[Peace-discuss] [Peace] My response to NFN yesterday. I pasted it on the NFN Utube page.

Fri Nov 2 00:39:15 UTC 2018

The voting of war credits in 1914 split and largely destroyed the socialist movement in Germany. But even after that, the lines may seem sharper in hindsight.

"Terms like capitalism & socialism have been so evacuated of meaning that I don't like to use them.There's nothing remotely like capitalism in existence. To the extent there ever was, it disappeared by the 20’s. Every industrial society is one form or another of state capitalism.” [Noam Chomsky]

> On Oct 29, 2018, at 8:45 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> 
> Also Carl,
> 
> As you probably are aware of but I thought I should mention it anyway, is that the break / division in the Socialist movement in Germany that led to the creation of the separate political tendencies of Social Democrats ( Liberals who wanted to only reform capitalism ) and Socialists, Communists, and Anarchists who wanted to abolish capitalism was the Social Democratic faction supporting World War 1.
> 
> David J. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Johnson [mailto:davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net] 
> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 7:43 AM
> To: 'C G Estabrook'; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] My response to NFN yesterday. I pasted it on the NFN Utube page.
> 
> Carl,
> 
> It was a SOCIAL DEMOCRATIC ( Liberal ) Government, NOT an anti-capitalist SOCIALIST government.
> 
> As you mentioned in an earlier post, Rosa Luxemburg and Liebknecht were critics of Lenin and the Bolsheviks but they were still anti-capitalists. The type of government they would have created if the German revolution of 1918 / 1919 had not been brutally repressed by Ebert and the Social Democrats ( Liberals ) with the use of the pre-Nazi Freikorp in order to save capitalism, would have been much different ( better ) than what existed in Lenin's Russia. An example of what it may have looked like was the Bavarian Socialist government that was established with Kurt Eisner that lasted a brief time before the Freikorp destroyed it after securing the major cities of Berlin, Hamburg, etc..
> 
> David J.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com] 
> Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 6:41 PM
> To: David Johnson
> Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] My response to NFN yesterday. I pasted it on the NFN Utube page.
> 
> My specific point is that Luxemburg was murdered on the orders of a socialist government.
> 
> It’s undeniable that there have been murderous disputes among groups belonging to the socialist tradition.
> 
> "Friedrich Ebert was a German politician of the Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD) and the first President of Germany from 1919 until his death in office in 1925 … Some historians have defended Ebert's actions as unfortunate but inevitable if the creation of a socialist state on the model that had been promoted by Rosa Luxemburg, Karl Liebknecht and the communist Spartacists was to be prevented … [Ebert] has been called a traitor by leftists … whereas those who think his policies were justified claim that he saved Germany from Bolshevik excesses.” [Wikipedia]
> 
> 
>> On Oct 28, 2018, at 4:15 PM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> 
>> What is your SPECIFIC point Carl ?
>> 
>> Are you denying or trying intentionally to confuse the issue of the difference between a REAL Socialist ( anti-capitalist ) and a Social Democrat ( Pro-Capitalist Liberal ) ?
>> 
>> David J.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss
>> Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 1:31 PM
>> To: Karen Aram
>> Cc: peace; Peace; peace-discuss at anti-war.net
>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] My response to NFN yesterday. I pasted it on the NFN Utube page.
>> 
>> Does this approach the “No true Scotsman” argument? Or does it help us to say what a real critique of capitalism looked like a century ago?
>> 
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman>
>> 
>> —CGE
>> 
>>> On Oct 28, 2018, at 11:19 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Carl: 
>>> 
>>> Social Democratic leader Friedrich Ebert,”
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Social Democrats are NOT real Socialists – They are not anti-capitalists. They want to reform capitalism so it is more humane, but they will go to whatever lengths ( including murder ) to save capitalism. Ebert may have started out socialist, but moved to the right, joining the liberals and conservatives, with the SDP violently opposing the revolution of 1919.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 27, 2018, at 19:43, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Karen—
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you indeed for listening to and commenting on the program. 
>>>> 
>>>> As you acknowledge, Rosa Luxemburg was indeed murdered by Freikorps at the direction of the socialist government of Friedrich Ebert. She was of course a critic of that government -  from the Left, not from the Right.
>>>> 
>>>> Chomsky admires Luxemburg’s politics and her critique of Leninism - which is why contemporary Marxist-Leninists attack them both. —CGE
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 27, 2018, at 5:10 PM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> David
>>>>> : Why quote Louis Proyect, he is a wolf in sheeps’ clothing. “Unrepentant
>>>>> Marxist” my foot, and he is not the only one. A true socialist has no problem recognizing Khashoggi is not a "kind or good" man. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Carl:
>>>>> your statement that Rosa Luxembourg was murdered by socialists is a bit disingenuous, given she was murdered by Social Democratic leader Friedrich Ebert, who ordered a division of the German military, known as the Freikorps. Rosa Luxemburg,
>>>>> with Karl Liebknecht, organized a strong movement in Germany with these views, but was imprisoned and, after her release, killed at Eberts instructions, for her work during the failed German Revolution of 1919 - a revolution which the German Social Democratic
>>>>> Party, violently opposed.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> David:
>>>>> I too was outraged over Rula Jabreal’s spin on Kashoggi,
>>>>> on Democracy Now, and posted on my FB page, the following statement to which many were in agreement:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Evening rant: Democracy Now, this morning with Rula Jabreal speaking of her recent interview with Jamal Kashoggi, made me ill. Her portrait of him as a "kind man, wanting democracy and human rights blah, blah for his people." And, Amy never said a word. This "kind man" as she referred to him, was tortured, murdered, dismembered and buried in the Embassy/Consulate grounds. However, he supported the KSA in their war efforts, specifically in Yemen. No one deserves to die as he did, certainly none of the Yemeni civilians who have been dying in record numbers since March 2015 due to US and Saudi efforts. Their bodies aren't even buried, just left to rot in the rubble from the Saudi bombings, which take place only with USG support, our weapons, our training, logistics, refueling etc.
>>>>> MBS the new guy responsible for J. Kashoggi's death, visited the US after his coup, with our ruling elites, especially the Trump Administration, promoting him as a reformer, because he planned to allow Saudi women the right to drive. This was proven to be a facade, when he had the woman leading the call for driving privileges, incarcerated. A protestor, also a woman was beheaded recently, for some minor infraction, like speaking out against abuse by the gov.. The Saudi's are brutal leaders, treating their people with utter disdain, allowing absolutely no challenge to their authority.
>>>>> The Saudi Royal family is a US construct, supported by us, since WW2 as "our dictators." "Pseudo journalists" like Rula, Amy and others supported by our ruling elites are playing politics, and its looking quite obvious, to have something to do with upcoming elections. As despicable as the Republicans are, the Democrats within the Beltway are no better, playing good cop, bad cop. I do vote for local Democrats, but recognize how unimportant and corrupt elections are, if only because mainstream media has been bought, and the people have been blinded.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
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