From brussel at illinois.edu Fri Jun 1 02:13:18 2018 From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 02:13:18 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: A very long read on Russia US relations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9763B8A4-1D55-4DB0-9CD3-CC601373BC49@illinois.edu> Plenty of useful and interesting facts are presented in ths article, but largely misses the point of the feral antagonism towards Russia and Putin by U.S. politicians, academics and media, namely that Russia is a (potential) global competitor for influence, ideas, resources, and power, something which cannot be countenanced (by our corporate dominated militarized state). On May 31, 2018, at 5:02 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: http://npetro.net/resources/Petro-FF+Spring+2018.pdf] _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 02:18:02 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 21:18:02 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: A very long read on Russia US relations In-Reply-To: <9763B8A4-1D55-4DB0-9CD3-CC601373BC49@illinois.edu> References: <9763B8A4-1D55-4DB0-9CD3-CC601373BC49@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <47699EF6-E841-4B13-AEF1-95D6036D51B6@gmail.com> Exactly. > On May 31, 2018, at 9:13 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Plenty of useful and interesting facts are presented in ths article, but largely misses the point of the feral antagonism towards Russia and Putin by U.S. politicians, academics and media, namely that Russia is a (potential) global competitor for influence, ideas, resources, and power, something which cannot be countenanced (by our corporate dominated militarized state). > >> On May 31, 2018, at 5:02 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> >>> >>> http://npetro.net/resources/Petro-FF+Spring+2018.pdf ] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Jun 1 03:16:19 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 03:16:19 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_=5BNew_post=5D_Moreno=3A_Assange?= =?utf-8?q?_Can_Remain_At_Embassy=2C_So_Long_As_He_Doesn=E2=80=99t_Practic?= =?utf-8?q?e_Journalism?= References: <139971992.4702.0@wordpress.com> Message-ID: From: Caitlin Johnstone > Subject: [New post] Moreno: Assange Can Remain At Embassy, So Long As He Doesn’t Practice Journalism Date: May 31, 2018 at 19:23:02 PDT New post on Caitlin Johnstone [https://i1.wp.com/caitlinjohnstone.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/cropped-caitlinpic1.jpg?resize=32%2C32&ssl=1] [http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/12152988a68a6d4dae7506812444c18f?s=50&d=monsterid&r=G] Moreno: Assange Can Remain At Embassy, So Long As He Doesn’t Practice Journalism by Caitlin Johnstone In 1999 I took a backpack and my life savings to South America, intending to spend six months traversing as much of the continent as I could possibly fit in. I landed in Ecuador and my plans changed almost immediately. I fell in love with the country and its people and ended up spending over half my time there. I arrived a few days after the banks had collapsed in a grim neoliberal foreshadowing as to what was going to happen in the States a decade later. Bank accounts were frozen as the government put salvaging the banks above feeding the people. There was anger and rioting, tear gas and rubber bullets, and a brass band. Always, there was a brass band. Sometimes shirtless, often shoeless, with a few dinged-up instruments creating a wild cacophony of joy to riot to. A tiny country with the equator running through three distinct topographies -- the coast, the alps and the jungle -- its claim to being "el mitad del mundo" rings true. It feels like you are living in the heart of the world. It is life, concentrated. And its people seem more real and more alive than any I have encountered in my many travels. Which is why I was not surprised when this plucky nation knowingly took on the wrath of the western empire in granting Julian Assange political asylum in 2012. While my own sycophantic country Australia pathetically ignored the plight of its own citizen, Ecuador defiantly strode forward, locked eyes with the US-centralized power establishment, and did what no one else was willing to. Granting political asylum to a journalist who is being persecuted for speaking truth to power was the right thing to do, and for a few fine years Ecuador showed the world its soul with this brave act. You can understand my dismay, then, to see President Lenín Moreno flushing it all down the toilet by now telling that same journalist that he will no longer receive political asylum if he ever again speaks truth to power. Ecuador's president Moreno: @JulianAssange will remain isolated indefinitely as he has "surpassed the limits of freedom of expression" (that Moreno invented) and Ecuador will "prevent him speaking about politics... That’s why we cut his communication".https://t.co/bhpeCe8pAP — WikiLeaks (@wikileaks) May 31, 2018 In an interview with German publication Deutsche Welle, Ecuador's president confirmed reports that revoking Assange's political asylum is being actively considered and remains an option on the table, saying that his administration will "take a decision" if the WikiLeaks editor-in-chief refuses to comply with instructions to cease voicing his political opinions online. Saying that Assange's public geopolitical analysis has “surpassed the limits of freedom of expression,” Moreno's conditions on Assange's continued asylum amount to a demand that Assange cease to practice the journalism he was granted political asylum for in the first place. "Let’s not forget the conditions of his asylum prevent him from speaking about politics or intervening in the politics of other countries. That’s why we cut his communication,” Moreno said. WikiLeaks has publicly and repeatedly denied that Assange ever made any agreement to refrain from political commentary as a condition of his asylum at the Ecuadorian embassy in London, and indeed we have never heard any talk about any such agreement until after Moreno took office last year. Assange has now been in effective isolation without any access to visitors, phone calls or internet for two months, reportedly due to a tweet Assange made criticizing the Spanish government's oppressive response to the Catalan independence movement. Ecuador's previous president, Rafael Correa, has denounced the Moreno administration's isolation of Assange as a form of torture. Claims made by Ecuador's public affairs office that @wikileaks editor @julianassange, arguably the world's best known free speech avtivist, is under a gag agreement, are, perhaps unsurpringly, entirely false. — WikiLeaks (@wikileaks) March 28, 2018 So it appears that Assange is being presented with three options: 1. Remain in isolation indefinitely and suffer the gradual decline of body and mind which necessarily comes with it. 2. Come out of isolation on the condition that he cease voicing his political opinions or doing anything which could be perceived as interfering in the affairs of another nation, which would be to cease practicing journalism, and, in a sense, cease being Julian Assange. 3. Be forced out of the embassy. All three options that Assange is being offered result in his being silenced. The police patrolling the embassy have standing orders to arrest him as soon as he sets foot outside regardless of his diplomatic status, the British government has for six years refused to say whether it has received a US extradition request for Assange, and the Trump administration has made no secret about its agenda to arrest Assange and crush WikiLeaks. He either rots in isolation, remains politically silent and inactive, or goes to prison under the same government which tortured Chelsea Manning. WikiLeaks publisher @JulianAssange "surpassed the limits of freedom of expression" by "speaking about politics" says Ecuador's President Lenin Moreno. Let that sink in. #FreeAssange pic.twitter.com/tTUKMLGLWl — #FreeAssange! (tweets by campaign)[⌛] (@JulianAssange) June 1, 2018 The western empire's agenda to silence a dissident journalist, which President Moreno is now fully facilitating, proves beyond a doubt that the world needs the truth-spreading work of WikiLeaks more than ever, and it proves that Ecuador was right to shelter him from persecution in the first place. Walking back on that to fall into imperial sycophancy after all these years is shameful. There are precious few forces in this world that have both the will to do great good and the power to enforce it. Ecuador is one of them. Here's hoping it turns around and shows the world that brave, indomitable spirit I fell in love with in 1999. ________________________ Internet censorship is getting pretty bad, so best way to keep seeing my daily articles is to get on the mailing list for my website, so you'll get an email notification for everything I publish. My articles and podcasts are entirely reader and listener-funded, so if you enjoyed this piece please consider sharing it around, liking me on Facebook, following my antics on Twitter, checking out my podcast, throwing some money into my hat on Patreon or Paypal, or buying my book Woke: A Field Guide for Utopia Preppers. [https://cdn.steemitimages.com/0x0/https://cdn.steemitimages.com/0x0/https://cdn.steemitimages.com/0x0/https://cdn.steemitimages.com/0x0/https://cdn.steemitimages.com/0x0/https://images.steemitimages.com/0x0/https://steemitimages.com/DQmYCXK2gdaSWuBx3KUJWqt8vcw3bJMrj3TfgF9zVjJeaAM/image.png] Bitcoin donations:1Ac7PCQXoQoLA9Sh8fhAgiU3PHA2EX5Zm2 Caitlin Johnstone | June 1, 2018 at 2:22 am | Tags: ecuador, embassy, julian assange, Lenin Moreno, wikileaks | Categories: Article, News | URL: https://wp.me/p9tj6M-1dQ Comment See all comments Unsubscribe to no longer receive posts from Caitlin Johnstone. Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions. Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2018/06/01/moreno-assange-can-remain-at-embassy-so-long-as-he-doesnt-practice-journalism/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Jun 1 11:32:36 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 11:32:36 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The Real News with Col. Wilkerson on the US in the South China Sea Part 1 Message-ID: AARON MATE: It’s The Real News. I’m Aaron Mate. A long-simmering dispute between the U.S. and China over the South China Sea is intensifying. China has accused the U.S. of what it calls a serious violation of Chinese sovereignty after two U.S. warships passed by the South China Sea islands that China claims as its own. China has built installations and conducted military exercises as part of its claim to 80 percent of South China Sea waters. That claim is disputed by Vietnam, the Philippines, Malaysia, Taiwan, and Brunei. But since 2010, the U.S. has gotten increasingly involved. And this week, Defense Secretary James Mattis said the U.S. will continue to confront what he called China’s militarization in South China Sea waters. JAMES MATTIS: There had been a promise in 2015 by the President Xi in the Rose Garden, the White House meeting, where he stated they would not be militarizing the Spratly Islands. We have seen the last month they have done exactly that, moving weaponry in that was never there before. We are going out of our way to cooperate with Pacific nations. That’s the way we do business in the world. But we are also going to confront what we believe is out of step with international law, out of step with international tribunals that have spoken on the issue. And part of this is we maintain a very transparent military activity out in the Pacific. AARON MATE: Joining me is Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, the former chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell, now a distinguished professor at the College of William and Mary. Welcome, Colonel. If you could explain for us what you see as at stake in this complicated dispute, because it’s not just between the U.S. and the South China Sea- it’s not just between the U.S. and China over the South China Sea, but it also involves many other Pacific nations who are also at odds with China. LARRY WILKERSON: Yes, it does. At the head of that other list of nations, if you will, are a treaty ally with the United States, the Philippines, and another country with whom the United States has had various sorts of relations, of late fairly warm relations, Vietnam. Vietnam, of course, has its own ideas, and in many respects actually started all this by moving out on some of these unclaimed islands, [sealets], if you will, or islets, if you will, and beginning to do things on them. The Chinese picked up on that, and began to do more things. And of course, the Chinese had far more capacity to do these things than the Vietnamese did. So it is a contested thing that the Chinese are doing, but others, others have tried to do it, too, for various reasons. Fishing, possible fossil fuel resources, mineral resources, and so forth. I think China’s principal reason for doing it, we can see quite clearly now, is that they look at the South China Sea much the way we look at the Gulf of Mexico. But even more, if you will, in your face, because they see that as keeping, first of all, us at a distance from them, their very critical element, military elements in Fujian province and on [Hainan] Island, in particular. Getting a standoff distance, if you will, by being further out. And this is the maritime edge, if you will, of their Belt Road Initiative. The big one, of course, the trillion dollar one going across Central Asia. But this is a hedging strategy for that one. A maritime road, also, which we’ve seen recently in the news, really, because China is running railroads to Iran. It’s joining India and other countries in helping Iran do refurbishment of its ports, particularly in Chabahar and Bandar Abbas. So China is breaking out, if you will. It’s very ahistorical in some senses, because China has never been a power projection country. Never been a country that threatened people beyond its borders. It felt pretty content to stay within the Middle Kingdom and stay within the mandate of heaven, if you will, and not to mix with the other barbarians in the world. This is a very different kind of approach for China, and I think it comes along with having funded their military to the point now where their military is becoming somewhat like our own, where it has its own policy agenda, and civilians dare not disregard that policy agenda entirely. So yes, this is an area that presents us with a real challenge, because one, it introduces us to a possible confrontation area with the number one power in the world other than ourselves. And two, it’s fraught with all manner of allied participation, or friendly participation, for various and sundry reasons, most of which are self interest, just as is China’s. But China is much bigger than they are. And so they need us, bilaterally and multilaterally, to be able to stand up to China, whether they’re the Philippines, the Sultan of Brunei, or Vietnam. They need us. AARON MATE: Well, let me ask you, when the U.S. explains its reasons for being engaged in this dispute, of course the U.S. has no territorial claim to South China Sea waters, it cites exactly that. It says that our allies have asked us to intervene. Is that accurate? LARRY WILKERSON: Well, that’s accurate as far as it goes. But it’s rhetoric that covers up the real complexity and the real reason we’re there. And that is true in another place where China seems to be growing beyond its trousers, so to speak. We’re challenging them. This is the case wherever China reaches out and seems to be operating in a way that is inimical to international interests, but most cogently inimical to U.S. interests. We don’t want China having that vast swath of ocean that increases their strategic depth, particularly if someday we feel like we might have to take China on. It also, if you look at it closely, look at the map closely, it also more or less increases the isolation of Taiwan, because you spread China’s defensive perimeter out so far that you push Taiwan deeply into China’s strategic orbit. Of course, that’s what they want. That’s not necessarily what we want. So it’s a dangerous set of circumstances. And every day that goes by I sit and wonder, and I read, like Evan Feigenbaum’s recent long piece on China. Evan’s one of the smartest China heads going. And I’m listening to others who are in the region right now, some in Singapore, some in Burma, Myanmar, some in Sri Lanka, some in India, telling me about what they’re seeing with the land base, based Road initiative of the Chinese. And while I’m very confident that this is a, an initiative that has the chance to be a Marshall Plan times 10, or times 20 the vast sums that are associated with it, and lift maybe a billion people over time into the middle classes and out of poverty. I still see some of the ramifications of it as being increasingly so much in China’s interest and so little in the host country’s interest, if you will, like Sri Lanka, that I’m wondering just how innocent and how positive for the peoples in the region this Chinese initiative is. And so inevitably you see this tension building between the rising power and the status quo power that Graham Allison talked about in his recent book, and it’s worrisome, because we don’t need a war between these two powers. And to come back to your point, the South China Sea is a likely sparking point for such a war. I’ve done these war games. I know what it is to go to the defence of Taiwan, so to speak. I know what it is to take the Chinese on in these waters, and you don’t want to go there. Neither Beijing nor Washington wants to go there, and certainly not Japan, or Indonesia, or Australia, or any of the countries in Southeast Asia or nearby, or in Northeast Asia. You just don’t want to go there. It winds up being nuclear. In every war game I ever fought, it winds up being nuclear. That’s not where the world needs to be going. AARON MATE: All right. We’ll take a break and come back in Part 2. My guest is Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, former chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell, and currently a history professor at the College of William and Mary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuartnlevy at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 11:41:28 2018 From: stuartnlevy at gmail.com (Stuart Levy) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 06:41:28 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] #FamiliesBelongTogether - ACLU rally noon *today* 6/1 at US Attorney's Office in Urbana Message-ID: <59231ec3-ab17-a578-65e7-309d22540d8f@gmail.com> #FamiliesBelongTogether Rally noon *today*, Friday 6/1 US Attorney's Office in Urbana 201 S Vine St, Suite 226 RSVP here:     https://go.peoplepower.org/event/action_attend/14164 >From ACLU People Power.   They write: We need to raise our voices against the key actors who are carrying out Trump’s family separation order: ICE and U.S. Attorneys. ICE apprehends and separates families while US Attorneys enforce the separation in legal proceedings. We need to stand up against this incompetence and the moral abomination of family separation. We're excited to be partnering with the National Domestic Workers Alliance, MomsRising, United We Dream, MoveOn and many others to hold family-friendly rallies across the country. Bring your friends, wheel your stroller on over, grab your lunch boxes, and make your family's voice heard loud and clear, that #FamiliesBelongTogether. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Fri Jun 1 15:51:10 2018 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2018 10:51:10 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] #FamiliesBelongTogether - ACLU rally noon *today* 6/1 at US Attorney's Office in Urbana Message-ID: Sorry to hitch onto this thread. Is AWARE holding regular Ist Saturday of month protest in downtown Champaign tomorrow, June 2? We discussed it at last Sundays AWARE meeting. Attendees were Don, Genevieve, Doug, Anne Bj. (Hope I have names and spelling correct!) Consensus on Sunday seemed to be yes. Question was- is there something else going on downtown that might interfere with protest? Also do we need a flyer? Suggestion on flyer: "Do All Lives Matter?" What about Native Americans? "   Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Stuart Levy via Peace-discussDate: Fri, Jun 1, 2018 6:42 AMTo: Peace;Cc: Subject:[Peace-discuss] #FamiliesBelongTogether - ACLU rally noon *today* 6/1 at US Attorney's Office in Urbana #FamiliesBelongTogether Rally noon *today*, Friday 6/1 US Attorney's Office in Urbana 201 S Vine St, Suite 226 RSVP here:     https://go.peoplepower.org/event/action_attend/14164 From ACLU People Power.   They write: We need to raise our voices against the key actors who are carrying out Trump’s family separation order: ICE and U.S. Attorneys. ICE apprehends and separates families while US Attorneys enforce the separation in legal proceedings. We need to stand up against this incompetence and the moral abomination of family separation. We're excited to be partnering with the National Domestic Workers Alliance, MomsRising, United We Dream, MoveOn and many others to hold family-friendly rallies across the country. Bring your friends, wheel your stroller on over, grab your lunch boxes, and make your family's voice heard loud and clear, that #FamiliesBelongTogether. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuartnlevy at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 16:06:00 2018 From: stuartnlevy at gmail.com (Stuart Levy) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 11:06:00 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] #FamiliesBelongTogether - ACLU rally noon *today* 6/1 at US Attorney's Office in Urbana In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I assume we are demonstrating in downtown Champaign on Saturday at 2, yes.   Has anyone heard of some goings-on that conflict with it? On 06/01/2018 10:51 AM, bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss wrote: > Sorry to hitch onto this thread. Is AWARE holding regular Ist Saturday > of month protest in downtown Champaign tomorrow, June 2? We discussed > it at last Sundays AWARE meeting. Attendees were Don, Genevieve, Doug, > Anne Bj. (Hope I have names and spelling correct!) Consensus on Sunday > seemed to be yes. Question was- is there something else going on > downtown that might interfere with protest? Also do we need a flyer?  > Suggestion on flyer:  > "Do All Lives Matter?" What about Native Americans? "   > > /Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone/ > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss > *Date: *Fri, Jun 1, 2018 6:42 AM > *To: *Peace; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[Peace-discuss] #FamiliesBelongTogether - ACLU rally noon > *today* 6/1 at US Attorney's Office in Urbana > > #FamiliesBelongTogether > > Rally noon *today*, Friday 6/1 > US Attorney's Office in Urbana > 201 S Vine St, Suite 226 > > RSVP here: >     https://go.peoplepower.org/event/action_attend/14164 > > From ACLU People Power.   They write: > > We need to raise our voices against the key actors who are > carrying out Trump’s family separation order: ICE and U.S. > Attorneys. ICE apprehends and separates families while US > Attorneys enforce the separation in legal proceedings. We need to > stand up against this incompetence and the moral abomination of > family separation. > > We're excited to be partnering with the National Domestic Workers > Alliance, MomsRising, United We Dream, MoveOn and many others to > hold family-friendly rallies across the country. Bring your > friends, wheel your stroller on over, grab your lunch boxes, and > make your family's voice heard loud and clear, that > #FamiliesBelongTogether. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Jun 1 16:10:00 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 16:10:00 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] #FamiliesBelongTogether - ACLU rally noon *today* 6/1 at US Attorney's Office in Urbana In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My assumption is that we will be holding it per usual Saturday, downtown 2:00 - 4:00pm, whether there is something else or not. The “Mothers against Guns" are holding a memorial in Westlake Park, I believe it is, at 4:00 pm. So I see it as complimentary, and hope Aware people will attend that as well. Provided its not too hot. On Jun 1, 2018, at 09:06, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss > wrote: I assume we are demonstrating in downtown Champaign on Saturday at 2, yes. Has anyone heard of some goings-on that conflict with it? On 06/01/2018 10:51 AM, bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss wrote: Sorry to hitch onto this thread. Is AWARE holding regular Ist Saturday of month protest in downtown Champaign tomorrow, June 2? We discussed it at last Sundays AWARE meeting. Attendees were Don, Genevieve, Doug, Anne Bj. (Hope I have names and spelling correct!) Consensus on Sunday seemed to be yes. Question was- is there something else going on downtown that might interfere with protest? Also do we need a flyer? Suggestion on flyer: "Do All Lives Matter?" What about Native Americans? " Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------ From: Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss Date: Fri, Jun 1, 2018 6:42 AM To: Peace; Cc: Subject:[Peace-discuss] #FamiliesBelongTogether - ACLU rally noon *today* 6/1 at US Attorney's Office in Urbana #FamiliesBelongTogether Rally noon *today*, Friday 6/1 US Attorney's Office in Urbana 201 S Vine St, Suite 226 RSVP here: https://go.peoplepower.org/event/action_attend/14164 From ACLU People Power. They write: We need to raise our voices against the key actors who are carrying out Trump’s family separation order: ICE and U.S. Attorneys. ICE apprehends and separates families while US Attorneys enforce the separation in legal proceedings. We need to stand up against this incompetence and the moral abomination of family separation. We're excited to be partnering with the National Domestic Workers Alliance, MomsRising, United We Dream, MoveOn and many others to hold family-friendly rallies across the country. Bring your friends, wheel your stroller on over, grab your lunch boxes, and make your family's voice heard loud and clear, that #FamiliesBelongTogether. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Jun 1 17:26:20 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 17:26:20 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: AWARE Demo. Saturday References: Message-ID: In response to Ann’s question on flyers. Usually they are created by Carl, and printed out by David Green, unless otherwise suggested. The focus is on our “foreign policy of war.” The racism which is related to our wars, primarily in the middle east since 9/11. Most Americans have no idea we are currently conducting eight wars, thus we’re left with little space to go into the history of US imperialism, though it is discussed frequently by Carl and David on the tv programs. A problem is, that we are provoking new wars with Iran, Russia and China. Given they are not small vulnerable nations, its a very dangerous situation. Getting all this info. into a one page flyer isn’t easy, but one Carl and David have managed to do very nicely over the years. Begin forwarded message: From: Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > Subject: My assumption is that we will be holding it per usual Saturday, downtown 2:00 - 4:00pm, whether there is something else or not. The “Mothers against Guns" are holding a memorial in Westlake Park, I believe it is, at 4:00 pm. So I see it as complimentary, and hope Aware people will attend that as well. Provided its not too hot. On Jun 1, 2018, at 09:06, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss > wrote: I assume we are demonstrating in downtown Champaign on Saturday at 2, yes. Has anyone heard of some goings-on that conflict with it? On 06/01/2018 10:51 AM, bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss wrote: Sorry to hitch onto this thread. Is AWARE holding regular Ist Saturday of month protest in downtown Champaign tomorrow, June 2? We discussed it at last Sundays AWARE meeting. Attendees were Don, Genevieve, Doug, Anne Bj. (Hope I have names and spelling correct!) Consensus on Sunday seemed to be yes. Question was- is there something else going on downtown that might interfere with protest? Also do we need a flyer? Suggestion on flyer: "Do All Lives Matter?" What about Native Americans? " Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------ From: Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss Date: Fri, Jun 1, 2018 6:42 AM To: Peace; Cc: Subject:[Peace-discuss] #FamiliesBelongTogether - ACLU rally noon *today* 6/1 at US Attorney's Office in Urbana #FamiliesBelongTogether Rally noon *today*, Friday 6/1 US Attorney's Office in Urbana 201 S Vine St, Suite 226 RSVP here: https://go.peoplepower.org/event/action_attend/14164 From ACLU People Power. They write: We need to raise our voices against the key actors who are carrying out Trump’s family separation order: ICE and U.S. Attorneys. ICE apprehends and separates families while US Attorneys enforce the separation in legal proceedings. We need to stand up against this incompetence and the moral abomination of family separation. We're excited to be partnering with the National Domestic Workers Alliance, MomsRising, United We Dream, MoveOn and many others to hold family-friendly rallies across the country. Bring your friends, wheel your stroller on over, grab your lunch boxes, and make your family's voice heard loud and clear, that #FamiliesBelongTogether. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Jun 1 19:07:22 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 19:07:22 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The NYT's and the murder that wasn't Message-ID: * Print * Leaflet * Feedback * Share » The New York Times and the murder that wasn’t By Andre Damon 1 June 2018 On Tuesday, the right-wing Ukrainian regime reported that Arkady Babchenko, a Russian journalist living in Kiev and a vocal critic of the Kremlin, had been shot dead in his apartment building. Kiev immediately pointed the finger at Moscow, with Ukrainian Prime Minister Volodymyr Hroysman declaring that “the Russian totalitarian machine” was responsible for the journalist’s murder. Within minutes, the news flashed across the globe, becoming a lead story in major news outlets in Europe and the United States, including the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Guardian and the BBC. The Mighty Wurlitzer of American propaganda began belching vast amounts of hot air. In every report, the announcement of the murder was accompanied with the conclusion that the Russian government was behind it: that is, the US media outlets announced a murder mystery and its solution simultaneously. The New York Times’ star reporter, Andrew Higgins, declared, “The killing of the journalist, Arkady Babchenko, a former war correspondent who stirred fury among Russian nationalists with his sharply critical coverage, is the latest in a series of attacks, many of them fatal, on outspoken foes of President Vladimir V. Putin, both inside Russia and beyond.” Higgins, who in 2014 was forced to retract a story featuring falsified photographs of Russian troops entering Ukrainian territory, placed the murder in a long list of alleged crimes by the Putin regime, including the poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal earlier this year, and the downing of flight MH17 over Ukraine in 2014. In their coverage, the Times and other major newspapers relied on a script they have used repeatedly: A prominent critic of the Kremlin dies or is injured abroad, and Moscow is immediately blamed. Any effort by Russia to deny these claims, or even to challenge the accusations, are treated as more evidence of a malevolent Kremlin plot. But at the height of the international furor over the murder, the unexpected took place: the corpse of Babchenko made a dramatic reappearance at a press conference called by the Ukrainian police, and the journalist announced that he had dramatically faked his own death. Looking back on the story, it would not have taken more than a careful examination of the photo of Babchenko’s corpse released by Kiev—which showed the journalist slumped over in a puddle of a liquid resembling ketchup—to know that something was amiss. But the American press responded to the resurrection of Babchenko by trying to find another way to incriminate the Kremlin. Typical was the editorial published by the New York Times Thursday, headlined, “Whatever It Was, We Didn’t Do It.” “After news came from Kiev on Tuesday that a Russian journalist critical of Vladimir Putin had been shot dead, it did not take long for the Kremlin’s denial machinery to shift into high gear,” the Times wrote, complaining that the Kremlin had the audacity to deny that it was complicit in a murder that never took place. In other words, the Times sought to shift the story to the Kremlin’s “denial machine,” instead of what the incident has exposed about the lies peddled by the Times. What really stands exposed is the propaganda machine operated by James Bennet, the editorial page editor of the Times, who manipulates the news in the service of the intelligence agencies to promote war abroad and political repression at home. For Bennet, when one lie is exposed, the time has come to reply with an even bigger lie. Every editorial published in the online edition of the New York Times includes a note that the editorial section “is separate from the newsroom and the Op-Ed section.” Nothing could be further from the truth: In fact, they are generally indistinguishable. The Times routinely places stories on its news page that consist entirely of unsubstantiated claims and speculation, which then becomes the basis for the editorials promoting war and domestic repression. For more than a year and a half, the US media has been engaged in a campaign against what they call “fake news” allegedly spread by Russia and its sympathizers. In the name of this campaign, the major media outlets, leading politicians, and the US intelligence agencies have justified the imposition of the most sweeping regime of internet censorship in US history, deleting thousands of social media accounts, silencing oppositional viewpoints, and burying left-wing news sites in search results. But the fraud of Arkady Babchenko’s murder has shown who the real purveyors of “fake news” are: not the oppositional news sites targeted for censorship, but the newsrooms of the mainstream press in New York, Washington and London. Andre Damon WSWS.ORG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 20:43:14 2018 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 15:43:14 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: AWARE Demo. Saturday In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a few of the more general half-page flyer, and many more of the Israel-Iran flyer, all of which I will bring; although I might prefer myself just to hold a sign tomorrow for most of the time. On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 12:26 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > In response to Ann’s question on flyers. > > Usually they are created by Carl, and printed out by David Green, unless > otherwise suggested. > > The focus is on our “foreign policy of war.” The racism which is related > to our wars, primarily in the middle east since 9/11. > > Most Americans have no idea we are currently conducting eight wars, thus > we’re left with little space to go into the history of US imperialism, > though it is discussed frequently by Carl and David on the tv programs. > > A problem is, that we are provoking new wars with Iran, Russia and China. > Given they are not small vulnerable nations, its a very dangerous > situation. Getting all this info. into a one page flyer isn’t easy, but one > Carl and David have managed to do very nicely over the years. > > Begin forwarded message: > > *From: *Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > *Subject: * > > My assumption is that we will be holding it per usual Saturday, downtown > 2:00 - 4:00pm, whether there is something else or not. > > The “Mothers against Guns" are holding a memorial in Westlake Park, I > believe it is, at 4:00 pm. So I see it as complimentary, and hope Aware > people will attend that as well. Provided its not too hot. > > > On Jun 1, 2018, at 09:06, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > I assume we are demonstrating in downtown Champaign on Saturday at 2, > yes. Has anyone heard of some goings-on that conflict with it? > > On 06/01/2018 10:51 AM, bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Sorry to hitch onto this thread. Is AWARE holding regular Ist Saturday of > month protest in downtown Champaign tomorrow, June 2? We discussed it at > last Sundays AWARE meeting. Attendees were Don, Genevieve, Doug, Anne Bj. > (Hope I have names and spelling correct!) Consensus on Sunday seemed to be > yes. Question was- is there something else going on downtown that might > interfere with protest? Also do we need a flyer? > Suggestion on flyer: > "Do All Lives Matter?" What about Native Americans? " > > *Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone* > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss > *Date: *Fri, Jun 1, 2018 6:42 AM > *To: *Peace; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[Peace-discuss] #FamiliesBelongTogether - ACLU rally noon > *today* 6/1 at US Attorney's Office in Urbana > > #FamiliesBelongTogether > > Rally noon *today*, Friday 6/1 > US Attorney's Office in Urbana > 201 S Vine St, Suite 226 > > RSVP here: > https://go.peoplepower.org/event/action_attend/14164 > > From ACLU People Power. They write: > > We need to raise our voices against the key actors who are carrying out > Trump’s family separation order: ICE and U.S. Attorneys. ICE apprehends and > separates families while US Attorneys enforce the separation in legal > proceedings. We need to stand up against this incompetence and the moral > abomination of family separation. > > We're excited to be partnering with the National Domestic Workers > Alliance, MomsRising, United We Dream, MoveOn and many others to hold > family-friendly rallies across the country. Bring your friends, wheel your > stroller on over, grab your lunch boxes, and make your family's voice heard > loud and clear, that #FamiliesBelongTogether. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing listPeace-discuss at lists.chambana.nethttps://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 20:45:00 2018 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 15:45:00 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: A very long read on Russia US relations In-Reply-To: <47699EF6-E841-4B13-AEF1-95D6036D51B6@gmail.com> References: <9763B8A4-1D55-4DB0-9CD3-CC601373BC49@illinois.edu> <47699EF6-E841-4B13-AEF1-95D6036D51B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: Just to read the author's background, one would assume it's going to be more of an insider/realist analysis, not going beyond the limits of allowable debate. On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 9:18 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > Exactly. > > On May 31, 2018, at 9:13 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > Plenty of useful and interesting facts are presented in ths article, but > largely misses the point of the feral antagonism towards Russia and Putin > by U.S. politicians, academics and media, namely that Russia is a > (potential) global competitor for influence, ideas, resources, and power, > something which cannot be countenanced (by our corporate dominated > militarized state). > > On May 31, 2018, at 5:02 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > > http://npetro.net/resources/Petro-FF+Spring+2018.pdf] > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Jun 1 20:51:50 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 20:51:50 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: AWARE Demo. Saturday In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Understood, sounds good. On Jun 1, 2018, at 13:43, David Green > wrote: I have a few of the more general half-page flyer, and many more of the Israel-Iran flyer, all of which I will bring; although I might prefer myself just to hold a sign tomorrow for most of the time. On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 12:26 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: In response to Ann’s question on flyers. Usually they are created by Carl, and printed out by David Green, unless otherwise suggested. The focus is on our “foreign policy of war.” The racism which is related to our wars, primarily in the middle east since 9/11. Most Americans have no idea we are currently conducting eight wars, thus we’re left with little space to go into the history of US imperialism, though it is discussed frequently by Carl and David on the tv programs. A problem is, that we are provoking new wars with Iran, Russia and China. Given they are not small vulnerable nations, its a very dangerous situation. Getting all this info. into a one page flyer isn’t easy, but one Carl and David have managed to do very nicely over the years. Begin forwarded message: From: Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > Subject: My assumption is that we will be holding it per usual Saturday, downtown 2:00 - 4:00pm, whether there is something else or not. The “Mothers against Guns" are holding a memorial in Westlake Park, I believe it is, at 4:00 pm. So I see it as complimentary, and hope Aware people will attend that as well. Provided its not too hot. On Jun 1, 2018, at 09:06, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss > wrote: I assume we are demonstrating in downtown Champaign on Saturday at 2, yes. Has anyone heard of some goings-on that conflict with it? On 06/01/2018 10:51 AM, bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss wrote: Sorry to hitch onto this thread. Is AWARE holding regular Ist Saturday of month protest in downtown Champaign tomorrow, June 2? We discussed it at last Sundays AWARE meeting. Attendees were Don, Genevieve, Doug, Anne Bj. (Hope I have names and spelling correct!) Consensus on Sunday seemed to be yes. Question was- is there something else going on downtown that might interfere with protest? Also do we need a flyer? Suggestion on flyer: "Do All Lives Matter?" What about Native Americans? " Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------ From: Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss Date: Fri, Jun 1, 2018 6:42 AM To: Peace; Cc: Subject:[Peace-discuss] #FamiliesBelongTogether - ACLU rally noon *today* 6/1 at US Attorney's Office in Urbana #FamiliesBelongTogether Rally noon *today*, Friday 6/1 US Attorney's Office in Urbana 201 S Vine St, Suite 226 RSVP here: https://go.peoplepower.org/event/action_attend/14164 From ACLU People Power. They write: We need to raise our voices against the key actors who are carrying out Trump’s family separation order: ICE and U.S. Attorneys. ICE apprehends and separates families while US Attorneys enforce the separation in legal proceedings. We need to stand up against this incompetence and the moral abomination of family separation. We're excited to be partnering with the National Domestic Workers Alliance, MomsRising, United We Dream, MoveOn and many others to hold family-friendly rallies across the country. Bring your friends, wheel your stroller on over, grab your lunch boxes, and make your family's voice heard loud and clear, that #FamiliesBelongTogether. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Jun 1 21:12:44 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 21:12:44 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: A very long read on Russia US relations In-Reply-To: References: <9763B8A4-1D55-4DB0-9CD3-CC601373BC49@illinois.edu> <47699EF6-E841-4B13-AEF1-95D6036D51B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: This article came from Raymond Smith, retired Political Officer of the US State Dept., he did two tours in the former Soviet Union, one in the late 70’s and another in the eighty’s. A friend from my past. I first saw an article by Ray posted here by Mort, a couple years ago related to Russia/US relations. Found him on FB, and noted he frequently attempts to convince his friends, former colleagues, at State of the mistakes the US is making in respect to Russia. He is also the person who knew Kargalitsky. I never expect anything from him that would be too radical by US State Dept. terms, because these people fear loss of pension if they step out of line, not to mention condemnation from former colleagues, and we know how things work in academia if one steps out of line, but it does show that there are those scholars who are “irritated” over US propaganda in relation to Russia. Like Ray, they try but not enough from my perspective. On Jun 1, 2018, at 13:45, David Green > wrote: Just to read the author's background, one would assume it's going to be more of an insider/realist analysis, not going beyond the limits of allowable debate. On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 9:18 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: Exactly. On May 31, 2018, at 9:13 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss > wrote: Plenty of useful and interesting facts are presented in ths article, but largely misses the point of the feral antagonism towards Russia and Putin by U.S. politicians, academics and media, namely that Russia is a (potential) global competitor for influence, ideas, resources, and power, something which cannot be countenanced (by our corporate dominated militarized state). On May 31, 2018, at 5:02 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: http://npetro.net/resources/Petro-FF+Spring+2018.pdf] _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Jun 1 22:06:51 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 22:06:51 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: Poland's US Military Base is More About China Than Russia References: <000000000000a0aa53056d9baa7f@google.com> Message-ID: I never would have thought it, but of course it makes sense, all roads or actions by the US one way or another leads to China, and that includes by way of Russia. From: "OrientalReview.org" > Subject: Oriental Review Date: June 1, 2018 at 14:57:13 PDT Oriental Review ________________________________ Poland’s US Military Base Is More About China Than Russia Posted: 01 Jun 2018 05:52 AM PDT Assessing the grand strategic implications if a US base in Poland leads to Washington accepting the Chinese-built Balkan Silk Road’s possible expansion to Warsaw one day, this would clearly result in serious long-term losses for Germany and Russia while being a major victory for the US and China. The post Poland’s US Military Base Is More About China Than Russia appeared first on OrientalReview.org. This posting includes an audio/video/photo media file: Download Now You are subscribed to email updates from OrientalReview.org. To stop receiving these emails, you may unsubscribe now. Email delivery powered by Google Google, 1600 Amphitheatre Parkway, Mountain View, CA 94043, United States -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 2 13:44:30 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 13:44:30 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Google Is Said to Not Renew Pentagon Contract That Upset Employees v. Illiniwaks Killer Koh College of Law Faculty Message-ID: “…particularly to the drone assassinations, “the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times” - which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children.” Chomsky {now 10,000+ people} Google’s work with the Defense Department on the Maven program, which uses artificial intelligence to interpret video images and could be used to improve the targeting of drone strikes, roiled the internet giant’s work force. Yeah, notice these 4000+ GooglePeople are certainly far more principled and intelligent than the entire Faculty of the Illiniwaks Killer Koh College of Law put together-- but one: Don’t be evil! Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) Feed: NYT > Business Day Posted on: Friday, June 01, 2018 2:49 PM Author: DAISUKE WAKABAYASHI Subject: Google Is Said to Not Renew Pentagon Contract That Upset Employees After employees protested, a Google executive said Friday that the company will not renew a contract to work on artificial intelligence with the Pentagon after it expires next year.Diane Greene, the head of Google’s Cloud business, is said to have told employees that it was backing away from the A.I. work with the military. View article... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 2 16:45:05 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 16:45:05 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: NYT: Murdering Marty Lederman for Trump! Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2018 11:44 AM To: sectns.aals at lists.aals.org Subject: NYT: Murdering Marty Lederman for Trump! "... {Murdering} Martin Lederman {Obomber OLC}...praised {Trumpster OLC} Mr. Engel for emphasizing assessments that the {Syrian} airstrikes were unlikely to escalate into a broader conflict..." LOL on that! For as long as I have known them and dealt with them and refuted them, OLCs-both Democrats and Republicans-- are just a Gang of presidential boot-lickers and butt-kissers. I do not understand how any self-respecting lawyer can go work for OLC. But OLC presidential boot-licking and butt-kissing can get you onto the Ninth Circuit ( Bybee) and the First Circuit (Davey Baron) the most distinguished chair at Berkeley Law (Yoo) and the Deanship of Yale Law School (Killer Koh, whose poo is John Yoo). Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 11:25:21 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 11:25:21 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Paul Street puts it all in perspective, from Truthdig Message-ID: It’s “socialism or barbarism.” So wrote the brilliant German Marxist revolutionary Rosa Luxemburg in 1915. The 20th and 21st centuries have borne her out. The list of barbarian horrors that have disfigured the human record under the class rule of capital across the last century is daunting indeed. Now, however, we have to say that Luxemburg put things too gently. Marx and Engels got closer to our contemporary reality in 1848. They wrote in “The Communist Manifesto” about how the long-standing class struggle between producers and appropriators always ends “either in a revolutionary reconstitution of society at large, or in the common ruin of the contending classes.” It’s socialism or barbarism if we’re lucky. To be more precise, its eco-socialism or annihilation as capital turns the planet into a giant greenhouse gas chamber. The earth science is perfectly clear. The “common ruin” of all is precisely where humanity is headed after half a millennium under the rule of a system that relies on permanent unsustainable expansion to avert collapse. “The rich,” the French ecological writer Herve Kempf observed 11 years ago, “are destroying the Earth.” Well, not the earth itself, just the chances for a decent and organized human future. The 21st-century global bourgeoisie isn’t doing this because it is loaded with malevolent ecological Scrooges who need to be visited by ghosts of the environmental Christmas past, present and future. Capitalists are driven to pillage and poison and rape the common good, including the ecological commons, by systemic imperatives compelling them to relentlessly commodify everything under the sun and to drive infinite growth on a finite planet. ADVERTISEMENT [201806 GoFundMe Week4 300x250] For Marx, and I think for any authentic left today, the moral predisposition of bourgeois “elites” was and is of little concern. It’s not about speaking truth to wealth and power. Beseeching our capitalist masters to be nicer and smarter for the common good of all is a fool’s errand. We’re not trying to write a Charles Dickens novel in which rich Mr. Brownlow saves the day for poor Oliver Twist or the bad capitalist Scrooge becomes the good capitalist Scrooge. We know there’s no appealing to capitalist chieftains’ better angels where money and profit are concerned. Real leftists know that five people owning as much wealth as the bottom half of the species while millions starve and lack adequate health care and half the U.S. population is poor or near-poor is capitalism working. We know that giant corporations buying up every last family farm, tapping every new reserve of cheap global labor, raping the Congo’s raw materials in alliance with warlords, purchasing the votes of nearly every elected official, extracting every last fossil fuel and driving the planet past the limits of environmental sustainability is capitalism working. We know that a giant military-industrial complex, generating vast fortunes for the owners and managers of high-tech “defense” (war and empire) firms while schools and public parks and infrastructure and social safety nets are underfunded—we know that that too is capitalism working. I could go on. The only solution, a real left would know, along with Marx, is for workers and citizens to organize collectively to overthrow the amoral profits system and take control of what they produce and how society is organized. Power to the people. Power to the workers. And power to the commons, whose enclosure was and remains among other things the making of modern capitalism and its wage-enslaved working class. That is what I have always understood to be the basic irreducible bottom-line perspective of anything that deserves since the time of Marx to be called “the left.” I’m always amused when I hear mainstream U.S. media reporters, talking heads or pundits refer to “the left” in statements like “the left won’t like Trump’s tax plan” or “the left is gearing up for the 2018 midterms.” What left are they talking about? In the reigning U.S. media-politics culture, “the left” refers first and foremost to the Democratic Party and its many allies at places like The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, CBS, MSNBC, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Brookings Institution, the Center for American Progress, most of academia and a host of other elite sectors and actors. But for anyone who knows anything about the history and meaning of radical movements, calling the dismal dollar-drenched Democrats and their many media allies “the left” is like calling the National Pork Producers Association vegan. As the multimillionaire House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) told a young CNN town hall questioner last year, “We’re capitalist and that’s just the way it is.” The Robert Rubin-approved and Goldman Sachs- and Citigroup-backed presidential candidate Barack Obama wrote and spoke with gushing praise for the lords of capital and their supposedly glorious profits system, which he called the source of a “prosperity that’s unmatched in human history.” His policy record as a militantly pro-Wall Street and arch-neoliberal president consistently matched his words. He did more for the nation’s leading financial institutions and corporations than any Republican president could have in the wake of the Great Recession, caused by concentrated wealth. And he was proud of it. “People call me a socialist sometimes,” Obama toldsome top corporate executives at The Wall Street Journal CEO Council with a laugh in late 2013. “But no,” the arch-neoliberal president, TransPacific Partnership advocate and drone war champion said, eliciting chuckles from his ruling-class friends, “you’ve got to meet the real socialists. You’ll have a sense of what a socialist is. I’m talking about lowering the corporate tax rate. My health care reform is based on the private marketplace.” The CEOs in attendance got a big chuckle out of what CounterPunch called that “tender ruling class moment.” “Socialists”? The “lying neoliberal warmonger” and arch-corporatist Hillary Clinton recently added those nasty socialists in the Democratic Party to the list of people other than herself and her Wall Street bankrollers that she blames for her defeat in 2016. If socialists in the Iowa Democratic caucuses had properly understood and respected her commitment to what top Democrats oxymoronically called “inclusive capitalism,” Hillary thinks, Trump would not be president. Leftish liberals call for the supposed “party of the people” to abandon its “corporate and cultural elitism” and “return” to its purported grand mission of “fighting for social justice and ensuring that workers get a fair deal.” When, the plaintive progressive cry goes, will they learn how to win? But for the dismal Dems it isn’t about winning; it’s about serving corporate masters. As William Kaufman told Barbara Ehrenreich on Facebook last year, “The Democrats aren’t feckless, inept, or stupid, unable to ‘learn’ what it takes to win. They are corrupt. They do not want to win with an authentically progressive program because it would threaten the economic interests of their main corporate donor base. … The Democrats know exactly what they’re doing. They have a business model: sub-serving the interests of the corporate elite.” The reigning corporate Democrats would rather lose to the right, even to a proto-fascistic white nationalist and eco-apocalyptic right, than lose to the left, even to a mildly progressive social democratic left within their own party. So what if Bernie Sanders, running (imagine!) in accord with majority progressive opinion would have been considerably more likely to defeat Trump than the incredibly unpopular and transparently elitist Hillary Clinton in the general election in 2016? The Democrats preferred handing the presidency and Congress to the Insane Clown President and the ever more radical right over letting a leftish neo-New Dealer into the White House. That was the “Inauthentic Opposition”—as the late Sheldon Wolin called the Democrats in 2008—doing its job. Among other things, Russiagate is the Inauthentic Opposition following its business model and doing its job, working to cover its tracks by throwing the debacle of its corporatist politics down George Orwell’s memory hole and attributing their largely self-made defeat to Russia’s allegedly powerful interference in our supposed democracy. Russiagate is meant to provide corporate Democrats cover not only for 2016 but also for 2018 and 2020. It is meant to create a narrative that lets the Fake Resistance Party continue nominating corporate captive neoliberal shills and imperialists who pretend to be progressive while they are owned by the nation’s own homegrown oligarchs, the real masters of America’s oxymoronic “capitalist democracy.” This year’s crop of Democratic congressional candidates is disturbingly loaded with military and intelligence veterans, a reflection of the Democrats’ determination to run as the true party of empire. As Jeremy Kuzmarov and John Marciano write in their book “The Russians are Coming, Again,” “The scapegoat of Russia functions as a distraction for a ruling class that has lost its legitimacy.” What is the Democrats’ leading cry? That the terrible Trump is truly terrible. And, of course, that is all too terribly true. But after you’ve bemoaned the terribleness of the beastly, orange-tinted Trump for the 10,000th time, are you ready to get serious about the systemic and richly bipartisan, oligarchic context within which he has emerged? “The Trump administration,” my fellow Truthdigger Chris Hedges reminds us: “did not rise … like Venus on a half shell from the sea. Donald Trump is the result of a long process of political, cultural and social decay. He is a product of our failed democracy. The longer we perpetuate the fiction that we live in a functioning democracy, that Trump and the political mutations around him are somehow an aberrant deviation that can be vanquished in the next election, the more we will hurtle toward tyranny. The problem is not Trump. It is a political system, dominated by corporate power and the mandarins of the two major political parties, in which we don’t count.” Corporate Democrats could well re-elect Trump in 2020. The smart money now is on their running the tepid neoliberal centrist Kamala Harris. Part of what could make her irresistible to the corporate and professional-class know-it-alls atop the party is that she would be a “progressive neoliberal”-bourgeois identity politics double whammy when it comes to keeping their own party’s portside wing at bay. With Obama as their standard bearer, the corporate-war Democrats got to call their progressive critics racists. With Hillary as their candidate, the corporate-war Democrats got to call their progressive critics sexists. With Kamala Harris atop the ticket they could call their disobedient left racists and sexists if progressives dare to publicly notice her captivity to Wall Street, Silicon Valley, the Council on Foreign Relations and the military-industrial complex. Not that Sanders, who was the Democrats’ best chance to defeat Trump, is all that “left.” Bernie “F-35” Sanders’ occasional and carefully hedged claims to be a “democratic socialist” were contradicted by his dutiful if quiet embrace of the mass-murderous U.S. military empire. It takes real chutzpah to repeatedly mention Scandinavia as his social-democratic role model without once noting that Sweden, Denmark and Norway spend comparatively tiny percentages of their national budgets on militarism. Failure to tackle the giant U.S. war budget (a vast mechanism of upward wealth transfer) means that you can’t pay for poverty-ending progressive transformation at home. Sanders has never seriously criticized capitalism, the profits system or modern class rule. He has never questioned the underlying and foundational institutional despotism of capital over labor and the commons that makes a mockery of the West’s democratic pretense while placing human life itself at grave peril. Along the way, Sanders has sustained progressives’ deadly attachment to the nation’s narrow and strictly time-staggered election- and candidate-centered politics. “The really critical thing,” the great American radical historian Howard Zinn once sagely wrote, “isn’t who’s sitting in the White House, but who is sitting in—in the streets, in the cafeterias, in the halls of government, in the factories. Who is protesting, who is occupying offices and demonstrating—those are the things that determine what happens.” “The only thing that’s going to ever bring about any meaningful change,” Noam Chomsky told Abby Martin in the fall of 2015, “is ongoing, dedicated, popular movements that don’t pay attention to the election cycle.” Sanders was and remains about the masters’ election cycle, which is dedicated to the delusional notion that we the people get meaningful democratic input into policy by spending three minutes in a voting booth choosing from among a handful of candidates selected in advance for us by the nation’s unelected dictatorship of money once every two years. The Democrats know that lots of citizens think like Zinn. That’s why they set up Astroturf outfits like Indivisible and Move On and the Town Hall Project. These fake resistance groups masquerade as extra-electoral grass-roots movements, but they’re all about channeling everything into a big get-out-the-vote campaign for candidates affiliated with the not-so-left-most of the two reigning corporate parties. A number of Sanders supporters have migrated into DSA, the Democratic Socialists of America, whose popular online “Thanks Capitalism” video defines “socialism” as little more than collective bargaining and civil rights. It says nothing about capitalism’s destruction of livable ecology or about its evil twin, imperialism, whose vast military budgets cancels out social democracy in the “homeland.” The video says nothing about Marx’s and other authentic leftists’ long-standing understanding of socialism as workers’ control. A panoply of outwardly and sometimes substantively progressive advocacy, policy and service organizations can be found across the U.S. But as Les Leopold has noted, they are badly crippled by single-issue-ism, related to do their budgetary dependence on private foundations. “For the last generation,” Leopold wrote last year, “progressives have organized themselves into issue silos, each with its own agenda. Survival depends on fundraising (largely from private foundations) based on the uniqueness of one’s own silo. The net result of this Darwinian struggle is a fractured landscape of activity. The creativity, talent and skill are there in abundance, but the coherence and common purpose among groups is not.” There are multi-issue nonpartisan progressive policy, lobbying and protest groups in the Citizen Action tradition across the nation. Their 501c3 (nonprofit) status prevents them from openly identifying as Democratic Party-affiliated groups, but that is what they are. Real authentic root-and-branch radicals who want to keep their jobs know to tread carefully and watch their backs when they work in the “progressive” nonprofit sector. It’s the same in “higher education” and the so-called labor movement. There are a number of groups that call themselves Marxist in the U.S.—an alphabet soup whose various names and sectarian tendencies can be reviewed on Wikipedia. None of them have anything close to a large membership. Many of them spend more time tearing each other apart in sectarian squabbling than in organizing or inspiring anyone to fight the many manifest evils of capital. Left anarchism seems as fragmented, marginal and sectarian as the Marxist left. We’ve seen hopeful seeds of rank-and-file people’s organizing over the years with developments like the Wisconsin Rebellion before it was electorally co-opted, Occupy, the Fight for $15, the Chicago and subsequent statewide teacher strikes, the Verizon strike, rebellions and the movement against racist police killings—a movement bigger than just the Ford Foundation-funded and Borealis Foundation-coordinated Black Lives Matter brand. There’s been the Malcom X Grassroots Movement, We Charge Genocide, the remarkable Standing Rock moment, the broader struggle against the Dakota Access pipeline, the successful struggle against the Trans-Pacific Partnership, and the remarkable alternative economy political developments led by black radicals in Jackson, Miss., something that strikes me as the most potentially radical and remarkable development of all so far. Now we have the Poor People’s Campaign, just underway, under the leadership of the Rev. William Barber, who has criticized U.S. militarism and kept Democratic Party politicos off his speaking platforms. Perhaps the PPC can develop in ways that will help us build an authentic radical left—not just another leftish moment that gets folded into a Get Out the Vote for Democrats campaign. To do so, it will need to open its platforms to serious left anti-capitalists. It will have to step further away from the not-so left-most party of capital, the Democrats. It will need to speak less in terms of the immorality of poverty and more in terms of how poverty is rooted in the profits system of class rule and the racism and imperialism that go with capitalism “like white on rice.” “For whatever reason,” a PPC supporter writes me from Pennsylvania, the campaign is “unwilling or unable to name the disease, capitalism. In the absence of this diagnosis,” he says, “I worry that the PPC might be nothing more than a sheepdog for the Democrats in 2018.” For now—and this must change—“the [U.S.] left” is still far too scattered, excessively siloed, overdependent on corporate foundations, overly identity-politicized, excessively episodic, excessively metropolitan and bicoastal, excessively professional and middle-class, insufficiently radical, insufficiently working-class, insufficiently anti-capitalist and insufficiently distanced from the dismal, demobilizing, depressing and dollar-drenched Democratic Party. Noam Chomsky’s judgment five years ago remains all too accurate today: “There is no real left now” in the United States, Chomsky told David Barsamian. “If you are just counting heads,” Chomsky elaborated, “there are probably more people involved than in the 1960s, but they … don’t coalesce into a movement that can really do things. We’re not supposed to say it,” he continued, “but the Communist Party was an organized and persistent element. It didn’t show up for a demonstration and then scatter so somebody else had to start something new. It was always there and it was there for the long haul. … That mentality is basically missing [now]. And it was during the 1960s, too,” Chomsky said. The absence of a real, dedicated, persistent and serious, adult left is profoundly dangerous. People who are getting shafted and who know it are going to get behind militant and angry politicos seeking to channel their understandable rage. If there’s no effective, durable, organized, intelligent and durable through-thick-and-thin anti-capitalist left around, the job of channeling that popular anger falls by default to the white nationalist racist, nativist and sexist right—the Hitlers, Goebbels, Marine Le Pens, Geert Wilders, Matteo Salivinis, Nigel Farages, David Dukes, Steve Kings, Donald Trumps and Steve Bannons of the world. Resentment abhors a vacuum. At the same time, without a functioning left able to fight and do things for ordinary working and poor people, we will have nothing to defend and sustain our households, families and communities when the next big capitalist meltdown comes—an event that is due in the very near future. Before the coming collapse, Hedges tell us, “We must invest our energy in building parallel, popular institutions to protect ourselves and to pit power against power. These parallel institutions, including unions, community development organizations, local currencies, alternative political parties and food cooperatives, will have to be constructed town by town.” Hedges’ list of institutions for parallel people’s power should be expanded to cooperative production, under the participatory and self-managed ownership, control and design of the “associated producers” themselves in harmony rather than at war with the natural environment. It’s no small matter, given what we know now to be the essentially ecocidal nature of modern capitalism. “If there is not future for a radical mass movement in our time,” Istvan Meszaros rightly argued 15 years ago, “there can be no future for humanity itself.” Truthdig is running a reader-funded project to document the Poor People’s Campaign. Please help us by making a donation. Paul Street Contributor Paul Street holds a doctorate in U.S. history from Binghamton University. He is former vice president for research and planning of the Chicago Urban League. Street is also the author of numerous books,… [Paul Street] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 17:16:05 2018 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 12:16:05 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Michael Hudson excerpt Message-ID: I don’t think people realize the radical damage that Obama did to the economy by bailing out the banks and not rolling back the terms of bank credit to keep housing affordable. Obama basically said, “Make housing unaffordable. Make as many junk loans as you want. Don’t worry, because I’ll stand between you and the mob with the pitchforks.” He didn’t jail any bankers. He didn’t regulate them. He created the situation that Trump inherited. Trump has just pushed it to a further degree, with full Democratic support. The Democratic donor class loves Trump. They want him to be reelected because he’s cutting their taxes, he’s deregulating their banks, and he’s essentially deregulated fraud! This leaves the millennials with a problem. How can they cope with a situation where they don’t have anyone representing their interests either in Congress where it’s really the same party now, or with an opportunity to earn enough to get a home mortgage? It’s very hard to earn the money that you need to buy a house anymore. There has to be a god in a machine – *Deus Ex Machina* – meaning rich parents or a rich uncle. *Paul Sliker: So maybe a better investment for millennials would be to organize outside the banks.* Michael Hudson: Well, here’s the other problem: Congress last week deregulated community banks. I’ve worked as a consultant for community banks in Chicago. Their strategy is to make more reckless loans than the commercial banks. So deregulating them enables them to lend at even higher debt to equity ratios. They can set lower down payments, and help bid up the price of real estate even more. So the congressional rewriting of bank regulations last week makes it much harder for millennials to get an apartment, because it will inflate the price of housing with yet more bank credit. https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/06/01/us-vs-china-housing-and-those-millennials/print/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sun Jun 3 18:24:42 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 18:24:42 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: Francis Boyle sent you a video: "INCOMING: Targeted For Destruction - Prof. Boyle Tells It Like It Is" In-Reply-To: <000000000000299d3a056dc0e26d@google.com> References: <000000000000299d3a056dc0e26d@google.com> Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Francis Boyle via YouTube [mailto:noreply at youtube.com] Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2018 1:21 PM To: Boyle, Francis A Subject: Francis Boyle sent you a video: "INCOMING: Targeted For Destruction - Prof. Boyle Tells It Like It Is" [https://www.gstatic.com/youtube/img/branding/youtubelogo/2x/youtubelogo_60.png] [https://yt3.ggpht.com/-w4phvYGWivc/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAAAA/_Vq2X19VNEk/s50-c-k-no-mo-rj-c0xffffff/photo.jpg] Francis Boyle has shared a video with you on YouTube [https://i.ytimg.com/vi/diMU7f_RaVI/mqdefault.jpg] INCOMING: Targeted For Destruction - Prof. Boyle Tells It Like It Is by Clean Lens Videos Dr. Francis A Boyle, Professor of International Law, explains the ways that pro-Israel lobbies and academics use blacklisting and claims of"anti-Semitism" to keep legitimate criticism of Israel out of the news and out of most colleges. Help center • Report spam ©2018 YouTube, LLC 901 Cherry Ave, San Bruno, CA 94066, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ewj at pigs.ag Sun Jun 3 23:15:36 2018 From: ewj at pigs.ag (ewj) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2018 07:15:36 +0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Michael Hudson excerpt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1528067735090.nwddetjglja1evpefukw1v0i@android.mail.163.com> ah the compulsion to buy a place to live. the lie of the joy of home ownership. On 2018-06-04 01:16 , David Green via Peace-discuss Wrote: I don’t think people realize the radical damage that Obama did to the economy by bailing out the banks and not rolling back the terms of bank credit to keep housing affordable. Obama basically said, “Make housing unaffordable. Make as many junk loans as you want. Don’t worry, because I’ll stand between you and the mob with the pitchforks.” He didn’t jail any bankers. He didn’t regulate them. He created the situation that Trump inherited. Trump has just pushed it to a further degree, with full Democratic support. The Democratic donor class loves Trump. They want him to be reelected because he’s cutting their taxes, he’s deregulating their banks, and he’s essentially deregulated fraud! This leaves the millennials with a problem. How can they cope with a situation where they don’t have anyone representing their interests either in Congress where it’s really the same party now, or with an opportunity to earn enough to get a home mortgage? It’s very hard  to earn the money that you need to buy a house anymore. There has to be a god in a machine – Deus Ex Machina – meaning rich parents or a rich uncle. Paul Sliker: So maybe a better investment for millennials would be to organize outside the banks. Michael Hudson: Well, here’s the other problem: Congress last week deregulated community banks. I’ve worked as a consultant for community banks in Chicago. Their strategy is to make more reckless loans than the commercial banks. So deregulating them enables them to lend at even higher debt to equity ratios. They can set lower down payments, and help bid up the price of real estate even more. So the congressional rewriting of bank regulations last week makes it much harder for millennials to get an apartment, because it will inflate the price of housing with yet more bank credit. https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/06/01/us-vs-china-housing-and-those-millennials/print/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Mon Jun 4 02:57:55 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 20:57:55 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Pepe is correct & Bannon mostly so Message-ID: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156331653311678&set=a.10150294029661678.381794.775051677&type=3&theater ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME – AGAIN Steve Bannon is absolutely bonkers with what’s goin’ on in Italy. La Repubblica calls him “the Dark Knight of global populism”. He talked to the paper (portal). Here’s the low down. For Bannon, “Rome is now at the center of world politics” (correct). He has “advised” La Lega’s Salvini, and said they paid due attention. He’s enthusiastic that Lega and 5S “hit the heart of the European beast” (correct), foreign capitals and “foreign opposition media” (FT, Le Monde, etc.). He considers Salvini and Di Maio “heroic” – and the other hero is Berlusconi (not really). On 5S, he says they are “similar to socialist Sanders in the US”, anti-establishment and for transparency. And are allies to Italy’s “Trump” – referring to Salvini. He’s sure “Brussels, the stock market and the financial powers will go through hell” (correct). For Bannon, Italy is “a sleeping giant, with a huge economy” (correct). Brussels and media like the FT are “afraid of Italy” (true – the FT even invoked “barbarians”). He expects a “confederation of free states” to emerge in place of the current EU (not so fast). “The fascists are in Brussels” (relatively correct). And “we are on the right side of history; Merkel and Macron will fall” (not so fast). Trump is “back to his national-populist agenda” and “things could not be better for the US” (incorrect). Especially now that “the military have been sidelined from the administration” (but not the deep state – on the contrary). He thinks Pompeo could become President one day (Lord have mercy). Bannon thinks the Judeo-Christian West must be united – thus no Russia demonization. He stresses Russia’s economy is smaller than Italy’s (correct). “The problem is Russia is hated by the Democrats because is a nationalist country and they have the Orthodox Church (fundamentally correct). “The real problem is Iran” (ridiculous). Well, as you can see the man IS on a roll. ### -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Mon Jun 4 13:21:48 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 07:21:48 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] A 'doubtless very different' revolution Message-ID: <3B7C3F61-C2B8-4FB5-B58F-C8F27549FD4D@illinois.edu> “It is always dangerous to draw too precise parallels between one historical period and another; and among the most misleading of such parallels are those which have been drawn between our own age in Europe and North America and the epoch in which the Roman Empire declined into the Dark Ages. None the less certain parallels there are. A crucial turning point in that earlier history occurred when men and women of good will turned aside from the task of shoring up the Roman imperium and ceased to identify the continuation of civility and moral community with the maintenance of that imperium. What they set themselves to achieve instead—often not recognising fully what they were doing—was the construction of new forms of community within which the moral life could be sustained so that both morality and civility might survive the coming ages of barbarism and darkness. If my account of our moral condition is correct [one characterized by moral incoherence and unsettlable moral disputes in the modern world], we ought to conclude that for some time now we too have reached that turning point. What matters at this stage is the construction of local forms of community within which civility and the intellectual and moral life can be sustained through the new dark ages which are already upon us. And if the tradition of the virtues was able to survive the horrors of the last dark ages, we are not entirely without grounds for hope. This time however the barbarians are not waiting beyond the frontiers; they have already been governing us for quite some time. And it is our lack of consciousness of this that constitutes part of our predicament. We are waiting not for a Godot, but for another—doubtless very different—St. Benedict.” – Alasdair MacIntyre, in 'After Virtue,' thirty-five years ago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Mon Jun 4 13:42:10 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 13:42:10 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Max Blumenthal Reveals Surveillance Program in Yemen Message-ID: Max Blumenthal Reveals Surveillance Program in Yemen Run by Cambridge Analytica Parent Company SCL Group June 1, 2018 BEN NORTON: It’s The Real News. I’m Ben Norton. An explosive new investigative report by the journalist Max Blumenthal exposes how Cambridge Analytica’s parent company SCL Group ran a counterinsurgency program in Yemen on behalf of a U.S.-based military contractor. Cambridge Analytica was a political data company that dissolved this year after it was exposed that the firm had been hired by the Donald Trump campaign to manipulate the 2016 presidential election. Blumenthal obtained exclusive documents revealing that Cambridge Analytica’s parent company, which is called SCL Group, honed the deceptive tactics that it later used in the 2016 U.S. election first in Yemen, as part of a secret surveillance operation called Project Titania. Max published these leaked documents at his independent investigative journalism website The Grayzone Project, which you can find at GrayzoneProject.com. The surveillance operation run by SCL involved infiltrating local groups and spying on the domestic population using deliberately deceptive tactics. The operatives were instructed to use a, quote, “cover story,” unquote, to gather information. The foreign operatives in Yemen were also told to communicate with the British Embassy and register with the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office, which suggests that the UK government contracted SCL for the surveillance work. The documents furthermore show how SCL exploited local NGOs inside Yemen as part of its surveillant operation. An anonymous source also explained to Max how SCL tried to recruit them to pose as a journalist to infiltrate Iran, another country in the Middle East, in order to spy on the country and collect data. SCL Group specialize in what it openly called, quote, “psychological warfare,” end quote, influence operations, and did contract work with the UK government. Joining us to discuss this is Max Blumenthal. Max is an award-winning investigative journalist and the author of several books. He is also the editor of the independent news website The Grayzone Project. Max published his new report in two parts. You can find both at GrayzoneProject.com. With Max I also cohost the podcast Moderate Rebels, and I contribute to his website The Grayzone Project. Thanks for joining us, Max. MAX BLUMENTHAL: Thanks for having me on. BEN NORTON: So there’s a lot to unpack here. There are a lot of different names that viewers might not be familiar with. Some people might know of Cambridge Analytica because in the past several months there was a big media scandal over its role in infiltrating and influencing the 2016 U.S. presidential election. Before we get to discuss this Yemen operation, this counterinsurgency operation that you exposed, let’s just talk a bit about Cambridge Analytica and its parent company, the SCL Group. Can you explain to the audience what Cambridge Analytica and SCL are? MAX BLUMENTHAL: I would basically describe SCL as a private intelligence operation, or private intelligence agency. They call themselves a data firm, but I think that kind of undersells their ability to conduct not just surveillance, even kind of counterinsurgency operations, as I showed in Project Titania, but also influencing elections. And it’s something that they up until recently were pretty proud of doing. So proud that they boasted of, for example, cultivating anti-Russian sentiment among the Ukrainian population in the contested areas of eastern Ukraine on behalf of the Ukrainian government, and participating in the Ukrainian Color Revolution in 2004, which removed a Russian-oriented government and replaced it in basically, you know, in basically a Western-backed de facto coup with a Western-oriented government. SCL Group was front and center as part, in part of that, in that operation, and they bragged about it on their website. They’ve been active in Kenyan elections. And it was only a matter of time before they-. And you know, they’ve been active in elections around the world, as well as counterinsurgency-style operations, where they collect data on local populations in conflict areas. And they freely acknowledged, I mean, I wouldn’t say this investigation was necessarily explosive. I think it’s really valuable to have these documents. I don’t know if anyone has produced original documents like these that really lay out the plans for what SCL and its other private intelligence partners were doing in conflict zones like Yemen. But SCL has freely acknowledged its work in Syria and Libya and Iran on its website, as well. We just didn’t know what the nature of it was. So what I was able to do is kind of fill in some of the blanks, dot some of the Is and the Ts that were already on the webs-. That were already on the website, and kind of really highlight the use of deception that SCL had perfected in order to insinuate itself into areas that were difficult for its Western clients to, its Western patrons to reach. SCL is the British parent company of Cambridge Analytica, which more Americans would be familiar with. Cambridge Analytica obtained the data through Facebook of 87 million Americans as part of an influence operation that it carried out partly on behalf of the Donald Trump campaign. It was also working with Ted Cruz, and it worked in several campaigns in 2014 in the U.S., and basically was owned by Stephen Bannon and the Mercer operation of reclusive billionaire Robert Mercer, who until recently was the patron of Stephen Bannon and one of the major backers of the whole kind of apparatus that made up the Trump 2016 campaign. Robert Mercer’s daughter Rebecca was a co-owner of Cambridge Analytica, and was involved with SCL Group, and Bannon was also co-owner. So this scandal, naturally, was going to erupt in the Trump era, when Democrats in Congress are really angry about the fact that Donald Trump won it all and were looking into how he did it, and seeking to frame it as this kind of nefarious operation and to paint Trump as a figure without popular support. Well, first they look to Russia. And you know, as we’ve done in interview after interview here, shown that there really wasn’t a whole lot there to demonstrate collusion. So they finally turned to something we have been talking about for over a year, for a while, Cambridge Analytica. Cambridge Analytica was also involved in Brexit. The oligarchs who started the Brexit campaign hired Cambridge Analytica, and Bannon learned a lot of lessons there. So finally, the Democrats started looking at it. An insider from Cambridge Analytica emerged and detailed a lot of the deceptive practices they used. And then Channel 4 in the UK conducted a sting on Cambridge Analytica. One of their executives was boasting of honey traps, and all kinds of, you know, James Bond villain-style tactics that they pledge to use. And you know, I think what I’ve done with this investigation is show that a lot of the tactics it uses are just good old-fashioned counterinsurgency. I interviewed Yasha Levine, who’s the author of Surveillance Valley, which is a great book on how the Internet grew out of counterinsurgency programs and is used to surveil us. And Yasha said, yeah, this is, a lot of these tactics that are laid out in the documents for Project Titania in Yemen, they look like Vietnam-era counterinsurgency stuff. Nothing particularly significant, but it’s still, you know, pretty sinister. And so when you kind of put all of these different pieces together, and you consider the fact that one organization working with this web of other private intelligence groups is carrying out counterinsurgency, kind of surveillance-style operations, to collect data on people in conflict areas in the Middle East. As one of my sources told me, they’re also posing as journalists to go into areas like Iran, and posing as students, either foreign exchange students or Arabic language students, to collect data in Syria. They’re doing that, and then they’re starting to hone their craft in the West, particularly in the UK and the U.S., through this cutout company, Cambridge Analytica. It really starts to look like a case of blowback, where the tactics that the West is applying against the populations it’s targeting in the third world are coming back to its own elections. And they’re being used to elect, in some cases, extreme right-wing candidates, and to carry out influence operations and covert propaganda against a public that believes that, you know, it’s acting democratically. BEN NORTON: Yeah, so you raise a lot of important points there. And one of the things I want to try to do is help unpack some of these details for viewers. There are a lot of different companies and names and people involved in this. We’ve been talking about SCL, which stands for Strategic Communication Laboratories. That’s the parent company of Cambridge Analytica, which you mentioned is, it was co-owned by Steve Bannon and Robert Mercer, who backed Donald Trump, also involved in Project Titania, which is this counterinsurgency operation in Yemen. Also involved is a U.S.-based military contractor Archimedes. This is the company that, that, that the SCL Goup was in fact operating on behalf of. And then finally, of course, you mention in your article, and it’s been documented elsewhere, that SCL frequently had contracts with the U.K. government. So we see a web of different operatives here, and we see multiple governments, including the UK and the U.S. involved in some ways. Maybe if not the U.S. government is directly involved, at least the UK government is involved. Can you speak a little bit more about the the kind of web of, or the revolving door, rather, between governments and private interests here, and how companies like SCL, as you mentioned Yasha Levine has documented how these these tech companies often serve as contractors for governments, and they advance those governments’ interests through soft power. MAX BLUMENTHAL: Basically, I obtained the documents that were given to, I suppose, I assume the employees of these two private intelligence firms, SCL, which is the parent company of Cambridge Analytica, and Archimedes. Archimedes appeared to be, SCL appeared to be contracted through Archimedes, and Archimedes was based, I think, in the Bay Area. It’s a U.S.-based company. And the mission, as laid out in these documents which I published in full at GrayzoneProject.com, were instructions for entering Yemen in 2009, which was really the height of the Obama drone assassination program, into the two provinces where the skies were shadowed by U.S. drones and the ground was substantially occupied, or, or featured massive mobilization and organization by al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. And what SCL seek to do was to gather data on young males, and what attracted them to jihadist activity and then they were going to develop a, what they called, I think, I think they openly said counterpropaganda campaign. But an influencing operation to turn the young males somehow against jihadist recruitment. And this meant that they had to first find local researchers, Yemenis to conduct research on the young males, basically getting them into schools and different community centers to answer questionnaires which SCL and Archimedes had drawn up. And they were specifically ordered, the SCL operatives were specifically ordered to develop a cover story with the local Yemeni researchers, and various cover stories were proposed so that the researchers on the ground, the Yemeni population, would not know that they were carrying out an actual counterinsurgency operation, possibly on behalf of the UK government. All of these operatives from SCL were told to gather at the British embassy in Sana’a, the Yemeni capital. So it’s pretty clear that something that the, either the British government or whoever hired SCL was going on, that they sought to conceal-. And this has had really negative ramifications in the past when the element of concealment fell apart. For example, the polio eradication campaign in Pakistan, which was being carried out by the CIA in order to extract the DNA of Osama bin Laden’s family. When the rural population of Pakistan discovered that they, this wasn’t, in fact, a polio eradication program, and that the local Pakistanis were acting as a front for the CIA, jihadist groups declared a boycott, and polio began to spread massively spread all the way into Afghanistan. So you can, you know, you really have a kind of precedent for, for, you know, a critical, for a critical look at a program like this. I mean, there’s a precedent for programs like this doing deep damage to local populations, is what I’m saying. And so, you know, it all goes back to a web of private intelligence operatives. I’ve talked about SCL before, but there’s also Archimedes. I don’t know if this firm still exists, but I found one character in a communication I obtained who was sort of the contact between SCL and Archimedes. His name was Tim Reason. He’s now at another firm I never heard of before called Madison Springfield. Character, you know, there’s there’s very little on this character. I’ve seen him participate in some programs for AFRICOM, which is the U.S. military kind of archipelago of U.S. military bases in Africa. But I know very little about him. I did find him, however, in the HBGary leaks, which were published by WikiLeaks in 2011. And HBGary is another private intelligence firm. And basically, if you go into these leaks, I don’t know any normal people who have time to do this, but I kind of had to do it to produce this investigation, you’re just going to find a bunch of private spies talking to each other about designing competing mass surveillance programs at the dawn of the Arab Spring to spy on Arab youth, gobble up their personal information, and then design influence operations based on what they’ve learned about Arab youth, who are considered sort of a restive population engaged in this revolutionary process that’s overturning governments across the Arab world. So Tim Reason turns up in all of these email threads with different characters from private intelligence firms I’d never heard of before, along with staffers from Apple, who are from the Homeland Security division of Apple. I didn’t know Apple had a Homeland Security division before, or that they were this involved, Google is also involved here, this involved in mass surveillance. And it really it’s just that kind of just scratching the surface. But it’s really a disturbing portrait of this private intelligence web which is carried out, carrying out influence operations, covert propaganda, and mass surveillance completely out of the sight of most of the world’s population by design. And they’re being contracted by governments to do so so the governments don’t have to take any responsibility. I learned about this all thanks to the work of Barrett Brown. And Barrett Brown went to prison for 56 months because he received all of these hacked e-mails from the Anonymous collective, and reported on them. For reporting on them. He went to prison under Obama. And it’s thanks to Barrett Brown, and to WikiLeaks, Julian Assange is now, you know, undergoing horrible conditions at the Ecuadorian embassy in London thanks to pressure from the U.S. and UK government. It’s really thanks to these two that we know about these programs, and that we know about the ROMAS/COIN mass surveillance program that I wrote about that Tim Reason was involved in. So really just by starting this investigation, looking at these SCL documents, I learned about this entire wider web of covert influence operations. And we really have to see Cambridge Analytica as just the tip of the massive iceberg that might represent the greatest threat to whatever’s left of democracy. BEN NORTON: Well, we’ll have to end our conversation there. We were joined by Max Blumenthal. He is an award-winning journalist and the author of several books. He is also the editor of the website The Grayzone Project, which you can find at GrayzoneProject.com. He just published a two-part exposé on the SCL Group, which is the parent company of Cambridge Analytica, exposing how it led a counterinsurgency and surveillance operation in Yemen. Max also mentioned Yasha Levine, and we at The Real News have an interview with Aaron Maté in which Aaron Maté and Yasha Levine discuss Yasha’s new book Surveillance Vally, which is more about all of these issues we discussed today, big tech companies and their relations to governments. But thanks for joining us here at The Real News, Max. MAX BLUMENTHAL: Thanks for having me. BEN NORTON: Reporting for The Real News. I’m Ben Nort -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Mon Jun 4 15:24:47 2018 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2018 10:24:47 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] A 'doubtless very different' revolution Message-ID: <8s26u11um7dphcbml29fc367.1528125661488@email.lge.com> And the article about Cambridge Analytica''s parent group conducting surveillance and interference in other countries that Karen Aram submitted to the peace discuss list just after this, is just one example of the barbarism, immorality etc. in this age. Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discussDate: Mon, Jun 4, 2018 8:22 AMTo: peace-discuss at anti-war.net;Cc: Peace;Subject:[Peace-discuss] A 'doubtless very different' revolution “It is always dangerous to draw too precise parallels between one historical period and another; and among the most misleading of such parallels are those which have been drawn between our own age in Europe and North America and the epoch in which the Roman Empire declined into the Dark Ages. None the less certain parallels there are. A crucial turning point in that earlier history occurred when men and women of good will turned aside from the task of shoring up the Roman imperium and ceased to identify the continuation of civility and moral community with the maintenance of that imperium. What they set themselves to achieve instead—often not recognising fully what they were doing—was the construction of new forms of community within which the moral life could be sustained so that both morality and civility might survive the coming ages of barbarism and darkness. If my account of our moral condition is correct [one characterized by moral incoherence and unsettlable moral disputes in the modern world], we ought to conclude that for some time now we too have reached that turning point. What matters at this stage is the construction of local forms of community within which civility and the intellectual and moral life can be sustained through the new dark ages which are already upon us. And if the tradition of the virtues was able to survive the horrors of the last dark ages, we are not entirely without grounds for hope. This time however the barbarians are not waiting beyond the frontiers; they have already been governing us for quite some time. And it is our lack of consciousness of this that constitutes part of our predicament. We are waiting not for a Godot, but for another—doubtless very different—St. Benedict.” – Alasdair MacIntyre, in 'After Virtue,' thirty-five years ago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Mon Jun 4 15:24:47 2018 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2018 10:24:47 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] A 'doubtless very different' revolution Message-ID: <8s26u11um7dphcbml29fc367.1528125661488@email.lge.com> And the article about Cambridge Analytica''s parent group conducting surveillance and interference in other countries that Karen Aram submitted to the peace discuss list just after this, is just one example of the barbarism, immorality etc. in this age. Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discussDate: Mon, Jun 4, 2018 8:22 AMTo: peace-discuss at anti-war.net;Cc: Peace;Subject:[Peace-discuss] A 'doubtless very different' revolution “It is always dangerous to draw too precise parallels between one historical period and another; and among the most misleading of such parallels are those which have been drawn between our own age in Europe and North America and the epoch in which the Roman Empire declined into the Dark Ages. None the less certain parallels there are. A crucial turning point in that earlier history occurred when men and women of good will turned aside from the task of shoring up the Roman imperium and ceased to identify the continuation of civility and moral community with the maintenance of that imperium. What they set themselves to achieve instead—often not recognising fully what they were doing—was the construction of new forms of community within which the moral life could be sustained so that both morality and civility might survive the coming ages of barbarism and darkness. If my account of our moral condition is correct [one characterized by moral incoherence and unsettlable moral disputes in the modern world], we ought to conclude that for some time now we too have reached that turning point. What matters at this stage is the construction of local forms of community within which civility and the intellectual and moral life can be sustained through the new dark ages which are already upon us. And if the tradition of the virtues was able to survive the horrors of the last dark ages, we are not entirely without grounds for hope. This time however the barbarians are not waiting beyond the frontiers; they have already been governing us for quite some time. And it is our lack of consciousness of this that constitutes part of our predicament. We are waiting not for a Godot, but for another—doubtless very different—St. Benedict.” – Alasdair MacIntyre, in 'After Virtue,' thirty-five years ago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 19:52:24 2018 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 14:52:24 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Pepe is correct & Bannon mostly so In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very interesting; but the more the word nationalism gets used from various persuasions, whether positively or pejoratively, the less it seems to mean in a consistent way; but nationalism has always been a kind of fiction, as Eric Hobsbawm and others taught us; as well as a political football, perhaps relevant as the World Cup approaches and we see that national identity is a given in the most crass and chauvinistic terms. On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 9:57 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156331653311678&set=a. > 10150294029661678.381794.775051677&type=3&theater > > ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME – AGAIN > > Steve Bannon is absolutely bonkers with what’s goin’ on in Italy. La > Repubblica calls him “the Dark Knight of global populism”. He talked to the > paper (portal). Here’s the low down. > > For Bannon, “Rome is now at the center of world politics” (correct). He > has “advised” La Lega’s Salvini, and said they paid due attention. > > He’s enthusiastic that Lega and 5S “hit the heart of the European beast” > (correct), foreign capitals and “foreign opposition media” (FT, Le Monde, > etc.). He considers Salvini and Di Maio “heroic” – and the other hero is > Berlusconi (not really). On 5S, he says they are “similar to socialist > Sanders in the US”, anti-establishment and for transparency. And are allies > to Italy’s “Trump” – referring to Salvini. > > He’s sure “Brussels, the stock market and the financial powers will go > through hell” (correct). > > For Bannon, Italy is “a sleeping giant, with a huge economy” (correct). > Brussels and media like the FT are “afraid of Italy” (true – the FT even > invoked “barbarians”). > > He expects a “confederation of free states” to emerge in place of the > current EU (not so fast). “The fascists are in Brussels” (relatively > correct). And “we are on the right side of history; Merkel and Macron will > fall” (not so fast). > > Trump is “back to his national-populist agenda” and “things could not be > better for the US” (incorrect). Especially now that “the military have been > sidelined from the administration” (but not the deep state – on the > contrary). He thinks Pompeo could become President one day (Lord have > mercy). > > Bannon thinks the Judeo-Christian West must be united – thus no Russia > demonization. He stresses Russia’s economy is smaller than Italy’s > (correct). “The problem is Russia is hated by the Democrats because is a > nationalist country and they have the Orthodox Church (fundamentally > correct). “The real problem is Iran” (ridiculous). > > Well, as you can see the man IS on a roll. > > ### > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 04:37:17 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 23:37:17 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Democrats sabotage NKorea peace Message-ID: <3A455AA9-8C75-4E08-9B5F-D4659770BE83@gmail.com> > "Democratic Senator from Illinois, Dick Durbin was one of seven US Senators to sign a letter to President Trump threatening that Congress will sabotage any deal with North Korea that isn't tough enough. This is yet more proof that both Major Parties are War Parties. We need to run someone against this guy the next time he is up for re-election.” --John McCarthy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 04:43:27 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 23:43:27 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?The_Injustice_of_Reality_Winner?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_Year_in_Jail?= Message-ID: <463423BC-A397-4754-A74A-1DB134FA77F8@gmail.com> One year ago, FBI agents arrived at the door of a young woman named Reality Winner. Winner, an Air Force veteran and contractor at the National Security Agency facility in Augusta, Georgia, was accused of leaking a top-secret NSA document describing a Russian hacking operation targeting the U.S. voting system. At the time, President Donald Trump was loudly denouncing claims of Russian hacking as “fake news,” and he had just fired FBI Director James Comey because he wanted to end the investigation into “this Russia thing with Trump and Russia.” The document that Winner is accused of leaking was the subject of an article, published by The Intercept two days after her arrest, detailing the Russian hacking attempt on the cusp of the 2016 election. Winner was interrogated and jailed, charged under the Espionage Act, and denied bail. She remains in jail today. In a piece published by The Intercept on Sunday, the one-year anniversary of Winner’s arrest, Peter Maass compares the punitive treatment of Winner, whose alleged leak alerted the public to the hacking effort, to that of Paul Manafort, Trump’s former campaign manager, who is suspected of colluding with Russians and is facing charges of conspiracy, money laundering, bank fraud, and lying to federal investigators — and who received the government’s blessing to spend his recent Christmas holiday at his 10-room Hamptons mansion. Over the past year, The Intercept has been following legal developments in Winner’s case, which has faced setbacks after multiple court rulings have restricted her attorneys’ ability to defend her. (The Intercept’s parent company, First Look Media, has contributed to her legal defense through its Press Freedom Defense Fund.) Throughout, the fanatical secrecy of the government has been a tremendous hurdle. As James Risen recently argued, it is becoming increasingly clear that the leaking of the NSA report was a vital public service. A May report by the Senate Intelligence Committee noted that state election officials learned about the Russian hacking “from the press or from the public Committee hearing on June 21, 2017.” The Intercept story ran less than three weeks before that hearing. There’s still a lot we don’t know, however, about exactly what local election officials knew about the attacks on their systems, and when they knew it. The Intercept has been investigating. Sam Biddle filed his first report on this on Friday — and there is more to come. If you can, please make a donation to support Reality Winner’s defense. All donations made on this page will be directed to the Press Freedom Defense Fund for Reality Winner. Betsy Reed Editor-in-Chief Whatever You Think of the Trump-Russia Investigation, Whistleblower Reality Winner Deserves Your Support Trevor Timm Hardly anyone from the center to the left supports the former NSA contractor, but they all should. Reality Winner Has Been in Jail for a Year. Her Prosecution Is Unfair and Unprecedented. Peter Maass Winner is accused of leaking a classified NSA document that helped alert Americans to Russian hacking attacks against the U.S. voting system. Here’s the Email Russian Hackers Used to Try to Break Into State Voting Systems Sam Biddle The simplicity of the email, which included a malicious election software manual, is part of the playbook of an advanced attacker, an expert said. More Intercept Coverage First Look to Support Defense of Reality Winner in Espionage Act Prosecution Betsy Reed The Press Freedom Defense Fund opposes prosecution of journalistic sources under the Espionage Act, and The Intercept concludes its review of reporting practices. Top-Secret NSA Report Details Russian Hacking Effort Days Before 2016 Election Matthew Cole, Richard Esposito, Sam Biddle, Ryan Grim A top-secret National Security Agency report details a monthslong Russian hacking effort against the U.S. election infrastructure. Judge Denies Bail for Reality Winner, Accepting Prosecutor’s Dubious Allegations Trevor Timm The judge took many of the prosecution’s charges about Reality Winner’s views at face value — portending a tough road ahead at trial. Senate Report Strongly Implies Russian Hacking Story Was a Public Service — but Whistleblower Reality Winner Remains in Jail James Risen Other outlets reported on Russian intrusion into the U.S. elections system, but The Intercept’s story relied on a leaked document. The Government Is Trying to Make It Impossible for Reality Winner to Defend Herself in Court Trevor Timm The government is imposing secrecy rules that tie the defense team’s hands. How the Interrogation of Reality Winner Reveals the Deceptive Tactics of “Exceedingly Friendly” FBI Agents Peter Maass FBI agents chatted about their love of dogs and their workout routines to entice Winner to talk during a disputed interrogation at her home. Reality Winner Was Not Told She Had the Right to Remain Silent Trevor Timm Lawyers for Reality Winner, the ex-NSA contractor accused of leaking a top-secret document published by The Intercept, want her alleged confession thrown out. James Comey’s Memos Reveal the Reasons Donald Trump Wants to Find Leakers and Put Reporters in Jail James Risen There is a big difference between the kind of leaks Trump usually decries on Twitter and the kind that lead to criminal prosecutions. The Reality Winner Prosecution Relies on Secrecy and Fearmongering Trevor Timm The former NSA contractor’s bail appeal shows how the government is treating her unlike almost anyone ever charged under the Espionage Act. Join us in supporting Reality Winner. All donations made here will be directed to the Press Freedom Defense Fund in support of her defense. The Intercept's mailing address is: First Look Media 114 Fifth Avenue New York, NY 10010 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 05:33:42 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 00:33:42 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Vote against Democrats Message-ID: <24B1C169-17AD-424D-8197-D21627337451@gmail.com> https://news.antiwar.com/2018/06/04/senate-dems-threaten-legislation-to-undermine-north-korea-nuclear-deal/ From karenaram at hotmail.com Tue Jun 5 11:09:21 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 11:09:21 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Chomsky's Best Speech 2018 Message-ID: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwTQsvhq3ew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Tue Jun 5 12:47:54 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 07:47:54 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Pepe is correct & Bannon mostly so In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25387632-E5F5-4836-91D9-587A51E7DF6E@illinois.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Tue Jun 5 13:03:16 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 13:03:16 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Pepe is correct & Bannon mostly so In-Reply-To: <25387632-E5F5-4836-91D9-587A51E7DF6E@illinois.edu> References: <25387632-E5F5-4836-91D9-587A51E7DF6E@illinois.edu> Message-ID: [cid:image001.jpg at 01D3FCA3.88A26810] Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2018 7:48 AM To: David Green Cc: peace ; Peace Discuss Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Pepe is correct & Bannon mostly so Yes, ‘nationalism’ is being used in two conflicting ways: (1) the interests of a country's elite minority; (2) the interests of the majority, as when we speak of the interests of the nation versus neoliberalism. On Jun 4, 2018, at 2:52 PM, David Green > wrote: Very interesting; but the more the word nationalism gets used from various persuasions, whether positively or pejoratively, the less it seems to mean in a consistent way; but nationalism has always been a kind of fiction, as Eric Hobsbawm and others taught us; as well as a political football, perhaps relevant as the World Cup approaches and we see that national identity is a given in the most crass and chauvinistic terms. On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 9:57 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156331653311678&set=a.10150294029661678.381794.775051677&type=3&theater ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME – AGAIN Steve Bannon is absolutely bonkers with what’s goin’ on in Italy. La Repubblica calls him “the Dark Knight of global populism”. He talked to the paper (portal). Here’s the low down. For Bannon, “Rome is now at the center of world politics” (correct). He has “advised” La Lega’s Salvini, and said they paid due attention. He’s enthusiastic that Lega and 5S “hit the heart of the European beast” (correct), foreign capitals and “foreign opposition media” (FT, Le Monde, etc.). He considers Salvini and Di Maio “heroic” – and the other hero is Berlusconi (not really). On 5S, he says they are “similar to socialist Sanders in the US”, anti-establishment and for transparency. And are allies to Italy’s “Trump” – referring to Salvini. He’s sure “Brussels, the stock market and the financial powers will go through hell” (correct). For Bannon, Italy is “a sleeping giant, with a huge economy” (correct). Brussels and media like the FT are “afraid of Italy” (true – the FT even invoked “barbarians”). He expects a “confederation of free states” to emerge in place of the current EU (not so fast). “The fascists are in Brussels” (relatively correct). And “we are on the right side of history; Merkel and Macron will fall” (not so fast). Trump is “back to his national-populist agenda” and “things could not be better for the US” (incorrect). Especially now that “the military have been sidelined from the administration” (but not the deep state – on the contrary). He thinks Pompeo could become President one day (Lord have mercy). Bannon thinks the Judeo-Christian West must be united – thus no Russia demonization. He stresses Russia’s economy is smaller than Italy’s (correct). “The problem is Russia is hated by the Democrats because is a nationalist country and they have the Orthodox Church (fundamentally correct). “The real problem is Iran” (ridiculous). Well, as you can see the man IS on a roll. ### _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 53109 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Tue Jun 5 15:18:44 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 10:18:44 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Pepe is correct & Bannon mostly so In-Reply-To: References: <25387632-E5F5-4836-91D9-587A51E7DF6E@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <26A1E4FB-CF60-4B33-821E-1890CE186712@illinois.edu> A case of Trump Derangement Syndrome = the view that the weakest president since Coolidge is the problem, encouraged by the political establishment who see that Trump rode in on the populist wave that gave us the Sanders campaign, Brexit, Melenchon & Le Pen, the new Italian government, etc. Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 5, 2018, at 8:03 AM, Boyle, Francis A wrote: > > > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2018 7:48 AM > To: David Green > Cc: peace ; Peace Discuss > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Pepe is correct & Bannon mostly so > > Yes, ‘nationalism’ is being used in two conflicting ways: > > (1) the interests of a country's elite minority; (2) the interests of the majority, as when we speak of the interests of the nation versus neoliberalism. > > > On Jun 4, 2018, at 2:52 PM, David Green wrote: > > Very interesting; but the more the word nationalism gets used from various persuasions, whether positively or pejoratively, the less it seems to mean in a consistent way; but nationalism has always been a kind of fiction, as Eric Hobsbawm and others taught us; as well as a political football, perhaps relevant as the World Cup approaches and we see that national identity is a given in the most crass and chauvinistic terms. > > On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 9:57 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156331653311678&set=a.10150294029661678.381794.775051677&type=3&theater > > ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME – AGAIN > > Steve Bannon is absolutely bonkers with what’s goin’ on in Italy. La Repubblica calls him “the Dark Knight of global populism”. He talked to the paper (portal). Here’s the low down. > > For Bannon, “Rome is now at the center of world politics” (correct). He has “advised” La Lega’s Salvini, and said they paid due attention. > > He’s enthusiastic that Lega and 5S “hit the heart of the European beast” (correct), foreign capitals and “foreign opposition media” (FT, Le Monde, etc.). He considers Salvini and Di Maio “heroic” – and the other hero is Berlusconi (not really). On 5S, he says they are “similar to socialist Sanders in the US”, anti-establishment and for transparency. And are allies to Italy’s “Trump” – referring to Salvini. > > He’s sure “Brussels, the stock market and the financial powers will go through hell” (correct). > > For Bannon, Italy is “a sleeping giant, with a huge economy” (correct). Brussels and media like the FT are “afraid of Italy” (true – the FT even invoked “barbarians”). > > He expects a “confederation of free states” to emerge in place of the current EU (not so fast). “The fascists are in Brussels” (relatively correct). And “we are on the right side of history; Merkel and Macron will fall” (not so fast). > > Trump is “back to his national-populist agenda” and “things could not be better for the US” (incorrect). Especially now that “the military have been sidelined from the administration” (but not the deep state – on the contrary). He thinks Pompeo could become President one day (Lord have mercy). > > Bannon thinks the Judeo-Christian West must be united – thus no Russia demonization. He stresses Russia’s economy is smaller than Italy’s (correct). “The problem is Russia is hated by the Democrats because is a nationalist country and they have the Orthodox Church (fundamentally correct). “The real problem is Iran” (ridiculous). > > Well, as you can see the man IS on a roll. > > ### > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Tue Jun 5 15:26:30 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 15:26:30 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Pepe is correct & Bannon mostly so In-Reply-To: <26A1E4FB-CF60-4B33-821E-1890CE186712@illinois.edu> References: <25387632-E5F5-4836-91D9-587A51E7DF6E@illinois.edu> <26A1E4FB-CF60-4B33-821E-1890CE186712@illinois.edu> Message-ID: Stalingrad We got off the boat at the dock Walking into town I was asked Could I lay some flowers At the War Memorial On the Banks of the Volga? Of course I said yes Honored and pleased My Dad had fought the Japanese At Saipan and Tinian and Okinawa Nazis were not his war But we were all Allies together In the Noble Cause to Defeat Fascism As I neared the Statue On the Banks of the Volga Young Komsomol Girl appeared All dressed in white Carrying a wreath of red roses She gave to me A band was playing Joyful, not somber, but subdued Town Elders assembled Sun was shining Most beautiful day On the Banks of the Volga I lay my wreath of roses To the Defenders and Victims of Stalingrad Bowed my head in silent reflection If the Soviets had not held at Stalingrad All Europe today would be speaking German And saluting: Heil Hitler! Deutschland, Deutschland But not Uber Alles My Dad was smiling On the Banks of the Volga [cid:image003.jpg at 01D3FCB7.AAF0AA30] Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Carl G. Estabrook Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 10:19 AM To: Boyle, Francis A Cc: David Green ; Karen Aram ; Robert Naiman ; peace ; Peace Discuss Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Pepe is correct & Bannon mostly so A case of Trump Derangement Syndrome = the view that the weakest president since Coolidge is the problem, encouraged by the political establishment who see that Trump rode in on the populist wave that gave us the Sanders campaign, Brexit, Melenchon & Le Pen, the new Italian government, etc. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 5, 2018, at 8:03 AM, Boyle, Francis A > wrote: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2018 7:48 AM To: David Green > Cc: peace >; Peace Discuss > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Pepe is correct & Bannon mostly so Yes, ‘nationalism’ is being used in two conflicting ways: (1) the interests of a country's elite minority; (2) the interests of the majority, as when we speak of the interests of the nation versus neoliberalism. On Jun 4, 2018, at 2:52 PM, David Green > wrote: Very interesting; but the more the word nationalism gets used from various persuasions, whether positively or pejoratively, the less it seems to mean in a consistent way; but nationalism has always been a kind of fiction, as Eric Hobsbawm and others taught us; as well as a political football, perhaps relevant as the World Cup approaches and we see that national identity is a given in the most crass and chauvinistic terms. On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 9:57 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156331653311678&set=a.10150294029661678.381794.775051677&type=3&theater ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME – AGAIN Steve Bannon is absolutely bonkers with what’s goin’ on in Italy. La Repubblica calls him “the Dark Knight of global populism”. He talked to the paper (portal). Here’s the low down. For Bannon, “Rome is now at the center of world politics” (correct). He has “advised” La Lega’s Salvini, and said they paid due attention. He’s enthusiastic that Lega and 5S “hit the heart of the European beast” (correct), foreign capitals and “foreign opposition media” (FT, Le Monde, etc.). He considers Salvini and Di Maio “heroic” – and the other hero is Berlusconi (not really). On 5S, he says they are “similar to socialist Sanders in the US”, anti-establishment and for transparency. And are allies to Italy’s “Trump” – referring to Salvini. He’s sure “Brussels, the stock market and the financial powers will go through hell” (correct). For Bannon, Italy is “a sleeping giant, with a huge economy” (correct). Brussels and media like the FT are “afraid of Italy” (true – the FT even invoked “barbarians”). He expects a “confederation of free states” to emerge in place of the current EU (not so fast). “The fascists are in Brussels” (relatively correct). And “we are on the right side of history; Merkel and Macron will fall” (not so fast). Trump is “back to his national-populist agenda” and “things could not be better for the US” (incorrect). Especially now that “the military have been sidelined from the administration” (but not the deep state – on the contrary). He thinks Pompeo could become President one day (Lord have mercy). Bannon thinks the Judeo-Christian West must be united – thus no Russia demonization. He stresses Russia’s economy is smaller than Italy’s (correct). “The problem is Russia is hated by the Democrats because is a nationalist country and they have the Orthodox Church (fundamentally correct). “The real problem is Iran” (ridiculous). Well, as you can see the man IS on a roll. ### _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 68889 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: From divisek at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 16:55:02 2018 From: divisek at yahoo.com (Dianna Visek) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 16:55:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Eisenhower Was Right: The Military-Industrial Complex Has Deformed American Christianity References: <1825058291.410130.1528217702627.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1825058291.410130.1528217702627@mail.yahoo.com> Eisenhower Was Right: The Military-Industrial Complex Has Deformed American Christianity | | | | | | | | | | | Eisenhower Was Right: The Military-Industrial Complex Has Deformed Ameri... However much people may debate the history and nature of Christianity, no serious student concludes that it’s a ... | | | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ewj at pigs.ag Tue Jun 5 23:47:21 2018 From: ewj at pigs.ag (ewj) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2018 07:47:21 +0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Eisenhower Was Right: The Military-Industrial Complex Has Deformed American Christianity In-Reply-To: <1825058291.410130.1528217702627@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1825058291.410130.1528217702627.ref@mail.yahoo.com><1825058291.410130.1528217702627@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1528242441011.y5vow2jz4mbgusbvbbjkws01@android.mail.163.com> this so-called american christianity certainly is Not the True Church but.is a kind of dried-out organized religion. The real deal still gets its orders from Jesus and he is still the Prince of Peace. On 2018-06-06 00:55 , Dianna Visek via Peace-discuss Wrote: Eisenhower Was Right: The Military-Industrial Complex Has Deformed American Christianity Eisenhower Was Right: The Military-Industrial Complex Has Deformed Ameri... However much people may debate the history and nature of Christianity, no serious student concludes that it’s a ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Wed Jun 6 09:20:09 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 04:20:09 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Conservative nationalism? Message-ID: <106B392D-23D3-4C7F-83CA-192D843236ED@illinois.edu> https://www.rt.com/op-ed/428812-donald-trump-sides-europe/ “Virtually all Americans born in the 1940s earned more than their parents; today, it’s less than half. The rust belt revolt that brought both Brexit and Trump reflects rotting factories, dying towns, and a half century of empty promises. Those left behind are very, very angry; Trump is their middle finger. The more he outrages coastal elites, the more his followers gloat they got our goat. Finally, they are being noticed.” —CGE From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Jun 6 11:58:52 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 11:58:52 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Dan Glazebrook explains how and why "talks" so often fail... Message-ID: HomeOp-ed Rambouillet ruse? Why Trump could be setting up his North Korea talks to fail [Dan Glazebrook] Dan Glazebrook is a freelance political writer who has written for RT, Counterpunch, Z magazine, the Morning Star, the Guardian, the New Statesman, the Independent and Middle East Eye, amongst others. His first book “Divide and Ruin: The West’s Imperial Strategy in an Age of Crisis” was published by Liberation Media in October 2013. It featured a collection of articles written from 2009 onwards examining the links between economic collapse, the rise of the BRICS, war on Libya and Syria and 'austerity'. He is currently researching a book on US-British use of sectarian death squads against independent states and movements from Northern Ireland and Central America in the 1970s and 80s to the Middle East and Africa today. Published time: 6 Jun, 2018 09:17 Get short URL [Rambouillet ruse? Why Trump could be setting up his North Korea talks to fail] U.S. President Donald Trump, September 26, 2017 © Jonathan Ernst / Reuters * * * * * * * President Trump has set the bar of success so high for his forthcoming meeting with Kim Jong-un, it is difficult to see how it could possibly be met. As the New York Times noted last month, “To meet his own definition of success, Mr. Trump will have to persuade Mr. Kim to accept ‘complete, verifiable and irreversible denuclearization’ of North Korea — something that Mr. Kim has shown no willingness to accept in the past, and few believe he will accede to in the future.” Such denuclearization would involve “the actual dismantlement of weapons, the removal of stockpiled uranium and plutonium bomb fuel from the country and a verification program that will be one of the most complex in history, given the vastness of North Korea’s mountains.”Furthermore, Trump has suggested that the North Koreans will gain nothing in return for this one-sided destruction of their defenses, until the process is all-but-complete; as one Trump official toldthe Wall Street Journal, “When the president says that he will not make the mistakes of the past, that means the U.S. will not be making substantial concessions, such as lifting sanctions, until North Korea has substantially dismantled its nuclear programs”. In other words - give up your leverage first; then we’ll see. What Trump appears to seek is nothing less than a completely disarmed Korea that will pave the way for the “Libya solution” his people have openly suggested is the goal. Obviously, North Korea will not go for that. The whole point of their nuclear program has been to ensure that their country avoids the fate of Iraq or Libya; which is why the intelligence community is generally united in their view that it will never be given up. According to Ryan Hass of the Brookings Institution, “virtually no North Korea analyst inside or outside of the US government expect Kim Jong-un to relinquish his nuclear weapons”, quoting former CIA analyst Jung Pak that Kim views nuclear weapons as both “vital to the security of his regime and his legitimacy as leader of North Korea”. Read more [FILE PHOTO: A ballistic missile is launched by North Korea during a drill on August 30, 2017. © KCNA]Russia abhors the very idea of a nuclear war between its neighbor North Korea and the US – Putin Meanwhile, the New York Times comments: “ask the people who have seen past peace initiatives whether they think this one will work out any differently, and they have serious doubts that Mr. Kim will give up his nuclear program for any price”, whilst for Stratfor, the complete denuclearization of North Korea is “a lofty goal that will be nearly impossible to ensure”. So what is Trump doing? Surely he knows what he is proposing would be completely unacceptable to any North Korean leader, let alone Kim Jong-un? But maybe this is the point. What if Trump, far from wanting to reach a deal, is actually deliberately pushing a proposal which is supposed to be rejected? After all, so long as he ensures his demands are unacceptable, he can offer the moon in return: recognition, technology, aid, lifting of sanctions, hell - why not? - even the removal of US troops from South Korea. Having such an offer rejected would allow Trump much more readily to be able to paint North Korea as the aggressor - unwilling to compromise, insincere in its desire for peace, etc, etc. This is, after all, a time-honored tactic. In February 1999, in the French town of Rambouillet, a series of meetings were convened between representatives of Kosovo’s multiethnic population and the US with the ostensible aim of resolving the conflict between Kosovan separatists and the Yugoslav government. For its part, the Yugoslavs had proposed a ceasefire, peace talks, the return of displaced citizens, and the establishment of a devolved assembly for the province, with a wide degree of autonomy. This would clearly have gone a long way to addressing the conflict; but that very fact made it completely unacceptable to the US, desperate to justify their coming onslaught against Yugoslavia. Instead, they needed a ‘peace deal’ that would be rejected by the Yugoslavs, who could then be painted as the aggressors, paving the way for war. To this end, the ‘Rambouillet Peace Agreement’ was formulated. The document demanded complete de facto independence for Kosovo, whilst still allowing the province to influence the rest of Yugoslavia by continuing to send representatives to its federal institutions. Yet, just in case even this one-sided arrangement was accepted by the Yugoslavs, in chapter seven of the agreement, the US inserted a crucial clause: that NATO “personnel shall enjoy . . . with their vehicles, vessels, aircraft and equipment, free and unrestricted passage and unimpeded access throughout the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, including associated airspace and territorial waters”, whilst at the same time being "immune from all legal process, whether civil, administrative or criminal, [and] under all circumstances and at all times, immune from [all laws] governing any criminal or disciplinary offences which may be committed by Nato personnel in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia”. Read more [North Korea's leader Kim Jong-un]N. Korea’s Kim invited to Russia with official visit In other words, Yugoslavia would have to not only submit to a full-scale occupation by NATO, but also give the occupiers the absolute and unaccountable right to abuse the population at will. Such a demand could never have been accepted by any sovereign country. But that, of course, was the point: this was an agreement penned precisely to be rejected, in order to paint the Serbs as the unreasoning aggressors. It worked perfectly: the ‘agreement’ was duly rejected, and the planned blitzkrieg of Yugoslavia followed, with 78 days of unrelenting aerial bombardment. The same ruse was repeated the following year by US President Bill Clinton. At Palestinian-Israeli peace talks at Camp David, he made a proposal for a ‘final settlement’ of the conflict which allowed Israel to keep 80 percent of their illegal settlements along with sovereignty over a patchwork of roads linking them together and thereby cutting the West Bank into unviable bantustans - with refugees permanently denied the right to return to their homes in Israel. As former US president Jimmy Carter commented, “There was no possibility that any Palestinian leader could accept such terms and survive - but official statements from Washington and Jerusalem were successful in placing the entire onus for failure on Yasir Arafat”. Indeed, through the distortions of Western media, a narrative emerged that Israeli President Ehud Barak himself had made this so-called ‘generous offer’, the spurning of which demonstrated the Palestinians hatred for peace and unwillingness to settle for anything less than driving the Jews into the sea. In fact, the Israeli side themselves had never accepted Clinton’s proposal, and had issued twenty pages of concerns they had with it. On the last of the Clinton-chaired meetings - the one from which Barak’s supposed offer emerged, held in Taba in 2001 - Barak later said that “it was plain to me that there was no chance of reaching a settlement… Therefore I said there would be no negotiations and there would be no delegation and there would be no official discussions and no documentation”. Nevertheless, the official narrative, to this day, recalls that the Palestinians rejected the Israelis’ ‘generous offer’ - and therefore only have themselves to blame for their continued slaughter. The EU set up Yanukovych in the same way. In 2008, the EU and Ukraine agreed to negotiate what was supposed to be a trade agreement. Five years in the making, the EU Association Agreement was finally unveiled in 2013. But by then, the EU had included a clause on defense cooperation with the EU, effectively turning the country into an unofficial NATO member. Such a measure was guaranteed - and designed - to tear apart a country like Ukraine, a multiethnic polity with deep and historic ties to both Russia and Europe, whose unity rested on strict adherence to a policy of neutrality in terms of East-West rivalries. Furthermore, Yanokovych had an explicit democratic mandate for such neutrality, having been elected on precisely this basis. The Association agreement was duly rejected, as it was presumably intended to be - setting the stage for the Western-backed ‘Maidan coup’ and civil war which followed and continues to this day. Read more [North Korea's leader Kim Jong Un inspecting intercontinental ballistic rocket Hwasong-15 on November 30, 2017. © KCNA]No sanctions relief for N. Korea until ‘verifiable & irreversible’ denuclearization – Mattis So Western governments certainly have form in crafting proposals designed to be rejected, in order to justify escalation. And the US has every reason for doing so with North Korea today. Trump’s North Korea policy throughout last year was one of warmongering rhetoric and the ratcheting up of tensions. Whilst this was to some extent successful in bullying China and others into agreeing to harsher sanctions, this ‘consensus’ began to fall apart as Trump’s team stepped up their war talk at the end of the year, with defense secretary Mattis warning of “storm clouds...gathering” and national security advisor McMaster claiming that the odds of war were “increasing every day”. This ramping up of tension did not go down well in either Korea, and rapid moves to de-escalate were undertaken, with North Korean involvement in the winter Olympics a symbolic, but important, signifier of greater North-South cooperation to come. Then, in his New Year address, Kim Jong-un began a diplomatic charm offensive with the South which gained rapid results. A summit was set up between the leaders of the two Koreas, which eventually took place in April when Kim Jong-un became the first North Korean leader to cross the border into the South since the Korean war. The summit agreed to pursue denuclearization of the peninsula and to secure a formal Peace Treaty, with an outline peace arrangement to be reached by the end of the year. This emerging detente between the two Koreas has hugely undermined Trump’s warmongering. In an article entitled “As Two Koreas Talk Peace, Trump’s Bargaining Chips Slip Away”, Mark Landler pointed out that “the talk of peace is likely to weaken the two levers that Mr. Trump used to pressure Mr. Kim… A resumption of regular diplomatic exchanges between the two Koreas, analysts said, will inevitably erode the crippling economic sanctions against the North, while Mr. Trump will find it hard to threaten military action against a country that is extending an olive branch”. Landler went on to quote Jeffrey A. Bader, a former Asia advisor to Barack Obama, that, following the North-South rapprochement, said “It becomes awfully hard for Trump to return to the locked-and-loaded, ‘fire and fury’ phase of the relationship”. Worse, “Inside the White House, some worry that Mr. Kim will use promises of peace to peel South Korea away from the United States and blunt efforts to force him to give up his nuclear weapons”. Read more [North Korean envoy Kim Yong Chol talks with US President Donald Trump. © Leah Millis]Trump ‘did not like’ meeting between North Korean leader & Russian foreign minister Trump, therefore, urgently needs to snuff out this rapprochement if he is to return to the bellicosity that marked his Korea policy hitherto. As Landler wrote, “Mr Kim...made a bold bet on diplomacy” - and Trump needs to ensure that it fails. The best way of doing so is by putting himself at the head of it. If Trump is indeed planning to use the Rambouillet ruse to reignite tensions against the North, it is important that he spin his designed-to-be-rejected offer as somehow incredibly generous. And in recent weeks there have indeed been moves in that direction. First of all, Trump has appeared to accept that denuclearization might not need to happen in one fell swoop, telling reporters that whilst “It would certainly be better if it were all in one…. I don’t think I want to totally commit myself.” Next, Trump went out of his way to guarantee Mr. Kim’s safety. “He will be safe. He will be happy. His country will be rich,” the president said. You can already imagine Trump’s words when his ‘generous offer’ gets rejected: “we offered him security. We offered him prosperity. We offered him phased elimination. And he rejected all of it”. Fascinatingly, it turns out that Trump’s national security advisor John Bolton has actually already suggested precisely the Rambouillet ruse. According to the New York Times, “Two weeks before he was recruited as national security adviser, [Bolton] said a meeting between Mr. Trump and Mr. Kim was useful only because it would inevitably fail, and then the United States could move swiftly on to the next phase — presumably a military confrontation… ‘It could be a long and unproductive meeting, or it could be a short and unproductive meeting," he said on Fox News. Even among officials who worry about war, there is sympathy for his view that “failing quickly”would be valuable. Meanwhile, Stratfor’s analysis of the likely prospects for the forthcoming summit concluded that “it may also reinforce the idea that if the two leaders can’t negotiate a way out of the conflict, then perhaps a diplomatic solution isn’t possible and talk of a military solution to the United States’ North Korea problem could return...Without some change, we’ll probably find ourselves back on the path to containment, if not on a course toward military action to end the North Korean nuclear and missile program once and for all”. Whether military action is realistically possible against North Korea, however, remains a serious question. Most analysts agree that the fallout from any retaliation - both against the 28,000 US soldiers stationed in South Korea, and against US allies in Seoul and Kyoto - would be unacceptably high. James Stavridis, former NATO Supreme Allied Commander, is typical in his view that there are “no military options which would result in fewer than several hundred thousand casualties and perhaps as many as 2m to 3m”. So if war is not on the cards, to what end would Trump seek the rejection of his offer? One answer has already been suggested - to scupper the emerging North-South co-operation that threatens to erode US influence on the peninsula. Summit failure would give Trump a perceived ‘moral right’ to bully the South into ending its outreach and returning to the US position of isolating the North. Read more [© Edgar Su]Pentagon will ‘compete vigorously’ with Beijing in South China Sea – Mattis But another reason could lie in Trump’s trade war with China, the opening shots of which have only just been fired. Any supposed North Korean intransigence could provide Trump with cover for initiating secondary sanctions against North Korea’s supposed ‘allies’. Congressional law already allows Trump to initiate secondary sanctions against anyone trading with the victim of primary sanctions, but with the current atmosphere of rapprochement, it is difficult for Trump to justify using these against China at present. A North Korean ‘walk-out’ would provide the perfect excuse for stepping up economic warfare against China under the guise of sanctioning Korea. Indeed, Trump has already been setting up China as a potential scapegoat for any failure to reach a deal, claiming that Kim’s position had hardened following his meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping. “There was a different attitude by the North Korean folks after that meeting,” Trump told reporters recently, “I can’t say that I’m happy about it.” The entire trajectory of Trump is, after all, not one of conciliation, but of escalation - on all fronts. Escalation against immigrants, against the working class, against Iran, against China, and even against his supposed chums in Moscow. There is absolutely no reason to think that North Korea is some kind of magical exception to this golden rule. Setting up a deal guaranteed to be rejected, but which can be spun as incredibly generous, is, of course, no mean feat. This is especially true given that Kim has now repeatedly stated that he is willing to give up his nuclear weapons. Indeed, this possibility cannot be entirely ruled out: after all, North Korea’s conventional capacity alone - not to mention its mutual defense treaty with China - arguably provides as much deterrence as is necessary to prevent an invasion, as those casualty figures quoted above bear out. In this case, the devil will be in the detail - and more specifically in the timings of the granting of concessions. Trump is likely, in my view, to offer what appear to be very generous concessions, but make them contingent on unacceptably obtrusive verification measures or unachievable levels of ‘proof’ before any of them kick in. Perhaps they will just copy and paste chapter seven of the Rambouillet Agreement in its entirety. A secret clause demanding NATO occupation of all of North Korea would probably do the trick. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Thu Jun 7 12:53:26 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 12:53:26 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Federal Judge Sides With Philly Over Sanctuary City Policy - NBC 10 Philadelphia Message-ID: https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Philadelphia-Judge-Sides-With-City-Over-Sanctuary-Cities-Policy-484706271.html ----------------- This Decision by the Federal District Judge in Philadelphia confirms the advice I gave to Urbana in 2016 and before that in 1986--as well as to Evanston, Oak Park, San Francisco, inter alia, when I served as Counsel to the Original Sanctuary Movement. It rejects the arguments made by Illiniwaks Law Dean Iceman Amar that Sanctuary Cities are illegal and unconstitutional. Just recently, the US Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit in Chicago agreed with me and not him--thank heavens! fab From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Jun 7 16:29:16 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 11:29:16 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] "Donbass, don't tell." [R. Szoke] Message-ID: https://www.rt.com/politics/429005-putin-pledges-help-donbass/ The coup in Kiev - another Obama adminitration crime - was legitimately resisted by Donbass. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict —CGE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Jun 7 18:30:51 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 18:30:51 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Mass immigration raids shatter Ohio communities Message-ID: I saw officers with assault rifles, dogs and helicopters everywhere” Mass immigration raids shatter Ohio communities By Eric London and Will Morrow 7 June 2018 Family and co-workers of the immigrants arrested by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and Customs and Border Protection (CBP) described Tuesday’s raids in northern Ohio, the largest so far of the Trump era, as “military-style,” “SWAT-like” and “a nightmare.” The coordinated raids targeted workers at the Corso’s Flower and Garden Center nurseries in Castalia and neighboring Sandusky. The World Socialist Web Sitespoke yesterday with children whose parents were arrested, co-workers whose close friends are gone, and young husbands who were separated from their wives. [http://www.wsws.org/asset/81942480-67b2-4e6d-8f04-a3418972f08O/image.jpg?rendition=image480]Mercedes Witnesses described a scene of total criminality. “They came with donuts,” said Mercedes, a Corso’s worker. “They got all of us into the same area telling us they were officials doing a routine inspection. When we all gathered, they encircled us and took the badges out. They had dogs, helicopters, assault rifles and helmets. We were all crying.” Another source told the WSWS that some agents were disguised as construction workers. Nearby residents said they could hear the raid from their homes. Other witnesses said workers who are US citizens denounced immigration agents at the scene, yelling at them and imploring them to stop. Workers said immigration officials detained several US citizen workers to prevent them from calling co-workers and warning them about the raid. Agents also reportedly ordered documented immigrant workers to bring their passports to work from now on. The workers said they would do no such thing. Last night, dozens of devastated family members gathered at a church in nearby Norwalk. For many, it was the first time they had seen each other since the raid. The room was full of people fighting against time and desperate for information, and most had not even spoken to their detained relatives who were shipped to facilities hours away. Not only do family and friends fear separation by deportation, they are also aware of the deadly possibility of being loaded onto unmarked airplanes destined for violent Central American countries devastated by more than a century of US imperialist exploitation, dictatorship and war. An untold number of children are now parentless. Jerry, an 18-year-old US citizen whose mother was taken in the raid, is now responsible for his younger sister and brother, aged 9 and 12. [http://www.wsws.org/asset/612007a7-0331-4386-b3c2-3d04e9a6f20H/image.jpg?rendition=image480]Jerry with his younger brother and sister “When I received that call I rushed over [to Corso’s] to see my mom,” he said. “I couldn’t. I was detained…. An agent told me to pull over. He handcuffed me and wouldn’t let me see my mom. I saw the bus she was in. It was 20 feet away, but it had tinted windows and I couldn’t see in. I’m thinking that my mom saw me but I couldn’t see her. “It was a horrible experience that no one should experience. Just because my mom is an illegal immigrant trying to support her family in this country, it’s horrible. They treated them like they’re worthless. I saw officers with assault rifles, dogs and helicopters everywhere.” Jerry said he had been saving money to go to college by working in construction from a young age. “But now this has happened I’m going to use some of that money to support my brother and sister.” [http://www.wsws.org/asset/7af698ab-ab9f-47bd-b912-b4adbf2933fP/image.jpg?rendition=image480]Flor and her relative Flor, a high school student whose mother was also arrested Tuesday, said, “I was at work. I was getting phone calls and messages from her. I felt bad because I couldn’t answer the phone because I was too busy working. I finally called her back and she was yelling and screaming: ‘They took me! They took me! Immigration got me!’” Corso’s workers also denounced the raids. One worker, Jerome, told the WSWS, “These are good, hardworking people. They are my friends. I knew these people. I go over to their houses and we have parties together. You can’t fault them for trying to better their lives, for coming here. People are starving where they come from. I’d risk my life to come here too.” Another worker said, “It was chaos. It was horrible what happened because people have children and they didn’t know what to do with them. These are hardworking people and it’s not fair. The women were all crying because they have kids too. I’ve known them for years, they’re hardworking and they’re just trying to better their lives.” A third worker said, “Some kids will now be put into foster care. They had dogs here. There was no way for anyone to hide. They don’t deserve it. They work hard for their families. They were good workers, if they saw you needed help they would offer it to you.” Many Corso’s workers reported that they often worked 80 to 90 hours a week. [http://www.wsws.org/asset/b29ae70f-1056-4672-99e7-126e51fe776A/image.jpg?rendition=image480]Families at the Norwalk meeting Ohio ACLU representative J. Bennett Guess gave a statement to the WSWS: “It was abhorrent the way they were detained, especially without regard for the children. Children were left at daycare centers. These are extremely hard working, low-wage workers who are highly exploited. What happened is a travesty of justice. What we are witnessing is the systematic dismantling of due process by every administration, Democratic and Republican alike.” He added that this was of extreme concern for all, regardless of immigration status: “How you treat your non-citizens is how you will treat your citizens.” Many workers have stories of close calls. Some, including a family of five, have moved out of their home for fear they will be hunted down by ICE. Others reported having family who are too afraid to leave their homes. As these horrific scenes play out, both the Democratic and Republican parties are calling for added “border security”—a term which means more ICE and CBP agents patrolling the country and terrorizing immigrants. Earlier this year, the Democrats supported a Trump-backed bill to hand hundreds of millions of dollars in additional funding to ICE. Some present at yesterday’s Norwalk meeting said they had family and friends who had previously been deported by the Obama administration. Tuesday’s Gestapo-style raid is a warning to the entire working class. The US government is asserting the “right” to launch military raids on workplaces, dragging workers off the job and shipping them away from their families. What is to stop the government from using the same tactic against striking teachers, hauling them off to detention centers when their strikes are made “illegal” by the corporate-controlled courts? If autoworkers protest workplace injuries or line speed, why wouldn’t the government send police in to arrest the “troublemakers” and try to make the problem disappear? The trade unions have done nothing to oppose the establishment of dictatorial conditions in America’s workplaces. Instead, they pit workers against each other based on poisonous nationalism, telling workers in the US that their enemies are not the corporations and the government but workers in Mexico or China. New, rank-and-file committees must be built to protect even the most basic workplace rights of all workers, immigrant and non-immigrant alike. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Jun 8 00:41:18 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 00:41:18 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Attack on Ajamu Baraka at the Left Forum Message-ID: At the recent Left Forum on New York City, a small group of people handed out a flyer attacking Ajamu Baraka of the Black Alliance for Peace for his political orientation on Syria and other issues and held a demonstration at the final plenary session when he started speaking. UNAC has issued the following statement in defense of Ajamu and Black Alliance for Peace, a valued member of UNAC UNAC defense of anti-imperialism 6/6/18 Two organizations used Ajamu Baraka's presence at the recent Left Forum in order to attack anti-imperialism itself. They falsely accuse him of being a defender of genocide and a Donald Trump supporter as a ruse to hide their support of imperialism as carried out not just in Syria but around the world. Ajamu Baraka's history of activism and his role as National Organizer and National Spokesperson for the Black Alliance for Peace (BAP) demonstrate a commitment to democracy, justice, and the rights of all people to self-determination. United National Antiwar Coalition (UNAC) is a partner with BAP on initiatives such as the Coalition Against U.S. Foreign Military Bases. BAP is also represented on the UNAC Coordinating Committee. The two groups work together because we share the same determination to end U.S. state sponsored violence wherever it is carried out. In just one year since its founding, the Black Alliance for Peace has made great strides in reviving the black radical tradition of opposing "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world." While the lies and vitriol directed at Ajamu Baraka were not strictly personal they were in essence attacks carried out against this black led movement as well. BAP's success in a short period of time make it a target of faux leftists whose goal is to legitimize U.S. foreign policy while cynically appearing to oppose it. The attempt to silence a leading black anti-war organization is therefore racist and makes their actions all the more insidious. These organizations reveal themselves to be supporters of the U.S. hegemon, telling slanderous falsehoods in order to hide their true political stance. They have a history of disrupting anti-war actions and forums hosted by UNAC and others whenever an anti-imperialist position on Syria or other issues are being discussed. UNAC stands with everyone who is clear about the necessity of ending the U.S. goal of reaching full spectrum dominance in Syria and everywhere. As such it is vital for us to stand with Black Alliance for Peace and against any effort to denounce its work and its leadership. We encourage other organizations to add their names to this statement or to issue their own statements of support and solidarity. Any U.S. Attack on Syria Is International Gangsterism, by Black Alliance for Peace Recent Statement of the Hands off Syria Coalition, of which UNAC is a founding member -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Jun 8 01:14:59 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 01:14:59 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Ajamu Baraka on Africom Message-ID: https://www.facebook.com/BlackAllianceforPeace/videos/1378909972218424/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Jun 8 15:09:50 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 15:09:50 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The best thing you will hear, from Paul Street, Glen Ford, Bruce Dixon and Chris Hedges Message-ID: https://www.leftforum.org/events/imagining-authentic-21st-century-us-left -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Sat Jun 9 01:33:07 2018 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 20:33:07 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: LBO News from Doug Henwood References: <000000000000fae58d056e2344d4@google.com> Message-ID: Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: > From: LBO News from Doug Henwood > Date: June 8, 2018 at 10:44:04 AM CDT > To: carl at newsfromneptune.com > Subject: LBO News from Doug Henwood > Reply-To: LBO News from Doug Henwood > > > LBO News from Doug Henwood > Contingency: almost every demographic is down > No it’s not a gig economy > Fresh audio product > Contingency: almost every demographic is down > Posted: 07 Jun 2018 07:32 PM PDT > Someone on Twitter, reacting to my last post on contingent employment, wrote this: > > “Contingent workers were more than twice as likely as noncontingent workers to be under age 25.” Profitable corporations are putting lots of young people in incredibly exploitative jobs and making it normal. For the young work is a new hell, and it’s not temporary. > > Workers under the age of 25 are less likely to be contingent than they were 22 years ago. Here’s the detail by demographic group. > > > > The share for workers in the 20–25 age group declined more than the average—especially women. The only groups to see an increase in share were teenage males and, barely, women aged 55–64. > > This is not to say that young workers—or any workers except the professional/managerial elite—have a great thing going. But our critique should be about wages, benefits, working conditions, and our savage lack of a basic welfare state, not about “precarity.” > > > No it’s not a gig economy > Posted: 07 Jun 2018 04:39 PM PDT > Despite the voluble testimony of pundits and bar companions, the world of work is not one of Uber drivers and temp workers. In fact, the share of U.S. employment accounted for by contingent and “alternative” arrangements is lower now than it was in 2005 and 1995. > > That testimony is derived from several original sources. For example, a much ballyhooed 2014 study commissioned by the Freelancers Union—which is not a materially disinterested party—reported that a third of workers are freelancers. The claim of a 2016 paper by Lawrence Katz and Alan Krueger that “all of the net employment growth in the U.S. economy from 2005 to 2015 appears to have occurred in alternative work arrangements” was widely quoted and quickly became folk wisdom. That paper was based on an online survey conducted by the RAND Corporation The survey was small—fewer than 4,000 respondents—and its sample wasn’t very representative of the overall population, a flaw the authors corrected through vigorous statistical handiwork. > > Data released this morning by the Bureau of Labor Statistics should put an end to this chatter. According to a special edition of their Current Population Survey, a monthly poll of 60,000 households conducted jointly with the Census Bureau, just 3.8% of workers were classed as contingent in May 2017, meaning they don’t expect their job to last a year. That’s down from 4.1% in 2005 and 4.9% in 1995. (Reports from the years before 2017 are here.) Tighter definitions show smaller shares, but also down from earlier years. In 2017, 96.2% of workers were noncontingent, compared with 95.1% 22 years earlier. > > The share of workers in “alternative” arrangements was 10.1%. Of those, 6.9% were independent contractors, 1.7% were on-call, and 1.5% were employed by either temp or contract firms. That means that 89.9% of the workforce has a “traditional” job, down 0.2 point from 1995. > > There’s less of a racial pattern to contingency than one might guess: 3.7% of white workers don’t expect their jobs to last, compared to 4.0% of black workers; 4.9% of Asian, and 5.1% of “Hispanic/Latino.” All these shares are down from 1995. Nor is there a vast gender disparity: 3.9% of women, vs. 3.8% of men are contingent. > > And not all independent contractors are freelancers hanging on by a thread: 39% are in managerial or professional occupations, slightly less than their share of the overall workforce. These would include self-employed doctors or consultants. Reflecting that, independent contractors are more likely to be white and male than nonwhite non-men. Other forms of alternative arrangements show surprisingly little variation by race and gender; nonwhites are more likely to be temp workers, but there’s no gender gap at all. Almost all demographic groups show little change from 1995, and most of those changes are downward. > > Of course, not all contingent workers are consultants or contract programmers. Full-time contingent workers earn 77% as much as noncontingent workers; contingent part-timers earn 89% as much as noncontingent part-timers.. Almost three-quarters—73%—have some kind of employer-provided health insurance, compared to 84% of noncontingents. All in all, 55% of contingent workers would like a traditional job. > > “Alternative” workers are better off. Full-time independent contractors make 96% as much as noncontingent full-timers; contract workers (heavily used in tech) make 22% more. Temp workers—0.9% of the workforce—are much worse off, however, making 41% less than the traditionally employed. About three-quarters of independent contractors have employer-provided health insurance, but only two-thirds of temp workers do. > > None of this is to argue that the world of work is a delight. But we should be clear about what the problems are. Precarity isn’t the major problem in the American labor market. It’s that wages are stagnant or worse, benefits are eroding, and much labor is dull, alienating, pointless, and sometimes dangerous. Many people with normal, full-time jobs have a hard time making ends meet, and most households have little or no savings to fall back on in a crisis. Emphasizing precarity only makes workers feel even more powerless than they are. > > > This posting includes an audio/video/photo media file: Download Now > > Fresh audio product > Posted: 07 Jun 2018 02:10 PM PDT > Just added to my radio archive (click on date for link): > > June 7, 2018 Adam Gaffney (see link for articles) on how to get prescription drug prices down • Barry Eichengreen, author of The Populist Temptation, on the nationalist/xenophobic turn (Trump, Brexit, etc.), and on the future of the U.S. dollar > > > You are subscribed to email updates from LBO News from Doug Henwood. > To stop receiving these emails, you may unsubscribe now. Email delivery powered by Google > Google, 1600 Amphitheatre Parkway, Mountain View, CA 94043, United States -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Jun 9 14:50:10 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 14:50:10 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: [Women's March on the Pentagon 2018] ~ Cindy Sheehan with Ann Wright and other peace... References: <5e52fe0a6bf011e8be69000af7c25f18-282f49a8@8941bcc9156560f44064cc456d0f9e198e1d1b0ae2e864f13069511f871eb869> Message-ID: Bonnie J. Caracciolo and Emma Leigh Fiala posted in Women's March on the Pentagon 2018. [https://scontent.fbed1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-1/p100x100/34642278_1815982011787665_6690677685519122432_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=AeEkWBWsNbJIy7pHIlmiozMHt5MFPXg5N--r7yxGe_anjnniZYsaFZaJpWMMwc9dvpMR7BFwbOE1dSq0lFsNqQpGDXnAinAiiCcQgckfrddfjQ&_nc_ad=z-m&_nc_cid=0&oh=f52773aa9e43ce89b322cedb56488987&oe=5BBC78D8] Bonnie J. Caracciolo June 9 at 7:20am ~ Cindy Sheehan with Ann Wright and other peace activists including Veterans for Peace. August 25, 2007 - Kennebunkport, ME [https://scontent.fbed1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s200x200/34800542_1819699724749227_2560735028875100160_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=AeHxYCJ0O34V6A6R-h1xitiaf3tV73A0_igfDwz2wa4hUoDMSkWbeKA3_IizEb5LuMJWc0bLp6kh_z5iAa02dItNlkObm1jphpx1CRKDWRSc_A&_nc_ad=z-m&_nc_cid=0&oh=6c0585a2755f1054ae711b6e22ad3caf&oe=5BB6B1E7] ~ Cindy Sheehan with Ann Wright and other peace activists including Veterans for Peace. August 25, 2... Reply to this email to comment on this post. This message was sent to karenaram at hotmail.com. If you don't want to receive these emails from Facebook in the future, please unsubscribe. Facebook, Inc., Attention: Community Support, 1 Facebook Way, Menlo Park, CA 94025 [https://www.facebook.com/email_open_log_pic.php?mid=56e35f049e8b5G59f6997cG56e2d49bc4f09G3f3] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Jun 9 15:06:37 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 15:06:37 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] A most comprehensive AWARE FLYER by Carl Estabrook, Message-ID: General half-page flyer (recto & verso) for distribution at Farmers' Market, monthly demos, etc.] AMERICANS ARE AGAINST U.S. WAR-MAKING ~ DEMAND AN END TO U.S. KILLING IN OUR NAME Obama and Trump were both elected as anti-war candidates. In office, both sent more U.S. troops to Afghanistan to increase the killing ~ The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan. Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most Americans don’t know that. In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in office he expanded the wars he inherited and vastly increased the war provocations against Russia and Chiina; his drone assassinations were rightly called “the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times.” President Trump, who promised caution and non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same things himself. What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see the killing as justified; they had to agree, in order to get elected. *But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars.* U.S. presidents have killed more than 20 million people in wars around the world since World War II. That war left the U.S. elite in an unprecedented position of world economic dominance. U.S. wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have had the purpose of “maintaining the disparity,” as U.S. diplomat George Kennan wrote in 1948. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they haven’t profited from them. Most Americans are not aware of how much of the world is appalled at what the U.S. government has done in our lifetimes. It is a triumph of the American system of propaganda and intellectual control - the most effective in history - that Americans are able to ignore it. For many years the U.S. has attempted to exercise military control over the Mideast and its energy resources. The U.S. doesn’t need oil from the Mideast, but Mideast gas and oil are needed by America’s economic competitors in Europe and Asia, and so control over them gives the U.S. a major advantage over China, Germany, and other countries - a choke-hold which benefits only the American one percent. In 2003 the U.S. illegally invaded Iraq - and killed perhaps a million people - and now has thousands of troops and mercenaries throughout the Mideast. The U.S. government says that we’re fighting terrorism, but we are in fact creating terrorists in response to our invasions, bombing campaigns, and drone assassinations, which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children. AWARE, the ‘Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort’ of Champaign-Urbana, joins other anti-war groups in the United States and around the world to call upon President Trump to ~ (1) establish a foreign policy based on diplomacy, international law, and human rights; ~ (2) end U.S. wars in the Mideast and war provocations against Russia (in Eastern Europe) and China (in the South China Sea), and stop the drone assassinations; ~ (3) cut military spending by at least 50% and close the more than 800 U.S. military bases on foreign soil (Russia has twelve; China has one); bring U.S. troops (and weapons) home from 3/4 of the world’s countries; ~ (4) stop U.S. support for human rights abusers, notably Israel and Saudi Arabia; and ~ (5) lead on global nuclear disarmament. ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income ### -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Jun 9 15:17:46 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 15:17:46 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Illinois Governor calls for reinstatement of the death penalty Message-ID: Illinois Governor calls for reinstatement of the death penalty By Michael Walters 9 June 2018 Republican Governor Bruce Rauner issued an amendatory veto last month to Illinois state gun control legislation that establishes a 72-hour waiting period for firearm purchases. It would reinstate the death penalty at the state level for murders of two or more people or of police and create a new category of criminal offense called “death penalty murder.” The state of Illinois banned the death penalty in 2011, following an eleven-year moratorium after multiple reports of wrongful convictions emerged. The death penalty remains widely opposed by the state’s residents. The Democratic-controlled Illinois General Assembly can either accept the changes by a simple majority vote in each of the chambers or override the Governor’s veto by a three-fifths vote in each chamber. A third option is that the veto is not acted on and the bill, with its amendatory veto, dies. Rauner’s amendatory veto is an attempt to force the Democratic-controlled General Assembly to approve even more draconian law-and-order measures in order to get the bill’s gun control measures. The original bill passed by the state legislature called for a 72 hour “cooling-off” period on the sale of assault rifles. In addition to reinstating the death penalty, Rauner’s amendment would expand the waiting period to cover all firearms, ban the sale of firearm enhancements that turn semi-automatic guns into fully automatic guns, and establish a legal path for the courts to seize firearms possessed by people identified by their family members or police as “a danger to themselves or others.” At a May 14 conference, Rauner said: “There are plenty of cases where there’s no doubt who’s guilty, and they deserve to give up their life when they take the life of a police officer, who are our heroes, or they take the life of many people.” Rauner acknowledged the long history of wrongful convictions in death penalty cases in absurd fashion, declaring in his amendment: “[T]he only morally justifiable standard of proof in a death penalty case is ‘beyond all doubt.’” The evidentiary standard for criminal conviction in the United States is guilty “beyond a reasonable doubt.” Rauner’s appeal to “beyond all doubt” has no status in US law. Rauner’s effort to reinstate the death penalty in cases where two or more people are murdered and in cases where a police officer is killed echoes various “Blue Lives Matter” laws, proposed in 14 states over the past year, which increase the penalty if the victim is a law enforcement officer. One such bill at the federal level, The Protect and Serve Act of 2018, passed the US House of Representatives 382-35 with the support of 162 of 193 Democrats. The bill calls for a maximum 10-year sentence for anyone who assaults or attempts to assault a law enforcement officer and life imprisonment for murder of a law enforcement officer. Having passed the House, the bill is currently before the US Senate. What is clear is that the billionaire Rauner was using his veto to make a public appeal to the most reactionary elements in the state to vote for him in the upcoming November election. Rauner is seeking re-election against the Democratic Party’s own billionaire candidate, J.B. Pritzker. In the Illinois Republican primary, Rauner narrowly defeated a far-right challenger Jeanne Ives. Ives, who was financed by the far-right activist Uihlein family, appealed to the most reactionary elements within the Republican Party and the financial aristocracy who are angered by Rauner’s inability to deliver on his promises of further deregulating the state, lowering wages and destroying workers’ collective bargaining rights. The Democrats are in no fundamental way opposed to the terms of Rauner’s amendment, as they have elected to open the floor to debate the proposal to bring back the death penalty. Citing their concerns with the lack of time to evaluate the legislation, the Illinois State’s Attorneys Association, made up of both Democrats and Republicans, stated, “We believe that any process by which the government would end a human life should be deliberate and thoughtful, with appropriate safeguards in place, and that the death penalty should be reserved for the most serious offenses and offenders.” When Democratic Governor Pat Quinn signed into law the abolition of the death penalty in 2011, he did so largely as an effort to stem the growing outrage over wrongful convictions and claimed ending the death penalty would improve the fiscal health of the state. From the reinstatement of capital punishment in Illinois in 1977 through 2000, when the moratorium began, the state carried out 12 executions. Over that same period, 20 condemned inmates were taken off death row. Some of these men were exonerated after DNA evidence proved their innocence and other cases collapsed after new trials were ordered by appellate courts. The continued barbaric practice of capital punishment across the US and the effort to revive its use in Illinois in the face popular opposition speaks volumes about the decay of class rule in America. Rauner, and his reactionary call to bring back the death penalty, represents a capitalist class that is openly turning to repressive and authoritarian forms of rule. The few crumbs of progress afforded to the working class, including the abolition of the death penalty, are being clawed back. WSWS.ORG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 9 15:27:29 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 15:27:29 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Illinois Governor calls for reinstatement of the death penalty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Citing their concerns with the lack of time to evaluate the legislation, the Illinois State’s Attorneys Association, made up of both Democrats and Republicans, stated, “We believe that any process by which the government would end a human life should be deliberate and thoughtful, with appropriate safeguards in place, and that the death penalty should be reserved for the most serious offenses and offenders.” Yeah, so notice the Illinois States Attorneys support the reinstitution of the death penalty. They are all shameless! They support the death penalty in order to get elected or re-elected, and then to move on from there to some nice cushy judgeship. They are one of the reasons why I nominated Illinois Governor George Ryan for the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts to abolish the death penalty in Illinois and clearing out the Illinois Death Row, 2/3ds of whom were People of Color. He was among the five finalists for that year. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Peace [mailto:peace-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Karen Aram via Peace Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 10:18 AM To: Peace-discuss List ; peace Subject: [Peace] Illinois Governor calls for reinstatement of the death penalty Illinois Governor calls for reinstatement of the death penalty By Michael Walters 9 June 2018 Republican Governor Bruce Rauner issued an amendatory veto last month to Illinois state gun control legislation that establishes a 72-hour waiting period for firearm purchases. It would reinstate the death penalty at the state level for murders of two or more people or of police and create a new category of criminal offense called “death penalty murder.” The state of Illinois banned the death penalty in 2011, following an eleven-year moratorium after multiple reports of wrongful convictions emerged. The death penalty remains widely opposed by the state’s residents. The Democratic-controlled Illinois General Assembly can either accept the changes by a simple majority vote in each of the chambers or override the Governor’s veto by a three-fifths vote in each chamber. A third option is that the veto is not acted on and the bill, with its amendatory veto, dies. Rauner’s amendatory veto is an attempt to force the Democratic-controlled General Assembly to approve even more draconian law-and-order measures in order to get the bill’s gun control measures. The original bill passed by the state legislature called for a 72 hour “cooling-off” period on the sale of assault rifles. In addition to reinstating the death penalty, Rauner’s amendment would expand the waiting period to cover all firearms, ban the sale of firearm enhancements that turn semi-automatic guns into fully automatic guns, and establish a legal path for the courts to seize firearms possessed by people identified by their family members or police as “a danger to themselves or others.” At a May 14 conference, Rauner said: “There are plenty of cases where there’s no doubt who’s guilty, and they deserve to give up their life when they take the life of a police officer, who are our heroes, or they take the life of many people.” Rauner acknowledged the long history of wrongful convictions in death penalty cases in absurd fashion, declaring in his amendment: “[T]he only morally justifiable standard of proof in a death penalty case is ‘beyond all doubt.’” The evidentiary standard for criminal conviction in the United States is guilty “beyond a reasonable doubt.” Rauner’s appeal to “beyond all doubt” has no status in US law. Rauner’s effort to reinstate the death penalty in cases where two or more people are murdered and in cases where a police officer is killed echoes various “Blue Lives Matter” laws, proposed in 14 states over the past year, which increase the penalty if the victim is a law enforcement officer. One such bill at the federal level, The Protect and Serve Act of 2018, passed the US House of Representatives 382-35 with the support of 162 of 193 Democrats. The bill calls for a maximum 10-year sentence for anyone who assaults or attempts to assault a law enforcement officer and life imprisonment for murder of a law enforcement officer. Having passed the House, the bill is currently before the US Senate. What is clear is that the billionaire Rauner was using his veto to make a public appeal to the most reactionary elements in the state to vote for him in the upcoming November election. Rauner is seeking re-election against the Democratic Party’s own billionaire candidate, J.B. Pritzker. In the Illinois Republican primary, Rauner narrowly defeated a far-right challenger Jeanne Ives. Ives, who was financed by the far-right activist Uihlein family, appealed to the most reactionary elements within the Republican Party and the financial aristocracy who are angered by Rauner’s inability to deliver on his promises of further deregulating the state, lowering wages and destroying workers’ collective bargaining rights. The Democrats are in no fundamental way opposed to the terms of Rauner’s amendment, as they have elected to open the floor to debate the proposal to bring back the death penalty. Citing their concerns with the lack of time to evaluate the legislation, the Illinois State’s Attorneys Association, made up of both Democrats and Republicans, stated, “We believe that any process by which the government would end a human life should be deliberate and thoughtful, with appropriate safeguards in place, and that the death penalty should be reserved for the most serious offenses and offenders.” When Democratic Governor Pat Quinn signed into law the abolition of the death penalty in 2011, he did so largely as an effort to stem the growing outrage over wrongful convictions and claimed ending the death penalty would improve the fiscal health of the state. From the reinstatement of capital punishment in Illinois in 1977 through 2000, when the moratorium began, the state carried out 12 executions. Over that same period, 20 condemned inmates were taken off death row. Some of these men were exonerated after DNA evidence proved their innocence and other cases collapsed after new trials were ordered by appellate courts. The continued barbaric practice of capital punishment across the US and the effort to revive its use in Illinois in the face popular opposition speaks volumes about the decay of class rule in America. Rauner, and his reactionary call to bring back the death penalty, represents a capitalist class that is openly turning to repressive and authoritarian forms of rule. The few crumbs of progress afforded to the working class, including the abolition of the death penalty, are being clawed back. WSWS.ORG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 9 15:29:07 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 15:29:07 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: 2013 Nobel Peace Prize Nomination of Governor George H. Ryan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 10:30 AM To: jmeisner at tribune.com; asweeney at tribune.com; eleventis at tribune.com Subject: 2013 Nobel Peace Prize Nomination of Governor George H. Ryan Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) [cid:7C86D7CC309F4F66B0455235C1A035F0 at PCSBSse81] 2013 Nobel Peace Prize Nomination of Governor George H. Ryan University of Illinois College of Law Professor Francis A. Boyle nominated retired Illinois Governor George H. Ryan for the 2013 Nobel Peace Prize because of his courageous, heroic, and principled opposition to the racist and class-based death penalty system in America. The Illinois General Assembly and Governor Pat Quinn recently abolished the death penalty--a life-long objective of Professor Boyle, a Native Illinoisan. See his article "Teaching Against the Death Penalty," 21 J. Development Alternatives & Areas Studies, No. 1 & 2, at 90-96 (March-June 2002), which recounts his experiences at teaching against the death penalty since his arrival at the College of Law in August of 1978. Together with his former student Karen Conti and her late partner Greg Adamski, they served as Co-Counsel to prevent the execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacey by then Illinois Governor Jim Edgar. The three of them won a Request for a Stay of Execution by the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights to Governor Edgar on the grounds that the Illinois lethal injection procedure constituted torture, cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment. Nevertheless, Governor Edgar violated this Request and illegally tortured Mr. Gacey to death over a period of eighteen minutes. But thanks to Governor George Ryan there had been no similar executions by the State of Illinois for over a decade and now never again! Boyle was elected by the 200,000 members of Amnesty International USA to serve two two- year terms on their Board of Directors from 1988 to 1992. The Nobel Peace Prize Winning Amnesty International is an abolitionist organization that will work to prevent the execution of any human being for any reason. So will Professor Boyle. Amnesty International also opposes the torture of human beings for any reason. So does Professor Boyle. For information : Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (Voice) 217-244-1478 (Fax) (personal comments only) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image10.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19572 bytes Desc: Image10.jpg URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 9 15:33:55 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 15:33:55 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: [deathpenaltyusa] Illinois prof again nominates George Ryan for Nobel Peace Prize In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: deathpenaltyusa at yahoogroups.com [mailto:deathpenaltyusa at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sandrine Ageorges-Skinner Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 4:50 PM To: deathpenaltyusa at yahoogroups.com Subject: [deathpenaltyusa] Illinois prof again nominates George Ryan for Nobel Peace Prize Illinois prof again nominates George Ryan for Nobel Peace Prize BY KEVIN McDERMOTT > kmcdermott at post-dispatch.com > 217-782-4912 Posted: Monday, January 31, 2011 2:40 pm SPRINGFIELD, Ill. -- Illinois ex-Gov.George Ryan, currently serving a 6-1/2 year prison sentence for corruption, should win the Nobel Peace Prize for freezing all executions in Illinois and commuting the sentences of more than 160 death-row inmates, a University of Illinois law professor says. Professor Francis A. Boyle has made an annual crusade out of attempting to secure the coveted prize for Ryan, a Republican who was convicted in 2006 of using his public office to enrich himself and his associates. As an international law professor, Boyle is allowed to nominate people for the Nobel. ``Thanks to Governor George Ryan there have been no . . . executions by the State of Illinois for over a decade,'' Boyle noted in an email announcing his latest nomination of Ryan. In fact, Ryan's decade-old moratorium on executions laid the groundwork for a bill that passed the Legislature this month to abolish the death penalty in Illinois altogether. Gov. Pat Quinnhasn't yet signed it, but many expect him to. What are Ryan's chances of winning a Nobel? Probably the same as they've been in past years. Certainly, the prize has gone to political prisoners--but to give one to a guy serving an apparently valid sentence for political corruption would raise some eyebrows. Many death penalty opponents who admire what Ryan did say his corruption conviction is a separate and irrelevant thing. Boyle has taken it a step further, claiming (with an unusual theory, and no proof, it should be noted) that Ryan was purposefully prosecuted by the Feds because of his anti-death-penalty work.Here's a 2006 story we did on Boyle's claim. Ryan's wife, Lura Lynn Ryan, has terminal cancer. Ryan has so far been denied a furlough from prison to be with her in their Kankakee, Ill., home. Copyright 2011 www.STLtoday.com http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/political-fix/article_bfc8ee00-2d7e-11e0-ae18-00127992bc8b.html __._,_.___ Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) Recent Activity: Visit Your Group MARKETPLACE Get great advice about dogs and cats. Visit the Dog & Cat Answers Center. ________________________________ Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now. [Yahoo! Groups] Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest * Unsubscribe * Terms of Use . __,_._,___ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 9 15:36:32 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 15:36:32 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: [florida_support] George H. Ryan is nominated for the 2010 Nobel Peace Prize In-Reply-To: <67C7FACF89414B518A8E43371B8D8BC9@siljedmf4rv7q7> References: <67C7FACF89414B518A8E43371B8D8BC9@siljedmf4rv7q7> Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: florida_support at yahoogroups.com [mailto:florida_support at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of denmark Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 10:47 AM To: florida_support at yahoogroups.com Subject: [florida_support] George H. Ryan is nominated for the 2010 Nobel Peace Prize [2010ryan.jpg (14089 bytes)] FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - JANUARY 6, 2010 George H. Ryan is nominated for the 2010 Nobel Peace Prize Francis A. Boyle, long-standing, distinguished Professor of International Law and Human Rights, announces his nomination of retired Illinois Governor George H. Ryan for the 2010 Nobel Peace Prize. "The lives of about 3297 people on death rows throughout the United States of America stand in the balance. For the sake of them all, I respectfully request that you award the 2010 Nobel Peace Prize to George Ryan," Boyle states in nominating Ryan. The former Illinois governor's courageous opposition to the death penalty initiated the groundwork for the Moratorium Movement when in the year 2000 he declared the Illinois death penalty moratorium and emptied Illinois' death row, the first such action in this country. Due directly through Gov. Ryan's pioneering efforts, the number of death sentences and the number of executions carried out in this country has reached a historical low, and has given promise to the end of the death penalty in the United States. The year 2009 marked a historical landmark with the publication of The Death Penalty Information Center's report "The Death Penalty in 2009: Year End Report" on December 18, noting that the country is expected to finish 2009 with the fewest death sentences since the U.S. Supreme Court reinstated the death penalty in 1976. Eleven states considered abolishing the death penalty this year, a significant increase in legislative activity from previous years, as the high costs and lack of measurable benefits associated with this punishment troubled lawmakers. In 2009 New Mexico became the 15th American state to repeal the death penalty. According to Boyle: "Nothing could strike a more powerful blow against the death penalty in the United States and around the world" than for the Nobel Peace Prize Committee to give their 2010 Award to Ryan. FOR INFORMATION CONTACT: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954(voice) 217-244-1478(fax) fboyle at law.uiuc.edu __._,_.___ Reply to sender | Reply to group Messages in this topic (2) Recent Activity: * New Members 1 Visit Your Group Start a New Topic MARKETPLACE Going Green: Your Yahoo! Groups resource for green living [Yahoo! Groups] Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest * Unsubscribe * Terms of Use . __,_._,___ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 15538 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 9 15:38:38 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 15:38:38 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: George H. Ryan is nominated for the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: denmark [mailto:denmark at online.no] Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 12:43 PM To: Boyle, Francis ; Dianne ; musserod at bright.net Subject: George H. Ryan is nominated for the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize ----- Original Message ----- From: denmark To: msneed at suntimes.com Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:42 PM Subject: George H. Ryan is nominated for the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize [Image10a.jpg] FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - JANUARY 21, 2009 George H. Ryan is nominated for the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize Francis A. Boyle, long-standing Professor of International Law and Human Rights, has nominated retired Illinois Governor George H. Ryan for the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize. George Ryan's courageous opposition to the death penalty initiated the groundwork for the Moratorium Movement when in the year 2000 he declared the Illinois death penalty moratorium, the first in this country. The moratorium placed on all executions by the United States Supreme Court in 2007 can directly be attributed to Ryan's principled vision and tireless work to guarantee human rights by abolishing the death penalty both in the United States and around the world. Although the monumental development of a moratorium was a short-lived reality, the number of death sentences and the number of executions carried out in this country have reached a historical low, and has given promise to the end of the death penalty in the United States -- all thanks to the inspired and driven dedication of one man, retired Illinois Governor George H. Ryan. In the US 37 executions took place in 2008, marking a 14-year low and continuing a downward trend that began in 2000. 95% of all executions occurred in the South in 2008; 49% were in one state - Texas. As stated by Professor Boyle, "George Ryan is the beginning of the end of the death penalty in America. Thanks to George Ryan, the death penalty is on its last legs here in the United States. It is up to the rest of us to kill it off!" FOR INFORMATION CONTACT: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954(voice) 217-244-1478(fax) fboyle at law.uiuc.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11991 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 9 15:41:55 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 15:41:55 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: George H. Ryan is nominated for the 2008 Nobel Peace Prize In-Reply-To: <09fb01c850b1$fc5cc1f0$2302a8c0@TVROOM> References: <09fb01c850b1$fc5cc1f0$2302a8c0@TVROOM> Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Dianne Abshire [mailto:afua at woh.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:18 PM To: Boyle, Francis Subject: George H. Ryan is nominated for the 2008 Nobel Peace Prize [cid:image001.jpg at 01D3FFDE.7BCDBDE0] FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - JANUARY 6, 2008 George H. Ryan is nominated for the 2008 Nobel Peace Prize University of Illinois Law and Human Rights Professor Francis A. Boyle has nominated George H. Ryan for the 2008 Nobel Peace Prize. The current growing moratorium movement spreading across the United States is a reality directly connected to Ryan's courageous opposition to the death penalty both in the US and around the world, and to his visionary action to impose the first US moratorium against the death penalty in 2000. Due to George Ryan's commitment to humanitarian principles and his tireless efforts to create dialogue in support of seeking justice for the 3,350 men and women warehoused on death rows throughout the US, the United States Supreme Court has in effect imposed a nation wide moratorium on executions. George Ryan's dream to end governmental killing has temporarily come to fruition. The growing momentum for the outright abolition of the death penalty in the United States is due to the heroic efforts of George H. Ryan. He has done more effective work against the death penalty than the entire American Abolitionist Movement put together. For that reason the world should award him the 2008 Nobel Peace Prize. For information contact : Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) fboyle at law.uiuc.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19572 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 9 15:44:06 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 15:44:06 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: Former Illinois Governor George Ryan Nominated For The 2007 Nobel Peace Prize In-Reply-To: <04e001c744a0$4eb8ab90$6400a8c0@none5kl5rldjo3> References: <04e001c744a0$4eb8ab90$6400a8c0@none5kl5rldjo3> Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: sissel [mailto:denmark at online.no] Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 12:56 PM To: Rick Halperin ; delliotDC at aol.com; Karl Keys ; Richard Dieter ; Rob Warden Cc: committee at stopcapitalpunishment.org Subject: Former Illinois Governor George Ryan Nominated For The 2007 Nobel Peace Prize [Image10.jpg (19572 bytes)] FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - January 30, 2007. Former Illinois Governor George Ryan Nominated For The 2007 Nobel Peace Prize University of Illinois College of Law Professor Francis A. Boyle has nominated former Illinois Governor George Ryan for the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize because of his courageous and heroic opposition to the death penalty system in America. Despite tremendous opposition and criticism, Ryan single-handedly started what he calls a "rational discussion" on capital punishment in 2000 when he declared the Illinois death penalty moratorium. To this day, despite paying a heavy personal price for his courage, integrity, and principles, Ryan remains committed to the principle of seeking justice for the poor and oppressed. Ryan now takes his message globally, recently speaking before the United Nations Commission on Human Rights in Switzerland, continuing to initiate dialogue against the barbaric use of capital punishment around the world. Directly because of Ryan's imposed 2000 moratorium, a tidal wave of change has gained momentum in the United States. Death sentences are at a 30-year low, while the number of executions has dropped to a 10-year-low. And for the first time in two decades, more Americans now support life sentences over death as the proper punishment for capital crimes. New Jersey's governor signed into law a one-year moratorium on executions due to public demand, and Florida's Governor Bush suspended all executions until methods of execution can be examined in that state. California now has an imposed moratorium, and Ohio's new governor has stated moral questions concerning the use of capital punishment. The American Bar Association has also now declared that there should be a blanket moratorium on all executions in the United States because of widespread problems with the quality of defense given to poor and indigent capital defendants. As Governor Ryan exposed to the country in 2000, the burden of capital punishment consistently falls upon the poor, the ignorant and the forgotten underpriviledged members of society, and is often used as a racist institution against people of color. The United States' attitude towards capital punishment is undeniably changing, and as a direct result of Ryan's historical acts as former Governor of Illinois. Ryan exposed capital punishment to be a distorted means of justice rife with flaws and defects, and he began the dialogue that will one day abolish capital punishment in America. Professor Francis A. Boyle has stated that, "George Ryan is the beginning of the end of the death penalty in America," and it is for this reason that he richly deserves to win the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize. Joining him on the nomination papers were Chicago Attorneys Karen Conti, Greg Adamski and Jerome Boyle. http://www.thenobelpeaceprizetoryan.com/ryan/RyanNomination2007.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19572 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 9 15:47:42 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 15:47:42 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: George Ryan for the 2006 Nobel Peace Prize In-Reply-To: <003701c66251$36c39c20$9000a8c0@silbekk> References: <003701c66251$36c39c20$9000a8c0@silbekk> Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: sissel [mailto:denmark at online.no] Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 2:01 PM To: Boyle, Francis Cc: sissel Subject: George Ryan for the 2006 Nobel Peace Prize [Image10.jpg (20536 bytes)] Former Illinois Governor George Ryan for the 2006 Nobel Peace Prize University of Illinois College of Law Professor Francis A. Boyle nominated former Illinois Governor George Ryan for the 2006 Nobel Peace Prize because of his courageous, heroic and principled opposition to the racist and class-based Death Penalty system in America. Due to George Ryan`s continued and proven commitment to seek justice for the poor, the oppressed, the downtrodden, and People of Color in America, he has become one of a handful of courageous voices calling for an end to the repressive political, legal, and social climate that keeps the death penalty alive in this country. George Ryan has performed more effective work against the death penalty than the entire American abolitionist movement put together. As a consequence he has drawn the vindictive attention of the stridently pro-death penalty U.S. Department of Justice. It is no coincidence that the racist and pro-death penalty U.S. Department of Justice indicted George Ryan for allegedly misappropriating $167,000 over a ten-year period of time soon after he had liberated 167 human beings from the Illinois death row, two-thirds of whom were People of Color. This indictment and persecution were designed to send a message to George Ryan and to the American abolitionist movement that the U.S. Department of Justice will continue to fight its rearguard action against the mortally wounded death penalty system in America. It was Governor George Ryan who inflicted that grievous blow upon the entire American death penalty system. He is now paying a very heavy price for his courage, integrity, and principles. For that reason, he richly deserves to win the 2006 Nobel Peace Prize. Governor Ryan is one of 191 registered Candidates for the 2006 Nobel Peace Prize. The name of the recipient will be announced in mid-October 2006. Professor Boyle may be contacted for comments or interviews at the at the following: Phone: 1-217-333-7954 Fax: 1-217-244-1478 Email: committee at stopcapitalpunishment.org Website: http://www.stopcapitalpunishment.org Visit our web site for complete information about Ryan's work and our campaign to support him. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image10.jpg Type: application/octet-stream Size: 19572 bytes Desc: Image10.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19572 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 9 15:50:13 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 15:50:13 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: [NYTr] MLK Day/former IL Gov Ryan Nominated for Nobel Peace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: nytr at olm.blythe-systems.com [mailto:nytr at olm.blythe-systems.com] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 3:18 PM To: undisclosed-recipients Subject: [NYTr] MLK Day/former IL Gov Ryan Nominated for Nobel Peace Via NY Transfer News Collective * All the News that Doesn't Fit sent by Francis Boyle - Jan 13, 2005 Former Illinois Gov. Ryan Nominated for 2005 Nobel Peace Prize On Monday, January 17, 2005 the United States of America will celebrate the annual National Holiday in honor of the late, great and martyred civil rights leader Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., a Nobel Peace Prize Laureate. To mark this occasion, University of Illinois College of Law Professor Francis A. Boyle has nominated former Illinois Governor George Ryan for the 2005 Nobel Peace Prize because of his courageous and heroic opposition to the racist death penalty system in America, which differentially targets African Americans. 42% of America's death row population are African Americans. Of those defendants executed in the United States since 1976, 34% were African Americans. Of the 167 persons whom George Ryan liberated from Illinois' racist death row two years ago, about 60% were African Americans. Illinois proudly boasts that it is "The Land of Lincoln": President Abraham Lincoln, a resident of Illinois, freed the slaves. In the tradition of Lincoln, Governor Ryan freed over 100 descendants of slaves from Illinois' racist death row. As Dr. King's associate the Reverend Jesse Jackson has persuasively argued, today the administration of the Death Penalty in America is nothing more than a system of "Legal Lynching" (1996) against African Americans and other People of Color. The time has long passed for America to eliminate this racist and barbaric measure of state terrorism directed against African Americans, other People of Color, and poor Whites. Toward that end, George Ryan has performed more effective work against the racist death penalty system in America than the entire American Abolitionist Movement combined. For that reason, he richly deserves to win the 2005 Nobel Peace Prize. Just as the elimination of slavery in America emanated from "The Land of Lincoln," so too the final elimination of the death penalty from America shall be traced back to George Ryan and the State of Illinois. Francis A. Boyle * Search the NYTr Archives at: http://olm.blythe-systems.com/pipermail/nytr/ To subscribe or unsubscribe or change your settings via the web, visit: http://olm.blythe-systems.com/mailman/listinfo/nytr ================================================================= NY Transfer News Collective * A Service of Blythe Systems Since 1985 - Information for the Rest of Us 339 Lafayette St., New York, NY 10012 http://www.blythe.org e-mail: nyt at blythe.org ================================================================= From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 9 15:53:19 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 15:53:19 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: [thenobelpeaceprizetoryan] Message-ID: http://www.thenobelpeaceprizetoryan.com/Ryan2004.htm [cid:image001.jpg at 01D3FFE0.1239A040] FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - December 16, 2003 GOVERNOR GEORGE H. RYAN TO BE NOMINATED FOR THE 2004 NOBEL PEACE PRIZE As the deadline approaches for the 2004 Nobel Peace Prize nominations, Francis Boyle, Professor of International Law and Human Rights at the University of Illinois, has decided to re-nominate ex Governor George H. Ryan of Illinois. Professor Boyle nominated Ryan last year and explains his decision to nominate him again as follows. "Since retiring as Illinois Governor, George Ryan has launched a one-made crusade all over the world against the death penalty. He has probably done more effective work against the death penalty than all the rest of the American Abolitionists put together" states Professor Boyle. After three years of thorough review of all capital cases in his State, George Ryan declared the capital punishment system in Illinois "broken" and commuted the sentences of all 167 inmates sitting on Death Row in Illinois jails on January 11th, 2003. Since then he has been actively campaigning in the United States and in Europe in an attempt to bring the use of the death penalty in the USA to an end. The Death Penalty is a system, which cannot be fixed. It is broken and flawed. Human justice will never be infallible. Ryan has been appointing Honorary Chairman of the European activist group, Hands Off Cain. In this capacity he lead the campaign to have the European Parliament petition the United Nations to pass a resolution demanding that the US stop using Capital Punishment. Capital Punishment is contrary to all International Human Rights codes and the USA is the only major so called democracy still practicing this Human Rights violation. The USA murders more of their own citizens in the name of justice than any other country in the world with the exception of China and Iran. That fact notwithstanding, the task of bringing this practice to an end in USA is enormous. The Campaign to Support George Ryan for the Nobel Peace Prize believes that international support would be an important aid to help Ryan continue his fight to end the Death Penalty. George Ryan has shown courage and strength in his continuing struggle. It is commonly rumored that he was among the top hand full of finalists for the 2003 award, which was won by Shirin Ebadi of Iran. With our support we trust that 2004 will be the year that George Ryan wins the Nobel Peace Prize. And the USA is given one more message that the rest of the democratic world abhors capital punishment. Professor Boyle may be contacted for comments or interviews at the at the following: Phone: 1-217-333-7954 Fax: 1-217-244-1478 Email: committee at stopcapitalpunishment.org Website: http://www.stopcapitalpunishment.org Visit our web site for complete information about Ryan's work and our campaign to support him. ________________________________ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thenobelpeaceprizetoryan/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: thenobelpeaceprizetoryan-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19572 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 9 15:57:33 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 15:57:33 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Nobel for Ryan Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: LexisNexis Print Delivery [mailto:lexisnexis at prod.lexisnexis.com] Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 4:47 AM     Print Number: 1822:9440661             Name: FAB Selected Library: NEWS Selected File(s): 90DAYS       Update Schedule: Daily    Report Format: FULL       Date Saved: July 01, 2004 Previous Results: 50      Last Update: August 30, 2004 Last Update Results: 1      Next Update: August 31, 2004 Total Results (Aug 30): 51 Note: 1 of 1 DOCUMENT Copyright 2004 Copley News Service Copley News Service August 28, 2004 Saturday SECTION: WASHINGTON WIRE LENGTH: 1199 words HEADLINE: Professor nominates former Illinois governor for Nobel Prize BYLINE: Clare Howard Copley News Service BODY:    Francis A. Boyle recognized before him a man "wrestling with his soul." He witnessed the rare public spectacle of a seasoned politician unable to reconcile his nascent personal moral convictions with the public policy he was elected to enforce.    Boyle watched the governor of a major industrial state publicly struggle with his position on the death penalty. He watched Illinois Gov. George Ryan learn too much to endorse a system which both Ryan and Boyle believe is riddled with inconsistency and injustice.    Boyle said, "I watched Ryan wrestling with his soul, and I was stunned. It was a remarkable struggle, and it touched me."    A law professor at the University of Illinois, Boyle is point man for an international committee advancing the nomination of Ryan for the Nobel Peace Prize in recognition of Ryan's work on capital punishment.    The two men have never met. They do not know personal details about each other. They're an unlikely team. Boyle is a lifelong, Harvard-educated abolitionist and activist. Ryan is a Republican law-and-order conservative who voted in favor of re-establishing the death penalty when he was in the state Legislature.    It was as governor that Ryan had a painful change of conscience based, in part, on work done by journalism students at Northwestern University. The students were able to establish the innocence of a man on death row. Their work precipitated other revelations that brought into question the reliability of the criminal justice system.    During a recent interview in his office at the University of Illinois in Champaign, Boyle said he watched as Ryan suffered publicly for his position. That's when Boyle decided to use his special qualification as a professor of international law to nominate Ryan for the Nobel Peace Prize.    Boyle had been asked to make nominations of other people in the past and had always declined. Ryan is his first nomination, and it's based on his own initiative.    Since making the decision, Boyle has nominated Ryan for the past two years. Last year, Boyle was told Ryan reportedly was among the top five contenders for the 2003 award. Also among the top five were Pope John Paul II; Shirin Ebadi, who won the award; Vaclav Havel; and Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva.    This spring, Boyle received a letter confirming his second nomination of Ryan for the 2004 prize, with results to be announced Oct. 15.    Boyle beefed up his 2004 nomination with a copy of the documentary "Deadline" that aired on "Dateline NBC" last month. He also reminded the Nobel committee that the indictments against Ryan announced in December cannot be used to presume any guilt.    Boyle is outspoken in his belief the indictments are retaliation for Ryan's position on the death penalty, in defiance of President George W. Bush and Attorney General John Ashcroft who want to expand the death penalty.    "Clear-cut retaliation," Boyle said.    The Nobel committee gradually has moved beyond recognition of a person's good work and has begun to recognize people for the future impact of their work as well, Boyle said.    "The award is given to influence the future, not just reward the past," he said, noting such a philosophical shift leverages Ryan's nomination.    "Education will change the public's perception of the death penalty," Boyle said, citing his own international human rights class at the University of Illinois as an example.    At the start of class, most students slightly favor the death penalty. After reviewing facts and arguing perspectives, most students favor abolition of the death penalty, the professor said.    "We spend two weeks looking at all the arguments in favor of the death penalty. We look at why they are wrong," said Boyle, an avowed abolitionist who "tells students flat out how I stand."    Boyle said he watched in amazement as Ryan set up his special commission to study the death penalty with noted members, including former U.S. Sen. Paul Simon and author Scott Turow, who also is an attorney.    When the report finally was issued and the Legislature failed to implement any recommendations, Ryan issued his blanket clemency.    Co-chairman of the special commission was Frank McGarr, former chief judge of the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois.    McGarr said he is not in favor of total abolition of the death penalty but is disappointed the Illinois Legislature did not implement more of the recommendations of the commission's two-year study.    "I'd like to see total reform of the system leading up to the death penalty," he said. "I am not talking about total elimination but use very rarely and only in the most extreme situations."    McGarr said he had little contact with Ryan before or after appointment of the special commission and believes that gives the recommendations of the commission even more credibility because of their total independence.    David Protess, journalism professor at Northwestern University and founder of the Medill Innocence Project, said he is grateful Ryan took the results of the project's death penalty work and used the information to affect public policy.    "He is an excellent candidate for the Nobel prize. He has demonstrated great courage, and (this process) shows the potential of journalism," Protess said.    He and his students are examining capital punishment cases in other states and are finding error rates even greater than in Illinois.    "The problem in our state is the tip of the iceberg in an epidemic of wrongful convictions," he said. "George Ryan took a bold and courageous stand."    Protess said retaliation comes with that kind of decisiveness; however, he can't see the link between Ryan's capital punishment work and the indictments against him.    "He took a bold and courageous stand. The public is yearning for that in our elected officials," Protess said.    Boyle does link the indictments with the former governor's capital punishment work.    "The reaction to Ryan has been incredibly negative. Everyone is beating up on him from legislators to families of victims," he said. "I tried to figure out what I could do. As a professor of international law, I'm qualified to make this nomination."    He organized an international committee of lawyers and a psychiatrist to advise on the 2004 nomination. In the meantime, indictments were issued against Ryan.    "We waited. We consulted. We all agreed, he should be nominated again," Boyle said. "None of this Nobel work has been organized with Ryan. I stay away from him."    Boyle has received his share of threats for his abolitionist work.    "I have a wife and three sons. I do not want vicious criminals out on the streets at night," he said, acknowledging that the process of advancing abolition of the death penalty has been more difficult for Ryan.    "He's paying a pretty terrible price," Boyle said. "The virtue of Gov. Ryan is that he's made people think about the issue."    Boyle believes the death penalty still exists in the United States when it's been outlawed in most of the civilized world because American society glorifies violence as a means to solve problems.    "Gov. Ryan gives us all hope that reason can prevail," Boyle said. LOAD-DATE: August 29, 2004                                                                          102QTM ********** Print Completed ********** Time of Request: August 30, 2004 05:42 AM EDT Print Number: 1822:9440661 Number of Lines: 83 Number of Pages: 1 From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 9 15:59:14 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 15:59:14 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: George Ryan Nominated for 2004 Nobel Peace Prize In-Reply-To: <41356877.20040126140901@compar.com> References: <41356877.20040126140901@compar.com> Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Bob Wakfer [mailto:bob at compar.com] Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 1:09 PM To: committee at stopcapitalpunishment.org Subject: George Ryan Nominated for 2004 Nobel Peace Prize [http://www.stopcapitalpunishment.org/images/NPP-201.jpg] FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE -- January 25, 2004 George Ryan Nominated for 2004 Nobel Peace Prize In an interesting convergence of events, George Ryan, ex Governor of Illinois, has been prominent in the news this weekend. All these events are as a result of his courageous action on Jan. 11, 2003 of commuting the sentences of 167 inmates awaiting execution on Illinois Death Row. On Friday Jan. 23, Francis Boyle, Professor of International Law and Human Rights at the University of Illinois, re-nominated Ryan for the 2004 Nobel Peace Prize. Professor Boyle nominated Ryan last year and explains his decision to nominate him again as follows. " During the past year George Ryan has attempted to generate a wave of opposition to the death penalty all over the world. George Ryan has done more effective work against the death penalty than all of us American Abolitionists put together. For these reasons I believe that George Ryan has, in the words of Alfred Nobel, "conferred the greatest benefit on mankind." George Ryan has done the most and best work for fraternity among nations. Also in the news, has been Ryan's indictment on fraud and racketeering charges. Under the United States Constitution, just like anyone else, Ryan is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to the unanimous satisfaction of twelve men and women sitting on a jury. It is the opinion of the Committee to Support Ryan's nomination that his work against the horror of the Death Penalty stands alone and apart from and transcends any alleged wrongdoing. History will remember him for his solitary, brave and unparalleled contribution to the sacred cause of Abolition. Professor Boyle and the Committee also bring to your attention the fact that Ryan communicated the sentences of 167 inmates and the Government has indicted him on charges of having defrauded the state of $167,000. Is this a coincidence or is this retribution? On Friday the Illinois Supreme Court upheld Ryan's constitutional right as Governor to commute these sentences. "We believe that the grant of authority given the governor .. is sufficiently broad to allow former Governor Ryan to do what he did," wrote Justice Bob Thomas of Wheaton, who authored the court's opinion. Also directly related to his action, Ryan and his family attended the Sundance Film Festival this weekend to view a film that has been made about his ground breaking and bold initiative. "Deadline," follows the turbulent debate that erupted when Northwestern University journalism students showed that innocent men had been condemned to death row. Thirteen men were eventually found to have been wrongly convicted and Ryan declared a moratorium on capital punishment in the state. This initative culminated in the clearing Death Row in the days immediately before his term ended. "The death penalty system and the laws of this country need to be fixed," Ryan said Sunday night at a launch party for the documentary in Park City. "When we're talking about execution, if we can't have a perfect system -- which I don't believe we can -- then we shouldn't have a system like that in place," he said. George Ryan has shown courage and strength in his continuing struggle. It is commonly rumored that he was among the top hand full of finalists for the 2003 award, which was won by Shirin Ebadi of Iran. The United States stands alone among Western Nations in its use of the Death Penalty. By rewarding the Nobel Peace Prize to George H. Ryan this august and respected institution can send yet another message indicating how abhorrent and unacceptable the death penalty is to all of Europe and many other countries of the world. Professor Boyle may be contacted for comments or interviews at the at the following: Phone: 1-217-333-7954 Fax: 1-217-244-1478 Email: committee at stopcapitalpunishment.org Visit our web site for complete information about Ryan's work and our campaign to support him. Website: http://www.stopcapitalpunishment.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 9 16:12:12 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 16:12:12 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: ILLINOIS GOV. RYAN NOMINATED FOR NOBEL PEACE PRIZE In-Reply-To: <001001c2be9e$af477040$acff1c41@woh.rr.com> References: <001001c2be9e$af477040$acff1c41@woh.rr.com> Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: afua [mailto:afua at woh.rr.com] Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 7:28 PM To: Boyle, Francis Subject: ILLINOIS GOV. RYAN NOMINATED FOR NOBEL PEACE PRIZE [cid:image001.gif at 01D3FFE2.B6D3EC30] FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - January 17, 2003 BY THE CAMPAIGN TO SUPPORT THE NOMINATION OF GOVERNOR GEORGE H. RYAN FOR THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE Ryan's Nobel Nomination Completed and Filed January 16, 2003: It is official: George Ryan is now a Nobel Peace Prize Nominee. Francis A. Boyle announced "I have today filed the Nomination by fax with the Nobel Peace Prize Committee in Norway. StopCapitalPunishment.org will now focus its efforts on promoting and lobbying on behalf of Governor Ryan to be awarded the 2003 Nobel Peace Prize." Francis A. Boyle, Professor of Law, University of Illinois College of Law in Champaign, a member of the Campaign to nominate George H. Ryan for the Nobel Peace Prize made good on his promise by completing and filing the nomination papers recommending ex Governor Ryan of Illinois for the Nobel Peace Prize late yesterday. Professor Boyle noted that "By exposing the inhumanity of capital punishment in the United States, George H. Ryan has, in the words of Alfred Nobel, "conferred the greatest benefit on mankind."" The reasons to which Boyle referred are well documented and many. The highlights are the moratorium on the death penalty that Ryan declared in 2000, culminating with his courageous and historic exonerations of January 10th and the commutation of all the remaining Illinois death row prisoner's sentences on January 11th, just two days before he officially left office. Ryan's actions have been the subject of both praise and bitter attack. But one thing is certain; the future of the Death Penalty in the United States has been irrevocably changed. George W. Bush who presided over the execution of more people in Texas than any other Governor in history - 156 souls by actual count - was rarely or ever questioned about this in his run for the Presidency. In the aftermath of George Ryan's groundbreaking action it is hard to imagine this ever happening again. Phone: 1-217-333-7954 Fax: 1-217-244-1478 Email: committee at stopcapitalpunishment.org Website: http://www.stopcapitalpunishment.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 19848 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 9 16:17:03 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 16:17:03 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis [mailto:FBOYLE at LAW.UIUC.EDU] Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 10:02 AM To: 'nppryan at compar.com' Subject: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty Importance: High Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. File:5.2\deathpen.#2 Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign, IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (voice) 217-244-1478 (fax) fboyle at law.uiuc.edu (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: Boyle, Francis Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:15 AM To: 'Multiple recipients of list' Subject: Teaching Against the Death Penalty TEACHING AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY: THE EXECUTION OF JOHN WAYNE GACY by Francis A. Boyle Professor of Law During almost two decades of teaching, one of the many subjects I taught for several years was substantive criminal law to about 70 first year law students. Each semester I would set aside in my course about two weeks of class sessions to deal with the death penalty. I believe that at the outset of my course a majority of the students probably supported the death penalty for one reason or another. Therefore, the task I always set for myself over those six or so class sessions was to turn that majority into a minority and thus to produce an abolitionist majority. During the course of this process, there were a number of arguments put forth by my obviously intelligent students to justify the death penalty. First came their argument based on deterrence. As we know, however, there is no unequivocal empirical evidence to prove that the death penalty deters anything. Indeed, over 50% of all homicides committed in the United States of America are what we law professors call "crimes of passion," which, by definition, cannot be deterred in the first place. In these cases, people kill in the heat of emotional and physical passion when the mental calculations presumed by the theory of deterrence are irrelevant. Likewise, a large percentage of homicides occur under the influence of alcohol when mental reasoning processes are substantially impaired and thus cannot be deterred. To the contrary, what little empirical evidence we have seems to indicate that in fact the imposition of the death penalty has a brutalizing effect on the target population by increasing the number of homicides that occur after an execution. In other words, more lives can be saved than lost by abolishing the death penalty. Since the argument for deterrence as a theory of punishment is based upon such utilitarian calculations going all the way back to Jeremy Bentham, considerations of utility demand the abolition of the death penalty. In any event, the United States Constitution requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt before someone can be found guilty of a crime. A defendant is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of twelve men and women sitting on a jury. Consistent with that overriding constitutional philosophy, those who support the death penalty must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the imposition of the death penalty (1) deters homicides; and (2) saves more lives than it takes. Clearly, the proponents of the death penalty have failed to discharge this constitutional burden of proof. Yet, we in the United States continue to execute people when we know that there exists more than a reasonable doubt that the death penalty does not deter homicides, but indeed encourages homicides. Moreover, we also know that many innocent people in the history of this country have been sentenced to death and that many innocent people have been executed. It is beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty in the United States kills innocent people. Therefore, consistent with the overriding constitutional philosophy of proof beyond a reasonable doubt in substantive criminal law, we must abolish the death penalty. Furthermore, it is beyond a reasonable doubt that historically in this country the death penalty has been disproportionately imposed upon People of Color and the Poor. This violates the fundamental guarantee found in the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which provides that everyone in this country is entitled to the Equal Protection of the Laws. The death penalty has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor, and this is due to the intrinsic nature of American society. Namely, whether we like it or not, American society is inherently racist and capitalist. For this reason, the death penalty in America has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor and will continue to do so as long as we remain a racist and capitalist society. Due to the fact that America has always been a heterogeneous society consisting of men and women drawn from different races whose ancestors came from other countries around the world, or else were brought here against their will (e.g., African Americans), or else were already here when the rest of our ancestors arrived (e.g., Native Americans), I doubt very seriously that we will ever be able to eliminate all vestiges of racism and racial discrimination from America. And I make that statement with a great deal of regret. Nevertheless, I believe it to be true. America's inherent racism has always been manifest in the disproportionate imposition of the death penalty on African Americans, Latinos, and other People of Color in this country. Similarly, America is a capitalist society run on the principle: "You get what you pay for." This is true for education, housing, health care, justice, and just about anything else. There is a direct correlation between the amount of money you can pay and the quantity and quality of justice you can obtain in America. I make that statement based upon my experience of having practiced law for over seventeen years, including stints with three large corporate law firms. Recent confirmation of this proposition can be found in the double-murder trial of O.J. Simpson. He got a lot of "justice" because he had a lot of money. Indeed, the prosecutors purposely chose not to seek the death penalty in the first place for what was obviously a capital offense under California law. By comparison, those who are charged with first-degree murder are typically left to the vicissitudes of the public defender's office -- where they exist. This is not to call into question the competence and integrity of public defenders. But I am sure most public defenders would agree that they are overworked, understaffed and underpaid. How can we in the United States allow the most critical issue our courts are ever called upon to decide--life or death--to be determined on the basis of anything but the best legal representation that can be provided. Yet, the contrary happens every day here in the United States of America. I always found it particularly distressing when my students would then argue that it is cheaper to execute a convicted murderer than to keep him or her alive. Under the pernicious influence of the so-called Law and Economics Movement originating out of the now reactionary University of Chicago (where I attended college), arguments based upon principles of economic efficiency, utility, profit and outright greed have come to supplant considerations of justice, fairness, and compassion at an increasingly larger number of law schools in America today. Nevertheless, the statistics prove this economic argument in favor of the death penalty to be false as well. It is far more expensive to execute someone than to keep that individual alive for the rest of his or her natural life in prison. Indeed, the leading econometric study of the death penalty -- Ehrlich, The Deterrent Effect of Capital Punishment: A Question of Life and Death, 65 Amer. Econ. Rev. 397 (1975) -- found in part that the murder rate is negatively related to the labor force participation rate and positively to the unemployment rate. Hence, the rate of murder and other related crimes can be reduced through increased employment and earnings opportunities. Thus, I argued to my first year law students, perhaps the most effective way to prevent homicides was to make it a serious federal crime for government decision-makers to pursue economic policies that they know will increase the rate of unemployment in the United States. Furthermore, as a teacher I always objected to the immoral premises that underlie the economic argument in favor of the death penalty. The State has absolutely no right to take a human life because it is allegedly cheaper to kill that person than to keep him or her alive for any reason. Otherwise, the State would have a license to kill anyone that it does not deem to be economically productive or efficient: premature infants in neonatology wards; paraplegics and quadriplegics; the mentally retarded; the physically handicapped; the psychologically disturbed; the welfare mother; the senior citizen with Alzheimer's disease, etc. There would be no end in sight to the human carnage if America were to make decisions on whether the State should put people to death for economic reasons. If this self-styled principle of economic efficiency is allowed to prevail in America, then our society will become not much different from Nazi Germany where the terror of execution was used to produce a master race. In other words, we would be using the principle of economic efficiency to exterminate all those whom a certain group of us believe do not live up to some minimal criteria for existence. The Second World War and the Nazi Holocaust against the Jewish People, the Slavic Peoples--such as Russians and Poles--as well as Gypsies was the ultimate working-out of this philosophy: the so-called Final Solution. Yet, we here in the United States use the death penalty as our "Final Solution" to the most serious problems that confront our society today--poverty, racism, unemployment, drug abuse, etc. For example, a few years ago our so-called drug czar, William Bennett, publicly called for the beheading of drug dealers. Our government decision-makers wield the death penalty as the ultimate form of state terrorism in order to keep the enormous injustices, inequalities, hypocrisies, and deficiencies of American society within what they believe to be tolerable limits. This calls to mind the critique of the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution put forth by Edmund Burke, the great conservative: At the end of every vista, one sees nothing but the gallows. That is an incredibly accurate description of America today. Yet, somewhat paradoxically, Burke has always been the great philosophical hero to the conservative movement in the United States. The final argument in support of the death penalty goes back, supposedly, to the Bible. In other words, the Law of the Talon--an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, stripe for stripe, etc. Of course, you cannot find that argument in the New Testament, but to the contrary a philosophy that is premised on a diametrically opposed operational rationale: turn the other cheek, give the other cloak, walk the extra mile, etc. This is not to argue that the New Testament is better or worse than the Old Testament on this or any other matter. But rather, that those who cite the Bible in support of the death penalty conveniently overlook the philosophy of love, forgiveness and compassion preached by Jesus Christ and his immediate disciples. Thus, when publicly asked his opinion about the pending execution of an adulterous woman by stoning as required by law, Christ retorted: "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." Certainly "Christian" proponents of the death penalty in America should ponder the meaning of this injunction. After all, Christ himself was the ultimate victim of capital punishment. Nevertheless, the Law of the Talon did not originate with the Bible, but rather with Hammurabi, the first great king of Babylon, around 1700 B.C. At that time, Hammurabi promulgated what has come to be known as Hammurabi's Code, the essence of which was the Law of the Talon. Yet, originally, Hammurabi intended this principle to be progressive, not regressive. The Law of the Talon was designed to establish some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime. Before Hammurabi's Code, in the customary practice of ancient Babylon, there was no necessary requirement of proportionality between punishment and crime. Rather, a system of blood feud based upon revenge prevailed whereby the victim's family would wreak vengeance against the perpetrator or his family that oftentimes was completely disproportionate to the original offense. Hammurabi wanted to take the enforcement of criminal law out of the hands of private individuals and put it into the hands of the state to prevent the private anarchy of the blood feud. In addition, he also wanted to institute some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime, and thus to impose some humanitarian limitations upon the enforcement of criminal law penalties. Hammurabi's Code was promulgated around the year 1700 B.C. by the ruler of one of the Middle Eastern world's first great military empires. And yet today, almost four millennia later, we here in the American Empire still have people citing Hammurabi's Law of the Talon to justify the death penalty despite the fact that we are supposed to be a popular democracy with a commitment to the Rule of Law. Indeed, here in the United States of America, we instituted a Constitution for all the people over 200 years ago. The Eighth Amendment to that Constitution prohibits the infliction of "cruel and unusual punishments." It seems to me that our degree of civilization should have improved considerably beyond the days of Hammurabi to the point that the death penalty has indeed become a cruel and unusual punishment. This conclusion becomes crystal clear when America's practice of capital punishment is contrasted with the abolitionist policies of so many Western liberal democracies that we like to compare ourselves to. It is about time for the United States of America to relegate this barbarous remnant of ancient times to the dustbin of history. At the end of spending six or seven class days patiently going through all the arguments for and against the death penalty with my 70 or so first year law students, almost every year it was the case that I was able to turn a tentative majority in favor of the death penalty into a solid abolitionist majority. Both at the time and in retrospect, this reversal of opinion has always given me great hope that some day the majority of the American people who supposedly support the death penalty can be educated into becoming an abolitionist majority. In this regard, the U.S. news media all tell us that a solid majority of the American people support the death penalty. I submit this is because the news media have constantly told the American people that a majority of them support the death penalty and so a majority of them do indeed support the death penalty. The U.S. news media's coverage and presentation of the death penalty in America constitutes the classic example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. As someone who reads five or six newspapers almost every day except when I am on the road, it seems to me that the news media have purposefully failed to present the abolitionist side of the death penalty debate to the American people. In the United States the editorial party line of most media seems to be that since a majority of the American people support the death penalty, there is not much point in devoting too much time, too much energy, or too much coverage to the abolitionist side of the debate. This self-induced tautology is critical because the United States Supreme Court has indicated that so long as a majority of the American people continue to support the death penalty, then it cannot be said that the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment that is prohibited by the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution. Nevertheless, the U.S. news media is itself protected by the First Amendment to that same Constitution. Therefore, because of the pivotal role played by the news media in shaping public opinion, I would submit that the news media have a constitutional responsibility to cover the abolitionist side of the debate over the death penalty on a level of complete equality with those who favor the imposition of the death penalty -- which they have so far failed to discharge. On this crucial question, whether rightly or wrongly, the Supreme Court has deferred to the judgment of U.S. public opinion. Therefore, it is up to those who shape U.S. public opinion to make sure that both sides of the death penalty debate are adequately, fairly, and equally presented. Thus, it must be the task of teachers not only to educate their students and the American people to the abolitionist point of view, but also to explain to the U.S. news media why they have a constitutional obligation to provide equal, adequate, and fair coverage of the abolitionist case against the death penalty. Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. File:5.2\deathpen.#2 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Jun 9 16:23:43 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 11:23:43 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> A compelling argument, Francis. Does it also apply to abortion? > On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: > > From: Boyle, Francis [mailto:FBOYLE at LAW.UIUC.EDU] > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 10:02 AM > To: 'nppryan at compar.com' > Subject: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > Importance: High > > Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. > > Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. > > Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. > > This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. > > Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. > > > > > > > > > > > File:5.2\deathpen.#2 > > > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign, IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (voice) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > fboyle at law.uiuc.edu > (personal comments only) > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Boyle, Francis > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:15 AM > To: 'Multiple recipients of list' > Subject: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > > TEACHING AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY: > THE EXECUTION OF JOHN WAYNE GACY > > by > > Francis A. Boyle > > Professor of Law > > During almost two decades of teaching, one of the many subjects I taught for several years was substantive criminal law to about 70 first year law students. Each semester I would set aside in my course about two weeks of class sessions to deal with the death penalty. I believe that at the outset of my course a majority of the students probably supported the death penalty for one reason or another. Therefore, the task I always set for myself over those six or so class sessions was to turn that majority into a minority and thus to produce an abolitionist majority. > > During the course of this process, there were a number of arguments put forth by my obviously intelligent students to justify the death penalty. First came their argument based on deterrence. As we know, however, there is no unequivocal empirical evidence to prove that the death penalty deters anything. Indeed, over 50% of all homicides committed in the United States of America are what we law professors call "crimes of passion," which, by definition, cannot be deterred in the first place. In these cases, people kill in the heat of emotional and physical passion when the mental calculations presumed by the theory of deterrence are irrelevant. Likewise, a large percentage of homicides occur under the influence of alcohol when mental reasoning processes are substantially impaired and thus cannot be deterred. > > To the contrary, what little empirical evidence we have seems to indicate that in fact the imposition of the death penalty has a brutalizing effect on the target population by increasing the number of homicides that occur after an execution. In other words, more lives can be saved than lost by abolishing the death penalty. Since the argument for deterrence as a theory of punishment is based upon such utilitarian calculations going all the way back to Jeremy Bentham, considerations of utility demand the abolition of the death penalty. > > In any event, the United States Constitution requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt before someone can be found guilty of a crime. A defendant is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of twelve men and women sitting on a jury. Consistent with that overriding constitutional philosophy, those who support the death penalty must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the imposition of the death penalty (1) deters homicides; and (2) saves more lives than it takes. Clearly, the proponents of the death penalty have failed to discharge this constitutional burden of proof. Yet, we in the United States continue to execute people when we know that there exists more than a reasonable doubt that the death penalty does not deter homicides, but indeed encourages homicides. > > Moreover, we also know that many innocent people in the history of this country have been sentenced to death and that many innocent people have been executed. It is beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty in the United States kills innocent people. Therefore, consistent with the overriding constitutional philosophy of proof beyond a reasonable doubt in substantive criminal law, we must abolish the death penalty. > > Furthermore, it is beyond a reasonable doubt that historically in this country the death penalty has been disproportionately imposed upon People of Color and the Poor. This violates the fundamental guarantee found in the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which provides that everyone in this country is entitled to the Equal Protection of the Laws. The death penalty has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor, and this is due to the intrinsic nature of American society. Namely, whether we like it or not, American society is inherently racist and capitalist. For this reason, the death penalty in America has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor and will continue to do so as long as we remain a racist and capitalist society. > > Due to the fact that America has always been a heterogeneous society consisting of men and women drawn from different races whose ancestors came from other countries around the world, or else were brought here against their will (e.g., African Americans), or else were already here when the rest of our ancestors arrived (e.g., Native Americans), I doubt very seriously that we will ever be able to eliminate all vestiges of racism and racial discrimination from America. And I make that statement with a great deal of regret. Nevertheless, I believe it to be true. America's inherent racism has always been manifest in the disproportionate imposition of the death penalty on African Americans, Latinos, and other People of Color in this country. > > Similarly, America is a capitalist society run on the principle: "You get what you pay for." This is true for education, housing, health care, justice, and just about anything else. There is a direct correlation between the amount of money you can pay and the quantity and quality of justice you can obtain in America. I make that statement based upon my experience of having practiced law for over seventeen years, including stints with three large corporate law firms. > > Recent confirmation of this proposition can be found in the double-murder trial of O.J. Simpson. He got a lot of "justice" because he had a lot of money. Indeed, the prosecutors purposely chose not to seek the death penalty in the first place for what was obviously a capital offense under California law. > > By comparison, those who are charged with first-degree murder are typically left to the vicissitudes of the public defender's office -- where they exist. This is not to call into question the competence and integrity of public defenders. But I am sure most public defenders would agree that they are overworked, understaffed and underpaid. How can we in the United States allow the most critical issue our courts are ever called upon to decide--life or death--to be determined on the basis of anything but the best legal representation that can be provided. Yet, the contrary happens every day here in the United States of America. > > I always found it particularly distressing when my students would then argue that it is cheaper to execute a convicted murderer than to keep him or her alive. Under the pernicious influence of the so-called Law and Economics Movement originating out of the now reactionary University of Chicago (where I attended college), arguments based upon principles of economic efficiency, utility, profit and outright greed have come to supplant considerations of justice, fairness, and compassion at an increasingly larger number of law schools in America today. Nevertheless, the statistics prove this economic argument in favor of the death penalty to be false as well. It is far more expensive to execute someone than to keep that individual alive for the rest of his or her natural life in prison. > > Indeed, the leading econometric study of the death penalty -- Ehrlich, The Deterrent Effect of Capital Punishment: A Question of Life and Death, 65 Amer. Econ. Rev. 397 (1975) -- found in part that the murder rate is negatively related to the labor force participation rate and positively to the unemployment rate. Hence, the rate of murder and other related crimes can be reduced through increased employment and earnings opportunities. Thus, I argued to my first year law students, perhaps the most effective way to prevent homicides was to make it a serious federal crime for government decision-makers to pursue economic policies that they know will increase the rate of unemployment in the United States. > > Furthermore, as a teacher I always objected to the immoral premises that underlie the economic argument in favor of the death penalty. The State has absolutely no right to take a human life because it is allegedly cheaper to kill that person than to keep him or her alive for any reason. Otherwise, the State would have a license to kill anyone that it does not deem to be economically productive or efficient: premature infants in neonatology wards; paraplegics and quadriplegics; the mentally retarded; the physically handicapped; the psychologically disturbed; the welfare mother; the senior citizen with Alzheimer's disease, etc. There would be no end in sight to the human carnage if America were to make decisions on whether the State should put people to death for economic reasons. If this self-styled principle of economic efficiency is allowed to prevail in America, then our society will become not much different from Nazi Germany where the terror of execution was used to produce a master race. In other words, we would be using the principle of economic efficiency to exterminate all those whom a certain group of us believe do not live up to some minimal criteria for existence. > > The Second World War and the Nazi Holocaust against the Jewish People, the Slavic Peoples--such as Russians and Poles--as well as Gypsies was the ultimate working-out of this philosophy: the so-called Final Solution. Yet, we here in the United States use the death penalty as our "Final Solution" to the most serious problems that confront our society today--poverty, racism, unemployment, drug abuse, etc. For example, a few years ago our so-called drug czar, William Bennett, publicly called for the beheading of drug dealers. > > Our government decision-makers wield the death penalty as the ultimate form of state terrorism in order to keep the enormous injustices, inequalities, hypocrisies, and deficiencies of American society within what they believe to be tolerable limits. This calls to mind the critique of the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution put forth by Edmund Burke, the great conservative: At the end of every vista, one sees nothing but the gallows. That is an incredibly accurate description of America today. Yet, somewhat paradoxically, Burke has always been the great philosophical hero to the conservative movement in the United States. > > The final argument in support of the death penalty goes back, supposedly, to the Bible. In other words, the Law of the Talon--an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, stripe for stripe, etc. Of course, you cannot find that argument in the New Testament, but to the contrary a philosophy that is premised on a diametrically opposed operational rationale: turn the other cheek, give the other cloak, walk the extra mile, etc. This is not to argue that the New Testament is better or worse than the Old Testament on this or any other matter. But rather, that those who cite the Bible in support of the death penalty conveniently overlook the philosophy of love, forgiveness and compassion preached by Jesus Christ and his immediate disciples. > > Thus, when publicly asked his opinion about the pending execution of an adulterous woman by stoning as required by law, Christ retorted: "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." Certainly "Christian" proponents of the death penalty in America should ponder the meaning of this injunction. After all, Christ himself was the ultimate victim of capital punishment. > > Nevertheless, the Law of the Talon did not originate with the Bible, but rather with Hammurabi, the first great king of Babylon, around 1700 B.C. At that time, Hammurabi promulgated what has come to be known as Hammurabi's Code, the essence of which was the Law of the Talon. Yet, originally, Hammurabi intended this principle to be progressive, not regressive. The Law of the Talon was designed to establish some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime. > > Before Hammurabi's Code, in the customary practice of ancient Babylon, there was no necessary requirement of proportionality between punishment and crime. Rather, a system of blood feud based upon revenge prevailed whereby the victim's family would wreak vengeance against the perpetrator or his family that oftentimes was completely disproportionate to the original offense. Hammurabi wanted to take the enforcement of criminal law out of the hands of private individuals and put it into the hands of the state to prevent the private anarchy of the blood feud. In addition, he also wanted to institute some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime, and thus to impose some humanitarian limitations upon the enforcement of criminal law penalties. > > Hammurabi's Code was promulgated around the year 1700 B.C. by the ruler of one of the Middle Eastern world's first great military empires. And yet today, almost four millennia later, we here in the American Empire still have people citing Hammurabi's Law of the Talon to justify the death penalty despite the fact that we are supposed to be a popular democracy with a commitment to the Rule of Law. Indeed, here in the United States of America, we instituted a Constitution for all the people over 200 years ago. The Eighth Amendment to that Constitution prohibits the infliction of "cruel and unusual punishments." It seems to me that our degree of civilization should have improved considerably beyond the days of Hammurabi to the point that the death penalty has indeed become a cruel and unusual punishment. This conclusion becomes crystal clear when America's practice of capital punishment is contrasted with the abolitionist policies of so many Western liberal democracies that we like to compare ourselves to. It is about time for the United States of America to relegate this barbarous remnant of ancient times to the dustbin of history. > > At the end of spending six or seven class days patiently going through all the arguments for and against the death penalty with my 70 or so first year law students, almost every year it was the case that I was able to turn a tentative majority in favor of the death penalty into a solid abolitionist majority. Both at the time and in retrospect, this reversal of opinion has always given me great hope that some day the majority of the American people who supposedly support the death penalty can be educated into becoming an abolitionist majority. > > In this regard, the U.S. news media all tell us that a solid majority of the American people support the death penalty. I submit this is because the news media have constantly told the American people that a majority of them support the death penalty and so a majority of them do indeed support the death penalty. The U.S. news media's coverage and presentation of the death penalty in America constitutes the classic example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. > > As someone who reads five or six newspapers almost every day except when I am on the road, it seems to me that the news media have purposefully failed to present the abolitionist side of the death penalty debate to the American people. In the United States the editorial party line of most media seems to be that since a majority of the American people support the death penalty, there is not much point in devoting too much time, too much energy, or too much coverage to the abolitionist side of the debate. This self-induced tautology is critical because the United States Supreme Court has indicated that so long as a majority of the American people continue to support the death penalty, then it cannot be said that the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment that is prohibited by the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution. > > Nevertheless, the U.S. news media is itself protected by the First Amendment to that same Constitution. Therefore, because of the pivotal role played by the news media in shaping public opinion, I would submit that the news media have a constitutional responsibility to cover the abolitionist side of the debate over the death penalty on a level of complete equality with those who favor the imposition of the death penalty -- which they have so far failed to discharge. On this crucial question, whether rightly or wrongly, the Supreme Court has deferred to the judgment of U.S. public opinion. Therefore, it is up to those who shape U.S. public opinion to make sure that both sides of the death penalty debate are adequately, fairly, and equally presented. Thus, it must be the task of teachers not only to educate their students and the American people to the abolitionist point of view, but also to explain to the U.S. news media why they have a constitutional obligation to provide equal, adequate, and fair coverage of the abolitionist case against the death penalty. > > Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. > > Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. > > Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. > > This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. > > Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. > > > > > > > > > > > File:5.2\deathpen.#2 > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 9 16:46:38 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 16:46:38 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> Message-ID: In accordance with Anglo-American Common law, there is no "human being" who can be murdered unless and until a fetus is born and born alive. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 11:24 AM To: Boyle, Francis A Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty Importance: High A compelling argument, Francis. Does it also apply to abortion? > On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: > > From: Boyle, Francis [mailto:FBOYLE at LAW.UIUC.EDU] > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 10:02 AM > To: 'nppryan at compar.com' > Subject: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > Importance: High > > Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. > > Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. > > Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. > > This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. > > Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. > > > > > > > > > > > File:5.2\deathpen.#2 > > > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign, IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (voice) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > fboyle at law.uiuc.edu > (personal comments only) > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Boyle, Francis > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:15 AM > To: 'Multiple recipients of list' > Subject: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > > TEACHING AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY: > THE EXECUTION OF JOHN WAYNE GACY > > by > > Francis A. Boyle > > Professor of Law > > During almost two decades of teaching, one of the many subjects I taught for several years was substantive criminal law to about 70 first year law students. Each semester I would set aside in my course about two weeks of class sessions to deal with the death penalty. I believe that at the outset of my course a majority of the students probably supported the death penalty for one reason or another. Therefore, the task I always set for myself over those six or so class sessions was to turn that majority into a minority and thus to produce an abolitionist majority. > > During the course of this process, there were a number of arguments put forth by my obviously intelligent students to justify the death penalty. First came their argument based on deterrence. As we know, however, there is no unequivocal empirical evidence to prove that the death penalty deters anything. Indeed, over 50% of all homicides committed in the United States of America are what we law professors call "crimes of passion," which, by definition, cannot be deterred in the first place. In these cases, people kill in the heat of emotional and physical passion when the mental calculations presumed by the theory of deterrence are irrelevant. Likewise, a large percentage of homicides occur under the influence of alcohol when mental reasoning processes are substantially impaired and thus cannot be deterred. > > To the contrary, what little empirical evidence we have seems to indicate that in fact the imposition of the death penalty has a brutalizing effect on the target population by increasing the number of homicides that occur after an execution. In other words, more lives can be saved than lost by abolishing the death penalty. Since the argument for deterrence as a theory of punishment is based upon such utilitarian calculations going all the way back to Jeremy Bentham, considerations of utility demand the abolition of the death penalty. > > In any event, the United States Constitution requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt before someone can be found guilty of a crime. A defendant is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of twelve men and women sitting on a jury. Consistent with that overriding constitutional philosophy, those who support the death penalty must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the imposition of the death penalty (1) deters homicides; and (2) saves more lives than it takes. Clearly, the proponents of the death penalty have failed to discharge this constitutional burden of proof. Yet, we in the United States continue to execute people when we know that there exists more than a reasonable doubt that the death penalty does not deter homicides, but indeed encourages homicides. > > Moreover, we also know that many innocent people in the history of this country have been sentenced to death and that many innocent people have been executed. It is beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty in the United States kills innocent people. Therefore, consistent with the overriding constitutional philosophy of proof beyond a reasonable doubt in substantive criminal law, we must abolish the death penalty. > > Furthermore, it is beyond a reasonable doubt that historically in this country the death penalty has been disproportionately imposed upon People of Color and the Poor. This violates the fundamental guarantee found in the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which provides that everyone in this country is entitled to the Equal Protection of the Laws. The death penalty has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor, and this is due to the intrinsic nature of American society. Namely, whether we like it or not, American society is inherently racist and capitalist. For this reason, the death penalty in America has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor and will continue to do so as long as we remain a racist and capitalist society. > > Due to the fact that America has always been a heterogeneous society consisting of men and women drawn from different races whose ancestors came from other countries around the world, or else were brought here against their will (e.g., African Americans), or else were already here when the rest of our ancestors arrived (e.g., Native Americans), I doubt very seriously that we will ever be able to eliminate all vestiges of racism and racial discrimination from America. And I make that statement with a great deal of regret. Nevertheless, I believe it to be true. America's inherent racism has always been manifest in the disproportionate imposition of the death penalty on African Americans, Latinos, and other People of Color in this country. > > Similarly, America is a capitalist society run on the principle: "You get what you pay for." This is true for education, housing, health care, justice, and just about anything else. There is a direct correlation between the amount of money you can pay and the quantity and quality of justice you can obtain in America. I make that statement based upon my experience of having practiced law for over seventeen years, including stints with three large corporate law firms. > > Recent confirmation of this proposition can be found in the double-murder trial of O.J. Simpson. He got a lot of "justice" because he had a lot of money. Indeed, the prosecutors purposely chose not to seek the death penalty in the first place for what was obviously a capital offense under California law. > > By comparison, those who are charged with first-degree murder are typically left to the vicissitudes of the public defender's office -- where they exist. This is not to call into question the competence and integrity of public defenders. But I am sure most public defenders would agree that they are overworked, understaffed and underpaid. How can we in the United States allow the most critical issue our courts are ever called upon to decide--life or death--to be determined on the basis of anything but the best legal representation that can be provided. Yet, the contrary happens every day here in the United States of America. > > I always found it particularly distressing when my students would then argue that it is cheaper to execute a convicted murderer than to keep him or her alive. Under the pernicious influence of the so-called Law and Economics Movement originating out of the now reactionary University of Chicago (where I attended college), arguments based upon principles of economic efficiency, utility, profit and outright greed have come to supplant considerations of justice, fairness, and compassion at an increasingly larger number of law schools in America today. Nevertheless, the statistics prove this economic argument in favor of the death penalty to be false as well. It is far more expensive to execute someone than to keep that individual alive for the rest of his or her natural life in prison. > > Indeed, the leading econometric study of the death penalty -- Ehrlich, The Deterrent Effect of Capital Punishment: A Question of Life and Death, 65 Amer. Econ. Rev. 397 (1975) -- found in part that the murder rate is negatively related to the labor force participation rate and positively to the unemployment rate. Hence, the rate of murder and other related crimes can be reduced through increased employment and earnings opportunities. Thus, I argued to my first year law students, perhaps the most effective way to prevent homicides was to make it a serious federal crime for government decision-makers to pursue economic policies that they know will increase the rate of unemployment in the United States. > > Furthermore, as a teacher I always objected to the immoral premises that underlie the economic argument in favor of the death penalty. The State has absolutely no right to take a human life because it is allegedly cheaper to kill that person than to keep him or her alive for any reason. Otherwise, the State would have a license to kill anyone that it does not deem to be economically productive or efficient: premature infants in neonatology wards; paraplegics and quadriplegics; the mentally retarded; the physically handicapped; the psychologically disturbed; the welfare mother; the senior citizen with Alzheimer's disease, etc. There would be no end in sight to the human carnage if America were to make decisions on whether the State should put people to death for economic reasons. If this self-styled principle of economic efficiency is allowed to prevail in America, then our society will become not much different from Nazi Germany where the terror of execution was used to produce a master race. In other words, we would be using the principle of economic efficiency to exterminate all those whom a certain group of us believe do not live up to some minimal criteria for existence. > > The Second World War and the Nazi Holocaust against the Jewish People, the Slavic Peoples--such as Russians and Poles--as well as Gypsies was the ultimate working-out of this philosophy: the so-called Final Solution. Yet, we here in the United States use the death penalty as our "Final Solution" to the most serious problems that confront our society today--poverty, racism, unemployment, drug abuse, etc. For example, a few years ago our so-called drug czar, William Bennett, publicly called for the beheading of drug dealers. > > Our government decision-makers wield the death penalty as the ultimate form of state terrorism in order to keep the enormous injustices, inequalities, hypocrisies, and deficiencies of American society within what they believe to be tolerable limits. This calls to mind the critique of the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution put forth by Edmund Burke, the great conservative: At the end of every vista, one sees nothing but the gallows. That is an incredibly accurate description of America today. Yet, somewhat paradoxically, Burke has always been the great philosophical hero to the conservative movement in the United States. > > The final argument in support of the death penalty goes back, supposedly, to the Bible. In other words, the Law of the Talon--an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, stripe for stripe, etc. Of course, you cannot find that argument in the New Testament, but to the contrary a philosophy that is premised on a diametrically opposed operational rationale: turn the other cheek, give the other cloak, walk the extra mile, etc. This is not to argue that the New Testament is better or worse than the Old Testament on this or any other matter. But rather, that those who cite the Bible in support of the death penalty conveniently overlook the philosophy of love, forgiveness and compassion preached by Jesus Christ and his immediate disciples. > > Thus, when publicly asked his opinion about the pending execution of an adulterous woman by stoning as required by law, Christ retorted: "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." Certainly "Christian" proponents of the death penalty in America should ponder the meaning of this injunction. After all, Christ himself was the ultimate victim of capital punishment. > > Nevertheless, the Law of the Talon did not originate with the Bible, but rather with Hammurabi, the first great king of Babylon, around 1700 B.C. At that time, Hammurabi promulgated what has come to be known as Hammurabi's Code, the essence of which was the Law of the Talon. Yet, originally, Hammurabi intended this principle to be progressive, not regressive. The Law of the Talon was designed to establish some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime. > > Before Hammurabi's Code, in the customary practice of ancient Babylon, there was no necessary requirement of proportionality between punishment and crime. Rather, a system of blood feud based upon revenge prevailed whereby the victim's family would wreak vengeance against the perpetrator or his family that oftentimes was completely disproportionate to the original offense. Hammurabi wanted to take the enforcement of criminal law out of the hands of private individuals and put it into the hands of the state to prevent the private anarchy of the blood feud. In addition, he also wanted to institute some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime, and thus to impose some humanitarian limitations upon the enforcement of criminal law penalties. > > Hammurabi's Code was promulgated around the year 1700 B.C. by the ruler of one of the Middle Eastern world's first great military empires. And yet today, almost four millennia later, we here in the American Empire still have people citing Hammurabi's Law of the Talon to justify the death penalty despite the fact that we are supposed to be a popular democracy with a commitment to the Rule of Law. Indeed, here in the United States of America, we instituted a Constitution for all the people over 200 years ago. The Eighth Amendment to that Constitution prohibits the infliction of "cruel and unusual punishments." It seems to me that our degree of civilization should have improved considerably beyond the days of Hammurabi to the point that the death penalty has indeed become a cruel and unusual punishment. This conclusion becomes crystal clear when America's practice of capital punishment is contrasted with the abolitionist policies of so many Western liberal democracies that we like to compare ourselves to. It is about time for the United States of America to relegate this barbarous remnant of ancient times to the dustbin of history. > > At the end of spending six or seven class days patiently going through all the arguments for and against the death penalty with my 70 or so first year law students, almost every year it was the case that I was able to turn a tentative majority in favor of the death penalty into a solid abolitionist majority. Both at the time and in retrospect, this reversal of opinion has always given me great hope that some day the majority of the American people who supposedly support the death penalty can be educated into becoming an abolitionist majority. > > In this regard, the U.S. news media all tell us that a solid majority of the American people support the death penalty. I submit this is because the news media have constantly told the American people that a majority of them support the death penalty and so a majority of them do indeed support the death penalty. The U.S. news media's coverage and presentation of the death penalty in America constitutes the classic example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. > > As someone who reads five or six newspapers almost every day except when I am on the road, it seems to me that the news media have purposefully failed to present the abolitionist side of the death penalty debate to the American people. In the United States the editorial party line of most media seems to be that since a majority of the American people support the death penalty, there is not much point in devoting too much time, too much energy, or too much coverage to the abolitionist side of the debate. This self-induced tautology is critical because the United States Supreme Court has indicated that so long as a majority of the American people continue to support the death penalty, then it cannot be said that the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment that is prohibited by the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution. > > Nevertheless, the U.S. news media is itself protected by the First Amendment to that same Constitution. Therefore, because of the pivotal role played by the news media in shaping public opinion, I would submit that the news media have a constitutional responsibility to cover the abolitionist side of the debate over the death penalty on a level of complete equality with those who favor the imposition of the death penalty -- which they have so far failed to discharge. On this crucial question, whether rightly or wrongly, the Supreme Court has deferred to the judgment of U.S. public opinion. Therefore, it is up to those who shape U.S. public opinion to make sure that both sides of the death penalty debate are adequately, fairly, and equally presented. Thus, it must be the task of teachers not only to educate their students and the American people to the abolitionist point of view, but also to explain to the U.S. news media why they have a constitutional obligation to provide equal, adequate, and fair coverage of the abolitionist case against the death penalty. > > Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. > > Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. > > Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. > > This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. > > Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. > > > > > > > > > > > File:5.2\deathpen.#2 > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Jun 9 17:00:07 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 12:00:07 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> "Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances ... 'Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.' John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us.” My grandddaugher in utero has the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the unborn of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. —CGE > On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:46 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: > > In accordance with Anglo-American Common law, there is no "human being" who can be murdered unless and until a fetus is born and born alive. Fab. > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 11:24 AM > To: Boyle, Francis A > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > Importance: High > > A compelling argument, Francis. Does it also apply to abortion? > > >> On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> From: Boyle, Francis [mailto:FBOYLE at LAW.UIUC.EDU] >> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 10:02 AM >> To: 'nppryan at compar.com' >> Subject: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >> Importance: High >> >> Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. >> >> Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. >> >> Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. >> >> This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. >> >> Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> File:5.2\deathpen.#2 >> >> >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> Law Building >> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >> 217-333-7954 (voice) >> 217-244-1478 (fax) >> fboyle at law.uiuc.edu >> (personal comments only) >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Boyle, Francis >> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:15 AM >> To: 'Multiple recipients of list' >> Subject: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >> >> >> TEACHING AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY: >> THE EXECUTION OF JOHN WAYNE GACY >> >> by >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> >> Professor of Law >> >> During almost two decades of teaching, one of the many subjects I taught for several years was substantive criminal law to about 70 first year law students. Each semester I would set aside in my course about two weeks of class sessions to deal with the death penalty. I believe that at the outset of my course a majority of the students probably supported the death penalty for one reason or another. Therefore, the task I always set for myself over those six or so class sessions was to turn that majority into a minority and thus to produce an abolitionist majority. >> >> During the course of this process, there were a number of arguments put forth by my obviously intelligent students to justify the death penalty. First came their argument based on deterrence. As we know, however, there is no unequivocal empirical evidence to prove that the death penalty deters anything. Indeed, over 50% of all homicides committed in the United States of America are what we law professors call "crimes of passion," which, by definition, cannot be deterred in the first place. In these cases, people kill in the heat of emotional and physical passion when the mental calculations presumed by the theory of deterrence are irrelevant. Likewise, a large percentage of homicides occur under the influence of alcohol when mental reasoning processes are substantially impaired and thus cannot be deterred. >> >> To the contrary, what little empirical evidence we have seems to indicate that in fact the imposition of the death penalty has a brutalizing effect on the target population by increasing the number of homicides that occur after an execution. In other words, more lives can be saved than lost by abolishing the death penalty. Since the argument for deterrence as a theory of punishment is based upon such utilitarian calculations going all the way back to Jeremy Bentham, considerations of utility demand the abolition of the death penalty. >> >> In any event, the United States Constitution requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt before someone can be found guilty of a crime. A defendant is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of twelve men and women sitting on a jury. Consistent with that overriding constitutional philosophy, those who support the death penalty must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the imposition of the death penalty (1) deters homicides; and (2) saves more lives than it takes. Clearly, the proponents of the death penalty have failed to discharge this constitutional burden of proof. Yet, we in the United States continue to execute people when we know that there exists more than a reasonable doubt that the death penalty does not deter homicides, but indeed encourages homicides. >> >> Moreover, we also know that many innocent people in the history of this country have been sentenced to death and that many innocent people have been executed. It is beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty in the United States kills innocent people. Therefore, consistent with the overriding constitutional philosophy of proof beyond a reasonable doubt in substantive criminal law, we must abolish the death penalty. >> >> Furthermore, it is beyond a reasonable doubt that historically in this country the death penalty has been disproportionately imposed upon People of Color and the Poor. This violates the fundamental guarantee found in the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which provides that everyone in this country is entitled to the Equal Protection of the Laws. The death penalty has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor, and this is due to the intrinsic nature of American society. Namely, whether we like it or not, American society is inherently racist and capitalist. For this reason, the death penalty in America has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor and will continue to do so as long as we remain a racist and capitalist society. >> >> Due to the fact that America has always been a heterogeneous society consisting of men and women drawn from different races whose ancestors came from other countries around the world, or else were brought here against their will (e.g., African Americans), or else were already here when the rest of our ancestors arrived (e.g., Native Americans), I doubt very seriously that we will ever be able to eliminate all vestiges of racism and racial discrimination from America. And I make that statement with a great deal of regret. Nevertheless, I believe it to be true. America's inherent racism has always been manifest in the disproportionate imposition of the death penalty on African Americans, Latinos, and other People of Color in this country. >> >> Similarly, America is a capitalist society run on the principle: "You get what you pay for." This is true for education, housing, health care, justice, and just about anything else. There is a direct correlation between the amount of money you can pay and the quantity and quality of justice you can obtain in America. I make that statement based upon my experience of having practiced law for over seventeen years, including stints with three large corporate law firms. >> >> Recent confirmation of this proposition can be found in the double-murder trial of O.J. Simpson. He got a lot of "justice" because he had a lot of money. Indeed, the prosecutors purposely chose not to seek the death penalty in the first place for what was obviously a capital offense under California law. >> >> By comparison, those who are charged with first-degree murder are typically left to the vicissitudes of the public defender's office -- where they exist. This is not to call into question the competence and integrity of public defenders. But I am sure most public defenders would agree that they are overworked, understaffed and underpaid. How can we in the United States allow the most critical issue our courts are ever called upon to decide--life or death--to be determined on the basis of anything but the best legal representation that can be provided. Yet, the contrary happens every day here in the United States of America. >> >> I always found it particularly distressing when my students would then argue that it is cheaper to execute a convicted murderer than to keep him or her alive. Under the pernicious influence of the so-called Law and Economics Movement originating out of the now reactionary University of Chicago (where I attended college), arguments based upon principles of economic efficiency, utility, profit and outright greed have come to supplant considerations of justice, fairness, and compassion at an increasingly larger number of law schools in America today. Nevertheless, the statistics prove this economic argument in favor of the death penalty to be false as well. It is far more expensive to execute someone than to keep that individual alive for the rest of his or her natural life in prison. >> >> Indeed, the leading econometric study of the death penalty -- Ehrlich, The Deterrent Effect of Capital Punishment: A Question of Life and Death, 65 Amer. Econ. Rev. 397 (1975) -- found in part that the murder rate is negatively related to the labor force participation rate and positively to the unemployment rate. Hence, the rate of murder and other related crimes can be reduced through increased employment and earnings opportunities. Thus, I argued to my first year law students, perhaps the most effective way to prevent homicides was to make it a serious federal crime for government decision-makers to pursue economic policies that they know will increase the rate of unemployment in the United States. >> >> Furthermore, as a teacher I always objected to the immoral premises that underlie the economic argument in favor of the death penalty. The State has absolutely no right to take a human life because it is allegedly cheaper to kill that person than to keep him or her alive for any reason. Otherwise, the State would have a license to kill anyone that it does not deem to be economically productive or efficient: premature infants in neonatology wards; paraplegics and quadriplegics; the mentally retarded; the physically handicapped; the psychologically disturbed; the welfare mother; the senior citizen with Alzheimer's disease, etc. There would be no end in sight to the human carnage if America were to make decisions on whether the State should put people to death for economic reasons. If this self-styled principle of economic efficiency is allowed to prevail in America, then our society will become not much different from Nazi Germany where the terror of execution was used to produce a master race. In other words, we would be using the principle of economic efficiency to exterminate all those whom a certain group of us believe do not live up to some minimal criteria for existence. >> >> The Second World War and the Nazi Holocaust against the Jewish People, the Slavic Peoples--such as Russians and Poles--as well as Gypsies was the ultimate working-out of this philosophy: the so-called Final Solution. Yet, we here in the United States use the death penalty as our "Final Solution" to the most serious problems that confront our society today--poverty, racism, unemployment, drug abuse, etc. For example, a few years ago our so-called drug czar, William Bennett, publicly called for the beheading of drug dealers. >> >> Our government decision-makers wield the death penalty as the ultimate form of state terrorism in order to keep the enormous injustices, inequalities, hypocrisies, and deficiencies of American society within what they believe to be tolerable limits. This calls to mind the critique of the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution put forth by Edmund Burke, the great conservative: At the end of every vista, one sees nothing but the gallows. That is an incredibly accurate description of America today. Yet, somewhat paradoxically, Burke has always been the great philosophical hero to the conservative movement in the United States. >> >> The final argument in support of the death penalty goes back, supposedly, to the Bible. In other words, the Law of the Talon--an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, stripe for stripe, etc. Of course, you cannot find that argument in the New Testament, but to the contrary a philosophy that is premised on a diametrically opposed operational rationale: turn the other cheek, give the other cloak, walk the extra mile, etc. This is not to argue that the New Testament is better or worse than the Old Testament on this or any other matter. But rather, that those who cite the Bible in support of the death penalty conveniently overlook the philosophy of love, forgiveness and compassion preached by Jesus Christ and his immediate disciples. >> >> Thus, when publicly asked his opinion about the pending execution of an adulterous woman by stoning as required by law, Christ retorted: "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." Certainly "Christian" proponents of the death penalty in America should ponder the meaning of this injunction. After all, Christ himself was the ultimate victim of capital punishment. >> >> Nevertheless, the Law of the Talon did not originate with the Bible, but rather with Hammurabi, the first great king of Babylon, around 1700 B.C. At that time, Hammurabi promulgated what has come to be known as Hammurabi's Code, the essence of which was the Law of the Talon. Yet, originally, Hammurabi intended this principle to be progressive, not regressive. The Law of the Talon was designed to establish some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime. >> >> Before Hammurabi's Code, in the customary practice of ancient Babylon, there was no necessary requirement of proportionality between punishment and crime. Rather, a system of blood feud based upon revenge prevailed whereby the victim's family would wreak vengeance against the perpetrator or his family that oftentimes was completely disproportionate to the original offense. Hammurabi wanted to take the enforcement of criminal law out of the hands of private individuals and put it into the hands of the state to prevent the private anarchy of the blood feud. In addition, he also wanted to institute some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime, and thus to impose some humanitarian limitations upon the enforcement of criminal law penalties. >> >> Hammurabi's Code was promulgated around the year 1700 B.C. by the ruler of one of the Middle Eastern world's first great military empires. And yet today, almost four millennia later, we here in the American Empire still have people citing Hammurabi's Law of the Talon to justify the death penalty despite the fact that we are supposed to be a popular democracy with a commitment to the Rule of Law. Indeed, here in the United States of America, we instituted a Constitution for all the people over 200 years ago. The Eighth Amendment to that Constitution prohibits the infliction of "cruel and unusual punishments." It seems to me that our degree of civilization should have improved considerably beyond the days of Hammurabi to the point that the death penalty has indeed become a cruel and unusual punishment. This conclusion becomes crystal clear when America's practice of capital punishment is contrasted with the abolitionist policies of so many Western liberal democracies that we like to compare ourselves to. It is about time for the United States of America to relegate this barbarous remnant of ancient times to the dustbin of history. >> >> At the end of spending six or seven class days patiently going through all the arguments for and against the death penalty with my 70 or so first year law students, almost every year it was the case that I was able to turn a tentative majority in favor of the death penalty into a solid abolitionist majority. Both at the time and in retrospect, this reversal of opinion has always given me great hope that some day the majority of the American people who supposedly support the death penalty can be educated into becoming an abolitionist majority. >> >> In this regard, the U.S. news media all tell us that a solid majority of the American people support the death penalty. I submit this is because the news media have constantly told the American people that a majority of them support the death penalty and so a majority of them do indeed support the death penalty. The U.S. news media's coverage and presentation of the death penalty in America constitutes the classic example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. >> >> As someone who reads five or six newspapers almost every day except when I am on the road, it seems to me that the news media have purposefully failed to present the abolitionist side of the death penalty debate to the American people. In the United States the editorial party line of most media seems to be that since a majority of the American people support the death penalty, there is not much point in devoting too much time, too much energy, or too much coverage to the abolitionist side of the debate. This self-induced tautology is critical because the United States Supreme Court has indicated that so long as a majority of the American people continue to support the death penalty, then it cannot be said that the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment that is prohibited by the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution. >> >> Nevertheless, the U.S. news media is itself protected by the First Amendment to that same Constitution. Therefore, because of the pivotal role played by the news media in shaping public opinion, I would submit that the news media have a constitutional responsibility to cover the abolitionist side of the debate over the death penalty on a level of complete equality with those who favor the imposition of the death penalty -- which they have so far failed to discharge. On this crucial question, whether rightly or wrongly, the Supreme Court has deferred to the judgment of U.S. public opinion. Therefore, it is up to those who shape U.S. public opinion to make sure that both sides of the death penalty debate are adequately, fairly, and equally presented. Thus, it must be the task of teachers not only to educate their students and the American people to the abolitionist point of view, but also to explain to the U.S. news media why they have a constitutional obligation to provide equal, adequate, and fair coverage of the abolitionist case against the death penalty. >> >> Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. >> >> Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. >> >> Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. >> >> This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. >> >> Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> File:5.2\deathpen.#2 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 9 17:06:33 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 17:06:33 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am a law professor and a lawyer who teaches law to law students in a law school in order to become lawyers. You can direct your comments to a Professor of Divinity at Harvard Divinity School who teaches religion to his or her students in order to become ministers/priests/rabbis/imams, etc. fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 12:00 PM To: Boyle, Francis A Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty "Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances ... 'Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.' John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us.” My grandddaugher in utero has the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the unborn of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. —CGE > On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:46 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: > > In accordance with Anglo-American Common law, there is no "human being" who can be murdered unless and until a fetus is born and born alive. Fab. > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 11:24 AM > To: Boyle, Francis A > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > Importance: High > > A compelling argument, Francis. Does it also apply to abortion? > > >> On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> From: Boyle, Francis [mailto:FBOYLE at LAW.UIUC.EDU] >> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 10:02 AM >> To: 'nppryan at compar.com' >> Subject: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >> Importance: High >> >> Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. >> >> Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. >> >> Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. >> >> This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. >> >> Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> File:5.2\deathpen.#2 >> >> >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> Law Building >> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >> 217-333-7954 (voice) >> 217-244-1478 (fax) >> fboyle at law.uiuc.edu >> (personal comments only) >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Boyle, Francis >> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:15 AM >> To: 'Multiple recipients of list' >> Subject: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >> >> >> TEACHING AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY: >> THE EXECUTION OF JOHN WAYNE GACY >> >> by >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> >> Professor of Law >> >> During almost two decades of teaching, one of the many subjects I taught for several years was substantive criminal law to about 70 first year law students. Each semester I would set aside in my course about two weeks of class sessions to deal with the death penalty. I believe that at the outset of my course a majority of the students probably supported the death penalty for one reason or another. Therefore, the task I always set for myself over those six or so class sessions was to turn that majority into a minority and thus to produce an abolitionist majority. >> >> During the course of this process, there were a number of arguments put forth by my obviously intelligent students to justify the death penalty. First came their argument based on deterrence. As we know, however, there is no unequivocal empirical evidence to prove that the death penalty deters anything. Indeed, over 50% of all homicides committed in the United States of America are what we law professors call "crimes of passion," which, by definition, cannot be deterred in the first place. In these cases, people kill in the heat of emotional and physical passion when the mental calculations presumed by the theory of deterrence are irrelevant. Likewise, a large percentage of homicides occur under the influence of alcohol when mental reasoning processes are substantially impaired and thus cannot be deterred. >> >> To the contrary, what little empirical evidence we have seems to indicate that in fact the imposition of the death penalty has a brutalizing effect on the target population by increasing the number of homicides that occur after an execution. In other words, more lives can be saved than lost by abolishing the death penalty. Since the argument for deterrence as a theory of punishment is based upon such utilitarian calculations going all the way back to Jeremy Bentham, considerations of utility demand the abolition of the death penalty. >> >> In any event, the United States Constitution requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt before someone can be found guilty of a crime. A defendant is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of twelve men and women sitting on a jury. Consistent with that overriding constitutional philosophy, those who support the death penalty must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the imposition of the death penalty (1) deters homicides; and (2) saves more lives than it takes. Clearly, the proponents of the death penalty have failed to discharge this constitutional burden of proof. Yet, we in the United States continue to execute people when we know that there exists more than a reasonable doubt that the death penalty does not deter homicides, but indeed encourages homicides. >> >> Moreover, we also know that many innocent people in the history of this country have been sentenced to death and that many innocent people have been executed. It is beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty in the United States kills innocent people. Therefore, consistent with the overriding constitutional philosophy of proof beyond a reasonable doubt in substantive criminal law, we must abolish the death penalty. >> >> Furthermore, it is beyond a reasonable doubt that historically in this country the death penalty has been disproportionately imposed upon People of Color and the Poor. This violates the fundamental guarantee found in the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which provides that everyone in this country is entitled to the Equal Protection of the Laws. The death penalty has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor, and this is due to the intrinsic nature of American society. Namely, whether we like it or not, American society is inherently racist and capitalist. For this reason, the death penalty in America has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor and will continue to do so as long as we remain a racist and capitalist society. >> >> Due to the fact that America has always been a heterogeneous society consisting of men and women drawn from different races whose ancestors came from other countries around the world, or else were brought here against their will (e.g., African Americans), or else were already here when the rest of our ancestors arrived (e.g., Native Americans), I doubt very seriously that we will ever be able to eliminate all vestiges of racism and racial discrimination from America. And I make that statement with a great deal of regret. Nevertheless, I believe it to be true. America's inherent racism has always been manifest in the disproportionate imposition of the death penalty on African Americans, Latinos, and other People of Color in this country. >> >> Similarly, America is a capitalist society run on the principle: "You get what you pay for." This is true for education, housing, health care, justice, and just about anything else. There is a direct correlation between the amount of money you can pay and the quantity and quality of justice you can obtain in America. I make that statement based upon my experience of having practiced law for over seventeen years, including stints with three large corporate law firms. >> >> Recent confirmation of this proposition can be found in the double-murder trial of O.J. Simpson. He got a lot of "justice" because he had a lot of money. Indeed, the prosecutors purposely chose not to seek the death penalty in the first place for what was obviously a capital offense under California law. >> >> By comparison, those who are charged with first-degree murder are typically left to the vicissitudes of the public defender's office -- where they exist. This is not to call into question the competence and integrity of public defenders. But I am sure most public defenders would agree that they are overworked, understaffed and underpaid. How can we in the United States allow the most critical issue our courts are ever called upon to decide--life or death--to be determined on the basis of anything but the best legal representation that can be provided. Yet, the contrary happens every day here in the United States of America. >> >> I always found it particularly distressing when my students would then argue that it is cheaper to execute a convicted murderer than to keep him or her alive. Under the pernicious influence of the so-called Law and Economics Movement originating out of the now reactionary University of Chicago (where I attended college), arguments based upon principles of economic efficiency, utility, profit and outright greed have come to supplant considerations of justice, fairness, and compassion at an increasingly larger number of law schools in America today. Nevertheless, the statistics prove this economic argument in favor of the death penalty to be false as well. It is far more expensive to execute someone than to keep that individual alive for the rest of his or her natural life in prison. >> >> Indeed, the leading econometric study of the death penalty -- Ehrlich, The Deterrent Effect of Capital Punishment: A Question of Life and Death, 65 Amer. Econ. Rev. 397 (1975) -- found in part that the murder rate is negatively related to the labor force participation rate and positively to the unemployment rate. Hence, the rate of murder and other related crimes can be reduced through increased employment and earnings opportunities. Thus, I argued to my first year law students, perhaps the most effective way to prevent homicides was to make it a serious federal crime for government decision-makers to pursue economic policies that they know will increase the rate of unemployment in the United States. >> >> Furthermore, as a teacher I always objected to the immoral premises that underlie the economic argument in favor of the death penalty. The State has absolutely no right to take a human life because it is allegedly cheaper to kill that person than to keep him or her alive for any reason. Otherwise, the State would have a license to kill anyone that it does not deem to be economically productive or efficient: premature infants in neonatology wards; paraplegics and quadriplegics; the mentally retarded; the physically handicapped; the psychologically disturbed; the welfare mother; the senior citizen with Alzheimer's disease, etc. There would be no end in sight to the human carnage if America were to make decisions on whether the State should put people to death for economic reasons. If this self-styled principle of economic efficiency is allowed to prevail in America, then our society will become not much different from Nazi Germany where the terror of execution was used to produce a master race. In other words, we would be using the principle of economic efficiency to exterminate all those whom a certain group of us believe do not live up to some minimal criteria for existence. >> >> The Second World War and the Nazi Holocaust against the Jewish People, the Slavic Peoples--such as Russians and Poles--as well as Gypsies was the ultimate working-out of this philosophy: the so-called Final Solution. Yet, we here in the United States use the death penalty as our "Final Solution" to the most serious problems that confront our society today--poverty, racism, unemployment, drug abuse, etc. For example, a few years ago our so-called drug czar, William Bennett, publicly called for the beheading of drug dealers. >> >> Our government decision-makers wield the death penalty as the ultimate form of state terrorism in order to keep the enormous injustices, inequalities, hypocrisies, and deficiencies of American society within what they believe to be tolerable limits. This calls to mind the critique of the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution put forth by Edmund Burke, the great conservative: At the end of every vista, one sees nothing but the gallows. That is an incredibly accurate description of America today. Yet, somewhat paradoxically, Burke has always been the great philosophical hero to the conservative movement in the United States. >> >> The final argument in support of the death penalty goes back, supposedly, to the Bible. In other words, the Law of the Talon--an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, stripe for stripe, etc. Of course, you cannot find that argument in the New Testament, but to the contrary a philosophy that is premised on a diametrically opposed operational rationale: turn the other cheek, give the other cloak, walk the extra mile, etc. This is not to argue that the New Testament is better or worse than the Old Testament on this or any other matter. But rather, that those who cite the Bible in support of the death penalty conveniently overlook the philosophy of love, forgiveness and compassion preached by Jesus Christ and his immediate disciples. >> >> Thus, when publicly asked his opinion about the pending execution of an adulterous woman by stoning as required by law, Christ retorted: "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." Certainly "Christian" proponents of the death penalty in America should ponder the meaning of this injunction. After all, Christ himself was the ultimate victim of capital punishment. >> >> Nevertheless, the Law of the Talon did not originate with the Bible, but rather with Hammurabi, the first great king of Babylon, around 1700 B.C. At that time, Hammurabi promulgated what has come to be known as Hammurabi's Code, the essence of which was the Law of the Talon. Yet, originally, Hammurabi intended this principle to be progressive, not regressive. The Law of the Talon was designed to establish some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime. >> >> Before Hammurabi's Code, in the customary practice of ancient Babylon, there was no necessary requirement of proportionality between punishment and crime. Rather, a system of blood feud based upon revenge prevailed whereby the victim's family would wreak vengeance against the perpetrator or his family that oftentimes was completely disproportionate to the original offense. Hammurabi wanted to take the enforcement of criminal law out of the hands of private individuals and put it into the hands of the state to prevent the private anarchy of the blood feud. In addition, he also wanted to institute some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime, and thus to impose some humanitarian limitations upon the enforcement of criminal law penalties. >> >> Hammurabi's Code was promulgated around the year 1700 B.C. by the ruler of one of the Middle Eastern world's first great military empires. And yet today, almost four millennia later, we here in the American Empire still have people citing Hammurabi's Law of the Talon to justify the death penalty despite the fact that we are supposed to be a popular democracy with a commitment to the Rule of Law. Indeed, here in the United States of America, we instituted a Constitution for all the people over 200 years ago. The Eighth Amendment to that Constitution prohibits the infliction of "cruel and unusual punishments." It seems to me that our degree of civilization should have improved considerably beyond the days of Hammurabi to the point that the death penalty has indeed become a cruel and unusual punishment. This conclusion becomes crystal clear when America's practice of capital punishment is contrasted with the abolitionist policies of so many Western liberal democracies that we like to compare ourselves to. It is about time for the United States of America to relegate this barbarous remnant of ancient times to the dustbin of history. >> >> At the end of spending six or seven class days patiently going through all the arguments for and against the death penalty with my 70 or so first year law students, almost every year it was the case that I was able to turn a tentative majority in favor of the death penalty into a solid abolitionist majority. Both at the time and in retrospect, this reversal of opinion has always given me great hope that some day the majority of the American people who supposedly support the death penalty can be educated into becoming an abolitionist majority. >> >> In this regard, the U.S. news media all tell us that a solid majority of the American people support the death penalty. I submit this is because the news media have constantly told the American people that a majority of them support the death penalty and so a majority of them do indeed support the death penalty. The U.S. news media's coverage and presentation of the death penalty in America constitutes the classic example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. >> >> As someone who reads five or six newspapers almost every day except when I am on the road, it seems to me that the news media have purposefully failed to present the abolitionist side of the death penalty debate to the American people. In the United States the editorial party line of most media seems to be that since a majority of the American people support the death penalty, there is not much point in devoting too much time, too much energy, or too much coverage to the abolitionist side of the debate. This self-induced tautology is critical because the United States Supreme Court has indicated that so long as a majority of the American people continue to support the death penalty, then it cannot be said that the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment that is prohibited by the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution. >> >> Nevertheless, the U.S. news media is itself protected by the First Amendment to that same Constitution. Therefore, because of the pivotal role played by the news media in shaping public opinion, I would submit that the news media have a constitutional responsibility to cover the abolitionist side of the debate over the death penalty on a level of complete equality with those who favor the imposition of the death penalty -- which they have so far failed to discharge. On this crucial question, whether rightly or wrongly, the Supreme Court has deferred to the judgment of U.S. public opinion. Therefore, it is up to those who shape U.S. public opinion to make sure that both sides of the death penalty debate are adequately, fairly, and equally presented. Thus, it must be the task of teachers not only to educate their students and the American people to the abolitionist point of view, but also to explain to the U.S. news media why they have a constitutional obligation to provide equal, adequate, and fair coverage of the abolitionist case against the death penalty. >> >> Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. >> >> Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. >> >> Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. >> >> This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. >> >> Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> File:5.2\deathpen.#2 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Jun 9 17:41:23 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 12:41:23 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> It’s not a question of ‘divinity’ but of human rights. > On Jun 9, 2018, at 12:06 PM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: > > I am a law professor and a lawyer who teaches law to law students in a law school in order to become lawyers. You can direct your comments to a Professor of Divinity at Harvard Divinity School who teaches religion to his or her students in order to become ministers/priests/rabbis/imams, etc. fab. > > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 12:00 PM > To: Boyle, Francis A > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > "Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances ... 'Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.' John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us.” > > My grandddaugher in utero has the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the unborn of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. —CGE > > >> On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:46 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> In accordance with Anglo-American Common law, there is no "human being" who can be murdered unless and until a fetus is born and born alive. Fab. >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> Law Building >> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >> Champaign IL 61820 USA >> 217-333-7954 (phone) >> 217-244-1478 (fax) >> (personal comments only) >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 11:24 AM >> To: Boyle, Francis A >> Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >> Importance: High >> >> A compelling argument, Francis. Does it also apply to abortion? >> >> >>> On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> From: Boyle, Francis [mailto:FBOYLE at LAW.UIUC.EDU] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 10:02 AM >>> To: 'nppryan at compar.com' >>> Subject: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>> Importance: High >>> >>> Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. >>> >>> Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. >>> >>> Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. >>> >>> This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. >>> >>> Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> File:5.2\deathpen.#2 >>> >>> >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Law Building >>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>> 217-333-7954 (voice) >>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>> fboyle at law.uiuc.edu >>> (personal comments only) >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Boyle, Francis >>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:15 AM >>> To: 'Multiple recipients of list' >>> Subject: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>> >>> >>> TEACHING AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY: >>> THE EXECUTION OF JOHN WAYNE GACY >>> >>> by >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> >>> Professor of Law >>> >>> During almost two decades of teaching, one of the many subjects I taught for several years was substantive criminal law to about 70 first year law students. Each semester I would set aside in my course about two weeks of class sessions to deal with the death penalty. I believe that at the outset of my course a majority of the students probably supported the death penalty for one reason or another. Therefore, the task I always set for myself over those six or so class sessions was to turn that majority into a minority and thus to produce an abolitionist majority. >>> >>> During the course of this process, there were a number of arguments put forth by my obviously intelligent students to justify the death penalty. First came their argument based on deterrence. As we know, however, there is no unequivocal empirical evidence to prove that the death penalty deters anything. Indeed, over 50% of all homicides committed in the United States of America are what we law professors call "crimes of passion," which, by definition, cannot be deterred in the first place. In these cases, people kill in the heat of emotional and physical passion when the mental calculations presumed by the theory of deterrence are irrelevant. Likewise, a large percentage of homicides occur under the influence of alcohol when mental reasoning processes are substantially impaired and thus cannot be deterred. >>> >>> To the contrary, what little empirical evidence we have seems to indicate that in fact the imposition of the death penalty has a brutalizing effect on the target population by increasing the number of homicides that occur after an execution. In other words, more lives can be saved than lost by abolishing the death penalty. Since the argument for deterrence as a theory of punishment is based upon such utilitarian calculations going all the way back to Jeremy Bentham, considerations of utility demand the abolition of the death penalty. >>> >>> In any event, the United States Constitution requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt before someone can be found guilty of a crime. A defendant is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of twelve men and women sitting on a jury. Consistent with that overriding constitutional philosophy, those who support the death penalty must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the imposition of the death penalty (1) deters homicides; and (2) saves more lives than it takes. Clearly, the proponents of the death penalty have failed to discharge this constitutional burden of proof. Yet, we in the United States continue to execute people when we know that there exists more than a reasonable doubt that the death penalty does not deter homicides, but indeed encourages homicides. >>> >>> Moreover, we also know that many innocent people in the history of this country have been sentenced to death and that many innocent people have been executed. It is beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty in the United States kills innocent people. Therefore, consistent with the overriding constitutional philosophy of proof beyond a reasonable doubt in substantive criminal law, we must abolish the death penalty. >>> >>> Furthermore, it is beyond a reasonable doubt that historically in this country the death penalty has been disproportionately imposed upon People of Color and the Poor. This violates the fundamental guarantee found in the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which provides that everyone in this country is entitled to the Equal Protection of the Laws. The death penalty has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor, and this is due to the intrinsic nature of American society. Namely, whether we like it or not, American society is inherently racist and capitalist. For this reason, the death penalty in America has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor and will continue to do so as long as we remain a racist and capitalist society. >>> >>> Due to the fact that America has always been a heterogeneous society consisting of men and women drawn from different races whose ancestors came from other countries around the world, or else were brought here against their will (e.g., African Americans), or else were already here when the rest of our ancestors arrived (e.g., Native Americans), I doubt very seriously that we will ever be able to eliminate all vestiges of racism and racial discrimination from America. And I make that statement with a great deal of regret. Nevertheless, I believe it to be true. America's inherent racism has always been manifest in the disproportionate imposition of the death penalty on African Americans, Latinos, and other People of Color in this country. >>> >>> Similarly, America is a capitalist society run on the principle: "You get what you pay for." This is true for education, housing, health care, justice, and just about anything else. There is a direct correlation between the amount of money you can pay and the quantity and quality of justice you can obtain in America. I make that statement based upon my experience of having practiced law for over seventeen years, including stints with three large corporate law firms. >>> >>> Recent confirmation of this proposition can be found in the double-murder trial of O.J. Simpson. He got a lot of "justice" because he had a lot of money. Indeed, the prosecutors purposely chose not to seek the death penalty in the first place for what was obviously a capital offense under California law. >>> >>> By comparison, those who are charged with first-degree murder are typically left to the vicissitudes of the public defender's office -- where they exist. This is not to call into question the competence and integrity of public defenders. But I am sure most public defenders would agree that they are overworked, understaffed and underpaid. How can we in the United States allow the most critical issue our courts are ever called upon to decide--life or death--to be determined on the basis of anything but the best legal representation that can be provided. Yet, the contrary happens every day here in the United States of America. >>> >>> I always found it particularly distressing when my students would then argue that it is cheaper to execute a convicted murderer than to keep him or her alive. Under the pernicious influence of the so-called Law and Economics Movement originating out of the now reactionary University of Chicago (where I attended college), arguments based upon principles of economic efficiency, utility, profit and outright greed have come to supplant considerations of justice, fairness, and compassion at an increasingly larger number of law schools in America today. Nevertheless, the statistics prove this economic argument in favor of the death penalty to be false as well. It is far more expensive to execute someone than to keep that individual alive for the rest of his or her natural life in prison. >>> >>> Indeed, the leading econometric study of the death penalty -- Ehrlich, The Deterrent Effect of Capital Punishment: A Question of Life and Death, 65 Amer. Econ. Rev. 397 (1975) -- found in part that the murder rate is negatively related to the labor force participation rate and positively to the unemployment rate. Hence, the rate of murder and other related crimes can be reduced through increased employment and earnings opportunities. Thus, I argued to my first year law students, perhaps the most effective way to prevent homicides was to make it a serious federal crime for government decision-makers to pursue economic policies that they know will increase the rate of unemployment in the United States. >>> >>> Furthermore, as a teacher I always objected to the immoral premises that underlie the economic argument in favor of the death penalty. The State has absolutely no right to take a human life because it is allegedly cheaper to kill that person than to keep him or her alive for any reason. Otherwise, the State would have a license to kill anyone that it does not deem to be economically productive or efficient: premature infants in neonatology wards; paraplegics and quadriplegics; the mentally retarded; the physically handicapped; the psychologically disturbed; the welfare mother; the senior citizen with Alzheimer's disease, etc. There would be no end in sight to the human carnage if America were to make decisions on whether the State should put people to death for economic reasons. If this self-styled principle of economic efficiency is allowed to prevail in America, then our society will become not much different from Nazi Germany where the terror of execution was used to produce a master race. In other words, we would be using the principle of economic efficiency to exterminate all those whom a certain group of us believe do not live up to some minimal criteria for existence. >>> >>> The Second World War and the Nazi Holocaust against the Jewish People, the Slavic Peoples--such as Russians and Poles--as well as Gypsies was the ultimate working-out of this philosophy: the so-called Final Solution. Yet, we here in the United States use the death penalty as our "Final Solution" to the most serious problems that confront our society today--poverty, racism, unemployment, drug abuse, etc. For example, a few years ago our so-called drug czar, William Bennett, publicly called for the beheading of drug dealers. >>> >>> Our government decision-makers wield the death penalty as the ultimate form of state terrorism in order to keep the enormous injustices, inequalities, hypocrisies, and deficiencies of American society within what they believe to be tolerable limits. This calls to mind the critique of the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution put forth by Edmund Burke, the great conservative: At the end of every vista, one sees nothing but the gallows. That is an incredibly accurate description of America today. Yet, somewhat paradoxically, Burke has always been the great philosophical hero to the conservative movement in the United States. >>> >>> The final argument in support of the death penalty goes back, supposedly, to the Bible. In other words, the Law of the Talon--an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, stripe for stripe, etc. Of course, you cannot find that argument in the New Testament, but to the contrary a philosophy that is premised on a diametrically opposed operational rationale: turn the other cheek, give the other cloak, walk the extra mile, etc. This is not to argue that the New Testament is better or worse than the Old Testament on this or any other matter. But rather, that those who cite the Bible in support of the death penalty conveniently overlook the philosophy of love, forgiveness and compassion preached by Jesus Christ and his immediate disciples. >>> >>> Thus, when publicly asked his opinion about the pending execution of an adulterous woman by stoning as required by law, Christ retorted: "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." Certainly "Christian" proponents of the death penalty in America should ponder the meaning of this injunction. After all, Christ himself was the ultimate victim of capital punishment. >>> >>> Nevertheless, the Law of the Talon did not originate with the Bible, but rather with Hammurabi, the first great king of Babylon, around 1700 B.C. At that time, Hammurabi promulgated what has come to be known as Hammurabi's Code, the essence of which was the Law of the Talon. Yet, originally, Hammurabi intended this principle to be progressive, not regressive. The Law of the Talon was designed to establish some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime. >>> >>> Before Hammurabi's Code, in the customary practice of ancient Babylon, there was no necessary requirement of proportionality between punishment and crime. Rather, a system of blood feud based upon revenge prevailed whereby the victim's family would wreak vengeance against the perpetrator or his family that oftentimes was completely disproportionate to the original offense. Hammurabi wanted to take the enforcement of criminal law out of the hands of private individuals and put it into the hands of the state to prevent the private anarchy of the blood feud. In addition, he also wanted to institute some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime, and thus to impose some humanitarian limitations upon the enforcement of criminal law penalties. >>> >>> Hammurabi's Code was promulgated around the year 1700 B.C. by the ruler of one of the Middle Eastern world's first great military empires. And yet today, almost four millennia later, we here in the American Empire still have people citing Hammurabi's Law of the Talon to justify the death penalty despite the fact that we are supposed to be a popular democracy with a commitment to the Rule of Law. Indeed, here in the United States of America, we instituted a Constitution for all the people over 200 years ago. The Eighth Amendment to that Constitution prohibits the infliction of "cruel and unusual punishments." It seems to me that our degree of civilization should have improved considerably beyond the days of Hammurabi to the point that the death penalty has indeed become a cruel and unusual punishment. This conclusion becomes crystal clear when America's practice of capital punishment is contrasted with the abolitionist policies of so many Western liberal democracies that we like to compare ourselves to. It is about time for the United States of America to relegate this barbarous remnant of ancient times to the dustbin of history. >>> >>> At the end of spending six or seven class days patiently going through all the arguments for and against the death penalty with my 70 or so first year law students, almost every year it was the case that I was able to turn a tentative majority in favor of the death penalty into a solid abolitionist majority. Both at the time and in retrospect, this reversal of opinion has always given me great hope that some day the majority of the American people who supposedly support the death penalty can be educated into becoming an abolitionist majority. >>> >>> In this regard, the U.S. news media all tell us that a solid majority of the American people support the death penalty. I submit this is because the news media have constantly told the American people that a majority of them support the death penalty and so a majority of them do indeed support the death penalty. The U.S. news media's coverage and presentation of the death penalty in America constitutes the classic example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. >>> >>> As someone who reads five or six newspapers almost every day except when I am on the road, it seems to me that the news media have purposefully failed to present the abolitionist side of the death penalty debate to the American people. In the United States the editorial party line of most media seems to be that since a majority of the American people support the death penalty, there is not much point in devoting too much time, too much energy, or too much coverage to the abolitionist side of the debate. This self-induced tautology is critical because the United States Supreme Court has indicated that so long as a majority of the American people continue to support the death penalty, then it cannot be said that the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment that is prohibited by the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution. >>> >>> Nevertheless, the U.S. news media is itself protected by the First Amendment to that same Constitution. Therefore, because of the pivotal role played by the news media in shaping public opinion, I would submit that the news media have a constitutional responsibility to cover the abolitionist side of the debate over the death penalty on a level of complete equality with those who favor the imposition of the death penalty -- which they have so far failed to discharge. On this crucial question, whether rightly or wrongly, the Supreme Court has deferred to the judgment of U.S. public opinion. Therefore, it is up to those who shape U.S. public opinion to make sure that both sides of the death penalty debate are adequately, fairly, and equally presented. Thus, it must be the task of teachers not only to educate their students and the American people to the abolitionist point of view, but also to explain to the U.S. news media why they have a constitutional obligation to provide equal, adequate, and fair coverage of the abolitionist case against the death penalty. >>> >>> Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. >>> >>> Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. >>> >>> Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. >>> >>> This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. >>> >>> Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> File:5.2\deathpen.#2 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 9 17:52:00 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 17:52:00 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> Message-ID: "human rights" Yet once again you are deliberately serving as an Agent Provocateur on this list in order to distract everyone from dealing with the issue at hand that was raised by Karen and seconded by me: Governor Rauner's malicious attempt to reinstitute the death penalty in order to get himself re-elected.But I will answer you once more but not again: In accordance with the Anglo-American Common Law of Crimes that I was hired to teach here and taught for several years, there is no "human being" who can be homicided unless and until the fetus is actually born and is born alive. Go take your arguments to Harvard Divinity School! Right now we are dealing with Rauner's attempt to reinstate the death penalty in Illinois. Francis A. Boyle Professor of Law Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 12:41 PM To: Boyle, Francis A Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty It’s not a question of ‘divinity’ but of human rights. > On Jun 9, 2018, at 12:06 PM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: > > I am a law professor and a lawyer who teaches law to law students in a law school in order to become lawyers. You can direct your comments to a Professor of Divinity at Harvard Divinity School who teaches religion to his or her students in order to become ministers/priests/rabbis/imams, etc. fab. > > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 12:00 PM > To: Boyle, Francis A > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > "Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances ... 'Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.' John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us.” > > My grandddaugher in utero has the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the unborn of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. —CGE > > >> On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:46 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> In accordance with Anglo-American Common law, there is no "human being" who can be murdered unless and until a fetus is born and born alive. Fab. >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> Law Building >> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >> Champaign IL 61820 USA >> 217-333-7954 (phone) >> 217-244-1478 (fax) >> (personal comments only) >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 11:24 AM >> To: Boyle, Francis A >> Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >> Importance: High >> >> A compelling argument, Francis. Does it also apply to abortion? >> >> >>> On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> From: Boyle, Francis [mailto:FBOYLE at LAW.UIUC.EDU] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 10:02 AM >>> To: 'nppryan at compar.com' >>> Subject: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>> Importance: High >>> >>> Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. >>> >>> Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. >>> >>> Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. >>> >>> This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. >>> >>> Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> File:5.2\deathpen.#2 >>> >>> >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Law Building >>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>> 217-333-7954 (voice) >>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>> fboyle at law.uiuc.edu >>> (personal comments only) >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Boyle, Francis >>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:15 AM >>> To: 'Multiple recipients of list' >>> Subject: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>> >>> >>> TEACHING AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY: >>> THE EXECUTION OF JOHN WAYNE GACY >>> >>> by >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> >>> Professor of Law >>> >>> During almost two decades of teaching, one of the many subjects I taught for several years was substantive criminal law to about 70 first year law students. Each semester I would set aside in my course about two weeks of class sessions to deal with the death penalty. I believe that at the outset of my course a majority of the students probably supported the death penalty for one reason or another. Therefore, the task I always set for myself over those six or so class sessions was to turn that majority into a minority and thus to produce an abolitionist majority. >>> >>> During the course of this process, there were a number of arguments put forth by my obviously intelligent students to justify the death penalty. First came their argument based on deterrence. As we know, however, there is no unequivocal empirical evidence to prove that the death penalty deters anything. Indeed, over 50% of all homicides committed in the United States of America are what we law professors call "crimes of passion," which, by definition, cannot be deterred in the first place. In these cases, people kill in the heat of emotional and physical passion when the mental calculations presumed by the theory of deterrence are irrelevant. Likewise, a large percentage of homicides occur under the influence of alcohol when mental reasoning processes are substantially impaired and thus cannot be deterred. >>> >>> To the contrary, what little empirical evidence we have seems to indicate that in fact the imposition of the death penalty has a brutalizing effect on the target population by increasing the number of homicides that occur after an execution. In other words, more lives can be saved than lost by abolishing the death penalty. Since the argument for deterrence as a theory of punishment is based upon such utilitarian calculations going all the way back to Jeremy Bentham, considerations of utility demand the abolition of the death penalty. >>> >>> In any event, the United States Constitution requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt before someone can be found guilty of a crime. A defendant is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of twelve men and women sitting on a jury. Consistent with that overriding constitutional philosophy, those who support the death penalty must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the imposition of the death penalty (1) deters homicides; and (2) saves more lives than it takes. Clearly, the proponents of the death penalty have failed to discharge this constitutional burden of proof. Yet, we in the United States continue to execute people when we know that there exists more than a reasonable doubt that the death penalty does not deter homicides, but indeed encourages homicides. >>> >>> Moreover, we also know that many innocent people in the history of this country have been sentenced to death and that many innocent people have been executed. It is beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty in the United States kills innocent people. Therefore, consistent with the overriding constitutional philosophy of proof beyond a reasonable doubt in substantive criminal law, we must abolish the death penalty. >>> >>> Furthermore, it is beyond a reasonable doubt that historically in this country the death penalty has been disproportionately imposed upon People of Color and the Poor. This violates the fundamental guarantee found in the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which provides that everyone in this country is entitled to the Equal Protection of the Laws. The death penalty has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor, and this is due to the intrinsic nature of American society. Namely, whether we like it or not, American society is inherently racist and capitalist. For this reason, the death penalty in America has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor and will continue to do so as long as we remain a racist and capitalist society. >>> >>> Due to the fact that America has always been a heterogeneous society consisting of men and women drawn from different races whose ancestors came from other countries around the world, or else were brought here against their will (e.g., African Americans), or else were already here when the rest of our ancestors arrived (e.g., Native Americans), I doubt very seriously that we will ever be able to eliminate all vestiges of racism and racial discrimination from America. And I make that statement with a great deal of regret. Nevertheless, I believe it to be true. America's inherent racism has always been manifest in the disproportionate imposition of the death penalty on African Americans, Latinos, and other People of Color in this country. >>> >>> Similarly, America is a capitalist society run on the principle: "You get what you pay for." This is true for education, housing, health care, justice, and just about anything else. There is a direct correlation between the amount of money you can pay and the quantity and quality of justice you can obtain in America. I make that statement based upon my experience of having practiced law for over seventeen years, including stints with three large corporate law firms. >>> >>> Recent confirmation of this proposition can be found in the double-murder trial of O.J. Simpson. He got a lot of "justice" because he had a lot of money. Indeed, the prosecutors purposely chose not to seek the death penalty in the first place for what was obviously a capital offense under California law. >>> >>> By comparison, those who are charged with first-degree murder are typically left to the vicissitudes of the public defender's office -- where they exist. This is not to call into question the competence and integrity of public defenders. But I am sure most public defenders would agree that they are overworked, understaffed and underpaid. How can we in the United States allow the most critical issue our courts are ever called upon to decide--life or death--to be determined on the basis of anything but the best legal representation that can be provided. Yet, the contrary happens every day here in the United States of America. >>> >>> I always found it particularly distressing when my students would then argue that it is cheaper to execute a convicted murderer than to keep him or her alive. Under the pernicious influence of the so-called Law and Economics Movement originating out of the now reactionary University of Chicago (where I attended college), arguments based upon principles of economic efficiency, utility, profit and outright greed have come to supplant considerations of justice, fairness, and compassion at an increasingly larger number of law schools in America today. Nevertheless, the statistics prove this economic argument in favor of the death penalty to be false as well. It is far more expensive to execute someone than to keep that individual alive for the rest of his or her natural life in prison. >>> >>> Indeed, the leading econometric study of the death penalty -- Ehrlich, The Deterrent Effect of Capital Punishment: A Question of Life and Death, 65 Amer. Econ. Rev. 397 (1975) -- found in part that the murder rate is negatively related to the labor force participation rate and positively to the unemployment rate. Hence, the rate of murder and other related crimes can be reduced through increased employment and earnings opportunities. Thus, I argued to my first year law students, perhaps the most effective way to prevent homicides was to make it a serious federal crime for government decision-makers to pursue economic policies that they know will increase the rate of unemployment in the United States. >>> >>> Furthermore, as a teacher I always objected to the immoral premises that underlie the economic argument in favor of the death penalty. The State has absolutely no right to take a human life because it is allegedly cheaper to kill that person than to keep him or her alive for any reason. Otherwise, the State would have a license to kill anyone that it does not deem to be economically productive or efficient: premature infants in neonatology wards; paraplegics and quadriplegics; the mentally retarded; the physically handicapped; the psychologically disturbed; the welfare mother; the senior citizen with Alzheimer's disease, etc. There would be no end in sight to the human carnage if America were to make decisions on whether the State should put people to death for economic reasons. If this self-styled principle of economic efficiency is allowed to prevail in America, then our society will become not much different from Nazi Germany where the terror of execution was used to produce a master race. In other words, we would be using the principle of economic efficiency to exterminate all those whom a certain group of us believe do not live up to some minimal criteria for existence. >>> >>> The Second World War and the Nazi Holocaust against the Jewish People, the Slavic Peoples--such as Russians and Poles--as well as Gypsies was the ultimate working-out of this philosophy: the so-called Final Solution. Yet, we here in the United States use the death penalty as our "Final Solution" to the most serious problems that confront our society today--poverty, racism, unemployment, drug abuse, etc. For example, a few years ago our so-called drug czar, William Bennett, publicly called for the beheading of drug dealers. >>> >>> Our government decision-makers wield the death penalty as the ultimate form of state terrorism in order to keep the enormous injustices, inequalities, hypocrisies, and deficiencies of American society within what they believe to be tolerable limits. This calls to mind the critique of the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution put forth by Edmund Burke, the great conservative: At the end of every vista, one sees nothing but the gallows. That is an incredibly accurate description of America today. Yet, somewhat paradoxically, Burke has always been the great philosophical hero to the conservative movement in the United States. >>> >>> The final argument in support of the death penalty goes back, supposedly, to the Bible. In other words, the Law of the Talon--an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, stripe for stripe, etc. Of course, you cannot find that argument in the New Testament, but to the contrary a philosophy that is premised on a diametrically opposed operational rationale: turn the other cheek, give the other cloak, walk the extra mile, etc. This is not to argue that the New Testament is better or worse than the Old Testament on this or any other matter. But rather, that those who cite the Bible in support of the death penalty conveniently overlook the philosophy of love, forgiveness and compassion preached by Jesus Christ and his immediate disciples. >>> >>> Thus, when publicly asked his opinion about the pending execution of an adulterous woman by stoning as required by law, Christ retorted: "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." Certainly "Christian" proponents of the death penalty in America should ponder the meaning of this injunction. After all, Christ himself was the ultimate victim of capital punishment. >>> >>> Nevertheless, the Law of the Talon did not originate with the Bible, but rather with Hammurabi, the first great king of Babylon, around 1700 B.C. At that time, Hammurabi promulgated what has come to be known as Hammurabi's Code, the essence of which was the Law of the Talon. Yet, originally, Hammurabi intended this principle to be progressive, not regressive. The Law of the Talon was designed to establish some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime. >>> >>> Before Hammurabi's Code, in the customary practice of ancient Babylon, there was no necessary requirement of proportionality between punishment and crime. Rather, a system of blood feud based upon revenge prevailed whereby the victim's family would wreak vengeance against the perpetrator or his family that oftentimes was completely disproportionate to the original offense. Hammurabi wanted to take the enforcement of criminal law out of the hands of private individuals and put it into the hands of the state to prevent the private anarchy of the blood feud. In addition, he also wanted to institute some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime, and thus to impose some humanitarian limitations upon the enforcement of criminal law penalties. >>> >>> Hammurabi's Code was promulgated around the year 1700 B.C. by the ruler of one of the Middle Eastern world's first great military empires. And yet today, almost four millennia later, we here in the American Empire still have people citing Hammurabi's Law of the Talon to justify the death penalty despite the fact that we are supposed to be a popular democracy with a commitment to the Rule of Law. Indeed, here in the United States of America, we instituted a Constitution for all the people over 200 years ago. The Eighth Amendment to that Constitution prohibits the infliction of "cruel and unusual punishments." It seems to me that our degree of civilization should have improved considerably beyond the days of Hammurabi to the point that the death penalty has indeed become a cruel and unusual punishment. This conclusion becomes crystal clear when America's practice of capital punishment is contrasted with the abolitionist policies of so many Western liberal democracies that we like to compare ourselves to. It is about time for the United States of America to relegate this barbarous remnant of ancient times to the dustbin of history. >>> >>> At the end of spending six or seven class days patiently going through all the arguments for and against the death penalty with my 70 or so first year law students, almost every year it was the case that I was able to turn a tentative majority in favor of the death penalty into a solid abolitionist majority. Both at the time and in retrospect, this reversal of opinion has always given me great hope that some day the majority of the American people who supposedly support the death penalty can be educated into becoming an abolitionist majority. >>> >>> In this regard, the U.S. news media all tell us that a solid majority of the American people support the death penalty. I submit this is because the news media have constantly told the American people that a majority of them support the death penalty and so a majority of them do indeed support the death penalty. The U.S. news media's coverage and presentation of the death penalty in America constitutes the classic example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. >>> >>> As someone who reads five or six newspapers almost every day except when I am on the road, it seems to me that the news media have purposefully failed to present the abolitionist side of the death penalty debate to the American people. In the United States the editorial party line of most media seems to be that since a majority of the American people support the death penalty, there is not much point in devoting too much time, too much energy, or too much coverage to the abolitionist side of the debate. This self-induced tautology is critical because the United States Supreme Court has indicated that so long as a majority of the American people continue to support the death penalty, then it cannot be said that the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment that is prohibited by the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution. >>> >>> Nevertheless, the U.S. news media is itself protected by the First Amendment to that same Constitution. Therefore, because of the pivotal role played by the news media in shaping public opinion, I would submit that the news media have a constitutional responsibility to cover the abolitionist side of the debate over the death penalty on a level of complete equality with those who favor the imposition of the death penalty -- which they have so far failed to discharge. On this crucial question, whether rightly or wrongly, the Supreme Court has deferred to the judgment of U.S. public opinion. Therefore, it is up to those who shape U.S. public opinion to make sure that both sides of the death penalty debate are adequately, fairly, and equally presented. Thus, it must be the task of teachers not only to educate their students and the American people to the abolitionist point of view, but also to explain to the U.S. news media why they have a constitutional obligation to provide equal, adequate, and fair coverage of the abolitionist case against the death penalty. >>> >>> Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. >>> >>> Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. >>> >>> Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. >>> >>> This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. >>> >>> Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> File:5.2\deathpen.#2 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Jun 9 18:07:47 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 13:07:47 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> Message-ID: And you’re perfectly aware that that’s a vacuous argument that you’re stuck with. > On Jun 9, 2018, at 12:52 PM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: > > "human rights" > Yet once again you are deliberately serving as an Agent Provocateur on this list in order to distract everyone from dealing with the issue at hand that was raised by Karen and seconded by me: Governor Rauner's malicious attempt to reinstitute the death penalty in order to get himself re-elected.But I will answer you once more but not again: In accordance with the Anglo-American Common Law of Crimes that I was hired to teach here and taught for several years, there is no "human being" who can be homicided unless and until the fetus is actually born and is born alive. Go take your arguments to Harvard Divinity School! Right now we are dealing with Rauner's attempt to reinstate the death penalty in Illinois. > Francis A. Boyle > Professor of Law > > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 12:41 PM > To: Boyle, Francis A > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > It’s not a question of ‘divinity’ but of human rights. > > >> On Jun 9, 2018, at 12:06 PM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> I am a law professor and a lawyer who teaches law to law students in a law school in order to become lawyers. You can direct your comments to a Professor of Divinity at Harvard Divinity School who teaches religion to his or her students in order to become ministers/priests/rabbis/imams, etc. fab. >> >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> Law Building >> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >> Champaign IL 61820 USA >> 217-333-7954 (phone) >> 217-244-1478 (fax) >> (personal comments only) >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 12:00 PM >> To: Boyle, Francis A >> Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >> >> "Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances ... 'Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.' John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us.” >> >> My grandddaugher in utero has the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the unborn of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. —CGE >> >> >>> On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:46 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> In accordance with Anglo-American Common law, there is no "human being" who can be murdered unless and until a fetus is born and born alive. Fab. >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Law Building >>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>> Champaign IL 61820 USA >>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>> (personal comments only) >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 11:24 AM >>> To: Boyle, Francis A >>> Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) >>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>> Importance: High >>> >>> A compelling argument, Francis. Does it also apply to abortion? >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> From: Boyle, Francis [mailto:FBOYLE at LAW.UIUC.EDU] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 10:02 AM >>>> To: 'nppryan at compar.com' >>>> Subject: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>>> Importance: High >>>> >>>> Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. >>>> >>>> Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. >>>> >>>> Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. >>>> >>>> This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. >>>> >>>> Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> File:5.2\deathpen.#2 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Francis A. Boyle >>>> Law Building >>>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>>> 217-333-7954 (voice) >>>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>>> fboyle at law.uiuc.edu >>>> (personal comments only) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Boyle, Francis >>>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:15 AM >>>> To: 'Multiple recipients of list' >>>> Subject: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>>> >>>> >>>> TEACHING AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY: >>>> THE EXECUTION OF JOHN WAYNE GACY >>>> >>>> by >>>> >>>> Francis A. Boyle >>>> >>>> Professor of Law >>>> >>>> During almost two decades of teaching, one of the many subjects I taught for several years was substantive criminal law to about 70 first year law students. Each semester I would set aside in my course about two weeks of class sessions to deal with the death penalty. I believe that at the outset of my course a majority of the students probably supported the death penalty for one reason or another. Therefore, the task I always set for myself over those six or so class sessions was to turn that majority into a minority and thus to produce an abolitionist majority. >>>> >>>> During the course of this process, there were a number of arguments put forth by my obviously intelligent students to justify the death penalty. First came their argument based on deterrence. As we know, however, there is no unequivocal empirical evidence to prove that the death penalty deters anything. Indeed, over 50% of all homicides committed in the United States of America are what we law professors call "crimes of passion," which, by definition, cannot be deterred in the first place. In these cases, people kill in the heat of emotional and physical passion when the mental calculations presumed by the theory of deterrence are irrelevant. Likewise, a large percentage of homicides occur under the influence of alcohol when mental reasoning processes are substantially impaired and thus cannot be deterred. >>>> >>>> To the contrary, what little empirical evidence we have seems to indicate that in fact the imposition of the death penalty has a brutalizing effect on the target population by increasing the number of homicides that occur after an execution. In other words, more lives can be saved than lost by abolishing the death penalty. Since the argument for deterrence as a theory of punishment is based upon such utilitarian calculations going all the way back to Jeremy Bentham, considerations of utility demand the abolition of the death penalty. >>>> >>>> In any event, the United States Constitution requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt before someone can be found guilty of a crime. A defendant is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of twelve men and women sitting on a jury. Consistent with that overriding constitutional philosophy, those who support the death penalty must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the imposition of the death penalty (1) deters homicides; and (2) saves more lives than it takes. Clearly, the proponents of the death penalty have failed to discharge this constitutional burden of proof. Yet, we in the United States continue to execute people when we know that there exists more than a reasonable doubt that the death penalty does not deter homicides, but indeed encourages homicides. >>>> >>>> Moreover, we also know that many innocent people in the history of this country have been sentenced to death and that many innocent people have been executed. It is beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty in the United States kills innocent people. Therefore, consistent with the overriding constitutional philosophy of proof beyond a reasonable doubt in substantive criminal law, we must abolish the death penalty. >>>> >>>> Furthermore, it is beyond a reasonable doubt that historically in this country the death penalty has been disproportionately imposed upon People of Color and the Poor. This violates the fundamental guarantee found in the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which provides that everyone in this country is entitled to the Equal Protection of the Laws. The death penalty has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor, and this is due to the intrinsic nature of American society. Namely, whether we like it or not, American society is inherently racist and capitalist. For this reason, the death penalty in America has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor and will continue to do so as long as we remain a racist and capitalist society. >>>> >>>> Due to the fact that America has always been a heterogeneous society consisting of men and women drawn from different races whose ancestors came from other countries around the world, or else were brought here against their will (e.g., African Americans), or else were already here when the rest of our ancestors arrived (e.g., Native Americans), I doubt very seriously that we will ever be able to eliminate all vestiges of racism and racial discrimination from America. And I make that statement with a great deal of regret. Nevertheless, I believe it to be true. America's inherent racism has always been manifest in the disproportionate imposition of the death penalty on African Americans, Latinos, and other People of Color in this country. >>>> >>>> Similarly, America is a capitalist society run on the principle: "You get what you pay for." This is true for education, housing, health care, justice, and just about anything else. There is a direct correlation between the amount of money you can pay and the quantity and quality of justice you can obtain in America. I make that statement based upon my experience of having practiced law for over seventeen years, including stints with three large corporate law firms. >>>> >>>> Recent confirmation of this proposition can be found in the double-murder trial of O.J. Simpson. He got a lot of "justice" because he had a lot of money. Indeed, the prosecutors purposely chose not to seek the death penalty in the first place for what was obviously a capital offense under California law. >>>> >>>> By comparison, those who are charged with first-degree murder are typically left to the vicissitudes of the public defender's office -- where they exist. This is not to call into question the competence and integrity of public defenders. But I am sure most public defenders would agree that they are overworked, understaffed and underpaid. How can we in the United States allow the most critical issue our courts are ever called upon to decide--life or death--to be determined on the basis of anything but the best legal representation that can be provided. Yet, the contrary happens every day here in the United States of America. >>>> >>>> I always found it particularly distressing when my students would then argue that it is cheaper to execute a convicted murderer than to keep him or her alive. Under the pernicious influence of the so-called Law and Economics Movement originating out of the now reactionary University of Chicago (where I attended college), arguments based upon principles of economic efficiency, utility, profit and outright greed have come to supplant considerations of justice, fairness, and compassion at an increasingly larger number of law schools in America today. Nevertheless, the statistics prove this economic argument in favor of the death penalty to be false as well. It is far more expensive to execute someone than to keep that individual alive for the rest of his or her natural life in prison. >>>> >>>> Indeed, the leading econometric study of the death penalty -- Ehrlich, The Deterrent Effect of Capital Punishment: A Question of Life and Death, 65 Amer. Econ. Rev. 397 (1975) -- found in part that the murder rate is negatively related to the labor force participation rate and positively to the unemployment rate. Hence, the rate of murder and other related crimes can be reduced through increased employment and earnings opportunities. Thus, I argued to my first year law students, perhaps the most effective way to prevent homicides was to make it a serious federal crime for government decision-makers to pursue economic policies that they know will increase the rate of unemployment in the United States. >>>> >>>> Furthermore, as a teacher I always objected to the immoral premises that underlie the economic argument in favor of the death penalty. The State has absolutely no right to take a human life because it is allegedly cheaper to kill that person than to keep him or her alive for any reason. Otherwise, the State would have a license to kill anyone that it does not deem to be economically productive or efficient: premature infants in neonatology wards; paraplegics and quadriplegics; the mentally retarded; the physically handicapped; the psychologically disturbed; the welfare mother; the senior citizen with Alzheimer's disease, etc. There would be no end in sight to the human carnage if America were to make decisions on whether the State should put people to death for economic reasons. If this self-styled principle of economic efficiency is allowed to prevail in America, then our society will become not much different from Nazi Germany where the terror of execution was used to produce a master race. In other words, we would be using the principle of economic efficiency to exterminate all those whom a certain group of us believe do not live up to some minimal criteria for existence. >>>> >>>> The Second World War and the Nazi Holocaust against the Jewish People, the Slavic Peoples--such as Russians and Poles--as well as Gypsies was the ultimate working-out of this philosophy: the so-called Final Solution. Yet, we here in the United States use the death penalty as our "Final Solution" to the most serious problems that confront our society today--poverty, racism, unemployment, drug abuse, etc. For example, a few years ago our so-called drug czar, William Bennett, publicly called for the beheading of drug dealers. >>>> >>>> Our government decision-makers wield the death penalty as the ultimate form of state terrorism in order to keep the enormous injustices, inequalities, hypocrisies, and deficiencies of American society within what they believe to be tolerable limits. This calls to mind the critique of the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution put forth by Edmund Burke, the great conservative: At the end of every vista, one sees nothing but the gallows. That is an incredibly accurate description of America today. Yet, somewhat paradoxically, Burke has always been the great philosophical hero to the conservative movement in the United States. >>>> >>>> The final argument in support of the death penalty goes back, supposedly, to the Bible. In other words, the Law of the Talon--an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, stripe for stripe, etc. Of course, you cannot find that argument in the New Testament, but to the contrary a philosophy that is premised on a diametrically opposed operational rationale: turn the other cheek, give the other cloak, walk the extra mile, etc. This is not to argue that the New Testament is better or worse than the Old Testament on this or any other matter. But rather, that those who cite the Bible in support of the death penalty conveniently overlook the philosophy of love, forgiveness and compassion preached by Jesus Christ and his immediate disciples. >>>> >>>> Thus, when publicly asked his opinion about the pending execution of an adulterous woman by stoning as required by law, Christ retorted: "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." Certainly "Christian" proponents of the death penalty in America should ponder the meaning of this injunction. After all, Christ himself was the ultimate victim of capital punishment. >>>> >>>> Nevertheless, the Law of the Talon did not originate with the Bible, but rather with Hammurabi, the first great king of Babylon, around 1700 B.C. At that time, Hammurabi promulgated what has come to be known as Hammurabi's Code, the essence of which was the Law of the Talon. Yet, originally, Hammurabi intended this principle to be progressive, not regressive. The Law of the Talon was designed to establish some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime. >>>> >>>> Before Hammurabi's Code, in the customary practice of ancient Babylon, there was no necessary requirement of proportionality between punishment and crime. Rather, a system of blood feud based upon revenge prevailed whereby the victim's family would wreak vengeance against the perpetrator or his family that oftentimes was completely disproportionate to the original offense. Hammurabi wanted to take the enforcement of criminal law out of the hands of private individuals and put it into the hands of the state to prevent the private anarchy of the blood feud. In addition, he also wanted to institute some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime, and thus to impose some humanitarian limitations upon the enforcement of criminal law penalties. >>>> >>>> Hammurabi's Code was promulgated around the year 1700 B.C. by the ruler of one of the Middle Eastern world's first great military empires. And yet today, almost four millennia later, we here in the American Empire still have people citing Hammurabi's Law of the Talon to justify the death penalty despite the fact that we are supposed to be a popular democracy with a commitment to the Rule of Law. Indeed, here in the United States of America, we instituted a Constitution for all the people over 200 years ago. The Eighth Amendment to that Constitution prohibits the infliction of "cruel and unusual punishments." It seems to me that our degree of civilization should have improved considerably beyond the days of Hammurabi to the point that the death penalty has indeed become a cruel and unusual punishment. This conclusion becomes crystal clear when America's practice of capital punishment is contrasted with the abolitionist policies of so many Western liberal democracies that we like to compare ourselves to. It is about time for the United States of America to relegate this barbarous remnant of ancient times to the dustbin of history. >>>> >>>> At the end of spending six or seven class days patiently going through all the arguments for and against the death penalty with my 70 or so first year law students, almost every year it was the case that I was able to turn a tentative majority in favor of the death penalty into a solid abolitionist majority. Both at the time and in retrospect, this reversal of opinion has always given me great hope that some day the majority of the American people who supposedly support the death penalty can be educated into becoming an abolitionist majority. >>>> >>>> In this regard, the U.S. news media all tell us that a solid majority of the American people support the death penalty. I submit this is because the news media have constantly told the American people that a majority of them support the death penalty and so a majority of them do indeed support the death penalty. The U.S. news media's coverage and presentation of the death penalty in America constitutes the classic example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. >>>> >>>> As someone who reads five or six newspapers almost every day except when I am on the road, it seems to me that the news media have purposefully failed to present the abolitionist side of the death penalty debate to the American people. In the United States the editorial party line of most media seems to be that since a majority of the American people support the death penalty, there is not much point in devoting too much time, too much energy, or too much coverage to the abolitionist side of the debate. This self-induced tautology is critical because the United States Supreme Court has indicated that so long as a majority of the American people continue to support the death penalty, then it cannot be said that the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment that is prohibited by the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution. >>>> >>>> Nevertheless, the U.S. news media is itself protected by the First Amendment to that same Constitution. Therefore, because of the pivotal role played by the news media in shaping public opinion, I would submit that the news media have a constitutional responsibility to cover the abolitionist side of the debate over the death penalty on a level of complete equality with those who favor the imposition of the death penalty -- which they have so far failed to discharge. On this crucial question, whether rightly or wrongly, the Supreme Court has deferred to the judgment of U.S. public opinion. Therefore, it is up to those who shape U.S. public opinion to make sure that both sides of the death penalty debate are adequately, fairly, and equally presented. Thus, it must be the task of teachers not only to educate their students and the American people to the abolitionist point of view, but also to explain to the U.S. news media why they have a constitutional obligation to provide equal, adequate, and fair coverage of the abolitionist case against the death penalty. >>>> >>>> Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. >>>> >>>> Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. >>>> >>>> Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. >>>> >>>> This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. >>>> >>>> Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> File:5.2\deathpen.#2 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From fboyle at illinois.edu Sat Jun 9 18:14:31 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 18:14:31 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Friends: I do hope that we are not going to be distracted by our Resident Agent Provocateur. Rauner is trying to reinstitute the Death Penalty here in the State of Illinois. What if anything are we going to do about it? fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 1:08 PM To: Boyle, Francis A Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty And you’re perfectly aware that that’s a vacuous argument that you’re stuck with. > On Jun 9, 2018, at 12:52 PM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: > > "human rights" > Yet once again you are deliberately serving as an Agent Provocateur on this list in order to distract everyone from dealing with the issue at hand that was raised by Karen and seconded by me: Governor Rauner's malicious attempt to reinstitute the death penalty in order to get himself re-elected.But I will answer you once more but not again: In accordance with the Anglo-American Common Law of Crimes that I was hired to teach here and taught for several years, there is no "human being" who can be homicided unless and until the fetus is actually born and is born alive. Go take your arguments to Harvard Divinity School! Right now we are dealing with Rauner's attempt to reinstate the death penalty in Illinois. > Francis A. Boyle > Professor of Law > > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 12:41 PM > To: Boyle, Francis A > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > It’s not a question of ‘divinity’ but of human rights. > > >> On Jun 9, 2018, at 12:06 PM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> I am a law professor and a lawyer who teaches law to law students in a law school in order to become lawyers. You can direct your comments to a Professor of Divinity at Harvard Divinity School who teaches religion to his or her students in order to become ministers/priests/rabbis/imams, etc. fab. >> >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> Law Building >> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >> Champaign IL 61820 USA >> 217-333-7954 (phone) >> 217-244-1478 (fax) >> (personal comments only) >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 12:00 PM >> To: Boyle, Francis A >> Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >> >> "Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances ... 'Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.' John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us.” >> >> My grandddaugher in utero has the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the unborn of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. —CGE >> >> >>> On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:46 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> In accordance with Anglo-American Common law, there is no "human being" who can be murdered unless and until a fetus is born and born alive. Fab. >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Law Building >>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>> Champaign IL 61820 USA >>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>> (personal comments only) >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 11:24 AM >>> To: Boyle, Francis A >>> Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) >>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>> Importance: High >>> >>> A compelling argument, Francis. Does it also apply to abortion? >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> From: Boyle, Francis [mailto:FBOYLE at LAW.UIUC.EDU] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 10:02 AM >>>> To: 'nppryan at compar.com' >>>> Subject: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>>> Importance: High >>>> >>>> Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. >>>> >>>> Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. >>>> >>>> Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. >>>> >>>> This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. >>>> >>>> Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> File:5.2\deathpen.#2 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Francis A. Boyle >>>> Law Building >>>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>>> 217-333-7954 (voice) >>>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>>> fboyle at law.uiuc.edu >>>> (personal comments only) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Boyle, Francis >>>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:15 AM >>>> To: 'Multiple recipients of list' >>>> Subject: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>>> >>>> >>>> TEACHING AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY: >>>> THE EXECUTION OF JOHN WAYNE GACY >>>> >>>> by >>>> >>>> Francis A. Boyle >>>> >>>> Professor of Law >>>> >>>> During almost two decades of teaching, one of the many subjects I taught for several years was substantive criminal law to about 70 first year law students. Each semester I would set aside in my course about two weeks of class sessions to deal with the death penalty. I believe that at the outset of my course a majority of the students probably supported the death penalty for one reason or another. Therefore, the task I always set for myself over those six or so class sessions was to turn that majority into a minority and thus to produce an abolitionist majority. >>>> >>>> During the course of this process, there were a number of arguments put forth by my obviously intelligent students to justify the death penalty. First came their argument based on deterrence. As we know, however, there is no unequivocal empirical evidence to prove that the death penalty deters anything. Indeed, over 50% of all homicides committed in the United States of America are what we law professors call "crimes of passion," which, by definition, cannot be deterred in the first place. In these cases, people kill in the heat of emotional and physical passion when the mental calculations presumed by the theory of deterrence are irrelevant. Likewise, a large percentage of homicides occur under the influence of alcohol when mental reasoning processes are substantially impaired and thus cannot be deterred. >>>> >>>> To the contrary, what little empirical evidence we have seems to indicate that in fact the imposition of the death penalty has a brutalizing effect on the target population by increasing the number of homicides that occur after an execution. In other words, more lives can be saved than lost by abolishing the death penalty. Since the argument for deterrence as a theory of punishment is based upon such utilitarian calculations going all the way back to Jeremy Bentham, considerations of utility demand the abolition of the death penalty. >>>> >>>> In any event, the United States Constitution requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt before someone can be found guilty of a crime. A defendant is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of twelve men and women sitting on a jury. Consistent with that overriding constitutional philosophy, those who support the death penalty must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the imposition of the death penalty (1) deters homicides; and (2) saves more lives than it takes. Clearly, the proponents of the death penalty have failed to discharge this constitutional burden of proof. Yet, we in the United States continue to execute people when we know that there exists more than a reasonable doubt that the death penalty does not deter homicides, but indeed encourages homicides. >>>> >>>> Moreover, we also know that many innocent people in the history of this country have been sentenced to death and that many innocent people have been executed. It is beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty in the United States kills innocent people. Therefore, consistent with the overriding constitutional philosophy of proof beyond a reasonable doubt in substantive criminal law, we must abolish the death penalty. >>>> >>>> Furthermore, it is beyond a reasonable doubt that historically in this country the death penalty has been disproportionately imposed upon People of Color and the Poor. This violates the fundamental guarantee found in the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which provides that everyone in this country is entitled to the Equal Protection of the Laws. The death penalty has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor, and this is due to the intrinsic nature of American society. Namely, whether we like it or not, American society is inherently racist and capitalist. For this reason, the death penalty in America has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor and will continue to do so as long as we remain a racist and capitalist society. >>>> >>>> Due to the fact that America has always been a heterogeneous society consisting of men and women drawn from different races whose ancestors came from other countries around the world, or else were brought here against their will (e.g., African Americans), or else were already here when the rest of our ancestors arrived (e.g., Native Americans), I doubt very seriously that we will ever be able to eliminate all vestiges of racism and racial discrimination from America. And I make that statement with a great deal of regret. Nevertheless, I believe it to be true. America's inherent racism has always been manifest in the disproportionate imposition of the death penalty on African Americans, Latinos, and other People of Color in this country. >>>> >>>> Similarly, America is a capitalist society run on the principle: "You get what you pay for." This is true for education, housing, health care, justice, and just about anything else. There is a direct correlation between the amount of money you can pay and the quantity and quality of justice you can obtain in America. I make that statement based upon my experience of having practiced law for over seventeen years, including stints with three large corporate law firms. >>>> >>>> Recent confirmation of this proposition can be found in the double-murder trial of O.J. Simpson. He got a lot of "justice" because he had a lot of money. Indeed, the prosecutors purposely chose not to seek the death penalty in the first place for what was obviously a capital offense under California law. >>>> >>>> By comparison, those who are charged with first-degree murder are typically left to the vicissitudes of the public defender's office -- where they exist. This is not to call into question the competence and integrity of public defenders. But I am sure most public defenders would agree that they are overworked, understaffed and underpaid. How can we in the United States allow the most critical issue our courts are ever called upon to decide--life or death--to be determined on the basis of anything but the best legal representation that can be provided. Yet, the contrary happens every day here in the United States of America. >>>> >>>> I always found it particularly distressing when my students would then argue that it is cheaper to execute a convicted murderer than to keep him or her alive. Under the pernicious influence of the so-called Law and Economics Movement originating out of the now reactionary University of Chicago (where I attended college), arguments based upon principles of economic efficiency, utility, profit and outright greed have come to supplant considerations of justice, fairness, and compassion at an increasingly larger number of law schools in America today. Nevertheless, the statistics prove this economic argument in favor of the death penalty to be false as well. It is far more expensive to execute someone than to keep that individual alive for the rest of his or her natural life in prison. >>>> >>>> Indeed, the leading econometric study of the death penalty -- Ehrlich, The Deterrent Effect of Capital Punishment: A Question of Life and Death, 65 Amer. Econ. Rev. 397 (1975) -- found in part that the murder rate is negatively related to the labor force participation rate and positively to the unemployment rate. Hence, the rate of murder and other related crimes can be reduced through increased employment and earnings opportunities. Thus, I argued to my first year law students, perhaps the most effective way to prevent homicides was to make it a serious federal crime for government decision-makers to pursue economic policies that they know will increase the rate of unemployment in the United States. >>>> >>>> Furthermore, as a teacher I always objected to the immoral premises that underlie the economic argument in favor of the death penalty. The State has absolutely no right to take a human life because it is allegedly cheaper to kill that person than to keep him or her alive for any reason. Otherwise, the State would have a license to kill anyone that it does not deem to be economically productive or efficient: premature infants in neonatology wards; paraplegics and quadriplegics; the mentally retarded; the physically handicapped; the psychologically disturbed; the welfare mother; the senior citizen with Alzheimer's disease, etc. There would be no end in sight to the human carnage if America were to make decisions on whether the State should put people to death for economic reasons. If this self-styled principle of economic efficiency is allowed to prevail in America, then our society will become not much different from Nazi Germany where the terror of execution was used to produce a master race. In other words, we would be using the principle of economic efficiency to exterminate all those whom a certain group of us believe do not live up to some minimal criteria for existence. >>>> >>>> The Second World War and the Nazi Holocaust against the Jewish People, the Slavic Peoples--such as Russians and Poles--as well as Gypsies was the ultimate working-out of this philosophy: the so-called Final Solution. Yet, we here in the United States use the death penalty as our "Final Solution" to the most serious problems that confront our society today--poverty, racism, unemployment, drug abuse, etc. For example, a few years ago our so-called drug czar, William Bennett, publicly called for the beheading of drug dealers. >>>> >>>> Our government decision-makers wield the death penalty as the ultimate form of state terrorism in order to keep the enormous injustices, inequalities, hypocrisies, and deficiencies of American society within what they believe to be tolerable limits. This calls to mind the critique of the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution put forth by Edmund Burke, the great conservative: At the end of every vista, one sees nothing but the gallows. That is an incredibly accurate description of America today. Yet, somewhat paradoxically, Burke has always been the great philosophical hero to the conservative movement in the United States. >>>> >>>> The final argument in support of the death penalty goes back, supposedly, to the Bible. In other words, the Law of the Talon--an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, stripe for stripe, etc. Of course, you cannot find that argument in the New Testament, but to the contrary a philosophy that is premised on a diametrically opposed operational rationale: turn the other cheek, give the other cloak, walk the extra mile, etc. This is not to argue that the New Testament is better or worse than the Old Testament on this or any other matter. But rather, that those who cite the Bible in support of the death penalty conveniently overlook the philosophy of love, forgiveness and compassion preached by Jesus Christ and his immediate disciples. >>>> >>>> Thus, when publicly asked his opinion about the pending execution of an adulterous woman by stoning as required by law, Christ retorted: "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." Certainly "Christian" proponents of the death penalty in America should ponder the meaning of this injunction. After all, Christ himself was the ultimate victim of capital punishment. >>>> >>>> Nevertheless, the Law of the Talon did not originate with the Bible, but rather with Hammurabi, the first great king of Babylon, around 1700 B.C. At that time, Hammurabi promulgated what has come to be known as Hammurabi's Code, the essence of which was the Law of the Talon. Yet, originally, Hammurabi intended this principle to be progressive, not regressive. The Law of the Talon was designed to establish some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime. >>>> >>>> Before Hammurabi's Code, in the customary practice of ancient Babylon, there was no necessary requirement of proportionality between punishment and crime. Rather, a system of blood feud based upon revenge prevailed whereby the victim's family would wreak vengeance against the perpetrator or his family that oftentimes was completely disproportionate to the original offense. Hammurabi wanted to take the enforcement of criminal law out of the hands of private individuals and put it into the hands of the state to prevent the private anarchy of the blood feud. In addition, he also wanted to institute some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime, and thus to impose some humanitarian limitations upon the enforcement of criminal law penalties. >>>> >>>> Hammurabi's Code was promulgated around the year 1700 B.C. by the ruler of one of the Middle Eastern world's first great military empires. And yet today, almost four millennia later, we here in the American Empire still have people citing Hammurabi's Law of the Talon to justify the death penalty despite the fact that we are supposed to be a popular democracy with a commitment to the Rule of Law. Indeed, here in the United States of America, we instituted a Constitution for all the people over 200 years ago. The Eighth Amendment to that Constitution prohibits the infliction of "cruel and unusual punishments." It seems to me that our degree of civilization should have improved considerably beyond the days of Hammurabi to the point that the death penalty has indeed become a cruel and unusual punishment. This conclusion becomes crystal clear when America's practice of capital punishment is contrasted with the abolitionist policies of so many Western liberal democracies that we like to compare ourselves to. It is about time for the United States of America to relegate this barbarous remnant of ancient times to the dustbin of history. >>>> >>>> At the end of spending six or seven class days patiently going through all the arguments for and against the death penalty with my 70 or so first year law students, almost every year it was the case that I was able to turn a tentative majority in favor of the death penalty into a solid abolitionist majority. Both at the time and in retrospect, this reversal of opinion has always given me great hope that some day the majority of the American people who supposedly support the death penalty can be educated into becoming an abolitionist majority. >>>> >>>> In this regard, the U.S. news media all tell us that a solid majority of the American people support the death penalty. I submit this is because the news media have constantly told the American people that a majority of them support the death penalty and so a majority of them do indeed support the death penalty. The U.S. news media's coverage and presentation of the death penalty in America constitutes the classic example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. >>>> >>>> As someone who reads five or six newspapers almost every day except when I am on the road, it seems to me that the news media have purposefully failed to present the abolitionist side of the death penalty debate to the American people. In the United States the editorial party line of most media seems to be that since a majority of the American people support the death penalty, there is not much point in devoting too much time, too much energy, or too much coverage to the abolitionist side of the debate. This self-induced tautology is critical because the United States Supreme Court has indicated that so long as a majority of the American people continue to support the death penalty, then it cannot be said that the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment that is prohibited by the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution. >>>> >>>> Nevertheless, the U.S. news media is itself protected by the First Amendment to that same Constitution. Therefore, because of the pivotal role played by the news media in shaping public opinion, I would submit that the news media have a constitutional responsibility to cover the abolitionist side of the debate over the death penalty on a level of complete equality with those who favor the imposition of the death penalty -- which they have so far failed to discharge. On this crucial question, whether rightly or wrongly, the Supreme Court has deferred to the judgment of U.S. public opinion. Therefore, it is up to those who shape U.S. public opinion to make sure that both sides of the death penalty debate are adequately, fairly, and equally presented. Thus, it must be the task of teachers not only to educate their students and the American people to the abolitionist point of view, but also to explain to the U.S. news media why they have a constitutional obligation to provide equal, adequate, and fair coverage of the abolitionist case against the death penalty. >>>> >>>> Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. >>>> >>>> Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. >>>> >>>> Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. >>>> >>>> This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. >>>> >>>> Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> File:5.2\deathpen.#2 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Jun 9 18:27:35 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 13:27:35 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20A02F9D-14BC-438A-83AF-7E59025ECB4E@gmail.com> I’ll be interested in hearing about your campaign (which I support). Perhaps it can be adapted to other cases of wrongful death. > On Jun 9, 2018, at 1:14 PM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Dear Friends: I do hope that we are not going to be distracted by our Resident Agent Provocateur. Rauner is trying to reinstitute the Death Penalty here in the State of Illinois. What if anything are we going to do about it? fab. > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 1:08 PM > To: Boyle, Francis A > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > And you’re perfectly aware that that’s a vacuous argument that you’re stuck with. > > >> On Jun 9, 2018, at 12:52 PM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> "human rights" >> Yet once again you are deliberately serving as an Agent Provocateur on this list in order to distract everyone from dealing with the issue at hand that was raised by Karen and seconded by me: Governor Rauner's malicious attempt to reinstitute the death penalty in order to get himself re-elected.But I will answer you once more but not again: In accordance with the Anglo-American Common Law of Crimes that I was hired to teach here and taught for several years, there is no "human being" who can be homicided unless and until the fetus is actually born and is born alive. Go take your arguments to Harvard Divinity School! Right now we are dealing with Rauner's attempt to reinstate the death penalty in Illinois. >> Francis A. Boyle >> Professor of Law >> >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> Law Building >> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >> Champaign IL 61820 USA >> 217-333-7954 (phone) >> 217-244-1478 (fax) >> (personal comments only) >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 12:41 PM >> To: Boyle, Francis A >> Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >> >> It’s not a question of ‘divinity’ but of human rights. >> >> >>> On Jun 9, 2018, at 12:06 PM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> I am a law professor and a lawyer who teaches law to law students in a law school in order to become lawyers. You can direct your comments to a Professor of Divinity at Harvard Divinity School who teaches religion to his or her students in order to become ministers/priests/rabbis/imams, etc. fab. >>> >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Law Building >>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>> Champaign IL 61820 USA >>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>> (personal comments only) >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 12:00 PM >>> To: Boyle, Francis A >>> Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) >>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>> >>> "Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances ... 'Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.' John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us.” >>> >>> My grandddaugher in utero has the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the unborn of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. —CGE >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:46 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> In accordance with Anglo-American Common law, there is no "human being" who can be murdered unless and until a fetus is born and born alive. Fab. >>>> >>>> Francis A. Boyle >>>> Law Building >>>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>>> Champaign IL 61820 USA >>>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>>> (personal comments only) >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 11:24 AM >>>> To: Boyle, Francis A >>>> Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) >>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>>> Importance: High >>>> >>>> A compelling argument, Francis. Does it also apply to abortion? >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>> >>>>> From: Boyle, Francis [mailto:FBOYLE at LAW.UIUC.EDU] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 10:02 AM >>>>> To: 'nppryan at compar.com' >>>>> Subject: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>>>> Importance: High >>>>> >>>>> Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. >>>>> >>>>> Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. >>>>> >>>>> Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. >>>>> >>>>> This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. >>>>> >>>>> Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> File:5.2\deathpen.#2 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Francis A. Boyle >>>>> Law Building >>>>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>>>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>>>> 217-333-7954 (voice) >>>>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>>>> fboyle at law.uiuc.edu >>>>> (personal comments only) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Boyle, Francis >>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:15 AM >>>>> To: 'Multiple recipients of list' >>>>> Subject: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> TEACHING AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY: >>>>> THE EXECUTION OF JOHN WAYNE GACY >>>>> >>>>> by >>>>> >>>>> Francis A. Boyle >>>>> >>>>> Professor of Law >>>>> >>>>> During almost two decades of teaching, one of the many subjects I taught for several years was substantive criminal law to about 70 first year law students. Each semester I would set aside in my course about two weeks of class sessions to deal with the death penalty. I believe that at the outset of my course a majority of the students probably supported the death penalty for one reason or another. Therefore, the task I always set for myself over those six or so class sessions was to turn that majority into a minority and thus to produce an abolitionist majority. >>>>> >>>>> During the course of this process, there were a number of arguments put forth by my obviously intelligent students to justify the death penalty. First came their argument based on deterrence. As we know, however, there is no unequivocal empirical evidence to prove that the death penalty deters anything. Indeed, over 50% of all homicides committed in the United States of America are what we law professors call "crimes of passion," which, by definition, cannot be deterred in the first place. In these cases, people kill in the heat of emotional and physical passion when the mental calculations presumed by the theory of deterrence are irrelevant. Likewise, a large percentage of homicides occur under the influence of alcohol when mental reasoning processes are substantially impaired and thus cannot be deterred. >>>>> >>>>> To the contrary, what little empirical evidence we have seems to indicate that in fact the imposition of the death penalty has a brutalizing effect on the target population by increasing the number of homicides that occur after an execution. In other words, more lives can be saved than lost by abolishing the death penalty. Since the argument for deterrence as a theory of punishment is based upon such utilitarian calculations going all the way back to Jeremy Bentham, considerations of utility demand the abolition of the death penalty. >>>>> >>>>> In any event, the United States Constitution requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt before someone can be found guilty of a crime. A defendant is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of twelve men and women sitting on a jury. Consistent with that overriding constitutional philosophy, those who support the death penalty must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the imposition of the death penalty (1) deters homicides; and (2) saves more lives than it takes. Clearly, the proponents of the death penalty have failed to discharge this constitutional burden of proof. Yet, we in the United States continue to execute people when we know that there exists more than a reasonable doubt that the death penalty does not deter homicides, but indeed encourages homicides. >>>>> >>>>> Moreover, we also know that many innocent people in the history of this country have been sentenced to death and that many innocent people have been executed. It is beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty in the United States kills innocent people. Therefore, consistent with the overriding constitutional philosophy of proof beyond a reasonable doubt in substantive criminal law, we must abolish the death penalty. >>>>> >>>>> Furthermore, it is beyond a reasonable doubt that historically in this country the death penalty has been disproportionately imposed upon People of Color and the Poor. This violates the fundamental guarantee found in the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which provides that everyone in this country is entitled to the Equal Protection of the Laws. The death penalty has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor, and this is due to the intrinsic nature of American society. Namely, whether we like it or not, American society is inherently racist and capitalist. For this reason, the death penalty in America has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor and will continue to do so as long as we remain a racist and capitalist society. >>>>> >>>>> Due to the fact that America has always been a heterogeneous society consisting of men and women drawn from different races whose ancestors came from other countries around the world, or else were brought here against their will (e.g., African Americans), or else were already here when the rest of our ancestors arrived (e.g., Native Americans), I doubt very seriously that we will ever be able to eliminate all vestiges of racism and racial discrimination from America. And I make that statement with a great deal of regret. Nevertheless, I believe it to be true. America's inherent racism has always been manifest in the disproportionate imposition of the death penalty on African Americans, Latinos, and other People of Color in this country. >>>>> >>>>> Similarly, America is a capitalist society run on the principle: "You get what you pay for." This is true for education, housing, health care, justice, and just about anything else. There is a direct correlation between the amount of money you can pay and the quantity and quality of justice you can obtain in America. I make that statement based upon my experience of having practiced law for over seventeen years, including stints with three large corporate law firms. >>>>> >>>>> Recent confirmation of this proposition can be found in the double-murder trial of O.J. Simpson. He got a lot of "justice" because he had a lot of money. Indeed, the prosecutors purposely chose not to seek the death penalty in the first place for what was obviously a capital offense under California law. >>>>> >>>>> By comparison, those who are charged with first-degree murder are typically left to the vicissitudes of the public defender's office -- where they exist. This is not to call into question the competence and integrity of public defenders. But I am sure most public defenders would agree that they are overworked, understaffed and underpaid. How can we in the United States allow the most critical issue our courts are ever called upon to decide--life or death--to be determined on the basis of anything but the best legal representation that can be provided. Yet, the contrary happens every day here in the United States of America. >>>>> >>>>> I always found it particularly distressing when my students would then argue that it is cheaper to execute a convicted murderer than to keep him or her alive. Under the pernicious influence of the so-called Law and Economics Movement originating out of the now reactionary University of Chicago (where I attended college), arguments based upon principles of economic efficiency, utility, profit and outright greed have come to supplant considerations of justice, fairness, and compassion at an increasingly larger number of law schools in America today. Nevertheless, the statistics prove this economic argument in favor of the death penalty to be false as well. It is far more expensive to execute someone than to keep that individual alive for the rest of his or her natural life in prison. >>>>> >>>>> Indeed, the leading econometric study of the death penalty -- Ehrlich, The Deterrent Effect of Capital Punishment: A Question of Life and Death, 65 Amer. Econ. Rev. 397 (1975) -- found in part that the murder rate is negatively related to the labor force participation rate and positively to the unemployment rate. Hence, the rate of murder and other related crimes can be reduced through increased employment and earnings opportunities. Thus, I argued to my first year law students, perhaps the most effective way to prevent homicides was to make it a serious federal crime for government decision-makers to pursue economic policies that they know will increase the rate of unemployment in the United States. >>>>> >>>>> Furthermore, as a teacher I always objected to the immoral premises that underlie the economic argument in favor of the death penalty. The State has absolutely no right to take a human life because it is allegedly cheaper to kill that person than to keep him or her alive for any reason. Otherwise, the State would have a license to kill anyone that it does not deem to be economically productive or efficient: premature infants in neonatology wards; paraplegics and quadriplegics; the mentally retarded; the physically handicapped; the psychologically disturbed; the welfare mother; the senior citizen with Alzheimer's disease, etc. There would be no end in sight to the human carnage if America were to make decisions on whether the State should put people to death for economic reasons. If this self-styled principle of economic efficiency is allowed to prevail in America, then our society will become not much different from Nazi Germany where the terror of execution was used to produce a master race. In other words, we would be using the principle of economic efficiency to exterminate all those whom a certain group of us believe do not live up to some minimal criteria for existence. >>>>> >>>>> The Second World War and the Nazi Holocaust against the Jewish People, the Slavic Peoples--such as Russians and Poles--as well as Gypsies was the ultimate working-out of this philosophy: the so-called Final Solution. Yet, we here in the United States use the death penalty as our "Final Solution" to the most serious problems that confront our society today--poverty, racism, unemployment, drug abuse, etc. For example, a few years ago our so-called drug czar, William Bennett, publicly called for the beheading of drug dealers. >>>>> >>>>> Our government decision-makers wield the death penalty as the ultimate form of state terrorism in order to keep the enormous injustices, inequalities, hypocrisies, and deficiencies of American society within what they believe to be tolerable limits. This calls to mind the critique of the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution put forth by Edmund Burke, the great conservative: At the end of every vista, one sees nothing but the gallows. That is an incredibly accurate description of America today. Yet, somewhat paradoxically, Burke has always been the great philosophical hero to the conservative movement in the United States. >>>>> >>>>> The final argument in support of the death penalty goes back, supposedly, to the Bible. In other words, the Law of the Talon--an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, stripe for stripe, etc. Of course, you cannot find that argument in the New Testament, but to the contrary a philosophy that is premised on a diametrically opposed operational rationale: turn the other cheek, give the other cloak, walk the extra mile, etc. This is not to argue that the New Testament is better or worse than the Old Testament on this or any other matter. But rather, that those who cite the Bible in support of the death penalty conveniently overlook the philosophy of love, forgiveness and compassion preached by Jesus Christ and his immediate disciples. >>>>> >>>>> Thus, when publicly asked his opinion about the pending execution of an adulterous woman by stoning as required by law, Christ retorted: "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." Certainly "Christian" proponents of the death penalty in America should ponder the meaning of this injunction. After all, Christ himself was the ultimate victim of capital punishment. >>>>> >>>>> Nevertheless, the Law of the Talon did not originate with the Bible, but rather with Hammurabi, the first great king of Babylon, around 1700 B.C. At that time, Hammurabi promulgated what has come to be known as Hammurabi's Code, the essence of which was the Law of the Talon. Yet, originally, Hammurabi intended this principle to be progressive, not regressive. The Law of the Talon was designed to establish some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime. >>>>> >>>>> Before Hammurabi's Code, in the customary practice of ancient Babylon, there was no necessary requirement of proportionality between punishment and crime. Rather, a system of blood feud based upon revenge prevailed whereby the victim's family would wreak vengeance against the perpetrator or his family that oftentimes was completely disproportionate to the original offense. Hammurabi wanted to take the enforcement of criminal law out of the hands of private individuals and put it into the hands of the state to prevent the private anarchy of the blood feud. In addition, he also wanted to institute some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime, and thus to impose some humanitarian limitations upon the enforcement of criminal law penalties. >>>>> >>>>> Hammurabi's Code was promulgated around the year 1700 B.C. by the ruler of one of the Middle Eastern world's first great military empires. And yet today, almost four millennia later, we here in the American Empire still have people citing Hammurabi's Law of the Talon to justify the death penalty despite the fact that we are supposed to be a popular democracy with a commitment to the Rule of Law. Indeed, here in the United States of America, we instituted a Constitution for all the people over 200 years ago. The Eighth Amendment to that Constitution prohibits the infliction of "cruel and unusual punishments." It seems to me that our degree of civilization should have improved considerably beyond the days of Hammurabi to the point that the death penalty has indeed become a cruel and unusual punishment. This conclusion becomes crystal clear when America's practice of capital punishment is contrasted with the abolitionist policies of so many Western liberal democracies that we like to compare ourselves to. It is about time for the United States of America to relegate this barbarous remnant of ancient times to the dustbin of history. >>>>> >>>>> At the end of spending six or seven class days patiently going through all the arguments for and against the death penalty with my 70 or so first year law students, almost every year it was the case that I was able to turn a tentative majority in favor of the death penalty into a solid abolitionist majority. Both at the time and in retrospect, this reversal of opinion has always given me great hope that some day the majority of the American people who supposedly support the death penalty can be educated into becoming an abolitionist majority. >>>>> >>>>> In this regard, the U.S. news media all tell us that a solid majority of the American people support the death penalty. I submit this is because the news media have constantly told the American people that a majority of them support the death penalty and so a majority of them do indeed support the death penalty. The U.S. news media's coverage and presentation of the death penalty in America constitutes the classic example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. >>>>> >>>>> As someone who reads five or six newspapers almost every day except when I am on the road, it seems to me that the news media have purposefully failed to present the abolitionist side of the death penalty debate to the American people. In the United States the editorial party line of most media seems to be that since a majority of the American people support the death penalty, there is not much point in devoting too much time, too much energy, or too much coverage to the abolitionist side of the debate. This self-induced tautology is critical because the United States Supreme Court has indicated that so long as a majority of the American people continue to support the death penalty, then it cannot be said that the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment that is prohibited by the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution. >>>>> >>>>> Nevertheless, the U.S. news media is itself protected by the First Amendment to that same Constitution. Therefore, because of the pivotal role played by the news media in shaping public opinion, I would submit that the news media have a constitutional responsibility to cover the abolitionist side of the debate over the death penalty on a level of complete equality with those who favor the imposition of the death penalty -- which they have so far failed to discharge. On this crucial question, whether rightly or wrongly, the Supreme Court has deferred to the judgment of U.S. public opinion. Therefore, it is up to those who shape U.S. public opinion to make sure that both sides of the death penalty debate are adequately, fairly, and equally presented. Thus, it must be the task of teachers not only to educate their students and the American people to the abolitionist point of view, but also to explain to the U.S. news media why they have a constitutional obligation to provide equal, adequate, and fair coverage of the abolitionist case against the death penalty. >>>>> >>>>> Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. >>>>> >>>>> Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. >>>>> >>>>> Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. >>>>> >>>>> This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. >>>>> >>>>> Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> File:5.2\deathpen.#2 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Jun 9 21:40:07 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 16:40:07 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> Message-ID: <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> It’s worthwhile opposing the reinstatement of the death penalty, even for those with inconsistent views on ending human life. —RAP > On Jun 9, 2018, at 1:14 PM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Dear Friends: I do hope that we are not going to be distracted by our Resident Agent Provocateur. Rauner is trying to reinstitute the Death Penalty here in the State of Illinois. What if anything are we going to do about it? fab. > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 1:08 PM > To: Boyle, Francis A > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > And you’re perfectly aware that that’s a vacuous argument that you’re stuck with. > > >> On Jun 9, 2018, at 12:52 PM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> "human rights" >> Yet once again you are deliberately serving as an Agent Provocateur on this list in order to distract everyone from dealing with the issue at hand that was raised by Karen and seconded by me: Governor Rauner's malicious attempt to reinstitute the death penalty in order to get himself re-elected.But I will answer you once more but not again: In accordance with the Anglo-American Common Law of Crimes that I was hired to teach here and taught for several years, there is no "human being" who can be homicided unless and until the fetus is actually born and is born alive. Go take your arguments to Harvard Divinity School! Right now we are dealing with Rauner's attempt to reinstate the death penalty in Illinois. >> Francis A. Boyle >> Professor of Law >> >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> Law Building >> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >> Champaign IL 61820 USA >> 217-333-7954 (phone) >> 217-244-1478 (fax) >> (personal comments only) >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 12:41 PM >> To: Boyle, Francis A >> Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >> >> It’s not a question of ‘divinity’ but of human rights. >> >> >>> On Jun 9, 2018, at 12:06 PM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> I am a law professor and a lawyer who teaches law to law students in a law school in order to become lawyers. You can direct your comments to a Professor of Divinity at Harvard Divinity School who teaches religion to his or her students in order to become ministers/priests/rabbis/imams, etc. fab. >>> >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Law Building >>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>> Champaign IL 61820 USA >>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>> (personal comments only) >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 12:00 PM >>> To: Boyle, Francis A >>> Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) >>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>> >>> "Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances ... 'Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.' John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us.” >>> >>> My grandddaugher in utero has the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the unborn of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. —CGE >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:46 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> In accordance with Anglo-American Common law, there is no "human being" who can be murdered unless and until a fetus is born and born alive. Fab. >>>> >>>> Francis A. Boyle >>>> Law Building >>>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>>> Champaign IL 61820 USA >>>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>>> (personal comments only) >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 11:24 AM >>>> To: Boyle, Francis A >>>> Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) >>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>>> Importance: High >>>> >>>> A compelling argument, Francis. Does it also apply to abortion? >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>> >>>>> From: Boyle, Francis [mailto:FBOYLE at LAW.UIUC.EDU] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 10:02 AM >>>>> To: 'nppryan at compar.com' >>>>> Subject: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>>>> Importance: High >>>>> >>>>> Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. >>>>> >>>>> Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. >>>>> >>>>> Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. >>>>> >>>>> This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. >>>>> >>>>> Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> File:5.2\deathpen.#2 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Francis A. Boyle >>>>> Law Building >>>>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>>>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>>>> 217-333-7954 (voice) >>>>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>>>> fboyle at law.uiuc.edu >>>>> (personal comments only) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Boyle, Francis >>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:15 AM >>>>> To: 'Multiple recipients of list' >>>>> Subject: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> TEACHING AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY: >>>>> THE EXECUTION OF JOHN WAYNE GACY >>>>> >>>>> by >>>>> >>>>> Francis A. Boyle >>>>> >>>>> Professor of Law >>>>> >>>>> During almost two decades of teaching, one of the many subjects I taught for several years was substantive criminal law to about 70 first year law students. Each semester I would set aside in my course about two weeks of class sessions to deal with the death penalty. I believe that at the outset of my course a majority of the students probably supported the death penalty for one reason or another. Therefore, the task I always set for myself over those six or so class sessions was to turn that majority into a minority and thus to produce an abolitionist majority. >>>>> >>>>> During the course of this process, there were a number of arguments put forth by my obviously intelligent students to justify the death penalty. First came their argument based on deterrence. As we know, however, there is no unequivocal empirical evidence to prove that the death penalty deters anything. Indeed, over 50% of all homicides committed in the United States of America are what we law professors call "crimes of passion," which, by definition, cannot be deterred in the first place. In these cases, people kill in the heat of emotional and physical passion when the mental calculations presumed by the theory of deterrence are irrelevant. Likewise, a large percentage of homicides occur under the influence of alcohol when mental reasoning processes are substantially impaired and thus cannot be deterred. >>>>> >>>>> To the contrary, what little empirical evidence we have seems to indicate that in fact the imposition of the death penalty has a brutalizing effect on the target population by increasing the number of homicides that occur after an execution. In other words, more lives can be saved than lost by abolishing the death penalty. Since the argument for deterrence as a theory of punishment is based upon such utilitarian calculations going all the way back to Jeremy Bentham, considerations of utility demand the abolition of the death penalty. >>>>> >>>>> In any event, the United States Constitution requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt before someone can be found guilty of a crime. A defendant is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of twelve men and women sitting on a jury. Consistent with that overriding constitutional philosophy, those who support the death penalty must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the imposition of the death penalty (1) deters homicides; and (2) saves more lives than it takes. Clearly, the proponents of the death penalty have failed to discharge this constitutional burden of proof. Yet, we in the United States continue to execute people when we know that there exists more than a reasonable doubt that the death penalty does not deter homicides, but indeed encourages homicides. >>>>> >>>>> Moreover, we also know that many innocent people in the history of this country have been sentenced to death and that many innocent people have been executed. It is beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty in the United States kills innocent people. Therefore, consistent with the overriding constitutional philosophy of proof beyond a reasonable doubt in substantive criminal law, we must abolish the death penalty. >>>>> >>>>> Furthermore, it is beyond a reasonable doubt that historically in this country the death penalty has been disproportionately imposed upon People of Color and the Poor. This violates the fundamental guarantee found in the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which provides that everyone in this country is entitled to the Equal Protection of the Laws. The death penalty has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor, and this is due to the intrinsic nature of American society. Namely, whether we like it or not, American society is inherently racist and capitalist. For this reason, the death penalty in America has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor and will continue to do so as long as we remain a racist and capitalist society. >>>>> >>>>> Due to the fact that America has always been a heterogeneous society consisting of men and women drawn from different races whose ancestors came from other countries around the world, or else were brought here against their will (e.g., African Americans), or else were already here when the rest of our ancestors arrived (e.g., Native Americans), I doubt very seriously that we will ever be able to eliminate all vestiges of racism and racial discrimination from America. And I make that statement with a great deal of regret. Nevertheless, I believe it to be true. America's inherent racism has always been manifest in the disproportionate imposition of the death penalty on African Americans, Latinos, and other People of Color in this country. >>>>> >>>>> Similarly, America is a capitalist society run on the principle: "You get what you pay for." This is true for education, housing, health care, justice, and just about anything else. There is a direct correlation between the amount of money you can pay and the quantity and quality of justice you can obtain in America. I make that statement based upon my experience of having practiced law for over seventeen years, including stints with three large corporate law firms. >>>>> >>>>> Recent confirmation of this proposition can be found in the double-murder trial of O.J. Simpson. He got a lot of "justice" because he had a lot of money. Indeed, the prosecutors purposely chose not to seek the death penalty in the first place for what was obviously a capital offense under California law. >>>>> >>>>> By comparison, those who are charged with first-degree murder are typically left to the vicissitudes of the public defender's office -- where they exist. This is not to call into question the competence and integrity of public defenders. But I am sure most public defenders would agree that they are overworked, understaffed and underpaid. How can we in the United States allow the most critical issue our courts are ever called upon to decide--life or death--to be determined on the basis of anything but the best legal representation that can be provided. Yet, the contrary happens every day here in the United States of America. >>>>> >>>>> I always found it particularly distressing when my students would then argue that it is cheaper to execute a convicted murderer than to keep him or her alive. Under the pernicious influence of the so-called Law and Economics Movement originating out of the now reactionary University of Chicago (where I attended college), arguments based upon principles of economic efficiency, utility, profit and outright greed have come to supplant considerations of justice, fairness, and compassion at an increasingly larger number of law schools in America today. Nevertheless, the statistics prove this economic argument in favor of the death penalty to be false as well. It is far more expensive to execute someone than to keep that individual alive for the rest of his or her natural life in prison. >>>>> >>>>> Indeed, the leading econometric study of the death penalty -- Ehrlich, The Deterrent Effect of Capital Punishment: A Question of Life and Death, 65 Amer. Econ. Rev. 397 (1975) -- found in part that the murder rate is negatively related to the labor force participation rate and positively to the unemployment rate. Hence, the rate of murder and other related crimes can be reduced through increased employment and earnings opportunities. Thus, I argued to my first year law students, perhaps the most effective way to prevent homicides was to make it a serious federal crime for government decision-makers to pursue economic policies that they know will increase the rate of unemployment in the United States. >>>>> >>>>> Furthermore, as a teacher I always objected to the immoral premises that underlie the economic argument in favor of the death penalty. The State has absolutely no right to take a human life because it is allegedly cheaper to kill that person than to keep him or her alive for any reason. Otherwise, the State would have a license to kill anyone that it does not deem to be economically productive or efficient: premature infants in neonatology wards; paraplegics and quadriplegics; the mentally retarded; the physically handicapped; the psychologically disturbed; the welfare mother; the senior citizen with Alzheimer's disease, etc. There would be no end in sight to the human carnage if America were to make decisions on whether the State should put people to death for economic reasons. If this self-styled principle of economic efficiency is allowed to prevail in America, then our society will become not much different from Nazi Germany where the terror of execution was used to produce a master race. In other words, we would be using the principle of economic efficiency to exterminate all those whom a certain group of us believe do not live up to some minimal criteria for existence. >>>>> >>>>> The Second World War and the Nazi Holocaust against the Jewish People, the Slavic Peoples--such as Russians and Poles--as well as Gypsies was the ultimate working-out of this philosophy: the so-called Final Solution. Yet, we here in the United States use the death penalty as our "Final Solution" to the most serious problems that confront our society today--poverty, racism, unemployment, drug abuse, etc. For example, a few years ago our so-called drug czar, William Bennett, publicly called for the beheading of drug dealers. >>>>> >>>>> Our government decision-makers wield the death penalty as the ultimate form of state terrorism in order to keep the enormous injustices, inequalities, hypocrisies, and deficiencies of American society within what they believe to be tolerable limits. This calls to mind the critique of the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution put forth by Edmund Burke, the great conservative: At the end of every vista, one sees nothing but the gallows. That is an incredibly accurate description of America today. Yet, somewhat paradoxically, Burke has always been the great philosophical hero to the conservative movement in the United States. >>>>> >>>>> The final argument in support of the death penalty goes back, supposedly, to the Bible. In other words, the Law of the Talon--an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, stripe for stripe, etc. Of course, you cannot find that argument in the New Testament, but to the contrary a philosophy that is premised on a diametrically opposed operational rationale: turn the other cheek, give the other cloak, walk the extra mile, etc. This is not to argue that the New Testament is better or worse than the Old Testament on this or any other matter. But rather, that those who cite the Bible in support of the death penalty conveniently overlook the philosophy of love, forgiveness and compassion preached by Jesus Christ and his immediate disciples. >>>>> >>>>> Thus, when publicly asked his opinion about the pending execution of an adulterous woman by stoning as required by law, Christ retorted: "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." Certainly "Christian" proponents of the death penalty in America should ponder the meaning of this injunction. After all, Christ himself was the ultimate victim of capital punishment. >>>>> >>>>> Nevertheless, the Law of the Talon did not originate with the Bible, but rather with Hammurabi, the first great king of Babylon, around 1700 B.C. At that time, Hammurabi promulgated what has come to be known as Hammurabi's Code, the essence of which was the Law of the Talon. Yet, originally, Hammurabi intended this principle to be progressive, not regressive. The Law of the Talon was designed to establish some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime. >>>>> >>>>> Before Hammurabi's Code, in the customary practice of ancient Babylon, there was no necessary requirement of proportionality between punishment and crime. Rather, a system of blood feud based upon revenge prevailed whereby the victim's family would wreak vengeance against the perpetrator or his family that oftentimes was completely disproportionate to the original offense. Hammurabi wanted to take the enforcement of criminal law out of the hands of private individuals and put it into the hands of the state to prevent the private anarchy of the blood feud. In addition, he also wanted to institute some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime, and thus to impose some humanitarian limitations upon the enforcement of criminal law penalties. >>>>> >>>>> Hammurabi's Code was promulgated around the year 1700 B.C. by the ruler of one of the Middle Eastern world's first great military empires. And yet today, almost four millennia later, we here in the American Empire still have people citing Hammurabi's Law of the Talon to justify the death penalty despite the fact that we are supposed to be a popular democracy with a commitment to the Rule of Law. Indeed, here in the United States of America, we instituted a Constitution for all the people over 200 years ago. The Eighth Amendment to that Constitution prohibits the infliction of "cruel and unusual punishments." It seems to me that our degree of civilization should have improved considerably beyond the days of Hammurabi to the point that the death penalty has indeed become a cruel and unusual punishment. This conclusion becomes crystal clear when America's practice of capital punishment is contrasted with the abolitionist policies of so many Western liberal democracies that we like to compare ourselves to. It is about time for the United States of America to relegate this barbarous remnant of ancient times to the dustbin of history. >>>>> >>>>> At the end of spending six or seven class days patiently going through all the arguments for and against the death penalty with my 70 or so first year law students, almost every year it was the case that I was able to turn a tentative majority in favor of the death penalty into a solid abolitionist majority. Both at the time and in retrospect, this reversal of opinion has always given me great hope that some day the majority of the American people who supposedly support the death penalty can be educated into becoming an abolitionist majority. >>>>> >>>>> In this regard, the U.S. news media all tell us that a solid majority of the American people support the death penalty. I submit this is because the news media have constantly told the American people that a majority of them support the death penalty and so a majority of them do indeed support the death penalty. The U.S. news media's coverage and presentation of the death penalty in America constitutes the classic example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. >>>>> >>>>> As someone who reads five or six newspapers almost every day except when I am on the road, it seems to me that the news media have purposefully failed to present the abolitionist side of the death penalty debate to the American people. In the United States the editorial party line of most media seems to be that since a majority of the American people support the death penalty, there is not much point in devoting too much time, too much energy, or too much coverage to the abolitionist side of the debate. This self-induced tautology is critical because the United States Supreme Court has indicated that so long as a majority of the American people continue to support the death penalty, then it cannot be said that the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment that is prohibited by the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution. >>>>> >>>>> Nevertheless, the U.S. news media is itself protected by the First Amendment to that same Constitution. Therefore, because of the pivotal role played by the news media in shaping public opinion, I would submit that the news media have a constitutional responsibility to cover the abolitionist side of the debate over the death penalty on a level of complete equality with those who favor the imposition of the death penalty -- which they have so far failed to discharge. On this crucial question, whether rightly or wrongly, the Supreme Court has deferred to the judgment of U.S. public opinion. Therefore, it is up to those who shape U.S. public opinion to make sure that both sides of the death penalty debate are adequately, fairly, and equally presented. Thus, it must be the task of teachers not only to educate their students and the American people to the abolitionist point of view, but also to explain to the U.S. news media why they have a constitutional obligation to provide equal, adequate, and fair coverage of the abolitionist case against the death penalty. >>>>> >>>>> Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. >>>>> >>>>> Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. >>>>> >>>>> Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. >>>>> >>>>> This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. >>>>> >>>>> Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> File:5.2\deathpen.#2 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Jun 9 22:09:09 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 22:09:09 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Carl, Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born. It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant . > On Jun 9, 2018, at 14:40, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > > It’s worthwhile opposing the reinstatement of the death penalty, even for those with inconsistent views on ending human life. —RAP > > >> On Jun 9, 2018, at 1:14 PM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> Dear Friends: I do hope that we are not going to be distracted by our Resident Agent Provocateur. Rauner is trying to reinstitute the Death Penalty here in the State of Illinois. What if anything are we going to do about it? fab. >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> Law Building >> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >> Champaign IL 61820 USA >> 217-333-7954 (phone) >> 217-244-1478 (fax) >> (personal comments only) >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 1:08 PM >> To: Boyle, Francis A >> Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >> >> And you’re perfectly aware that that’s a vacuous argument that you’re stuck with. >> >> >>> On Jun 9, 2018, at 12:52 PM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> "human rights" >>> Yet once again you are deliberately serving as an Agent Provocateur on this list in order to distract everyone from dealing with the issue at hand that was raised by Karen and seconded by me: Governor Rauner's malicious attempt to reinstitute the death penalty in order to get himself re-elected.But I will answer you once more but not again: In accordance with the Anglo-American Common Law of Crimes that I was hired to teach here and taught for several years, there is no "human being" who can be homicided unless and until the fetus is actually born and is born alive. Go take your arguments to Harvard Divinity School! Right now we are dealing with Rauner's attempt to reinstate the death penalty in Illinois. >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Professor of Law >>> >>> >>> Francis A. Boyle >>> Law Building >>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>> Champaign IL 61820 USA >>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>> (personal comments only) >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 12:41 PM >>> To: Boyle, Francis A >>> Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) >>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>> >>> It’s not a question of ‘divinity’ but of human rights. >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 9, 2018, at 12:06 PM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> I am a law professor and a lawyer who teaches law to law students in a law school in order to become lawyers. You can direct your comments to a Professor of Divinity at Harvard Divinity School who teaches religion to his or her students in order to become ministers/priests/rabbis/imams, etc. fab. >>>> >>>> >>>> Francis A. Boyle >>>> Law Building >>>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>>> Champaign IL 61820 USA >>>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>>> (personal comments only) >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 12:00 PM >>>> To: Boyle, Francis A >>>> Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) >>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>>> >>>> "Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances ... 'Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.' John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us.” >>>> >>>> My grandddaugher in utero has the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the unborn of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. —CGE >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:46 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>> >>>>> In accordance with Anglo-American Common law, there is no "human being" who can be murdered unless and until a fetus is born and born alive. Fab. >>>>> >>>>> Francis A. Boyle >>>>> Law Building >>>>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>>>> Champaign IL 61820 USA >>>>> 217-333-7954 (phone) >>>>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>>>> (personal comments only) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 11:24 AM >>>>> To: Boyle, Francis A >>>>> Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) >>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>>>> Importance: High >>>>> >>>>> A compelling argument, Francis. Does it also apply to abortion? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Boyle, Francis [mailto:FBOYLE at LAW.UIUC.EDU] >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 10:02 AM >>>>>> To: 'nppryan at compar.com' >>>>>> Subject: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>>>>> Importance: High >>>>>> >>>>>> Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. >>>>>> >>>>>> Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. >>>>>> >>>>>> Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. >>>>>> >>>>>> Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> File:5.2\deathpen.#2 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Francis A. Boyle >>>>>> Law Building >>>>>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >>>>>> Champaign, IL 61820 USA >>>>>> 217-333-7954 (voice) >>>>>> 217-244-1478 (fax) >>>>>> fboyle at law.uiuc.edu >>>>>> (personal comments only) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Boyle, Francis >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:15 AM >>>>>> To: 'Multiple recipients of list' >>>>>> Subject: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> TEACHING AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY: >>>>>> THE EXECUTION OF JOHN WAYNE GACY >>>>>> >>>>>> by >>>>>> >>>>>> Francis A. Boyle >>>>>> >>>>>> Professor of Law >>>>>> >>>>>> During almost two decades of teaching, one of the many subjects I taught for several years was substantive criminal law to about 70 first year law students. Each semester I would set aside in my course about two weeks of class sessions to deal with the death penalty. I believe that at the outset of my course a majority of the students probably supported the death penalty for one reason or another. Therefore, the task I always set for myself over those six or so class sessions was to turn that majority into a minority and thus to produce an abolitionist majority. >>>>>> >>>>>> During the course of this process, there were a number of arguments put forth by my obviously intelligent students to justify the death penalty. First came their argument based on deterrence. As we know, however, there is no unequivocal empirical evidence to prove that the death penalty deters anything. Indeed, over 50% of all homicides committed in the United States of America are what we law professors call "crimes of passion," which, by definition, cannot be deterred in the first place. In these cases, people kill in the heat of emotional and physical passion when the mental calculations presumed by the theory of deterrence are irrelevant. Likewise, a large percentage of homicides occur under the influence of alcohol when mental reasoning processes are substantially impaired and thus cannot be deterred. >>>>>> >>>>>> To the contrary, what little empirical evidence we have seems to indicate that in fact the imposition of the death penalty has a brutalizing effect on the target population by increasing the number of homicides that occur after an execution. In other words, more lives can be saved than lost by abolishing the death penalty. Since the argument for deterrence as a theory of punishment is based upon such utilitarian calculations going all the way back to Jeremy Bentham, considerations of utility demand the abolition of the death penalty. >>>>>> >>>>>> In any event, the United States Constitution requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt before someone can be found guilty of a crime. A defendant is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of twelve men and women sitting on a jury. Consistent with that overriding constitutional philosophy, those who support the death penalty must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the imposition of the death penalty (1) deters homicides; and (2) saves more lives than it takes. Clearly, the proponents of the death penalty have failed to discharge this constitutional burden of proof. Yet, we in the United States continue to execute people when we know that there exists more than a reasonable doubt that the death penalty does not deter homicides, but indeed encourages homicides. >>>>>> >>>>>> Moreover, we also know that many innocent people in the history of this country have been sentenced to death and that many innocent people have been executed. It is beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty in the United States kills innocent people. Therefore, consistent with the overriding constitutional philosophy of proof beyond a reasonable doubt in substantive criminal law, we must abolish the death penalty. >>>>>> >>>>>> Furthermore, it is beyond a reasonable doubt that historically in this country the death penalty has been disproportionately imposed upon People of Color and the Poor. This violates the fundamental guarantee found in the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which provides that everyone in this country is entitled to the Equal Protection of the Laws. The death penalty has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor, and this is due to the intrinsic nature of American society. Namely, whether we like it or not, American society is inherently racist and capitalist. For this reason, the death penalty in America has always discriminated against People of Color and the Poor and will continue to do so as long as we remain a racist and capitalist society. >>>>>> >>>>>> Due to the fact that America has always been a heterogeneous society consisting of men and women drawn from different races whose ancestors came from other countries around the world, or else were brought here against their will (e.g., African Americans), or else were already here when the rest of our ancestors arrived (e.g., Native Americans), I doubt very seriously that we will ever be able to eliminate all vestiges of racism and racial discrimination from America. And I make that statement with a great deal of regret. Nevertheless, I believe it to be true. America's inherent racism has always been manifest in the disproportionate imposition of the death penalty on African Americans, Latinos, and other People of Color in this country. >>>>>> >>>>>> Similarly, America is a capitalist society run on the principle: "You get what you pay for." This is true for education, housing, health care, justice, and just about anything else. There is a direct correlation between the amount of money you can pay and the quantity and quality of justice you can obtain in America. I make that statement based upon my experience of having practiced law for over seventeen years, including stints with three large corporate law firms. >>>>>> >>>>>> Recent confirmation of this proposition can be found in the double-murder trial of O.J. Simpson. He got a lot of "justice" because he had a lot of money. Indeed, the prosecutors purposely chose not to seek the death penalty in the first place for what was obviously a capital offense under California law. >>>>>> >>>>>> By comparison, those who are charged with first-degree murder are typically left to the vicissitudes of the public defender's office -- where they exist. This is not to call into question the competence and integrity of public defenders. But I am sure most public defenders would agree that they are overworked, understaffed and underpaid. How can we in the United States allow the most critical issue our courts are ever called upon to decide--life or death--to be determined on the basis of anything but the best legal representation that can be provided. Yet, the contrary happens every day here in the United States of America. >>>>>> >>>>>> I always found it particularly distressing when my students would then argue that it is cheaper to execute a convicted murderer than to keep him or her alive. Under the pernicious influence of the so-called Law and Economics Movement originating out of the now reactionary University of Chicago (where I attended college), arguments based upon principles of economic efficiency, utility, profit and outright greed have come to supplant considerations of justice, fairness, and compassion at an increasingly larger number of law schools in America today. Nevertheless, the statistics prove this economic argument in favor of the death penalty to be false as well. It is far more expensive to execute someone than to keep that individual alive for the rest of his or her natural life in prison. >>>>>> >>>>>> Indeed, the leading econometric study of the death penalty -- Ehrlich, The Deterrent Effect of Capital Punishment: A Question of Life and Death, 65 Amer. Econ. Rev. 397 (1975) -- found in part that the murder rate is negatively related to the labor force participation rate and positively to the unemployment rate. Hence, the rate of murder and other related crimes can be reduced through increased employment and earnings opportunities. Thus, I argued to my first year law students, perhaps the most effective way to prevent homicides was to make it a serious federal crime for government decision-makers to pursue economic policies that they know will increase the rate of unemployment in the United States. >>>>>> >>>>>> Furthermore, as a teacher I always objected to the immoral premises that underlie the economic argument in favor of the death penalty. The State has absolutely no right to take a human life because it is allegedly cheaper to kill that person than to keep him or her alive for any reason. Otherwise, the State would have a license to kill anyone that it does not deem to be economically productive or efficient: premature infants in neonatology wards; paraplegics and quadriplegics; the mentally retarded; the physically handicapped; the psychologically disturbed; the welfare mother; the senior citizen with Alzheimer's disease, etc. There would be no end in sight to the human carnage if America were to make decisions on whether the State should put people to death for economic reasons. If this self-styled principle of economic efficiency is allowed to prevail in America, then our society will become not much different from Nazi Germany where the terror of execution was used to produce a master race. In other words, we would be using the principle of economic efficiency to exterminate all those whom a certain group of us believe do not live up to some minimal criteria for existence. >>>>>> >>>>>> The Second World War and the Nazi Holocaust against the Jewish People, the Slavic Peoples--such as Russians and Poles--as well as Gypsies was the ultimate working-out of this philosophy: the so-called Final Solution. Yet, we here in the United States use the death penalty as our "Final Solution" to the most serious problems that confront our society today--poverty, racism, unemployment, drug abuse, etc. For example, a few years ago our so-called drug czar, William Bennett, publicly called for the beheading of drug dealers. >>>>>> >>>>>> Our government decision-makers wield the death penalty as the ultimate form of state terrorism in order to keep the enormous injustices, inequalities, hypocrisies, and deficiencies of American society within what they believe to be tolerable limits. This calls to mind the critique of the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution put forth by Edmund Burke, the great conservative: At the end of every vista, one sees nothing but the gallows. That is an incredibly accurate description of America today. Yet, somewhat paradoxically, Burke has always been the great philosophical hero to the conservative movement in the United States. >>>>>> >>>>>> The final argument in support of the death penalty goes back, supposedly, to the Bible. In other words, the Law of the Talon--an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, stripe for stripe, etc. Of course, you cannot find that argument in the New Testament, but to the contrary a philosophy that is premised on a diametrically opposed operational rationale: turn the other cheek, give the other cloak, walk the extra mile, etc. This is not to argue that the New Testament is better or worse than the Old Testament on this or any other matter. But rather, that those who cite the Bible in support of the death penalty conveniently overlook the philosophy of love, forgiveness and compassion preached by Jesus Christ and his immediate disciples. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thus, when publicly asked his opinion about the pending execution of an adulterous woman by stoning as required by law, Christ retorted: "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." Certainly "Christian" proponents of the death penalty in America should ponder the meaning of this injunction. After all, Christ himself was the ultimate victim of capital punishment. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nevertheless, the Law of the Talon did not originate with the Bible, but rather with Hammurabi, the first great king of Babylon, around 1700 B.C. At that time, Hammurabi promulgated what has come to be known as Hammurabi's Code, the essence of which was the Law of the Talon. Yet, originally, Hammurabi intended this principle to be progressive, not regressive. The Law of the Talon was designed to establish some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime. >>>>>> >>>>>> Before Hammurabi's Code, in the customary practice of ancient Babylon, there was no necessary requirement of proportionality between punishment and crime. Rather, a system of blood feud based upon revenge prevailed whereby the victim's family would wreak vengeance against the perpetrator or his family that oftentimes was completely disproportionate to the original offense. Hammurabi wanted to take the enforcement of criminal law out of the hands of private individuals and put it into the hands of the state to prevent the private anarchy of the blood feud. In addition, he also wanted to institute some degree of proportionality between the punishment and the crime, and thus to impose some humanitarian limitations upon the enforcement of criminal law penalties. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hammurabi's Code was promulgated around the year 1700 B.C. by the ruler of one of the Middle Eastern world's first great military empires. And yet today, almost four millennia later, we here in the American Empire still have people citing Hammurabi's Law of the Talon to justify the death penalty despite the fact that we are supposed to be a popular democracy with a commitment to the Rule of Law. Indeed, here in the United States of America, we instituted a Constitution for all the people over 200 years ago. The Eighth Amendment to that Constitution prohibits the infliction of "cruel and unusual punishments." It seems to me that our degree of civilization should have improved considerably beyond the days of Hammurabi to the point that the death penalty has indeed become a cruel and unusual punishment. This conclusion becomes crystal clear when America's practice of capital punishment is contrasted with the abolitionist policies of so many Western liberal democracies that we like to compare ourselves to. It is about time for the United States of America to relegate this barbarous remnant of ancient times to the dustbin of history. >>>>>> >>>>>> At the end of spending six or seven class days patiently going through all the arguments for and against the death penalty with my 70 or so first year law students, almost every year it was the case that I was able to turn a tentative majority in favor of the death penalty into a solid abolitionist majority. Both at the time and in retrospect, this reversal of opinion has always given me great hope that some day the majority of the American people who supposedly support the death penalty can be educated into becoming an abolitionist majority. >>>>>> >>>>>> In this regard, the U.S. news media all tell us that a solid majority of the American people support the death penalty. I submit this is because the news media have constantly told the American people that a majority of them support the death penalty and so a majority of them do indeed support the death penalty. The U.S. news media's coverage and presentation of the death penalty in America constitutes the classic example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. >>>>>> >>>>>> As someone who reads five or six newspapers almost every day except when I am on the road, it seems to me that the news media have purposefully failed to present the abolitionist side of the death penalty debate to the American people. In the United States the editorial party line of most media seems to be that since a majority of the American people support the death penalty, there is not much point in devoting too much time, too much energy, or too much coverage to the abolitionist side of the debate. This self-induced tautology is critical because the United States Supreme Court has indicated that so long as a majority of the American people continue to support the death penalty, then it cannot be said that the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment that is prohibited by the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nevertheless, the U.S. news media is itself protected by the First Amendment to that same Constitution. Therefore, because of the pivotal role played by the news media in shaping public opinion, I would submit that the news media have a constitutional responsibility to cover the abolitionist side of the debate over the death penalty on a level of complete equality with those who favor the imposition of the death penalty -- which they have so far failed to discharge. On this crucial question, whether rightly or wrongly, the Supreme Court has deferred to the judgment of U.S. public opinion. Therefore, it is up to those who shape U.S. public opinion to make sure that both sides of the death penalty debate are adequately, fairly, and equally presented. Thus, it must be the task of teachers not only to educate their students and the American people to the abolitionist point of view, but also to explain to the U.S. news media why they have a constitutional obligation to provide equal, adequate, and fair coverage of the abolitionist case against the death penalty. >>>>>> >>>>>> Over my past two decades as a teacher, it has oftentimes proven to be the case that the lectures I have delivered in the classroom returned several years later in order to stare me directly in the face. Thus, in April of 1994, I was asked by one of my former first year criminal law students, Ms. Karen Conti (Class of 1986) of the Chicago law firm of Adamski & Conti, to become Co-Counsel with her in order to prevent the pending execution of convicted mass-murderer John Wayne Gacy by the State of Illinois. Pursuant to my recommendation, we obtained a request for a stay of execution on his behalf from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights that was directed to Governor Jim Edgar on the grounds that the method of execution by lethal injection would constitute torture. Governor Edgar announced that he would ignore this request. Mr. Gacy declined my offer to try to get this request enforced in federal court. >>>>>> >>>>>> Amidst a public circus and a news media feeding frenzy, Mr. Gacy was executed on May 10, 1994. To the best of my knowledge, however, this was the first time ever that the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights intervened to prevent an execution in the United States on such grounds. See 33 Int'l L. Mats. 838 (1994). Hopefully, this precedent can be used to prevent the execution of some other human being in the United States in the future. >>>>>> >>>>>> Certainly, in the estimation of the U.S. news media, Mr. Gacy seemed to be the paradigmatic example of why there should be a death penalty in America. Even the usual opponents to capital punishment kept their distance from Mr. Gacy and did not do much more than go through the motions to oppose his execution. Apparently, on the supposition that there were more worthy candidates on death row in Illinois, they did not want to expend much capital or credibility on Mr. Gacy's behalf. Fortunately, that was not the way Ms. Conti saw the matter. She threw herself heart and soul into the cause of preventing Mr. Gacy's execution. Going all out to stop the execution of John Wayne Gacy proved to be the "acid test" of principled opposition to the death penalty in America today. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is not the first time that I have worked unsuccessfully to prevent the execution of a human being, and I am sure it will not be the last: State sponsored murders of human beings in America must be stopped. But if we as teachers are not prepared to stop it with someone like Mr. Gacy, then we are deluding ourselves. We become nothing more than so-called country club liberals who enjoy spouting off our commitments to high-sounding principles over cocktails and hors d'oeuvres to like-minded people at faculty clubs. >>>>>> >>>>>> Human life must be valued and protected from the State under all circumstances. According to Article 3 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." John Wayne Gacy had the exact same right to life as the rest of us. So long as the State can kill the Gacys of the world, it can kill any one or more of us. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> File:5.2\deathpen.#2 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Jun 9 23:53:15 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 18:53:15 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47E3A57F-0614-4916-B185-A7AC1FB1F5D5@gmail.com> [The law as devil?] MORTIMER [K. Aram] Peace, cousin Percy. You will make him mad. GLENDOWER [FAB] I can call spirits from the vasty deep. HOTSPUR [CGE] Why, so can I, or so can any man, But will they come when you do call for them? GLENDOWER [FAB] Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command the devil. HOTSPUR [CGE] And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil By telling truth. Tell truth and shame the devil. If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither, And I’ll be sworn I have power to shame him hence. O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil! MORTIMER [K. Aram] Come, come, no more of this unprofitable chat. --Henry IV, Part 1 (3.1) ### > On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Carl, > > Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born. > > It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sun Jun 10 00:10:27 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 00:10:27 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: <47E3A57F-0614-4916-B185-A7AC1FB1F5D5@gmail.com> References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> <47E3A57F-0614-4916-B185-A7AC1FB1F5D5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Carl: You really are a Sick Twit! How many human beings have you represented pro bono publico on death row? I can think of at least 4 in this country alone: John Wayne Gacey tortured to death by Governor Jim Edgar. African American Amos King tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Johnny Robinson tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Brian Baldwin fried to death by Alabama. RIPs. Francis A. Boyle Professor of Law Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 6:53 PM To: Karen Aram Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty [The law as devil?] MORTIMER [K. Aram] Peace, cousin Percy. You will make him mad. GLENDOWER [FAB] I can call spirits from the vasty deep. HOTSPUR [CGE] Why, so can I, or so can any man, But will they come when you do call for them? GLENDOWER [FAB] Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command the devil. HOTSPUR [CGE] And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil By telling truth. Tell truth and shame the devil. If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither, And I’ll be sworn I have power to shame him hence. O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil! MORTIMER [K. Aram] Come, come, no more of this unprofitable chat. --Henry IV, Part 1 (3.1) ### On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: Carl, Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born. It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 00:56:30 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 19:56:30 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <23F55D20-9E8D-4BC8-A47B-AB1869E6A0E1@gmail.com> Karen-- As you know, my model for political discussions and debate for more than 40 years has been Noam Chomsky - with a dash of Alex Cockburn thrown in. Both tried to tell the truth and shame (or beat) the devil. Chomsky: “It is the responsibility of intellectuals to speak the truth and to expose lies. This, at least, may seem enough of a truism to pass over without comment...” . That has not always produced unity and harmony on the local political scene, in the more than fifteen years of AWARE’s existence. (See, from more than a dozen years ago, “Illinois Anti-Warriors and the Attractive Senator” ). I don’t regret e.g. pointing out the fact that Obama was a fake, even if it harmed the unity (as it did) of AWARE. You also know that it is not the case that I am “concerned with preserving the lives of fetuses while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily...” At the bromide level - “my political views: I'm basically against anything that kills people or destroys the planet we live on." Francis’ impassioned and admirable defense of human life curiously applies only to those who have had their umbilical cords detached - an apparently magical transformation that suddenly renders one human, and the subject of rights. I don’t subscribe to that religion. Regards, Carl > On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Carl, > > Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born. > > It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant . > From karenaram at hotmail.com Sun Jun 10 12:07:47 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 12:07:47 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: <23F55D20-9E8D-4BC8-A47B-AB1869E6A0E1@gmail.com> References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> <23F55D20-9E8D-4BC8-A47B-AB1869E6A0E1@gmail.com> Message-ID: You speak the truth when its in reference to the Democrats, but frequently stay silent when its in reference to the Republicans, and as to your statement: “Francis’ impassioned and admirable defense of human life curiously applies only to those who have had their umbilical cords detached - an apparently magical transformation that suddenly renders one human, and the subject of rights. I don’t subscribe to that religion.” is pure BS and personal opinion, not truth. Quoting Chomsky doesn’t make it so. Where does Chomsky bring the unborn into his discussions related to war? Attacking Francis every chance you can, is a sign you just want to provoke, and it has nothing to do with speaking truth, no matter how you cloak it. Have a good day. On Jun 9, 2018, at 17:56, C G Estabrook > wrote: Karen-- As you know, my model for political discussions and debate for more than 40 years has been Noam Chomsky - with a dash of Alex Cockburn thrown in. Both tried to tell the truth and shame (or beat) the devil. Chomsky: “It is the responsibility of intellectuals to speak the truth and to expose lies. This, at least, may seem enough of a truism to pass over without comment...” . That has not always produced unity and harmony on the local political scene, in the more than fifteen years of AWARE’s existence. (See, from more than a dozen years ago, “Illinois Anti-Warriors and the Attractive Senator” ). I don’t regret e.g. pointing out the fact that Obama was a fake, even if it harmed the unity (as it did) of AWARE. You also know that it is not the case that I am “concerned with preserving the lives of fetuses while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily...” At the bromide level - “my political views: I'm basically against anything that kills people or destroys the planet we live on." Francis’ impassioned and admirable defense of human life curiously applies only to those who have had their umbilical cords detached - an apparently magical transformation that suddenly renders one human, and the subject of rights. I don’t subscribe to that religion. Regards, Carl On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: Carl, Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born. It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 12:44:00 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 07:44:00 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> <47E3A57F-0614-4916-B185-A7AC1FB1F5D5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7D618C3E-6FEC-4E22-87D3-CC5D7B821261@gmail.com> Francis— I admire the principles on which you act in favor of the right to life of even reprobates like Gacy. I suggest that if we are consistent and 'tell truth' about the murderous devil-law that ends human lives, we will be ashamed of ending so many other human lives. Regards, Carl > On Jun 9, 2018, at 7:10 PM, Boyle, Francis A wrote: > > Carl: You really are a Sick Twit! How many human beings have you represented pro bono publico on death row? I can think of at least 4 in this country alone: John Wayne Gacey tortured to death by Governor Jim Edgar. African American Amos King tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Johnny Robinson tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Brian Baldwin fried to death by Alabama. RIPs. > Francis A. Boyle > Professor of Law > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 6:53 PM > To: Karen Aram > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > [The law as devil?] > > MORTIMER [K. Aram] > Peace, cousin Percy. You will make him mad. > GLENDOWER [FAB] > I can call spirits from the vasty deep. > HOTSPUR [CGE] > Why, so can I, or so can any man, > But will they come when you do call for them? > GLENDOWER [FAB] > Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command the devil. > HOTSPUR [CGE] > And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil > By telling truth. Tell truth and shame the devil. > If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither, > And I’ll be sworn I have power to shame him hence. > O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil! > MORTIMER [K. Aram] > Come, come, no more of this unprofitable chat. > > --Henry IV, Part 1 (3.1) > > ### > > > On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Carl, > > Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born. > > It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant . From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 12:58:42 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 07:58:42 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> <23F55D20-9E8D-4BC8-A47B-AB1869E6A0E1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44179C45-E0EE-48CE-93F3-5ED7E63E50EE@gmail.com> Discussing politics involves saying so when you think others are right or wrong, be they Republicans, Democrats, Arams, or Boyles — as Chomsky suggests (below) for ‘intellectuals’ — those who have the leisure to read and write, think and talk about such matters. > On Jun 10, 2018, at 7:07 AM, Karen Aram wrote: > > You speak the truth when its in reference to the Democrats, but frequently stay silent when its in reference to the Republicans, and as to your statement: > > “Francis’ impassioned and admirable defense of human life curiously applies only to those who have had their umbilical cords detached - an apparently magical transformation that suddenly renders one human, and the subject of rights. I don’t subscribe to that religion.” > > is pure BS and personal opinion, not truth. Quoting Chomsky doesn’t make it so. Where does Chomsky bring the unborn into his discussions related to war? Attacking Francis every chance you can, is a sign you just want to provoke, and it has nothing to do with speaking truth, no matter how you cloak it. > > Have a good day. > > > On Jun 9, 2018, at 17:56, C G Estabrook > wrote: >> >> >> Karen-- >> >> As you know, my model for political discussions and debate for more than 40 years has been Noam Chomsky - with a dash of Alex Cockburn thrown in. >> >> Both tried to tell the truth and shame (or beat) the devil. Chomsky: “It is the responsibility of intellectuals to speak the truth and to expose lies. This, at least, may seem enough of a truism to pass over without comment...” >. >> >> That has not always produced unity and harmony on the local political scene, in the more than fifteen years of AWARE’s existence. (See, from more than a dozen years ago, “Illinois Anti-Warriors and the Attractive Senator” >). >> >> I don’t regret e.g. pointing out the fact that Obama was a fake, even if it harmed the unity (as it did) of AWARE. >> >> You also know that it is not the case that I am “concerned with preserving the lives of fetuses while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily...” >> >> At the bromide level - “my political views: I'm basically against anything that kills people or destroys the planet we live on." >> >> Francis’ impassioned and admirable defense of human life curiously applies only to those who have had their umbilical cords detached - an apparently magical transformation that suddenly renders one human, and the subject of rights. I don’t subscribe to that religion. >> >> Regards, >> Carl >> >>> On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>> >>> Carl, >>> >>> Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born. >>> >>> It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant . >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sun Jun 10 13:41:55 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 13:41:55 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: <7D618C3E-6FEC-4E22-87D3-CC5D7B821261@gmail.com> References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> <47E3A57F-0614-4916-B185-A7AC1FB1F5D5@gmail.com> <7D618C3E-6FEC-4E22-87D3-CC5D7B821261@gmail.com> Message-ID: To the best of my knowledge, I was the first person ever to teach International Human Rights Law to Harvard Undergraduates--that was during the 1977-1978 Academic Year. I don't need to be lectured by you Harvard undergraduate. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 7:44 AM To: Boyle, Francis A Cc: Karen Aram ; Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty Francis— I admire the principles on which you act in favor of the right to life of even reprobates like Gacy. I suggest that if we are consistent and 'tell truth' about the murderous devil-law that ends human lives, we will be ashamed of ending so many other human lives. Regards, Carl > On Jun 9, 2018, at 7:10 PM, Boyle, Francis A wrote: > > Carl: You really are a Sick Twit! How many human beings have you represented pro bono publico on death row? I can think of at least 4 in this country alone: John Wayne Gacey tortured to death by Governor Jim Edgar. African American Amos King tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Johnny Robinson tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Brian Baldwin fried to death by Alabama. RIPs. > Francis A. Boyle > Professor of Law > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] > On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 6:53 PM > To: Karen Aram > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death > Penalty > > [The law as devil?] > > MORTIMER [K. Aram] > Peace, cousin Percy. You will make him mad. > GLENDOWER [FAB] > I can call spirits from the vasty deep. > HOTSPUR [CGE] > Why, so can I, or so can any man, > But will they come when you do call for them? > GLENDOWER [FAB] > Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command the devil. > HOTSPUR [CGE] > And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil By telling truth. Tell > truth and shame the devil. > If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither, And I’ll be sworn I > have power to shame him hence. > O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil! > MORTIMER [K. Aram] > Come, come, no more of this unprofitable chat. > > --Henry IV, Part 1 (3.1) > > ### > > > On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Carl, > > Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born. > > It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant . From rwhelbig at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 14:06:28 2018 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 07:06:28 -0700 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> <47E3A57F-0614-4916-B185-A7AC1FB1F5D5@gmail.com> <7D618C3E-6FEC-4E22-87D3-CC5D7B821261@gmail.com> Message-ID: so when did you begin to teach them to use liars as witnesses - or are you one of those who says, do as I say and not as I do? Roger On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 6:41 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > To the best of my knowledge, I was the first person ever to teach > International Human Rights Law to Harvard Undergraduates--that was during > the 1977-1978 Academic Year. I don't need to be lectured by you Harvard > undergraduate. Fab. > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 7:44 AM > To: Boyle, Francis A > Cc: Karen Aram ; Peace-discuss List ( > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death > Penalty > > Francis— > > I admire the principles on which you act in favor of the right to life of > even reprobates like Gacy. > > I suggest that if we are consistent and 'tell truth' about the murderous > devil-law that ends human lives, we will be ashamed of ending so many other > human lives. > > Regards, Carl > > > > On Jun 9, 2018, at 7:10 PM, Boyle, Francis A > wrote: > > > > Carl: You really are a Sick Twit! How many human beings have you > represented pro bono publico on death row? I can think of at least 4 in > this country alone: John Wayne Gacey tortured to death by Governor Jim > Edgar. African American Amos King tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in > Florida. African American Johnny Robinson tortured to death by Jebbie Bush > in Florida. African American Brian Baldwin fried to death by Alabama. RIPs. > > Francis A. Boyle > > Professor of Law > > > > Francis A. Boyle > > Law Building > > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > > Champaign IL 61820 USA > > 217-333-7954 (phone) > > 217-244-1478 (fax) > > (personal comments only) > > > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] > > On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 6:53 PM > > To: Karen Aram > > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > > > > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death > > Penalty > > > > [The law as devil?] > > > > MORTIMER [K. Aram] > > Peace, cousin Percy. You will make him mad. > > GLENDOWER [FAB] > > I can call spirits from the vasty deep. > > HOTSPUR [CGE] > > Why, so can I, or so can any man, > > But will they come when you do call for them? > > GLENDOWER [FAB] > > Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command the devil. > > HOTSPUR [CGE] > > And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil By telling truth. Tell > > truth and shame the devil. > > If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither, And I’ll be sworn I > > have power to shame him hence. > > O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil! > > MORTIMER [K. Aram] > > Come, come, no more of this unprofitable chat. > > > > --Henry IV, Part 1 (3.1) > > > > ### > > > > > > On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > > > Carl, > > > > Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the > organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the > brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned > with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives > of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with > the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, > while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do > care about the lives of the already born. > > > > It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and prevent any possibility of > uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal > views that are irrelevant . > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sun Jun 10 14:25:02 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 14:25:02 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> <47E3A57F-0614-4916-B185-A7AC1FB1F5D5@gmail.com> <7D618C3E-6FEC-4E22-87D3-CC5D7B821261@gmail.com> Message-ID: Why I even had a Membership in the Harvard Faculty Club where I used to eat lunch and dinner in between teaching Harvard Undergraduates like Carl. They still had horse steaks on the menu going back to meat rationing during World War II. Some of the Harvard Faculty had developed a taste for horse meat, so they kept it on the menu. Used to get the horse steaks from horses that had been “retired” from racing at Suffolk Downs. So there was not much fat on the horse steaks. Pretty Lean cuts of meat I was told. I never tried horse steaks myself. Hi Yo Silver, away!—at the Harvard Faculty Club. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Roger Helbig [mailto:rwhelbig at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 9:06 AM To: Boyle, Francis A Cc: C G Estabrook ; Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) ; Karen Aram Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty so when did you begin to teach them to use liars as witnesses - or are you one of those who says, do as I say and not as I do? Roger On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 6:41 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss > wrote: To the best of my knowledge, I was the first person ever to teach International Human Rights Law to Harvard Undergraduates--that was during the 1977-1978 Academic Year. I don't need to be lectured by you Harvard undergraduate. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 7:44 AM To: Boyle, Francis A > Cc: Karen Aram >; Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty Francis— I admire the principles on which you act in favor of the right to life of even reprobates like Gacy. I suggest that if we are consistent and 'tell truth' about the murderous devil-law that ends human lives, we will be ashamed of ending so many other human lives. Regards, Carl > On Jun 9, 2018, at 7:10 PM, Boyle, Francis A > wrote: > > Carl: You really are a Sick Twit! How many human beings have you represented pro bono publico on death row? I can think of at least 4 in this country alone: John Wayne Gacey tortured to death by Governor Jim Edgar. African American Amos King tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Johnny Robinson tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Brian Baldwin fried to death by Alabama. RIPs. > Francis A. Boyle > Professor of Law > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] > On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 6:53 PM > To: Karen Aram > > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > > > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death > Penalty > > [The law as devil?] > > MORTIMER [K. Aram] > Peace, cousin Percy. You will make him mad. > GLENDOWER [FAB] > I can call spirits from the vasty deep. > HOTSPUR [CGE] > Why, so can I, or so can any man, > But will they come when you do call for them? > GLENDOWER [FAB] > Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command the devil. > HOTSPUR [CGE] > And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil By telling truth. Tell > truth and shame the devil. > If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither, And I’ll be sworn I > have power to shame him hence. > O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil! > MORTIMER [K. Aram] > Come, come, no more of this unprofitable chat. > > --Henry IV, Part 1 (3.1) > > ### > > > On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > Carl, > > Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born. > > It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant . _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sun Jun 10 14:32:26 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 14:32:26 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> <47E3A57F-0614-4916-B185-A7AC1FB1F5D5@gmail.com> <7D618C3E-6FEC-4E22-87D3-CC5D7B821261@gmail.com> Message-ID: But don’t get upset PETA People. By the last time I was there they had removed the horse steaks from the menu. Fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 9:25 AM To: 'Roger Helbig' Cc: C G Estabrook ; Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) ; Karen Aram Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty Why I even had a Membership in the Harvard Faculty Club where I used to eat lunch and dinner in between teaching Harvard Undergraduates like Carl. They still had horse steaks on the menu going back to meat rationing during World War II. Some of the Harvard Faculty had developed a taste for horse meat, so they kept it on the menu. Used to get the horse steaks from horses that had been “retired” from racing at Suffolk Downs. So there was not much fat on the horse steaks. Pretty Lean cuts of meat I was told. I never tried horse steaks myself. Hi Yo Silver, away!—at the Harvard Faculty Club. fab Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Roger Helbig [mailto:rwhelbig at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 9:06 AM To: Boyle, Francis A > Cc: C G Estabrook >; Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) >; Karen Aram > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty so when did you begin to teach them to use liars as witnesses - or are you one of those who says, do as I say and not as I do? Roger On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 6:41 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss > wrote: To the best of my knowledge, I was the first person ever to teach International Human Rights Law to Harvard Undergraduates--that was during the 1977-1978 Academic Year. I don't need to be lectured by you Harvard undergraduate. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) -----Original Message----- From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 7:44 AM To: Boyle, Francis A > Cc: Karen Aram >; Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty Francis— I admire the principles on which you act in favor of the right to life of even reprobates like Gacy. I suggest that if we are consistent and 'tell truth' about the murderous devil-law that ends human lives, we will be ashamed of ending so many other human lives. Regards, Carl > On Jun 9, 2018, at 7:10 PM, Boyle, Francis A > wrote: > > Carl: You really are a Sick Twit! How many human beings have you represented pro bono publico on death row? I can think of at least 4 in this country alone: John Wayne Gacey tortured to death by Governor Jim Edgar. African American Amos King tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Johnny Robinson tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Brian Baldwin fried to death by Alabama. RIPs. > Francis A. Boyle > Professor of Law > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] > On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 6:53 PM > To: Karen Aram > > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > > > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death > Penalty > > [The law as devil?] > > MORTIMER [K. Aram] > Peace, cousin Percy. You will make him mad. > GLENDOWER [FAB] > I can call spirits from the vasty deep. > HOTSPUR [CGE] > Why, so can I, or so can any man, > But will they come when you do call for them? > GLENDOWER [FAB] > Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command the devil. > HOTSPUR [CGE] > And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil By telling truth. Tell > truth and shame the devil. > If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither, And I’ll be sworn I > have power to shame him hence. > O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil! > MORTIMER [K. Aram] > Come, come, no more of this unprofitable chat. > > --Henry IV, Part 1 (3.1) > > ### > > > On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > Carl, > > Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born. > > It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant . _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ewj at pigs.ag Sun Jun 10 14:32:30 2018 From: ewj at pigs.ag (ewj) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 22:32:30 +0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> <47E3A57F-0614-4916-B185-A7AC1FB1F5D5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1528641149343.dv53z5qllvt55fu4udyilb3n@android.mail.163.com> it is interesting that a university professor of law, searching his vocabulary and his desk for something to sling at an opponent, can not come up anything more barbed or interesting than "sick twit", and breaks his arm patting himself on the back for his probono work. blow more trumpets francis. Deadpool: His name's not Ajax. It's Francis....F...R... On 2018-06-10 08:10 , Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss Wrote: Carl: You really are a Sick Twit! How many human beings  have you represented pro bono publico on death row? I can think of at least 4 in this country alone: John Wayne Gacey tortured to death by Governor Jim Edgar.  African American Amos King tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Johnny Robinson tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Brian Baldwin fried to death by Alabama. RIPs. Francis A. Boyle Professor of Law Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 6:53 PM To: Karen Aram Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty [The law as devil?] MORTIMER [K. Aram] Peace, cousin Percy. You will make him mad. GLENDOWER [FAB] I can call spirits from the vasty deep. HOTSPUR [CGE] Why, so can I, or so can any man, But will they come when you do call for them? GLENDOWER [FAB] Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command the devil. HOTSPUR [CGE] And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil By telling truth. Tell truth and shame the devil. If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither, And I’ll be sworn I have power to shame him hence. O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil! MORTIMER [K. Aram] Come, come, no more of this unprofitable chat. --Henry IV, Part 1 (3.1) ### On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: Carl,  Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born.  It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and  prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sun Jun 10 14:40:57 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 14:40:57 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: <1528641149343.dv53z5qllvt55fu4udyilb3n@android.mail.163.com> References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> <47E3A57F-0614-4916-B185-A7AC1FB1F5D5@gmail.com> <1528641149343.dv53z5qllvt55fu4udyilb3n@android.mail.163.com> Message-ID: No, I knocked myself out 24/7 trying to save the lives of 4 human beings--3 of whom were Indigent Black Men being tortured to death by Racist Confederate States in the Old South. And Carl is a Sick Twit to make fun of it and Them My Clients. RIPs. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of ewj via Peace-discuss Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 9:33 AM To: Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss Cc: Karen Aram Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty it is interesting that a university professor of law, searching his vocabulary and his desk for something to sling at an opponent, can not come up anything more barbed or interesting than "sick twit", and breaks his arm patting himself on the back for his probono work. blow more trumpets francis. Deadpool: His name's not Ajax. It's Francis....F...R... On 2018-06-10 08:10 , Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss Wrote: Carl: You really are a Sick Twit! How many human beings have you represented pro bono publico on death row? I can think of at least 4 in this country alone: John Wayne Gacey tortured to death by Governor Jim Edgar. African American Amos King tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Johnny Robinson tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Brian Baldwin fried to death by Alabama. RIPs. Francis A. Boyle Professor of Law Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 6:53 PM To: Karen Aram > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty [The law as devil?] MORTIMER [K. Aram] Peace, cousin Percy. You will make him mad. GLENDOWER [FAB] I can call spirits from the vasty deep. HOTSPUR [CGE] Why, so can I, or so can any man, But will they come when you do call for them? GLENDOWER [FAB] Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command the devil. HOTSPUR [CGE] And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil By telling truth. Tell truth and shame the devil. If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither, And I’ll be sworn I have power to shame him hence. O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil! MORTIMER [K. Aram] Come, come, no more of this unprofitable chat. --Henry IV, Part 1 (3.1) ### On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: Carl, Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born. It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: ATT00001.txt URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Sun Jun 10 14:52:57 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 14:52:57 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> <47E3A57F-0614-4916-B185-A7AC1FB1F5D5@gmail.com> <1528641149343.dv53z5qllvt55fu4udyilb3n@android.mail.163.com> Message-ID: In the case of Mr. King I got a 30 minute stay of execution from the Florida Supreme Court, and then Racist Jebbie Bush took him out and tortured him to death. In the case of Mr. Robinson, I got a 90 minute stay of execution from the United States Supreme Court, and then Racist Jebbie Bush took him out and tortured him to death. There was nothing I could do to prevent Racist Alabama from frying Mr. Baldwin to death. You have no idea what it is like to sit by your phone and wait to hear if your Clients are going to live or die. Estabroook is a Sick Twit to make fun of It and Them My Clients. Ditto for you! fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Boyle, Francis A Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 9:41 AM To: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) Subject: FW: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty No, I knocked myself out 24/7 trying to save the lives of 4 human beings--3 of whom were Indigent Black Men being tortured to death by Racist Confederate States in the Old South. And Carl is a Sick Twit to make fun of it and Them My Clients. RIPs. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of ewj via Peace-discuss Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 9:33 AM To: Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss > Cc: Karen Aram > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty it is interesting that a university professor of law, searching his vocabulary and his desk for something to sling at an opponent, can not come up anything more barbed or interesting than "sick twit", and breaks his arm patting himself on the back for his probono work. blow more trumpets francis. Deadpool: His name's not Ajax. It's Francis....F...R... On 2018-06-10 08:10 , Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss Wrote: Carl: You really are a Sick Twit! How many human beings have you represented pro bono publico on death row? I can think of at least 4 in this country alone: John Wayne Gacey tortured to death by Governor Jim Edgar. African American Amos King tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Johnny Robinson tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Brian Baldwin fried to death by Alabama. RIPs. Francis A. Boyle Professor of Law Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 6:53 PM To: Karen Aram > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty [The law as devil?] MORTIMER [K. Aram] Peace, cousin Percy. You will make him mad. GLENDOWER [FAB] I can call spirits from the vasty deep. HOTSPUR [CGE] Why, so can I, or so can any man, But will they come when you do call for them? GLENDOWER [FAB] Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command the devil. HOTSPUR [CGE] And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil By telling truth. Tell truth and shame the devil. If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither, And I’ll be sworn I have power to shame him hence. O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil! MORTIMER [K. Aram] Come, come, no more of this unprofitable chat. --Henry IV, Part 1 (3.1) ### On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: Carl, Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born. It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Sun Jun 10 16:04:21 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 11:04:21 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> <47E3A57F-0614-4916-B185-A7AC1FB1F5D5@gmail.com> <1528641149343.dv53z5qllvt55fu4udyilb3n@android.mail.163.com> Message-ID: Come on, Francis. Of course I didn’t “make fun of it and them [your] clients.” I said that your statement on the right to life of even reprobates was admirable. It needed to be extended to other cases of wrongful death. > On Jun 10, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: > > No, I knocked myself out 24/7 trying to save the lives of 4 human beings--3 of whom were Indigent Black Men being tortured to death by Racist Confederate States in the Old South. And Carl is a Sick Twit to make fun of it and Them My Clients. RIPs. Fab. > > > > Francis A. Boyle > > Law Building > > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > > Champaign IL 61820 USA > > 217-333-7954 (phone) > > 217-244-1478 (fax) > > (personal comments only) > > > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of ewj via Peace-discuss > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 9:33 AM > To: Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss > Cc: Karen Aram > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > > > it is interesting that a university professor of law, searching his vocabulary and his desk for something to sling at an opponent, can not come up anything more barbed or interesting than "sick twit", and breaks his arm patting himself on the back for his probono work. blow more trumpets francis. > > Deadpool: His name's not Ajax. It's Francis....F...R... > > > > > > On 2018-06-10 08:10 , Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss Wrote: > > > > Carl: You really are a Sick Twit! How many human beings have you represented pro bono publico on death row? I can think of at least 4 in this country alone: John Wayne Gacey tortured to death by Governor Jim Edgar. African American Amos King tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Johnny Robinson tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Brian Baldwin fried to death by Alabama. RIPs. > > Francis A. Boyle > > Professor of Law > > > > Francis A. Boyle > > Law Building > > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > > Champaign IL 61820 USA > > 217-333-7954 (phone) > > 217-244-1478 (fax) > > (personal comments only) > > > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 6:53 PM > To: Karen Aram > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > > > [The law as devil?] > > MORTIMER [K. Aram] > Peace, cousin Percy. You will make him mad. > GLENDOWER [FAB] > I can call spirits from the vasty deep. > HOTSPUR [CGE] > Why, so can I, or so can any man, > But will they come when you do call for them? > GLENDOWER [FAB] > Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command the devil. > HOTSPUR [CGE] > And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil > By telling truth. Tell truth and shame the devil. > If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither, > And I’ll be sworn I have power to shame him hence. > O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil! > MORTIMER [K. Aram] > Come, come, no more of this unprofitable chat. > > --Henry IV, Part 1 (3.1) > > ### > > > > > > On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > > Carl, > > Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born. > > It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant . > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From karenaram at hotmail.com Sun Jun 10 17:36:44 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 17:36:44 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Peace discuss Message-ID: Wayne, I thought I took myself off the Peace Discuss List a couple weeks ago, by removing my email address. I had forgotten I was there under an email address you put me on, do you remember what it is? I send out email information to people on this list, it appears to be a waste of time. The arguments by people who really don’t care, just like the exercise of arguing, gets us no where. From ewj at pigs.ag Mon Jun 11 07:11:17 2018 From: ewj at pigs.ag (E. Wayne Johnson) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 15:11:17 +0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> <47E3A57F-0614-4916-B185-A7AC1FB1F5D5@gmail.com> <1528641149343.dv53z5qllvt55fu4udyilb3n@android.mail.163.com> Message-ID: It really would not be fair to call Prof. Boyle a /Deranged Attention Whore/. Not just because he pursued some highly sensational lost causes. Let's reserve "Deranged Attention Whore" for the name of some punk rock outfit. One is thus less likely to be accused of name-calling and such. Zeal is a a measure of zeal. Zeal for a cause is not a measure of truth or the validity of said cause. * Job was smitten from head to toe with festering boyles. One can only imagine how painful it was. Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > Come on, Francis. Of course I didn’t “make fun of it and them [your] clients.” > > I said that your statement on the right to life of even reprobates was admirable. > > It needed to be extended to other cases of wrongful death. > > >> On Jun 10, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> No, I knocked myself out 24/7 trying to save the lives of 4 human beings--3 of whom were Indigent Black Men being tortured to death by Racist Confederate States in the Old South. And Carl is a Sick Twit to make fun of it and Them My Clients. RIPs. Fab. >> >> >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> >> Law Building >> >> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >> >> Champaign IL 61820 USA >> >> 217-333-7954 (phone) >> >> 217-244-1478 (fax) >> >> (personal comments only) >> >> >> >> From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of ewj via Peace-discuss >> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 9:33 AM >> To: Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss >> Cc: Karen Aram >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >> >> >> >> it is interesting that a university professor of law, searching his vocabulary and his desk for something to sling at an opponent, can not come up anything more barbed or interesting than "sick twit", and breaks his arm patting himself on the back for his probono work. blow more trumpets francis. >> >> Deadpool: His name's not Ajax. It's Francis....F...R... >> >> >> >> >> >> On 2018-06-10 08:10 , Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss Wrote: >> >> >> >> Carl: You really are a Sick Twit! How many human beings have you represented pro bono publico on death row? I can think of at least 4 in this country alone: John Wayne Gacey tortured to death by Governor Jim Edgar. African American Amos King tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Johnny Robinson tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Brian Baldwin fried to death by Alabama. RIPs. >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> >> Professor of Law >> >> >> >> Francis A. Boyle >> >> Law Building >> >> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. >> >> Champaign IL 61820 USA >> >> 217-333-7954 (phone) >> >> 217-244-1478 (fax) >> >> (personal comments only) >> >> >> >> From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 6:53 PM >> To: Karen Aram >> Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty >> >> >> >> [The law as devil?] >> >> MORTIMER [K. Aram] >> Peace, cousin Percy. You will make him mad. >> GLENDOWER [FAB] >> I can call spirits from the vasty deep. >> HOTSPUR [CGE] >> Why, so can I, or so can any man, >> But will they come when you do call for them? >> GLENDOWER [FAB] >> Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command the devil. >> HOTSPUR [CGE] >> And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil >> By telling truth. Tell truth and shame the devil. >> If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither, >> And I’ll be sworn I have power to shame him hence. >> O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil! >> MORTIMER [K. Aram] >> Come, come, no more of this unprofitable chat. >> >> --Henry IV, Part 1 (3.1) >> >> ### >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> >> >> Carl, >> >> Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born. >> >> It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant . >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fboyle at illinois.edu Mon Jun 11 11:25:38 2018 From: fboyle at illinois.edu (Boyle, Francis A) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 11:25:38 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> <47E3A57F-0614-4916-B185-A7AC1FB1F5D5@gmail.com> <1528641149343.dv53z5qllvt55fu4udyilb3n@android.mail.163.com> Message-ID: Fine. Would the list owner please remove me from this list or send me instructions to do so. You are welcome to each other. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: E. Wayne Johnson [mailto:ewj at pigs.ag] Sent: Monday, June 11, 2018 2:11 AM To: Estabrook, Carl G ; Boyle, Francis A Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty It really would not be fair to call Prof. Boyle a Deranged Attention Whore. Not just because he pursued some highly sensational lost causes. Let's reserve "Deranged Attention Whore" for the name of some punk rock outfit. One is thus less likely to be accused of name-calling and such. Zeal is a a measure of zeal. Zeal for a cause is not a measure of truth or the validity of said cause. * Job was smitten from head to toe with festering boyles. One can only imagine how painful it was. Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: Come on, Francis. Of course I didn’t “make fun of it and them [your] clients.” I said that your statement on the right to life of even reprobates was admirable. It needed to be extended to other cases of wrongful death. On Jun 10, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: No, I knocked myself out 24/7 trying to save the lives of 4 human beings--3 of whom were Indigent Black Men being tortured to death by Racist Confederate States in the Old South. And Carl is a Sick Twit to make fun of it and Them My Clients. RIPs. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of ewj via Peace-discuss Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 9:33 AM To: Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss Cc: Karen Aram Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty it is interesting that a university professor of law, searching his vocabulary and his desk for something to sling at an opponent, can not come up anything more barbed or interesting than "sick twit", and breaks his arm patting himself on the back for his probono work. blow more trumpets francis. Deadpool: His name's not Ajax. It's Francis....F...R... On 2018-06-10 08:10 , Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss Wrote: Carl: You really are a Sick Twit! How many human beings have you represented pro bono publico on death row? I can think of at least 4 in this country alone: John Wayne Gacey tortured to death by Governor Jim Edgar. African American Amos King tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Johnny Robinson tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Brian Baldwin fried to death by Alabama. RIPs. Francis A. Boyle Professor of Law Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 6:53 PM To: Karen Aram Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty [The law as devil?] MORTIMER [K. Aram] Peace, cousin Percy. You will make him mad. GLENDOWER [FAB] I can call spirits from the vasty deep. HOTSPUR [CGE] Why, so can I, or so can any man, But will they come when you do call for them? GLENDOWER [FAB] Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command the devil. HOTSPUR [CGE] And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil By telling truth. Tell truth and shame the devil. If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither, And I’ll be sworn I have power to shame him hence. O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil! MORTIMER [K. Aram] Come, come, no more of this unprofitable chat. --Henry IV, Part 1 (3.1) ### On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: Carl, Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born. It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant . _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ewj at pigs.ag Mon Jun 11 12:39:44 2018 From: ewj at pigs.ag (ewj) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 20:39:44 +0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> <47E3A57F-0614-4916-B185-A7AC1FB1F5D5@gmail.com> <1528641149343.dv53z5qllvt55fu4udyilb3n@android.mail.163.com> Message-ID: <1528720781548.cd5iur3nanqnkaf3i0d1fcu4@android.mail.163.com> again i am surprised that a tenured law professor at the university of illinois, a lauded warrior for the oppressed and underprivileged, and a consumer of aged mule steaks in high company at Harvard, is unable to extricate himself from an inevitable being mercilessly spammed into apoplexy by a community mail server. try... https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss and "R.T.F.M.", as they say. ignorance of the laws of mailman is no excuse. On 2018-06-11 19:25 , Boyle, Francis A Wrote: Fine. Would the list owner please remove me from this list or send me instructions to do so. You are welcome to each other. Fab. Francis A. Boyle Law Building 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. Champaign IL 61820 USA 217-333-7954 (phone) 217-244-1478 (fax) (personal comments only) From: E. Wayne Johnson [mailto:ewj at pigs.ag] Sent: Monday, June 11, 2018 2:11 AM To: Estabrook, Carl G ; Boyle, Francis A Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty It really would not be fair to call Prof. Boyle a Deranged Attention Whore. Not just because he pursued some highly sensational lost causes. Let's reserve "Deranged Attention Whore" for the name of some punk rock outfit. One is thus less likely to be accused of name-calling and such. Zeal is a a measure of zeal.  Zeal for a cause is not a measure of truth or the validity of said cause. * Job was smitten from head to toe with festering boyles. One can only imagine how painful it was. Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: Come on, Francis. Of course I didn’t “make fun of it and them [your] clients.”   I said that your statement on the right to life of even reprobates was admirable.   It needed to be extended to other cases of wrongful death.     On Jun 10, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote:   No, I knocked myself out 24/7 trying to save the lives of 4 human beings--3 of whom were Indigent Black Men being tortured to death by Racist Confederate States in the Old South. And Carl is a Sick Twit  to make fun of it and Them My Clients. RIPs. Fab.     Francis A. Boyle   Law Building   504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.   Champaign IL 61820 USA   217-333-7954 (phone)   217-244-1478 (fax)   (personal comments only)     From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of ewj via Peace-discuss Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 9:33 AM To: Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss Cc: Karen Aram Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty     it is interesting that a university professor of law, searching his vocabulary and his desk for something to sling at an opponent, can not come up anything more barbed or interesting than "sick twit", and breaks his arm patting himself on the back for his probono work.  blow more trumpets francis.   Deadpool:  His name's not Ajax.  It's Francis....F...R...           On 2018-06-10 08:10 , Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss Wrote:       Carl: You really are a Sick Twit! How many human beings  have you represented pro bono publico on death row? I can think of at least 4 in this country alone: John Wayne Gacey tortured to death by Governor Jim Edgar.  African American Amos King tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Johnny Robinson tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Brian Baldwin fried to death by Alabama. RIPs.   Francis A. Boyle   Professor of Law     Francis A. Boyle   Law Building   504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.   Champaign IL 61820 USA   217-333-7954 (phone)   217-244-1478 (fax)   (personal comments only)     From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 6:53 PM To: Karen Aram Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty     [The law as devil?]               MORTIMER [K. Aram] Peace, cousin Percy. You will make him mad.             GLENDOWER [FAB] I can call spirits from the vasty deep.             HOTSPUR [CGE] Why, so can I, or so can any man, But will they come when you do call for them?             GLENDOWER [FAB] Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command the devil.             HOTSPUR [CGE] And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil By telling truth. Tell truth and shame the devil. If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither, And I’ll be sworn I have power to shame him hence. O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil!             MORTIMER [K. Aram] Come, come, no more of this unprofitable chat.   --Henry IV, Part 1 (3.1)   ###       On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote:     Carl,   Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born.   It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and  prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant .     _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss   _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 12:53:40 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 07:53:40 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: <1528720781548.cd5iur3nanqnkaf3i0d1fcu4@android.mail.163.com> References: <3C9010C6652AB645BC025F2372A86BB20D668997@mail.law.uiuc.edu> <64A24D0C-2508-47B4-9D3A-00F2B4ADC58D@gmail.com> <1D705B60-C711-4387-8679-6C312DBB07F5@gmail.com> <6A447B62-3555-4B7C-AB7A-2D1594336544@gmail.com> <451D453D-27B0-436C-8D5A-AD5CCC36211D@gmail.com> <47E3A57F-0614-4916-B185-A7AC1FB1F5D5@gmail.com> <1528641149343.dv53z5qllvt55fu4udyilb3n@android.mail.163.com> <1528720781548.cd5iur3nanqnkaf3i0d1fcu4@android.mail.163.com> Message-ID: <52B0A6BE-480E-4E61-A980-C048C6AE22EC@gmail.com> "RTFM is used to express frustration at someone who asks questions to which the answers can be easily sought from another source. Also bowdlerized as read the fine manual or read the friendly manual.” [RTFM - Wiktionary https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/RTFM] > On Jun 11, 2018, at 7:39 AM, ewj via Peace-discuss wrote: > > again i am surprised that a tenured law professor at the university of illinois, a lauded warrior for the oppressed and underprivileged, and a consumer of aged mule steaks in high company at Harvard, is unable to extricate himself from an inevitable being mercilessly spammed into apoplexy by a community mail server. > > try... > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > and "R.T.F.M.", as they say. ignorance of the laws of mailman is no excuse. > > > On 2018-06-11 19:25 , Boyle, Francis A Wrote: > > Fine. Would the list owner please remove me from this list or send me instructions to do so. You are welcome to each other. Fab. > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > From: E. Wayne Johnson [mailto:ewj at pigs.ag] > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2018 2:11 AM > To: Estabrook, Carl G ; Boyle, Francis A > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > It really would not be fair to call Prof. Boyle a Deranged Attention Whore. > > Not just because he pursued some highly sensational lost causes. > > Let's reserve "Deranged Attention Whore" for the name of some punk rock outfit. > > One is thus less likely to be accused of name-calling and such. > > Zeal is a a measure of zeal. > > Zeal for a cause is not a measure of truth or the validity of said cause. > > * > Job was smitten from head to toe with festering boyles. > One can only imagine how painful it was. > > > Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > Come on, Francis. Of course I didn’t “make fun of it and them [your] clients.” > > I said that your statement on the right to life of even reprobates was admirable. > > It needed to be extended to other cases of wrongful death. > > > On Jun 10, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: > > No, I knocked myself out 24/7 trying to save the lives of 4 human beings--3 of whom were Indigent Black Men being tortured to death by Racist Confederate States in the Old South. And Carl is a Sick Twit to make fun of it and Them My Clients. RIPs. Fab. > > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of ewj via Peace-discuss > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 9:33 AM > To: Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss > Cc: Karen Aram > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > > it is interesting that a university professor of law, searching his vocabulary and his desk for something to sling at an opponent, can not come up anything more barbed or interesting than "sick twit", and breaks his arm patting himself on the back for his probono work. blow more trumpets francis. > > Deadpool: His name's not Ajax. It's Francis....F...R... > > > On 2018-06-10 08:10 , Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss Wrote: > > Carl: You really are a Sick Twit! How many human beings have you represented pro bono publico on death row? I can think of at least 4 in this country alone: John Wayne Gacey tortured to death by Governor Jim Edgar. African American Amos King tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Johnny Robinson tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Brian Baldwin fried to death by Alabama. RIPs. > > Francis A. Boyle > Professor of Law > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 6:53 PM > To: Karen Aram > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > > > [The law as devil?] > > MORTIMER [K. Aram] > Peace, cousin Percy. You will make him mad. > GLENDOWER [FAB] > I can call spirits from the vasty deep. > HOTSPUR [CGE] > Why, so can I, or so can any man, > But will they come when you do call for them? > GLENDOWER [FAB] > Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command the devil. > HOTSPUR [CGE] > And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil > By telling truth. Tell truth and shame the devil. > If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither, > And I’ll be sworn I have power to shame him hence. > O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil! > MORTIMER [K. Aram] > Come, come, no more of this unprofitable chat. > > --Henry IV, Part 1 (3.1) > > ### > > > On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Carl, > > Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born. > > It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant . > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 14:14:17 2018 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 09:14:17 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Chris Hedges interviews David Harvey Message-ID: Standard Harvey but always informative, especially re China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hgszeNb8wU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 14:17:28 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 09:17:28 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Chris Hedges interviews David Harvey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Text! Transcript! (For the impatient &/or hard of hearing…) > On Jun 11, 2018, at 9:14 AM, David Green via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Standard Harvey but always informative, especially re China: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hgszeNb8wU > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r-szoke at illinois.edu Mon Jun 11 18:08:57 2018 From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 18:08:57 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] On an Average Day, 96 Americans Die By Firearms References: <7324C2D1-F510-41E4-BA01-7B4D92B632C2@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <2FE9A829-2C7D-4DFE-B1CC-7852884959CA@illinois.edu> From: "Szoke, Ron" > Subject: NYTimes.com: On an Average Day, 96 Americans Die By Firearms Date: June 11, 2018 From The New York Times: On an Average Day, 96 Americans Die By Firearms Mass shootings represent just a fraction of the nation’s gun violence. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/10/opinion/editorials/gun-violence-pulse-orlando.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ewj at pigs.ag Mon Jun 11 20:22:15 2018 From: ewj at pigs.ag (ewj) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 04:22:15 +0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] On an Average Day, 96 Americans Die By Firearms In-Reply-To: <2FE9A829-2C7D-4DFE-B1CC-7852884959CA@illinois.edu> References: <7324C2D1-F510-41E4-BA01-7B4D92B632C2@illinois.edu><2FE9A829-2C7D-4DFE-B1CC-7852884959CA@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <1528748528862.eeqhcnfunxudgu32gvz4usth@android.mail.163.com> according to this report, about 67% are suicides. about two in every three are suicides, saith the new york times. i read it over and over again. surely it is not misprint or a typo. arguably murder could be done with an orange claw hammer or a silver one or a sears and roebuck crowbar or one from walmart but few who are out to do themselves in would choose a blunt instrument or even a very sharp one. it seems that this story is not about violence in Amerika but about depression and despair. It is Colonel Mustard in the basement on the rope. my personal tendencies taken to some dysfunctional extreme are more likely self defense that self destruction. i can relate to going after the noisy good humour man but not him driving me to suicide with his monotune and sticky confections. is the same logic used to defend abortion applicable here? in the absence of a gun the depressed will resort to rusty coat hangers and Drano? r. crumb suggested that the society would make cyanide pies available for the terminally despairing. sort of like tide pods,. only crunchy? take two. take more. I note of late that suicides are not condemned as they were in the society i grew up in. we would sympathize with families and shake our heads in disbelief and hope it was over. jourdain, williams, hemingway, cobain, boltzmann, cantor... what is up? if what the nytimes is saying is.tru On 2018-06-12 02:08 , Szoke, Ron via Peace-discuss Wrote: From: "Szoke, Ron" Subject: NYTimes.com: On an Average Day, 96 Americans Die By Firearms Date: June 11, 2018  From The New York Times: On an Average Day, 96 Americans Die By Firearms Mass shootings represent just a fraction of the nation’s gun violence. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/10/opinion/editorials/gun-violence-pulse-orlando.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ewj at pigs.ag Tue Jun 12 02:10:27 2018 From: ewj at pigs.ag (E. Wayne Johnson) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 10:10:27 +0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] On an Average Day, 96 Americans Die By Firearms In-Reply-To: <1528748528862.eeqhcnfunxudgu32gvz4usth@android.mail.163.com> References: <7324C2D1-F510-41E4-BA01-7B4D92B632C2@illinois.edu> <2FE9A829-2C7D-4DFE-B1CC-7852884959CA@illinois.edu> <1528748528862.eeqhcnfunxudgu32gvz4usth@android.mail.163.com> Message-ID: <76ca3543-198a-df96-d266-69ca7c928d21@pigs.ag> correction: cantor was not a suicide, but perhaps neither were the "suicides" of some wayward Clinton associates. ewj via Peace-discuss wrote: > according to this report, about 67% are suicides.  about two in every > three are suicides, saith the new york times.  i read it over and over > again.  surely it is not misprint or a typo. > > arguably murder could be done with an orange claw hammer or a silver > one or a sears and roebuck crowbar or one from walmart but few who are > out to do themselves in would choose a blunt instrument or even a very > sharp one. > > it seems that this story is not about violence in Amerika but about > depression and despair. > > It is Colonel Mustard in the basement on the rope. > > my personal tendencies taken to some dysfunctional extreme are more > likely self defense that self destruction.  i can relate to going > after the noisy good humour man but not him driving me to suicide with > his monotune and sticky confections. > > is the same logic used to defend abortion applicable here?  in the > absence of a gun the depressed will resort to rusty coat hangers and > Drano? > > r. crumb suggested that the society would make cyanide pies available > for the terminally despairing.  sort of like tide pods,.  only > crunchy?  take two.  take more. > > I note of late that suicides are not condemned as they were in the > society i grew up in.  we would sympathize with families and shake our > heads in disbelief and hope it was over.  jourdain, williams, > hemingway, cobain, boltzmann, cantor... > > what is up? > > if what the nytimes is saying is.tru > > > > On 2018-06-12 02:08 , Szoke, Ron via Peace-discuss > Wrote: > > > *From: *"Szoke, Ron" > > *Subject: **NYTimes.com : On an Average Day, > 96 Americans Die By Firearms* > *Date: *June 11, 2018 > > From The New York Times: > > On an Average Day, 96 Americans Die By Firearms > > Mass shootings represent just a fraction of the nation’s gun violence. > > https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/10/opinion/editorials/gun-violence-pulse-orlando.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 03:21:00 2018 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 22:21:00 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Chris Hedges interviews David Harvey In-Reply-To: <270CDD55-445D-4BB1-B7A5-49310D6D7E3B@illinois.edu> References: <270CDD55-445D-4BB1-B7A5-49310D6D7E3B@illinois.edu> Message-ID: My understanding of global poverty, based on the important work of Jason Hickel, is that any meaningful decrease in global poverty is attributable solely to the urbanization of China. This is an old article, but this analysis has been recently incorporated into a book: https://www.commondreams.org/views/2013/04/15/truth-about-extreme-global-inequality This is a more recent interview about the book, very clear, 35 minutes: https://thisishell.com/interviews/1006-jason-hickel On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 8:19 PM Brussel, Morton K wrote: > Not quite a coherent story from David Harvey, although absorbing to listen > to him. I suppose one should purhase his book to see if he fills in the > holes of his verbal statements here. E.g., has global poverty not > regressed? Despite increased inequality. Perhaps I’m lacking in > understanding the fundamentals of economics. > > --mkb > > On Jun 11, 2018, at 9:14 AM, David Green via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > Standard Harvey but always informative, especially re China: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hgszeNb8wU > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r-szoke at illinois.edu Tue Jun 12 03:26:25 2018 From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 03:26:25 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] On an Average Day, 96 Americans Die By Firearms In-Reply-To: <76ca3543-198a-df96-d266-69ca7c928d21@pigs.ag> References: <7324C2D1-F510-41E4-BA01-7B4D92B632C2@illinois.edu> <2FE9A829-2C7D-4DFE-B1CC-7852884959CA@illinois.edu> <1528748528862.eeqhcnfunxudgu32gvz4usth@android.mail.163.com> <76ca3543-198a-df96-d266-69ca7c928d21@pigs.ag> Message-ID: <89A83460-B8AC-4766-8A49-8C0FE169D8C2@illinois.edu> "correction: cantor was not a suicide, but perhaps neither were the "suicides" of some wayward Clinton associates.” Perhaps. Possibly. Maybe. Sort of, like, could be. It’s a possibility. Are you making an accusation of murder? If so, say so. If not, stop the cutesy-smartass gibberish & try to say something sensible, if you believe yourself capable of doing so. ~~ Ron Szoke ~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Tue Jun 12 03:42:24 2018 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 22:42:24 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty Message-ID: <0k0av25btkrpku7mcbtok3qc.1528774810898@email.lge.com> Carl and EWJ. Take a chill pill, meditate, levitate, go to church, do whatever you need to do to rein it in. Enough.  Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: C G Estabrook via Peace-discussDate: Mon, Jun 11, 2018 7:54 AMTo: ewj;Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net);Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty "RTFM is used to express frustration at someone who asks questions to which the answers can be easily sought from another source. Also bowdlerized as read the fine manual or read the friendly manual.” [RTFM - Wiktionary https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/RTFM] > On Jun 11, 2018, at 7:39 AM, ewj via Peace-discuss wrote: > > again i am surprised that a tenured law professor at the university of illinois, a lauded warrior for the oppressed and underprivileged, and a consumer of aged mule steaks in high company at Harvard, is unable to extricate himself from an inevitable being mercilessly spammed into apoplexy by a community mail server. > > try... > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > and "R.T.F.M.", as they say. ignorance of the laws of mailman is no excuse. > > > On 2018-06-11 19:25 , Boyle, Francis A Wrote: > > Fine. Would the list owner please remove me from this list or send me instructions to do so. You are welcome to each other. Fab. > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > From: E. Wayne Johnson [mailto:ewj at pigs.ag] > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2018 2:11 AM > To: Estabrook, Carl G ; Boyle, Francis A > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > It really would not be fair to call Prof. Boyle a Deranged Attention Whore. > > Not just because he pursued some highly sensational lost causes. > > Let's reserve "Deranged Attention Whore" for the name of some punk rock outfit. > > One is thus less likely to be accused of name-calling and such. > > Zeal is a a measure of zeal. > > Zeal for a cause is not a measure of truth or the validity of said cause. > > * > Job was smitten from head to toe with festering boyles. > One can only imagine how painful it was. > > > Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > Come on, Francis. Of course I didn’t “make fun of it and them [your] clients.” > > I said that your statement on the right to life of even reprobates was admirable. > > It needed to be extended to other cases of wrongful death. > > > On Jun 10, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss wrote: > > No, I knocked myself out 24/7 trying to save the lives of 4 human beings--3 of whom were Indigent Black Men being tortured to death by Racist Confederate States in the Old South. And Carl is a Sick Twit to make fun of it and Them My Clients. RIPs. Fab. > > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of ewj via Peace-discuss > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 9:33 AM > To: Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss > Cc: Karen Aram > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > > it is interesting that a university professor of law, searching his vocabulary and his desk for something to sling at an opponent, can not come up anything more barbed or interesting than "sick twit", and breaks his arm patting himself on the back for his probono work. blow more trumpets francis. > > Deadpool: His name's not Ajax. It's Francis....F...R... > > > On 2018-06-10 08:10 , Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss Wrote: > > Carl: You really are a Sick Twit! How many human beings have you represented pro bono publico on death row? I can think of at least 4 in this country alone: John Wayne Gacey tortured to death by Governor Jim Edgar. African American Amos King tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Johnny Robinson tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Brian Baldwin fried to death by Alabama. RIPs. > > Francis A. Boyle > Professor of Law > > Francis A. Boyle > Law Building > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > Champaign IL 61820 USA > 217-333-7954 (phone) > 217-244-1478 (fax) > (personal comments only) > > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 6:53 PM > To: Karen Aram > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > > > [The law as devil?] > > MORTIMER [K. Aram] > Peace, cousin Percy. You will make him mad. > GLENDOWER [FAB] > I can call spirits from the vasty deep. > HOTSPUR [CGE] > Why, so can I, or so can any man, > But will they come when you do call for them? > GLENDOWER [FAB] > Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command the devil. > HOTSPUR [CGE] > And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil > By telling truth. Tell truth and shame the devil. > If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither, > And I’ll be sworn I have power to shame him hence. > O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil! > MORTIMER [K. Aram] > Come, come, no more of this unprofitable chat. > > --Henry IV, Part 1 (3.1) > > ### > > > On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Carl, > > Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born. > > It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant . > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ewj at pigs.ag Tue Jun 12 03:45:24 2018 From: ewj at pigs.ag (E. Wayne Johnson) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 11:45:24 +0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] On an Average Day, 96 Americans Die By Firearms In-Reply-To: <89A83460-B8AC-4766-8A49-8C0FE169D8C2@illinois.edu> References: <7324C2D1-F510-41E4-BA01-7B4D92B632C2@illinois.edu> <2FE9A829-2C7D-4DFE-B1CC-7852884959CA@illinois.edu> <1528748528862.eeqhcnfunxudgu32gvz4usth@android.mail.163.com> <76ca3543-198a-df96-d266-69ca7c928d21@pigs.ag> <89A83460-B8AC-4766-8A49-8C0FE169D8C2@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <43bb3bd7-924a-0d5b-893d-28b6a657ff56@pigs.ag> It was an afterthought about the clintonites. I was truly surprised to see that 2 of 3 cases of so-called gun violence are suicides. * An old (87 yr old) friend Tom McKenney from Marion KY pointed out many years ago that the Clintons were rubbing out their insubordinate associates. Tom made a quite strong accusation of murder. I suppose that the American people did not care, because somehow they get what they want from the Clintons. I'd say, yes they did it.  The Clintons killed those who got in their way. Szoke, Ron wrote: > "correction: cantor was not a suicide, but perhaps neither were the > "suicides" of some wayward Clinton associates.” > > Perhaps.  Possibly.  Maybe.  Sort of, like, could be.  It’s > a possibility. > > Are you making an accusation of murder?  If so, say so. > > If not, stop the cutesy-smartass gibberish & try to say something > sensible, if you believe yourself capable of doing so. > > ~~ Ron Szoke > > > ~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brussel at illinois.edu Tue Jun 12 03:58:51 2018 From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 03:58:51 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Chris Hedges interviews David Harvey In-Reply-To: References: <270CDD55-445D-4BB1-B7A5-49310D6D7E3B@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <2926BF90-253C-4318-8A33-4664A1DD2A47@illinois.edu> I guess one would have to know how global poverty is determined/measured. Forget about China’s urbanization, how about Asia or Africa or SE Asia? What are the sources of whomever tries tø measure it? On Jun 11, 2018, at 10:21 PM, David Green > wrote: My understanding of global poverty, based on the important work of Jason Hickel, is that any meaningful decrease in global poverty is attributable solely to the urbanization of China. This is an old article, but this analysis has been recently incorporated into a book: https://www.commondreams.org/views/2013/04/15/truth-about-extreme-global-inequality This is a more recent interview about the book, very clear, 35 minutes: https://thisishell.com/interviews/1006-jason-hickel On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 8:19 PM Brussel, Morton K > wrote: Not quite a coherent story from David Harvey, although absorbing to listen to him. I suppose one should purhase his book to see if he fills in the holes of his verbal statements here. E.g., has global poverty not regressed? Despite increased inequality. Perhaps I’m lacking in understanding the fundamentals of economics. --mkb On Jun 11, 2018, at 9:14 AM, David Green via Peace-discuss > wrote: Standard Harvey but always informative, especially re China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hgszeNb8wU _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r-szoke at illinois.edu Tue Jun 12 04:07:27 2018 From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 04:07:27 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] On an Average Day, 96 Americans Die By Firearms In-Reply-To: <43bb3bd7-924a-0d5b-893d-28b6a657ff56@pigs.ag> References: <7324C2D1-F510-41E4-BA01-7B4D92B632C2@illinois.edu> <2FE9A829-2C7D-4DFE-B1CC-7852884959CA@illinois.edu> <1528748528862.eeqhcnfunxudgu32gvz4usth@android.mail.163.com> <76ca3543-198a-df96-d266-69ca7c928d21@pigs.ag> <89A83460-B8AC-4766-8A49-8C0FE169D8C2@illinois.edu> <43bb3bd7-924a-0d5b-893d-28b6a657ff56@pigs.ag> Message-ID: <6099B21A-A292-404A-AA7F-FF2408019A0B@illinois.edu> Okay, if you actually believe any of that silly-ass stuff, then you should immediately call the police and accuse the Clintons of murder. This will make you liable to prosecution for defamation & make you eligible for a fine & jail term. So, go to it, smartass! — & if you don’t, just admit that you are a contemptable liar, fraud & charlatan. ~~ Ron From ewj at pigs.ag Tue Jun 12 04:15:17 2018 From: ewj at pigs.ag (E. Wayne Johnson) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 12:15:17 +0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] On an Average Day, 96 Americans Die By Firearms In-Reply-To: <6099B21A-A292-404A-AA7F-FF2408019A0B@illinois.edu> References: <7324C2D1-F510-41E4-BA01-7B4D92B632C2@illinois.edu> <2FE9A829-2C7D-4DFE-B1CC-7852884959CA@illinois.edu> <1528748528862.eeqhcnfunxudgu32gvz4usth@android.mail.163.com> <76ca3543-198a-df96-d266-69ca7c928d21@pigs.ag> <89A83460-B8AC-4766-8A49-8C0FE169D8C2@illinois.edu> <43bb3bd7-924a-0d5b-893d-28b6a657ff56@pigs.ag> <6099B21A-A292-404A-AA7F-FF2408019A0B@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <2d73fc53-5944-095f-40d9-8bea59385588@pigs.ag> I have no reason to not believe Tom McKenney. I am quite frankly too busy to bother with the Clintons right now, and have other more interesting pursuits. Let's see what Time and Entropy do to our old friends the Clintons. Szoke, Ron wrote: > Okay, if you actually believe any of that silly-ass stuff, then you should immediately call the police and accuse the Clintons of murder. This will make you liable to prosecution for defamation & make you eligible for a fine & jail term. So, go to it, smartass! — & if you don’t, just admit that you are a contemptable liar, fraud & charlatan. > > ~~ Ron > From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 05:03:44 2018 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 00:03:44 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Chris Hedges interviews David Harvey In-Reply-To: <2926BF90-253C-4318-8A33-4664A1DD2A47@illinois.edu> References: <270CDD55-445D-4BB1-B7A5-49310D6D7E3B@illinois.edu> <2926BF90-253C-4318-8A33-4664A1DD2A47@illinois.edu> Message-ID: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2015/nov/01/global-poverty-is-worse-than-you-think-could-you-live-on-190-a-day Hickel addresses the problematic assumptions of World Bank data. On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 10:58 PM Brussel, Morton K wrote: > I guess one would have to know how global poverty is determined/measured. > Forget about China’s urbanization, how about Asia or Africa or SE Asia? > What are the sources of whomever tries tø measure it? > > On Jun 11, 2018, at 10:21 PM, David Green wrote: > > My understanding of global poverty, based on the important work of Jason > Hickel, is that any meaningful decrease in global poverty is attributable > solely to the urbanization of China. This is an old article, but this > analysis has been recently incorporated into a book: > > > https://www.commondreams.org/views/2013/04/15/truth-about-extreme-global-inequality > > This is a more recent interview about the book, very clear, 35 minutes: > > https://thisishell.com/interviews/1006-jason-hickel > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 8:19 PM Brussel, Morton K > wrote: > >> Not quite a coherent story from David Harvey, although absorbing to >> listen to him. I suppose one should purhase his book to see if he fills in >> the holes of his verbal statements here. E.g., has global poverty not >> regressed? Despite increased inequality. Perhaps I’m lacking in >> understanding the fundamentals of economics. >> >> --mkb >> >> On Jun 11, 2018, at 9:14 AM, David Green via Peace-discuss < >> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: >> >> Standard Harvey but always informative, especially re China: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hgszeNb8wU >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 07:41:37 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 02:41:37 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] On an Average Day, 96 Americans Die By Firearms In-Reply-To: <43bb3bd7-924a-0d5b-893d-28b6a657ff56@pigs.ag> References: <7324C2D1-F510-41E4-BA01-7B4D92B632C2@illinois.edu> <2FE9A829-2C7D-4DFE-B1CC-7852884959CA@illinois.edu> <1528748528862.eeqhcnfunxudgu32gvz4usth@android.mail.163.com> <76ca3543-198a-df96-d266-69ca7c928d21@pigs.ag> <89A83460-B8AC-4766-8A49-8C0FE169D8C2@illinois.edu> <43bb3bd7-924a-0d5b-893d-28b6a657ff56@pigs.ag> Message-ID: <73898B3A-1610-4C2F-BE23-029901A14DD8@gmail.com> From Vince Foster (q.v.) to Seth Rich there have been a number of convenient deaths in the resistible rise of Hillary Clinton. (Inter alia she is supposed to have asked - as a ‘joke' - about a drone strike on Julian Assange: >.) There have even been suggestions that the peculiar Skripal affair is bound up with the Clinton campaign, through Christopher Steele and the ‘dirty dossier.’ (See e.g. >.) In office, of course, Bill Clinton was responsible for the mass murder of the illegal war on Yugoslavia - and for the deaths of thousands from his destruction of the al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant in Sudan >. It was his successor (but one) as president who observed, “Turns out I'm really good at killing people - didn't know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.” Surprisingly, Ron - who usually counsels doubt and uncertainty - seems metaphysically certain that some things in this regard cannot be the case. —CGE > On Jun 11, 2018, at 10:45 PM, E. Wayne Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: > > It was an afterthought about the clintonites. > > I was truly surprised to see that 2 of 3 cases of so-called gun violence are suicides. > > * > > An old (87 yr old) friend Tom McKenney from Marion KY pointed out many years ago that > the Clintons were rubbing out their insubordinate associates. > > Tom made a quite strong accusation of murder. > > I suppose that the American people did not care, > because somehow they get what they want from the Clintons. > > I'd say, yes they did it. The Clintons killed those who got in their way. > > > > Szoke, Ron wrote: >> "correction: cantor was not a suicide, but perhaps neither were the "suicides" of some wayward Clinton associates.” >> >> Perhaps. Possibly. Maybe. Sort of, like, could be. It’s a possibility. >> >> Are you making an accusation of murder? If so, say so. >> >> If not, stop the cutesy-smartass gibberish & try to say something sensible, if you believe yourself capable of doing so. >> >> ~~ Ron Szoke >> >> >> ~~ > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Tue Jun 12 07:49:55 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 02:49:55 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty In-Reply-To: <0k0av25btkrpku7mcbtok3qc.1528774810898@email.lge.com> References: <0k0av25btkrpku7mcbtok3qc.1528774810898@email.lge.com> Message-ID: Your excellent advice (but levitate?) is perhaps applicable as well to other participants in the debate below. You would however agree, I’m sure, that there are serious matters at issue. The debate seems to me important, even if there are certain lapses in tone. —CGE > On Jun 11, 2018, at 10:42 PM, bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Carl and EWJ. Take a chill pill, meditate, levitate, go to church, do whatever you need to do to rein it in. Enough. > > Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > ------ Original message------ > From: C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2018 7:54 AM > To: ewj; > Cc: Peace-discuss List (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net); > Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Again st the Death Penalty > > "RTFM is used to express frustration at someone who asks questions to which the answers can be easily sought from another source. Also bowdlerized as read the fine manual or read the friendly manual.” [RTFM - Wiktionary https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/RTFM > ] > > > > On Jun 11, 2018, at 7:39 AM, ewj via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > > > again i am surprised that a tenured law professor at the university of illinois, a lauded warrior for the oppressed and underprivileged, and a consumer of aged mule steaks in high company at Harvard, is unable to extricate himself from an inevitable being mercilessly spammed into apoplexy by a community mail server. > > > > try... > > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > > > and "R.T.F.M.", as they say. ignorance of the laws of mailman is no excuse. > > > > > > On > 2018-06-11 19 > :25 , Boyle, Francis A Wrote: > > > > Fine. Would the list owner please remove me from this list or send me instructions to do so. You are welcome to each other. Fab. > > > > Francis A. Boyle > > Law Building > > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > > Champaign IL 61820 USA > > > 217-333-7954 > (phone) > > > 217-244-1478 > (fax) > > (personal comments only) > > > > From: E. Wayne Johnson [mailto > :ewj at pigs.ag > ] > > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2018 2:11 AM > > To: Estabrook, Carl G > ; Boyle, Francis A > > > Cc: Peace-discuss List > (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > > > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] FW: [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > > > It really would not be fair to call Prof. Boyle a Deranged Attention Whore. > > > > Not just because he pursued some highly sensational lost causes. > > > > Let's reserve "Deranged Attention Whore" for the name of some punk rock outfit. > > > > One is thus less likely to be accused of name-calling and such. > > > > Zeal is a a measure of zeal. > > > > Zeal for a cause is not a measure of truth or the validity of said cause. > > > > * > > Job was smitten from head to toe with festering boyles. > > One can only imagine how painful it was. > > > > > > Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Come on, Francis. Of course I didn’t “make fun of it and them [your] clients.” > > > > I said that your statement on the right to life of even reprobates was admirable. > > > > It needed to be extended to other cases of wrongful death. > > > > > > On Jun 10, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > > > No, I knocked myself out 24/7 trying to save the lives of 4 human beings--3 of whom were Indigent Black Men being tortured to death by Racist Confederate States in the Old South. And Carl is a Sick Twit to make fun of it and Them My Clients. RIPs. Fab. > > > > > > Francis A. Boyle > > Law Building > > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > > Champaign IL 61820 USA > > > 217-333-7954 > (phone) > > > 217-244-1478 > (fax) > > (personal comments only) > > > > > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto > :peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net > ] On Behalf Of ewj via Peace-discuss > > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 9:33 AM > > To: Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss > > > Cc: Karen Aram > > > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > > > > > it is interesting that a university professor of law, searching his vocabulary and his desk for something to sling at an opponent, can not come up anything more barbed or interesting than "sick twit", and breaks his arm patting himself on the back for his probono work. blow more trumpets francis. > > > > Deadpool: His name's not Ajax. It's Francis....F...R... > > > > > > On > 2018-06-10 08 > :10 , Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss Wrote: > > > > Carl: You really are a Sick Twit! How many human beings have you represented pro bono publico on death row? I can think of at least 4 in this country alone: John Wayne Gacey tortured to death by Governor Jim Edgar. African American Amos King tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Johnny Robinson tortured to death by Jebbie Bush in Florida. African American Brian Baldwin fried to death by Alabama. RIPs. > > > > Francis A. Boyle > > Professor of Law > > > > Francis A. Boyle > > Law Building > > 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. > > Champaign IL 61820 USA > > > 217-333-7954 > (phone) > > > 217-244-1478 > (fax) > > (personal comments only) > > > > > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto > :peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net > ] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2018 6:53 PM > > To: Karen Aram > > > Cc: Peace-discuss List > (peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net) > > > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [nppryan] FW: Teaching Against the Death Penalty > > > > > > > > [The law as devil?] > > > > MORTIMER [K. Aram] > > Peace, cousin Percy. You will make him mad. > > GLENDOWER [FAB] > > I can call spirits from the vasty deep. > > HOTSPUR [CGE] > > Why, so can I, or so can any man, > > But will they come when you do call for them? > > GLENDOWER [FAB] > > Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command the devil. > > HOTSPUR [CGE] > > And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil > > By telling truth. Tell truth and shame the devil. > > If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither, > > And I’ll be sworn I have power to shame him hence. > > O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil! > > MORTIMER [K. Aram] > > Come, come, no more of this unprofitable chat. > > > > --Henry IV, Part 1 (3.1) > > > > ### > > > > > > On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > > > Carl, > > > > Your insistence on provoking anger by everyone and anyone against the organizations you purport to represent, is the inconsistency. Unlike the brain dead out there, with degrees after their names, who are so concerned with preserving the lives of “fetuses”, while caring nothing for the lives of children we are slaughtering daily, or those who are so concerned with the lives of women, their opportunities for advancement in their careers, while ignoring those we are killing daily elsewhere in the world, you do care about the lives of the already born. > > > > It’s unfortunate you choose to alienate and prevent any possibility of uniting people, or groups to prevent such wonton deaths, with your personal views that are irrelevant . > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Peace-discuss mailing list > > From galliher at illinois.edu Tue Jun 12 20:11:34 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 15:11:34 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] AWARE on the Air, 2018 June 12 Message-ID: <8314EAC9-C081-4A21-8396-FD254DCA28C4@illinois.edu> Good evening and welcome to AWARE on the Air, presented by members and friends of AWARE, the “anti-war anti-racism effort,” a local Champaign-Urbana peace group. I’m Carl Estabrook. My guest is our favorite Republican, Ed Mandel. We are recording this at noon on Tuesday, June 12, in the studios of Urbana Public Television. Our subject is the wars the US government is waging around the world, and the racism we display to those we’re killing, in accord with the Latin proverb, 'Proprium humani ingenii est odisse quem laeseris' - “It’s human nature to hate those you have injured.” WHILE THE PRESIDENT IS TALKING PEACE IN SINGAPORE WITH THE LEADER OF NORTH KOREA, the US is making war in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Pakistan, Somalia, Syria, & Yemen - principally to control the flow of oil out of the Mideast and North Africa, which the US uses as a weapon against its economic rivals from Germany to China. Thousands of U.S. troops are killing people in these countries, although most Americans are barely aware of it. ~ More than a quarter of a million US troops are stationed in a thousand US bases on foreign soil, most of them ringing Russia and China. ~ The 70,000-members of the U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ are active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. As the rest of the world recognizes - but Americans don’t - they are nothing less than American death squads. The rest of the world recognizes that the US today is what ML King called it long ago, the “greatest purveyor of violence in the world today” - an international criminal surpassing all others. But most Americans don’t know that, protected as they are by government and media propaganda. What we do here at AWARE ON THE AIR is talk about the unmentionable US government killing around the world to encourage our fellow citizens to oppose it. ==========MIDEAST================================ [SYRIA] Militants backed by U.S. forces plan to stage chemical attack MOSCOW, June 11 (Xinhua) -- Militants of the so-called "Free Syrian Army" with the assistance of U.S. military special operations forces are mulling a fake chemical attack in Syria, the Russian military said Monday. The intelligence was confirmed by three independent channels in Syria, said THE Russian Defense Ministry The Free Syrian Army militants have brought chlorine cylinders to a settlement in the Syrian province of Deir al-Zour to fake a chemical attack by the Syrian government troops against civilians, A video of the staged attack, after it is disseminated in the western media, will serve as a new pretext for the U.S.-led coalition to strike Syrian targets and justify an offensive by militants against Syrian government forces on the eastern bank of the Euphrates River The ministry said it is intolerable to use such a provocation to destabilize Syria... The United States, along with Britain and France, launched joint airstrikes on military targets in Syria TWO MONTHS AGO, in response to what they said was the Syrian military's use of chemical weapons in Douma, a then rebel-held town ... near the Syrian capital of Damascus on April 7. However, Russia said that no traces of the chemical attack had been found and that the event was staged. THERE ARE NOW REPORTS THAT THESE US-BACKED JIHADISTS ARE ABOUT TO TRY IT AGAIN. ======================== [YEMEN] Hodeida [ho-DAY-da], Yemen’s major port which receives 80% of the country’s food imports, is threatened with imminent military attack by the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia. The UAE gave aid groups 3 days to leave Hodeida before the threatened launch of this operation, putting 250,000 people under the immediate threat of being killed, and millions more at risk of starving to death. EVEN A recent Washington Post editorial opposed such a Saudi-UAE assault, warning that the world’s worst humanitarian crisis could get even worse. The paper argued that the U.S., which supplies the Saudi-UAE alliance with arms, targeting intelligence, refueling of Saudi-UAE bombers during their bombing runs, and diplomatic protection at the UN, should use its leverage to stop this “reckless venture.” The Pentagon has been deeply dishonest with Congress and the American people about the depth of the U.S. role in enabling this catastrophic war, which has never been authorized by Congress, in direct violation of the War Powers Clause of the Constitution and of the War Powers Resolution of 1973. The New York Times reported that U.S. Army Special Forces have been directly involved in anti-Houthi military operations, blatantly contradicting Pentagon claims that the U.S. is "not directly involved.” There’s no question that Washington could stop the catastrophic UAE assault on Hodeida, if Washington saw it as a priority to do so. As Oxfam America notes, if the U.S. fails to stop the attack, "it will own the consequences." Please urge your Representative and Senators to join CONGRESSIONAL REPRESENTAIVES Mark Pocan [D-WI], Justin Amash [R-MI], Ro Khanna [D-CA], Thomas Massie [R-KY], Barbara Lee [D-CA], Walter Jones [R-NC], and Ted Lieu [D-CA] in demanding that Defense Secretary James Mattis act to stop the catastrophic Saudi-UAE assault on Hodeida by signing A petition AT change.org OR ‘JUST FOREIGN POLICY.’ =============ASIA========================== Peace is at hand - AND IT’S IN PART DUE TO NBA STAR Dennis Rodman. WHITE HOUSE SPOKESWOMAN HUCKABEE CALLED HIM TO THANK HIM FOR PUBLICIZING THE MATTER. The deal REACHED BY PRES. TRUMP & NK LEADER KIM JONG UN is essentially the ‘double freeze” proposed by China and Russia in the UN and elsewhere... The opposition to it comes from the Democrats (HRC campaign) and the neocons. “Why Do Democrats Want to Sabotage North Korea Talks?” {by Gary Leupp, Professor of History at Tufts University} Amazing how partisan politics shape this country’s foreign policy. Seven Democratic senators have written the president urging that any agreement signed with North Korea must be permanent; must be subject to “anywhere, anytime” inspections of all nuclear-related sites and facilities; and must include the dismantling and elimination of all of the regime’s ballistic missiles and programs. (One thinks of Mike Pompeo’s demands on Iran to renegotiate the Iran Deal by making infinite concessions.) It is a tit-for-tat for the solid Republican opposition to the JCPOA in 2015. Five of the seven senators (Durbin, Warner, Feinstein, Leahy, and Brown) had voted for the Iran agreement while two (Schumer and Menendez) had been among a mere four Democrats to (expressing devotion to Netanyahu) vote against. So this is a display of Democratic unity towards the end, not of bringing permanent peace to the Korean peninsula, but to make it as difficult as possible for an unpopular beleaguered president to score a diplomatic triumph (which could shift momentum to the Republicans in the interim election). There are Democrats (and some Republicans alike) praying for failure in Singapore, worried, they imply, about an ill-prepared impetuous commander-in-chief giving up the family jewels over bulgogi and kimchee. At the same time due to calculation (Bolton) or dumbness (Pence) top Trump administration officials (plus his personal lawyer Giuliani) have worked to sabotage the summit by deliberately insulting Kim Jung-un and the DPRK in the weeks leading up to it. The big picture is that the United States under Trump abruptly entered a period of aggressive exceptionalism involving unilateral withdrawal from treaties; provocation of trade wars; broadcast of insults against close allies; harsh measures against undocumented immigrants and the imposition of discriminatory rules on Muslim entry into the U.S.; and a general tendency to reflect the sentiments of a benighted political base. This has alienated Europe in general, as well as Mexico and Canada, the U.S.’s top two trading partners. Meanwhile, it has positively alarmed many in the (truncated) State Department and in the U.S. polity as a whole. The “mainstream media” incessantly attacks Trump’s “foreign policy.” That is, the U.S. is in a situation we might call naiyu gaikan (troubles within and without). This is how Japanese historians describe Japan in the early 19th century, when the regime of the shogun faced both internal dissent and weakness and challenges in foreign relations. In part the latter resulted from a policy of what we might call isolationism. This period resulted in the toppling of the regime. The U.S.’s external troubles now involve the fraying of alliances; Emmanuel Macron has actually suggested that G-7 could become G-6. The internal troubles include the Russia investigation, Trump’s (other) legal problems and the prospect of impeachment, massive disillusionment of youth by the very nature of the capitalist system, widespread if not universal contempt for Trump among women due to his manifest misogyny, widespread indignation among African-Americans at Trump’s obvious racism, widespread opposition from Mexican-Americans and other Hispanics due to Trump’s crazy wall plan and related issues, and not least the president’s inability as a manager to put together a disciplined team. Part of the problem is that the chaos which is Trump’s mind is reflected in the chaos in the White House West Wing. In this context, seven Democratic senators—reflecting both external and internal troubles—address the president demanding that any deal he makes with Kim meet (unrealistic) specifications for their approval. They see the world they’ve known toppling around them due to Trunp’s iconoclasm, and they want to do some smashing too. And because they feel no responsibility to the planet, but merely to their own re-elections, they abet the national decline relative to the world. Practically the only good thing the world sees in Trump is his unexpected openness to talks with North Korea, The prospect of a successful summit delights most people, including the leaders of China, South Korea, and Russia. That Feinstein & Co. should already be throwing cold water on any results shows how out of touch they are with the world, and how much they overestimate the extent of U.S. power. There seems to be a bipartisan embrace of idiocy. All the congressional bickering and the media’s incessant harping on Trump (to the exclusion of attention to matters such as war in Yemen, Italian elections, mass protests against Macron’s policies in France, horrible events in Gaza, Amnesty International’s report on the bombing of Raqqa, etc.) are a cacophony of sounds as pathetic as the strains of the Titanic ensemble as the ship went down. You hear in those sounds two (bipartisan) choruses of discordant voices that cumulatively tell the world, “Yes, we’re sinking. But we don’t know it, or we don’t care, and if it happens we’ll take others down.” There is no principle or decency but rather sheer opportunism. This could lead to either to an apocalypse or to ongoing imperial decay. One must hope for the latter. {Discussion follows} From galliher at illinois.edu Wed Jun 13 12:49:46 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 07:49:46 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Singapore & Illinois' 11th Congressional district Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Wed Jun 13 14:58:36 2018 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 09:58:36 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Singapore & Illinois' 11th Congressional district Message-ID: <50nds3853vp1r61k9tbb1q5e.1528899784756@email.lge.com> How about no incumbent need be voTed for?  Some of us independents, anarchists, DemExit, libertarians, socialists, Sandinistas,  progressives, near Left, far left, far Right, far Out and/or whatever we or the Owners call ourselves in this moment in time...see nothing but hyper-local voting (school, city, county, library boards) to be  useful or possibly trustworthy.  Sure, register, vote. It is important. Go to the polls with your eyes and ears open to pay attention to the level of Cheat. Was it easy or difficult to register? Is there same-day or online registration in your state? May felons vote?  Are absentee ballots counted? What type of ID does it take to register and to claim a ballot at the polls? Are those IDs easy or difficult for the working poor to obtain? Is there early voting and if so, how many days and are there nights & weekends, particularly Sunday, for the poor and the car-less? On voting day: are there enough polling places? Do they open and close at the correct time? Are the election judges representative of the diversity of the ward? Is there electioneering or flat-out lying about the day of election? Look at the ballot. How are candidates listed in each race? Alphabetically, by who turned in their petition first, or by which is the preferred Party candidate? Which races have only one choice? Why would that be? Make a note of the judges' names for later observation of possible corruption. What type of machines or ballots are used and who owns the companies who make them? Dig deeper into shareholders and past owners/scandals behind the machines in previous years.  After the election, did the exit poll numbers match the announced winner? If the numbers did not match, was a recount taken? Was the recount fair? Did every candidate listed first on the ballot win? Did every Party-preferred candidate win? Did the candidates with Super-PAC s or dark money win, and which Big Donor-Owners bought those elections? What votes would those Donor-Owners expect to see in the next year? Will we see that happen? Did a single progressive, anti- war, Medicare 4 All, Green, Libertarian or People's populist candidate get enough votes to scare the establishment or even win?  That is why I go to the polls. Call me pessimistic, yet I do not expect fair elections with genuine outcomes in the Heart of the Empire responsible for regime change all over the world. It is only in our hearts we wish it were so. Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discussDate: Wed, Jun 13, 2018 8:06 AMTo: peace-discuss;Cc: Peace;Subject:[Peace-discuss] Singapore & Illinois' 11th Congressional district 'Russiagate' and Korea mean that Democrats shouldn't be given control of Congress in the fall elections - even if it means voting for Republicans. —CGE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Wed Jun 13 15:47:15 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 10:47:15 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Singapore & Illinois' 11th Congressional district In-Reply-To: <50nds3853vp1r61k9tbb1q5e.1528899784756@email.lge.com> References: <50nds3853vp1r61k9tbb1q5e.1528899784756@email.lge.com> Message-ID: What you say is good and important. But at the moment the Democrats are not ‘progressive’ but rather the party of Russiagate and opposition to the Singapore summit - that is to say, the party of war provocations vs. Russia and China. And abstention in the fall election probably helps the Democrats to reclaim the House. I think that should be prevented, and unfortunately the only way to do that is to elect Republicans. Asked how progressives should vote, Noam Chomsky once said, “I think they should spend five or ten minutes on it. Seeing if there’s a point in taking part in the carefully orchestrated electoral extravaganza. And my own judgment, for what it’s worth, is, yes, there’s a point to taking a part.” —CGE > On Jun 13, 2018, at 9:58 AM, bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss wrote: > > How about no incumbent need be voTed for? > > Some of us independents, anarchists, DemExit, libertarians, socialists, Sandinistas, progressives, near Left, far left, far Right, far Out and/or whatever we or the Owners call ourselves in this moment in time...see nothing but hyper-local voting (school, city, county, library boards) to be useful or possibly trustworthy. > > Sure, register, vote. It is important. Go to the polls with your eyes and ears open to pay attention to the level of Cheat. Was it easy or difficult to register? Is there same-day or online registration in your state? May felons vote? Are absentee ballots counted? What type of ID does it take to register and to claim a ballot at the polls? Are those IDs easy or difficult for the working poor to obtain? Is there early voting and if so, how many days and a re there nights & weekends, particularly Sunday, for the poor and the car-less? > > On voting day: are there enough polling places? Do they open and close at the correct time? Are the election judges representative of the diversity of the ward? Is there electioneering or flat-out lying about the day of election? Look at the ballot. How are candidates listed in each race? Alphabetically, by who turned in their petition first, or by which is the preferred Party candidate? Which races have only one choice? Why would that be? Make a note of the judges' names for later observation of possible corruption. What type of machines or ballots are used and who owns the companies who make them? Dig deeper into shareholders and past owners/scandals behind the machines in previous years. > > After the election, did the exit poll numbers match the announced winner? If the numbers did not match, was a recount taken? Was the recount fair? Did every candidate listed first on the ballot win? Did every Party-preferred candidate win? Did the candidates with Super-PAC s or dark money win, and which Big Donor-Owners bought those elections? What votes would those Donor-Owners expect to see in the next year? Will we see that happen? Did a single progressive, anti- war, Medicare 4 All, Green, Libertarian or People's populist candidate get enough votes to scare the establishment or even win? > > That is why I go to the polls. Call me pessimistic, yet I do not expect fair elections with genuine outcomes in the Heart of the Empire responsible for regime change all over the world. It is only in our hearts we wish it were so. > > Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > ------ Original message------ > From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2018 8:06 AM > To: peace-discuss; > Cc: Peace; > Subject:[Peace-discuss] Singapore & Illinois' 11th Congressional district > > ; > > 'Russiagate' and Korea mean that Democrats shouldn't be given control of Congress in the fall elections - even if it means voting for Republicans. > > —CGE > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From galliher at illinois.edu Wed Jun 13 20:13:48 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 15:13:48 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Minutes from Sunday's AWARE meeting Message-ID: AWARE Meeting, 5-6pm, Sunday, June 10, 2018 =================================== Hammerhead Coffee, University & Wright, Champaign A sparsely-attended regular meeting of the 'Anti-War, Anti-Racism Effort of Champaign-Urbana' considered the various outlets for the publication of anti-war concerns in C-U this summer: PRESS ~ ‘The Champaign-Urbana News-Gazette’ - under new editors - runs letters (250 words), occasional guest columns (700 words), and ‘Sunday Extras’ (500 words) on war topics. Despite its frequently objectionable editorials, the N-G maintains a letters column where differing political opinions are juxtaposed. ~ ’Smile Politely’ runs articles, blog posts, and often comments of interest to the anti-war movement. A ’News from Neptune’ column - from the UPTV show - appears occasionally. ~ ‘The Daily Illini’ publishes letters from AWAREists with a UIUC connection. INTERNET ~ There is a Facebook page ‘AWARE of Champaign Urbana Illinois’ at . ~ AWARE also has two email lists, 'peace-discuss' and ' and 'peace' . ~ ‘CounterPunch’ is a leading political website, publishing a number of articles each day, and a magazine, published six times per year. The editor-in-chief is a FOA (Friend of AWARE) and publishes material from AWAREists - including Doctor Know (J. B. Nicholson), research director for 'AWARE on the Air.' DEMONSTRATIONS ~ AWARE’s regular demonstrations, 2-4pm on the first Saturday of the month, go back 15 years - a tradition once called ‘The Main Event’ (from its location at Main & Neil Streets in downtown Champaign). ~ The Urbana Farmers’ Market hosts an AWARE table with anti-war flyers, books, buttons and bumper stickers on various Saturdays through the summer. ~ AWARE has participated in demonstrations sponsored by other groups, notably the Fourth of July parade, for which AWARE in the past has prepared notable floats (when we were younger...) TELEVISION ~ ‘AWARE on the Air’ is a weekly hour of anti-war discussion, recorded at noon on Tuesdays at the studios of Urbana Public Television. It’s cable-cast on UPTV, but it seems to find most of its viewers on YouTube. RADIO ~ The audio of ‘AWARE on the Air’ is carried by WRFU-LP (104.5 FM, ‘Radio Free Urbana’), which also features other programs of interest to AWAREists and their audience, notably ‘The History Hour,’ ’The Illinois World Labor Hour,’ and ‘News from Neptune.’ OTHER LOCAL POLITICAL GROUPS ~ AWARE joins other anti-war/anti-racism groups in C-U for particular demonstrations. Upcoming is an ‘ICE Out of CU!’ rally at Drury Inn Hotel in Champaign, on Saturday 23 June at 11 am. ### From bjornsona at ameritech.net Wed Jun 13 21:57:33 2018 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 16:57:33 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Sunday's AWARE meeting Message-ID: Hi Carl. Will AWARE be meeting this Sunday on Father's Day? Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discussDate: Wed, Jun 13, 2018 3:14 PMTo: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss;Cc: peace;Subject:[Peace-discuss] Minutes from Sunday's AWARE meeting AWARE Meeting, 5-6pm, Sunday, June 10, 2018 =================================== Hammerhead Coffee, University & Wright, Champaign A sparsely-attended regular meeting of the 'Anti-War, Anti-Racism Effort of Champaign-Urbana' considered the various outlets for the publication of anti-war concerns in C-U this summer: PRESS ~ ‘The Champaign-Urbana News-Gazette’ - under new editors - runs letters (250 words), occasional guest columns (700 words), and ‘Sunday Extras’ (500 words) on war topics. Despite its frequently objectionable editorials, the N-G maintains a letters column where differing political opinions are juxtaposed. ~ ’Smile Politely’ runs articles, blog posts, and often comments of interest to the anti-war movement. A ’News from Neptune’ column - from the UPTV show - appears occasionally. ~ ‘The Daily Illini’ publishes letters from AWAREists with a UIUC connection. INTERNET ~ There is a Facebook page ‘AWARE of Champaign Urbana Illinois’ at . ~ AWARE also has two email lists, 'peace-discuss' and ' and 'peace' . ~ ‘CounterPunch’ is a leading political website, publishing a number of articles each day, and a magazine, published six times per year. The editor-in-chief is a FOA (Friend of AWARE) and publishes material from AWAREists - including Doctor Know (J. B. Nicholson), research director for 'AWARE on the Air.' DEMONSTRATIONS ~ AWARE’s regular demonstrations, 2-4pm on the first Saturday of the month, go back 15 years - a tradition once called ‘The Main Event’ (from its location at Main & Neil Streets in downtown Champaign). ~ The Urbana Farmers’ Market hosts an AWARE table with anti-war flyers, books, buttons and bumper stickers on various Saturdays through the summer. ~ AWARE has participated in demonstrations sponsored by other groups, notably the Fourth of July parade, for which AWARE in the past has prepared notable floats (when we were younger...) TELEVISION ~ ‘AWARE on the Air’ is a weekly hour of anti-war discussion, recorded at noon on Tuesdays at the studios of Urbana Public Television. It’s cable-cast on UPTV, but it seems to find most of its viewers on YouTube. RADIO ~ The audio of ‘AWARE on the Air’ is carried by WRFU-LP (104.5 FM, ‘Radio Free Urbana’), which also features other programs of interest to AWAREists and their audience, notably ‘The History Hour,’ ’The Illinois World Labor Hour,’ and ‘News from Neptune.’ OTHER LOCAL POLITICAL GROUPS ~ AWARE joins other anti-war/anti-racism groups in C-U for particular demonstrations. Upcoming is an ‘ICE Out of CU!’ rally at Drury Inn Hotel in Champaign, on Saturday 23 June at 11 am. ### _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 23:03:53 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 18:03:53 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Sunday's AWARE meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9133B4A3-F241-471C-A5CA-41747EB3D6D3@gmail.com> Yes - 5-6pm. (The coffee shop closes at 6pm - so meetings don’t drag on…) > On Jun 13, 2018, at 4:57 PM, bjornsona--- via Peace wrote: > > Hi Carl. Will AWARE be meeting this Sunday on Father's Day? > > Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > ------ Original message------ > From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2018 3:14 PM > To: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss; > Cc: peace; > Subject:[Peace-discuss] Minutes from Sunday's AWARE meeting > > AWARE Meeting, 5-6pm, Sunday, June 10, 2018 > =================================== > Hammerhead Coffee, University & Wright, Champaign... From loisiyoga at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 22:43:49 2018 From: loisiyoga at gmail.com (Lois Steinberg) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 04:13:49 +0530 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Sunday's AWARE meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Historical correction _ The regular demonstrations started shortly after 9/11 when Susan Parenti came up with LAW, Ladies Against War (men were welcome). We dressed up and protested at noon (I forgot which day) in front of the Urbana Free Library. On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 3:27 AM, bjornsona--- via Peace < peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > Hi Carl. Will AWARE be meeting this Sunday on Father's Day? > > *Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone* > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss > *Date: *Wed, Jun 13, 2018 3:14 PM > *To: *Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss; > *Cc: *peace; > *Subject:*[Peace-discuss] Minutes from Sunday's AWARE meeting > > AWARE Meeting, 5-6pm, Sunday, June 10, 2018 > =================================== > Hammerhead Coffee, University & Wright, Champaign > > A sparsely-attended regular meeting of the 'Anti-War, Anti-Racism Effort of Champaign-Urbana' considered the various outlets for the publication of anti-war concerns in C-U this summer: > > PRESS > ~ ‘The Champaign-Urbana News-Gazette’ - under new editors - runs letters (250 words), occasional guest columns (700 words), and ‘Sunday Extras’ (500 words) on war topics. Despite its frequently objectionable editorials, the N-G maintains a letters column where differing political opinions are juxtaposed. > ~ ’Smile Politely’ runs articles, blog posts, and often comments of interest to the anti-war movement. A ’News from Neptune’ column - from the UPTV show - appears occasionally. > ~ ‘The Daily Illini’ publishes letters from AWAREists with a UIUC connection. > > INTERNET > ~ There is a Facebook page ‘AWARE of Champaign Urbana Illinois’ at . > ~ AWARE also has two email lists, 'peace-discuss' and ' and 'peace' . > ~ ‘CounterPunch’ is a leading political website, publishing a number of articles each day, and a magazine, published six times per year. The editor-in-chief is a FOA (Friend of AWARE) and publishes material from AWAREists - including Doctor Know (J. B. Nicholson), research director for 'AWARE on the Air.' > > DEMONSTRATIONS > ~ AWARE’s regular demonstrations, 2-4pm on the first Saturday of the month, go back 15 years - a tradition once called ‘The Main Event’ (from its location at Main & Neil Streets in downtown Champaign). > ~ The Urbana Farmers’ Market hosts an AWARE table with anti-war flyers, books, buttons and bumper stickers on various Saturdays through the summer. > ~ AWARE has participated in demonstrations sponsored by other groups, notably the Fourth of July parade, for which AWARE in the past has prepared notable floats (when we were younger...) > > TELEVISION > ~ ‘AWARE on the Air’ is a weekly hour of anti-war discussion, recorded at noon on Tuesdays at the studios of Urbana Public Television. It’s cable-cast on UPTV, but it seems to find most of its viewers on YouTube. > > RADIO > ~ The audio of ‘AWARE on the Air’ is carried by WRFU-LP (104.5 FM, ‘Radio Free Urbana’), which also features other programs of interest to AWAREists and their audience, notably ‘The History Hour,’ ’The Illinois World Labor Hour,’ and ‘News from Neptune.’ > > OTHER LOCAL POLITICAL GROUPS > ~ AWARE joins other anti-war/anti-racism groups in C-U for particular demonstrations. Upcoming is an ‘ICE Out of CU!’ rally at Drury Inn Hotel in Champaign, on Saturday 23 June at 11 am. > > ### > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.nethttps://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 00:04:08 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 19:04:08 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Sunday's AWARE meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <316B188E-5D96-4B07-BD83-C1C78CF23A73@gmail.com> Hi, Lois. Susan and her colleagues were of course vital to the formation of AWARE, all those years ago. We would be delighted to have them back at the demonstrations she started - informing the local community of the present US war crimes. Regards, CGE > On Jun 13, 2018, at 5:43 PM, Lois Steinberg via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Historical correction _ The regular demonstrations started shortly after 9/11 when Susan Parenti came up with LAW, Ladies Against War (men were welcome). We dressed up and protested at noon (I forgot which day) in front of the Urbana Free Library. > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 3:27 AM, bjornsona--- via Peace wrote: > Hi Carl. Will AWARE be meeting this Sunday on Father's Day? > > Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > ------ Original message------ > From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2018 3:14 PM > To: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss; > Cc: peace; > Subject:[Peace-discuss] Minutes from Sunday's AWARE meeting > > AWARE Meeting, 5-6pm, Sunday, June 10, 2018 > ============================== > ===== > Hammerhead Coffee, University & Wright, Champaign > > A sparsely-attended regular meeting of the 'Anti-War, Anti-Racism Effort of Champaign-Urbana' considered the various outlets for the publication of anti-war concerns in C-U this summer: > > PRESS > ~ ‘The Champaign-Urbana News-Gazette’ - under new editors - runs letters (250 words), occasional guest columns (700 words), and ‘Sunday Extras’ (500 words) on war topics. Despite its frequently objectionable editorials, the N-G maintains a letters column where differing political opinions are juxtaposed. > ~ ’Smile Politely’ runs articles, blog posts, and often comments of interest to the anti-war movement. A ’News from Neptune’ column - from the UPTV show - appears occasionally. > ~ ‘The Daily Illini’ publishes letters from AWAREists with a UIUC connection. > > INTERNET > ~ There is a Facebook page ‘AWARE of Champaign Urbana Illinois’ at > . > ~ AWARE also has two email lists, 'peace-discuss' > and ' and 'peace' > . > ~ ‘CounterPunch’ is a leading political website, publishing a number of articles each day, and a magazine, published six times per year. The editor-in-chief is a FOA (Friend of AWARE) and publishes material from AWAREists - including Doctor Know (J. B. Nicholson), research director for 'AWARE on the Air.' > > DEMONSTRATIONS > ~ AWARE’s regular demonstrations, 2-4pm on the first Saturday of the month, go back 15 years - a tradition once called ‘The Main Event’ (from its location at Main & Neil Streets in downtown Champaign). > ~ The Urbana Farmers’ Market hosts an AWARE table with anti-war flyers, books, buttons and bumper stickers on various Saturdays through the summer. > ~ AWARE has participated in demonstrations sponsored by other groups, notably the Fourth of July parade, for which AWARE in the past has prepared notable floats (when we were younger...) > > TELEVISION > ~ ‘AWARE on the Air’ is a weekly hour of anti-war discussion, recorded at noon on Tuesdays at the studios of Urbana Public Television. It’s cable-cast on UPTV, but it seems to find most of its viewers on YouTube. > > RADIO > ~ The audio of ‘AWARE on the Air’ is carried by WRFU-LP (104.5 FM, ‘Radio Free Urbana’), which also features other programs of interest to AWAREists and their audience, notably ‘The History Hour,’ ’The Illinois World Labor Hour,’ and ‘News from Neptune.’ > > OTHER LOCAL POLITICAL GROUPS > ~ AWARE joins other anti-war/anti-racism groups in C-U for particular demonstrations. Upcoming is an ‘ICE Out of CU!’ rally at Drury Inn Hotel in Champaign, on Saturday 23 June at 11 am. > > ### > ______________________________ > _________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana. > net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From galliher at illinois.edu Thu Jun 14 00:07:31 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 19:07:31 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Sunday's AWARE meeting In-Reply-To: <316B188E-5D96-4B07-BD83-C1C78CF23A73@gmail.com> References: <316B188E-5D96-4B07-BD83-C1C78CF23A73@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51FC3619-1CCA-4080-924B-E96373C3ED54@illinois.edu> Here’s the sort of thing we’re distributing at demonstrations now: AMERICANS ARE AGAINST U.S. WAR-MAKING DEMAND AN END TO U.S. KILLING IN OUR NAME Obama and Trump were both elected as anti-war candidates In office, both sent more U.S. troops to Afghanistan to increase the killing ~ The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan. Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most Americans don’t know that. In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in office he expanded the wars he inherited and vastly increased the war provocations against Russia and China; his drone assassinations were rightly called “the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times.” President Trump, who promised caution and non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same things himself. What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see the killing as justified; they had to agree, in order to get elected. But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars. U.S. presidents have killed more than 20 million people in wars around the world since World War II. That war left the U.S. elite in an unprecedented position of world economic dominance. U.S. wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have had the purpose of “maintaining the disparity,” as U.S. diplomat George Kennan wrote in 1948. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they haven’t profited from them. Most Americans are not aware of how much of the world is appalled at what the U.S. government has done in our lifetimes. It is a triumph of the American system of propaganda and intellectual control - the most effective in history - that Americans are able to ignore it. For many years the U.S. has attempted to exercise military control over the Mideast and its energy resources. The U.S. doesn’t need oil from the Mideast, but Mideast gas and oil are needed by America’s economic competitors in Europe and Asia, and so control over them gives the U.S. a major advantage over China, Germany, and other countries - a chokehold which benefits only the American one percent. In 2003 the U.S. illegally invaded Iraq - and killed perhaps a million people - and now has thousands of troops and mercenaries throughout the Mideast. The U.S. government says that we’re fighting terrorism, but we are in fact creating terrorists in response to our invasions, bombing campaigns, and drone assassinations, which have killed more than 5,000 people, including U.S. citizens and hundreds of children. AWARE, the ‘Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort’ of Champaign-Urbana, joins other anti-war groups in the United States and around the world to call upon President Trump to ~ (1) establish a foreign policy based on diplomacy, international law, and human rights; ~ (2) end U.S. wars in the Mideast and war provocations against Russia (in Eastern Europe) and China (in the South China Sea), and stop the drone assassinations; ~ (3) cut military spending by at least 50% and close the more than 800 U.S. military bases on foreign soil (Russia has twelve; China has one); bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) - in 3/4 of the world’s countries - home; ~ (4) stop U.S. support for human rights abusers, notably Israel and Saudi Arabia; and ~ (5) lead on global nuclear disarmament. ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income > On Jun 13, 2018, at 7:04 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Hi, Lois. > > Susan and her colleagues were of course vital to the formation of AWARE, all those years ago. > > We would be delighted to have them back at the demonstrations she started - informing the local community of the present US war crimes. > > Regards, CGE > > >> On Jun 13, 2018, at 5:43 PM, Lois Steinberg via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> Historical correction _ The regular demonstrations started shortly after 9/11 when Susan Parenti came up with LAW, Ladies Against War (men were welcome). We dressed up and protested at noon (I forgot which day) in front of the Urbana Free Library. >> >> On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 3:27 AM, bjornsona--- via Peace wrote: >> Hi Carl. Will AWARE be meeting this Sunday on Father's Day? >> >> Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> >> ------ Original message------ >> From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss >> Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2018 3:14 PM >> To: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss; >> Cc: peace; >> Subject:[Peace-discuss] Minutes from Sunday's AWARE meeting >> >> AWARE Meeting, 5-6pm, Sunday, June 10, 2018 >> ============================== >> ===== >> Hammerhead Coffee, University & Wright, Champaign >> >> A sparsely-attended regular meeting of the 'Anti-War, Anti-Racism Effort of Champaign-Urbana' considered the various outlets for the publication of anti-war concerns in C-U this summer: >> >> PRESS >> ~ ‘The Champaign-Urbana News-Gazette’ - under new editors - runs letters (250 words), occasional guest columns (700 words), and ‘Sunday Extras’ (500 words) on war topics. Despite its frequently objectionable editorials, the N-G maintains a letters column where differing political opinions are juxtaposed. >> ~ ’Smile Politely’ runs articles, blog posts, and often comments of interest to the anti-war movement. A ’News from Neptune’ column - from the UPTV show - appears occasionally. >> ~ ‘The Daily Illini’ publishes letters from AWAREists with a UIUC connection. >> >> INTERNET >> ~ There is a Facebook page ‘AWARE of Champaign Urbana Illinois’ at >> . >> ~ AWARE also has two email lists, 'peace-discuss' >> and ' and 'peace' >> . >> ~ ‘CounterPunch’ is a leading political website, publishing a number of articles each day, and a magazine, published six times per year. The editor-in-chief is a FOA (Friend of AWARE) and publishes material from AWAREists - including Doctor Know (J. B. Nicholson), research director for 'AWARE on the Air.' >> >> DEMONSTRATIONS >> ~ AWARE’s regular demonstrations, 2-4pm on the first Saturday of the month, go back 15 years - a tradition once called ‘The Main Event’ (from its location at Main & Neil Streets in downtown Champaign). >> ~ The Urbana Farmers’ Market hosts an AWARE table with anti-war flyers, books, buttons and bumper stickers on various Saturdays through the summer. >> ~ AWARE has participated in demonstrations sponsored by other groups, notably the Fourth of July parade, for which AWARE in the past has prepared notable floats (when we were younger...) >> >> TELEVISION >> ~ ‘AWARE on the Air’ is a weekly hour of anti-war discussion, recorded at noon on Tuesdays at the studios of Urbana Public Television. It’s cable-cast on UPTV, but it seems to find most of its viewers on YouTube. >> >> RADIO >> ~ The audio of ‘AWARE on the Air’ is carried by WRFU-LP (104.5 FM, ‘Radio Free Urbana’), which also features other programs of interest to AWAREists and their audience, notably ‘The History Hour,’ ’The Illinois World Labor Hour,’ and ‘News from Neptune.’ >> >> OTHER LOCAL POLITICAL GROUPS >> ~ AWARE joins other anti-war/anti-racism groups in C-U for particular demonstrations. Upcoming is an ‘ICE Out of CU!’ rally at Drury Inn Hotel in Champaign, on Saturday 23 June at 11 am. >> >> ### >> ______________________________ >> _________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana. >> net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmedina67 at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 05:00:01 2018 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (kmedina67) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 00:00:01 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Sunday's AWARE meeting Message-ID: <5b21f653.1c69fb81.5ddb7.efa5@mx.google.com> Oh Lois, that is amazing! I remember hearing about LAW! Outside the Urbana free library! Wow.  Between 2001 and 2003, i babysat so others could participate, so i don't remember many details of events.  There were teach-ins at mckinley foundation.Bigger demonstrations (and counter demonstrations) on north prospect until about 2004. In 2003, On the day the US invaded Iraq, an interruption of university classes was organized (because war interrupts lives) and we walked through the buildings beating on  buckets and garbage cans.  Campus anti-war network (CAN), Iraq veterans against the war,  ... In 2004 the demonstrations moved to the main event, downtown Champaign, and only monthly.  Then, during the occupy movement, a major portion of aware demonstrated weekly with Occupy CU at different locations around town. We still did the first Saturday in downtown Champaign.  -Karen Medina null -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 05:45:01 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 00:45:01 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Liberal pundits attack Singapore peace-making Message-ID: <858138B0-1A9E-421D-986D-624B0EA173C3@gmail.com> Who would have though that the paid flacks of the MIC would go so far? [Aaron Maté‏] "This from Rachel Maddow is a perfect window into the prevailing mindset of elite liberal punditry these days: coming at Trump from the right to lament his call to pause US war games in Korea, and -- need I say it? -- inferring that this horrible development must be the fault of PUTIN. "Here's the segment: https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/trump-military-exercise-giveaway-to-n-korea-suits-putin-s-goals-1254434371701?playlist=associated … and here are more highlights. There's something very sad about all of this." From jbw292002 at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 06:52:25 2018 From: jbw292002 at gmail.com (John W.) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 01:52:25 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Sunday's AWARE meeting In-Reply-To: <5b21f653.1c69fb81.5ddb7.efa5@mx.google.com> References: <5b21f653.1c69fb81.5ddb7.efa5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 12:00 AM, kmedina67 via Peace < peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: Oh Lois, that is amazing! I remember hearing about LAW! Outside the Urbana > free library! Wow. > > Between 2001 and 2003, i babysat so others could participate, so i don't > remember many details of events. > Ladies Against War? I wrote a rather lengthy article about them for the public i. Interviewed Susan Parenti, who was fascinating. Seems like it was sometime in 2002. Not sure AWARE even existed yet. John Wason > There were teach-ins at mckinley foundation. > Bigger demonstrations (and counter demonstrations) on north prospect until > about 2004. > > In 2003, On the day the US invaded Iraq, an interruption of university > classes was organized (because war interrupts lives) and we walked through > the buildings beating on buckets and garbage cans. > > Campus anti-war network (CAN), Iraq veterans against the war, ... > > In 2004 the demonstrations moved to the main event, downtown Champaign, > and only monthly. > > Then, during the occupy movement, a major portion of aware demonstrated > weekly with Occupy CU at different locations around town. We still did the > first Saturday in downtown Champaign. > > > -Karen Medina > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 06:19:11 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 01:19:11 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] A lot of war-mongering neolib/neocons are jonesing to trip him up Message-ID: 'Trump is starting to feel his stride a little bit’: > ‘Trump feels he is breaking free of the shackles of Russia collusion nonsense’ – Jim Jatras ### -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 06:25:28 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 01:25:28 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Optimism of the willing References: <139971992.4782.0@wordpress.com> Message-ID: <0E3014D7-F233-4AF9-A4C5-E831E3142A3D@gmail.com> Begin forwarded message: > > From: Caitlin Johnstone > Subject: [New post] Optimism > Date: June 15, 2018 at 12:51:21 AM CDT > To: cgestabrook at gmail.com > > New post on Caitlin Johnstone > > > Optimism by Caitlin Johnstone > Off the top of my head I have a hard time thinking of anything sleazier than smearing peace talks in order to gain partisan political points, but that has indeed been the theme of the last few days when it comes to the Singapore summit. Liberal pundits everywhere have been busily circulating the narrative that Kim Jong-Un "played" Trump by getting him to temporarily halt military drills in exchange for suspended nuclear testing. It was the most fundamental beginning of peace negotiations and a slight deescalation in tensions on the Korean Peninsula, but the way they talk about it you'd think Kim had taken off from Singapore in Air Force One with the keys to Fort Knox and Melania on his lap. > > I'm not sure how far up the military-industrial complex's ass one's head needs to be to think that one single step toward peace is a gigantic take-all-the-chips win for the impoverished North Korea, but many of Trump's political enemies are taking it even further. > > Senate Democrats have introduced a bill to make it more difficult for Trump to withdraw US troops from South Korea, because while you can always count on Capitol Hill to make it incredibly easy for a president to deploy military personnel around the globe, giving that same office the power to bring troops home is a completely different matter. > > Surprising no one, MSNBC's cartoon children's program The Rachel Maddow Show took home the trophy for jaw-dropping, shark-jumping ridiculousness with an eighteen-minute Alex Jones impression claiming that the chief architect of the Korean negotiations was none other than (and if you can't guess whose name I'm going to write once we get out of these parentheses I deeply envy your ignorance on this matter) Vladimir Putin. > > > Saner voices have been pushing back against this madness, none in my opinion more lucidly than South Korea-born peace activist Christine Ahn in an interview with Sarah Lazare forIn These Times, who discussed how "Trump’s proven willingness to turn on a dime and engage in dangerous brinkmanship with North Korea" makes it "especially reckless for self-professed liberals to pressure the president to be more confrontational." > > "It is very dangerous to pressure Trump to be hardline," Ahn said. "We have to put all of our efforts into ensuring this goes well and is not undermined. Look who's in Trump’s cabinet: John Bolton, Mike Pompeo, and tomorrow is the confirmation meeting for Harry Harris, the former head of Pacific Command—a military man with a hardline position against China and North Korea, now likely the new ambassador to South Korea. If things don't go well, we are in an incredibly dangerous situation." > > Ahn makes the case that people who most distrust Trump should be the most eager to see him strike a peace deal, and of course they should. This president is facilitating acts of military violence and dangerous escalations around the world; anyone who isn't relieved by the possibility of one powder keg being defused in that rampage actually has a lot more faith in Trump's competence than they're pretending to. > > Happy New Universe Day#NorthKorea #Korea #Syria #DCCC #propaganda #awakening https://t.co/xUMXt2CjVi > — Caitlin Johnstone (@caitoz) April 28, 2018 > Less dangerous than the appeals to Trump's massive ego that he should be more tough and warlike are the constant appeals to pessimism I'm seeing from smug, world-weary commentators, which in my opinion are still pernicious in their own way. > > Pessimism is a hell of a drug. Since most humans are deeply conditioned organisms and thus generally predictable, any bet against their ability to break out of their old habitual patterns is generally a safe one. Political analysts who do this are rewarded with both a reputation for making accurate predictions (which they will never fail to remind everyone of and crow about) and the hit to their brain's reward center that they get from being right. If you enjoy being proven right and feeling smug about it, pessimism is the drug for you. > > The Korean Peninsula's peace negotiations are replete with opportunities to make pessimistic predictions; about Trump messing it all up, about agreements falling through, about settling back into the same old patterns which have been diminishing the quality of tens of millions of lives on both sides of the demilitarized zone. It is easy to make such predictions about the plight of the Korean people and about the plight of our species in general. But it is optimism which will actually bring us out of those old patterns. > > Indeed, that's all optimism really is when you come right down to it: a faith in the human ability to pull out of unwholesome patterns. Whether you're discussing the possibility of an individual maintaining sobriety, the possibility of two nations putting aside generations-old hostilities and moving into a new relationship, or the possibility of our species pulling out of its omnicidal, ecocidal trajectory toward extinction and turning its intellectual and creative powers toward creating a collaborative relationship with one another and with the environment instead, you are talking about humans breaking old patterns. > > End of Korean War may be in sight https://t.co/UOVWtmk5Th > — Tim Shorrock (@TimothyS) June 13, 2018 > The revolution that we are fighting is being fought first and foremost not by the politicians, not by the activists, not by the journalists, but by the healers. The people who have committed to doing their own inner heavy lifting and uprooting their old, unhelpful conditioning patterns so that they can move through the world consciously and efficaciously instead of reacting unconsciously through the perceptual filters and mental habits born of childhood traumas and confused coping mechanisms. These are the people who are on the front lines of the battle to draw humanity out of its old unwholesome societal patterns born of countless generations of war, slavery, exploitation and degradation and into its new potentiality. > > And they are all optimists. Nobody ever rose above themselves by the firm belief that they couldn't, and no societal evolution ever took place because its leaders believed it wasn't possible. > > When you're talking about things that people don't have much control over, like the weather, it doesn't matter much if you're a pessimist or an optimist; it's going to rain when it's going to rain whether you think it will or not. But when you are talking about the ability to transcend old patterns, self-fulfilling prophecy comes into play. The belief that your individual conditioning patterns are unchangeable guarantees that they will remain as they are. Promulgating cynicism and pessimism makes humanity that much more locked into its old patterns. > > Luckily, the opposite is also true. A confidence that you are not defined by your mental habits nor are you doomed to repeat them gives you the ability to heal and rise above them. Promulgating optimism and the belief that humanity can win this thing makes us that much more likely to. > > > > And it is already happening. A US president meeting with the North Korean leader was until recently unthinkable. The anointed queen Hillary Clinton failed to be installed into office. The old mass media monopoly on information and dominant narratives is eroding more and more every day. Day by day we're seeing gaps in the old patterns and becoming a little more prone to expecting the unexpected. > > The movement into the light of consciousness is a movement out of our old, deeply conditioned patterns. This means that the more we move away from our trajectory of death and destruction, the more wildly unexpected occurrences will start popping up. The gaps between the bars of our cages will emerge from way out of left field, because they will not arise from the old repetitive cycles which brought us here. The pessimists won't see it coming. The optimists won't either, but we'll be delighted when it arrives. > > Pessimists get to be right most of the time, and that is very nice for them. But it's optimists who are pointed in the direction of light and life. It's optimists who will save the world. Be an optimist. > > ______________________ > > Internet censorship is getting pretty bad, so best way to keep seeing the stuff I publish is to get on the mailing list for my website , so you’ll get an email notification for everything I publish. My articles and podcasts are entirely reader and listener-funded, so if you enjoyed this piece please consider sharing it around, liking me on Facebook , following my antics on Twitter , checking out my podcast , throwing some money into my hat on Patreon or Paypal , or buying my bookWoke: A Field Guide for Utopia Preppers . > > > > Bitcoin donations:1Ac7PCQXoQoLA9Sh8fhAgiU3PHA2EX5Zm2 > > Caitlin Johnstone | June 15, 2018 at 5:51 am | Tags: North Korea , optimism , peace , utopia | Categories: Article | URL: https://wp.me/s9tj6M-optimism > Comment See all comments > > Unsubscribe to no longer receive posts from Caitlin Johnstone. > Change your email settings at Manage Subscriptions . > > Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: > https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2018/06/15/optimism/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 08:49:26 2018 From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:49:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Silencing_pro-Palestinian_professors_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=93_Israel=E2=80=99s_academic_army?= References: <1740261154.758250.1529052566752.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1740261154.758250.1529052566752@mail.yahoo.com> Silencing pro-Palestinian professors – Israel’s academic army | | | | | | | | | | | Silencing pro-Palestinian professors – Israel’s academic army A small army of pro-Israeli watchdog organizations keeps a close eye on everything Palestinian academics do and ... | | | American universities pride themselves on fostering free speech and protecting their communities’ academic freedom.  But for Palestinian students, faculty, and their supporters, both freedoms have been sharply limited. A small army of pro-Israeli watchdog organizations keeps a close eye on everything Palestinian academics do and say, every Tweet they post and group they join.  Those who go too far in criticizing Israel or standing up for Palestine may pay with their jobs, their academic standing, their future admission and employment opportunities. All these groups claim they are defending Jewish students from anti-Semitism. In reality, the watchdogs rarely address anti-Jewish incidents – there aren’t many to address — but they will be all over anyone who calls out Israeli crimes. Israel’s army includes Canary Mission, which “documents people and groups that promote hatred of the USA, Israel and Jews on North American college campuses,” making their names and pictures available to potential employers and grad schools. According to Professor Juan Cole, “Canary Mission’s profiles are filled with inflammatory accusations, falsehoods, misrepresentations and errors.” Stand With Us (tagline “Supporting Israel around the World”) attacks criticism of Israel as “the new anti-Semitism.” The army includes AMCHA, CampusWatch (a project of the right-wing Middle East Forum), the Jewish Community Relations Council (JCRC,) the David Horowitz Freedom Center, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL,) Simon Wiesenthal Center, Zionist Organization of America (ZOA,) The American Israel Education Foundation (AIEF), the David Project, who seek to “shape the campus discussion on Israel,”, the student group Hillel, the Lawfare Project, whose leader has said their purpose is “to inflict massive damage on enemies of Israel,” and many more. Most of these groups are small but well-connected.  In 2016, Israel’s education minister Naftali Bennet launched a $66 million campaign called Mosaic United to “combat critical discourse around Israel on American campuses.” Hillel International has collaborated with Mosaic to the tune of $22 million. Having a dozen well-funded enemies watching their every move can chill Palestinians’ academic lives. According to Palestine Legal attorney Liz Jackson, many Palestinian academics “have become afraid to engage in activism or critical scholarship about Israel-Palestine, for fear of the inevitable blacklisting and threats that follow. There are courses that are not offered, dissertations that are not written, faculty who are denied positions, students who won’t join activist groups or attend lectures — all because they are afraid of the likely consequences.” One professor facing this hostile army is Dr. Rabab Abdulhadi at San Francisco State University (SFSU.) Hired in 2007 to start a program in Arab and Muslim Ethnicities and Diasporas (AMED) studies, she has been under attack ever since. AMED was promised two additional professorships and administrative support, positions the university has never filled. Dr. Abdulhadi and her students have been targeted three times in hate posters pasted on campus by the David Horowitz Freedom Center.  These posters name and picture AMED faculty and students, calling them supporters of terrorism and anti-Semitic. She has been censured, with administrators asking her to take down her personal Facebook page that criticized Zionism. Campus Watch has tweeted attacks on her for setting up a ‘sister school’ relationship with an-Najah National University in Palestine.  She has received warnings for ‘misuse of funds’ for purchases that had been previously approved. In June 2017, the Lawfare Project filed a suit against SFSU, some administrators, and Professor Abdulhadi alleging widespread anti-Semitism and a “hostile environment for Jewish students” on campus. The complaint has been submitted twice, but a District Court judge dismissed it as insufficient to go to trial. The plaintiffs would have a stronger case if they did not target Professor Abdulhadi, who is, after all, one professor with two or three classes, hardly in a position to “foster a hostile environment” for thousands of Jewish students. She has never been cited with any unfavorable conduct toward Jewish students, nor have Jewish students (outside of Hillel) reported experiencing anti-Semitism on campus, according to studiesand surveys. Dr. Abdulhadi has not been fired yet but many others have. In 2014, the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign conditionally offered a faculty position to Steven Salaita, a Palestinian American English professor and noted scholar in Native American studies.  Salaita was to start teaching in August, 2014. Shortly before the term opened, Chancellor Phyllis M. Wise abruptly withdrew the job offer, citing Salaita’s angry tweets about Israel’s invasion and bombing of Gaza. Salaita’s qualifications were not questioned, but Chancellor Wise said his presence would be “too disruptive of the University.” Why? The University had received over 100 letters from donors threatening withdrawal of support, along with attacks from Jewish organizations calling Salaita anti-Semitic. Although many students and faculty protested the decision, Salaita is still tweeting but is currently out of academia. So is Professor Norman Finkelstein.  Finkelstein was denied tenure at De Paul University in 2007 for his writings critical of Israel, despite the university calling him a “prolific scholar and outstanding teacher.” He has never been offered another teaching job in the United States. When professors at Cal State University Northridge tried to have Finkelstein hired temporarily, the university refused. They had received messages attacking Finkelstein from JDL, Stand with Us, and Hillel, and Jewish alumni threatened to withdraw donations. David Klein, one of the professors who invited Finkelstein to Northridge, said, “Academic freedom protects critics of the national policies of the U.S., France, England, and every other country in the world, save one: Israel.  Norman Finkelstein violated this axiom. Had he not been Jewish he would have been vilified as anti-Semitic, and that slur alone would have isolated him from supporters. As it is, his detractors smear him as a ‘Holocaust denier,’ knowing full well that Finkelstein is the son of two Holocaust survivors, and that the remainder of his family died in the Nazi death camps.” Sometimes pro-Israeli opposition prevents subject matter from being taught.  In 2016, California State University at Fresno began soliciting applicants for a newly created Professorship in Middle East Studies. In May 2017, they stopped the hiring process. In an article in The Intercept, Vida Samiian, longtime dean of Fresno State’s College of Arts and Humanities, said that a pressure campaign from Canary Mission, among others had targeted the search committee, and that the school had balked at having four Arab-American finalists for the role. Although the University denies that outside pressure or candidates’ ethnicity had anything to do with stopping the search, the search has not been restarted and the position has not been filled. Suppression of pro-Palestinian voices happens constantly. Over 250 cases of discrimination against Palestinian faculty and students were reported to Palestine Legal in 2016 alone. Even Archbishop Desmond Tutu was canceled as a speaker at Minnesota’s University of St. Thomas after the Zionist Organization of America and JCRC complained he was anti-Israel. Universities are vulnerable to this kind of pressure because money is getting tighter. They can’t afford to offend pro-Israel donors. Along with donor pressure, Israel’s army can call on powerful political friends and wage intimidating media campaigns. In the months before Lawfare’s suit against SFSU was filed, JWeekly, northern California’s largest publication, ran a long series of articles with titles like “SFSU Marginalize Jews,” and “SF State’s Jewish Problem,” alleging widespread anti-Semitism on campus. Some of these stories were picked up by mainstream media, and California state senators started calling for investigations of SFSU.  Meanwhile JCRC, Hillel, and the ADL met with SFSU President Leslie Wong and other administrators to “educate” them about the feelings of Jewish students (by which they mean Zionist students, since no one else has complained). He has not met with AMED or Muslim students to get their side of the story. The tide may be turning, though. More Jewish students are turning away from Israel, telling administrators that they are not Zionists. Professor Abdulhadi has not gone away. She is preparing her defense for Round 3 against Lawfare. Although still without paid support staff, AMED classes are overbooked, and she gets support from Arab, Black, Filipino, and other communities and academics including Women’s Studies professors.  Groups like Jewish Voice for Peace, Jews Against Zionism, and If Not Now are speaking out for Palestinian rights.  People are losing their fear of Israel’s watchdog army, so we will see if academic freedom can be restored to Palestinians and protected for everyone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From naiman at justforeignpolicy.org Fri Jun 15 11:45:02 2018 From: naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (Robert Naiman) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 06:45:02 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Snarl Wants to Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law Message-ID: Snarl wants to ban abortion. Snarl wants to Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law. That’s why Snarl supports Rodney Davis. Because Snarl is a Catholic Fascist who wants to Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law. Snarl’s professed concern for peace is a red herring. Banning abortion is Snarl’s true objective. That’s why Snarl supports Rodney Davis Because Snarl wants to ban abortion and Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ewj at pigs.ag Fri Jun 15 11:54:53 2018 From: ewj at pigs.ag (E. Wayne Johnson) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 19:54:53 +0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Snarl Wants to Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <048b9943-58f1-5ef9-b4cf-3fd0cedb981f@pigs.ag> rodney davis is sort of a douchebag and at least a quasi-neocon but anyone who is opposed to abortion is not 100% bad or useless. Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Snarl wants to ban abortion. Snarl wants to Subjugate the Uterus to > the Rule of Law. That’s why Snarl supports Rodney Davis. Because Snarl > is a Catholic Fascist who wants to Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of > Law. Snarl’s professed concern for peace is a red herring. Banning > abortion is Snarl’s true objective. That’s why Snarl supports Rodney > Davis  Because Snarl wants to ban abortion and Subjugate the Uterus to > the Rule of Law. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuartnlevy at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 15:24:20 2018 From: stuartnlevy at gmail.com (stuartnlevy) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 10:24:20 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] If you think Democracy Now's reporting on Nicaragua ignores US influence, past and maybe present ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If you think Democracy Now's reporting on Nicaragua ignores US influence, past and maybe present ...  people are urging Democracy Now to bring in other voices - Camilo Mejia (who had been prominent in speaking against the Iraq war as a member of IVAW), and Brian Willson.  -- Stuart -------- Original message --------From: Kevin Zeese Date: 6/14/18 22:24 (GMT-06:00) To: Mitchel Cohen Cc: Thomas Scott Tucker , ufpj-activist Subject: Re: [ufpj-activist] Marc Cooper reporting from Nicaragua This just in from Nicaraguans concerned with the biased reporting on Democracy Now. Dear US friends Today we have a very concrete, specific action we urgently ask you to help us achieve. We need as many people as possible to write to Democracy Now and request that they interview Camilo Mejia and Brian Willson about the situation in Nicaragua. The email address is producers at democracynow.org. Can you please write them an email and share this request with others?Thanks KZ at KBZeeseBuild power and resistancePopular Resistancewww.PopularResistance.orgShift Wealth: Economic DemocracyIts Our Economy www.ItsOurEconomy.USDemocratize the Media Clearing the FOG (Forces of Greed) Radio http://www.ClearingTheFOGRadio.org On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 11:09 PM Mitchel Cohen wrote: I went to a public event about Nicaragua last night, co-sponsored by the Marxist Education Project, and I didn't know which Looking Glass I'd stepped through. Only saw a handful of people I knew there -- unusual, for this kind of issue. What's happening in Nicaragua today is just awful, but there didn't seem to be any reflection on the role of the U.S., nor any sense of continuing the work of the Sandinista revolution. The speakers were calling for the removal of Daniel Ortega as president (can't say I blame them, he's awful these days), but they kept repeating the tropes of the right wing. I wasn't sure who the speakers are nor much of the audience of around 100 people, nor who they were representing or being funded by. Still, they had very legitimate concerns -- and outrage! But the students who spoke there, with their faces masked, didn't seem to have any appreciation of the the Sandinista revolution and their fight against the contras. The revolution was, after all, almost 40 years ago! And it comes on the heels of Mark Rudd meeting with David Hogg of the Parkland High School students. Mark reported that David didn't really have any idea of -- NOR INTEREST IN -- the history of the fightbacks of the 60s and 70s and 80s, and will therefore never learn lessons from them about how to fight successfully without getting co-opted or bought (without even knowing it!). The Nicaraguan speakers didn't once mention U.S. imperialism, except for U.S. writer Dan La Botz, whose new book is out: What Went Wrong? The Nicaraguan Revolution: A Marxist Analysis . I was shocked, actually, by the lack of explicit connection to history as well as opposition to the U.S. government's role there. Mitchel Cohen At 10:58 PM 6/14/2018, Kevin Zeese wrote: People in Nicaragua are very upset that Democracy Now is presenting the regime change narrative without having on any people from Nicaragua or who are involved in Nicaragua who support Ortega, which is the vast majority of the people as their lives have greatly improved during his government. The propaganda is thick on Nicaragua as it as been on Veneuela and other countries where the US is working to put in place the neoliberal, DC Consensus government they want. If anyone has contacts at Democracy Now, let them know people are concerned about their biased coverage against Ortega, and in favor of regime change. They may not even realize they are being used. KZ @KBZeese Build power and resistance Popular Resistance www.PopularResistance.org Shift Wealth: Economic Democracy Its Our Economy www.ItsOurEconomy.US Democratize the Media Clearing the FOG (Forces of Greed) Radio http://www.ClearingTheFOGRadio.org On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 9:32 PM Lee Loe wrote: Thank  you so much, Kevin! Lee Loe  From: ufpj-activist [ mailto:ufpj-activist-bounces+lee.t.loe=gmail.com at lists.mayfirst.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Zeese Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2018 7:35 PM To: David McReynolds Cc: Thomas Scott Tucker; ufpj-activist Subject: Re: [ufpj-activist] Marc Cooper reporting from Nicaragua  This is the US false news line to get people to ignore US regime change. I was confused by Nicaragua until I talked to people who had followed the country closely for years and heard from people living in Nicaragua. The line reported here is the US propaganda line to support regime change -- something the US has worked for in Nicaragua for a long time.  Nicaragua is complicated. There are former Sandinistas who worked with Ortega who are now neoliberals calling for sanctions and regime change. Just because someone says they are or were a Sandanista does not mean they are telling the narrative of the people of Nicaragua.  The retirement issue has been taken totally out of context. A much more restrictive neoliberal proposal was put forward by the IMF and the equivalent of the Chamber of Commerce in Nicaragua, Ortega took a compromise position with fewer cuts etc. But, the US has been funding the opposition in Nicaragua for years, creating a neoliberal opposition to Ortega. It is bizarre that students are protesting retirement cuts -- not the usual student issue. But, it is really only wealthy students from private universities who have been funded by NED and USAID and developed into the Ortega opposition. They are the propaganda tools of US regime change.  Here are some articles that break through the US, neoliberal and oligarch propaganda coming out of Nicaragua. See https://popularresistance.org/tag/Nicaragua/  KZ @KBZeese Build power and resistance Popular Resistance www.PopularResistance.org Shift Wealth: Economic Democracy Its Our Economy www.ItsOurEconomy.US Democratize the Media Clearing the FOG (Forces of Greed) Radio http://www.ClearingTheFOGRadio.org   On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 6:25 PM David McReynolds < davidmcreynolds7 at gmail.com> wrote:   On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 5:38 PM, Thomas Scott Tucker wrote:   https://www.facebook.com/marc.cooper1/posts/10106244011412905  Marc Cooper is with Bianca Jagger and 3 others. 3 hrs · Warning: This is a long post. Daniel Ortega's Sandinista (FSLN) govt is now a full blown dynastic dictatorship that has gunned down almost 100 protesters in the last month. But the Left cannot find its voice on this issue. I say this as someone on the left, who spent much time reporting in Nicaragua in the 1980's. I was certainly an FSLN sympathizer. I led a group to dig defensive trenches on the Honduran border against the Contras. I lived in Ortega's house as I wrote a profile of his wife, Rosario Murillo. I interviewed Daniel several times one on one. I was there in the early morning hrs of 1990 when he and the FSLN were voted out of power. But it seems the American Left, much of it having trekked to Managua in the 80's as a sort of revolutionary Mecca, have stopped paying attention over the last 28 yrs or have simply closed their eyes to events that do no fit their preferred narrative. In the transitional period after his defeat, Ortega and a small group within the FSLN immediately privatized much of the economy and amassed great wealth. The Left said nothing. During the 90's, while in opposition, Ortega purged the FSLN of all dissenters and democratic elements and reshaped the party more or less to be a mafia like version of the Mexican PRI. The Left said nothing. When he was revealed as someone who molested his adolescent step daughter (whom I know well) the Left said nothing. When he pacted with the oligarchs' party to divvy up the country. the Left said nothing. When he was re-elected president a decade ago, still draped in the black and red cloak of revolutionary Sandinismo the Left briefly rejoiced. After all he DID give vocal support to Chavez and Castro so he must be a good guy. That he campaigned literally on the bible, that he outlawed all abortion, that he turned loose goon squads to batter protesters in the street, was also apparently of little interest to the Left. As has been his billion dollar boondoggle with Chinese capitalists to build a trans oceanic canal while displacing tens of thousands of mostly indigenous farmers. Last year when he appointed his mostly now whacked out wife as VP, beginning a Somoza like dynasty, and as she has taken to to the air almost daily to make Col. Kurtz-like rambling speeches peppered with scripture(!), again the Left was deaf and dumb. Dissident Sandinistas who left the party and country have come to deride her as La Gran Hermana, or The Big Sister (in honor of Orwell). But the wheels started coming off a month ago when Ortega announced crippling cuts to social security, a blow to the country's large majority of impoverished. Protests broke out. So did the cops, army and lethal Sandinista Youth goon squads who comport themselves exactly like the S.A. Bodies littered the streets. Ortega predictable labeled the protesters as hooligans and criminals. The Left was still silent. Now there's more or less a general uprising taking place shaking Ortega's grip on power. These are not right wing led movements as Ortega is really the right winger here. And yes, the Left, at least the American Left still remains silent. Why> What's behind this cowardice? I think the answer is easy. Consciously or otherwise the guilt-ridden Left is mired in Mao's old and ridiculous axiom "That the primary contradiction we face is the conflict between US Imperialism and the world's peoples." This notion robs anybody in the world of agency except the CIA and ignores what should be obvious: the primary contradiction in the world is between the rich and powerful and the poor and powerless among nations and INSIDE every nation. But it's no problem, apparently, for the Left to sit back comfortably in its hipster and university communities and say while they are for democracy and rule of law (for themselves), the people of Cuba, Nicaragua or Venezuela really don't need any of it as long as they have (fill in the blank)...free medical care, or rationed food, or "an anti-imperialist" govt. Things in Nicaragua are spiraling downward and many more will die in the coming days as the Ortegas cling to their dictatorship. I have no idea how this will unfold. There's only one certainty: The Left will remain silent just as it has on Venezuela. It's no fun to write these sort of things as I remain a socialist (who believes in democracy). But I cannot tolerate those who defile its name with dictatorship. Here's what I wrote about "the lost revolution" way back in 2001 ---> https://bit.ly/2H1ztfc  About this article news.sky.com Students take over Nicaragua university as protests against President Daniel Ortega turn ugly once again ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry Gross Professor School of Communication Annenberg School for Communication and Journalism University of Southern California 734 West Adams Blvd. Los Angeles, CA 90007-7725 213-740-3770  Editor, International Journal of Communication ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------  _______________________________________________ ufpj-activist mailing list Guidelines: %( http://www.unitedforpeace.org/listserv-community-guidelines) Post: ufpj-activist at lists.mayfirst.org List info: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/listinfo/ufpj-activist To Unsubscribe         Send email to:  ufpj-activist-unsubscribe at lists.mayfirst.org         Or visit: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/options/ufpj-activist/kbzeese%40gmail.com You are subscribed as: kbzeese at gmail.com  Virus-free. www.avg.com  _______________________________________________ ufpj-activist mailing list Guidelines: %( http://www.unitedforpeace.org/listserv-community-guidelines) Post: ufpj-activist at lists.mayfirst.org List info: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/listinfo/ufpj-activist To Unsubscribe         Send email to:  ufpj-activist-unsubscribe at lists.mayfirst.org         Or visit: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/options/ufpj-activist/mitchelcohen%40mindspring.com You are subscribed as: mitchelcohen at mindspring.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 18:58:32 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 13:58:32 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Snarl Wants to Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bob— You have two sorts of posting to this list. Type One is a generally informed and well-reasoned objection to US war-making, often under the banner of ‘Just Foreign Policy.’ Type Two is a mad (in both senses) personal attack, inaccurate and occasionally involving outright (and conscious) lying. (Example: ). Is the difference the cooking sherry, Bob? or do you have another excuse for this Jekyll and Hyde act? This morning’s post is clearly Type Two, but I’ll try to answer as if it were an argument, rather than just an insult. [1] Abortion obviously ends a human life. “My political views: I'm basically against anything that kills people or destroys the planet we live on.” Most of my friends who’ve had abortions or seriously considered it have done so for economic reasons (even the privileged ones). As Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg pointed out, government support for abortion arises from motives of economics and eugenics: "Frankly I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don’t want to have too many of.” Opponents of abortion must press for universal medical care, free education, child supports, etc. [2] I 'support Rodney Davis’ in the sense that I think one should vote for our incumbent Republican Representative rather than his Democratic opponent, not because I generally agree with his political views - I don’t - but because I don’t think that the party of Russiagate and opposition to peace talks with the DPRK should be given control of the House of Representatives. [3] "A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue. It may be either a logical fallacy or a literary device that leads readers or audiences towards a false conclusion.” With that definition in mind, re-read your email quoted in the article, above. Regards, Carl > On Jun 15, 2018, at 6:45 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Snarl wants to ban abortion. Snarl wants to Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law. That’s why Snarl supports Rodney Davis. Because Snarl is a Catholic Fascist who wants to Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law. Snarl’s professed concern for peace is a red herring. Banning abortion is Snarl’s true objective. That’s why Snarl supports Rodney Davis Because Snarl wants to ban abortion and Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 19:06:41 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 14:06:41 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Snarl Wants to Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law In-Reply-To: <048b9943-58f1-5ef9-b4cf-3fd0cedb981f@pigs.ag> References: <048b9943-58f1-5ef9-b4cf-3fd0cedb981f@pigs.ag> Message-ID: <93C9F8E8-ACB3-44DB-9DAE-15D0F71A3458@gmail.com> I wonder if Bob thinks his body parts shouldn’t be subject to the rule of law. A defense of Harvey Weinstein? > On Jun 15, 2018, at 6:54 AM, E. Wayne Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: > > rodney davis is sort of a douchebag and at least a quasi-neocon > but > anyone who is opposed to abortion is not 100% bad or useless. > > Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss wrote: >> Snarl wants to ban abortion. Snarl wants to Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law. That’s why Snarl supports Rodney Davis. Because Snarl is a Catholic Fascist who wants to Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law. Snarl’s professed concern for peace is a red herring. Banning abortion is Snarl’s true objective. That’s why Snarl supports Rodney Davis Because Snarl wants to ban abortion and Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law. >> > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From ewj at pigs.ag Fri Jun 15 23:34:04 2018 From: ewj at pigs.ag (ewj) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2018 07:34:04 +0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Snarl Wants to Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law In-Reply-To: <93C9F8E8-ACB3-44DB-9DAE-15D0F71A3458@gmail.com> References: <048b9943-58f1-5ef9-b4cf-3fd0cedb981f@pigs.ag><93C9F8E8-ACB3-44DB-9DAE-15D0F71A3458@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1529105643133.xbr1xylyubwwmfpcbdcaybk5@android.mail.163.com> i was just looking at some of the propaganda for the Free the Nipple campaign. (I wasn't staring... Honest!) On 2018-06-16 03:06 , C G Estabrook Wrote: I wonder if Bob thinks his body parts shouldn’t be subject to the rule of law. A defense of Harvey Weinstein? > On Jun 15, 2018, at 6:54 AM, E. Wayne Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: > > rodney davis is sort of a douchebag and at least a quasi-neocon > but > anyone who is opposed to abortion is not 100% bad or useless. > > Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss wrote: >> Snarl wants to ban abortion. Snarl wants to Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law. That’s why Snarl supports Rodney Davis. Because Snarl is a Catholic Fascist who wants to Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law. Snarl’s professed concern for peace is a red herring. Banning abortion is Snarl’s true objective. That’s why Snarl supports Rodney Davis  Because Snarl wants to ban abortion and Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law. >> > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 00:13:02 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 19:13:02 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Snarl Wants to Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law In-Reply-To: <1529105643133.xbr1xylyubwwmfpcbdcaybk5@android.mail.163.com> References: <048b9943-58f1-5ef9-b4cf-3fd0cedb981f@pigs.ag> <93C9F8E8-ACB3-44DB-9DAE-15D0F71A3458@gmail.com> <1529105643133.xbr1xylyubwwmfpcbdcaybk5@android.mail.163.com> Message-ID: <2895DDC7-644B-4144-B816-81A730DE4C1F@gmail.com> From the decalogue to the Bill of Rights, what are laws about, other than bodies? Financial instruments? > On Jun 15, 2018, at 6:34 PM, ewj wrote: > > i was just looking at some of the propaganda for the Free the Nipple campaign. > > (I wasn't staring... Honest!) > > > On 2018-06-16 03:06 , C G Estabrook Wrote: > > I wonder if Bob thinks his body parts shouldn’t be subject to the rule of law. > > A defense of Harvey Weinstein? > > > > On Jun 15, 2018, at 6:54 AM, E. Wayne Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > > rodney davis is sort of a douchebag and at least a quasi-neocon > > but > > anyone who is opposed to abortion is not 100% bad or useless. > > > > Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss wrote: > >> Snarl wants to ban abortion. Snarl wants to Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law. That’s why Snarl supports Rodney Davis. Because Snarl is a Catholic Fascist who wants to Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law. Snarl’s professed concern for peace is a red herring. Banning abortion is Snarl’s true objective. That’s why Snarl supports Rodney Davis Because Snarl wants to ban abortion and Subjugate the Uterus to the Rule of Law. > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Peace-discuss mailing list > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brussel at illinois.edu Sat Jun 16 03:21:50 2018 From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2018 03:21:50 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Pepe Escobar anayses the world situation Message-ID: Fascinating to hear him talk. An interview from Serbian station. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/49650.htm —mkb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Sat Jun 16 12:02:22 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2018 07:02:22 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Stop the persecution of immigrants In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05E0EF45-30C8-4008-9ED4-DBAD53CF2B19@illinois.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Jun 16 12:37:19 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2018 12:37:19 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Stop the persecution of immigrants In-Reply-To: <05E0EF45-30C8-4008-9ED4-DBAD53CF2B19@illinois.edu> References: <05E0EF45-30C8-4008-9ED4-DBAD53CF2B19@illinois.edu> Message-ID: Thank you. I sent it to Dick Durbin Please add the author’s name to the article, which I accidentally left off. Eric London of the WSWS.ORG > On Jun 16, 2018, at 05:02, Carl G. Estabrook wrote: > > Send this to > > https://www.durbin.senate.gov/contact/email > https://www.duckworth.senate.gov/connect/email-tammy > https://rodneydavis.house.gov/contact/ > > —CGE > > >> On Jun 16, 2018, at 6:25 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >> >> Shame on those groups and individuals who refuse to participate in protests against the barbarism of the USG due to petty personal politics. >> >> Abolish Washington’s immigration Gestapo! Stop the persecution of immigrants! By Eric London >> 16 June 2018 >> Tens of millions of Americans are watching in shame and horror as the US government arrests hundreds of thousands of immigrants, separates them from their spouses, children and parents and deports or detains them in a network of internment camps where guards subject them to physical and sexual abuse. >> The attack on immigrants marks one of the darkest episodes of US history. Its historical parallels include the internment of 120,000 Japanese during the Second World War, the deportation of fugitive slaves to the antebellum south, and the arrests and deportations carried out in Germany under Nazi rule. The immigration agencies enforcing these policies deserve the label “the American Gestapo.” >> Certain thresholds are now being crossed. This week, the Trump administration announced that it has run out of room for children detainees in detention centers and will house new detainees in an open-air tent city camp outside of El Paso, Texas. Attorney General Jefferson Sessions defended the administration’s policy of family separation yesterday by citing the bible verse Romans 13, which he said requires people “to obey the laws of the government because God has ordained them for the purpose of order.” >> A total of 1,995 children were separated from their parents between April 19 and May 31. There has been a 30 percent increase in immigration arrests from fiscal year 2016, totaling 143,470 arrests in 2017, while a similar increase is already underway in 2018. An Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) budget predicted a 65 percent increase in the daily detention population, which will likely increase from over 40,000 on a given day at present. There are already 600,000 immigrants in deportation proceedings—roughly equal to the entire population of Baltimore, Maryland. >> Each data point masks an individual story. Jose Luis Garcia, a 62-year-old who moved to the United States when he was 13, was arrested Sunday morning while drinking his morning coffee after immigration agents staked out his home near Los Angeles. >> Earlier this month, agents in a detention center plucked an infant from her weeping mother’s breast. Marco Antonio Munoz, a 39-year-old, hanged himself with his sweater in a detention facility in Texas last month after being separated from his wife and his 3-year-old son. >> Roxana Hernandez, a transgender woman who came to the US in the Stations of the Cross caravan, died in ICE custody in New Mexico due to HIV-related complications after being locked in an “ice box” jail cell maintained at freezing temperatures. Sources told the WSWS that recent detainees are being locked in padded cells with immigrants who have been detained for over a year and who have gone insane. >> Despite these worsening conditions and recent draconian restrictions on the right to asylum, immigrants remain desperate to flee war, violence and inequality produced by over a century of US imperialist exploitation in their home countries in Africa, the Middle East, Asia, and Central America. Fifty-five immigrants were found in the back of a big rig truck Tuesday night in San Antonio, Texas after crossing the border. Several immigrants were hospitalized. >> The policies of the Trump administration are extensions of the policies of the Democratic Party and the Obama administration. The Democratic Party’s role is not one of insufficient opposition but of active involvement in planning and enforcing the anti-immigrant policies Trump is now implementing with unprecedented ferocity. >> The Democrats have not lifted a finger to prevent or even stall the ongoing attack on immigrants, as evidenced by their decision to drop protection for recipients of Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA). Trump administration attorneys cite the Obama administration as precedent for each of their xenophobic measures. And in California, a center of the war on immigrants, Democratic Governor Jerry Brown agreed to send the state’s national guard to the border with Mexico. >> To call these policies “bipartisan” actually underestimates the pioneering role played in the attack on immigrants by the Democratic Party, both under Bill Clinton and Barack Obama. >> The impact on the working class, in both a material and political sense, has been devastating. Six million US citizen children live in families with at least one undocumented family member, and half a million children experienced the arrest, detention or deportation of at least one parent between just 2011 and 2013. One study showed that families lost between 50 and 90 percent of income within six months of a parent’s immigration-related arrest, detention or deportation. >> Workplace raids like the military crackdown on plant nurseries last week in Sandusky, Ohio show that the government is setting a precedent whereby it can arrest and detain all workers who conduct strikes or protests deemed “illegal” by the corporate-controlled courts. The trade unions and Democratic Party support the “right” of the government to drag workers off the job and haul them off to internment camps. >> The agencies responsible for enforcing these measures, including the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE), and Customs and Border Protection (CBP), are threats to the working class as a whole. They are comprised, in significant part, of bureaucrats and police officers who are fascistic in political composition. >> Despite the media’s efforts to downplay the attack on immigrants, millions of people are responding with horror and disgust to Trump’s family separation and mass deportation policies. >> In Ohio, for example, a June Enquirer/Suffolk University poll found just 27 percent of midterm election voters want their vote to support Trump’s policies, including on immigration, compared to 49 percent who want to oppose the direction Trump is leading the country. The American working class, linked by family connections and by the process of production to workers from all parts of the world, is organically hostile to the anti-immigrant policies of the government. >> Across the world, the ruling classes are whipping-up xenophobia to scapegoat immigrants for the lingering economic crisis. In Italy, France, Germany, Austria, Slovenia, Hungary, Poland, and elsewhere, far right wing parties have risen to prominence in the vacuum produced by the pro-corporate, pro-war policies enacted by the social democratic parties. >> In Italy, the coalition Five Star-Liga Nord government has provoked a pogrom atmosphere against immigrants, facilitating physical brutality against immigrants and denying entry to the Aquarius, a boat filled with over 600 refugees seeking to escape Africa. Two refugees from this boat have now died. In Greece, the self-proclaimed “left” SYRIZA government has rejected international legal mandates demanding it allow immigrants to leave the island camps upon which they have been held captive. >> All over the world, the dismantling of the deportation machines is a life or death question for the working class, against whom the dictatorial arrest-and-detain policies will next be employed. Nowhere else is this demand more crucial than in United States. >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 21:48:21 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 16:48:21 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] AWARE meeting, Sunday 17 June Message-ID: <27EFFD72-FE1E-4A99-B584-375683287252@gmail.com> (Feeling a bit unwell, I'm afraid I won't make today's meeting: the World Cup has nothing to do with it. Apologies.) Upcoming events include 'AWARE on the Air' on Tuesday. (I'm thinking of reading 'Bartleby the Scrivener' for the program; I'm not quite sure why.) We have I think a table at the Farmers' Market on Saturday, and we'll have some up-to-date anti-war flyers for distribution. See also the anti-ICE demo on the 23rd, noted elsewhere on this list. Members and friends of AWARE are encouraged to post notices of other anti-war activities. —CGE From bjornsona at ameritech.net Sun Jun 17 22:16:51 2018 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 17:16:51 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] AWARE meeting, Sunday 17 June Message-ID: Hi all. I am hibernating inside also. Tom and I had a houseful of people visit, which was wonderful, and then I fell asleep when they left and missed the AWARE meeting start time. Stay cool everyone. Anne  Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: C G Estabrook via Peace-discussDate: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 4:48 PMTo: Peace-discuss List;Cc: Peace;Subject:[Peace-discuss] AWARE meeting, Sunday 17 June (Feeling a bit unwell, I'm afraid I won't make today's meeting: the World Cup has nothing to do with it. Apologies.) Upcoming events include 'AWARE on the Air' on Tuesday. (I'm thinking of reading 'Bartleby the Scrivener' for the program; I'm not quite sure why.) We have I think a table at the Farmers' Market on Saturday, and we'll have some up-to-date anti-war flyers for distribution. See also the anti-ICE demo on the 23rd, noted elsewhere on this list. Members and friends of AWARE are encouraged to post notices of other anti-war activities. —CGE _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 00:40:55 2018 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 19:40:55 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Good historical context from veteran Marxist Message-ID: une 15, 2018 The Russians are Coming! by Paul Buhle Photo by Tom Hilton | CC BY 2.0 These days we see a seemingly odd project taking place in the realms of American liberalism: ferocious insistence that the truly outrageous Donald J. Trump is at his worst when….making peace with our enemies! Has he been brainwashed by Russian and/or North Korean agents, perhaps? Or is this all, perhaps, a crude plan to place Trump Steaks in Trump hotels in heretofore unbidden locations? What kind of madness would lessen the threat of American nukes that keeps us all as safe as we may reasonably hope to be? The story is old, so old that we need to be reminded of an insight offered myself and others in the lecture classes of historian of empire William Appleman WIlliams, more than fifty yeas ago. As he explained, US policy toward Russia was already, in the nineteenth century approximately what it became after the Russian Revolution. Indeed, as nearly every imperial policy going back thousands of years: chop away at competing empires as persistently as possible, rouse internal divisions while threatening domestic populations into submissions with dark warnings about the evil nature of the competitor-empire peoples. All this acquired a distinctly modern affect with the rise of the Bolsheviks, of course. The American newspaper headlines of 1919, announcing that in the new Russia, women had been “nationalized,” fairly typified the looniness of the orchestrated response, or alternatively, placed Russia among the barbarian non-white races threatening the West and, almost certainly, its fragile womanhood. In their new book, *The Russians Are Coming. Again: the first cold war as tragedy, the second as farce , *Jeremy Kuzamarov and John Marciano, scholar-activists of human rights campaigns for decades, offer details reminding us of how hard American leaders struggled to put across the propaganda, but also how determined they have remained to keep as much of their own aims of conquest as secret as possible. Woodrow Wilson, adopted by the press as the great peacemaker and democrat, naturally kept the invasion of Russia by the US and its far right Russian agents from public eyes. When exposed after its abject failure, the project was described as incidental, unimportant, even accidental, in the same way that the US involvement in Vietnam would be described by affable liberal commentators as unintentional, a good deed gone somehow wrong. Why did they and their successors persist, across the decades down to the collapse of the East Bloc and beyond, in the insistence upon American innocence? And why did they persist in seemingly fanatical plans to overthrow or, possibly, exterminate the Russians entirely by way of atomic or nuclear weapons? These questions are not so easily answered, because they involve the high-wire maneuvers of powerful men (and a very few women) evidently willing to destroy the world destined, otherwise, to be inherited by their super-rich and super-powerful sons, grandsons and so on into figurative eternity. I once asked Harry Magdoff, co-editor of *Monthly Review*, why American leaders of business and the two parties would perpetuate an ecological acceleration downward. Harry answered that the logic was the same as the atomic and nuclear arms race. They could not, in their own terms, do otherwise. Capitalism, our national capitalism, must confront and overcome all other forms of power. Peace, in the real sense of global peace, is (to borrow a phrase from the hawkish Margaret Thatcher) Not An Option. Thus a deliciously awful issue of *Colliers* magazine, 1951, analyzed by the authors, drew upon intellectual celebrities far and wide to declare Russian Communism a form of madness, dangerously infectious if not eradicated. Leading liberal Arthur Schlesinger Jr., had earlier declared sympathy for Communism to reveal evidence of neurosis, the cravings of “lonely and frustrated people” (p.128). No wonder Schlesinger was said to have authored the legislation put forward by Senator Hubert Humphrey, during the height of the Cold War, to incarcerate in special prison camps thousands of Americans guilty of….being American Communists. More to the point today, perhaps, are the curses thrown down from the heights of liberal indignation upon Martin Luther King, Jr, after his repudiation of the War in Vietnam. “An egomaniac…under the sway of the Communists,” black columnist Carl Rowan called him. (p.134) For the AFL’s George Meany and noted liberals moving rightward, King was mostly an ingrate. Unions had raised money for him, some labor leaders had actually marched with him, if mainly to heighten their own prestige. And now he had betrayed America! A rehearsal of the US role around the world in the Cold War era brings us sharply toward Noam Chomsky’s conclusion that the Russians had determined to hold onto the security of an impermeable Eastern Bloc, while the American leaders, for their part, regarded the Russians mainly as a barrier to complete control of the Global South. This makes as much sense of the anti-communist obsession as any other single notion, because it brings together modern capitalism and a major source of its blood-soaked origins: the exploitation of race. The final chapter begins with C. Wright Mills’s argument that a calamitous World War III was most likely because the US could not accept the threat to hegemony that a command economy offered to the Third World. In the decades since the Soviet collapse, this threat has come to pass in a different fashion, with the rise of counter-hegemonic capitalistic economies in unexpected parts of the world. That the imagined threat would now be laid at the door of the Russians, whose military budget is not a tenth of that of the US, offers one more irony. As does the return of bogeyman anticommunist rhetoric, adjusted to Islam, then specified to Shiites aka Iran. Kuzmarov and Marciano have delivered a powerful package of ideas in highly readable form. Let’s hope today’s young readers, in particular, will find their way to this book. Join the debate on Facebook More articles by:Paul Buhle *Paul Buhle is a retired historian, and co-founder, with Scott Molloy, of an oral history project on blue collar Rhode Islanders.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r-szoke at illinois.edu Mon Jun 18 02:56:55 2018 From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 02:56:55 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Help! Personal crisis! Message-ID: Help! I’m hoping the brilliant pundits on this site can help me out with my identity crisis. (1) Am I one of “the People”? Are you? How do you know? Who has the right to decide this? On what basis? (2) Am I a member of the “Working Class”? Poor me, both my parents were educated only thru the 8th grade. We were sharecropping farmers throughout my childhood. We could never afford to have any dental work done. I milked cows before & after school every day while in high school. So am I not in fact clearly & obviously an oppressed victim of society, class bias, middle-class morality, etc.? Where can I get membership cards showing that I am officially a member of the People & the Working Class? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Mon Jun 18 17:00:16 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 12:00:16 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] 'Consistent ethic of life' Message-ID: A number of our friends and colleagues on these lists seem to have been disturbed recently by my defense of what has been called a ‘consistent ethic of life’: >. That reminds me, tangentially, of a dinner party we gave for our late friend Nat Hentoff in 1992: our dozen guests were all good liberals, but Nat and I were the only ones who said we wouldn't vote for Bill Clinton. I think we were right. —CGE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Mon Jun 18 20:37:23 2018 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 15:37:23 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] 'Consistent ethic of life' Message-ID: Dear Carl: I just found this podcast: "Future Left" and thought you might find some of the topics and voices represented here interesting. Torie Bosch & Roy Scranton are on this  Nov. 17, 2017 edition discussing an anthology of stories they edited which imagines our future. It starts slow- gets much better halfway through.   I am a Roy Scranton fan since his essays were published in the NYT, and now collected in his short, frank, says-what-very-few-others-wiil-say book: Learning to Die in the Anthropocene. (Which possibly should have been titled Learning to Live in the Anthropocene!)  https://player.fm/series/podcasts-future-left/ep-80-what-future-w-torie-bosch-roy-scranton Scranton, Roy. Learning to Die in the Anthropocene (City Lights Books: San Francisco,CA) 2015. ISBN 978-0-87286-669-0 www.city lights.com Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discussDate: Mon, Jun 18, 2018 12:00 PMTo: Peace-discuss List;Cc: prairiegreens at lists.chambana.net;Peace;Subject:[Peace-discuss] 'Consistent ethic of life' A number of our friends and colleagues on these lists seem to have been disturbed recently by my defense of what has been called a ‘consistent ethic of life’:   . That reminds me, tangentially, of a dinner party we gave for our late friend Nat Hentoff in 1992: our dozen guests were all good liberals, but Nat and I were the only ones who said we wouldn't vote for Bill Clinton. I think we were right. —CGE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Tue Jun 19 13:01:22 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 13:01:22 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] 'Consistent ethic of life' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I highly recommend this VDO by Vincent Emanuelle, a former marine, as he travels through his views on war, activism, the left, what comes after capitalism, and how to survive in a dystopian world. All done in one hour, by a 32 year old, two years ago. Hubris for one so young, right? Wrong, some of the greatest thinkers did their best work when in their twenties and thirty’s. https://youtu.be/NEjOnh75Apk On Jun 18, 2018, at 13:37, bjornsona--- via Peace > wrote: Dear Carl: I just found this podcast: "Future Left" and thought you might find some of the topics and voices represented here interesting. Torie Bosch & Roy Scranton are on this Nov. 17, 2017 edition discussing an anthology of stories they edited which imagines our future. It starts slow- gets much better halfway through. I am a Roy Scranton fan since his essays were published in the NYT, and now collected in his short, frank, says-what-very-few-others-wiil-say book: Learning to Die in the Anthropocene. (Which possibly should have been titled Learning to Live in the Anthropocene!) https://player.fm /series/podcasts-future-left/ep-80-what-future-w-torie-bosch-roy-scranton Scranton, Roy. Learning to Die in the Anthropocene (City Lights Books: San Francisco,CA) 2015. ISBN 978-0-87286-669-0 www.city lights.com Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------ From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2018 12:00 PM To: Peace-discuss List; Cc: prairiegreens at lists.chambana.net;Peace; Subject:[Peace-discuss] 'Consistent ethic of life' A number of our friends and colleagues on these lists seem to have been disturbed recently by my defense of what has been called a ‘consistent ethic of life’: . That reminds me, tangentially, of a dinner party we gave for our late friend Nat Hentoff in 1992: our dozen guests were all good liberals, but Nat and I were the only ones who said we wouldn't vote for Bill Clinton. I think we were right. —CGE _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rwhelbig at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 12:33:56 2018 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 05:33:56 -0700 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Horrific Details Left out of UN Report on Gas Attack in Syria Message-ID: TOP STORIES Horrific details about chemical attacks in Syria were left out of a U.N. report. An early draft leaked to The Times shows the omissions. Thursday, June 21, 2018 8:08 AM EST Slow-release poison. A bomb dropped on a balcony. Children with blue skin. These details and others blaming Syria for atrocities in eastern Ghouta, a suburb of Damascus, were uncovered by a United Nations commission investigating and documenting possible war crimes in the seven-year-old conflict. But when the commission issued a report on Wednesday, the details were omitted. Read More » -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brussel at illinois.edu Fri Jun 22 02:22:03 2018 From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 02:22:03 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Saker re. Russia, the U.S. and the EU Message-ID: <384C89A4-863F-4812-AC0C-62F85F871638@illinois.edu> Interesting if not compelling. I don’t know who Saaker is, but he’s smart. http://www.unz.com/tsaker/can-the-eu-become-a-partner-for-russia/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Fri Jun 22 16:43:25 2018 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (Anne Parkinson) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 16:43:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] 'Consistent ethic of life' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <210123766.923916.1529685805534@mail.yahoo.com> Perhaps you noticed the N-G sentence in its (AP) Charles Krauthammer obituary today: "Krauthammer is credited with coining the term 'the Reagan Doctrine' for President Reagan's doctrine of aiding anti-Communist movements worldwide. " That sent me looking for old news articles on the fall of the Berlin wall and the Eastern bloc revolutions. I knew Reagan's presidency (and his Vice President H.W. Bush, former head of the CIA) was famous for keeping brutal dictator Noriega in Panama and for Oliver North illegally selling arms to Iran to arm guerrillas against Daniel Ortega's people-supported Sandinistas in Nicaragua (Iran-Contra).  I was under the impression the Berlin wall fell and the Eastern bloc revolutions happened after Reagan's presidency. And they did: in 1989. How else can this be worded? " President Reagan's doctrine of enforcing Multi-National-Corporation policies by legal and illegal means, including conducting peace talks with Gorbachev, the Cold War, the School of the Americas that taught torture, and allowing the CIA to foment anti-democratically-elected regime change around the world. Returning to how and when the Berlin wall felI, the article below fits in very well with the "consistent ethic of life," Carl.The last paragraphs particularly are quite interesting. Not all credit is given to PJP - Baptists and other Christians are included. I would say that Love won - and always will - no matter which religions. Why Did the Berlin Wall Fall? - The Imaginative Conservative | | | | | | | | | | | Why Did the Berlin Wall Fall? - The Imaginative Conservative The Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain seemed to be permanent fixtures of the political landscape of Europe after ... | | | | On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 8:01 AM, Karen Aram wrote: I highly recommend this VDO by Vincent Emanuelle, a former marine, as he travels through his views on war, activism, the left, what comes after capitalism, and how to survive in a dystopian world.  All done in one hour, by a 32 year old, two years ago. Hubris for one so young, right? Wrong, some of the greatest thinkers did their best work when in their twenties and thirty’s. https://youtu.be/NEjOnh75Apk On Jun 18, 2018, at 13:37, bjornsona--- via Peace wrote: Dear Carl: I just found this podcast: "Future Left" and thought you might find some of the topics and voices represented here interesting. Torie Bosch & Roy Scranton are on this  Nov. 17, 2017 edition discussing an anthology of stories they edited which imagines our future. It starts slow- gets much better halfway through.   I am a Roy Scranton fan since his essays were published in the NYT, and now collected in his short, frank, says-what-very-few-others-wiil-say book: Learning to Die in the Anthropocene. (Which possibly should have been titled Learning to Live in the Anthropocene!)  https://player.fm /series/podcasts-future-left/ep-80-what-future-w-torie-bosch-roy-scranton Scranton, Roy. Learning to Die in the Anthropocene (City Lights Books: San Francisco,CA) 2015. ISBN978-0-87286-669-0 www.city lights.com Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2018 12:00 PMTo: Peace-discuss List;Cc: prairiegreens at lists.chambana.net;Peace;Subject:[Peace-discuss] 'Consistent ethic of life' A number of our friends and colleagues on these lists seem to have been disturbed recently by my defense of what has been called a ‘consistent ethic of life’:   . That reminds me, tangentially, of a dinner party we gave for our late friend Nat Hentoff in 1992: our dozen guests were all good liberals, but Nat and I were the only ones who said we wouldn't vote for Bill Clinton. I think we were right. —CGE_______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Sat Jun 23 01:08:41 2018 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 20:08:41 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Saker re. Russia, the U.S. and the EU Message-ID: Excellent piece Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discussDate: Thu, Jun 21, 2018 9:22 PMTo: Peace Discuss;Cc: Brussel, Morton K;Subject:[Peace-discuss] Saker re. Russia, the U.S. and the EU Interesting if not compelling. I don’t know who Saaker is, but he’s smart. http://www.unz.com/tsaker/can-the-eu-become-a-partner-for-russia/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Sat Jun 23 01:08:41 2018 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 20:08:41 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Saker re. Russia, the U.S. and the EU Message-ID: Excellent piece Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discussDate: Thu, Jun 21, 2018 9:22 PMTo: Peace Discuss;Cc: Brussel, Morton K;Subject:[Peace-discuss] Saker re. Russia, the U.S. and the EU Interesting if not compelling. I don’t know who Saaker is, but he’s smart. http://www.unz.com/tsaker/can-the-eu-become-a-partner-for-russia/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r-szoke at illinois.edu Sun Jun 24 03:40:08 2018 From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 03:40:08 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: Conservative George Will says vote against Republicans in midterms References: <4dbc2479-0c0a-6802-3fca-ab4c85d0a7bd@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <4FA8E96A-F34A-47D3-8B6A-78AA39368267@illinois.edu> From: > Subject: Conservative George Will says vote against Republicans in midterms Date: June 23, 2018 Conservative George Will says vote against Republicans in midterms -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sun Jun 24 04:05:32 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 23:05:32 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: Conservative George Will says vote against Republicans in midterms In-Reply-To: <4FA8E96A-F34A-47D3-8B6A-78AA39368267@illinois.edu> References: <4dbc2479-0c0a-6802-3fca-ab4c85d0a7bd@illinois.edu> <4FA8E96A-F34A-47D3-8B6A-78AA39368267@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <96F6E80F-EBED-4141-B1C0-68B317A653DE@gmail.com> I don’t think I’ve ever agreed with Will, and I don’t now. I think it’s more dangerous to have the ‘Russiagate’ Democrats in control of the Congress than the undoubtedly vicious Republicans. —CGE > On Jun 23, 2018, at 10:40 PM, Szoke, Ron via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > From: > Subject: Conservative George Will says vote against Republicans in midterms > Date: June 23, 2018 > > Conservative George Will says vote against Republicans in midterms > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From naiman at justforeignpolicy.org Sun Jun 24 12:44:24 2018 From: naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (Robert Naiman) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 07:44:24 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: Conservative George Will says vote against Republicans in midterms In-Reply-To: <4FA8E96A-F34A-47D3-8B6A-78AA39368267@illinois.edu> References: <4dbc2479-0c0a-6802-3fca-ab4c85d0a7bd@illinois.edu> <4FA8E96A-F34A-47D3-8B6A-78AA39368267@illinois.edu> Message-ID: Does George Will still have ties to Champaign-Urbana? He went to Uni High, right? Maybe we could get George Will to specifically weigh on the behavior of Rodney Davis. That could have some pull among Republicans and Independents around here. On Sat, Jun 23, 2018 at 10:40 PM, Szoke, Ron via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > *From: * > *Subject: **Conservative George Will says vote against Republicans in > midterms* > *Date: *June 23, 2018 > > Conservative George Will says vote against Republicans in midterms > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ewj at pigs.ag Sun Jun 24 20:32:59 2018 From: ewj at pigs.ag (ewj) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 04:32:59 +0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] 'Consistent ethic of life' In-Reply-To: <210123766.923916.1529685805534@mail.yahoo.com> References: <210123766.923916.1529685805534@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1529872378635.1jal43ybihgqwxtqnysrhzn4@android.mail.163.com> i enjoyed reading the article about the demise of the iron curtain and the spirit falling on the congregation in Leipzig. revival used to break out even among the methodists in illlinois in the early 1800s. the story of abolitionist peter cartwright is an interesting read. i used ho hope that the americans would awaken again and cast off their masters but indeed they seem to prefer bondage. and like someone noted recently too many of the so-called churches teach pedestrian neocon neolib americanism not the good news. On 2018-06-23 00:43 , Anne Parkinson via Peace-discuss Wrote: Perhaps you noticed the N-G sentence in its (AP) Charles Krauthammer obituary today: "Krauthammer is credited with coining the term 'the Reagan Doctrine' for President Reagan's doctrine of aiding anti-Communist movements worldwide. " That sent me looking for old news articles on the fall of the Berlin wall and the Eastern bloc revolutions. I knew Reagan's presidency (and his Vice President H.W. Bush, former head of the CIA) was famous for keeping brutal dictator Noriega in Panama and for Oliver North illegally selling arms to Iran to arm guerrillas against Daniel Ortega's people-supported Sandinistas in Nicaragua (Iran-Contra).  I was under the impression the Berlin wall fell and the Eastern bloc revolutions happened after Reagan's presidency. And they did: in 1989. How else can this be worded? " President Reagan's doctrine of enforcing Multi-National-Corporation policies by legal and illegal means, including conducting peace talks with Gorbachev, the Cold War, the School of the Americas that taught torture, and allowing the CIA to foment anti-democratically-elected regime change around the world. Returning to how and when the Berlin wall felI, the article below fits in very well with the "consistent ethic of life," Carl.The last paragraphs particularly are quite interesting. Not all credit is given to PJP - Baptists and other Christians are included. I would say that Love won - and always will - no matter which religions. Why Did the Berlin Wall Fall? - The Imaginative Conservative Why Did the Berlin Wall Fall? - The Imaginative Conservative The Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain seemed to be permanent fixtures of the political landscape of Europe after ... On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 8:01 AM, Karen Aram wrote: I highly recommend this VDO by Vincent Emanuelle, a former marine, as he travels through his views on war, activism, the left, what comes after capitalism, and how to survive in a dystopian world.  All done in one hour, by a 32 year old, two years ago. Hubris for one so young, right? Wrong, some of the greatest thinkers did their best work when in their twenties and thirty’s. https://youtu.be/NEjOnh75Apk On Jun 18, 2018, at 13:37, bjornsona--- via Peace wrote: Dear Carl: I just found this podcast: "Future Left" and thought you might find some of the topics and voices represented here interesting. Torie Bosch & Roy Scranton are on this  Nov. 17, 2017 edition discussing an anthology of stories they edited which imagines our future. It starts slow- gets much better halfway through.   I am a Roy Scranton fan since his essays were published in the NYT, and now collected in his short, frank, says-what-very-few-others-wiil-say book: Learning to Die in the Anthropocene. (Which possibly should have been titled Learning to Live in the Anthropocene!)  https://player.fm /series/podcasts-future-left/ep-80-what-future-w-torie-bosch-roy-scranton Scranton, Roy. Learning to Die in the Anthropocene (City Lights Books: San Francisco,CA) 2015. ISBN 978-0-87286-669-0 www.city lights.com Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------ From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2018 12:00 PM To: Peace-discuss List; Cc: prairiegreens at lists.chambana.net;Peace; Subject:[Peace-discuss] 'Consistent ethic of life' A number of our friends and colleagues on these lists seem to have been disturbed recently by my defense of what has been called a ‘consistent ethic of life’:   . That reminds me, tangentially, of a dinner party we gave for our late friend Nat Hentoff in 1992: our dozen guests were all good liberals, but Nat and I were the only ones who said we wouldn't vote for Bill Clinton. I think we were right. —CGE _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 22:59:53 2018 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 17:59:53 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] David Harvey interview Message-ID: Very well-done, efficient, comprehensive interview, from Marx to neoliberalism to China to race, one hour long, beginning at 5 minutes. http://davidharvey.org/2018/06/audio-david-harvey-on-capital-interview-with-the-dig-podcast/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brussel at illinois.edu Tue Jun 26 03:39:55 2018 From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 03:39:55 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] David Harvey interview In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the link. Fascinating to listen to the very impressive David Harvey, but I wish that his interlocutor was a little more critical of his analyses. For example, are people in general better off now then in the 1600’s? How can the limit to growth be contained? and what kinds of growth are beneficial, which not? Has not China under its state capitalism made its denizens better off? … On Jun 25, 2018, at 5:59 PM, David Green via Peace-discuss > wrote: Very well-done, efficient, comprehensive interview, from Marx to neoliberalism to China to race, one hour long, beginning at 5 minutes. http://davidharvey.org/2018/06/audio-david-harvey-on-capital-interview-with-the-dig-podcast/ _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 04:33:32 2018 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 23:33:32 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] David Harvey interview In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Harvey is involved in many intra-left and intra-disciplinary controversies of a vitriolic nature about which I'm not qualified to address, especially regarding the nature of imperialism and the role of the Global South, China, etc. But his general approach seems sound, which is to employ a clear understanding of Marx's view of capitalism, which indeed affirms the relationship between capitalism and progress (on the one hand) and asserts that capitalism's inherent need for compound growth is destructive at many levels, obviously climate change, etc. Therefore, capitalism is not viable, on the one hand, but has so far been able to manage its crises and keep going. On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 10:40 PM Brussel, Morton K wrote: > Thanks for the link. Fascinating to listen to the very impressive David > Harvey, but I wish that his interlocutor was a little more critical of his > analyses. For example, are people in general better off now then in the > 1600’s? How can the limit to growth be contained? and what kinds of growth > are beneficial, which not? Has not China under its state capitalism made > its denizens better off? … > > > On Jun 25, 2018, at 5:59 PM, David Green via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > Very well-done, efficient, comprehensive interview, from Marx to > neoliberalism to China to race, one hour long, beginning at 5 minutes. > > > http://davidharvey.org/2018/06/audio-david-harvey-on-capital-interview-with-the-dig-podcast/ > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 10:56:54 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 05:56:54 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The anti-war movement didn't die - it was murdered, like King Duncan Message-ID: <4F5C43FB-83F4-4C57-AE40-95AE9418D8EC@gmail.com> The liberal NYT columnist Maureen Dowd gives a disillusioned account of Obama: >. In 2008, Obama and the Democrats mendaciously co-opted the anti-war movement to win the presidency - and then prosecuted US wars and heightened US war provocations: >. Strangely, AWARE - a thriving anti-war organization a dozen years ago - presaged in miniature the fell effect of the Obama campaign and presidency: >. —CGE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 23:22:45 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 18:22:45 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] 'AWARE on the Air,' 26 June Message-ID: <678999A4-EF30-4AFA-8149-572B2EA37E50@gmail.com> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u94EQOZYHM From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 18:15:40 2018 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 13:15:40 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Charles Krauthammer Message-ID: My letter in today's News-Gazette: Prior and subsequent to the death of columnist Charles Krauthammer, pundits informed readers of the respect he was accorded from mainstream political quarters. This was due to Krauthammer’s facility for deploying academic language to sanitize aggressive and destructive U.S. foreign interventions, a pattern that will continue until ordinary Americans are willing to look honestly in the mirror, as the Germans and Japanese were forced to do after World War II. Krauthammer’s doctrine of “democratic realism” provides the most recent intellectual cover for what has been consistent U.S. foreign policy since 1898. In current practice it means that we have a “God-given” (now both Christian and Jewish) right to rule the world, by any means necessary. That policy reflects the ambitions of American corporate, financial, military, and academic elites to profit by controlling capital, labor, and resources for the benefit of a small minority, both domestic and global. Domestically, those chickens have come home to roost during the past four decades of brutal neoliberal inequality. In geopolitical terms, it means that if a country or its leadership does not "cooperate" with U.S.-led global capitalism, it risks subversion, isolation, and invasion, depending on its level of intransigence and strategic importance. Thus Cuba, Vietnam, Central America, Venezuela, Iraq, Libya, etc. Democracy is irrelevant, as is proved by Iran (1953), Chile (1973), and our alliances with Saudi Arabia, Israel, apartheid South Africa, etc. The militarization of our society and media thus enlists part of the working class in a struggle against its own (and humanity’s) interests. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 23:30:44 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 18:30:44 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] 'Liberals' - notably Durbin - embrace 'Russiagate, ' attack Assange Message-ID: <57291A3D-E80D-4CCF-A913-6782B1DECCF4@gmail.com> Do not vote to give Democrats control of Congress. —CGE From bjornsona at ameritech.net Fri Jun 29 03:32:34 2018 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 22:32:34 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] 'Liberals' - notably Durbin - embrace 'Russiagate, ' attack Assange Message-ID: <68mhedb0e5aq93816nc22r7r.1530242785377@email.lge.com> Both Dems and Repubs are members of the same corporate-financial-military-billionaire owned party. It matters not for whom we vote at this point, except for hyper-local elections and to observe the farce the national elections have become Shall we have a contest to rename our new Party That Plays Both Sides? The Republicrats, the Democans?  Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: C G Estabrook via Peace-discussDate: Thu, Jun 28, 2018 6:31 PMTo: peace;Cc: peace-discuss;Subject:[Peace-discuss] 'Liberals' - notably Durbin - embrace 'Russiagate, ' attack Assange Do not vote to give Democrats control of Congress. —CGE _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 14:23:17 2018 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 09:23:17 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: Fw: Please forward onto the Peace Discuss List for me? In-Reply-To: <1100808736.301958.1530282143075@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1100808736.301958.1530282143075@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: David Green Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 9:22 AM Subject: Fw: Please forward onto the Peace Discuss List for me? To: David Green ----- Forwarded Message ----- *From:* Karen Aram *To:* David Green *Sent:* ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎29‎, ‎2018‎ ‎09‎:‎08‎:‎47‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT *Subject:* Please forward onto the Peace Discuss List for me? [image: https://d3wo5wojvuv7l.cloudfront.net/t_facebook_share/images.spreaker.com/original/85e6638b7d41165440f3341132c2796b.jpg?show_id=1617571] New reports shine light on UK intelligence’s role in post-9/11 rendition, torture Two new reports by the UK’s parliamentary intelligence and security committees reveal that Britain’s MI-6 foreign intelligence service and MI-5 domestic intelligence service were linked to hundreds of cases of rendition and torture along with the United States in the years following the September 11 attacks. Former Foreign Secretary Jack Straw will likely face tough questions about what he knew and when he knew it. Francis Boyle, a professor of international law at the University of Illinois C… https://www.spreaker.com/user/radiosputnik/new-reports-shine-light-on-uk-intelligen Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grapes17 at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 18:13:09 2018 From: grapes17 at gmail.com (James M.) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 13:13:09 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Instant Runoff Voting in Urbana 2007/08? Message-ID: I ran across this article in the publici talking about IRV in Urbana: (seems to be down at the moment): http://publici.ucimc.org/a-brief-history-of-instant-runoff-voting-in-urbana-municipal-elections/ Web Archive Link: https://web.archive.org/web/20160809204842/http://publici.ucimc.org/a-brief-history-of-instant-runoff-voting-in-urbana-municipal-elections/ Doing research, it looks like Durl Kruse was spearheading this. I had found an email address for him, but it no longer seems to work, I get a bounce back when I mail to it. Does anyone have any current email address for Durl? Or also, does anyone have more information about what happened with IRV in Urbana or how to pick the torch back up? (the article seems to say that it kinda petered out in 2008) The folks over at Illinois Ranked Choice Voting (which is mainly comprised of volunteers in CU area) is looking to re-ignite the conversation and potentially work towards getting Urbana to switch. --- James M -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From divisek at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 23:00:53 2018 From: divisek at yahoo.com (Dianna Visek) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 23:00:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Instant Runoff Voting in Urbana 2007/08? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <754776836.608527.1530313253598@mail.yahoo.com> I worked with Durl on this back then.  The mainstream Democrats were extremely opposed to IRV and told folks all kinds of terrible things about what would happen.  There were people at the township meeting who had absolutely no understanding about what they were voting for, but had been told they had to be there.  One older African American  lady told me that IRV would take away our civil rights.  And we were only asking to put an advisory referendum on the ballot.   Even if it passed, the City wouldn't have to actually do anything. Esther Patt was upfront about their opposition.  She said, "We worked for 20 years to take over the city.  Why would we risk changing things now?" I'm emailing Durl to see if he responds to this.  I usually run into Durl and Jan at the Red Herring's vegetarian dinners during the school year.  I don't have their phone number, alas. Dianna On Friday, June 29, 2018, 1:13:36 PM CDT, James M. via Peace-discuss wrote: I ran across this article in the publici talking about IRV in Urbana: (seems to be down at the moment): http://publici.ucimc.org/a-brief-history-of-instant-runoff-voting-in-urbana-municipal-elections/ Web Archive Link: https://web.archive.org/web/20160809204842/http://publici.ucimc.org/a-brief-history-of-instant-runoff-voting-in-urbana-municipal-elections/ Doing research, it looks like Durl Kruse was spearheading this. I had found an email address for him, but it no longer seems to work, I get a bounce back when I mail to it. Does anyone have any current email address for Durl? Or also, does anyone have more information about what happened with IRV in Urbana or how to pick the torch back up? (the article seems to say that it kinda petered out in 2008) The folks over at Illinois Ranked Choice Voting (which is mainly comprised of volunteers in CU area) is looking to re-ignite the conversation and potentially work towards getting Urbana to switch. --- James M_______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmedina67 at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 23:58:02 2018 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (Karen Medina) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 18:58:02 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Instant Runoff Voting in Urbana 2007/08? In-Reply-To: <754776836.608527.1530313253598@mail.yahoo.com> References: <754776836.608527.1530313253598@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi James M, IRV and RCV are great. I was not aware there was a group working for RCV. I am assuming you are new to town? The Green Party and AWARE and several groups would probably be interested in what you have to say, especially if you think there is a chance for either. Both established parties are dead-set against it. My personal opinion is that Esther Patt is an amazing person and a great political mind, but long-term the political arc of both established parties is bending the same wrong way. Carl E and Karen A -- possible AWARE on the Air guest ? -karen m On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 6:00 PM, Dianna Visek via Peace-discuss wrote: > I worked with Durl on this back then. > > The mainstream Democrats were extremely opposed to IRV and told folks all > kinds of terrible things about what would happen. There were people at the > township meeting who had absolutely no understanding about what they were > voting for, but had been told they had to be there. One older African > American lady told me that IRV would take away our civil rights. And we > were only asking to put an advisory referendum on the ballot. Even if it > passed, the City wouldn't have to actually do anything. > > Esther Patt was upfront about their opposition. She said, "We worked for 20 > years to take over the city. Why would we risk changing things now?" > On Friday, June 29, 2018, 1:13:36 PM CDT, James M. via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > > > I ran across this article in the publici talking about IRV in Urbana: > > (seems to be down at the moment): > http://publici.ucimc.org/a-brief-history-of-instant-runoff-voting-in-urbana-municipal-elections/ > > Web Archive Link: > https://web.archive.org/web/20160809204842/http://publici.ucimc.org/a-brief-history-of-instant-runoff-voting-in-urbana-municipal-elections/ > > > > Doing research, it looks like Durl Kruse was spearheading this. I had found > an email address for him, but it no longer seems to work, I get a bounce > back when I mail to it. Does anyone have any current email address for Durl? > > Or also, does anyone have more information about what happened with IRV in > Urbana or how to pick the torch back up? (the article seems to say that it > kinda petered out in 2008) The folks over at Illinois Ranked Choice Voting > (which is mainly comprised of volunteers in CU area) is looking to re-ignite > the conversation and potentially work towards getting Urbana to switch. > > --- > James M From grapes17 at gmail.com Sat Jun 30 00:20:35 2018 From: grapes17 at gmail.com (James M.) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 19:20:35 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Instant Runoff Voting in Urbana 2007/08? In-Reply-To: References: <754776836.608527.1530313253598@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dianna, thanks for the info, very informative. Karen, I'm a townie, and have been coming out to the AWARE monthly demonstrations for the last year or so whenever I have the opportunity. Love the work you guys do. One of these days I'll make a point to do a guest spot on AWARE. For Illinois Ranked Choice Voting, Ben Chapman is spearheading that initiative. There is no webpage yet, but there is a twitter & FB ( https://www.facebook.com/ReformVotingIllinois). Ben is going to try and tackle things at the state level, and he's asked me to help look into things for Urbana specifically. On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 6:58 PM, Karen Medina wrote: > Hi James M, > > IRV and RCV are great. I was not aware there was a group working for > RCV. I am assuming you are new to town? > > The Green Party and AWARE and several groups would probably be > interested in what you have to say, especially if you think there is a > chance for either. > Both established parties are dead-set against it. > My personal opinion is that Esther Patt is an amazing person and a > great political mind, but long-term the political arc of both > established parties is bending the same wrong way. > > Carl E and Karen A -- possible AWARE on the Air guest ? > > -karen m > > On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 6:00 PM, Dianna Visek via Peace-discuss > wrote: > > I worked with Durl on this back then. > > > > The mainstream Democrats were extremely opposed to IRV and told folks all > > kinds of terrible things about what would happen. There were people at > the > > township meeting who had absolutely no understanding about what they were > > voting for, but had been told they had to be there. One older African > > American lady told me that IRV would take away our civil rights. And we > > were only asking to put an advisory referendum on the ballot. Even if > it > > passed, the City wouldn't have to actually do anything. > > > > Esther Patt was upfront about their opposition. She said, "We worked > for 20 > > years to take over the city. Why would we risk changing things now?" > > > On Friday, June 29, 2018, 1:13:36 PM CDT, James M. via Peace-discuss > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I ran across this article in the publici talking about IRV in Urbana: > > > > (seems to be down at the moment): > > http://publici.ucimc.org/a-brief-history-of-instant- > runoff-voting-in-urbana-municipal-elections/ > > > > Web Archive Link: > > https://web.archive.org/web/20160809204842/http://publici. > ucimc.org/a-brief-history-of-instant-runoff-voting-in- > urbana-municipal-elections/ > > > > > > > > Doing research, it looks like Durl Kruse was spearheading this. I had > found > > an email address for him, but it no longer seems to work, I get a bounce > > back when I mail to it. Does anyone have any current email address for > Durl? > > > > Or also, does anyone have more information about what happened with IRV > in > > Urbana or how to pick the torch back up? (the article seems to say that > it > > kinda petered out in 2008) The folks over at Illinois Ranked Choice > Voting > > (which is mainly comprised of volunteers in CU area) is looking to > re-ignite > > the conversation and potentially work towards getting Urbana to switch. > > > > --- > > James M > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Jun 30 01:05:49 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 01:05:49 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: [Peace] Unaccompanied immigrant children sent to NY are "disappeared" by ICE References: Message-ID: Unaccompanied immigrant children sent to New York are “disappeared” by ICE By Steve Light 29 June 2018 Reports from New York City reveal the Trump administration and its Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) thugs are continuing their attacks on immigrant refugee children. The victims include youth who reached the United States unaccompanied by their parents, as well as children separated from their parents by the US government. NY1 has posted video of children, sent almost 2,000 miles from the Texas border to New York City, being led in the dead of night through East Harlem streets to the Cayuga Center that arranges foster care. This was followed by a report revealing that 466 students from New York City and surrounding counties, who were no longer showing up at their schools between last October and March, had in fact been taken into custody by ICE agents, but the federal government was not reporting this to the schools or to city or state agencies. Late on June 25, a federal judge in San Diego, Dana Sabraw, ordered the government to reunite all children who had been separated from their parents while in ICE detention. However, the injunction resulting from the case brought by the ACLU, acting for separated families, allows the government two weeks before the reunification of children under five must take place, and 30 days before reunification for older children. An attorney for the Justice Department argued that federal agencies should be given time since the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) sometimes does not always know when a parent has been released. Judge Sabraw said he “was not seeking to interfere with the government’s authority to enforce criminal and immigration laws,” according to the Wall Street Journal. New York’s Mayor Bill de Blasio and Governor Andrew Cuomo confirmed on June 20 that they did not know how many children were sent to New York or where they were being housed, according to the Daily News. The New York consulates for Honduras and El Salvador also said they did not know how many of their child citizens were involved or how to reach their relatives. “The children included a 9-year-old boy from Honduras who had come alone on a bus from Texas, and a child as young as 9 months old,” the mayor said. The concurrent revelation of the ICE arrest in the New York area of “unaccompanied minors,” who had already been under the supervision of the ORR, only became public knowledge by coincidence. According to the Commissioner of the Mayor’s Office of Immigration Affairs, Bitta Mostofi, “Some sort of initial awareness to us that this was happening was because we were notified by schools, because kids didn’t show up to schools the next day,” the Daily News reported. These were children who had made the treacherous crossing into the US unaccompanied and were detained and then sent to New York City to be held with other children in foster-care type detention facilities run by ORR, an agency within the Department of Health and Human Services, until relatives believed to be in the area are found to act as sponsors. Explaining the significance of ICE, an agency within the Department of Homeland Security, taking custody, Eve Stotland, Director of Legal Services at The Door community service centers, said, “A young person is in something that looks like foster care one day and then the next day they’re in something that looks like prison, with adults.” Many were detained by ICE merely because they turned 18. In other cases, they may have been released by ORR to a sponsor but re-arrested by ICE, often on vague allegations of gang connections, members of the Legal Aid Society told the Daily News, even though the children may have fled to the US to escape violence by MS-13. In other words, their “association” with the gangs impels them to flee, and then subjects them to imprisonment once detained in the United States. Such circumstances make it even more difficult for parents and children to be able to locate each other. The Washington Post reported “bureaucratic errors that leave government officials unaware whether a child was separated from their family or had arrived at the border by themselves.” Only two children of 300 families represented by the Texas Civil Rights Project have been tracked down. Identification numbers began to be given to families more than a week ago, according to USA Today, but social media comments pointed out that photos of children with numbers on their sleeves emphasized the parallel to prisons, and even to the numbering of Nazi concentration camp prisoners. However, since there was no system for tracking parents and children before that, government databases may not be able to link families. The horrendous toll of these inhumane policies is seen in an account on WNYC News, in which Dr. Michael Katz, CEO of New York City Health and Hospital, reported that eight immigrant children were brought by their government-appointed guardians to North Central Bronx Hospital and another four were brought to Bellevue Hospital. Dr. Ruth Gerson of Bellevue stated that at least one child was suicidal and others had been injuring themselves, with apparent psychotic symptoms, hearing voices and seeing things found to be related to the separation from their parents. The guardians do not, of course, know the children’s medical histories. The psychiatrists feel helpless as “good treatment really should be about giving them treatment within the context of putting their family back together.” The children who in many cases are being lost track of would be more correctly termed “disappeared,” as was the practice of the military regimes in Chile and Argentina in regard to political prisoners. That is in fact the proper term for these immigrants, jailed for seeking asylum in the United States, and doubly punished by having their children removed. Even if children are no longer taken from parents, ICE raids and deportations are continuing to take parents from children, including those born as citizens in the US. As of May, there was a backlog of more than 700,000 cases in federal immigration courts. Cases of detained families could take months or years to be heard. Meanwhile, the US military has been put on notice to build detention/concentration camps for 120,000 immigrants. Using alleged danger from the protests against the anti-immigrant policies and family separations as an excuse, ICE announced that in New York City it would not hold in-person hearings in court for detained immigrants for the foreseeable future. Instead there would be hearings via video conference. Since the detainees would normally only have a chance to meet their lawyer in person just before the hearings, and since judges would not be able to directly assess the credibility of the detainees in person, this would make their situation even more detrimental, the managing director of the Immigration Practice for the Bronx Defenders, Sarah Deri Oshiro, has said. WSWS.ORG _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Jun 30 02:11:06 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 21:11:06 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] News from Neptune for 6/29: A Homelessness Edition Message-ID: NfN notes Show recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XshhoiRxCVI - Homelessness: With the money the US military has wasted or lost track of (dozens of trillions) we could easily afford a national jobs program which would build people a home anywhere in the country. We could also simply give the homeless a home -- no charge, gratis -- on the basis that it's an ethical way to treat the disenfranchised, and cheaper than maintaining homelessness. The TruTV show "Adam Ruins Everything" where comic Adam Conover goes over the history and his own views on some topic, offered an episode on home ownership and homelessness (season 1 episode 19 -- "Adam Ruins Housing"). Conover also continues the discussions from the show on his show: RSS feed: http://maximumfun.org/feeds/are.xml Here's the extended discussion on homelessness: Audio with a still image (because YouTube only hosts "videos"): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n8zivBVpWs Audio track alone: http://media.adknit.com/a/f/90/adam-ruins-everything/tyuvag.1-1.mp3 - "Evicted" by Matthew Desmond http://oceanofpdf.com/pdf-epub-evicted-poverty-and-profit-in-the-american-city-download/ has copies in PDF and ePUB formats available for download gratis. - Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez does not give the anti-war message I wanted to see from the Berniecrat DSA wing of the Democratic Party: That's because Bernie Sanders was never opposed to war and didn't pose any threat to continuing Obama's (and thus G.W. Bush's) wars. Sanders told Meet the Press (see https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/bernie-sanders-would-use-drones-to-fight-terror-542522435844 ) he's down with the drone war. When host Chuck Todd asked Sanders if drones or "special forces" would play a role in his "counter-terror plans", Sanders replied "All of that and more. Look, a drone is a weapon. When it works badly, it is terrible and it is counterproductive. When you blow up a facility or a building which kills women and children, you know what? [...] It’s terrible." and Todd asked, "But you’re comfortable with the idea of using drones if you think you’ve isolated an important terrorist?", and Sanders replied, "Yes.". See https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/11/bernie-sanders-drones-counter-terror Sanders also said he was down with prosecuting someone recognized as a truth-teller by NfN, Edward Snowden in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sih4pGLU6Y (October 21, 2015 interview with Mike Malloy based on https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/05/15/sand-m15.html ): Malloy rightly points out that while Sanders supports prosecuting Snowden, Sanders has not mentioned supporting prosecuting the companies and government officials who spied and spy on us. A quote from https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/05/15/sand-m15.html : > On the massive NSA spying first revealed by Edward Snowden, Sanders has > staked out a position virtually indistinguishable from the public > position of Barack Obama, “welcoming” the opportunity to “discuss” > government spying while demanding that Snowden be punished for revealing > it. “The information disclosed by Edward Snowden has been extremely > important,” Sanders said in early 2014. "On the other hand, there is no > debate that Mr. Snowden violated an oath and committed a crime,” for > which he called only for a “lenient” sentence. Last July, Sanders > co-sponsored the Obama-supported USA FREEDOM Act in the Senate, which > would regularize NSA spying under the guise of regulating it. So when someone brings us intelligence information used in prosecuting the "war on terror" (recall that cell phone geolocation data is collected and used for targeting drone bombs) and exposes the sham privacy protection we get from media corporations and the US government (who work with each other, so there's no real point in distinguishing between the two as if one is better for our interests than the other), Sanders is fine with stopping the means by which we come to know what our government is doing to us and in our name. - CounterPunch article "Challenging Barbara Lee From the Left" https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/06/29/challenging-barbara-lee-from-the-left/ - How Paul Findley lost to Dick Durbin in 1982: From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Findley According to the New York Times, in 1982 Findley narrowly lost his bid for re-election for a number of reasons: "a competent opponent, redistricting, the economic recession, and pro-Israel groups support to his challenger," which allowed Findley's challenger to match him in spending.[2] During the campaign, "a former AIPAC [American Israel Public Affairs Committee] president called him 'a dangerous enemy of Israel.'"[3] Findley confirmed that his 1982 campaign raised "almost exactly the same sum" as that of his opponent.[4] [2] https://www.nytimes.com/1985/07/14/books/in-short-nonfiction-111845.html [3] http://www.amconmag.com/article/2007/dec/03/00006/ [4] They Dare to Speak Out: People and Institutions Confront Israel's Lobby, Paul Findley, Lawrence Hill Books, 1989, p. 22 Download the full text at https://archive.org/details/They-Dare-To-Speak-Out-Paul-Findley here's the excerpt from page 22, Findley wrote: > This time re-election was not to be. I lost by 1,407 votes, less than > one percent of the total cast. In a vote that close, almost any negative > development could account for the difference. The attack by pro-Israel > activists was only one of several factors. Nevertheless, the American > Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), Washington's principal > pro-Israel lobby, claimed credit for my defeat. In a report to a Jewish > gathering in Austin, Texas, a few days after election day, Thomas A. > Dine, the organization's executive director, said his forces brought 150 > students from the University of Illinois to "pound the pavements and > knock on doors" and concluded, ''This is a case where the Jewish lobby > made a difference. We beat the odds and defeated Findley." He later > estimated that $685,000 of the $750,000 raised by Durbin came from Jews. > With my supporters raising almost exactly the same sum, the contest once > again set a new state record for total spending. - June 28, 2018 letter from Rep. Durbin et al to VP Pence https://www.foreign.senate.gov/download/rm-letter-to-pence-northern-triangle&download=1 - How Trump got into office: an anti-war vote from swing state residents say researchers Kriner and Shen Study: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2989040 Coverage: https://www.thenation.com/article/new-study-communities-most-affected-by-war-turned-to-trump-in-2016/ Coverage: https://theintercept.com/2017/07/10/study-finds-relationship-between-high-military-casualties-and-votes-for-trump-over-clinton/ - "The Death of a Once Great City: The fall of New York and the urban crisis of affluence" by Kevin Baker https://harpers.org/archive/2018/07/the-death-of-new-york-city-gentrification/ - DemocracyNow.org interview with Tom Perez about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez https://www.democracynow.org/2018/6/29/dnc_chair_tom_perez_on_alexandria Please note how Goodman accepts whatever half-truth or lie Perez gives her: > AMY GOODMAN: Your response to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, her victory > over— > TOM PEREZ: Well, she ran a spectacular campaign. My two daughters texted > me that night their excitement. I left a message for her about my > excitement. She’s inspiring a lot of— > AMY GOODMAN: DNC didn’t support her, though, supported Joe Crowley. > TOM PEREZ: There was a—we didn’t get involved. No, we didn’t support—we > didn’t support either candidate. We were not involved in that race. How does the DNC support Crowley without "getting involved"? Without "supporting either candidate"? One might hope Goodman would invite Perez in for a proper long-form interview where she can challenge his words. Clearly Perez is not telling us the truth. I suspect DN just isn't interested in challenging the Democrats which makes them look bad. Hence DN's unquestioned anti-Republican coverage of immigration policy separating children from parents (even though some DN interviewed people about this policy during Obama's presidency!), DN's ongoing and unquestioned acceptance of Russiagate (the only challenge there comes from guests who bring it up unprompted by Goodman and co., like Glenn Greenwald does), and DN's lack of coverage of the DNC lawsuit from the Bernie Sanders supporters. That DNC lawsuit features DNC corporation lawyer Bruce Spiva saying, quite bluntly, that the DNC corporation could dictate the party representatives. So, presumably, we are supposed to feel privileged that we get any meager say in their candidates by way of primary party elections: DNC corporation attorney Bruce Spiva from http://jampac.us/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/042517cw2.pdf : > [I]f you had a charity where somebody said, Hey, I'm gonna take this > money and use it for a specific purpose, X, and they pocketed it and > stole the money, of course that's different. But here, where you have a > party that's saying, We're gonna, you know, choose our standard bearer, > and we're gonna follow these general rules of the road, which we are > voluntarily deciding, we could have — and we could have voluntarily > decided that, Look, we're gonna go into back rooms like they used to and > smoke cigars and pick the candidate that way. That's not the way it was > done. But they could have. And that would have also been their right, > and it would drag the Court well into party politics, internal party > politics to answer those questions. - Media Coverage of Trump Immigration Policies Ignores Democrats’ Complicity by Roberto Lovato Video: https://www.youtube.com/embed/yU7uv_BY7Xg Transcript might appear later at: https://therealnews.com/stories/media-coverage-of-trump-immigration-policies-ignores-democrats-complicity - Unauthorized Disclosure interview with Matthew Hoh, former Marine and diplomat from the State Department, who resigned in protest in 2009 over the Afghanistan War: Audio: https://traffic.libsyn.com/unauthorizeddisclosure/S5E20edit.mp3 Description and more info: https://shadowproof.com/2018/06/24/interview-matthew-hoh-trump-military-industrial-complex/ Show: https://unauthorizeddisclosure.libsyn.com/ RSS feed: https://unauthorizeddisclosure.libsyn.com/rss -JBNicholson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Jun 30 03:07:26 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 22:07:26 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Instant Runoff Voting in Urbana 2007/08? In-Reply-To: References: <754776836.608527.1530313253598@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The local tv program ‘AWARE on the Air’ was designed as a panel discussion of AWARE’s particular concerns, viz., US war-making and racist propaganda about its victims. Instant Runoff Voting in Urbana sounds like a good idea, but I’m not sure it fits AOTA’s remit (or AWARE’s). —CGE > On Jun 29, 2018, at 6:58 PM, Karen Medina via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Hi James M, > > IRV and RCV are great. I was not aware there was a group working for > RCV. I am assuming you are new to town? > > The Green Party and AWARE and several groups would probably be > interested in what you have to say, especially if you think there is a > chance for either. > Both established parties are dead-set against it. > My personal opinion is that Esther Patt is an amazing person and a > great political mind, but long-term the political arc of both > established parties is bending the same wrong way. > > Carl E and Karen A -- possible AWARE on the Air guest ? > > -karen m > > On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 6:00 PM, Dianna Visek via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> I worked with Durl on this back then. >> >> The mainstream Democrats were extremely opposed to IRV and told folks all >> kinds of terrible things about what would happen. There were people at the >> township meeting who had absolutely no understanding about what they were >> voting for, but had been told they had to be there. One older African >> American lady told me that IRV would take away our civil rights. And we >> were only asking to put an advisory referendum on the ballot. Even if it >> passed, the City wouldn't have to actually do anything. >> >> Esther Patt was upfront about their opposition. She said, "We worked for 20 >> years to take over the city. Why would we risk changing things now?" > >> On Friday, June 29, 2018, 1:13:36 PM CDT, James M. via Peace-discuss >> wrote: >> >> >> >> I ran across this article in the publici talking about IRV in Urbana: >> >> (seems to be down at the moment): >> http://publici.ucimc.org/a-brief-history-of-instant-runoff-voting-in-urbana-municipal-elections/ >> >> Web Archive Link: >> https://web.archive.org/web/20160809204842/http://publici.ucimc.org/a-brief-history-of-instant-runoff-voting-in-urbana-municipal-elections/ >> >> >> >> Doing research, it looks like Durl Kruse was spearheading this. I had found >> an email address for him, but it no longer seems to work, I get a bounce >> back when I mail to it. Does anyone have any current email address for Durl? >> >> Or also, does anyone have more information about what happened with IRV in >> Urbana or how to pick the torch back up? (the article seems to say that it >> kinda petered out in 2008) The folks over at Illinois Ranked Choice Voting >> (which is mainly comprised of volunteers in CU area) is looking to re-ignite >> the conversation and potentially work towards getting Urbana to switch. >> >> --- >> James M > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From bjornsona at ameritech.net Sat Jun 30 03:26:02 2018 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 22:26:02 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Families_Belong_Together=E2=80=94Attend?= =?utf-8?q?_a_June_30_Event!_=7C_MoveOn=2Eorg?= Message-ID: https://act.moveon.org/event/families-belong-together/?source=FBTsite622 Walk to support unaccompanied minor immigrant children fleeing from violence. 1 p.m. Champaign Public Library to Green and Neil. Saturday 6.30.18   Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Jun 30 13:32:34 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 13:32:34 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune Message-ID: https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2018/06/28/as-election-day-approached-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-removed-antiwar-foreign-policy-section-from-her-we -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From naiman at justforeignpolicy.org Sat Jun 30 14:30:20 2018 From: naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (Robert Naiman) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 09:30:20 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://ocasio2018.com/issues [...] A Peace Economy Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States has entangled itself in war and occupation throughout the Middle East and North Africa. As of 2018, we are currently involved in military action in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia. Hundreds of thousands of civilians in these countries have been killed either as collateral damage from American strikes or from the instability caused by U.S. interventions. Millions more have fled their broken countries, contributing to the global refugee crisis. This continued action damages America’s legitimacy as a force for good, creates new generations of potential terrorists, and erodes American prosperity. In times when we’re told that there’s not enough money, Republicans and corporate Democrats seem to find the cash to fund a $1.1 trillion fighter jet program or a $1.7 trillion-dollar nuclear weapon “modernization” program. The costs are extreme: the Pentagon’s budget for 2018 is $700 billion dollars: to continue fighting an endless War on Terror and refighting the Cold War with a new arms race that nobody can win. According to the Constitution, the right to declare war belongs to the legislative body, and yet many of these global acts of aggression have never once been voted on by Congress. In some cases, we've even acted unilaterally, without the backing of the United Nations. America should not be in the business of destabilizing countries. While we may see ourselves as liberators, the world increasingly views us as occupiers and aggressors. Alexandria believes that we must end the "forever war" by bringing our troops home, and ending the air strikes that perpetuate the cycle of terrorism throughout the world. By bringing our troops home, we can begin to heal the wounds we're opening by continuing military engagement. We can begin to repair our image. We can reunite military families, separated by repeated deployments. We can become stronger by building stronger diplomatic and economic ties, and by saving our armed forces only for when they're truly needed. [...] Robert Naiman Policy Director Just Foreign Policy www.justforeignpolicy.org naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (202) 448-2898 x1 On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2018/06/28/as-election-day- > approached-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-removed-antiwar- > foreign-policy-section-from-her-we > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Sat Jun 30 16:15:51 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 11:15:51 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8683FD46-5C6D-42B5-8B65-CCAF6BD2C0F1@illinois.edu> This is the piece removed from her website, wasn’t it? Has it been put back? > On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:30 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss wrote: > > https://ocasio2018.com/issues > > [...] > > A Peace Economy > Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States has entangled itself in war and occupation throughout the Middle East and North Africa. As of 2018, we are currently involved in military action in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia. Hundreds of thousands of civilians in these countries have been killed either as collateral damage from American strikes or from the instability caused by U.S. interventions. Millions more have fled their broken countries, contributing to the global refugee crisis. > > This continued action damages America’s legitimacy as a force for good, creates new generations of potential terrorists, and erodes American prosperity. In times when we’re told that there’s not enough money, Republicans and corporate Democrats seem to find the cash to fund a $1.1 trillion fighter jet program or a $1.7 trillion-dollar nuclear weapon “modernization” program. The costs are extreme: the Pentagon’s budget for 2018 is $700 billion dollars: to continue fighting an endless War on Terror and refighting the Cold War with a new arms race that nobody can win. > > According to the Constitution, the right to declare war belongs to the legislative body, and yet many of these global acts of aggression have never once been voted on by Congress. In some cases, we've even acted unilaterally, without the backing of the United Nations. > > America should not be in the business of destabilizing countries. While we may see ourselves as liberators, the world increasingly views us as occupiers and aggressors. Alexandria believes that we must end the "forever war" by bringing our troops home, and ending the air strikes that perpetuate the cycle of terrorism throughout the world. > > By bringing our troops home, we can begin to heal the wounds we're opening by continuing military engagement. We can begin to repair our image. We can reunite military families, separated by repeated deployments. We can become stronger by building stronger diplomatic and economic ties, and by saving our armed forces only for when they're truly needed. > > [...] > > Robert Naiman > Policy Director > Just Foreign Policy > www.justforeignpolicy.org > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org > (202) 448-2898 x1 > > On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: > https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2018/06/28/as-election-day-approached-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-removed-antiwar-foreign-policy-section-from-her-we > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Sat Jun 30 16:15:51 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 11:15:51 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8683FD46-5C6D-42B5-8B65-CCAF6BD2C0F1@illinois.edu> This is the piece removed from her website, wasn’t it? Has it been put back? > On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:30 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss wrote: > > https://ocasio2018.com/issues > > [...] > > A Peace Economy > Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States has entangled itself in war and occupation throughout the Middle East and North Africa. As of 2018, we are currently involved in military action in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia. Hundreds of thousands of civilians in these countries have been killed either as collateral damage from American strikes or from the instability caused by U.S. interventions. Millions more have fled their broken countries, contributing to the global refugee crisis. > > This continued action damages America’s legitimacy as a force for good, creates new generations of potential terrorists, and erodes American prosperity. In times when we’re told that there’s not enough money, Republicans and corporate Democrats seem to find the cash to fund a $1.1 trillion fighter jet program or a $1.7 trillion-dollar nuclear weapon “modernization” program. The costs are extreme: the Pentagon’s budget for 2018 is $700 billion dollars: to continue fighting an endless War on Terror and refighting the Cold War with a new arms race that nobody can win. > > According to the Constitution, the right to declare war belongs to the legislative body, and yet many of these global acts of aggression have never once been voted on by Congress. In some cases, we've even acted unilaterally, without the backing of the United Nations. > > America should not be in the business of destabilizing countries. While we may see ourselves as liberators, the world increasingly views us as occupiers and aggressors. Alexandria believes that we must end the "forever war" by bringing our troops home, and ending the air strikes that perpetuate the cycle of terrorism throughout the world. > > By bringing our troops home, we can begin to heal the wounds we're opening by continuing military engagement. We can begin to repair our image. We can reunite military families, separated by repeated deployments. We can become stronger by building stronger diplomatic and economic ties, and by saving our armed forces only for when they're truly needed. > > [...] > > Robert Naiman > Policy Director > Just Foreign Policy > www.justforeignpolicy.org > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org > (202) 448-2898 x1 > > On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: > https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2018/06/28/as-election-day-approached-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-removed-antiwar-foreign-policy-section-from-her-we > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Jun 30 16:25:18 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 11:25:18 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Reminder: Medea Benjamin Of Code Pink Book Signing Sat.! In-Reply-To: References: <5b3665ad56d33_99de63ef5c7582f@worker.ami.nbuild.prd.useast1.3dna.io.mail> <586d872e-b6a3-86bd-56a9-58320b50b7f1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2D8FF589-64DC-42E0-9731-C93A28C7F5DE@gmail.com> The warning doesn’t seem excessive to me. It’s hot outside. I’m staying inside. Anyone who attends Benjamin’s talk and is willing to report on it on ‘AWARE on the Air’ is invited to the Urbana Public TV studios (the city council chambers) at noon on Tuesday. We record the unrehearsed program noon-1pm. —CGE > On Jun 30, 2018, at 6:09 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: > > There is an “excessive heat warning” today, I would avoid anything outside if possible. > The Medea event fortunately is inside. > > >> On Jun 29, 2018, at 18:09, Stuart Levy > wrote: >> >> Another event which partly overlaps this one on Saturday: >> >> 1:00pm - 2:00pm #FamiliesBelongTogether rally at Champaign Public Library >> >> https://www.facebook.com/events/194005744773697/ >> >> This is one of a nationwide series of rallies in support of humane immigration policies. >> At 1pm, people will walk from the library to Green and Neil (about 1 block), carrying signs. >> >> I may try to attend the first part of this rally and then go to McKinley for Medea Benjamin's 1:30pm-3pm event. Anyone else want to do likewise? >> >> On 06/29/2018 12:37 PM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Come See Co-Founder Of Code Pink >>>> And PDA Advisory Board Member >>>> >>>> >>>> Medea Benjamin Book Signing >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> U.S. relations with Iran have been fraught for decades, but under the Trump Administration tensions are rising to startling levels. Medea Benjamin, one of the best-known 21st century peace activists, offers the incredible history of how a probable alliance became a bitter antagonism. >>>> >>>> Join us as Medea discusses her most recent book, "Inside Iran: The Real History And Politics Of The Islamic Republic Of Iran". Introduction by Prof. Francis Boyle. >>>> >>>> When: Saturday, June 30, 2018. 1:30pm-3pm >>>> Where: McKinley Presbyterian Church, 801 S 5th St (5th and Daniels), Champaign, IL 61820 (Map ) >>>> >>>> Medea will offer remarks, answer questions, and autograph books for sale. >>>> >>>> Co-sponsors: Just Foreign Policy, Party for Socialism and Liberation, Prairie Greens, Progressive Democrats of America >>>> >>>> Please reply to this email to RSVP so we're sure to have enough space set aside. >>>> >>>> Hope to see you there! >>>> >>>> Deb Schrishuhn >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Paid for by Progressive Democrats of America (http://www.pdamerica.org ) >>>> Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace mailing list >>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Jun 30 16:31:28 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 16:31:28 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: Reminder: Medea Benjamin Of Code Pink Book Signing Sat.! References: Message-ID: [http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/560b0f33ec8d8379d1000003/attachments/original/1444050888/National2.jpg?1444050888] Come See Co-Founder Of Code Pink And PDA Advisory Board Member [Medea_Headshot.JPG] Medea Benjamin Book Signing U.S. relations with Iran have been fraught for decades, but under the Trump Administration tensions are rising to startling levels. Medea Benjamin, one of the best-known 21st century peace activists, offers the incredible history of how a probable alliance became a bitter antagonism. Join us as Medea discusses her most recent book, "Inside Iran: The Real History And Politics Of The Islamic Republic Of Iran". Introduction by Prof. Francis Boyle. When: Saturday, June 30, 2018. 1:30pm-3pm Where: McKinley Presbyterian Church, 801 S 5th St (5th and Daniels), Champaign, IL 61820 (Map) Medea will offer remarks, answer questions, and autograph books for sale. Co-sponsors: Just Foreign Policy, Party for Socialism and Liberation, Prairie Greens, Progressive Democrats of America Please reply to this email to RSVP so we're sure to have enough space set aside. Hope to see you there! Deb Schrishuhn [Facebook.jpg] [Twitter.jpg] [Logo-Flickr.jpg] [YouTube.jpg] [pinterest3.jpg] Paid for by Progressive Democrats of America (http://www.pdamerica.org) Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuartnlevy at gmail.com Sat Jun 30 17:38:40 2018 From: stuartnlevy at gmail.com (stuartnlevy) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 12:38:40 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune In-Reply-To: <8683FD46-5C6D-42B5-8B65-CCAF6BD2C0F1@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <5b37c022.1c69fb81.bc5ef.400a@mx.google.com> It is there right now. The antiwar.com thread quotes Ocasio on June 27th that it hadn't been deliberately removed, and she was looking into it.  So she did, and the statement is there. I haven't compared it with the previous version, but David Swanson says it is both lengthened and improved.  He supports it and urges his readers to let her know they do too.  -- Stuart -------- Original message --------From: "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" Date: 6/30/18 11:15 (GMT-06:00) To: Robert Naiman , peace-discuss at anti-war.net Cc: peace , "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" , Karen Aram Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune This is the piece removed from her website, wasn’t it? Has it been put back? On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:30 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss wrote: https://ocasio2018.com/issues [...] A Peace Economy Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States has entangled itself in war and occupation throughout the Middle East and North Africa. As of 2018, we are currently involved in military action in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia. Hundreds of thousands of civilians in these countries have been killed either as collateral damage from American strikes or from the instability caused by U.S. interventions. Millions more have fled their broken countries, contributing to the global refugee crisis. This continued action damages America’s legitimacy as a force for good, creates new generations of potential terrorists, and erodes American prosperity. In times when we’re told that there’s not enough money, Republicans and corporate Democrats seem to find the cash to fund a $1.1 trillion fighter jet program or a $1.7 trillion-dollar nuclear weapon “modernization” program. The costs are extreme: the Pentagon’s budget for 2018 is $700 billion dollars: to continue fighting an endless War on Terror and refighting the Cold War with a new arms race that nobody can win. According to the Constitution, the right to declare war belongs to the legislative body, and yet many of these global acts of aggression have never once been voted on by Congress. In some cases, we've even acted unilaterally, without the backing of the United Nations. America should not be in the business of destabilizing countries. While we may see ourselves as liberators, the world increasingly views us as occupiers and aggressors. Alexandria believes that we must end the "forever war" by bringing our troops home, and ending the air strikes that perpetuate the cycle of terrorism throughout the world. By bringing our troops home, we can begin to heal the wounds we're opening by continuing military engagement. We can begin to repair our image. We can reunite military families, separated by repeated deployments. We can become stronger by building stronger diplomatic and economic ties, and by saving our armed forces only for when they're truly needed. [...] Robert Naiman Policy Director Just Foreign Policy www.justforeignpolicy.org naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (202) 448-2898 x1 On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2018/06/28/as-election-day-approached-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-removed-antiwar-foreign-policy-section-from-her-we _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuartnlevy at gmail.com Sat Jun 30 17:38:40 2018 From: stuartnlevy at gmail.com (stuartnlevy) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 12:38:40 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune In-Reply-To: <8683FD46-5C6D-42B5-8B65-CCAF6BD2C0F1@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <5b37c022.1c69fb81.bc5ef.400a@mx.google.com> It is there right now. The antiwar.com thread quotes Ocasio on June 27th that it hadn't been deliberately removed, and she was looking into it.  So she did, and the statement is there. I haven't compared it with the previous version, but David Swanson says it is both lengthened and improved.  He supports it and urges his readers to let her know they do too.  -- Stuart -------- Original message --------From: "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" Date: 6/30/18 11:15 (GMT-06:00) To: Robert Naiman , peace-discuss at anti-war.net Cc: peace , "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" , Karen Aram Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune This is the piece removed from her website, wasn’t it? Has it been put back? On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:30 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss wrote: https://ocasio2018.com/issues [...] A Peace Economy Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States has entangled itself in war and occupation throughout the Middle East and North Africa. As of 2018, we are currently involved in military action in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia. Hundreds of thousands of civilians in these countries have been killed either as collateral damage from American strikes or from the instability caused by U.S. interventions. Millions more have fled their broken countries, contributing to the global refugee crisis. This continued action damages America’s legitimacy as a force for good, creates new generations of potential terrorists, and erodes American prosperity. In times when we’re told that there’s not enough money, Republicans and corporate Democrats seem to find the cash to fund a $1.1 trillion fighter jet program or a $1.7 trillion-dollar nuclear weapon “modernization” program. The costs are extreme: the Pentagon’s budget for 2018 is $700 billion dollars: to continue fighting an endless War on Terror and refighting the Cold War with a new arms race that nobody can win. According to the Constitution, the right to declare war belongs to the legislative body, and yet many of these global acts of aggression have never once been voted on by Congress. In some cases, we've even acted unilaterally, without the backing of the United Nations. America should not be in the business of destabilizing countries. While we may see ourselves as liberators, the world increasingly views us as occupiers and aggressors. Alexandria believes that we must end the "forever war" by bringing our troops home, and ending the air strikes that perpetuate the cycle of terrorism throughout the world. By bringing our troops home, we can begin to heal the wounds we're opening by continuing military engagement. We can begin to repair our image. We can reunite military families, separated by repeated deployments. We can become stronger by building stronger diplomatic and economic ties, and by saving our armed forces only for when they're truly needed. [...] Robert Naiman Policy Director Just Foreign Policy www.justforeignpolicy.org naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (202) 448-2898 x1 On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2018/06/28/as-election-day-approached-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-removed-antiwar-foreign-policy-section-from-her-we _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Sat Jun 30 18:34:26 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 13:34:26 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune In-Reply-To: <5b37c022.1c69fb81.bc5ef.400a@mx.google.com> References: <5b37c022.1c69fb81.bc5ef.400a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <150A2106-3DCF-4E61-A492-324D19DAEAA1@illinois.edu> Which statement do you suppose represents the position of the Democrats in Congress? This, or the letter from Durbin et al. to Pence? > —CGE > On Jun 30, 2018, at 12:38 PM, stuartnlevy via Peace-discuss wrote: > > It is there right now. > > The antiwar.com thread quotes Ocasio on June 27th that it hadn't been deliberately removed, and she was looking into it. So she did, and the statement is there. > > I haven't compared it with the previous version, but David Swanson says it is both lengthened and improved. He supports it and urges his readers to let her know they do too. > > > > > -- Stuart > > -------- Original message -------- > From: "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" > Date: 6/30/18 11:15 (GMT-06:00) > To: Robert Naiman , peace-discuss at anti-war.net > Cc: peace , "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" , Karen Aram > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune > > This is the piece removed from her website, wasn’t it? Has it been put back? > > > >> On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:30 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> >> https://ocasio2018.com/issues >> >> [...] >> >> A Peace Economy >> Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States has entangled itself in war and occupation throughout the Middle East and North Africa. As of 2018, we are currently involved in military action in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia. Hundreds of thousands of civilians in these countries have been killed either as collateral damage from American strikes or from the instability caused by U.S. interventions. Millions more have fled their broken countries, contributing to the global refugee crisis. >> >> This continued action damages America’s legitimacy as a force for good, creates new generations of potential terrorists, and erodes American prosperity. In times when we’re told that there’s not enough money, Republicans and corporate Democrats seem to find the cash to fund a $1.1 trillion fighter jet program or a $1.7 trillion-dollar nuclear weapon “modernization” program. The costs are extreme: the Pentagon’s budget for 2018 is $700 billion dollars: to continue fighting an endless War on Terror and refighting the Cold War with a new arms race that nobody can win. >> >> According to the Constitution, the right to declare war belongs to the legislative body, and yet many of these global acts of aggression have never once been voted on by Congress. In some cases, we've even acted unilaterally, without the backing of the United Nations. >> >> America should not be in the business of destabilizing countries. While we may see ourselves as liberators, the world increasingly views us as occupiers and aggressors. Alexandria believes that we must end the "forever war" by bringing our troops home, and ending the air strikes that perpetuate the cycle of terrorism throughout the world. >> >> By bringing our troops home, we can begin to heal the wounds we're opening by continuing military engagement. We can begin to repair our image. We can reunite military families, separated by repeated deployments. We can become stronger by building stronger diplomatic and economic ties, and by saving our armed forces only for when they're truly needed. >> >> [...] >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2018/06/28/as-election-day-approached-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-removed-antiwar-foreign-policy-section-from-her-we >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Sat Jun 30 18:34:26 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 13:34:26 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune In-Reply-To: <5b37c022.1c69fb81.bc5ef.400a@mx.google.com> References: <5b37c022.1c69fb81.bc5ef.400a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <150A2106-3DCF-4E61-A492-324D19DAEAA1@illinois.edu> Which statement do you suppose represents the position of the Democrats in Congress? This, or the letter from Durbin et al. to Pence? > —CGE > On Jun 30, 2018, at 12:38 PM, stuartnlevy via Peace-discuss wrote: > > It is there right now. > > The antiwar.com thread quotes Ocasio on June 27th that it hadn't been deliberately removed, and she was looking into it. So she did, and the statement is there. > > I haven't compared it with the previous version, but David Swanson says it is both lengthened and improved. He supports it and urges his readers to let her know they do too. > > > > > -- Stuart > > -------- Original message -------- > From: "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" > Date: 6/30/18 11:15 (GMT-06:00) > To: Robert Naiman , peace-discuss at anti-war.net > Cc: peace , "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" , Karen Aram > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune > > This is the piece removed from her website, wasn’t it? Has it been put back? > > > >> On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:30 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> >> https://ocasio2018.com/issues >> >> [...] >> >> A Peace Economy >> Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States has entangled itself in war and occupation throughout the Middle East and North Africa. As of 2018, we are currently involved in military action in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia. Hundreds of thousands of civilians in these countries have been killed either as collateral damage from American strikes or from the instability caused by U.S. interventions. Millions more have fled their broken countries, contributing to the global refugee crisis. >> >> This continued action damages America’s legitimacy as a force for good, creates new generations of potential terrorists, and erodes American prosperity. In times when we’re told that there’s not enough money, Republicans and corporate Democrats seem to find the cash to fund a $1.1 trillion fighter jet program or a $1.7 trillion-dollar nuclear weapon “modernization” program. The costs are extreme: the Pentagon’s budget for 2018 is $700 billion dollars: to continue fighting an endless War on Terror and refighting the Cold War with a new arms race that nobody can win. >> >> According to the Constitution, the right to declare war belongs to the legislative body, and yet many of these global acts of aggression have never once been voted on by Congress. In some cases, we've even acted unilaterally, without the backing of the United Nations. >> >> America should not be in the business of destabilizing countries. While we may see ourselves as liberators, the world increasingly views us as occupiers and aggressors. Alexandria believes that we must end the "forever war" by bringing our troops home, and ending the air strikes that perpetuate the cycle of terrorism throughout the world. >> >> By bringing our troops home, we can begin to heal the wounds we're opening by continuing military engagement. We can begin to repair our image. We can reunite military families, separated by repeated deployments. We can become stronger by building stronger diplomatic and economic ties, and by saving our armed forces only for when they're truly needed. >> >> [...] >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2018/06/28/as-election-day-approached-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-removed-antiwar-foreign-policy-section-from-her-we >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Jun 30 20:57:58 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 15:57:58 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune In-Reply-To: <5b37c022.1c69fb81.bc5ef.400a@mx.google.com> References: <5b37c022.1c69fb81.bc5ef.400a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <58095280-B49F-4F35-AEF2-588686C419F1@gmail.com> https://americaneveryman.com/2018/06/30/ajamu-baraka-pushes-dementer-with-the-ocasio-cortez-placebo-my-position-statement-on-ocasio-cortez/#more-44205 “...Ocasio scrubbed her website of her anti-war message and she also scrubbed it of any mention of her support of Net Neutrality. She did an interview with the Intercept where she talked about “Russian aggression” in Europe and elsewhere (Ukraine and Syria being the implications) and also mentioned the lies about Russia planning to hack the French election (which never happened) and them “interfering” in ours (which also never happened) She went on to give Barack Obama a pass for his illegal wars of aggression and his “surge” in Afghanistan…” Another sheep-dog like Bernie? Or better than that? —CGE > On Jun 30, 2018, at 12:38 PM, stuartnlevy via Peace-discuss wrote: > > It is there right now. > > The antiwar.com thread quotes Ocasio on June 27th that it hadn't been deliberately removed, and she was looking into it. So she did, and the statement is there. > > I haven't compared it with the previous version, but David Swanson says it is both lengthened and improved. He supports it and urges his readers to let her know they do too. > > > > > -- Stuart > > -------- Original message -------- > From: "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" > Date: 6/30/18 11:15 (GMT-06:00) > To: Robert Naiman , peace-discuss at anti-war.net > Cc: peace , "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" , Karen Aram > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune > > This is the piece removed from her website, wasn’t it? Has it been put back? > > > >> On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:30 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> https://ocasio2018.com/issues >> >> [...] >> >> A Peace Economy >> Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States has entangled itself in war and occupation throughout the Middle East and North Africa. As of 2018, we are currently involved in military action in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia. Hundreds of thousands of civilians in these countries have been killed either as collateral damage from American strikes or from the instability caused by U.S. interventions. Millions more have fled their broken countries, contributing to the global refugee crisis. >> >> This continued action damages America’s legitimacy as a force for good, creates new generations of potential terrorists, and erodes American prosperity. In times when we’re told that there’s not enough money, Republicans and corporate Democrats seem to find the cash to fund a $1.1 trillion fighter jet program or a $1.7 trillion-dollar nuclear weapon “modernization” program. The costs are extreme: the Pentagon’s budget for 2018 is $700 billion dollars: to continue fighting an endless War on Terror and refighting the Cold War with a new arms race that nobody can win. >> >> According to the Constitution, the right to declare war belongs to the legislative body, and yet many of these global acts of aggression have never once been voted on by Congress. In some cases, we've even acted unilaterally, without the backing of the United Nations. >> >> America should not be in the business of destabilizing countries. While we may see ourselves as liberators, the world increasingly views us as occupiers and aggressors. Alexandria believes that we must end the "forever war" by bringing our troops home, and ending the air strikes that perpetuate the cycle of terrorism throughout the world. >> >> By bringing our troops home, we can begin to heal the wounds we're opening by continuing military engagement. We can begin to repair our image. We can reunite military families, separated by repeated deployments. We can become stronger by building stronger diplomatic and economic ties, and by saving our armed forces only for when they're truly needed. >> >> [...] >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2018/06/28/as-election-day-approached-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-removed-antiwar-foreign-policy-section-from-her-we >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Jun 30 20:57:58 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 15:57:58 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune In-Reply-To: <5b37c022.1c69fb81.bc5ef.400a@mx.google.com> References: <5b37c022.1c69fb81.bc5ef.400a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <58095280-B49F-4F35-AEF2-588686C419F1@gmail.com> https://americaneveryman.com/2018/06/30/ajamu-baraka-pushes-dementer-with-the-ocasio-cortez-placebo-my-position-statement-on-ocasio-cortez/#more-44205 “...Ocasio scrubbed her website of her anti-war message and she also scrubbed it of any mention of her support of Net Neutrality. She did an interview with the Intercept where she talked about “Russian aggression” in Europe and elsewhere (Ukraine and Syria being the implications) and also mentioned the lies about Russia planning to hack the French election (which never happened) and them “interfering” in ours (which also never happened) She went on to give Barack Obama a pass for his illegal wars of aggression and his “surge” in Afghanistan…” Another sheep-dog like Bernie? Or better than that? —CGE > On Jun 30, 2018, at 12:38 PM, stuartnlevy via Peace-discuss wrote: > > It is there right now. > > The antiwar.com thread quotes Ocasio on June 27th that it hadn't been deliberately removed, and she was looking into it. So she did, and the statement is there. > > I haven't compared it with the previous version, but David Swanson says it is both lengthened and improved. He supports it and urges his readers to let her know they do too. > > > > > -- Stuart > > -------- Original message -------- > From: "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" > Date: 6/30/18 11:15 (GMT-06:00) > To: Robert Naiman , peace-discuss at anti-war.net > Cc: peace , "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" , Karen Aram > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune > > This is the piece removed from her website, wasn’t it? Has it been put back? > > > >> On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:30 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> https://ocasio2018.com/issues >> >> [...] >> >> A Peace Economy >> Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States has entangled itself in war and occupation throughout the Middle East and North Africa. As of 2018, we are currently involved in military action in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia. Hundreds of thousands of civilians in these countries have been killed either as collateral damage from American strikes or from the instability caused by U.S. interventions. Millions more have fled their broken countries, contributing to the global refugee crisis. >> >> This continued action damages America’s legitimacy as a force for good, creates new generations of potential terrorists, and erodes American prosperity. In times when we’re told that there’s not enough money, Republicans and corporate Democrats seem to find the cash to fund a $1.1 trillion fighter jet program or a $1.7 trillion-dollar nuclear weapon “modernization” program. The costs are extreme: the Pentagon’s budget for 2018 is $700 billion dollars: to continue fighting an endless War on Terror and refighting the Cold War with a new arms race that nobody can win. >> >> According to the Constitution, the right to declare war belongs to the legislative body, and yet many of these global acts of aggression have never once been voted on by Congress. In some cases, we've even acted unilaterally, without the backing of the United Nations. >> >> America should not be in the business of destabilizing countries. While we may see ourselves as liberators, the world increasingly views us as occupiers and aggressors. Alexandria believes that we must end the "forever war" by bringing our troops home, and ending the air strikes that perpetuate the cycle of terrorism throughout the world. >> >> By bringing our troops home, we can begin to heal the wounds we're opening by continuing military engagement. We can begin to repair our image. We can reunite military families, separated by repeated deployments. We can become stronger by building stronger diplomatic and economic ties, and by saving our armed forces only for when they're truly needed. >> >> [...] >> >> Robert Naiman >> Policy Director >> Just Foreign Policy >> www.justforeignpolicy.org >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >> (202) 448-2898 x1 >> >> On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2018/06/28/as-election-day-approached-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-removed-antiwar-foreign-policy-section-from-her-we >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From cgestabrook at gmail.com Sat Jun 30 21:08:11 2018 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 16:08:11 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The war party strikes back, again Message-ID: http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/06/officials-attempt-to-sabotage-trumps-north-korea-talks.html From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Jun 30 22:43:58 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 22:43:58 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune In-Reply-To: <5b37c022.1c69fb81.bc5ef.400a@mx.google.com> References: <5b37c022.1c69fb81.bc5ef.400a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Very good, thank you Stuart. Let’s all keep our fingers crossed that she is able to stand by her declarations. Anything David Swanson has to say is good enough for me. On Jun 30, 2018, at 10:38, stuartnlevy > wrote: It is there right now. The antiwar.com thread quotes Ocasio on June 27th that it hadn't been deliberately removed, and she was looking into it. So she did, and the statement is there. I haven't compared it with the previous version, but David Swanson says it is both lengthened and improved. He supports it and urges his readers to let her know they do too. -- Stuart -------- Original message -------- From: "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" > Date: 6/30/18 11:15 (GMT-06:00) To: Robert Naiman >, peace-discuss at anti-war.net Cc: peace >, "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" >, Karen Aram > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune This is the piece removed from her website, wasn’t it? Has it been put back? On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:30 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss > wrote: https://ocasio2018.com/issues [...] A Peace Economy Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States has entangled itself in war and occupation throughout the Middle East and North Africa. As of 2018, we are currently involved in military action in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia. Hundreds of thousands of civilians in these countries have been killed either as collateral damage from American strikes or from the instability caused by U.S. interventions. Millions more have fled their broken countries, contributing to the global refugee crisis. This continued action damages America’s legitimacy as a force for good, creates new generations of potential terrorists, and erodes American prosperity. In times when we’re told that there’s not enough money, Republicans and corporate Democrats seem to find the cash to fund a $1.1 trillion fighter jet program or a $1.7 trillion-dollar nuclear weapon “modernization” program. The costs are extreme: the Pentagon’s budget for 2018 is $700 billion dollars: to continue fighting an endless War on Terror and refighting the Cold War with a new arms race that nobody can win. According to the Constitution, the right to declare war belongs to the legislative body, and yet many of these global acts of aggression have never once been voted on by Congress. In some cases, we've even acted unilaterally, without the backing of the United Nations. America should not be in the business of destabilizing countries. While we may see ourselves as liberators, the world increasingly views us as occupiers and aggressors. Alexandria believes that we must end the "forever war" by bringing our troops home, and ending the air strikes that perpetuate the cycle of terrorism throughout the world. By bringing our troops home, we can begin to heal the wounds we're opening by continuing military engagement. We can begin to repair our image. We can reunite military families, separated by repeated deployments. We can become stronger by building stronger diplomatic and economic ties, and by saving our armed forces only for when they're truly needed. [...] Robert Naiman Policy Director Just Foreign Policy www.justforeignpolicy.org naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (202) 448-2898 x1 On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2018/06/28/as-election-day-approached-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-removed-antiwar-foreign-policy-section-from-her-we _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Jun 30 22:43:58 2018 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 22:43:58 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune In-Reply-To: <5b37c022.1c69fb81.bc5ef.400a@mx.google.com> References: <5b37c022.1c69fb81.bc5ef.400a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Very good, thank you Stuart. Let’s all keep our fingers crossed that she is able to stand by her declarations. Anything David Swanson has to say is good enough for me. On Jun 30, 2018, at 10:38, stuartnlevy > wrote: It is there right now. The antiwar.com thread quotes Ocasio on June 27th that it hadn't been deliberately removed, and she was looking into it. So she did, and the statement is there. I haven't compared it with the previous version, but David Swanson says it is both lengthened and improved. He supports it and urges his readers to let her know they do too. -- Stuart -------- Original message -------- From: "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" > Date: 6/30/18 11:15 (GMT-06:00) To: Robert Naiman >, peace-discuss at anti-war.net Cc: peace >, "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" >, Karen Aram > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune This is the piece removed from her website, wasn’t it? Has it been put back? On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:30 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss > wrote: https://ocasio2018.com/issues [...] A Peace Economy Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States has entangled itself in war and occupation throughout the Middle East and North Africa. As of 2018, we are currently involved in military action in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia. Hundreds of thousands of civilians in these countries have been killed either as collateral damage from American strikes or from the instability caused by U.S. interventions. Millions more have fled their broken countries, contributing to the global refugee crisis. This continued action damages America’s legitimacy as a force for good, creates new generations of potential terrorists, and erodes American prosperity. In times when we’re told that there’s not enough money, Republicans and corporate Democrats seem to find the cash to fund a $1.1 trillion fighter jet program or a $1.7 trillion-dollar nuclear weapon “modernization” program. The costs are extreme: the Pentagon’s budget for 2018 is $700 billion dollars: to continue fighting an endless War on Terror and refighting the Cold War with a new arms race that nobody can win. According to the Constitution, the right to declare war belongs to the legislative body, and yet many of these global acts of aggression have never once been voted on by Congress. In some cases, we've even acted unilaterally, without the backing of the United Nations. America should not be in the business of destabilizing countries. While we may see ourselves as liberators, the world increasingly views us as occupiers and aggressors. Alexandria believes that we must end the "forever war" by bringing our troops home, and ending the air strikes that perpetuate the cycle of terrorism throughout the world. By bringing our troops home, we can begin to heal the wounds we're opening by continuing military engagement. We can begin to repair our image. We can reunite military families, separated by repeated deployments. We can become stronger by building stronger diplomatic and economic ties, and by saving our armed forces only for when they're truly needed. [...] Robert Naiman Policy Director Just Foreign Policy www.justforeignpolicy.org naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (202) 448-2898 x1 On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2018/06/28/as-election-day-approached-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-removed-antiwar-foreign-policy-section-from-her-we _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Sat Jun 30 23:11:14 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 18:11:14 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune In-Reply-To: References: <5b37c022.1c69fb81.bc5ef.400a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: https://americaneveryman.com/2018/06/30/ajamu-baraka-pushes-dementer-with-the-ocasio-cortez-placebo-my-position-statement-on-ocasio-cortez/ It’s unclear where Ocasio is herself - but not the Democratic party. > On Jun 30, 2018, at 5:43 PM, Karen Aram wrote: > > Very good, thank you Stuart. Let’s all keep our fingers crossed that she is able to stand by her declarations. Anything David Swanson has to say is good enough for me. > > >> On Jun 30, 2018, at 10:38, stuartnlevy > wrote: > >> >> It is there right now. >> >> The antiwar.com thread quotes Ocasio on June 27th that it hadn't been deliberately removed, and she was looking into it. So she did, and the statement is there. >> >> I haven't compared it with the previous version, but David Swanson says it is both lengthened and improved. He supports it and urges his readers to let her know they do too. >> >> >> >> >> -- Stuart >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" > >> Date: 6/30/18 11:15 (GMT-06:00) >> To: Robert Naiman >, peace-discuss at anti-war.net >> Cc: peace >, "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" >, Karen Aram > >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune >> >> This is the piece removed from her website, wasn’t it? Has it been put back? >> >> >> >>> On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:30 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>> >>> https://ocasio2018.com/issues >>> >>> [...] >>> >>> A Peace Economy >>> Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States has entangled itself in war and occupation throughout the Middle East and North Africa. As of 2018, we are currently involved in military action in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia. Hundreds of thousands of civilians in these countries have been killed either as collateral damage from American strikes or from the instability caused by U.S. interventions. Millions more have fled their broken countries, contributing to the global refugee crisis. >>> >>> This continued action damages America’s legitimacy as a force for good, creates new generations of potential terrorists, and erodes American prosperity. In times when we’re told that there’s not enough money, Republicans and corporate Democrats seem to find the cash to fund a $1.1 trillion fighter jet program or a $1.7 trillion-dollar nuclear weapon “modernization” program. The costs are extreme: the Pentagon’s budget for 2018 is $700 billion dollars: to continue fighting an endless War on Terror and refighting the Cold War with a new arms race that nobody can win. >>> >>> According to the Constitution, the right to declare war belongs to the legislative body, and yet many of these global acts of aggression have never once been voted on by Congress. In some cases, we've even acted unilaterally, without the backing of the United Nations. >>> >>> America should not be in the business of destabilizing countries. While we may see ourselves as liberators, the world increasingly views us as occupiers and aggressors. Alexandria believes that we must end the "forever war" by bringing our troops home, and ending the air strikes that perpetuate the cycle of terrorism throughout the world. >>> >>> By bringing our troops home, we can begin to heal the wounds we're opening by continuing military engagement. We can begin to repair our image. We can reunite military families, separated by repeated deployments. We can become stronger by building stronger diplomatic and economic ties, and by saving our armed forces only for when they're truly needed. >>> >>> [...] >>> >>> Robert Naiman >>> Policy Director >>> Just Foreign Policy >>> www.justforeignpolicy.org >>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >>> (202) 448-2898 x1 >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>> https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2018/06/28/as-election-day-approached-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-removed-antiwar-foreign-policy-section-from-her-we >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Sat Jun 30 23:11:14 2018 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 18:11:14 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune In-Reply-To: References: <5b37c022.1c69fb81.bc5ef.400a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: https://americaneveryman.com/2018/06/30/ajamu-baraka-pushes-dementer-with-the-ocasio-cortez-placebo-my-position-statement-on-ocasio-cortez/ It’s unclear where Ocasio is herself - but not the Democratic party. > On Jun 30, 2018, at 5:43 PM, Karen Aram wrote: > > Very good, thank you Stuart. Let’s all keep our fingers crossed that she is able to stand by her declarations. Anything David Swanson has to say is good enough for me. > > >> On Jun 30, 2018, at 10:38, stuartnlevy > wrote: > >> >> It is there right now. >> >> The antiwar.com thread quotes Ocasio on June 27th that it hadn't been deliberately removed, and she was looking into it. So she did, and the statement is there. >> >> I haven't compared it with the previous version, but David Swanson says it is both lengthened and improved. He supports it and urges his readers to let her know they do too. >> >> >> >> >> -- Stuart >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" > >> Date: 6/30/18 11:15 (GMT-06:00) >> To: Robert Naiman >, peace-discuss at anti-war.net >> Cc: peace >, "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" >, Karen Aram > >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune >> >> This is the piece removed from her website, wasn’t it? Has it been put back? >> >> >> >>> On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:30 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>> >>> https://ocasio2018.com/issues >>> >>> [...] >>> >>> A Peace Economy >>> Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States has entangled itself in war and occupation throughout the Middle East and North Africa. As of 2018, we are currently involved in military action in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia. Hundreds of thousands of civilians in these countries have been killed either as collateral damage from American strikes or from the instability caused by U.S. interventions. Millions more have fled their broken countries, contributing to the global refugee crisis. >>> >>> This continued action damages America’s legitimacy as a force for good, creates new generations of potential terrorists, and erodes American prosperity. In times when we’re told that there’s not enough money, Republicans and corporate Democrats seem to find the cash to fund a $1.1 trillion fighter jet program or a $1.7 trillion-dollar nuclear weapon “modernization” program. The costs are extreme: the Pentagon’s budget for 2018 is $700 billion dollars: to continue fighting an endless War on Terror and refighting the Cold War with a new arms race that nobody can win. >>> >>> According to the Constitution, the right to declare war belongs to the legislative body, and yet many of these global acts of aggression have never once been voted on by Congress. In some cases, we've even acted unilaterally, without the backing of the United Nations. >>> >>> America should not be in the business of destabilizing countries. While we may see ourselves as liberators, the world increasingly views us as occupiers and aggressors. Alexandria believes that we must end the "forever war" by bringing our troops home, and ending the air strikes that perpetuate the cycle of terrorism throughout the world. >>> >>> By bringing our troops home, we can begin to heal the wounds we're opening by continuing military engagement. We can begin to repair our image. We can reunite military families, separated by repeated deployments. We can become stronger by building stronger diplomatic and economic ties, and by saving our armed forces only for when they're truly needed. >>> >>> [...] >>> >>> Robert Naiman >>> Policy Director >>> Just Foreign Policy >>> www.justforeignpolicy.org >>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org >>> (202) 448-2898 x1 >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>> https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2018/06/28/as-election-day-approached-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-removed-antiwar-foreign-policy-section-from-her-we >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: