[Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune

Mon Jul 2 15:32:41 UTC 2018

"The latter need the distinctions to corral dissident democrats"

Corral dissident democrats into doing what, as opposed to doing what?

Ocasio-Cortez just ousted Crowley, the number four Democrat in the House.

The probability that the Green Party could have accomplished that if
Ocasio-Cortez hadn't primaried Crowley is practically indistinct from zero.

The Hillary/Pelosi forces have tanks and airplanes.

The Sanders/Ocasio-Cortez forces have rifles and shotguns.

You have a squirt gun. That's the fundamental problem. Your "purity" is
impotent.

Robert Naiman
Policy Director
Just Foreign Policy
www.justforeignpolicy.org
naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
(202) 448-2898 x1

On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

> Who’s erasing distinctions between Sanders-Ocasio and Hillary-Pelosi?
>
> The latter need the distinctions to corral dissident democrats, while the
> party’s real commitments remain what they have been.
>
> As Bruce Dixon notes, "Bernie Sanders calls himself a socialist too, just
> with an imperialist foreign policy.”
>
> —CGE
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2018, at 9:39 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
> "Their sheepdogs - Sanders, Ocasio - are counsels of despair"
>
> Sanders ran against Hillary and came very close to bringing her down.
>
> Ocasio just toppled the number four Democrat in the House. During the
> campaign, she refused to support Pelosi as Democratic Leader. After she
> won, she had a public fight with Pelosi.
>
> There is, absolutely, tremendous corruption at the top of the Democratic
> Party, if by "corruption" we mean not only "taking from the till" but also
> "doing the opposite of what the people who elected you would want, because
> that's what your rich friends want" when it comes to corporate power and
> militarism.
>
> But erasing distinctions between Sanders-Ocasio and Hillary-Pelosi isn't
> going to make that any better. On the contrary, to the extent that such
> erasing of distinctions is successful, it will slow down the process of
> holding Hillary-Pelosi Democrats to account.
>
>
>
>
> Robert Naiman
> Policy Director
> Just Foreign Policy
> www.justforeignpolicy.org
> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
> (202) 448-2898 x1
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 9:20 AM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
>> The Clinton administration’s NAFTA is a main source of the disruption of
>> Mexican agriculture that sends immigrants north.  It’s clear whom both
>> Clintons and Obama were working for "at the presidential level.” Trump’s
>> opposition to them gained him votes.
>>
>> And “a bunch of working class Democrats in Wisconsin, Michigan, and
>> Pennsylvania didn't trust Hillary" or Obama also on war - their kids were
>> unable to find jobs, entered the military, and killed and died in
>> Obama-Clinton’s hidden wars: <https://www.zerohedge.com/new
>> s/2017-07-11/new-study-suggests-war-lust-may-have-cost-
>> hillary-clinton-election>.
>>
>> Trump’s attacks on Obama-Clinton’s neoconservative and neoliberal
>> policies - he was the first candidate since the rise of corporate globalism
>> in the Carter administration to do that - made him president. The US
>> political establishment has worked hard to make him conform to the
>> Democrats' war and economic policies - and are still afraid they won’t
>> succeed (given Singapore and Helsinki). And so they reassert the
>> Russia-gate smear - as Durbin and senior ‘liberal’ Democrats did this week,
>> as they called for the the suppression of Wikileaks and Julian Assange.
>>
>> Their sheepdogs - Sanders, Ocasio - are counsels of despair, or worse:
>> attempts to gain votes for Democrats by advertising policies that the party
>> will never institute. (“Well, we tried, but unfortunately…)
>>
>> But soi-disant progressives and Democrat front groups are working hard to
>> mislead the public on what the party is actually doing. They know that if
>> the public knew what the military and economic goals of the Democrat party
>> were, they’d reject them.—CGE
>>
>>
>> On Jul 1, 2018, at 5:24 PM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <
>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>
>> Well, somehow he got himself elected to Congress, which is more than any
>> of us can say about ourselves.
>>
>> Not only that, he defeated a Democratic incumbent in a primary.
>>
>> That doesn't seem like a bad start.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 3:08 PM, David Green via Peace-discuss <
>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>
>>> At the risk of being irreverent, I don't know much about Khanna other
>>> than the recent interviews on TRNN; but I hope he can develop some charisma
>>> and personality, which might be necessary to effectively put forth a
>>> dissident agenda, if that in fact is what he wants to do.
>>>
>>> DG
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 1:48 PM Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <
>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There are institutions to hold them to account on some of their
>>>> domestic economic policy stances. There's the AFL-CIO, for example. If you
>>>> look at the last House vote on raising the minimum wage, every Democrat
>>>> voted for it. If you look at the House vote on fast track trade negotiating
>>>> authority for the TPP, almost every House Democrat voted against it, even
>>>> though that was a vote against Obama, even though they hadn't finished
>>>> negotiating the deal yet and the text was not public. But everyone could
>>>> see where it was going. Most House Democrats listen to the AFL-CIO on
>>>> domestic economic policy, including on trade policy, even against a
>>>> Democratic President.
>>>>
>>>> Bill Clinton broke free of the AFL-CIO on trade at the presidential
>>>> level. And since then, up until the present, there hasn't been a Democratic
>>>> presidential nominee who didn't accept the Bill Clinton framework on trade.
>>>> This is a key reason that Trump got elected. A bunch of working class
>>>> Democrats in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania didn't trust Hillary on
>>>> trade so they voted for Trump to kill the TPP dead. I can't say I blame
>>>> them for not trusting Hillary on trade. The AFL-CIO claimed after the
>>>> election that they had the votes in the House to kill the TPP in the lame
>>>> duck session after the election. I'm not sure that I believe that. It's not
>>>> what the AFL-CIO was saying before the election. I'm pretty sure that was a
>>>> lie to cover up the AFL-CIO's role in the debacle. The AFL-CIO could have
>>>> killed the TPP at the Democratic Convention. The Sanders forces had an
>>>> amendment to the platform against the TPP, which amendment was supported by
>>>> the Hillary labor delegates. But Obama threatened the pro-Hillary labor
>>>> delegates, saying: if you amend the platform to oppose the TPP, I won't
>>>> campaign for Hillary. The pro-Hillary labor leaders blinked. And this left
>>>> a lot of people with the impression that if Hillary was elected, Obama was
>>>> going to push the TPP through in the lame duck and enough Democrats would
>>>> go along to make it happen.
>>>>
>>>> But regardless of all that, regardless of the problems with the
>>>> AFL-CIO, etc., we have nothing like the AFL-CIO on foreign policy, war and
>>>> peace, nothing close, nothing in the same league, nothing organized at all.
>>>> Just a collection of NGOs like Win Without War which are accountable to
>>>> no-one except their funders and which are very close to the House
>>>> Democratic leadership, especially Nancy Pelosi. And that's why we haven't
>>>> been able to get a vote in the House so far on getting the U.S. out of the
>>>> unconstitutional Saudi war in Yemen. That's why I'm trying to get Ro Khanna
>>>> to challenge Nancy Pelosi for the House Democratic leadership. So we can
>>>> get votes in the House on war and peace.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Robert Naiman
>>>> Policy Director
>>>> Just Foreign Policy
>>>> www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>>> (202) 448-2898 x1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 12:51 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
>>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > On Jul 1, 2018, at 12:40 PM, bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss <
>>>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Carl, Your point is fantastic that there are no institutions to hold
>>>>> so-called progressives or so-called liberals to any of their foreign or
>>>>> domestic policy stances once elected. My Tea Party point, as I am sure you
>>>>> understand,  is that there are no institutions to hold so-called
>>>>> conservatives to their party policies either, once elected. If there were,
>>>>> we would have a balanced budget and a decreasing deficit. Facts being
>>>>> facts,  America has only One Party, no matter what label or geographic
>>>>> direction it gives itself to attempt to gaslight the gullible.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > That old saying, that a problem cannot be solved at the level of the
>>>>> mindset that created the problem in the first place, must be true here. The
>>>>> One Party that serves its education-prison- military-industrial corporate
>>>>> owners is the REAL master player of Identity Politics: splitting un-AWARE
>>>>> Americans first into Republicans & Democrats, and then into Libertarians,
>>>>> Conservatives, Christians, Deplorables, Liberals, the Left, Anti-.fa,
>>>>> millenniels, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Conservative, liberal, left and right, as you and Counterpunch have
>>>>> demonstrated, no longer mean what the words meant in years past. Those few
>>>>> Americans who may believe any of the baloney being served us under those
>>>>> labels are beyond convincing or worth discussing at this point. They will
>>>>> just have to be dragged along as the rest of us change history.  A sports
>>>>> "us" vs. "them" mentality will bury all of us if the "us" and "them" remain
>>>>> fake Democrats & Republicans, liberals or conservatives. The only "us" that
>>>>> means anything are the 99% and the only "them" that means anything are the
>>>>> 8, 000 people in the world with half the world's wealth. The 1500
>>>>> billionaires . The alphabet agencies & the oil companies. I may not know
>>>>> all the "thems" - I sure know the "us".
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I had stopped watching "Real Time with Bill Maher" because he was
>>>>> such a staunch Hillary supporter. However, if you had a chance to catch his
>>>>> show last Friday, 6/29/18, it was interesting. Guest  Lawrence Wilkerson,
>>>>> debunking Russiagate, and Bill and Michael Moore begging Americans to get
>>>>> out in the streets against fascism. Michael Moore was nearly crying. There
>>>>> was such a sense of urgency and that things have gone too far.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Needless to say- not a Happy 4th .
>>>>> > Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ------ Original message------
>>>>> > From: Carl G. Estabrook
>>>>> > Date: Sun, Jul 1, 2018 12:54 AM
>>>>> > To: bjornsona at ameritech.net;
>>>>> > Cc: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss;Karen Aram;Robert
>>>>> Naiman;peace-discuss at anti-war.net;
>>>>> > Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays
>>>>> News from Neptune
>>>>> >
>>>>> > https://www.blackagendareport.com/magical-thinking-vs-sober-
>>>>> analysis-ocasio-cortez-victory-ny
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > "In my previous piece and Facebook posts I never touched on how
>>>>> socialist Ocasio-Cortez is or isn't nor on her foreign policy stands if she
>>>>> has any, which Berniecrats frequently don't, something that ought to make
>>>>> us a little uneasy. Bernie Sanders calls himself a socialist too, just with
>>>>> an imperialist foreign policy. I did say that progressive candidates and
>>>>> officeholders do sometimes flip, a little at a time or all at once, and
>>>>> when they do we have no institutions with which to punish them. "Feet to
>>>>> the fire" and "holding them accountable" are actually the phrases of
>>>>> magical thinkers because no means have yet been devised which enable the
>>>>> left to do those things.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > "I got in trouble for observing that while we can elect progressives
>>>>> from time to time we cannot compel them to remain that way. Until we figure
>>>>> out how to build institutions that can, we are at the mercy of their
>>>>> individual moral and political compasses. The need to develop left
>>>>> institutions to which progressive candidates can be held responsible is an
>>>>> acute one, which the Nation in its slavish devotion to the Democratic party
>>>>> predictably ignores. Noting this truth got me accused of being a petty,
>>>>> lazy purist and ultraleftist. Oh well. Sober analysis may not be what some
>>>>> people wanna hear at a victory party where everybody’s popping champagne
>>>>> corks, dancing the electric slide and toasting the universal lessons of the
>>>>> Ocasio-Cortez victory without the bother of real analysis…"
>>>>> >
>>>>> > —CGE
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > > On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:04 PM, bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss
>>>>> >  wrote:
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > That Everyman article could be written exactly the same way 10
>>>>> years ago to Tea Party Republicans.  Change "Democrat- change it to R
>>>>> Republican.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > ------ Original message------
>>>>> > > From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss
>>>>> > > Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2018 6:11 PM
>>>>> > > To: Karen Aram;
>>>>> > > Cc: Robert Naiman
>>>>> > ;peace-discuss at anti-war.net
>>>>> > ;Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss;
>>>>> > > Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays
>>>>> News from Neptune
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > https://americaneveryman.com/2018/06/30/ajamu-baraka-pushes-
>>>>> dementer-with-the-ocasio-cortez-placebo-my-position-statemen
>>>>> t-on-ocasio-cortez/
>>>>> >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > It’s unclear where Ocasio is herself - but not the Democratic
>>>>> party.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >> On Jun 30, 2018, at 5:43 PM, Karen Aram
>>>>> >  wrote:
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> Very good, thank you Stuart. Let’s all keep our fingers crossed
>>>>> that she is able to stand by her declarations. Anything David Swanson has
>>>>> to say is good enough for me.
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >>> On Jun 30, 2018, at 10:38, stuartnlevy
>>>>> >  wrote:
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> It is there right now.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> The
>>>>> > antiwar.com
>>>>> >  thread quotes Ocasio on June 27th that it hadn't been deliberately
>>>>> removed, and she was looking into it.  So she did, and the statement is
>>>>> there.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> I haven't compared it with the previous version, but David
>>>>> Swanson says it is both lengthened and improved.  He supports it and urges
>>>>> his readers to let her know they do too.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>  -- Stuart
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> -------- Original message --------
>>>>> > >>> From: "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss"
>>>>> >
>>>>> > >>> Date: 6/30/18 11:15 (GMT-06:00)
>>>>> > >>> To: Robert Naiman
>>>>> > , peace-discuss at anti-war.net
>>>>> >
>>>>> > >>> Cc: peace
>>>>> > , "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" , Karen Aram
>>>>> >
>>>>> > >>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on
>>>>> yesterdays News from Neptune
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> This is the piece removed from her website, wasn’t it? Has it
>>>>> been put back?
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>> On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:30 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss
>>>>> >  wrote:
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > https://ocasio2018.com/issues
>>>>> >
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>> [...]
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>> A Peace Economy
>>>>> > >>>> Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States has
>>>>> entangled itself in war and occupation throughout the Middle East and North
>>>>> Africa. As of 2018, we are currently involved in military action in Libya,
>>>>> Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia. Hundreds of
>>>>> thousands of civilians in these countries have been killed either as
>>>>> collateral damage from American strikes or from the instability caused by
>>>>> U.S. interventions. Millions more have fled their broken countries,
>>>>> contributing to the global refugee crisis.
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>> This continued action damages America’s legitimacy as a force
>>>>> for good, creates new generations of potential terrorists, and erodes
>>>>> American prosperity. In times when we’re told that there’s not enough
>>>>> money, Republicans and corporate Democrats seem to find the cash to fund a
>>>>> $1.1 trillion fighter jet program or a $1.7 trillion-dollar nuclear weapon
>>>>> “modernization” program. The costs are extreme: the Pentagon’s budget for
>>>>> 2018 is $700 billion dollars: to continue fighting an endless War on Terror
>>>>> and refighting the Cold War with a new arms race that nobody can win.
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>> According to the Constitution, the right to declare war belongs
>>>>> to the legislative body, and yet many of these global acts of aggression
>>>>> have never once been voted on by Congress. In some cases, we've even acted
>>>>> unilaterally, without the backing of the United Nations.
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>> America should not be in the business of destabilizing
>>>>> countries. While we may see ourselves as liberators, the world increasingly
>>>>> views us as occupiers and aggressors. Alexandria believes that we must end
>>>>> the "forever war" by bringing our troops home, and ending the air strikes
>>>>> that perpetuate the cycle of terrorism throughout the world.
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>> By bringing our troops home, we can begin to heal the wounds
>>>>> we're opening by continuing military engagement. We can begin to repair our
>>>>> image. We can reunite military families, separated by repeated deployments.
>>>>> We can become stronger by building stronger diplomatic and economic ties,
>>>>> and by saving our armed forces only for when they're truly needed.
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>> [...]
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>> Robert Naiman
>>>>> > >>>> Policy Director
>>>>> > >>>> Just Foreign Policy
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> >  naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > (202) 448-2898
>>>>> >  x1
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>> On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss
>>>>> >  wrote:
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2018/06/28/as-election-day-appr
>>>>> oached-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-removed-antiwar-foreign-poli
>>>>> cy-section-from-her-we
>>>>> >
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> > >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> >  Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>>> >
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>>> >
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> > >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> >  Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>>> >
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>>> >
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > > Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>>> > >
>>>>> >  Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>>> >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>>>
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