[Peace-discuss] Stop dividing AntiWar
C G Estabrook
cgestabrook at gmail.com
Sun Jul 15 18:49:09 UTC 2018
Anne— I probably won’t be able to get to the AWARE meeting today but I will send you a response to your comment.
—CGE
> On Jul 13, 2018, at 8:26 PM, ewj via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
> bjornsona's email was scrozzled in the mailserver somehow and would not display but i found this in the raw data..
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> Carl and ewg at pigs.ag <mailto:ewg at pigs.ag>, whoever you are, again enough is enough. At the risk of projecting my own Shadow, I consider it inappropriate, counterproductive and self-indulgent for you to continue dragging abortion into an anti-war, anti-racism discussion action group. I am sure I speak for others in this group. Carl, I respect your work quite a lot. You have pointed out how identity politics splits the hungry and angry masses into easily controllable groups. The anti- abortion group is only another identity group, controlled by the Vatican, the U.S. bishops, the Christian fundamentalists, the GOP misogynists & the Stepford women. A large identity group, sure, BUT not as large as the rest of the country and the world who disagree & who generally have more science education, actual practical experience of pregnancy & birth, and belong to other spiritual traditions. It amazes me that an intelligent person like yourself would try to pass that "Live Action" article off on us as logically sound and not a collection of overwrought anecdotes. As the GOP, of whom you appear to be so fond, says, let those nurses get other jobs if they don't want to work in the delivery room. Writing your message below with such blanket statements as "pregnant people" & "abortion obviously ends a human lif e," fail the logic test too. Many WOMEN have abortions at early stages when the fetus has not yet reached quickening. I believe that is around 15-20 weeks. For thousands of years, women did not consider the fetus to be an actual baby until quickening, which I believe we now know was when the risk of spontaneous miscarriage was lower. Quickening is also after a woman has spent time eating for two and her body has begun preparing for an actual baby to develop. In other words, it is a triple venture between God, the woman, and the fetus. ( NOT that some parasite has taken over a woman's body and can develop on its own.) Even a critical reading of the Annunciation story in the New Testament allows Mary free will. If she had said No to being the mother of Jesus, would God the Father have given up? Of course not! He simply would have found another Mary, or Sarah, to be the Mother of his Son. Evidence for that is clear all over our daily lives. We are given free will choices every day. If we choose not to do somet hing, and God needs it done, it gets done in another way. (I bet you have witnessed that.) Educators & doctors know what happens if a woman does not want, or is not able to care for her own and the fetus' , then later, the baby's body. Society ends up with a stillborn or injured child:- brain damaged by lead, if the woman lives in Flint, for example. Perhaps women actually know something and care about their own bodies and fetuses/babies. What a thought! You have probably read that Russian scientists have measured a small amount of weight that leaves the body when a person dies. They speculate that is the weight of the soul. When does the soul enter the body? Perhaps at quickening, when the fetus has been determined to be able to grow into a healthy baby and not be miscarried. To address some of what you have written: yes, it would be lovely if we lived in a perfect world and the economics are such that every woman/ family could afford every pregnancy that makes it through the zygote/fetus/spontaneous miscarriage/quickening/developing baby/ to healthy birth stage. Unfortunately, we do not have that. It is cruel and ridiculous to make laws that force women & children to bear the brunt of the wars, rape, environmental degradation, floods, refugee crisis, lack of education, housing, food, jobs that we are experiencing. Not to mention climate change. It is very easy for religious ministers to pick on the smallest and weakest in their congregations in their sermons. Sure, tell the women and homosexuals how to run their lives. Their $$ contributions are less. I have read NOTHING in the New Testament in red print, in Jesus' actual words, that says ANYTHING about no abortions or that it is not ok to live life as God made one. I have seen PLENTY about no divorce, sharing with the poor, accepting everyone for who they are, getting the moneylenders out of the temple,etc. As we all must agree, if the Vatican or the Christian fundamentalists preached on that as much as they hate on women and gay people, very little $$$ would flow their way. Just to address the two verses quoted as nauseum. The Jeremiah verse: "I knew you in your mother's womb.." etc. Lovely verse. Said by God in the Old Testament TO JEREMIAH. NOT to every person who wants to adopt it as their personal slogan to march.in front of a clinic and harass people and then disappear for antiwar.marches while taking advantage of the perks of living in Empire. Also NOT Jesus' words and NOT in the New Testament, which supersedes the Old. The same people who cherrypick what they want from the OT try to force poor women in the U.S.what to do. And Paul's advice on not being homosexual. Please. Not Jesus' words. Also a different time and place, with rampant orgies, sexual mores run amuck. And yet Paul did not preach about no sex with children or slaves and neither do most preachers today. And you have been to Rome, I assume? Statues from antiquity of naked men everywhere. Still going on today. Many people think the "thorn in Paul's side" was his own homosexuality. How strange. I lose my respect. The ONLY way these powermongers and warmongers hold on to their divisions is by FEAR. This particular fear is strong: that of going to hell when we die. I submit that the Hell is really here on earth where so many people suffer. And that they know it and use it against us. For evidence: the many books and Ted Talk videos on experiences people have when they die and come back to life. I cannot believe they were all perfect, yet each one has a beautiful experience. Love and heaven are here on earth and after death. We get them by tearing people well and as individuals, not as possessions we can legislate. What is that quote from Rumi about how our children are not ours and they go into a future we cannot know? Unless you have concrete plans on how to convince antiabortion groups to join their admittedly concentrated focus to our anti-war efforts, it would be great if you all would join an anti abortion or pro life list serve if you want to have those conversations. It wastes our time here. We already know our mission.
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> On 2018-07-14 00:36 , bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> Wrote:
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> https://www.liveaction.org/news/babies-born-alive-after-abortions-part-3-nurses-tell-their-stories/ <https://www.liveaction.org/news/babies-born-alive-after-abortions-part-3-nurses-tell-their-stories/>
>
> From: Peace-discuss [peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net <mailto:[peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net>] on behalf of Estabrook, Carl G via Peace-discuss [peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:[peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>]
> Sent: Friday, July 13, 2018 5:48 AM
> To: Robert Naiman
> Cc: Peace-discuss List
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal
>
> The reversal of Roe v. Wade might lead us to do what we should for pregnant people - universal health care, child allowances, free education, housing, a universal basic income. It would cost less than the military to protect human lives rather than end them.
>
> Abortion obviously ends a human life. Many of us summarize our political views as, “I'm basically against anything that ends human lives or destroys the planet we live on.”
>
> Most of my friends who have had abortions - or seriously considered it - did so for economic reasons - even privileged people. Those of us who have children know that it is of course a disruption - even adoption.
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> Social and economic disruptions should be overcome, if we’re against things that end human lives, but we’re in the grip of a capitalist society that exploits human lives for the profit of the few.
>
> Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg pointed out that Roe was decided for economic and eugenic reasons: “Frankly,” she said in July 2009, “I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don’t want to have too many of.”
>
> Those of us who oppose war and exploitation that end human lives should work against economic and social circumstances that convince people that they must do so as well. --CGE
> From: naiman.uiuc at gmail.com <mailto: naiman.uiuc at gmail.com> [naiman.uiuc at gmail.com <mailto:[naiman.uiuc at gmail.com>] on behalf of Robert Naiman [naiman at justforeignpolicy.org <mailto:[naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>]
> Sent: Friday, July 13, 2018 3:10 AM
> To: Estabrook, Carl G
> Cc: ewj at pigs.ag <mailto: ewj at pigs.ag>; C G Estabrook; Peace-discuss List
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal
>
> I don't believe that "abortion is murder," the way you guys do. And I don't think that abortion should be criminalized, the way that you guys apparently do.
>
> But I'm not in favor of there being more abortions. I'd rather see better availability of, awareness of, and use of contraception.
>
> Sweden has more liberal abortion laws than the U.S. and fewer abortions per capita. They also have better sex education, better availability of, awareness of, and use of contraception.
>
> Just because you are against criminalizing something, doesn't mean you are in favor of there being more of the thing. Just because you are against something, doesn't mean you have to support laws to criminalize it.
>
> I support decriminalizing the use of marijuana. That doesn't mean that I favor greater use of marijuana. I don't. I have no problem with social measures to discourage the use of marijuana per se. I am against criminalization.
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> Robert Naiman
> Policy Director
> Just Foreign Policy
> www.justforeignpolicy.org <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.justforeignpolicy.org&d=DwMF_g&c=OCIEmEwdEq_aNlsP4fF3gFqSN-E3mlr2t9JcDdfOZag&r=4p_1umaGy6GSn3GnAtc6qB-u5jRD_xNUZTMjXBfCFOY&m=XBpDQNfsCpbFk73bxmmnUJ7FBpflXyyw-7eQtc2XPJ8&s=zZysYrlRIzOQ4hhGLx1RsTr3WA-Q12s1flX4CLGgCNI&e=>
> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org <mailto:naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
> (202) 448-2898 <tel:(202) 448-2898> x1
>
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> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:36 PM, Estabrook, Carl G via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>>wrote:
> Only if he's consistent.
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Peace-discuss [peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net>] on behalf of e. wayne johnson via Peace-discuss [peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>]
> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 8:17 PM
> To: Robert Naiman; C G Estabrook
> Cc: Peace-discuss List
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal
>
> Bob, you are awash with quotables these days -
> > "The point is to save the lives of innocent human beings. Peace people
> > are supposed to care about that."
>
> (Bob waxes pro-life.)
>
> > -------Original Message-------
> > From: Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>>
> > To: C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com <mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com>>
> > Cc: Peace-discuss List <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>>
> > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal
> > Sent: Jul 13 '18 07:31
> >
> > The point of the enterprise isn't to make anyone like the United
> > States. More people can hate the United States, it's no skin off my
> > nose.
> >
> > The point is to save the lives of innocent human beings. Peace people
> > are supposed to care about that.
> >
> > Robert Naiman
> > Policy Director
> > Just Foreign Policy
> > www.justforeignpolicy.org <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.justforeignpolicy.org&d=DwMF_g&c=OCIEmEwdEq_aNlsP4fF3gFqSN-E3mlr2t9JcDdfOZag&r=4p_1umaGy6GSn3GnAtc6qB-u5jRD_xNUZTMjXBfCFOY&m=XBpDQNfsCpbFk73bxmmnUJ7FBpflXyyw-7eQtc2XPJ8&s=zZysYrlRIzOQ4hhGLx1RsTr3WA-Q12s1flX4CLGgCNI&e=>
> > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org <mailto:naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
> >
> > (202) 448-2898 <tel:(202) 448-2898> x1
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 5:47 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss
> > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
> >
> > > I’lll believe it when I see it - or when the USG reverses its
> > > war-making and -mongering.
> > >
> > > Anything up to that is posturing and propaganda. “The US seeks
> > > peace, but, unfortunately…"
> > >
> > > On Jul 12, 2018, at 4:42 PM, Robert Naiman
> > > <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org <mailto:naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Soon I expect an initiative from the Congressional Progressive
> > > Caucus to try to end the Saudi war in Yemen, invoking the War Powers
> > > Resolution to try to force a House floor vote on the
> > > unconstitutional and unauthorized war.
> > >
> > > Then the key question will be: whether the House leadership can be
> > > forced to allow a vote.
> > >
> > > The battle will be Democrat against Democrat, and Republican against
> > > Republican. It will be Progressive Caucus and Liberty Caucus against
> > > the House Republican leadership and whichever Democrats collaborate
> > > with the House Republican leadership.
> > >
> > > Here's a foreshadow from Adam Smith:
> > >
> > > https://twitter.com/HASCDemocrats/status/1017477541031014401 <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__twitter.com_HASCDemocrats_status_1017477541031014401&d=DwMF_g&c=OCIEmEwdEq_aNlsP4fF3gFqSN-E3mlr2t9JcDdfOZag&r=4p_1umaGy6GSn3GnAtc6qB-u5jRD_xNUZTMjXBfCFOY&m=XBpDQNfsCpbFk73bxmmnUJ7FBpflXyyw-7eQtc2XPJ8&s=C8hP89MiNwyJ5vhZqEjWF5ZRb2lRWdY6gAMz3hobZdE&e=>
> > >
> > > HOUSE ARMED SERVICESVerified account @HASCDemocrats
> > >
> > > FollowFollow @HASCDemocrats
> > >
> > > More
> > >
> > > . at RepAdamSmith: There is a terrible humanitarian crisis occurring. I
> > > am working with @RepRoKhanna on a bill to stop us from blindly
> > > supporting Saudi Arabia’s actions in #Yemen.
> > >
> > > 1:35 PM - 12 Jul 2018
> > >
> > > You can encourage support of this effort here:
> > >
> > > 34 Reps. Threatened War Powers to Stop Hodeida Assault. Press Them
> > > to Follow Through
> > >
> > >
> > https://www.change.org/p/34-reps-threatened-war-powers-to-stop-hodeida-assault-press-them-to-follow-through <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.change.org_p_34-2Dreps-2Dthreatened-2Dwar-2Dpowers-2Dto-2Dstop-2Dhodeida-2Dassault-2Dpress-2Dthem-2Dto-2Dfollow-2Dthrough&d=DwMF_g&c=OCIEmEwdEq_aNlsP4fF3gFqSN-E3mlr2t9JcDdfOZag&r=4p_1umaGy6GSn3GnAtc6qB-u5jRD_xNUZTMjXBfCFOY&m=XBpDQNfsCpbFk73bxmmnUJ7FBpflXyyw-7eQtc2XPJ8&s=fKqDPyITNMsMSD49xRHCdc4tZ_YZRnMqFjz_YAHl26o&e=>
> > >
> > > Robert Naiman
> > > Policy Director
> > > Just Foreign Policy
> > > www.justforeignpolicy.org <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.justforeignpolicy.org&d=DwMF_g&c=OCIEmEwdEq_aNlsP4fF3gFqSN-E3mlr2t9JcDdfOZag&r=4p_1umaGy6GSn3GnAtc6qB-u5jRD_xNUZTMjXBfCFOY&m=XBpDQNfsCpbFk73bxmmnUJ7FBpflXyyw-7eQtc2XPJ8&s=zZysYrlRIzOQ4hhGLx1RsTr3WA-Q12s1flX4CLGgCNI&e=>
> > > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org <mailto:naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
> > >
> > > (202) 448-2898 <tel:(202) 448-2898> x1
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss
> > > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
> > >
> > > When, in our lifetimes, have the USG - and the Democrat party - not
> > > wanted to commit a horrible crime?
> > >
> > > Identifying nice Democrats has not been a way to meliorate those
> > > crimes. It’s rather a mode of collaboration.
> > >
> > > On Jul 12, 2018, at 3:33 PM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss
> > > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Are you kidding me? Of course not. Who claimed that it was?
> > >
> > > It's argument that if two groups of people are fighting, and one
> > > side wants to commit a horrible crime, and the other side doesn't,
> > > you should support the side that doesn't want to commit the horrible
> > > crime. You don't have to marry them. You just have to help them win,
> > > to the extent that you are able.
> > >
> > > Robert Naiman
> > > Policy Director
> > > Just Foreign Policy
> > > www.justforeignpolicy.org <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.justforeignpolicy.org&d=DwMF_g&c=OCIEmEwdEq_aNlsP4fF3gFqSN-E3mlr2t9JcDdfOZag&r=4p_1umaGy6GSn3GnAtc6qB-u5jRD_xNUZTMjXBfCFOY&m=XBpDQNfsCpbFk73bxmmnUJ7FBpflXyyw-7eQtc2XPJ8&s=zZysYrlRIzOQ4hhGLx1RsTr3WA-Q12s1flX4CLGgCNI&e=>
> > > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org <mailto:naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
> > >
> > > (202) 448-2898 <tel:(202) 448-2898> x1
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss
> > > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Is that a reason to support Israel’s killing now?
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Jul 12, 2018, at 3:09 PM, Robert Naiman
> > > <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org <mailto:naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>> wrote:
> > >
> > > When I was in high school, I read an interview with a Russian Jew
> > > who had lived through the Russian Civil War. He was asked why so
> > > many Russian Jews had supported the Communists. He said: "There were
> > > two groups of people with guns. One group wanted to kill Jews. The
> > > other didn't. It wasn't hard to choose sides."
> > >
> > > Robert Naiman
> > > Policy Director
> > > Just Foreign Policy
> > > www.justforeignpolicy.org <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.justforeignpolicy.org&d=DwMF_g&c=OCIEmEwdEq_aNlsP4fF3gFqSN-E3mlr2t9JcDdfOZag&r=4p_1umaGy6GSn3GnAtc6qB-u5jRD_xNUZTMjXBfCFOY&m=XBpDQNfsCpbFk73bxmmnUJ7FBpflXyyw-7eQtc2XPJ8&s=zZysYrlRIzOQ4hhGLx1RsTr3WA-Q12s1flX4CLGgCNI&e=>
> > > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org <mailto:naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
> > >
> > > (202) 448-2898 <tel:(202) 448-2898> x1
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 3:49 PM, Estabrook, Carl G via Peace-discuss
> > > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
> > >
> > > There were people in the American government that argued that
> > > attacking Iraq in 2003 was not the best way to control the Mideast.
> > > We could oppose the attack without supporting them or their vicious
> > > politics.
> > >
> > > -------------------------
> > >
> > > FROM: Peace-discuss [peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net>] on
> > > behalf of Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss
> > > [peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>]
> > > SENT: Thursday, July 12, 2018 2:32 PM
> > > TO: C G Estabrook
> > > CC: Peace-discuss List
> > > SUBJECT: Re: [Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of
> > > anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal
> > >
> > > You're now making the point that I was making from the beginning.
> > > Anybody who expects that Russia will take its interests as they
> > > perceive them into account less than other countries do is likely to
> > > be disappointed. Accepting this reality doesn't require being
> > > particularly cynical about the motivations of the Russian
> > > government. It just means accepting that the Russian government is
> > > like other governments.
> > >
> > > This doesn't mean that one has to accept a "vulgar Marxist" view
> > > that what governments will do is always reducible to or
> > > understandable by reference to crude self-interest. Competing
> > > factions articulate different arguments for national self-interest,
> > > and these arguments can have very different moral consequences, and
> > > some of the people supporting the arguments care about the moral
> > > consequences.
> > >
> > > So, for example, right now there are people in Washington who are
> > > arguing that continuing to support the Saudi-UAE assault on Yemen is
> > > not in the interest of the U.S., and the U.S. should instead
> > > pressure Saudi-UAE to stop the assault on Hodeida and agree to the
> > > UN peace deal. People who care about moral consequences want that
> > > argument to win, even if they themselves would be happy to see the
> > > U.S. empire crash and burn.
> > >
> > > Robert Naiman
> > > Policy Director
> > > Just Foreign Policy
> > > www.justforeignpolicy.org <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.justforeignpolicy.org&d=DwMF_g&c=OCIEmEwdEq_aNlsP4fF3gFqSN-E3mlr2t9JcDdfOZag&r=4p_1umaGy6GSn3GnAtc6qB-u5jRD_xNUZTMjXBfCFOY&m=XBpDQNfsCpbFk73bxmmnUJ7FBpflXyyw-7eQtc2XPJ8&s=zZysYrlRIzOQ4hhGLx1RsTr3WA-Q12s1flX4CLGgCNI&e=>
> > > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org <mailto:naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
> > >
> > > (202) 448-2898 <tel:(202) 448-2898> x1
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss
> > > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Wouldn’t we be shocked if someone said, “Americans always lean
> > > toward the side that serves their interests”?
> > >
> > > In our case the interests are those of dominant social groups in
> > > this country - and in an age of neoliberalism, run counter to those
> > > of the majority, here and abroad.
> > >
> > > On Jul 12, 2018, at 10:52 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss
> > > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
> > >
> > > "Russians always lean toward the side that serves their
> > > interests.”
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Peace-discuss mailing list
> > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.chambana.net_mailman_listinfo_peace-2Ddiscuss&d=DwMF_g&c=OCIEmEwdEq_aNlsP4fF3gFqSN-E3mlr2t9JcDdfOZag&r=4p_1umaGy6GSn3GnAtc6qB-u5jRD_xNUZTMjXBfCFOY&m=XBpDQNfsCpbFk73bxmmnUJ7FBpflXyyw-7eQtc2XPJ8&s=uf9CsAbPigAx2uAc-Fdg3xqJi1pL_M_Zv9Kev_CLsyw&e=>
> >
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> >
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