[Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune

Mon Jul 2 14:39:59 UTC 2018

"Their sheepdogs - Sanders, Ocasio - are counsels of despair"

Sanders ran against Hillary and came very close to bringing her down.

Ocasio just toppled the number four Democrat in the House. During the
campaign, she refused to support Pelosi as Democratic Leader. After she
won, she had a public fight with Pelosi.

There is, absolutely, tremendous corruption at the top of the Democratic
Party, if by "corruption" we mean not only "taking from the till" but also
"doing the opposite of what the people who elected you would want, because
that's what your rich friends want" when it comes to corporate power and
militarism.

But erasing distinctions between Sanders-Ocasio and Hillary-Pelosi isn't
going to make that any better. On the contrary, to the extent that such
erasing of distinctions is successful, it will slow down the process of
holding Hillary-Pelosi Democrats to account.

Robert Naiman
Policy Director
Just Foreign Policy
www.justforeignpolicy.org
naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
(202) 448-2898 x1

On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 9:20 AM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

> The Clinton administration’s NAFTA is a main source of the disruption of
> Mexican agriculture that sends immigrants north.  It’s clear whom both
> Clintons and Obama were working for "at the presidential level.” Trump’s
> opposition to them gained him votes.
>
> And “a bunch of working class Democrats in Wisconsin, Michigan, and
> Pennsylvania didn't trust Hillary" or Obama also on war - their kids were
> unable to find jobs, entered the military, and killed and died in
> Obama-Clinton’s hidden wars: <https://www.zerohedge.com/
> news/2017-07-11/new-study-suggests-war-lust-may-have-
> cost-hillary-clinton-election>.
>
> Trump’s attacks on Obama-Clinton’s neoconservative and neoliberal policies
> - he was the first candidate since the rise of corporate globalism in the
> Carter administration to do that - made him president. The US political
> establishment has worked hard to make him conform to the Democrats' war and
> economic policies - and are still afraid they won’t succeed (given
> Singapore and Helsinki). And so they reassert the Russia-gate smear - as
> Durbin and senior ‘liberal’ Democrats did this week, as they called for the
> the suppression of Wikileaks and Julian Assange.
>
> Their sheepdogs - Sanders, Ocasio - are counsels of despair, or worse:
> attempts to gain votes for Democrats by advertising policies that the party
> will never institute. (“Well, we tried, but unfortunately…)
>
> But soi-disant progressives and Democrat front groups are working hard to
> mislead the public on what the party is actually doing. They know that if
> the public knew what the military and economic goals of the Democrat party
> were, they’d reject them.—CGE
>
>
> On Jul 1, 2018, at 5:24 PM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
> Well, somehow he got himself elected to Congress, which is more than any
> of us can say about ourselves.
>
> Not only that, he defeated a Democratic incumbent in a primary.
>
> That doesn't seem like a bad start.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 3:08 PM, David Green via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
>> At the risk of being irreverent, I don't know much about Khanna other
>> than the recent interviews on TRNN; but I hope he can develop some charisma
>> and personality, which might be necessary to effectively put forth a
>> dissident agenda, if that in fact is what he wants to do.
>>
>> DG
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 1:48 PM Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <
>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>
>>> There are institutions to hold them to account on some of their domestic
>>> economic policy stances. There's the AFL-CIO, for example. If you look at
>>> the last House vote on raising the minimum wage, every Democrat voted for
>>> it. If you look at the House vote on fast track trade negotiating authority
>>> for the TPP, almost every House Democrat voted against it, even though that
>>> was a vote against Obama, even though they hadn't finished negotiating the
>>> deal yet and the text was not public. But everyone could see where it was
>>> going. Most House Democrats listen to the AFL-CIO on domestic economic
>>> policy, including on trade policy, even against a Democratic President.
>>>
>>> Bill Clinton broke free of the AFL-CIO on trade at the presidential
>>> level. And since then, up until the present, there hasn't been a Democratic
>>> presidential nominee who didn't accept the Bill Clinton framework on trade.
>>> This is a key reason that Trump got elected. A bunch of working class
>>> Democrats in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania didn't trust Hillary on
>>> trade so they voted for Trump to kill the TPP dead. I can't say I blame
>>> them for not trusting Hillary on trade. The AFL-CIO claimed after the
>>> election that they had the votes in the House to kill the TPP in the lame
>>> duck session after the election. I'm not sure that I believe that. It's not
>>> what the AFL-CIO was saying before the election. I'm pretty sure that was a
>>> lie to cover up the AFL-CIO's role in the debacle. The AFL-CIO could have
>>> killed the TPP at the Democratic Convention. The Sanders forces had an
>>> amendment to the platform against the TPP, which amendment was supported by
>>> the Hillary labor delegates. But Obama threatened the pro-Hillary labor
>>> delegates, saying: if you amend the platform to oppose the TPP, I won't
>>> campaign for Hillary. The pro-Hillary labor leaders blinked. And this left
>>> a lot of people with the impression that if Hillary was elected, Obama was
>>> going to push the TPP through in the lame duck and enough Democrats would
>>> go along to make it happen.
>>>
>>> But regardless of all that, regardless of the problems with the AFL-CIO,
>>> etc., we have nothing like the AFL-CIO on foreign policy, war and peace,
>>> nothing close, nothing in the same league, nothing organized at all. Just a
>>> collection of NGOs like Win Without War which are accountable to no-one
>>> except their funders and which are very close to the House Democratic
>>> leadership, especially Nancy Pelosi. And that's why we haven't been able to
>>> get a vote in the House so far on getting the U.S. out of the
>>> unconstitutional Saudi war in Yemen. That's why I'm trying to get Ro Khanna
>>> to challenge Nancy Pelosi for the House Democratic leadership. So we can
>>> get votes in the House on war and peace.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Robert Naiman
>>> Policy Director
>>> Just Foreign Policy
>>> www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>> (202) 448-2898 x1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 12:51 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> > On Jul 1, 2018, at 12:40 PM, bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss <
>>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Carl, Your point is fantastic that there are no institutions to hold
>>>> so-called progressives or so-called liberals to any of their foreign or
>>>> domestic policy stances once elected. My Tea Party point, as I am sure you
>>>> understand,  is that there are no institutions to hold so-called
>>>> conservatives to their party policies either, once elected. If there were,
>>>> we would have a balanced budget and a decreasing deficit. Facts being
>>>> facts,  America has only One Party, no matter what label or geographic
>>>> direction it gives itself to attempt to gaslight the gullible.
>>>> >
>>>> > That old saying, that a problem cannot be solved at the level of the
>>>> mindset that created the problem in the first place, must be true here. The
>>>> One Party that serves its education-prison- military-industrial corporate
>>>> owners is the REAL master player of Identity Politics: splitting un-AWARE
>>>> Americans first into Republicans & Democrats, and then into Libertarians,
>>>> Conservatives, Christians, Deplorables, Liberals, the Left, Anti-.fa,
>>>> millenniels, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
>>>> >
>>>> > Conservative, liberal, left and right, as you and Counterpunch have
>>>> demonstrated, no longer mean what the words meant in years past. Those few
>>>> Americans who may believe any of the baloney being served us under those
>>>> labels are beyond convincing or worth discussing at this point. They will
>>>> just have to be dragged along as the rest of us change history.  A sports
>>>> "us" vs. "them" mentality will bury all of us if the "us" and "them" remain
>>>> fake Democrats & Republicans, liberals or conservatives. The only "us" that
>>>> means anything are the 99% and the only "them" that means anything are the
>>>> 8, 000 people in the world with half the world's wealth. The 1500
>>>> billionaires . The alphabet agencies & the oil companies. I may not know
>>>> all the "thems" - I sure know the "us".
>>>> >
>>>> > I had stopped watching "Real Time with Bill Maher" because he was
>>>> such a staunch Hillary supporter. However, if you had a chance to catch his
>>>> show last Friday, 6/29/18, it was interesting. Guest  Lawrence Wilkerson,
>>>> debunking Russiagate, and Bill and Michael Moore begging Americans to get
>>>> out in the streets against fascism. Michael Moore was nearly crying. There
>>>> was such a sense of urgency and that things have gone too far.
>>>> >
>>>> > Needless to say- not a Happy 4th .
>>>> > Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>>>> >
>>>> > ------ Original message------
>>>> > From: Carl G. Estabrook
>>>> > Date: Sun, Jul 1, 2018 12:54 AM
>>>> > To: bjornsona at ameritech.net;
>>>> > Cc: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss;Karen Aram;Robert
>>>> Naiman;peace-discuss at anti-war.net;
>>>> > Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays
>>>> News from Neptune
>>>> >
>>>> > https://www.blackagendareport.com/magical-thinking-vs-sober-
>>>> analysis-ocasio-cortez-victory-ny
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > "In my previous piece and Facebook posts I never touched on how
>>>> socialist Ocasio-Cortez is or isn't nor on her foreign policy stands if she
>>>> has any, which Berniecrats frequently don't, something that ought to make
>>>> us a little uneasy. Bernie Sanders calls himself a socialist too, just with
>>>> an imperialist foreign policy. I did say that progressive candidates and
>>>> officeholders do sometimes flip, a little at a time or all at once, and
>>>> when they do we have no institutions with which to punish them. "Feet to
>>>> the fire" and "holding them accountable" are actually the phrases of
>>>> magical thinkers because no means have yet been devised which enable the
>>>> left to do those things.
>>>> >
>>>> > "I got in trouble for observing that while we can elect progressives
>>>> from time to time we cannot compel them to remain that way. Until we figure
>>>> out how to build institutions that can, we are at the mercy of their
>>>> individual moral and political compasses. The need to develop left
>>>> institutions to which progressive candidates can be held responsible is an
>>>> acute one, which the Nation in its slavish devotion to the Democratic party
>>>> predictably ignores. Noting this truth got me accused of being a petty,
>>>> lazy purist and ultraleftist. Oh well. Sober analysis may not be what some
>>>> people wanna hear at a victory party where everybody’s popping champagne
>>>> corks, dancing the electric slide and toasting the universal lessons of the
>>>> Ocasio-Cortez victory without the bother of real analysis…"
>>>> >
>>>> > —CGE
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > > On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:04 PM, bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss
>>>> >  wrote:
>>>> > >
>>>> > > That Everyman article could be written exactly the same way 10
>>>> years ago to Tea Party Republicans.  Change "Democrat- change it to R
>>>> Republican.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>>>> > >
>>>> > > ------ Original message------
>>>> > > From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss
>>>> > > Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2018 6:11 PM
>>>> > > To: Karen Aram;
>>>> > > Cc: Robert Naiman
>>>> > ;peace-discuss at anti-war.net
>>>> > ;Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss;
>>>> > > Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays
>>>> News from Neptune
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > https://americaneveryman.com/2018/06/30/ajamu-baraka-pushes-
>>>> dementer-with-the-ocasio-cortez-placebo-my-position-
>>>> statement-on-ocasio-cortez/
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > It’s unclear where Ocasio is herself - but not the Democratic party.
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >> On Jun 30, 2018, at 5:43 PM, Karen Aram
>>>> >  wrote:
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Very good, thank you Stuart. Let’s all keep our fingers crossed
>>>> that she is able to stand by her declarations. Anything David Swanson has
>>>> to say is good enough for me.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>> On Jun 30, 2018, at 10:38, stuartnlevy
>>>> >  wrote:
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> It is there right now.
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> The
>>>> > antiwar.com
>>>> >  thread quotes Ocasio on June 27th that it hadn't been deliberately
>>>> removed, and she was looking into it.  So she did, and the statement is
>>>> there.
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> I haven't compared it with the previous version, but David
>>>> Swanson says it is both lengthened and improved.  He supports it and urges
>>>> his readers to let her know they do too.
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>>  -- Stuart
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> -------- Original message --------
>>>> > >>> From: "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss"
>>>> >
>>>> > >>> Date: 6/30/18 11:15 (GMT-06:00)
>>>> > >>> To: Robert Naiman
>>>> > , peace-discuss at anti-war.net
>>>> >
>>>> > >>> Cc: peace
>>>> > , "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" , Karen Aram
>>>> >
>>>> > >>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on
>>>> yesterdays News from Neptune
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> This is the piece removed from her website, wasn’t it? Has it
>>>> been put back?
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>>> On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:30 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss
>>>> >  wrote:
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > https://ocasio2018.com/issues
>>>> >
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> [...]
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> A Peace Economy
>>>> > >>>> Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States has
>>>> entangled itself in war and occupation throughout the Middle East and North
>>>> Africa. As of 2018, we are currently involved in military action in Libya,
>>>> Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia. Hundreds of
>>>> thousands of civilians in these countries have been killed either as
>>>> collateral damage from American strikes or from the instability caused by
>>>> U.S. interventions. Millions more have fled their broken countries,
>>>> contributing to the global refugee crisis.
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> This continued action damages America’s legitimacy as a force
>>>> for good, creates new generations of potential terrorists, and erodes
>>>> American prosperity. In times when we’re told that there’s not enough
>>>> money, Republicans and corporate Democrats seem to find the cash to fund a
>>>> $1.1 trillion fighter jet program or a $1.7 trillion-dollar nuclear weapon
>>>> “modernization” program. The costs are extreme: the Pentagon’s budget for
>>>> 2018 is $700 billion dollars: to continue fighting an endless War on Terror
>>>> and refighting the Cold War with a new arms race that nobody can win.
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> According to the Constitution, the right to declare war belongs
>>>> to the legislative body, and yet many of these global acts of aggression
>>>> have never once been voted on by Congress. In some cases, we've even acted
>>>> unilaterally, without the backing of the United Nations.
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> America should not be in the business of destabilizing
>>>> countries. While we may see ourselves as liberators, the world increasingly
>>>> views us as occupiers and aggressors. Alexandria believes that we must end
>>>> the "forever war" by bringing our troops home, and ending the air strikes
>>>> that perpetuate the cycle of terrorism throughout the world.
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> By bringing our troops home, we can begin to heal the wounds
>>>> we're opening by continuing military engagement. We can begin to repair our
>>>> image. We can reunite military families, separated by repeated deployments.
>>>> We can become stronger by building stronger diplomatic and economic ties,
>>>> and by saving our armed forces only for when they're truly needed.
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> [...]
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> Robert Naiman
>>>> > >>>> Policy Director
>>>> > >>>> Just Foreign Policy
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>>> >
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> >  naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>>> >
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > (202) 448-2898
>>>> >  x1
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss
>>>> >  wrote:
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2018/06/28/as-election-day-appr
>>>> oached-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-removed-antiwar-foreign-
>>>> policy-section-from-her-we
>>>> >
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> >
>>>> > >>>>
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>>>> >
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> >
>>>> > >>>>
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>>>> >
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >
>>>> > > _______________________________________________
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>>>> >
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>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
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