face instability and increasing violence from their citizens. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 8:50 PM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: FW: 'Death Sentence': World Leaders Slam Trump Over Reckless Jerusalem Stunt - Sputnik International Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 8:48 PM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: 'Death Sentence': World Leaders Slam Trump Over Reckless Jerusalem Stunt - Sputnik International https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201712071059769884-un-jerusalem-reax-trump-embassy/ In addition, Trump's decision will likely disrupt US relations with the Arab and Muslim community worldwide, provoking a mass uprising in the West Bank and Gaza Strip to end Israel's so-called occupation and eventually US-backed leaders in the Arab and Muslim world may face instability and an upsurge in violence from their citizens, University of Illinois Professor of International Law Francis Boyle told Sputnik. From fboyle at illinois.edu Thu Dec 7 21:05:59 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 21:05:59 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] 'Death Sentence': World Leaders Slam Trump Over Reckless Jerusalem Stunt - Sputnik International In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: International law professor at the University of Illinois, Francis Boyle, in turn, believes that Trump's decision will undermine US relations with Arab and Muslim communities around the world. "It will only light a fire, which I think is interested in Trump ... he knows exactly what he started," Boyle said. In his view, Trump's decision could lead to a massive uprising in the West Bank and Gaza Strip to end Israeli occupation. "I am afraid a large number of people will die because President Trump has just done it here, which could lead to new conflicts," he added. He noted that about 3,000 Palestinians and a thousand Israelis were killed in the last war, which began in 2000. "It fits Trump's story about the clash of civilizations ... I think anyone who knows something about the Muslim and Arab world can foresee their reaction, I'm sorry to say that we tend to see this in the near future," - said Boyle. and US-backed Muslims will face instability and increasing violence from their citizens. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 8:50 PM To: 'David Green' ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; 'sherwoodross10 at gmail.com' ; 'peace-discuss at anti-war.net' ; 'C. G. ESTABROOK' ; 'a-fields at uiuc.edu' ; 'Joe Lauria' ; 'Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net' ; 'peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net' ; Szoke, Ron ; 'Arlene Hickory' ; 'Karen Aram' ; 'abass10 at gmail.com' ; 'mickalideh at gmail.com' ; 'Lina Thorne' ; 'chicago at worldcantwait.net' ; 'Jay' ; 'David Johnson' ; 'Mildred O'brien' ; 'C G Estabrook' Subject: FW: 'Death Sentence': World Leaders Slam Trump Over Reckless Jerusalem Stunt - Sputnik International Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 8:48 PM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: 'Death Sentence': World Leaders Slam Trump Over Reckless Jerusalem Stunt - Sputnik International https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201712071059769884-un-jerusalem-reax-trump-embassy/ In addition, Trump's decision will likely disrupt US relations with the Arab and Muslim community worldwide, provoking a mass uprising in the West Bank and Gaza Strip to end Israel's so-called occupation and eventually US-backed leaders in the Arab and Muslim world may face instability and an upsurge in violence from their citizens, University of Illinois Professor of International Law Francis Boyle told Sputnik. From fboyle at illinois.edu Thu Dec 7 23:10:37 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 23:10:37 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?b?Rlc6IOW3neaZruiAtui3r+aSkuWGt+WGsw==?= =?utf-8?b?5a6a55qE5rOV5b6L5Z+656GA?= References: Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2017 5:09 PM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: FW: 川普耶路撒冷决定的法律基础 OK People. I made it onto Voice of America—Mirabile dictu! Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2017 5:05 PM To: Boyle, Francis A > Subject: 川普耶路撒冷决定的法律基础 [https://gdb.voanews.com/EF15E504-5465-4E86-BC16-D3135AA9AC1E_w1200_r1_s.jpg] 川普耶路撒冷决定的法律基础 川普总统正式宣布承认耶路撒冷为以色列的首都之后，支持和抗议的声浪此起彼伏。美国大多数法律专家认为，作为行政部门的首脑，总统有权做出这类决定，但是在此举是否符合国际法方面，专家们存在很大分歧。 https://www.voachinese.com/a/legal-window-trump-jerusalem-20171207/4153957.html Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Thu Dec 7 23:10:37 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 23:10:37 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?b?Rlc6IOW3neaZruiAtui3r+aSkuWGt+WGsw==?= =?utf-8?b?5a6a55qE5rOV5b6L5Z+656GA?= References: Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2017 5:09 PM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: FW: 川普耶路撒冷决定的法律基础 OK People. I made it onto Voice of America—Mirabile dictu! Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2017 5:05 PM To: Boyle, Francis A > Subject: 川普耶路撒冷决定的法律基础 [https://gdb.voanews.com/EF15E504-5465-4E86-BC16-D3135AA9AC1E_w1200_r1_s.jpg] 川普耶路撒冷决定的法律基础 川普总统正式宣布承认耶路撒冷为以色列的首都之后，支持和抗议的声浪此起彼伏。美国大多数法律专家认为，作为行政部门的首脑，总统有权做出这类决定，但是在此举是否符合国际法方面，专家们存在很大分歧。 https://www.voachinese.com/a/legal-window-trump-jerusalem-20171207/4153957.html Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davegreen84 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 8 02:41:16 2017 From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 02:41:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Liberals Need to Take Their Fingers Out of Their Ears In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <713024403.519468.1512700876423@mail.yahoo.com> I was willing to give Thomas Edsall a chance to "redeem" himself, but it's the same old mire of Identity Politics, taken as a given in understanding "red" and "blue" America in terms of "culture." Some reference to class in terms of jobs, but ultimately dismissed. The article concludes with long quotes from Steven Pinker, who exemplifies liberal cluelessness. Pinker is just a complete ass, and he ends up making an ass of Edsall. DG On ‎Thursday‎, ‎December‎ ‎7‎, ‎2017‎ ‎12‎:‎54‎:‎10‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, Szoke, Ron via Peace-discuss wrote: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/07/opinion/liberals-conservatives-trump.html?ribbon-ad-idx=9&rref=opinion&module=Ribbon&version=context®ion=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&pgtype=article Liberals Need to Take Their Fingers Out of Their Ears Thomas B. Edsall DEC. 7, 2017 Trump supporters on a bridge near the Mar-a-Lago Club in West Palm Beach, Fla., last month. Al Drago for The New York Times Given the triumph of contemporary conservatism, it may be time for liberals to take a look at the vulnerabilities of their own orthodoxies. Democrats who yearn for President Trump to be taken down should examine this list of Republican strengths: victories in all threecontested special elections for the House of Representatives this year; Trump’s82 percent approval rating among Republican voters; his success with the current tax bill; his swift evisceration of key regulatory policies; the Gorsuch appointment to the Supreme Court; economic growth of over 3 percent in the last two quarters; the Dow Jones topping 24,000; and the unemployment rate dropping to 4.1 percent. For the moment, the left is both stunned and infuriated by the vehement animosity it faces fromred America, which is made up of counties that are 84 percent less dense than blue America, 37 percent less racially and ethnically diverse, and 34 percent more white. Voters in red America are 44 percent less likely to be college graduates and 22 percent more likely to have served in the armed forces. Geographically speaking, red counties are virtually nonexistent on the West Coast and on the East Coast north of the Mason-Dixon line. Many Democrats continue to have little understanding of their own role — often inadvertent, an unintended consequence of well-meaning behavior — in creating the conditions that make conservatives willing to support Trump and the party he is leading. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Fri Dec 8 13:27:33 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 13:27:33 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] News Gazoo Approves Dirty Dershowitz:Zionist War Criminal with Palestinian Blood on his hands Message-ID: Alan Dershowitz Retires From Harvard Law School By Francis Boyle 21 December, 2013 Countercurrents.org Alan Dershowitz, a prominent advocate for Israel, is retiring from Harvard Law School. Dershowitz Accused of War Crimes - On one issue-the Jewish settlements in the occupied lands-Israel has {already} been found, by an international court, to be in violation of international law. This has caused a firestorm of reaction from Israel, and its apologists, like Harvard's Alan Dershowitz. But, Francis Boyle and a number of other American human rights advocates have taken on Dershowitz on, and are ready to do it again. The settlements are "clearly illegal and criminal," said Boyle. "All the settlements, as the World Court ruled in the advisory opinion on the [Separation] Wall, all these settlements violate the Fourth Geneva Convention, and a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention is a war crime. All these so-called settlers are committing war crimes, except the children, who are obviously not old enough to formulate a criminal intent. "Indeed, Alan Dershowitz began attacking the World Court for this ruling and attacking their credibility, and this, that, and the other. "Well, Dershowitz is not a trained international lawyer; he's not a trained human rights lawyer. I debated him once, and he sort of gratuitously conceded that I was the expert on these subjects. "But in any event, what Dershowitz was not aware of, was that in the advisory committee proceedings, the American judge, Thomas Buergenthal, {who is a Holocaust survivor, himself}, joined the ruling-he dissented against a lot of other things by the World Court [International Court of Justice]-but Judge Buergenthal ruled that the settlements violate the Fourth Geneva Convention. And to Judge Buergenthal's credit-I've known him for many years; I have a lot of respect and admiration for him-he made this ruling. "So, in other words, Dershowitz was attacking the integrity of a Holocaust survivor. But of course, that doesn't surprise me: He attacked [Prof.] Norman Finkelstein's mother; he also attacked Prof. Israel Shahak, one of the leaders of the peace movement in Israel, himself a Holocaust survivor, unfortunately, no longer with us, but a great man. "I've dealt with [Shahak], I have great respect, and indeed, he was going to have a lecture tour here in the United States, in, I guess, the Fall of 1990, and he was coming to speak in Champaign, [Ill.], and the organizers of his lecture tour asked me if I would put him up in my home as my guest, in order to conserve on expenses, and I agreed. And I was greatly looking forward again to meeting Professor Shahak.... But as you know, with the Gulf crisis, Professor Shahak decided to cancel his lecture tour and stay home with his own people, which was certainly understandable. "Dershowitz couldn't care less. Whatever kind of outright character assassination he has to apply to anyone, even Holocaust survivors like Judge Buergenthal, Professor Shahak, Norman Finkelstein's mother, it doesn't bother Dershowitz. Indeed, my understanding is, he's trying to run to become President of Israel, to take Peres's place. Well, fine, it would be great to get him out of Harvard Law School-my dis-alma mater!-and ship him over to Israel with all the other war criminals over there. "In fact, I say that, because Dershowitz admitted, publicly, that he is part of a Mossad committee that authorized the assassination of Palestinians. "You can find that article on counterpunch.org, by Prof. [Liquat Ali] Khan. Well, the Palestinians are all protected persons under the Fourth Geneva Convention, and for Dershowitz to authorize their murder is a war crime. So, Dershowitz is a {prima facie} war criminal, who should be prosecuted himself. "And there he is, teaching at the Harvard Law School, and advocating torture, crimes against humanity, war crimes against the Palestinians. As you know, he said, `Well, we should just be obliterating their villages. You know, if they do this, there's a terror bombing here, we [should] destroy one of their villages.' "And, of course, Dershowitz also advocates torture here, in America. The guy's shameless. "I remember, [when] I started [at Harvard], Dershowitz started as an assistant professor, and his first big case was defending a pornographic film star in `Deep Throat.' Dershowitz likes to present himself as some great defender of the First Amendment.... Well, as Catherine McKinnon has, I think, taught us all, pornography is a form of violence against women: It's a human rights matter. So, it doesn't surprise me that Dershowitz started his career defending pornographers and pornography, and was and still is greatly proud of it-and now he moves on to defending war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide, and in addition, over the years, became a war criminal himself. "But the sum of it is, he's still teaching there at Harvard Law School. So, I hope he goes back to Israel and becomes President, sure! Be great to see him go: Bon voyage." Professor Francis A. Boyle is an international law expert and served as Legal Advisor to the Palestine Liberation Organization and Yasser Arafat on the 1988 Palestinian Declaration of Independence, as well as to the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East Peace Negotiations from 1991 to 1993, where he drafted the Palestinian counter-offer to the now defunct Oslo Agreement. His books include “ Palestine, Palestinians and International Law” (2003), and “ The Palestinian Right of Return under International Law” (2010). Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) Feed: "Francis Boyle" - Bing News Posted on: Saturday, December 21, 2013 2:41 AM Author: "Francis Boyle" - Bing News Subject: Alan Dershowitz Retires From Harvard Law School Alan Dershowitz, a prominent advocate for Israel, is retiring from Harvard Law School. Dershowitz Accused of War Crimes - On one issue-the Jewish settlements in the occupied lands-Israel has {already} been found, by an international court, to be in ... View article... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Fri Dec 8 13:27:33 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 13:27:33 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] News Gazoo Approves Dirty Dershowitz:Zionist War Criminal with Palestinian Blood on his hands Message-ID: Alan Dershowitz Retires From Harvard Law School By Francis Boyle 21 December, 2013 Countercurrents.org Alan Dershowitz, a prominent advocate for Israel, is retiring from Harvard Law School. Dershowitz Accused of War Crimes - On one issue-the Jewish settlements in the occupied lands-Israel has {already} been found, by an international court, to be in violation of international law. This has caused a firestorm of reaction from Israel, and its apologists, like Harvard's Alan Dershowitz. But, Francis Boyle and a number of other American human rights advocates have taken on Dershowitz on, and are ready to do it again. The settlements are "clearly illegal and criminal," said Boyle. "All the settlements, as the World Court ruled in the advisory opinion on the [Separation] Wall, all these settlements violate the Fourth Geneva Convention, and a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention is a war crime. All these so-called settlers are committing war crimes, except the children, who are obviously not old enough to formulate a criminal intent. "Indeed, Alan Dershowitz began attacking the World Court for this ruling and attacking their credibility, and this, that, and the other. "Well, Dershowitz is not a trained international lawyer; he's not a trained human rights lawyer. I debated him once, and he sort of gratuitously conceded that I was the expert on these subjects. "But in any event, what Dershowitz was not aware of, was that in the advisory committee proceedings, the American judge, Thomas Buergenthal, {who is a Holocaust survivor, himself}, joined the ruling-he dissented against a lot of other things by the World Court [International Court of Justice]-but Judge Buergenthal ruled that the settlements violate the Fourth Geneva Convention. And to Judge Buergenthal's credit-I've known him for many years; I have a lot of respect and admiration for him-he made this ruling. "So, in other words, Dershowitz was attacking the integrity of a Holocaust survivor. But of course, that doesn't surprise me: He attacked [Prof.] Norman Finkelstein's mother; he also attacked Prof. Israel Shahak, one of the leaders of the peace movement in Israel, himself a Holocaust survivor, unfortunately, no longer with us, but a great man. "I've dealt with [Shahak], I have great respect, and indeed, he was going to have a lecture tour here in the United States, in, I guess, the Fall of 1990, and he was coming to speak in Champaign, [Ill.], and the organizers of his lecture tour asked me if I would put him up in my home as my guest, in order to conserve on expenses, and I agreed. And I was greatly looking forward again to meeting Professor Shahak.... But as you know, with the Gulf crisis, Professor Shahak decided to cancel his lecture tour and stay home with his own people, which was certainly understandable. "Dershowitz couldn't care less. Whatever kind of outright character assassination he has to apply to anyone, even Holocaust survivors like Judge Buergenthal, Professor Shahak, Norman Finkelstein's mother, it doesn't bother Dershowitz. Indeed, my understanding is, he's trying to run to become President of Israel, to take Peres's place. Well, fine, it would be great to get him out of Harvard Law School-my dis-alma mater!-and ship him over to Israel with all the other war criminals over there. "In fact, I say that, because Dershowitz admitted, publicly, that he is part of a Mossad committee that authorized the assassination of Palestinians. "You can find that article on counterpunch.org, by Prof. [Liquat Ali] Khan. Well, the Palestinians are all protected persons under the Fourth Geneva Convention, and for Dershowitz to authorize their murder is a war crime. So, Dershowitz is a {prima facie} war criminal, who should be prosecuted himself. "And there he is, teaching at the Harvard Law School, and advocating torture, crimes against humanity, war crimes against the Palestinians. As you know, he said, `Well, we should just be obliterating their villages. You know, if they do this, there's a terror bombing here, we [should] destroy one of their villages.' "And, of course, Dershowitz also advocates torture here, in America. The guy's shameless. "I remember, [when] I started [at Harvard], Dershowitz started as an assistant professor, and his first big case was defending a pornographic film star in `Deep Throat.' Dershowitz likes to present himself as some great defender of the First Amendment.... Well, as Catherine McKinnon has, I think, taught us all, pornography is a form of violence against women: It's a human rights matter. So, it doesn't surprise me that Dershowitz started his career defending pornographers and pornography, and was and still is greatly proud of it-and now he moves on to defending war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide, and in addition, over the years, became a war criminal himself. "But the sum of it is, he's still teaching there at Harvard Law School. So, I hope he goes back to Israel and becomes President, sure! Be great to see him go: Bon voyage." Professor Francis A. Boyle is an international law expert and served as Legal Advisor to the Palestine Liberation Organization and Yasser Arafat on the 1988 Palestinian Declaration of Independence, as well as to the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East Peace Negotiations from 1991 to 1993, where he drafted the Palestinian counter-offer to the now defunct Oslo Agreement. His books include “ Palestine, Palestinians and International Law” (2003), and “ The Palestinian Right of Return under International Law” (2010). Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) Feed: "Francis Boyle" - Bing News Posted on: Saturday, December 21, 2013 2:41 AM Author: "Francis Boyle" - Bing News Subject: Alan Dershowitz Retires From Harvard Law School Alan Dershowitz, a prominent advocate for Israel, is retiring from Harvard Law School. Dershowitz Accused of War Crimes - On one issue-the Jewish settlements in the occupied lands-Israel has {already} been found, by an international court, to be in ... View article... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Fri Dec 8 13:30:54 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 13:30:54 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] News Gazoo Approves Dirty Dershowitz: Zionist War Criminal with Palestinian Blood on his hands II Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Boyle, Francis A [mailto:fboyle at illinois.edu] Sent: Monday, December 23, 2013 7:28 AM To: Killeacle Subject: FW: Thankyou For Sharing Scoop.co.nz - Dershowitz Finally Retires from Harvard Law School Dershowitz Finally Retires from Harvard Law School by Francis A. Boyle December 23, 2013 I'm not going to go through the subsequent history of the Israeli divestment/disinvestment movement, except to say that in the late summer of 2002 the President of Harvard, Larry Summers accused those of us Harvard alumni involved in the Harvard divestment campaign of being anti-Semitic. After he made these charges, WBUR Radio Station in Boston, which is a National Public Radio affiliate, called me up and said: "We would like you to debate Summers for one hour on these charges, live." And I said, "I'd be happy to do so." They then called up Summers and he refused to debate me. Summers did not have the courage, the integrity, or the principles to back up his scurrilous charges. Eventually Harvard fired Summers because of his attempt to impose his Neo-Conservative agenda on Harvard, and in particular his other scurrilous charge that women are dumber than men when it comes to math and science. Well as a triple Harvard alumnus I say: Good riddance to Larry Summers! Debating Dershowitz WBUR then called me back and said, "Well, since Summers won't debate you, would you debate Alan Dershowitz?" And I said, "Sure." So we had a debate for one hour, live on the radio. And there is a link that you can hear this debate if you want to. I still think it's the best debate out there on this whole issue of Israeli apartheid. Again that would be WBUR Radio Station, Boston, 25 September 2002. The problem with the debate, of course, is that Dershowitz knows nothing about international law and human rights. So he immediately started out by saying "well, there's nothing similar to the apartheid regime in South Africa and what Israel is doing to the Palestinians." Well the problem with that is that Dershowitz did not know anything at all about even the existence of the Apartheid Convention. The definition of apartheid is set out in the Apartheid Convention of 1973. And this is taken from my book Defending Civil Resistance Under International Law, Trial Materials on South Africa, published in 1987, that we used successfully to defend anti-apartheid resistors in the United States. If you take a look at the definition of apartheid there found in Article 2, you will see that Israel has inflicted each and every act of apartheid set out in Article 2 on the Palestinians, except an outright ban on marriages between Israelis and Palestinians. But even there they have barred Palestinians living in occupied Palestine who marry Israeli citizens from moving into Israel, and thus defeat the right of family reunification that of course the world supported when Jews were emigrating from the Soviet Union. Israel: An Apartheid State Again you don't have to take my word for it. There's an excellent essay today on Counterpunch.org by the leading Israeli human rights advocate Shulamit Aloni saying basically: "Yes we have an apartheid state in Israel." Indeed, there are roads in the West Bank for Jews only. Palestinians can't ride there and now they're introducing new legislation that Jews cannot even ride Palestinians in their cars. This led my colleague and friend Professor John Duguard who was the U.N. Special rapporteur for human rights in Palestine to write an essay earlier this fall that you can get on Google, saying that in fact Israeli apartheid against the Palestinians is worse than the apartheid that the Afrikaners inflicted on the Blacks in South Africa. Professor Duguard should know. He was one of a handful of courageous, white, international lawyers living in South Africa at the time who publicly and internationally condemned apartheid against Blacks at risk to his own life. Indeed, when I was litigating anti-apartheid cases on South Africa, we used Professor Duguard's book on Human Rights and the South African Legal Order as the definitive work explaining what apartheid is all about. So Professor Duguard has recently made this statement. Of course President Carter has recently made this statement in his book that Israel is an apartheid state. And certainly if you look at that definition of the Apartheid Convention, right there in front of you, it's clear - there are objective criteria. Indeed if you read my book Palestine, Palestinians and International Law I have a Bibliography at the end with the facts right there based on reputable human rights reports, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, etc. Many of them were also compiled and discussed by my friend Professor Norman Finklestein in his book Beyond Chutzpah, which I'd encourage you to read. ENDS (c) Scoop Media inShare. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Share Scoop [mailto:promo at scoop.co.nz] Sent: Monday, December 23, 2013 7:26 AM To: Boyle, Francis A Subject: Thankyou For Sharing Scoop.co.nz - Dershowitz Finally Retires from Harvard Law School Dear fboyle This email is to confirm that you have forwarded the following link: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1312/S00180.htm To these email addresses from a form on the Scoop.co.nz website. fboyle Thanks for sharing Scoop. Please continue to visit http://Scoop.Co.Nz From fboyle at illinois.edu Fri Dec 8 13:30:54 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 13:30:54 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] News Gazoo Approves Dirty Dershowitz: Zionist War Criminal with Palestinian Blood on his hands II Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Boyle, Francis A [mailto:fboyle at illinois.edu] Sent: Monday, December 23, 2013 7:28 AM To: Killeacle Subject: FW: Thankyou For Sharing Scoop.co.nz - Dershowitz Finally Retires from Harvard Law School Dershowitz Finally Retires from Harvard Law School by Francis A. Boyle December 23, 2013 I'm not going to go through the subsequent history of the Israeli divestment/disinvestment movement, except to say that in the late summer of 2002 the President of Harvard, Larry Summers accused those of us Harvard alumni involved in the Harvard divestment campaign of being anti-Semitic. After he made these charges, WBUR Radio Station in Boston, which is a National Public Radio affiliate, called me up and said: "We would like you to debate Summers for one hour on these charges, live." And I said, "I'd be happy to do so." They then called up Summers and he refused to debate me. Summers did not have the courage, the integrity, or the principles to back up his scurrilous charges. Eventually Harvard fired Summers because of his attempt to impose his Neo-Conservative agenda on Harvard, and in particular his other scurrilous charge that women are dumber than men when it comes to math and science. Well as a triple Harvard alumnus I say: Good riddance to Larry Summers! Debating Dershowitz WBUR then called me back and said, "Well, since Summers won't debate you, would you debate Alan Dershowitz?" And I said, "Sure." So we had a debate for one hour, live on the radio. And there is a link that you can hear this debate if you want to. I still think it's the best debate out there on this whole issue of Israeli apartheid. Again that would be WBUR Radio Station, Boston, 25 September 2002. The problem with the debate, of course, is that Dershowitz knows nothing about international law and human rights. So he immediately started out by saying "well, there's nothing similar to the apartheid regime in South Africa and what Israel is doing to the Palestinians." Well the problem with that is that Dershowitz did not know anything at all about even the existence of the Apartheid Convention. The definition of apartheid is set out in the Apartheid Convention of 1973. And this is taken from my book Defending Civil Resistance Under International Law, Trial Materials on South Africa, published in 1987, that we used successfully to defend anti-apartheid resistors in the United States. If you take a look at the definition of apartheid there found in Article 2, you will see that Israel has inflicted each and every act of apartheid set out in Article 2 on the Palestinians, except an outright ban on marriages between Israelis and Palestinians. But even there they have barred Palestinians living in occupied Palestine who marry Israeli citizens from moving into Israel, and thus defeat the right of family reunification that of course the world supported when Jews were emigrating from the Soviet Union. Israel: An Apartheid State Again you don't have to take my word for it. There's an excellent essay today on Counterpunch.org by the leading Israeli human rights advocate Shulamit Aloni saying basically: "Yes we have an apartheid state in Israel." Indeed, there are roads in the West Bank for Jews only. Palestinians can't ride there and now they're introducing new legislation that Jews cannot even ride Palestinians in their cars. This led my colleague and friend Professor John Duguard who was the U.N. Special rapporteur for human rights in Palestine to write an essay earlier this fall that you can get on Google, saying that in fact Israeli apartheid against the Palestinians is worse than the apartheid that the Afrikaners inflicted on the Blacks in South Africa. Professor Duguard should know. He was one of a handful of courageous, white, international lawyers living in South Africa at the time who publicly and internationally condemned apartheid against Blacks at risk to his own life. Indeed, when I was litigating anti-apartheid cases on South Africa, we used Professor Duguard's book on Human Rights and the South African Legal Order as the definitive work explaining what apartheid is all about. So Professor Duguard has recently made this statement. Of course President Carter has recently made this statement in his book that Israel is an apartheid state. And certainly if you look at that definition of the Apartheid Convention, right there in front of you, it's clear - there are objective criteria. Indeed if you read my book Palestine, Palestinians and International Law I have a Bibliography at the end with the facts right there based on reputable human rights reports, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, etc. Many of them were also compiled and discussed by my friend Professor Norman Finklestein in his book Beyond Chutzpah, which I'd encourage you to read. ENDS (c) Scoop Media inShare. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Share Scoop [mailto:promo at scoop.co.nz] Sent: Monday, December 23, 2013 7:26 AM To: Boyle, Francis A Subject: Thankyou For Sharing Scoop.co.nz - Dershowitz Finally Retires from Harvard Law School Dear fboyle This email is to confirm that you have forwarded the following link: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1312/S00180.htm To these email addresses from a form on the Scoop.co.nz website. fboyle Thanks for sharing Scoop. Please continue to visit http://Scoop.Co.Nz From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Dec 8 18:26:50 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 18:26:50 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] "Project Censored" with Prof. Mickey Huff on Lee Camp's "Redacted" Message-ID: Revolution is around the corner….. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0G9ySfN2JU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Fri Dec 8 23:17:46 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 23:17:46 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: Site Considered for US Embassy in Jerusalem Is Stolen Palestinian Private Property | Global Research - Centre for Research on G In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 5:15 PM To: Boyle, Francis A Subject: Site Considered for US Embassy in Jerusalem Is Stolen Palestinian Private Property | Global Research - Centre for Research on G Site Considered for US Embassy in Jerusalem Is Stolen Palestinian Private Property | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization https://www.globalresearch.ca/site-considered-for-us-embassy-in-jerusalem-is-stolen-palestinian-private-property/5622030 Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Fri Dec 8 23:17:46 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 23:17:46 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: Site Considered for US Embassy in Jerusalem Is Stolen Palestinian Private Property | Global Research - Centre for Research on G In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 5:15 PM To: Boyle, Francis A Subject: Site Considered for US Embassy in Jerusalem Is Stolen Palestinian Private Property | Global Research - Centre for Research on G Site Considered for US Embassy in Jerusalem Is Stolen Palestinian Private Property | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization https://www.globalresearch.ca/site-considered-for-us-embassy-in-jerusalem-is-stolen-palestinian-private-property/5622030 Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Dec 9 02:48:03 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 20:48:03 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The poets often get there first; here's one who does Message-ID: > 'This can’t go on forever, after all. This level of full-blown mass hysteria can only be sustained for so long. It’s all fine and good to be able to whip people up into a frenzied mob, but at some point you need to have an endgame. The neoliberal ruling classes know this. Their endgame is actually fairly simple. Their plan is to (a) make an example of Trump to discourage any future billionaire idiots from screwing with their simulation of democracy, and (b) demonize anyone deviating from neoliberal ideology as a fascist, racist, or anti-Semite, or otherwise “abnormal” or “extremist.” Their plan is not to incinerate the entire planet in a war with Russia. We’re not on the brink of World War III, despite how many Twitter likes or Facebook shares it might get me to say that. Yes, eventually, they want to force Russia to return to the kind of “cooperation” it engaged in during the 1990s, when it was run by an incorrigible drunkard and the Goldman Sachs boys and their oligarch pals were looting the country for all it was worth … but that has little to do with all this. 'No, the corporate ruling classes’ endgame here is to reestablish neoliberal “normality,” so we can get back to the War on Terror (or whatever they’ll be calling it by then), and put this neo-nationalist revolt against neoliberalism episode behind us. To do that, they will need to install some sort of hopey-changey, Obama-like messiah, or at least somebody who can play the part of POTUS like a normal person and not sit around the Oval Office gobbling McDonald’s and retweeting racist memes by random British fascists. 'The way things are going, that might take a while, but rest assured they’ll get there eventually. Now that Robert Mueller has proved that Trump colluded with Vladimir Putin by obstructing an investigation by Comey into Michael Flynn’s lying to the FBI about not colluding with the Russian ambassador on behalf of Israel at Kushner’s behest, the dominoes are surely about to fall. Once they all have, and Donald Trump’s head has been mounted on a spike on the White House lawn as a warning to any other potential usurpers, all this Russia and Nazi hysteria that has the poor liberals running around like headless chickens will disappear. Russia will go back to being Russia. The North American Nazi Menace, deprived of daily media coverage, will go back to being a fringe phenomenon. Liberals will go back to ignoring politics (except identity politics, naturally) and obediently serving the global capitalist ruling elites that are destroying the planet, and the lives of millions of human beings, in order to increase their profit margins. Sure, there’ll be a brief emotional hangover, once the adrenaline rush wears off and they look back at their tweets and Facebook posts, which in hindsight might convey the impression that they spent the better part of a year parroting whatever insane propaganda the corporate media pumped out at them, and otherwise behaving like Good Americans … but then, that’s what the “delete” key is for.’ ### -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmedina67 at gmail.com Sat Dec 9 14:39:24 2017 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (kmedina67) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2017 08:39:24 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] L'Shana Haba'ah B'Yerushalayim Message-ID: <5a2bf5a1.920d240a.7c49e.b3c5@mx.google.com> The guaranteed result of Trump's Jerusalem move is perpetual war in the Middle East. -Karen Medina -------- Original message --------From: C G Estabrook Date: 12/6/17 20:29 (GMT-06:00) Suppose Trump has made his Jerusalem move as part of a 'deal' - a negotiation - to mollify Israel & the KSA - as a substitute for war with Iran (backed by Russia)? That would be sabre-rattling that might get both Bibi & MBS off his back. The Pentagon wants to threaten - not actually fight - Russia; they learnt their lesson in Syria. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Dec 9 15:54:22 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 15:54:22 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: NYT: Pat Moynihan--Scoundrel Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2017 9:48 AM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: NYT: Pat Moynihan--Scoundrel LOL! It was well known in the Harvard Gov Department that Pat Moynihan was a pretty good drinker. As one of his colleagues once told me: Pat Moynihan drunk is smarter than most members of Congress. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Dec 9 15:54:22 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 15:54:22 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: NYT: Pat Moynihan--Scoundrel Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2017 9:48 AM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: NYT: Pat Moynihan--Scoundrel LOL! It was well known in the Harvard Gov Department that Pat Moynihan was a pretty good drinker. As one of his colleagues once told me: Pat Moynihan drunk is smarter than most members of Congress. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sun Dec 10 13:45:28 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:45:28 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] David Green's letter to the editor in the News Gazette, nails it. Message-ID: Capitalism has deadly past, too Thu, 12/07/2017 - 8:06pm | The News-Gazette Bruce Kauffmann (History Lessons, Dec. 3), finding himself aroused from his American exceptionalist complacency by alleged ignorance of history among millennials, states: "Democracy and capitalism, for all their faults and inequities, have improved and saved far more lives than they have ended." This euphemistic assertion of moral relativism was occasioned by a poll in which the majority of millennials expressed a preference to live in a "Communist or Socialist nation" rather than under capitalism. So how many million massacred/cleansed Indians, enslaved Africans, incinerated Jews, and carpet-bombed and napalmed Asians does it take to make "saving lives" not OK, at least in hindsight? Such morbid apologetics and finger-wagging condescension are unbecoming, and more so from someone whose hortatory anecdotes are boring and useless to youths who — nearly three decades after the end of "Communism" — are faced with radical inequality, perpetual war, and environmental and social ravages of climate change. Capitalism triumphant — that is, wealth-hoarding, austerity-enforcing, mass-incarcerating, structurally racialized, war-making, species-destroying capitalism — is the global systemic outcome of five centuries of coercive accumulation and two-plus centuries of liberal/elitist democracy. Pardon millennial realism and idealism if they see capitalism as functioning in contradiction to "government of, by, and for the people." Pardon their admirable faith in democracy — however betrayed — to support popular movements for governmental limits on "free markets" and socialized provision of education and health care, for modest starters. Kauffmann shamelessly quotes Ronald Reagan: "If we forget what we did, we won't know who we are." Absurdity gives way to irony; irony to truth. DAVID GREEN -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sun Dec 10 18:48:47 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:48:47 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The Daily Illini in respect to the tax bill, by Gus Woods Message-ID: Search [The independent student newspaper at the University of Illinois since 1871] * NEWS»» * SPORTS»» * OPINIONS»» * LIFE & CULTURE»» * SPECIAL SECTIONS»» * LONGFORM * BUZZ * SALARY GUIDE Tax bill raises alarm among graduate students [Gus+Wood%2C+the+co-president+of+Graduate+Employees+Organization+provisions+that+the+House+bill+regarding+raising+graduate+student+taxes+would+decimate+higher+education.] ADAM ZHANG Gus Wood, the co-president of Graduate Employees Organization provisions that the House bill regarding raising graduate student taxes would decimate higher education. BY HEATHER SCHLITZ, STAFF WRITER DECEMBER 7, 2017 Filed under Around Campus, Campus, News, State Gus Wood, a fifth-year graduate student in the Department of History and co-president of the GEO, feels unheard. “The University just doesn’t like to be transparent with us, which is unfortunate because a lot of graduate students right now are freaking out all over the campus about this bill,” Wood said. He’s referring to a new provision in the House tax bill that would count tuition waivers as taxable income has sent graduate students and University officials scrambling. “If this bill goes through and the provision is included in the final version of the bill, people are going to be spending their winter break deciding whether they can continue in school,” said Bruce Kovanen, first-year Ph.D. student and chief grievance officer of the Graduate Employees Organization. “For many of us, the tuition waiver is how we got here.” According to Wojtek Chodzko-Zajko, dean of the graduate college, 6,800 students received tuition waivers in the 2016-17 school year, representing almost 60 percent of the University’s graduate student population. Currently exempt from income taxes, tuition waivers given to graduate stu=dents in exchange for work have been a staple in graduate education, making education accessible for students who would not have had the resources to afford it. A provision in the House bill would end the tax exempt status of tuition waivers, treating waived tuition money as income subject to federal income tax. “People who are making $17,000 to $20,000 would see their tax bills increase as if they were making closer to $60,000,” Kovanen said. “That’s enormous for people who are already under the living wage.” With the future of the exemption unclear as the Senate and House bills head into reconciliation– a streamlined legislative process– , graduate students and University officials worry that the passage of the provision will trigger an exodus of graduate students who would no longer be able to afford graduate education. “I believe that this will completely fracture higher education as we know it because people will no longer seek to go into graduate studies if they knew that they would not be able to afford to go there without taking out hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans,” said Wood. Citing the damaging effects the provision would have on the University of Illinois and seven other colleges in his district, Rep. Rodney Davis (R-Ill.) warned against the elimination of the exemption before voting to pass the bill with the provision still included. “By repealing this provision, middle-income individuals who rely on these reductions to obtain a college degree will be forced to pay taxes on amounts they never actually physically possess,” Davis said in a letter to the Chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee. In 2015, the University ranked among the top 10 colleges most reliant on teaching assistants, with graduate TAs teaching 19 percent of all classes, according to US News and World Report. The possibility of losing current graduate students and a decreasing applicant pool, if the provision were included in the final tax bill, could threaten the research taking place and the University’s ability to staff classes, Kovanen said. “If the House bill were to proceed as written, it would adversely impact graduate education,” Chodzko-Zajko said. “Every university that I know across the country and all of our peers are watching and studying the situation very carefully and, depending on what happens in Congress, undoubtedly the University would respond.” Wood lambasted the University’s response as lacking in enthusiasm and insufficient in addressing the alarm amongst graduate students. Negotiations between the GEO and the University over a new contract for graduate students have dragged on since March. Wood said he hopes that necessity would drive the University administration to take action. “All of the major universities are going to see a drastic deterioration to the point that some of them will close because people aren’t going to be there to do graduate work,” Wood said. “They need to do something because if they lose their workforce here because graduate students could no longer come here to work at this University, then this University will fall.” schlitz2 at dailyillini.com Correction: A previous version of this article gave the incorrect date the Graduate Student Organization began working for a contract. It occurred in March. The Daily Illini regrets this error. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Sun Dec 10 18:49:31 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:49:31 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: Anti-Tax Rally by a coalition of groups In-Reply-To: <00bc01d371e6$b73d48e0$25b7daa0$@comcast.net> References: <00bc01d371e6$b73d48e0$25b7daa0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <00d601d371e7$9f61fee0$de25fca0$@comcast.net> Hello everybody, Please join me and fellow Champaign Urbana residents this coming Saturday at 2 PM at the Federal Court House in Urbana to demonstrate that we will not accept this horrible outrage of a tax bill. Any questions please call me. David Johnson 217-721-0583 Congress is rushing through a new tax bill that will increase taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years, the largest tax increase in US history. The bill will trigger automatic cuts to Medicare and Social Security, further devastate public education, and may include a massive tax increase on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this bill will transform the economy for generations to come, leading to even more economic and racial inequality. We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, but they've shown us that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. On Saturday 12/16 at 2pm, we will join nationwide protests against the tax bill by rallying outside the federal courthouse in Urbana at 201 S. Vine St. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this cruel bill is dead! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 41349 bytes Desc: not available URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Mon Dec 11 13:42:06 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 13:42:06 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] IS THE UNITED STATES ON THE BRINK OF NUCLEAR WAR? Message-ID: Is the United States on the brink of nuclear war? 11 December 2017 In the thirteen days since North Korea tested an intercontinental ballistic missile capable of reaching large portions of North America, the United States has further escalated its war threats. • On Thursday, US ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley warned that the United States might not send athletes to participate in the 2018 Winter Olympics to be held in South Korea, because it could not guarantee their safety in the event of a war. • Last Sunday, National Security advisor H.R. McMaster warned that the threat of war between the United States and North Korea is “increasing every day.” • That same day, South Carolina Republican Senator Lindsey Graham warned that the United States is “getting close to a military conflict” with North Korea, and urged the military to remove the families of US soldiers from South Korea. These developments have been met with alarmed warnings from within the US foreign policy establishment as well as international bodies. • On Friday, the Washington Post published a chilling hypothetical narrative by Jeffrey Lewis, a scholar at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies, entitled, “This is how nuclear war with North Korea would unfold.” Lewis spelled out in hair-raising detail a scenario in which “nearly 2 million Americans, South Koreans and Japanese had died in the completely avoidable nuclear war of 2019.” • On Saturday, the New York Times warned that the Trump administration’s rhetoric on North Korea increasingly resembles that of the Bush administration in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq. The newspaper added, “Outside experts are increasingly concluding that the Trump administration’s threats may not be empty and that officials are seriously contemplating attacking North Korea and its nuclear weapons and missile arsenal.” • That same day, UN envoy Jeffrey Feltman issued a statement declaring that, after discussion with North Korean leaders, both the UN and North Korea had concluded that “the current situation was the most tense and dangerous peace and security issue in the world today,” warning, “Time is of the essence.” • On Sunday, at a ceremony to award the Nobel Peace Prize to the International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons, representatives of the group warned that “mutual destruction” between the United States and North Korea “is only one impulsive tantrum away.” • On Sunday, conservative columnist George Will strongly hinted that a US attack against North Korea would place the country in violation of international law, noting that “crimes against peace” formed the basis of the Nuremberg tribunal of Nazi war crimes. Will concluded, “The first two counts in the indictments at the 1946 Nuremberg trials concerned waging ‘aggressive war.’” Such statements underscore the profound unease and concern with which large sections of the US and international foreign policy establishment view a potential war with North Korea. As opposed to the successive wars waged against Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria, the United States has no international supporters in a potential war against North Korea. It is operating increasingly outside of the framework of international law, with flagrant indifference to the mandates of the United Nations and the consensus of its erstwhile allies. The administration’s critics within the US political establishment fear that a war against North Korea would be an unmitigated disaster for the United States in every conceivable scenario, involving the deaths, at a minimum, of hundreds of thousands of civilians on both sides of the North Korean border. Such a war would shatter whatever remains of Washington’s standing on the international arena, rendering it a pariah state. The increasingly bellicose stance toward North Korea, which threatens to engulf it in a war far more disastrous than even the invasion of Iraq, has been a leading driver of speculation over the possibility of a White House palace coup. In an article published in the current issue of Foreign Affairs, Scott D. Sagan warns that averting a potentially disastrous war with North Korea may present a substantial impetus for removing Trump from office by sections of the military. Sagan notes that, in some ways, the US standoff with North Korea is even more dangerous than the Cuban Missile crisis, when “strong civilian leaders countered the U.S. military’s dangerously hawkish instincts.” But now, “it is the senior political leadership in the United States that has made reckless threats, and it has fallen to Secretary of Defense James Mattis (a former general) and senior military officers to serve as the voices of prudence.” He adds, “If senior military leaders believe at any time that Trump is impaired, they have a duty to contact Mattis, who should then call for an emergency cabinet meeting to determine whether Trump is ‘unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office’ and thus whether to invoke the 25th Amendment.” While no one should underestimate the danger of such a military coup, the idea that the US military leadership would somehow serve to check the Trump administration’s drive to war in the Pacific is wishful thinking. Defense Secretary “Mad Dog” Mattis has threatened genocide against North Korea, warning that a war could lead to the “destruction of its people.” National Security Advisor H.R. McMaster has likewise stated that the United States is prepared to launch a “preventive,” that is, unprovoked, war against North Korea. As the United States faces an unprecedented acceleration of the breakdown of its postwar hegemony, the possibility exists that it may go to war simply to make good on the Trump administration’s threats. Meanwhile, the mounting talk of removing Trump from office through impeachment, forced resignation or the invocation of the 25th Amendment increases the pressure on the administration to seek through war a solution to the domestic political crisis gripping the United States. All of this underscores the immense danger posed by the US nuclear standoff. While there exist factional differences within the US ruling elite over the advisability of a war with North Korea, there is no antiwar faction within the ruling elite. The policy demanded by those factions opposing Trump—an escalation of the conflict with Russia—poses its own danger of an escalation into all-out world war. Far from warning of the mounting danger of war, the Democratic Party has spent the last two weeks intensifying its campaign over the Trump administration’s alleged collusion with Russia. It is simultaneously working to corrupt public consciousness with its witch hunt against “sexual misconduct” in Hollywood and on Capitol Hill, aimed at rallying an upper-middle-class constituency for its conflict with the Trump administration. The only social force capable of averting a catastrophic third world war is the international working class. This social force must be mobilized, on the basis of a socialist program, into a mass international antiwar movement, aimed at putting an end to war and the capitalist system that creates it. Andre Damon WSWS.ORG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 10:48:26 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 04:48:26 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 In-Reply-To: <00f901d36b70$dd2bc9e0$97835da0$@comcast.net> References: <1275289966.5523896.1512082034732@mail.yahoo.com> <1715360317.5525883.1512084011899@mail.yahoo.com> <00f901d36b70$dd2bc9e0$97835da0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0525C54E-D124-49D6-BAB0-6BF0829E4553@gmail.com> Here’s the sort of thing Carol was caving into, David - as you know: >. I can see little sense in voting for any state or federal incumbents in 2018. They haven’t done well; perhaps their successors will be instructed by their rejection by the voters. "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum – even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there’s free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] —CGE > On Dec 2, 2017, at 7:24 AM, David Johnson wrote: > > Really Carl ? > > Your still beating that dead horse ? > > AGAIN, yes, she didn't vote against it but she was ONE of only TWO State Reps who REFUSED to vote for it ! > > If her abstention vote had made the difference of the resolution passing or not THEN you could heap condemnation, but since that was not the case and she DID resist Israeli consulate and Dem party head Madigan's pressure to vote for it, then she deserves at least partial praise and NOT condemnation. > > David J. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:36 PM > To: Stephen Francis > Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Karen Aram > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 > > Members of AWARE and the Prairiegreens met with state representative Carol Ammons two years ago to condemn her caving in to lobbying from the Israeli consulate and not voting against direction from the government of Israel on how UI monies should be used. > > > . —CGE > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Tue Dec 12 13:52:55 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 13:52:55 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FIGHT BACK AGAINST THE TAX RIP OFF Message-ID: [Image may contain: 1 person, text] ‎Joel Reinstein‎ to Fight the Tax Rip-Off! 13 hrs · We have a flyer! Please share this widely, it'll be updated as we get more co-sponsors. If you know of a group that could co-sponsor, please contact us! And don't forget to invite your friends--- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Tue Dec 12 15:14:18 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 09:14:18 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 In-Reply-To: <0525C54E-D124-49D6-BAB0-6BF0829E4553@gmail.com> References: <1275289966.5523896.1512082034732@mail.yahoo.com> <1715360317.5525883.1512084011899@mail.yahoo.com> <00f901d36b70$dd2bc9e0$97835da0$@comcast.net> <0525C54E-D124-49D6-BAB0-6BF0829E4553@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003401d3735b$e19394c0$a4babe40$@comcast.net> Carol Ammons DID NOT “ cave “ to the Illinois BDS bill. She valiantly resisted pressure from Democratic party head Mike Madigan and the Israeli Consulate and REFUSED to vote for the bill ! I don’t care how much you try to cut and twist the facts she deserves PRAISE and NOT CONDEMNATION ! David J. From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 4:48 AM To: David Johnson Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 Here’s the sort of thing Carol was caving into, David - as you know: . I can see little sense in voting for any state or federal incumbents in 2018. They haven’t done well; perhaps their successors will be instructed by their rejection by the voters. "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum – even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there’s free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] —CGE On Dec 2, 2017, at 7:24 AM, David Johnson wrote: Really Carl ? Your still beating that dead horse ? AGAIN, yes, she didn't vote against it but she was ONE of only TWO State Reps who REFUSED to vote for it ! If her abstention vote had made the difference of the resolution passing or not THEN you could heap condemnation, but since that was not the case and she DID resist Israeli consulate and Dem party head Madigan's pressure to vote for it, then she deserves at least partial praise and NOT condemnation. David J. -----Original Message----- From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:36 PM To: Stephen Francis Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Karen Aram Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 Members of AWARE and the Prairiegreens met with state representative Carol Ammons two years ago to condemn her caving in to lobbying from the Israeli consulate and not voting against direction from the government of Israel on how UI monies should be used. . —CGE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Tue Dec 12 15:44:34 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 15:44:34 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Sweeping attack on the poor, worse than expected Message-ID: * Print * Leaflet * Feedback * Share » Trump White House preparing sweeping attack on the poor By Patrick Martin WSWS.ORG 12 December 2017 The Trump administration is preparing a frontal assault on social programs for the poorest Americans, according to a report published Monday by the Politico web site. This would involve “the most sweeping changes to federal safety net programs in a generation, using legislation and executive actions to target recipients of food stamps, Medicaid and housing benefits,” the web site said. “The White House is quietly preparing a sweeping executive order that would mandate a top-to-bottom review of the federal programs on which millions of poor Americans rely,” Politicoreported. “And GOP lawmakers are in the early stages of crafting legislation that could make it more difficult to qualify for those programs.” The executive order could be issued as soon as next month. It amounts to a political conspiracy against the poorest sections of the working class involving the White House, the congressional leadership and dozens of state governments, working together to slash spending on programs for the poor through a combination of direct benefit cuts, tightened eligibility standards and mistreatment of vulnerable families to drive as many as possible out of programs on which they now depend. The Department of Agriculture said last week it would give states greater power to limit eligibility for food stamps, which it administers, by imposing drug testing or tighter work requirements, even though the vast majority of families receiving food stamp benefits have at least one working adult. Congressional Republican leaders indicated that the attack on domestic social spending would not be limited to means-tested programs such as food stamps and Medicaid, which are available only to low-income families. The broadest entitlement programs, which provide services to all families, regardless of income, will also be targeted. House Speaker Paul Ryan told a radio interview last week, “We’re going to have to get back next year to entitlement programs.” He singled out health care, pledging not only to repeal Obamacare, an effort that failed earlier this year in the Senate, but to privatize Medicare, which he denounced as “government-run health care.” Voicing the claim endlessly repeated by Republicans that it hurts poor families to provide them access to adequate medical care or put food on the table for their children, Ryan declared, “We have a welfare system that’s basically trapping people in poverty and effectively paying people not to work.” Secretary of Agriculture Sonny Perdue sounded the same theme, calling for further cutbacks in the food stamp program, officially titled the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, or SNAP. “SNAP was created to provide people with the help they need to feed themselves and their families, but it was not intended to be a permanent lifestyle,” Perdue said. The measures being prepared by the Trump administration and congressional Republicans, behind the backs of the American people, would effectively make the poorest sections of the working class pay for the massive tax cut for the wealthy that is now in the final stages of congressional passage. Both the House and Senate have named members to participate in a special conference that will combine the different versions of a $1.5 trillion tax cut for the rich that passed the House in November and the Senate last week. All indications are that far from representing a “compromise,” the conference will choose the most reactionary measures from the House and Senate versions to produce a final bill that is substantially worse than either of the separate bills. Last Thursday, 54 House Republicans sent a letter to the House Republican leadership demanding that they stand firm on the House plan for a full repeal of the estate tax—paid by only 5,500 super-wealthy families—rather than accept the Senate plan, which retains the tax but raises the minimum size of the estate to which it would apply from $22 million to $44 million. Similarly, Senate Republicans are demanding that the conference committee accept the Senate version’s elimination of the Obamacare tax penalty for those who do not buy health insurance, an action that would destabilize the individual insurance market and leave another 13 million people without health coverage. The essence of the bill, certain to be retained in whatever version is ultimately adopted, is the lowering of taxes on the earnings of capitalists and the raising of taxes on the earnings of workers. It is class legislation of the most flagrant and reactionary kind. As an analysis of the bill in the New York Timesexplained, “for the first time since the United States adopted an income tax, a higher rate would be applied to employee wages and salaries than to income earned by proprietors, partnerships and closely held corporations.” Under these conditions, the Democratic Party has chosen to focus not on the historic nature of the attack on working people, but on a series of political scandals, first involving claims of Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election, and now involving a hunt for alleged sexual predators in the entertainment industry, the media and politics, which the Democrats hope will undermine Trump. Four Democratic senators, including Bernie Sanders, who challenged Hillary Clinton for the presidential nomination in 2016, and Kirsten Gillibrand, who is spearheading the sexual misconduct purge, have called for Trump to resign the presidency because of allegations of sexual misconduct by more than a dozen women, involving incidents spread out over three decades. It is remarkable that the Democrats do not demand that Trump resign because of the crimes his administration has committed against millions of working people—attacking social programs, slashing enforcement of safety and environmental regulations, rounding up immigrants and revoking DACA protection for nearly 1 million immigrants brought here as children—let alone Trump’s threatening the world with nuclear war in North Korea. Their focus is entirely on Trump’s personal conduct before he entered the White House, not on the policies being pursued by his administration. That is because the Democrats largely support these policies and would do so openly and enthusiastically if the same measures were being carried out by a President Hillary Clinton. Similarly, the Democratic campaign in the Senate race in Alabama, where voters go to the polls today, is focused entirely on allegations of sexual misconduct against the Republican candidate Roy Moore, dating back as much as 40 years, while the Democrats are silent on the appalling social conditions created by decades of Republican rule in the southern state. According to a United Nations Special Rapporteur on extreme poverty, who visited the state last week, Alabama has the worst poverty of any area in the developed world, including the prevalence of diseases like hookworm, normally found only in the poorest areas of sub-Saharan Africa. The UN official, Philip Alston, toured a rural community where “raw sewage flows from homes through exposed PVC pipes and into open trenches and pits,” he told an interviewer. The United States has 41 million people living below the official poverty line and the second-highest poverty rate in the developed world—below only the state of Israel, with its large super-oppressed Palestinian population. These issues are of no concern to the Democratic Party, which shares responsibility for the devastating conditions facing the working class, made significantly worse by eight years of right-wing policies under the Obama administration. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 16:33:41 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 10:33:41 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 In-Reply-To: <003401d3735b$e19394c0$a4babe40$@comcast.net> References: <1275289966.5523896.1512082034732@mail.yahoo.com> <1715360317.5525883.1512084011899@mail.yahoo.com> <00f901d36b70$dd2bc9e0$97835da0$@comcast.net> <0525C54E-D124-49D6-BAB0-6BF0829E4553@gmail.com> <003401d3735b$e19394c0$a4babe40$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2D1CA674-D02A-48F5-AEE8-C5281EC545CD@gmail.com> Come on, David. Would she have deserved praise and not condemnation if she had refused to vote against South African apartheid a generation ago? > On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:14 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Carol Ammons DID NOT “ cave “ to the Illinois BDS bill. > > She valiantly resisted pressure from Democratic party head Mike Madigan and the Israeli Consulate and REFUSED to vote for the bill ! > > I don’t care how much you try to cut and twist the facts she deserves PRAISE and NOT CONDEMNATION ! > > David J. > > From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 4:48 AM > To: David Johnson > Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 > > Here’s the sort of thing Carol was caving into, David - as you know: . > > I can see little sense in voting for any state or federal incumbents in 2018. They haven’t done well; perhaps their successors will be instructed by their rejection by the voters. > > "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum – even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there’s free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] > > —CGE > >> On Dec 2, 2017, at 7:24 AM, David Johnson wrote: >> >> Really Carl ? >> >> Your still beating that dead horse ? >> >> AGAIN, yes, she didn't vote against it but she was ONE of only TWO State Reps who REFUSED to vote for it ! >> >> If her abstention vote had made the difference of the resolution passing or not THEN you could heap condemnation, but since that was not the case and she DID resist Israeli consulate and Dem party head Madigan's pressure to vote for it, then she deserves at least partial praise and NOT condemnation. >> >> David J. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:36 PM >> To: Stephen Francis >> Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Karen Aram >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 >> >> Members of AWARE and the Prairiegreens met with state representative Carol Ammons two years ago to condemn her caving in to lobbying from the Israeli consulate and not voting against direction from the government of Israel on how UI monies should be used. >> >> >> . —CGE >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From karenaram at hotmail.com Tue Dec 12 17:05:10 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 17:05:10 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Chris Hedges, right to the point. References: Message-ID: > > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2Fi5X3NRD00FY&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cef25c0dd75504235a64708d541826022%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636486950565015423&sdata=PVWsDdJnxrEfEqJ2IB9fpFw5oHoKfNkRun3vRxzEESY%3D&reserved=0 From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Tue Dec 12 19:15:44 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 13:15:44 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 In-Reply-To: <2D1CA674-D02A-48F5-AEE8-C5281EC545CD@gmail.com> References: <1275289966.5523896.1512082034732@mail.yahoo.com> <1715360317.5525883.1512084011899@mail.yahoo.com> <00f901d36b70$dd2bc9e0$97835da0$@comcast.net> <0525C54E-D124-49D6-BAB0-6BF0829E4553@gmail.com> <003401d3735b$e19394c0$a4babe40$@comcast.net> <2D1CA674-D02A-48F5-AEE8-C5281EC545CD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c101d3737d$9c00a2f0$d401e8d0$@comcast.net> If she had resisted extreme pressure from the head of her political party and the Israeli Consulate for her to vote " yes " and had been ONE of only TWO out of several hundred who refused to vote " yes " then absolutely - YES ! If her abstention had made a difference in the bill passing or not then that would have be an entirely different scenario. David J. -----Original Message----- From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:34 AM To: David Johnson Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 Come on, David. Would she have deserved praise and not condemnation if she had refused to vote against South African apartheid a generation ago? > On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:14 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Carol Ammons DID NOT “ cave “ to the Illinois BDS bill. > > She valiantly resisted pressure from Democratic party head Mike Madigan and the Israeli Consulate and REFUSED to vote for the bill ! > > I don’t care how much you try to cut and twist the facts she deserves PRAISE and NOT CONDEMNATION ! > > David J. > > From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 4:48 AM > To: David Johnson > Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 > > Here’s the sort of thing Carol was caving into, David - as you know: . > > I can see little sense in voting for any state or federal incumbents in 2018. They haven’t done well; perhaps their successors will be instructed by their rejection by the voters. > > "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum – even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there’s free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] > > —CGE > >> On Dec 2, 2017, at 7:24 AM, David Johnson wrote: >> >> Really Carl ? >> >> Your still beating that dead horse ? >> >> AGAIN, yes, she didn't vote against it but she was ONE of only TWO State Reps who REFUSED to vote for it ! >> >> If her abstention vote had made the difference of the resolution passing or not THEN you could heap condemnation, but since that was not the case and she DID resist Israeli consulate and Dem party head Madigan's pressure to vote for it, then she deserves at least partial praise and NOT condemnation. >> >> David J. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:36 PM >> To: Stephen Francis >> Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Karen Aram >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 >> >> Members of AWARE and the Prairiegreens met with state representative Carol Ammons two years ago to condemn her caving in to lobbying from the Israeli consulate and not voting against direction from the government of Israel on how UI monies should be used. >> >> >> . —CGE >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From r-szoke at illinois.edu Tue Dec 12 19:40:32 2017 From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 19:40:32 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] History lessons Message-ID: <908C55E9-C7C0-4FA2-99B9-B94A6F62C64F@illinois.edu> One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, were tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back. So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new ones arise. — Carl Sagan From: The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark (1996), p. 241. — . . . better facts tend to be counterproductive on hot-button issues like gun control. As Tali Sharot notes in her book “The Influential Mind,” when you present people with evidence that goes against their deeply held beliefs, the evidence doesn’t sway them. Instead, they invent more reasons their prior position was actually correct. The smarter a person is, the greater his or her ability to rationalize and reinterpret discordant information, and the greater the polarizing boomerang effect is likely to be. — David Brooks, NYT online, 10/6/17 — -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 20:01:03 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 14:01:03 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] History lessons In-Reply-To: <908C55E9-C7C0-4FA2-99B9-B94A6F62C64F@illinois.edu> References: <908C55E9-C7C0-4FA2-99B9-B94A6F62C64F@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <54CD32C3-DE5A-45EE-914D-42B52A45EA6D@gmail.com> What position is this meta-analysis in aid of? Gun control? > On Dec 12, 2017, at 1:40 PM, Szoke, Ron via Peace-discuss wrote: > > One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, were tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back. So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new ones arise. > — Carl Sagan > From: The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark (1996), p. 241. > — > . . . better facts tend to be counterproductive on hot-button issues like gun control. As Tali Sharot notes in her book “The Influential Mind,” when you present people with evidence that goes against their deeply held beliefs, the evidence doesn’t sway them. Instead, they invent more reasons their prior position was actually correct. The smarter a person is, the greater his or her ability to rationalize and reinterpret discordant information, and the greater the polarizing boomerang effect is likely to be. > — David Brooks, NYT online, 10/6/17 > — From karenaram at hotmail.com Tue Dec 12 20:05:49 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 20:05:49 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] History lessons In-Reply-To: <54CD32C3-DE5A-45EE-914D-42B52A45EA6D@gmail.com> References: <908C55E9-C7C0-4FA2-99B9-B94A6F62C64F@illinois.edu> <54CD32C3-DE5A-45EE-914D-42B52A45EA6D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Does it matter Carl? Quoting David Brooks, great supporter of Bush and Obama, primarily Bush and our wars around the world, kills credibility. Though what he says, maybe true, when he chooses to say it is questionable. Brooks has blood on his hands. > > What position is this meta-analysis in aid of? Gun control? > >> On Dec 12, 2017, at 1:40 PM, Szoke, Ron via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, were tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back. So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new ones arise. >> — Carl Sagan >> From: The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark (1996), p. 241. >> — >> . . . better facts tend to be counterproductive on hot-button issues like gun control. As Tali Sharot notes in her book “The Influential Mind,” when you present people with evidence that goes against their deeply held beliefs, the evidence doesn’t sway them. Instead, they invent more reasons their prior position was actually correct. The smarter a person is, the greater his or her ability to rationalize and reinterpret discordant information, and the greater the polarizing boomerang effect is likely to be. >> — David Brooks, NYT online, 10/6/17 >> — > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ccc5d68c7cb7e4c76ccfd08d5419b2140%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636487056891746586&sdata=kHCJ9PJ1CX2lS7P4oTH2fAsemvB5qWCIzFq8ANFQwkA%3D&reserved=0 From cgestabrook at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 20:05:55 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 14:05:55 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 In-Reply-To: <00c101d3737d$9c00a2f0$d401e8d0$@comcast.net> References: <1275289966.5523896.1512082034732@mail.yahoo.com> <1715360317.5525883.1512084011899@mail.yahoo.com> <00f901d36b70$dd2bc9e0$97835da0$@comcast.net> <0525C54E-D124-49D6-BAB0-6BF0829E4553@gmail.com> <003401d3735b$e19394c0$a4babe40$@comcast.net> <2D1CA674-D02A-48F5-AEE8-C5281EC545CD@gmail.com> <00c101d3737d$9c00a2f0$d401e8d0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: It’s OK not to oppose apartheid unless you can be sure your opposition will make a difference? You’re grasping at straws, David. > On Dec 12, 2017, at 1:15 PM, David Johnson wrote: > > If she had resisted extreme pressure from the head of her political party and the Israeli Consulate for her to vote " yes " and had been ONE of only TWO out of several hundred who refused to vote " yes " then absolutely - YES ! > If her abstention had made a difference in the bill passing or not then that would have be an entirely different scenario. > > David J. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:34 AM > To: David Johnson > Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 > > Come on, David. Would she have deserved praise and not condemnation if she had refused to vote against South African apartheid a generation ago? > > >> On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:14 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> Carol Ammons DID NOT “ cave “ to the Illinois BDS bill. >> >> She valiantly resisted pressure from Democratic party head Mike Madigan and the Israeli Consulate and REFUSED to vote for the bill ! >> >> I don’t care how much you try to cut and twist the facts she deserves PRAISE and NOT CONDEMNATION ! >> >> David J. >> >> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 4:48 AM >> To: David Johnson >> Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 >> >> Here’s the sort of thing Carol was caving into, David - as you know: . >> >> I can see little sense in voting for any state or federal incumbents in 2018. They haven’t done well; perhaps their successors will be instructed by their rejection by the voters. >> >> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum – even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there’s free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] >> >> —CGE >> >>> On Dec 2, 2017, at 7:24 AM, David Johnson wrote: >>> >>> Really Carl ? >>> >>> Your still beating that dead horse ? >>> >>> AGAIN, yes, she didn't vote against it but she was ONE of only TWO State Reps who REFUSED to vote for it ! >>> >>> If her abstention vote had made the difference of the resolution passing or not THEN you could heap condemnation, but since that was not the case and she DID resist Israeli consulate and Dem party head Madigan's pressure to vote for it, then she deserves at least partial praise and NOT condemnation. >>> >>> David J. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss >>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:36 PM >>> To: Stephen Francis >>> Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Karen Aram >>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Peace-discuss Digest, Vol 166, Issue 326 >>> >>> Members of AWARE and the Prairiegreens met with state representative Carol Ammons two years ago to condemn her caving in to lobbying from the Israeli consulate and not voting against direction from the government of Israel on how UI monies should be used. >>> >>> >>> . —CGE >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > From cgestabrook at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 20:09:24 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 14:09:24 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] History lessons In-Reply-To: References: <908C55E9-C7C0-4FA2-99B9-B94A6F62C64F@illinois.edu> <54CD32C3-DE5A-45EE-914D-42B52A45EA6D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <480E303B-1E30-476C-91D3-347367CB1137@gmail.com> 'Credibility’ is overrated. Tell the truth and shame the devil. Nobody can be wrong all the time (although I admit D. Brooks comes close). > On Dec 12, 2017, at 2:05 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Does it matter Carl? > Quoting David Brooks, great supporter of Bush and Obama, primarily Bush and our wars around the world, kills credibility. Though what he says, maybe true, when he chooses to say it is questionable. Brooks has blood on his hands. > >> >> What position is this meta-analysis in aid of? Gun control? >> >>> On Dec 12, 2017, at 1:40 PM, Szoke, Ron via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, were tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back. So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new ones arise. >>> — Carl Sagan >>> From: The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark (1996), p. 241. >>> — >>> . . . better facts tend to be counterproductive on hot-button issues like gun control. As Tali Sharot notes in her book “The Influential Mind,” when you present people with evidence that goes against their deeply held beliefs, the evidence doesn’t sway them. Instead, they invent more reasons their prior position was actually correct. The smarter a person is, the greater his or her ability to rationalize and reinterpret discordant information, and the greater the polarizing boomerang effect is likely to be. >>> — David Brooks, NYT online, 10/6/17 >>> — >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ccc5d68c7cb7e4c76ccfd08d5419b2140%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636487056891746586&sdata=kHCJ9PJ1CX2lS7P4oTH2fAsemvB5qWCIzFq8ANFQwkA%3D&reserved=0 > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From cgestabrook at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 20:19:26 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 14:19:26 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] On today's AWARE ON THE AIR Message-ID: <207F0BC3-247B-4AA4-92FB-57DDB85BAEDD@gmail.com> "The Year of the Headless Liberal Chicken” According to the Chinese zodiac, 2017 has been the Year of the Rooster. Myself, I’ve decided to designate it the Year of the Headless Liberal Chicken. I don’t mean that to be insulting … or, all right, I guess I do, a little. But my heart goes out to liberals, seriously. At this point, the amount of utterly baseless, contradictory propaganda, mass hysteria, and just flat out insanity the ruling classes have demanded they swallow is more than any human mind, no matter how medicated, could possibly handle. Is it any wonder so many of them of lost it and started seeing Nazis and Russians coming out of the woodwork? Just consider what the average liberal has been forced to try to cognitively reconcile since the tragic events of last November … First came the overwhelming shock of Hillary Clinton’s loss to Trump, a repulsive, word salad-babbling buffoon with absolutely no political experience who the media had been portraying to liberals as the Second Coming of Adolf Hitler. This was a candidate, let’s recall, who jabbered about building a “beautiful wall” to protect us from the hordes of “Mexican rapists” and other “bad hombres” who were invading America, and who had boasted about grabbing women “by the pussy” like a prepubescent 6th grade boy. While he had served as a perfect foil for Clinton, and had provided hours of entertainment in a comic book villain kind of way, the prospect of a Donald Trump presidency was inconceivable in the minds of liberals. So, when it happened, it was like the Martians had invaded. Mass hysteria gripped the nation. There was beaucoup wailing and gnashing of teeth. Liberals began exhibiting irrational and, in some cases, rather disturbing behaviors. Many degenerated into dissociative states and just sat there with their phones for hours obsessively reloading the popular vote count, which Clinton had won, on FiveThirtyEight. Others festooned themselves with safety pins and went out looking for defenseless minorities who they could “demonstrate solidarity” with. Owen Jones flew in from London to join his colleague Steven Thrasher, who was organizing a guerilla force to resist “the normalization of Trump” and the global race war he was about to launch, which “not all of us were going to get out of alive.” In the weeks immediately following the election, the mainstream media inundated liberals with pronouncements of the advent of an “Age of Darkness” and the “Triumph of White Supremacy” over the beneficent values of Globalism. Yes, it was pretty much the end of everything. America was facing nothing less than a descent into “racial Orwellianism,” “Zionist anti-Semitism,” and “the bottomless pit of Fascism” itself. Liberals, who by then had dispensed with the safety pins, immediately set about terrorizing their children with visions of the impending holocaust, which would be carried out by the genocidal, racist monsters who had voted for Trump. At that point, the media had been hammering hard on the Trump-is-Hitler narrative for months, so they had to stick with that for a while. It had only been a few weeks, after all, since The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian, and numerous other establishment publications, had explained how Trump was using special fascist code words like “global elites,” “international banks,” and “lobbyists” to signal his virulent hatred of the Jews to the millions of Americans who, according to the media, were secretly Hitler-loving fascists. This initial post-election propaganda was understandably somewhat awkward, as the plan had been to be able to celebrate the “Triumph of Love over the Forces of Hate,” and the demise of the latest Hitlerian bogeyman. But this was the risk the ruling classes took when they chose to go ahead and Hitlerize Trump, which they wouldn’t have done if they’d thought for a moment that he had a chance of actually winning the election. That’s the tricky thing about Hitlerizing people. You need to be able to kill them, eventually. If you don’t, when they turn out not to be Hitler, your narrative kind of falls apart, and the people you’ve fear-mongered into a frenzy of frothing, self-righteous fake-Hitler-hatred end up feeling like a bunch of dupes who’ll believe anything the government tells them. This is why, normally, you only Hitlerize foreign despots you can kill with impunity. This is Hitlerization 101 stuff, which the ruling classes ignored in this case, which the left poor liberals terrified that Trump was actually going to start building Trump-branded death camps and rounding up the Jews. Fortunately, just in the nick of time, the ruling classes and their media mouthpieces rolled out the Russian Propaganda story. The Washington Post (whose owner’s multimillion dollar deal with the CIA, of course, has absolutely no effect on the quality of its professional journalism) led the charge with this McCarthyite smear job, legitimizing the baseless allegations of some random website and a think tank staffed by charlatans like this “Russia expert,”who appears not to speak a word of Russian or have any other “Russia expert” credentials, but is available both for television and Senate Intelligence Committee appearances. Numerous similar smear pieces followed. Liberals breathed a big sigh of relief … that Hitler business had been getting kind of scary. How long can you go, after all, with Hitler stumbling around the White House before somebody has to go in there and shoot him? In any event, by January, the media were playing down the Hitler stuff and going balls-out on the “Russiagate” story. According to The Washington Post (which, let’s remember, is a serious newspaper, as opposed to a propaganda organ of the so-called US “Intelligence Community”), not only had the Russians “hacked” the election, but they had hacked the Vermont power grid! Editorialists at The New York Times were declaring that Trump “had been appointed by Putin,” and that the USA was now “at war” with Russia. This was also around the time when liberals first learned of the Trump-Russia Dossier, which detailed how Putin was blackmailing Trump with a video the FSB had shot of Trump and a bunch of Russian hookers peeing on a bed in a Moscow hotel in which Obama had allegedly slept. This nonsense was reported completely straight-faced, and thus liberals were forced to take it seriously. Imagine the cognitive dissonance they suffered. It was like that scene in 1984 when the Party abruptly switches enemies, and the war with Eurasia becomes the war with Eastasia. Suddenly, Trump wasn’t Hitler anymore. Now he was a Russian sleeper agent who Putin had been blackmailing into destroying democracy with this incriminating “golden showers” video. Putin had presumably been “running” Trump since Trump’s visit to Russia in 2013 to hobnob with “Russia-linked” Russian businessmen and attend the Miss Universe pageant in Moscow. During the ensuing partying, Trump must have gotten loaded on Diet Coke and gotten carried away with those Russian hookers. Now, Putin had him by the short hairs and was forcing him to staff his Manchurian cabinet with corporate CEOs and Goldman Sachs guys, who probably had also been videotaped by the FSB in Moscow hotels paying hookers to pee on furniture, or performing whatever other type of seditious, perverted kink they were into. Before the poor liberals had time to process this, the ruling classes launched “the Resistance.” You remember the Pussyhat People, don’t you? And the global corporate PR campaign which accompanied their historic “Womens’ March” on Washington? Do you remember liberals like Michael Moore shrieking for the feds to arrest Donald Trump? Or publications like The New York Times, Salon, and many others, and even State Satirist Stephen Colbertaccusing Trump and anyone who supported him of treason … a crime, let’s recall, that is punishable by death? Do you remember folks like William Kristol and Rob “the Meathead” Reiner demanding that the “deep state” launch a coup against Trump to rescue America from the Russian infiltrators? Ironically, the roll-out of this “Russiagate” hysteria was so successful that it peaked too soon, and prematurely backlashed all over itself. By March, when Trump had not been arrested, nor otherwise removed from office, liberals, who by that time the corporate media had teased into an incoherent, throbbing state of anticipation were … well, rather disappointed. By April, they were exhibiting all the hallmark symptoms of clinical psychosis. This mental breakdown was due to the fact that the media pundits and government spooks who had been telling them that Trump was Hitler, and then a Russian sleeper agent, were now telling them that he wasn’t so bad, because he’d pointlessly bombed a Syrian airstrip, and dropped a $314 million Massive Ordnance Air Blast bomb on some alleged “terrorist caves” in Afghanistan. As if liberals’ poor brains weren’t rattled enough, the corporate media then switched back to, first, the Russian Propaganda narrative (which they expanded into a global threat), then, the Hitler stuff again, but this time Trump wasn’t actually Hitler, because Putin was Hitler, or at least he was fomenting Hitlerism throughout the West with his legions of fascist hacker bots who were “influencing” unsuspecting consumers with their blitzkrieg of divisive “fake news” stories. Oh, yeah, and now Putin had also done Brexit, or Trump and Robert Mercer had, but they were working for Putin, who had also hacked the French election that he hadn’t hacked, or … whatever … this was no time to worry about what had or hadn’t actually happened. The peace and prosperity President Obama had reestablished throughout the West by incessantly bombing the Greater Middle East and bailing out his pals at the Wall Street banks was being torn asunder by Vladimir Putin, who at some point had apparently metamorphosized from a ruthless, former KGB autocrat into a white supremacist megalomaniac. Right on cue, on the weekend of August 11-12 in Charlottesville, Virginia, where there had never been any history of racism, a “national gathering” of approximately five hundred tiki torch-bearing neo-Nazis, Ku Klux Klan types, and other white supremacists, many of them barking Nazi slogans, marched into the pages of history. Never before have so few fascists owed so much to the mainstream media, which showered them with overwrought coverage, triggering a national Nazi panic. Liberals poured into the streets, tearing down Confederate monuments, and otherwise signaling their total intolerance of the racism they had tolerated until a few days earlier. People named after Robert E. Lee, and horses named after General Lee’s horse, went into hiding to until the panic subsided. This was wise, as by then the so-called anti-fascists were showing up in force at anything resembling a right-wing rally and stomping the living Hitler out of Nazis, and Trump supporters, and journalists, and … well, anyone they didn’t think looked quite right. This totally preemptively self-defensive, non-violent type of violent behavior, naturally, shocked and horrified liberals, who are strongly opposed to all forms of violence that aren’t carried out by the US military, or the police, or someone else wearing a uniform. Unsure as to whom they were supposed to condemn, the Nazis or the Antifa terrorists, they turned for guidance to the corporate ruling classes, who informed them it was time to censor the Internet. This made about as much sense as any of the other nonsense they’d been spoonfed so far, so liberals decided to get behind it, or at least look the other way while it happened. Facebook, Google, Amazon, Twitter (and all the other corporations that control the Internet, the media, Hollywood, the publishing industry, and every other means of representing “reality”) surely have people’s best interests at heart. Plus, they’re only censoring the Nazis, and the terrorists, and the Russian “fake news” disseminators, and, OK, a lot of leftist publications, and award-winning journalists, and anyone else espousing “divisive,” anti-American, or anti-corporate, “extremist” views. Look, I know what you’re probably thinking, but it isn’t like liberals don’t actually care about fundamental liberal values like freedom of the press and speech and all that. It’s just that they desperately need the Democrats to take back the House and the Senate next year, so they can get on with impeaching Trump, and if they have to stand by while the corporations suppress a little leftist dissent, or, you know, transform the entire Internet into a massive, mind-numbing echo chamber of neo-McCarthyite corporate conformity … well, sacrifices have to be made. This can’t go on forever, after all. This level of full-blown mass hysteria can only be sustained for so long. It’s all fine and good to be able to whip people up into a frenzied mob, but at some point you need to have an endgame. The neoliberal ruling classes know this. Their endgame is actually fairly simple. Their plan is to (a) make an example of Trump to discourage any future billionaire idiots from screwing with their simulation of democracy, and (b) demonize anyone deviating from neoliberal ideology as a fascist, racist, or anti-Semite, or otherwise “abnormal” or “extremist.” Their plan is not to incinerate the entire planet in a war with Russia. We’re not on the brink of World War III, despite how many Twitter likes or Facebook shares it might get me to say that. Yes, eventually, they want to force Russia to return to the kind of “cooperation” it engaged in during the 1990s, when it was run by an incorrigible drunkard and the Goldman Sachs boys and their oligarch pals were looting the country for all it was worth … but that has little to do with all this. No, the corporate ruling classes’ endgame here is to reestablish neoliberal “normality,” so we can get back to the War on Terror (or whatever they’ll be calling it by then), and put this neo-nationalist revolt against neoliberalismepisode behind us. To do that, they will need to install some sort of hopey-changey, Obama-like messiah, or at least somebody who can play the part of POTUS like a normal person and not sit around the Oval Office gobbling McDonald’s and retweeting racist memes by random British fascists. The way things are going, that might take a while, but rest assured they’ll get there eventually. Now that Robert Mueller has proved that Trump colluded with Vladimir Putin by obstructing an investigation by Comey into Michael Flynn’s lying to the FBI about not colluding with the Russian ambassador on behalf of Israel at Kushner’s behest, the dominoes are surely about to fall. Once they all have, and Donald Trump’s head has been mounted on a spike on the White House lawn as a warning to any other potential usurpers, all this Russia and Nazi hysteria that has the poor liberals running around like headless chickens will disappear. Russia will go back to being Russia. The North American Nazi Menace, deprived of daily media coverage, will go back to being a fringe phenomenon. Liberals will go back to ignoring politics (except identity politics, naturally) and obediently serving the global capitalist ruling elites that are destroying the planet, and the lives of millions of human beings, in order to increase their profit margins. Sure, there’ll be a brief emotional hangover, once the adrenaline rush wears off and they look back at their tweets and Facebook posts, which in hindsight might convey the impression that they spent the better part of a year parroting whatever insane propaganda the corporate media pumped out at them, and otherwise behaving like Good Americans … but then, that’s what the “delete” key is for. --CJ HOPKINS > C. J. Hopkins is an award-winning American playwright, novelist and satirist based in Berlin. His plays are published by Bloomsbury Publishing (UK) and Broadway Play Publishing (USA). His debut novel, ZONE 23, is published by Snoggsworthy, Swaine & Cormorant. He can reached at cjhopkins.com or consentfactory.org. ### -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Tue Dec 12 21:10:36 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 21:10:36 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?FW=3A_Trump=E2=80=99s_Lethal_Decision_o?= =?utf-8?q?n_Jerusalem_=E2=80=93_Consortiumnews?= References: Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 3:08 PM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: FW: Trump’s Lethal Decision on Jerusalem – Consortiumnews Trump’s Lethal Decision on Jerusalem December 12, 2017 Save President Trump has won praise from Christian Zionists and many staunch supporters of Israel for declaring Jerusalem Israel’s capital, but critics say it only makes peace a more distant goal, reports Dennis J Bernstein. By Dennis J Bernstein Protests have broken out across the Middle East against President Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital — and Western critics complain that the move adds one more brick in the wall against the prospects for peace. Professor Francis Boyle, who teaches international law at the University of Illinois College of Law and served as a long-time legal adviser to the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), calls Trump’s announcement a “symbolic but still critical step in Israeli designs to control not just Jerusalem, but all of historic Palestine.” I spoke with Boyle on Dec. 6. [https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/8236191472_a73f8d5647_b-300x202.jpg] Graffiti on Israel’s wall in Bethlehem, West Bank. April 16, 2011. (Flickr Montecruz Foto) Dennis Bernstein: What was your initial response to the announcement by President Trump that the United States will be moving its embassy to Jerusalem? Francis Boyle: It is always a sad day when you know that people are going to die. It is a defeat for the human spirit. In the last intifada [September 2000-February 2005], about 3,000 Palestinians died and 1,000 Israelis. I don’t know what will happen this time. The Palestinians have called for “three days of rage.” Trump could very well set off a third intifada here. Dennis Bernstein: Trump says this doesn’t get in the way of the US being an honest broker, that the vision is for peace. From the legal perspective, how do you see this? Francis Boyle: First of all, the United States has never been an honest broker here. I was legal advisor to the Palestinian delegation to the Middle East Peace Negotiations from 1991, when they began, to the signing of Oslo. It was very clear that the United States was always serving as Israel’s lawyer. You had Miller, Ross, and Kurtzer, all three American Jews, two of them orthodox. The Palestinians had to go hat-in-hand to present their case to American Jews. Nothing has changed: We now have Kushner, Greenblatt and Friedman, all three of whom are orthodox Jews. The whole thing has been preposterous from the beginning. We have always been in favor of Israel, using lies, threats and intimidation to force the Palestinians to accept whatever the Israelis are giving them. That is international diplomacy for you, conducted by the United States, not only in the Middle East but all over the world. Dennis Bernstein: Would you say that what is going on here is not just Israel trying to control Jerusalem but all of Palestine? Francis Boyle: That has always been Israel’s policy. I had a conversation with the chair of the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East peace negotiations. He told me that the Zionists have not changed their position since the Basel Convention of 1897. They want all of Palestine. What is happening now in Jerusalem is a step in that direction. If you look at the recently leaked so-called peace plan that was presented to [Palestinian President Mahmoud] Abbas in Saudi Arabia, he was basically given an ultimatum to either accept some tiny bantustan or forget it. It is very clear that they want all of Palestine, all of the West Bank, all of Jerusalem. They want the Golan Heights and maybe even some more of Syria. [https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/36747062994_cefbdf8974_b-300x200.jpg] President Donald J. Trump and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel at the United Nations General Assembly (Official White House Photo by Shealah Craighead) Dennis Bernstein: We have revelations now that Jared Kushner, our chief peace negotiator in the Middle East, failed to disclose in ethics filings his role as director of a family foundation that funded Israeli settlements. Do you think that is a problem? Francis Boyle: Of course, because basically he is aiding and abetting war crimes and crimes against humanity in Palestine. Dennis Bernstein: Is the United States participating in illegal actions in Israel, or doesn’t it matter anymore? Francis Boyle: For most of the Arab and Muslim world, it matters. Here in the United States, apart from the BDS movement, we have basically thrown in our lot with the Israeli government. Congress has been bought and paid for by the Israel lobby. During his campaign, Trump made explicit promises in order to secure Jewish funding and votes. We arm, equip, supply and train Israel. What is going on in Gaza right now is a form of genocide. They are being strangled to death. The 1948 Genocide Convention, to which both Israel and the United States are parties, says that “deliberately inflicting on a people conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction in whole or in part” is genocide. That is exactly what is going on in Gaza today. Dennis Bernstein: How would you assess the situation now? Is a two-state solution at all viable? Francis Boyle: That is for the Palestinians to decide. Their right of self determination is at stake here. As of today, their official position is two states with their capital in East Jerusalem. There have been hints that they might go back to the one-state solution, which was their position before the Palestinian Declaration of Independence of December 15, 1988, when they officially accepted a two-state solution. Since then they have gotten nothing. Every day Israel just steals more land and drives out more Palestinians. Dennis Bernstein: Are there any options for the Palestinians in the international arena, for example, at the United Nations? Francis Boyle: I have advised them to invoke the “Uniting for Peace” resolution adopted by the general assembly in 1950, so that they can be admitted to the UN General Assembly as a full-fledged UN member state, recognizing their capital as East Jerusalem. And, as you know, after Palestine became a UN observer state, you and I discussed the concept of a “legal intifada” that the Palestinians could pursue. [https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/idfsoldierinnablus2002-300x211.jpg] Israel Defense Force soldiers patrolling Nablus during the Second Intifada in 2002. (Photo credit: Israel Defense Forces) My advice to the Palestinians is a full-court press in all specialized United Nations agencies and affiliated organizations, using all available legal mechanisms. This would include suing Israel at the International Court of Justice, which I have offered to do for them. And of course they have filed a complaint against Israel for war crimes and crimes against humanity before the International Criminal Court. According to press reports, they are meeting right now to decide what to do and President Abbas will soon be addressing the Palestinian people. Dennis Bernstein: I suppose it is important to emphasize the fact that this could turn very violent. Francis Boyle: I am afraid so. This could turn into the third intifada. The First Intifada, which took place in 1987, was spontaneous. The Second Intifada [September 2000-February 2005] was provoked when Ariel Sharon went to the Al-Aqsa mosque with a couple hundred soldiers. Eventually, about 3,000 Palestinians lost their lives as a result. Now we have Trump provoking the situation. His people, including Bannon and Flynn, know exactly what they are doing. They believe in Sam Huntington’s concept of “the clash of civilizations.” They truly believe that they are leading a crusade against the Muslim world. This is being done very deliberately. Dennis J Bernstein is a host of “Flashpoints” on the Pacifica radio network and the author of Special Ed: Voices from a Hidden Classroom. You can access the audio archives at www.flashpoints.net. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 3:03 PM To: Boyle, Francis A > Subject: Trump’s Lethal Decision on Jerusalem – Consortiumnews [https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/8236191472_a73f8d5647_b.jpg] Trump's Lethal Decision on Jerusalem President Trump has won praise from Christian Zionists and many staunch supporters of Israel for declaring Jerusalem Israel's capital, but critics say it only makes peace a more distant goal, reports Dennis J Bernstein. By Dennis J Bernstein Protests have broken out across the Middle https://consortiumnews.com/2017/12/12/trumps-lethal-decision-on-jerusalem/ Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16176 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19608 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26346 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Tue Dec 12 21:10:36 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 21:10:36 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?FW=3A_Trump=E2=80=99s_Lethal_Decision_o?= =?utf-8?q?n_Jerusalem_=E2=80=93_Consortiumnews?= References: Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 3:08 PM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: FW: Trump’s Lethal Decision on Jerusalem – Consortiumnews Trump’s Lethal Decision on Jerusalem December 12, 2017 Save President Trump has won praise from Christian Zionists and many staunch supporters of Israel for declaring Jerusalem Israel’s capital, but critics say it only makes peace a more distant goal, reports Dennis J Bernstein. By Dennis J Bernstein Protests have broken out across the Middle East against President Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital — and Western critics complain that the move adds one more brick in the wall against the prospects for peace. Professor Francis Boyle, who teaches international law at the University of Illinois College of Law and served as a long-time legal adviser to the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), calls Trump’s announcement a “symbolic but still critical step in Israeli designs to control not just Jerusalem, but all of historic Palestine.” I spoke with Boyle on Dec. 6. [https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/8236191472_a73f8d5647_b-300x202.jpg] Graffiti on Israel’s wall in Bethlehem, West Bank. April 16, 2011. (Flickr Montecruz Foto) Dennis Bernstein: What was your initial response to the announcement by President Trump that the United States will be moving its embassy to Jerusalem? Francis Boyle: It is always a sad day when you know that people are going to die. It is a defeat for the human spirit. In the last intifada [September 2000-February 2005], about 3,000 Palestinians died and 1,000 Israelis. I don’t know what will happen this time. The Palestinians have called for “three days of rage.” Trump could very well set off a third intifada here. Dennis Bernstein: Trump says this doesn’t get in the way of the US being an honest broker, that the vision is for peace. From the legal perspective, how do you see this? Francis Boyle: First of all, the United States has never been an honest broker here. I was legal advisor to the Palestinian delegation to the Middle East Peace Negotiations from 1991, when they began, to the signing of Oslo. It was very clear that the United States was always serving as Israel’s lawyer. You had Miller, Ross, and Kurtzer, all three American Jews, two of them orthodox. The Palestinians had to go hat-in-hand to present their case to American Jews. Nothing has changed: We now have Kushner, Greenblatt and Friedman, all three of whom are orthodox Jews. The whole thing has been preposterous from the beginning. We have always been in favor of Israel, using lies, threats and intimidation to force the Palestinians to accept whatever the Israelis are giving them. That is international diplomacy for you, conducted by the United States, not only in the Middle East but all over the world. Dennis Bernstein: Would you say that what is going on here is not just Israel trying to control Jerusalem but all of Palestine? Francis Boyle: That has always been Israel’s policy. I had a conversation with the chair of the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East peace negotiations. He told me that the Zionists have not changed their position since the Basel Convention of 1897. They want all of Palestine. What is happening now in Jerusalem is a step in that direction. If you look at the recently leaked so-called peace plan that was presented to [Palestinian President Mahmoud] Abbas in Saudi Arabia, he was basically given an ultimatum to either accept some tiny bantustan or forget it. It is very clear that they want all of Palestine, all of the West Bank, all of Jerusalem. They want the Golan Heights and maybe even some more of Syria. [https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/36747062994_cefbdf8974_b-300x200.jpg] President Donald J. Trump and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel at the United Nations General Assembly (Official White House Photo by Shealah Craighead) Dennis Bernstein: We have revelations now that Jared Kushner, our chief peace negotiator in the Middle East, failed to disclose in ethics filings his role as director of a family foundation that funded Israeli settlements. Do you think that is a problem? Francis Boyle: Of course, because basically he is aiding and abetting war crimes and crimes against humanity in Palestine. Dennis Bernstein: Is the United States participating in illegal actions in Israel, or doesn’t it matter anymore? Francis Boyle: For most of the Arab and Muslim world, it matters. Here in the United States, apart from the BDS movement, we have basically thrown in our lot with the Israeli government. Congress has been bought and paid for by the Israel lobby. During his campaign, Trump made explicit promises in order to secure Jewish funding and votes. We arm, equip, supply and train Israel. What is going on in Gaza right now is a form of genocide. They are being strangled to death. The 1948 Genocide Convention, to which both Israel and the United States are parties, says that “deliberately inflicting on a people conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction in whole or in part” is genocide. That is exactly what is going on in Gaza today. Dennis Bernstein: How would you assess the situation now? Is a two-state solution at all viable? Francis Boyle: That is for the Palestinians to decide. Their right of self determination is at stake here. As of today, their official position is two states with their capital in East Jerusalem. There have been hints that they might go back to the one-state solution, which was their position before the Palestinian Declaration of Independence of December 15, 1988, when they officially accepted a two-state solution. Since then they have gotten nothing. Every day Israel just steals more land and drives out more Palestinians. Dennis Bernstein: Are there any options for the Palestinians in the international arena, for example, at the United Nations? Francis Boyle: I have advised them to invoke the “Uniting for Peace” resolution adopted by the general assembly in 1950, so that they can be admitted to the UN General Assembly as a full-fledged UN member state, recognizing their capital as East Jerusalem. And, as you know, after Palestine became a UN observer state, you and I discussed the concept of a “legal intifada” that the Palestinians could pursue. [https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/idfsoldierinnablus2002-300x211.jpg] Israel Defense Force soldiers patrolling Nablus during the Second Intifada in 2002. (Photo credit: Israel Defense Forces) My advice to the Palestinians is a full-court press in all specialized United Nations agencies and affiliated organizations, using all available legal mechanisms. This would include suing Israel at the International Court of Justice, which I have offered to do for them. And of course they have filed a complaint against Israel for war crimes and crimes against humanity before the International Criminal Court. According to press reports, they are meeting right now to decide what to do and President Abbas will soon be addressing the Palestinian people. Dennis Bernstein: I suppose it is important to emphasize the fact that this could turn very violent. Francis Boyle: I am afraid so. This could turn into the third intifada. The First Intifada, which took place in 1987, was spontaneous. The Second Intifada [September 2000-February 2005] was provoked when Ariel Sharon went to the Al-Aqsa mosque with a couple hundred soldiers. Eventually, about 3,000 Palestinians lost their lives as a result. Now we have Trump provoking the situation. His people, including Bannon and Flynn, know exactly what they are doing. They believe in Sam Huntington’s concept of “the clash of civilizations.” They truly believe that they are leading a crusade against the Muslim world. This is being done very deliberately. Dennis J Bernstein is a host of “Flashpoints” on the Pacifica radio network and the author of Special Ed: Voices from a Hidden Classroom. You can access the audio archives at www.flashpoints.net. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 3:03 PM To: Boyle, Francis A > Subject: Trump’s Lethal Decision on Jerusalem – Consortiumnews [https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/8236191472_a73f8d5647_b.jpg] Trump's Lethal Decision on Jerusalem President Trump has won praise from Christian Zionists and many staunch supporters of Israel for declaring Jerusalem Israel's capital, but critics say it only makes peace a more distant goal, reports Dennis J Bernstein. By Dennis J Bernstein Protests have broken out across the Middle https://consortiumnews.com/2017/12/12/trumps-lethal-decision-on-jerusalem/ Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16176 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19608 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26346 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Dec 13 23:40:18 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 23:40:18 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The Green Party on the tax bill Message-ID: "Greens dismiss "trickle-down economics," which Republicans use to justify the bill, as a scam designed to further enrich the wealthy and corporate sector at the expense of working people and those who really on essential human services. The bill was drafted with the help of more than 6,000 corporate lobbyists. The Green Party has said that the best way to alleviate the deficit and provide tax relief to middle- and low-income Americans is a drastic reduction in the bloated and wasteful military budget -- $598.5 billion in Fiscal Year 2015, which accounted for 54% of all federal discretionary spending. Both major parties are responsible for the size of the military budget, which is ten times larger than Russia's. In July, 60% of House Democrats voted for a nearly $700 billion defense budget that was far bigger than President Trump's proposal. On Tuesday, Dec. 12, Mr. Trump signed the bill authorizing the budget for that amount.” -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 00:41:21 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 18:41:21 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The Green Party on the tax bill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57D293CB-5162-4FE0-AA6E-E4D140F19AF3@gmail.com> Will the tax rally on Saturday call for not supporting any incumbents, state and federal, in 2018? They haven’t done well, and perhaps if they’re displaced, their successors will take the lesson. —CGE > On Dec 13, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > "Greens dismiss "trickle-down economics," which Republicans use to justify the bill, as a scam designed to further enrich the wealthy and corporate sector at the expense of working people and those who really on essential human services. The bill was drafted with the help of more than 6,000 corporate lobbyists. > > The Green Party has said that the best way to alleviate the deficit and provide tax relief to middle- and low-income Americans is a drastic reduction in the bloated and wasteful military budget -- $598.5 billion in Fiscal Year 2015, which accounted for 54% of all federal discretionary spending. > > Both major parties are responsible for the size of the military budget, which is ten times larger than Russia's. In July, 60% of House Democrats voted for a nearly $700 billion defense budget that was far bigger than President Trump's proposal. On Tuesday, Dec. 12, Mr. Trump signed the bill authorizing the budget for that amount.” > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 14 00:54:18 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 00:54:18 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The Green Party on the tax bill In-Reply-To: <57D293CB-5162-4FE0-AA6E-E4D140F19AF3@gmail.com> References: <57D293CB-5162-4FE0-AA6E-E4D140F19AF3@gmail.com> Message-ID: The rally, isn’t about electoral politics, and if the weather is as today, the speeches will be brief. David Enstrom as the speaker on behalf of the “Greens” is going to focus on the “environment in relation to the tax bill.” > On Dec 13, 2017, at 16:41, C G Estabrook wrote: > > Will the tax rally on Saturday call for not supporting any incumbents, state and federal, in 2018? > > They haven’t done well, and perhaps if they’re displaced, their successors will take the lesson. > > —CGE > > >> On Dec 13, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> "Greens dismiss "trickle-down economics," which Republicans use to justify the bill, as a scam designed to further enrich the wealthy and corporate sector at the expense of working people and those who really on essential human services. The bill was drafted with the help of more than 6,000 corporate lobbyists. >> >> The Green Party has said that the best way to alleviate the deficit and provide tax relief to middle- and low-income Americans is a drastic reduction in the bloated and wasteful military budget -- $598.5 billion in Fiscal Year 2015, which accounted for 54% of all federal discretionary spending. >> >> Both major parties are responsible for the size of the military budget, which is ten times larger than Russia's. In July, 60% of House Democrats voted for a nearly $700 billion defense budget that was far bigger than President Trump's proposal. On Tuesday, Dec. 12, Mr. Trump signed the bill authorizing the budget for that amount.” >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4cf5af4b417946a0df1908d5428b6bb0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488088922705134&sdata=XlytuVKdkBzJKWPL9rkSrRlX%2FL59ONTP0jmHrEqcO48%3D&reserved=0 From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 14 01:00:03 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 01:00:03 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The Green Party on the tax bill In-Reply-To: References: <57D293CB-5162-4FE0-AA6E-E4D140F19AF3@gmail.com> Message-ID: The info that Rich provided below, in relation to the Green Party, and defunding the military, the same thing many of us have been saying, might be a good ending to his speech. "End wars and destruction, save the planet.” > On Dec 13, 2017, at 16:54, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > The rally, isn’t about electoral politics, and if the weather is as today, the speeches will be brief. David Enstrom as the speaker on behalf of the “Greens” is going to focus on the “environment in relation to the tax bill.” > > >> On Dec 13, 2017, at 16:41, C G Estabrook wrote: >> >> Will the tax rally on Saturday call for not supporting any incumbents, state and federal, in 2018? >> >> They haven’t done well, and perhaps if they’re displaced, their successors will take the lesson. >> >> —CGE >> >> >>> On Dec 13, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> "Greens dismiss "trickle-down economics," which Republicans use to justify the bill, as a scam designed to further enrich the wealthy and corporate sector at the expense of working people and those who really on essential human services. The bill was drafted with the help of more than 6,000 corporate lobbyists. >>> >>> The Green Party has said that the best way to alleviate the deficit and provide tax relief to middle- and low-income Americans is a drastic reduction in the bloated and wasteful military budget -- $598.5 billion in Fiscal Year 2015, which accounted for 54% of all federal discretionary spending. >>> >>> Both major parties are responsible for the size of the military budget, which is ten times larger than Russia's. In July, 60% of House Democrats voted for a nearly $700 billion defense budget that was far bigger than President Trump's proposal. On Tuesday, Dec. 12, Mr. Trump signed the bill authorizing the budget for that amount.” >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4cf5af4b417946a0df1908d5428b6bb0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488088922705134&sdata=XlytuVKdkBzJKWPL9rkSrRlX%2FL59ONTP0jmHrEqcO48%3D&reserved=0 > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb17c2d2f8cf84c72a62208d5428d4177%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488096810287358&sdata=autI2I5Pt7fgW9lv4cOR7A%2Fo57o0a9w7TiYxdua0224%3D&reserved=0 From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 01:57:44 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 19:57:44 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The Green Party on the tax bill In-Reply-To: References: <57D293CB-5162-4FE0-AA6E-E4D140F19AF3@gmail.com> Message-ID: If it isn’t about electoral politics, isn’t it and similar bravings of the cold likely to be as ineffectual as, say, the ‘Women’s March’ in January? Why should any elected official, Republican or Democrat, care? Mais où sont les neiges d’antan? > On Dec 13, 2017, at 6:54 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > The rally, isn’t about electoral politics, and if the weather is as today, the speeches will be brief. David Enstrom as the speaker on behalf of the “Greens” is going to focus on the “environment in relation to the tax bill.” > > >> On Dec 13, 2017, at 16:41, C G Estabrook wrote: >> >> Will the tax rally on Saturday call for not supporting any incumbents, state and federal, in 2018? >> >> They haven’t done well, and perhaps if they’re displaced, their successors will take the lesson. >> >> —CGE >> >> >>> On Dec 13, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> "Greens dismiss "trickle-down economics," which Republicans use to justify the bill, as a scam designed to further enrich the wealthy and corporate sector at the expense of working people and those who really on essential human services. The bill was drafted with the help of more than 6,000 corporate lobbyists. >>> >>> The Green Party has said that the best way to alleviate the deficit and provide tax relief to middle- and low-income Americans is a drastic reduction in the bloated and wasteful military budget -- $598.5 billion in Fiscal Year 2015, which accounted for 54% of all federal discretionary spending. >>> >>> Both major parties are responsible for the size of the military budget, which is ten times larger than Russia's. In July, 60% of House Democrats voted for a nearly $700 billion defense budget that was far bigger than President Trump's proposal. On Tuesday, Dec. 12, Mr. Trump signed the bill authorizing the budget for that amount.” >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4cf5af4b417946a0df1908d5428b6bb0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488088922705134&sdata=XlytuVKdkBzJKWPL9rkSrRlX%2FL59ONTP0jmHrEqcO48%3D&reserved=0 > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From stuartnlevy at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 03:46:46 2017 From: stuartnlevy at gmail.com (Stuart Levy) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 21:46:46 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The Green Party on the tax bill In-Reply-To: <57D293CB-5162-4FE0-AA6E-E4D140F19AF3@gmail.com> References: <57D293CB-5162-4FE0-AA6E-E4D140F19AF3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2bfe1ee4-1dfb-9799-8b93-ed40bf65d848@gmail.com> That won't be the reason I'll be going to Saturday's rally. On 12/13/2017 06:41 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > Will the tax rally on Saturday call for not supporting any incumbents, state and federal, in 2018? > > They haven’t done well, and perhaps if they’re displaced, their successors will take the lesson. > > —CGE > > >> On Dec 13, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> "Greens dismiss "trickle-down economics," which Republicans use to justify the bill, as a scam designed to further enrich the wealthy and corporate sector at the expense of working people and those who really on essential human services. The bill was drafted with the help of more than 6,000 corporate lobbyists. >> >> The Green Party has said that the best way to alleviate the deficit and provide tax relief to middle- and low-income Americans is a drastic reduction in the bloated and wasteful military budget -- $598.5 billion in Fiscal Year 2015, which accounted for 54% of all federal discretionary spending. >> >> Both major parties are responsible for the size of the military budget, which is ten times larger than Russia's. In July, 60% of House Democrats voted for a nearly $700 billion defense budget that was far bigger than President Trump's proposal. On Tuesday, Dec. 12, Mr. Trump signed the bill authorizing the budget for that amount.” >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 04:19:45 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 22:19:45 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The Green Party on the tax bill In-Reply-To: <2bfe1ee4-1dfb-9799-8b93-ed40bf65d848@gmail.com> References: <57D293CB-5162-4FE0-AA6E-E4D140F19AF3@gmail.com> <2bfe1ee4-1dfb-9799-8b93-ed40bf65d848@gmail.com> Message-ID: What will be the reason? From Tom Stoppard, “The Real Thing,” where the characters argue about the reasons for going to a political meeting (of the 'Justice for Brodie Committee’): “... HENRY. Perhaps one of us is worried that his image is getting a bit too right-of-centre. Another is in love with a committee member and wishes to gain her approval… CHARLOTTE. Which one are you? HENRY. You think I’m kidding, but I’m not. Public postures have the configuration of private derangement. MAX. Who said that? HENRY. I did, you fool. MAX. I mean first. HENRY. Oh, first. (to ANNIE) Take him off to your meeting., I’m sick of him. ANNIE. He’s not coming…" —CGE > On Dec 13, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss wrote: > > That won't be the reason I'll be going to Saturday's rally. > > On 12/13/2017 06:41 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >> Will the tax rally on Saturday call for not supporting any incumbents, state and federal, in 2018? >> >> They haven’t done well, and perhaps if they’re displaced, their successors will take the lesson. >> >> —CGE >> >> >>> On Dec 13, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> "Greens dismiss "trickle-down economics," which Republicans use to justify the bill, as a scam designed to further enrich the wealthy and corporate sector at the expense of working people and those who really on essential human services. The bill was drafted with the help of more than 6,000 corporate lobbyists. >>> >>> The Green Party has said that the best way to alleviate the deficit and provide tax relief to middle- and low-income Americans is a drastic reduction in the bloated and wasteful military budget -- $598.5 billion in Fiscal Year 2015, which accounted for 54% of all federal discretionary spending. >>> >>> Both major parties are responsible for the size of the military budget, which is ten times larger than Russia's. In July, 60% of House Democrats voted for a nearly $700 billion defense budget that was far bigger than President Trump's proposal. On Tuesday, Dec. 12, Mr. Trump signed the bill authorizing the budget for that amount.” >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 11:57:07 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 05:57:07 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Eminent sense: joy in the morning Message-ID: <70A7F0CA-5D33-4475-B550-F78AEBF597AB@gmail.com> https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/anti-trumpism-is-anti-progressivism-in-disguise-9e688e6152e9 http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/bad-moon-rising/ —CGE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 14 13:08:58 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 13:08:58 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Eminent sense: joy in the morning In-Reply-To: <70A7F0CA-5D33-4475-B550-F78AEBF597AB@gmail.com> References: <70A7F0CA-5D33-4475-B550-F78AEBF597AB@gmail.com> Message-ID: I couldn’t agree more, with what Caitlin Johnstone is saying as it pertains to focus on Trump, but ignoring the issues confronting us, such as the “tax bill” the movement of the US Embassy to Jerusalem, the further destruction of healthcare, education, the environment, continuing wars, especially in Yemen, Somalia, and being pumped up on the African continent, and just focusing on “stop bashing Trump” isn’t the answer either. On Dec 14, 2017, at 03:57, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/anti-trumpism-is-anti-progressivism-in-disguise-9e688e6152e9 http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/bad-moon-rising/ —CGE _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C15c2c14c51c9444e3b8a08d542e9dd47%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488494558921598&sdata=hC26uodVDK4%2FxH%2FZ4zXRu3Qw1w9fnveCXpUVEZ2AfMI%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 14 13:16:46 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 13:16:46 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The Green Party on the tax bill In-Reply-To: References: <57D293CB-5162-4FE0-AA6E-E4D140F19AF3@gmail.com> <2bfe1ee4-1dfb-9799-8b93-ed40bf65d848@gmail.com> Message-ID: Informing and uniting the American people, standing up to the Oligarchs controlling this country, speaking out against that which is “wrong,” begins locally. Doing nothing isn’t the answer. Sorry you won’t join us, and disappointed that you won’t support us, and continue to discourage us. On Dec 13, 2017, at 20:19, C G Estabrook > wrote: What will be the reason? From Tom Stoppard, “The Real Thing,” where the characters argue about the reasons for going to a political meeting (of the 'Justice for Brodie Committee’): “... HENRY. Perhaps one of us is worried that his image is getting a bit too right-of-centre. Another is in love with a committee member and wishes to gain her approval… CHARLOTTE. Which one are you? HENRY. You think I’m kidding, but I’m not. Public postures have the configuration of private derangement. MAX. Who said that? HENRY. I did, you fool. MAX. I mean first. HENRY. Oh, first. (to ANNIE) Take him off to your meeting., I’m sick of him. ANNIE. He’s not coming…" —CGE On Dec 13, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss > wrote: That won't be the reason I'll be going to Saturday's rally. On 12/13/2017 06:41 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: Will the tax rally on Saturday call for not supporting any incumbents, state and federal, in 2018? They haven’t done well, and perhaps if they’re displaced, their successors will take the lesson. —CGE On Dec 13, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: "Greens dismiss "trickle-down economics," which Republicans use to justify the bill, as a scam designed to further enrich the wealthy and corporate sector at the expense of working people and those who really on essential human services. The bill was drafted with the help of more than 6,000 corporate lobbyists. The Green Party has said that the best way to alleviate the deficit and provide tax relief to middle- and low-income Americans is a drastic reduction in the bloated and wasteful military budget -- $598.5 billion in Fiscal Year 2015, which accounted for 54% of all federal discretionary spending. Both major parties are responsible for the size of the military budget, which is ten times larger than Russia's. In July, 60% of House Democrats voted for a nearly $700 billion defense budget that was far bigger than President Trump's proposal. On Tuesday, Dec. 12, Mr. Trump signed the bill authorizing the budget for that amount.” _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 14:46:31 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 08:46:31 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The Green Party on the tax bill In-Reply-To: References: <57D293CB-5162-4FE0-AA6E-E4D140F19AF3@gmail.com> <2bfe1ee4-1dfb-9799-8b93-ed40bf65d848@gmail.com> Message-ID: <794F88A6-78AF-46C0-854A-698DEE89399E@gmail.com> Who’s “us”? I’ll be at the rally (if my blood can take it). I wanted to know the reason for it, since you say the rally isn’t about electoral politics. Isn’t it then (the wonderfully-named) ‘virtue-signalling’? Identity politics has substituted hysterical posturing about discrimination (against the poor, as well other groups) as a cover for accepting real exploitation - accelerating inequality and austerity, for the benefit of the rich. —CGE > On Dec 14, 2017, at 7:16 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Informing and uniting the American people, standing up to the Oligarchs controlling this country, speaking out against that which is “wrong,” begins locally. > > Doing nothing isn’t the answer. > > Sorry you won’t join us, and disappointed that you won’t support us, and continue to discourage us. > > >> On Dec 13, 2017, at 20:19, C G Estabrook > wrote: >> >> What will be the reason? >> >> From Tom Stoppard, “The Real Thing,” where the characters argue about the reasons for going to a political meeting (of the 'Justice for Brodie Committee’): >> >> “... >> HENRY. Perhaps one of us is worried that his image is getting a bit too right-of-centre. Another is in love with a committee member and wishes to gain her approval… >> CHARLOTTE. Which one are you? >> HENRY. You think I’m kidding, but I’m not. Public postures have the configuration of private derangement. >> MAX. Who said that? >> HENRY. I did, you fool. >> MAX. I mean first. >> HENRY. Oh, first. (to ANNIE) Take him off to your meeting., I’m sick of him. >> ANNIE. He’s not coming…" >> >> —CGE >> >> >> On Dec 13, 2017, at 6:54 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: The rally, isn’t about electoral politics... >>> On Dec 13, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>> >>> That won't be the reason I'll be going to Saturday's rally. >>> >>> On 12/13/2017 06:41 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> Will the tax rally on Saturday call for not supporting any incumbents, state and federal, in 2018? >>>> >>>> They haven’t done well, and perhaps if they’re displaced, their successors will take the lesson. >>>> >>>> —CGE >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 13, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>> >>>>> "Greens dismiss "trickle-down economics," which Republicans use to justify the bill, as a scam designed to further enrich the wealthy and corporate sector at the expense of working people and those who really on essential human services. The bill was drafted with the help of more than 6,000 corporate lobbyists. >>>>> >>>>> The Green Party has said that the best way to alleviate the deficit and provide tax relief to middle- and low-income Americans is a drastic reduction in the bloated and wasteful military budget -- $598.5 billion in Fiscal Year 2015, which accounted for 54% of all federal discretionary spending. >>>>> >>>>> Both major parties are responsible for the size of the military budget, which is ten times larger than Russia's. In July, 60% of House Democrats voted for a nearly $700 billion defense budget that was far bigger than President Trump's proposal. On Tuesday, Dec. 12, Mr. Trump signed the bill authorizing the budget for that amount.” >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 14:58:35 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 08:58:35 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] What we're up against Message-ID: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 14 15:33:03 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 15:33:03 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_Time_is_Running_Out_=E2=80=94_Pl?= =?utf-8?q?ease_Join_Our_Conference_on_U=2ES=2E_Foreign_Military_Bases?= References: Message-ID: Subject: Time is Running Out — Please Join Our Conference on U.S. Foreign Military Bases Reply-To: No Bases List > LESS THAN A MONTH LEFT! PLEASE JOIN US [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/ccd625b69dbee766fcef0d707/images/134bb23c-8e0a-4bdc-9355-d038f70ccd28.jpg] Conference on U.S. Foreign Military Bases January 12 - 14, 2018, University of Baltimore Learning Commons Town Hall, Baltimore, Maryland Organized by: Coalition Against U.S. Foreign Military Bases Fourteen prominent peace, justice and environmental organizations in the United States are collectively organizing a 3-day national conference on U.S. Foreign Military Bases on January 12-14, 2018, at the University of Baltimore, Maryland: • Alliance for Global Justice • Black Alliance for Peace • CODEPINK • Global Network Against Weapons and Nuclear Power in Space • International Action Center • Liberty Tree Foundation • MLK Justice Coalition • Nuclear Age Peace Foundation • Popular Resistance • United National Antiwar Coalition • U.S. Peace Council • Veterans For Peace • Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom • World Beyond War. You can join and support this Conference by: 1. Registering and attending the Conference. 2. Having your organization endorse the Conference. 3. Placing an ad or a solidarity message from your group in the Conference Journal. Click Here for Conference Details, Registration and Endorsement [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/ccd625b69dbee766fcef0d707/_compresseds/2c648a7e-1ee3-4ec2-9495-bdf40b3baddb.jpg] Want to change how you receive these emails? You can update your preferences or unsubscribe from this list. This email was sent to karenaram at hotmail.com why did I get this? unsubscribe from this list update subscription preferences Gabbard Petition · P.O. Box 8693 · Haledon, Nj 07538 · USA [Email Marketing Powered by MailChimp] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 14 15:35:43 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 15:35:43 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] What we're up against In-Reply-To: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> Message-ID: In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=hGovUp0sOejyaVZtEvv4orYI4cK50iEzjBzM6x1CiH4%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 15:41:35 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 09:41:35 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> Message-ID: A good way to get a neolib and neocon Republican (running as a Democrat) elected to a Senate seat is to be sure his opponent is an outrageous troglodyte. It worked “in the case of Alabama." > On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. > >> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> >> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence >> >> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. >> >> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=hGovUp0sOejyaVZtEvv4orYI4cK50iEzjBzM6x1CiH4%3D&reserved=0 > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 17:15:35 2017 From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 11:15:35 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> Message-ID: <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> Karen I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. Deb Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: > > In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. > >> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence >> >> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. >> >> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=hGovUp0sOejyaVZtEvv4orYI4cK50iEzjBzM6x1CiH4%3D&reserved=0 > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Thu Dec 14 17:28:15 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 11:28:15 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Anti-tax rally up dated info. Message-ID: <012d01d37500$effb4cf0$cff1e6d0$@comcast.net> . Saturday weather forecast is 50 degrees and sunny. Please come out and show your opposition. David Johnson World Labor Hour radio -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 41305 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: Untitled attachment 00277.txt URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Thu Dec 14 17:36:04 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 11:36:04 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Anti-tax rally Saturday Dec. 16th 2PM Message-ID: <016d01d37502$05488720$0fd99560$@comcast.net> Saturday weather forecast is 50 degrees and sunny. Please come out and show your opposition. David Johnson World Labor Hour radio -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 41305 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: Untitled attachment 00277.txt URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 14 18:11:50 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 18:11:50 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote. On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn > wrote: Karen I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. Deb Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace > wrote: In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=hGovUp0sOejyaVZtEvv4orYI4cK50iEzjBzM6x1CiH4%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 14 18:39:32 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 18:39:32 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] US lawmakers voted against Net Neutrality Message-ID: Service providers can alter speed of websites, etc. among other things. From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 18:42:53 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 12:42:53 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2652C9F3-6348-4DAB-BE71-ADA9BCEE307E@gmail.com> Moore’s wretchedness resulted in the electorate's voting for the same pro-war/pro-Wall Street policies the Congress (including the Democrats) have followed for the last several administrations. On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. > > According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. > AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote. > > > On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn wrote: >> >> Karen >> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. >> Deb >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >> >>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. >>> >>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence >>>> >>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. >>>> >>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=hGovUp0sOejyaVZtEvv4orYI4cK50iEzjBzM6x1CiH4%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> _ From bjornsona at ameritech.net Thu Dec 14 19:00:00 2017 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 13:00:00 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] US lawmakers voted against Net Neutrality Message-ID: <6krvpfegr212aab4btr7u7gv.1513277875638@email.lge.com> I wonder if that is why my AT & T phone ran a software update this morning. Perhaps AT & T had a program ready to go...? Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Karen Aram via Peace-discuss Date: Thu, Dec 14, 2017 12:40 PMTo: peace-discuss;peace;Cc: Subject:[Peace-discuss] US lawmakers voted against Net Neutrality Service providers can alter speed of websites, etc. among other things. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 19:27:08 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 13:27:08 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: <2652C9F3-6348-4DAB-BE71-ADA9BCEE307E@gmail.com> References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <2652C9F3-6348-4DAB-BE71-ADA9BCEE307E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A6B34F0-9FEE-447B-AAAA-5693EC916382@gmail.com> There’s no mystery why an electorate opposed to expanding war and growing inequality elects another pro-war/pro-Wall St. Senator. Boss Tweed explained it 140 years ago. ("William M. Tweed [1823-78] was an American politician and political boss of Tammany Hall, a Democratic party political organization in New York City, associated especially in the late 1800s and early 1900s with corruption and abuse of power.") • "I don't care who does the electing, so long as I get to do the nominating.” The choice in Alabama was between a reprobate and a neolib/neocon place-holder. The election of the latter is not a victory for the American people - or the world. —CGE > On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:42 PM, C G Estabrook wrote: > > Moore’s wretchedness resulted in the electorate's voting for the same pro-war/pro-Wall Street policies the Congress (including the Democrats) have followed for the last several administrations. > > > On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. >> >> According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. >> AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote. >> >> >> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn wrote: >>> >>> Karen >>> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. >>> Deb >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >>> >>>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. >>>> >>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>> >>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence >>>>> >>>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. >>>>> >>>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=hGovUp0sOejyaVZtEvv4orYI4cK50iEzjBzM6x1CiH4%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>>> _ From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 23:58:28 2017 From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 17:58:28 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered support when it looked like he might win. As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be foolish not to take advantage of it. Deb Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram wrote: > > Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. > > According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. > AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote. > > > > > > >> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn wrote: >> >> Karen >> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. >> Deb >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >> >>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. >>> >>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence >>>> >>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. >>>> >>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=hGovUp0sOejyaVZtEvv4orYI4cK50iEzjBzM6x1CiH4%3D&reserved=0 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace mailing list >>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Dec 15 00:13:30 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 00:13:30 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: FCC votes to repeal net neutrality References: <1334824950.5252.1513277210146.JavaMail.nobody@prd-10-165-239-123.nodes.56m.dmtio.net> Message-ID: From: CNN Breaking News > Subject: FCC votes to repeal net neutrality The Republican-led Federal Communications Commission voted Thursday to approve a controversial plan to repeal Obama-era net neutrality protections. The repeal passed 3-2, along a party-line vote. The vote came amid mounting protests from the tech industry, consumer advocacy groups and even some Republican members of Congress who'd urged the FCC to delay or cancel the vote. In what may be a sign emotions running high on the issue, the net neutrality vote was briefly interrupted due to a security threat. FCC commissioners and the audience were forced to evacuate the room. Read more... ---------------------------------------------- Get complete coverage of breaking news on CNN TV, CNN.com and CNN Mobile. Watch CNN live or On Demand from your computer or mobile device using CNNgo. ---------------------------------------------- You have opted-in to receive this e-mail from CNN.com. To unsubscribe from Breaking News e-mail alerts, go to: http://cnn.com/EMAIL/breakingnews/unsubscribe.html?l=domestic-adh-bn One CNN Center Atlanta, GA 30303 (c) & (r) 2017 Cable News Network -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From divisek at yahoo.com Fri Dec 15 01:35:41 2017 From: divisek at yahoo.com (Dianna Visek) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 01:35:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] What Lives Matter? References: <401474655.3469641.1513301741403.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <401474655.3469641.1513301741403@mail.yahoo.com> This article presents a good way to reason with people who think our overseas anti-terrorist killings are justified. What Lives Matter? - The Advocates for Self-Government | | | | | | | | | | | What Lives Matter? - The Advocates for Self-Government During Thanksgiving dinner the NFL protests came into the conversation, unsurprisingly many around the table tho... | | | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Fri Dec 15 02:41:12 2017 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 20:41:12 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war) abroad, and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an apparatchik of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on their real needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration, under Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably quiescent suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and neocon policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those policies). Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the populist genie back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them. Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military policies of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity” with the rest of the world: >. All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats) has to offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: >. Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than that, but rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE > On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered support when it looked like he might win. > > As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be foolish not to take advantage of it. > > Deb > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: > >> Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. >> >> According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. >> AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn > wrote: >>> >>> Karen >>> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. >>> Deb >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace > wrote: >>> >>>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. >>>> >>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence >>>>> >>>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. >>>>> >>>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=hGovUp0sOejyaVZtEvv4orYI4cK50iEzjBzM6x1CiH4%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace mailing list >>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Dec 15 13:12:07 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 13:12:07 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The end of net neutrality Message-ID: The end of net neutrality and the fight to defend the free internet 15 December 2017 The US Federal Communication Commission (FCC) voted Thursday to overturn rules, known as net neutrality, that required internet service providers (ISPs) to treat all data on the internet the same and prohibited them from limiting or blocking users’ access to web sites and services. The ruling heralds a new age in internet communications, where giant internet and technology monopolies like AT&T, Verizon and Comcast regulate what information people have access to. Since the emergence of broadband internet, the Federal Communication Commission had de factooperated under net neutrality principles, including a 2005 declaration that “consumers are entitled to access the lawful Internet content of their choice” and that “consumers are entitled to run applications and services of their choice.” In 2015, the FCC formalized these rules, classifying broadband access as a “telecommunications service” and declaring that “A person engaged in the provision of broadband Internet access service…shall not block lawful content, applications, services, or non-harmful devices,” and that ISPs “shall not impair or degrade lawful Internet traffic on the basis of Internet content.” Thursday’s ruling eliminates these so-called “bright-line” rules against censorship and sends a clear message to internet service providers that they are free to “block” and “degrade” the distribution of internet content at will. It is difficult to overstate the momentous implications of the ruling. It allows a small cabal of home internet service providers and mobile data carriers to operate a blacklist of oppositional web sites and services, effectively blocking access to them for nearly all Americans. In Thursday’s hearing, FCC officials light-mindedly downplayed such a scenario, declaring that the laws of the free market would not allow egregious blacklisting, and that customers could simply switch services if ISPs engaged in censorship. Their specious and self-interested arguments ignored the fact that, for most Americans, internet service is not a free market, with 50 million having only one broadband provider to choose from, and most of the rest having only two. Just as ominously, the ending of net neutrality opens a new era of class discrimination. As the internet monopolies raise rates, they will introduce multiple tiers of service, with most users forced, through economic pressure, into service plans offering only highly restricted content. The free and open exchange of ideas, to the extent that it exists, will be the exclusive purview of the rich. The ending of net neutrality is of a piece with the entire policy of the Trump administration, which has moved to immensely strengthen the power of the corporate and financial oligarchy through deregulation, tax cuts and other right-wing measures. While some Democrats have postured as defenders of net neutrality, the Democratic Party has been at the forefront of the attack on freedom of expression on the internet. FCC chairman Ajit Pai, who is leading the offensive against net neutrality, was first appointed to the FCC board by President Obama. The NSA and CIA, with the support of both Democrats and Republicans, have worked with the giant ISPs to monitor the communications and internet activity of individuals all over the world. Moreover, the Democrats, together with the New York Times and Jeff Bezos’s Washington Post and the major broadcast TV networks, are spearheading a campaign against freedom of expression on the internet, under the pretense of fighting “fake news” and foreign “meddling.” Facebook, YouTube and Twitter hired tens of thousands of censors to ban and block “offensive” and “fake” content, while Google, the world’s largest search engine, initiated changes to its search algorithm to block left-wing web sites, principally the World Socialist Web Site, from appearing in tens of thousands of key search results. The Democrats’ nominal opposition to the moves to end net neutrality are in large part bound up with the interests of the giant internet companies like Google and Facebook, which are concerned they may have to pay ISPs for premium speeds. However, these companies have shown that they are perfectly willing to forge deals with the ISPs when it is in their interests. In 2010, Google worked with Verizon on a deal to privilege its own content (including from Google-owned YouTube), which it can now do with the abolition of net neutrality. Such an arrangement would feed on Google’s own efforts to censor the internet through the manipulation of its search results. In the new age of censorship, the economic interests of the major corporations and the political aims of social reaction increasingly become one and the same. The leading advocates of censorship have been the major newspapers and TV broadcasters, who have seen a massive decline in readers and viewers as users have sought alternatives to their banal state-sponsored propaganda. The media conglomerates see in internet censorship not only a means to claw back market share, but to regain control of the political narrative, which they have lost to internet publications. The ending of net neutrality has provoked widespread opposition among workers and young people. This opposition, driven by fears of what is to come, will solidify into social protest once the reality of censorship makes itself felt. In the struggles ahead, one thing must be made clear: Censorship is the inevitable outgrowth of the capitalist system, which sets as its goal not freedom, but domination. It is the corollary of unprecedented social inequality and the drive of the ruling class toward world war. The fight to defend the free and open internet is the fight to abolish the domination of the corporate and financial oligarchy over society and politics. The telecommunication monopolies, along with all the giant banks and corporations, must be turned into public utilities, run on the basis of social need, not private profit. Internet access is a basic social right, which must be freely available to all, without the interference of corporations or the state. The social force capable of defending a free internet is the working class. The basic aim of internet censorship is to prevent or suppress the emergence of working-class opposition to the policies of the oligarchy. Opposition to the imposition of corporate-state control must be connected to the fight against social inequality, poverty, unemployment and war. The World Socialist Web Site has been the first to ring the alarm at Google’s censorship of the internet. It will continue to be at the forefront of the fight for freedom of expression on the internet, which is inseparable from the struggle to end capitalism and replace it with socialism. Andre Damon WSWS.ORG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Dec 15 13:19:57 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 13:19:57 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Digital Dystopia Message-ID: * Contact Us * Jobs * Log In * Subscribe to our Newsletter HOT TOPICS ▶ Honduras Elections Target: Iran The Real Baltimore Reality Asserts Itself United Kingdom Digital Dystopia: FCC Ends Net Neutrality Ajit Pai's FCC voted Thursday to end net neutrality regulations despite fierce opposition [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/print1214fcc-240.jpg] By Baynard Woods The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) voted Thursday to overturn the so-called net neutrality rules that prevent internet service providers from favoring certain sites with higher speeds, while jamming up others. Net neutrality was the result of activist campaigns in 2015. Craig Aaron, president of the advocacy group Free Press, calls net neutrality the “First Amendment of the internet,” which ensure that “when you go online, you can go wherever you want; do whatever you want; download whatever you want; and it's not up to Comcast, Verizon or AT&T to decide which websites are going to work and which aren't.” Ajit Pai, a Trump appointee, made a mission of undoing the 2015 rules. “This decision was a mistake. For one thing, there was no problem to solve,” he said before the decisive vote Thursday. “The Internet wasn’t broken in 2015. We weren’t living in a digital dystopia. To the contrary, the Internet is perhaps the one thing in American society we can all agree has been a stunning success.” Pai went on to say that the net neutrality rules actually harmed consumers. “The main complaint consumers have about the Internet is not and has never been that their Internet service provider is blocking access to content. It’s that they don’t have access at all or enough competition,” he said. “There's a bit of trickery going on when the opponents of net neutrality say that this is going back to the way it was before,” Kit Walsh, staff attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, told the Real News last month. “That's just not true. In the very early days of the internet, when you got your internet access over phone lines, those phone lines were subject to non-discrimination rules under the same legal framework that is implicated in the 2015 Open Internet order. And so, that was why you were able to use your phone to call up a dial-up ISP.” The fight for net neutrality began with broadband. “This is within the FCC's discretion. They can say we're going to treat broadband just like any other telecommunications service, but what they chose to do instead is to treat it like what's called an information service, which it's really not,” Walsh said. The dangers, she says, could be immediate and wide-ranging. “So, for instance, Comcast owns a share in Universal Media Company. AT&T has its own streaming media platform. Verizon briefly had a news platform where they said that people were not to discuss net neutrality or mass surveillance, because that was contrary to their corporate interests,” she said. “So, what companies can do if this proposed order goes through is they'll be able to threaten to block access to your website.” Mignon Clyburn dissented in a scathing statement. “I dissent from this fiercely-spun, legally-lightweight, consumer-harming, corporate-enabling Destroying Internet Freedom Order,” she said. “I dissent, because I am among the millions who is outraged. Outraged, because the FCC pulls its own teeth, abdicating responsibility to protect the nation’s broadband consumers.” Clyburn says that without the protections we will have a “Cheshire cat version of net neutrality” where “all that is left is a broadband provider’s toothy grin and those oh so comforting words: we have every incentive to do the right thing.” Clyburn says marginalized communities will be harmed the most. “Particularly damning is what today’s repeal will mean for marginalized groups, like communities of color, that rely on platforms like the internet to communicate, because traditional outlets do not consider their issues or concerns, worthy of any coverage,” she said. “It was through social media that the world first heard about Ferguson, Missouri, because legacy news outlets did not consider it important until the hashtag started trending. It has been through online video services, that targeted entertainment has thrived, where stories are finally being told because those same programming were repeatedly rejected by mainstream distribution and media outlets. And it has been through secure messaging platforms, where activists have communicated and organized for justice without gatekeepers with differing opinions blocking them.” Clyburn promised to work with Twitter to host a town-hall meeting at 2:00 p.m. on Tuesday. Pai has shown himself as a champion of corporate interests since taking office earlier this year. He recently rolled back regulations against monopolies and cleared the way for the right-wing media outlet Sinclair to purchase Tribune Media, a move that would place it in up to 70% of American homes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moboct1 at aim.com Fri Dec 15 14:06:17 2017 From: moboct1 at aim.com (Mildred O'brien) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 09:06:17 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] What Lives Matter? In-Reply-To: <401474655.3469641.1513301741403@mail.yahoo.com> References: <401474655.3469641.1513301741403.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <401474655.3469641.1513301741403@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1605a7f4068-170f-cf9@webjas-vac160.srv.aolmail.net> Using the analogy Mr. Martin puts forward below about Mexican drug dealers, Mexico might have more grounds for terrorism against U.S. illicit drug consumers, as they are the ones driving the market.   No consumers, no market (the capitalists tell us) unless the advert 'bidness' could create one with potential users who exercise poor judgment. MO'B -----Original Message----- From: Dianna Visek via Peace-discuss To: Peace-discuss List Sent: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 19:36 Subject: [Peace-discuss] What Lives Matter? This article presents a good way to reason with people who think our overseas anti-terrorist killings are justified. What Lives Matter? - The Advocates for Self-Government What Lives Matter? - The Advocates for Self-Government During Thanksgiving dinner the NFL protests came into the conversation, unsurprisingly many around the table tho... _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Dec 15 14:23:34 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 08:23:34 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Call to action Message-ID: <6E51D5F2-3B1E-4394-879B-A57D464536F9@gmail.com> https://www.commondreams.org/views/2017/12/15/we-can-get-fccs-decision-kill-net-neutrality-overturned-heres-how Write our representatives in Congress and demand their commitment to this. Here are their email addresses: Representative Rodney Davis: Senator Tammy Duckworth: Senator Dick Durbin: ### -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Dec 15 15:54:27 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 15:54:27 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] What Lives Matter? In-Reply-To: <1605a7f4068-170f-cf9@webjas-vac160.srv.aolmail.net> References: <401474655.3469641.1513301741403.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <401474655.3469641.1513301741403@mail.yahoo.com> <1605a7f4068-170f-cf9@webjas-vac160.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Though Midge is correct in respect to “Mexican drug lords,” this article is good. As it provides an argument against war, based upon perspective, which Americans supporting US wars of aggression overseas need to develop. Unfortunately, making these connections is not easy, when we have mainstream media, Hollywood and even academia, to compete with. On Dec 15, 2017, at 06:06, Mildred O'brien via Peace-discuss > wrote: Using the analogy Mr. Martin puts forward below about Mexican drug dealers, Mexico might have more grounds for terrorism against U.S. illicit drug consumers, as they are the ones driving the market. No consumers, no market (the capitalists tell us) unless the advert 'bidness' could create one with potential users who exercise poor judgment. MO'B -----Original Message----- From: Dianna Visek via Peace-discuss > To: Peace-discuss List > Sent: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 19:36 Subject: [Peace-discuss] What Lives Matter? This article presents a good way to reason with people who think our overseas anti-terrorist killings are justified. What Lives Matter? - The Advocates for Self-Government What Lives Matter? - The Advocates for Self-Government During Thanksgiving dinner the NFL protests came into the conversation, unsurprisingly many around the table tho... _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C723fa2fd8d124a3c22e008d543c5151e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636489436097916113&sdata=UNx1GO3qQVwr4LhNjCQoQW43ZmV2THXMhXmFAyNMKUg%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 09:41:57 2017 From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 03:41:57 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> Message-ID: Did it ever occur to you that Trump might have been LYING when he criticized "neolib and neocon policies" in order to stoke voter anger and gain votes, just like he lied about draining the swamp, respecting women, not hurting Medicare and Social Security, providing "terrific" health care for everyone, and too many other subjects to mention? Deb Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 14, 2017, at 8:41 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" wrote: > > The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war) abroad, and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an apparatchik of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on their real needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration, under Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably quiescent suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and neocon policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those policies). Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the populist genie back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them. > > Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military policies of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity” with the rest of the world: . > > All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats) has to offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: . > > Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than that, but rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE > > >> On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered support when it looked like he might win. >> >> As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be foolish not to take advantage of it. >> >> Deb >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>> >>> Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. >>> >>> According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. >>> AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn wrote: >>>> >>>> Karen >>>> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. >>>> Deb >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >>>> >>>>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence >>>>>> >>>>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. >>>>>> >>>>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>>> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=hGovUp0sOejyaVZtEvv4orYI4cK50iEzjBzM6x1CiH4%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Peace mailing list >>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Sat Dec 16 09:59:45 2017 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 03:59:45 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <95BB20D0-FD15-4D02-8C28-7E409A63A90E@illinois.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbw292002 at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 10:17:11 2017 From: jbw292002 at gmail.com (John W.) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 04:17:11 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace < peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: Did it ever occur to you that Trump might have been LYING when he > criticized "neolib and neocon policies" in order to stoke voter anger and > gain votes, just like he lied about draining the swamp, respecting women, > not hurting Medicare and Social Security, providing "terrific" health care > for everyone, and too many other subjects to mention? > > Deb > > Sent from my iPhone > Even the term "lying" seems too rational or calculated or sophisticated, somehow, to describe tRump. You can't THEORIZE about tRump in anything like the normal way. I would simply say that tRump is so far gone that his words bear absolutely no relation to his actions or intentions, which are impulsive and childish and motivated solely by insecurity and narcissism, certainly not by any coherent ideology. His words are never to be believed or trusted, to a far greater degree even than the average politician. They are simply to be ignored, and his actions observed and noted as the actions of a madman. He's a dangerous child with the nuclear codes. John Wason > On Dec 14, 2017, at 8:41 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" > wrote: > > The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war) abroad, > and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an apparatchik > of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on their real > needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration, under > Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably quiescent > suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and neocon > policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those policies). > Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the populist genie > back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them. > > Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military policies > of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity” with the > rest of the world: inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a- > recipe-for-divergence>. > > All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats) has to > offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: caityjohnstone/anti-trumpism-is-anti-progressivism-in- > disguise-9e688e6152e9>. > > Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than that, but > rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE > > > On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public > service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent > (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed > him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who > first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered > support when it looked like he might win. > > As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and > screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of > setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be > foolish not to take advantage of it. > > Deb > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram wrote: > > Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but > given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record > of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, > Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that > state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have > said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the > crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to > walk free. > > According to *JUAN GONZÁLEZ:* Doug Jones’ victory marks *the first time > in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama.* > Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones > against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, > sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. > *AMY GOODMAN:* Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with > African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for > defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted > for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for > Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. > A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being > accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when > they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone > Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary > during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have > won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black > women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies > and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that > effort,” unquote. > > > > > > > On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn > wrote: > > > Karen > I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat > who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who > totally disrespects the rule of law. > Deb > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace < > peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme > poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations > in sub saharan African villages. > > On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/ > inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a- > recipe-for-divergence > > > It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. > > "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly > limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate > within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident > views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, > while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced > by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo% > 2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f% > 7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata= > hGovUp0sOejyaVZtEvv4orYI4cK50iEzjBzM6x1CiH4%3D&reserved=0 > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Sat Dec 16 10:48:59 2017 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 04:48:59 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> Message-ID: Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise – Caitlin Johnstone The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of. When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”. The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore. This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn. Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work. As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now. There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force. You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead. _______ > On Dec 16, 2017, at 4:17 AM, John W. wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace wrote: > > Did it ever occur to you that Trump might have been LYING when he criticized "neolib and neocon policies" in order to stoke voter anger and gain votes, just like he lied about draining the swamp, respecting women, not hurting Medicare and Social Security, providing "terrific" health care for everyone, and too many other subjects to mention? > > Deb > > Sent from my iPhone > > Even the term "lying" seems too rational or calculated or sophisticated, somehow, to describe tRump. You can't THEORIZE about tRump in anything like the normal way. I would simply say that tRump is so far gone that his words bear absolutely no relation to his actions or intentions, which are impulsive and childish and motivated solely by insecurity and narcissism, certainly not by any coherent ideology. His words are never to be believed or trusted, to a far greater degree even than the average politician. They are simply to be ignored, and his actions observed and noted as the actions of a madman. He's a dangerous child with the nuclear codes. > > John Wason > > > > > On Dec 14, 2017, at 8:41 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" wrote: > >> The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war) abroad, and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an apparatchik of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on their real needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration, under Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably quiescent suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and neocon policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those policies). Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the populist genie back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them. >> >> Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military policies of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity” with the rest of the world: . >> >> All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats) has to offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: . >> >> Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than that, but rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE >> >> >>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered support when it looked like he might win. >>> >>> As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be foolish not to take advantage of it. >>> >>> Deb >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>> >>>> Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. >>>> >>>> According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. >>>> AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Karen >>>>> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. >>>>> Deb >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 16 13:30:00 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 13:30:00 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> Message-ID: If we only focus on foreign policy, which continues with each administration whether Democrat or Republican, our one Party system owned by the corporations, it’s merely a matter of “strategy,” The Pentagon was displeased with Obama’s pivot to Asia, because they aren’t ready for war with China, they prefer staying in the middle east, and the ramping up of war with nations on the African continent (across the sahel). Obama did a fine job, providing the resources with Africom spread across the continent during his reign. Of course the American people took no notice, because colonizing and killing Africans whether here or there, is something the West has been doing for centuries with impunity. So the battles taking place between our institutions currently within the Beltway are simply a matter of “strategy,” that of, which nation do we destroy next, one can only stretch ones resources so far. Yes, did I mention Iran? Iran is now in the crosshairs, along with Russia, war with China can wait. There is no candidate, no one residing within either of the one Party system of Democrats or Republicans who cares for peace, our Congressional leaders are owned by the corporations and if one rebels against the system he/she is likely penalized or gerrymandered out in some manner or another. There are many things and people that need to be ignored, those squabbling over the elections for one. If all we do is argue amongst ourselves, and take no action against that which threatens to destroy humanity then we deserve what we get. Trump said a lot of things during the campaign, as do most candidates, anything to get elected, what matters now, is what his Administration is “doing.” Not what he says. He is no “peace” candidate, never was. Wanting peace with Russia is about the money to be made doing business with Russia. Trump bombed Syria, and his provocations for war with North Korea, otherwise China, provocations for war with Iran, the moving of the US Embassy to Jerusalem, and his support for intervention in Libya as far back as 2011 are proof. In the meantime, the elites/billionaires under the Trump Administration are having a field day, further impoverishing the American people, with the tax increase, anti-net neutrality, etc.,etc. Yes, the Obama Administration paved the way, but now it’s in our face, now it’s no longer hidden with excuses and obfuscation of events. Are we going to do nothing? Or are we going to take action, take to the streets, make our voices heard which is the only tried and true method of producing any change or progress. Today 2:00 Champaign County Courthouse on Main and Vine stand up against the tax increase against the working class. By the way, even if you aren’t working, even if you are a professional with various degrees, unless you’re a billionaire, you are “working class.” > On Dec 16, 2017, at 02:48, Carl G. Estabrook wrote: > > Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise – Caitlin Johnstone > > The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of. > > When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”. > > The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore. > > This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn. > > Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work. > > As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now. > > There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force. > > You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead. > > _______ > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 4:17 AM, John W. wrote: >> >> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace wrote: >> >> Did it ever occur to you that Trump might have been LYING when he criticized "neolib and neocon policies" in order to stoke voter anger and gain votes, just like he lied about draining the swamp, respecting women, not hurting Medicare and Social Security, providing "terrific" health care for everyone, and too many other subjects to mention? >> >> Deb >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> Even the term "lying" seems too rational or calculated or sophisticated, somehow, to describe tRump. You can't THEORIZE about tRump in anything like the normal way. I would simply say that tRump is so far gone that his words bear absolutely no relation to his actions or intentions, which are impulsive and childish and motivated solely by insecurity and narcissism, certainly not by any coherent ideology. His words are never to be believed or trusted, to a far greater degree even than the average politician. They are simply to be ignored, and his actions observed and noted as the actions of a madman. He's a dangerous child with the nuclear codes. >> >> John Wason >> >> >> >> >> On Dec 14, 2017, at 8:41 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" wrote: >> >>> The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war) abroad, and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an apparatchik of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on their real needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration, under Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably quiescent suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and neocon policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those policies). Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the populist genie back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them. >>> >>> Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military policies of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity” with the rest of the world: . >>> >>> All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats) has to offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: . >>> >>> Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than that, but rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered support when it looked like he might win. >>>> >>>> As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be foolish not to take advantage of it. >>>> >>>> Deb >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>> >>>>> Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. >>>>> >>>>> According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. >>>>> AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Karen >>>>>> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. >>>>>> Deb >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Finequality%2F2017%2Fdec%2F14%2Finequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1e6fa1ce5d6942af0f8208d54472cbb5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490182183861995&sdata=AKazhqT%2BQRqrAWIT6YM3ZXi5xU5TLP7PuLuMya9zmh8%3D&reserved=0 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>>> From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 15:43:37 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 09:43:37 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Censorship on the internet Message-ID: <4073125F-180B-41A5-A7F2-C65CA8B50DD5@gmail.com> The announcement, which seems to have largely flown under the radar of both the media and Twitter’s user base, came as part of a November update to Twitter’s safety policies, when the site added a crucial clause to its terms of service: "You also may not affiliate with organizations that — whether by their own statements or activity both on and off the platform — use or promote violence against civilians to further their causes. We will begin enforcing this rule around affiliation with such organizations on December 18, 2017." Given that US drone assassinations alone, as practiced in this administration and the last one ("The Most Extreme Terrorist Campaign of Modern Times"), are estimated to have killed 5,000 people (it's a secret program, so the USG doesn't release casualty figures) - most of them civilians - it would seem that anyone who "affiliates" with the US government (which rather clearly "uses or promotes violence against civilians to further its causes") will be banned from using Twitter. Recall that the censorship madness of the American 1950s was practiced by 'good citizens'. The equivocal George Orwell had to write in the preface to his 1945 novel "Animal Farm" (an attack on the Soviet Union), "If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." The preface was suppressed and is still not printed in most editions, online or hardcopy. Where will it end? (Why, we might have good people suppressing posts to AWARE's email lists!) —CGE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Dec 16 16:08:34 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 16:08:34 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: Daesh Possession of Anti-Tank Missile Exposes CIA Plan to Arm Jihadists - Sputnik International Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 10:05 AM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: Daesh Possession of Anti-Tank Missile Exposes CIA Plan to Arm Jihadists - Sputnik International https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201712161060048524-daesh-anti-tank-missile-cia/ The acquisition of an anti-tank weapon by Daesh exposes the fact the CIA knowingly took great risks to arm extremists in a desperate bid to oust Syrian President Bashar Assad, analysts told Sputnik. WASHINGTON (Sputnik) - An anti-tank guided weapon made in Europe and sold to the United States, ended up in the hands of Daesh in Iraq within just two months, the Conflict Armament Research (CAR) group said in a newly-published report. CIA DELIBERATE PROGRAM The anti-tank missiles in question were apparently purchased under a secret program run by the Central Intelligence Agency and allegedly destined for Syrian opposition groups, according to BuzzFeed, although skepticism abounds on the nature of their ties to Daesh. "The United States, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the Gulf sheikdoms and Turkey have been illegally arming, equipping, supplying, financing and supporting all the terrorist jihadi groups in Syria including the Islamic State (Daesh) from the very get-go for the purpose of overthrowing the Assad government," University of Illinois Professor of International Law Francis Boyle told Sputnik on Friday. The National Cathedral is seen after green paint was discovered in two chapels inside the Cathedral in Washington on Monday, July 29, 2013. (c) AP Photo/ Jacquelyn Martin Daesh Targets Washington's National Cathedral in Violent New Image These reports confirmed the consistent and deliberate policies of the US government in fanning the flames of the Syrian civil war that raged for six years and cost more than 600,000 lives, Boyle said. However, the US policy of building up Daesh and other jihadists groups to topple the legitimate Syrian government had been thwarted by the support Russia and Iran had provided to Damascus, Boyle pointed out. "They [US policymakers] would have accomplished this objective if not for the military intervention by Russia and then Iran at the request of the Syrian government pursuant to the right of collective self-defense recognized by United Nations Charter article 51," he said. US President Donald Trump prepares to speak to the press before he meets with his cabinet in the Cabinet Room at the White House in Washington, DC, on March 13, 2017, as Defense Secretary James Mattis looks on (c) AFP 2017/ NICHOLAS KAMM War Correspondent: Armies of Iraq, Syria Deserve Credit for Daesh Defeat, Not US Claiming the threat of Daesh as its justification, the United States had established thousands of its own troops within the territory of Syria in contravention of international law and against the clear will of the official government in Damascus, Boyle noted. Boyle warned that Washington intended to maintain its illegal military presence in Syria indefinitely and planned to use its bases there as a springboard to attack Iran. DEMOCRATIC FACADE Retired US Army Colonel and military tactician Douglas Macgregor told Sputnik that the weapons sent to allegedly strengthen democratic forces in Syria had flowed to the extreme Islamist groups instead. "Yes. These weapons went to the alleged "Sunni Arab Rebels" fighting for a democratic Syria. In reality, they and their cohorts were Islamists in coalition with al-Nusrah [Nusrah Front] and al-Qaeda affiliated groups," Macgreor said. Earlier this year, President Donald Trump ended an enormous program of pro supporting and providing weapons to those groups, recognizing that they advanced Islamist goals, not secular democratic ones, Macgregor observed. "This is why President Trump halted the arms flow to them," he said. Macgregor commanded in the Battle of 73 Easting, a decisive tank fight during the 1991 Gulf War. From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Dec 16 16:08:34 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 16:08:34 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: Daesh Possession of Anti-Tank Missile Exposes CIA Plan to Arm Jihadists - Sputnik International Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 10:05 AM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: Daesh Possession of Anti-Tank Missile Exposes CIA Plan to Arm Jihadists - Sputnik International https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201712161060048524-daesh-anti-tank-missile-cia/ The acquisition of an anti-tank weapon by Daesh exposes the fact the CIA knowingly took great risks to arm extremists in a desperate bid to oust Syrian President Bashar Assad, analysts told Sputnik. WASHINGTON (Sputnik) - An anti-tank guided weapon made in Europe and sold to the United States, ended up in the hands of Daesh in Iraq within just two months, the Conflict Armament Research (CAR) group said in a newly-published report. CIA DELIBERATE PROGRAM The anti-tank missiles in question were apparently purchased under a secret program run by the Central Intelligence Agency and allegedly destined for Syrian opposition groups, according to BuzzFeed, although skepticism abounds on the nature of their ties to Daesh. "The United States, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the Gulf sheikdoms and Turkey have been illegally arming, equipping, supplying, financing and supporting all the terrorist jihadi groups in Syria including the Islamic State (Daesh) from the very get-go for the purpose of overthrowing the Assad government," University of Illinois Professor of International Law Francis Boyle told Sputnik on Friday. The National Cathedral is seen after green paint was discovered in two chapels inside the Cathedral in Washington on Monday, July 29, 2013. (c) AP Photo/ Jacquelyn Martin Daesh Targets Washington's National Cathedral in Violent New Image These reports confirmed the consistent and deliberate policies of the US government in fanning the flames of the Syrian civil war that raged for six years and cost more than 600,000 lives, Boyle said. However, the US policy of building up Daesh and other jihadists groups to topple the legitimate Syrian government had been thwarted by the support Russia and Iran had provided to Damascus, Boyle pointed out. "They [US policymakers] would have accomplished this objective if not for the military intervention by Russia and then Iran at the request of the Syrian government pursuant to the right of collective self-defense recognized by United Nations Charter article 51," he said. US President Donald Trump prepares to speak to the press before he meets with his cabinet in the Cabinet Room at the White House in Washington, DC, on March 13, 2017, as Defense Secretary James Mattis looks on (c) AFP 2017/ NICHOLAS KAMM War Correspondent: Armies of Iraq, Syria Deserve Credit for Daesh Defeat, Not US Claiming the threat of Daesh as its justification, the United States had established thousands of its own troops within the territory of Syria in contravention of international law and against the clear will of the official government in Damascus, Boyle noted. Boyle warned that Washington intended to maintain its illegal military presence in Syria indefinitely and planned to use its bases there as a springboard to attack Iran. DEMOCRATIC FACADE Retired US Army Colonel and military tactician Douglas Macgregor told Sputnik that the weapons sent to allegedly strengthen democratic forces in Syria had flowed to the extreme Islamist groups instead. "Yes. These weapons went to the alleged "Sunni Arab Rebels" fighting for a democratic Syria. In reality, they and their cohorts were Islamists in coalition with al-Nusrah [Nusrah Front] and al-Qaeda affiliated groups," Macgreor said. Earlier this year, President Donald Trump ended an enormous program of pro supporting and providing weapons to those groups, recognizing that they advanced Islamist goals, not secular democratic ones, Macgregor observed. "This is why President Trump halted the arms flow to them," he said. Macgregor commanded in the Battle of 73 Easting, a decisive tank fight during the 1991 Gulf War. From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 16 16:18:13 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 16:18:13 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: Daesh Possession of Anti-Tank Missile Exposes CIA Plan to Arm Jihadists - Sputnik International References: Message-ID: > > Subject: Daesh Possession of Anti-Tank Missile Exposes CIA Plan to Arm Jihadists - Sputnik International > > https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsputniknews.com%2Fanalysis%2F201712161060048524-daesh-anti-tank-missile-cia%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C44327a8b10f54c9ef5f308d5449f5109%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490373401112723&sdata=g2IHbEtpn8iPqwpDLwzJpFufhJkTOLdJWOQOyPWM7kU%3D&reserved=0 > > The acquisition of an anti-tank weapon by Daesh exposes the fact the CIA knowingly took great risks to arm extremists in a desperate bid to oust Syrian President Bashar Assad, analysts told Sputnik. > > > WASHINGTON (Sputnik) - An anti-tank guided weapon made in Europe and sold to the United States, ended up in the hands of Daesh in Iraq within just two months, the Conflict Armament Research (CAR) group said in a newly-published report. > > CIA DELIBERATE PROGRAM > > The anti-tank missiles in question were apparently purchased under a secret program run by the Central Intelligence Agency and allegedly destined for Syrian opposition groups, according to BuzzFeed, although skepticism abounds on the nature of their ties to Daesh. > > "The United States, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the Gulf sheikdoms and Turkey have been illegally arming, equipping, supplying, financing and supporting all the terrorist jihadi groups in Syria including the Islamic State (Daesh) from the very get-go for the purpose of overthrowing the Assad government," University of Illinois Professor of International Law Francis Boyle told Sputnik on Friday. > > > > The National Cathedral is seen after green paint was discovered in two chapels inside the Cathedral in Washington on Monday, July 29, 2013. > (c) AP Photo/ Jacquelyn Martin > > Daesh Targets Washington's National Cathedral in Violent New Image These reports confirmed the consistent and deliberate policies of the US government in fanning the flames of the Syrian civil war that raged for six years and cost more than 600,000 lives, Boyle said. > > However, the US policy of building up Daesh and other jihadists groups to topple the legitimate Syrian government had been thwarted by the support Russia and Iran had provided to Damascus, Boyle pointed out. > > "They [US policymakers] would have accomplished this objective if not for the military intervention by Russia and then Iran at the request of the Syrian government pursuant to the right of collective self-defense recognized by United Nations Charter article 51," he said. > > > > US President Donald Trump prepares to speak to the press before he meets with his cabinet in the Cabinet Room at the White House in Washington, DC, on March 13, 2017, as Defense Secretary James Mattis looks on (c) AFP 2017/ NICHOLAS KAMM > > War Correspondent: Armies of Iraq, Syria Deserve Credit for Daesh Defeat, Not US Claiming the threat of Daesh as its justification, the United States had established thousands of its own troops within the territory of Syria in contravention of international law and against the clear will of the official government in Damascus, Boyle noted. > > Boyle warned that Washington intended to maintain its illegal military presence in Syria indefinitely and planned to use its bases there as a springboard to attack Iran. > > DEMOCRATIC FACADE > > Retired US Army Colonel and military tactician Douglas Macgregor told Sputnik that the weapons sent to allegedly strengthen democratic forces in Syria had flowed to the extreme Islamist groups instead. > > "Yes. These weapons went to the alleged "Sunni Arab Rebels" fighting for a democratic Syria. In reality, they and their cohorts were Islamists in coalition with al-Nusrah [Nusrah Front] and al-Qaeda affiliated groups," Macgreor said. > > Earlier this year, President Donald Trump ended an enormous program of pro supporting and providing weapons to those groups, recognizing that they advanced Islamist goals, not secular democratic ones, Macgregor observed. > > "This is why President Trump halted the arms flow to them," he said. > > Macgregor commanded in the Battle of 73 Easting, a decisive tank fight during the 1991 Gulf War. > > From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 16 16:48:45 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 16:48:45 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Chris Hedges, brilliant as always, on "Fascism in the Age of Trump" Message-ID: https://youtu.be/i5X3NRD00FY From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 16:54:11 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 10:54:11 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Chris Hedges, brilliant as always, on "Fascism in the Age of Trump" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Give me a transcript (or at least a summary), dammit. I don’t have time to listen to someone talk on television. > On Dec 16, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > https://youtu.be/i5X3NRD00FY > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From brussel at illinois.edu Sat Dec 16 17:27:03 2017 From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 17:27:03 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu> I agree with your characterization of Trump, fully. He is incoherent, inept, and ignorant, even to those who have interviewed him with the intent of showing him to be less so. That anyone would put faith, or hope, in whatever he says is e extremely foolish. A very dangerous dilemma for the nation, and the world. Thanks. mkb On Dec 16, 2017, at 4:17 AM, John W. via Peace > wrote: On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace > wrote: Did it ever occur to you that Trump might have been LYING when he criticized "neolib and neocon policies" in order to stoke voter anger and gain votes, just like he lied about draining the swamp, respecting women, not hurting Medicare and Social Security, providing "terrific" health care for everyone, and too many other subjects to mention? Deb Sent from my iPhone Even the term "lying" seems too rational or calculated or sophisticated, somehow, to describe tRump. You can't THEORIZE about tRump in anything like the normal way. I would simply say that tRump is so far gone that his words bear absolutely no relation to his actions or intentions, which are impulsive and childish and motivated solely by insecurity and narcissism, certainly not by any coherent ideology. His words are never to be believed or trusted, to a far greater degree even than the average politician. They are simply to be ignored, and his actions observed and noted as the actions of a madman. He's a dangerous child with the nuclear codes. John Wason On Dec 14, 2017, at 8:41 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" > wrote: The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war) abroad, and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an apparatchik of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on their real needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration, under Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably quiescent suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and neocon policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those policies). Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the populist genie back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them. Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military policies of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity” with the rest of the world: . All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats) has to offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: . Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than that, but rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss > wrote: Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered support when it looked like he might win. As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be foolish not to take advantage of it. Deb Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote. On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn > wrote: Karen I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. Deb Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace > wrote: In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=hGovUp0sOejyaVZtEvv4orYI4cK50iEzjBzM6x1CiH4%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 17:38:44 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 11:38:44 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu> References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of. When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”. The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore. This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn. Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work. As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now. There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force. You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead. --– Caitlin Johnstone > On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace wrote: > > I agree with your characterization of Trump, fully. He is incoherent, inept, and ignorant, even to those who have interviewed him with the intent of showing him to be less so. That anyone would put faith, or hope, in whatever he says is e extremely foolish. A very dangerous dilemma for the nation, and the world. > Thanks. mkb > > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 4:17 AM, John W. via Peace wrote: >> >> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace wrote: >> >> Did it ever occur to you that Trump might have been LYING when he criticized "neolib and neocon policies" in order to stoke voter anger and gain votes, just like he lied about draining the swamp, respecting women, not hurting Medicare and Social Security, providing "terrific" health care for everyone, and too many other subjects to mention? >> >> Deb >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> Even the term "lying" seems too rational or calculated or sophisticated, somehow, to describe tRump. You can't THEORIZE about tRump in anything like the normal way. I would simply say that tRump is so far gone that his words bear absolutely no relation to his actions or intentions, which are impulsive and childish and motivated solely by insecurity and narcissism, certainly not by any coherent ideology. His words are never to be believed or trusted, to a far greater degree even than the average politician. They are simply to be ignored, and his actions observed and noted as the actions of a madman. He's a dangerous child with the nuclear codes. >> >> John Wason >> >> >> On Dec 14, 2017, at 8:41 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" wrote: >> >>> The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war) abroad, and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an apparatchik of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on their real needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration, under Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably quiescent suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and neocon policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those policies). Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the populist genie back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them. >>> >>> Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military policies of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity” with the rest of the world: . >>> >>> All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats) has to offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: . >>> >>> Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than that, but rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered support when it looked like he might win. >>>> >>>> As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be foolish not to take advantage of it. >>>> >>>> Deb >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>> >>>>> Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. >>>>> >>>>> According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. >>>>> AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Karen >>>>>> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. >>>>>> Deb >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 16 18:12:13 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 18:12:13 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Chris Hedges, brilliant as always, on "Fascism in the Age of Trump" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry Carl, It’s not television, it’s U Tube, and there is no transcript. It’s not brief either. As to a summary, I would never presume to summarize Chris Hedges, anymore than I would presume to summarize Chomsky. > On Dec 16, 2017, at 08:54, C G Estabrook wrote: > > Give me a transcript (or at least a summary), dammit. > > I don’t have time to listen to someone talk on television. > > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2Fi5X3NRD00FY&data=02%7C01%7C%7C04780bd593a34ddd07b508d544a5a68f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490400606150599&sdata=QD31u5JMwzC1O883AcXa2mSWehMcQQfOB%2BRK628v%2FXM%3D&reserved=0 >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C04780bd593a34ddd07b508d544a5a68f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490400606150599&sdata=UhMEEw7tOeYKnOqCoZmXetdcRsCBGFA4Ke%2BJQdZ1PR4%3D&reserved=0 > From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 18:17:23 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 12:17:23 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Chris Hedges, brilliant as always, on "Fascism in the Age of Trump" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Isn’t that what we should be doing, on (UP)TV and in demonstrations, for a yet-unknowing world? As Chesterton said, if a thing’s worth doing, it’s worth doing badly. > On Dec 16, 2017, at 12:12 PM, Karen Aram wrote: > > Sorry Carl, It’s not television, it’s U Tube, and there is no transcript. It’s not brief either. As to a summary, I would never presume to summarize Chris Hedges, anymore than I would presume to summarize Chomsky. > > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 08:54, C G Estabrook wrote: >> >> Give me a transcript (or at least a summary), dammit. >> >> I don’t have time to listen to someone talk on television. >> >> >>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2Fi5X3NRD00FY&data=02%7C01%7C%7C04780bd593a34ddd07b508d544a5a68f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490400606150599&sdata=QD31u5JMwzC1O883AcXa2mSWehMcQQfOB%2BRK628v%2FXM%3D&reserved=0 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C04780bd593a34ddd07b508d544a5a68f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490400606150599&sdata=UhMEEw7tOeYKnOqCoZmXetdcRsCBGFA4Ke%2BJQdZ1PR4%3D&reserved=0 >> > From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 16 18:20:09 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 18:20:09 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com> References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu> <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com> Message-ID: Carl, support for Trump, who is not the problem, yes, he is dangerous, but he is not the problem, he is a symptom. Trump represents the corporate elites and they are on a rampage, only resistance to the issues and policy’s and corporate capitalism will bring progress. Not the Democrats, they’re owned by Wall Street, and any assumption that Bernie as a supporter of the Democrat is going to bring change is a mistake as well. Once the polar ice caps are gone, it will take thousands of years to bring them back, if ever. We have no time, no time at all. Sorry I don’t have time to read Caitlyn’s article, because action is what we need, and we do have a rally today to which some of us will attend. Arm chair warriors are dangerous distractions, if they aren’t enlightening. > On Dec 16, 2017, at 09:38, C G Estabrook wrote: > > Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise > > The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of. > > When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”. > > The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore. > > This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn. > > Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work. > > As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now. > > There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force. > > You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead. > > --– Caitlin Johnstone > > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace wrote: >> >> I agree with your characterization of Trump, fully. He is incoherent, inept, and ignorant, even to those who have interviewed him with the intent of showing him to be less so. That anyone would put faith, or hope, in whatever he says is e extremely foolish. A very dangerous dilemma for the nation, and the world. >> Thanks. mkb >> >> >>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 4:17 AM, John W. via Peace wrote: >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace wrote: >>> >>> Did it ever occur to you that Trump might have been LYING when he criticized "neolib and neocon policies" in order to stoke voter anger and gain votes, just like he lied about draining the swamp, respecting women, not hurting Medicare and Social Security, providing "terrific" health care for everyone, and too many other subjects to mention? >>> >>> Deb >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> Even the term "lying" seems too rational or calculated or sophisticated, somehow, to describe tRump. You can't THEORIZE about tRump in anything like the normal way. I would simply say that tRump is so far gone that his words bear absolutely no relation to his actions or intentions, which are impulsive and childish and motivated solely by insecurity and narcissism, certainly not by any coherent ideology. His words are never to be believed or trusted, to a far greater degree even than the average politician. They are simply to be ignored, and his actions observed and noted as the actions of a madman. He's a dangerous child with the nuclear codes. >>> >>> John Wason >>> >>> >>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 8:41 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" wrote: >>> >>>> The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war) abroad, and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an apparatchik of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on their real needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration, under Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably quiescent suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and neocon policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those policies). Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the populist genie back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them. >>>> >>>> Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military policies of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity” with the rest of the world: . >>>> >>>> All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats) has to offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: . >>>> >>>> Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than that, but rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered support when it looked like he might win. >>>>> >>>>> As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be foolish not to take advantage of it. >>>>> >>>>> Deb >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. >>>>>> >>>>>> According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. >>>>>> AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Karen >>>>>>> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. >>>>>>> Deb >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Finequality%2F2017%2Fdec%2F14%2Finequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence&data=02%7C01%7C%7C7f8400f230894b2f0f1308d544abdf98%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490427334977158&sdata=Ct1xu8usGF7P5z5%2Bjc4romCThCYF3z83qGD%2Fqx6i0f0%3D&reserved=0 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 16 18:22:06 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 18:22:06 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Chris Hedges, brilliant as always, on "Fascism in the Age of Trump" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Action, yes, not tv, but action in the streets, it worked in the past, we have no alternative. Your continual arguing against rally’s, other than opposing war, like your continued “apology” for Trump, is a distraction. > On Dec 16, 2017, at 10:17, C G Estabrook wrote: > > Isn’t that what we should be doing, on (UP)TV and in demonstrations, for a yet-unknowing world? > > As Chesterton said, if a thing’s worth doing, it’s worth doing badly. > > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 12:12 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >> >> Sorry Carl, It’s not television, it’s U Tube, and there is no transcript. It’s not brief either. As to a summary, I would never presume to summarize Chris Hedges, anymore than I would presume to summarize Chomsky. >> >> >>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 08:54, C G Estabrook wrote: >>> >>> Give me a transcript (or at least a summary), dammit. >>> >>> I don’t have time to listen to someone talk on television. >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2Fi5X3NRD00FY&data=02%7C01%7C%7C04780bd593a34ddd07b508d544a5a68f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490400606150599&sdata=QD31u5JMwzC1O883AcXa2mSWehMcQQfOB%2BRK628v%2FXM%3D&reserved=0 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C04780bd593a34ddd07b508d544a5a68f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490400606150599&sdata=UhMEEw7tOeYKnOqCoZmXetdcRsCBGFA4Ke%2BJQdZ1PR4%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> > From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 18:39:59 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 12:39:59 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Chris Hedges, brilliant as always, on "Fascism in the Age of Trump" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62D12F6C-2C32-4318-94BD-6B4B20E66266@gmail.com> I neither argue against rallies nor apologize for Trump. I do think it important to tell the truth about both. Cf. ‘free speech’ (even for antifa); and >. > On Dec 16, 2017, at 12:22 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Action, yes, not tv, but action in the streets, it worked in the past, we have no alternative. Your continual arguing against rally’s, other than opposing war, like your continued “apology” for Trump, is a distraction. > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 10:17, C G Estabrook wrote: >> >> Isn’t that what we should be doing, on (UP)TV and in demonstrations, for a yet-unknowing world? >> >> As Chesterton said, if a thing’s worth doing, it’s worth doing badly. >> >> >>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 12:12 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>> >>> Sorry Carl, It’s not television, it’s U Tube, and there is no transcript. It’s not brief either. As to a summary, I would never presume to summarize Chris Hedges, anymore than I would presume to summarize Chomsky. >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 08:54, C G Estabrook wrote: >>>> >>>> Give me a transcript (or at least a summary), dammit. >>>> >>>> I don’t have time to listen to someone talk on television. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>> >>>>> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2Fi5X3NRD00FY&data=02%7C01%7C%7C04780bd593a34ddd07b508d544a5a68f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490400606150599&sdata=QD31u5JMwzC1O883AcXa2mSWehMcQQfOB%2BRK628v%2FXM%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C04780bd593a34ddd07b508d544a5a68f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490400606150599&sdata=UhMEEw7tOeYKnOqCoZmXetdcRsCBGFA4Ke%2BJQdZ1PR4%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 18:47:45 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 12:47:45 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu> <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com> Message-ID: And thus the native hue of resolution Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought, And enterprises of great pith and moment With this regard their currents turn awry, And lose the name of action.—Soft you now, The sanguine Aram!—Nymph, in thy orisons Be all my sins remembered. I think I may get out of my armchair today. > On Dec 16, 2017, at 12:20 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Carl, support for Trump, who is not the problem, yes, he is dangerous, but he is not the problem, he is a symptom. Trump represents the corporate elites and they are on a rampage, only resistance to the issues and policy’s and corporate capitalism will bring progress. Not the Democrats, they’re owned by Wall Street, and any assumption that Bernie as a supporter of the Democrat is going to bring change is a mistake as well. > > Once the polar ice caps are gone, it will take thousands of years to bring them back, if ever. We have no time, no time at all. > > Sorry I don’t have time to read Caitlyn’s article, because action is what we need, and we do have a rally today to which some of us will attend. Arm chair warriors are dangerous distractions, if they aren’t enlightening. > > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 09:38, C G Estabrook wrote: >> >> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise >> >> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of. >> >> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”. >> >> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore. >> >> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn. >> >> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work. >> >> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now. >> >> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force. >> >> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead. >> >> --– Caitlin Johnstone >> >> >>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace wrote: >>> >>> I agree with your characterization of Trump, fully. He is incoherent, inept, and ignorant, even to those who have interviewed him with the intent of showing him to be less so. That anyone would put faith, or hope, in whatever he says is e extremely foolish. A very dangerous dilemma for the nation, and the world. >>> Thanks. mkb >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 4:17 AM, John W. via Peace wrote: >>>> >>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace wrote: >>>> >>>> Did it ever occur to you that Trump might have been LYING when he criticized "neolib and neocon policies" in order to stoke voter anger and gain votes, just like he lied about draining the swamp, respecting women, not hurting Medicare and Social Security, providing "terrific" health care for everyone, and too many other subjects to mention? >>>> >>>> Deb >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> Even the term "lying" seems too rational or calculated or sophisticated, somehow, to describe tRump. You can't THEORIZE about tRump in anything like the normal way. I would simply say that tRump is so far gone that his words bear absolutely no relation to his actions or intentions, which are impulsive and childish and motivated solely by insecurity and narcissism, certainly not by any coherent ideology. His words are never to be believed or trusted, to a far greater degree even than the average politician. They are simply to be ignored, and his actions observed and noted as the actions of a madman. He's a dangerous child with the nuclear codes. >>>> >>>> John Wason >>>> >>>> >>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 8:41 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" wrote: >>>> >>>>> The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war) abroad, and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an apparatchik of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on their real needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration, under Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably quiescent suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and neocon policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those policies). Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the populist genie back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them. >>>>> >>>>> Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military policies of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity” with the rest of the world: . >>>>> >>>>> All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats) has to offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: . >>>>> >>>>> Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than that, but rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered support when it looked like he might win. >>>>>> >>>>>> As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be foolish not to take advantage of it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Deb >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. >>>>>>> AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Karen >>>>>>>> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. >>>>>>>> Deb >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Finequality%2F2017%2Fdec%2F14%2Finequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence&data=02%7C01%7C%7C7f8400f230894b2f0f1308d544abdf98%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490427334977158&sdata=Ct1xu8usGF7P5z5%2Bjc4romCThCYF3z83qGD%2Fqx6i0f0%3D&reserved=0 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From brussel at illinois.edu Sat Dec 16 20:20:14 2017 From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 20:20:14 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com> References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu> <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu> Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong, address to a Sanctuary audience. . —mkb > On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook wrote: > > Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise > > The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of. > > When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”. > > The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore. > > This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn. > > Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work. > > As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now. > > There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force. > > You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead. > > --– Caitlin Johnstone > > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace wrote: >> >> I agree with your characterization of Trump, fully. He is incoherent, inept, and ignorant, even to those who have interviewed him with the intent of showing him to be less so. That anyone would put faith, or hope, in whatever he says is e extremely foolish. A very dangerous dilemma for the nation, and the world. >> Thanks. mkb >> >> >>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 4:17 AM, John W. via Peace wrote: >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace wrote: >>> >>> Did it ever occur to you that Trump might have been LYING when he criticized "neolib and neocon policies" in order to stoke voter anger and gain votes, just like he lied about draining the swamp, respecting women, not hurting Medicare and Social Security, providing "terrific" health care for everyone, and too many other subjects to mention? >>> >>> Deb >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> Even the term "lying" seems too rational or calculated or sophisticated, somehow, to describe tRump. You can't THEORIZE about tRump in anything like the normal way. I would simply say that tRump is so far gone that his words bear absolutely no relation to his actions or intentions, which are impulsive and childish and motivated solely by insecurity and narcissism, certainly not by any coherent ideology. His words are never to be believed or trusted, to a far greater degree even than the average politician. They are simply to be ignored, and his actions observed and noted as the actions of a madman. He's a dangerous child with the nuclear codes. >>> >>> John Wason >>> >>> >>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 8:41 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" wrote: >>> >>>> The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war) abroad, and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an apparatchik of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on their real needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration, under Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably quiescent suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and neocon policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those policies). Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the populist genie back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them. >>>> >>>> Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military policies of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity” with the rest of the world: . >>>> >>>> All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats) has to offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: . >>>> >>>> Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than that, but rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered support when it looked like he might win. >>>>> >>>>> As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be foolish not to take advantage of it. >>>>> >>>>> Deb >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. >>>>>> >>>>>> According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. >>>>>> AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Karen >>>>>>> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. >>>>>>> Deb >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 22:02:42 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 16:02:42 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu> References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu> <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com> <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <2ECC75BA-4204-45D1-8953-06116E9D50FD@gmail.com> How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that deploring Trump’s character is not the way. The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of war and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies. He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and that was enough to terrify the neocons. Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points that out clearly. Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war ‘center’ … the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…" That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US war-making is. —CGE > On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong, address to a Sanctuary audience. . > > —mkb > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook wrote: >> >> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise >> >> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of. >> >> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”. >> >> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore. >> >> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn. >> >> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work. >> >> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now. >> >> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force. >> >> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead. >> >> --– Caitlin Johnstone >> >> >>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace wrote: >>> >>> I agree with your characterization of Trump, fully. He is incoherent, inept, and ignorant, even to those who have interviewed him with the intent of showing him to be less so. That anyone would put faith, or hope, in whatever he says is e extremely foolish. A very dangerous dilemma for the nation, and the world. >>> Thanks. mkb >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 4:17 AM, John W. via Peace wrote: >>>> >>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace wrote: >>>> >>>> Did it ever occur to you that Trump might have been LYING when he criticized "neolib and neocon policies" in order to stoke voter anger and gain votes, just like he lied about draining the swamp, respecting women, not hurting Medicare and Social Security, providing "terrific" health care for everyone, and too many other subjects to mention? >>>> >>>> Deb >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> Even the term "lying" seems too rational or calculated or sophisticated, somehow, to describe tRump. You can't THEORIZE about tRump in anything like the normal way. I would simply say that tRump is so far gone that his words bear absolutely no relation to his actions or intentions, which are impulsive and childish and motivated solely by insecurity and narcissism, certainly not by any coherent ideology. His words are never to be believed or trusted, to a far greater degree even than the average politician. They are simply to be ignored, and his actions observed and noted as the actions of a madman. He's a dangerous child with the nuclear codes. >>>> >>>> John Wason >>>> >>>> >>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 8:41 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" wrote: >>>> >>>>> The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war) abroad, and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an apparatchik of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on their real needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration, under Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably quiescent suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and neocon policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those policies). Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the populist genie back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them. >>>>> >>>>> Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military policies of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity” with the rest of the world: . >>>>> >>>>> All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats) has to offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: . >>>>> >>>>> Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than that, but rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered support when it looked like he might win. >>>>>> >>>>>> As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be foolish not to take advantage of it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Deb >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. >>>>>>> AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Karen >>>>>>>> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. >>>>>>>> Deb >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 16 22:50:24 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 22:50:24 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Chris Hedges, brilliant as always, on "Fascism in the Age of Trump" In-Reply-To: <62D12F6C-2C32-4318-94BD-6B4B20E66266@gmail.com> References: <62D12F6C-2C32-4318-94BD-6B4B20E66266@gmail.com> Message-ID: Carl Glad you came, and one can certainly say, the truth was told at the anti-tax rally today, no holding back. These young people understand what they are facing and they’re not relying on electoral politics, or the Democrats to bail us out. They know, reform isn’t the answer. They know its the capitalist system that has brought us to this, and what we need is “structural" change. On Dec 16, 2017, at 10:39, C G Estabrook > wrote: I neither argue against rallies nor apologize for Trump. I do think it important to tell the truth about both. Cf. ‘free speech’ (even for antifa); and >. On Dec 16, 2017, at 12:22 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: Action, yes, not tv, but action in the streets, it worked in the past, we have no alternative. Your continual arguing against rally’s, other than opposing war, like your continued “apology” for Trump, is a distraction. On Dec 16, 2017, at 10:17, C G Estabrook > wrote: Isn’t that what we should be doing, on (UP)TV and in demonstrations, for a yet-unknowing world? As Chesterton said, if a thing’s worth doing, it’s worth doing badly. On Dec 16, 2017, at 12:12 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: Sorry Carl, It’s not television, it’s U Tube, and there is no transcript. It’s not brief either. As to a summary, I would never presume to summarize Chris Hedges, anymore than I would presume to summarize Chomsky. On Dec 16, 2017, at 08:54, C G Estabrook > wrote: Give me a transcript (or at least a summary), dammit. I don’t have time to listen to someone talk on television. On Dec 16, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2Fi5X3NRD00FY&data=02%7C01%7C%7C04780bd593a34ddd07b508d544a5a68f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490400606150599&sdata=QD31u5JMwzC1O883AcXa2mSWehMcQQfOB%2BRK628v%2FXM%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C04780bd593a34ddd07b508d544a5a68f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490400606150599&sdata=UhMEEw7tOeYKnOqCoZmXetdcRsCBGFA4Ke%2BJQdZ1PR4%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbw292002 at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 23:08:51 2017 From: jbw292002 at gmail.com (John W.) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 17:08:51 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: <2ECC75BA-4204-45D1-8953-06116E9D50FD@gmail.com> References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu> <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com> <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu> <2ECC75BA-4204-45D1-8953-06116E9D50FD@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM, C G Estabrook wrote: How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that > deploring Trump’s character is not the way. > > The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of war > and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat > administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as > a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies. > > He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and > that was enough to terrify the neocons. > > Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points that > out clearly. > > Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what > remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war > ‘center’ … the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into > supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…" > > That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US > war-making is. —CGE > Except that U.S. war-making antedates tRump, and Coolidge, and indeed the birth of the Republic. :-/ War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature. U.S. imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much. It's a continuum. And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states. Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc. > > On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > > > Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the > point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies > rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more > generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the > rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must > go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong, > address to a Sanctuary audience. . > > > > —mkb > > > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook > wrote: > >> > >> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise > >> > >> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their > narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama > yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been > ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t > care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how > this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever > moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like > to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics > that this is a part of. > >> > >> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I > don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, > nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many > legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By > anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult > which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and > at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a > deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left > into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”. > >> > >> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general > “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game > both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. > Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the > most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones > campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still > viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This > extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator > who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help > move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in > self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore. > >> > >> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a > much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that > Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and > (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the > political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and > agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an > imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for > their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn. > >> > >> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists > telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to > impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t > and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, > charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they > “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third > party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand > a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When > it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the > Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they > “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward > economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But > Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country > further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as > long as it continues to work. > >> > >> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way > it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When > this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just > like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last > one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd > the left into the center, just like they’re doing now. > >> > >> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that > progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party > beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment > and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this > simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore > up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which > Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which > only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media > influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force. > >> > >> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US > politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do > isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to > walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at > the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and > you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves > all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into > conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your > minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead. > >> > >> --– Caitlin Johnstone > >> > >> > >>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace < > peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > >>> > >>> I agree with your characterization of Trump, fully. He is incoherent, > inept, and ignorant, even to those who have interviewed him with the intent > of showing him to be less so. That anyone would put faith, or hope, in > whatever he says is e extremely foolish. A very dangerous dilemma for the > nation, and the world. > >>> Thanks. mkb > >>> > >>> > >>>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 4:17 AM, John W. via Peace < > peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace < > peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Did it ever occur to you that Trump might have been LYING when he > criticized "neolib and neocon policies" in order to stoke voter anger and > gain votes, just like he lied about draining the swamp, respecting women, > not hurting Medicare and Social Security, providing "terrific" health care > for everyone, and too many other subjects to mention? > >>>> > >>>> Deb > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>> > >>>> Even the term "lying" seems too rational or calculated or > sophisticated, somehow, to describe tRump. You can't THEORIZE about tRump > in anything like the normal way. I would simply say that tRump is so far > gone that his words bear absolutely no relation to his actions or > intentions, which are impulsive and childish and motivated solely by > insecurity and narcissism, certainly not by any coherent ideology. His > words are never to be believed or trusted, to a far greater degree even > than the average politician. They are simply to be ignored, and his > actions observed and noted as the actions of a madman. He's a dangerous > child with the nuclear codes. > >>>> > >>>> John Wason > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 8:41 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" < > galliher at illinois.edu> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war) > abroad, and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an > apparatchik of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on > their real needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration, > under Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably > quiescent suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and > neocon policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those > policies). Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the > populist genie back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them. > >>>>> > >>>>> Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military > policies of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity” > with the rest of the world: inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable- > but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence>. > >>>>> > >>>>> All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats) > has to offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: caityjohnstone/anti-trumpism-is-anti-progressivism-in- > disguise-9e688e6152e9>. > >>>>> > >>>>> Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than > that, but rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of > public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly > represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those > who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic > grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back > and only offered support when it looked like he might win. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and > screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of > setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be > foolish not to take advantage of it. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Deb > >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat > Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially > their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a > change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something > for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I > have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for > the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them > to walk free. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first > time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. > Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones > against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, > sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. > >>>>>>> AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, > with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for > defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted > for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for > Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. > A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being > accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when > they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone > Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary > during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have > won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black > women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies > and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that > effort,” unquote. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn < > deb.pdamerica at gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Karen > >>>>>>>> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate > Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted > Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. > >>>>>>>> Deb > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace < > peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such > extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many > nations in sub saharan African villages. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/ > inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a- > recipe-for-divergence > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to > strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively > debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and > dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking > going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being > reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list > >>>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Peace-discuss mailing list > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 23:24:33 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 17:24:33 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu> <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com> <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu> <2ECC75BA-4204-45D1-8953-06116E9D50FD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7347E5C3-8497-46C2-A6E9-559A1525E43E@gmail.com> Would this strike you as a reasonable defense of WWII in Europe? “…German war-making antedates Hitler, and Roosevelt, and indeed the birth of modern Germany. War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature. German imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much. It's a continuum. And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states. Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.” My question is not rhetorical. See Nicholson Baker, "Human Smoke: The Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization” (2008). —CGE > On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:08 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: > > How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that deploring Trump’s character is not the way. > > The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of war and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies. > > He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and that was enough to terrify the neocons. > > Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points that out clearly. > > Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war ‘center’ … the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…" > > That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US war-making is. —CGE > > > Except that U.S. war-making antedates tRump, and Coolidge, and indeed the birth of the Republic. :-/ War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature. U.S. imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much. It's a continuum. And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states. Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc. > > > > > > On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > > > Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong, address to a Sanctuary audience. . > > > > —mkb > > > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook > wrote: > >> > >> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise > >> > >> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of. > >> > >> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”. > >> > >> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore. > >> > >> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn. > >> > >> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work. > >> > >> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now. > >> > >> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force. > >> > >> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead. > >> > >> --– Caitlin Johnstone > > >> > >> > >>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace > wrote: > >>> > >>> I agree with your characterization of Trump, fully. He is incoherent, inept, and ignorant, even to those who have interviewed him with the intent of showing him to be less so. That anyone would put faith, or hope, in whatever he says is e extremely foolish. A very dangerous dilemma for the nation, and the world. > >>> Thanks. mkb > >>> > >>> > >>>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 4:17 AM, John W. via Peace > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Did it ever occur to you that Trump might have been LYING when he criticized "neolib and neocon policies" in order to stoke voter anger and gain votes, just like he lied about draining the swamp, respecting women, not hurting Medicare and Social Security, providing "terrific" health care for everyone, and too many other subjects to mention? > >>>> > >>>> Deb > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>> > >>>> Even the term "lying" seems too rational or calculated or sophisticated, somehow, to describe tRump. You can't THEORIZE about tRump in anything like the normal way. I would simply say that tRump is so far gone that his words bear absolutely no relation to his actions or intentions, which are impulsive and childish and motivated solely by insecurity and narcissism, certainly not by any coherent ideology. His words are never to be believed or trusted, to a far greater degree even than the average politician. They are simply to be ignored, and his actions observed and noted as the actions of a madman. He's a dangerous child with the nuclear codes. > >>>> > >>>> John Wason > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 8:41 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war) abroad, and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an apparatchik of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on their real needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration, under Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably quiescent suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and neocon policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those policies). Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the populist genie back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them. > >>>>> > >>>>> Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military policies of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity” with the rest of the world: >. > >>>>> > >>>>> All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats) has to offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: >. > >>>>> > >>>>> Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than that, but rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered support when it looked like he might win. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be foolish not to take advantage of it. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Deb > >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. > >>>>>>> AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn > wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Karen > >>>>>>>> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. > >>>>>>>> Deb > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace > wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky] > >>>>>>>>>> ___________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbw292002 at gmail.com Sun Dec 17 00:32:43 2017 From: jbw292002 at gmail.com (John W.) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 18:32:43 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: <7347E5C3-8497-46C2-A6E9-559A1525E43E@gmail.com> References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu> <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com> <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu> <2ECC75BA-4204-45D1-8953-06116E9D50FD@gmail.com> <7347E5C3-8497-46C2-A6E9-559A1525E43E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook wrote: Would this strike you as a reasonable defense of WWII in Europe? > > “…German war-making antedates Hitler, and Roosevelt, and indeed the birth > of modern Germany. War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic > of human nature. German imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much. > It's a continuum. And imperialism in general characterizes every > militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states. Even > earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.” > > My question is not rhetorical. See Nicholson Baker, "Human Smoke: The > Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization” (2008). > > —CGE > There's rarely a defense for war, and never for imperialism. But German imperialism and the notion that Germans were somehow a superior "race" certainly predated Hitler. He didn't invent it; he merely carried it a step further. What has been much more surprising is how Germany has reinvented itself in such a progressive way since World War II. But don't hold your breath. Neo-Nazism lurks just barely beneath the surface in Germany, just as it does in America. The pendulum will swing again, and man's brute nature will reassert itself. > On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:08 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: > > How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that >> deploring Trump’s character is not the way. >> >> The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of >> war and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat >> administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as >> a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies. >> >> He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and >> that was enough to terrify the neocons. >> >> Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points >> that out clearly. >> >> Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what >> remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war >> ‘center’ … the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into >> supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…" >> >> That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US >> war-making is. —CGE >> > > > Except that U.S. war-making antedates tRump, and Coolidge, and indeed the > birth of the Republic. :-/ War-making is a permanent and immutable > characteristic of human nature. U.S. imperialism is a bit more recent, but > not much. It's a continuum. And imperialism in general characterizes > every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states. Even > earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc. > > > > > >> > On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss < >> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: >> > >> > Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the >> point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies >> rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more >> generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the >> rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must >> go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong, >> address to a Sanctuary audience. . >> > >> > —mkb >> > >> >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise >> >> >> >> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their >> narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama >> yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been >> ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t >> care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how >> this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever >> moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like >> to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics >> that this is a part of. >> >> >> >> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I >> don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, >> nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many >> legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By >> anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult >> which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and >> at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a >> deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left >> into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”. >> >> >> >> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general >> “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game >> both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. >> Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the >> most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones >> campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still >> viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This >> extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator >> who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help >> move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in >> self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore. >> >> >> >> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a >> much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that >> Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and >> (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the >> political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and >> agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an >> imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for >> their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn. >> >> >> >> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists >> telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to >> impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t >> and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, >> charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they >> “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third >> party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand >> a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When >> it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the >> Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they >> “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward >> economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But >> Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country >> further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as >> long as it continues to work. >> >> >> >> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way >> it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When >> this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just >> like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last >> one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd >> the left into the center, just like they’re doing now. >> >> >> >> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that >> progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party >> beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment >> and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this >> simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore >> up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which >> Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which >> only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media >> influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force. >> >> >> >> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US >> politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do >> isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to >> walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at >> the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and >> you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves >> all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into >> conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your >> minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead. >> >> >> >> --– Caitlin Johnstone >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brussel at illinois.edu Sun Dec 17 01:05:33 2017 From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 01:05:33 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu> <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com> <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu> <2ECC75BA-4204-45D1-8953-06116E9D50FD@gmail.com> <7347E5C3-8497-46C2-A6E9-559A1525E43E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7ED0A5D4-0004-4BC4-9EFE-711D28B0CA4B@illinois.edu> Simply a comment: Down with imperialism!! Or do we need a multi-imperial MAD world system in the name of stability. How about a new empowered better UN? Less facetiously, concerning Trump: Two primary global human concerns, as emphasized by Chomsky, are nuclear war and human induced climate warming. On both, Trump has the power to do unparalleld damage, as he has done by withdrawing from the Paris climate pact and encouraging the greater use of fossil fuels here, and moreover, he has the ability(??) to press the buttons starting a nuclear war. Those issues, chief among others, are not to be ignored, au contraire!. This is not to say that a Dem or Publican leader could not do the same if in power. On Dec 16, 2017, at 6:32 PM, John W. > wrote: On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: Would this strike you as a reasonable defense of WWII in Europe? “…German war-making antedates Hitler, and Roosevelt, and indeed the birth of modern Germany. War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature. German imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much. It's a continuum. And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states. Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.” My question is not rhetorical. See Nicholson Baker, "Human Smoke: The Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization” (2008). —CGE There's rarely a defense for war, and never for imperialism. But German imperialism and the notion that Germans were somehow a superior "race" certainly predated Hitler. He didn't invent it; he merely carried it a step further. What has been much more surprising is how Germany has reinvented itself in such a progressive way since World War II. But don't hold your breath. Neo-Nazism lurks just barely beneath the surface in Germany, just as it does in America. The pendulum will swing again, and man's brute nature will reassert itself. On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:08 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss > wrote: On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that deploring Trump’s character is not the way. The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of war and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies. He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and that was enough to terrify the neocons. Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points that out clearly. Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war ‘center’ … the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…" That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US war-making is. —CGE Except that U.S. war-making antedates tRump, and Coolidge, and indeed the birth of the Republic. :-/ War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature. U.S. imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much. It's a continuum. And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states. Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc. > On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong, address to a Sanctuary audience. . > > —mkb > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook > wrote: >> >> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise >> >> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of. >> >> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”. >> >> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore. >> >> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn. >> >> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work. >> >> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now. >> >> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force. >> >> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead. >> >> --– Caitlin Johnstone > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sun Dec 17 01:53:09 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 19:53:09 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu> <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com> <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu> <2ECC75BA-4204-45D1-8953-06116E9D50FD@gmail.com> <7347E5C3-8497-46C2-A6E9-559A1525E43E@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Why Nicholson Baker is a pacifist Anyone who makes even a modest habit of speaking out against war in public soon runs up against the inevitable, supposedly unanswerable question: What about World War II? (We have a whole category devoted to it.) It’s meant to be the ultimate stumper. This was the “good war,” wasn’t it, the war waged by the “greatest generation” against the evil incarnate of Hitler and imperial Japan? There was simply no other choice before the forces of goodness and truth but to leap into the single most deadly undertaking in all of human history. Right? That won’t work if you’re talking to Nicholson Baker. In an extraordinary cover story in this month’s issue of Harper’s Magazine, “Why I’m a Pacifist: The Dangerous Myth of the Good War,” Baker explains how learning about World War II was actually a big part of what made him a pacifist in the first place. “In fact,” he writes, the more I learn about the war, the more I understand that the pacifists were the only ones, during a time of catastrophic violence, who repeatedly put forward proposals that had any chance of saving a threatened people. They weren’t naïve, they weren’t unrealistic—they were psychologically acute realists. His thinking began drifting this way during the Gulf War, and continued to evolve through the sequence of American military operations since. In the Balkans, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and in talk about bombing Iran, he noticed that World War II kept coming up. It kept being used to justify one war after another. Every new enemy only had to be painted as another Hitler to ensure public support. By 2008, Baker published Human Smoke, a book that collects documents, newspaper reports, and notable utterances during the lead-up to World War II, revealing how determined the Allied leaders were to fight at any cost. But, because of its form, we don’t get much of his own voice in that book. “Why I’m a Pacifist” is a chance to hear more directly from Baker himself about how he came to the conclusions that he did about the war. I was so thrilled with the essay that the moment I put it down I wanted more, so I wrote to Baker with some questions about what he’d said. Our exchange was as follows: WNV: Why did you decide to write Human Smoke the way you did, and why now write about World War II again as you do in Harper’s? NB: Human Smoke deals atomistically with the beginnings of the war because I thought that was a good way of conveying the confusion and sadness of what was going on. You have to pause and think moment by moment in order to feel the gradual disintegration of civil restraint. The book stopped at the end of 1941. The Harper’s piece mostly concentrates on events from 1942 on, and it’s an effort to take up one big question: Were the pacifists right in calling for an immediate negotiated peace? WNV: Why do you say at the outset of the essay that you don’t expect most people to be persuaded? Is pacifism really such a lost cause? NB: No, pacifism isn’t a lost cause—in fact, most people, even generals and headbanging bar brawlers, act peaceably most of the time, or we’d get nothing done. “I’m not going to kill you” is basic to all cooperation. But during wars, pacifists are often in the minority and their arguments (so I’ve found!) make people really mad. Over time, these same people may and often do change their thinking, but it isn’t going to happen all at once. An inductive “nonviolent” approach to argumentation sometimes helps. WNV: What do you think American pacifists can do now, or should have done, to stop wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Libya? NB: American pacifists made heroic efforts to end those wars, using every channel available. They deserve our thanks. Afterward, when more people acknowledge that a military attack was a mistake, it helps to go back and see who really understood what was going on. I find it incredibly moving to see how right they were. Being able to stop a war isn’t the only reason for protesting a war. You may fail, but you still want to get it on record that there was an obvious better way as it was happening. The objection to any war has to be steady and constant, and one way of objecting is to re-examine historical touchstones. I wrote Human Smoke and “Why I’m a Pacifist” to recall, as others have, that the war resisters of World War II offered paths out of the horror at the time. Their steadiness and belief in reconciliation can help us now. We need new heroes. I’d rather think about Jessie Hughan, Abe Kaufman, Dorothy Day, Rabbi Cronbach, or Vera Brittain than Winston Churchill. WNV: What business does a novelist have to write on matters of war and peace anyway? NB: Tell that to Tolstoy. —. > On Dec 16, 2017, at 6:32 PM, John W. wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: > > Would this strike you as a reasonable defense of WWII in Europe? > > “…German war-making antedates Hitler, and Roosevelt, and indeed the birth of modern Germany. War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature. German imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much. It's a continuum. And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states. Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.” > > My question is not rhetorical. See Nicholson Baker, "Human Smoke: The Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization” (2008). > > —CGE > > There's rarely a defense for war, and never for imperialism. But German imperialism and the notion that Germans were somehow a superior "race" certainly predated Hitler. He didn't invent it; he merely carried it a step further. > > What has been much more surprising is how Germany has reinvented itself in such a progressive way since World War II. But don't hold your breath. Neo-Nazism lurks just barely beneath the surface in Germany, just as it does in America. The pendulum will swing again, and man's brute nature will reassert itself. > > > > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:08 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: >> >> How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that deploring Trump’s character is not the way. >> >> The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of war and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies. >> >> He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and that was enough to terrify the neocons. >> >> Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points that out clearly. >> >> Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war ‘center’ … the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…" >> >> That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US war-making is. —CGE >> >> >> Except that U.S. war-making antedates tRump, and Coolidge, and indeed the birth of the Republic. :-/ War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature. U.S. imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much. It's a continuum. And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states. Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc. >> >> >> >> >> > On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> > >> > Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong, address to a Sanctuary audience. . >> > >> > —mkb >> > >> >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook > wrote: >> >> >> >> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise >> >> >> >> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of. >> >> >> >> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”. >> >> >> >> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore. >> >> >> >> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn. >> >> >> >> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work. >> >> >> >> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now. >> >> >> >> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force. >> >> >> >> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead. >> >> >> >> --– Caitlin Johnstone > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davegreen84 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 17 07:03:51 2017 From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 07:03:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu> <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com> <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu> <2ECC75BA-4204-45D1-8953-06116E9D50FD@gmail.com> <7347E5C3-8497-46C2-A6E9-559A1525E43E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1128850730.26540.1513494231726@mail.yahoo.com> Regarding one of the names mentioned at the bottom of the Baker interview: I recall a Masterpiece Theater series on Vera Brittain's A Testament of Youth (regarding World War I) in 1980; I have not seen the 2014 movie of the same name. >From Wikipedia: She was a practical pacifist in the sense that she helped the war effort by working as a fire warden and by travelling around the country raising funds for the Peace Pledge Union's food relief campaign. She was vilified for speaking out against saturation bombing of German cities through her 1944 booklet Massacre by Bombing. In 1945, the Nazis' Black Book of nearly 3,000 people to be immediately arrested in Britain after a German invasion was shown to include her name.[5] >From the 1930s onwards, Brittain was a regular contributor to the pacifist magazine Peace News. She eventually became a member of the magazine's editorial board and during the 1950s and 1960s was "writing articles against apartheid and colonialism and in favour of nuclear disarmament".[6] In November 1966, she suffered a fall in a badly lit London street en route to a speaking engagement. She attended the engagement, but afterwards found she had suffered a fractured left arm and broken little finger of her right hand. These injuries began a physical decline in which her mind became more confused and withdrawn.[7] Vera Brittain never fully got over the death in June 1918 of her beloved brother, Edward. She died in Wimbledon on 29 March 1970, aged 76. Her will requested that her ashes be scattered on Edward's grave on the Asiago Plateau in Italy – "...for nearly 50 years much of my heart has been in that Italian village cemetery"[8]— and her daughter honoured this request in September 1970.[9] On ‎Saturday‎, ‎December‎ ‎16‎, ‎2017‎ ‎07‎:‎53‎:‎47‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: Why Nicholson Baker is a pacifist Anyone who makes even a modest habit of speaking out against war in public soon runs up against the inevitable, supposedly unanswerable question: What about World War II? (We have a whole category devoted to it.) It’s meant to be the ultimate stumper. This was the “good war,” wasn’t it, the war waged by the “greatest generation” against the evil incarnate of Hitler and imperial Japan? There was simply no other choice before the forces of goodness and truth but to leap into the single most deadly undertaking in all of human history. Right? That won’t work if you’re talking to Nicholson Baker. In an extraordinary cover story in this month’s issue of Harper’s Magazine, “Why I’m a Pacifist: The Dangerous Myth of the Good War,”  Baker explains how learning about World War II was actually a big part of what made him a pacifist in the first place. “In fact,” he writes, the more I learn about the war, the more I understand that the pacifists were the only ones, during a time of catastrophic violence, who repeatedly put forward proposals that had any chance of saving a threatened people. They weren’t naïve, they weren’t unrealistic—they were psychologically acute realists. His thinking began drifting this way during the Gulf War, and continued to evolve through the sequence of American military operations since. In the Balkans, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and in talk about bombing Iran, he noticed that World War II kept coming up. It kept being used to justify one war after another. Every new enemy only had to be painted as another Hitler to ensure public support. By 2008, Baker published Human Smoke, a book that collects documents, newspaper reports, and notable utterances during the lead-up to World War II, revealing how determined the Allied leaders were to fight at any cost. But, because of its form, we don’t get much of his own voice in that book. “Why I’m a Pacifist” is a chance to hear more directly from Baker himself about how he came to the conclusions that he did about the war. I was so thrilled with the essay that the moment I put it down I wanted more, so I wrote to Baker with some questions about what he’d said. Our exchange was as follows: WNV: Why did you decide to write Human Smoke the way you did, and why now write about World War II again as you do in Harper’s? NB: Human Smoke deals atomistically with the beginnings of the war because I thought that was a good way of conveying the confusion and sadness of what was going on. You have to pause and think moment by moment in order to feel the gradual disintegration of civil restraint. The book stopped at the end of 1941. The Harper’s piece mostly concentrates on events from 1942 on, and it’s an effort to take up one big question: Were the pacifists right in calling for an immediate negotiated peace? WNV: Why do you say at the outset of the essay that you don’t expect most people to be persuaded? Is pacifism really such a lost cause? NB: No, pacifism isn’t a lost cause—in fact, most people, even generals and headbanging bar brawlers, act peaceably most of the time, or we’d get nothing done. “I’m not going to kill you” is basic to all cooperation. But during wars, pacifists are often in the minority and their arguments (so I’ve found!) make people really mad. Over time, these same people may and often do change their thinking, but it isn’t going to happen all at once. An inductive “nonviolent” approach to argumentation sometimes helps. WNV: What do you think American pacifists can do now, or should have done, to stop wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Libya? NB: American pacifists made heroic efforts to end those wars, using every channel available. They deserve our thanks. Afterward, when more people acknowledge that a military attack was a mistake, it helps to go back and see who really understood what was going on. I find it incredibly moving to see how right they were. Being able to stop a war isn’t the only reason for protesting a war. You may fail, but you still want to get it on record that there was an obvious better way as it was happening. The objection to any war has to be steady and constant, and one way of objecting is to re-examine historical touchstones. I wrote Human Smoke and “Why I’m a Pacifist” to recall, as others have, that the war resisters of World War II offered paths out of the horror at the time. Their steadiness and belief in reconciliation can help us now. We need new heroes. I’d rather think about Jessie Hughan, Abe Kaufman, Dorothy Day, Rabbi Cronbach, or Vera Brittain than Winston Churchill. WNV: What business does a novelist have to write on matters of war and peace anyway? NB: Tell that to Tolstoy. —. On Dec 16, 2017, at 6:32 PM, John W. wrote: On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook wrote: Would this strike you as a reasonable defense of WWII in Europe? “…German war-making antedates Hitler, and Roosevelt, and indeed the birth of modern Germany. War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature.  German imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much.  It's a continuum.  And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states.  Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.” My question is not rhetorical. See Nicholson Baker, "Human Smoke: The Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization” (2008). —CGE There's rarely a defense for war, and never for imperialism.  But German imperialism and the notion that Germans were somehow a superior "race" certainly predated Hitler.  He didn't invent it; he merely carried it a step further. What has been much more surprising is how Germany has reinvented itself in such a progressive way since World War II.  But don't hold your breath.  Neo-Nazism lurks just barely beneath the surface in Germany, just as it does in America.  The pendulum will swing again, and man's brute nature will reassert itself.   On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:08 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss wrote: On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM, C G Estabrook wrote: How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that deploring Trump’s character  is not the way. The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of war and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies. He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and that was enough to terrify the neocons. Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points that out clearly. Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war ‘center’ …  the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…" That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US war-making is. —CGE Except that U.S. war-making antedates tRump, and Coolidge, and indeed the birth of the Republic.  :-/  War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature.  U.S. imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much.  It's a continuum.  And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states.  Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.   > On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong, address to a Sanctuary audience. . > > —mkb > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook wrote: >> >> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise >> >> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of. >> >> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”. >> >> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore. >> >> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn. >> >> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work. >> >> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now. >> >> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force. >> >> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead. >> >> --– Caitlin Johnstone _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davegreen84 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 17 07:03:51 2017 From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 07:03:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu> <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com> <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu> <2ECC75BA-4204-45D1-8953-06116E9D50FD@gmail.com> <7347E5C3-8497-46C2-A6E9-559A1525E43E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1128850730.26540.1513494231726@mail.yahoo.com> Regarding one of the names mentioned at the bottom of the Baker interview: I recall a Masterpiece Theater series on Vera Brittain's A Testament of Youth (regarding World War I) in 1980; I have not seen the 2014 movie of the same name. >From Wikipedia: She was a practical pacifist in the sense that she helped the war effort by working as a fire warden and by travelling around the country raising funds for the Peace Pledge Union's food relief campaign. She was vilified for speaking out against saturation bombing of German cities through her 1944 booklet Massacre by Bombing. In 1945, the Nazis' Black Book of nearly 3,000 people to be immediately arrested in Britain after a German invasion was shown to include her name.[5] >From the 1930s onwards, Brittain was a regular contributor to the pacifist magazine Peace News. She eventually became a member of the magazine's editorial board and during the 1950s and 1960s was "writing articles against apartheid and colonialism and in favour of nuclear disarmament".[6] In November 1966, she suffered a fall in a badly lit London street en route to a speaking engagement. She attended the engagement, but afterwards found she had suffered a fractured left arm and broken little finger of her right hand. These injuries began a physical decline in which her mind became more confused and withdrawn.[7] Vera Brittain never fully got over the death in June 1918 of her beloved brother, Edward. She died in Wimbledon on 29 March 1970, aged 76. Her will requested that her ashes be scattered on Edward's grave on the Asiago Plateau in Italy – "...for nearly 50 years much of my heart has been in that Italian village cemetery"[8]— and her daughter honoured this request in September 1970.[9] On ‎Saturday‎, ‎December‎ ‎16‎, ‎2017‎ ‎07‎:‎53‎:‎47‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: Why Nicholson Baker is a pacifist Anyone who makes even a modest habit of speaking out against war in public soon runs up against the inevitable, supposedly unanswerable question: What about World War II? (We have a whole category devoted to it.) It’s meant to be the ultimate stumper. This was the “good war,” wasn’t it, the war waged by the “greatest generation” against the evil incarnate of Hitler and imperial Japan? There was simply no other choice before the forces of goodness and truth but to leap into the single most deadly undertaking in all of human history. Right? That won’t work if you’re talking to Nicholson Baker. In an extraordinary cover story in this month’s issue of Harper’s Magazine, “Why I’m a Pacifist: The Dangerous Myth of the Good War,”  Baker explains how learning about World War II was actually a big part of what made him a pacifist in the first place. “In fact,” he writes, the more I learn about the war, the more I understand that the pacifists were the only ones, during a time of catastrophic violence, who repeatedly put forward proposals that had any chance of saving a threatened people. They weren’t naïve, they weren’t unrealistic—they were psychologically acute realists. His thinking began drifting this way during the Gulf War, and continued to evolve through the sequence of American military operations since. In the Balkans, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and in talk about bombing Iran, he noticed that World War II kept coming up. It kept being used to justify one war after another. Every new enemy only had to be painted as another Hitler to ensure public support. By 2008, Baker published Human Smoke, a book that collects documents, newspaper reports, and notable utterances during the lead-up to World War II, revealing how determined the Allied leaders were to fight at any cost. But, because of its form, we don’t get much of his own voice in that book. “Why I’m a Pacifist” is a chance to hear more directly from Baker himself about how he came to the conclusions that he did about the war. I was so thrilled with the essay that the moment I put it down I wanted more, so I wrote to Baker with some questions about what he’d said. Our exchange was as follows: WNV: Why did you decide to write Human Smoke the way you did, and why now write about World War II again as you do in Harper’s? NB: Human Smoke deals atomistically with the beginnings of the war because I thought that was a good way of conveying the confusion and sadness of what was going on. You have to pause and think moment by moment in order to feel the gradual disintegration of civil restraint. The book stopped at the end of 1941. The Harper’s piece mostly concentrates on events from 1942 on, and it’s an effort to take up one big question: Were the pacifists right in calling for an immediate negotiated peace? WNV: Why do you say at the outset of the essay that you don’t expect most people to be persuaded? Is pacifism really such a lost cause? NB: No, pacifism isn’t a lost cause—in fact, most people, even generals and headbanging bar brawlers, act peaceably most of the time, or we’d get nothing done. “I’m not going to kill you” is basic to all cooperation. But during wars, pacifists are often in the minority and their arguments (so I’ve found!) make people really mad. Over time, these same people may and often do change their thinking, but it isn’t going to happen all at once. An inductive “nonviolent” approach to argumentation sometimes helps. WNV: What do you think American pacifists can do now, or should have done, to stop wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Libya? NB: American pacifists made heroic efforts to end those wars, using every channel available. They deserve our thanks. Afterward, when more people acknowledge that a military attack was a mistake, it helps to go back and see who really understood what was going on. I find it incredibly moving to see how right they were. Being able to stop a war isn’t the only reason for protesting a war. You may fail, but you still want to get it on record that there was an obvious better way as it was happening. The objection to any war has to be steady and constant, and one way of objecting is to re-examine historical touchstones. I wrote Human Smoke and “Why I’m a Pacifist” to recall, as others have, that the war resisters of World War II offered paths out of the horror at the time. Their steadiness and belief in reconciliation can help us now. We need new heroes. I’d rather think about Jessie Hughan, Abe Kaufman, Dorothy Day, Rabbi Cronbach, or Vera Brittain than Winston Churchill. WNV: What business does a novelist have to write on matters of war and peace anyway? NB: Tell that to Tolstoy. —. On Dec 16, 2017, at 6:32 PM, John W. wrote: On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook wrote: Would this strike you as a reasonable defense of WWII in Europe? “…German war-making antedates Hitler, and Roosevelt, and indeed the birth of modern Germany. War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature.  German imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much.  It's a continuum.  And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states.  Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.” My question is not rhetorical. See Nicholson Baker, "Human Smoke: The Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization” (2008). —CGE There's rarely a defense for war, and never for imperialism.  But German imperialism and the notion that Germans were somehow a superior "race" certainly predated Hitler.  He didn't invent it; he merely carried it a step further. What has been much more surprising is how Germany has reinvented itself in such a progressive way since World War II.  But don't hold your breath.  Neo-Nazism lurks just barely beneath the surface in Germany, just as it does in America.  The pendulum will swing again, and man's brute nature will reassert itself.   On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:08 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss wrote: On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM, C G Estabrook wrote: How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that deploring Trump’s character  is not the way. The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of war and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies. He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and that was enough to terrify the neocons. Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points that out clearly. Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war ‘center’ …  the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…" That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US war-making is. —CGE Except that U.S. war-making antedates tRump, and Coolidge, and indeed the birth of the Republic.  :-/  War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature.  U.S. imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much.  It's a continuum.  And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states.  Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.   > On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong, address to a Sanctuary audience. . > > —mkb > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook wrote: >> >> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise >> >> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of. >> >> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”. >> >> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore. >> >> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn. >> >> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work. >> >> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now. >> >> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force. >> >> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead. >> >> --– Caitlin Johnstone _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill.strutz at gmail.com Sun Dec 17 07:38:00 2017 From: bill.strutz at gmail.com (Bill Strutz) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 01:38:00 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: <1128850730.26540.1513494231726@mail.yahoo.com> References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu> <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com> <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu> <2ECC75BA-4204-45D1-8953-06116E9D50FD@gmail.com> <7347E5C3-8497-46C2-A6E9-559A1525E43E@gmail.com> <1128850730.26540.1513494231726@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Please use the "peace" list properly. Some of us opted out of "peace-discuss" because we don't want to be saturated -- so leave us out. -- Bill On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 1:03 AM, David Green via Peace < peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > Regarding one of the names mentioned at the bottom of the Baker interview: > I recall a Masterpiece Theater series on Vera Brittain's A Testament of > Youth (regarding World War I) in 1980; I have not seen the 2014 movie of > the same name. > > From Wikipedia: > > She was a practical pacifist in the sense that she helped the war effort > by working as a *fire warden* > and by travelling > around the country raising funds for the *Peace Pledge Union* > 's food relief > campaign. She was vilified for speaking out against *saturation bombing* > of German cities through > her 1944 booklet *Massacre by Bombing*. In 1945, the *Nazis'* > *Black Book* > of nearly 3,000 people to > be immediately arrested in Britain after a *German invasion* > was shown to include > her name.*[5]* > > From the 1930s onwards, Brittain was a regular contributor to the pacifist > magazine *Peace News *. She > eventually became a member of the magazine's editorial board and during the > 1950s and 1960s was "writing articles against *apartheid* > and *colonialism* > and in favour of *nuclear > disarmament* ".*[6]* > > > In November 1966, she suffered a fall in a badly lit London street en > route to a speaking engagement. She attended the engagement, but afterwards > found she had suffered a fractured left arm and broken little finger of her > right hand. These injuries began a physical decline in which her mind > became more confused and withdrawn.*[7]* > > > Vera Brittain never fully got over the death in June 1918 of her beloved > brother, Edward. She died in *Wimbledon* > on 29 March 1970, aged > 76. Her will requested that her ashes be scattered on Edward's grave on the > *Asiago* Plateau in Italy – > "...for nearly 50 years much of my heart has been in that Italian village > cemetery"*[8]* — > and her daughter honoured this request in September 1970.*[9]* > > > > On ‎Saturday‎, ‎December‎ ‎16‎, ‎2017‎ ‎07‎:‎53‎:‎47‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, C G > Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > > Why Nicholson Baker is a pacifist > > Anyone who makes even a modest habit of speaking out against war in > public soon runs up against the inevitable, supposedly unanswerable > question: What about World War II? (We have a whole category devoted to > it.) It’s meant to be the ultimate stumper. This was the “good war,” > wasn’t it, the war waged by the “greatest generation” against the > evil incarnate of Hitler and imperial Japan? There was simply no other > choice before the forces of goodness and truth but to leap into the > single most deadly undertaking in all of human history. Right? > > That won’t work if you’re talking to Nicholson Baker. In an extraordinary > cover story in this month’s issue of Harper’s Magazine, “Why I’m a > Pacifist: The Dangerous Myth of the Good War,” Baker explains how learning > about World War II was actually a big part of what made him a pacifist in > the first place. “In fact,” he writes, > > the more I learn about the war, the more I understand that the pacifists > were the only ones, during a time of catastrophic violence, who repeatedly > put forward proposals that had any chance of saving a threatened people. > They weren’t naïve, they weren’t unrealistic—they were psychologically > acute realists. > > His thinking began drifting this way during the Gulf War, and continued to > evolve through the sequence of American military operations since. In the > Balkans, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and in talk about bombing Iran, he > noticed that World War II kept coming up. It kept being used to justify one > war after another. Every new enemy only had to be painted as another Hitler > to ensure public support. > > By 2008, Baker published Human Smoke, a book that collects documents, > newspaper reports, and notable utterances during the lead-up to World War > II, revealing how determined the Allied leaders were to fight at any cost. > But, because of its form, we don’t get much of his own voice in that book. > “Why I’m a Pacifist” is a chance to hear more directly from Baker himself > about how he came to the conclusions that he did about the war. > > I was so thrilled with the essay that the moment I put it down I wanted > more, so I wrote to Baker with some questions about what he’d said. Our > exchange was as follows: > > WNV: Why did you decide to write Human Smoke the way you did, and why now > write about World War II again as you do in Harper’s? > > NB: Human Smoke deals atomistically with the beginnings of the war because > I thought that was a good way of conveying the confusion and sadness of > what was going on. You have to pause and think moment by moment in order to > feel the gradual disintegration of civil restraint. The book stopped at the > end of 1941. The Harper’s piece mostly concentrates on events from 1942 > on, and it’s an effort to take up one big question: Were the pacifists > right in calling for an immediate negotiated peace? > > WNV: Why do you say at the outset of the essay that you don’t expect most > people to be persuaded? Is pacifism really such a lost cause? > > NB: No, pacifism isn’t a lost cause—in fact, most people, even generals > and headbanging bar brawlers, act peaceably most of the time, or we’d > get nothing done. “I’m not going to kill you” is basic to all > cooperation. But during wars, pacifists are often in the minority and their > arguments (so I’ve found!) make people really mad. Over time, these > same people may and often do change their thinking, but it isn’t going to > happen all at once. An inductive “nonviolent” approach to argumentation > sometimes helps. > > WNV: What do you think American pacifists can do now, or should have done, > to stop wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Libya? > > NB: American pacifists made heroic efforts to end those wars, using every > channel available. They deserve our thanks. Afterward, when more people > acknowledge that a military attack was a mistake, it helps to go back and > see who really understood what was going on. I find it incredibly moving to > see how right they were. Being able to stop a war isn’t the only reason for > protesting a war. You may fail, but you still want to get it on record that > there was an obvious better way as it was happening. The objection to any > war has to be steady and constant, and one way of objecting is to > re-examine historical touchstones. I wrote Human Smoke and “Why I’m > a Pacifist” to recall, as others have, that the war resisters of World > War II offered paths out of the horror at the time. Their steadiness > and belief in reconciliation can help us now. We need new heroes. I’d > rather think about Jessie Hughan, Abe Kaufman, Dorothy Day, Rabbi Cronbach, > or Vera Brittain than Winston Churchill. > > WNV: What business does a novelist have to write on matters of war and > peace anyway? > > NB: Tell that to Tolstoy. > > —. > > On Dec 16, 2017, at 6:32 PM, John W. wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: > > Would this strike you as a reasonable defense of WWII in Europe? > > “…German war-making antedates Hitler, and Roosevelt, and indeed the birth > of modern Germany. War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic > of human nature. German imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much. > It's a continuum. And imperialism in general characterizes every > militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states. Even > earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.” > > My question is not rhetorical. See Nicholson Baker, "Human Smoke: The > Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization” (2008). > > —CGE > > > There's rarely a defense for war, and never for imperialism. But German > imperialism and the notion that Germans were somehow a superior "race" > certainly predated Hitler. He didn't invent it; he merely carried it a > step further. > > What has been much more surprising is how Germany has reinvented itself in > such a progressive way since World War II. But don't hold your breath. > Neo-Nazism lurks just barely beneath the surface in Germany, just as it > does in America. The pendulum will swing again, and man's brute nature > will reassert itself. > > > > > > On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:08 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss net > wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: > > How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that > deploring Trump’s character is not the way. > > The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of war > and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat > administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as > a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies. > > He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and > that was enough to terrify the neocons. > > Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points that > out clearly. > > Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what > remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war > ‘center’ … the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into > supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…" > > That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US > war-making is. —CGE > > > > Except that U.S. war-making antedates tRump, and Coolidge, and indeed the > birth of the Republic. :-/ War-making is a permanent and immutable > characteristic of human nature. U.S. imperialism is a bit more recent, but > not much. It's a continuum. And imperialism in general characterizes > every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states. Even > earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc. > > > > > > > On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss net > wrote: > > > > Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the > point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies > rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more > generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the > rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must > go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong, > address to a Sanctuary audience. . > > > > —mkb > > > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook > wrote: > >> > >> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise > >> > >> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their > narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama > yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been > ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t > care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how > this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever > moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like > to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics > that this is a part of. > >> > >> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I > don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, > nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many > legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By > anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult > which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and > at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a > deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left > into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”. > >> > >> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general > “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game > both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. > Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the > most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones > campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still > viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This > extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator > who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help > move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in > self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore. > >> > >> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a > much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that > Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and > (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the > political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and > agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an > imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for > their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn. > >> > >> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists > telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to > impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t > and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, > charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they > “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third > party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand > a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When > it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the > Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they > “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward > economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But > Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country > further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as > long as it continues to work. > >> > >> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way > it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When > this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just > like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last > one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd > the left into the center, just like they’re doing now. > >> > >> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that > progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party > beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment > and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this > simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore > up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which > Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which > only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media > influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force. > >> > >> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US > politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do > isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to > walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at > the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and > you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves > all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into > conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your > minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead. > >> > >> --– Caitlin Johnstone > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *My name is a complete sentence* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com Sun Dec 17 09:57:05 2017 From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 03:57:05 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: Food Stamps Disrupted for holidays--rapid response needed References: <688EB2C3-4198-4F4F-827C-596885350D84@pdamerica.org> Message-ID: Folks, This is a long email, but the gist is that the Rauner Administration is allowing thousands of Illinoisans to lose access to SNAP (food stamps) because of technical problems and bureaucratic negligence. Call the governor's office Monday and demand action to restore SNAP benefits. Thanks Deb Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: > From: deb at pdamerica.org > Date: December 17, 2017 at 3:51:17 AM CST > To: Debra Schrishuhn > Subject: Fwd: Food Stamps Disrupted for holidays > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Fran Tobin, Alliance for Community Services >> Date: December 16, 2017 at 1:15:00 PM CST >> To: Debra >> Subject: Food Stamps Disrupted for holidays >> Reply-To: Fran Tobin, Alliance for Community Services >> >> >> Did you see the news coverage of the threat we exposed? >> Can you chip in to help this effort? >> View this email in your browser >> Tens of Thousands Losing Food Stamps >> (yes, wrongfully ... yes, again!) >> The Rauner administration's new computer system is causing tens of thousands of people across Illinois to wrongfully lose food stamp benefits (aka SNAP or Link) -- yep, just in time for the holidays. >> >> Front-line DHS workers, union members that are part of the Alliance for Community Services, were the first to sound the alarm, as the new Integrated Eligibility System (IES): >> * constantly crashed, >> * automatically canceled benefits on eligible persons >> * caused long delays in processing and even more packed and angry waiting rooms, >> * made it difficult for caseworkers to fix the problems >> >> Alliance activists worked with NBC-5 to expose the story a couple weeks ago. DHS management knew the nearly $200 million system, designed by private contractor Deloitte, had problems, but launched it anyway. >> >> "We took these jobs to help people, but this puts one hand tied behind our back" said AFSCME 2858 activist Brian Poncin. Shortly after the story broke, the statewide AFSCME Council fired off a strong letter to DHS management about the problem. >> >> Yesterday, the Chicago Tribune added to the story, as things are getting worse. Even DHS admits that tens of thousands of eligible persons are not getting the food help they need. >> >> On Monday, during business hours, call 847-957-7838 to tell the governor to fix the IES Mess. (note: they will not answer, or check messages left, outside business hours) >> >> There are many ways the administration is undermining the mission of public service - harming poor families, seniors, people with disabilities. The administration is >> * making it harder to access services, by closing/moving service offices >> * creating bureaucratic hoops that lead to loss of food stamps >> * limiting food stamps for most poor people in Dupage County >> * limiting overtime for home services caregivers >> * refusing to negotiate a fair budget or fair terms for public employees >> * and more. >> >> People that depend on these services, in alliance with the front-line public employees and caregivers, can expose the truth, can stand up and fight for dignity and decency for all. >> >> Click here to help support this grassroots alliance-building >> >> In Unity, >> >> Francis X. Tobin, >> On behalf of the consumer, labor, community partners of the Alliance. >> >> PS: Alliance leaders are drafting priorities for 2018. Feel free to email your suggestions to >> Platform at AllianceForCommunityServices.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Copyright © 2017 Alliance for Community Services, All rights reserved. >> We're keeping community services supporters and petition signers informed on what's happening. >> >> Our mailing address is: >> Alliance for Community Services >> 37 S. Ashland >> Chicago, IL 60607 >> >> Add us to your address book >> >> >> Want to change how you receive these emails? >> You can update your preferences or unsubscribe from this list. >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sun Dec 17 15:44:25 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 15:44:25 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The fight for net neutrality isn't over Message-ID: The Fight for Net Neutrality Isn't Over The FCC repeal of net neutrality is dangerous, but with court challenges and more grassroots activism on the way, it can still be stopped, says Craig Aaron of Free Press ________________________________ Full Episode US Politics [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/tparsi1215iran-thumb.jpg] US Strikes Out with New War-Mongering on Iran [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/amittal1214erikprince-thumb.jpg] Prince of Darkness: Ex-Blackwater CEO Wants to Launch a Private Spy Network [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/caaron1215neutrality-thumb.jpg] The Fight for Net Neutrality Isn't Over [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/print1214j20-thumb.jpg] Judge in J20 Case Drops Inciting Riot Charge But Condemns Journalism as Conspiracy [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/dbaker1213taxes-thumb.jpg] Virtually No Economist Believes the GOP Tax Bill Will Generate Much Growth [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/mwheeler1213rosenstein-thumb.jpg] Partisan Clash over Trump-Russia Probe Gets Messier [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/nturner1213live-thumb.jpg] Nina Turner on Alabama Vote & Democratic Party Unity Reform Comission [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/bstewart1212pennsylvania-thumb.jpg] Can Pennsylvania Draw the Line on Partisan Gerrymandering? [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/calbright1212alabama-thumb.jpg] Voter Suppression and Outright Fraud Continue to Plague Alabama [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/ghorne1212live-thumb.jpg] Racism and Trumpism in Alabama [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/mblumenthal1211russiagate-thumb.jpg] Media or Cult? CNN Buries a Massive Russiagate Gaffe [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/print1211Alabama-thumb.jpg] Pressure Mounts On Doug Jones To Pull Off Upset in Alabama Senate Race [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/mgrant1208chicagowater-thumb.jpg] A Chicago Alderman Introduced A Water Affordability Ordinance. Does Baltimore Need One Too? [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/abrown1205mayor-thumb.jpg] To Fight Crime We Must Address Root Causes, Says Mayor of Compton, CA [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/amate1207sanders-thumb.jpg] Bernie Sanders and Ben Jealous Hold Healthcare Rally in Baltimore [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/nsolomon1208dnc-thumb.jpg] DNC's Unity Commission Further Dividing the Party [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/skim1206takeaway-thumb.jpg] Reporter's Harassment Sparks a #MeToo Moment at WNYC [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/monuments1205-thumb.jpg] Trump Faces a Fight over Downsizing National Monuments [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/clumumba1205live-thumb.jpg] Mayor Chokwe Lumumba Wants to Make Jackson the Most Radical City on the Planet [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/lwilkerson0925generals-thumb.jpg] Preemptive Strike on North Korea: Is Trump Wagging the Dog? [http://therealnews.com/permalinkedgraphics/video_page_banner.png] ________________________________ biography Craig Aaron is the president and CEO of Free Press and the Free Press Action Fund in April 2011. He joined Free Press in 2004 and speaks across the country on media, Internet and journalism issues. Craig is a frequent guest on talk radio and is quoted often in the national press. His commentaries also appear regularly in the Guardian and the Huffington Post. Before joining Free Press, he was an investigative reporter for Public Citizen's Congress Watch and the managing editor of In These Times magazine. He is the editor of two books, Appeal to Reason: 25 Years of In These Times and Changing Media: Public Interest Policies for the Digital Age. He is a graduate of Northwestern University's Medill School of Journalism. ________________________________ transcript [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/caaron1215neutrality-240.jpg]AARON MATÉ: It's The Real News. I'm Aaron Maté. Is the internet as we know it dead? That's the question after a major decision by the Federal Communications Commission. By a margin of three to two, the FCC voted to appeal rules that guaranteed equal access to all web content. Under net neutrality, service providers on the internet were barred from favoring a certain content with higher speeds and more visible access. With net neutrality gone, that means that what you see and how you see it on the web could very much change. Don't write off net neutrality just yet. Those who waged the grassroots campaign to win it in the first place, are now leading an effort to save it. Craig Aaron is president of the group Free Press, one of those groups that fought for net neutrality, and is now within the charge to protect it. Craig, welcome. What is the significance of yesterday's vote? CRAIG AARON: Thanks for having me. Yesterday's vote at the Federal Communication's Commission is significant, because it represents the first time the FCC has completely abdicated any responsibility to serve the public. The rules the FCC passed yesterday tear down strong net neutrality rules, clear protections that were instituted in 2015 during the Obama administration, and they really defang the agency all together leaving them unable to step in if and when a powerful phone or cable company decides to start interfering with the internet. It opens the door to blocking, slowing down content, creating pay-to-play fast lanes that only the biggest media companies can afford. It's a very dangerous decision, but I do not believe it will be the last word in this fight. AARON MATÉ: Before we get to the fight, what do you see as the most immediate implications should the repeal of net neutrality go into effect, and what it could mean for average consumers who consume web content? CRAIG AARON: I think one of the real dangers here is how hard it is going to be for the average consumer to know what's going on. What getting rid of these rules does is it allows phone and cable companies to start manipulating your internet experience in all kinds of ways, some of which you won't actually be able to see, or you won't know is happening. Maybe you're trying to watch this show and you're getting the spinning wheel of death, and you can't figure it out. Is it your internet connection? Do you need to pay for faster speeds? Is something else going on? You start to notice that, all of the sudden, Fox News is coming through just fine. These are the kinds of things that we're concerned about, as well as a whole set of deals these companies want to strike, where they offer preferential treatment to their own content, and most of these are big, multifaceted media companies, as well as those who might pay. Suddenly, we start to change the fundamental nature of the internet. It stops looking like that free and open space where you're in control, and starts looking a lot more like cable television, where your company pick and choose the channels for you, starts pricing out different tiers, and makes it a lot harder for independent voices to be heard, and a lot harder for new and innovative companies to compete with the big guys. AARON MATÉ: Do you believe the internet companies when they say ... They've offered some assurances that they're not going to be offering tiered packages, not going to be charging people more to access things like Google and YouTube. Do you trust their assurances? CRAIG AARON: No. I don't trust the cable companies. These are companies, these are the most hated companies in the country for a reason. You can't trust them to show up at your house when they say they will at 10:00 a.m., and I don't trust their assurances that they're not going to mess with the internet. The reason why is because when they're talking to their own investors, when they're talking to each other at trade shows, when they're under oath in court, they make very clear that they do intend to discriminate. We're already seeing them starting to scrub their pledges and their terms of service to allow fast lanes and paid prioritization. The other reason I don't really believe them is, if they have no intention of violating the spirit of these rules, then why are they spending millions and millions of dollars to overturn them? It just doesn't make any sense. Clearly there are things they want to do that the public is not going to like. AARON MATÉ: Let me put to you the reason that I hear said most often, especially by the man responsible for all this, FCC chair Ajit Pai, a former lawyer for Verizon. He says that these regulations are making it hard to do business. They're trampling the free market, and undoing them will free up much needed capital for these companies to invest in better broadband, in better infrastructure to provide services to their customers. CRAIG AARON: Yeah. The evidence just doesn't support any of those claims. Since these rules were put into place, investment is up overall among cable and telecom companies. It's also up, in a big way, in the whole internet ecosystem. It's clear that these, and these are multibillion dollar companies that make investment decisions for a lot of reasons, but there's zero evidence that these rules and regulations have held them back in any way. Moreover, the problem is that the way they make money in a world without net neutrality is by profiting off of scarcity. If you're going to see someone a ticket to the fast lane, then you have to have a slow lane they're trying to avoid. All the incentives line up for these guys to start messing with content, offering special treatment for themselves, for select corporate partners, and slowing down everybody else. It really is a zero-sum game. In a fair system, all these companies would be doing is just building big open pipes and all of us can go out and create whatever we want and compete with everybody else. That's the internet we should have. That's not the internet that Comcast, Verizon and AT&T are interested in building, and Ajit Pai, unfortunately, has shown no concern for any of the evidence in the record, and he seems to be motivated ideologically to just do away with any regulations, and do whatever he can to serve the biggest companies out there no matter the cost. AARON MATÉ: Let's go to Ajit Pai. He was speaking yesterday before the vote at the FCC, and part of his argument was that the net neutrality rules that were imposed fix a system that was not broken. AJIT PAI: This decision was a mistake. For one thing, there was no problem to solve. The internet wasn't broken in 2015. We were not living in some digital dystopia. To the contrary, the internet is one thing, perhaps the only thing, in American society that we can all agree has been a stunning success. AARON MATÉ: That's Ajit Pai, the FCC chair, and he was saying, Craig, that these regulations, these net neutrality regulations messed with something that already was a stunning success. CRAIG AARON: Yeah. The evidence just doesn't support any of those claims. Net neutrality has been a part of the internet since its inception, and didn't become an issue until under the first Bush administration ... Excuse me, the second Bush administration, George W. Bush's administration, they began moving to undo and change the rules to benefit the cable industry. We've been having a big political fight since 2005 over what those rules should look like. The internet has been thriving in a world in which net neutrality has been largely protected, and where we had an FCC that was usually willing to step in when they saw a problem. They lost some of those efforts in court when they were challenged by the big companies, but net neutrality has been the rules of the road for the internet forever. This idea that the 2015 decision was some break from what came before is completely false. What the Obama administration ended up doing, and let's be clear, Obama and the FCC only did it after immense public pressure, was to just codify those rules and just build in all those expectations that people had, and make sure that the FCC actually had the authority to step in when there was a problem. That's what was in dispute. Not whether we should have net neutrality, but whether the FCC could do anything about it when these companies started acting badly. What Ajit Pai is saying is, we're not going to do anything about it anymore, and that's the change here. AARON MATÉ: Right. Interestingly, the open internet rules were inactive in 2015. Since then, they've been challenged in court. Several courts have upheld them. CRAIG AARON: That's right. AARON MATÉ: I'm wondering if that sets a precedence now for the legal challenge that will follow that FCC repeal yesterday? CRAIG AARON: Yeah. I think it does, and that's important history. Ever since the net neutrality was thrown in jeopardy by a Supreme Court decision in 2005, there have been a series of court fights every time the FCC has tried to go forward with a half measure, or pretend its authority exists in some other part of the law, the courts have rejected the FCCs rules. When they finally passed strong and clear rules, resting on clear authority, something called Title 2 of the Communications Act, the courts upheld that decision. They've actually done it twice so far. That's a case that could go to the Supreme Court still, but that's the first time the rules were ever upheld. Now you have Ajit Pai coming in, and the thing is, when it comes to administrative law, it's not enough to say that Donald Trump is president and we want to trash everything. You actually have to build a legal case. You actually have to present evidence that there was a reason to change these rules. You actually have to show that the public interest is being served somehow by this decision. I don't think Ajit Pai can do that. We're certainly preparing our lawsuit right now. We'll be filing it in the next couple of weeks, to challenge these rules in court. I'm sure we won't be alone. I expect this will go to federal court sometime next year, a challenge, and I think it's a challenge we can win. AARON MATÉ: One more clip of Ajit Pai making that case for why it is in the public interest to change the rules. AJIT PAI: What is responsible for the phenomenal development of the internet? It certainly wasn't heavy-handed government regulation. Quite to the contrary. At the dawn of the commercial internet, president Clinton and a Republican Congress agreed that it would be the policy of the United States to, and I quote, "preserve the vibrant and competitive free market that presently exists for the internet unfettered by federal and state regulation." This bipartisan policy worked. AARON MATÉ: That's Ajit Pai, the chair of the FCC, speaking for the vote to repeal net neutrality. Craig, what I found interesting here was he says that was has been responsible for the boom of the internet has not been government regulation, and he suggested that it was all about encouraging the free market. What he left out is that the internet was created with public funding, which to me, then, would lend credence to the view that the internet should be regulated and distributed in the service and the interest of the public. CRAIG AARON: Yeah. And that's just the start of the things he left out. He likes to talk about these Clinton era of bipartisanship, but what happened during that era was they passed a bill in 1996 that updated the Communications Act, and of course, that contains Title 2of the Communications Act, the thing he's trying to strip. So that very legislation is what set out the legal structure that we're trying to protect. It's very clear if you look at that legislative history, if you look at how the internet actually developed, it was because we had a neutral network, that knew competitors could emerge. Whether it's Google in a garage, or Facebook in a dorm room, they could only succeed initially because they could get on that internet that was an even playing field. That's why the companies that care most about something like net neutrality aren't the big guys who can afford to buy themselves out now. It's the upstarts, it's the little guys, it's the independent content producers, it's the independent musicians, because they know that that's their only chance. Otherwise, you have to go and beg AT&T, or Comcast or Verizon for permission for a spot on their network, for a spot in their fast lane, for their permission to innovate. That's not the internet we want. That's not what created the internet we have, and Ajit Pai can pretend otherwise, but it simply flies in the face of all available evidence, and anything the public wants. There has never been an issue gotten more attention or more public opposition than what Ajit Pai is trying to do right now at the FCC. He is choosing to ignore it, but there are a lot of other politicians out there, politicians who need to run for office, who may take a different view. AARON MATÉ: Speaking of public opposition, Craig, as we wrap, talk about the protest that we've seen around this FCC repeal vote and what you expect to see going forward. CRAIG AARON: It's been absolutely incredible. The last three weeks has been nothing like we've seen before. We have seen a huge groundswell of opposition. There were 22 million comments filed at the FCC. That's more than any other issue, ever. There have been a million calls to congress, just in the last few weeks. Some offices are telling us that's more calls than they're getting on taxes. They're running 6,000 to 1 against Ajit Pai. We saw protests erupting everywhere. There were 700 protests in all 50 states last week. There were hundreds of people outside of the FCC on multiple days, this week, including yesterday, a huge protest of racial justice activists around the issue of net neutrality. So the public is speaking out. Politicians are starting to get that message and see that this is becoming a truly potent issue. That's why I'm actually so confident that Ajit Pai isn't going to prevail here. There's going to be a fight in court. There's going to be a fight in Congress too. We're pushing congress right now to throw out these rules. They have the power to do so, and we'll be going in 2018 to get them to just toss out what this FCC has done. There are already, I think, 20 senators now who've agreed to support that legislation. And I expect to see a lot more in the days ahead. AARON MATÉ: I think 2018 is the key date because right now, with the Republicans controlling Congress, that's unlikely, but that could change in 2018. CRAIG AARON: I think that's right, we're seeing Republicans move. So there's a reason for optimism. AARON MATÉ: Craig Aaron, president of Free Press. Thank you. CRAIG AARON: Thanks a lot. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sun Dec 17 16:28:23 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 16:28:23 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: Francis Boyle sent you a video: "Conversation With Professor of International Law, Dr. Francis Boyle" References: <94eb2c0810d09aa33f05608ba5a4@google.com> Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 10:25 AM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: FW: Francis Boyle sent you a video: "Conversation With Professor of International Law, Dr. Francis Boyle" Published on Dec 17, 2017 Francis Boyle is a professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law, with—among many degrees—a PhD in Political Science from Harvard University. See his full biography here: https://law.illinois.edu/faculty-rese... We recently had the chance to speak on a number of important, current issues, including Syria, Yemen, the DPRK, or North Korea, and the failure of supposedly alternative media. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Francis Boyle via YouTube [mailto:noreply at youtube.com] Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 10:23 AM To: Boyle, Francis A > Subject: Francis Boyle sent you a video: "Conversation With Professor of International Law, Dr. Francis Boyle" [http://s.ytimg.com/yt/img/email/digest/email_header.png] [https://yt3.ggpht.com/-w4phvYGWivc/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAAAA/_Vq2X19VNEk/s50-c-k-no-mo-rj-c0xffffff/photo.jpg] Francis Boyle has shared a video with you on YouTube [https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0UEB38KWbU4/mqdefault.jpg] Conversation With Professor of International Law, Dr. Francis Boyle by Eva K Bartlett Francis Boyle is a professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law, with—among many degrees—a PhD in Political Science from Harvard University. See his full biography here: ... Help center • Report spam ©2017 YouTube, LLC 901 Cherry Ave, San Bruno, CA 94066, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sun Dec 17 16:28:23 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 16:28:23 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: Francis Boyle sent you a video: "Conversation With Professor of International Law, Dr. Francis Boyle" References: <94eb2c0810d09aa33f05608ba5a4@google.com> Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 10:25 AM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: FW: Francis Boyle sent you a video: "Conversation With Professor of International Law, Dr. Francis Boyle" Published on Dec 17, 2017 Francis Boyle is a professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law, with—among many degrees—a PhD in Political Science from Harvard University. See his full biography here: https://law.illinois.edu/faculty-rese... We recently had the chance to speak on a number of important, current issues, including Syria, Yemen, the DPRK, or North Korea, and the failure of supposedly alternative media. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Francis Boyle via YouTube [mailto:noreply at youtube.com] Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 10:23 AM To: Boyle, Francis A > Subject: Francis Boyle sent you a video: "Conversation With Professor of International Law, Dr. Francis Boyle" [http://s.ytimg.com/yt/img/email/digest/email_header.png] [https://yt3.ggpht.com/-w4phvYGWivc/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAAAA/_Vq2X19VNEk/s50-c-k-no-mo-rj-c0xffffff/photo.jpg] Francis Boyle has shared a video with you on YouTube [https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0UEB38KWbU4/mqdefault.jpg] Conversation With Professor of International Law, Dr. Francis Boyle by Eva K Bartlett Francis Boyle is a professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law, with—among many degrees—a PhD in Political Science from Harvard University. See his full biography here: ... Help center • Report spam ©2017 YouTube, LLC 901 Cherry Ave, San Bruno, CA 94066, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sun Dec 17 17:00:56 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:00:56 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] A narrow and dangerously misleading view of black America Message-ID: > Coates praises Obama as a “deeply moral human being” while remaining silent on the 563 drone strikes, the assassination of US citizens with no trial, the 26,171 bombs dropped on five Muslim-majority countries in 2016 and the 550 Palestinian children killed with US supported planes in 51 days, etc. He calls Obama “one of the greatest presidents in American history,” who for “eight years ... walked on ice and never fell.” It is clear that his narrow racial tribalism and myopic political neoliberalism has no place for keeping track of Wall Street greed, US imperial crimes or black elite indifference to poverty. ### -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Sun Dec 17 17:06:46 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:06:46 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] A narrow and dangerously misleading view of black America In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <017901d37759$6c127520$44375f60$@comcast.net> Indeed ! Coates is a neo-liberal asshole who serves his corporate masters well and is well compensated for it financially. David J. From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 11:01 AM To: peace-discuss Cc: peace Subject: [Peace-discuss] A narrow and dangerously misleading view of black America Coates praises Obama as a “deeply moral human being” while remaining silent on the 563 drone strikes, the assassination of US citizens with no trial, the 26,171 bombs dropped on five Muslim-majority countries in 2016 and the 550 Palestinian children killed with US supported planes in 51 days, etc. He calls Obama “one of the greatest presidents in American history,” who for “eight years ... walked on ice and never fell.” It is clear that his narrow racial tribalism and myopic political neoliberalism has no place for keeping track of Wall Street greed, US imperial crimes or black elite indifference to poverty. ### -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brussel at illinois.edu Sun Dec 17 21:21:10 2017 From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 21:21:10 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu> <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com> <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu> <2ECC75BA-4204-45D1-8953-06116E9D50FD@gmail.com> <7347E5C3-8497-46C2-A6E9-559A1525E43E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Another activist pacifist is the prolific David Swanson. Writings on http://davidswanson.org/ —mkb On Dec 16, 2017, at 7:53 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: > Why Nicholson Baker is a pacifist Anyone who makes even a modest habit of speaking out against war in public soon runs up against the inevitable, supposedly unanswerable question: What about World War II? (We have a whole category devoted to it.) It’s meant to be the ultimate stumper. This was the “good war,” wasn’t it, the war waged by the “greatest generation” against the evil incarnate of Hitler and imperial Japan? There was simply no other choice before the forces of goodness and truth but to leap into the single most deadly undertaking in all of human history. Right? That won’t work if you’re talking to Nicholson Baker. In an extraordinary cover story in this month’s issue of Harper’s Magazine, “Why I’m a Pacifist: The Dangerous Myth of the Good War,” Baker explains how learning about World War II was actually a big part of what made him a pacifist in the first place. “In fact,” he writes, the more I learn about the war, the more I understand that the pacifists were the only ones, during a time of catastrophic violence, who repeatedly put forward proposals that had any chance of saving a threatened people. They weren’t naïve, they weren’t unrealistic—they were psychologically acute realists. His thinking began drifting this way during the Gulf War, and continued to evolve through the sequence of American military operations since. In the Balkans, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and in talk about bombing Iran, he noticed that World War II kept coming up. It kept being used to justify one war after another. Every new enemy only had to be painted as another Hitler to ensure public support. By 2008, Baker published Human Smoke, a book that collects documents, newspaper reports, and notable utterances during the lead-up to World War II, revealing how determined the Allied leaders were to fight at any cost. But, because of its form, we don’t get much of his own voice in that book. “Why I’m a Pacifist” is a chance to hear more directly from Baker himself about how he came to the conclusions that he did about the war. I was so thrilled with the essay that the moment I put it down I wanted more, so I wrote to Baker with some questions about what he’d said. Our exchange was as follows: WNV: Why did you decide to write Human Smoke the way you did, and why now write about World War II again as you do in Harper’s? NB: Human Smoke deals atomistically with the beginnings of the war because I thought that was a good way of conveying the confusion and sadness of what was going on. You have to pause and think moment by moment in order to feel the gradual disintegration of civil restraint. The book stopped at the end of 1941. The Harper’s piece mostly concentrates on events from 1942 on, and it’s an effort to take up one big question: Were the pacifists right in calling for an immediate negotiated peace? WNV: Why do you say at the outset of the essay that you don’t expect most people to be persuaded? Is pacifism really such a lost cause? NB: No, pacifism isn’t a lost cause—in fact, most people, even generals and headbanging bar brawlers, act peaceably most of the time, or we’d get nothing done. “I’m not going to kill you” is basic to all cooperation. But during wars, pacifists are often in the minority and their arguments (so I’ve found!) make people really mad. Over time, these same people may and often do change their thinking, but it isn’t going to happen all at once. An inductive “nonviolent” approach to argumentation sometimes helps. WNV: What do you think American pacifists can do now, or should have done, to stop wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Libya? NB: American pacifists made heroic efforts to end those wars, using every channel available. They deserve our thanks. Afterward, when more people acknowledge that a military attack was a mistake, it helps to go back and see who really understood what was going on. I find it incredibly moving to see how right they were. Being able to stop a war isn’t the only reason for protesting a war. You may fail, but you still want to get it on record that there was an obvious better way as it was happening. The objection to any war has to be steady and constant, and one way of objecting is to re-examine historical touchstones. I wrote Human Smoke and “Why I’m a Pacifist” to recall, as others have, that the war resisters of World War II offered paths out of the horror at the time. Their steadiness and belief in reconciliation can help us now. We need new heroes. I’d rather think about Jessie Hughan, Abe Kaufman, Dorothy Day, Rabbi Cronbach, or Vera Brittain than Winston Churchill. WNV: What business does a novelist have to write on matters of war and peace anyway? NB: Tell that to Tolstoy. —. On Dec 16, 2017, at 6:32 PM, John W. > wrote: On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: Would this strike you as a reasonable defense of WWII in Europe? “…German war-making antedates Hitler, and Roosevelt, and indeed the birth of modern Germany. War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature. German imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much. It's a continuum. And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states. Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.” My question is not rhetorical. See Nicholson Baker, "Human Smoke: The Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization” (2008). —CGE There's rarely a defense for war, and never for imperialism. But German imperialism and the notion that Germans were somehow a superior "race" certainly predated Hitler. He didn't invent it; he merely carried it a step further. What has been much more surprising is how Germany has reinvented itself in such a progressive way since World War II. But don't hold your breath. Neo-Nazism lurks just barely beneath the surface in Germany, just as it does in America. The pendulum will swing again, and man's brute nature will reassert itself. On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:08 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss > wrote: On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that deploring Trump’s character is not the way. The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of war and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies. He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and that was enough to terrify the neocons. Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points that out clearly. Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war ‘center’ … the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…" That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US war-making is. —CGE Except that U.S. war-making antedates tRump, and Coolidge, and indeed the birth of the Republic. :-/ War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature. U.S. imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much. It's a continuum. And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states. Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc. > On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong, address to a Sanctuary audience. . > > —mkb > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook > wrote: >> >> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise >> >> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of. >> >> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”. >> >> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore. >> >> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn. >> >> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work. >> >> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now. >> >> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force. >> >> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead. >> >> --– Caitlin Johnstone > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbw292002 at gmail.com Sun Dec 17 22:19:29 2017 From: jbw292002 at gmail.com (John W.) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 16:19:29 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu> <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com> <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu> <2ECC75BA-4204-45D1-8953-06116E9D50FD@gmail.com> <7347E5C3-8497-46C2-A6E9-559A1525E43E@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think pacifists are wonderful, and would to God that everyone on earth shared the view. But there was no "negotiating" or "reconciling" with Hitler or with imperial Japan. You may recall that Chamberlain tried it. And while individuals may choose, courageously, to be pacifists, it's naive to imagine that it will ever become public policy in a highly militarized nation like the U.S. On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 7:53 PM, C G Estabrook wrote: > Why Nicholson Baker is a pacifist > > Anyone who makes even a modest habit of speaking out against war in > public soon runs up against the inevitable, supposedly unanswerable > question: What about World War II? (We have a whole category devoted to > it.) It’s meant to be the ultimate stumper. This was the “good war,” > wasn’t it, the war waged by the “greatest generation” against the > evil incarnate of Hitler and imperial Japan? There was simply no other > choice before the forces of goodness and truth but to leap into the > single most deadly undertaking in all of human history. Right? > > That won’t work if you’re talking to Nicholson Baker. In an extraordinary > cover story in this month’s issue of Harper’s Magazine, “Why I’m a > Pacifist: The Dangerous Myth of the Good War,” Baker explains how learning > about World War II was actually a big part of what made him a pacifist in > the first place. “In fact,” he writes, > > the more I learn about the war, the more I understand that the pacifists > were the only ones, during a time of catastrophic violence, who repeatedly > put forward proposals that had any chance of saving a threatened people. > They weren’t naïve, they weren’t unrealistic—they were psychologically > acute realists. > > His thinking began drifting this way during the Gulf War, and continued to > evolve through the sequence of American military operations since. In the > Balkans, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and in talk about bombing Iran, he > noticed that World War II kept coming up. It kept being used to justify one > war after another. Every new enemy only had to be painted as another Hitler > to ensure public support. > > By 2008, Baker published Human Smoke, a book that collects documents, > newspaper reports, and notable utterances during the lead-up to World War > II, revealing how determined the Allied leaders were to fight at any cost. > But, because of its form, we don’t get much of his own voice in that book. > “Why I’m a Pacifist” is a chance to hear more directly from Baker himself > about how he came to the conclusions that he did about the war. > > I was so thrilled with the essay that the moment I put it down I wanted > more, so I wrote to Baker with some questions about what he’d said. Our > exchange was as follows: > > WNV: Why did you decide to write Human Smoke the way you did, and why now > write about World War II again as you do in Harper’s? > > NB: Human Smoke deals atomistically with the beginnings of the war because > I thought that was a good way of conveying the confusion and sadness of > what was going on. You have to pause and think moment by moment in order to > feel the gradual disintegration of civil restraint. The book stopped at the > end of 1941. The Harper’s piece mostly concentrates on events from 1942 > on, and it’s an effort to take up one big question: Were the pacifists > right in calling for an immediate negotiated peace? > > WNV: Why do you say at the outset of the essay that you don’t expect most > people to be persuaded? Is pacifism really such a lost cause? > > NB: No, pacifism isn’t a lost cause—in fact, most people, even generals > and headbanging bar brawlers, act peaceably most of the time, or we’d > get nothing done. “I’m not going to kill you” is basic to all > cooperation. But during wars, pacifists are often in the minority and their > arguments (so I’ve found!) make people really mad. Over time, these > same people may and often do change their thinking, but it isn’t going to > happen all at once. An inductive “nonviolent” approach to argumentation > sometimes helps. > > WNV: What do you think American pacifists can do now, or should have done, > to stop wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Libya? > > NB: American pacifists made heroic efforts to end those wars, using every > channel available. They deserve our thanks. Afterward, when more people > acknowledge that a military attack was a mistake, it helps to go back and > see who really understood what was going on. I find it incredibly moving to > see how right they were. Being able to stop a war isn’t the only reason for > protesting a war. You may fail, but you still want to get it on record that > there was an obvious better way as it was happening. The objection to any > war has to be steady and constant, and one way of objecting is to > re-examine historical touchstones. I wrote Human Smoke and “Why I’m > a Pacifist” to recall, as others have, that the war resisters of World > War II offered paths out of the horror at the time. Their steadiness > and belief in reconciliation can help us now. We need new heroes. I’d > rather think about Jessie Hughan, Abe Kaufman, Dorothy Day, Rabbi Cronbach, > or Vera Brittain than Winston Churchill. > > WNV: What business does a novelist have to write on matters of war and > peace anyway? > > NB: Tell that to Tolstoy. > > —. > > > On Dec 16, 2017, at 6:32 PM, John W. wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: > > Would this strike you as a reasonable defense of WWII in Europe? >> >> “…German war-making antedates Hitler, and Roosevelt, and indeed the birth >> of modern Germany. War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic >> of human nature. German imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much. >> It's a continuum. And imperialism in general characterizes every >> militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states. Even >> earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.” >> >> My question is not rhetorical. See Nicholson Baker, "Human Smoke: The >> Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization” (2008). >> >> —CGE >> > > There's rarely a defense for war, and never for imperialism. But German > imperialism and the notion that Germans were somehow a superior "race" > certainly predated Hitler. He didn't invent it; he merely carried it a > step further. > > What has been much more surprising is how Germany has reinvented itself in > such a progressive way since World War II. But don't hold your breath. > Neo-Nazism lurks just barely beneath the surface in Germany, just as it > does in America. The pendulum will swing again, and man's brute nature > will reassert itself. > > > > > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:08 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss < >> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM, C G Estabrook >> wrote: >> >> How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that >>> deploring Trump’s character is not the way. >>> >>> The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of >>> war and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat >>> administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as >>> a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies. >>> >>> He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and >>> that was enough to terrify the neocons. >>> >>> Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points >>> that out clearly. >>> >>> Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what >>> remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war >>> ‘center’ … the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into >>> supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…" >>> >>> That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US >>> war-making is. —CGE >>> >> >> >> Except that U.S. war-making antedates tRump, and Coolidge, and indeed the >> birth of the Republic. :-/ War-making is a permanent and immutable >> characteristic of human nature. U.S. imperialism is a bit more recent, but >> not much. It's a continuum. And imperialism in general characterizes >> every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states. Even >> earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc. >> >> >> >> >> >>> > On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss < >>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: >>> > >>> > Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to >>> the point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the >>> policies rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and >>> more generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon >>> the rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight >>> must go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if >>> overlong, address to a Sanctuary audience. . >>> > >>> > —mkb >>> > >>> >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook >>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise >>> >> >>> >> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their >>> narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama >>> yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been >>> ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t >>> care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how >>> this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever >>> moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like >>> to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics >>> that this is a part of. >>> >> >>> >> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I >>> don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, >>> nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many >>> legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By >>> anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult >>> which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and >>> at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a >>> deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left >>> into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”. >>> >> >>> >> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general >>> “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game >>> both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. >>> Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the >>> most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones >>> campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still >>> viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This >>> extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator >>> who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help >>> move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in >>> self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore. >>> >> >>> >> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on >>> a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that >>> Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and >>> (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the >>> political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and >>> agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an >>> imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for >>> their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn. >>> >> >>> >> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists >>> telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to >>> impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t >>> and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, >>> charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they >>> “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third >>> party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand >>> a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When >>> it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the >>> Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they >>> “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward >>> economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But >>> Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country >>> further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as >>> long as it continues to work. >>> >> >>> >> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the >>> way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. >>> When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one >>> just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the >>> last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to >>> herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now. >>> >> >>> >> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that >>> progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party >>> beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment >>> and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this >>> simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore >>> up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which >>> Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which >>> only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media >>> influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force. >>> >> >>> >> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US >>> politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do >>> isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to >>> walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at >>> the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and >>> you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves >>> all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into >>> conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your >>> minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead. >>> >> >>> >> --– Caitlin Johnstone >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuartnlevy at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 00:58:09 2017 From: stuartnlevy at gmail.com (Stuart Levy) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 18:58:09 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] last minute anti-tax-scam gathering in Davis' office -- noon Monday? Message-ID: I want to propose an action which may well bear no fruit, but so what. I'm ticked off at the reverse Robin Hood tax scam which our US Rep Davis is surely going to vote for, probably on Tuesday. Proposal: whoever can, gather at Davis' office - say at *noon on Monday, tomorrow the 18th, *unless someone has a better suggestion.* * Previous gatherings have mostly been rallies outside on the parking lot.   Instead I propose to pack the office, as people did for the health care bill.   About ten people can squeeze in, and if more come they can be in the hallway.   I'm not proposing a sit-in, not risking arrest, just an uncomfortably large number of people coming to say we want Davis to vote Hell No and not sell out our future for the sake of wealthy people and corporate profits, and stick around for maybe a half hour or an hour or until they throw us out. Problem: I may well be unable to be there myself (expecting a yet-to-be-scheduled work meeting, which I'll be unable to skip, may get scheduled for that hour).   There's lots of source material, but here's a middle-of-the-road article from Bloomberg of all places saying, basically, that corporate America doesn't need the money, and naming things that we do need -- "The largest economic challenges we face include a skills crisis that our public schools are not addressing, crumbling infrastructure that imperils our global competitiveness, wage stagnation coupled with growing wealth inequality, and rising deficits that will worsen as more baby boomers retire.  The tax bill does nothing to address these challenges. In fact, it makes each of them worse."    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-15/this-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder Who would be in? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmedina67 at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 02:24:08 2017 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (Karen Medina) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 20:24:08 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] last minute anti-tax-scam gathering in Davis' office -- noon Monday? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am in. What: an "I'm ticked off at the reverse Robin Hood tax scam which our US Rep Davis is surely going to vote for" event When: 12noon on Monday, tomorrow the 18th of December, 2017 Where: Rodney Davis' Champaign office / 2004 Fox Dr, Champaign, IL 61820 If someone saved the signs from Saturday's event, bring them along. If someone wants to bring an appropriate carol to sing, then bring it. Personally, I am thinking of "You're a mean one, Mr. Davis" -karen medina On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 6:58 PM, Stuart Levy via Peace wrote: > I want to propose an action which may well bear no fruit, but so what. > > I'm ticked off at the reverse Robin Hood tax scam which our US Rep Davis is > surely going to vote for, probably on Tuesday. > > Proposal: whoever can, gather at Davis' office - say at noon on Monday, > tomorrow the 18th, unless someone has a better suggestion. > > Previous gatherings have mostly been rallies outside on the parking lot. > Instead I propose to pack the office, as people did for the health care > bill. About ten people can squeeze in, and if more come they can be in the > hallway. I'm not proposing a sit-in, not risking arrest, just an > uncomfortably large number of people coming to say we want Davis to vote > Hell No and not sell out our future for the sake of wealthy people and > corporate profits, and stick around for maybe a half hour or an hour or > until they throw us out. > > Problem: I may well be unable to be there myself (expecting a > yet-to-be-scheduled work meeting, which I'll be unable to skip, may get > scheduled for that hour). > > There's lots of source material, but here's a middle-of-the-road article > from Bloomberg of all places saying, basically, that corporate America > doesn't need the money, and naming things that we do need -- "The largest > economic challenges we face include a skills crisis that our public schools > are not addressing, crumbling infrastructure that imperils our global > competitiveness, wage stagnation coupled with growing wealth inequality, and > rising deficits that will worsen as more baby boomers retire. The tax bill > does nothing to address these challenges. In fact, it makes each of them > worse." > > > https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-15/this-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder > > Who would be in? > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > -- -- karen medina "The really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." - Mark Twain From cgestabrook at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 02:27:47 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 20:27:47 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu> <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com> <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu> <2ECC75BA-4204-45D1-8953-06116E9D50FD@gmail.com> <7347E5C3-8497-46C2-A6E9-559A1525E43E@gmail.com> Message-ID: You’re better than such hackneyed thinking, John. Read >. > On Dec 17, 2017, at 4:19 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss wrote: > > I think pacifists are wonderful, and would to God that everyone on earth shared the view. But there was no "negotiating" or "reconciling" with Hitler or with imperial Japan. You may recall that Chamberlain tried it. And while individuals may choose, courageously, to be pacifists, it's naive to imagine that it will ever become public policy in a highly militarized nation like the U.S. > > > On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 7:53 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: > > > > Why Nicholson Baker is a pacifist > > Anyone who makes even a modest habit of speaking out against war in public soon runs up against the inevitable, supposedly unanswerable question: What about World War II? (We have a whole category devoted to it.) It’s meant to be the ultimate stumper. This was the “good war,” wasn’t it, the war waged by the “greatest generation” against the evil incarnate of Hitler and imperial Japan? There was simply no other choice before the forces of goodness and truth but to leap into the single most deadly undertaking in all of human history. Right? > > That won’t work if you’re talking to Nicholson Baker. In an extraordinary cover story in this month’s issue of Harper’s Magazine, “Why I’m a Pacifist: The Dangerous Myth of the Good War,” Baker explains how learning about World War II was actually a big part of what made him a pacifist in the first place. “In fact,” he writes, > > the more I learn about the war, the more I understand that the pacifists were the only ones, during a time of catastrophic violence, who repeatedly put forward proposals that had any chance of saving a threatened people. They weren’t naïve, they weren’t unrealistic—they were psychologically acute realists. > > His thinking began drifting this way during the Gulf War, and continued to evolve through the sequence of American military operations since. In the Balkans, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and in talk about bombing Iran, he noticed that World War II kept coming up. It kept being used to justify one war after another. Every new enemy only had to be painted as another Hitler to ensure public support. > > By 2008, Baker published Human Smoke, a book that collects documents, newspaper reports, and notable utterances during the lead-up to World War II, revealing how determined the Allied leaders were to fight at any cost. But, because of its form, we don’t get much of his own voice in that book. “Why I’m a Pacifist” is a chance to hear more directly from Baker himself about how he came to the conclusions that he did about the war. > > I was so thrilled with the essay that the moment I put it down I wanted more, so I wrote to Baker with some questions about what he’d said. Our exchange was as follows: > > WNV: Why did you decide to write Human Smoke the way you did, and why now write about World War II again as you do in Harper’s? > > NB: Human Smoke deals atomistically with the beginnings of the war because I thought that was a good way of conveying the confusion and sadness of what was going on. You have to pause and think moment by moment in order to feel the gradual disintegration of civil restraint. The book stopped at the end of 1941. The Harper’s piece mostly concentrates on events from 1942 on, and it’s an effort to take up one big question: Were the pacifists right in calling for an immediate negotiated peace? > > WNV: Why do you say at the outset of the essay that you don’t expect most people to be persuaded? Is pacifism really such a lost cause? > > NB: No, pacifism isn’t a lost cause—in fact, most people, even generals and headbanging bar brawlers, act peaceably most of the time, or we’d get nothing done. “I’m not going to kill you” is basic to all cooperation. But during wars, pacifists are often in the minority and their arguments (so I’ve found!) make people really mad. Over time, these same people may and often do change their thinking, but it isn’t going to happen all at once. An inductive “nonviolent” approach to argumentation sometimes helps. > > WNV: What do you think American pacifists can do now, or should have done, to stop wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Libya? > > NB: American pacifists made heroic efforts to end those wars, using every channel available. They deserve our thanks. Afterward, when more people acknowledge that a military attack was a mistake, it helps to go back and see who really understood what was going on. I find it incredibly moving to see how right they were. Being able to stop a war isn’t the only reason for protesting a war. You may fail, but you still want to get it on record that there was an obvious better way as it was happening. The objection to any war has to be steady and constant, and one way of objecting is to re-examine historical touchstones. I wrote Human Smoke and “Why I’m a Pacifist” to recall, as others have, that the war resisters of World War II offered paths out of the horror at the time. Their steadiness and belief in reconciliation can help us now. We need new heroes. I’d rather think about Jessie Hughan, Abe Kaufman, Dorothy Day, Rabbi Cronbach, or Vera Brittain than Winston Churchill. > > WNV: What business does a novelist have to write on matters of war and peace anyway? > > NB: Tell that to Tolstoy. > > —. > > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 6:32 PM, John W. > wrote: >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: >> >> Would this strike you as a reasonable defense of WWII in Europe? >> >> “…German war-making antedates Hitler, and Roosevelt, and indeed the birth of modern Germany. War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature. German imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much. It's a continuum. And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states. Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.” >> >> My question is not rhetorical. See Nicholson Baker, "Human Smoke: The Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization” (2008). >> >> —CGE >> >> There's rarely a defense for war, and never for imperialism. But German imperialism and the notion that Germans were somehow a superior "race" certainly predated Hitler. He didn't invent it; he merely carried it a step further. >> >> What has been much more surprising is how Germany has reinvented itself in such a progressive way since World War II. But don't hold your breath. Neo-Nazism lurks just barely beneath the surface in Germany, just as it does in America. The pendulum will swing again, and man's brute nature will reassert itself. >> >> >> >> >>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:08 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: >>> >>> How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that deploring Trump’s character is not the way. >>> >>> The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of war and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies. >>> >>> He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and that was enough to terrify the neocons. >>> >>> Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points that out clearly. >>> >>> Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war ‘center’ … the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…" >>> >>> That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US war-making is. —CGE >>> >>> >>> Except that U.S. war-making antedates tRump, and Coolidge, and indeed the birth of the Republic. :-/ War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature. U.S. imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much. It's a continuum. And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states. Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>> > >>> > Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong, address to a Sanctuary audience. . >>> > >>> > —mkb >>> > >>> >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook > wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise >>> >> >>> >> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of. >>> >> >>> >> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”. >>> >> >>> >> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore. >>> >> >>> >> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn. >>> >> >>> >> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work. >>> >> >>> >> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now. >>> >> >>> >> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force. >>> >> >>> >> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead. >>> >> >>> >> --– Caitlin Johnstone > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davegreen84 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 18 03:19:47 2017 From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 03:19:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] last minute anti-tax-scam gathering in Davis' office -- noon Monday? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1485846380.330031.1513567187619@mail.yahoo.com> I will attend. On ‎Sunday‎, ‎December‎ ‎17‎, ‎2017‎ ‎06‎:‎59‎:‎05‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss wrote: I want to propose an action which may well bear no fruit, but so what. I'm ticked off at the reverse Robin Hood tax scam which our US Rep Davis is surely going to vote for, probably on Tuesday. Proposal: whoever can, gather at Davis' office - say at noon on Monday, tomorrow the 18th, unless someone has a better suggestion. Previous gatherings have mostly been rallies outside on the parking lot.   Instead I propose to pack the office, as people did for the health care bill.   About ten people can squeeze in, and if more come they can be in the hallway.   I'm not proposing a sit-in, not risking arrest, just an uncomfortably large number of people coming to say we want Davis to vote Hell No and not sell out our future for the sake of wealthy people and corporate profits, and stick around for maybe a half hour or an hour or until they throw us out. Problem: I may well be unable to be there myself (expecting a yet-to-be-scheduled work meeting, which I'll be unable to skip, may get scheduled for that hour).   There's lots of source material, but here's a middle-of-the-road article from Bloomberg of all places saying, basically, that corporate America doesn't need the money, and naming things that we do need -- "The largest economic challenges we face include a skills crisis that our public schools are not addressing, crumbling infrastructure that imperils our global competitiveness, wage stagnation coupled with growing wealth inequality, and rising deficits that will worsen as more baby boomers retire.  The tax bill does nothing to address these challenges. In fact, it makes each of them worse."    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-15/this-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder Who would be in? _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davegreen84 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 18 03:19:47 2017 From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 03:19:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] last minute anti-tax-scam gathering in Davis' office -- noon Monday? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1485846380.330031.1513567187619@mail.yahoo.com> I will attend. On ‎Sunday‎, ‎December‎ ‎17‎, ‎2017‎ ‎06‎:‎59‎:‎05‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss wrote: I want to propose an action which may well bear no fruit, but so what. I'm ticked off at the reverse Robin Hood tax scam which our US Rep Davis is surely going to vote for, probably on Tuesday. Proposal: whoever can, gather at Davis' office - say at noon on Monday, tomorrow the 18th, unless someone has a better suggestion. Previous gatherings have mostly been rallies outside on the parking lot.   Instead I propose to pack the office, as people did for the health care bill.   About ten people can squeeze in, and if more come they can be in the hallway.   I'm not proposing a sit-in, not risking arrest, just an uncomfortably large number of people coming to say we want Davis to vote Hell No and not sell out our future for the sake of wealthy people and corporate profits, and stick around for maybe a half hour or an hour or until they throw us out. Problem: I may well be unable to be there myself (expecting a yet-to-be-scheduled work meeting, which I'll be unable to skip, may get scheduled for that hour).   There's lots of source material, but here's a middle-of-the-road article from Bloomberg of all places saying, basically, that corporate America doesn't need the money, and naming things that we do need -- "The largest economic challenges we face include a skills crisis that our public schools are not addressing, crumbling infrastructure that imperils our global competitiveness, wage stagnation coupled with growing wealth inequality, and rising deficits that will worsen as more baby boomers retire.  The tax bill does nothing to address these challenges. In fact, it makes each of them worse."    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-15/this-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder Who would be in? _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 03:38:45 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 21:38:45 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] What we're up against In-Reply-To: References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com> <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com> <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu> <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu> <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com> <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu> <2ECC75BA-4204-45D1-8953-06116E9D50FD@gmail.com> <7347E5C3-8497-46C2-A6E9-559A1525E43E@gmail.com> Message-ID: With respect, John, that’s nonsense. Read about US provocations against Japan in the 1930s, and the following: >. —CGE > On Dec 17, 2017, at 4:19 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss wrote: > > I think pacifists are wonderful, and would to God that everyone on earth shared the view. But there was no "negotiating" or "reconciling" with Hitler or with imperial Japan. You may recall that Chamberlain tried it. And while individuals may choose, courageously, to be pacifists, it's naive to imagine that it will ever become public policy in a highly militarized nation like the U.S. > > > On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 7:53 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: > > > > Why Nicholson Baker is a pacifist > > Anyone who makes even a modest habit of speaking out against war in public soon runs up against the inevitable, supposedly unanswerable question: What about World War II? (We have a whole category devoted to it.) It’s meant to be the ultimate stumper. This was the “good war,” wasn’t it, the war waged by the “greatest generation” against the evil incarnate of Hitler and imperial Japan? There was simply no other choice before the forces of goodness and truth but to leap into the single most deadly undertaking in all of human history. Right? > > That won’t work if you’re talking to Nicholson Baker. In an extraordinary cover story in this month’s issue of Harper’s Magazine, “Why I’m a Pacifist: The Dangerous Myth of the Good War,” Baker explains how learning about World War II was actually a big part of what made him a pacifist in the first place. “In fact,” he writes, > > the more I learn about the war, the more I understand that the pacifists were the only ones, during a time of catastrophic violence, who repeatedly put forward proposals that had any chance of saving a threatened people. They weren’t naïve, they weren’t unrealistic—they were psychologically acute realists. > > His thinking began drifting this way during the Gulf War, and continued to evolve through the sequence of American military operations since. In the Balkans, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and in talk about bombing Iran, he noticed that World War II kept coming up. It kept being used to justify one war after another. Every new enemy only had to be painted as another Hitler to ensure public support. > > By 2008, Baker published Human Smoke, a book that collects documents, newspaper reports, and notable utterances during the lead-up to World War II, revealing how determined the Allied leaders were to fight at any cost. But, because of its form, we don’t get much of his own voice in that book. “Why I’m a Pacifist” is a chance to hear more directly from Baker himself about how he came to the conclusions that he did about the war. > > I was so thrilled with the essay that the moment I put it down I wanted more, so I wrote to Baker with some questions about what he’d said. Our exchange was as follows: > > WNV: Why did you decide to write Human Smoke the way you did, and why now write about World War II again as you do in Harper’s? > > NB: Human Smoke deals atomistically with the beginnings of the war because I thought that was a good way of conveying the confusion and sadness of what was going on. You have to pause and think moment by moment in order to feel the gradual disintegration of civil restraint. The book stopped at the end of 1941. The Harper’s piece mostly concentrates on events from 1942 on, and it’s an effort to take up one big question: Were the pacifists right in calling for an immediate negotiated peace? > > WNV: Why do you say at the outset of the essay that you don’t expect most people to be persuaded? Is pacifism really such a lost cause? > > NB: No, pacifism isn’t a lost cause—in fact, most people, even generals and headbanging bar brawlers, act peaceably most of the time, or we’d get nothing done. “I’m not going to kill you” is basic to all cooperation. But during wars, pacifists are often in the minority and their arguments (so I’ve found!) make people really mad. Over time, these same people may and often do change their thinking, but it isn’t going to happen all at once. An inductive “nonviolent” approach to argumentation sometimes helps. > > WNV: What do you think American pacifists can do now, or should have done, to stop wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Libya? > > NB: American pacifists made heroic efforts to end those wars, using every channel available. They deserve our thanks. Afterward, when more people acknowledge that a military attack was a mistake, it helps to go back and see who really understood what was going on. I find it incredibly moving to see how right they were. Being able to stop a war isn’t the only reason for protesting a war. You may fail, but you still want to get it on record that there was an obvious better way as it was happening. The objection to any war has to be steady and constant, and one way of objecting is to re-examine historical touchstones. I wrote Human Smoke and “Why I’m a Pacifist” to recall, as others have, that the war resisters of World War II offered paths out of the horror at the time. Their steadiness and belief in reconciliation can help us now. We need new heroes. I’d rather think about Jessie Hughan, Abe Kaufman, Dorothy Day, Rabbi Cronbach, or Vera Brittain than Winston Churchill. > > WNV: What business does a novelist have to write on matters of war and peace anyway? > > NB: Tell that to Tolstoy. > > —. > > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 6:32 PM, John W. > wrote: >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: >> >> Would this strike you as a reasonable defense of WWII in Europe? >> >> “…German war-making antedates Hitler, and Roosevelt, and indeed the birth of modern Germany. War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature. German imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much. It's a continuum. And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states. Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.” >> >> My question is not rhetorical. See Nicholson Baker, "Human Smoke: The Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization” (2008). >> >> —CGE >> >> There's rarely a defense for war, and never for imperialism. But German imperialism and the notion that Germans were somehow a superior "race" certainly predated Hitler. He didn't invent it; he merely carried it a step further. >> >> What has been much more surprising is how Germany has reinvented itself in such a progressive way since World War II. But don't hold your breath. Neo-Nazism lurks just barely beneath the surface in Germany, just as it does in America. The pendulum will swing again, and man's brute nature will reassert itself. >> >> >> >> >>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:08 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM, C G Estabrook > wrote: >>> >>> How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that deploring Trump’s character is not the way. >>> >>> The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of war and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies. >>> >>> He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and that was enough to terrify the neocons. >>> >>> Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points that out clearly. >>> >>> Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war ‘center’ … the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…" >>> >>> That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US war-making is. —CGE >>> >>> >>> Except that U.S. war-making antedates tRump, and Coolidge, and indeed the birth of the Republic. :-/ War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature. U.S. imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much. It's a continuum. And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states. Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>> > >>> > Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong, address to a Sanctuary audience. . >>> > >>> > —mkb >>> > >>> >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook > wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise >>> >> >>> >> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of. >>> >> >>> >> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”. >>> >> >>> >> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore. >>> >> >>> >> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn. >>> >> >>> >> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work. >>> >> >>> >> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now. >>> >> >>> >> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force. >>> >> >>> >> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead. >>> >> >>> >> --– Caitlin Johnstone > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Mon Dec 18 03:50:14 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 03:50:14 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] last minute anti-tax-scam gathering in Davis' office -- noon Monday? In-Reply-To: <1485846380.330031.1513567187619@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1485846380.330031.1513567187619@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I’ll try, have a dental appt. in the morning, but will try. On Dec 17, 2017, at 19:19, David Green via Peace-discuss > wrote: I will attend. On ‎Sunday‎, ‎December‎ ‎17‎, ‎2017‎ ‎06‎:‎59‎:‎05‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss > wrote: I want to propose an action which may well bear no fruit, but so what. I'm ticked off at the reverse Robin Hood tax scam which our US Rep Davis is surely going to vote for, probably on Tuesday. Proposal: whoever can, gather at Davis' office - say at noon on Monday, tomorrow the 18th, unless someone has a better suggestion. Previous gatherings have mostly been rallies outside on the parking lot. Instead I propose to pack the office, as people did for the health care bill. About ten people can squeeze in, and if more come they can be in the hallway. I'm not proposing a sit-in, not risking arrest, just an uncomfortably large number of people coming to say we want Davis to vote Hell No and not sell out our future for the sake of wealthy people and corporate profits, and stick around for maybe a half hour or an hour or until they throw us out. Problem: I may well be unable to be there myself (expecting a yet-to-be-scheduled work meeting, which I'll be unable to skip, may get scheduled for that hour). There's lots of source material, but here's a middle-of-the-road article from Bloomberg of all places saying, basically, that corporate America doesn't need the money, and naming things that we do need -- "The largest economic challenges we face include a skills crisis that our public schools are not addressing, crumbling infrastructure that imperils our global competitiveness, wage stagnation coupled with growing wealth inequality, and rising deficits that will worsen as more baby boomers retire. The tax bill does nothing to address these challenges. In fact, it makes each of them worse." https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-15/this-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder Who would be in? _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C547330e08f1f4e626b7808d545c64216%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636491640170983828&sdata=T0g%2B%2FUauySygT1MldUjsI1z4H3Yi9%2Bk5vU%2Fnjoe%2FsWQ%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Mon Dec 18 03:50:14 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 03:50:14 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] last minute anti-tax-scam gathering in Davis' office -- noon Monday? In-Reply-To: <1485846380.330031.1513567187619@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1485846380.330031.1513567187619@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I’ll try, have a dental appt. in the morning, but will try. On Dec 17, 2017, at 19:19, David Green via Peace-discuss > wrote: I will attend. On ‎Sunday‎, ‎December‎ ‎17‎, ‎2017‎ ‎06‎:‎59‎:‎05‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss > wrote: I want to propose an action which may well bear no fruit, but so what. I'm ticked off at the reverse Robin Hood tax scam which our US Rep Davis is surely going to vote for, probably on Tuesday. Proposal: whoever can, gather at Davis' office - say at noon on Monday, tomorrow the 18th, unless someone has a better suggestion. Previous gatherings have mostly been rallies outside on the parking lot. Instead I propose to pack the office, as people did for the health care bill. About ten people can squeeze in, and if more come they can be in the hallway. I'm not proposing a sit-in, not risking arrest, just an uncomfortably large number of people coming to say we want Davis to vote Hell No and not sell out our future for the sake of wealthy people and corporate profits, and stick around for maybe a half hour or an hour or until they throw us out. Problem: I may well be unable to be there myself (expecting a yet-to-be-scheduled work meeting, which I'll be unable to skip, may get scheduled for that hour). There's lots of source material, but here's a middle-of-the-road article from Bloomberg of all places saying, basically, that corporate America doesn't need the money, and naming things that we do need -- "The largest economic challenges we face include a skills crisis that our public schools are not addressing, crumbling infrastructure that imperils our global competitiveness, wage stagnation coupled with growing wealth inequality, and rising deficits that will worsen as more baby boomers retire. The tax bill does nothing to address these challenges. In fact, it makes each of them worse." https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-15/this-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder Who would be in? _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C547330e08f1f4e626b7808d545c64216%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636491640170983828&sdata=T0g%2B%2FUauySygT1MldUjsI1z4H3Yi9%2Bk5vU%2Fnjoe%2FsWQ%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 10:23:59 2017 From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 04:23:59 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] last minute anti-tax-scam gathering in Davis' office -- noon Monday? In-Reply-To: References: <1485846380.330031.1513567187619@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I will stop by and will spread the word. Deb On 12/17/17, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: > I’ll try, have a dental appt. in the morning, but will try. > > On Dec 17, 2017, at 19:19, David Green via Peace-discuss > > > wrote: > > I will attend. > > On ‎Sunday‎, ‎December‎ ‎17‎, ‎2017‎ ‎06‎:‎59‎:‎05‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, Stuart Levy > via Peace-discuss > > > wrote: > > > I want to propose an action which may well bear no fruit, but so what. > > I'm ticked off at the reverse Robin Hood tax scam which our US Rep Davis is > surely going to vote for, probably on Tuesday. > > Proposal: whoever can, gather at Davis' office - say at noon on Monday, > tomorrow the 18th, unless someone has a better suggestion. > > Previous gatherings have mostly been rallies outside on the parking lot. > Instead I propose to pack the office, as people did for the health care > bill. About ten people can squeeze in, and if more come they can be in the > hallway. I'm not proposing a sit-in, not risking arrest, just an > uncomfortably large number of people coming to say we want Davis to vote > Hell No and not sell out our future for the sake of wealthy people and > corporate profits, and stick around for maybe a half hour or an hour or > until they throw us out. > > Problem: I may well be unable to be there myself (expecting a > yet-to-be-scheduled work meeting, which I'll be unable to skip, may get > scheduled for that hour). > > There's lots of source material, but here's a middle-of-the-road article > from Bloomberg of all places saying, basically, that corporate America > doesn't need the money, and naming things that we do need -- "The largest > economic challenges we face include a skills crisis that our public schools > are not addressing, crumbling infrastructure that imperils our global > competitiveness, wage stagnation coupled with growing wealth inequality, and > rising deficits that will worsen as more baby boomers retire. The tax bill > does nothing to address these challenges. In fact, it makes each of them > worse." > > > https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-15/this-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder > > Who would be in? > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C547330e08f1f4e626b7808d545c64216%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636491640170983828&sdata=T0g%2B%2FUauySygT1MldUjsI1z4H3Yi9%2Bk5vU%2Fnjoe%2FsWQ%3D&reserved=0 > > From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 10:23:59 2017 From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 04:23:59 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] last minute anti-tax-scam gathering in Davis' office -- noon Monday? In-Reply-To: References: <1485846380.330031.1513567187619@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I will stop by and will spread the word. Deb On 12/17/17, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: > I’ll try, have a dental appt. in the morning, but will try. > > On Dec 17, 2017, at 19:19, David Green via Peace-discuss > > > wrote: > > I will attend. > > On ‎Sunday‎, ‎December‎ ‎17‎, ‎2017‎ ‎06‎:‎59‎:‎05‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, Stuart Levy > via Peace-discuss > > > wrote: > > > I want to propose an action which may well bear no fruit, but so what. > > I'm ticked off at the reverse Robin Hood tax scam which our US Rep Davis is > surely going to vote for, probably on Tuesday. > > Proposal: whoever can, gather at Davis' office - say at noon on Monday, > tomorrow the 18th, unless someone has a better suggestion. > > Previous gatherings have mostly been rallies outside on the parking lot. > Instead I propose to pack the office, as people did for the health care > bill. About ten people can squeeze in, and if more come they can be in the > hallway. I'm not proposing a sit-in, not risking arrest, just an > uncomfortably large number of people coming to say we want Davis to vote > Hell No and not sell out our future for the sake of wealthy people and > corporate profits, and stick around for maybe a half hour or an hour or > until they throw us out. > > Problem: I may well be unable to be there myself (expecting a > yet-to-be-scheduled work meeting, which I'll be unable to skip, may get > scheduled for that hour). > > There's lots of source material, but here's a middle-of-the-road article > from Bloomberg of all places saying, basically, that corporate America > doesn't need the money, and naming things that we do need -- "The largest > economic challenges we face include a skills crisis that our public schools > are not addressing, crumbling infrastructure that imperils our global > competitiveness, wage stagnation coupled with growing wealth inequality, and > rising deficits that will worsen as more baby boomers retire. The tax bill > does nothing to address these challenges. In fact, it makes each of them > worse." > > > https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-15/this-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder > > Who would be in? > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C547330e08f1f4e626b7808d545c64216%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636491640170983828&sdata=T0g%2B%2FUauySygT1MldUjsI1z4H3Yi9%2Bk5vU%2Fnjoe%2FsWQ%3D&reserved=0 > > From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 10:51:40 2017 From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 04:51:40 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] last minute anti-tax-scam gathering in Davis' office -- noon Monday? In-Reply-To: References: <1485846380.330031.1513567187619@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey, what if we jam his phone lines with a verse form "You're a mean one,Mr. Davis"? His DC voice mail is open right now: 202-225-2371 On 12/18/17, Debra Schrishuhn wrote: > I will stop by and will spread the word. > Deb > > On 12/17/17, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >> I’ll try, have a dental appt. in the morning, but will try. >> >> On Dec 17, 2017, at 19:19, David Green via Peace-discuss >> > >> wrote: >> >> I will attend. >> >> On ‎Sunday‎, ‎December‎ ‎17‎, ‎2017‎ ‎06‎:‎59‎:‎05‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, Stuart >> Levy >> via Peace-discuss >> > >> wrote: >> >> >> I want to propose an action which may well bear no fruit, but so what. >> >> I'm ticked off at the reverse Robin Hood tax scam which our US Rep Davis >> is >> surely going to vote for, probably on Tuesday. >> >> Proposal: whoever can, gather at Davis' office - say at noon on Monday, >> tomorrow the 18th, unless someone has a better suggestion. >> >> Previous gatherings have mostly been rallies outside on the parking lot. >> Instead I propose to pack the office, as people did for the health care >> bill. About ten people can squeeze in, and if more come they can be in >> the >> hallway. I'm not proposing a sit-in, not risking arrest, just an >> uncomfortably large number of people coming to say we want Davis to vote >> Hell No and not sell out our future for the sake of wealthy people and >> corporate profits, and stick around for maybe a half hour or an hour or >> until they throw us out. >> >> Problem: I may well be unable to be there myself (expecting a >> yet-to-be-scheduled work meeting, which I'll be unable to skip, may get >> scheduled for that hour). >> >> There's lots of source material, but here's a middle-of-the-road article >> from Bloomberg of all places saying, basically, that corporate America >> doesn't need the money, and naming things that we do need -- "The largest >> economic challenges we face include a skills crisis that our public >> schools >> are not addressing, crumbling infrastructure that imperils our global >> competitiveness, wage stagnation coupled with growing wealth inequality, >> and >> rising deficits that will worsen as more baby boomers retire. The tax >> bill >> does nothing to address these challenges. In fact, it makes each of them >> worse." >> >> >> https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-15/this-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder >> >> Who would be in? >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C547330e08f1f4e626b7808d545c64216%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636491640170983828&sdata=T0g%2B%2FUauySygT1MldUjsI1z4H3Yi9%2Bk5vU%2Fnjoe%2FsWQ%3D&reserved=0 >> >> > From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 10:51:40 2017 From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 04:51:40 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] last minute anti-tax-scam gathering in Davis' office -- noon Monday? In-Reply-To: References: <1485846380.330031.1513567187619@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey, what if we jam his phone lines with a verse form "You're a mean one,Mr. Davis"? His DC voice mail is open right now: 202-225-2371 On 12/18/17, Debra Schrishuhn wrote: > I will stop by and will spread the word. > Deb > > On 12/17/17, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >> I’ll try, have a dental appt. in the morning, but will try. >> >> On Dec 17, 2017, at 19:19, David Green via Peace-discuss >> > >> wrote: >> >> I will attend. >> >> On ‎Sunday‎, ‎December‎ ‎17‎, ‎2017‎ ‎06‎:‎59‎:‎05‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, Stuart >> Levy >> via Peace-discuss >> > >> wrote: >> >> >> I want to propose an action which may well bear no fruit, but so what. >> >> I'm ticked off at the reverse Robin Hood tax scam which our US Rep Davis >> is >> surely going to vote for, probably on Tuesday. >> >> Proposal: whoever can, gather at Davis' office - say at noon on Monday, >> tomorrow the 18th, unless someone has a better suggestion. >> >> Previous gatherings have mostly been rallies outside on the parking lot. >> Instead I propose to pack the office, as people did for the health care >> bill. About ten people can squeeze in, and if more come they can be in >> the >> hallway. I'm not proposing a sit-in, not risking arrest, just an >> uncomfortably large number of people coming to say we want Davis to vote >> Hell No and not sell out our future for the sake of wealthy people and >> corporate profits, and stick around for maybe a half hour or an hour or >> until they throw us out. >> >> Problem: I may well be unable to be there myself (expecting a >> yet-to-be-scheduled work meeting, which I'll be unable to skip, may get >> scheduled for that hour). >> >> There's lots of source material, but here's a middle-of-the-road article >> from Bloomberg of all places saying, basically, that corporate America >> doesn't need the money, and naming things that we do need -- "The largest >> economic challenges we face include a skills crisis that our public >> schools >> are not addressing, crumbling infrastructure that imperils our global >> competitiveness, wage stagnation coupled with growing wealth inequality, >> and >> rising deficits that will worsen as more baby boomers retire. The tax >> bill >> does nothing to address these challenges. In fact, it makes each of them >> worse." >> >> >> https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-15/this-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder >> >> Who would be in? >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C547330e08f1f4e626b7808d545c64216%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636491640170983828&sdata=T0g%2B%2FUauySygT1MldUjsI1z4H3Yi9%2Bk5vU%2Fnjoe%2FsWQ%3D&reserved=0 >> >> > From karenaram at hotmail.com Mon Dec 18 13:44:23 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 13:44:23 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The United States of Inequality Message-ID: * e * Print * Leaflet * Feedback * Share » The United States of Inequality 18 December 2017 Last week, as Congress rushed to pass a tax bill that will transfer trillions of dollars to the financial oligarchy, two separate teams of experts published damning reports documenting the growth of social inequality in the United States. On Thursday, a group of leading inequality researchers, including Thomas Piketty, Emmanuel Saez and Gabriel Zucman, published its 2018 World Inequality Report, which shows that the United States is far more unequal than the advanced economies of Western Europe, as well as much of the rest of the world. [http://www.wsws.org/asset/789d1600-3031-4a45-8af6-67c34767935I/image.png?rendition=image480] The researchers reported that the income share of the top 1 percent of US income earners rose from 10 percent in 1980 to 20 percent in 2016, while the income share of the bottom 50 percent fell from 20 percent to 13 percent over the same period. The bottom 90 percent controls just 27 percent of the wealth today, compared to 40 percent three decades ago. [http://www.wsws.org/asset/027b1566-97a6-475b-9398-c4a8b47b421B/image.png?rendition=image480] Another graphic indictment of American society was offered by Philip Alston, the UN special rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights, who argued in a report published Friday that the prevalence of extreme poverty amid unimaginable opulence in the US is a violation of basic human rights. The fact that the United States has invaded, bombed and destabilized countries all over the world on the pretext of defending “human rights” is no doubt one of the reasons the corporate-controlled media has chosen to bury both of these reports. Alston writes of the “sewage filled yards in states where governments don’t consider sanitation facilities to be their responsibility,” of “people who had lost all of their teeth because adult dental care is not covered by the vast majority of programs available to the very poor,” and of “soaring death rates and family and community destruction wrought by prescription and other drug addiction.” He notes that the extreme concentration of wealth has eroded the foundations of American democracy, writing: “There is no other developed country where so many voters are disenfranchised… and where ordinary voters ultimately have so little impact on political outcomes.” In its Sunday edition, the New York Times published an editorial titled “The Tax Bill That Inequality Created.” The newspaper criticizes the bill being rammed through Congress for “lavishing breaks on corporations and the wealthy while taking benefits away from the poor and the middle class.” The editors add, “What many may not realize is that growing inequality helped create the bill in the first place.” A “smaller and smaller group of people” have become “in effect, kingmakers,” seeking to “bend American politics to serve their interests… rich families have supported candidates who share their hostility to progressive taxation, welfare programs and government regulation of any kind.” The editors place the onus on Republicans, though they acknowledge that “donations from Wall Street and corporate America have… pushed many Democrats to the center or even to the right on issues like financial regulation, international trade, antitrust policy and welfare reform.” There is a striking disconnect between the Times’ portrait of American society and its prescription, which, in the end, is to support the Democratic Party. The editorial concludes by hailing the election of right-wing Democrat Doug Jones in Alabama as proof that “inequality in America does not have to be self-perpetuating.” The Times does not see fit to mention that in the 2016 elections it wholeheartedly backed a candidate, Hillary Clinton, who is completely beholden to “Wall Street and corporate America.” Nor does it recall that just last month it published an editorial declaring its full support for corporate tax cuts, the heart of the Republican tax plan. The Times wrote, “If Republicans worked with Democrats, they could reach a compromise to lower the top corporate tax rate.” Entirely absent from the Times’ account is any explanation of why and how the United States has come to this point, or what the colossal levels of social inequality imply for the future of American society. This is because to do so would mean raising the question of the capitalist system itself, which the newspaper fervently supports. The present situation did not arise from nowhere. Nor is it simply the product of the nefarious operations of one party. The emergence of oligarchic forms of rule, or “kingmakers,” is the product of a long historical evolution. The ideological foundations of 20th century American capitalism—the “American Dream,” the idea that the development of American capitalism would “lift all boats,” that each generation would be better off than the last—are now a distant memory. During the first part of the last century, the American ruling class responded to the eruption of class conflict and the threat of socialist revolution, represented above all by the Russian Revolution, with social reforms—Roosevelt’s New Deal (including Social Security), increases in taxes on the wealthy, and the Great Society programs of the 1960s (including Medicare and Medicaid). These measures, however, were implemented within the framework of preserving a social and economic system based on private ownership of the banks and corporations. Moreover, they were premised on the strength of American capitalism and its dominant position in the world economy. The shift in ruling-class strategy corresponded with a shift in the position of American capitalism. Over the past half-century, the ruling class has sought to offset the decline in its economic position externally through military aggression and internally through the upward redistribution of social resources from the great mass of the population to the financial oligarchy. The results can be seen in the curve of social inequality, which shows the top one percent steadily amassing a greater share of wealth and income. The trajectory has continued under both Democrats and Republicans. The Times editorial refers to the enormous growth of inequality over the past three decades. However, during this period Democrats occupied the presidency for 16 years (two terms for Clinton, two terms for Obama), compared to 12 years for Republicans (one term for Bush Sr, two for Bush Jr.). The processes of deregulation and financialization and the slashing of social programs have continued unabated, regardless of the political party controlling the White House and Capitol Hill. All the institutions of American society have had their role to play in this social counterrevolution. The trade unions have transformed themselves into appendages of corporate management, relinquishing all claim to being “workers’ organizations.” During the 1980s, they isolated and suppressed every single strike or struggle against the onslaught of the rich. Today, they serve as cheap-labor contractors and industrial police for the ruling class, while providing comfortable sinecures for the upper-middle class functionaries that control them. The Trump administration and its tax bill, far from being an aberration, are the continuation of this class policy. The state of American society—to which ruling classes around the world look as a model—is a confirmation of Marxism. Capitalism is characterized by an irreconcilable conflict between the working class, the vast majority of humanity, and the ruling elite. The state is not a neutral arbiter, but an instrument of class rule. The working class must organize itself independently, with the aim of restructuring social and economic life. The Democrats are no less terrified of this prospect than the Republicans. Hence the endless attempts to divert and disorient—from the anti-Russia campaign to the current hysteria over sexual harassment being promoted by the New York Times, among others. When the Workers League in the US formed the Socialist Equality Party eighteen years ago, it noted that the dominant feature in political life was “the widening gap between a small percentage of the population that enjoys unprecedented wealth and the broad mass of the working population that lives in varying degrees of economic uncertainty and distress.” This analysis has been confirmed over the subsequent two decades. Just as the meteoric rise of social inequality is the inexorable outcome of the capitalist system, so too is the socialist transformation of society the only means to rid American and world society of the scourge of social inequality and the domination of the financial oligarchy, whose grip over social and economic life has become the principal obstacle to human progress. Andre Damon WSWS.ORG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Tue Dec 19 13:23:41 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 13:23:41 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Our national security strategy Message-ID: * Print * Leaflet * Feedback * Share » Trump unveils “America First” national security strategy By Bill Van Auken 19 December 2017 President Donald Trump delivered a speech in Washington Monday introducing his administration’s new “America First” National Security Strategy, a 55-page document that sets out in blunt terms the preparations for a new world war. Whether Trump had even read the document was far from clear. His address itself was essentially a barely warmed over campaign stump speech, celebrating his election in November 2016, his inauguration in 2017 and touting all of his “America First” and “Make America Great Again” themes, ranging from building a border wall and cracking down on immigrants to ripping up trade and climate agreements and upending the nuclear accord with Iran. Delivered in a flat and indifferent monotone, the speech had all the earmarks of a piece drafted by Trump’s fascistic senior policy advisor Stephen Miller, with its strident anti-immigrant themes, its invocation of American “culture” and “values” and its vow that “we will stand up for ourselves, and we will stand up for our country like we have never stood up before.” Trump cast his administration’s nearly one-year tenure as an economic turnaround for the United States, reflected above all in the stock market reaching an “all-time high” Monday for the 85th time since his election. He vowed that pending tax cuts for the corporations and the rich combined with the slashing of regulations would continue this trend. There was more than a faint echo of Hitlerian ideology in Trump’s address, with its denunciations of past presidents for betraying the “forgotten” American citizens and its vow to restore the economy by building up the military and the American arms industry. “Our will is renewed, our future is regained, and our dreams are restored,” Trump concluded in his address, adding, “Every American has a role to play in this grand national effort.” The essence of the National Security Strategy document itself consists of a call for the preparation for a new era of “great power” conflict and world war. While including Trump’s themes of militarizing the border and hounding immigrants along with invocations of American nationalism, the meat of the document reflects the thinking within the cabal of active duty and retired generals who dominate US foreign policy, including National Security Advisor Gen. H. R. McMaster, Defense Secretary Gen. James “Mad Dog” Mattis and Trump’s chief of staff, Gen. James Kelly. McMaster, who reportedly played the leading role in the drafting of the document, expressed the thrust of its message in a conference organized last week by a British think tank, Policy Exchange. “Geopolitics are back, and back with a vengeance, after this holiday from history we took in the so-called post-Cold War period,” McMaster said. After a quarter century of uninterrupted US wars in the wake of the Stalinist bureaucracy’s dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, McMaster and his fellow generals are using the new National Security Strategy to insist that Washington has been insufficiently aggressive and to push for an unprecedented upsurge in American militarism, directed at preparing for global war directed against China and Russia, both nuclear powers. The document describes both China and Russia as “revisionist powers” and “hostile competitors” that are seeking “to shape a world antithetical to US values and interests.” “China and Russia challenge American power, influence, and interests, attempting to erode American security and prosperity,” the document states. “These competitions require the United States to rethink the policies of the past two decades—policies based on the assumption that engagement with rivals and their inclusion in international institutions and global commerce would turn them into benign actors and trustworthy partners,” the document continues. “For the most part, this premise turned out to be false.” The document includes an agenda for trade war and a set of domestic economic policies in its national security prescriptions—all of them aimed at transferring wealth from the working class to Wall Street through tax cuts, deregulation and “restraining federal spending.” Its principal demand, however, is for an unrestrained military buildup. While the multiple wars waged over the past 16 years have drained nearly $6 trillion from the US economy, and Washington continues to spend more on its military than the next eight countries combined, the document presents the massive US war machine as dangerously underfunded and undermanned. “Since the 1990s, the United States displayed a great degree of strategic complacency,” the document states. “Instead of building military capacity, as threats to our national security increased, the United States dramatically cut the size of our military ... Instead of developing important capabilities, the Joint Force entered a nearly decade long ‘procurement holiday’ during which the acquisition of new weapon systems was severely limited.” The “holiday,” the document indicates, is over. A military buildup is required to confront the attempt by China and Russia to “reassert their influence regionally and globally.” “Today, they are fielding military capabilities designed to deny America access in times of crisis and to contest our ability to operate freely in critical commercial zones during peacetime,” it states. “In short, they are contesting our geopolitical advantages and trying to change the international order in their favor.” The Pentagon, it states, must achieve military “overmatch—the combination of capabilities in sufficient scale to prevent enemy success and to ensure that America’s sons and daughters will never be in a fair fight.” At the same time, it rejects what it describes as a post-Cold War conception that “all wars would be fought and won quickly, from stand-off distances and with minimal casualties.” Implicitly, what now must be accepted is the prospect for far larger wars that will involve the deaths of American troops on a scale not seen since the Second World War. “To retain military overmatch the United States must restore our ability to produce innovative capabilities, restore the readiness of our forces for major war, and grow the size of the force so that it is capable of operating at sufficient scale and for ample duration to win across a range of scenarios,” the document continues. “The United States must reverse recent decisions to reduce the size of the Joint Force and grow the force while modernizing and ensuring readiness.” While calling for a substantial buildup of troop levels, the document also lays heavy stress on the strengthening of US capabilities in terms of waging nuclear war. “The United States must maintain the credible deterrence and assurance capabilities provided by our nuclear Triad and by US theater nuclear capabilities deployed abroad,” it states. “Significant investment is needed to maintain a US nuclear arsenal and infrastructure that is able to meet national security threats over the coming decades.” In what amounts to a brief for nuclear war brinksmanship, the document asserts: “We will not allow adversaries to use threats of nuclear escalation or other irresponsible nuclear behaviors to coerce the United States, our allies, and our partners. Fear of escalation will not prevent the United States from defending our vital interests and those of our allies and partners.” The National Security Strategy document constitutes a grave warning. In 2002, the administration of George W. Bush issued such a document advocating “preemptive war.” Within a year, US troops had invaded Iraq, launching a war of aggression based upon lies. The present document is making the case for a world war fought with nuclear weapons. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Tue Dec 19 17:36:10 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 11:36:10 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: More Legal Warfare: How Critics of Israel Are Being Subjected to Aggressive Lawsuits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008501d378ef$dc7ad270$95707750$@comcast.net> More Legal Warfare: How Critics of Israel Are Being Subjected to Aggressive Lawsuits http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/42948-more-legal-warfare-how-critics-of-israel-are-being-subjected-to-aggressive-lawsuits Monday, December 18, 2017By Bill Mullen, David Palumbo-Liu and Heike Schotten, Truthout | Op-Ed · · font size Image removed by sender. decrease font size Image removed by sender. increase font size · Print · Image removed by sender. Over a thousand people march to protest President Trump's decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel in Washington, DC, on December 16, 2017. (Photo: Samuel Corum / Anadolu Agency / Getty Images)Over 1,000 people march to protest President Trump's decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel in Washington, DC, on December 16, 2017. (Photo: Samuel Corum / Anadolu Agency / Getty Images) Help Truthout keep publishing stories like this: They can't be found in corporate media! Chip in now by clicking here. As the Trump administration announced its intent to move the US embassy to Jerusalem (in blatant disregard of UN Resolution 181 and UNGA Resolution 303), and the Netanyahu government moves ever rightward, continuing its demolition of Palestinian homes for the building of illegal settlements, the US government's support for Israel only increases. Kenneth Marcus, Trump's nominee to head the Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights, is well-known for advancing pro-Israel agendas and clamping down on Palestine solidarity activism on campus. All of these actions have generated a groundswell of protest, especially in the academy. Universities have now become a key battlefield for public opinion and education on Palestine, so it is no wonder that pro-Israel forces are targeting them. One of the most momentous academic actions with regard to Israel-Palestine was the endorsement of the academic boycott of Israel by the American Studies Association (ASA) in December 2013. Members voted by a decisive 2-1 margin to boycott Israeli universities. Key arguments in favor of the boycott included the ASA's own long tradition of mounting critiques of settler colonialism, racism and US imperialism. Supporters of the boycott also argued that Israeli universities develop weaponry and research for Israel's illegal occupation, and that rather than being bastions of free speech, Israeli universities predominantly follow the government line and dissidents are persecuted. Ever since that moment, the ASA has been attacked and harassed continually. Recently, the Wall Street Journal published an editorial by attorneys who served as advisers to a lawsuit against the ASA for its membership vote -- " Anti-Israel Activists Subvert a Scholarly Group." The attorneys allege that the boycott vote was the result of a "small cadre of academics" who "infiltrated" the organization. They attempted to portray the clearly free and democratic voting process of 800 members as the result of a hostile takeover. In fact, the lawsuit against the ASA is nothing more than political sour grapes. It was brought in April 2016 by the Brandeis Center, a long-time advocate for Israel. Its motivation is purely political, and its connections to the Trump administration and its allies clear: Kenneth Marcus, mentioned above, is a founder and president of the Center. Indeed, in April of this year, a Washington, DC, district court dismissed major claims of the lawsuit, including a claim that the vote to boycott Israeli universities went beyond the Association's operating charter. Undeterred, Brandeis Center attorneys have attempted to smear and discredit members and leaders of the Association who supported the boycott resolution. Using McCarthyite tactics and language, they have accused ASA leaders of using "unsavory" methods and duping the membership. An attorney for the plaintiffs said: "This case is about the illegal, hostile takeover of a non-profit, academic association by leaders of an anti-Israel group.... Through a series of misrepresentations and breaches of duty, [US Campaign for the Academic and Cultural Boycott of Israel] activists obtained positions of trust in the ASA, and then abused those positions in order to capture and exploit the assets of the ASA to advance the agenda of the BDS movement." Their harassing lawsuit, a prime example of "lawfare," is a political response to the growing trend in universities worldwide to criticize Israel's illegal occupation by boycotting Israeli universities, thereby signaling that business cannot go on as usual, so long as Israeli universities continue to support the occupation in intellectual and material ways. In the wake of the ASA vote, for example, the National Women's Studies Association, the Critical Ethnic Studies Association and the National Association of Chicano and Chicana Studies also voted to boycott Israeli universities. Prior to the ASA vote, the Association for Asian American Studies was the first academic organization to endorse the boycott -- and it, too, became the object of attack. The Brandeis lawsuit is the last legal gasp to stop an emerging consensus in the academy that Israeli apartheid is wrong. The legal smear campaign also seeks to intimidate scholars everywhere who support boycott of Israeli universities. But its claims are patently false. The ASA vote was not taken precipitously, in darkness and intrigue, smuggled through improperly. It was the culmination of years of public discussion and patient scholarly deliberation within the Association about whether or not to boycott. From 2009 to 2013, the Association's annual meeting featured public speakers, including Palestinians, discussing reasons why US universities should boycott Israeli universities. In 2012, American Quarterly, the flagship journal of the Association, dedicated an entire issue to discussion of walls and borders, including the Israeli apartheid wall. >From December 2012, when a resolution to boycott was introduced, to December 2013, the Association provided space within pages of its newsletter -- and its website -- for debate and discussion about boycott. Leadership of the Association also held an open "town hall" about boycott at its annual national conference in November 2013, where nearly 100 Association members spoke. Overwhelmingly, those who did speak spoke in favor of boycott. That fewer speakers came out against the boycott should not be blamed on the ASA -- it should be blamed on the weakness of the argument against the boycott, and the failure of anti-boycotters to present an organized, coherent and convincing counterargument. What these well-funded pro-Israel lobbyists and lawyers now suing the ASA fail to understand is that more and more people across the United States, in the academy and beyond, recognize Israel for what it is: an apartheid state engaged in an illegal and deadly occupation. They have been moved to do something about that recognition, and thus they engage in nonviolent civil disobedience -- or boycott. Boycotting is a time-honored tactic of social justice movements. From the Montgomery bus boycotts, to farmworkers' strikes, to supporters of transgender people's right to use the bathroom that matches their gender identity, boycotts are tried-and-true methods for achieving justice. Finally, the Brandeis Center lawsuit not only silences social justice movements, but it does so by targeting women, people of color and Palestinians. Although dozens of people were involved in the organizing for the boycott resolution within the ASA and more than 800 voted in favor of it, the lawsuit names as defendants primarily scholars of color -- and women -- some of them queer. The campaign to boycott Israeli universities will continue -- and continue to grow -- undeterred by such ridiculous and shabby legal challenges that evince only the desperation and intellectual and moral poverty of the claimants. That is the surest outcome of the ASA's courageous and wholly democratic vote. Note: The authors are members of the Organizing Collective of the US Campaign for the Academic and Cultural Boycott of Israel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5132 bytes Desc: not available URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Tue Dec 19 17:58:19 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 11:58:19 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Greg Palast: typical candor, insight, and humor on why Trump won Message-ID: <00ad01d378f2$f4291c30$dc7b5490$@comcast.net> Check out the link below. Very informative. David J. Greg Palast: typical candor, insight, and humor on why Trump won December 2, 2017 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brussel at illinois.edu Tue Dec 19 19:41:45 2017 From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 19:41:45 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: [ufpj-activist] Oh For Godsake, Leave Jill Stein Alone References: Message-ID: <628E55CC-CCC1-4A14-ABF6-34BA251AEC2C@illinois.edu> David Swanson, for Jill Stein, and her platforms, Begin forwarded message: From: David Swanson > Subject: [ufpj-activist] Oh For Godsake, Leave Jill Stein Alone Date: December 19, 2017 at 11:26:13 AM CST To: David Swanson > Oh For Godsake, Leave Jill Stein Alone By David Swanson http://davidswanson.org/oh-for-godsake-leave-jill-stein-alone/ I’ve known Jill Stein for years. I knew weeks ago that the Senate “Intelligence” Committee was coming after her. I set up this petition to put reasonable limits on Russiagate. But I’ve not heard from Jill, nor had any secret communication from my good friend Vladimir, nor any such nonsense. I criticize the Russian and U.S. governments as they deserve it. Nearly three years ago, Russia tried to secretly hire me to spread its propaganda, and I said no and blogged about it. Although this happened right on Capitol Hill, no Congressional Committee gave a rat’s rear about it. It wasn’t part of their agenda. When I go on Russian media I say the same thing as on U.S. media, though sometimes with a particular focus on criticizing Russia — a nation I’ve never been paid a dime by or worked for as a volunteer. Why is the U.S. Congress going after Jill Stein? Because no law-enforcement agency could do so, since no probable cause exists to believe she has committed any crime. Neither is there probable cause to believe she engaged in the non-criminal action of shaping her policy platform based on anything she learned from anyone Russian. She went to a Russian media event, something I’ve always refused to do because of people’s fear of just this sort of witch hunt. But she paid her own way. She didn’t take a dime from the Russian government. She didn’t even demand that the Russian government help block a UN resolution on illegal Israeli settlements, as President-elect Donald Trump’s campaign did in order to undermine the position of the U.S. President — something the U.S. Congress seems unconcerned by. Nor did she cut any sort of deal with the Russian government whatsoever. She just attended a public event with a bunch of people who didn’t even speak the same language as each other. Jill Stein ran the same sort of campaign with the same sort of platform that she had run in previous years, and that other Green Party candidates had run in years prior. She didn’t oppose bombing various countries or subsidizing fossil fuels or leaving people without health coverage because someone in Russia asked her to. She’d had the same positions for years. She didn’t oppose lesser evilism and believe the wisest electoral path to consist of running a better platform and voting your conscience because Putin gave her the idea. She’s thought that way for years. The reason Jill Stein matters to Russiagate is that it has gone on for a year without finding any solid way to blame Hillary Clinton’s campaign on Donald Trump. The original goal had been to distract the media from the Democrats’ rigging of their primary, and to claim that Russia had stolen and leaked documents to WikiLeaks. Those documents should have been public, as they revealed major abuses of the U.S. electoral system. But there’s no evidence they decided the election, and — even after a year of digging — no evidence that Russia leaked them. And at this point, there’s not much chance such evidence will ever be found. So, what’s needed is a change of subject, a new way in which Russia — not Hillary! — is to blame for a U.S. electoral system corrupt in dozens of ways from the start and contentedly staying that way. Lesser-evilists who blame “spoilers” would be all too happy to add “Russian collusion” to the rap sheet for Jill Stein, if only to finally justify having taught their kids the word “collusion.” But the idea is patently absurd, and zero evidence exists. However, Congress can harass anyone it chooses. Probably cause is not required. The reason Jill Stein should matter, and what we should be telling the millions of people who will now hear of her for the first time, is that she entered the U.S. presidential race with a decent and humane policy platform, by no means perfect, but light years ahead of those of the two least popular duopolistic political parties since the invention of polling. In a system with open debates and ballot access and a ban on bribery, fair funding and air time, automatic registration, verifiable counting, election-day holiday, ranked-choice voting, etc., etc., a candidate with a decent platform could run and win. Jill Stein ran in part, I think, so that people would simply hear about such a platform. Hers was a platform dramatically superior to that even of Senator Bernie Sanders. If you think free college is popular, you should see what young people think of free college and erasing all existing student debt. If single-payer healthcare with raised taxes (but net savings, if you make it to that fine print) excites voters, how do you think they’d respond to single-payer healthcare with no raised taxes? If fewer wars and asking Saudi Arabia to do more of the funding and fighting sounds promising, what would you say to no more wars, a 50 percent cut in the $1 trillion/year military spending, no more weapons sales to Saudi Arabia which is doing more than enough killing, thank you, no more free weapons for Israel either, and investment of some of the savings in a massive green energy jobs campaign producing a sustainable energy policy and a full-employment economy? Senator Bernie Sanders’ domestic proposals got millions excited, but the (unfair and misleading) criticism that he would raise taxes may have been a tragic flaw, and it’s one he opened himself up to by refusing to say that he’d cut the military. Stein proposed to cut at least half of the single biggest item in the discretionary budget, an item that takes up at least half of that budget: military spending. She’d have cut fossil fuel subsidies, as well, and expected savings to come from healthcare, including as a result of cutting pollution and improving food quality. But the big immediate item was the military. Cutting it is popular with voters, but not with Democratic or Republican presidential candidates. Sanders was labeled the Tax Man by the corporate media, while Jill Stein would have had to be attacked in a different way if she ever got mentioned. “Cutting the military budget is something that we can do right now,” Stein told me back during the campaign, “but we want to be clear that we are putting an end to wars for oil – period. And that is part of our core policy of a Green New Deal which creates an emergency program, establishing twenty million living wage jobs, full-time jobs, to green the economy, our energy, food, and transportation systems, building critical infrastructure, restoring ecosystems, etc. This is an emergency program that will get to 100 percent renewable energy by 2030. So this is a war-time-level mobilization in order to completely detoxify our energy system, and that means both nuclear and fossil fuel. In doing that, we deprive the empire of this major justification for wars and bases all around the world. So we want to be clear that that emphasis is gone, and goading the American public into war so as to feed our fossil fuel energy system – that ends and makes all the more essential and possible the major cutting of the military budget.” Which 50 percent of the military would Stein cut? Two places she named that she would start with (there would have to be much more) are foreign bases (she’d close them) and the U.S. nuclear weapons program. Would she unilaterally scrap U.S. nukes? I asked. “We don’t even need to do it unilaterally,” Stein said, “because the Russians have been begging to revive the process of nuclear disarmament, which the U.S., in its wisdom, undercut. … The Russians have been persistently trying to restore those nuclear talks for the purpose of disarmament. And that would be step one – is to make major reductions between the U.S. and Russia and then to convene a world forum to put an end to nuclear weapons altogether.” Those Russian positions were public, not secret. The “war on terror,” Stein pointed out, has only created more terror, while costing each U.S. household $75,000. “That’s not going to make people terribly enthusiastic for it, particularly when you point out that all this has done is create failed states, worse terrorist threat, whether you look at the Taliban, the globalization of al-Qaeda, the creation of ISIS. This has been an utter, unmitigated disaster, and the massive refugee crisis which is threatening to tear apart the European Union. This is absolutely unsustainable by any count.” To change U.S. foreign policy, Stein proposed financial reforms unheard of in any presidential debate. She suggested that military and other government contractors should face “pay to play protections” preventing them from “buying their way into policy.” Stein explained: “If you establish that anyone who contributes, who provides campaign contributions, or who lobbies is not eligible for contracting with the government, the minute you break that umbilical cord, then the industry loses its power to corral Congress and dictate foreign policy.” Stein said such protections could also block U.S. government facilitation of weapons sales to foreign buyers. That position is sure to endear Stein to Senatorial Inquisitors. “War profiteering should not be allowed,” Stein explained, “in the same way that energy profiteering is not compatible with our survival.” Ultimately, the big profits, Stein said, are in healthcare: “We spend a trillion dollars plus on the military industrial complex every year, but we spend three trillion and counting every year on the sick care system, which doesn’t make us well. It just enables us to tread water while we cope with these disastrous health impacts of the war economy and the fossil fuel economy.” Stein did not hesitate to highlight differences when I asked her about Bernie Sanders. She cited his “support, for example, for the F-35 weapons system which has been an incredible boondoggle.” While Sanders would keep killing with drones and “fighting terrorism,” Stein called “fighting terrorism” an oxymoron and pointed to counterproductive results: “Terrorism is a response to drones that sneak up on you in the night and to night raids and this is where we recruit and we enable ISIS and al-Qaeda to continue expanding … something Bernie hasn’t quite gotten straight by saying the solution here is to turn the Saudis loose; the Saudi’s need to ‘get their hands dirty’.” “We can actually begin to rein in the Saudis with a weapons embargo and by impounding their bank accounts,” Stein said, outlining a policy that could have saved countless lives now lost in Yemen. The same goes for Israel, she added, stressing the need to respect the law. Should the United States join the International Criminal Court, I asked. “Oh, my god, of course!” was Stein’s reply. “And the treaty on land mines?” “Of course! My god. Yes. … There are all sorts of treaties that are ready to move forward. In fact the Soviets and the Chinese have been prime movers in expansion of treaties to prohibit weapons in space and to establish the rule of law in cyberspace.” So, what would President Jill Stein do about ISIS? She answered that question with no hesitation: “Number 1: we don’t stop ISIS by doing more of what created ISIS. This is like the elephant in the room that none of the other presidential candidates are willing to acknowledge, even Rand Paul, I might say, surprisingly. So we don’t bomb ISIS and try to shoot ISIS out. We’ve got to stop ISIS in its tracks by ending the funding of ISIS and by ending the arming of ISIS. How do we do that? We do that with a weapons embargo. And so the U.S. can unilaterally move forward on that, but we need to sit down and talk with the Russians as well, and Putin tried to do this. “You know, Putin, our arch enemy Putin, was actually trying to create a peace process in Syria. … We need to begin talking with Russia and with other countries.” What Stein was proposing here, I should note, stands in stark contrast to Russia’s actual approach of bombing Syria. “We need to build on our relative détente with Iran to engage them, and we need to bring our allies into the process. Right now, the peace process, as I understand it, is held up by, guess who — Saudi Arabia, who wants to bring in known terrorist groups as the representatives of the opposition. The Saudis should not be defining the way forward here … Our ally Turkey needs to understand that their membership in NATO or their position with the U.S. and other allies around the world should not be taken for granted, and that they cannot be in the business either of funding ISIS and related groups through the purchase of their oil [or of] shipping weapons. They also need to close down their border to the movement of the militias.” Stein was sounding an awful lot like the leader of the Labour Party in Britain, Jeremy Corbyn, and I asked her about him. “I have already met with Jeremy Corbyn,” she said, (Egad! Will there be hearings?!) “when I was in Paris for the climate talks, … and we had a surprising amount of time to talk and we agreed completely on collaborating on this ‘peace offensive,’ which is the name we have given to our solution to the problem of ISIS. Peace is not passive. We need an active, interventionist program based on peace which means to stop the flow or arms and money, etc. So, we’ve already agreed that we see eye-to-eye on foreign policy.” But Corbyn is in office with a shot at becoming prime minister. With the U.S. public completely sold on the hopelessness of third-party bids, at least by non-multi-billionaires, what was Stein’s plan for actually becoming president? “First of all,” she said, “there are 43 million young people and not-so-young people who are trapped in debt, in student debt. My campaign is the only campaign that will be on the ballot that will abolish student debt. We did it for the bankers who plunged us into this economic crisis that persists in spite of what they say. And they did that by way of their waste, fraud, and abuse. Yet we bailed them out to the tune of $16 trillion and counting. “So, isn’t it about time we bail out the victims of that waste, fraud, and abuse — the young people of this country whose leadership and whose civic engagement is essential for blazing the trail to our future? It has always required a fresh generation to re-envision, you know, what our future looks like. So, we need to bail out the young people, for their benefit and for ours. That can be done through another quantitative easing which is relatively simple, does not cost us, essentially expands the money supply in a way that works as a stimulus to the economy, unlike the bailout that they provided to Wall Street which has only created a stimulus for more reckless gambling – waste, fraud, and abuse. … I have yet to find a young person in debt who doesn’t become a missionary for our campaign the minute they learn that we will cancel their debt. … The 43 million young people – that is a plurality of the vote. In a three-way race, that’s enough to win the vote.” Stein also pointed to 25 million Latinos who, she said, “have learned that the Democrats are the party of deportation, of night raids, and of detention, of refugees who are fleeing a crisis in their home countries that we created. How? Through NAFTA, though illegal coups and CIA-sponsored regime changes, and through the drug wars. … If people want to fix the immigration problem, the answer is, ‘Stop causing it.’” But would Stein be in the debates for the general election? “In my experience,” she told me, “all you have to do is have a real conversation, have an open mic, a true presidential debate that actually allows presidential candidates to debate who have broad enough support that they are on the ballot for a majority of Americans and could numerically win the election. We are challenging the Commission on Presidential Debates in court and we will be challenging them soon with a direct action campaign, so stay tuned, because the American public deserves to know about the issues. The American public deserves the right to vote. And they have a right to know who they can vote for and what they are voting about.” -- David Swanson is an author, activist, journalist, and radio host. He is director of WorldBeyondWar.org and campaign coordinator for RootsAction.org. Swanson's books include War Is A Lie. He blogs at DavidSwanson.org and WarIsACrime.org. He hosts Talk Nation Radio. He is a 2015, 2016, 2017 Nobel Peace Prize Nominee. Longer bio and photos and videos here. Follow him on Twitter: @davidcnswanson and FaceBook, and sign up for: Activist alerts. Articles. David Swanson news. World Beyond War news. Charlottesville news. _______________________________________________ ufpj-activist mailing list Post: ufpj-activist at lists.mayfirst.org List info: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/listinfo/ufpj-activist To Unsubscribe Send email to: ufpj-activist-unsubscribe at lists.mayfirst.org Or visit: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/options/ufpj-activist/brussel%40illinois.edu You are subscribed as: brussel at illinois.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Dec 20 09:11:34 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 09:11:34 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] French support funding Islamic State terrorists exposed Message-ID: * Print * Leaflet * Feedback * Share » Lafarge affair exposes French ruling elite’s funding of Islamic State terrorists By Francis Dubois and Alex Lantier 20 December 2017 The investigation into the financing of the Islamic State (IS) terrorist militia by construction firm Lafarge-Holcim exposes the fraud of the so-called “war on terror” waged by France and its NATO allies. In fact, over five years, a multi-billion-dollar firm that leads the CAC-40 French stock exchange deliberately funded a terrorist militia that carried out attacks across Europe and in France. This directly raises the role of the state and the Socialist Party (PS) government of former President François Hollande. It reacted to the deadly terror attacks of January and November 2015 in France by imposing a state of emergency and promoting the neo-fascist National Front (FN), inviting its leader Marine Le Pen to the Elysée Palace. It also used the state of emergency as a pretext to brutally repress protests against its anti-worker labor law—claiming that protests undermined the police work of the “war on terror” and the unification of France in a struggle against Islamism. At that time—according to investigations of six Lafarge executives in the last two weeks, including ex-CEO Bruno Lafont and general manager Eric Olsen—Lafarge was financing the very terror militias in Syria whose attacks were cited as a reason to impose the state of emergency. Le Monde called the investigation of Lafarge executives “a political thunderbolt,” adding: “This is the first time a CAC-40 CEO has been implicated in terrorist activity.” Moreover, Lafarge resorted to lies and the production of false documents to justify its financing of terror groups. The National Service of Judiciary Customs (SNDJ), who carried out the questioning of Lafarge executives that led to their indictment, concluded that the company’s French management “allowed for these financial transfers by creating false accounting documents.” The evidence provided by Lafarge itself refutes its alibi—the claim that it paid off the terror groups only because IS was threatening a Lafarge cement factory located near Raqqa, the IS stronghold in Syria. A report by London-based auditor PriceWaterhouseCoopers, commissioned by Lafarge, found that Lafarge paid $13 million to various Islamist militias in Syria from 2011 to 2015. This financing went on into 2015, well after Lafarge closed its Raqqa cement factory in September 2014. According to lawyers for Sherpa—the NGO that first brought a suit in 2016 over this issue for “endangerment of human life,” and thus triggered an investigation for “financing a terrorist entity” by three anti-terror or financial judges in the Paris prosecutor’s office—most of this money went directly or indirectly to IS. Another report by US law firm Baker McKenzie, also commissioned by Lafarge, found that Lafarge’s Syrian subsidiary alone paid nearly $5.6 million to various terror militias, including $500,000 to IS. The son of former Syrian Defense Minister Firas Tlass reportedly served as the intermediary for the payments. Thus, while the French political establishment was debating in 2014 or 2015 whether to bomb IS in Syria, Lafarge was still financing the terror group. Hollande ultimately gave the order to bomb IS positions in Syria after the 13 November 2015 attacks. Until then, France only bombed IS positions in Iraq, leaving open the possibility of profiting from IS actions in Syria as part of its war for regime change in that country. What emerges from this inquiry is not the image of a company that stayed in Syria, as its executives claimed, to represent France or to extract profits from France’s largest non-oil-related investment in the Middle East, and therefore had to pay protection money to IS. Rather, a deliberate decision was taken to finance organizations that the PS government was at the time presenting as legitimate allies of convenience in its war, carried out with the aid of Washington and the other NATO powers, to topple the Syrian government. A bitter battle is proceeding inside official circles in France over this scandal, which financial and judicial circles in the US and UK are also clearly following closely. This week, Sherpa asked the prosecutor’s office to launch an inquiry for obstruction of justice, accusing Lafarge of having aimed to “buy the silence” of its six indicted executives and to “get ahead of the interrogations that they might be subjected to.” The NGO repeated its demand that the investigation not concentrate only on Lafarge, but also reveal the role of French state authorities at the time. Its spokesmen criticized “the nervousness, the complacency, or even the complicity” of these authorities. Its lawyer, Marie Dosé, asked: “Who can guarantee that in the meantime, part of the money paid to IS did not ultimately go to finance a terror attack in France?” In fact, the Lafarge affair raises not only the role of France but of all the major NATO imperialist powers, including the United States. Starting in 2011, these powers set up with the Persian Gulf oil sheikdoms networks to arm and finance the Syrian terror groups to the tune, ultimately, of billions of dollars. This has devastated Syria, claimed hundreds of thousands of lives, and forced over 10 million Syrians to flee their homes. The media and political authorities in the NATO countries tried to downplay as much as possible the politically criminal character of this war—and in particular the fact, admitted by US officials in 2012, that NATO’s allies in Syria were terror militias tied to Al Qaeda. The Lafarge affair also highlights the reactionary and lying role of petty-bourgeois pseudo-left groups like France’s New Anti-capitalist Party, who were supporters and accomplices of the war. They shamelessly presented Islamist militias in Syria as products of a mass popular uprising. As the CAC-40 financed various Islamist militias on the ground in Syria, a former French colony, these groups took up the task of promoting the lie that this was a Syrian democratic revolution. Under these conditions, the question must be asked: why are PS officials not on trial, starting with former President Hollande himself? Hollande took the extraordinary step in 2012 to recognize the Islamist militias in Syria as that country’s legitimate government. A document issued by Sherpa this October has in fact demanded that French ambassadors to Syria and former PS Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius be investigated. However, French media are largely downplaying this central aspect of the affair. Lafarge’s actions in Syria also underscore the politically illegitimate and fraudulent character of the state of emergency, whose anti-democratic provisions President Emmanuel Macron has now adopted permanently as law by passing his anti-terror legislation. While imperialism financed IS terrorists, it used their crimes in Europe to justify repressing constitutionally-protected protests by workers and youth against attempts to suppress their social and democratic rights, acquired over generations of struggle by the working class. WSWS.ORG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 21 13:24:16 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 13:24:16 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] US Congress targeting the Green Party candidate Message-ID: Do we laugh at the absurdity, or cry at the McCarthyite tactics being utilized. Those of us who are Greens, should we be worried that we too will be targets? At this suggestion I do laugh, but this action against Jill does prove the insanity of Russiagate. * » US Congress targets Green Party candidate Jill Stein over allegations of collusion with Russia By Trévon Austin 21 December 2017 On Monday, Senate Intelligence Committee chairman Richard Burr said his committee began investigating Jill Stein, the Green Party’s presidential nominee in the 2016 election, in relation to evidence of alleged conspiracy or “meddling” by Russia. Stein said she was contacted by the committee with requests for information, including emails. The targeting of Stein is a major intensification of the anti-Russia witch hunt, which, in addition to fighting out factional disputes within the ruling elite, is aimed ultimately at domestic political opposition within the United States. For over a year, Democrats have argued that Jill Stein’s campaign assisted Trump’s campaign by diverting support and votes away from Hillary Clinton, pointing to the fact that Trump’s margin of victory was smaller than Jill Stein’s total number of votes in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. This is now being used to suggest that Stein was in cahoots with Russian officials. Mark Warner, the Committee’s top-ranking Democrat, laid out the reactionary motives for investigating Stein’s campaign. “I will point out though that Ms. Stein was at the infamous dinner that included General Flynn and Vladimir Putin, and we do know that she has very complimentary things to say about Julian Assange, who certainly was being used by the Russians to take some of the hacked information and release it into our political system,” he said. In 2015, Stein attended a dinner celebrating the tenth anniversary of RT, the Russia-based news organization. The event has been used as a pretext by the committee to allege possible collusion between Stein and the Kremlin. Photographs from the dinner show Stein sitting at a table with President Vladimir Putin and other prominent Russian officials. Michael Flynn, Trump’s former national security advisor who is now seeking a plea deal in the investigation of alleged Russian interference in the election, was seen sitting at the same table. Assange attended the Green Party’s 2016 convention via Skype to discuss the leaked Democratic National Committee emails that suggested corruption within the Democratic Primary. Stein praised WikiLeaks and Assange, calling him a hero for publishing the emails. In a statement released Monday, Stein said she attended the 2015 dinner in hopes of “reaching an international audience and Russian officials with a message of Middle East peace, diplomacy, and cooperation against the urgent threat of climate change.” The fact that RT hosted the Green Party’s 2016 Presidential debate, and has interviewed Stein multiple times, is also being used to suggest collusion between Stein and the Russian state. Stein said she plans to cooperate with the committee’s requests, but warned against “the politicization, sensationalism and collapse of journalistic standards that has plagued media coverage of the investigation.” In January, the Director of National Intelligence released a report on “Russian intervention” in the 2016 election, declaring RT to be an arm of the Kremlin aimed at “sowing divisions” among the American people. Various actions have since been taken against the news organization, including forced registration under the Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA), that set a dangerous precedent for the freedom of speech and press in the United States. The DNI report alleged that “RT broadcast, hosted, and advertised third-party candidate debates and ran reporting supportive of the political agenda of these candidates. The RT hosts asserted that the US two-party system does not represent the views of at least one-third of the population and is a ‘sham.’” These statements make clear the antidemocratic political motivations behind the censorship of RT and the investigation of Stein. Jesse Ferguson, a former Clinton campaign spokesman, argued that Americans should know if a candidate was used by Russia to divert votes away from Clinton. “Russian operatives were not promoting Jill Stein because they thought she would win,” he said. “They were promoting her because they thought it would hurt Hillary Clinton and help Donald Trump.” Zac Petkanas, former rapid response director for the Clinton campaign, typed, “Jill Stein is a Russian agent” eight times in a single tweet. He continued in another thread to say that the Senate’s probe mattered because “she [Stein] played a big role in electing Putin’s favorite candidate: Donald Trump.” Jill Stein has denounced these allegations. In a podcast on The Intercept, she said that there wasn’t any substantial conversation at the table where she was seen with Putin and Flynn because of language barriers. She was not paid for attending the event, and only gave a speech about nuclear disarmament and pursuing peace instead of war. The Green Party is a bourgeois party that poses no serious threat to the political establishment. But the campaign to link Stein to “Russian meddling” sets a dangerous precedent for all critics of the US government. The return of McCarthyism is centered on anti-Russian hysteria, but is part of a broader campaign to censor political opposition in the face of mass social unrest. The United States is the world’s wealthiest country, yet it has the highest levels of social inequality in the developed world. More than 40 million Americans, or 14.5 percent, live in poverty. Congress has passed a tax plan that will only further destroy the conditions of the working class by funneling trillions of dollars to the ultra-wealthy and slashing funding to social programs. What the two big-business parties fear most is the development of a mass movement against the capitalist system. They aim to combat this threat by censoring the Internet, criminalizing political dissent, and preventing the free exchange of ideas. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Thu Dec 21 14:58:59 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 14:58:59 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?FW=3A_Trump=E2=80=99s_National_Security?= =?utf-8?q?_Strategy=3A_More_unlimited_imperialism!_=7C_Intrepid_Report=2E?= =?utf-8?q?com?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 8:57 AM To: Boyle, Francis A Subject: Trump’s National Security Strategy: More unlimited imperialism! | Intrepid Report.com Trump’s National Security Strategy: More unlimited imperialism! | Intrepid Report.com http://www.intrepidreport.com/archives/22892 Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Thu Dec 21 14:58:59 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 14:58:59 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?FW=3A_Trump=E2=80=99s_National_Security?= =?utf-8?q?_Strategy=3A_More_unlimited_imperialism!_=7C_Intrepid_Report=2E?= =?utf-8?q?com?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 8:57 AM To: Boyle, Francis A Subject: Trump’s National Security Strategy: More unlimited imperialism! | Intrepid Report.com Trump’s National Security Strategy: More unlimited imperialism! | Intrepid Report.com http://www.intrepidreport.com/archives/22892 Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From futureup2us at gmail.com Thu Dec 21 15:09:28 2017 From: futureup2us at gmail.com (Jay Becker) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 09:09:28 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Trump=E2=80=99s_National_Security_Strat?= =?utf-8?q?egy=3A_More_unlimited_imperialism!_=7C_Intrepid_Report=2Ecom?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6E047E95-726F-4A13-A4D9-E0AD08C38839@gmail.com> Thanks - sharing! Jay > On Dec 21, 2017, at 08:58, Boyle, Francis A wrote: > > > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign, IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > From: Boyle, Francis A > Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 8:57 AM > To: Boyle, Francis A > > Subject: Trump’s National Security Strategy: More unlimited imperialism! | Intrepid Report.com > > Trump’s National Security Strategy: More unlimited imperialism! | Intrepid Report.com > > > http://www.intrepidreport.com/archives/22892 > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From futureup2us at gmail.com Thu Dec 21 15:09:28 2017 From: futureup2us at gmail.com (Jay Becker) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 09:09:28 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Trump=E2=80=99s_National_Security_Strat?= =?utf-8?q?egy=3A_More_unlimited_imperialism!_=7C_Intrepid_Report=2Ecom?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6E047E95-726F-4A13-A4D9-E0AD08C38839@gmail.com> Thanks - sharing! Jay > On Dec 21, 2017, at 08:58, Boyle, Francis A wrote: > > > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign, IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > From: Boyle, Francis A > Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 8:57 AM > To: Boyle, Francis A > > Subject: Trump’s National Security Strategy: More unlimited imperialism! | Intrepid Report.com > > Trump’s National Security Strategy: More unlimited imperialism! | Intrepid Report.com > > > http://www.intrepidreport.com/archives/22892 > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Thu Dec 21 15:41:46 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 15:41:46 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Trump=E2=80=99s_National_Security_Strat?= =?utf-8?q?egy=3A_More_unlimited_imperialism!_=7C_Intrepid_Report=2Ecom?= In-Reply-To: <6E047E95-726F-4A13-A4D9-E0AD08C38839@gmail.com> References: <6E047E95-726F-4A13-A4D9-E0AD08C38839@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks. According to Breitbart, Trump’s NSS was drafted by NSC Member Nadia Schadlow. She has a PHD from Nitze/SAIS/John Hopkins. They are all Die-Hard NeoConners there. Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Jay Becker [mailto:futureup2us at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 9:09 AM To: Boyle, Francis A Cc: David Green ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; sherwoodross10 at gmail.com; peace-discuss at anti-war.net; C. G. ESTABROOK ; a-fields at uiuc.edu; Joe Lauria ; Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net; Szoke, Ron ; Arlene Hickory ; Karen Aram ; abass10 at gmail.com; mickalideh at gmail.com; Lina Thorne ; chicago at worldcantwait.net; David Johnson ; Mildred O'brien ; C G Estabrook Subject: Re: Trump’s National Security Strategy: More unlimited imperialism! | Intrepid Report.com Thanks - sharing! Jay On Dec 21, 2017, at 08:58, Boyle, Francis A > wrote: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 8:57 AM To: Boyle, Francis A > Subject: Trump’s National Security Strategy: More unlimited imperialism! | Intrepid Report.com Trump’s National Security Strategy: More unlimited imperialism! | Intrepid Report.com http://www.intrepidreport.com/archives/22892 Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Thu Dec 21 15:41:46 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 15:41:46 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Trump=E2=80=99s_National_Security_Strat?= =?utf-8?q?egy=3A_More_unlimited_imperialism!_=7C_Intrepid_Report=2Ecom?= In-Reply-To: <6E047E95-726F-4A13-A4D9-E0AD08C38839@gmail.com> References: <6E047E95-726F-4A13-A4D9-E0AD08C38839@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks. According to Breitbart, Trump’s NSS was drafted by NSC Member Nadia Schadlow. She has a PHD from Nitze/SAIS/John Hopkins. They are all Die-Hard NeoConners there. Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Jay Becker [mailto:futureup2us at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 9:09 AM To: Boyle, Francis A Cc: David Green ; Miller, Joseph Thomas ; sherwoodross10 at gmail.com; peace-discuss at anti-war.net; C. G. ESTABROOK ; a-fields at uiuc.edu; Joe Lauria ; Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; peace-discuss-request at lists.chambana.net; Szoke, Ron ; Arlene Hickory ; Karen Aram ; abass10 at gmail.com; mickalideh at gmail.com; Lina Thorne ; chicago at worldcantwait.net; David Johnson ; Mildred O'brien ; C G Estabrook Subject: Re: Trump’s National Security Strategy: More unlimited imperialism! | Intrepid Report.com Thanks - sharing! Jay On Dec 21, 2017, at 08:58, Boyle, Francis A > wrote: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 8:57 AM To: Boyle, Francis A > Subject: Trump’s National Security Strategy: More unlimited imperialism! | Intrepid Report.com Trump’s National Security Strategy: More unlimited imperialism! | Intrepid Report.com http://www.intrepidreport.com/archives/22892 Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 21 16:05:46 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 16:05:46 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_Only_10_Days_Left_for_Registrati?= =?utf-8?q?on_=E2=80=94_Please_Join_Our_Conference?= References: Message-ID: Reply-To: No Bases List > ONLY 10 DAYS LEFT! PLEASE REGISTER TO ATTEND [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/ccd625b69dbee766fcef0d707/images/134bb23c-8e0a-4bdc-9355-d038f70ccd28.jpg] Conference on U.S. Foreign Military Bases January 12 - 14, 2018, University of Baltimore Learning Commons Town Hall, Baltimore, Maryland Organized by: Coalition Against U.S. Foreign Military Bases Fourteen prominent peace, justice and environmental organizations in the United States are collectively organizing a 3-day national conference on U.S. Foreign Military Bases on January 12-14, 2018, at the University of Baltimore, Maryland. CONFERENCE ENDORSERS: • Alliance for Democracy Council • Alliance for Global Justice • Bangladesh Bar Council • Black Alliance for Peace • Canadian Peace Congress • CODEPINK • Environmentalists Against War • Gaza Freedom Flotilla Coalition • Global Network Against Weapons and Nuclear Power in Space • Greater Brunswick PeaceWorks • International Action Center • Labor Fightback Network • Liberty Tree Foundation • MLK Justice Coalition • Nuclear Age Peace Foundation • Pax Christi Baltimore • PCUSA • Popular Resistance • United For Peace and Justice (UFPJ) • United National Antiwar Coalition • Upstate (NY) Drone Action • U.S. Peace Council • Veterans For Peace • War Resisters League • Women's International League for Peace and Freedom—U.S. Section • World Beyond War • World Peace Council You can join and support this Conference by: 1. Registering and attending the Conference. 2. Having your organization endorse the Conference. 3. Placing an ad or a solidarity message from your group in the Conference Journal. Click Here for Conference Details, Registration and Endorsement [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/ccd625b69dbee766fcef0d707/_compresseds/2c648a7e-1ee3-4ec2-9495-bdf40b3baddb.jpg] Want to change how you receive these emails? You can update your preferences or unsubscribe from this list. This email was sent to karenaram at hotmail.com why did I get this? unsubscribe from this list update subscription preferences Gabbard Petition · P.O. Box 8693 · Haledon, Nj 07538 · USA [Email Marketing Powered by MailChimp] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davegreen84 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 21 16:44:14 2017 From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 16:44:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] A prescient blast from the past References: <639654590.2318483.1513874654137.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <639654590.2318483.1513874654137@mail.yahoo.com> - www.counterpunch.org - https://www.counterpunch.org - The Death of American Politics Posted By ADRIAN KUZMINSKI On August 18, 2004 John Kerry’s pro-Wall Street, pro-war, anti-labor, anti-middle class, right-wing presidential campaign may be the final nail in the coffin of the American political process. The shutdown of American politics, now complete, has long been in the making, going back at least to the trainwreck of the Democratic Party over Vietnam at its 1968 national convention. Up until then, the Democratic Party stood clearly if imperfectly for greater social justice, as manifest in the civil rights and social legislation of Lyndon Johnson’s Great Society, and the New Deal before that, and it commanded the majoritarian electoral power necessary to deliver the goods. The crisis of Vietnam shattered the coalition of neo-imperialist cold warriors and social activists which had sustained the Democratic Party for a generation after World War II. In the McGovern campaign in 1972, the social activist wing seized control of a shrunken party while the neo-imperialists and cold warriors began their drift to the right. McGovern’s humiliating defeat confirmed the new minority status of the Democratic Party. The political vacuum was filled by a reenergized conservative movement focusing on patriotism,’free enterprise,’ and a militarily reassertive America. Shocked by the Vietnam defeat and the ‘excesses’ of the counterculture of the 60s, wealthy political conservatives like Richard Mellon Scaife, Lynde and Harry Bradley, John Olin, Joseph Coors, David and Charles Koch and others, funded a series of foundations, publications, university chairs, and media outlets to promote the free enterprise system, corporate power, and renewed American leadership in the world. (Cf. “Tentacles of Rage: The Republican Propaganda Mill, a Brief History,” by Lewis H. Lapham, HARPERS, September, 2004) As a result, the Heritage Foundation, the American Enterprise Institute, the Cato Institute, the Howard Pew Freedom Trust, the Business Roundtable, and later, entities like Fox News and conservative talk radio, succeeded in redefining political discourse in America in favor of the conservative agenda. The alliance with religious fundamentalists — who were left out of the progressive New Deal-Great Society coalition — beginning with Jerry Falwell and Pat Robinson, ensured a grassroots base for corporate power and an uncritical sympathy for right-wing Israeli governments. At the same time, southern voters (many of then fundamentalists) alienated by the civil rights commitments of the old Democratic party, moved into the Republican Party, a development heralded by Nixon’s southern electoral strategy. The minority status of the Democratic Party was disguised by its lingering control of Congress (until 1994) and the fluke election (thanks to Ross Perot) of Bill Clinton. Social activists and progressives of various sorts remained the party’s base, even as party leaders, embodied in the Democratic Leadership Council, sensing the limited electoral appeal of the progressive agenda, steadily drifted to the right. Their failure to rearticulate a compelling vision of social justice and democracy sealed the party’s fate. Conservative attacks on ‘big government,’ and their promotion of ‘deregulation’ not only of much of the economy but of campaign financing, solidified the corruption of the political process. As early as the Carter years, conservatives captured the leadership of the Democratic as well as the Republican parties, and created the two-party, right-wing duopoly which now confronts us. The right-wing duopoly is now virtually impervious to challenge, as the careers of figures as diverse as Ralph Nader, Pat Buchanan, Howard Dean, and Denis Kucinich demonstrate. Kerry’s right-wing campaign for president, echoing the exploitative domestic and aggressive foreign policies of Bush, confirms the end of meaningful political discourse in the United States. There are simply no remaining effective instruments of political action available to the restless masses, who are probably a majority of the country, and most of whom, as a result, no longer participate in the political process at all. Voting for Kerry is marginally better than voting for Bush, or wasting a vote for Nader. But it’s rather like voting for Marius and Caesar (the Democrats) rather than Sulla and Pompey (the Republicans). A more benevolent despot is always better than a less benevolent one, but despotism it remains all the same. Can we pretend otherwise any longer? What is likely is the continued consolidation of the right-wing duopoly, most evident in the erosion of civil liberties and the war on terrorism. Somewhere along the line, America lost its political freedom without even realizing it. The last meaningful opposition to the duopoly was perhaps Ross Perot’s presidential candidacy in 1992. His presence in the presidential debates and his subsequent garnering of almost twenty percent of the vote — in spite of dropping out of the race and then reentering it — may be the most underappreciated event in recent American political history. Perot was no social activist liberal, but he showed what an open political process might achieve. Afterward, the duopoly regrouped and created a rigged, ‘bi-partisan,’ corporate-sponsored debate commission dedicated to making sure that no third party candidate would ever again enjoy such exposure to the voters. The coming darkness is the eclipse of American political freedom and the unchecked reign of a venal, arrogant, and ignorant ruling class. Onerous as its depredations at home are likely to be, even more omnious is its immoral, illegal, and criminal policy of preemptive war abroad — a policy fully endorsed by Kerry. There is no end to the war on terrorism, since a terrorist is increasingly defined as anyone who opposes the duopoly at home or abroad. It has always been madness to try to remould the world in one’s image, as we see most recently in the war in Iraq, but it is a vastly greater madness in a nuclear age. The lesson of 9/11 was that resentments born of decades if not centuries of perceived wrongs will find their target if those wrongs are not addressed. The ultimate equalizer, in our time, is the nuclear bomb and this the terrorists will sooner or later obtain and use if they continue to be provoked. This will be the final, bitter fruit of the loss of our political freedom, and it will be made the ultimate justification for the tyranny now established upon us. In a dark age, it is the responsibility of those who care about things like political freedom and democracy to struggle to ensure that those values somehow survive and are transmitted to future generations, even if they can no longer play an effective public role, much as the monks of the middle ages preserved the learning of antiquity for a better day. That day will come, but likely not in our time. ADRIAN KUZMINSKI is Research Scholar in Philosophy at Hartwick College in Oneonta, NY, and a former official of the Green Party in New York State. He can be reached at adrian at clarityconnect.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davegreen84 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 21 16:49:36 2017 From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 16:49:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] A cogent blast from the present References: <2083319590.2319849.1513874976693.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2083319590.2319849.1513874976693@mail.yahoo.com> - www.counterpunch.org - https://www.counterpunch.org - The Counter-Revolution Posted By ADRIAN KUZMINSKI On December 20, 2017 The polarization of our country isn’t between left and right, liberal and conservative, Democrat and Republican. It’s between richer and poorer, elitists and proletarians, over-educated and under-educated, globalists and localists. The line between the two is a shifting one, depending on where you live, but the consistent difference is the ability to participate successfully in the economy.  Successful participants are able, without onerous labor, to accumulate sufficient income, assets, and benefits to provide for security for themselves and family–a comfortable home, useful education, vacations and travel, health care, a few luxuries, and comfortable retirement. This was the reality once made possible for most middle-class Americans by competent public education and high-paying industrial jobs. Those days are long gone. Fewer and fewer people can maintain an upwardly mobile life-style; more and more are falling behind. A recent survey conducted by the Federal Reserve revealed that half of Americans (49%) could not come up with $400 within 24 hours. How this shift to relative poverty happened over a generation is perhaps the central story of our time. A series of political decisions beginning in the 1970s successfully dismantled the middle-class state in favor of the plutocratic oligarchy under which we now live. Deregulation began under Jimmy Carter; Reagan busted unions and ingrained a hatred of “big government;” the Bushes and Clinton gutted welfare programs, repealed long-standing financial regulations, like the Glass-Stegal Act, and promoted globalization after the fall of the Soviet Union; Obama pursued identity politics while failing to reform Wall Street after the 2008 crash; Trump has focused on tax cuts for the rich (justified by trickle-dow economics) while dismissing scientific standards of truth and playing on racial and xenophobic fears. Most of this can be understood as a reaction to the revolutionary politics of the 1960s. The young generation of the time, dismayed by the injustice of the Vietnam War and unaccountable corporate-military power evident the wake of the Kennedy assassination, threatened, for a time, to overthrow the social and political norms of American society. Blacks in inner cities, inspired by the civil rights movement, rose up in unprecedented revolt in a cry for social justice, contributing to the chaos. These disruptions were not to be tolerated. Wealthy establishment leaders put their leads together and launched a top-down counter-revolution. They funded think-tanks, conservative media, and right wing politicians–most of whom preached a libertarian politics derived from Friedrich Hayek and Ayn Rand. The catchword was “freedom” and the idea was to remove all impediments to making or sharing money. Crucial to their success was the co-optation of the Democratic party leadership, beginning with the Bill Clinton and the Democratic Leadership Council. With the Democrats firmly on board, and with financial deregulation and globalization in the works, the counter-revolution swept all before it. So here we are. Social justice has been reduced to identity politics, with economic justice left in the dustbin of history. Progressives on the political fringe are left begging for crumbs from the corporate table that will never come under the current dispensation: free college education, universal health care. The consolation prize is the apparent victory of gender politics in a now endless series of media exposes of powerful men abusing women–a victory perilously vulnerable to backlash. The upshot is that our current politics is largely irrelevant. Odious and horrific as Trump may be, and he is, the liberal opposition lost most of its credibility when it sold out to the counter-revolution. Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren have little hope of restoring the old prosperity of the middle class. Globalization and a financialized economy with little benefit for ordinary people remains the order of the day. Those benefiting from the status quo, even marginally, are unlikely to champion real reform. The only hope, if this analysis makes any sense, lies with the poorer, under-educated, proletarian localists. So far they have been enthralled by Trumpian rhetoric, the only blunt instrument they’ve been offered with which to beat up the establishment. But it’s not working for them. Trump is not a globalist, but he is committed to a financialized, growth-dependent  economy. The problem is that trickle-down economics–global or local–isn’t going to work any more. Pollution, climate change, resource depletion, technology, population increase–all these conspire to frustrate future economic growth and to render increasing numbers economically irrelevant. Trumpian economics is bound to turn sour. When it does his constituency will be up for grabs. Its members have been fed the red meat of racism , xenophobia, and sexism. Can they rise above prejudices which they may share, but which have also been foisted upon them? If globalization has a virtue, it’s multi-culturalism–a universal vision of humanity. Can multi-culturalism survive the end of globalization? What sources can inform a generosity of spirit for proletarian localists? Will they be kind to their elitist neighbors, or will they persecute them? These are the questions of our time. Article printed from www.counterpunch.org: https://www.counterpunch.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 21 18:16:36 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 18:16:36 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] A cogent blast from the present In-Reply-To: <2083319590.2319849.1513874976693@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2083319590.2319849.1513874976693.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2083319590.2319849.1513874976693@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Good article David, even better than the previous one by the same author, in 2004. Sadly, this one is even better. Sadly, because the author clearly foresaw all that was to come, as have others like Chomsky, Hedges, etc. and now, its here. Did the young socialists at Saturday’s rally, really offer hope? Or will they now be coopted given the tax increase will no longer impact grad students? I hope not as they are the future. Will the poor and disenfranchised, proletariats, rise up against the government oligarchs, elites and corporations? And if they do, will it be fruitful, or merely bloody, given our current militarized police forces across the nation. The law of Passe Komatas, is no more. As time goes by there will be more homeless, more ill, people dying from lack of healthcare, with more diseases flourishing as a result of environmental degradation, and deregulations. In the meantime, war, death and destruction continues unabated across the globe. On Dec 21, 2017, at 08:49, David Green via Peace-discuss > wrote: - www.counterpunch.org - https://www.counterpunch.org - The Counter-Revolution Posted By ADRIAN KUZMINSKI On December 20, 2017 The polarization of our country isn’t between left and right, liberal and conservative, Democrat and Republican. It’s between richer and poorer, elitists and proletarians, over-educated and under-educated, globalists and localists. The line between the two is a shifting one, depending on where you live, but the consistent difference is the ability to participate successfully in the economy. Successful participants are able, without onerous labor, to accumulate sufficient income, assets, and benefits to provide for security for themselves and family–a comfortable home, useful education, vacations and travel, health care, a few luxuries, and comfortable retirement. This was the reality once made possible for most middle-class Americans by competent public education and high-paying industrial jobs. Those days are long gone. Fewer and fewer people can maintain an upwardly mobile life-style; more and more are falling behind. A recent survey conducted by the Federal Reserve revealed that half of Americans (49%) could not come up with $400 within 24 hours. How this shift to relative poverty happened over a generation is perhaps the central story of our time. A series of political decisions beginning in the 1970s successfully dismantled the middle-class state in favor of the plutocratic oligarchy under which we now live. Deregulation began under Jimmy Carter; Reagan busted unions and ingrained a hatred of “big government;” the Bushes and Clinton gutted welfare programs, repealed long-standing financial regulations, like the Glass-Stegal Act, and promoted globalization after the fall of the Soviet Union; Obama pursued identity politics while failing to reform Wall Street after the 2008 crash; Trump has focused on tax cuts for the rich (justified by trickle-dow economics) while dismissing scientific standards of truth and playing on racial and xenophobic fears. Most of this can be understood as a reaction to the revolutionary politics of the 1960s. The young generation of the time, dismayed by the injustice of the Vietnam War and unaccountable corporate-military power evident the wake of the Kennedy assassination, threatened, for a time, to overthrow the social and political norms of American society. Blacks in inner cities, inspired by the civil rights movement, rose up in unprecedented revolt in a cry for social justice, contributing to the chaos. These disruptions were not to be tolerated. Wealthy establishment leaders put their leads together and launched a top-down counter-revolution. They funded think-tanks, conservative media, and right wing politicians–most of whom preached a libertarian politics derived from Friedrich Hayek and Ayn Rand. The catchword was “freedom” and the idea was to remove all impediments to making or sharing money. Crucial to their success was the co-optation of the Democratic party leadership, beginning with the Bill Clinton and the Democratic Leadership Council. With the Democrats firmly on board, and with financial deregulation and globalization in the works, the counter-revolution swept all before it. So here we are. Social justice has been reduced to identity politics, with economic justice left in the dustbin of history. Progressives on the political fringe are left begging for crumbs from the corporate table that will never come under the current dispensation: free college education, universal health care. The consolation prize is the apparent victory of gender politics in a now endless series of media exposes of powerful men abusing women–a victory perilously vulnerable to backlash. The upshot is that our current politics is largely irrelevant. Odious and horrific as Trump may be, and he is, the liberal opposition lost most of its credibility when it sold out to the counter-revolution. Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren have little hope of restoring the old prosperity of the middle class. Globalization and a financialized economy with little benefit for ordinary people remains the order of the day. Those benefiting from the status quo, even marginally, are unlikely to champion real reform. The only hope, if this analysis makes any sense, lies with the poorer, under-educated, proletarian localists. So far they have been enthralled by Trumpian rhetoric, the only blunt instrument they’ve been offered with which to beat up the establishment. But it’s not working for them. Trump is not a globalist, but he is committed to a financialized, growth-dependent economy. The problem is that trickle-down economics–global or local–isn’t going to work any more. Pollution, climate change, resource depletion, technology, population increase–all these conspire to frustrate future economic growth and to render increasing numbers economically irrelevant. Trumpian economics is bound to turn sour. When it does his constituency will be up for grabs. Its members have been fed the red meat of racism , xenophobia, and sexism. Can they rise above prejudices which they may share, but which have also been foisted upon them? If globalization has a virtue, it’s multi-culturalism–a universal vision of humanity. Can multi-culturalism survive the end of globalization? What sources can inform a generosity of spirit for proletarian localists? Will they be kind to their elitist neighbors, or will they persecute them? These are the questions of our time. Article printed from www.counterpunch.org: https://www.counterpunch.org _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C256c0c28c5704624ee0408d54892e1f1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636494718052395582&sdata=cktNSqcSjE6%2FZQm8g1l%2Bmu11C7%2BL6dGN7iFmwpOaIAo%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Thu Dec 21 18:59:51 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 18:59:51 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?FW=3A__UN_Vote_on_Jerusalem=3A_U=2ES=2E?= =?utf-8?b?IGFzIOKAnENhcG8gZGVpIENhcGnigJ0gfCBBY2N1cmFjeS5Pcmc=?= Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 12:58 PM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: UN Vote on Jerusalem: U.S. as “Capo dei Capi” | Accuracy.Org C-SPAN has been covering the UN General Assembly debate on a resolution demanding that countries abide by Security Council resolutions on Jerusalem. The representative of Venezuela spoke on behalf of the Non-Aligned Movement, which was backed by the South African delegation and other speakers. The final vote was 128-9-35, achieving the two-thirds required under the “Uniting for Peace” procedure. FRANCIS BOYLE, fboyle at illinois.edu Boyle, professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law, served as legal adviser to the PLO. His books include the Palestinian Right of Return under International Law. He recently wrote the piece “Trump’s National Security Strategy: More unlimited imperialism.” He noted that the General Assembly resolution being voted on today at the United Nations is under a special “Uniting for Peace” procedure, giving it greater legal force. He advocates greater use of Uniting for Peace by UN member states (including admission of Palestine to the United Nations) and said today: “In its Certain Expenses Advisory Opinion (1962) the International Court of Justice upheld the legality of the Uniting for Peace Resolution. As a matter of fact, it was originally introduced and first used by the United States government in order to overcome the veto by the former Soviet Union at the United Nations Security Council. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.” “Recognition of Israel’s annexation of Jerusalem violates the U.S. government’s own longstanding Stimson Doctrine (1932), which forbids recognition of any legal consequences as a result of the use of force.” Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 12:56 PM To: Boyle, Francis A > Subject: UN Vote on Jerusalem: U.S. as “Capo dei Capi” | Accuracy.Org UN Vote on Jerusalem: U.S. as “Capo dei Capi” | Accuracy.Org http://www.accuracy.org/release/un-vote-on-jerusalem-u-s-as-capo-dei-capi/ Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Thu Dec 21 18:59:51 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 18:59:51 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?FW=3A__UN_Vote_on_Jerusalem=3A_U=2ES=2E?= =?utf-8?b?IGFzIOKAnENhcG8gZGVpIENhcGnigJ0gfCBBY2N1cmFjeS5Pcmc=?= Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 12:58 PM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: UN Vote on Jerusalem: U.S. as “Capo dei Capi” | Accuracy.Org C-SPAN has been covering the UN General Assembly debate on a resolution demanding that countries abide by Security Council resolutions on Jerusalem. The representative of Venezuela spoke on behalf of the Non-Aligned Movement, which was backed by the South African delegation and other speakers. The final vote was 128-9-35, achieving the two-thirds required under the “Uniting for Peace” procedure. FRANCIS BOYLE, fboyle at illinois.edu Boyle, professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law, served as legal adviser to the PLO. His books include the Palestinian Right of Return under International Law. He recently wrote the piece “Trump’s National Security Strategy: More unlimited imperialism.” He noted that the General Assembly resolution being voted on today at the United Nations is under a special “Uniting for Peace” procedure, giving it greater legal force. He advocates greater use of Uniting for Peace by UN member states (including admission of Palestine to the United Nations) and said today: “In its Certain Expenses Advisory Opinion (1962) the International Court of Justice upheld the legality of the Uniting for Peace Resolution. As a matter of fact, it was originally introduced and first used by the United States government in order to overcome the veto by the former Soviet Union at the United Nations Security Council. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.” “Recognition of Israel’s annexation of Jerusalem violates the U.S. government’s own longstanding Stimson Doctrine (1932), which forbids recognition of any legal consequences as a result of the use of force.” Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 12:56 PM To: Boyle, Francis A > Subject: UN Vote on Jerusalem: U.S. as “Capo dei Capi” | Accuracy.Org UN Vote on Jerusalem: U.S. as “Capo dei Capi” | Accuracy.Org http://www.accuracy.org/release/un-vote-on-jerusalem-u-s-as-capo-dei-capi/ Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 21 22:38:29 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 22:38:29 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: From the Desk of Rodney Davis References: <201712212142.vBLLgkcB002782@s-bulk1-f.house.gov> Message-ID: I did not request a response, to my email last week to our representatives requesting they support Net Neutrality. This came today from Rodney Davis, he will not support Net Neutrality, obfuscating it in “wordspeak.” See below: Tammy Duckworth responsded with confirmation that she “will support Net Neutrality." Begin forwarded message: From: "Rep. Rodney Davis" > Subject: From the Desk of Rodney Davis Date: December 21, 2017 at 13:42:47 PST To: "Ms. Karen A. Aram" > Rodney Davis 13th District, Illinois ________________________________ www.rodneydavis.house.gov www.facebook.com/reprodneydavis www.twitter.com/rodneydavis ________________________________ 1740 Longworth House Office Building Washington, DC 20515 (202) 225-2371 [Congress of the United States // House of Representatives // Washington, DC 20515] Committee on Agriculture Subcommittee Chairman Biotechnology, Horticulture, and Research Subcommittee on Commodity Exchanges, Energy, and Credit Subcommittee on Nutrition Committee on House Administration Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure Subcommittee on Aviation Subcommittee on Highways and Transit Subcommittee on Water Resources and Environment December 21, 2017 Ms. Karen A. Aram 803 E Green St Urbana, IL 61802-3411 Dear Ms. Aram, Thank you for contacting me regarding your concerns with net neutrality and the recent vote taken by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). I appreciate hearing from constituents in my district and the time you took to share your thoughts. As your Member of Congress, I support a free and open internet. Network neutrality is generally the principle that Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and governments should treat all data on the internet equally and not discriminate based on content. In 2015, under the Obama Administration, the FCC approved a proposal to reclassify the internet as a public utility, which ultimately led to the FCC regulating the internet under its Title II authority and increasing government control of the internet. Unfortunately, Title II authority is an outdated framework established in the 1930s that equates to more government control and manipulation over the internet rather than a free market system, which gives power and choice to the consumer. On December 14, 2017, the FCC voted to reverse the 2015 reclassification, restoring the same framework that governed the internet in 2015. I understand your concerns with the internet being free and open and I recognize the worry accompanying this change. This rollback of regulations were also accompanied with new rules that require internet companies to publicly disclose if they are engaging in blocking, throttling, or paid prioritization of websites or content. I believe it is time for Congress to take legislative action against blocking and throttling in order to protect consumers and settle this debate with an updated law that applies to 2018 and beyond, rather than an outdated, 1930s framework. As Congress works to address this issue, please be assured I will continue to keep your support in mind. Again, thank you for contacting me regarding this important issue. Please let me know if my office can be of assistance to you in the future. In addition, if you would like to stay informed on what is happening in Washington, DC and around the 13th District, I encourage you to sign up to receive my e-newsletter by visiting https://rodneydavis.house.gov/contact/newsletter. It is truly an honor to represent you. Sincerely, [(signed)] Rodney Davis Member of Congress 2004 Fox Drive Champaign, IL 61820 (217) 403-4690 108 W. MarketSt. Taylorville, IL 62568 (217) 824-5117 15 Professional Park Drive Maryville, IL 62062 (618) 205-8660 2833 S. Grand Avenue East Springfield, IL 62703 (217) 791-6224 104 W. North Street Normal, IL 61761 (309) 252-8834 243 S. Water Street, Suite 100 Decatur, IL 62523 (217) 791-6224 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brussel at illinois.edu Fri Dec 22 03:23:27 2017 From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 03:23:27 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] A cogent blast from the present In-Reply-To: References: <2083319590.2319849.1513874976693.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2083319590.2319849.1513874976693@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2F900073-3976-47C2-B96B-229808731930@illinois.edu> These last sentences (in red) are dubious at best, which detract from the whole piece.: Pollution, climate change, resource depletion, technology, population increase–all these conspire to frustrate future economic growth and to render increasing numbers economically irrelevant. Some of these items can indeed increase future economic growth. Trumpian economics is bound to turn sour. When it does his constituency will be up for grabs. Its members have been fed the red meat of racism , xenophobia, and sexism. Can they rise above prejudices which they may share, but which have also been foisted upon them? If globalization has a virtue, it’s multi-culturalism–a universal vision of humanity. Can multi-culturalism survive the end of globalization? What sources can inform a generosity of spirit for proletarian localists? Will they be kind to their elitist neighbors, or will they persecute them? Globalization in its broadest sense, will not end, sez I. So his question is moot. —mkb On Dec 21, 2017, at 12:16 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: Good article David, even better than the previous one by the same author, in 2004. Sadly, this one is even better. Sadly, because the author clearly foresaw all that was to come, as have others like Chomsky, Hedges, etc. and now, its here. Did the young socialists at Saturday’s rally, really offer hope? Or will they now be coopted given the tax increase will no longer impact grad students? I hope not as they are the future. Will the poor and disenfranchised, proletariats, rise up against the government oligarchs, elites and corporations? And if they do, will it be fruitful, or merely bloody, given our current militarized police forces across the nation. The law of Passe Komatas, is no more. As time goes by there will be more homeless, more ill, people dying from lack of healthcare, with more diseases flourishing as a result of environmental degradation, and deregulations. In the meantime, war, death and destruction continues unabated across the globe. On Dec 21, 2017, at 08:49, David Green via Peace-discuss > wrote: - www.counterpunch.org - https://www.counterpunch.org - The Counter-Revolution Posted By ADRIAN KUZMINSKI On December 20, 2017 The polarization of our country isn’t between left and right, liberal and conservative, Democrat and Republican. It’s between richer and poorer, elitists and proletarians, over-educated and under-educated, globalists and localists. The line between the two is a shifting one, depending on where you live, but the consistent difference is the ability to participate successfully in the economy. Successful participants are able, without onerous labor, to accumulate sufficient income, assets, and benefits to provide for security for themselves and family–a comfortable home, useful education, vacations and travel, health care, a few luxuries, and comfortable retirement. This was the reality once made possible for most middle-class Americans by competent public education and high-paying industrial jobs. Those days are long gone. Fewer and fewer people can maintain an upwardly mobile life-style; more and more are falling behind. A recent survey conducted by the Federal Reserve revealed that half of Americans (49%) could not come up with $400 within 24 hours. How this shift to relative poverty happened over a generation is perhaps the central story of our time. A series of political decisions beginning in the 1970s successfully dismantled the middle-class state in favor of the plutocratic oligarchy under which we now live. Deregulation began under Jimmy Carter; Reagan busted unions and ingrained a hatred of “big government;” the Bushes and Clinton gutted welfare programs, repealed long-standing financial regulations, like the Glass-Stegal Act, and promoted globalization after the fall of the Soviet Union; Obama pursued identity politics while failing to reform Wall Street after the 2008 crash; Trump has focused on tax cuts for the rich (justified by trickle-dow economics) while dismissing scientific standards of truth and playing on racial and xenophobic fears. Most of this can be understood as a reaction to the revolutionary politics of the 1960s. The young generation of the time, dismayed by the injustice of the Vietnam War and unaccountable corporate-military power evident the wake of the Kennedy assassination, threatened, for a time, to overthrow the social and political norms of American society. Blacks in inner cities, inspired by the civil rights movement, rose up in unprecedented revolt in a cry for social justice, contributing to the chaos. These disruptions were not to be tolerated. Wealthy establishment leaders put their leads together and launched a top-down counter-revolution. They funded think-tanks, conservative media, and right wing politicians–most of whom preached a libertarian politics derived from Friedrich Hayek and Ayn Rand. The catchword was “freedom” and the idea was to remove all impediments to making or sharing money. Crucial to their success was the co-optation of the Democratic party leadership, beginning with the Bill Clinton and the Democratic Leadership Council. With the Democrats firmly on board, and with financial deregulation and globalization in the works, the counter-revolution swept all before it. So here we are. Social justice has been reduced to identity politics, with economic justice left in the dustbin of history. Progressives on the political fringe are left begging for crumbs from the corporate table that will never come under the current dispensation: free college education, universal health care. The consolation prize is the apparent victory of gender politics in a now endless series of media exposes of powerful men abusing women–a victory perilously vulnerable to backlash. The upshot is that our current politics is largely irrelevant. Odious and horrific as Trump may be, and he is, the liberal opposition lost most of its credibility when it sold out to the counter-revolution. Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren have little hope of restoring the old prosperity of the middle class. Globalization and a financialized economy with little benefit for ordinary people remains the order of the day. Those benefiting from the status quo, even marginally, are unlikely to champion real reform. The only hope, if this analysis makes any sense, lies with the poorer, under-educated, proletarian localists. So far they have been enthralled by Trumpian rhetoric, the only blunt instrument they’ve been offered with which to beat up the establishment. But it’s not working for them. Trump is not a globalist, but he is committed to a financialized, growth-dependent economy. The problem is that trickle-down economics–global or local–isn’t going to work any more. Pollution, climate change, resource depletion, technology, population increase–all these conspire to frustrate future economic growth and to render increasing numbers economically irrelevant. Trumpian economics is bound to turn sour. When it does his constituency will be up for grabs. Its members have been fed the red meat of racism , xenophobia, and sexism. Can they rise above prejudices which they may share, but which have also been foisted upon them? If globalization has a virtue, it’s multi-culturalism–a universal vision of humanity. Can multi-culturalism survive the end of globalization? What sources can inform a generosity of spirit for proletarian localists? Will they be kind to their elitist neighbors, or will they persecute them? These are the questions of our time. Article printed from www.counterpunch.org: https://www.counterpunch.org _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C256c0c28c5704624ee0408d54892e1f1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636494718052395582&sdata=cktNSqcSjE6%2FZQm8g1l%2Bmu11C7%2BL6dGN7iFmwpOaIAo%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Dec 22 05:05:55 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 23:05:55 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] A cogent blast from the present In-Reply-To: <2F900073-3976-47C2-B96B-229808731930@illinois.edu> References: <2083319590.2319849.1513874976693.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2083319590.2319849.1513874976693@mail.yahoo.com> <2F900073-3976-47C2-B96B-229808731930@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <89F5C4BB-CCF3-4664-962B-F1CC467F0C17@gmail.com> Globalization its broadest sense is the economic domination of the world by the American economic elite - under way as a project since the 19th century. The central strategy of that project was the prevention of the economic integration and development of Eurasia - under any power, eastern or western. The high point of that domination occurred after WWII - and now, two generations later, the rest to the world strikes back, notably in the conjunction of Russia and China in opposition to US world domination. The result is the relative decline of US influence over the last generation. China and Russia have economic development to offer; the US has only military repression. The future of humanity seem to depend upon the defeat of the American project. —CGE > On Dec 21, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss wrote: > > These last sentences (in red) are dubious at best, which detract from the whole piece.: >> Pollution, climate change, resource depletion, technology, population increase–all these conspire to frustrate future economic growth and to render increasing numbers economically irrelevant. >> >> Some of these items can indeed increase future economic growth. >> Trumpian economics is bound to turn sour. When it does his constituency will be up for grabs. Its members have been fed the red meat of racism , xenophobia, and sexism. Can they rise above prejudices which they may share, but which have also been foisted upon them? If globalization has a virtue, it’s multi-culturalism–a universal vision of humanity. Can multi-culturalism survive the end of globalization? What sources can inform a generosity of spirit for proletarian localists? Will they be kind to their elitist neighbors, or will they persecute them? >> > Globalization in its broadest sense, will not end, sez I. So his question is moot. > > —mkb > >> On Dec 21, 2017, at 12:16 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> >> Good article David, even better than the previous one by the same author, in 2004. >> >> Sadly, this one is even better. Sadly, because the author clearly foresaw all that was to come, as have others like Chomsky, Hedges, etc. and now, its here. >> >> Did the young socialists at Saturday’s rally, really offer hope? Or will they now be coopted given the tax increase will no longer impact grad students? I hope not as they are the future. >> >> Will the poor and disenfranchised, proletariats, rise up against the government oligarchs, elites and corporations? And if they do, will it be fruitful, or merely bloody, given our current militarized police forces across the nation. The law of Passe Komatas, is no more. >> >> As time goes by there will be more homeless, more ill, people dying from lack of healthcare, with more diseases flourishing as a result of environmental degradation, and deregulations. >> >> In the meantime, war, death and destruction continues unabated across the globe. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Dec 21, 2017, at 08:49, David Green via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>> >>> - www.counterpunch.org - https://www.counterpunch.org - >>> The Counter-Revolution >>> >>> Posted By ADRIAN KUZMINSKI On December 20, 2017 >>> The polarization of our country isn’t between left and right, liberal and conservative, Democrat and Republican. It’s between richer and poorer, elitists and proletarians, over-educated and under-educated, globalists and localists. The line between the two is a shifting one, depending on where you live, but the consistent difference is the ability to participate successfully in the economy. Successful participants are able, without onerous labor, to accumulate sufficient income, assets, and benefits to provide for security for themselves and family–a comfortable home, useful education, vacations and travel, health care, a few luxuries, and comfortable retirement. This was the reality once made possible for most middle-class Americans by competent public education and high-paying industrial jobs. >>> >>> Those days are long gone. Fewer and fewer people can maintain an upwardly mobile life-style; more and more are falling behind. A recent survey conducted by the Federal Reserve revealed that half of Americans (49%) could not come up with $400 within 24 hours. How this shift to relative poverty happened over a generation is perhaps the central story of our time. A series of political decisions beginning in the 1970s successfully dismantled the middle-class state in favor of the plutocratic oligarchy under which we now live. Deregulation began under Jimmy Carter; Reagan busted unions and ingrained a hatred of “big government;” the Bushes and Clinton gutted welfare programs, repealed long-standing financial regulations, like the Glass-Stegal Act, and promoted globalization after the fall of the Soviet Union; Obama pursued identity politics while failing to reform Wall Street after the 2008 crash; Trump has focused on tax cuts for the rich (justified by trickle-dow economics) while dismissing scientific standards of truth and playing on racial and xenophobic fears. >>> >>> Most of this can be understood as a reaction to the revolutionary politics of the 1960s. The young generation of the time, dismayed by the injustice of the Vietnam War and unaccountable corporate-military power evident the wake of the Kennedy assassination, threatened, for a time, to overthrow the social and political norms of American society. Blacks in inner cities, inspired by the civil rights movement, rose up in unprecedented revolt in a cry for social justice, contributing to the chaos. >>> >>> These disruptions were not to be tolerated. Wealthy establishment leaders put their leads together and launched a top-down counter-revolution. They funded think-tanks, conservative media, and right wing politicians–most of whom preached a libertarian politics derived from Friedrich Hayek and Ayn Rand. The catchword was “freedom” and the idea was to remove all impediments to making or sharing money. Crucial to their success was the co-optation of the Democratic party leadership, beginning with the Bill Clinton and the Democratic Leadership Council. With the Democrats firmly on board, and with financial deregulation and globalization in the works, the counter-revolution swept all before it. >>> >>> So here we are. Social justice has been reduced to identity politics, with economic justice left in the dustbin of history. Progressives on the political fringe are left begging for crumbs from the corporate table that will never come under the current dispensation: free college education, universal health care. The consolation prize is the apparent victory of gender politics in a now endless series of media exposes of powerful men abusing women–a victory perilously vulnerable to backlash. >>> >>> The upshot is that our current politics is largely irrelevant. Odious and horrific as Trump may be, and he is, the liberal opposition lost most of its credibility when it sold out to the counter-revolution. Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren have little hope of restoring the old prosperity of the middle class. Globalization and a financialized economy with little benefit for ordinary people remains the order of the day. >>> >>> Those benefiting from the status quo, even marginally, are unlikely to champion real reform. The only hope, if this analysis makes any sense, lies with the poorer, under-educated, proletarian localists. So far they have been enthralled by Trumpian rhetoric, the only blunt instrument they’ve been offered with which to beat up the establishment. But it’s not working for them. Trump is not a globalist, but he is committed to a financialized, growth-dependent economy. The problem is that trickle-down economics–global or local–isn’t going to work any more. Pollution, climate change, resource depletion, technology, population increase–all these conspire to frustrate future economic growth and to render increasing numbers economically irrelevant. >>> >>> Trumpian economics is bound to turn sour. When it does his constituency will be up for grabs. Its members have been fed the red meat of racism , xenophobia, and sexism. Can they rise above prejudices which they may share, but which have also been foisted upon them? If globalization has a virtue, it’s multi-culturalism–a universal vision of humanity. Can multi-culturalism survive the end of globalization? What sources can inform a generosity of spirit for proletarian localists? Will they be kind to their elitist neighbors, or will they persecute them? >>> >>> These are the questions of our time. >>> >>> Article printed from www.counterpunch.org : https://www.counterpunch.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C256c0c28c5704624ee0408d54892e1f1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636494718052395582&sdata=cktNSqcSjE6%2FZQm8g1l%2Bmu11C7%2BL6dGN7iFmwpOaIAo%3D&reserved=0 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com Fri Dec 22 10:58:47 2017 From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 04:58:47 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] From the Desk of Rodney Davis In-Reply-To: References: <201712212142.vBLLgkcB002782@s-bulk1-f.house.gov> Message-ID: Rodney Davis does not serve the people of IL-13 or the nation. On 12/21/17, Karen Aram wrote: > I did not request a response, to my email last week to our representatives > requesting they support Net Neutrality. > > This came today from Rodney Davis, he will not support Net Neutrality, > obfuscating it in “wordspeak.” See below: > > Tammy Duckworth responsded with confirmation that she “will support Net > Neutrality." > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: "Rep. Rodney Davis" > > > Subject: From the Desk of Rodney Davis > Date: December 21, 2017 at 13:42:47 PST > To: "Ms. Karen A. Aram" > > > > > Rodney Davis > 13th District, Illinois > ________________________________ > > www.rodneydavis.house.gov > www.facebook.com/reprodneydavis > www.twitter.com/rodneydavis > ________________________________ > > 1740 Longworth House Office Building > Washington, DC 20515 > (202) 225-2371 > > > [Congress of the United States // House of Representatives // Washington, DC > 20515] > Committee on Agriculture > > Subcommittee Chairman > Biotechnology, Horticulture, > and Research > Subcommittee on > Commodity Exchanges, > Energy, and Credit > Subcommittee on Nutrition > > Committee on > House Administration > > Committee on Transportation > and Infrastructure > > Subcommittee on Aviation > Subcommittee on > Highways and Transit > Subcommittee on > Water Resources and Environment > December 21, 2017 > Ms. Karen A. Aram > 803 E Green St > Urbana, IL 61802-3411 > > Dear Ms. Aram, > > Thank you for contacting me regarding your concerns with net neutrality and > the recent vote taken by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). I > appreciate hearing from constituents in my district and the time you took to > share your thoughts. > > As your Member of Congress, I support a free and open internet. Network > neutrality is generally the principle that Internet Service Providers (ISPs) > and governments should treat all data on the internet equally and not > discriminate based on content. In 2015, under the Obama Administration, the > FCC approved a proposal to reclassify the internet as a public utility, > which ultimately led to the FCC regulating the internet under its Title II > authority and increasing government control of the internet. Unfortunately, > Title II authority is an outdated framework established in the 1930s that > equates to more government control and manipulation over the internet rather > than a free market system, which gives power and choice to the consumer. > > On December 14, 2017, the FCC voted to reverse the 2015 reclassification, > restoring the same framework that governed the internet in 2015. I > understand your concerns with the internet being free and open and I > recognize the worry accompanying this change. This rollback of regulations > were also accompanied with new rules that require internet companies to > publicly disclose if they are engaging in blocking, throttling, or paid > prioritization of websites or content. > > I believe it is time for Congress to take legislative action against > blocking and throttling in order to protect consumers and settle this debate > with an updated law that applies to 2018 and beyond, rather than an > outdated, 1930s framework. As Congress works to address this issue, please > be assured I will continue to keep your support in mind. > > Again, thank you for contacting me regarding this important issue. Please > let me know if my office can be of assistance to you in the future. In > addition, if you would like to stay informed on what is happening in > Washington, DC and around the 13th District, I encourage you to sign up to > receive my e-newsletter by visiting > https://rodneydavis.house.gov/contact/newsletter. It is truly an honor to > represent you. > > > Sincerely, > [(signed)] > Rodney Davis > Member of Congress > > > > > 2004 Fox Drive > Champaign, IL 61820 > (217) 403-4690 108 W. MarketSt. > Taylorville, IL 62568 > (217) 824-5117 15 Professional Park Drive > Maryville, IL 62062 > (618) 205-8660 2833 S. Grand Avenue East > Springfield, IL 62703 > (217) 791-6224 104 W. North Street > Normal, IL 61761 > (309) 252-8834 243 S. Water Street, Suite 100 > Decatur, IL 62523 > (217) 791-6224 > > > From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Dec 22 13:25:01 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 13:25:01 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] A cogent blast from the present In-Reply-To: <89F5C4BB-CCF3-4664-962B-F1CC467F0C17@gmail.com> References: <2083319590.2319849.1513874976693.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2083319590.2319849.1513874976693@mail.yahoo.com> <2F900073-3976-47C2-B96B-229808731930@illinois.edu> <89F5C4BB-CCF3-4664-962B-F1CC467F0C17@gmail.com> Message-ID: Carl The recent decision by the UN, going against the US in relation to Israel, is a hopeful sign, that the American project maybe no more, or at least may not continue to receive the unquestioning support of our allies. On Dec 21, 2017, at 21:05, C G Estabrook > wrote: Globalization its broadest sense is the economic domination of the world by the American economic elite - under way as a project since the 19th century. The central strategy of that project was the prevention of the economic integration and development of Eurasia - under any power, eastern or western. The high point of that domination occurred after WWII - and now, two generations later, the rest to the world strikes back, notably in the conjunction of Russia and China in opposition to US world domination. The result is the relative decline of US influence over the last generation. China and Russia have economic development to offer; the US has only military repression. The future of humanity seem to depend upon the defeat of the American project. —CGE On Dec 21, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss > wrote: These last sentences (in red) are dubious at best, which detract from the whole piece.: Pollution, climate change, resource depletion, technology, population increase–all these conspire to frustrate future economic growth and to render increasing numbers economically irrelevant. Some of these items can indeed increase future economic growth. Trumpian economics is bound to turn sour. When it does his constituency will be up for grabs. Its members have been fed the red meat of racism , xenophobia, and sexism. Can they rise above prejudices which they may share, but which have also been foisted upon them? If globalization has a virtue, it’s multi-culturalism–a universal vision of humanity. Can multi-culturalism survive the end of globalization? What sources can inform a generosity of spirit for proletarian localists? Will they be kind to their elitist neighbors, or will they persecute them? Globalization in its broadest sense, will not end, sez I. So his question is moot. —mkb On Dec 21, 2017, at 12:16 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: Good article David, even better than the previous one by the same author, in 2004. Sadly, this one is even better. Sadly, because the author clearly foresaw all that was to come, as have others like Chomsky, Hedges, etc. and now, its here. Did the young socialists at Saturday’s rally, really offer hope? Or will they now be coopted given the tax increase will no longer impact grad students? I hope not as they are the future. Will the poor and disenfranchised, proletariats, rise up against the government oligarchs, elites and corporations? And if they do, will it be fruitful, or merely bloody, given our current militarized police forces across the nation. The law of Passe Komatas, is no more. As time goes by there will be more homeless, more ill, people dying from lack of healthcare, with more diseases flourishing as a result of environmental degradation, and deregulations. In the meantime, war, death and destruction continues unabated across the globe. On Dec 21, 2017, at 08:49, David Green via Peace-discuss > wrote: - www.counterpunch.org - https://www.counterpunch.org - The Counter-Revolution Posted By ADRIAN KUZMINSKI On December 20, 2017 The polarization of our country isn’t between left and right, liberal and conservative, Democrat and Republican. It’s between richer and poorer, elitists and proletarians, over-educated and under-educated, globalists and localists. The line between the two is a shifting one, depending on where you live, but the consistent difference is the ability to participate successfully in the economy. Successful participants are able, without onerous labor, to accumulate sufficient income, assets, and benefits to provide for security for themselves and family–a comfortable home, useful education, vacations and travel, health care, a few luxuries, and comfortable retirement. This was the reality once made possible for most middle-class Americans by competent public education and high-paying industrial jobs. Those days are long gone. Fewer and fewer people can maintain an upwardly mobile life-style; more and more are falling behind. A recent survey conducted by the Federal Reserve revealed that half of Americans (49%) could not come up with $400 within 24 hours. How this shift to relative poverty happened over a generation is perhaps the central story of our time. A series of political decisions beginning in the 1970s successfully dismantled the middle-class state in favor of the plutocratic oligarchy under which we now live. Deregulation began under Jimmy Carter; Reagan busted unions and ingrained a hatred of “big government;” the Bushes and Clinton gutted welfare programs, repealed long-standing financial regulations, like the Glass-Stegal Act, and promoted globalization after the fall of the Soviet Union; Obama pursued identity politics while failing to reform Wall Street after the 2008 crash; Trump has focused on tax cuts for the rich (justified by trickle-dow economics) while dismissing scientific standards of truth and playing on racial and xenophobic fears. Most of this can be understood as a reaction to the revolutionary politics of the 1960s. The young generation of the time, dismayed by the injustice of the Vietnam War and unaccountable corporate-military power evident the wake of the Kennedy assassination, threatened, for a time, to overthrow the social and political norms of American society. Blacks in inner cities, inspired by the civil rights movement, rose up in unprecedented revolt in a cry for social justice, contributing to the chaos. These disruptions were not to be tolerated. Wealthy establishment leaders put their leads together and launched a top-down counter-revolution. They funded think-tanks, conservative media, and right wing politicians–most of whom preached a libertarian politics derived from Friedrich Hayek and Ayn Rand. The catchword was “freedom” and the idea was to remove all impediments to making or sharing money. Crucial to their success was the co-optation of the Democratic party leadership, beginning with the Bill Clinton and the Democratic Leadership Council. With the Democrats firmly on board, and with financial deregulation and globalization in the works, the counter-revolution swept all before it. So here we are. Social justice has been reduced to identity politics, with economic justice left in the dustbin of history. Progressives on the political fringe are left begging for crumbs from the corporate table that will never come under the current dispensation: free college education, universal health care. The consolation prize is the apparent victory of gender politics in a now endless series of media exposes of powerful men abusing women–a victory perilously vulnerable to backlash. The upshot is that our current politics is largely irrelevant. Odious and horrific as Trump may be, and he is, the liberal opposition lost most of its credibility when it sold out to the counter-revolution. Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren have little hope of restoring the old prosperity of the middle class. Globalization and a financialized economy with little benefit for ordinary people remains the order of the day. Those benefiting from the status quo, even marginally, are unlikely to champion real reform. The only hope, if this analysis makes any sense, lies with the poorer, under-educated, proletarian localists. So far they have been enthralled by Trumpian rhetoric, the only blunt instrument they’ve been offered with which to beat up the establishment. But it’s not working for them. Trump is not a globalist, but he is committed to a financialized, growth-dependent economy. The problem is that trickle-down economics–global or local–isn’t going to work any more. Pollution, climate change, resource depletion, technology, population increase–all these conspire to frustrate future economic growth and to render increasing numbers economically irrelevant. Trumpian economics is bound to turn sour. When it does his constituency will be up for grabs. Its members have been fed the red meat of racism , xenophobia, and sexism. Can they rise above prejudices which they may share, but which have also been foisted upon them? If globalization has a virtue, it’s multi-culturalism–a universal vision of humanity. Can multi-culturalism survive the end of globalization? What sources can inform a generosity of spirit for proletarian localists? Will they be kind to their elitist neighbors, or will they persecute them? These are the questions of our time. Article printed from www.counterpunch.org: https://www.counterpunch.org _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C256c0c28c5704624ee0408d54892e1f1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636494718052395582&sdata=cktNSqcSjE6%2FZQm8g1l%2Bmu11C7%2BL6dGN7iFmwpOaIAo%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Fri Dec 22 13:25:36 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 13:25:36 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: ipernity: Flashpoints 2017.12.21 Francis Boyle about Palestine. - by Lorenzo Kjell Salmonson Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 7:24 AM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: ipernity: Flashpoints 2017.12.21 Francis Boyle about Palestine. - by Lorenzo Kjell Salmonson http://www.ipernity.com/doc/okupantusa/46041794 From fboyle at illinois.edu Fri Dec 22 13:25:36 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 13:25:36 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: ipernity: Flashpoints 2017.12.21 Francis Boyle about Palestine. - by Lorenzo Kjell Salmonson Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 7:24 AM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: ipernity: Flashpoints 2017.12.21 Francis Boyle about Palestine. - by Lorenzo Kjell Salmonson http://www.ipernity.com/doc/okupantusa/46041794 From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Dec 22 14:27:08 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 14:27:08 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] UN General Assembly repudiation of US Jerusalem announcement Message-ID: * Print * Leaflet * Feedback * Share » UN General Assembly repudiates Trump over Jerusalem announcement By Jordan Shilton WSWS.ORG 22 December 2017 The Trump administration suffered a humiliating defeat in the UN General Assembly Thursday as 128 countries condemned the president’s December 6 announcement recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. The 128-9 vote, with 35 abstentions, reflects the extreme isolation of the United States and increases the prospect of a violent clash in the Middle East. The vote was preceded by an aggressive campaign of bullying and intimidation by Trump and other officials. On Wednesday, Trump threatened any country who voted against the US with the cut-off of development aid. “They take hundreds of millions of dollars and even billions of dollars, and then they vote against us,” Trump said. “Well, we're watching those votes. Let them vote against us. We'll save a lot. We don't care.” US ambassador to the UN Nikki Haley continued the attacks in her speech at the General Assembly yesterday. “The United States will remember this day in which it was singled out for attack in the General Assembly for the very right of exercising our right as a sovereign nation,” declared Haley. “And we will remember when so many countries come calling on us, as they so often do, to pay even more and to use our influence for their benefit.” She proceeded to arrogantly inform the assembly that regardless of the outcome of the vote, Washington would stick by its policy. Only Togo, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Palau, Nauru, Guatemala and Honduras sided with the US and Israel in support of recognizing Jerusalem. Thirty-five countries abstained and 21 were absent from the vote, an indication that Trump and Haley’s threats had some impact. Although the US has often found itself in a small minority with its support for Israel on a series of UN resolutions, the readiness of many states to so explicitly defy the US is an expression of growing inter-imperialist antagonisms and the protracted decline of US capitalism. Traditional US allies like Britain, France, and Germany, who have tended to abstain on resolutions related to Israel, voted to condemn Trump’s announcement. Even Canada, arguably the closest US ally and a country which has voted repeatedly in defense of Israel at the UN, abstained. The fact that Trump’s blustering threats made such little impression and the decisive repudiation of Washington’s position only increase the danger that the US could lash out aggressively in the Middle East and trigger a catastrophic regional conflict. The Trump administration’s thuggish and bullying actions are bound up with the resort to the waging of great power conflicts as elaborated earlier this week in Trump’s National Security Strategy. Having been engaged in virtually uninterrupted war for over a quarter century, claiming the lives of millions in the process, the American ruling class is now openly contemplating military conflicts on a scale not seen since the two world wars of the 20th century. Were Trump to carry out his threat to cut financial aid to those states opposed to his line on Jerusalem, it would only further escalate great power tensions over the Middle East. Egypt, Jordan, Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan all defied Washington by supporting the resolution. The European powers, led by Germany, interpreted the Jerusalem decision as an opportunity to expand their influence in the region at the expense of the US and would rapidly fill the void left behind by a drawdown of US support. Russia and China, the chief obstacles in Washington’s aggressive drive to consolidate unchallenged dominance over the energy-rich region, would also seize the opportunity. The General Assembly vote, which is non-binding, came three days after Haley cast the only vote against the resolution in the Security Council, vetoing its passage. Trump’s Jerusalem decision ended the decades-long fraud of a two-state solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict promoted by Washington and the other major imperialist powers. It laid bare the bankruptcy of the bourgeois nationalist perspective which claims that the Palestinians can secure their democratic and social aspirations by achieving a bargain with the imperialist powers. This was on full display Thursday, as Palestinian Authority officials applauded the passage of a resolution which essentially asserted the status quo under which Israel has ruthlessly oppressed the Palestinian people for decades. PA President Mahmoud Abbas, whose regime has loyally served as a security guard for US imperialism and is widely hated among the Palestinians, celebrated the vote as a “victory for Palestine.” “We will continue our efforts in the United Nations and at all international forums to put an end to this occupation and to establish our Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital,” added Nabil Abu Rdainah, Abbas’ spokesman. In reality, Washington has made clear it is not prepared to tolerate the emergence of such a state. The European imperialist powers are no more concerned for the fate of the Palestinians, but are hoping to exploit Washington’s inability to broker a settlement between the Israelis and Palestinians, and the crisis of its military intervention in Syria, to advance their own predatory ambitions in the Middle East. The bourgeois Arab regimes, which used the General Assembly to attack Trump’s policy, are thoroughly complicit in the terrible conditions faced by the Palestinians. All of these regimes were informed of Trump’s policy announcement in advance. Saudi Arabia, which is keen to win Israeli support for its policy of militarily confronting Iran, reportedly ordered Abbas to Riyadh in November to dictate terms of a settlement to him that involved accepting Israeli control of Jerusalem and reducing Palestinian territory to a few small non-contiguous enclaves. The Jerusalem decision strengthened the hand of Benjamin Netanyahu’s right-wing government, which has injured over 1,900, arrested over 200 and killed 10 Palestinians in the two weeks since Trump’s speech as Israeli security forces have responded to mass protests with live ammunition. The US decision has also emboldened Tel Aviv to continue flouting international law in the Occupied Territories, including by persisting with its illegal settlement program. Predictably, Netanyahu went on the offensive following the vote. Blasting the outcome as “preposterous,” he proclaimed that Jerusalem “always was, always will be” Israel's capital. Trump’s Jerusalem policy is bound up with efforts to construct an anti-Iranian alliance in the Middle East with the aim of preparing for war with Tehran. Since he visited Saudi Arabia in May to deliver a speech to the assembled Arab leaders in which he called for the formation of a Sunni alliance to combat Iran, Trump and his senior officials have escalated tensions with Tehran and its allies at every opportunity. Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem came less than two months after he refused to certify Iranian compliance with the 2015 nuclear accord negotiated under the Obama administration. He has demanded that Congress adopt tougher sanctions, including on the country’s ballistic missile program. The lead-up to Thursday’s UN vote only underscored the deepening tensions across the Middle East. Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan denounced Trump’s threats to curtail financial aid, calling on the international community to teach the US “a good lesson.” “Mr Trump, you cannot buy Turkey's democratic will with your dollars. Our decision is clear,” he continued. “I call on the whole world: Don't you dare sell your democratic struggle and your will for petty dollars.” While there is no small amount of political posturing in such remarks, with Turkey seeking to exploit the Palestine issue to bolster its position in the region, Erdogan’s comments reflect Ankara’s growing rift with Washington. Erdogan has met with Russian President Vladimir Putin seven times this year and his government has indicated its intention to purchase a Russian anti-aircraft defense system. In addition, the Turkish government appears set to reach an agreement with Russia and Iran over the presence of Kurdish representatives at peace talks on Syria from which Washington has been largely excluded. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From divisek at yahoo.com Fri Dec 22 14:40:02 2017 From: divisek at yahoo.com (Dianna Visek) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 14:40:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Vault 7 Confirms, You're Right to Be Paranoid References: <265381721.2676877.1513953602836.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <265381721.2676877.1513953602836@mail.yahoo.com> Vault 7 Confirms, You're Right to Be Paranoid | Thomas Knapp | | | | | | | | | | | Vault 7 Confirms, You're Right to Be Paranoid | Thomas Knapp Thomas Knapp Bottom line: You should accept the possibility that for the last several years anything you’ve done on, or in th... | | | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Fri Dec 22 15:00:06 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 15:00:06 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: Call for Voices to Speak on Panel including HAROLD KOH at the 2018 AALS International Programs Breakfast on Trumping International Law on Jan 5 References: <1129646098018.1101980581113.40931.0.331830JL.2002@scheduler.constantcontact.com> Message-ID: Just shows you how corrupt the entire American Legal Academy is glorifying Killer Koh. The Nazis had their law schools too. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 8:16 PM To: 'mcgeorgeevents at pacific.edu' Subject: RE: Call for Voices to Speak on Panel including HAROLD KOH at the 2018 AALS International Programs Breakfast on Trumping International Law on Jan 5 “…particularly to the drone assassinations, “the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times” - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children.” Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Killer Koh should be put in jail.On my list of things to do. fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: McGeorge School of Law [mailto:pacificmcgeorge at www-mcgeorge.ccsend.com] On Behalf Of McGeorge School of Law Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 5:31 PM To: Boyle, Francis A > Subject: Call for Voices to Speak on Panel including HAROLD KOH at the 2018 AALS International Programs Breakfast on Trumping International Law on Jan 5 Trumping International Law: A Counter-Revolution in Legal Education, Scholarship and Faculty Initiatives Having trouble viewing this email? View online [http://files.constantcontact.com/9fc39239001/1acba055-bc85-454c-b3e0-fdbb081fefb7.png] Friday, January 5, 2018 | 7:00 a.m. - 8:30 a.m. Hosted by McGeorge School of Law's Global Center Trumping International Law: A Counter-Revolution in Legal Education, Scholarship and Faculty Initiatives Panel includes HAROLD KOH, of Yale Law School and former Legal Adviser from a nostalgic time when international law had currency This coming January's breakfast, "Trumping International Law" will gather international law faculty attendees to share their efforts in their pedagogy, scholarship and programming initiatives to research, publicize, and respond to the Trump administration's upending of the international law regime. We will reserve a certain number of slots for designated speakers, including Harold Koh, to share their specific experiences and open it to the floor afterwards for further exchange. Through this notice and call for voices, we invite you to submit a brief proposal to Jarrod Wong at jwong@ pacific.edu by Dec 27, 2017 to be one of the speakers, who will be selected based on our hope to capture a broad and diverse range of such efforts. Regardless, we invite all to the Breakfast, which is open to the public. Please join in the discussion on Friday, January 5, 2018 at the Malibu, South Tower, Level 4, Marriott Marquis San Diego Marina 333 W. Harbor Dr., San Diego, CA 92101 from 7:00 a.m until 8:30 a.m. Seating is limited. Please RSVP to McGeorgeEvents at pacific.edu or 916.739.7138 to secure your seat today. [http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/1101116784221/PT_MFAN_OuterShadowBottomBL.png] [http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/1101116784221/PT_MFAN_OuterShadowBottomBR.png] [http://files.constantcontact.com/9fc39239001/17fba605-23cb-417e-a756-36aa10d9f037.jpg]McGeorge School of Law 3200 Fifth Ave., Sacramento, CA 95817 916.739.7138 | McGeorgeEvents at pacific.edu McGeorge.edu University of the Pacific, McGeorge School of Law, 3200 Fifth Avenue, Marketing and Communications, Sacramento, CA 95817 SafeUnsubscribe™ fboyle at illinois.edu Forward this email | Update Profile | About our service provider Sent by mcgeorgeevents at pacific.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Fri Dec 22 15:00:06 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 15:00:06 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: Call for Voices to Speak on Panel including HAROLD KOH at the 2018 AALS International Programs Breakfast on Trumping International Law on Jan 5 References: <1129646098018.1101980581113.40931.0.331830JL.2002@scheduler.constantcontact.com> Message-ID: Just shows you how corrupt the entire American Legal Academy is glorifying Killer Koh. The Nazis had their law schools too. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 8:16 PM To: 'mcgeorgeevents at pacific.edu' Subject: RE: Call for Voices to Speak on Panel including HAROLD KOH at the 2018 AALS International Programs Breakfast on Trumping International Law on Jan 5 “…particularly to the drone assassinations, “the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times” - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children.” Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Killer Koh should be put in jail.On my list of things to do. fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: McGeorge School of Law [mailto:pacificmcgeorge at www-mcgeorge.ccsend.com] On Behalf Of McGeorge School of Law Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 5:31 PM To: Boyle, Francis A > Subject: Call for Voices to Speak on Panel including HAROLD KOH at the 2018 AALS International Programs Breakfast on Trumping International Law on Jan 5 Trumping International Law: A Counter-Revolution in Legal Education, Scholarship and Faculty Initiatives Having trouble viewing this email? View online [http://files.constantcontact.com/9fc39239001/1acba055-bc85-454c-b3e0-fdbb081fefb7.png] Friday, January 5, 2018 | 7:00 a.m. - 8:30 a.m. Hosted by McGeorge School of Law's Global Center Trumping International Law: A Counter-Revolution in Legal Education, Scholarship and Faculty Initiatives Panel includes HAROLD KOH, of Yale Law School and former Legal Adviser from a nostalgic time when international law had currency This coming January's breakfast, "Trumping International Law" will gather international law faculty attendees to share their efforts in their pedagogy, scholarship and programming initiatives to research, publicize, and respond to the Trump administration's upending of the international law regime. We will reserve a certain number of slots for designated speakers, including Harold Koh, to share their specific experiences and open it to the floor afterwards for further exchange. Through this notice and call for voices, we invite you to submit a brief proposal to Jarrod Wong at jwong@ pacific.edu by Dec 27, 2017 to be one of the speakers, who will be selected based on our hope to capture a broad and diverse range of such efforts. Regardless, we invite all to the Breakfast, which is open to the public. Please join in the discussion on Friday, January 5, 2018 at the Malibu, South Tower, Level 4, Marriott Marquis San Diego Marina 333 W. Harbor Dr., San Diego, CA 92101 from 7:00 a.m until 8:30 a.m. Seating is limited. Please RSVP to McGeorgeEvents at pacific.edu or 916.739.7138 to secure your seat today. [http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/1101116784221/PT_MFAN_OuterShadowBottomBL.png] [http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/1101116784221/PT_MFAN_OuterShadowBottomBR.png] [http://files.constantcontact.com/9fc39239001/17fba605-23cb-417e-a756-36aa10d9f037.jpg]McGeorge School of Law 3200 Fifth Ave., Sacramento, CA 95817 916.739.7138 | McGeorgeEvents at pacific.edu McGeorge.edu University of the Pacific, McGeorge School of Law, 3200 Fifth Avenue, Marketing and Communications, Sacramento, CA 95817 SafeUnsubscribe™ fboyle at illinois.edu Forward this email | Update Profile | About our service provider Sent by mcgeorgeevents at pacific.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Dec 22 15:44:36 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 09:44:36 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Decry discrimination: accept exploitation Message-ID: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/dec/21/mark-lilla-identity-politics-liberals "Macomb County, Michigan, Lilla’s birthplace just outside Detroit, was one of the rust belt counties that voted twice for Obama before going for Trump – a fact which complicates the progressive ‘whitelash' thesis that Trump voters were motivated by racial resentment." The desperate attempt to blame this fact on racism and/or misogyny shows that identity politics is a cover for liberals' abandonment of class politics. Its real source is the immiseration of the American middle class and the confiscation of their life chances, in comparison with their parents, over 40 years of accelerating growth of inequality. Liberals decry discrimination in order not to have to talk about exploitation. —CGE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Dec 22 16:03:43 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 16:03:43 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Decry discrimination: accept exploitation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Carl I agree with your statement below, as well as that which the article below emphasizes: "Lilla saw firsthand the deterioration of the relationship between the Democratic party and working-class whites in Michigan, a breakdown motivated in part by “the sense people had that there was a Democratic cultural elite that looked down on them and their religion and their family life and their traditional views”. In an influential 1985 study of Macomb, Stan Greenberg, a pollster, argued that white rust belt voters lost faith in the Democratic party due to a perception that it advocated for other groups – black Americans, the very poor, recent immigrants, feminists – but not them.” Where I disagree with you, is when you insist that the “rust belt folks support Trump because they are opposed to war” That is wishful thinking on your part. Those that supported Trump as the anti-war candidate tend to be the educated republicans who oppose war, they had hope based upon some of what he said in his campaign speech. They of course were wrong just as the liberal Democrats were wrong in supporting Obama, as a peace candidate. The American people need to stop putting faith in anything a candidate has to say and look behind the curtain of OZ, as to who is controlling the candidate. Neither Democrat or Republican Parties will allow a President to follow his own path, assuming he has one other than getting elected, given ownership by the corporate elites. On Dec 22, 2017, at 07:44, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/dec/21/mark-lilla-identity-politics-liberals "Macomb County, Michigan, Lilla’s birthplace just outside Detroit, was one of the rust belt counties that voted twice for Obama before going for Trump – a fact which complicates the progressive ‘whitelash' thesis that Trump voters were motivated by racial resentment." The desperate attempt to blame this fact on racism and/or misogyny shows that identity politics is a cover for liberals' abandonment of class politics. Its real source is the immiseration of the American middle class and the confiscation of their life chances, in comparison with their parents, over 40 years of accelerating growth of inequality. Liberals decry discrimination in order not to have to talk about exploitation. —CGE _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9259019a8a154703faa208d54952fd31%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636495543131413043&sdata=SThsD59uSqeDMARYuSaOPaBWYkCOk5DhEvEx3THbTI0%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Dec 22 17:07:24 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 11:07:24 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Decry discrimination: accept exploitation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7BAEAE-A5A3-487C-BCFB-14749922C933@gmail.com> "Clinton lost because PA, WI, and MI have high casualty rates and saw her as pro-war, study says" > On Dec 22, 2017, at 10:03 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Carl > > I agree with your statement below, as well as that which the article below emphasizes: > > "Lilla saw firsthand the deterioration of the relationship between the Democratic party and working-class whites in Michigan, a breakdown motivated in part by “the sense people had that there was a Democratic cultural elite that looked down on them and their religion and their family life and their traditional views”. > In an influential 1985 study of Macomb, Stan Greenberg, a pollster, argued that white rust belt voters lost faith in the Democratic party due to a perception that it advocated for other groups – black Americans, the very poor, recent immigrants, feminists – but not them.” > > > Where I disagree with you, is when you insist that the “rust belt folks support Trump because they are opposed to war” That is wishful thinking on your part. > > Those that supported Trump as the anti-war candidate tend to be the educated republicans who oppose war, they had hope based upon some of what he said in his campaign speech. They of course were wrong just as the liberal Democrats were wrong in supporting Obama, as a peace candidate. > > The American people need to stop putting faith in anything a candidate has to say and look behind the curtain of OZ, as to who is controlling the candidate. Neither Democrat or Republican Parties will allow a President to follow his own path, assuming he has one other than getting elected, given ownership by the corporate elites. > > >> On Dec 22, 2017, at 07:44, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> >> >> https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/dec/21/mark-lilla-identity-politics-liberals >> "Macomb County, Michigan, Lilla’s birthplace just outside Detroit, was one of the rust belt counties that voted twice for Obama before going for Trump – a fact which complicates the progressive ‘whitelash' thesis that Trump voters were motivated by racial resentment." >> >> The desperate attempt to blame this fact on racism and/or misogyny shows that identity politics is a cover for liberals' abandonment of class politics. >> >> Its real source is the immiseration of the American middle class and the confiscation of their life chances, in comparison with their parents, over 40 years of accelerating growth of inequality. >> >> Liberals decry discrimination in order not to have to talk about exploitation. >> >> —CGE >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9259019a8a154703faa208d54952fd31%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636495543131413043&sdata=SThsD59uSqeDMARYuSaOPaBWYkCOk5DhEvEx3THbTI0%3D&reserved=0 > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Dec 22 17:35:01 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 17:35:01 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Decry discrimination: accept exploitation In-Reply-To: <4B7BAEAE-A5A3-487C-BCFB-14749922C933@gmail.com> References: <4B7BAEAE-A5A3-487C-BCFB-14749922C933@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry, I don’t buy it. Where is the strong anti-war movement coming out of the rust-belt? Why did Rand Paul the only anti-war candidate, and a republican do so poorly? They base their analysis on “data” which simply correlates with “poverty.” Those states suffering poverty of individuals due to unemployment, are the states that have the highest proportion of people “joining” the military. The poor being used as cannon fodder, as a result of “poverty." Anyone can use data to support their argument, but I think what motivated people throughout the impoverished states was not support for Trump as anti-war, but rather anti-the elite establishment, which supports all but them. It is about “class" and the lower classes are suffering the loss of the “American Dream.” This is what needs to be addressed, they need to be informed that militarism is one of the reasons they are being impoverished, and we need to recognize that the American people have been pacified to war, by identity politics, or “liberal issues." The fear we need to address is fighting amongst ourselves, when we need to fight our abusers, that is the “system or corporate elites” controlling our government. PS I also look at the architects of the “data” being promoted and they are looking at 2020. On Dec 22, 2017, at 09:07, C G Estabrook > wrote: "Clinton lost because PA, WI, and MI have high casualty rates and saw her as pro-war, study says" > On Dec 22, 2017, at 10:03 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: Carl I agree with your statement below, as well as that which the article below emphasizes: "Lilla saw firsthand the deterioration of the relationship between the Democratic party and working-class whites in Michigan, a breakdown motivated in part by “the sense people had that there was a Democratic cultural elite that looked down on them and their religion and their family life and their traditional views”. In an influential 1985 study of Macomb, Stan Greenberg, a pollster, argued that white rust belt voters lost faith in the Democratic party due to a perception that it advocated for other groups – black Americans, the very poor, recent immigrants, feminists – but not them.” Where I disagree with you, is when you insist that the “rust belt folks support Trump because they are opposed to war” That is wishful thinking on your part. Those that supported Trump as the anti-war candidate tend to be the educated republicans who oppose war, they had hope based upon some of what he said in his campaign speech. They of course were wrong just as the liberal Democrats were wrong in supporting Obama, as a peace candidate. The American people need to stop putting faith in anything a candidate has to say and look behind the curtain of OZ, as to who is controlling the candidate. Neither Democrat or Republican Parties will allow a President to follow his own path, assuming he has one other than getting elected, given ownership by the corporate elites. On Dec 22, 2017, at 07:44, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/dec/21/mark-lilla-identity-politics-liberals "Macomb County, Michigan, Lilla’s birthplace just outside Detroit, was one of the rust belt counties that voted twice for Obama before going for Trump – a fact which complicates the progressive ‘whitelash' thesis that Trump voters were motivated by racial resentment." The desperate attempt to blame this fact on racism and/or misogyny shows that identity politics is a cover for liberals' abandonment of class politics. Its real source is the immiseration of the American middle class and the confiscation of their life chances, in comparison with their parents, over 40 years of accelerating growth of inequality. Liberals decry discrimination in order not to have to talk about exploitation. —CGE _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9259019a8a154703faa208d54952fd31%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636495543131413043&sdata=SThsD59uSqeDMARYuSaOPaBWYkCOk5DhEvEx3THbTI0%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Fri Dec 22 20:09:01 2017 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 14:09:01 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Seizing Assets Exec. Order 12/2117 Message-ID: <8tmer3dqddvqc2o6d3a3orjg.1513972867319@email.lge.com> Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Fri Dec 22 20:14:06 2017 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 14:14:06 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Asset Seizure 12/21 Exe. Order Message-ID: <9lvvlda7a99nr9aertpa8n5v.1513973353289@email.lge.com> Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphoneDear Carl: Just saw this today, hidden amid the flurry of other executive orders put out yesterday by our country's owners. The implications are far worse than RICO, of course, which I saw operate years ago on drug dealers in Evanston.  Completely shellshocked. ------ Original message------From: C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2017 11:07 AMTo: Karen Aram;Cc: peace;peace-discuss;Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] Decry discrimination: accept exploitation "Clinton lost because PA, WI, and MI have high casualty rates and saw her as pro-war, study says" On Dec 22, 2017, at 10:03 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: Carl I agree with your statement below, as well as that which the article below emphasizes:  "Lilla saw firsthand the deterioration of the relationship between the Democratic party and working-class whites in Michigan, a breakdown motivated in part by “the sense people had that there was a Democratic cultural elite that looked down on them and their religion and their family life and their traditional views”. In an influential 1985 study of Macomb, Stan Greenberg, a pollster, argued that white rust belt voters lost faith in the Democratic party due to a perception that it advocated for other groups – black Americans, the very poor, recent immigrants, feminists – but not them.” Where I disagree with you, is when you insist that the “rust belt folks support Trump because they are opposed to war” That is wishful thinking on your part.  Those that supported Trump as the anti-war candidate tend to be the educated republicans who oppose war, they had hope based upon some of what he said in his campaign speech. They of course were wrong just as the liberal Democrats were wrong in supporting Obama, as a peace candidate.  The American people need to stop putting faith in anything a candidate has to say and look behind the curtain of OZ, as to who is controlling the candidate. Neither Democrat or Republican Parties will allow a President to follow his own path, assuming he has one other than getting elected, given ownership by the corporate elites.   On Dec 22, 2017, at 07:44, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/dec/21/mark-lilla-identity-politics-liberals"Macomb County, Michigan, Lilla’s birthplace just outside Detroit, was one of the rust belt counties that voted twice for Obama before going for Trump – a fact which complicates the progressive ‘whitelash' thesis that Trump voters were motivated by racial resentment." The desperate attempt to blame this fact on racism and/or misogyny shows that identity politics is a cover for liberals' abandonment of class politics.  Its real source is the immiseration of the American middle class and the confiscation of their life chances, in comparison with their parents, over 40 years of accelerating growth of inequality.  Liberals decry discrimination in order not to have to talk about exploitation.  —CGE _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9259019a8a154703faa208d54952fd31%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636495543131413043&sdata=SThsD59uSqeDMARYuSaOPaBWYkCOk5DhEvEx3THbTI0%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Fri Dec 22 20:16:12 2017 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 14:16:12 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Exec Order Asset Seizure 12/21 Message-ID: Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphoneTrying again. Still learning how to do this list thing. https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-blocking-property-persons-involved-serious-human-rights-abuse-corruption/------ Original message------ From: C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2017 11:07 AMTo: Karen Aram;Cc: peace;peace-discuss;Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] Decry discrimination: accept exploitation "Clinton lost because PA, WI, and MI have high casualty rates and saw her as pro-war, study says" On Dec 22, 2017, at 10:03 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: Carl I agree with your statement below, as well as that which the article below emphasizes:  "Lilla saw firsthand the deterioration of the relationship between the Democratic party and working-class whites in Michigan, a breakdown motivated in part by “the sense people had that there was a Democratic cultural elite that looked down on them and their religion and their family life and their traditional views”. In an influential 1985 study of Macomb, Stan Greenberg, a pollster, argued that white rust belt voters lost faith in the Democratic party due to a perception that it advocated for other groups – black Americans, the very poor, recent immigrants, feminists – but not them.” Where I disagree with you, is when you insist that the “rust belt folks support Trump because they are opposed to war” That is wishful thinking on your part.  Those that supported Trump as the anti-war candidate tend to be the educated republicans who oppose war, they had hope based upon some of what he said in his campaign speech. They of course were wrong just as the liberal Democrats were wrong in supporting Obama, as a peace candidate.  The American people need to stop putting faith in anything a candidate has to say and look behind the curtain of OZ, as to who is controlling the candidate. Neither Democrat or Republican Parties will allow a President to follow his own path, assuming he has one other than getting elected, given ownership by the corporate elites.   On Dec 22, 2017, at 07:44, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/dec/21/mark-lilla-identity-politics-liberals"Macomb County, Michigan, Lilla’s birthplace just outside Detroit, was one of the rust belt counties that voted twice for Obama before going for Trump – a fact which complicates the progressive ‘whitelash' thesis that Trump voters were motivated by racial resentment." The desperate attempt to blame this fact on racism and/or misogyny shows that identity politics is a cover for liberals' abandonment of class politics.  Its real source is the immiseration of the American middle class and the confiscation of their life chances, in comparison with their parents, over 40 years of accelerating growth of inequality.  Liberals decry discrimination in order not to have to talk about exploitation.  —CGE _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9259019a8a154703faa208d54952fd31%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636495543131413043&sdata=SThsD59uSqeDMARYuSaOPaBWYkCOk5DhEvEx3THbTI0%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From divisek at yahoo.com Fri Dec 22 22:44:25 2017 From: divisek at yahoo.com (Dianna Visek) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 22:44:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] details of asset seizure exec. order References: <1956783193.2841076.1513982665353.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1956783193.2841076.1513982665353@mail.yahoo.com> Trump is saying that we can seize the property of anyone in the world who has engaged in "corruption", which is left undefined.  Here is the key paragraph: "I therefore determine that serious human rights abuse and corruption around the world constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, and economy of the United States, and I hereby declare a national emergency to deal with that threat." Here is the link to the actual order: Executive Order Blocking the Property of Persons Involved in Serious Human Rights Abuse or Corruption | The White House | | | | | | | | | | | Executive Order Blocking the Property of Persons Involved in Serious Hum... By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, inc... | | | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Fri Dec 22 23:04:57 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 17:04:57 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The Clintons ; Russian oligarch and corporate paymasters Message-ID: <010101d37b79$49519920$dbf4cb60$@comcast.net> July 2011: CNN: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/.../clinton.../ Within the U.S., Clinton has delivered 54 paid events in New York, 35 in California, 22 in Florida and 15 in Las Vegas, Nevada. "Helping to propel the former president to his most lucrative year were two events for which he received a combined $1 million. The first was a June 2010 event in Moscow organized by Renaissance Capital. The other was a December speech delivered in the United Arab Emirates for Novo Nordisk, a global health care company. Clinton received $500,000 for each event, which tie for the second-largest payments he has received for a single event. In June 2008, he received $525,000 for a speech at a motivational speaking conference in Edmonton, Canada." https://www.linkedin.com/company/renaissance-capital/ Podesta Lobby Group has also received major donations for years from Russian energy sources. Sec. Clinton was in office during these donations. This is when the Uranium One connection has also been introduced-connecting Russian energy interests to Sec. Clinton and President Bill Clinton. Obama is the only one who could have stopped the energy deal. It also should be noted that at least one of the groups trying to connect Dr. Jill to Russia is Think Progress which is a group that is funded by George Soros. Soros is a known DNC/Dem/Sec. Clinton supporter and donated millions to her 2016 campaign. Follow the money. Manage Clinton surpasses $75 million in speech income after lucrative 2010 Washington (CNN) -- Former president Bill Clinton. politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com Image may contain: 2 people, people smiling, people standing George Hayduke "The friend said Hillary Clinton had just returned in late March 2010 from an official trip to Moscow where she met with both Putin and Medvedev. The president's speaker's bureau had just received an offer from Renaissance Capital to pay the former president $500,000 for a single speech in Russia. Documents show Bill Clinton's personal lawyer on April 5, 2010, sent a conflict of interest review to the State Department asking for permission to give the speech in late June, and it was approved two days later. The Clinton friend said the former president's office then began assembling a list of requests to meet with Russian business and government executives whom he could meet on the trip. One of the goals of the trip was to try to help a Clinton family relative "grow investments in their business with Russian oligarchs and other businesses," the friend told The Hill. "It was one of the untold stories of the Russia trip. People have focused on Uranium One and the speaking fees, but opening up a business spigot for the family business was one only us insiders knew about," the friend said." http://thehill.com/.../356323-bill-clinton-sought-states... Manage Bill Clinton sought State's permission to meet with Russian nuclear official. thehill.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7013 bytes Desc: not available URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Dec 22 23:07:19 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 23:07:19 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Asset Seizure 12/21 Exe. Order In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, I have posted the Executive Order on FB, its very important. We’ll see what some of our international friends have to say about it. Just imagine if we had the power to apply it, Trump, Obama, Bush, Cheney, Kissinger, their advisors, the Pentagon, Think Tanks, CIA, all the contractors and subcontractors, all the corporations profiting from our wars and interventions. They’re all loaded. The money could go to pay reparations to all those our government is responsible for murdering, raping, destroying……….housing, infrastructure, though unfortunately money won’t bring back the dead. On Dec 22, 2017, at 12:24, bjornsona at ameritech.net wrote: Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone Thanks, Karen. I am new at this list thing. I appreciate all your info very much. ------ Original message------ From: Karen Aram Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2017 2:16 PM To: bjornsona at ameritech.net; Cc: C G Estabrook; Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] Asset Seizure 12/21 Exe. Order Can you send it to us, when googling, the last update was in 2015 under Obama, though now erased. Which makes sense if there is a new one now. On Dec 22, 2017, at 12:14, bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss > wrote: Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone Dear Carl: Just saw this today, hidden amid the flurry of other executive orders put out yesterday by our country's owners. The implications are far worse than RICO, of course, which I saw operate years ago on drug dealers in Evanston. Completely shellshocked. ------ Original message------ From: C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss Dat e: Fri, Dec 22, 2017 11:07 AM To: Karen Aram; Cc: peace;peace-discuss; Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] Decry discrimination: accept exploitation "Clinton lost because PA, WI, and MI have high casualty rates and saw her as pro-war, study says" > On Dec 22, 2017, at 10:03 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: Carl I agree with your statement below, as well as that which the article below emphasizes: "Lilla saw firsthand the deterioration of the relationship between the Democratic party and working-class whites in Michigan, a breakdown motivated in part by “the sense people had that there was a Democratic cultural elite that looked down on them and their religion and their family life and their traditional views”. In an influential 1985 study of Macomb, Stan Greenberg, a pollster, argued that white rust belt voters lost faith in the Democratic party due to a perception that it advocated for other groups – black Americans, the very poor, recent immigrants, feminists – but not them.” Where I disagree with you, is when you insist that the “rust belt folks support Trump because they are opposed to war” That is wishful thinking on your part. Those that supported Trump as the anti-war candidate tend to be the educated republicans who oppose war, they had hope based upon some of what he said in his campaign speech. They of course were wrong just as the liberal Democrats were wrong in supporting Obama, as a peace candidate. The American people need to stop putting faith in anything a candidate has to say and look behind the curtain of OZ, as to who is controlling the candidate. Neither Democrat or Republican Parties will allow a President to follow his own path, assuming he has one other than getting elected, given ownership by the corporate elites. On Dec 22, 2017, at 07:44, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/dec/21/mark-lilla-identity-politics-liberals "Macomb County, Michigan, Lilla’s birthplace just outside Detroit, was one of the rust belt counties that voted twice for Obama before going for Trump – a fact which complicates the progressive ‘whitelash' thesis that Trump voters were motivated by racial resentment." The desperate attempt to blame this fact on racism and/or misogyny shows that identity politics is a cover for liberals' abandonment of class politics. Its real source is the immiseration of the American middle class and the confiscation of their life chances, in comparison with their parents, over 40 years of accelerating growth of inequality. Liberals decry discrimination in order not to have to talk about exploitation. —CGE _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9259019a8a154703faa208d54952fd31%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636495543131413043&sdata=SThsD59uSqeDMARYuSaOPaBWYkCOk5DhEvEx3THbTI0%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C372fb559f92d4e770ff308d549789efb%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636495704775106898&sdata=hphoZ%2B1Ouh3hIpatFsq8vKHfjMSpo2F5T3sJq6m1kkg%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 23 04:31:24 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 04:31:24 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Asset Seizure 12/21 Exe. Order In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All joking aside, this could be very serious. I’m sure it won’t be used against Israel or the Saudi’s. Will it be used against Russia, China, Iran, Do we still have a freeze on funds belonging to Iran? China, has a lot of money invested in the US. Is this provocations or blackmail? A comparison with that which was constructed by the Obama administration would be useful, but I wasn’t able to locate a copy. On Dec 22, 2017, at 15:07, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: Thank you, I have posted the Executive Order on FB, its very important. We’ll see what some of our international friends have to say about it. Just imagine if we had the power to apply it, Trump, Obama, Bush, Cheney, Kissinger, their advisors, the Pentagon, Think Tanks, CIA, all the contractors and subcontractors, all the corporations profiting from our wars and interventions. They’re all loaded. The money could go to pay reparations to all those our government is responsible for murdering, raping, destroying……….housing, infrastructure, though unfortunately money won’t bring back the dead. On Dec 22, 2017, at 12:24, bjornsona at ameritech.net wrote: Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone Thanks, Karen. I am new at this list thing. I appreciate all your info very much. ------ Original message------ From: Karen Aram Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2017 2:16 PM To: bjornsona at ameritech.net; Cc: C G Estabrook; Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] Asset Seizure 12/21 Exe. Order Can you send it to us, when googling, the last update was in 2015 under Obama, though now erased. Which makes sense if there is a new one now. On Dec 22, 2017, at 12:14, bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss > wrote: Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone Dear Carl: Just saw this today, hidden amid the flurry of other executive orders put out yesterday by our country's owners. The implications are far worse than RICO, of course, which I saw operate years ago on drug dealers in Evanston. Completely shellshocked. ------ Original message------ From: C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss Dat e: Fri, Dec 22, 2017 11:07 AM To: Karen Aram; Cc: peace;peace-discuss; Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] Decry discrimination: accept exploitation "Clinton lost because PA, WI, and MI have high casualty rates and saw her as pro-war, study says" > On Dec 22, 2017, at 10:03 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: Carl I agree with your statement below, as well as that which the article below emphasizes: "Lilla saw firsthand the deterioration of the relationship between the Democratic party and working-class whites in Michigan, a breakdown motivated in part by “the sense people had that there was a Democratic cultural elite that looked down on them and their religion and their family life and their traditional views”. In an influential 1985 study of Macomb, Stan Greenberg, a pollster, argued that white rust belt voters lost faith in the Democratic party due to a perception that it advocated for other groups – black Americans, the very poor, recent immigrants, feminists – but not them.” Where I disagree with you, is when you insist that the “rust belt folks support Trump because they are opposed to war” That is wishful thinking on your part. Those that supported Trump as the anti-war candidate tend to be the educated republicans who oppose war, they had hope based upon some of what he said in his campaign speech. They of course were wrong just as the liberal Democrats were wrong in supporting Obama, as a peace candidate. The American people need to stop putting faith in anything a candidate has to say and look behind the curtain of OZ, as to who is controlling the candidate. Neither Democrat or Republican Parties will allow a President to follow his own path, assuming he has one other than getting elected, given ownership by the corporate elites. On Dec 22, 2017, at 07:44, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/dec/21/mark-lilla-identity-politics-liberals "Macomb County, Michigan, Lilla’s birthplace just outside Detroit, was one of the rust belt counties that voted twice for Obama before going for Trump – a fact which complicates the progressive ‘whitelash' thesis that Trump voters were motivated by racial resentment." The desperate attempt to blame this fact on racism and/or misogyny shows that identity politics is a cover for liberals' abandonment of class politics. Its real source is the immiseration of the American middle class and the confiscation of their life chances, in comparison with their parents, over 40 years of accelerating growth of inequality. Liberals decry discrimination in order not to have to talk about exploitation. —CGE _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9259019a8a154703faa208d54952fd31%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636495543131413043&sdata=SThsD59uSqeDMARYuSaOPaBWYkCOk5DhEvEx3THbTI0%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C372fb559f92d4e770ff308d549789efb%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636495704775106898&sdata=hphoZ%2B1Ouh3hIpatFsq8vKHfjMSpo2F5T3sJq6m1kkg%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C60e9eaa926a4491b940a08d54990cf39%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636495808652861484&sdata=ewh9uq6PhfjihvgBBEltZiZn7BXreMrN0twePN1RRHw%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Sat Dec 23 17:50:54 2017 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 11:50:54 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] details of asset seizure exec. order Message-ID: One would think a national emergency would be front page news, wouldn't one? Did I miss this in the News Gazette somehow? (sarcasm).While Reddit was mostly celebrating this as a way to seize the assets of Clinton's people (some are listed in the beginning of the last page- Appendix? ), some Reddit-ers were seeing the total picture. Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Dianna Visek via Peace-discussDate: Fri, Dec 22, 2017 4:45 PMTo: Yahoogroups;Peace-discuss List;Cc: Subject:[Peace-discuss] details of asset seizure exec. order Trump is saying that we can seize the property of anyone in the world who has engaged in "corruption", which is left undefined.  Here is the key paragraph: "I therefore determine that serious human rights abuse and corruption around the world constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, and economy of the United States, and I hereby declare a national emergency to deal with that threat." Here is the link to the actual order: Executive Order Blocking the Property of Persons Involved in Serious Human Rights Abuse or Corruption | The White House Executive Order Blocking the Property of Persons Involved in Serious Hum...By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, inc... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sun Dec 24 13:30:15 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 07:30:15 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Neoliberalism and homicide Message-ID: <466243B2-E51E-4B38-8557-5A6DA4BE1D84@gmail.com> https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/12/22/how-inequality-kills/ "Contrary to the assumptions of left-liberal commentators, neoliberalism is not merely a bad policy adopted by “greedy” elites. It is in fact a fundamental systemic rejection of the post-laissez-faire settlement put in place in just about all of the developed capitalist countries after the Second World War. Out with the legacy of the New Deal and the Great Society and forward with what is essentially a resurrection of 1920s capitalism... "...after the Depression and during the great expansion of the Golden Age, we witnessed the unprecedented: the share of national income flowing to the one percent continued to fall by an increasing percentage each decade during the ‘30s, ‘40s, ‘50s, ‘60s and early ‘70s. These were the only years in American history when an essential feature of State policy was to increase social services benefitting the working class and redistribute income from the wealthiest to those who do society’s work. And these were also the only years in the history of the republic that featured ongoing and increasing downward redistribution. This was the result of New Deal and Great Society social legislation, and the power of labor unions. Hence, from the perspective of the enlightened capitalist, the legacy of these policies must be reversed… "Homicide and murder are also strongly related to inequality. The World Bank reports that inequality predicts about half of the variance in murder rates between the U.S. and other countries and the FBI notes that of U.S. murders for which the precipitating reason is known over half stem from the agent’s sense that he had been “dissed.” (12) Persons shoot someone who has cut them off in traffic or beat them to a parking spot. "In connection with the high number of homicides associated with dissing, i.e. challenging a person’s sense of self-respect or personal worth, the psychologist and neuroscientist Martin Daly documents the intimate connection between inequality and loss of personal and social status. He shows that inequality predicts homicide rates “better than any other variable.” (13) In America, status is determined by how much a person has, and having is a matter of the standard of material living one enjoys, competitively conceived in terms of how one compares with others. And the admired standard is one’s level of material comfort, determined for the non-wealthy by a good job and the ability to support a family or the ability to enjoy a comfortable and independent standard of living as a single person. These makers of social status and self-respect are unavailable to those at the lower ends of the income hierarchy and the unemployed. Self-respect is one of men’s (and most homicides are male-on-male) most prized goods, and self-respect, as much as income and wealth, is unequally distributed. In a society where there are structurally determined winners and losers, if one is a loser one’s social reputation is all one has, all one can brandish, in order to maintain a sense of self-respect and personal worth. A diss is a blow to both social reputation and self-respect, and if one has nothing else, the threat looms disproportionately large. "While gang murders are not the majority of murders by the poor, they display in stripped-down form the way in which dissing translates to a social put-down and social denigration makes for personal humiliation and devaluation. The disser becomes a deadly rival. The research I cite in this essay shows that this syndrome is by no means limited to gang culture…" ### -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sun Dec 24 14:19:35 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 08:19:35 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Cornel West denounces fake left politics Message-ID: <0AEB3C02-C66A-4EFF-B5A7-45F11609C32C@gmail.com> The US government is killing people around the world, but not for white supremacy. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/17/ta-nehisi-coates-neoliberal-black-struggle-cornel-west ‘...any analysis or vision of our world that omits the centrality of Wall Street power, US military policies, and the complex dynamics of class, gender, and sexuality in black America is too narrow and dangerously misleading. So it is with Ta-Nehisi Coates’ worldview. 'Coates rightly highlights the vicious legacy of white supremacy – past and present. He sees it everywhere and ever reminds us of its plundering effects. Unfortunately, he hardly keeps track of our fightback, and never connects this ugly legacy to the predatory capitalist practices, imperial policies (of war, occupation, detention, assassination) or the black elite’s refusal to confront poverty, patriarchy or transphobia. 'In short, Coates fetishizes white supremacy. He makes it almighty, magical and unremovable. What concerns me is his narrative of “defiance”. For Coates, defiance is narrowly aesthetic – a personal commitment to writing with no connection to collective action. It generates crocodile tears of neoliberals who have no intention of sharing power or giving up privilege. 'When he honestly asks: “How do you defy a power that insists on claiming you?”, the answer should be clear: they claim you because you are silent on what is a threat to their order (especially Wall Street and war). You defy them when you threaten that order…' ### From stuartnlevy at gmail.com Sun Dec 24 14:52:53 2017 From: stuartnlevy at gmail.com (stuartnlevy) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 08:52:53 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] No AWARE meeting today 12/24 nor next Sunday 12/31 Message-ID: <5a3fbf47.8f22240a.beaf5.e419@mx.google.com> AWARE isn't meeting this Sunday the 24th, nor next Sunday the 31st, since Pizza M will be closed both days. I think that means that our next event will be our first anti-war demonstration of 2018, at 2pm on Saturday, Jan. 6th.  Good holidays, all, and let's hope for a better year to come.  -- Stuart -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sun Dec 24 15:59:42 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 15:59:42 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Cornel West denounces fake left politics In-Reply-To: <0AEB3C02-C66A-4EFF-B5A7-45F11609C32C@gmail.com> References: <0AEB3C02-C66A-4EFF-B5A7-45F11609C32C@gmail.com> Message-ID: This from the Intercept, maybe even better, once you get past the first paragraph or two. > https://theintercept.com/2017/12/21/cornel-west-ta-nehisi-coates-feud/ > On Dec 24, 2017, at 06:19, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > > The US government is killing people around the world, but not for white supremacy. > > https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fcommentisfree%2F2017%2Fdec%2F17%2Fta-nehisi-coates-neoliberal-black-struggle-cornel-west&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb2033471046f4b807ad508d54ad96e6a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497220078317095&sdata=pR%2BFOyrxOf8kdm80yFc88yZCaU5U6M6JEGbQu0YrY%2F8%3D&reserved=0 > > ‘...any analysis or vision of our world that omits the centrality of Wall Street power, US military policies, and the complex dynamics of class, gender, and sexuality in black America is too narrow and dangerously misleading. So it is with Ta-Nehisi Coates’ worldview. > > 'Coates rightly highlights the vicious legacy of white supremacy – past and present. He sees it everywhere and ever reminds us of its plundering effects. Unfortunately, he hardly keeps track of our fightback, and never connects this ugly legacy to the predatory capitalist practices, imperial policies (of war, occupation, detention, assassination) or the black elite’s refusal to confront poverty, patriarchy or transphobia. > > 'In short, Coates fetishizes white supremacy. He makes it almighty, magical and unremovable. What concerns me is his narrative of “defiance”. For Coates, defiance is narrowly aesthetic – a personal commitment to writing with no connection to collective action. It generates crocodile tears of neoliberals who have no intention of sharing power or giving up privilege. > > 'When he honestly asks: “How do you defy a power that insists on claiming you?”, the answer should be clear: they claim you because you are silent on what is a threat to their order (especially Wall Street and war). You defy them when you threaten that order…' > > ### > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb2033471046f4b807ad508d54ad96e6a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497220078317095&sdata=9JSekYssowbmrRlaC2OvJWLh0pqXSQFFOqQwyJbJnhw%3D&reserved=0 From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Sun Dec 24 16:41:34 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 10:41:34 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Forget Coates vs. West - We All Have a Duty to Confront the Full Reach of U.S. Empire Message-ID: <004801d37cd6$1152a1f0$33f7e5d0$@comcast.net> Forget Coates vs. West - We All Have a Duty to Confront the Full Reach of U.S. Empire https://cdn01.theintercept.com/wp-uploads/sites/1/2017/01/Naomi-Klein-credit -Kourosh-Keshiri-1485209804-440x440.jpg https://cdn01.theintercept.com/wp-uploads/sites/1/2017/12/opal-1513872852.jp g Naomi Klein, Opal Tometi December 21 2017, 10:18 a.m. So, which side are you on? #TeamWest or #TeamCoates? Choose fast, preferably within seconds, and don't come to this gunfight with a knife. No, like some nerdy Rambo, we want you greased up and loaded with ammo: your most painful character smears, your most "gotcha" evidence of past political infractions, a blitzkrieg of hyperlinks and, of course, an aircraft carrier of reaction GIFs. That's pretty much how the online debate has played out ever since Cornel West published his piece in The Guardian challenging Ta-Nehisi Coates, an article you either regard as an outrageous injustice or an earth-shattering truth bomb, depending on which team you have chosen. We see it differently. We see this debate as a political opportunity, one that has far less to do with either of these brilliant men and everything to do with how, at a time of unfathomably high stakes, we are going to build a multiracial human rights movement capable of beating back surging white supremacy and rapidly concentrating corporate power. As women, both Black and white, both American and Canadian, we see the question like this: What are the duties of radicals and progressives inside relatively wealthy countries to the world beyond our national borders? A warming world wracked by expanding and unending wars that our governments wage, finance, and arm - a world scarred by unbearable poverty and forced migration? Though West directed his criticisms at Coates, these are by no means questions for Coates alone. They are urgent challenges for all of us who see ourselves as part of social movements and intellectual traditions that yearn for a world where justice and dignity abound. What are the duties of radicals and progressives inside relatively wealthy countries to the world beyond our national borders? So before this goes any further, let's yank this fight away from the poisonous terrain on which it is currently unfolding - that of two famous men with healthy egos duking it out while the Twitterverse divides into warring camps - and instead dig into the substance. Let's also take it as a given that West's piece was flawed and painted Coates with too broad a brush. It accuses him of silence on some subjects where he has, in fact, been vocal (like the financial sector's role in entrenching Black poverty). And as the New Yorker's Jelani Cobb pointed out, the man who has done more to revive the debate about Black reparations than any writer of his generation cannot blithely be written off as a neoliberal tool. But that does not change the fact that West raises crucial points when he critiques Coates for having too little to say about the impact of U.S. military and economic policies abroad, for failing to place U.S. experiences in a broader context of U.S. imperial power, and for casting Barack Obama as the continuation of the legacy of Malcolm X (whom West describes as "the greatest prophetic voice against the American Empire," while Obama is "the first Black head of the American Empire"). Where we differ is that we don't think these criticisms apply just (or even especially) to Coates. Nor do we think this debate should be viewed as an exclusively Black discussion, as some have argued (which is why we decided to write this together). Rather, these questions about our relationship to empire and transnational capital are ones that every progressive movement and intellectual across North America should urgently confront, and we are convinced that if we do, we will be stronger for it. To be clear, we are not saying that every writer has a duty to write about everything. No one does. Nor do we think that the subject matter for which Coates is known - Black life in the United States - is somehow insufficient. It isn't. And yet hard questions remain that cannot be dismissed simply become some dislike the messenger or the form of the message. Such as: Is it even possible to be a voice for transformational change without a clear position on the brutal wars and occupations waged with U.S. weapons? Is it possible to have a credible critique of Wall Street's impact on Black and other vulnerable communities in the U.S. without reckoning with the predatory and neocolonial impacts of the global financial system (including Washington-based institutions like the International Monetary Fund) on the debt-laden economies of African countries? Is it even possible to be a voice for transformational change without a clear position on the brutal wars and occupations waged with U.S. weapons? Even when our work is primarily focused nationally or hyperlocally, as it is for most organizers and writers, there is still a pressing need for an internationalist conception of power to inform our analysis. This is not a contradiction. In fact, it used to be foundational to all major radical and progressive movements, from the socialist internationals to Pan-Africanism and the global campaign to end apartheid in South Africa, from the "alter-globalization" movement to the international women's movement. All understood that resistance needed to be global in order to win. Marcus Garvey, for instance, drew ideas and inspiration for Black liberation from the Irish struggle for independence. And Malcolm X famously observed that when racial minorities in the U.S. saw their struggle in a global context, they had the empowering realization that they were, in fact, part of a broad and powerful majority. We are not saying that this internationalist tradition is entirely absent in contemporary North American movements - there have been Black activist delegations to Colombia, Brazil, and Palestine in recent years. The climate justice movement is linked to frontline fights against fossil fuel extraction in every corner of the globe. And the immigrant rights movement is internationalist by definition. So are parts of the movement confronting sexual violence. We could go on. But it is also true that the atmosphere of intense political crisis in the United States is breeding a near myopic insularity among progressives and even some self-described radicals, one that is not just morally dangerous but strategically shortsighted. By defining our work exclusively as what goes on inside our borders, and losing touch with the rich anti-imperialist tradition, we risk depriving our movements of the revolutionary power that flows from cross-border exchanges of both wisdom and tactics. For instance, if U.S. President Donald Trump is seen in isolation from the rise of far-right forces around the world, we lose opportunities to learn from people in Brazil, Argentina, the Philippines, South Africa, India, Turkey, and Togo about how they are resisting their various strongmen. Because if we have learned anything over the past years of left-wing setbacks and disappointments, from Syriza in Greece to Maduro in Venezuela to the dashed dreams of the Arab Spring, it should be that the forces shaping national destinies are global. International lenders, Western military support for despots, or even a sudden drop in oil prices can all thwart or derail a liberation project that has defined itself too narrowly. Which is why it's high time to change the subject from West vs. Coates, and begin the much more salient debate about what we all can do to rediscover the power of a genuinely internationalist, anti-imperialist worldview. A power that our movement ancestors well understood. Because there is simply no way to fight for a world in which Black lives truly matter without reckoning with the global forces that allow Black lives to disappear under waves in the Mediterranean, or to be mutilated and enslaved in countries like Libya, or to be snuffed out by debt imposed by Washington-based financial institutions. The same is true of climate change, which is hitting people in the global south first and worst. It has been reported that of the top 10 nations most impacted by climate change, six are on the continent of Africa. Similarly, there is no way to fight for the full funding of public schools and free universal health care inside the United States without confronting the vastly expanding share of the budget that goes to feeding the war machine. The immigrant rights movement is the most internationalist of our movements, but we still need to do more to connect the dots between rights and justice for migrants within countries like the United States and Canada, and the drivers of migration in places like Mexico and Ghana, whether it is pro-corporate trade and economic policies that destabilize domestic industries, or U.S.-backed wars, or drought deepened by climate change. Our movements simply cannot afford to stick to our various comfort zones or offload internationalism as someone else's responsibility. The unending misery in Haiti may be the most vivid illustration of how today's crises are all interrelated. On the island, serial natural disasters, some linked to climate change, are being layered on top of illegitimate foreign debts and coupled with gross negligence by the international aid industry, as well as acute U.S.-lead efforts to destabilize and under-develop the country. These compounding forces have led tens of thousands of Haitians to migrate to the United States in recent years, where they come face-to-face with Trump's anti-Black, anti-immigrant agenda. Many are now fleeing to Canada, where hundreds if not thousands could face deportation. We can't pry these various cross-border crises apart, nor should we. In short, there is no radicalism - Black or otherwise - that ends at the national boundaries of our countries, especially the wealthiest and most heavily armed nation on earth. From the worldwide reach of the financial sector to the rapidly expanding battlefield of U.S. Special Operations to the fact that carbon pollution respects no borders, the forces we are all up against are global. So, too, are the crises we face, from the rise of white supremacy, ethno-chauvinism, and authoritarian strongmen to the fact that more people are being forced from their homes than at any point since World War II. If our movements are to succeed, we will need both analysis and strategies that reflect these truths about our world. Some argue for staying in our lane, and undoubtedly there is a place for deep expertise. The political reality, however, is that the U.S. government doesn't stay in its lane and never has - it spends public dollars using its military and economic might to turn the world into a battlefield, and it does so in the name of all of U.S. citizens. As a result, our movements simply cannot afford to stick to our various comfort zones or offload internationalism as someone else's responsibility. To do so would be grossly negligent of our geopolitical power, our own agency, as well as our very real connections to people and places throughout the world. So when we build cross-sector alliances and cross-issue solidarity, those relationships cannot be confined to our own nations or even our own hemisphere - not in a world as interconnected as ours. We have to strive for them to be as global as the forces we are up against. We know this can seem overwhelming at a time when so many domestic crises are coming to a head and so many of us are being pushed beyond the breaking point. But it is worth remembering that our movement ancestors formed international alliances and placed their struggles within a global narrative not out of a sense of guilt or obligation, but because they understood that it made them stronger and more likely to win at home - and that strength terrified their enemies. Besides, the benefit of building a broad-based, multiracial social movement - which should surely be the end goal of all serious organizers and radical intellectuals - is that movements can have a division of labor, with different specialists focusing on different areas, united by broad agreement about overall vision and goals. That's what a real movement looks like. The good news is that grassroots internationalism has never been easier. >From cellphones to social media, we have opportunities to speak with one another across borders that our predecessors couldn't have dreamed of. Similarly, tools that allow migrant families to stay connected with loved ones in different countries can also become conduits for social movements to hear news that the corporate media ignores. We are able, for instance, to learn about the pro-democracy movements growing in strength across the continent of Africa, as well as efforts to stop extrajudicial killings in countries like Brazil. Many would not have known that Black African migrants are being enslaved in Libya if it had not been for these same tools. And had they not known they wouldn't have been able to engage in acts of necessary solidarity. So let's leave narrow, nostalgic nationalism to Donald Trump and his delusional #MAGA supporters. The forces waging war on bodies and the planet are irreversibly global, and we are vastly stronger when we build global movements capable of confronting them at every turn. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1206 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1411 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Mon Dec 25 03:26:38 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 21:26:38 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Cornel West denounces fake left politics In-Reply-To: References: <0AEB3C02-C66A-4EFF-B5A7-45F11609C32C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <78244C1C-F52D-4168-9B00-08DC0822D71A@gmail.com> Munich, 1938 Forget Neville vs. Adolf — We All Have a Duty to Confront the Full Reach of Imperialism So, which side are you on? #TeamNeville or #TeamAdolf? Choose fast, preferably within seconds, and don’t come to this gunfight with a knife. No, like some nerdy Rambo, we want you greased up and loaded with ammo: your most painful character smears, your most “gotcha” evidence of past political infractions, a blitzkrieg of hyperlinks and, of course, an aircraft carrier of reaction GIFs. That’s pretty much how the online debate has played out ever since Neville Chamberlain published his piece in the British papers regarding Adolf Hitler (“Peace in Our Time’), an article you either regard as an outrageous injustice or an earth-shattering truth bomb, depending on which team you have chosen. We see it differently. We see this debate as a political opportunity, one that has far less to do with either of these brilliant men and everything to do with how, at a time of unfathomably high stakes, we are going to build a multiracial [Anglo-Saxon/German] human rights movement capable of beating back surging Aryan supremacy and rapidly concentrating corporate power. As women, we see the question like this: What are the duties of radicals and progressives inside relatively wealthy countries to the world beyond our national borders?... > On Dec 24, 2017, at 9:59 AM, Karen Aram wrote: > > This from the Intercept, maybe even better, once you get past the first paragraph or two. > > >> https://theintercept.com/2017/12/21/cornel-west-ta-nehisi-coates-feud/ > > >> On Dec 24, 2017, at 06:19, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> The US government is killing people around the world, but not for white supremacy. >> >> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fcommentisfree%2F2017%2Fdec%2F17%2Fta-nehisi-coates-neoliberal-black-struggle-cornel-west&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb2033471046f4b807ad508d54ad96e6a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497220078317095&sdata=pR%2BFOyrxOf8kdm80yFc88yZCaU5U6M6JEGbQu0YrY%2F8%3D&reserved=0 >> >> ‘...any analysis or vision of our world that omits the centrality of Wall Street power, US military policies, and the complex dynamics of class, gender, and sexuality in black America is too narrow and dangerously misleading. So it is with Ta-Nehisi Coates’ worldview. >> >> 'Coates rightly highlights the vicious legacy of white supremacy – past and present. He sees it everywhere and ever reminds us of its plundering effects. Unfortunately, he hardly keeps track of our fightback, and never connects this ugly legacy to the predatory capitalist practices, imperial policies (of war, occupation, detention, assassination) or the black elite’s refusal to confront poverty, patriarchy or transphobia. >> >> 'In short, Coates fetishizes white supremacy. He makes it almighty, magical and unremovable. What concerns me is his narrative of “defiance”. For Coates, defiance is narrowly aesthetic – a personal commitment to writing with no connection to collective action. It generates crocodile tears of neoliberals who have no intention of sharing power or giving up privilege. >> >> 'When he honestly asks: “How do you defy a power that insists on claiming you?”, the answer should be clear: they claim you because you are silent on what is a threat to their order (especially Wall Street and war). You defy them when you threaten that order…' >> >> ### >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb2033471046f4b807ad508d54ad96e6a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497220078317095&sdata=9JSekYssowbmrRlaC2OvJWLh0pqXSQFFOqQwyJbJnhw%3D&reserved=0 > From karenaram at hotmail.com Mon Dec 25 03:39:32 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2017 03:39:32 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Cornel West denounces fake left politics In-Reply-To: <78244C1C-F52D-4168-9B00-08DC0822D71A@gmail.com> References: <0AEB3C02-C66A-4EFF-B5A7-45F11609C32C@gmail.com> <78244C1C-F52D-4168-9B00-08DC0822D71A@gmail.com> Message-ID: This is the part from the article in the Intercept that I like, and I see it as getting the truth out there: " Is it even possible to be a voice for transformational change without a clear position on the brutal wars and occupations waged with U.S. weapons? Is it possible to have a credible critique of Wall Street’s impact on Black and other vulnerable communities in the U.S. without reckoning with the predatory and neocolonial impacts of the global financial system (including Washington-based institutions like the International Monetary Fund) on the debt-laden economies of African countries? Is it even possible to be a voice for transformational change without a clear position on the brutal wars and occupations waged with U.S. weapons? Even when our work is primarily focused nationally or hyperlocally, as it is for most organizers and writers, there is still a pressing need for an internationalist conception of power to inform our analysis. This is not a contradiction. In fact, it used to be foundational to all major radical and progressive movements, from the socialist internationals to Pan-Africanism and the global campaign to end apartheid in South Africa, from the “alter-globalization” movement to the international women’s movement. All understood that resistance needed to be global in order to win. Marcus Garvey, for instance, drew ideas and inspiration for Black liberation from the Irish struggle for independence. And Malcolm X famously observed that when racial minorities in the U.S. saw their struggle in a global context, they had the empowering realization that they were, in fact, part of a broad and powerful majority. We are not saying that this internationalist tradition is entirely absent in contemporary North American movements — there have been Black activist delegations to Colombia, Brazil, and Palestine in recent years. The climate justice movement is linked to frontline fights against fossil fuel extraction in every corner of the globe. And the immigrant rights movement is internationalist by definition. So are parts of the movement confronting sexual violence. We could go on. But it is also true that the atmosphere of intense political crisis in the United States is breeding a near myopic insularity among progressives and even some self-described radicals, one that is not just morally dangerous but strategically shortsighted. By defining our work exclusively as what goes on inside our borders, and losing touch with the rich anti-imperialist tradition, we risk depriving our movements of the revolutionary power that flows from cross-border exchanges of both wisdom and tactics. cont. "For instance, if U.S. President Donald Trump is seen in isolation from the rise of far-right forces around the world, we lose opportunities to learn from people in Brazil, Argentina, the Philippines, South Africa, India, Turkey, and Togo about how they are resisting their various strongmen. Because if we have learned anything over the past years of left-wing setbacks and disappointments, from Syriza in Greece to Maduro in Venezuela to the dashed dreams of the Arab Spring, it should be that the forces shaping national destinies are global. International lenders, Western military support for despots, or even a sudden drop in oil prices can all thwart or derail a liberation project that has defined itself too narrowly. Which is why it’s high time to change the subject from West vs. Coates, and begin the much more salient debate about what we all can do to rediscover the power of a genuinely internationalist, anti-imperialist worldview. A power that our movement ancestors well understood. Because there is simply no way to fight for a world in which Black lives truly matter without reckoning with the global forces that allow Black lives to disappear under waves in the Mediterranean, or to be mutilated and enslaved in countries like Libya, or to be snuffed out by debt imposed by Washington-based financial institutions. The same is true of climate change, which is hitting people in the global south first and worst. It has been reported that of the top 10 nations most impacted by climate change, six are on the continent of Africa. Similarly, there is no way to fight for the full funding of public schools and free universal health care inside the United States without confronting the vastly expanding share of the budget that goes to feeding the war machine. The immigrant rights movement is the most internationalist of our movements, but we still need to do more to connect the dots between rights and justice for migrants within countries like the United States and Canada, and the drivers of migration in places like Mexico and Ghana, whether it is pro-corporate trade and economic policies that destabilize domestic industries, or U.S.-backed wars, or drought deepened by climate change. Our movements simply cannot afford to stick to our various comfort zones or offload internationalism as someone else’s responsibility. The unending misery in Haiti may be the most vivid illustration of how today’s crises are all interrelated. On the island, serial natural disasters, some linked to climate change, are being layered on top of illegitimate foreign debts and coupled with gross negligence by the international aid industry, as well as acute U.S.-lead efforts to destabilize and under-develop the country. These compounding forces have led tens of thousands of Haitians to migrate to the United States in recent years, where they come face-to-face with Trump’s anti-Black, anti-immigrant agenda. Many are now fleeing to Canada, where hundreds if not thousands could face deportation. We can’t pry these various cross-border crises apart, nor should we. IN SHORT, THERE is no radicalism — Black or otherwise — that ends at the national boundaries of our countries, especially the wealthiest and most heavily armed nation on earth. From the worldwide reach of the financial sector to the rapidly expanding battlefield of U.S. Special Operations to the fact that carbon pollution respects no borders, the forces we are all up against are global. So, too, are the crises we face, from the rise of white supremacy, ethno-chauvinism, and authoritarian strongmen to the fact that more people are being forced from their homes than at any point since World War II. If our movements are to succeed, we will need both analysis and strategies that reflect these truths about our world. Some argue for staying in our lane, and undoubtedly there is a place for deep expertise. The political reality, however, is that the U.S. government doesn’t stay in its lane and never has — it spends public dollars using its military and economic might to turn the world into a battlefield, and it does so in the name of all of U.S. citizens. As a result, our movements simply cannot afford to stick to our various comfort zones or offload internationalism as someone else’s responsibility. To do so would be grossly negligent of our geopolitical power, our own agency, as well as our very real connections to people and places throughout the world. So when we build cross-sector alliances and cross-issue solidarity, those relationships cannot be confined to our own nations or even our own hemisphere — not in a world as interconnected as ours. We have to strive for them to be as global as the forces we are up against. We know this can seem overwhelming at a time when so many domestic crises are coming to a head and so many of us are being pushed beyond the breaking point. But it is worth remembering that our movement ancestors formed international alliances and placed their struggles within a global narrative not out of a sense of guilt or obligation, but because they understood that it made them stronger and more likely to win at home — and that strength terrified their enemies. Besides, the benefit of building a broad-based, multiracial social movement — which should surely be the end goal of all serious organizers and radical intellectuals — is that movements can have a division of labor, with different specialists focusing on different areas, united by broad agreement about overall vision and goals. That’s what a real movement looks like. The good news is that grassroots internationalism has never been easier. From cellphones to social media, we have opportunities to speak with one another across borders that our predecessors couldn’t have dreamed of. Similarly, tools that allow migrant families to stay connected with loved ones in different countries can also become conduits for social movements to hear news that the corporate media ignores. We are able, for instance, to learn about the pro-democracy movements growing in strength across the continent of Africa, as well as efforts to stop extrajudicial killings in countries like Brazil. Many would not have known that Black African migrants are being enslaved in Libya if it had not been for these same tools. And had they not known they wouldn’t have been able to engage in acts of necessary solidarity. So let’s leave narrow, nostalgic nationalism to Donald Trump and his delusional #MAGA supporters. The forces waging war on bodies and the planet are irreversibly global, and we are vastly stronger when we build global movements capable of confronting them at every turn.” On Dec 24, 2017, at 19:26, C G Estabrook > wrote: Munich, 1938 Forget Neville vs. Adolf — We All Have a Duty to Confront the Full Reach of Imperialism So, which side are you on? #TeamNeville or #TeamAdolf? Choose fast, preferably within seconds, and don’t come to this gunfight with a knife. No, like some nerdy Rambo, we want you greased up and loaded with ammo: your most painful character smears, your most “gotcha” evidence of past political infractions, a blitzkrieg of hyperlinks and, of course, an aircraft carrier of reaction GIFs. That’s pretty much how the online debate has played out ever since Neville Chamberlain published his piece in the British papers regarding Adolf Hitler (“Peace in Our Time’), an article you either regard as an outrageous injustice or an earth-shattering truth bomb, depending on which team you have chosen. We see it differently. We see this debate as a political opportunity, one that has far less to do with either of these brilliant men and everything to do with how, at a time of unfathomably high stakes, we are going to build a multiracial [Anglo-Saxon/German] human rights movement capable of beating back surging Aryan supremacy and rapidly concentrating corporate power. As women, we see the question like this: What are the duties of radicals and progressives inside relatively wealthy countries to the world beyond our national borders?... On Dec 24, 2017, at 9:59 AM, Karen Aram > wrote: This from the Intercept, maybe even better, once you get past the first paragraph or two. https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheintercept.com%2F2017%2F12%2F21%2Fcornel-west-ta-nehisi-coates-feud%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce9262a1eeaf147f5b4a508d54b4753b7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497692066417509&sdata=FIkCJnifeYSr5UW6HOEg5f3jvZuBtiEcwLnLKQwVHaA%3D&reserved=0 On Dec 24, 2017, at 06:19, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: The US government is killing people around the world, but not for white supremacy. https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fcommentisfree%2F2017%2Fdec%2F17%2Fta-nehisi-coates-neoliberal-black-struggle-cornel-west&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb2033471046f4b807ad508d54ad96e6a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497220078317095&sdata=pR%2BFOyrxOf8kdm80yFc88yZCaU5U6M6JEGbQu0YrY%2F8%3D&reserved=0 ‘...any analysis or vision of our world that omits the centrality of Wall Street power, US military policies, and the complex dynamics of class, gender, and sexuality in black America is too narrow and dangerously misleading. So it is with Ta-Nehisi Coates’ worldview. 'Coates rightly highlights the vicious legacy of white supremacy – past and present. He sees it everywhere and ever reminds us of its plundering effects. Unfortunately, he hardly keeps track of our fightback, and never connects this ugly legacy to the predatory capitalist practices, imperial policies (of war, occupation, detention, assassination) or the black elite’s refusal to confront poverty, patriarchy or transphobia. 'In short, Coates fetishizes white supremacy. He makes it almighty, magical and unremovable. What concerns me is his narrative of “defiance”. For Coates, defiance is narrowly aesthetic – a personal commitment to writing with no connection to collective action. It generates crocodile tears of neoliberals who have no intention of sharing power or giving up privilege. 'When he honestly asks: “How do you defy a power that insists on claiming you?”, the answer should be clear: they claim you because you are silent on what is a threat to their order (especially Wall Street and war). You defy them when you threaten that order…' ### _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb2033471046f4b807ad508d54ad96e6a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497220078317095&sdata=9JSekYssowbmrRlaC2OvJWLh0pqXSQFFOqQwyJbJnhw%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From naiman at justforeignpolicy.org Mon Dec 25 10:35:55 2017 From: naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (Robert Naiman) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2017 04:35:55 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Cornel West denounces fake left politics In-Reply-To: References: <0AEB3C02-C66A-4EFF-B5A7-45F11609C32C@gmail.com> <78244C1C-F52D-4168-9B00-08DC0822D71A@gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree with both of you. Carl is right to say that Cornel West is right in his dispute with Coates about Coates' failure to denounce U.S. imperialism. But, Karen is also right to try to promote the fact that Naomi Klein is right to try to use this moment to call out all American liberals to fulfill their duty to oppose U.S. imperialism. We're at a new, unprecedented moment now where the relationship between American liberals and U.S. imperialism is being questioned, is being challenged, is being put on the table, in a way that has not happened for the last fifty years, or at least has not happened very often in the last fifty years. Let's make the most of it. On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 9:39 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > This is the part from the article in the Intercept that I like, and I see > it as getting the truth out there: > > " Is it even possible to be a voice for transformational change without a > clear position on the brutal wars and occupations waged with U.S. weapons? > Is it possible to have a credible critique of Wall Street’s impact on Black > and other vulnerable communities in the U.S. without reckoning with the > predatory and neocolonial impacts of the global financial system (including > Washington-based institutions like the International Monetary Fund) on the > debt-laden economies of African countries? > > Is it even possible to be a voice for transformational change without a > clear position on the brutal wars and occupations waged with U.S. weapons? > Even when our work is primarily focused nationally or hyperlocally, as it > is for most organizers and writers, there is still a pressing need for an > internationalist conception of power to inform our analysis. This is not a > contradiction. In fact, it used to be foundational to all major radical and > progressive movements, from the socialist internationals to Pan-Africanism > and the global campaign to end apartheid in South Africa, from the > “alter-globalization” movement to the international women’s movement. All > understood that resistance needed to be global in order to win. Marcus > Garvey, for instance, drew ideas and inspiration for Black liberation from > the Irish struggle for independence. And Malcolm X famously observed that > when racial minorities in the U.S. saw their struggle in a global context, > they had the empowering realization that they were, in fact, part of a > broad and powerful majority. > > We are not saying that this internationalist tradition is entirely absent > in contemporary North American movements — there have been Black activist > delegations to Colombia, Brazil, and Palestine in recent years. The climate > justice movement is linked to frontline fights against fossil fuel > extraction in every corner of the globe. And the immigrant rights movement > is internationalist by definition. So are parts of the movement confronting > sexual violence. We could go on. > > But it is also true that the atmosphere of intense political crisis in the > United States is breeding a near myopic insularity among progressives and > even some self-described radicals, one that is not just morally dangerous > but strategically shortsighted. By defining our work exclusively as what > goes on inside our borders, and losing touch with the rich anti-imperialist > tradition, we risk depriving our movements of the revolutionary power that > flows from cross-border exchanges of both wisdom and tactics. cont. > > > "For instance, if U.S. President Donald Trump is seen in isolation from > the rise of far-right forces around the world, we lose opportunities to > learn from people in Brazil, Argentina, the Philippines, South Africa, > India, Turkey, and Togo about how they are resisting their various > strongmen. Because if we have learned anything over the past years of > left-wing setbacks and disappointments, from Syriza in Greece to Maduro in > Venezuela to the dashed dreams of the Arab Spring, it should be that the > forces shaping national destinies are global. International lenders, > Western military support for despots, or even a sudden drop in oil prices > can all thwart or derail a liberation project that has defined itself too > narrowly. > > Which is why it’s high time to change the subject from West vs. Coates, > and begin the much more salient debate about what we all can do to > rediscover the power of a genuinely internationalist, anti-imperialist > worldview. A power that our movement ancestors well understood. > > Because there is simply no way to fight for a world in which Black lives > truly matter without reckoning with the global forces that allow Black > lives to disappear under waves in the Mediterranean, or to be mutilated and > enslaved in countries like Libya, or to be snuffed out by debt imposed by > Washington-based financial institutions. > > The same is true of climate change, which is hitting people in the global > south first and worst. It has been reported that of the top 10 nations most > impacted by climate change, six are on the continent of Africa. Similarly, > there is no way to fight for the full funding of public schools and free > universal health care inside the United States without confronting the > vastly expanding share of the budget that goes to feeding the war machine. > > The immigrant rights movement is the most internationalist of our > movements, but we still need to do more to connect the dots between rights > and justice for migrants within countries like the United States and > Canada, and the drivers of migration in places like Mexico and Ghana, > whether it is pro-corporate trade and economic policies that destabilize > domestic industries, or U.S.-backed wars, or drought deepened by climate > change. > > Our movements simply cannot afford to stick to our various comfort zones > or offload internationalism as someone else’s responsibility. > The unending misery in Haiti may be the most vivid illustration of how > today’s crises are all interrelated. On the island, serial natural > disasters, some linked to climate change, are being layered on top of > illegitimate foreign debts and coupled with gross negligence by the > international aid industry, as well as acute U.S.-lead efforts to > destabilize and under-develop the country. These compounding forces have > led tens of thousands of Haitians to migrate to the United States in recent > years, where they come face-to-face with Trump’s anti-Black, anti-immigrant > agenda. Many are now fleeing to Canada, where hundreds if not thousands > could face deportation. We can’t pry these various cross-border crises > apart, nor should we. > > IN SHORT, THERE is no radicalism — Black or otherwise — that ends at the > national boundaries of our countries, especially the wealthiest and most > heavily armed nation on earth. From the worldwide reach of the financial > sector to the rapidly expanding battlefield of U.S. Special Operations to > the fact that carbon pollution respects no borders, the forces we are all > up against are global. So, too, are the crises we face, from the rise of > white supremacy, ethno-chauvinism, and authoritarian strongmen to the fact > that more people are being forced from their homes than at any point since > World War II. If our movements are to succeed, we will need both analysis > and strategies that reflect these truths about our world. > > Some argue for staying in our lane, and undoubtedly there is a place for > deep expertise. The political reality, however, is that the U.S. government > doesn’t stay in its lane and never has — it spends public dollars using its > military and economic might to turn the world into a battlefield, and it > does so in the name of all of U.S. citizens. > > As a result, our movements simply cannot afford to stick to our various > comfort zones or offload internationalism as someone else’s responsibility. > To do so would be grossly negligent of our geopolitical power, our own > agency, as well as our very real connections to people and places > throughout the world. So when we build cross-sector alliances and > cross-issue solidarity, those relationships cannot be confined to our own > nations or even our own hemisphere — not in a world as interconnected as > ours. We have to strive for them to be as global as the forces we are up > against. > > We know this can seem overwhelming at a time when so many domestic crises > are coming to a head and so many of us are being pushed beyond the breaking > point. But it is worth remembering that our movement ancestors formed > international alliances and placed their struggles within a global > narrative not out of a sense of guilt or obligation, but because they > understood that it made them stronger and more likely to win at home — and > that strength terrified their enemies. > > Besides, the benefit of building a broad-based, multiracial social > movement — which should surely be the end goal of all serious organizers > and radical intellectuals — is that movements can have a division of labor, > with different specialists focusing on different areas, united by broad > agreement about overall vision and goals. That’s what a real movement looks > like. > > The good news is that grassroots internationalism has never been easier. > From cellphones to social media, we have opportunities to speak with one > another across borders that our predecessors couldn’t have dreamed of. > Similarly, tools that allow migrant families to stay connected with loved > ones in different countries can also become conduits for social movements > to hear news that the corporate media ignores. We are able, for instance, > to learn about the pro-democracy movements growing in strength across the > continent of Africa, as well as efforts to stop extrajudicial killings in > countries like Brazil. Many would not have known that Black African > migrants are being enslaved in Libya if it had not been for these same > tools. And had they not known they wouldn’t have been able to engage in > acts of necessary solidarity. > > So let’s leave narrow, nostalgic nationalism to Donald Trump and his > delusional #MAGA supporters. > The forces waging war on bodies and the planet are irreversibly global, and > we are vastly stronger when we build global movements capable of > confronting them at every turn.” > > > > On Dec 24, 2017, at 19:26, C G Estabrook wrote: > > Munich, 1938 > > Forget Neville vs. Adolf — We All Have a Duty to Confront the Full Reach > of Imperialism > > So, which side are you on? #TeamNeville or #TeamAdolf? > > Choose fast, preferably within seconds, and don’t come to this gunfight > with a knife. No, like some nerdy Rambo, we want you greased up and > loaded with ammo: your most painful character smears, your most > “gotcha” evidence of past political infractions, a blitzkrieg of hyperlinks > and, of course, an aircraft carrier of reaction GIFs. > > That’s pretty much how the online debate has played out ever since > Neville Chamberlain published his piece in the British papers regarding > Adolf Hitler (“Peace in Our Time’), an article you either regard as an > outrageous injustice or an earth-shattering truth bomb, depending on which > team you have chosen. > > We see it differently. We see this debate as a political opportunity, one > that has far less to do with either of these brilliant men and everything > to do with how, at a time of unfathomably high stakes, we are going to > build a multiracial [Anglo-Saxon/German] human rights movement capable > of beating back surging Aryan supremacy and rapidly concentrating > corporate power. As women, we see the question like this: What are the > duties of radicals and progressives inside relatively wealthy countries to > the world beyond our national borders?... > > > On Dec 24, 2017, at 9:59 AM, Karen Aram wrote: > > This from the Intercept, maybe even better, once you get past the > first paragraph or two. > > > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > https%3A%2F%2Ftheintercept.com%2F2017%2F12%2F21%2Fcornel- > west-ta-nehisi-coates-feud%2F&data=02%7C01%7C% > 7Ce9262a1eeaf147f5b4a508d54b4753b7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa > aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497692066417509&sdata=FIkCJnifeYSr5UW6HOEg5f3jvZuBtiEcwLnLKQwVHaA%3D&reserved=0 > https%3A%2F%2Ftheintercept.com%2F2017%2F12%2F21%2Fcornel- > west-ta-nehisi-coates-feud%2F&data=02%7C01%7C% > 7Ce9262a1eeaf147f5b4a508d54b4753b7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa > aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497692066417509&sdata=FIkCJnifeYSr5UW6HOEg5f3jvZuBti > EcwLnLKQwVHaA%3D&reserved=0> > > > > On Dec 24, 2017, at 06:19, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > The US government is killing people around the world, but not for > white supremacy. > > https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F% > 2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fcommentisfree%2F2017% > 2Fdec%2F17%2Fta-nehisi-coates-neoliberal-black-struggle- > cornel-west&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb2033471046f4b807ad508d54ad96e6a% > 7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497220078317095&sdata=pR% > 2BFOyrxOf8kdm80yFc88yZCaU5U6M6JEGbQu0YrY%2F8%3D&reserved=0 > > ‘...any analysis or vision of our world that omits the centrality of Wall > Street power, US military policies, and the complex dynamics of class, > gender, and sexuality in black America is too narrow and dangerously > misleading. So it is with Ta-Nehisi Coates’ worldview. > > 'Coates rightly highlights the vicious legacy of white supremacy – past > and present. He sees it everywhere and ever reminds us of its > plundering effects. Unfortunately, he hardly keeps track of our fightback, > and never connects this ugly legacy to the predatory capitalist practices, > imperial policies (of war, occupation, detention, assassination) or the > black elite’s refusal to confront poverty, patriarchy or transphobia. > > 'In short, Coates fetishizes white supremacy. He makes it > almighty, magical and unremovable. What concerns me is his narrative > of “defiance”. For Coates, defiance is narrowly aesthetic – a > personal commitment to writing with no connection to collective action. It > generates crocodile tears of neoliberals who have no intention of sharing > power or giving up privilege. > > 'When he honestly asks: “How do you defy a power that insists on > claiming you?”, the answer should be clear: they claim you because you are > silent on what is a threat to their order (especially Wall Street and war). > You defy them when you threaten that order…' > > ### > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo% > 2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb2033471046f4b807ad508d54ad96e6a% > 7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497220078317095&sdata= > 9JSekYssowbmrRlaC2OvJWLh0pqXSQFFOqQwyJbJnhw%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Mon Dec 25 12:56:35 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2017 12:56:35 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Cornel West denounces fake left politics In-Reply-To: References: <0AEB3C02-C66A-4EFF-B5A7-45F11609C32C@gmail.com> <78244C1C-F52D-4168-9B00-08DC0822D71A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Bob, we actually agree on many things. I agree completely with Carl and Cornel’s assessment of Coates, and have said so many times. However to dismiss the authors of their article, because they are neo liberals is wrong. During the Vietnam War era, we didn’t ask “what are your politics” when organizing against our government, we focused on getting the word out to everyone and anyone, and uniting against the perpetrator of injustice. It was eventually affective. The divide and conquer tactics that the “elites” have utilized has been effective in keeping the very word “war” from being spoken. I’s time we stop squabbling among ourselves and unite in common cause against that which is sinking the ship known as planet earth. On Dec 25, 2017, at 02:35, Robert Naiman > wrote: I agree with both of you. Carl is right to say that Cornel West is right in his dispute with Coates about Coates' failure to denounce U.S. imperialism. But, Karen is also right to try to promote the fact that Naomi Klein is right to try to use this moment to call out all American liberals to fulfill their duty to oppose U.S. imperialism. We're at a new, unprecedented moment now where the relationship between American liberals and U.S. imperialism is being questioned, is being challenged, is being put on the table, in a way that has not happened for the last fifty years, or at least has not happened very often in the last fifty years. Let's make the most of it. On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 9:39 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: This is the part from the article in the Intercept that I like, and I see it as getting the truth out there: " Is it even possible to be a voice for transformational change without a clear position on the brutal wars and occupations waged with U.S. weapons? Is it possible to have a credible critique of Wall Street’s impact on Black and other vulnerable communities in the U.S. without reckoning with the predatory and neocolonial impacts of the global financial system (including Washington-based institutions like the International Monetary Fund) on the debt-laden economies of African countries? Is it even possible to be a voice for transformational change without a clear position on the brutal wars and occupations waged with U.S. weapons? Even when our work is primarily focused nationally or hyperlocally, as it is for most organizers and writers, there is still a pressing need for an internationalist conception of power to inform our analysis. This is not a contradiction. In fact, it used to be foundational to all major radical and progressive movements, from the socialist internationals to Pan-Africanism and the global campaign to end apartheid in South Africa, from the “alter-globalization” movement to the international women’s movement. All understood that resistance needed to be global in order to win. Marcus Garvey, for instance, drew ideas and inspiration for Black liberation from the Irish struggle for independence. And Malcolm X famously observed that when racial minorities in the U.S. saw their struggle in a global context, they had the empowering realization that they were, in fact, part of a broad and powerful majority. We are not saying that this internationalist tradition is entirely absent in contemporary North American movements — there have been Black activist delegations to Colombia, Brazil, and Palestine in recent years. The climate justice movement is linked to frontline fights against fossil fuel extraction in every corner of the globe. And the immigrant rights movement is internationalist by definition. So are parts of the movement confronting sexual violence. We could go on. But it is also true that the atmosphere of intense political crisis in the United States is breeding a near myopic insularity among progressives and even some self-described radicals, one that is not just morally dangerous but strategically shortsighted. By defining our work exclusively as what goes on inside our borders, and losing touch with the rich anti-imperialist tradition, we risk depriving our movements of the revolutionary power that flows from cross-border exchanges of both wisdom and tactics. cont. "For instance, if U.S. President Donald Trump is seen in isolation from the rise of far-right forces around the world, we lose opportunities to learn from people in Brazil, Argentina, the Philippines, South Africa, India, Turkey, and Togo about how they are resisting their various strongmen. Because if we have learned anything over the past years of left-wing setbacks and disappointments, from Syriza in Greece to Maduro in Venezuela to the dashed dreams of the Arab Spring, it should be that the forces shaping national destinies are global. International lenders, Western military support for despots, or even a sudden drop in oil prices can all thwart or derail a liberation project that has defined itself too narrowly. Which is why it’s high time to change the subject from West vs. Coates, and begin the much more salient debate about what we all can do to rediscover the power of a genuinely internationalist, anti-imperialist worldview. A power that our movement ancestors well understood. Because there is simply no way to fight for a world in which Black lives truly matter without reckoning with the global forces that allow Black lives to disappear under waves in the Mediterranean, or to be mutilated and enslaved in countries like Libya, or to be snuffed out by debt imposed by Washington-based financial institutions. The same is true of climate change, which is hitting people in the global south first and worst. It has been reported that of the top 10 nations most impacted by climate change, six are on the continent of Africa. Similarly, there is no way to fight for the full funding of public schools and free universal health care inside the United States without confronting the vastly expanding share of the budget that goes to feeding the war machine. The immigrant rights movement is the most internationalist of our movements, but we still need to do more to connect the dots between rights and justice for migrants within countries like the United States and Canada, and the drivers of migration in places like Mexico and Ghana, whether it is pro-corporate trade and economic policies that destabilize domestic industries, or U.S.-backed wars, or drought deepened by climate change. Our movements simply cannot afford to stick to our various comfort zones or offload internationalism as someone else’s responsibility. The unending misery in Haiti may be the most vivid illustration of how today’s crises are all interrelated. On the island, serial natural disasters, some linked to climate change, are being layered on top of illegitimate foreign debts and coupled with gross negligence by the international aid industry, as well as acute U.S.-lead efforts to destabilize and under-develop the country. These compounding forces have led tens of thousands of Haitians to migrate to the United States in recent years, where they come face-to-face with Trump’s anti-Black, anti-immigrant agenda. Many are now fleeing to Canada, where hundreds if not thousands could face deportation. We can’t pry these various cross-border crises apart, nor should we. IN SHORT, THERE is no radicalism — Black or otherwise — that ends at the national boundaries of our countries, especially the wealthiest and most heavily armed nation on earth. From the worldwide reach of the financial sector to the rapidly expanding battlefield of U.S. Special Operations to the fact that carbon pollution respects no borders, the forces we are all up against are global. So, too, are the crises we face, from the rise of white supremacy, ethno-chauvinism, and authoritarian strongmen to the fact that more people are being forced from their homes than at any point since World War II. If our movements are to succeed, we will need both analysis and strategies that reflect these truths about our world. Some argue for staying in our lane, and undoubtedly there is a place for deep expertise. The political reality, however, is that the U.S. government doesn’t stay in its lane and never has — it spends public dollars using its military and economic might to turn the world into a battlefield, and it does so in the name of all of U.S. citizens. As a result, our movements simply cannot afford to stick to our various comfort zones or offload internationalism as someone else’s responsibility. To do so would be grossly negligent of our geopolitical power, our own agency, as well as our very real connections to people and places throughout the world. So when we build cross-sector alliances and cross-issue solidarity, those relationships cannot be confined to our own nations or even our own hemisphere — not in a world as interconnected as ours. We have to strive for them to be as global as the forces we are up against. We know this can seem overwhelming at a time when so many domestic crises are coming to a head and so many of us are being pushed beyond the breaking point. But it is worth remembering that our movement ancestors formed international alliances and placed their struggles within a global narrative not out of a sense of guilt or obligation, but because they understood that it made them stronger and more likely to win at home — and that strength terrified their enemies. Besides, the benefit of building a broad-based, multiracial social movement — which should surely be the end goal of all serious organizers and radical intellectuals — is that movements can have a division of labor, with different specialists focusing on different areas, united by broad agreement about overall vision and goals. That’s what a real movement looks like. The good news is that grassroots internationalism has never been easier. From cellphones to social media, we have opportunities to speak with one another across borders that our predecessors couldn’t have dreamed of. Similarly, tools that allow migrant families to stay connected with loved ones in different countries can also become conduits for social movements to hear news that the corporate media ignores. We are able, for instance, to learn about the pro-democracy movements growing in strength across the continent of Africa, as well as efforts to stop extrajudicial killings in countries like Brazil. Many would not have known that Black African migrants are being enslaved in Libya if it had not been for these same tools. And had they not known they wouldn’t have been able to engage in acts of necessary solidarity. So let’s leave narrow, nostalgic nationalism to Donald Trump and his delusional #MAGA supporters. The forces waging war on bodies and the planet are irreversibly global, and we are vastly stronger when we build global movements capable of confronting them at every turn.” On Dec 24, 2017, at 19:26, C G Estabrook > wrote: Munich, 1938 Forget Neville vs. Adolf — We All Have a Duty to Confront the Full Reach of Imperialism So, which side are you on? #TeamNeville or #TeamAdolf? Choose fast, preferably within seconds, and don’t come to this gunfight with a knife. No, like some nerdy Rambo, we want you greased up and loaded with ammo: your most painful character smears, your most “gotcha” evidence of past political infractions, a blitzkrieg of hyperlinks and, of course, an aircraft carrier of reaction GIFs. That’s pretty much how the online debate has played out ever since Neville Chamberlain published his piece in the British papers regarding Adolf Hitler (“Peace in Our Time’), an article you either regard as an outrageous injustice or an earth-shattering truth bomb, depending on which team you have chosen. We see it differently. We see this debate as a political opportunity, one that has far less to do with either of these brilliant men and everything to do with how, at a time of unfathomably high stakes, we are going to build a multiracial [Anglo-Saxon/German] human rights movement capable of beating back surging Aryan supremacy and rapidly concentrating corporate power. As women, we see the question like this: What are the duties of radicals and progressives inside relatively wealthy countries to the world beyond our national borders?... On Dec 24, 2017, at 9:59 AM, Karen Aram > wrote: This from the Intercept, maybe even better, once you get past the first paragraph or two. https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheintercept.com%2F2017%2F12%2F21%2Fcornel-west-ta-nehisi-coates-feud%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce9262a1eeaf147f5b4a508d54b4753b7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497692066417509&sdata=FIkCJnifeYSr5UW6HOEg5f3jvZuBtiEcwLnLKQwVHaA%3D&reserved=0 On Dec 24, 2017, at 06:19, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: The US government is killing people around the world, but not for white supremacy. https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fcommentisfree%2F2017%2Fdec%2F17%2Fta-nehisi-coates-neoliberal-black-struggle-cornel-west&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb2033471046f4b807ad508d54ad96e6a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497220078317095&sdata=pR%2BFOyrxOf8kdm80yFc88yZCaU5U6M6JEGbQu0YrY%2F8%3D&reserved=0 ‘...any analysis or vision of our world that omits the centrality of Wall Street power, US military policies, and the complex dynamics of class, gender, and sexuality in black America is too narrow and dangerously misleading. So it is with Ta-Nehisi Coates’ worldview. 'Coates rightly highlights the vicious legacy of white supremacy – past and present. He sees it everywhere and ever reminds us of its plundering effects. Unfortunately, he hardly keeps track of our fightback, and never connects this ugly legacy to the predatory capitalist practices, imperial policies (of war, occupation, detention, assassination) or the black elite’s refusal to confront poverty, patriarchy or transphobia. 'In short, Coates fetishizes white supremacy. He makes it almighty, magical and unremovable. What concerns me is his narrative of “defiance”. For Coates, defiance is narrowly aesthetic – a personal commitment to writing with no connection to collective action. It generates crocodile tears of neoliberals who have no intention of sharing power or giving up privilege. 'When he honestly asks: “How do you defy a power that insists on claiming you?”, the answer should be clear: they claim you because you are silent on what is a threat to their order (especially Wall Street and war). You defy them when you threaten that order…' ### _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb2033471046f4b807ad508d54ad96e6a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497220078317095&sdata=9JSekYssowbmrRlaC2OvJWLh0pqXSQFFOqQwyJbJnhw%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Tue Dec 26 20:27:41 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2017 20:27:41 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] News from Neptune Message-ID: https://youtu.be/0_GkW3xF7xs From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Dec 27 03:26:08 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 03:26:08 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Democratic Party witch hunt targeting Green Party candidate Message-ID: * Print * Leaflet * Feedback * Share » Democratic Party witch-hunters target Green Party candidate Jill Stein 23 December 2017 The Socialist Equality Party condemns the targeting of Jill Stein, the Green Party presidential candidate in the 2016 election, by the neo-McCarthyite witch-hunters on the Senate Intelligence Committee. The SEP has fundamental political differences with the Green Party. However, we unequivocally defend the constitutional right of the Green Party to conduct its work and campaign for office unmolested by the government and its police and intelligence agencies. The attack on Stein, spearheaded by the Democratic Party, is an unconstitutional attempt to delegitimize and suppress political opposition to the monopoly of the capitalist two-party system. Stein warned in a statement that investigations are being “used to intimidate and silence principled opposition to the political establishment” in a climate of “attacks on our civil liberties, with the emergence of censorship in social media and the press, criminalization of protest, militarization of police and massive expansion of the surveillance state.” On Monday, Stein confirmed that Senate investigators had demanded that she produce documents related to her alleged interactions with Russia. Her suspicious activity, according to the congressional investigators, consisted of attending a dinner celebrating the tenth anniversary of RT, the only TV network that gave her campaign any significant coverage, at which Russian President Vladimir Putin was also present. Stein has absolutely nothing to answer for to the US Congress. As a presidential candidate, she was fully within her rights not only to attend a media event, but to meet and have discussions with any other public figure, foreign or domestic. Is anyone expected to believe that neither Hillary Clinton nor her campaign had contact with any political leaders of other countries? On September 19, 2016, for example, Clinton met publicly with three foreign heads of state, including Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, installed in a fascist-led putsch, and Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, the butcher of Cairo who drowned the Egyptian revolution in blood. The investigations into allegations of Russian “meddling” are based on unfounded claims that Russia manipulated the US elections. However, the fact that Sisi and Poroshenko are in power exposes the extent to which the United States meddles in the political affairs of every country all over the world, staging coups, propping up dictatorships and bombing and invading countries at will. In addition to the dinner hosted by RT, Stein, according to ranking committee Democrat Mark Warner, had “very complimentary things to say about Julian Assange.” And this is now evidence of potentially criminal activity? Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks, is a journalist who has helped expose the crimes of the US political establishment. For having spoken out publicly in support of a political prisoner and dissident, Stein is threatened with being hauled before a congressional committee as if she were involved in treasonous activity. This is the Orwellian reality of America in 2017, ruled by two right-wing, oligarchic parties that can and will tolerate no political opposition. The entire premise of “Russian collusion” is made up out of whole cloth, aimed at explaining away the Democrats’ own hemorrhaging support among broad sections of the population and pinning their electoral defeat on the very existence of an alternative to the two-party system. In her book, What Happened, Clinton fumed that “the Russians targeted propaganda to undecided voters and to ‘soft’ Clinton supporters who might be persuaded to stay home or support a third-party candidate.” She continued, “Perhaps this is one reason why third-party candidates received more than five million more votes in 2016 than they had in 2012. That was an aim of both the Russians and the Republicans, and it worked,” resulting in Clinton’s loss. Now, the Democrats are using their institutional power to pursue a vendetta against a party they blame for having contributed to their electoral defeat. The reason the third party vote grew in 2016 was not Russian “meddling,” but because millions of people hated the candidates of the two big business parties. The Democratic Party is leading the attack on political opposition within the United States because it feels itself under siege from popular sentiment, which is on the whole moving to the left. For this reason, the Democratic Party has lashed out with a series of provocations, from allegations of Russian “meddling” to the hysteria surrounding sexual misconduct. All the while, it has created the most favorable possible conditions for the Republicans to pass a massive reduction in corporate taxes, a policy that enjoys bipartisan support. The old tropes of the most right-wing sections of the Republican Party at the height of Cold War McCarthyism—in which the foreign policy setbacks of US imperialism and all political dissent were presented as the result of a conspiracy of foreign infiltrators and left-wing agitators—have been adopted by the Democratic Party. The Senate’s investigation of the Green Party comes as figures like Warner and House Intelligence Committee ranking Democrat Adam Schiff are pressing for mass political censorship by technology companies, and as the FCC has ruled to revoke net neutrality, giving internet service providers free reign to block access to oppositional web sites. The targeting of the Green Party marks a new stage in the drive to criminalize dissent and political opposition within the United States as the ruling elite prepares yet another onslaught on the social rights of the working class and draws up plans for “great power” conflicts that threaten a new world war. Statement of the Political Committee of the Socialist Equality Party (US) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 03:49:22 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2017 21:49:22 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] No confidence in Mueller Message-ID: The estimable Coleen Rowley, from six months ago: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/conflicts-of-interest-and-ethics-robert-mueller-and_us_5936a148e4b033940169cdc8?ncid=engmodushpmg00000003 '...Mueller was even OK with the CIA conducting torture programs after his own agents warned against participation. Agents were simply instructed not to document such torture, and any “war crimes files” were made to disappear. Not only did “collect it all” surveillance and torture programs continue, but Mueller’s (and then Comey’s) FBI later worked to prosecute NSA and CIA whistleblowers who revealed these illegalities... 'It seems clear that based on his history and close “partnership” with Comey, “one of the closest working relationships the top ranks of the Justice Department have ever seen,” Mueller was chosen as Special Counsel not because he has integrity but because he will do what the powerful want him to do. He didn’t speak the truth about a war he knew to be unjustified. He didn’t speak out against torture. He didn’t speak out against unconstitutional surveillance. And he didn’t tell the truth about 9/11. He is just their man.’ —CGE From cgestabrook at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 13:17:46 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 07:17:46 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Antifaschismus - ein politischer Wiederholungszwang Message-ID: The US political establishment disingenuously encourages opposition to ‘fascism' in its feverish campaign to ensure that the administration continue the neocon (pro-war) and neolib (pro-Wall St.) policies of the previous administration (as it is doing). That’s like encouraging abolitionism as a current political program. Correct, of course, but irrelevant. —CGE From brussel at illinois.edu Wed Dec 27 17:12:53 2017 From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 17:12:53 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_=5BNew_post=5D_Politics_in_this_?= =?utf-8?q?country_has_never_felt_the_way_the_it_does_now=E2=80=A6?= References: <84568989.9171.0@wordpress.com> Message-ID: <2822706F-4CA1-4BC0-9EDC-55481545833A@illinois.edu> This needs only a very little updating. Begin forwarded message: From: Corey Robin > Subject: [New post] Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… Date: December 25, 2017 at 6:19:58 PM CST To: mkb3 at mac.com New post on Corey Robin [http://s0.wp.com/i/emails/blavatar.png] Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… by Corey Robin "The Vietnam War years were the most 'politicized' of my life. I spent my days during this war writing fiction, none of which on the face of it would appear to connect to politics. But by being 'politicized' I mean something other than writing about politics or even taking direct political action. I mean something akin to what ordinary citizens experience in countries like Czechoslovakia or Chile: a daily awareness of government as a coercive force, its continuous presence in one's thoughts as far more than just an institutionalized system of regulations and controls. In sharp contrast to Chileans or Czechs, we hadn't personally to fear for our safety and could be as outspoken as we liked, but this did not diminish the sense of living in a country with a government out of control and wholly in business for itself. Reading the morning New York Times and the afternoon New York Post, watching the seven and then the eleven o'clock TV news—all of which I did ritualistically—became for me like living on a steady diet of Dostoevsky. Rather than fearing for the well-being of my own kin and country, I now felt toward America's war mission as I had toward the Axis goals in World War II. One even began to use the word 'America' as though it was the name not of the place where one had been raised to which one had a patriotic attachment, but of a foreign invader that had conquered the country and with whom one refused, to the best of one's strength and ability, to collaborate. Suddenly America had turned into 'them'—and with this sense of dispossession came the virulence of feeling and rhetoric that often characterized the anti-war movement. ...Of course there have been others as venal and lawless [as Richard Nixon] in American politics, but even a Joe McCarthy was more identifiable as human clay than this guy is. The wonder of Nixon (and contemporary America) is that a man so transparently fraudulent, if not on the edge of mental disorder, could ever have won the confidence and approval of a people who generally require at least a little something of the 'human touch' in their leaders. It's strange that someone so unlike the types most admired in the average voter...could have passed himself off to this Saturday Evening Post America as, of all things, an American." —Philip Roth, 1974 Corey Robin | December 25, 2017 at 7:19 pm | Tags: Philip Roth, Richard Nixon | Categories: Literature, The Right | URL: https://wp.me/p5IQfX-2nV Comment See all comments Unsubscribe to no longer receive posts from Corey Robin. Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions. Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://coreyrobin.com/2017/12/25/politics-in-this-country-has-never-felt-the-way-the-it-does-now/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r-szoke at illinois.edu Wed Dec 27 20:00:28 2017 From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 20:00:28 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fake news? Message-ID: <3770A245-54FA-491F-B995-C8CBF3242D6A@illinois.edu> In the [fake] news: Which will it be this time: do we spin this as Vox populi vox dei, or public opinion has been corrupted by propaganda & FAKE NEWS from the lying liberal media of the Deep State conspiracy? Obama edges out Trump as most-admired man https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/27/most-admired-man-woman-gallup-319367 Plus, from a widely-rumored CIA front: The world's 500 wealthiest people got $1 trillion richer in 2017 http://wapo.st/2l8c5ob?tid=ss_mail&utm_term=.b2b57860aaa8 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Wed Dec 27 22:03:49 2017 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 16:03:49 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5BNew_post=5D_Politics_in_this_country?= =?utf-8?q?_has_never_felt_the_way_the_it_does_now=E2=80=A6?= In-Reply-To: <2822706F-4CA1-4BC0-9EDC-55481545833A@illinois.edu> References: <84568989.9171.0@wordpress.com> <2822706F-4CA1-4BC0-9EDC-55481545833A@illinois.edu> Message-ID: I disagree: all analogies limp, and Nixon/Trump is particularly spavined. Roth was writing at the high point of the social democratic arc that began with the New Deal. Nixon’s was the most liberal US administration since WWII, despite Nixon’s own views. (Even a guaranteed annual income was proposed by the administration but defeated by Democrats: see e.g., Daniel Patrick Moynihan, "The Politics of a Guaranteed Income: The Nixon Administration and the Family Assistance Plan" [1973].) Neoliberalism, the conscious, calculated construction of American business, was just getting underway. (See e.g., “The Crisis of Democracy: On the Governability of Democracies,” a 1975 report written by Michel Crozier, Samuel P. Huntington, and Joji Watanuki for the Trilateral Commission; it says that after ‘the sixties” the problems of governance in the US "stem from an excess of democracy" and thus advocates "to restore the prestige and authority of central government institutions” and the profitability of business.) Neoconservatism was being constructed, primarily by partisans of Israel who feared that the anti-war sentiment engendered by war in SE Asia would carry over into the Mideast. (By 1969 about 70% of the US public had come to regard the Vietnam war as “fundamentally wrong and immoral,” not “a mistake.”) Inequality in the US, on the decline since 1929, had reached its low point ca. 1970; the curve turned up, accelerated, and has now reached levels equivalent to those of 1929. For many Americans,”make America great again” means restoring the economic situation and life chances their parents knew in "les trente glorieuses" (1945-75), as Piketty calls those years. Trump was the first major party candidate in 40 years to attack the neoconservative (more war) and neoliberal (more inequality) policies that dominated all administrations from Carter’s through Obama’s; that’s in part why he was elected - as an inchoate protest against war and immiseration - against a pro-war and pro-Wall St. Democratic candidate. (See e.g., >.) —CGE > On Dec 27, 2017, at 11:12 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > This needs only a very little updating. > >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> From: Corey Robin > >> Subject: [New post] Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… >> Date: December 25, 2017 at 6:19:58 PM CST >> To: mkb3 at mac.com >> >> New post on Corey Robin >> >> >> Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… by Corey Robin >> "The Vietnam War years were the most 'politicized' of my life. I spent my days during this war writing fiction, none of which on the face of it would appear to connect to politics. But by being 'politicized' I mean something other than writing about politics or even taking direct political action. I mean something akin to what ordinary citizens experience in countries like Czechoslovakia or Chile: a daily awareness of government as a coercive force, its continuous presence in one's thoughts as far more than just an institutionalized system of regulations and controls. In sharp contrast to Chileans or Czechs, we hadn't personally to fear for our safety and could be as outspoken as we liked, but this did not diminish the sense of living in a country with a government out of control and wholly in business for itself. Reading the morning New York Times and the afternoon New York Post, watching the seven and then the eleven o'clock TV news—all of which I did ritualistically—became for me like living on a steady diet of Dostoevsky. Rather than fearing for the well-being of my own kin and country, I now felt toward America's war mission as I had toward the Axis goals in World War II. One even began to use the word 'America' as though it was the name not of the place where one had been raised to which one had a patriotic attachment, but of a foreign invader that had conquered the country and with whom one refused, to the best of one's strength and ability, to collaborate. Suddenly America had turned into 'them'—and with this sense of dispossession came the virulence of feeling and rhetoric that often characterized the anti-war movement. >> >> ...Of course there have been others as venal and lawless [as Richard Nixon] in American politics, but even a Joe McCarthy was more identifiable as human clay than this guy is. The wonder of Nixon (and contemporary America) is that a man so transparently fraudulent, if not on the edge of mental disorder, could ever have won the confidence and approval of a people who generally require at least a little something of the 'human touch' in their leaders. It's strange that someone so unlike the types most admired in the average voter...could have passed himself off to this Saturday Evening Post America as, of all things, an American." >> >> —Philip Roth, 1974 >> >> Corey Robin | December 25, 2017 at 7:19 pm | Tags: Philip Roth , Richard Nixon | Categories: Literature , The Right | URL: https://wp.me/p5IQfX-2nV >> Comment See all comments >> >> Unsubscribe to no longer receive posts from Corey Robin. >> Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions . >> >> Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: >> http://coreyrobin.com/2017/12/25/politics-in-this-country-has-never-felt-the-way-the-it-does-now/ >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Thu Dec 28 03:29:12 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 03:29:12 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?FW=3A_Reverberations_from_Trump?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_Jerusalem_Move?= Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 9:27 PM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: FW: Reverberations from Trump’s Jerusalem Move Reverberations from Trump’s Jerusalem Move December 27, 2017 One ironic benefit from Donald Trump’s presidency is that the world is showing more independence against U.S. edicts, such as the recent rebuff of Trump’s decision to move the U.S. embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, as Dennis J Bernstein reports. By Dennis J Bernstein The U.N. General Assembly’s rebuff of overt threats of economic retaliation from President Trump — in the overwhelming repudiation of his decision to move the U.S. embassy in Israel to Jerusalem — marked a rare show of independence from Washington. Despite President Trump’s threats, the vote against the U.S. position was 128 to 9, with 35 abstentions. [https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/37501285552_1d632d7ec2_k1-300x214.jpg] The United Nations logo in the General Assembly Hall. (Official U.N. Photo) I spoke about the significance of the vote with Professor Francis Boyle, a scholar and long-time pro-Palestinian activist, who has been deeply engaged in the Mideast peace process and various negotiations over the last 30 years. Boyle is a professor of international law at the University of Illinois’ College of Law. He served as a legal advisor to the Palestinian Liberation Organization. Dennis Bernstein: Before we jump into this, I would like people to know a little bit more about your background, because you’re the perfect person to hit this subject at this time. Just say a little bit more about your work with the Palestinians. Francis Boyle: Right. Well, starting in 1987, at [the Palestinians] request, I made a speech at the United Nations on the 20th anniversary of the Six-Day War. And, in this speech, I outlined to them an agenda for establishing their statehood, including, at some point, invoking the Uniting for Peace Resolution. So, they liked what I had to say and asked me to write it up in a memo, which I did. You can read it in my book “Palestine, Palestinians and International Law.” And they then carried out my recommendation in their Declaration of Independence of 15 November, 1988. And I was their legal advisor on all of that. My memorandum became their position paper. And I’ve worked with them since then. Today, the State of Palestine is recognized du jour by 136 states, the last time I looked. And it also has U.N. observer state status now at the United Nations along the lines that Switzerland had before it became a full-fledged U.N. member state. […] And certainly the Palestinians have publicly stated that they can, at some point in the future, invoke the Uniting for Peace Resolution to obtain their admission to the United Nations as a full-fledged U.N. member state. They said that’s next on the agenda. I guess we have to see what happens here. I really can’t say, but they said they’re renewing that struggle in January [2018], after the dust settles here. DB: Okay, now let’s talk about the significance of the vote today [Dec. 21], which has a lot to do with Jerusalem. And, talk about it, if you will, in the context of the Uniting for Peace procedure because this gives it more power or more of a focus. FB: Well, that is correct. When Uniting for Peace started out, back during the days of the Korean War, the Soviet Union proceeded to exercise a veto. And the United States under Secretary of State Dean Acheson – back in those days we controlled the General Assembly – put forward the Uniting for Peace Resolution in the General Assembly to circumvent the Soviet veto. And then [the US] used it to impose fairly terrible economic sanctions against North Korea that continue until today. And, over the years, the Uniting for Peace procedure was approved by the International Court of Justice in the [Unclear 05:48] advisory opinion in 1962. And I did, I was the one who informed the Palestinians about the Uniting for Peace procedure and that we need to go forward and use it. And they have used it. And [the vote on Dec. 21] was yet another example. The mainstream news media is dismissing this as nothing more than symbolic. You know, Dennis, if it were nothing more than symbolic then why did Nikki Haley get up there and threaten to break the legs of everyone in the world, if they voted for it, and likewise, Trump make his thuggish threat, as well, at his last cabinet meetings? So it’s far more than symbolic. Under Uniting for Peace the General Assembly cannot require states to do anything. But they can certainly authorize them. And what happens here with this resolution under Uniting for Peace is that it really solidified the international consensus on Jerusalem. As you note, we discussed this before, when Trump announced his new policy, and invited other states to follow moving the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem and recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, which it definitely is not, whether west Jerusalem or east Jerusalem. And, this vote today really solidifies that international consensus. So that is a positive thing, but, obviously it’s going to have to be followed up by more steps by the Palestinians. Again, my advice is the next stage here is to use United for Peace to have Palestine admitted to the U.N. itself. But, that’s under consideration. We’ll have to see what they do. DB: And what, exactly, did that resolution say? It was reinforcing earlier Security Council resolutions. What exactly are we talking about here? FB: Well, the way the United States government set it up under Secretary of State Dean Acheson, was that in the event there is a matter affecting international peace and security, and at least one of the permanent members at the Security Council exercises a veto power over a resolution on that matter, when the resolution is introduced in the Security Council, the matter is then turned over to the United Nations General Assembly for action, for the General Assembly to decide what to do about it, in accordance with a two-thirds vote. So, the United States government originally introduced this. We conceived it and we applied it, regretfully, to North Korea. And those economic sanctions are still strangling North Korea today, as we talk. And Trump is trying to escalate them. But in any event, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I think it’s only history, sort of cosmic blowback here, that a generation later the Palestinians and most of the rest of the world are using Uniting for Peace against the United States. This is our baby, as it were, and they are sticking it back to us. DB: Alright, now let’s just talk a little bit about Jerusalem and what’s at stake here. Last we spoke, one of the things you said, and it’s very concerning and absolutely true, is that you were now fearing the deaths again of more Palestinians in this fight for liberation. FB: And, it’s true, Dennis, […] in fairness, that Jews might die too. DB: Yes. And things have been happening, clearly Palestinians have been dying. There have been attacks in the Gaza Strip. There have been some incidents from Palestinians coming at Jews, that’s a fact as well. But, always, it’s the Palestinians that lead the dying. And what I want you to talk about here is, because people still do not get it: What is at stake in Jerusalem here? What exactly is this about? And why will this be the line of resistance? FB: Because, as you know, Jerusalem is the headquarters for the three great monotheistic faiths: Islam, Judaism, Christianity. And, especially, for the Muslims the Haram al-Sharif, the Noble Sanctuary, it’s the plateau over there. And that plateau is considered to be sacred. They have on there the Al-Aqsa Mosque, where Muslims used to direct their prayers before Mecca Medina. There is the Dome of the Rock where it is said Mohammed ascended into Heaven. And then you have the El Burka, which is the sort of “stand on the side” where Mohammed is said to have tied up his horse, when he miraculously flew from Arabia to Jerusalem, to make his ascent into Heaven. So, on the Jewish side, you have the Wailing Wall. And, despite when everything is said, this is still Palestinian. It is protected under the Geneva Conventions, and also there’s a 1953 convention to which Israel is a party, protecting cultural religious sites in times of war. Although, I believe, that could easily be negotiated by simply setting up an easement so that Jews could go worship at the Wailing Wall. I don’t think Palestinians have any great desire to stop that, one way or the other. And then Christianity, of course, you have all the holy sites there, the Nativity, the Church of the Nativity, the Holy Sepulchre, etc. So, it’s really the flashpoint for these three religions. Although, again, I did devise a proposal for the Palestinians that was approved by the PLO, on sharing Jerusalem as a capital between both Israel and Palestine, the two states. That would have to be subject to approval by the Security Council because Jerusalem still has a separate status under international laws of corpus separatum. But that would probably be approved. And you can read that proposal that did have the approval of the PLO in my book “Palestine, Palestinians and International Law” along with the original memorandum I did for them going back to 1987. And then the Chair of the Palestinian delegation to the Middle East peace negotiations, my client and friend, the late, great Dr. Haidar Abdel-Shafi, instructed me to draw up the counter offer to Israel’s Oslo Bantustan [the Oslo Accords of 1993], which I did do. And that is published in there with Dr. Abdel-Shafi’s permission. It was clear at the beginning that Oslo was pretty much a Bantustan, and so I advised all the Palestinians to that effect. And Abdel-Shafi then instructed me to come up with their counter offer which I did do. But that position did not prevail. Dr. Abdel-Shafi and I fought against Oslo to the bitter end. Then we lost, so there you go. DB: Now, staying with Jerusalem, I think the statement made by Trump, even though it’s obviously a continuum of U.S. policy – Obama’s ambassador [Dan Shapiro] was no better, if not worse–but what’s going on on the ground in Jerusalem in the context of this statement, in other words, the continuing expansion of house demolitions, the attempt to put security devices, and set up a place to block Muslims from going to pray before making them go through a metal detector..that was going on in the recent past. The heat on this situation in Jerusalem has been high before this announcement. So, this is just sort of pushing it right at the edge, isn’t it? FB: Right. Dennis, it’s really emboldening Netanyahu and his religious fanatics over there, who, by the way were complicit in the assassination of Prime Minister [Yitzhak] Rabin. Who was first and, so far, the only Prime Minister they’ve had over there who was interested in negotiating peace with the Palestinians and Syria, which is why they murdered him. [https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/barbed-wire-2446112_1280-300x225.jpg] One of Islam’s holiest sites the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, seen through barbed wire. So, yeah, this simply emboldens these people. And the real flashpoint is… Netanyahu permitting these fanatical, racist settlers to go onto Haram Al-Sharif [Temple Mount] itself, and storm Al-Aqsa Mosque. And, that is happening repeatedly. And it’s extremely dangerous and highly provocative. Because, at the end of the day, these people want to destroy Al-Aqsa and build their so-called third temple. And it would be a total catastrophe if this happens, because you’d have 1.5 billion Muslims in the world rising up in unison over this. But that’s the real danger right now, I think, is the emboldenment of Netanyahu and these fanatical religious extremists, settlers that now believe they have a blank check to do whatever they want to do. And especially in Jerusalem and particularly the Haram Al-Sharif and the Al-Aqsa Mosque, yeah. DB: And, I guess it should be of concern that Jared Kushner has a foundation that funds the building of settlements in the West Bank. I would think that that would be of concern to anybody thinking about any kind of negotiation, whatsoever. Not to mention the fact that Netanyahu would stay with the family at the Kushner house when he was in the U.S. FB: Well, that’s correct. Kushner is aiding and abetting, by means of his foundation, he is aiding and abetting more crimes under the Hague Regulations of 1907, to which the United States government is a party, a violation of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, the four Geneva Conventions to which the United States is a party. And crimes against humanity as defined by the statute of the International Criminal Court. And the prosecutor, the International Criminal Court, is currently investigating war crimes, and crimes against humanity because of these settlements. So, it’s impossible to think that a guy like Kushner could possibly serve as some type of mediator here, and it does look now, the Palestinians have decided to turn to Russia and China, and the United Nations to serve as mediators. Although I have to point out, Dennis, that I was involved as legal advisor to the Palestinian delegation to the Middle East Peace Negotiations right from the very beginning there in Washington, D.C. in the fall of 1991, convened by President Bush, Sr., and the United States government has never served as an honest broker. They’ve always supported the Israeli position. And, indeed, I think as I mentioned it before, Bush, Sr. put three American Jews in charge of the process, [Dennis] Ross, [Aaron David] Miller and [Daniel] Kurtzer. And they basically functioned as Israel’s lawyer. And, I believe, two of them were, still are, orthodox. I don’t think Ross is. And here we are, all these years later, now 2017 – that was 1991 – and nothing has changed because Trump has put Kushner, [David] Friedman and [Jason] Greenblatt as the so-called negotiators. And here all three of them are orthodox. So, this situation is completely preposterous. How do you expect any negotiations to go on here – reasonable, fair negotiations? It’s not going to happen. DB: And, I guess, that takes us back to Nikki Haley’s threatening statements today sounding like a bit of a mafioso captain warning any nation that would vote – I guess they didn’t have much of an impact on the vote – but clearly it’s got to be frightening if you’re a little nation that lives or dies based on U.S. aid and they’re saying you vote for this resolution in support of the Palestinians then we’re going to kill you. This is also not a good sign. FB: Right, well without the Haley/Trump threats, I suspect the Palestinians would have also picked up the 35 abstentions, and maybe the no-shows. It appears several states just didn’t show up, because of these threats. So, basically it probably would have been – what, there’s 193 U.N. member states – so it probably would have been 185 to 9. But under United for Peace all they needed was two-thirds of those voting and abstentions didn’t count. So, there you are. They have the votes, and indeed, they do have the votes to be admitted as a full-fledged U.N. member state based on this vote here. And the Trump/Haley threats, it does appear to me, they’ve got the votes to get admitted to the U.N., hopefully starting in January [2018]. There’s been a statement made that they will be submitting another resolution on their admission to the Security Council sometime in January. And, assuming the U.S. vetoes it, which it probably will under Trump, they can again invoke Uniting for Peace, and put it before the General Assembly. Because, at the end of the day, in accordance with the terms of the United Nations charter, the Security Council only makes a recommendation on admission, not any decision. There’s a big difference between recommendations and decisions. And, also, under the terms of the United Nations charter, at the end of the day, it is the General Assembly that admits a member state, not the Security Council. I had advised the Palestinians years go, they can do this, that they did try in 2012. And, at that point they decided just to go for observer state status. They’re going one step at a time, and we’ll have to see what their next step is. I also noticed that, although I don’t have a list, but [Palestinian] President Abbas just exceeded to about 22 different treaties. I still haven’t gotten the names of those treaties. But that also goes back to our previous conversation on Jerusalem here on a legal intifada. They will use their memberships in all these international organizations to further solidify and promote their statehood. And, the bottom line is, I think that’s positive, one, because even [Noam] Chomsky has pointed out, if the Palestinians keep going this way, at the end of the day you’ll have two states over there. [https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/1024px-Boy_and_soldier_in_front_of_Israeli_wall-300x200.jpg] A Palestinian boy and Israeli soldier in front of the Israeli West Bank Barrier. August 17, 2004. (Photo by Justin McIntosh; Wikipedia) Otherwise, I’m afraid we’re just going to have total chaos, and the Palestinians will be getting nothing more than a collection of little Bantustans. You remember, back in the days, Dennis, when we used to fight apartheid in South Africa. We had Transkei, Ciskei, and Bophuthatswana that weren’t even connected with each other. They were little bitty plots of land. And that’s pretty much what Israel has in mind here. DB: And it is important to note those who fought that war against apartheid in South Africa are among the strongest supporters of the Palestinians. And they now say, and I pushed them on this, because I want to know if we’re talking hyperbole here, and they now say that the Palestinian situation is way worse, particularly in Gaza. Way worse than they ever had it in terms of the Bantustans that you were just referring to. FB: That’s correct. And indeed, my friend, Professor John Dugard, who had been Special Rapporteur on Palestine is from South Africa. And he was one of a handful of white, international law professors over there with the courage, integrity and principles to oppose apartheid in South Africa, at risk to his life. And Dugard has said the same thing. If you want to look at… do a google on his name DUGARD. And Dugard has said, and as you point out, other ANC leaders have said, that what the Palestinians are up against is far worse than what we were up against in the struggle against apartheid. You were involved, I was involved, many of us fought apartheid in South Africa. And we’re fighting apartheid over there [Palestine] today as well. The legal principles are pretty much the same. DB: The legal principles are the same, but the uh… sort of the history and the details, or the situation, are quite a bit different. Israel and its lobby controls U.S. policy so they’re… all those anti-apartheiders have been fairly silent, wouldn’t you say? FB: Well, we have the BDS campaign… DB: Well, yes… no, no, this is the silver lining but I mean all those politicians, and all those civil rights activists, and all those folks… and you know I can go down the list, do not see… if you even bring that up, either the subject disappears or you’re considered an idiot, or a conspiracy theorist, over the top, whatever. When you make that parallel structure. I haven’t heard it on NPR, have you? FB: You mean National Propaganda Radio, Dennis? But, look, I set up the Israeli divestment/disinvestment campaign, in November of 2000, because of my involvement in the divestment/disinvestment campaign here against apartheid South Africa, that was called for by a black lawyer who was ahead of me at Harvard Law School, Randal Robinson. And looking into the situation, I concluded that the legal principles are the same. And, when I did this, I remember the president of Harvard, Larry Summers, condemned me, because I was involved in the Harvard divestment/disinvestment campaign, and accused me of being anti-semitic. And WBUR, which is the NPR affiliate out there in Boston asked me to debate Summers and I said I would. And Summers did not have the courage, integrity or principles to debate me. As you know, eventually Harvard fired him because he publicly stated women are dumber than men when it comes to math and science. So, fine. So I debated Alan Dershowitz on this, as far back as 2002. And, we had a debate and I won that debate. I clobbered Dershowitz. And in 2005 then-Palestinian civil society leaders contacted me and said “We really want to set up a BDS campaign, modeled on what the world did against apartheid South Africa. Boycott, divestment and sanctions, would you go in with us?” I said, “Sure.” So, I sort of surrendered the initiative to them. But we’ve made an enormous amount of progress in these years. And, yes, the forces against us are substantial, and I guess more substantial than in apartheid South Africa. Although thereto, as you note, the United States government fully supported apartheid South Africa, except during President Jimmy Carter. But all the rest of them supported it, up through and including Reagan, and the collapse of apartheid. So, when I set this thing up in 2000 I knew the forces against us would be formidable. But the only progressive … change we’ve ever seen in this country, Dennis, in my lifetime, going back to the struggle for civil rights for black people, which I also supported, has come from the people, and grassroots movement. It has never come from Washington, D.C. And it certainly hasn’t come from the judiciary. It hasn’t come from Congress. It hasn’t come from the executive branch. So, I think we’ve done a pretty good job in the BDS campaign, not just in this country, but worldwide. And it’s going to take more time. Israel is fighting it tooth and nail, as you know. They even set up a separate ministry over there, to counteract BDS. [Sheldon] Adelson is putting millions of dollars into the campaign. But I think everyone who looks at it realizes they are losing, because we have truth and justice on our side. So we’re just going to have to keep plucking away, Dennis. People want to have peace with justice there for both Palestinians and Jews. It can be done. But we have a lot more work to do. DB: Beautiful. Alright, well, Professor Boyle, as always we appreciate the good information, and the discussion about an issue that is really at the core, whether there’s going to be peace in this world. FB: I do want to make one more point here which I think is very important. Back in 1991, I was advising both the Palestinian delegation and the Syrian delegation. And the Jordanians were prepared for peace but they couldn’t go first. And at that time Lebanon was occupied by Syria, so they basically did whatever the Syrians told them. So I was advising, at the same time, the two key actors here. And I can assure you that if Israel had wanted peace back in 1991, with the Palestinians and with the Syrians, we could have had it. Because I knew the Palestinian bottom line, and I knew the Syrian bottom line, and I was drafting their documents. And, regretfully, they started under [former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak] Shamir, whose strategy was stall and delay. Then came Rabin, and he negotiated a comprehensive peace plan, agreement with Syria, full peace for full withdrawal. And he also did the Oslo Accord with the Palestinians. And then he was murdered. DB: He was murdered by settlers. Let’s remind people. He was murdered by crazy….. FB: Extremist settlers. And Netanyahu came to power and there’s been no peace, peace process to speak of, since then. Now that’s 1995. And here we are today. But I can say, based on my inside personal knowledge that peace was at hand, back at that point, at this early point. And, regretfully, we’re pretty far from it today. Dennis J Bernstein is a host of “Flashpoints” on the Pacifica radio network and the author of Special Ed: Voices from a Hidden Classroom. You can access the audio archives at www.flashpoints.net. [image_pdf]image_pdf[image_print]image_print Tags: Apartheid BDS Movement Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) Feed: "Francis Boyle" - BingNews Posted on: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 12:48 PM Author: "Francis Boyle" - BingNews Subject: Reverberations from Trump’s Jerusalem Move I spoke about the significance of the vote with Professor Francis Boyle, a scholar and long-time pro-Palestinian activist, who has been deeply engaged in the Mideast peace process and various negotiations over the last 30 years. Boyle is a professor of ... View article... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22376 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 14261 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11242 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 494 bytes Desc: image004.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.png Type: image/png Size: 2233 bytes Desc: image005.png URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Thu Dec 28 03:29:12 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 03:29:12 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?FW=3A_Reverberations_from_Trump?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_Jerusalem_Move?= Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 9:27 PM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: FW: Reverberations from Trump’s Jerusalem Move Reverberations from Trump’s Jerusalem Move December 27, 2017 One ironic benefit from Donald Trump’s presidency is that the world is showing more independence against U.S. edicts, such as the recent rebuff of Trump’s decision to move the U.S. embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, as Dennis J Bernstein reports. By Dennis J Bernstein The U.N. General Assembly’s rebuff of overt threats of economic retaliation from President Trump — in the overwhelming repudiation of his decision to move the U.S. embassy in Israel to Jerusalem — marked a rare show of independence from Washington. Despite President Trump’s threats, the vote against the U.S. position was 128 to 9, with 35 abstentions. [https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/37501285552_1d632d7ec2_k1-300x214.jpg] The United Nations logo in the General Assembly Hall. (Official U.N. Photo) I spoke about the significance of the vote with Professor Francis Boyle, a scholar and long-time pro-Palestinian activist, who has been deeply engaged in the Mideast peace process and various negotiations over the last 30 years. Boyle is a professor of international law at the University of Illinois’ College of Law. He served as a legal advisor to the Palestinian Liberation Organization. Dennis Bernstein: Before we jump into this, I would like people to know a little bit more about your background, because you’re the perfect person to hit this subject at this time. Just say a little bit more about your work with the Palestinians. Francis Boyle: Right. Well, starting in 1987, at [the Palestinians] request, I made a speech at the United Nations on the 20th anniversary of the Six-Day War. And, in this speech, I outlined to them an agenda for establishing their statehood, including, at some point, invoking the Uniting for Peace Resolution. So, they liked what I had to say and asked me to write it up in a memo, which I did. You can read it in my book “Palestine, Palestinians and International Law.” And they then carried out my recommendation in their Declaration of Independence of 15 November, 1988. And I was their legal advisor on all of that. My memorandum became their position paper. And I’ve worked with them since then. Today, the State of Palestine is recognized du jour by 136 states, the last time I looked. And it also has U.N. observer state status now at the United Nations along the lines that Switzerland had before it became a full-fledged U.N. member state. […] And certainly the Palestinians have publicly stated that they can, at some point in the future, invoke the Uniting for Peace Resolution to obtain their admission to the United Nations as a full-fledged U.N. member state. They said that’s next on the agenda. I guess we have to see what happens here. I really can’t say, but they said they’re renewing that struggle in January [2018], after the dust settles here. DB: Okay, now let’s talk about the significance of the vote today [Dec. 21], which has a lot to do with Jerusalem. And, talk about it, if you will, in the context of the Uniting for Peace procedure because this gives it more power or more of a focus. FB: Well, that is correct. When Uniting for Peace started out, back during the days of the Korean War, the Soviet Union proceeded to exercise a veto. And the United States under Secretary of State Dean Acheson – back in those days we controlled the General Assembly – put forward the Uniting for Peace Resolution in the General Assembly to circumvent the Soviet veto. And then [the US] used it to impose fairly terrible economic sanctions against North Korea that continue until today. And, over the years, the Uniting for Peace procedure was approved by the International Court of Justice in the [Unclear 05:48] advisory opinion in 1962. And I did, I was the one who informed the Palestinians about the Uniting for Peace procedure and that we need to go forward and use it. And they have used it. And [the vote on Dec. 21] was yet another example. The mainstream news media is dismissing this as nothing more than symbolic. You know, Dennis, if it were nothing more than symbolic then why did Nikki Haley get up there and threaten to break the legs of everyone in the world, if they voted for it, and likewise, Trump make his thuggish threat, as well, at his last cabinet meetings? So it’s far more than symbolic. Under Uniting for Peace the General Assembly cannot require states to do anything. But they can certainly authorize them. And what happens here with this resolution under Uniting for Peace is that it really solidified the international consensus on Jerusalem. As you note, we discussed this before, when Trump announced his new policy, and invited other states to follow moving the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem and recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, which it definitely is not, whether west Jerusalem or east Jerusalem. And, this vote today really solidifies that international consensus. So that is a positive thing, but, obviously it’s going to have to be followed up by more steps by the Palestinians. Again, my advice is the next stage here is to use United for Peace to have Palestine admitted to the U.N. itself. But, that’s under consideration. We’ll have to see what they do. DB: And what, exactly, did that resolution say? It was reinforcing earlier Security Council resolutions. What exactly are we talking about here? FB: Well, the way the United States government set it up under Secretary of State Dean Acheson, was that in the event there is a matter affecting international peace and security, and at least one of the permanent members at the Security Council exercises a veto power over a resolution on that matter, when the resolution is introduced in the Security Council, the matter is then turned over to the United Nations General Assembly for action, for the General Assembly to decide what to do about it, in accordance with a two-thirds vote. So, the United States government originally introduced this. We conceived it and we applied it, regretfully, to North Korea. And those economic sanctions are still strangling North Korea today, as we talk. And Trump is trying to escalate them. But in any event, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I think it’s only history, sort of cosmic blowback here, that a generation later the Palestinians and most of the rest of the world are using Uniting for Peace against the United States. This is our baby, as it were, and they are sticking it back to us. DB: Alright, now let’s just talk a little bit about Jerusalem and what’s at stake here. Last we spoke, one of the things you said, and it’s very concerning and absolutely true, is that you were now fearing the deaths again of more Palestinians in this fight for liberation. FB: And, it’s true, Dennis, […] in fairness, that Jews might die too. DB: Yes. And things have been happening, clearly Palestinians have been dying. There have been attacks in the Gaza Strip. There have been some incidents from Palestinians coming at Jews, that’s a fact as well. But, always, it’s the Palestinians that lead the dying. And what I want you to talk about here is, because people still do not get it: What is at stake in Jerusalem here? What exactly is this about? And why will this be the line of resistance? FB: Because, as you know, Jerusalem is the headquarters for the three great monotheistic faiths: Islam, Judaism, Christianity. And, especially, for the Muslims the Haram al-Sharif, the Noble Sanctuary, it’s the plateau over there. And that plateau is considered to be sacred. They have on there the Al-Aqsa Mosque, where Muslims used to direct their prayers before Mecca Medina. There is the Dome of the Rock where it is said Mohammed ascended into Heaven. And then you have the El Burka, which is the sort of “stand on the side” where Mohammed is said to have tied up his horse, when he miraculously flew from Arabia to Jerusalem, to make his ascent into Heaven. So, on the Jewish side, you have the Wailing Wall. And, despite when everything is said, this is still Palestinian. It is protected under the Geneva Conventions, and also there’s a 1953 convention to which Israel is a party, protecting cultural religious sites in times of war. Although, I believe, that could easily be negotiated by simply setting up an easement so that Jews could go worship at the Wailing Wall. I don’t think Palestinians have any great desire to stop that, one way or the other. And then Christianity, of course, you have all the holy sites there, the Nativity, the Church of the Nativity, the Holy Sepulchre, etc. So, it’s really the flashpoint for these three religions. Although, again, I did devise a proposal for the Palestinians that was approved by the PLO, on sharing Jerusalem as a capital between both Israel and Palestine, the two states. That would have to be subject to approval by the Security Council because Jerusalem still has a separate status under international laws of corpus separatum. But that would probably be approved. And you can read that proposal that did have the approval of the PLO in my book “Palestine, Palestinians and International Law” along with the original memorandum I did for them going back to 1987. And then the Chair of the Palestinian delegation to the Middle East peace negotiations, my client and friend, the late, great Dr. Haidar Abdel-Shafi, instructed me to draw up the counter offer to Israel’s Oslo Bantustan [the Oslo Accords of 1993], which I did do. And that is published in there with Dr. Abdel-Shafi’s permission. It was clear at the beginning that Oslo was pretty much a Bantustan, and so I advised all the Palestinians to that effect. And Abdel-Shafi then instructed me to come up with their counter offer which I did do. But that position did not prevail. Dr. Abdel-Shafi and I fought against Oslo to the bitter end. Then we lost, so there you go. DB: Now, staying with Jerusalem, I think the statement made by Trump, even though it’s obviously a continuum of U.S. policy – Obama’s ambassador [Dan Shapiro] was no better, if not worse–but what’s going on on the ground in Jerusalem in the context of this statement, in other words, the continuing expansion of house demolitions, the attempt to put security devices, and set up a place to block Muslims from going to pray before making them go through a metal detector..that was going on in the recent past. The heat on this situation in Jerusalem has been high before this announcement. So, this is just sort of pushing it right at the edge, isn’t it? FB: Right. Dennis, it’s really emboldening Netanyahu and his religious fanatics over there, who, by the way were complicit in the assassination of Prime Minister [Yitzhak] Rabin. Who was first and, so far, the only Prime Minister they’ve had over there who was interested in negotiating peace with the Palestinians and Syria, which is why they murdered him. [https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/barbed-wire-2446112_1280-300x225.jpg] One of Islam’s holiest sites the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, seen through barbed wire. So, yeah, this simply emboldens these people. And the real flashpoint is… Netanyahu permitting these fanatical, racist settlers to go onto Haram Al-Sharif [Temple Mount] itself, and storm Al-Aqsa Mosque. And, that is happening repeatedly. And it’s extremely dangerous and highly provocative. Because, at the end of the day, these people want to destroy Al-Aqsa and build their so-called third temple. And it would be a total catastrophe if this happens, because you’d have 1.5 billion Muslims in the world rising up in unison over this. But that’s the real danger right now, I think, is the emboldenment of Netanyahu and these fanatical religious extremists, settlers that now believe they have a blank check to do whatever they want to do. And especially in Jerusalem and particularly the Haram Al-Sharif and the Al-Aqsa Mosque, yeah. DB: And, I guess it should be of concern that Jared Kushner has a foundation that funds the building of settlements in the West Bank. I would think that that would be of concern to anybody thinking about any kind of negotiation, whatsoever. Not to mention the fact that Netanyahu would stay with the family at the Kushner house when he was in the U.S. FB: Well, that’s correct. Kushner is aiding and abetting, by means of his foundation, he is aiding and abetting more crimes under the Hague Regulations of 1907, to which the United States government is a party, a violation of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, the four Geneva Conventions to which the United States is a party. And crimes against humanity as defined by the statute of the International Criminal Court. And the prosecutor, the International Criminal Court, is currently investigating war crimes, and crimes against humanity because of these settlements. So, it’s impossible to think that a guy like Kushner could possibly serve as some type of mediator here, and it does look now, the Palestinians have decided to turn to Russia and China, and the United Nations to serve as mediators. Although I have to point out, Dennis, that I was involved as legal advisor to the Palestinian delegation to the Middle East Peace Negotiations right from the very beginning there in Washington, D.C. in the fall of 1991, convened by President Bush, Sr., and the United States government has never served as an honest broker. They’ve always supported the Israeli position. And, indeed, I think as I mentioned it before, Bush, Sr. put three American Jews in charge of the process, [Dennis] Ross, [Aaron David] Miller and [Daniel] Kurtzer. And they basically functioned as Israel’s lawyer. And, I believe, two of them were, still are, orthodox. I don’t think Ross is. And here we are, all these years later, now 2017 – that was 1991 – and nothing has changed because Trump has put Kushner, [David] Friedman and [Jason] Greenblatt as the so-called negotiators. And here all three of them are orthodox. So, this situation is completely preposterous. How do you expect any negotiations to go on here – reasonable, fair negotiations? It’s not going to happen. DB: And, I guess, that takes us back to Nikki Haley’s threatening statements today sounding like a bit of a mafioso captain warning any nation that would vote – I guess they didn’t have much of an impact on the vote – but clearly it’s got to be frightening if you’re a little nation that lives or dies based on U.S. aid and they’re saying you vote for this resolution in support of the Palestinians then we’re going to kill you. This is also not a good sign. FB: Right, well without the Haley/Trump threats, I suspect the Palestinians would have also picked up the 35 abstentions, and maybe the no-shows. It appears several states just didn’t show up, because of these threats. So, basically it probably would have been – what, there’s 193 U.N. member states – so it probably would have been 185 to 9. But under United for Peace all they needed was two-thirds of those voting and abstentions didn’t count. So, there you are. They have the votes, and indeed, they do have the votes to be admitted as a full-fledged U.N. member state based on this vote here. And the Trump/Haley threats, it does appear to me, they’ve got the votes to get admitted to the U.N., hopefully starting in January [2018]. There’s been a statement made that they will be submitting another resolution on their admission to the Security Council sometime in January. And, assuming the U.S. vetoes it, which it probably will under Trump, they can again invoke Uniting for Peace, and put it before the General Assembly. Because, at the end of the day, in accordance with the terms of the United Nations charter, the Security Council only makes a recommendation on admission, not any decision. There’s a big difference between recommendations and decisions. And, also, under the terms of the United Nations charter, at the end of the day, it is the General Assembly that admits a member state, not the Security Council. I had advised the Palestinians years go, they can do this, that they did try in 2012. And, at that point they decided just to go for observer state status. They’re going one step at a time, and we’ll have to see what their next step is. I also noticed that, although I don’t have a list, but [Palestinian] President Abbas just exceeded to about 22 different treaties. I still haven’t gotten the names of those treaties. But that also goes back to our previous conversation on Jerusalem here on a legal intifada. They will use their memberships in all these international organizations to further solidify and promote their statehood. And, the bottom line is, I think that’s positive, one, because even [Noam] Chomsky has pointed out, if the Palestinians keep going this way, at the end of the day you’ll have two states over there. [https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/1024px-Boy_and_soldier_in_front_of_Israeli_wall-300x200.jpg] A Palestinian boy and Israeli soldier in front of the Israeli West Bank Barrier. August 17, 2004. (Photo by Justin McIntosh; Wikipedia) Otherwise, I’m afraid we’re just going to have total chaos, and the Palestinians will be getting nothing more than a collection of little Bantustans. You remember, back in the days, Dennis, when we used to fight apartheid in South Africa. We had Transkei, Ciskei, and Bophuthatswana that weren’t even connected with each other. They were little bitty plots of land. And that’s pretty much what Israel has in mind here. DB: And it is important to note those who fought that war against apartheid in South Africa are among the strongest supporters of the Palestinians. And they now say, and I pushed them on this, because I want to know if we’re talking hyperbole here, and they now say that the Palestinian situation is way worse, particularly in Gaza. Way worse than they ever had it in terms of the Bantustans that you were just referring to. FB: That’s correct. And indeed, my friend, Professor John Dugard, who had been Special Rapporteur on Palestine is from South Africa. And he was one of a handful of white, international law professors over there with the courage, integrity and principles to oppose apartheid in South Africa, at risk to his life. And Dugard has said the same thing. If you want to look at… do a google on his name DUGARD. And Dugard has said, and as you point out, other ANC leaders have said, that what the Palestinians are up against is far worse than what we were up against in the struggle against apartheid. You were involved, I was involved, many of us fought apartheid in South Africa. And we’re fighting apartheid over there [Palestine] today as well. The legal principles are pretty much the same. DB: The legal principles are the same, but the uh… sort of the history and the details, or the situation, are quite a bit different. Israel and its lobby controls U.S. policy so they’re… all those anti-apartheiders have been fairly silent, wouldn’t you say? FB: Well, we have the BDS campaign… DB: Well, yes… no, no, this is the silver lining but I mean all those politicians, and all those civil rights activists, and all those folks… and you know I can go down the list, do not see… if you even bring that up, either the subject disappears or you’re considered an idiot, or a conspiracy theorist, over the top, whatever. When you make that parallel structure. I haven’t heard it on NPR, have you? FB: You mean National Propaganda Radio, Dennis? But, look, I set up the Israeli divestment/disinvestment campaign, in November of 2000, because of my involvement in the divestment/disinvestment campaign here against apartheid South Africa, that was called for by a black lawyer who was ahead of me at Harvard Law School, Randal Robinson. And looking into the situation, I concluded that the legal principles are the same. And, when I did this, I remember the president of Harvard, Larry Summers, condemned me, because I was involved in the Harvard divestment/disinvestment campaign, and accused me of being anti-semitic. And WBUR, which is the NPR affiliate out there in Boston asked me to debate Summers and I said I would. And Summers did not have the courage, integrity or principles to debate me. As you know, eventually Harvard fired him because he publicly stated women are dumber than men when it comes to math and science. So, fine. So I debated Alan Dershowitz on this, as far back as 2002. And, we had a debate and I won that debate. I clobbered Dershowitz. And in 2005 then-Palestinian civil society leaders contacted me and said “We really want to set up a BDS campaign, modeled on what the world did against apartheid South Africa. Boycott, divestment and sanctions, would you go in with us?” I said, “Sure.” So, I sort of surrendered the initiative to them. But we’ve made an enormous amount of progress in these years. And, yes, the forces against us are substantial, and I guess more substantial than in apartheid South Africa. Although thereto, as you note, the United States government fully supported apartheid South Africa, except during President Jimmy Carter. But all the rest of them supported it, up through and including Reagan, and the collapse of apartheid. So, when I set this thing up in 2000 I knew the forces against us would be formidable. But the only progressive … change we’ve ever seen in this country, Dennis, in my lifetime, going back to the struggle for civil rights for black people, which I also supported, has come from the people, and grassroots movement. It has never come from Washington, D.C. And it certainly hasn’t come from the judiciary. It hasn’t come from Congress. It hasn’t come from the executive branch. So, I think we’ve done a pretty good job in the BDS campaign, not just in this country, but worldwide. And it’s going to take more time. Israel is fighting it tooth and nail, as you know. They even set up a separate ministry over there, to counteract BDS. [Sheldon] Adelson is putting millions of dollars into the campaign. But I think everyone who looks at it realizes they are losing, because we have truth and justice on our side. So we’re just going to have to keep plucking away, Dennis. People want to have peace with justice there for both Palestinians and Jews. It can be done. But we have a lot more work to do. DB: Beautiful. Alright, well, Professor Boyle, as always we appreciate the good information, and the discussion about an issue that is really at the core, whether there’s going to be peace in this world. FB: I do want to make one more point here which I think is very important. Back in 1991, I was advising both the Palestinian delegation and the Syrian delegation. And the Jordanians were prepared for peace but they couldn’t go first. And at that time Lebanon was occupied by Syria, so they basically did whatever the Syrians told them. So I was advising, at the same time, the two key actors here. And I can assure you that if Israel had wanted peace back in 1991, with the Palestinians and with the Syrians, we could have had it. Because I knew the Palestinian bottom line, and I knew the Syrian bottom line, and I was drafting their documents. And, regretfully, they started under [former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak] Shamir, whose strategy was stall and delay. Then came Rabin, and he negotiated a comprehensive peace plan, agreement with Syria, full peace for full withdrawal. And he also did the Oslo Accord with the Palestinians. And then he was murdered. DB: He was murdered by settlers. Let’s remind people. He was murdered by crazy….. FB: Extremist settlers. And Netanyahu came to power and there’s been no peace, peace process to speak of, since then. Now that’s 1995. And here we are today. But I can say, based on my inside personal knowledge that peace was at hand, back at that point, at this early point. And, regretfully, we’re pretty far from it today. Dennis J Bernstein is a host of “Flashpoints” on the Pacifica radio network and the author of Special Ed: Voices from a Hidden Classroom. You can access the audio archives at www.flashpoints.net. [image_pdf]image_pdf[image_print]image_print Tags: Apartheid BDS Movement Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) Feed: "Francis Boyle" - BingNews Posted on: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 12:48 PM Author: "Francis Boyle" - BingNews Subject: Reverberations from Trump’s Jerusalem Move I spoke about the significance of the vote with Professor Francis Boyle, a scholar and long-time pro-Palestinian activist, who has been deeply engaged in the Mideast peace process and various negotiations over the last 30 years. Boyle is a professor of ... View article... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22376 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 14261 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11242 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 494 bytes Desc: image004.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.png Type: image/png Size: 2233 bytes Desc: image005.png URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 10:38:32 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 04:38:32 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Exercising the franchise Message-ID: <54EDBB48-9526-493D-A9D4-8CF8526D529F@gmail.com> In 2018 I will vote against incumbents - they haven't done well - and support only candidates who will vote for 1. bringing all US troops (and weapons) home; 2. establishing Medicare for all; and 3. providing a universal basic income. Happy new year. —CGE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 28 13:15:09 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 13:15:09 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Exercising the franchise In-Reply-To: <54EDBB48-9526-493D-A9D4-8CF8526D529F@gmail.com> References: <54EDBB48-9526-493D-A9D4-8CF8526D529F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Happy New Year Carl 1. & 2. are definitely worth supporting. 3. Sounds good, I would personally love it, and it might be the only way to bring the troops home, keep people from starving………then what? Unless we remove the Oligarchs controlled by the corporations we will have more of the same. Perpetual war, and an insidious whittling away of the UBI, just as we have seen a whittling away of social security, medicare, medicaid and all social services provided since the New Deal, in an effort to save capitalism. UBI, would pacify the people into “acquiescence,” when what we need is "revolution." Neoliberal policies are short term fixes, when what we need is structural change. Complete structural/system change is the only way to prevent perpetual war, and global warming, and time is fast running out. On Dec 28, 2017, at 02:38, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: In 2018 I will vote against incumbents - they haven't done well - and support only candidates who will vote for 1. bringing all US troops (and weapons) home; 2. establishing Medicare for all; and 3. providing a universal basic income. Happy new year. —CGE _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5e83119aee6445b6639b08d54ddf358f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636500543424861424&sdata=UK3ML%2BIk%2FUfe5icnklI2n4Q3Zy4ZRVWQXhkTHNkAgCo%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Thu Dec 28 14:38:07 2017 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 08:38:07 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Antifaschismus - ein politischer Wiederholungszwang In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9DD0BF12-DB6F-4534-B0BF-B8FF86DF63B9@illinois.edu> Wiederholungszwang: > On Dec 27, 2017, at 7:17 AM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > > The US political establishment disingenuously encourages opposition to ‘fascism' in its feverish campaign to ensure that the administration continue the neocon (pro-war) and neolib (pro-Wall St.) policies of the previous administration (as it is doing). > > That’s like encouraging abolitionism as a current political program. Correct, of course, but irrelevant. —CGE > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 28 14:41:51 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 14:41:51 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Ajamu Baraka speaking at Code Pink program: please read: Message-ID: transcript [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/codepink1021abaraka-240.jpg]AJAMU BARAKA: Thank you so much, Medea. Thank you for that gracious introduction. Thank all of you for coming out this morning, and thank you for inviting me to be a part of what I think is going to be a historic campaign. I've always wanted to work a little bit closer with Code Pink. I've always respected the work of this organization, always respected the work of Medea. In fact, I always wanted to do some CD with you, because people tell me that -- and I think it's true -- that you could probably do CD with Medea and be relatively safe. Normally, I'll be one of the first ones that the police would grab, but I think if I do CD with Medea, they'll run right past me and grab you. Let's try it one day. MEDEA BENJAMIN: We'll do it. AJAMU BARAKA: This is a very important campaign, and as Medea shared with you, we have a new formation that we are developing. We launched this year, April the 4th of this year, in honor of the 50th anniversary of the very famous speech by Dr. King on April the 4th, 1967, in which he broke with the U.S. and came out in opposition to the Vietnam War. We thought that was a very appropriate moment for us to relaunch the black anti-war movement here in this country. As many of you know, the black community has been fairly consistent in this anti-war stance, up until 2008, but as a consequence of the change in administrations and the fact that now people appear to be sort of thinking again, thinking critically, we thought that the moment was here for us to attempt to revive the traditional oppositional stance of the black community as it relates to war. We see this effort, this alliance, as part of an effort to not only revive the traditional black anti-war movement, but the broader anti-war movement here in this country. So we have been building since. It's been a long process. We don't have many resources, but we do have a lot of enthusiasm and a clear understanding of the historic task before us. And that's why we were so happy to be one of the co-sponsoring organizations of this campaign. We are going to approach this campaign in a very particular way. Of course, we are going to utilize the fantastic support, resources that Code Pink is going to provide for the campaign. We want to, though, make sure that as we do the work, that we ensure that the politics remain front and center. We want to make sure that we don't reduce the campaign ... I'm sure it won't happen ... but we want to make sure that we steer away from the campaign being more of sort of a technical kind of campaign, and where the politics of the role of the state and the kinds of objective interests that are in play becomes less clear than what they should be. So when we look at this campaign and we determine how we're going to approach the campaign, we come from a foundational point, and that point basically is we look at the state and we look at the role of militarism, and the role of militarism in terms of its advancement of particular interests. We say that when we look at the state, we understand the state to be an instrument for a rapacious, white supremacist, violent, settler, colonial, capitalist system, and a greedy and short-sighted ruling class. So we're clear about that. We're clear that there is a convergence of interests when it comes to the military industrial and intelligence complex, and the corporate capitalist media, and even the cultural apparatus. We're clear that both parties are united in their commitment to upholding U.S. global hegemony, in which war and violence is a major instrument for maintaining that hegemony. We're clear that the strategy that is guiding the activity of the state and holding this ruling class coalition together is their commitment to the national security strategy, which is full-spectrum dominance, that has united both neo-liberals and the liberal interventionists. And we've seen the consequence of this coalition, of this strategy. We've seen it in Iraq and that disaster. We have seen it, and we continue to see it, in the second-longest U.S. conflict, which is Afghanistan. Of course, we know that the longest conflict that the U.S. is involved in is the war between the U.S. and North Korea that started in 1950 and continues. We've seen this result in the attack on Libya, the destabilization and war in Syria, the continuation of drone warfare and the murder of innocent people. We've already talked about the tragic situation in Yemen. We've seen the ideological and moral confusion regarding what happened in Egypt. We've seen the support for destabilization and support of anti-democratic movements and processes in Honduras. We've seen the expansion of the U.S. African Command across the African continent. We watch it with some bit of amusement as people are wondering what U.S. troops are doing in Niger. We've seen the destabilization in Venezuela and the fact that the Trump administration is building off of the policies of the Obama administration in that country. And we have seen with somewhat surprise, maybe not surprise but definitely disappointment, in the debates or non-debates around the expansion of military spending here in this country, the obscene proposal by the Trump administration for increasing the budget by $54 billion and having that budget expanded even more up to this obscene level of $696 billion. So we recognize and understand what we are up against, and we understand the winners and we know the losers. The losers are basically the people of the world, the people of this country, who have their resources ripped off, who are the subject, in the crosshairs of U.S. domestic repression. We've already identified some of those winners, those major corporations, and we're not going to talk about them again at this point. But what we say is that basically when we take up this area of work in this campaign, this divestment campaign, which is a very important approach. Many of us who were part of the anti-apartheid movements some decades ago remember -- in the audience, we have our brother Salih Booker, who was a central player in that fight -- we remember how valuable that divestment instrument can be. It allows you to raise all of the critical points. It allows you to start the process of de-legitimizing what many people have just accepted as legitimate activity and legitimate actors. It helps people to understand what interests are at play when they begin to follow the money. It puts people in a position where they have to, they're going to feel uncomfortable when the information is surfaced that suggests that they are complicit with the sufferings of people around the world. So that moral issue is important, and we connect that moral issue to our political organizing, and we have, I think, a very effective process of de-legitimizing militarism. So we are so happy that we are going to be part of this campaign. We say that there are sort of three interrelated components that we have to take into account as we build the campaign and engage in the work. They're very important, I think, components because they are related to how we approach the work strategically. First, we have the ideological and cultural component, where we have to acknowledge that as we talk about war and violence, we have to understand the role that war has played in the evolution of this country, that central to the U.S. experience -- and really has been a permanent part of the U.S. national identity -- has been this commitment to militarism, to war. We know that basically when you have this kind of state that was born out of violence, a settler state, that its very existence is the consequence of a military conquest of a people, then those cultures have a way of legitimizing violence, of normalizing violence, and that's one of the reasons why we have this very interesting conversation around gun control. So we have to recognize that we have a very deep-seated sort of ideological and cultural bias toward the use of violence. We know that in this culture, violence is very much tied to the conception and understanding of what it is to be a male. So there's this gender component, and it's reflected in our attitudes, it's reflected in cinema, it's reflected in the games. In this culture, the way you deal with a conflict is you become violent. You hit somebody or you attack someone, and it's very easy to go from that level of individual aggression to collective aggression. So we have to keep this in mind as we think about how we approach our political work. We have to keep in mind also a very, very important component of why we have a culture that seems to be quite comfortable in supporting war, and that is the fact that in this culture, the ruling class propagandists have been very effective in utilizing the issue of race, that the wars, most of the wars since the end of the Second World War, 1945, have been wars between the U.S., Western Europe and basically people of color. This ability to "other" people and to dehumanize them has been one of the most effective instruments they have been able to use. When you have, for example, a senator, Lindsey Graham, who says, "There may be war between the U.S. and North Korea, but don't worry. People are going to die, but it's going to be those people over there." And the very fact that people did not react with outrage across the board is reflective of what I'm getting at. We have a real serious cultural problem here. So we've got to be, in our work we've got to raise up this issue of race and white supremacy. We've got to be the ones that say that basically all lives, in fact, matter. We can't play a game by not addressing that issue in that way, that one cannot be concerned about or play the game here and talk about, "Oh yes, black lives matter," but then you're silent when it comes to the lives of Palestinians or the people in Yemen or the people in Libya or the DRC. We have to be morally consistent. We have to confront, straight and center, this notion of racialized value of life. We have a second component, the political and economic, and we referred to this briefly. We said that it's quite clear that both parties are committed to the political and material benefits of militarism. The very fact that when we have the vote in Congress to expand the military budget and 117 Democrats in the House supported that expansion, then it's quite obvious where their interests lie. Some of you might recall that when the Trump administration first proposed that $54 billion increase, even the Democrats pretended to be opposed, because that was at the moment they were still in that process of completely trying to demonize Trump. But all of a sudden, they became quiet, and we saw what happened. They became quiet because they knew they were going to eventually support that expansion. So we have both parties are committed to the military budget and militarism. We know that the financial and corporate sector is engaged in military production and has a grip on the political sector at every level of government, so it's not just the national level, but it's at the state and local level. So when we talk about divestment, we have to keep that in mind. And we see the consequence of that grip on the local and the state level, and the federal level, when it comes to something very simple like reducing the number of domestic military bases. Congress cannot even move to do that, because of those entrenched interests on those state and local levels also. And we have the reality of a two-party monopoly that makes it very difficult for a third party or fourth party, who may have at the center of their platform, like the Green Party, opposition to militarism, commitment to peace. These are some of the political issues we have to deal with as we deal with this campaign. Organizationally, we have marvelous opportunities, but we have to acknowledge that as we build this campaign, that we have a still very weak and fragmented anti-war movement, and that we have an even weaker and ideologically confused left and progressive sector here in this country. What this means is that this campaign has an opportunity to help to reverse that, that this campaign will be, I think, a marvelous opportunity to begin to build long-lasting relationships and to strengthen the broader anti-war movement as we go forward. But one thing that we do want to try to avoid, though, is a dependency on too many NGOs and what I call "NGO-ism", that is, when we begin to reduce this struggle to a more technical one and lose the politics. What does all of this mean in terms of strategy? It means that basically, as we know, the ethical framework becomes primary. We've got to challenge the values. We've got to figure out a way in which in this campaign we de-legitimize militarism and even raise questions regarding the role of the military. We have to raise the issues of race in our work. We have to link this work to our ongoing fight to make sure that the increase in military spending, now that they're at the stage of appropriations, we have to oppose that, make sure that that funding does not in fact materialize. We have to connect this campaign to the campaign that some of us are involved in, in closing all U.S. foreign military bases. We've got to make those links. We have to talk about the 1033 Program, that program responsible for transferring military-grade hardware from the federal government to police forces across this country. We have to understand that we must make that link between militarism and the domestic. We have to approach and bring into the conversation not just the companies involved in major arms sale, but let's also talk about the fact that we have an arms industry with small arms also, that the U.S. is in fact the number one arms trader on this planet. So when we talk about the people are concerned about the issue of guns and gun control, let's link that to that fact of the U.S. being the number one arms trader on the planet, because that has the direct impact on all of us in this country. So we've got to make these political links, and we have the opportunities now with this campaign to in fact do that. As I go to my chair, because my time is out just about, let's remind ourselves of this marvelous opportunity. Let's remind ourselves of the fact that we are in fact on the right side of history, that there are numbers of people in this country who are prepared to join us who are, quite frankly, tired of endless war. All they are looking for now is an opportunity to be more involved. They're looking for voices that amplify their concerns, so let's be those voices. Let's build this campaign, and let's build an effective anti-war movement here in this country. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Thu Dec 28 15:03:48 2017 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 09:03:48 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Exercising the franchise Message-ID: I agree with Karen on 1 and 2. Absolutely no incumbents, even local, for me.  Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Karen Aram via Peace-discussDate: Thu, Dec 28, 2017 7:15 AMTo: C G Estabrook;Cc: peace-discuss at anti-war.net;Peace;Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] Exercising the franchise Happy New Year Carl 1. & 2. are definitely worth supporting. 3. Sounds good, I would personally love it, and it might be the only way to bring the troops home, keep people from starving………then what?  Unless we remove the Oligarchs controlled by the corporations we will have more of the same. Perpetual war, and an insidious whittling away of the UBI, just as we have seen a whittling away of social security, medicare, medicaid and all social services provided since the New Deal, in an effort to save capitalism. UBI, would pacify the people into “acquiescence,” when what we need is "revolution."  Neoliberal policies are short term fixes, when what we need is structural change. Complete structural/system change is the only way to prevent perpetual war, and global warming, and time is fast running out.  On Dec 28, 2017, at 02:38, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: In 2018 I will vote against incumbents - they haven't done well - and support only candidates who will vote for 1. bringing all US troops (and weapons) home; 2. establishing Medicare for all; and 3. providing a universal basic income. Happy new year.  —CGE _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5e83119aee6445b6639b08d54ddf358f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636500543424861424&sdata=UK3ML%2BIk%2FUfe5icnklI2n4Q3Zy4ZRVWQXhkTHNkAgCo%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Thu Dec 28 15:03:48 2017 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 09:03:48 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Exercising the franchise Message-ID: I agree with Karen on 1 and 2. Absolutely no incumbents, even local, for me.  Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Karen Aram via Peace-discussDate: Thu, Dec 28, 2017 7:15 AMTo: C G Estabrook;Cc: peace-discuss at anti-war.net;Peace;Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] Exercising the franchise Happy New Year Carl 1. & 2. are definitely worth supporting. 3. Sounds good, I would personally love it, and it might be the only way to bring the troops home, keep people from starving………then what?  Unless we remove the Oligarchs controlled by the corporations we will have more of the same. Perpetual war, and an insidious whittling away of the UBI, just as we have seen a whittling away of social security, medicare, medicaid and all social services provided since the New Deal, in an effort to save capitalism. UBI, would pacify the people into “acquiescence,” when what we need is "revolution."  Neoliberal policies are short term fixes, when what we need is structural change. Complete structural/system change is the only way to prevent perpetual war, and global warming, and time is fast running out.  On Dec 28, 2017, at 02:38, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: In 2018 I will vote against incumbents - they haven't done well - and support only candidates who will vote for 1. bringing all US troops (and weapons) home; 2. establishing Medicare for all; and 3. providing a universal basic income. Happy new year.  —CGE _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5e83119aee6445b6639b08d54ddf358f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636500543424861424&sdata=UK3ML%2BIk%2FUfe5icnklI2n4Q3Zy4ZRVWQXhkTHNkAgCo%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 28 15:17:19 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 15:17:19 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Reform vs. change Message-ID: * Print * Leaflet * Feedback * Share » Socialism and the problem of the super-rich 28 December 2017 Nearly one hundred and fifty years ago, Karl Marx, citing the early 19th century French economist Jean Charles Léonard de Sismondi, observed that “the Roman proletariat lived at the expense of society, while modern society lives at the expense of the proletariat.” Never has this been so true as today, as day after day, week after week, reports are published showing the massive social wealth piled up by the financial oligarchy at the expense of the working class. The latest of these is the Bloomberg Billionaires Index published on Friday, which showed that the fortunes of the world’s wealthiest 500 billionaires rose 23 percent over the past year, making them $1 trillion richer than at the end of 2016. The combined wealth of this group reached $5.3 trillion. The gain of $1 trillion was four times last year’s increase. Bloomberg found that the world’s richest 500 people as a group added an average of $2.7 billion to their fortunes every day in 2017. This means that, on average, each of these individuals added $5,400,000 every day, or $225,000 every hour—roughly equivalent to the combined income of five working-class households in the US over the course of a year. The rapid expansion of the wealth of the financial oligarchy accompanies growing indicators of social misery at the other pole of society, exemplified in the report this month by the Centers for Disease Control that life expectancy in the US fell for the second year in a row. Wealth concentration on the scale reflected in these reports has immense social implications. It is impossible to seriously address a single social issue without confronting the problem of economic inequality. The colossal diversion of resources into private wealth accumulation by the financial oligarchy effectively starves society of the resources it needs to deal with the most basic problems. The United Nations estimates that it would cost $30 billion a year to eradicate world hunger, a small fraction of the wealth monopolized by the world’s billionaires. Amazon founder Jeff Bezos alone added $34.2 billion to his fortune in 2017. America’s 159 billionaires added $315 billion to their fortunes last year, giving them a collective net worth of $2 trillion. This is double the $1 trillion spent by the US government in 2015 on health care ($980 billion), education ($70 billion) and housing ($63 billion) combined. The funneling of these vast sums into the bank accounts of the super-rich, combined with the nearly $1 trillion set aside every year to fund the military machine that protects the oligarchy’s financial interests around the world, leaves virtually nothing to address the crumbling social and physical infrastructure (roads, bridges, rail, mass transit) of the United States. The tax bill just passed by the Trump administration will fuel a further growth of social inequality in the US and around the world beyond what are already the highest levels since the Gilded Age at the turn of the 20th century. The economic life of the planet is determined by the drive of the ruling elite for ever greater self-enrichment. The policies of all capitalist governments and parties, whether right-wing or nominally “left,” are driven by this requirement. The unprecedented rise in the stock market has been engineered by the world’s central banks, led by the US Federal Reserve, to enable the capitalist class to recoup its losses and increase its share of wealth and income in the aftermath of the 2008 financial crisis. The Fed, first under Bush and then under Obama, led the way in organizing bank bailouts and the infusion of trillions into the financial markets by means of ultra-low interest rates and “quantitative easing” money-printing operations. To provide a certain context, the total of $5.3 trillion in assets controlled by the richest 500 people is greater than the combined GDPs of the UK and France. The $2 trillion owned by US billionaires is almost twice the GDP of Mexico, a country of 128 million people. It is also more than double the combined GDPs of Argentina, Chile and Peru. Bezos’ gain for the year is itself only slightly less than the combined GDPs of Jamaica ($14 billion), Niger ($7.5 billion) and Zimbabwe ($16 billion), with a combined population of 40 million. The financial elite has definite social interests, which it enforces through the wholesale buying of political parties and politicians, making democracy under capitalism nothing but a hollow shell. What would happen in response to any serious effort to reform this state of affairs, to pursue a modest reallocation of social resources, within the framework of the capitalist system, to ensure that all people received the basic rudiments of nutrition, health care, and education? It would inevitably be met with massive and overwhelming opposition on the part of the financial oligarchy, which controls all levers of the state power, and has at its disposal not only the courts and politicians, but, even more decisively, the police and the army. When social reform is impossible, social revolution becomes inevitable. There is no way to avoid the conclusion that it is necessary to expropriate the wealth of the financial oligarchy. These resources are derived from the social labor of the working class, which produces all the wealth of society. The working class is the only social force that can and must carry out this historic task. The only answer to the growth of poverty and immiseration for the masses alongside ever more obscene levels of wealth for a tiny minority is socialism, based on common ownership and democratic control of the productive forces and the rational, planned international coordination of economic life. Barry Grey WSWS.ORG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brussel at illinois.edu Thu Dec 28 17:46:27 2017 From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 17:46:27 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5BNew_post=5D_Politics_in_this_country?= =?utf-8?q?_has_never_felt_the_way_the_it_does_now=E2=80=A6?= In-Reply-To: References: <84568989.9171.0@wordpress.com> <2822706F-4CA1-4BC0-9EDC-55481545833A@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <73335BCC-F374-4044-B8D1-DB1C1CC9D25B@illinois.edu> I don’t get it Carl. Just what do you disagree with about Roth’s description of his own disgust with American policy in the times he talks about? Be specific. All that you reply/comment upon below is beside the point. What I find particularly dismaying is your ambiguous defense of Trump, as if he were a great anticapitalist, anti-imperialist, peace maker. You have truly been fooled—that is a good word— by Trump's hope for a modus vivendi with Russia; now we can see that it was illusory—a US led NATO is on Russia’s borders and sanctions persist. Are you ignoring his military buildup, his threats to use and develop even more nuclear weapons, his crusade against N. Korea, his attack on the environment (EPA ) and anthropogenic climate change, his association with the fossil fuels complex and walking away from the Paris agreement. His continuation of threats against Iran linked to Israeli policies and against Palestinians, his attack on the public school system with his appointment Vos, His overt militarism, his appointment of federal judges of the most reactionary stripe he can find, his catering to violence and racism. I am unable to list all his regressive and dangerous policies, yes, many a continuation of what went before his term in office, like the drone murders and the continuing depredations in Afghanistan and Syria. Perhaps you should consult the reflections of your muse Noam Chomsky on all this. No, I have not forgotten about how Democrats have also played (many of) these vile games. All this reminds me that you have also forgotten about the crassness of Nixon, his subversion of law, his continuation of the Vietnam war, his anticommunist fervor. But yes, he as not all encompassing evil, as you point out.The times were such that he advanced some policies that now would be regarded as “liberal”. And how about his Secretary of State Kissinger, the mastermind of his foreign policy in Chile against Allende, but yes also China. As for Trump, he is a personal but consequential nonentity, ignorant, stupid, and amoral beyond measure. The two,Nixon and Trump, are not totally comparable, but Roth’s disgust certainly rhymes with what many of us feel today with the Trump/Republican administration. —mkb On Dec 27, 2017, at 4:03 PM, Carl G. Estabrook > wrote: I disagree: all analogies limp, and Nixon/Trump is particularly spavined. Roth was writing at the high point of the social democratic arc that began with the New Deal. Nixon’s was the most liberal US administration since WWII, despite Nixon’s own views. (Even a guaranteed annual income was proposed by the administration but defeated by Democrats: see e.g., Daniel Patrick Moynihan, "The Politics of a Guaranteed Income: The Nixon Administration and the Family Assistance Plan" [1973].) Neoliberalism, the conscious, calculated construction of American business, was just getting underway. (See e.g., “The Crisis of Democracy: On the Governability of Democracies,” a 1975 report written by Michel Crozier, Samuel P. Huntington, and Joji Watanuki for the Trilateral Commission; it says that after ‘the sixties” the problems of governance in the US "stem from an excess of democracy" and thus advocates "to restore the prestige and authority of central government institutions” and the profitability of business.) Neoconservatism was being constructed, primarily by partisans of Israel who feared that the anti-war sentiment engendered by war in SE Asia would carry over into the Mideast. (By 1969 about 70% of the US public had come to regard the Vietnam war as “fundamentally wrong and immoral,” not “a mistake.”) Inequality in the US, on the decline since 1929, had reached its low point ca. 1970; the curve turned up, accelerated, and has now reached levels equivalent to those of 1929. For many Americans,”make America great again” means restoring the economic situation and life chances their parents knew in "les trente glorieuses" (1945-75), as Piketty calls those years. Trump was the first major party candidate in 40 years to attack the neoconservative (more war) and neoliberal (more inequality) policies that dominated all administrations from Carter’s through Obama’s; that’s in part why he was elected - as an inchoate protest against war and immiseration - against a pro-war and pro-Wall St. Democratic candidate. (See e.g., >.) —CGE On Dec 27, 2017, at 11:12 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss > wrote: This needs only a very little updating. Begin forwarded message: From: Corey Robin > Subject: [New post] Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… Date: December 25, 2017 at 6:19:58 PM CST To: mkb3 at mac.com New post on Corey Robin [http://s0.wp.com/i/emails/blavatar.png] Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… by Corey Robin "The Vietnam War years were the most 'politicized' of my life. I spent my days during this war writing fiction, none of which on the face of it would appear to connect to politics. But by being 'politicized' I mean something other than writing about politics or even taking direct political action. I mean something akin to what ordinary citizens experience in countries like Czechoslovakia or Chile: a daily awareness of government as a coercive force, its continuous presence in one's thoughts as far more than just an institutionalized system of regulations and controls. In sharp contrast to Chileans or Czechs, we hadn't personally to fear for our safety and could be as outspoken as we liked, but this did not diminish the sense of living in a country with a government out of control and wholly in business for itself. Reading the morning New York Times and the afternoon New York Post, watching the seven and then the eleven o'clock TV news—all of which I did ritualistically—became for me like living on a steady diet of Dostoevsky. Rather than fearing for the well-being of my own kin and country, I now felt toward America's war mission as I had toward the Axis goals in World War II. One even began to use the word 'America' as though it was the name not of the place where one had been raised to which one had a patriotic attachment, but of a foreign invader that had conquered the country and with whom one refused, to the best of one's strength and ability, to collaborate. Suddenly America had turned into 'them'—and with this sense of dispossession came the virulence of feeling and rhetoric that often characterized the anti-war movement. ...Of course there have been others as venal and lawless [as Richard Nixon] in American politics, but even a Joe McCarthy was more identifiable as human clay than this guy is. The wonder of Nixon (and contemporary America) is that a man so transparently fraudulent, if not on the edge of mental disorder, could ever have won the confidence and approval of a people who generally require at least a little something of the 'human touch' in their leaders. It's strange that someone so unlike the types most admired in the average voter...could have passed himself off to this Saturday Evening Post America as, of all things, an American." —Philip Roth, 1974 Corey Robin | December 25, 2017 at 7:19 pm | Tags: Philip Roth, Richard Nixon | Categories: Literature, The Right | URL: https://wp.me/p5IQfX-2nV Comment See all comments Unsubscribe to no longer receive posts from Corey Robin. Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions. Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://coreyrobin.com/2017/12/25/politics-in-this-country-has-never-felt-the-way-the-it-does-now/ _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Thu Dec 28 19:20:21 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 13:20:21 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5BNew_post=5D_Politics_in_this_country?= =?utf-8?q?_has_never_felt_the_way_the_it_does_now=E2=80=A6?= In-Reply-To: <73335BCC-F374-4044-B8D1-DB1C1CC9D25B@illinois.edu> References: <84568989.9171.0@wordpress.com> <2822706F-4CA1-4BC0-9EDC-55481545833A@illinois.edu> <73335BCC-F374-4044-B8D1-DB1C1CC9D25B@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <00c501d38010$e84d2bc0$b8e78340$@comcast.net> Absolutely Mort ! What good Nixon did ( EPA, OSHA, etc. ) was because he was forced to by the huge mass revolt in the streets for civil rights, ending the Vietnam war, relatively large number of strikes and questioning capitalism itself. Like Roosevelt before him, Nixon saw this as a way of somewhat appeasing the masses while maintaining the majority of the system intact. David J. From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 11:46 AM To: Estabrook, Carl G Cc: Peace Discuss Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [New post] Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… I don’t get it Carl. Just what do you disagree with about Roth’s description of his own disgust with American policy in the times he talks about? Be specific. All that you reply/comment upon below is beside the point. What I find particularly dismaying is your ambiguous defense of Trump, as if he were a great anticapitalist, anti-imperialist, peace maker. You have truly been fooled—that is a good word— by Trump's hope for a modus vivendi with Russia; now we can see that it was illusory—a US led NATO is on Russia’s borders and sanctions persist. Are you ignoring his military buildup, his threats to use and develop even more nuclear weapons, his crusade against N. Korea, his attack on the environment (EPA ) and anthropogenic climate change, his association with the fossil fuels complex and walking away from the Paris agreement. His continuation of threats against Iran linked to Israeli policies and against Palestinians, his attack on the public school system with his appointment Vos, His overt militarism, his appointment of federal judges of the most reactionary stripe he can find, his catering to violence and racism. I am unable to list all his regressive and dangerous policies, yes, many a continuation of what went before his term in office, like the drone murders and the continuing depredations in Afghanistan and Syria. Perhaps you should consult the reflections of your muse Noam Chomsky on all this. No, I have not forgotten about how Democrats have also played (many of) these vile games. All this reminds me that you have also forgotten about the crassness of Nixon, his subversion of law, his continuation of the Vietnam war, his anticommunist fervor. But yes, he as not all encompassing evil, as you point out.The times were such that he advanced some policies that now would be regarded as “liberal”. And how about his Secretary of State Kissinger, the mastermind of his foreign policy in Chile against Allende, but yes also China. As for Trump, he is a personal but consequential nonentity, ignorant, stupid, and amoral beyond measure. The two,Nixon and Trump, are not totally comparable, but Roth’s disgust certainly rhymes with what many of us feel today with the Trump/Republican administration. —mkb On Dec 27, 2017, at 4:03 PM, Carl G. Estabrook wrote: I disagree: all analogies limp, and Nixon/Trump is particularly spavined. Roth was writing at the high point of the social democratic arc that began with the New Deal. Nixon’s was the most liberal US administration since WWII, despite Nixon’s own views. (Even a guaranteed annual income was proposed by the administration but defeated by Democrats: see e.g., Daniel Patrick Moynihan, "The Politics of a Guaranteed Income: The Nixon Administration and the Family Assistance Plan" [1973].) Neoliberalism, the conscious, calculated construction of American business, was just getting underway. (See e.g., “The Crisis of Democracy: On the Governability of Democracies,” a 1975 report written by Michel Crozier, Samuel P. Huntington, and Joji Watanuki for the Trilateral Commission; it says that after ‘the sixties” the problems of governance in the US "stem from an excess of democracy" and thus advocates "to restore the prestige and authority of central government institutions” and the profitability of business.) Neoconservatism was being constructed, primarily by partisans of Israel who feared that the anti-war sentiment engendered by war in SE Asia would carry over into the Mideast. (By 1969 about 70% of the US public had come to regard the Vietnam war as “fundamentally wrong and immoral,” not “a mistake.”) Inequality in the US, on the decline since 1929, had reached its low point ca. 1970; the curve turned up, accelerated, and has now reached levels equivalent to those of 1929. For many Americans,”make America great again” means restoring the economic situation and life chances their parents knew in "les trente glorieuses" (1945-75), as Piketty calls those years. Trump was the first major party candidate in 40 years to attack the neoconservative (more war) and neoliberal (more inequality) policies that dominated all administrations from Carter’s through Obama’s; that’s in part why he was elected - as an inchoate protest against war and immiseration - against a pro-war and pro-Wall St. Democratic candidate. (See e.g., >.) —CGE On Dec 27, 2017, at 11:12 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss wrote: This needs only a very little updating. Begin forwarded message: From: Corey Robin Subject: [New post] Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… Date: December 25, 2017 at 6:19:58 PM CST To: mkb3 at mac.com New post on Corey Robin Image removed by sender. Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… by Corey Robin "The Vietnam War years were the most 'politicized' of my life. I spent my days during this war writing fiction, none of which on the face of it would appear to connect to politics. But by being 'politicized' I mean something other than writing about politics or even taking direct political action. I mean something akin to what ordinary citizens experience in countries like Czechoslovakia or Chile: a daily awareness of government as a coercive force, its continuous presence in one's thoughts as far more than just an institutionalized system of regulations and controls. In sharp contrast to Chileans or Czechs, we hadn't personally to fear for our safety and could be as outspoken as we liked, but this did not diminish the sense of living in a country with a government out of control and wholly in business for itself. Reading the morning New York Times and the afternoon New York Post, watching the seven and then the eleven o'clock TV news—all of which I did ritualistically—became for me like living on a steady diet of Dostoevsky. Rather than fearing for the well-being of my own kin and country, I now felt toward America's war mission as I had toward the Axis goals in World War II. One even began to use the word 'America' as though it was the name not of the place where one had been raised to which one had a patriotic attachment, but of a foreign invader that had conquered the country and with whom one refused, to the best of one's strength and ability, to collaborate. Suddenly America had turned into 'them'—and with this sense of dispossession came the virulence of feeling and rhetoric that often characterized the anti-war movement. ...Of course there have been others as venal and lawless [as Richard Nixon] in American politics, but even a Joe McCarthy was more identifiable as human clay than this guy is. The wonder of Nixon (and contemporary America) is that a man so transparently fraudulent, if not on the edge of mental disorder, could ever have won the confidence and approval of a people who generally require at least a little something of the 'human touch' in their leaders. It's strange that someone so unlike the types most admired in the average voter...could have passed himself off to this Saturday Evening Post America as, of all things, an American." —Philip Roth, 1974 Corey Robin | December 25, 2017 at 7:19 pm | Tags: Philip Roth, Richard Nixon | Categories: Literature, The Right | URL: https://wp.me/p5IQfX-2nV Comment See all comments Unsubscribe to no longer receive posts from Corey Robin. Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions. Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://coreyrobin.com/2017/12/25/politics-in-this-country-has-never-felt-the-way-the-it-does-now/ Image removed by sender. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 344 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 332 bytes Desc: not available URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Thu Dec 28 20:13:11 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 14:13:11 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: WORLD LABOR HOUR SAT. DEC. 30TH In-Reply-To: <010101d38018$27d3d1c0$777b7540$@comcast.net> References: <010101d38018$27d3d1c0$777b7540$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <010c01d38018$4c678720$e5369560$@comcast.net> WORLD LABOR HOUR SATURDAY DECEMBER 30th 11 AM - 1 PM Central Time 104.5 FM and webcast LIVE worldwide at www.wrfu.net 2017 LABOR YEAR IN REVIEW - In addition to our perspectives on how to fight back and go on the offensive in 2018 Stay tuned after the World Labor Hour for ; " NOT ANOTHER SPORTS SHOW " - a radical look at sports with Host Fellow Worker Neal Parthun. WRFU - Radio Free Urbana - Listener supported corporate free community radio. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Thu Dec 28 20:16:57 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 14:16:57 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: WORLD LABOR HOUR SAT. DEC. 30TH References: <010101d38018$27d3d1c0$777b7540$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <014f01d38018$d26ff780$774fe680$@comcast.net> WORLD LABOR HOUR SATURDAY DECEMBER 30th 11 AM - 1 PM Central Time 104.5 FM and webcast LIVE worldwide at www.wrfu.net 2017 LABOR YEAR IN REVIEW - In addition to our perspectives on how to fight back and go on the offensive in 2018 Stay tuned after the World Labor Hour for ; " NOT ANOTHER SPORTS SHOW " - a radical look at sports with Host Fellow Worker Neal Parthun. WRFU - Radio Free Urbana - Listener supported corporate free community radio. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Dec 29 02:22:53 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 20:22:53 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5BNew_post=5D_Politics_in_this_country?= =?utf-8?q?_has_never_felt_the_way_the_it_does_now=E2=80=A6?= In-Reply-To: <73335BCC-F374-4044-B8D1-DB1C1CC9D25B@illinois.edu> References: <84568989.9171.0@wordpress.com> <2822706F-4CA1-4BC0-9EDC-55481545833A@illinois.edu> <73335BCC-F374-4044-B8D1-DB1C1CC9D25B@illinois.edu> Message-ID: Mort-- I disagree with the parallel between the Nixon administration and the Trump administration, largely because it’s couched in personal terms, rather than in terms of policies - continuous, but not identical. It collapses the differences between 40 years ago and today. History doesn’t repeat itself, even if it occasionally rhymes. Even to sound the rhyme requires accurate descriptions of the politics of each administration - and the US political establishment is desperate to misrepresent what they want this administration to do (namely, promote corporate globalism and retard Eurasian economic integration - both for the profits of the US 1%). Instead of accurate descriptions of Nixon and Trump, we have almost exclusively tendentious accounts, particularly from liberals. I suggested what the Nixon administration was (viz., the culmination of the New Deal), and the Trump administration (viz., a proposed rejection of 40 years of neoliberalism and neoconservatism - now cudgeled into the pro-war/pro-Wall St. shape of the Obama administration: “a US-led NATO is on Russia’s borders and sanctions persist”). I do not defend Trump but want to point out that it was his suggestion of a modus vivendi with Russia that so frightened and enraged the US political establishment - for good reason, if one pays attention to the crimes that that establishment has committed vis-a-vis Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union. The differences between Trump and Obama in action on practically all the matters you mention (military buildup, nuclear weapons, Korean provocations, environmental nonfeasance, Israeli policies re Iran and Palestine, education, judicial appointments, etc.) are differences of style, not substance. The victims of those policies don’t notice much change. Of course Trump has the context of “the drone murders and the continuing depredations in Afghanistan and Syria” - “the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times” and the only president to be at (illegal) war throughout two terms. But he lacks his predecessor’s talent for hiding his crimes. Trump is estopped from making any real changes in the policies of the Obama (and Bush, etc.) administrations because he’s probably the weakest president since Coolidge (from whom he differs primarily in bluster). If the Nuremberg principles had been applied to US presidents since WWII, they all would have been hanged - and Trump as well (for the “supreme international crime ... aggressive war”). Recognizing that destroys the propaganda of the US political establishment, up to the moment, as they try to foist those policies on Trump, largely successfully. Chomsky, who as you know I regard as the most cogent American political analyst of the last half-century, noted that - as he said - “Nixon’s defenders had a case,” if one attended to the nature of US politics at the time - rather than just to his presumably rotten character; the same can be said of Trump. They both are scapegoats. Trump is not the problem: US war-making is. The effective political establishment in America hides its crimes by directing attention to personal failings. “Resistance” to Trump is a distraction from the establishment’s nefarious policies at home and abroad. (See “Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise” .) The deficiencies of presidential character in our lifetimes shouldn’t blind us to the fact that the polity for which we’re responsible is “the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today” - and has been throughout our lifetimes. “Two minutes’ hate” for chief executives like Nixon and Trump doesn’t make up for the crimes that we’ve allowed American liberals - from Kennedy and Johnson to Clinton and Obama - to commit; and that continue. Regards, CGE > On Dec 28, 2017, at 11:46 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss wrote: > > I don’t get it Carl. Just what do you disagree with about Roth’s description of his own disgust with American policy in the times he talks about?Be specific. All that you reply/comment upon below is beside the point. What I find particularly dismaying is your ambiguous defense of Trump, as if he were a great anticapitalist, anti-imperialist, peace maker. You have truly been fooled—that is a good word— by Trump's hope for a modus vivendi with Russia; now we can see that it was illusory—a US led NATO is on Russia’s borders and sanctions persist. Are you ignoring his military buildup, his threats to use and develop even more nuclear weapons, his crusade against N. Korea, his attack on the environment (EPA ) and anthropogenic climate change, his association with the fossil fuels complex and walking away from the Paris agreement. His continuation of threats against Iran linked to Israeli policies and against Palestinians, his attack on the public school system with his appointment Vos, His overt militarism, his appointment of federal judges of the most reactionary stripe he can find, his catering to violence and racism. I am unable to list all his regressive and dangerous policies, yes, many a continuation of what went before his term in office, like the drone murders and the continuing depredations in Afghanistan and Syria. > > Perhaps you should consult the reflections of your muse Noam Chomsky on all this. > > No, I have not forgotten about how Democrats have also played (many of) these vile games. > > All this reminds me that you have also forgotten about the crassness of Nixon, his subversion of law, his continuation of the Vietnam war, his anticommunist fervor. But yes, he as not all encompassing evil, as you point out.The times were such that he advanced some policies that now would be regarded as “liberal”. And how about his Secretary of State Kissinger, the mastermind of his foreign policy in Chile against Allende, but yes also China. > > As for Trump, he is a personal but consequential nonentity, ignorant, stupid, and amoral beyond measure. The two,Nixon and Trump, are not totally comparable, but Roth’s disgust certainly rhymes with what many of us feel today with the Trump/Republican administration. > —mkb From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Dec 29 02:45:03 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 20:45:03 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5BNew_post=5D_Politics_in_this_country?= =?utf-8?q?_has_never_felt_the_way_the_it_does_now=E2=80=A6?= In-Reply-To: <00c501d38010$e84d2bc0$b8e78340$@comcast.net> References: <84568989.9171.0@wordpress.com> <2822706F-4CA1-4BC0-9EDC-55481545833A@illinois.edu> <73335BCC-F374-4044-B8D1-DB1C1CC9D25B@illinois.edu> <00c501d38010$e84d2bc0$b8e78340$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5E3B5A81-9945-4C65-94F6-6FF59E207423@gmail.com> I’m surprised to see you approve of such an unhistorical account, David. Somehow on two occasions, 40 years apart, evil men snuck into the chief magistracy of the land and committed atrocities? We have to drive them out - and then we can go back to business as usual? That as far as I can tell is the present view of the political establishment (“#Resistance”). But I suspect they’re not being entirely candid. —CGE > On Dec 28, 2017, at 1:20 PM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Absolutely Mort ! > > What good Nixon did ( EPA, OSHA, etc. ) was because he was forced to by the huge mass revolt in the streets for civil rights, ending the Vietnam war, relatively large number of strikes and questioning capitalism itself. > Like Roosevelt before him, Nixon saw this as a way of somewhat appeasing the masses while maintaining the majority of the system intact. > > David J. > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss > Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 11:46 AM > To: Estabrook, Carl G > Cc: Peace Discuss > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [New post] Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… > > I don’t get it Carl. Just what do you disagree with about Roth’s description of his own disgust with American policy in the times he talks about? Be specific. All that you reply/comment upon below is beside the point. What I find particularly dismaying is your ambiguous defense of Trump, as if he were a great anticapitalist, anti-imperialist, peace maker. You have truly been fooled—that is a good word— by Trump's hope for a modus vivendi with Russia; now we can see that it was illusory—a US led NATO is on Russia’s borders and sanctions persist. Are you ignoring his military buildup, his threats to use and develop even more nuclear weapons, his crusade against N. Korea, his attack on the environment (EPA ) and anthropogenic climate change, his association with the fossil fuels complex and walking away from the Paris agreement. His continuation of threats against Iran linked to Israeli policies and against Palestinians, his attack on the public school system with his appointment Vos, His overt militarism, his appointment of federal judges of the most reactionary stripe he can find, his catering to violence and racism. I am unable to list all his regressive and dangerous policies, yes, many a continuation of what went before his term in office, like the drone murders and the continuing depredations in Afghanistan and Syria. > > Perhaps you should consult the reflections of your muse Noam Chomsky on all this. > > No, I have not forgotten about how Democrats have also played (many of) these vile games. > > All this reminds me that you have also forgotten about the crassness of Nixon, his subversion of law, his continuation of the Vietnam war, his anticommunist fervor. But yes, he as not all encompassing evil, as you point out.The times were such that he advanced some policies that now would be regarded as “liberal”. And how about his Secretary of State Kissinger, the mastermind of his foreign policy in Chile against Allende, but yes also China. > > As for Trump, he is a personal but consequential nonentity, ignorant, stupid, and amoral beyond measure. The two,Nixon and Trump, are not totally comparable, but Roth’s disgust certainly rhymes with what many of us feel today with the Trump/Republican administration. > —mkb > > > On Dec 27, 2017, at 4:03 PM, Carl G. Estabrook wrote: > > I disagree: all analogies limp, and Nixon/Trump is particularly spavined. Roth was writing at the high point of the social democratic arc that began with the New Deal. > > Nixon’s was the most liberal US administration since WWII, despite Nixon’s own views. (Even a guaranteed annual income was proposed by the administration but defeated by Democrats: see e.g., Daniel Patrick Moynihan, "The Politics of a Guaranteed Income: The Nixon Administration and the Family Assistance Plan" [1973].) > > Neoliberalism, the conscious, calculated construction of American business, was just getting underway. (See e.g., “The Crisis of Democracy: On the Governability of Democracies,” a 1975 report written by Michel Crozier, Samuel P. Huntington, and Joji Watanuki for the Trilateral Commission; it says that after ‘the sixties” the problems of governance in the US "stem from an excess of democracy" and thus advocates "to restore the prestige and authority of central government institutions” and the profitability of business.) > > Neoconservatism was being constructed, primarily by partisans of Israel who feared that the anti-war sentiment engendered by war in SE Asia would carry over into the Mideast. (By 1969 about 70% of the US public had come to regard the Vietnam war as “fundamentally wrong and immoral,” not “a mistake.”) > > Inequality in the US, on the decline since 1929, had reached its low point ca. 1970; the curve turned up, accelerated, and has now reached levels equivalent to those of 1929. For many Americans,”make America great again” means restoring the economic situation and life chances their parents knew in "les trente glorieuses" (1945-75), as Piketty calls those years. > > Trump was the first major party candidate in 40 years to attack the neoconservative (more war) and neoliberal (more inequality) policies that dominated all administrations from Carter’s through Obama’s; that’s in part why he was elected - as an inchoate protest against war and immiseration - against a pro-war and pro-Wall St. Democratic candidate. (See e.g., .) —CGE > > >> On Dec 27, 2017, at 11:12 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> This needs only a very little updating. >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> From: Corey Robin >> Subject: [New post] Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… >> Date: December 25, 2017 at 6:19:58 PM CST >> To: mkb3 at mac.com >> >> New post on Corey Robin >> >> >> >> Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… >> by Corey Robin >> "The Vietnam War years were the most 'politicized' of my life. I spent my days during this as a coercive force, its continuous presence in one's thoughts as far more than just an institutionalized system of regulations and controls. In sharp contrast to Chileans or Czechs, we hadn't personally to fear for our safety and could be as outspoken as we liked, but this did not diminish the sense of living in a country with a government out of control and wholly in business for itself. Reading the morning New York Times and the afternoon New York Post, watching the seven and then the eleven o'clock TV news—all of which I did ritualistically—became for me like living on a steady diet of Dostoevsky. Rather than fearing for the well-being of my own kin and country, I now felt toward America's war mission as I had toward the Axis goals in World War II. One even began to use the word 'America' as though it was the name not of the place where one had been raised to which one had a patriotic attachment, but of a foreign invader that had conquered the country and with whom one refused, to the best of one's strength and ability, to collaborate. Suddenly America had turned into 'them'—and with this sense of dispossession came the virulence of feeling and rhetoric that often characterized the anti-war movement. ...Of course there have been others as venal and lawless [as Richard Nixon] in American politics, but even a Joe McCarthy was more identifiable as human clay than this guy is. The wonder of Nixon (and contemporary America) is that a man so transparently fraudulent, if not on the edge of mental disorder, could ever have won the confidence and approval of a people who generally require at least a little something of the 'human touch' in their leaders. It's strange that someone so unlike the types most admired in the average voter...could have passed himself off to this Saturday Evening Post America as, of all things, an American." —Philip Roth, 1974 Corey Robin | December 25, 2017 at 7:19 pm | Tags: Philip Roth, Richard Nixon | Categories: Literature, The Right | URL: https://wp.me/p5IQfX-2nV Comment See all comments Unsubscribe to no longer receive posts from Corey Robin. Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions. Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://coreyrobin.com/2017/12/25/politics-in-this-country-has-never-felt-the-way-the-it-does-now/ _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Fri Dec 29 03:07:04 2017 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 21:07:04 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5BNew_post=5D_Politics_in_this_country?= =?utf-8?q?_has_never_felt_the_way_the_it_does_now=E2=80=A6?= In-Reply-To: <5E3B5A81-9945-4C65-94F6-6FF59E207423@gmail.com> References: <84568989.9171.0@wordpress.com> <2822706F-4CA1-4BC0-9EDC-55481545833A@illinois.edu> <73335BCC-F374-4044-B8D1-DB1C1CC9D25B@illinois.edu> <00c501d38010$e84d2bc0$b8e78340$@comcast.net> <5E3B5A81-9945-4C65-94F6-6FF59E207423@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01ab01d38052$1b326f00$51974d00$@comcast.net> Huh ? What you just said makes no sense in relation to what I said specifically referring to your comment that " Nixon was the last liberal President ". David J. -----Original Message----- From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 8:45 PM To: David Johnson Cc: Brussel, Morton K; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [New post] Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… I’m surprised to see you approve of such an unhistorical account, David. Somehow on two occasions, 40 years apart, evil men snuck into the chief magistracy of the land and committed atrocities? We have to drive them out - and then we can go back to business as usual? That as far as I can tell is the present view of the political establishment (“#Resistance”). But I suspect they’re not being entirely candid. —CGE > On Dec 28, 2017, at 1:20 PM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Absolutely Mort ! > > What good Nixon did ( EPA, OSHA, etc. ) was because he was forced to by the huge mass revolt in the streets for civil rights, ending the Vietnam war, relatively large number of strikes and questioning capitalism itself. > Like Roosevelt before him, Nixon saw this as a way of somewhat appeasing the masses while maintaining the majority of the system intact. > > David J. > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] > On Behalf Of Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss > Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 11:46 AM > To: Estabrook, Carl G > Cc: Peace Discuss > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [New post] Politics in this country has > never felt the way the it does now… > > I don’t get it Carl. Just what do you disagree with about Roth’s description of his own disgust with American policy in the times he talks about? Be specific. All that you reply/comment upon below is beside the point. What I find particularly dismaying is your ambiguous defense of Trump, as if he were a great anticapitalist, anti-imperialist, peace maker. You have truly been fooled—that is a good word— by Trump's hope for a modus vivendi with Russia; now we can see that it was illusory—a US led NATO is on Russia’s borders and sanctions persist. Are you ignoring his military buildup, his threats to use and develop even more nuclear weapons, his crusade against N. Korea, his attack on the environment (EPA ) and anthropogenic climate change, his association with the fossil fuels complex and walking away from the Paris agreement. His continuation of threats against Iran linked to Israeli policies and against Palestinians, his attack on the public school system with his appointment Vos, His overt militarism, his appointment of federal judges of the most reactionary stripe he can find, his catering to violence and racism. I am unable to list all his regressive and dangerous policies, yes, many a continuation of what went before his term in office, like the drone murders and the continuing depredations in Afghanistan and Syria. > > Perhaps you should consult the reflections of your muse Noam Chomsky on all this. > > No, I have not forgotten about how Democrats have also played (many of) these vile games. > > All this reminds me that you have also forgotten about the crassness of Nixon, his subversion of law, his continuation of the Vietnam war, his anticommunist fervor. But yes, he as not all encompassing evil, as you point out.The times were such that he advanced some policies that now would be regarded as “liberal”. And how about his Secretary of State Kissinger, the mastermind of his foreign policy in Chile against Allende, but yes also China. > > As for Trump, he is a personal but consequential nonentity, ignorant, stupid, and amoral beyond measure. The two,Nixon and Trump, are not totally comparable, but Roth’s disgust certainly rhymes with what many of us feel today with the Trump/Republican administration. > —mkb > > > On Dec 27, 2017, at 4:03 PM, Carl G. Estabrook wrote: > > I disagree: all analogies limp, and Nixon/Trump is particularly spavined. Roth was writing at the high point of the social democratic arc that began with the New Deal. > > Nixon’s was the most liberal US administration since WWII, despite > Nixon’s own views. (Even a guaranteed annual income was proposed by > the administration but defeated by Democrats: see e.g., Daniel Patrick > Moynihan, "The Politics of a Guaranteed Income: The Nixon > Administration and the Family Assistance Plan" [1973].) > > Neoliberalism, the conscious, calculated construction of American > business, was just getting underway. (See e.g., “The Crisis of > Democracy: On the Governability of Democracies,” a 1975 report written > by Michel Crozier, Samuel P. Huntington, and Joji Watanuki for the > Trilateral Commission; it says that after ‘the sixties” the problems > of governance in the US "stem from an excess of democracy" and thus > advocates "to restore the prestige and authority of central government > institutions” and the profitability of business.) > > Neoconservatism was being constructed, primarily by partisans of > Israel who feared that the anti-war sentiment engendered by war in SE > Asia would carry over into the Mideast. (By 1969 about 70% of the US > public had come to regard the Vietnam war as “fundamentally wrong and > immoral,” not “a mistake.”) > > Inequality in the US, on the decline since 1929, had reached its low point ca. 1970; the curve turned up, accelerated, and has now reached levels equivalent to those of 1929. For many Americans,”make America great again” means restoring the economic situation and life chances their parents knew in "les trente glorieuses" (1945-75), as Piketty calls those years. > > Trump was the first major party candidate in 40 years to attack the > neoconservative (more war) and neoliberal (more inequality) policies > that dominated all administrations from Carter’s through Obama’s; > that’s in part why he was elected - as an inchoate protest against war > and immiseration - against a pro-war and pro-Wall St. Democratic > candidate. (See e.g., > .) —CGE > > >> On Dec 27, 2017, at 11:12 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> This needs only a very little updating. >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> From: Corey Robin >> Subject: [New post] Politics in this country has never felt the way >> the it does now… >> Date: December 25, 2017 at 6:19:58 PM CST >> To: mkb3 at mac.com >> >> New post on Corey Robin >> >> >> >> Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… by >> Corey Robin "The Vietnam War years were the most 'politicized' of my >> life. I spent my days during this as a coercive force, its continuous presence in one's thoughts as far more than just an institutionalized system of regulations and controls. In sharp contrast to Chileans or Czechs, we hadn't personally to fear for our safety and could be as outspoken as we liked, but this did not diminish the sense of living in a country with a government out of control and wholly in business for itself. Reading the morning New York Times and the afternoon New York Post, watching the seven and then the eleven o'clock TV news—all of which I did ritualistically—became for me like living on a steady diet of Dostoevsky. Rather than fearing for the well-being of my own kin and country, I now felt toward America's war mission as I had toward the Axis goals in World War II. One even began to use the word 'America' as though it was the name not of the place where one had been raised to which one had a patriotic attachment, but of a foreign invader that had conquered the country and with whom one refused, to the best of one's strength and ability, to collaborate. Suddenly America had turned into 'them'—and with this sense of dispossession came the virulence of feeling and rhetoric that often characterized the anti-war movement. ...Of course there have been others as venal and lawless [as Richard Nixon] in American politics, but even a Joe McCarthy was more identifiable as human clay than this guy is. The wonder of Nixon (and contemporary America) is that a man so transparently fraudulent, if not on the edge of mental disorder, could ever have won the confidence and approval of a people who generally require at least a little something of the 'human touch' in their leaders. It's strange that someone so unlike the types most admired in the average voter...could have passed himself off to this Saturday Evening Post America as, of all things, an American." —Philip Roth, 1974 Corey Robin | December 25, 2017 at 7:19 pm | Tags: Philip Roth, Richard Nixon | Categories: Literature, The Right | URL: https://wp.me/p5IQfX-2nV Comment See all comments Unsubscribe to no longer receive posts from Corey Robin. Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions. Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://coreyrobin.com/2017/12/25/politics-in-this-country-has-never-felt-the-way-the-it-does-now/ _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Dec 29 03:32:04 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 21:32:04 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5BNew_post=5D_Politics_in_this_country?= =?utf-8?q?_has_never_felt_the_way_the_it_does_now=E2=80=A6?= In-Reply-To: <01ab01d38052$1b326f00$51974d00$@comcast.net> References: <84568989.9171.0@wordpress.com> <2822706F-4CA1-4BC0-9EDC-55481545833A@illinois.edu> <73335BCC-F374-4044-B8D1-DB1C1CC9D25B@illinois.edu> <00c501d38010$e84d2bc0$b8e78340$@comcast.net> <5E3B5A81-9945-4C65-94F6-6FF59E207423@gmail.com> <01ab01d38052$1b326f00$51974d00$@comcast.net> Message-ID: That’s not quite what I said. The Nixon administration was the culmination of the social democratic tradition that began in the New Deal, ran thru the Johnson administration (Medicare and Medicaid) and continued in Nixon’s. (You mention some examples; there are others.) Neoliberalism (and neoconservatism) first made inroads in the subsequent Carter administration. (Kennedy’s airline deregulation; Brzezinski’s arming of jihadists in Afghanistan.) One might note that both Nixon and Carter were persoanly opposed to the - opposite - directions their admisntrations took. Forgive me for struggling for irony in regard to the unhistorical account. It’s important to get the history right. But we surely make mistakes when we see political crimes as merely a matter of personal peccadilloes (“Trump is just like Nixon, and they’re both bad!”) If they can get you asking the wrong questions [“How do we get rid of Trump?!"], they don't have to worry about answers. —CGE > On Dec 28, 2017, at 9:07 PM, David Johnson wrote: > > Huh ? > > What you just said makes no sense in relation to what I said specifically referring to your comment that " Nixon was the last liberal President ". > > David J. > > -----Original Message----- > From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 8:45 PM > To: David Johnson > Cc: Brussel, Morton K; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [New post] Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… > > I’m surprised to see you approve of such an unhistorical account, David. > > Somehow on two occasions, 40 years apart, evil men snuck into the chief magistracy of the land and committed atrocities? > > We have to drive them out - and then we can go back to business as usual? > > That as far as I can tell is the present view of the political establishment (“#Resistance”). > > But I suspect they’re not being entirely candid. —CGE > > >> On Dec 28, 2017, at 1:20 PM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> Absolutely Mort ! >> >> What good Nixon did ( EPA, OSHA, etc. ) was because he was forced to by the huge mass revolt in the streets for civil rights, ending the Vietnam war, relatively large number of strikes and questioning capitalism itself. >> Like Roosevelt before him, Nixon saw this as a way of somewhat appeasing the masses while maintaining the majority of the system intact. >> >> David J. >> >> From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] >> On Behalf Of Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss >> Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 11:46 AM >> To: Estabrook, Carl G >> Cc: Peace Discuss >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [New post] Politics in this country has >> never felt the way the it does now… >> >> I don’t get it Carl. Just what do you disagree with about Roth’s description of his own disgust with American policy in the times he talks about? Be specific. All that you reply/comment upon below is beside the point. What I find particularly dismaying is your ambiguous defense of Trump, as if he were a great anticapitalist, anti-imperialist, peace maker. You have truly been fooled—that is a good word— by Trump's hope for a modus vivendi with Russia; now we can see that it was illusory—a US led NATO is on Russia’s borders and sanctions persist. Are you ignoring his military buildup, his threats to use and develop even more nuclear weapons, his crusade against N. Korea, his attack on the environment (EPA ) and anthropogenic climate change, his association with the fossil fuels complex and walking away from the Paris agreement. His continuation of threats against Iran linked to Israeli policies and against Palestinians, his attack on the public school system with his appointment Vos, His overt militarism, his appointment of federal judges of the most reactionary stripe he can find, his catering to violence and racism. I am unable to list all his regressive and dangerous policies, yes, many a continuation of what went before his term in office, like the drone murders and the continuing depredations in Afghanistan and Syria. >> >> Perhaps you should consult the reflections of your muse Noam Chomsky on all this. >> >> No, I have not forgotten about how Democrats have also played (many of) these vile games. >> >> All this reminds me that you have also forgotten about the crassness of Nixon, his subversion of law, his continuation of the Vietnam war, his anticommunist fervor. But yes, he as not all encompassing evil, as you point out.The times were such that he advanced some policies that now would be regarded as “liberal”. And how about his Secretary of State Kissinger, the mastermind of his foreign policy in Chile against Allende, but yes also China. >> >> As for Trump, he is a personal but consequential nonentity, ignorant, stupid, and amoral beyond measure. The two,Nixon and Trump, are not totally comparable, but Roth’s disgust certainly rhymes with what many of us feel today with the Trump/Republican administration. >> —mkb >> >> >> On Dec 27, 2017, at 4:03 PM, Carl G. Estabrook wrote: >> >> I disagree: all analogies limp, and Nixon/Trump is particularly spavined. Roth was writing at the high point of the social democratic arc that began with the New Deal. >> >> Nixon’s was the most liberal US administration since WWII, despite >> Nixon’s own views. (Even a guaranteed annual income was proposed by >> the administration but defeated by Democrats: see e.g., Daniel Patrick >> Moynihan, "The Politics of a Guaranteed Income: The Nixon >> Administration and the Family Assistance Plan" [1973].) >> >> Neoliberalism, the conscious, calculated construction of American >> business, was just getting underway. (See e.g., “The Crisis of >> Democracy: On the Governability of Democracies,” a 1975 report written >> by Michel Crozier, Samuel P. Huntington, and Joji Watanuki for the >> Trilateral Commission; it says that after ‘the sixties” the problems >> of governance in the US "stem from an excess of democracy" and thus >> advocates "to restore the prestige and authority of central government >> institutions” and the profitability of business.) >> >> Neoconservatism was being constructed, primarily by partisans of >> Israel who feared that the anti-war sentiment engendered by war in SE >> Asia would carry over into the Mideast. (By 1969 about 70% of the US >> public had come to regard the Vietnam war as “fundamentally wrong and >> immoral,” not “a mistake.”) >> >> Inequality in the US, on the decline since 1929, had reached its low point ca. 1970; the curve turned up, accelerated, and has now reached levels equivalent to those of 1929. For many Americans,”make America great again” means restoring the economic situation and life chances their parents knew in "les trente glorieuses" (1945-75), as Piketty calls those years. >> >> Trump was the first major party candidate in 40 years to attack the >> neoconservative (more war) and neoliberal (more inequality) policies >> that dominated all administrations from Carter’s through Obama’s; >> that’s in part why he was elected - as an inchoate protest against war >> and immiseration - against a pro-war and pro-Wall St. Democratic >> candidate. (See e.g., >> .) —CGE >> >> >>> On Dec 27, 2017, at 11:12 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> This needs only a very little updating. >>> >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> From: Corey Robin >>> Subject: [New post] Politics in this country has never felt the way >>> the it does now… >>> Date: December 25, 2017 at 6:19:58 PM CST >>> To: mkb3 at mac.com >>> >>> New post on Corey Robin >>> >>> >>> >>> Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… by >>> Corey Robin "The Vietnam War years were the most 'politicized' of my >>> life. I spent my days during this > as a coercive force, its continuous presence in one's thoughts as far more than just an institutionalized system of regulations and controls. In sharp contrast to Chileans or Czechs, we hadn't personally to fear for our safety and could be as outspoken as we liked, but this did not diminish the sense of living in a country with a government out of control and wholly in business for itself. Reading the morning New York Times and the afternoon New York Post, watching the seven and then the eleven o'clock TV news—all of which I did ritualistically—became for me like living on a steady diet of Dostoevsky. Rather than fearing for the well-being of my own kin and country, I now felt toward America's war mission as I had toward the Axis goals in World War II. One even began to use the word 'America' as though it was the name not of the place where one had been raised to which one had a patriotic attachment, but of a foreign invader that had conquered the country and with whom one refused, to the best of one's strength and ability, to collaborate. Suddenly America had turned into 'them'—and with this sense of dispossession came the virulence of feeling and rhetoric that often characterized the anti-war movement. > > ...Of course there have been others as venal and lawless [as Richard Nixon] in American politics, but even a Joe McCarthy was more identifiable as human clay than this guy is. The wonder of Nixon (and contemporary America) is that a man so transparently fraudulent, if not on the edge of mental disorder, could ever have won the confidence and approval of a people who generally require at least a little something of the 'human touch' in their leaders. It's strange that someone so unlike the types most admired in the average voter...could have passed himself off to this Saturday Evening Post America as, of all things, an American." > > —Philip Roth, 1974 > > Corey Robin | December 25, 2017 at 7:19 pm | Tags: Philip Roth, Richard Nixon | Categories: Literature, The Right | URL: https://wp.me/p5IQfX-2nV > > Comment > See all comments > Unsubscribe to no longer receive posts from Corey Robin. > Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions. > > Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: > http://coreyrobin.com/2017/12/25/politics-in-this-country-has-never-felt-the-way-the-it-does-now/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > From davegreen84 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 29 05:09:25 2017 From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 05:09:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5BNew_post=5D_Politics_in_this_country?= =?utf-8?q?_has_never_felt_the_way_the_it_does_now=E2=80=A6?= In-Reply-To: References: <84568989.9171.0@wordpress.com> <2822706F-4CA1-4BC0-9EDC-55481545833A@illinois.edu> <73335BCC-F374-4044-B8D1-DB1C1CC9D25B@illinois.edu> <00c501d38010$e84d2bc0$b8e78340$@comcast.net> <5E3B5A81-9945-4C65-94F6-6FF59E207423@gmail.com> <01ab01d38052$1b326f00$51974d00$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <880888705.5202712.1514524165345@mail.yahoo.com> It might be relevant to this discussion to refer to the conflict within the Nixon administration regarding Israel's occupation of the Sinai subsequent to 1967, which led to the 1973 war, oil embargo, etc. The Rogers (State Dept.) peace plan was overridden by Kissinger's (national security advisor) promotion of "stalemate," thus leading to Egypt's attack, of which Sadat had given a clear (if unheeded) warning. I don't know if there is a credible account of how Nixon actually "felt" in relation to these internal conflicts, but obviously Kissinger represented the rising neoconservative perspective in relation to Israel's indispensability to U.S. interests in the region. Nixon's notorious antipathy towards Jews wasn't to much effect in this instance, as U.S. aid to Israel was ramped up to an unprecedented level--and I doubt that Roth opposed that. DG On ‎Thursday‎, ‎December‎ ‎28‎, ‎2017‎ ‎09‎:‎32‎:‎31‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: That’s not quite what I said. The Nixon administration was the culmination of the social democratic tradition that began in the New Deal, ran thru the Johnson administration (Medicare and Medicaid) and continued in Nixon’s. (You mention some examples; there are others.) Neoliberalism (and neoconservatism) first made inroads in the subsequent Carter administration. (Kennedy’s airline deregulation; Brzezinski’s arming of jihadists in Afghanistan.) One might note that both Nixon and Carter were persoanly opposed to the - opposite - directions their admisntrations took.  Forgive me for struggling for irony in regard to the unhistorical account. It’s important to get the history right. But we surely make mistakes when we see political crimes as merely a matter of personal peccadilloes (“Trump is just like Nixon, and they’re both bad!”) If they can get you asking the wrong questions [“How do we get rid of Trump?!"], they don't have to worry about answers. —CGE > On Dec 28, 2017, at 9:07 PM, David Johnson wrote: > > Huh ? > > What you just said makes no sense in relation to what I said specifically referring to your comment that " Nixon was the last liberal President ". > > David J. > > -----Original Message----- > From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 8:45 PM > To: David Johnson > Cc: Brussel, Morton K; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [New post] Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… > > I’m surprised to see you approve of such an unhistorical account, David. > > Somehow on two occasions, 40 years apart, evil men snuck into the chief magistracy of the land and committed atrocities? > > We have to drive them out - and then we can go back to business as usual? > > That as far as I can tell is the present view of the political establishment (“#Resistance”). > > But I suspect they’re not being entirely candid. —CGE > > >> On Dec 28, 2017, at 1:20 PM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> Absolutely Mort ! >> >> What good Nixon did ( EPA, OSHA, etc. ) was because he was forced to by the huge mass revolt in the streets for civil rights, ending the Vietnam war, relatively large number of strikes and questioning capitalism itself. >> Like Roosevelt before him, Nixon saw this as a way of somewhat appeasing the masses while maintaining the majority of the system intact. >> >> David J. >> >> From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] >> On Behalf Of Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss >> Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 11:46 AM >> To: Estabrook, Carl G >> Cc: Peace Discuss >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [New post] Politics in this country has >> never felt the way the it does now… >> >> I don’t get it Carl.  Just what do you disagree with about Roth’s description of his own disgust with American policy in the times he talks about? Be specific. All that you reply/comment upon  below is beside the point. What I find particularly dismaying is your ambiguous defense of Trump, as if he were a great anticapitalist, anti-imperialist, peace maker. You have truly been fooled—that is a good word— by Trump's hope for a modus vivendi with Russia; now we can see that it was illusory—a US  led NATO is on Russia’s borders and sanctions persist. Are you ignoring his military buildup, his threats to use and develop even more nuclear weapons, his crusade against N. Korea, his attack on the environment (EPA ) and anthropogenic climate change, his association with the fossil fuels complex and walking away from the Paris agreement. His continuation of threats against Iran linked to Israeli policies and against Palestinians, his attack on the public school system with his appointment Vos, His overt militarism, his appointment of federal judges of the most reactionary stripe he can find, his catering to violence and racism. I am unable to list all his regressive and dangerous policies, yes, many a continuation of what went before his term in office, like the drone murders and the continuing depredations in Afghanistan and Syria. >> >> Perhaps you should consult the reflections of your muse Noam Chomsky on all this. >> >> No, I have not forgotten about how Democrats have also played (many of) these vile games. >> >> All this reminds me that you have also forgotten about the crassness of Nixon, his subversion of law, his continuation of the Vietnam war, his anticommunist fervor. But yes, he as not all encompassing evil, as you point out.The times were such that he advanced some policies that now would be regarded as “liberal”. And how about his Secretary of State Kissinger, the mastermind of his foreign policy in Chile against Allende, but yes also China.  >> >> As for Trump, he is a personal  but consequential nonentity, ignorant, stupid, and amoral beyond measure. The two,Nixon and Trump, are not totally comparable, but Roth’s disgust certainly rhymes with what many of us feel today with the Trump/Republican administration. >> —mkb >> >> >> On Dec 27, 2017, at 4:03 PM, Carl G. Estabrook wrote: >> >> I disagree: all analogies limp, and Nixon/Trump is particularly spavined. Roth was writing at the high point of the social democratic arc that began with the New Deal. >> >> Nixon’s was the most liberal US administration since WWII, despite >> Nixon’s own views. (Even a guaranteed annual income was proposed by >> the administration but defeated by Democrats: see e.g., Daniel Patrick >> Moynihan, "The Politics of a Guaranteed Income: The Nixon >> Administration and the Family Assistance Plan" [1973].) >> >> Neoliberalism, the conscious, calculated construction of American >> business, was just getting underway. (See e.g., “The Crisis of >> Democracy: On the Governability of Democracies,” a 1975 report written >> by Michel Crozier, Samuel P. Huntington, and Joji Watanuki for the >> Trilateral Commission; it says that after ‘the sixties” the problems >> of governance in the US "stem from an excess of democracy" and thus >> advocates "to restore the prestige and authority of central government >> institutions” and the profitability of business.) >> >> Neoconservatism was being constructed, primarily by partisans of >> Israel who feared that the anti-war sentiment engendered by war in SE >> Asia would carry over into the Mideast. (By 1969 about 70% of the US >> public had come to regard the Vietnam war as “fundamentally wrong and >> immoral,” not “a mistake.”) >> >> Inequality in the US, on the decline since 1929, had reached its low point ca. 1970; the curve turned up, accelerated, and has now reached levels equivalent to those of 1929. For many Americans,”make America great again” means restoring the economic situation and life chances their parents knew in "les trente glorieuses" (1945-75), as Piketty calls those years.  >> >> Trump was the first major party candidate in 40 years to attack the >> neoconservative (more war) and neoliberal (more inequality) policies >> that dominated all administrations from Carter’s through Obama’s; >> that’s in part why he was elected - as an inchoate protest against war >> and immiseration - against a pro-war and pro-Wall St. Democratic >> candidate. (See e.g.,  >> .)  —CGE >> >> >>> On Dec 27, 2017, at 11:12 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> This needs only a very little updating. >>> >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> From: Corey Robin >>> Subject: [New post] Politics in this country has never felt the way >>> the it does now… >>> Date: December 25, 2017 at 6:19:58 PM CST >>> To: mkb3 at mac.com >>> >>> New post on Corey Robin >>> >>> >>> >>> Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… by >>> Corey Robin "The Vietnam War years were the most 'politicized' of my >>> life. I spent my days during this > as a coercive force, its continuous presence in one's thoughts as far more than just an institutionalized system of regulations and controls. In sharp contrast to Chileans or Czechs, we hadn't personally to fear for our safety and could be as outspoken as we liked, but this did not diminish the sense of living in a country with a government out of control and wholly in business for itself. Reading the morning New York Times and the afternoon New York Post, watching the seven and then the eleven o'clock TV news—all of which I did ritualistically—became for me like living on a steady diet of Dostoevsky. Rather than fearing for the well-being of my own kin and country, I now felt toward America's war mission as I had toward the Axis goals in World War II. One even began to use the word 'America' as though it was the name not of the place where one had been raised to which one had a patriotic attachment, but of a foreign invader that had conquered the country and with whom one refused, to the best of one's strength and ability, to collaborate. Suddenly America had turned into 'them'—and with this sense of dispossession came the virulence of feeling and rhetoric that often characterized the anti-war movement. > > ...Of course there have been others as venal and lawless [as Richard Nixon] in American politics, but even a Joe McCarthy was more identifiable as human clay than this guy is. The wonder of Nixon (and contemporary America) is that a man so transparently fraudulent, if not on the edge of mental disorder, could ever have won the confidence and approval of a people who generally require at least a little something of the 'human touch' in their leaders. It's strange that someone so unlike the types most admired in the average voter...could have passed himself off to this Saturday Evening Post America as, of all things, an American." > > —Philip Roth, 1974 > > Corey Robin | December 25, 2017 at 7:19 pm | Tags: Philip Roth, Richard Nixon | Categories: Literature, The Right | URL: https://wp.me/p5IQfX-2nV > > Comment >  See all comments > Unsubscribe to no longer receive posts from Corey Robin. > Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions. > > Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: > http://coreyrobin.com/2017/12/25/politics-in-this-country-has-never-felt-the-way-the-it-does-now/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Dec 29 11:36:17 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 05:36:17 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Politics_in_this_country_has_always_fel?= =?utf-8?q?t_the_way_it_does_now=E2=80=A6?= In-Reply-To: <880888705.5202712.1514524165345@mail.yahoo.com> References: <84568989.9171.0@wordpress.com> <2822706F-4CA1-4BC0-9EDC-55481545833A@illinois.edu> <73335BCC-F374-4044-B8D1-DB1C1CC9D25B@illinois.edu> <00c501d38010$e84d2bc0$b8e78340$@comcast.net> <5E3B5A81-9945-4C65-94F6-6FF59E207423@gmail.com> <01ab01d38052$1b326f00$51974d00$@comcast.net> <880888705.5202712.1514524165345@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <355924B0-E65B-49E8-A71D-DB8C3F023EC7@gmail.com> Yes, and the Nixon-Kissinger patronage of Israel had little to do with love of Jews (and the influence of the Israel Lobby) and much to do with China. Israel was a “stationary aircraft carrier” for US control of the Mideast - and particularly for control of its oil flows, the object of which was what the Pentagon called ‘offshore control’ of the Chinese economy. Retarding Eurasian economic development is the cynosure of US foreign policy since the 19th century. The US a half-century ago imported only a fraction of its domestic energy needs from the Mideast (most of which came from the Atlantic basin - N & S America & W Africa - and still does), and that from Saudi Arabia. (In 1974, Kissinger arranged that Saudi Arabia should sell its oil only for dollars [“petrodollars”] - and those dollars should be deposited in NY banks.) Kissinger had attempted to realign geopolitics by an entente with China ( = Nixon’s "secret plan” for ending the Vietnam war - cf. Trump’s plan for ending the N. Korean crisis). In 1972 Nixon went to China, where he met with Chairman Mao Zedong. The US subsequently began to withdraw combat troops from Vietnam, because its conscript army revolted and began ‘fragging’ - killing - its officers, who insisted on gung-ho raids against the Vietnamese: cf. My Lai, where US soldiers killed 350-500 unarmed men, women, and children in March of 1968 - not a unique occurrence. Neoconservatism arose in the mid-1970s amongst partisans of Israel who feared that Americans’ revulsion at their SE Asian war would extend to SW Asia. The historic task of the Bush family was to scotch that. (After the US ‘Gulf War’ against Iraq in 1991, President Bush I declared, "By God, we've kicked the Vietnam syndrome once and for all,” - i.e., overcome Americans’ reluctance to go to war for the purposes of the 1%; Bush II subsequently presided over the greatest international crime - so far - of the 21st century, the US invasion of oil-producer Iraq, which killed a million people.). —CGE > On Dec 28, 2017, at 11:09 PM, David Green wrote: > > It might be relevant to this discussion to refer to the conflict within the Nixon administration regarding Israel's occupation of the Sinai subsequent to 1967, which led to the 1973 war, oil embargo, etc. The Rogers (State Dept.) peace plan was overridden by Kissinger's (national security advisor) promotion of "stalemate," thus leading to Egypt's attack, of which Sadat had given a clear (if unheeded) warning. I don't know if there is a credible account of how Nixon actually "felt" in relation to these internal conflicts, but obviously Kissinger represented the rising neoconservative perspective in relation to Israel's indispensability to U.S. interests in the region. Nixon's notorious antipathy towards Jews wasn't to much effect in this instance, as U.S. aid to Israel was ramped up to an unprecedented level--and I doubt that Roth opposed that. > > DG > On ‎Thursday‎, ‎December‎ ‎28‎, ‎2017‎ ‎09‎:‎32‎:‎31‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > That’s not quite what I said. The Nixon administration was the culmination of the social democratic tradition that began in the New Deal, ran thru the Johnson administration (Medicare and Medicaid) and continued in Nixon’s. (You mention some examples; there are others.) > > Neoliberalism (and neoconservatism) first made inroads in the subsequent Carter administration. (Kennedy’s airline deregulation; Brzezinski’s arming of jihadists in Afghanistan.) > > One might note that both Nixon and Carter were personally opposed to the - opposite - directions their administrations took. > > Forgive me for struggling for irony in regard to the unhistorical account. It’s important to get the history right. > > But we surely make mistakes when we see political crimes as merely a matter of personal peccadilloes (“Trump is just like Nixon, and they’re both bad!”) > > If they can get you asking the wrong questions [“How do we get rid of Trump?!"], they don't have to worry about answers. > > —CGE > > > > On Dec 28, 2017, at 9:07 PM, David Johnson wrote: > > > > Huh ? > > > > What you just said makes no sense in relation to what I said specifically referring to your comment that " Nixon was the last liberal President ". > > > > David J. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] > > Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 8:45 PM > > To: David Johnson > > Cc: Brussel, Morton K; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [New post] Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… > > > > I’m surprised to see you approve of such an unhistorical account, David. > > > > Somehow on two occasions, 40 years apart, evil men snuck into the chief magistracy of the land and committed atrocities? > > > > We have to drive them out - and then we can go back to business as usual? > > > > That as far as I can tell is the present view of the political establishment (“#Resistance”). > > > > But I suspect they’re not being entirely candid. —CGE > > > > > >> On Dec 28, 2017, at 1:20 PM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: > >> > >> Absolutely Mort ! > >> > >> What good Nixon did ( EPA, OSHA, etc. ) was because he was forced to by the huge mass revolt in the streets for civil rights, ending the Vietnam war, relatively large number of strikes and questioning capitalism itself. > >> Like Roosevelt before him, Nixon saw this as a way of somewhat appeasing the masses while maintaining the majority of the system intact. > >> > >> David J. > >> > >> From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] > >> On Behalf Of Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss > >> Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 11:46 AM > >> To: Estabrook, Carl G > >> Cc: Peace Discuss > >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [New post] Politics in this country has > >> never felt the way the it does now… > >> > >> I don’t get it Carl. Just what do you disagree with about Roth’s description of his own disgust with American policy in the times he talks about? Be specific. All that you reply/comment upon below is beside the point. What I find particularly dismaying is your ambiguous defense of Trump, as if he were a great anticapitalist, anti-imperialist, peace maker. You have truly been fooled—that is a good word— by Trump's hope for a modus vivendi with Russia; now we can see that it was illusory—a US led NATO is on Russia’s borders and sanctions persist. Are you ignoring his military buildup, his threats to use and develop even more nuclear weapons, his crusade against N. Korea, his attack on the environment (EPA ) and anthropogenic climate change, his association with the fossil fuels complex and walking away from the Paris agreement. His continuation of threats against Iran linked to Israeli policies and against Palestinians, his attack on the public school system with his appointment Vos, His overt militarism, his appointment of federal judges of the most reactionary stripe he can find, his catering to violence and racism. I am unable to list all his regressive and dangerous policies, yes, many a continuation of what went before his term in office, like the drone murders and the continuing depredations in Afghanistan and Syria. > >> > >> Perhaps you should consult the reflections of your muse Noam Chomsky on all this. > >> > >> No, I have not forgotten about how Democrats have also played (many of) these vile games. > >> > >> All this reminds me that you have also forgotten about the crassness of Nixon, his subversion of law, his continuation of the Vietnam war, his anticommunist fervor. But yes, he as not all encompassing evil, as you point out.The times were such that he advanced some policies that now would be regarded as “liberal”. And how about his Secretary of State Kissinger, the mastermind of his foreign policy in Chile against Allende, but yes also China. > >> > >> As for Trump, he is a personal but consequential nonentity, ignorant, stupid, and amoral beyond measure. The two,Nixon and Trump, are not totally comparable, but Roth’s disgust certainly rhymes with what many of us feel today with the Trump/Republican administration. > >> —mkb > >> > >> > >> On Dec 27, 2017, at 4:03 PM, Carl G. Estabrook wrote: > >> > >> I disagree: all analogies limp, and Nixon/Trump is particularly spavined. Roth was writing at the high point of the social democratic arc that began with the New Deal. > >> > >> Nixon’s was the most liberal US administration since WWII, despite > >> Nixon’s own views. (Even a guaranteed annual income was proposed by > >> the administration but defeated by Democrats: see e.g., Daniel Patrick > >> Moynihan, "The Politics of a Guaranteed Income: The Nixon > >> Administration and the Family Assistance Plan" [1973].) > >> > >> Neoliberalism, the conscious, calculated construction of American > >> business, was just getting underway. (See e.g., “The Crisis of > >> Democracy: On the Governability of Democracies,” a 1975 report written > >> by Michel Crozier, Samuel P. Huntington, and Joji Watanuki for the > >> Trilateral Commission; it says that after ‘the sixties” the problems > >> of governance in the US "stem from an excess of democracy" and thus > >> advocates "to restore the prestige and authority of central government > >> institutions” and the profitability of business.) > >> > >> Neoconservatism was being constructed, primarily by partisans of > >> Israel who feared that the anti-war sentiment engendered by war in SE > >> Asia would carry over into the Mideast. (By 1969 about 70% of the US > >> public had come to regard the Vietnam war as “fundamentally wrong and > >> immoral,” not “a mistake.”) > >> > >> Inequality in the US, on the decline since 1929, had reached its low point ca. 1970; the curve turned up, accelerated, and has now reached levels equivalent to those of 1929. For many Americans,”make America great again” means restoring the economic situation and life chances their parents knew in "les trente glorieuses" (1945-75), as Piketty calls those years. > >> > >> Trump was the first major party candidate in 40 years to attack the > >> neoconservative (more war) and neoliberal (more inequality) policies > >> that dominated all administrations from Carter’s through Obama’s; > >> that’s in part why he was elected - as an inchoate protest against war > >> and immiseration - against a pro-war and pro-Wall St. Democratic > >> candidate. (See e.g., > >> .) —CGE > >> > >> > >>> On Dec 27, 2017, at 11:12 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss wrote: > >>> > >>> This needs only a very little updating. > >>> > >>> > >>> Begin forwarded message: > >>> > >>> From: Corey Robin > >>> Subject: [New post] Politics in this country has never felt the way > >>> the it does now… > >>> Date: December 25, 2017 at 6:19:58 PM CST > >>> To: mkb3 at mac.com > >>> > >>> New post on Corey Robin > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Politics in this country has never felt the way the it does now… by > >>> Corey Robin "The Vietnam War years were the most 'politicized' of my > >>> life. I spent my days during this > > as a coercive force, its continuous presence in one's thoughts as far more than just an institutionalized system of regulations and controls. In sharp contrast to Chileans or Czechs, we hadn't personally to fear for our safety and could be as outspoken as we liked, but this did not diminish the sense of living in a country with a government out of control and wholly in business for itself. Reading the morning New York Times and the afternoon New York Post, watching the seven and then the eleven o'clock TV news—all of which I did ritualistically—became for me like living on a steady diet of Dostoevsky. Rather than fearing for the well-being of my own kin and country, I now felt toward America's war mission as I had toward the Axis goals in World War II. One even began to use the word 'America' as though it was the name not of the place where one had been raised to which one had a patriotic attachment, but of a foreign invader that had conquered the country and with whom one refused, to the best of one's strength and ability, to collaborate. Suddenly America had turned into 'them'—and with this sense of dispossession came the virulence of feeling and rhetoric that often characterized the anti-war movement. > > > > ...Of course there have been others as venal and lawless [as Richard Nixon] in American politics, but even a Joe McCarthy was more identifiable as human clay than this guy is. The wonder of Nixon (and contemporary America) is that a man so transparently fraudulent, if not on the edge of mental disorder, could ever have won the confidence and approval of a people who generally require at least a little something of the 'human touch' in their leaders. It's strange that someone so unlike the types most admired in the average voter...could have passed himself off to this Saturday Evening Post America as, of all things, an American." > > > > —Philip Roth, 1974 > > > > Corey Robin | December 25, 2017 at 7:19 pm | Tags: Philip Roth, Richard Nixon | Categories: Literature, The Right | URL: https://wp.me/p5IQfX-2nV > > > > Comment > > See all comments > > Unsubscribe to no longer receive posts from Corey Robin. > > Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions. > > > > Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: > > http://coreyrobin.com/2017/12/25/politics-in-this-country-has-never-felt-the-way-the-it-does-now/ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Peace-discuss mailing list > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Peace-discuss mailing list > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From fboyle at illinois.edu Fri Dec 29 19:57:34 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 19:57:34 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: Trump for Dershowitz/Dersh for Trump! Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 1:55 PM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: Trump for Dershowitz/Dersh for Trump! Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A [mailto:fboyle at illinois.edu] Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2013 7:25 AM To: Killeacle > Subject: FW: Dershowitz Retires from Harvard Law School Alan Dershowitz Retires From Harvard Law School By Francis Boyle 21 December, 2013 Countercurrents.org Alan Dershowitz, a prominent advocate for Israel, is retiring from Harvard Law School. Dershowitz Accused of War Crimes - On one issue-the Jewish settlements in the occupied lands-Israel has {already} been found, by an international court, to be in violation of international law. This has caused a firestorm of reaction from Israel, and its apologists, like Harvard's Alan Dershowitz. But, Francis Boyle and a number of other American human rights advocates have taken on Dershowitz on, and are ready to do it again. The settlements are "clearly illegal and criminal," said Boyle. "All the settlements, as the World Court ruled in the advisory opinion on the [Separation] Wall, all these settlements violate the Fourth Geneva Convention, and a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention is a war crime. All these so-called settlers are committing war crimes, except the children, who are obviously not old enough to formulate a criminal intent. "Indeed, Alan Dershowitz began attacking the World Court for this ruling and attacking their credibility, and this, that, and the other. "Well, Dershowitz is not a trained international lawyer; he's not a trained human rights lawyer. I debated him once, and he sort of gratuitously conceded that I was the expert on these subjects. "But in any event, what Dershowitz was not aware of, was that in the advisory committee proceedings, the American judge, Thomas Buergenthal, {who is a Holocaust survivor, himself}, joined the ruling-he dissented against a lot of other things by the World Court [International Court of Justice]-but Judge Buergenthal ruled that the settlements violate the Fourth Geneva Convention. And to Judge Buergenthal's credit-I've known him for many years; I have a lot of respect and admiration for him-he made this ruling. "So, in other words, Dershowitz was attacking the integrity of a Holocaust survivor. But of course, that doesn't surprise me: He attacked [Prof.] Norman Finkelstein's mother; he also attacked Prof. Israel Shahak, one of the leaders of the peace movement in Israel, himself a Holocaust survivor, unfortunately, no longer with us, but a great man. "I've dealt with [Shahak], I have great respect, and indeed, he was going to have a lecture tour here in the United States, in, I guess, the Fall of 1990, and he was coming to speak in Champaign, [Ill.], and the organizers of his lecture tour asked me if I would put him up in my home as my guest, in order to conserve on expenses, and I agreed. And I was greatly looking forward again to meeting Professor Shahak.... But as you know, with the Gulf crisis, Professor Shahak decided to cancel his lecture tour and stay home with his own people, which was certainly understandable. "Dershowitz couldn't care less. Whatever kind of outright character assassination he has to apply to anyone, even Holocaust survivors like Judge Buergenthal, Professor Shahak, Norman Finkelstein's mother, it doesn't bother Dershowitz. Indeed, my understanding is, he's trying to run to become President of Israel, to take Peres's place. Well, fine, it would be great to get him out of Harvard Law School-my dis-alma mater!-and ship him over to Israel with all the other war criminals over there. "In fact, I say that, because Dershowitz admitted, publicly, that he is part of a Mossad committee that authorized the assassination of Palestinians. "You can find that article on counterpunch.org, by Prof. [Liquat Ali] Khan. Well, the Palestinians are all protected persons under the Fourth Geneva Convention, and for Dershowitz to authorize their murder is a war crime. So, Dershowitz is a {prima facie} war criminal, who should be prosecuted himself. "And there he is, teaching at the Harvard Law School, and advocating torture, crimes against humanity, war crimes against the Palestinians. As you know, he said, `Well, we should just be obliterating their villages. You know, if they do this, there's a terror bombing here, we [should] destroy one of their villages.' "And, of course, Dershowitz also advocates torture here, in America. The guy's shameless. "I remember, [when] I started [at Harvard], Dershowitz started as an assistant professor, and his first big case was defending a pornographic film star in `Deep Throat.' Dershowitz likes to present himself as some great defender of the First Amendment.... Well, as Catherine McKinnon has, I think, taught us all, pornography is a form of violence against women: It's a human rights matter. So, it doesn't surprise me that Dershowitz started his career defending pornographers and pornography, and was and still is greatly proud of it-and now he moves on to defending war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide, and in addition, over the years, became a war criminal himself. "But the sum of it is, he's still teaching there at Harvard Law School. So, I hope he goes back to Israel and becomes President, sure! Be great to see him go: Bon voyage." Professor Francis A. Boyle is an international law expert and served as Legal Advisor to the Palestine Liberation Organization and Yasser Arafat on the 1988 Palestinian Declaration of Independence, as well as to the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East Peace Negotiations from 1991 to 1993, where he drafted the Palestinian counter-offer to the now defunct Oslo Agreement. His books include " Palestine, Palestinians and International Law" (2003), and " The Palestinian Right of Return under International Law" (2010). ________________________________ Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A [mailto:fboyle at illinois.edu] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2013 6:16 PM To: Killeacle Subject: Dershowitz Retires from Harvard Law School News Alan Dershowitz Retires From Harvard Law School CounterCurrents.org Professor Francis A. Boyle is an international law expert and served as Legal Advisor to the Palestine Liberation Organization and Yasser Arafat on ... See all stories on this topic > ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Fri Dec 29 19:57:34 2017 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 19:57:34 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: Trump for Dershowitz/Dersh for Trump! Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 1:55 PM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: Trump for Dershowitz/Dersh for Trump! Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A [mailto:fboyle at illinois.edu] Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2013 7:25 AM To: Killeacle > Subject: FW: Dershowitz Retires from Harvard Law School Alan Dershowitz Retires From Harvard Law School By Francis Boyle 21 December, 2013 Countercurrents.org Alan Dershowitz, a prominent advocate for Israel, is retiring from Harvard Law School. Dershowitz Accused of War Crimes - On one issue-the Jewish settlements in the occupied lands-Israel has {already} been found, by an international court, to be in violation of international law. This has caused a firestorm of reaction from Israel, and its apologists, like Harvard's Alan Dershowitz. But, Francis Boyle and a number of other American human rights advocates have taken on Dershowitz on, and are ready to do it again. The settlements are "clearly illegal and criminal," said Boyle. "All the settlements, as the World Court ruled in the advisory opinion on the [Separation] Wall, all these settlements violate the Fourth Geneva Convention, and a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention is a war crime. All these so-called settlers are committing war crimes, except the children, who are obviously not old enough to formulate a criminal intent. "Indeed, Alan Dershowitz began attacking the World Court for this ruling and attacking their credibility, and this, that, and the other. "Well, Dershowitz is not a trained international lawyer; he's not a trained human rights lawyer. I debated him once, and he sort of gratuitously conceded that I was the expert on these subjects. "But in any event, what Dershowitz was not aware of, was that in the advisory committee proceedings, the American judge, Thomas Buergenthal, {who is a Holocaust survivor, himself}, joined the ruling-he dissented against a lot of other things by the World Court [International Court of Justice]-but Judge Buergenthal ruled that the settlements violate the Fourth Geneva Convention. And to Judge Buergenthal's credit-I've known him for many years; I have a lot of respect and admiration for him-he made this ruling. "So, in other words, Dershowitz was attacking the integrity of a Holocaust survivor. But of course, that doesn't surprise me: He attacked [Prof.] Norman Finkelstein's mother; he also attacked Prof. Israel Shahak, one of the leaders of the peace movement in Israel, himself a Holocaust survivor, unfortunately, no longer with us, but a great man. "I've dealt with [Shahak], I have great respect, and indeed, he was going to have a lecture tour here in the United States, in, I guess, the Fall of 1990, and he was coming to speak in Champaign, [Ill.], and the organizers of his lecture tour asked me if I would put him up in my home as my guest, in order to conserve on expenses, and I agreed. And I was greatly looking forward again to meeting Professor Shahak.... But as you know, with the Gulf crisis, Professor Shahak decided to cancel his lecture tour and stay home with his own people, which was certainly understandable. "Dershowitz couldn't care less. Whatever kind of outright character assassination he has to apply to anyone, even Holocaust survivors like Judge Buergenthal, Professor Shahak, Norman Finkelstein's mother, it doesn't bother Dershowitz. Indeed, my understanding is, he's trying to run to become President of Israel, to take Peres's place. Well, fine, it would be great to get him out of Harvard Law School-my dis-alma mater!-and ship him over to Israel with all the other war criminals over there. "In fact, I say that, because Dershowitz admitted, publicly, that he is part of a Mossad committee that authorized the assassination of Palestinians. "You can find that article on counterpunch.org, by Prof. [Liquat Ali] Khan. Well, the Palestinians are all protected persons under the Fourth Geneva Convention, and for Dershowitz to authorize their murder is a war crime. So, Dershowitz is a {prima facie} war criminal, who should be prosecuted himself. "And there he is, teaching at the Harvard Law School, and advocating torture, crimes against humanity, war crimes against the Palestinians. As you know, he said, `Well, we should just be obliterating their villages. You know, if they do this, there's a terror bombing here, we [should] destroy one of their villages.' "And, of course, Dershowitz also advocates torture here, in America. The guy's shameless. "I remember, [when] I started [at Harvard], Dershowitz started as an assistant professor, and his first big case was defending a pornographic film star in `Deep Throat.' Dershowitz likes to present himself as some great defender of the First Amendment.... Well, as Catherine McKinnon has, I think, taught us all, pornography is a form of violence against women: It's a human rights matter. So, it doesn't surprise me that Dershowitz started his career defending pornographers and pornography, and was and still is greatly proud of it-and now he moves on to defending war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide, and in addition, over the years, became a war criminal himself. "But the sum of it is, he's still teaching there at Harvard Law School. So, I hope he goes back to Israel and becomes President, sure! Be great to see him go: Bon voyage." Professor Francis A. Boyle is an international law expert and served as Legal Advisor to the Palestine Liberation Organization and Yasser Arafat on the 1988 Palestinian Declaration of Independence, as well as to the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East Peace Negotiations from 1991 to 1993, where he drafted the Palestinian counter-offer to the now defunct Oslo Agreement. His books include " Palestine, Palestinians and International Law" (2003), and " The Palestinian Right of Return under International Law" (2010). ________________________________ Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A [mailto:fboyle at illinois.edu] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2013 6:16 PM To: Killeacle Subject: Dershowitz Retires from Harvard Law School News Alan Dershowitz Retires From Harvard Law School CounterCurrents.org Professor Francis A. Boyle is an international law expert and served as Legal Advisor to the Palestine Liberation Organization and Yasser Arafat on ... See all stories on this topic > ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sun Dec 31 00:27:04 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 00:27:04 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Stephen Cohen interview on The Real News. Message-ID: ________________________________ December 30, 2017 Did Russiagate Just Escalate Ukraine's War? President Trump has agreed to arm the Ukrainian military in its fight with Russian-backed forces in the Donbass region. Leading Russia scholar Stephen F. Cohen says it’s the latest Russiagate-driven escalation of the new Cold War. [http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/scohen1227ukraine-240.jpg]AARON MATÉ: It's the Real News. I'm Aaron Maté. President Trump has approved a major weapons sale that could inflame the conflict in eastern Ukraine. Trump has reportedly agreed to supply the Ukrainian military with Javelin anti-tank missiles to fight Russian back forces in the eastern Donbass region. President Obama had considered a similar move but ultimately ruled against it when he was in office because he didn't want to fuel a proxy war. Now Russia says Trump's decision makes the U.S. "an accomplice in igniting a war". Stephen F. Cohen is professor emeritus of Russian studies, history, and politics at New York University and Princeton University. Professor Cohen, welcome. What does Trump's decision mean for the conflict in Ukraine? STEPHEN COHEN: Well, it's going to make everything worse. I mean, it certainly could not have been done, possibly, for political reasons. The official reason insofar as you can get an official reason for anything being done in Washington these days, is that we're sending defense aid weapons. I have no idea what a defense aid weapon is. Is it artillery that only shoots in one direction? I mean, there really is no such thing as defense aid weapons unless it's body armor. These are weapons. Exalted weapons. The official reason is it's to keep Russia from committing a new military offensive against Ukraine. But there is no possibility of that whatsoever. The only two alleged -- and I think there are two sides to this story -- military offenses reportedly, and this will outrage many of your viewers, but so be it, that Russia committed against Ukraine was the annexation of Crimea and support for what is an indigenous civil war in Donbass against the Kiev government. That happened in 2014. What is it? Going on nearly four years ago. The rebels, if we can call them that, in Donbass do not fight outside their own territory. They're essentially defending the Donbass against the armies of Kiev. There's no evidence whatsoever that Russia's going to launch a new offence against Ukraine, and, therefore, Ukraine, Kiev in particular, needs these weapons. I think it's bad on all counts. It discourages Kiev from negotiating according to the Minsk agreements, which remain the only roadmap we have supported by Europe for peace in Ukraine. It utterly discourages them. It also makes no sense militarily because Russia can escalate much faster than the United States can, since Ukraine is on its borders. Obama, himself, who was pressured to give these weapons to Ukraine, again by Liberal Democrats and others, refused on that grounds. He said, "What the point? We have to ship all this stuff to Ukraine, and Russia will just truck it across the border into the Donbass and counter it." It's just escalation. In all likelihood, more deaths, more fighting. But here's what really worries me, Aaron. The government, the regime in Kiev, which we support, is a very sick, if not dying, regime. It has no popularity. The president, Poroshenko, I think his favorable ratings are something like 3, 4, 5 percent. For all the glad-handing about Ukraine's reasonable recent economic success, there is almost none. It's a dying economy. Its GDP is, I think, a full third less than what it was when the war began in 2014. What democracy exists in the country is greatly endangered by armed neo-fascist battalions that hate Poroshenko as much as they hate Russia. To give such a government, that might be in its death agonies, weapons. Stop and think, historically, what striken governments do to try to save themselves. They go to war. To try to save themselves, to build popular support at home. If these weapons, and I don't know how many there are going to be or what kind they're going to be. Trump clearly didn't want to do it. He was compelled to do it. He may drag his feet on implementing it, but if these weapons are enough to make Kiev think it could stage one last successful offense against the rebels in Donbass, even though two previous ended disastrously for Kiev, then it risks broader, more murderous war with Russia because it's a proxy war. I think it's a reckless, dangerous, and pointless decision done for political -- not military or strategic -- reasons. AARON MATÉ: And political reasons do you think those are? STEPHEN COHEN: Well, we know what they are. I mean, come on. What have we watched. I mean, we may think that Trump is the worst president in American history. Be my guest. Maybe he is. I don't know. Everybody says so on CNN and MSN. He's the worst president we ever had. Okay. But he's done one thing that's absolutely essential. And I have to now give my broader perspective. We are in new cold war that is much more dangerous than the last cold war for various reasons. One is that the new cold war today, as we talk, includes three fronts. U.S.-Russian fronts, they're fought with hot war. That's Syria. That's the reckless NATO military build-up on Russia's western boarders, which has resulted in a situation today that ordinarily artillery, not missiles, ordinary artillery, can hit Russia's second city of Saint Petersburg. Just think about that and the instability. And the third front is Ukraine. Which has been, as people say, more or less frozen because Kiev couldn't mount a new offense. If it does that, then the consequences that I spoke of will follow. Trump clearly, however bad of president he's been, in these new cold war conditions, had an idea when he campaigned. He didn't state it in a policy wonkish way. He just said, "Wouldn't it be great to cooperate with Russia?" Yes. I think it would be more than great. I think it's in our national security. It's vital in these dangerous circumstances to cooperate with Russia. But you know what's happened better than I do. You've been following this story. Somebody cooked up this Russiagate bunk that any cooperation with Russia was clearly treasonous because Putin put Trump in office. Complete nonsense. Reckless nonsense. Every time Trump does something that we would have been grateful to previous presidents for doing -- going back to Eisenhower in the first détente, and even Nixon in his détente, and Reagan with his détente with the Soviet Union that he thought had ended the Cold War. We all said, "Good. Good. At last we don't live under the danger of nuclear war and all the rest." Trump does any of that, and he tried to do quite a bit. He's denounced in the New York Times, the Washington Post, CNN, MSN, NBC, and all the rest as a treasonous president. He gives them something. He has his secretary of state, who clearly doesn't believe it, Rex Tillerson, say highly accusatory things about Russia. Things that secretary of states don't usually say because they're supposed to do diplomacy. And Trump has been giving these hawks, who are feeding off Russiagate, bits of what they want. The last bit are these weapons to Ukraine. It's the only reason for it. It makes no sense. It's detrimental to our national interests in every other regard. This is why I have argued, and all your liberal progressive friends say I'm a traitor too, that it's Russiagate and these false allegations, not Trump, that constitute the main danger to American national security. You can see it again with this shipment of arms to Ukraine. AARON MATÉ: Professor Cohen, what do you think, if at all, the Russiagate story actually is? I mean, so much of it has been based on this Steele dossier, which was paid for by private sources. Trump's opponents first in the Republican party and then by the Clinton campaign and the DNC. Do you think there's any weight to the story at all that Putin and the Russian government might have had some sort of campaign to promote Trump's election, even in a minor way? STEPHEN COHEN: Ah, even in a minor way. Sure, because great powers -- and Russia even when it's on its knees is a great power by virtue of its size and nuclear weapons and talented citizens -- great powers meddle in other country's political affairs. We do it more than anybody else. Just look at the budget for our foreign broadcasting. It far exceeds what Russia spends for its RT Television network or its radio network, Sputnik. This is what great powers do to prove they're great. They meddle in other people's internal affairs. If you're asking me is it possible that some Russians, possibly even some with official connections -- I have no idea what the expression "link to the Kremlin" means, but with some official connections -- pumped their version of information into our media space during the 2016 election, I would say probably so. So what? If you regard this as somehow decisive, then you have utter contempt for American voters. You're saying that we're zombies just waiting for a signal from Putin to tell us how to vote. Or to develop our conflicts. I mean, the next thing that we're going to hear is that Putin invented slavery in America which led to our racial problems. This is beyond preposterous. The people, the dimwits, who cook up these narratives aren't even smart. I can make up better stories than that. Which brings us to this dossier you mentioned. This thing allegedly compiled by a retired British intelligence agency. First of all, almost none of it's been verified, other than the fact that Trump was once in Moscow in 2013 for a beauty pageant. But you could have read that in the newspapers. The dossier is a weird document. Steele says he got all the information from Russian intelligence officers in high places, and he paid them maybe over a million dollars for this. Now, take it in context. We say Putin is the master KGB agent. By the way, if he was a master KGB agent, how come he never got promoted beyond the rank of colonel? Because I have a number of friends, and they were friends, they were fellow historians, who are KGB guys, FSB guys in the post-Soviet period, who were historians. I worked in the archives with them. They were Putin's age, and they were generals. Putin couldn't have been that master for a KGB agent. But let's say it's so. Really, would these people in and around the Kremlin really risk their families, their jobs, their status, maybe their lives, by sending illicit information to some guy in London who hadn't been in Russia in 15 years? How did he pay them? How did they transmit the information? And why in the dossier are there so many factual errors? An informed person in or around the Kremlin wouldn't have made those factual errors. People who make those kinds of factual errors are Western intelligence services. So I'm not sure where Steele got his information. But we do know one thing, that that dossier led to getting an eavesdropping warrant on Carter Page, who if there was ever an innocent person who ever walked the face of the world, it's Carter Page. He actually believes in the American dream, every bit of it, from the naval academy on. But this dossier has played a very nefarious role. It seems to have been what the intelligence community had in mind when it published in January of this year the report that A, Putin had ordered the hacking, had ordered it done through WikiLeaks, and had done it to help Trump. The dossier is the so-called "highly classified" information they can't show us, and most of it is ... not only is not verifiable, it doesn't make any sense. Russiagate, the dossier, all of this, coming in the context of this new and more dangerous cold war, Russiagate puts us at great risk. Because, as I wrote in the Nation recently, ever since the beginning of the atomic age, ever since the Soviet Union got the bomb in 1949, and we had it, we have counted on an American president to avoid the most existential catastrophic fate, and that is nuclear war with Russia. And we've supported, generally speaking, except maybe the John Birch Society and some of the other crazies. Generally speaking, bipartisan America has supported American presidents in this existential duty to avoid nuclear war. Trump is being deprived of the ability to pursue that first obligation. Again, existential to us. I've never seen anything like it, and I don't think there's ever been anything like it in American history. AARON MATÉ: We have to leave it there. Profession Stephen Cohen. Professor emeritus of Russian studies, history, and politics at New York University and Princeton University. Thank you. STEPHEN COHEN: Thank you, Aaron. AARON MATÉ: And thank you for joining us on the Real News. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: