[Peace-discuss] [Peace] "...thinking makes it so"

[John W.]

If this was on Facebook I would "Like" it, Karen.  Absolutely right.

John Wason



On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 9:53 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <
peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

Anti-fa does support violence, in that its “planned fight back” its
> “planned defensive attacks,” as if military or police. It creates chaos,
> and chaos leads to violence and disintegration of the left, thus with chaos
> the government, and ruling elite wins.  There are historical examples
> proving this.
>
>  One does not have to be a pacifist, one does not need to oppose
> uprisings, but chaos, leads to violence and disintegration of the left.
>
> No movement/revolution using violence has ever succeeded. MLK knew this,
> perhaps he couldn’t have accomplished what he did without the threat of
> Malcolm X, but Malcolm would never have been able to accomplish what MLK
> did.
>
> Only civil resistance succeeds.
>
>
> On Jul 4, 2018, at 06:53, Harry Mickalide via Peace <
> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
> It's not that Antifa doesn't expect punishment. It's that they *risk *punishment
> in order to defend us and fight fascism.
>
> In fact, if we're going to compare the difference between thought and
> action, we here on the Internet are *thinking* about creating a just
> world, while people in Antifa are in the streets actually *doing *it.
>
> Here is an article where multiple people thank Antifa for defending them
> from Nazis.
> http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/
> 2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 11:06 PM, David Green via Peace <
> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure of the precise origin of the notion of "hate crimes" in the
>> law in our own country, if there is such an origin; but my sense--perhaps
>> more directly applicable to European and Canadian laws that directly
>> monitor speech--has long been that what Norman Finkelstein has called the
>> "Holocaust Industry" contributed to the development of such a notion, by
>> equating the actuality of the Holocaust, anti-semitic beliefs, and
>> criticism of Israel's very real crimes.
>>
>> DG
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 9:47 PM C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It might mean
>>> (a) opinion constitutes moral worth - "it’s good/evil if you think it
>>> is”; or
>>> (b) opinion misinterprets moral worth - "it’s good, but you mistakenly
>>> think it evil.”
>>>
>>> HAMLET, 2.2=================================================
>>> • Hamlet. ... What news ?
>>> • Rosencrantz. None, my lord, but that the world's grown honest.
>>> • Hamlet. Then is doomsday near! But your news is not true. Let me
>>> question more in particular. What have you, my good friends,
>>> deserved at the hands of Fortune that she sends you to prison
>>> hither?
>>> • Guildenstern. Prison, my lord?
>>> • Hamlet. Denmark's a prison.
>>> • Rosencrantz. Then is the world one.
>>> • Hamlet. A goodly one; in which there are many confines, wards, and
>>> dungeons, Denmark being one o' th' worst.
>>> • Rosencrantz. We think not so, my lord.
>>> • Hamlet. Why, then 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good
>>> or bad but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison.
>>> • Rosencrantz. Why, then your ambition makes it one. 'Tis too narrow for
>>> your
>>> mind.
>>> • Hamlet. O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a
>>> king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams.
>>> • Guildenstern. Which dreams indeed are ambition; for the very substance
>>> of
>>> the ambitious is merely the shadow of a dream.
>>> • Hamlet. A dream itself is but a shadow.
>>> • Rosencrantz. Truly, and I hold ambition of so airy and light a quality
>>> that
>>> it is but a shadow's shadow.
>>> • Hamlet. Then are our beggars bodies, and our monarchs and outstretch'd
>>> heroes the beggars' shadows. Shall we to th' court? for, by my
>>> fay, I cannot reason.
>>> =========================================================
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 3, 2018, at 9:08 PM, David Green via Peace <
>>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> How is the line from Hamlet misunderstood?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 6:57 PM C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> One of the most misunderstood lines in Shakespeare is Hamlet’s
>>>> “...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
>>>>
>>>> Here a FOA (Friend of AWARE) brilliantly applies it to current US
>>>> politics (h/t K. Aram):
>>>>
>>>> "Today I had two discussions, one with people advocating hate crime
>>>> laws, and another with people defending Antifa, and it occurred to me that
>>>> they were pretty much the same people.
>>>>
>>>> "Hate crime laws are actually thought crime laws, in that they take
>>>> what is already a crime, and add years to the sentence if the perp was
>>>> thinking bad thoughts when they committed the crime.
>>>>
>>>> "Antifas are people who commit crimes, and expect to go unpunished at
>>>> all, because they were thinking good thoughts when they committed the crime.
>>>>
>>>> "This is magical thinking, the idea that thoughts are more important
>>>> than reality. This is very American, since we have had multiple Think
>>>> Yourself Rich fads, from Napoleon Hill to Oprah. And we are earnestly told
>>>> that having a president who 'believes' in climate change is more important
>>>> than actual policy changes. And, of course, the latest fad in which you can
>>>> think yourself right into the opposite sex. (And not in the old 'think
>>>> yourself irresistible' way.)
>>>>
>>>> "I think I'll just be over here, in the corner, visualizing peace.”
>>>> --Paula Densnow
>>>
>>>
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