[Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal

Robert Naiman naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
Fri Jul 13 15:46:14 UTC 2018 

So be it.

"bjornsona" wrote: "When the anti-war movement fractures itself over which
of the two main political parties are supposedly less war-like, I am
reminded of mice deciding which mousetrap has the better cheese, while the
cat looks smugly on from above, ready to pounce."

Now everyone knows that you are responsible for the "fracture." It's your
insistence that this question must be paramount, must be on the top of the
marquee.







Robert Naiman
Policy Director
Just Foreign Policy
www.justforeignpolicy.org
naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
(202) 448-2898 x1




On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

> What good would that do? The point of these discussion lists is to expose
> ‘how the truth of things stands.’
>
>
> On Jul 13, 2018, at 10:32 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
> I'm happy to agree a cease-fire with you on this front. If you stop
> attacking "Democrats," I'll stop attacking "Greens."
>
> Do we have a deal?
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 11:28 AM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
>> Maybe we should concentrate on the people we’re killing - at home and
>> abroad - rather than the politicians you want to get into office. We should
>> rescue the former, not the latter.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jul 13, 2018, at 9:55 AM, Robert Naiman <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> "The reversal of Roe v. Wade might lead us to do what we should for
>> pregnant people - universal health care, child allowances, free education,
>> housing, a universal basic income."
>>
>> It might do that. It might also cause pigs to fly.
>>
>> This is like saying that we should ban Salvadorans and Guatemalans from
>> fleeing to the U.S. so they will go back home and foment revolutions that
>> will remove the conditions that are causing them to flee. It's a brutal
>> logic, that if applied is certain to increase brutality in the short run,
>> with a very dim prospect of leading to less brutality in the long run. Much
>> more likely, such logic will merely serve as a fig leaf for increased
>> brutality.
>>
>> So far, increased restrictions on abortion in Republican states have not
>> led to such things. And that's what we're talking about. Abortion will
>> never be illegal in New York or California. The overturn of Roe v.
>> Wade might well lead to criminalizing abortion in the most reactionary
>> states, the states least likely to enact "universal health care, child
>> allowances, free education, housing, a universal basic income."
>>
>> But at least we're having an honest conversation now. This is why you
>> want Republican rule. You want to overturn Roe v. Wade and criminalize
>> abortion. It's your democratic right to want these things. But you should
>> be honest about what your true motivations are, rather than trying to trick
>> people into thinking that your motivation for supporting Republican rule
>> has something to do with peace.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Robert Naiman
>> Policy Director
>> Just Foreign Policy
>> www.justforeignpolicy.org
>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>> (202) 448-2898 x1
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 6:48 AM, Estabrook, Carl G via Peace-discuss <
>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The reversal of Roe v. Wade might lead us to do what we should for
>>> pregnant people - universal health care, child allowances, free education,
>>> housing, a universal basic income. It would cost less than the military to
>>> protect human lives rather than end them.
>>>
>>> Abortion obviously ends a human life. Many of us summarize our political
>>> views as, “I'm basically against anything that ends human lives or destroys
>>> the planet we live on.”
>>>
>>> Most of my friends who have had abortions - or seriously considered it -
>>> did so for economic reasons - even privileged people. Those of us who have
>>> children know that it is of course a disruption - even adoption.
>>>
>>> Social and economic disruptions should be overcome, if we’re against
>>> things that end human lives, but we’re in the grip of a capitalist society
>>> that exploits human lives for the profit of the few.
>>>
>>> Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg pointed out that Roe was
>>> decided for economic and eugenic reasons: “Frankly,” she said in July 2009,
>>> “I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about
>>> population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don’t want
>>> to have too many of.”
>>>
>>> Those of us who oppose war and exploitation that end human lives should
>>> work against economic and social circumstances that convince people that
>>> they must do so as well.  --CGE
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* naiman.uiuc at gmail.com [naiman.uiuc at gmail.com] on behalf of
>>> Robert Naiman [naiman at justforeignpolicy.org]
>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 13, 2018 3:10 AM
>>> *To:* Estabrook, Carl G
>>> *Cc:* ewj at pigs.ag; C G Estabrook; Peace-discuss List
>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of
>>> anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal
>>>
>>> I don't believe that "abortion is murder," the way you guys do. And I
>>> don't think that abortion should be criminalized, the way that you guys
>>> apparently do.
>>>
>>> But I'm not in favor of there being more abortions. I'd rather see
>>> better availability of, awareness of, and use of contraception.
>>>
>>> Sweden has more liberal abortion laws than the U.S. and fewer abortions
>>> per capita. They also have better sex education, better availability of,
>>> awareness of, and use of contraception.
>>>
>>> Just because you are against criminalizing something, doesn't mean you
>>> are in favor of there being more of the thing. Just because you are against
>>> something, doesn't mean you have to support laws to criminalize it.
>>>
>>> I support decriminalizing the use of marijuana. That doesn't mean that I
>>> favor greater use of marijuana. I don't. I have no problem with social
>>> measures to discourage the use of marijuana per se. I am against
>>> criminalization.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Robert Naiman
>>> Policy Director
>>> Just Foreign Policy
>>> www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>> (202) 448-2898 x1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:36 PM, Estabrook, Carl G via Peace-discuss <
>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Only if he's consistent.
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: Peace-discuss [peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] on
>>>> behalf of e. wayne johnson via Peace-discuss [
>>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net]
>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 8:17 PM
>>>> To: Robert Naiman; C G Estabrook
>>>> Cc: Peace-discuss List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss]    debate in Iran about prospects of
>>>> anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal
>>>>
>>>> Bob, you are awash with quotables these days -
>>>> >  "The point is to save the lives of innocent human beings. Peace
>>>> people
>>>> >  are supposed to care about that."
>>>>
>>>> (Bob waxes pro-life.)
>>>>
>>>> >  -------Original Message-------
>>>> >  From: Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.
>>>> net>
>>>> >  To: C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
>>>> >  Cc: Peace-discuss List <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>>> >  Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of
>>>> anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal
>>>> >  Sent: Jul 13 '18 07:31
>>>> >
>>>> >  The point of the enterprise isn't to make anyone like the United
>>>> >  States. More people can hate the United States, it's no skin off my
>>>> >  nose.
>>>> >
>>>> >  The point is to save the lives of innocent human beings. Peace people
>>>> >  are supposed to care about that.
>>>> >
>>>> >  Robert Naiman
>>>> >  Policy Director
>>>> >  Just Foreign Policy
>>>> >  www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>>> >  naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>>> >
>>>> >  (202) 448-2898 x1
>>>> >
>>>> >  On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 5:47 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss
>>>> >  <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >  > I’lll believe it when I see it - or when the USG reverses its
>>>> >  > war-making and -mongering.
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > Anything up to that is posturing and propaganda. “The US seeks
>>>> >  > peace, but, unfortunately…"
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > On Jul 12, 2018, at 4:42 PM, Robert Naiman
>>>> >  > <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org> wrote:
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > Soon I expect an initiative from the Congressional Progressive
>>>> >  > Caucus to try to end the Saudi war in Yemen, invoking the War
>>>> Powers
>>>> >  > Resolution to try to force a House floor vote on the
>>>> >  > unconstitutional and unauthorized war.
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > Then the key question will be: whether the House leadership can be
>>>> >  > forced to allow a vote.
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > The battle will be Democrat against Democrat, and Republican
>>>> against
>>>> >  > Republican. It will be Progressive Caucus and Liberty Caucus
>>>> against
>>>> >  > the House Republican leadership and whichever Democrats collaborate
>>>> >  > with the House Republican leadership.
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > Here's a foreshadow from Adam Smith:
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > https://twitter.com/HASCDemocrats/status/1017477541031014401
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > HOUSE ARMED SERVICES‏Verified account @HASCDemocrats
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > FollowFollow @HASCDemocrats
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > More
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > . at RepAdamSmith: There is a terrible humanitarian crisis occurring.
>>>> I
>>>> >  > am working with @RepRoKhanna on a bill to stop us from blindly
>>>> >  > supporting Saudi Arabia’s actions in #Yemen.
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > 1:35 PM - 12 Jul 2018
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > You can encourage support of this effort here:
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > 34 Reps. Threatened War Powers to Stop Hodeida Assault. Press Them
>>>> >  > to Follow Through
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  https://www.change.org/p/34-reps-threatened-war-powers-to-st
>>>> op-hodeida-assault-press-them-to-follow-through
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > Robert Naiman
>>>> >  > Policy Director
>>>> >  > Just Foreign Policy
>>>> >  > www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>>> >  > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > (202) 448-2898 x1
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss
>>>> >  > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > When, in our lifetimes, have the USG - and the Democrat party - not
>>>> >  > wanted to commit a horrible crime?
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > Identifying nice Democrats has not been a way to meliorate those
>>>> >  > crimes. It’s rather a mode of collaboration.
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > On Jul 12, 2018, at 3:33 PM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss
>>>> >  > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > Are you kidding me? Of course not. Who claimed that it was?
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > It's argument that if two groups of people are fighting, and one
>>>> >  > side wants to commit a horrible crime, and the other side doesn't,
>>>> >  > you should support the side that doesn't want to commit the
>>>> horrible
>>>> >  > crime. You don't have to marry them. You just have to help them
>>>> win,
>>>> >  > to the extent that you are able.
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > Robert Naiman
>>>> >  > Policy Director
>>>> >  > Just Foreign Policy
>>>> >  > www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>>> >  > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > (202) 448-2898 x1
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via
>>>> Peace-discuss
>>>> >  > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > Is that a reason to support Israel’s killing now?
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > Sent from my iPhone
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > On Jul 12, 2018, at 3:09 PM, Robert Naiman
>>>> >  > <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org> wrote:
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > When I was in high school, I read an interview with a Russian Jew
>>>> >  > who had lived through the Russian Civil War. He was asked why so
>>>> >  > many Russian Jews had supported the Communists. He said: "There
>>>> were
>>>> >  > two groups of people with guns. One group wanted to kill Jews. The
>>>> >  > other didn't. It wasn't hard to choose sides."
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > Robert Naiman
>>>> >  > Policy Director
>>>> >  > Just Foreign Policy
>>>> >  > www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>>> >  > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > (202) 448-2898 x1
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 3:49 PM, Estabrook, Carl G via
>>>> Peace-discuss
>>>> >  > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > There were people in the American government that argued that
>>>> >  > attacking Iraq in 2003 was not the best way to control the Mideast.
>>>> >  > We could oppose the attack without supporting them or their vicious
>>>> >  > politics.
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > -------------------------
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > FROM: Peace-discuss [peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] on
>>>> >  > behalf of Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss
>>>> >  > [peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net]
>>>> >  > SENT: Thursday, July 12, 2018 2:32 PM
>>>> >  > TO: C G Estabrook
>>>> >  > CC: Peace-discuss List
>>>> >  > SUBJECT: Re: [Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of
>>>> >  > anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > You're now making the point that I was making from the beginning.
>>>> >  > Anybody who expects that Russia will take its interests as they
>>>> >  > perceive them into account less than other countries do is likely
>>>> to
>>>> >  > be disappointed. Accepting this reality doesn't require being
>>>> >  > particularly cynical about the motivations of the Russian
>>>> >  > government. It just means accepting that the Russian government is
>>>> >  > like other governments.
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > This doesn't mean that one has to accept a "vulgar Marxist" view
>>>> >  > that what governments will do is always reducible to or
>>>> >  > understandable by reference to crude self-interest. Competing
>>>> >  > factions articulate different arguments for national self-interest,
>>>> >  > and these arguments can have very different moral consequences, and
>>>> >  > some of the people supporting the arguments care about the moral
>>>> >  > consequences.
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > So, for example, right now there are people in Washington who are
>>>> >  > arguing that continuing to support the Saudi-UAE assault on Yemen
>>>> is
>>>> >  > not in the interest of the U.S., and the U.S. should instead
>>>> >  > pressure Saudi-UAE to stop the assault on Hodeida and agree to the
>>>> >  > UN peace deal. People who care about moral consequences want that
>>>> >  > argument to win, even if they themselves would be happy to see the
>>>> >  > U.S. empire crash and burn.
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > Robert Naiman
>>>> >  > Policy Director
>>>> >  > Just Foreign Policy
>>>> >  > www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>>> >  > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > (202) 448-2898 x1
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss
>>>> >  > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > Wouldn’t we be shocked if someone said, “Americans always lean
>>>> >  > toward the side that serves their interests”?
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > In our case the interests are those of dominant social groups in
>>>> >  > this country - and in an age of neoliberalism, run counter to those
>>>> >  > of the majority, here and abroad.
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > On Jul 12, 2018, at 10:52 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss
>>>> >  > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > "Russians always lean toward the side that serves their
>>>> >  > interests.”
>>>> >  >
>>>> >  > _______________________________________________
>>>> >  > Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>> >  > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>> >  > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>> >
>>>> >  _______________________________________________
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>>>> >
>>>> >  _______________________________________________
>>>> >  Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>> >  Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
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>>>> >
>>>> >  _______________________________________________
>>>> >  Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>> >  Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>> >  https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>> >
>>>> >  _______________________________________________
>>>> >  Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>> >  Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>> >  https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>> >
>>>> >  _______________________________________________
>>>> >  Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>> >  Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>> >  https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>> >
>>>> >  -------------------------
>>>> >  _______________________________________________
>>>> >  Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>> >  Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>> >  https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>> >
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>>>
>>>
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>>
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