[Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal

Fri Jul 13 02:36:04 UTC 2018

Only if he's consistent.

________________________________________
From: Peace-discuss [peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] on behalf of e. wayne johnson via Peace-discuss [peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 8:17 PM
To: Robert Naiman; C G Estabrook
Cc: Peace-discuss List
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss]    debate in Iran about prospects of anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal

Bob, you are awash with quotables these days -
>  "The point is to save the lives of innocent human beings. Peace people
>  are supposed to care about that."

(Bob waxes pro-life.)

>  -------Original Message-------
>  From: Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>  To: C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
>  Cc: Peace-discuss List <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>  Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal
>  Sent: Jul 13 '18 07:31
>
>  The point of the enterprise isn't to make anyone like the United
>  States. More people can hate the United States, it's no skin off my
>  nose.
>
>  The point is to save the lives of innocent human beings. Peace people
>  are supposed to care about that.
>
>  Robert Naiman
>  Policy Director
>  Just Foreign Policy
>  www.justforeignpolicy.org
>  naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>
>  (202) 448-2898 x1
>
>  On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 5:47 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss
>  <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
>  > I’lll believe it when I see it - or when the USG reverses its
>  > war-making and -mongering.
>  >
>  > Anything up to that is posturing and propaganda. “The US seeks
>  > peace, but, unfortunately…"
>  >
>  > On Jul 12, 2018, at 4:42 PM, Robert Naiman
>  > <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org> wrote:
>  >
>  > Soon I expect an initiative from the Congressional Progressive
>  > Caucus to try to end the Saudi war in Yemen, invoking the War Powers
>  > Resolution to try to force a House floor vote on the
>  > unconstitutional and unauthorized war.
>  >
>  > Then the key question will be: whether the House leadership can be
>  > forced to allow a vote.
>  >
>  > The battle will be Democrat against Democrat, and Republican against
>  > Republican. It will be Progressive Caucus and Liberty Caucus against
>  > the House Republican leadership and whichever Democrats collaborate
>  > with the House Republican leadership.
>  >
>  > Here's a foreshadow from Adam Smith:
>  >
>  > https://twitter.com/HASCDemocrats/status/1017477541031014401
>  >
>  > HOUSE ARMED SERVICES‏Verified account @HASCDemocrats
>  >
>  > FollowFollow @HASCDemocrats
>  >
>  > More
>  >
>  > . at RepAdamSmith: There is a terrible humanitarian crisis occurring. I
>  > am working with @RepRoKhanna on a bill to stop us from blindly
>  > supporting Saudi Arabia’s actions in #Yemen.
>  >
>  > 1:35 PM - 12 Jul 2018
>  >
>  > You can encourage support of this effort here:
>  >
>  > 34 Reps. Threatened War Powers to Stop Hodeida Assault. Press Them
>  > to Follow Through
>  >
>  >
>  https://www.change.org/p/34-reps-threatened-war-powers-to-stop-hodeida-assault-press-them-to-follow-through
>  >
>  > Robert Naiman
>  > Policy Director
>  > Just Foreign Policy
>  > www.justforeignpolicy.org
>  > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>  >
>  > (202) 448-2898 x1
>  >
>  > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss
>  > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>  >
>  > When, in our lifetimes, have the USG - and the Democrat party - not
>  > wanted to commit a horrible crime?
>  >
>  > Identifying nice Democrats has not been a way to meliorate those
>  > crimes. It’s rather a mode of collaboration.
>  >
>  > On Jul 12, 2018, at 3:33 PM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss
>  > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>  >
>  > Are you kidding me? Of course not. Who claimed that it was?
>  >
>  > It's argument that if two groups of people are fighting, and one
>  > side wants to commit a horrible crime, and the other side doesn't,
>  > you should support the side that doesn't want to commit the horrible
>  > crime. You don't have to marry them. You just have to help them win,
>  > to the extent that you are able.
>  >
>  > Robert Naiman
>  > Policy Director
>  > Just Foreign Policy
>  > www.justforeignpolicy.org
>  > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>  >
>  > (202) 448-2898 x1
>  >
>  > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss
>  > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>  >
>  > Is that a reason to support Israel’s killing now?
>  >
>  > Sent from my iPhone
>  >
>  > On Jul 12, 2018, at 3:09 PM, Robert Naiman
>  > <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org> wrote:
>  >
>  > When I was in high school, I read an interview with a Russian Jew
>  > who had lived through the Russian Civil War. He was asked why so
>  > many Russian Jews had supported the Communists. He said: "There were
>  > two groups of people with guns. One group wanted to kill Jews. The
>  > other didn't. It wasn't hard to choose sides."
>  >
>  > Robert Naiman
>  > Policy Director
>  > Just Foreign Policy
>  > www.justforeignpolicy.org
>  > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>  >
>  > (202) 448-2898 x1
>  >
>  > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 3:49 PM, Estabrook, Carl G via Peace-discuss
>  > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>  >
>  > There were people in the American government that argued that
>  > attacking Iraq in 2003 was not the best way to control the Mideast.
>  > We could oppose the attack without supporting them or their vicious
>  > politics.
>  >
>  > -------------------------
>  >
>  > FROM: Peace-discuss [peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] on
>  > behalf of Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss
>  > [peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net]
>  > SENT: Thursday, July 12, 2018 2:32 PM
>  > TO: C G Estabrook
>  > CC: Peace-discuss List
>  > SUBJECT: Re: [Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of
>  > anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal
>  >
>  > You're now making the point that I was making from the beginning.
>  > Anybody who expects that Russia will take its interests as they
>  > perceive them into account less than other countries do is likely to
>  > be disappointed. Accepting this reality doesn't require being
>  > particularly cynical about the motivations of the Russian
>  > government. It just means accepting that the Russian government is
>  > like other governments.
>  >
>  > This doesn't mean that one has to accept a "vulgar Marxist" view
>  > that what governments will do is always reducible to or
>  > understandable by reference to crude self-interest. Competing
>  > factions articulate different arguments for national self-interest,
>  > and these arguments can have very different moral consequences, and
>  > some of the people supporting the arguments care about the moral
>  > consequences.
>  >
>  > So, for example, right now there are people in Washington who are
>  > arguing that continuing to support the Saudi-UAE assault on Yemen is
>  > not in the interest of the U.S., and the U.S. should instead
>  > pressure Saudi-UAE to stop the assault on Hodeida and agree to the
>  > UN peace deal. People who care about moral consequences want that
>  > argument to win, even if they themselves would be happy to see the
>  > U.S. empire crash and burn.
>  >
>  > Robert Naiman
>  > Policy Director
>  > Just Foreign Policy
>  > www.justforeignpolicy.org
>  > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>  >
>  > (202) 448-2898 x1
>  >
>  > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss
>  > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>  >
>  > Wouldn’t we be shocked if someone said, “Americans always lean
>  > toward the side that serves their interests”?
>  >
>  > In our case the interests are those of dominant social groups in
>  > this country - and in an age of neoliberalism, run counter to those
>  > of the majority, here and abroad.
>  >
>  > On Jul 12, 2018, at 10:52 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss
>  > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>  >
>  > "Russians always lean toward the side that serves their
>  > interests.”
>  >
>  > _______________________________________________
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>  > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
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