[Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal

Robert Naiman naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
Fri Jul 13 15:32:46 UTC 2018 

I'm happy to agree a cease-fire with you on this front. If you stop
attacking "Democrats," I'll stop attacking "Greens."

Do we have a deal?





Robert Naiman
Policy Director
Just Foreign Policy
www.justforeignpolicy.org
naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
(202) 448-2898 x1




On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 11:28 AM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

> Maybe we should concentrate on the people we’re killing - at home and
> abroad - rather than the politicians you want to get into office. We should
> rescue the former, not the latter.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 13, 2018, at 9:55 AM, Robert Naiman <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
> wrote:
>
> "The reversal of Roe v. Wade might lead us to do what we should for
> pregnant people - universal health care, child allowances, free education,
> housing, a universal basic income."
>
> It might do that. It might also cause pigs to fly.
>
> This is like saying that we should ban Salvadorans and Guatemalans from
> fleeing to the U.S. so they will go back home and foment revolutions that
> will remove the conditions that are causing them to flee. It's a brutal
> logic, that if applied is certain to increase brutality in the short run,
> with a very dim prospect of leading to less brutality in the long run. Much
> more likely, such logic will merely serve as a fig leaf for increased
> brutality.
>
> So far, increased restrictions on abortion in Republican states have not
> led to such things. And that's what we're talking about. Abortion will
> never be illegal in New York or California. The overturn of Roe v.
> Wade might well lead to criminalizing abortion in the most reactionary
> states, the states least likely to enact "universal health care, child
> allowances, free education, housing, a universal basic income."
>
> But at least we're having an honest conversation now. This is why you want
> Republican rule. You want to overturn Roe v. Wade and criminalize abortion.
> It's your democratic right to want these things. But you should be honest
> about what your true motivations are, rather than trying to trick people
> into thinking that your motivation for supporting Republican rule has
> something to do with peace.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Robert Naiman
> Policy Director
> Just Foreign Policy
> www.justforeignpolicy.org
> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
> (202) 448-2898 x1
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 6:48 AM, Estabrook, Carl G via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
>> The reversal of Roe v. Wade might lead us to do what we should for
>> pregnant people - universal health care, child allowances, free education,
>> housing, a universal basic income. It would cost less than the military to
>> protect human lives rather than end them.
>>
>> Abortion obviously ends a human life. Many of us summarize our political
>> views as, “I'm basically against anything that ends human lives or destroys
>> the planet we live on.”
>>
>> Most of my friends who have had abortions - or seriously considered it -
>> did so for economic reasons - even privileged people. Those of us who have
>> children know that it is of course a disruption - even adoption.
>>
>> Social and economic disruptions should be overcome, if we’re against
>> things that end human lives, but we’re in the grip of a capitalist society
>> that exploits human lives for the profit of the few.
>>
>> Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg pointed out that Roe was
>> decided for economic and eugenic reasons: “Frankly,” she said in July 2009,
>> “I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about
>> population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don’t want
>> to have too many of.”
>>
>> Those of us who oppose war and exploitation that end human lives should
>> work against economic and social circumstances that convince people that
>> they must do so as well.  --CGE
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* naiman.uiuc at gmail.com [naiman.uiuc at gmail.com] on behalf of
>> Robert Naiman [naiman at justforeignpolicy.org]
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 13, 2018 3:10 AM
>> *To:* Estabrook, Carl G
>> *Cc:* ewj at pigs.ag; C G Estabrook; Peace-discuss List
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of
>> anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal
>>
>> I don't believe that "abortion is murder," the way you guys do. And I
>> don't think that abortion should be criminalized, the way that you guys
>> apparently do.
>>
>> But I'm not in favor of there being more abortions. I'd rather see better
>> availability of, awareness of, and use of contraception.
>>
>> Sweden has more liberal abortion laws than the U.S. and fewer abortions
>> per capita. They also have better sex education, better availability of,
>> awareness of, and use of contraception.
>>
>> Just because you are against criminalizing something, doesn't mean you
>> are in favor of there being more of the thing. Just because you are against
>> something, doesn't mean you have to support laws to criminalize it.
>>
>> I support decriminalizing the use of marijuana. That doesn't mean that I
>> favor greater use of marijuana. I don't. I have no problem with social
>> measures to discourage the use of marijuana per se. I am against
>> criminalization.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Robert Naiman
>> Policy Director
>> Just Foreign Policy
>> www.justforeignpolicy.org
>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>> (202) 448-2898 x1
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:36 PM, Estabrook, Carl G via Peace-discuss <
>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Only if he's consistent.
>>>
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: Peace-discuss [peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] on
>>> behalf of e. wayne johnson via Peace-discuss [
>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net]
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 8:17 PM
>>> To: Robert Naiman; C G Estabrook
>>> Cc: Peace-discuss List
>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss]    debate in Iran about prospects of
>>> anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal
>>>
>>> Bob, you are awash with quotables these days -
>>> >  "The point is to save the lives of innocent human beings. Peace people
>>> >  are supposed to care about that."
>>>
>>> (Bob waxes pro-life.)
>>>
>>> >  -------Original Message-------
>>> >  From: Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.
>>> net>
>>> >  To: C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
>>> >  Cc: Peace-discuss List <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>> >  Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of
>>> anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal
>>> >  Sent: Jul 13 '18 07:31
>>> >
>>> >  The point of the enterprise isn't to make anyone like the United
>>> >  States. More people can hate the United States, it's no skin off my
>>> >  nose.
>>> >
>>> >  The point is to save the lives of innocent human beings. Peace people
>>> >  are supposed to care about that.
>>> >
>>> >  Robert Naiman
>>> >  Policy Director
>>> >  Just Foreign Policy
>>> >  www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>> >  naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>> >
>>> >  (202) 448-2898 x1
>>> >
>>> >  On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 5:47 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss
>>> >  <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >  > I’lll believe it when I see it - or when the USG reverses its
>>> >  > war-making and -mongering.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > Anything up to that is posturing and propaganda. “The US seeks
>>> >  > peace, but, unfortunately…"
>>> >  >
>>> >  > On Jul 12, 2018, at 4:42 PM, Robert Naiman
>>> >  > <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org> wrote:
>>> >  >
>>> >  > Soon I expect an initiative from the Congressional Progressive
>>> >  > Caucus to try to end the Saudi war in Yemen, invoking the War Powers
>>> >  > Resolution to try to force a House floor vote on the
>>> >  > unconstitutional and unauthorized war.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > Then the key question will be: whether the House leadership can be
>>> >  > forced to allow a vote.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > The battle will be Democrat against Democrat, and Republican against
>>> >  > Republican. It will be Progressive Caucus and Liberty Caucus against
>>> >  > the House Republican leadership and whichever Democrats collaborate
>>> >  > with the House Republican leadership.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > Here's a foreshadow from Adam Smith:
>>> >  >
>>> >  > https://twitter.com/HASCDemocrats/status/1017477541031014401
>>> >  >
>>> >  > HOUSE ARMED SERVICES‏Verified account @HASCDemocrats
>>> >  >
>>> >  > FollowFollow @HASCDemocrats
>>> >  >
>>> >  > More
>>> >  >
>>> >  > . at RepAdamSmith: There is a terrible humanitarian crisis occurring. I
>>> >  > am working with @RepRoKhanna on a bill to stop us from blindly
>>> >  > supporting Saudi Arabia’s actions in #Yemen.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > 1:35 PM - 12 Jul 2018
>>> >  >
>>> >  > You can encourage support of this effort here:
>>> >  >
>>> >  > 34 Reps. Threatened War Powers to Stop Hodeida Assault. Press Them
>>> >  > to Follow Through
>>> >  >
>>> >  >
>>> >  https://www.change.org/p/34-reps-threatened-war-powers-to-st
>>> op-hodeida-assault-press-them-to-follow-through
>>> >  >
>>> >  > Robert Naiman
>>> >  > Policy Director
>>> >  > Just Foreign Policy
>>> >  > www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>> >  > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>> >  >
>>> >  > (202) 448-2898 x1
>>> >  >
>>> >  > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss
>>> >  > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>> >  >
>>> >  > When, in our lifetimes, have the USG - and the Democrat party - not
>>> >  > wanted to commit a horrible crime?
>>> >  >
>>> >  > Identifying nice Democrats has not been a way to meliorate those
>>> >  > crimes. It’s rather a mode of collaboration.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > On Jul 12, 2018, at 3:33 PM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss
>>> >  > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>> >  >
>>> >  > Are you kidding me? Of course not. Who claimed that it was?
>>> >  >
>>> >  > It's argument that if two groups of people are fighting, and one
>>> >  > side wants to commit a horrible crime, and the other side doesn't,
>>> >  > you should support the side that doesn't want to commit the horrible
>>> >  > crime. You don't have to marry them. You just have to help them win,
>>> >  > to the extent that you are able.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > Robert Naiman
>>> >  > Policy Director
>>> >  > Just Foreign Policy
>>> >  > www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>> >  > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>> >  >
>>> >  > (202) 448-2898 x1
>>> >  >
>>> >  > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss
>>> >  > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>> >  >
>>> >  > Is that a reason to support Israel’s killing now?
>>> >  >
>>> >  > Sent from my iPhone
>>> >  >
>>> >  > On Jul 12, 2018, at 3:09 PM, Robert Naiman
>>> >  > <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org> wrote:
>>> >  >
>>> >  > When I was in high school, I read an interview with a Russian Jew
>>> >  > who had lived through the Russian Civil War. He was asked why so
>>> >  > many Russian Jews had supported the Communists. He said: "There were
>>> >  > two groups of people with guns. One group wanted to kill Jews. The
>>> >  > other didn't. It wasn't hard to choose sides."
>>> >  >
>>> >  > Robert Naiman
>>> >  > Policy Director
>>> >  > Just Foreign Policy
>>> >  > www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>> >  > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>> >  >
>>> >  > (202) 448-2898 x1
>>> >  >
>>> >  > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 3:49 PM, Estabrook, Carl G via Peace-discuss
>>> >  > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>> >  >
>>> >  > There were people in the American government that argued that
>>> >  > attacking Iraq in 2003 was not the best way to control the Mideast.
>>> >  > We could oppose the attack without supporting them or their vicious
>>> >  > politics.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > -------------------------
>>> >  >
>>> >  > FROM: Peace-discuss [peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] on
>>> >  > behalf of Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss
>>> >  > [peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net]
>>> >  > SENT: Thursday, July 12, 2018 2:32 PM
>>> >  > TO: C G Estabrook
>>> >  > CC: Peace-discuss List
>>> >  > SUBJECT: Re: [Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of
>>> >  > anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal
>>> >  >
>>> >  > You're now making the point that I was making from the beginning.
>>> >  > Anybody who expects that Russia will take its interests as they
>>> >  > perceive them into account less than other countries do is likely to
>>> >  > be disappointed. Accepting this reality doesn't require being
>>> >  > particularly cynical about the motivations of the Russian
>>> >  > government. It just means accepting that the Russian government is
>>> >  > like other governments.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > This doesn't mean that one has to accept a "vulgar Marxist" view
>>> >  > that what governments will do is always reducible to or
>>> >  > understandable by reference to crude self-interest. Competing
>>> >  > factions articulate different arguments for national self-interest,
>>> >  > and these arguments can have very different moral consequences, and
>>> >  > some of the people supporting the arguments care about the moral
>>> >  > consequences.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > So, for example, right now there are people in Washington who are
>>> >  > arguing that continuing to support the Saudi-UAE assault on Yemen is
>>> >  > not in the interest of the U.S., and the U.S. should instead
>>> >  > pressure Saudi-UAE to stop the assault on Hodeida and agree to the
>>> >  > UN peace deal. People who care about moral consequences want that
>>> >  > argument to win, even if they themselves would be happy to see the
>>> >  > U.S. empire crash and burn.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > Robert Naiman
>>> >  > Policy Director
>>> >  > Just Foreign Policy
>>> >  > www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>> >  > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>> >  >
>>> >  > (202) 448-2898 x1
>>> >  >
>>> >  > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss
>>> >  > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>> >  >
>>> >  > Wouldn’t we be shocked if someone said, “Americans always lean
>>> >  > toward the side that serves their interests”?
>>> >  >
>>> >  > In our case the interests are those of dominant social groups in
>>> >  > this country - and in an age of neoliberalism, run counter to those
>>> >  > of the majority, here and abroad.
>>> >  >
>>> >  > On Jul 12, 2018, at 10:52 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss
>>> >  > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>> >  >
>>> >  > "Russians always lean toward the side that serves their
>>> >  > interests.”
>>> >  >
>>> >  > _______________________________________________
>>> >  > Peace-discuss mailing list
>>> >  > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>> >  > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>> >
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>>> >
>>> >  -------------------------
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>>
>>
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>
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