From carl at newsfromneptune.com Sun Dec 1 03:05:32 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 21:05:32 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Trump in Afghanistan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <449BA5E7-9B38-4A10-93C1-7D0AF5A49079@newsfromneptune.com> The notion that we?re responsible for ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.? Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 30, 2019, at 12:39 AM, John W. wrote: > > ? >> On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 5:39 AM C. G. Estabrook wrote: >> > >> You?ve bought the entire subtle establishment political strategy, designed to maintain US killing around the world: ?ORANGE MAN BAD!? > > And what have YOU bought, mon cher? > > > >> > On Nov 28, 2019, at 8:05 PM, John W. wrote: >> > >> > On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 7:45 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: >> > >> > [FT] Trump says talks with Taliban have resumed >> > US president Donald Trump said peace talks with the Taliban had resumed >> > as he made an unannounced visit to Afghanistan on Thanksgiving, >> > appearing at a US air force base alongside Afghan president Ashraf Ghani. >> > >> > Following a meeting with Mr Ghani, Mr Trump told reporters that the Taliban >> > ?wants to make a deal? and that US officials were ?meeting with them?. >> > >> > Yes, our bold, intrepid Commander in Chief was his usual articulate self today. "The Taliban want to make a deal. But I'm not sure I want to make a deal. It may not be a good deal. On the other hand, it could be a good deal. It'll all depends on what kind of deal they want to make. We'll have to see what happens." The troops, discerning what a bold, intrepid Commander in Chief now leads them so fearlessly, were heard to applaud wildly and thankfully. >> > >> > >> > >> > > On Nov 28, 2019, at 7:41 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote: >> > > >> > > WSJ: "Trump Says Taliban Peace Talks to Resume During Surprise Afghanistan Visit? >> > > >> > > >> > > In the early 1960's, some US military would say of Kennedy's attack on South Vietnam, "It's a dirty little war - but it's the only war we've got.? >> > > >> > > Today, thanks most recently to Obama - the first US president to be at war throughout two presidential terms - they needn't say that about Afghanistan: he's left seven others to choose from, having attacked Iraq, Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well. >> > > >> > > But the permanent government (notably Democrat ?liberals?) insist on removing Trump for fear he'll end the killing in Afghanistan and elsewhere? >> > > >> > > ?CGE >> > > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Peace mailing list >> > Peace at lists.chambana.net >> > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Sun Dec 1 07:17:37 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 01:17:37 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Robert_Reich=E2=80=99s_letter_to_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYTW92ZU9u4oCZIENPUlJFQ1RFRA==?= In-Reply-To: References: <3AF248DC-2DDA-46AB-9D70-DBE8476C7709@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: <2DDCE14A-A0B2-4BBB-890F-54940B8CBCEC@newsfromneptune.com> "If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged. By violation of the Nuremberg laws I mean the same kind of crimes for which people were hanged in Nuremberg?? Unfortunately, that observation applies to all recent US presidents as well. > On Nov 28, 2019, at 12:11 AM, Karen Medina via Peace-discuss wrote: > > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 1970 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 1980 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 1990 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2000 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2010 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2011 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2012 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2013 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2014 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2015. [Full stop.] > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From naiman.uiuc at gmail.com Sun Dec 1 12:59:23 2019 From: naiman.uiuc at gmail.com (Robert Naiman) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 07:59:23 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Trump in Afghanistan In-Reply-To: <2891E1FE-FDEB-4772-8B9E-7EA7A56CC12F@newsfromneptune.com> References: <043D5F41-5B10-41B2-BBB7-2B5F794A5545@newsfromneptune.com> <9A5EBB06-CD12-4425-8647-7BB686CA84F5@newsfromneptune.com> <0260A127-1D96-47F4-A950-8CB4514A5C8B@newsfromneptune.com> <2891E1FE-FDEB-4772-8B9E-7EA7A56CC12F@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: The strongest case for impeaching Trump for unconstitutional war is with respect to unconstitutional U.S. participation in the Saudi war in Yemen, because Trump continued the war after Congress voted against it. That is unique. On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 7:01 AM C. G. Estabrook wrote: > Impeach Trump not for war-making but for not making war where Obama did > (Ukraine)? > > "The last temptation is the greatest treason: > To do the right deed for the wrong reason." > > > > On Nov 29, 2019, at 5:46 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > > > Carl is right that Trump wants to end the war in Afghanistan. That is a > good thing. U.S. anti-war activists should support ending the war in > Afghanistan, regardless of what they think of Trump otherwise. > > > > "Democrats" didn't democratically decide that impeaching Trump would be > about the temporary suspension of lethal military aid to Ukraine. Nancy > Pelosi decided that, all by her little lonesome. If we don't want to be at > junctures like this in the future, we need to boot Nancy Pelosi from the > Speaker's chair or curb her dictatorial power. > > > > Here's a proposal. Let's set a public deadline for any Member of the > House who is not named Tulsi Gabbard to introduce articles of impeachment > on Trump for unconstitutional war. When the deadline passes, let's ask > Tulsi to do it. When the "well-intentioned but frightened" "anti-war" > groups in DC that are afraid to cross Dem leadership concern-troll us that > Tulsi is "the wrong messenger," we say to them: you knew what the deadline > was. We publicly announced it. If you couldn't get any of the other 434 > Members of the House to do this, you only have yourselves to blame. > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 6:40 AM C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > You?ve bought the entire subtle establishment political strategy, > designed to maintain US killing around the world: ?ORANGE MAN BAD!? > > > > > > > On Nov 28, 2019, at 8:05 PM, John W. wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 7:45 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace < > peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > > > > > [FT] Trump says talks with Taliban have resumed > > > US president Donald Trump said peace talks with the Taliban had > resumed > > > as he made an unannounced visit to Afghanistan on Thanksgiving, > > > appearing at a US air force base alongside Afghan president Ashraf > Ghani. > > > > > > Following a meeting with Mr Ghani, Mr Trump told reporters that the > Taliban > > > ?wants to make a deal? and that US officials were ?meeting with them?. > > > > > > Yes, our bold, intrepid Commander in Chief was his usual articulate > self today. "The Taliban want to make a deal. But I'm not sure I want to > make a deal. It may not be a good deal. On the other hand, it could be a > good deal. It'll all depends on what kind of deal they want to make. > We'll have to see what happens." The troops, discerning what a bold, > intrepid Commander in Chief now leads them so fearlessly, were heard to > applaud wildly and thankfully. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 28, 2019, at 7:41 PM, C. G. Estabrook < > carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > WSJ: "Trump Says Taliban Peace Talks to Resume During Surprise > Afghanistan Visit? > > > > < > https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-makes-surprise-visit-to-afghanistan-11574968770?mod=hp_lead_pos1 > > > > > > > > > > In the early 1960's, some US military would say of Kennedy's attack > on South Vietnam, "It's a dirty little war - but it's the only war we've > got.? > > > > > > > > Today, thanks most recently to Obama - the first US president to be > at war throughout two presidential terms - they needn't say that about > Afghanistan: he's left seven others to choose from, having attacked Iraq, > Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well. > > > > > > > > But the permanent government (notably Democrat ?liberals?) insist on > removing Trump for fear he'll end the killing in Afghanistan and elsewhere? > > > > > > > > ?CGE > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Peace mailing list > > > Peace at lists.chambana.net > > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Peace-discuss mailing list > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > > Peace-discuss mailing list > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Sun Dec 1 13:39:25 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 07:39:25 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Trump in Afghanistan In-Reply-To: References: <043D5F41-5B10-41B2-BBB7-2B5F794A5545@newsfromneptune.com> <9A5EBB06-CD12-4425-8647-7BB686CA84F5@newsfromneptune.com> <0260A127-1D96-47F4-A950-8CB4514A5C8B@newsfromneptune.com> <2891E1FE-FDEB-4772-8B9E-7EA7A56CC12F@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: <40C41B4F-AAB5-4B10-A7E0-A75D184B762D@newsfromneptune.com> Surely a president in office is responsible for any war carried on by his/her administration. But Trump is condemned by the US political establishment for not being as criminal as Obama. > On Dec 1, 2019, at 6:59 AM, Robert Naiman wrote: > > The strongest case for impeaching Trump for unconstitutional war is with respect to unconstitutional U.S. participation in the Saudi war in Yemen, because Trump continued the war after Congress voted against it. That is unique. > > On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 7:01 AM C. G. Estabrook wrote: > Impeach Trump not for war-making but for *not* making war where Obama did (Afghanistan, Ukraine, etc.)? > > "The last temptation is the greatest treason: > To do the right deed for the wrong reason." > > > > On Nov 29, 2019, at 5:46 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > > Carl is right that Trump wants to end the war in Afghanistan. That is a good thing. U.S. anti-war activists should support ending the war in Afghanistan, regardless of what they think of Trump otherwise. > > > > "Democrats" didn't democratically decide that impeaching Trump would be about the temporary suspension of lethal military aid to Ukraine. Nancy Pelosi decided that, all by her little lonesome. If we don't want to be at junctures like this in the future, we need to boot Nancy Pelosi from the Speaker's chair or curb her dictatorial power. > > > > Here's a proposal. Let's set a public deadline for any Member of the House who is not named Tulsi Gabbard to introduce articles of impeachment on Trump for unconstitutional war. When the deadline passes, let's ask Tulsi to do it. When the "well-intentioned but frightened" "anti-war" groups in DC that are afraid to cross Dem leadership concern-troll us that Tulsi is "the wrong messenger," we say to them: you knew what the deadline was. We publicly announced it. If you couldn't get any of the other 434 Members of the House to do this, you only have yourselves to blame. > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 6:40 AM C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > > You?ve bought the entire subtle establishment political strategy, designed to maintain US killing around the world: ?ORANGE MAN BAD!? > > > > > > > On Nov 28, 2019, at 8:05 PM, John W. wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 7:45 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: > > > > > > [FT] Trump says talks with Taliban have resumed > > > US president Donald Trump said peace talks with the Taliban had resumed > > > as he made an unannounced visit to Afghanistan on Thanksgiving, > > > appearing at a US air force base alongside Afghan president Ashraf Ghani. > > > > > > Following a meeting with Mr Ghani, Mr Trump told reporters that the Taliban > > > ?wants to make a deal? and that US officials were ?meeting with them?. > > > > > > Yes, our bold, intrepid Commander in Chief was his usual articulate self today. "The Taliban want to make a deal. But I'm not sure I want to make a deal. It may not be a good deal. On the other hand, it could be a good deal. It'll all depends on what kind of deal they want to make. We'll have to see what happens." The troops, discerning what a bold, intrepid Commander in Chief now leads them so fearlessly, were heard to applaud wildly and thankfully. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 28, 2019, at 7:41 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote: > > > > > > > > WSJ: "Trump Says Taliban Peace Talks to Resume During Surprise Afghanistan Visit? > > > > > > > > > > > > In the early 1960's, some US military would say of Kennedy's attack on South Vietnam, "It's a dirty little war - but it's the only war we've got.? > > > > > > > > Today, thanks most recently to Obama - the first US president to be at war throughout two presidential terms - they needn't say that about Afghanistan: he's left seven others to choose from, having attacked Iraq, Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well. > > > > > > > > But the permanent government (notably Democrat ?liberals?) insist on removing Trump for fear he'll end the killing in Afghanistan and elsewhere? > > > > > > > > ?CGE > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Peace mailing list > > > Peace at lists.chambana.net > > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Peace-discuss mailing list > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > > Peace-discuss mailing list > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > From naiman.uiuc at gmail.com Sun Dec 1 13:53:09 2019 From: naiman.uiuc at gmail.com (Robert Naiman) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 08:53:09 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Trump in Afghanistan In-Reply-To: <40C41B4F-AAB5-4B10-A7E0-A75D184B762D@newsfromneptune.com> References: <043D5F41-5B10-41B2-BBB7-2B5F794A5545@newsfromneptune.com> <9A5EBB06-CD12-4425-8647-7BB686CA84F5@newsfromneptune.com> <0260A127-1D96-47F4-A950-8CB4514A5C8B@newsfromneptune.com> <2891E1FE-FDEB-4772-8B9E-7EA7A56CC12F@newsfromneptune.com> <40C41B4F-AAB5-4B10-A7E0-A75D184B762D@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: A president is responsible for any war, no doubt. It's a huge struggle to get Members of Congress to introduce Articles of Impeachment on unconstitutional war. That's why it makes sense to focus on the best case. On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 8:39 AM C. G. Estabrook wrote: > Surely a president in office is responsible for any war carried on by > his/her administration. > > But Trump is condemned by the US political establishment for not being as > criminal as Obama. > > > > On Dec 1, 2019, at 6:59 AM, Robert Naiman wrote: > > > > The strongest case for impeaching Trump for unconstitutional war is with > respect to unconstitutional U.S. participation in the Saudi war in Yemen, > because Trump continued the war after Congress voted against it. That is > unique. > > > > On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 7:01 AM C. G. Estabrook < > carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote: > > Impeach Trump not for war-making but for *not* making war where Obama > did (Afghanistan, Ukraine, etc.)? > > > > "The last temptation is the greatest treason: > > To do the right deed for the wrong reason." > > > > > > > On Nov 29, 2019, at 5:46 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > > > > > Carl is right that Trump wants to end the war in Afghanistan. That is > a good thing. U.S. anti-war activists should support ending the war in > Afghanistan, regardless of what they think of Trump otherwise. > > > > > > "Democrats" didn't democratically decide that impeaching Trump would > be about the temporary suspension of lethal military aid to Ukraine. Nancy > Pelosi decided that, all by her little lonesome. If we don't want to be at > junctures like this in the future, we need to boot Nancy Pelosi from the > Speaker's chair or curb her dictatorial power. > > > > > > Here's a proposal. Let's set a public deadline for any Member of the > House who is not named Tulsi Gabbard to introduce articles of impeachment > on Trump for unconstitutional war. When the deadline passes, let's ask > Tulsi to do it. When the "well-intentioned but frightened" "anti-war" > groups in DC that are afraid to cross Dem leadership concern-troll us that > Tulsi is "the wrong messenger," we say to them: you knew what the deadline > was. We publicly announced it. If you couldn't get any of the other 434 > Members of the House to do this, you only have yourselves to blame. > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 6:40 AM C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > > You?ve bought the entire subtle establishment political strategy, > designed to maintain US killing around the world: ?ORANGE MAN BAD!? > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 28, 2019, at 8:05 PM, John W. wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 7:45 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace < > peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > [FT] Trump says talks with Taliban have resumed > > > > US president Donald Trump said peace talks with the Taliban had > resumed > > > > as he made an unannounced visit to Afghanistan on Thanksgiving, > > > > appearing at a US air force base alongside Afghan president Ashraf > Ghani. > > > > > > > > Following a meeting with Mr Ghani, Mr Trump told reporters that the > Taliban > > > > ?wants to make a deal? and that US officials were ?meeting with > them?. > > > > > > > > Yes, our bold, intrepid Commander in Chief was his usual articulate > self today. "The Taliban want to make a deal. But I'm not sure I want to > make a deal. It may not be a good deal. On the other hand, it could be a > good deal. It'll all depends on what kind of deal they want to make. > We'll have to see what happens." The troops, discerning what a bold, > intrepid Commander in Chief now leads them so fearlessly, were heard to > applaud wildly and thankfully. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 28, 2019, at 7:41 PM, C. G. Estabrook < > carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > WSJ: "Trump Says Taliban Peace Talks to Resume During Surprise > Afghanistan Visit? > > > > > < > https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-makes-surprise-visit-to-afghanistan-11574968770?mod=hp_lead_pos1 > > > > > > > > > > > > In the early 1960's, some US military would say of Kennedy's > attack on South Vietnam, "It's a dirty little war - but it's the only war > we've got.? > > > > > > > > > > Today, thanks most recently to Obama - the first US president to > be at war throughout two presidential terms - they needn't say that about > Afghanistan: he's left seven others to choose from, having attacked Iraq, > Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well. > > > > > > > > > > But the permanent government (notably Democrat ?liberals?) insist > on removing Trump for fear he'll end the killing in Afghanistan and > elsewhere? > > > > > > > > > > ?CGE > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Peace mailing list > > > > Peace at lists.chambana.net > > > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Peace-discuss mailing list > > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Peace-discuss mailing list > > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmedina67 at gmail.com Sun Dec 1 16:40:39 2019 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (kmedina67) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 10:40:39 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Robert_Reich=E2=80=99s_letter_to_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYTW92ZU9u4oCZIENPUlJFQ1RFRA==?= In-Reply-To: <2DDCE14A-A0B2-4BBB-890F-54940B8CBCEC@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: <5de3ed0b.1c69fb81.fd7fd.88d8@mx.google.com> Yes, Chomsky is right, the US has a long history of not dealing with the International crimes our presidents commit.??For instance, the United States has deposed heads of other countries for corruption.? So now is the time to use impeachment for our own head -- now that the corruption is blatant, and corruption is the priority of -- and standard operating procedure for -- this president.And, it would be good? for us to join the International criminal court. The US has used it to hang * people. We should join the ICC so that US leaders would feel more susceptible to international laws and not just impeachment.?- Karen Medina* we should join it so together we could discuss doing away with capital punishment? -------- Original message --------From: "C. G. Estabrook" Date: 12/1/19 01:17 (GMT-06:00) To: Karen Medina Cc: Peace Discuss Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Robert Reich?s letter to ?MoveOn? CORRECTED "If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged. By violation of the Nuremberg laws I mean the same kind of crimes for which people were hanged in Nuremberg??Unfortunately, that observation applies to all recent US presidents as well.> On Nov 28, 2019, at 12:11 AM, Karen Medina via Peace-discuss wrote:> > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 1970> "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 1980> "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 1990> "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2000 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2010 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2011 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2012> "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2013> "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2014> "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2015. [Full stop.]> _______________________________________________> Peace-discuss mailing list> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmedina67 at gmail.com Sun Dec 1 16:40:39 2019 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (kmedina67) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 10:40:39 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Robert_Reich=E2=80=99s_letter_to_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYTW92ZU9u4oCZIENPUlJFQ1RFRA==?= In-Reply-To: <2DDCE14A-A0B2-4BBB-890F-54940B8CBCEC@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: <5de3ed0b.1c69fb81.fd7fd.88d8@mx.google.com> Yes, Chomsky is right, the US has a long history of not dealing with the International crimes our presidents commit.??For instance, the United States has deposed heads of other countries for corruption.? So now is the time to use impeachment for our own head -- now that the corruption is blatant, and corruption is the priority of -- and standard operating procedure for -- this president.And, it would be good? for us to join the International criminal court. The US has used it to hang * people. We should join the ICC so that US leaders would feel more susceptible to international laws and not just impeachment.?- Karen Medina* we should join it so together we could discuss doing away with capital punishment? -------- Original message --------From: "C. G. Estabrook" Date: 12/1/19 01:17 (GMT-06:00) To: Karen Medina Cc: Peace Discuss Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Robert Reich?s letter to ?MoveOn? CORRECTED "If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged. By violation of the Nuremberg laws I mean the same kind of crimes for which people were hanged in Nuremberg??Unfortunately, that observation applies to all recent US presidents as well.> On Nov 28, 2019, at 12:11 AM, Karen Medina via Peace-discuss wrote:> > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 1970> "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 1980> "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 1990> "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2000 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2010 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2011 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2012> "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2013> "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2014> "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2015. [Full stop.]> _______________________________________________> Peace-discuss mailing list> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sun Dec 1 17:55:22 2019 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 09:55:22 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] REVEALED: New Details on The Killing of JFK & His Lover Mary Meyer In-Reply-To: <2ab5175e797cf44579dae2f21.24d5dd889d.20191201173525.96ae7bce70.5cf68c93@mail182.suw18.rsgsv.net> References: <2ab5175e797cf44579dae2f21.24d5dd889d.20191201173525.96ae7bce70.5cf68c93@mail182.suw18.rsgsv.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 1, 2019, at 09:35, Redacted Tonight wrote: > > Please add LeeRedacted at Outlook.com to your contact list to help us avoid spam filters. > (You can also view this email in your browser. ) > > > Hey Karen > > Even though there is not a new Redacted Tonight this week, THERE IS a gripping new episode of Redacted: VIP about the assassination of JFK and his lover Mary Meyer - within the span of one year. Even if you don't normally watch my interview show, trust me - you'll want to see this one! You'll learn how the CIA hit took place, how carefully it was orchestrated, and why the killers did it in broad daylight. > > Click here to watch. ? > > Secondly, there's a new web-exclusive episode of Moment of Clarity in which I reveal what Human Rights Watch won't dare tell you. Click here to watch Moment of Clarity. > > Keep fighting, > Lee > > P.S. - My new book is now available for pre-order and there's a UK/ Europe site as well! Click for details . It includes an intro from Jimmy Dore and a foreword by Chris Hedges. > > Click To Watch Redacted Tonight: VIP > > All rights reserved. > Click to subscribe to Redacted Tonight youtube page . > Click to unsubscribe from this mailing list. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Sun Dec 1 23:38:06 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 17:38:06 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Republican City Opens Gov. Run Grocery Store Message-ID: <008401d5a8a0$631df8c0$2959ea40$@comcast.net> Must watch nine minute segment. What is Socialism really ? #TheJimmyDoreShow Republican City Opens Gov. Run Grocery Store https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycM3eULgFiA &t=320s -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkb3 at icloud.com Mon Dec 2 00:12:26 2019 From: mkb3 at icloud.com (Morton K. Brussel) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 18:12:26 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Astore on war Message-ID: <6D67FF0C-D4E7-4FA7-B9DF-ADCAF382F8EE@icloud.com> Not bad, this article, although never mentioning the economic systems that seem endemic? He ends with this: We need to stop idealizing war and idolizing its so-called warriors. At stake is nothing less than the future of humanity and the viability of life, as we know it, on Spaceship Earth. See. http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/176635/tomgram%3A_william_astore%2C_mutiny_on_spaceship_earth/#more -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Mon Dec 2 00:30:02 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 18:30:02 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Robert_Reich=E2=80=99s_letter_to_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYTW92ZU9u4oCZIENPUlJFQ1RFRA==?= In-Reply-To: <5de3ed0b.1c69fb81.fd7fd.88d8@mx.google.com> References: <5de3ed0b.1c69fb81.fd7fd.88d8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <9D278FD4-13C7-456C-931D-B2690F396528@newsfromneptune.com> By ?corruption is blatant,? you mean Trump?s phone call to Zelensky? Or Obama?s establishment of an illegal, nazi-infested government that?s killed thousands of it own citizens? > On Dec 1, 2019, at 10:40 AM, kmedina67 via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Yes, Chomsky is right, the US has a long history of not dealing with the International crimes our presidents commit. > > For instance, the United States has deposed heads of other countries for corruption. So now is the time to use impeachment for our own head -- now that the corruption is blatant, and corruption is the priority of -- and standard operating procedure for -- this president. > > And, it would be good for us to join the International criminal court. The US has used it to hang * people. We should join the ICC so that US leaders would feel more susceptible to international laws and not just impeachment. > > > - Karen Medina > * we should join it so together we could discuss doing away with capital punishment > > -------- Original message -------- > From: "C. G. Estabrook" > Date: 12/1/19 01:17 (GMT-06:00) > To: Karen Medina > Cc: Peace Discuss > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Robert Reich?s letter to ?MoveOn? CORRECTED > > > > "If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged. By violation of the Nuremberg laws I mean the same kind of crimes for which people were hanged in Nuremberg?? > > Unfortunately, that observation applies to all recent US presidents as well. > > > > On Nov 28, 2019, at 12:11 AM, Karen Medina via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 1970 > > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 1980 > > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 1990 > > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2000 > > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2010 > > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2011 > > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2012 > > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2013 > > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2014 > > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2015. [Full stop.] > > _______________________________________________ > > Peace-discuss mailing list > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From jbn at forestfield.org Mon Dec 2 02:11:20 2019 From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 20:11:20 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Republican City Opens Gov. Run Grocery Store In-Reply-To: <008401d5a8a0$631df8c0$2959ea40$@comcast.net> References: <008401d5a8a0$631df8c0$2959ea40$@comcast.net> Message-ID: David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: > Must watch nine minute segment. What is Socialism really ? I concur. Dore's reaction to the audience member who sarcastically says we ought not trust our government is particularly worth seeing and he does a good job explaining why that reaction is wrongheaded -- we are better off with small-d democratic control over the service the grocery provides than we are handing that function over to private interests in the hopes that they won't exploit us too badly. I'm also reminded of the segment of one of my favorite documentaries -- The Corporation -- where Mark Kingwell explains why we have public firefighting (around 59m): > Mark Kingwell: Over the centuries we have put more and more things in > that public realm and lately, just lately, in the last let's say three > or four decades, started pulling them out again. So firefighters, for > instance. Firefighters started as private companies, and if you didn't > have the medallion of a given firefighter brigade on your house and it > was on fire, those firefighters would just ride on by because you didn't > have a deal. Well, it gradually evolved a public trust for the provision > of safety on that very specific level. This is important. We should not > go back from that and start saying, well, you know why don't we put that > back in the market and see what that does? Maybe it will make it more > efficient. You can see or download this excellent documentary at https://archive.org/download/TheCorp/TheCorporation.mp4 If you get a copy of "The Corporation" get the 2-disc DVD set because the second disc has interviews with everyone featured in the movie and they're very interesting on their own. There's even one with Michael Moore in there before he was obviously a Democratic Party shill (as Jimmy Dore exposes in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwmFRReGUco when he sits silently and tacitly co-signs a neocon smear still used by the Democratic Party against Tulsi Gabbard). There's a sequel to "The Corporation" in the works now. See https://www.thecorporation.com/#block-views-news_and_events_blog-feat for more. From carl at newsfromneptune.com Mon Dec 2 02:16:55 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 20:16:55 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Trump in Afghanistan In-Reply-To: References: <043D5F41-5B10-41B2-BBB7-2B5F794A5545@newsfromneptune.com> <9A5EBB06-CD12-4425-8647-7BB686CA84F5@newsfromneptune.com> <812799532.894664.1575031764114@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3FDB6867-E2DA-436A-9D45-657D356E70BF@newsfromneptune.com> The people who are most opposed to making a deal that would see US troops withdrawn from Afghanistan are the neocons/CIA/Democrats who want to maintain the US policy of war and war provocations against Russia and China. They?re afraid that Trump will make such a deal and interfere with belligerent US policy: that?s why he has to be removed. The US originally sent jihadists into Afghanistan in the Carter adminstrtion ?to give the Russians a Vietnam of their own," as Z. Brzezinski said. (The Obama administration tried the same thing in Syria.) See . The US invasion in October of 2001 was ostensibly to get Bin Laden, so the Afghan government offered to deliver hm to a third country for trial, but the US didn?t take up the offer. Again, the US goal was not Bin Laden, but Russia. ?CGE > On Nov 30, 2019, at 12:39 AM, John W. via Peace wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 6:49 AM Mildred O'brien via Peace wrote: > > I'm sick of "let's make a deal." The only "deal" the wheeler-dealer wants to make is HIS deal--which he will re-neg whenever he feel's like it (and then deny he ever did the deal in the first place). > > mo'b > > Amen, mo'b!! > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss > To: peace-discuss > Cc: Peace > Sent: Thu, Nov 28, 2019 7:45 pm > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Trump in Afghanistan > > [FT] Trump says talks with Taliban have resumed > US president Donald Trump said peace talks with the Taliban had resumed > as he made an unannounced visit to Afghanistan on Thanksgiving, > appearing at a US air force base alongside Afghan president Ashraf Ghani. > > Following a meeting with Mr Ghani, Mr Trump told reporters that the Taliban > ?wants to make a deal? and that US officials were ?meeting with them?. > > > > On Nov 28, 2019, at 7:41 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote: > > > > WSJ: "Trump Says Taliban Peace Talks to Resume During Surprise Afghanistan Visit? > > > > > > In the early 1960's, some US military would say of Kennedy's attack on South Vietnam, "It's a dirty little war - but it's the only war we've got.? > > > > Today, thanks most recently to Obama - the first US president to be at war throughout two presidential terms - they needn't say that about Afghanistan: he's left seven others to choose from, having attacked Iraq, Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well. > > > > But the permanent government (notably Democrat ?liberals?) insist on removing Trump for fear he'll end the killing in Afghanistan and elsewhere? > > > > ?CGE > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace From jbn at forestfield.org Mon Dec 2 03:51:18 2019 From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 21:51:18 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Notes Message-ID: <43fa18aa-914c-14af-6bc7-e4d739538303@forestfield.org> I'm not sure how much time I'll have to spend on writing more notes this week so I'll post what I have now. Have a good show, Carl & David. -J War/Economy: How much is the Forever War costing us? https://moneymaven.io/mishtalk/economics/forever-war-in-the-last-20-years-cost-6-4-trillion-L9NxuUD1IkaKtzSdMelQDQ/ > Since 911, the cost of Forever War totals $6.4 Trillion and 801,000 > killed including 335,000 dead civilians. For What? > > Neta C. Crawford, Professor and Chair of the Department of Political > Science at Boston University and a co-director of the Costs of War > Project at Brown University calculates the Cost of 20 Years of War[1] [1] https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2019/US%20Budgetary%20Costs%20of%20Wars%20November%202019.pdf How do we bamboozle the people into (literally and figuratively) buying endless war (called "Forever War")? Change the names of the wars to hide the total spent: > One potential barrier for civilians to understanding the total scale > and costs of the post-9/11 wars is the changes in the naming of the > wars. The US military designates main war zones in Afghanistan, > Pakistan, Iraq, and Syria as named operations. The longest war so far, > in Afghanistan and Pakistan, has had two names: Operation Enduring > Freedom, designated the first phase of war in Afghanistan from October > 2001; it was designated Operation Freedom?s Sentinel on 1 January 2015. > The war in Iraq was designated Operation Iraqi Freedom from March 2003 > to 31 August 2010, when it became Operation New Dawn. When the US began > to fight in Syria and Iraq, the war was designated Operation Inherent > Resolve. For ease of understanding, the costs are not labeled here by > their OCO [Overseas Contingency Operations] designation, but by major > war zone ? namely Afghanistan and Pakistan, and Iraq and later Iraq and > Syria. Hide the funding as emergency spending: > OCO [Overseas Contingency Operations] spending is considered emergency > spending. Emergency appropriations for the DOD are not subject to the > same detailed Congressional oversight and limits as regular, or ?base? > budget non-emergency appropriations, for costs that endure whether or > not the US is at war. Shift the expenses to exceed the budget: > In FY 2019, the Trump Administration made the practice of shifting > emergency OCO appropriations into the base budget overt when it > introduced new ways of categorizing the Department of Defense spending > related to the Overseas Contingency Operations. Some of the funding that > was previously designated for specific military operations has now been > moved into a category called ?OCO for Enduring Theater Requirements and > Related Missions? and another, ?OCO for Base Requirements.? [...] > These changes are specifically and explicitly intended to get around > Congressionally imposed limits on the base defense budget. The > Department of Defense FY2020 request explicitly stated as much: "These > base budget requirements are funded in the OCO budget due to limits on > budget defense caps enacted in the Budget Control Act of 2011." How many people have died in these wars? > The American Conservative comments the Costs of Forever War: 335,000 > Dead Civilians and $6.4 Trillion.[1] > > The amount of money spent on these wars cannot fully convey their sheer > wastefulness. Wars are always expensive, and they usually end up being > much more expensive than anyone anticipates at the beginning, but when > those wars are unnecessary and useless it makes the exorbitant cost that > much more sickening. The money and resources expended on almost twenty > years of failed wars could have been put to any number of more > productive uses. Instead, that vast sum has been poured down the drain. > As it is, the U.S. has little or nothing to show for the massive > malinvestment that it has made in fighting these wars. These wars have > not made the U.S. more secure, they have created more enemies than they > destroyed, and they have set fires in their respective regions that will > take years to burn out. As staggering as the $6.4 trillion figure is, it > doesn?t capture how ruinous these wars have been. The U.S. will continue > to pay for these wars long after they are over in more ways than one. > > A full reckoning of the costs of our wars has to include the hundreds of > thousands dead, millions displaced, and the wreckage of multiple > countries. These are the truly senseless losses that could have been > avoided. The report details these costs as well: > > The report, from Watson Institute of International and Public Affairs at > Brown University, also finds that more than 801,000 people have died as > a direct result of fighting. Of those, more than 335,000 have been > civilians. Another 21 million people have been displaced due to > violence. > > The death and destruction that our wars inflict on the people living in > these countries are rarely mentioned in our foreign policy debates, and > these losses are almost never taken into consideration when thinking > about the costs of these wars. That encourages U.S. politicians and > policymakers to take a very cavalier approach to supporting the use of > force in other parts of the world, and it allows them to escape > accountability for the harm that these policies cause. > > For the last twenty years, there has been no limit on what the U.S. > would spend on foreign wars, and Congress and presidents of both parties > have reliably thrown more money at the Pentagon to sustain these > unwinnable wars. While there might be occasional griping about ?waste, > fraud, and abuse,? there has been no serious, consistent effort to rein > in these wars or the military budget. There has been even less interest > in grappling with the horrific human costs of our militarized foreign > policy. That has to change, and it starts with demanding that the U.S. > end its failed and open-ended wars abroad. [1] https://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/the-costs-of-forever-war-335000-dead-civilians-and-6-4-trillion/ Democrats/Impeachment: The Democrats want Trump to remain in office. Therefore the Democrats want things that help give reasons to support him without addressing issues of substance in Americans' lives. https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/471542-poll-finds-sharp-swing-in-opposition-to-impeachment-among-independents -- > A new national survey finds independent voters leading a sharp swing in > opposition to impeachment, the second major poll to produce those > findings this week. > > The latest national poll from Emerson College finds 45 percent oppose > impeaching President Trump, against 43 percent who support it. That?s a > 6-point swing in support from October, when 48 percent of voters > supported impeachment and only 44 percent opposed. > > More importantly, the poll shows more independents now oppose > impeachment than support it, a significant change from Emerson's polling > in October. The new poll found 49 percent oppose impeachment compared to > 34 percent who support it. In October, 48 percent of independents polled > supported impeachment, against 39 percent who opposed. > > Since October, Emerson has found Trump?s job approval rating jump by 5 > points, from 43 percent to 48 percent. > > This is the second poll this week to show voters are increasingly likely > to oppose impeachment, despite wall-to-wall media coverage of the House > hearings that have produced bombshell testimony about how Trump > threatened to withhold financial aid to Ukraine if the country did not > open an investigation into former Vice President Joe Biden, a top > contender for the Democratic presidential nomination. > > A Marquette University survey of Wisconsin, a battleground state that > Trump turned red in 2016 for the first time in decades, found 40 percent > think the president should be impeached and removed, against 53 percent > who do not think so. > > In October, 44 percent favored impeachment and removal and 51 percent > opposed. > > Only 36 percent of independent respondents in Wisconsin support > impeachment and removal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYwe_K9Dxio -- Jimmy Dore & co. on this including pointing out how the lack of black voter support for Pete Buttigieg and Elizabeth Warren will make either of them lose in 2020: > Jimmy Dore: So they keep saying you have to go after the center, these > independents, the Trump voters, that's how you've gotta win, you've > gotta go after these moderate Republicans and get them. Why Hillary > Clinton lost was because black and brown people would not come out to > vote for her in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. That's what > fuckin' happened to her, okay? They would not get off the couch. People > who voted for Barack Obama twice would not come out and vote for Hillary > Clinton. [...B]ecause she was for TPP which took their job away, and > they did the crime bill which put half of their fuckin' people in jail > also. So that's a big part [of it]. So now, if we go in who do we gotta > get? We gotta get the black and brown people to vote for the Democrat in > Michigan and Wisconsin. Guess what? Pete Buttigieg: zero fuckin' black > support. Zero. He has to manufacture and pretend. Elizabeth Warren: zero > fuckin' black support, okay? So if you're running Elizabeth Warren or > Pete Buttigieg you're gonna fuckin' lose again, especially in Wisconsin > and Michigan. Bernie Sanders? Is the guy who's gonna win that contest. > That's what's gonna happen, right? And expands on this (with focus on the Democratic Party-supported 3-month extension of the USA PATRIOT Act) described in https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/11/19/handing-trump-terrifying-authoritarian-surveillance-powers-house-democrats-include concluding that "any blue will do" doesn't help when the Democrats don't do what helps you. jbn: It's naive to believe that the Democratic Party can be made better from within, or that that party is run in a small-d democratic way. Sanders and Gabbard have no chance to represent the DLC corporation because as light as their systemic critique is (moreso Sanders than Gabbard since Sanders' foreign policy favors war, sanctions, and coups), that's too much criticism for the Democratic Party elites. And both of them have already pledged their support to whomever wins that party's primary (something Dore & co. hypocritically chastise Sanders for but let Gabbard slide on). Remember how Sanders was cheated (and accepted being cheated) then endorsed his cheater in the end? And remember what the DLC corporation's lawyer Bruce Spiva told us in a lawsuit brought by the disaffected supporters of Sanders' 2016 campaign (in a lawsuit that was virtually unreported even in most "alternative" news media like Democracy Now)? From http://jampac.us/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/042517cw2.pdf > Bruce Spiva: [...] We're gonna, you know, choose our standard bearer, > and we're gonna follow these general rules of the road, which we are > voluntarily deciding, we could have ? and we could have voluntarily > decided that, Look, we're gonna go into back rooms like they used to and > smoke cigars and pick the candidate that way. That's not the way it was > done. But they could have. And that would have also been their right > [...] In other words: political parties don't owe you democratic control over who represents them. The court Spiva was speaking to is way more powerful than any of the people supporting Sanders, Gabbard, or anyone else in the DLC primary. Yet Spiva knew he was right and he knew he had nothing to fear in speaking to a court as he did. He essentially told the court to keep its nose out of DLC party politics. Democrats/Identity Politics/Russiagate: The Democrats want Trump to remain in office. Therefore the Democrats want things that help give reasons to support him without addressing issues of substance in Americans' lives. Democratic Party sympathizer Tara McGowan boasts of doing what the Democrats accuse Russia doing on behalf of the Republican Party. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJQkDcEqdAo -- RT's report. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-11-25/acronym-s-newsrooms-are-a-liberal-digital-spin-on-local-news -- > While the articles she [Tara McGowan] publishes are based on facts, > nothing alerts readers that Courier publications aren?t actually > traditional hometown newspapers but political instruments designed to > get them to vote for Democrats. And although the articles are made to > resemble ordinary news, their purpose isn?t primarily to build a > readership for the website: It?s for the pieces to travel individually > through social media, amplifying their influence with persuadable > voters. > > To make this happen, McGowan is doing something else small newspapers > don?t: she?s using her sizable war chest and digital advertising savvy > to pay to have her articles placed into the Facebook feeds of > swing-state users she?s identified as most likely to respond to them, > then using that feedback to find more people like them. In digital > advertising, this is known as ?building a custom audience.? Applied to > politics, it?s more like finding and activating the 80,000 swing-state > voters Clinton was missing, who could potentially put Democrats over > the top in next year?s election. ?This is the most interesting, and > potentially important, thing happening on our side right now,? says one > unaffiliated Democratic organizer. ?If it works, it will change the > whole ballgame of how we reach and motivate our people.? [...] > Instead of boosting a news article on Facebook as a one-off promotion, > as the presidential candidates are doing, McGowan and Courier will > continually gather data on interested readers, which Facebook?for a > price?will use to find more of them. ?Everybody who clicks on, likes, or > shares an article,? says McGowan, ?we get that data back to create a > lookalike audience to find other people with similar attributes in the > same area. So we continually grow our ability to find people.? What?s > more, it?s suddenly clear that targeting voters through the guise of a > media company could provide an important edge over other methods. Last > week, Google imposed tight restrictions on microtargeting political ads, > and Facebook is weighing similar measures. But because Courier Newsroom > is a for-profit media company, McGowan says those restrictions wouldn?t > apply. > > McGowan?a former journalist herself, who worked at 60 Minutes and CBS > News?says she sees Courier Newsroom as a continuation of that work. > Despite her obvious political motivations, she says that her newspapers > will supply objective, fact-based reporting no different from what > appears in mainstream outlets. That claim will almost certainly inflame > those on the right and left who already believe that much of what passes > for news, especially on social media, is driven by political agendas > intended to manipulate unwitting readers. > > McGowan forcefully rejects this criticism. ?A lot of people I respect > will see this media company as an affront to journalistic integrity > because it won?t, in their eyes, be balanced,? she says. ?What I say to > them is, Balance does not exist anymore.? In her view, there are only > facts and lies. She cites Trump?s impeachment narrative as an > example?and as a justification for what she?s embarked on with Courier. > ?Without new innovative models for journalism at scale,? she says, > ?we?re losing the information war to verified liars pouring millions of > dollars into Facebook.? RT's report quotes the Bloomberg article and adds: > Says a 33-year-old with "Yes We Can" tattooed on her arm. But it's okay: > she's a Democrat. If a Democrat sets up a fake news network, buys out > people's personal information, serves them with political > disinformation, that's fine. But only Democrats. Recall that the Democrats used the following to explain away Hillary Clinton's loss in 2016: > [Clips from the following people are shown.] > > Sen. Charles Schumer (D-NY) in Congress: Kremlin-linked bots continue > to stoke political divisions in the US via misinformation on social > media. > > Hillary Clinton in an interview: They're so detailed -- one about the > social media interference, weaponization of information by the Russians > and their proxies, their bots, and their trolls, and everybody else. > > Rep. Hank Johnson (D-GE) in Congress: We've been paying the price from > Russia -- Russian bots -- to fake news. Americans heading to the polls > have had to grapple with the question of what is real and what is fake? > > RT reporter: Yes, they will have to question what is real and what is > fake. Democrats are literally setting up fake news websites and serving > Americans with fake news to sway elections. I mean the masks came off > last year when Democrats were caught creating fake Russian bots to set > up and smear a Republican candidate. > > [Plays clip of "CBS Evening News" with Norah O'Donnell] > > Norah O'Donnell: An explosive allegation by a government whistleblower > that the White House engaged in a cover-up by stashing records of the > President's phone call with a foreign leader in a top-secret computer. > > RT reporter: Desperate times call for desperate measures. And these are > desperate times for Democrats: no messiah, no hero candidate has come > forward to beat Trump. So, they're getting their hands dirty doing > everything they accused Russia of. Question is, on election day, why > would people vote for a side whose hands are no cleaner than Trump's? War: "Toxic legacy of US assault on Fallujah 'worse than Hiroshima': The shocking rates of infant mortality and cancer in Iraqi city raise new questions about battle" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDVJM7RQ2As -- Keiser Report coverage https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/toxic-legacy-of-us-assault-on-fallujah-worse-than-hiroshima-2034065.html Patrick Cockburn's latest for The Independent: > Dramatic increases in infant mortality, cancer and leukaemia in the > Iraqi city of Fallujah, which was bombarded by US Marines in 2004, > exceed those reported by survivors of the atomic bombs that were dropped > on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945, according to a new study. > > Iraqi doctors in Fallujah have complained since 2005 of being > overwhelmed by the number of babies with serious birth defects, ranging > from a girl born with two heads to paralysis of the lower limbs. They > said they were also seeing far more cancers than they did before the > battle for Fallujah between US troops and insurgents. > > Their claims have been supported by a survey showing a four-fold > increase in all cancers and a 12-fold increase in childhood cancer in > under-14s. Infant mortality in the city is more than four times higher > than in neighbouring Jordan and eight times higher than in Kuwait. > > Dr Chris Busby, a visiting professor at the University of Ulster and one > of the authors of the survey of 4,800 individuals in Fallujah, said it > is difficult to pin down the exact cause of the cancers and birth > defects. He added that "to produce an effect like this, some very major > mutagenic exposure must have occurred in 2004 when the attacks > happened". > > US Marines first besieged and bombarded Fallujah, 30 miles west of > Baghdad, in April 2004 after four employees of the American security > company Blackwater were killed and their bodies burned. After an > eight-month stand-off, the Marines stormed the city in November using > artillery and aerial bombing against rebel positions. US forces later > admitted that they had employed white phosphorus as well as other > munitions. > > In the assault US commanders largely treated Fallujah as a free-fire > zone to try to reduce casualties among their own troops. British > officers were appalled by the lack of concern for civilian casualties. > "During preparatory operations in the November 2004 Fallujah clearance > operation, on one night over 40 155mm artillery rounds were fired into a > small sector of the city," recalled Brigadier Nigel Aylwin-Foster, a > British commander serving with the American forces in Baghdad. > > He added that the US commander who ordered this devastating use of > firepower did not consider it significant enough to mention it in his > daily report to the US general in command. Dr Busby says that while he > cannot identify the type of armaments used by the Marines, the extent of > genetic damage suffered by inhabitants suggests the use of uranium in > some form. He said: "My guess is that they used a new weapon against > buildings to break through walls and kill those inside." > > The survey was carried out by a team of 11 researchers in January and > February this year who visited 711 houses in Fallujah. A questionnaire > was filled in by householders giving details of cancers, birth outcomes > and infant mortality. Hitherto the Iraqi government has been loath to > respond to complaints from civilians about damage to their health during > military operations. > > Researchers were initially regarded with some suspicion by locals, > particularly after a Baghdad television station broadcast a report > saying a survey was being carried out by terrorists and anybody > conducting it or answering questions would be arrested. Those organising > the survey subsequently arranged to be accompanied by a person of > standing in the community to allay suspicions. > > The study, entitled "Cancer, Infant Mortality and Birth Sex-Ratio in > Fallujah, Iraq 2005-2009", is by Dr Busby, Malak Hamdan and Entesar > Ariabi, and concludes that anecdotal evidence of a sharp rise in cancer > and congenital birth defects is correct. Infant mortality was found to > be 80 per 1,000 births compared to 19 in Egypt, 17 in Jordan and 9.7 in > Kuwait. The report says that the types of cancer are "similar to that in > the Hiroshima survivors who were exposed to ionising radiation from the > bomb and uranium in the fallout". > > Researchers found a 38-fold increase in leukaemia, a ten-fold increase > in female breast cancer and significant increases in lymphoma and brain > tumours in adults. At Hiroshima survivors showed a 17-fold increase in > leukaemia, but in Fallujah Dr Busby says what is striking is not only > the greater prevalence of cancer but the speed with which it was > affecting people. > > Of particular significance was the finding that the sex ratio between > newborn boys and girls had changed. In a normal population this is 1,050 > boys born to 1,000 girls, but for those born from 2005 there was an 18 > per cent drop in male births, so the ratio was 850 males to 1,000 > females. The sex-ratio is an indicator of genetic damage that affects > boys more than girls. A similar change in the sex-ratio was discovered > after Hiroshima. > > The US cut back on its use of firepower in Iraq from 2007 because of the > anger it provoked among civilians. But at the same time there has been a > decline in healthcare and sanitary conditions in Iraq since 2003. The > impact of war on civilians was more severe in Fallujah than anywhere > else in Iraq because the city continued to be blockaded and cut off from > the rest of the country long after 2004. War damage was only slowly > repaired and people from the city were frightened to go to hospitals in > Baghdad because of military checkpoints on the road into the capital. A parallel you might not have expected comes from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwgfVbN8i6Q -- an RT program called "Watching the Hawks" which includes an RT report on unpotable water in the US based on a "U.S. Water Alliance" report. Among the things found in drinking water in US cities with unpotable water -- uranium: > More than 2,000,000 Americans live without basic access to safe drinking > water and sanitation. > > 1.4 million lack access to indoor plumbing. 250,000 people in Puerto > Rico. 553,000 homeless [people] in the United States. Native [American] > households are 19 times more likely than white households to lack indoor > plumbing. 23% of private wells tested contain arsenic, uranium, > nitrates, and e.coli. 17% of people living in rural areas report having > experienced issues with safe drinking water. 12% of people living in > rural areas report issues with their sewage system. jbn: In other words: We're exposing children here to uranium as well. Potable water problems create lifelong health problems and severely shorten lives. Business/Economy: Maybe the restaurant associations fearful picture was not something to pay attention to. https://www.axios.com/minimum-wage-job-loss-predictions-not-true-dcda5eac-996d-4539-a07e-12933eef4bca.html > Eighteen states rang in 2019 with minimum wage increases ? some that > will ultimately rise as high as $15 an hour ? and so far, opponents' > dire predictions of job losses have not come true. > > What it means: The data paint a clear picture: Higher minimum wage > requirements haven't reduced hiring in low-wage industries or overall. > > State of play: Opponents have long argued that raising the minimum wage > will cause workers to lose their jobs and prompt fast food chains (and > other stores) to raise prices. > > But job losses and price hikes haven't been pronounced in the aftermath > of a recent wave of city and state wage-boost laws. > > And more economists are arguing that the link between minimum wage hikes > and job losses was more hype than science. [...] > Cities and states around the country are taking action as the federal > minimum wage ? $7.25 an hour ? "has remained unchanged for the longest > stretch of time since its 1938 inception under the Fair Labor Standards > Act," according to a recent paper by the New York Fed. > > Cities like New York, Seattle, Chicago and San Francisco have raised > local minimum wages, and individual companies have done so as well: > Amazon set its minimum at $15 an hour last year. > > As of July: "14 states plus the District of Columbia?home to 35% of > Americans?have minimum wages above $10 per hour, as do numerous > localities scattered across other states," according to the N.Y. Fed. > > Laws in New York, California, Connecticut, Illinois, Maryland, > Massachusetts, and New Jersey will eventually increase minimum wages to > $15 per hour. > > Axios used Bureau of Labor Statistics data to compare job growth rates > in four states with low minimum wages vs. eight states with high minimum > wages: > > Since 2016, when California became the first state to pass the $15 > minimum wage law, all 12 states have seen growth in restaurant, bar and > hotel jobs. Three of the four states with job growth higher than the > U.S. median have passed laws that will raise the state minimum wage to > at least $13.50. Three of the five states with the slowest job growth > rates did not have a state minimum wage above the federal minimum of > $7.25 an hour. An outlier was Massachusetts, which had the slowest job > growth in the sector and currently has the highest state minimum wage: > $12 an hour. > > The big picture: A number of peer-reviewed academic studies have found > little to no impact on hiring as states and municipalities have raised > the minimum wage. > > Rather, such increases are likely to have increased hiring in the strong > U.S. economy, Bill Spriggs, chief economist at labor union AFL-CIO, > tells Axios. > > Yes, but: There could still be negative long-term effects, such as > businesses choosing to locate in states with lower minimum wage > requirements, according to the N.Y. Fed's study. > > "The danger is extrapolating too far and saying, 'We should raise wages > to $30 an hour,'" Swonk says. "The current minimum wage increases were > successful because they were regionally based, and not national or > one-size-fits-all." Business/Health: "Indonesia's food chain turns toxic as plastic waste exports flood in: Study of chicken egg samples reveals presence of dangerous chemical compounds around areas where waste is dumped" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDVJM7RQ2As -- Keiser Report coverage https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/nov/15/indonesias-food-chain-turns-toxic-as-plastic-waste-exports-flood-in -- > Plastic waste exports to south-east Asia have been implicated in extreme > levels of toxins entering the human food chain in Indonesia. > > A new study that sampled chicken eggs around sites in the country where > plastic waste accumulates identified alarming levels of dioxins and > polychlorinated biphenyls[1] long recognised as extremely injurious to > human health. > > In one location the level of dioxins in eggs collected near an > Indonesian factory that burns plastics for fuel were similar to levels > in eggs collected near the notorious Agent Orange hotspot in Bien Hoa, > Vietnam, which is considered one of the most dioxin-contaminated > locations on Earth. > > The study is the first to demonstrate food chain contamination in > south-east Asia with high levels of hazardous chemicals as a consequence > of waste mismanagement and plastic waste imports. > > The report ? Plastic Waste Poisons Indonesia?s Food Chain[2] ? was > compiled by researchers from the global environmental health network > IPEN, along with the Arnika Association and several local Indonesian > organisations. > > According to the study, an adult eating just one egg from a free-range > chicken foraging in the vicinity of the tofu factory in Tropodo would > exceed the European Food Safety Authority tolerable daily intake for > chlorinated dioxins by seventy-fold. > > Researchers collected and analysed free-range chicken eggs from the > Bangun and Tropodo communities in East Java, locations that have been > inundated with imported plastic waste since China closed its doors to > such waste in 2018. > > By contrast, Indonesia?s import volume doubled between 2017 and 2018, > with residents in some areas burning piles of plastic waste to reduce > the volume clogging streets and piling up around houses. In Tropodo, the > waste is used to fuel local tofu factories. > > Eggs collected in the communities were found to contain highly hazardous > banned chemicals including dioxins, flame retardants, and the toxic > ?forever chemical?, perfluorooctanesulfonic acid (PFOS). > > Numerous studies have linked the chemicals found in the eggs with a host > of health impacts. Dioxin exposure is linked to a variety of serious > illnesses in humans, including cardiovascular disease, cancer, diabetes, > and endometriosis. Flame retardant chemicals, short-chain chlorinated > paraffins and polybrominated diphenyl ethers disrupt endocrine function > and negatively affect reproductive health. > > PFOS causes reproductive and immune system damage, and internal company > documents indicate that manufacturers knew about its toxicity for > decades, but continued making it. > > ?Plastic waste is a serious toxic chemical pollution problem,? said > Yuyun Ismawati, co-founder of Nexus3, one of the Indonesian NGOs > involved. > > ?Our results should ring alarm bells in every community trying to deal > with a tsunami of plastic waste. The global north needs to stop treating > the global south as its waste bin.? [1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/may/14/race-on-rid-uk-oceans-pcbs-killer-whale-lulu [2] https://ipen.org/documents/plastic-waste-poisons-indonesia-food-chain Labor: French vs. American reception of "black friday" with Amazon.com -- Americans consume, French protest abusive labor practices https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/11/29/black-friday-protests-across-europe-demand-amazon-start-treating-workers-humans-not > Labor rights activists and climate campaigners across Europe used the > occasion of Black Friday, the busiest shopping day of the year, to call > attention to and protest Amazon's "appalling" working conditions, paltry > benefits, and destructive environmental practices. > > "Workers are breaking bones, being knocked unconscious, and being taken > away in ambulances," said Mick Rix, national officer with the GMB Union, > which organized demonstrations at Amazon warehouses across the United > Kingdom on Friday. > > "Amazon has spent a fortune on fluffy adverts saying what a great place > it is to work," Rix added. "Why not spend the money making their > warehouses less dangerous places to work? Amazon workers want Jeff Bezos > to know they are people?not robots." > > GMB said Amazon employees at locations throughout the U.K. have reported > being denied restroom breaks, penalized for taking sick days, and forced > to work at a dangerous pace to meet the retail behemoth's productivity > goals. > > "GMB members report targets being so horrific they have to use plastic > bottles to urinate in instead of going to the toilet, and pregnant women > have been forced to stand for hours on end," the union said in a > statement. [...] > In France, demonstrators held sit-ins at Amazon's Clichy headquarters to > condemn the retail giant's contributions to the climate crisis. > > "We criticize Amazon for having a destructive policy for the planet, for > social conditions, and Black Friday allows this company to achieve > exponential revenue," said activist Sandy Olivar Calvo. [...] > At an Amazon distribution center near Lyon, France, police assaulted and > forcibly removed demonstrators who staged a sit-in to condemn the > corporation's climate practices Drug war: excuse for invasion & occupation? Did Rep. Gabbard's debate warn us of the insanity of this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_8Qtklr-AY -- Pres. Trump designates Mexican drug cartels as "terrorists". Who benefits? Weapons manufacturers, anyone who pushed for using the US military as "police" force. And, by the way, this is what Rep. Gabbard warned about in her latest debate with Mayor Pete Buttigieg when he tried to shift the goalposts from endorsing doing what Trump is now doing to making it look like invading Mexico was beyond the pale (which operations like this could very well become). Related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_6qq6wGhoY -- Father Jesse and son Tyrel Ventura discuss this story on "Watching the Hawks". jbn: One correction to what Jesse said here when he remarked "I can foresee drones used on US citizens", this has already occurred. Father & son Al-Awlaki, both US citizens, were assassinated weeks apart by the Obama administration in separate drone strikes. These were impeachable acts but no Congressperson in either corporate party brought articles of impeachment against Pres. Obama for either murder. The related killings of everyone in the area are also grounds for questioning the stance of anyone who supports the drone war (such as Sen. Bernie Sanders and Rep. Tulsi Gabbard have expressed in separate interviews dating back to 2016). I recently re-watched "National Bird" a documentary from 2016 about the drone war and I came across an interesting quote that reminded me of Rep. Tulsi Gabbard's support for drone war: Rep. Tulsi Gabbard from https://theintercept.com/2018/01/17/intercepted-podcast-white-mirror/ > So, with these terrorist cells, for example, yes, I do still believe > that the right approach to take is these quick strike forces, surgical > strikes, in and out, very quickly, no long-term deployment, no > long-term occupation to be able to get rid of the threat that exists and > then get out and the very limited use of drones in those situations > where our military is not able to get in without creating an > unacceptable level of risk, and where you can make sure that you?re not > causing, you know, a large amount of civilian casualties. Gabbard is commonly referred to in the press as "anti-war" by both critics and supporters. Such statements routinely don't refer the audience to this 2018 Intercept interview or to a 2019 Primo Nutmeg interview where she reiterated her drone war support. Heather Linebaugh served in the United States Air Force from 2009 until March 2012. Her bio in The Guardian says she worked in intelligence as an imagery analyst and geo-spatial analyst for the drone program during the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan. Two years before Rep. Gabbard said the above Heather Linebaugh said the following in the documentary "National Bird": > Hearing politicians speak about drones being precision weapons, being > able to make 'surgical strikes', to me it's completely ridiculous, > completely ludicrous to even make those statements. It's as flawed as > it can be with those people operating it from across the world. If they > really think they can send a bomb through a window of a compound and > hit one militant then why are we seeing so many civilians die of > collateral damage? I'd like to ask those politicians have they not been > notified of that? Do they not know what's going on in their own war that > they're controlling? To coin a neologism, I'd call Linebaugh's remark a "prebuttal" -- a rebuttal that came before the statement being rebutted. Linebaugh is also the author of: "I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on" https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/29/drones-us-military https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR8uLC5mIeY -- Bolivian TV operator announced that RT Spanish will be taken off the air starting on December 2, 2019. Bolivian TV cable provider Cotas, a private company, has not given a reason for the change. Ecuador has also cut off RT Spanish, and no reason was given there either. > Cotas TV operator: This is a decision taken by the company's > administration, which tasked us with shutting down the channel's > broadcast. jbn: It seems likely that this is related to the US-backed Bolivian coup. If Venezuela succumbs to their US-backed coup, what will happen to RT broadcasts there? RT is widely known to recognize Juan Guaido as a self-selected president or "opposition leader" instead of calling him Venezuela's legitimate president as the US has said they want the press to call Guaido. In RT's report on Bolivian cable outlet Cotas pulling RT Spanish, RT interviewed Chuck Kaufman who is credited as part of the "Alliance for Global Justice, think tank": > Chuck Kaufman: [The] coup government in Bolivia is struggling to > establish itself against massive resistance and they can't afford for > people to hear alternative voices to the news that they want, the > message that they want to get out there. Because they have to have > control of the message[; ...] if people have free access to information > they're gonna see that other people in their country are suffering the > way that they're suffering and they're going to know that the reason for > that suffering is this military coup that this [is an] illegitimate > government that is being imposed on them and the resistance will > continue and grow. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50573069 -- The BBC reports that Apple altered its map when viewed from Russia: > Apple has complied with Russian demands to show the annexed Crimean > peninsula as part of Russian territory on its apps. > > Russian forces annexed Crimea from Ukraine in March 2014, drawing > international condemnation. > > The region, which has a Russian-speaking majority, is now shown as > Russian territory on Apple Maps and its Weather app, when viewed from > Russia. > > But the apps do not show it as part of any country when viewed > elsewhere. > > The State Duma, the Russian parliament's lower house, said in a > statement: "Crimea and Sevastopol now appear on Apple devices as > Russian territory." > > Russia treats the naval port city of Sevastopol as a separate region. > > The BBC tested several iPhones in Moscow and it appears the change > affects devices set up to use the Russian edition of Apple's App Store. > > Apple had been in talks with Russia for several months over what the > State Duma described as "inaccuracy" in the way Crimea was labelled. > > The tech giant originally suggested it could show Crimea as undefined > territory - part of neither Russia nor Ukraine. > > But Vasily Piskaryov, chairman of the Duma security and anti-corruption > committee, said Apple had complied with the Russian constitution. > > He said representatives of the company were reminded that labelling > Crimea as part of Ukrainian territory was a criminal offence under > Russian law, according to Interfax news agency. > > "There is no going back," Mr Piskaryov said. "Today, with Apple, the > situation is closed - we have received everything we wanted." [...] RT covered a similar situation with Google's map on 2019-03-05 https://www.rt.com/shows/news-with-rick-sanchez/453117-news-with-rick-sanchez-march/ > Google acknowledges Crimea as Russian > > Google Maps suddenly shows a broken line separating Crimea from Russia > -- a subtle acknowledgment, much to the consternation of NATO, that > Crimea is indeed part of Russia and not of Ukraine. [...] https://cdnv.rt.com/files/2019.03/5c7f2d6dfc7e93614b8b45eb.mp4 has the video (hooray to RT for hosting its own video rather than letting Google censor them, but I don't understand why they don't do this all the time for all of their videos). Healthcare/economy: Do American HMOs want to run the UK's National Health Service? Is there a plan in place to accomplish this? Jeremy Corbyn said there is. Compare what Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn say about secret US/UK talks about the NHS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fTffUvBFZs -- UK Prime Minister and leader of the Conservative Party Boris Johnson said: > Boris Johnson: We are absolutely resolved that there will be no sale of > the NHS, no privatisation, the NHS is not on the table in any way. > > Questioner: Not drug patents? > > Boris Johnson: In no way, the NHS is in no way on the table, in no > aspect whatever and this, as I say, is continually brought up by the > Labour Party as a diversionary tactic from the difficulties they are > encountering particularly over the problem about leadership on > anti-Semitism and then the great vacuity about their policy on Brexit, > nobody knows what side Mr. Corbyn would come down on, in fact he said > he's going to be neutral so you're left wondering what the point is of > his doing this deal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wTwu0zl1XQ -- Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn said: > Jeremy Corbyn: If you watch the first TV debate between me and Boris > Johnson you'll have seen me hold up these censored, blacked-out reports > [Corbyn held up a hardcopy of censored blacked-out reports]. Pages and > pages of censored blacked-out reports of secret US and UK talks about > breaking open our NHS to US corporations and thus driving up the cost of > medicines. What I have here [Corbyn unzipped a black case holding a > hardcopy of a document which he removed from the case and then held up] > is something I can reveal to you. 451 pages of unredacted documents > and information, all of it here [people dressed in scrubs handed out > copies of a document to people assembled in the hall where Corbyn was > speaking]. His [Boris Johnson's] government released this [presumably > was holding the censored document], we [the Labour Party] have since > released this [presumably holding the uncensored document] which is a > very different version of events. Perhaps he would like to explain why > these documents confirm the US is demanding the NHS is on the table in > the trade talks. These uncensored documents leave Boris Johnson's > denials in absolute tatters. Voters need to ask themselves some very > serious questions. Is the NHS safe in Boris Johnson's hands? Bolivia: Coup plotters were trained in US' "School of the Americas" https://thegrayzone.com/2019/11/13/bolivian-coup-plotters-school-of-the-americas-fbi-police-programs/ -- The Grayzone's report on this. > The United States played a key role in the military coup in Bolivia, > and in a direct way that has scarcely been acknowledged in accounts of > the events that forced the country?s elected president, Evo Morales, to > resign on November 10. > > Just prior to Morales? resignation, the commander of Bolivia?s armed > forces Williams Kaliman ?suggested? that the president step down. A day > earlier, sectors of the country?s police force had rebelled. > > Though Kaliman appears to have feigned loyalty to Morales over the > years, his true colors showed as soon as the moment of opportunity > arrived. He was not only an actor in the coup, he had his own history > in Washington, where he had briefly served as the military attach? of > Bolivia?s embassy in the US capital. > > Kaliman sat at the top of a military and police command structure that > has been substantially cultivated by the US through WHINSEC [Western > Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation], the military training > school in Fort Benning, Georgia known in the past as the School of the > Americas. Kaliman himself attended a course called ?Comando y Estado > Mayor? at the SOA in 2003. > > At least six of the key coup plotters are alumni of the infamous School > of the Americas, while Kaliman and another figure served in the past as > Bolivia?s military and police attach?s in Washington. > > Within the Bolivian police, top commanders who helped launch the coup > have passed through the APALA police exchange program. Working out of > Washington DC, APALA functions to build relations between U.S. > authorities and police officials from Latin American states. Despite > its influence, or perhaps because of it, the program maintains little > public presence. Its staff was impossible for this researcher to reach > by phone. [...] > Leaked audio[1] reported[2] on Bolivian news website La ?poca, and by > elperiodicocr.com[3] and a range of national media outlets, reveals > that covert coordination[4] took place between current and former > Bolivian police, military, and opposition leaders in bringing about the > coup. > > Los audios de la conspiraci?n del #GolpeDeEstadoEnBolivia. Por > @elperiodicocr https://t.co/lw2qjpqsmm pic.twitter.com/P4M4dbIw2W > > ? Rompeviento TV (@RompevientoTV) November 10, 2019[5] > > The leaked audio recordings show that former Cochabamba mayor and > former presidential candidate Manfred Reyes Villa played a central role > in the plot. Reyes happens to be an alumnus of WHINSEC (formerly known > as the School of the Americas), who currently resides in the United > States. > > The other four who are introduced or introduce themselves by name in > the leaked audio are General Remberto Siles Vasquez (audio 12[6]); > Colonel Julio C?sar Maldonado Leoni (audio 8[7] and 9[8]); Colonel Oscar > Pacello Aguirre (audio 14[9]), and Colonel Teobaldo Cardozo Guevara > (audio 10[10]). All four of these ex-military officials attended the > SOA. > > Cardozo Guevara, in particular, boasts[11] about his connections > amongst active officers. > > The identities of these individuals are confirmed by cross-checking the > data of the School of Americas[12] Watch lists[13] of alumni with > Facebook and local Bolivian news articles and the leaked audio > recordings[14]. > > The School of the Americas is a notorious site of education[15] for > Latin American coup plotters dating back to the height of the Cold War. > Brutal regime change and reprisal operations from Haiti to Honduras have > been carried out by SOA graduates, and some of the most bloodstained > juntas in the region?s history have been run by the school?s alumni. > > For many years, anti-war protesters have staged a protest vigil outside > the SOA?s headquarters at the Fort Benning military base near Columbus, > Georgia. [1] https://erbol.com.bo/nacional/surgen-16-audios-que-vinculan-c%C3%ADvicos-exmilitares-y-eeuu-en-planes-de-agitaci%C3%B3n [2] https://www.en24.news/news/2019/11/10/bolivia-audios-leaked-from-opposition-leaders-calling-for-a-coup-against-evo-morales.html [3] https://elperiodicocr.com/bolivia-filtran-audios-de-lideres-opositores-llamando-a-un-golpe-de-estado-contra-evo-morales/ [4] https://nos24.com/2019/08/15/kaliman-pisotea-la-constitucion-militares-molestos-en-bolivia/ [5] https://twitter.com/RompevientoTV/status/1193669345261576194 [6] https://soundcloud.com/elperiodicocr/audio-12 https://soundcloud.com/elperiodicocr/audio-8-1 [7] https://soundcloud.com/elperiodicocr/audio-8-1 [8] https://soundcloud.com/elperiodicocr/audio-9 [9] https://soundcloud.com/elperiodicocr/audio-14 [10] https://soundcloud.com/elperiodicocr/audio-10 [11] https://soundcloud.com/elperiodicocr/audio-10 [12] http://www.derechos.org/soa/bo-qz.html [13] http://www.soawlatina.org/graduados.htm [14] https://elperiodicocr.com/bolivia-filtran-audios-de-lideres-opositores-llamando-a-un-golpe-de-estado-contra-evo-morales/ [15] https://www.mintpressnews.com/the-school-of-the-americas-is-still-exporting-death-squads/204655/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJDXJkqhpxI -- RT is one of very few news outlets that cover what's going on in Bolivia as a coup and very few outlets that tell us about the extent of the US involvement in this coup (hint: this coup, like so many other Latin America coups, is fully US-backed). Redacted Tonight's show clip covers this and a related Jacobin article -- https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/11/el-salvador-murders-jesuits-uca-school-of-the-americas -- where: > The veteran US solidarity organization School of the Americas Watch[1] > was formed in response to the Jesuit massacre and hosts an annual vigil > at the gates of Fort Benning to denounce the US role in crimes across > the hemisphere. The group estimates that over eighty-three thousand > Latin American state security forces have been trained at the site, > which now bears the deceptively benign title of Western Hemisphere > Institute for Security Cooperation (WHINSEC). These graduates have > carried out coups, massacres, assassinations, torture, disappearances, > economic destabilization, and mass displacement. Recently, ICE > revealed[2] that agents will train in domestic ?urban warfare? at Fort > Benning, bringing SOA?s counterinsurgency project full circle. [1] http://www.soaw.org/fort-benning-november/ [2] https://www.newsweek.com/ice-fails-redact-document-reveals-location-urban-warfare-training-facility-1458732 Labor: Google fires employees who, Google claims, were in violation of policy but Google co-workers claim were fired for unionizing. The case for Google's story is not as convincing as the case described by fellow Google co-workers. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-11-25/google-fires-four-employees-citing-data-security-violations -- > Google fired four employees for what the technology giant said were > violations of its data-security policies, escalating tension between > management and activist workers at a company once revered for its open > corporate culture. > > Alphabet Inc.?s Google sent an email describing the decision, titled > ?Securing our data,? to all employees on Monday, according to a copy of > the document obtained by Bloomberg News. The company confirmed the > contents of the memo but declined to comment further. > > Some Google staff have been protesting and organizing in the past two > years over issues including the company?s work with the military, a > censored search service in China and its handling of executives accused > of sexual harassment. > > Some supporters of the fired workers said the organizing activities led > to their dismissals. > > ?With these firings, Google is ramping up its illegal retaliation,? > according to a statement from workers who are organizing at the company. > ?This is classic union busting dressed up in tech industry jargon, and > we won?t stand for it.? > > In recent weeks, some workers have cited management moves -- such as > implementing a tracking tool on employee?s web browsers[1] and hiring a > consulting firm known for anti-union work -- as attempts to curb > activism. The company has denied those charges. > > One Google employee wrote on Twitter that the company was firing the > employees to stamp out internal dissension. > > Harassers get millions of dollars but queer activists are getting fired. > Organizers are getting fired. This is a clear signal. ? Timnit Gebru > (@timnitGebru) November 25, 2019[2] > > On Friday, more than 200 people demonstrated outside Google?s San > Francisco office for a protest organized by staff. The protesters > demanded the company reinstate two employees who had been put on > administrative leave, Rebecca Rivers and Laurence Berland. > > On Monday, Rivers tweeted that she had been terminated from her job. > Rivers confirmed the tweet but declined to comment further. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-23/google-accused-of-creating-spy-tool-to-squelch-worker-dissent [2] https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1199072773559083008 [...] > Federal labor law restricts retaliation against employees for collective > action. ?When other employees have engaged in the conduct Google cites > in its memo, have they been fired?? said Jeffrey Hirsch, a University of > North Carolina law professor and former National Labor Relations Board > attorney. ?If not, Google will likely have to reinstate the employees > and pay them back pay.? https://medium.com/@GoogleWalkout/googles-next-moonshot-union-busting-7bd2784dc690 -- > Four of our colleagues took a stand and organized for a better > workplace. This is explicitly condoned in Google?s Code of Conduct, > which ends: ????????And remember? don?t be evil, and if you see > something that you think isn?t right ? speak up.? > > When they did, Google retaliated against them. Today, after putting two > of them on sudden and unexplained leave, the company fired all four in > an attempt to crush worker organizing. > > Here?s how it went down: Google hired a union-busting firm. Around the > same time Google redrafted its policies, making it a fireable offense to > even look at certain documents. And let?s be clear, looking at such > documents is a big part of Google culture; the company describes it as a > benefit in recruiting, and even encourages new hires to read docs from > projects all across the company. Which documents were off limits after > this policy change? The policy was unclear, even explicitly stating the > documents didn?t have to be labeled to be off limits. No meaningful > guidance has ever been offered on how employees could consistently > comply with this policy. The policy change amounted to: access at your > own risk and let executives figure out whether you should be punished > after the fact. > > We knew then, and it?s clear now: this policy change was setting up an > excuse to retaliate against organizers, allowing the company a pretext > for picking and choosing who to target. > > Using this policy, Google did all it could to frame our colleagues as > ?leakers.? This is a lie. And Google confirmed this when pressured. As > Laurence, one of those fired today, said during a workers? rally in San > Francisco on Friday November 22nd, ?I asked Google?s Global > Investigations team, am I being accused of leaking? Their answer was one > word: ?No.? This isn?t about leaking.? > > With these firings, Google is ramping up its illegal retaliation against > workers engaging in protected organizing. This is classic union busting > dressed up in tech industry jargon, and we won?t stand for it. [...] Freedom of speech: Nina Paley (the artist behind "Sita Sings the Blues" and "Seder-Masochism" among other works) launches "Neenster" (https://neenster.org/) where you can submit to her authority. jbn: What is Neenster's censorship policy? On her blog (https://blog.ninapaley.com/2019/11/30/introducing-neenster/) Nina Paley wrote: > I plan to moderate Neenster like I ?moderate? my fecebook wall: mostly > by doing nothing, but occasionally blocking particularly abusive and > annoying people according to how much they piss me off. Ideally users > will moderate themselves by using their god-given blocking fingers. > Remember: MUTE and/or BLOCK. It?s like brushing your teeth, but for your > sanity. Other speech-related restrictions on Neenster can be found on https://neenster.org/about (archived on https://archive.md/Xx6mq on 2019-11-30) The lack of clarity about what will be censored makes Neenster no better for most users than any of the other more well-advertised social media sites out there. After all, despite the published terms of service you really don't know what the operative censorship policies are on Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and the other more well-advertised services. It's not hard to point to something hosted on each of those services which contradict the ostensible rules. Ultimately the "fediverse" (a portmanteau of "federated universe" of social media sites) does nothing to challenge the central problem of the modern-day Internet: one must comply with a number of mostly-unaccountable private entities to publish anything online. One's best bet at getting past the censors is to publish the same material with many services in the hope that some of the services will either be slow to censor or not coordinate their censorship (as was done to Alex Jones of InfoWars when he was simultaneously kicked off of Facebook, Apple, YouTube, Vimeo, Pinterest, Mailchimp, LinkedIn, PayPal, and Spotify in 2018). In practical terms, one's freedom of speech would be better maintained by offering an easy means of sharing published works even in the face of such coordinated censorship (perhaps via a user-maintained publishing mechanism like Bittorrent) instead of encouraging users to submit to one service over others. Regarding muting and blocking responses one doesn't want others to read: to the extent that these functions stop others from commenting on one's posts, this is merely giving censor controls to service users. These functions also raise a privacy issue: having the service track the mute/block status means relying on a site one doesn't control. The site could edit the list without one's approval or share this list with others. A better design is the approach used by netnews (known for Usenet groups): one maintains ones own file on their own computer which lists the characteristics of posts one does not want to read. Such posts are blocked only for oneself; on widely-distributed netnews groups (such as Usenet groups) one doesn't have the power to block others from reading those posts. No participating server has a perfect idea of what one wants to block. And this gets directly into one very big (and usually unacknowledged) reason why people like the web -- websites are centralized. Centralized publishing means increased control over what others get to read. From moboct1 at aim.com Mon Dec 2 13:50:58 2019 From: moboct1 at aim.com (Mildred O'brien) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 13:50:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] REVEALED: New Details on The Killing of JFK & His Lover Mary Meyer In-Reply-To: References: <2ab5175e797cf44579dae2f21.24d5dd889d.20191201173525.96ae7bce70.5cf68c93@mail182.suw18.rsgsv.net> Message-ID: <1649858655.2000576.1575294658381@mail.yahoo.com> This 'revelation' is hardly news but has been public for many years, unless there is evidence that Mary Pinchot? Meyer (sister-in-law of Ben Bradley and involved with J.J Angleton in the theft of her diary)?was murdered by her ex-husband Cord Meyer, head of CIA Covert Action.? Midge -----Original Message----- From: Karen Aram To: Peace-discuss List Sent: Sun, Dec 1, 2019 11:55 am Subject: Re: REVEALED: New Details on The Killing of JFK & His Lover Mary Meyer On Dec 1, 2019, at 09:35, Redacted Tonight wrote: | | | | Please add?LeeRedacted at Outlook.com?to your contact list to help us avoid spam filters. (You can also?view this email in your browser.) ? | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Hey Karen Even though there is not a new?Redacted Tonight?this week, THERE IS a gripping new episode of?Redacted: VIP?about the assassination of JFK and his lover Mary Meyer - within the span of one year.?Even if you don't normally watch my interview show, trust me - you'll want to see this one! You'll learn how the CIA hit took place, how carefully it was orchestrated, and why the killers did it in broad daylight. Click here to watch.? Secondly, there's a new web-exclusive episode of?Moment of Clarity?in which I reveal what Human Rights Watch won't dare tell you.?Click here?to watch?Moment of Clarity. Keep fighting, Lee P.S. -?My new book?is now available for pre-order and there's a UK/ Europe site as well!?Click for details. It includes an intro from Jimmy Dore and a foreword by Chris Hedges. ? | | | | Click To Watch Redacted Tonight: VIP | | | | | | | | | | All rights reserved. Click to subscribe to Redacted Tonight?youtube page. Click to?unsubscribe?from this mailing list. | | | | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Mon Dec 2 14:21:30 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 08:21:30 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Robert_Reich=E2=80=99s_letter_to_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYTW92ZU9u4oCZIENPUlJFQ1RFRA==?= In-Reply-To: References: <3AF248DC-2DDA-46AB-9D70-DBE8476C7709@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: <477A2796-FEB2-4E64-BC6D-4328BAAFC796@newsfromneptune.com> Is this some sort of fantasy? > On Nov 28, 2019, at 12:11 AM, Karen Medina via Peace-discuss wrote: > > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 1970 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 1980 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 1990 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2000 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2010 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2011 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2012 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2013 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2014 > "Impeach them all." - Carl Estabrook, 2015. [Full stop.] > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From karenaram at hotmail.com Mon Dec 2 14:42:37 2019 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 06:42:37 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] REVEALED: New Details on The Killing of JFK & His Lover Mary Meyer In-Reply-To: <1649858655.2000576.1575294658381@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2ab5175e797cf44579dae2f21.24d5dd889d.20191201173525.96ae7bce70.5cf68c93@mail182.suw18.rsgsv.net> <1649858655.2000576.1575294658381@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It may have been public news for many years, but it?s relatively new for those of us who don?t really care, and have always suspected the CIA was behind it, just as they are behind, in front, and all over the place responsible for thousands of deaths around the world. Even the killing of Mary Meyer, unless evidence is provided in the book, is speculation, and as you say, ?nothing new? given it?s the CIA behind it. > On Dec 2, 2019, at 05:50, Mildred O'brien wrote: > > This 'revelation' is hardly news but has been public for many years, unless there is evidence that Mary Pinchot Meyer (sister-in-law of Ben Bradley and involved with J.J Angleton in the theft of her diary) was murdered by her ex-husband Cord Meyer, head of CIA Covert Action. > > Midge > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Karen Aram > To: Peace-discuss List > Sent: Sun, Dec 1, 2019 11:55 am > Subject: Re: REVEALED: New Details on The Killing of JFK & His Lover Mary Meyer > > >> On Dec 1, 2019, at 09:35, Redacted Tonight > wrote: >> >> Please add LeeRedacted at Outlook.com to your contact list to help us avoid spam filters. >> (You can also view this email in your browser. ) >> >> >> Hey Karen >> >> Even though there is not a new Redacted Tonight this week, THERE IS a gripping new episode of Redacted: VIP about the assassination of JFK and his lover Mary Meyer - within the span of one year. Even if you don't normally watch my interview show, trust me - you'll want to see this one! You'll learn how the CIA hit took place, how carefully it was orchestrated, and why the killers did it in broad daylight. >> >> Click here to watch. ? >> >> Secondly, there's a new web-exclusive episode of Moment of Clarity in which I reveal what Human Rights Watch won't dare tell you. Click here to watch Moment of Clarity. >> >> Keep fighting, >> Lee >> >> P.S. - My new book is now available for pre-order and there's a UK/ Europe site as well! Click for details . It includes an intro from Jimmy Dore and a foreword by Chris Hedges. >> >> Click To Watch Redacted Tonight: VIP >> >> All rights reserved. >> Click to subscribe to Redacted Tonight youtube page . >> Click to unsubscribe from this mailing list. >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Mon Dec 2 15:00:20 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 09:00:20 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Trump in Afghanistan In-Reply-To: <398341762.1856048.1575293297020@mail.yahoo.com> References: <043D5F41-5B10-41B2-BBB7-2B5F794A5545@newsfromneptune.com> <9A5EBB06-CD12-4425-8647-7BB686CA84F5@newsfromneptune.com> <0260A127-1D96-47F4-A950-8CB4514A5C8B@newsfromneptune.com> <2891E1FE-FDEB-4772-8B9E-7EA7A56CC12F@newsfromneptune.com> <40C41B4F-AAB5-4B10-A7E0-A75D184B762D@newsfromneptune.com> <398341762.1856048.1575293297020@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7608BB05-531F-4CD5-96A6-AF637CD95EF0@newsfromneptune.com> I don?t see many parallels between Eliot?s tragedy 'Murder in the Cathedral? and the Democrats? farce, 'Impeachment in Washington,? but his paradox is worth considering: ?The last temptation is the greatest treason: to do the right deed for the wrong reason.? That?s what the consciously distracting demand for impeachment is doing. Like all modern presidents, Trump certainly deserves impeachment - and more, as Chomsky says - for his high crimes (i.e., crimes in office), especially war crimes. But not for failing to promote more aggressively the traditional US foreign policy of war and war provocations against Russia and China. And that?s the reason the political establishment want to remove him - i.e., the Democrat party, the 'intelligence community? [CIA/FBI/NSA], State & 'Defense' departments, MSM etc. - acting in the interests of the 1%. (See .) Impeachment is being promoted in support of US war-making. We should oppose the latter by exposing the former (among other things). ?CGE On Dec 2, 2019, at 7:28 AM, Mildred O'brien wrote: > > > Carl: Do you posit analogy between an impeached Trump with Becket? > > mo'b > > > -----Original Message----- > From: C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss > To: Robert Naiman > Cc: John W. ; Peace-discuss > Sent: Sun, Dec 1, 2019 7:40 am > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Trump in Afghanistan > > Surely a president in office is responsible for any war carried on by his/her administration. > > But Trump is condemned by the US political establishment for not being as criminal as Obama. > > > > On Dec 1, 2019, at 6:59 AM, Robert Naiman wrote: > > > > The strongest case for impeaching Trump for unconstitutional war is with respect to unconstitutional U.S. participation in the Saudi war in Yemen, because Trump continued the war after Congress voted against it. That is unique. > > > > On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 7:01 AM C. G. Estabrook wrote: > > Impeach Trump not for war-making but for *not* making war where Obama did (Afghanistan, Ukraine, etc.)? > > > > > "The last temptation is the greatest treason: > > To do the right deed for the wrong reason." > > > > > > > On Nov 29, 2019, at 5:46 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > > > > Carl is right that Trump wants to end the war in Afghanistan. That is a good thing. U.S. anti-war activists should support ending the war in Afghanistan, regardless of what they think of Trump otherwise. > > > > > > "Democrats" didn't democratically decide that impeaching Trump would be about the temporary suspension of lethal military aid to Ukraine. Nancy Pelosi decided that, all by her little lonesome. If we don't want to be at junctures like this in the future, we need to boot Nancy Pelosi from the Speaker's chair or curb her dictatorial power. > > > > > > Here's a proposal. Let's set a public deadline for any Member of the House who is not named Tulsi Gabbard to introduce articles of impeachment on Trump for unconstitutional war. When the deadline passes, let's ask Tulsi to do it. When the "well-intentioned but frightened" "anti-war" groups in DC that are afraid to cross Dem leadership concern-troll us that Tulsi is "the wrong messenger," we say to them: you knew what the deadline was. We publicly announced it. If you couldn't get any of the other 434 Members of the House to do this, you only have yourselves to blame. > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 6:40 AM C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > You?ve bought the entire subtle establishment political strategy, designed to maintain US killing around the world: ?ORANGE MAN BAD!? > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 28, 2019, at 8:05 PM, John W. wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 7:45 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: > > > > > > > > [FT] Trump says talks with Taliban have resumed > > > > US president Donald Trump said peace talks with the Taliban had resumed > > > > as he made an unannounced visit to Afghanistan on Thanksgiving, > > > > appearing at a US air force base alongside Afghan president Ashraf Ghani. > > > > > > > > Following a meeting with Mr Ghani, Mr Trump told reporters that the Taliban > > > > ?wants to make a deal? and that US officials were ?meeting with them?. > > > > > > > > Yes, our bold, intrepid Commander in Chief was his usual articulate self today. "The Taliban want to make a deal. But I'm not sure I want to make a deal. It may not be a good deal. On the other hand, it could be a good deal. It'll all depends on what kind of deal they want to make. We'll have to see what happens." The troops, discerning what a bold, intrepid Commander in Chief now leads them so fearlessly, were heard to applaud wildly and thankfully. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 28, 2019, at 7:41 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote: > > > > > > > > > > WSJ: "Trump Says Taliban Peace Talks to Resume During Surprise Afghanistan Visit? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the early 1960's, some US military would say of Kennedy's attack on South Vietnam, "It's a dirty little war - but it's the only war we've got.? > > > > > > > > > > Today, thanks most recently to Obama - the first US president to be at war throughout two presidential terms - they needn't say that about Afghanistan: he's left seven others to choose from, having attacked Iraq, Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well. > > > > > > > > > > But the permanent government (notably Democrat ?liberals?) insist on removing Trump for fear he'll end the killing in Afghanistan and elsewhere? > > > > > > > > > > ?CGE > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Peace mailing list > > > > Peace at lists.chambana.net > > > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Peace-discuss mailing list > > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Peace-discuss mailing list > > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From carl at newsfromneptune.com Mon Dec 2 16:54:58 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 10:54:58 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Democrats' strategy to sideline dissent from US war-making & war-provocations Message-ID: ...As evidence, the central finding of the impeachment inquiry to date is that Ukraine is woefully undersupplied with the weapons needed to fight ?Russian aggression.? ?We? learned that despite Pentagon rumblings at the time, the Obama administration did its patriotic duty by selling ?non-lethal? military equipment to self-described fascists in Ukraine. Mr. Trump?s crime was that his ham-fisted shakedown effort stood between the Ukrainians and American ?freedom missiles.? To be clear, Donald Trump has a lot to answer for. He appointed neocon warmonger John Bolton, meaning that he has his name on the U.S. backed coup in Bolivia, the attempted coup in Venezuela and the genocide in Yemen that he inherited from Barack Obama. But if these are a problem? and they are, so is the Obama / (Hillary) Clinton coup in Ukraine. If Mr. Trump had outright stopped the delivery of U.S. weapons to Ukraine, he would have made the world a better place. ...as the alliance between American neocons and Ukrainian Nazis illustrates, the political optics are managed through the New York Times and the Washington Post, not on the ground in resource-rich countries. ...as passionately as the American left wants to elevate Mike Pence to the office of President, Senators, Republican and otherwise, understand the political value of partisan rancor... If one looks at the U.S. Constitution as the basis for both this legitimacy and social neutrality, it is a document written by oligarchs to liberate themselves from the British proscription against owning slaves. ?Freedom to? was the freedom to own slaves, subjugate women and exploit ?free? labor. Rich, white, men gave themselves the right to vote... A current example of the relation of law to power can be found through the legalization of bribery within the political class. Thomas Ferguson has spent a career demonstrating the relationship between campaign contributions and legislative outcomes. Adam Schiff, Donald Trump?s primary antagonist in Russiagate, and now impeachment, is wholly owned by the defense industry. His interest in selling American weapons to Ukraine ties directly to campaign contributions he receives from the corporations that manufacture these weapons. If fealty to the law were applied, all of the senior members of the George W. Bush administration plus those in oversight positions in Congress would be in prison for the U.S. War of Aggression against Iraq and illegal torture. This would include House Speaker Nancy Pelosi who, as a senior member of the House Intelligence Committee, was told about the CIA?s illegal torture program and signed off on it. The history of the rich using the law as a lever of social control renders the liberal theory of it implausible, no matter how passionately it is argued for? ...I can?t imagine that Barack Obama saying that he is going to take Bernie Sanders out has had an effect other than to make people want to start lighting shit on fire. I?m not suggesting that people do this. But that is the feeling. The establishment Democrats are determined to have it their way. Screw democracy, screw the will of the people, screw the wellbeing of the people, screw acting on the people?s behalf, they?re going to elect themselves a billionaire. And, they?d be fine with a right-wing rebellion? rich people love fascism. We?re on our own. Work for Bernie. Vote for Bernie. Thanks for the political clarification Obama! ### ### From carl at newsfromneptune.com Tue Dec 3 03:52:02 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 21:52:02 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Flyer to distributed at Dec.7 demo Message-ID: <1954BEB3-5F81-4468-B5CF-95BF8DFF9154@newsfromneptune.com> [Flyer to distributed at the regular monthly anti-war demo, Saturday, Dec. 7, 2-4pm at the Susan B. Anthony Memorial, at the intersection of Main and Neil Streets in Champaign.] ============================================== ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the US political establishment?s way of distracting you from America?s war-making around the world The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how terrible U.S. government war-making is. And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump administration?s policy seems little different in fact from that of the Obama administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to end the Obama-Clinton wars. President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush administration (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight (attacking Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well) and became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two terms. Not even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln (Civil War) did that. As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really good at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.? Even more dangerously, he continued America?s longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of Eurasia, for fear that that would retard the U.S. elite?s economic exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war-provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it - in part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic development of Russia and China. Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million people in wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) designed to destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained as the only major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 million people in defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a half million people.) That is why international polls show that the U.S. is the most feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The Trump administration is not the problem: U.S. war-making is. The rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.? With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president and government to close all U.S. military bases on foreign soil, bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and provide social supports - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made poorer by generations of our government?s wars. ~~~ In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in Congress-- ~ Senator Dick Durbin: ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: ~ Representative Rodney Davis: ~~~ The ?Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort? is on Facebook at The TV program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is on Urbana Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube) ### -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmedina67 at gmail.com Tue Dec 3 05:40:18 2019 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (Karen Medina) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 23:40:18 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Robert_Reich=E2=80=99s_letter_to_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYTW92ZU9u4oCZIENPUlJFQ1RFRA==?= In-Reply-To: <9D278FD4-13C7-456C-931D-B2690F396528@newsfromneptune.com> References: <5de3ed0b.1c69fb81.fd7fd.88d8@mx.google.com> <9D278FD4-13C7-456C-931D-B2690F396528@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: > By ?corruption is blatant,? you mean Trump?s phone call to Zelensky? Extortion for personal gain is corrupt, yes, but I was thinking more along the lines of having his personal lawyer do negotiations on behalf of the United States. Even Al Capone was not tried for his real crimes. I would prefer that people cared about the issues that Trump is intentionally ignoring: climate change, the Nuclear Posture Review, deregulation, health care, war and peace; while he is doling out lavish gifts to the wealth and the corporate sector?namely the tax bill and massive deregulation (including by having people like Scott Pruitt be the head of the EPA, and then when he stepped down, hiring his underling Andrew Wheeler to be indefinite acting administrator -- as just one example). FWIW, Wheeler's main goal is to reduce government regulations on industries that generate greenhouse gases. Trump's other skill is pretending to be opposed to abortion and for gun rights and against immigrants, those are all lessons from past presidential candidates. Basically, Trump is wasting our country's time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Tue Dec 3 11:57:49 2019 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 03:57:49 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer to distributed at Dec.7 demo In-Reply-To: <1954BEB3-5F81-4468-B5CF-95BF8DFF9154@newsfromneptune.com> References: <1954BEB3-5F81-4468-B5CF-95BF8DFF9154@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: Carl No mention of Bolivia and the torture and murder of the many indigenous supporters of Evo Morales, the elected President who had to flee to Mexico due to a US supported coup? No mention of the attempted over throw of the elected leader of Venezuela? No mention of the sanctions, which are war, being used against Iran? The drone wars of the Obama Administration have been continued and increased by the Trump Administration, not discontinued. The above is just a few of the crimes being committed by the Trump Administration along with the continuation of the Obama Administration wars. Granted Trump isn?t as interested in continuing the eight wars of the Obama Administration and it is the (Deep/ Perpetual State) that is responsible, but it is our ?system? of capitalism that needs to be addressed, not the puppet in the White House, and Trump is not an innocent as you imply, he has blood on his hands. If the only thing AWARE is concerned with is defending Trump, granted the impeachment is just a political tool to oust him from power, further denigrate Russia, and distract the American people, then I certainly won?t be participating in a demonstration more concerned with supporting Trump than calling attention to US wars of hegemony. > On Dec 2, 2019, at 19:52, C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: > > [Flyer to distributed at the regular monthly anti-war demo, Saturday, Dec. 7, 2-4pm at the Susan B. Anthony Memorial, at the intersection of Main and Neil Streets in Champaign.] > ============================================== > ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the US political establishment?s way of distracting you from America?s war-making around the world > > The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how terrible U.S. government war-making is. > > And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump administration?s policy seems little different in fact from that of the Obama administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to end the Obama-Clinton wars. > > President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush administration (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight (attacking Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well) and became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two terms. Not even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln (Civil War) did that. > > As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really good at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.? > > Even more dangerously, he continued America?s longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of Eurasia, for fear that that would retard the U.S. elite?s economic exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war-provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. > > Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it - in part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic development of Russia and China. > > Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million people in wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) designed to destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained as the only major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 million people in defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a half million people.) > > That is why international polls show that the U.S. is the most feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The Trump administration is not the problem: U.S. war-making is. The rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.? > > With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president and government to close all U.S. military bases on foreign soil, bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and provide social supports - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made poorer by generations of our government?s wars. > ~~~ > In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in Congress-- > ~ Senator Dick Durbin: > > ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: > ~ Representative Rodney Davis: > ~~~ > The ?Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort? is on Facebook at > The TV program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is on Urbana Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube) > ### > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Tue Dec 3 14:24:04 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 08:24:04 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer to distributed at Dec.7 demo In-Reply-To: References: <1954BEB3-5F81-4468-B5CF-95BF8DFF9154@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: <83E3EB8A-847D-4169-9F35-AFBCABA1F63C@newsfromneptune.com> Of course the flyer is not ?defending Trump? (nor implying him ?innocent?!) but pointing out that the political establishment (the Democrat party, the ?intelligence community? [CIA/FBI/NSA], the NYT & WaPo et al.) is deflecting criticism of the US government?s criminal war policy (which of course includes Venezuela and Bolivia, which the flyer should mention) into a demand to replace Trump. ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? Is a disingenuous alternative to ?BRING ALL US TROOPS HOME!" And the political establishment is doing that in *defense* of US war-making, as 'Russiagate' shows. Trump was the first major party candidate since George McGovern to criticize US war policy: the political establishment are afraid he may act on those criticisms (e.g., withdraw from Afghanistan, Syria, and elsewhere). ?CGE > On Dec 3, 2019, at 5:57 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > Carl > > No mention of Bolivia and the torture and murder of the many indigenous supporters of Evo Morales, the elected President who had to flee to Mexico due to a US supported coup? > > No mention of the attempted over throw of the elected leader of Venezuela? > > No mention of the sanctions, which are war, being used against Iran? > > The drone wars of the Obama Administration have been continued and increased by the Trump Administration, not discontinued. > > The above is just a few of the crimes being committed by the Trump Administration along with the continuation of the Obama Administration wars. Granted Trump isn?t as interested in continuing the eight wars of the Obama Administration and it is the (Deep/ Perpetual State) that is responsible, but it is our ?system? of capitalism that needs to be addressed, not the puppet in the White House, and Trump is not an innocent as you imply, he has blood on his hands. > > If the only thing AWARE is concerned with is defending Trump, granted the impeachment is just a political tool to oust him from power, further denigrate Russia, and distract the American people, then I certainly won?t be participating in a demonstration more concerned with supporting Trump than calling attention to US wars of hegemony. > > > > > > > >> On Dec 2, 2019, at 19:52, C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: >> >> [Flyer to distributed at the regular monthly anti-war demo, Saturday, Dec. 7, 2-4pm at the Susan B. Anthony Memorial, at the intersection of Main and Neil Streets in Champaign.] >> ============================================== >> ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the US political establishment?s way of distracting you from America?s war-making around the world >> >> The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how terrible U.S. government war-making is. >> >> And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump administration?s policy seems little different in fact from that of the Obama administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to end the Obama-Clinton wars. >> >> President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush administration (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight (attacking Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well) and became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two terms. Not even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln (Civil War) did that. >> >> As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really good at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.? >> >> Even more dangerously, he continued America?s longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of Eurasia, for fear that that would retard the U.S. elite?s economic exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war-provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. >> >> Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it - in part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic development of Russia and China. >> >> Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million people in wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) designed to destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained as the only major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 million people in defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a half million people.) >> >> That is why international polls show that the U.S. is the most feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The Trump administration is not the problem: U.S. war-making is. The rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.? >> >> With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president and government to close all U.S. military bases on foreign soil, bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and provide social supports - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made poorer by generations of our government?s wars. >> ~~~ >> In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in Congress-- >> ~ Senator Dick Durbin: >> ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: >> ~ Representative Rodney Davis: >> ~~~ >> The ?Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort? is on Facebook at >> The TV program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is on Urbana Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube) >> ### >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From carl at newsfromneptune.com Tue Dec 3 15:30:02 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 09:30:02 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Robert_Reich=E2=80=99s_letter_to_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYTW92ZU9u4oCZIENPUlJFQ1RFRA==?= In-Reply-To: References: <5de3ed0b.1c69fb81.fd7fd.88d8@mx.google.com> <9D278FD4-13C7-456C-931D-B2690F396528@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: A president of the US should surely try to correct it when a vice president and his son extort large amounts of money from a foreign government. And using a private lawyer to make arrangements with a foreign government is a typical example of a ?back channel? - hardly unusual. But I agree with you on what people should care about. The evidence that Trump is pretending to be opposed to abortion is that he (and many others) make no move to support pregnant women with health care, child care, housing, or education - the lack of which lead people to end their unborn children?s lives. (And that?s encouraged by the government: as Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said, "Frankly I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don?t want to have too many of.?) ?CGE > On Dec 2, 2019, at 11:40 PM, Karen Medina via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > By ?corruption is blatant,? you mean Trump?s phone call to Zelensky? > Extortion for personal gain is corrupt, yes, but I was thinking more along the lines of having his personal lawyer do negotiations on behalf of the United States. > > Even Al Capone was not tried for his real crimes. > > I would prefer that people cared about the issues that Trump is intentionally ignoring: climate change, the Nuclear Posture Review, deregulation, health care, war and peace; while he is doling out lavish gifts to the wealth and the corporate sector?namely the tax bill and massive deregulation (including by having people like Scott Pruitt be the head of the EPA, and then when he stepped down, hiring his underling Andrew Wheeler to be indefinite acting administrator -- as just one example). FWIW, Wheeler's main goal is to reduce government regulations on industries that generate greenhouse gases. > > Trump's other skill is pretending to be opposed to abortion and for gun rights and against immigrants, those are all lessons from past presidential candidates. > > Basically, Trump is wasting our country's time. > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From carl at newsfromneptune.com Tue Dec 3 16:30:36 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 10:30:36 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Flyer for Dec. 7 anti-war demo REVISED Message-ID: [Incorporates several suggestions from members & friends of AWARE] ===================================================================================================== ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the U.S. political establishment?s way of distracting you from America?s war-making around the world The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how terrible U.S. government war-making is - most recently in Venezuela and Bolivia. And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump administration?s policy seems little different from that of the Obama administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to end the Obama-Clinton wars. President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush administration (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight (attacking Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well) and became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two terms. Not even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln (Civil War) did that. As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really good at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.? While ?covering sin with smooth names,? Obama continued America?s longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of Eurasia, for fear that it would interfere with the U.S. elite?s economic exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it - in part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic development of Russia and China. Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million people in wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) designed to destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained as the only major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 million people in defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a half million people.) That is why today international polls show that the U.S. is the most feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.? With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president and government (a) to close the thousand U.S. military bases on foreign soil (most encircling Russia and China), (b) to bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and (c) to provide social supports - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made poorer by generations of our government?s wars. ~~~ In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in Congress-- ~ Senator Dick Durbin: ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: ~ Representative Rodney Davis: ~~~ The ?Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort? is on Facebook at The TV program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is on Urbana Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube) ### -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Tue Dec 3 16:37:31 2019 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 08:37:31 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for Dec. 7 anti-war demo REVISED In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Much better. Though I do have a question given the flyer is supposed to reflect the opinions of most AWARE folks, or those who intend to be at the demo. Saturday: Do most members of AWARE support UBI? > On Dec 3, 2019, at 08:30, C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: > > [Incorporates several suggestions from members & friends of AWARE] > > ===================================================================================================== > ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the U.S. political establishment?s way of distracting you from America?s war-making around the world > > The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how terrible U.S. government war-making is - most recently in Venezuela and Bolivia. > > And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump administration?s policy seems little different from that of the Obama administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to end the Obama-Clinton wars. > > President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush administration (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight (attacking Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well) and became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two terms. Not even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln (Civil War) did that. > > As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really good at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.? > > While ?covering sin with smooth names,? Obama continued America?s longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of Eurasia, for fear that it would interfere with the U.S. elite?s economic exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. > > Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it - in part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic development of Russia and China. > > Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million people in wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) designed to destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained as the only major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 million people in defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a half million people.) > > That is why today international polls show that the U.S. is the most feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.? > > With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president and government > (a) to close the thousand U.S. military bases on foreign soil (most encircling Russia and China), > (b) to bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and > (c) to provide social supports - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made poorer by generations of our government?s wars. > ~~~ > > In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in Congress-- > ~ Senator Dick Durbin: > > ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: > > ~ Representative Rodney Davis: > > ~~~ > > The ?Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort? is on Facebook at > > The TV program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is on > Urbana Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube) > > ### > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Tue Dec 3 17:04:38 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 11:04:38 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for Dec. 7 anti-war demo REVISED In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: AWARE has been for 20 years an anarchist rather than a liberal organization. Other ?members and friends? might want to produce a flyer on UBI. BTW on the question of anarchist organization, people might want to read the late Ursula K. Le Guin?s "The Dispossessed: An Ambiguous Utopia? (1974) , a political novel that seemed to me to rank with ?The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists? (1914, 1955) . ?CGE \ > On Dec 3, 2019, at 10:37 AM, Karen Aram wrote: > > Much better. > > Though I do have a question given the flyer is supposed to reflect the opinions of most AWARE folks, or those who intend to be at the demo. Saturday: Do most members of AWARE support UBI? > > >> On Dec 3, 2019, at 08:30, C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: >> >> [Incorporates several suggestions from members & friends of AWARE] >> >> ===================================================================================================== >> ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the U.S. political establishment?s way of distracting you from America?s war-making around the world >> >> The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how terrible U.S. government war-making is - most recently in Venezuela and Bolivia. >> >> And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump administration?s policy seems little different from that of the Obama administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to end the Obama-Clinton wars. >> >> President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush administration (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight (attacking Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well) and became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two terms. Not even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln (Civil War) did that. >> >> As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really good at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.? >> >> While ?covering sin with smooth names,? Obama continued America?s longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of Eurasia, for fear that it would interfere with the U.S. elite?s economic exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. >> >> Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it - in part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic development of Russia and China. >> >> Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million people in wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) designed to destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained as the only major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 million people in defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a half million people.) >> >> That is why today international polls show that the U.S. is the most feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.? >> >> With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president and government >> (a) to close the thousand U.S. military bases on foreign soil (most encircling Russia and China), >> (b) to bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and >> (c) to provide social supports - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made poorer by generations of our government?s wars. >> ~~~ >> >> In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in Congress-- >> ~ Senator Dick Durbin: >> ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: >> ~ Representative Rodney Davis: >> ~~~ >> >> The ?Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort? is on Facebook at >> >> The TV program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is on >> Urbana Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube) >> >> ### >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > From brussel at illinois.edu Tue Dec 3 17:41:58 2019 From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 17:41:58 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for Dec. 7 anti-war demo REVISED In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <736338A8-DAE5-4CD8-9AC2-44BDFA81F264@illinois.edu> The U.S. is now fomenting, under Trump, proxy and economic wars, not direct military conflicts with U.S. forces (which would alarm the public with casualties and U.S. vulnerabilities). Quite clever? But terriby destructive and lethal nonetheless, In Syria, Ukraine, Venezuela, Yemen, Bolivia, Nicaragua, Cuba, in Africa, Palestine, etc.. Trump is no bystander. He is the lancepoint of American foreign policy, and should be beholden for these manifold policies, as well as on other critical policies such as nuclear weapons issues, military-national security budgets, domestic issues?, that he embodies. One can get the impression that Carl serves as an apologist for Trump by slyly deflecting criticisms from him to past U.S. transgressions ?. Especially admirable is the next to last entry (With other peace groups?) of your pamphlet. UBI? What? On Dec 3, 2019, at 10:37 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: Much better. Though I do have a question given the flyer is supposed to reflect the opinions of most AWARE folks, or those who intend to be at the demo. Saturday: Do most members of AWARE support UBI? On Dec 3, 2019, at 08:30, C. G. Estabrook via Peace > wrote: [Incorporates several suggestions from members & friends of AWARE] ===================================================================================================== ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the U.S. political establishment?s way of distracting you from America?s war-making around the world The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how terrible U.S. government war-making is - most recently in Venezuela and Bolivia. And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump administration?s policy seems little different from that of the Obama administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to end the Obama-Clinton wars. President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush administration (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight (attacking Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well) and became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two terms. Not even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln (Civil War) did that. As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really good at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.? While ?covering sin with smooth names,? Obama continued America?s longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of Eurasia, for fear that it would interfere with the U.S. elite?s economic exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it - in part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic development of Russia and China. Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million people in wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) designed to destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained as the only major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 million people in defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a half million people.) That is why today international polls show that the U.S. is the most feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.? With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president and government (a) to close the thousand U.S. military bases on foreign soil (most encircling Russia and China), (b) to bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and (c) to provide social supports - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made poorer by generations of our government?s wars. ~~~ In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in Congress-- ~ Senator Dick Durbin: ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: ~ Representative Rodney Davis: ~~~ The ?Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort? is on Facebook at The TV program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is on Urbana Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube) ### _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Tue Dec 3 23:25:51 2019 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 15:25:51 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for Dec. 7 anti-war demo REVISED In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Carl Anarchist? Are you kidding. The majority of people involved in AWARE over the past eight years and I believe those who originally initiated it, are liberal Democrats. A couple of us are socialists but only 3, 4 at most. An independent or two, but almost always supporting Democrats. You may consider yourself anarchist, but you speak for yourself. > On Dec 3, 2019, at 09:04, C. G. Estabrook wrote: > > AWARE has been for 20 years an anarchist rather than a liberal organization. Other ?members and friends? might want to produce a flyer on UBI. > > BTW on the question of anarchist organization, people might want to read the late Ursula K. Le Guin?s "The Dispossessed: An Ambiguous Utopia? (1974) , a political novel that seemed to me to rank with ?The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists? (1914, 1955) . ?CGE > > \ >> On Dec 3, 2019, at 10:37 AM, Karen Aram wrote: >> >> Much better. >> >> Though I do have a question given the flyer is supposed to reflect the opinions of most AWARE folks, or those who intend to be at the demo. Saturday: Do most members of AWARE support UBI? >> >> >>> On Dec 3, 2019, at 08:30, C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: >>> >>> [Incorporates several suggestions from members & friends of AWARE] >>> >>> ===================================================================================================== >>> ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the U.S. political establishment?s way of distracting you from America?s war-making around the world >>> >>> The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how terrible U.S. government war-making is - most recently in Venezuela and Bolivia. >>> >>> And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump administration?s policy seems little different from that of the Obama administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to end the Obama-Clinton wars. >>> >>> President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush administration (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight (attacking Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well) and became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two terms. Not even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln (Civil War) did that. >>> >>> As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really good at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.? >>> >>> While ?covering sin with smooth names,? Obama continued America?s longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of Eurasia, for fear that it would interfere with the U.S. elite?s economic exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. >>> >>> Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it - in part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic development of Russia and China. >>> >>> Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million people in wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) designed to destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained as the only major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 million people in defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a half million people.) >>> >>> That is why today international polls show that the U.S. is the most feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.? >>> >>> With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president and government >>> (a) to close the thousand U.S. military bases on foreign soil (most encircling Russia and China), >>> (b) to bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and >>> (c) to provide social supports - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made poorer by generations of our government?s wars. >>> ~~~ >>> >>> In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in Congress-- >>> ~ Senator Dick Durbin: >>> ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: >>> ~ Representative Rodney Davis: >>> ~~~ >>> >>> The ?Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort? is on Facebook at >>> >>> The TV program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is on >>> Urbana Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube) >>> >>> ### >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace mailing list >>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >> > From carl at newsfromneptune.com Tue Dec 3 23:36:40 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 17:36:40 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for Dec. 7 anti-war demo REVISED In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34A19CD1-23D1-4740-B25A-135E8684883F@newsfromneptune.com> I was speaking of how the group ran - by consensus, not majority vote. > On Dec 3, 2019, at 5:25 PM, Karen Aram wrote: > > Carl > > Anarchist? Are you kidding. > > The majority of people involved in AWARE over the past eight years and I believe those who originally initiated it, are liberal Democrats. A couple of us are socialists but only 3, 4 at most. An independent or two, but almost always supporting Democrats. > > You may consider yourself anarchist, but you speak for yourself. > > > >> On Dec 3, 2019, at 09:04, C. G. Estabrook wrote: >> >> AWARE has been for 20 years an anarchist rather than a liberal organization. Other ?members and friends? might want to produce a flyer on UBI. >> >> BTW on the question of anarchist organization, people might want to read the late Ursula K. Le Guin?s "The Dispossessed: An Ambiguous Utopia? (1974) , a political novel that seemed to me to rank with ?The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists? (1914, 1955) . ?CGE >> >> \ >>> On Dec 3, 2019, at 10:37 AM, Karen Aram wrote: >>> >>> Much better. >>> >>> Though I do have a question given the flyer is supposed to reflect the opinions of most AWARE folks, or those who intend to be at the demo. Saturday: Do most members of AWARE support UBI? >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 3, 2019, at 08:30, C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: >>>> >>>> [Incorporates several suggestions from members & friends of AWARE] >>>> >>>> ===================================================================================================== >>>> ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the U.S. political establishment?s way of distracting you from America?s war-making around the world >>>> >>>> The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how terrible U.S. government war-making is - most recently in Venezuela and Bolivia. >>>> >>>> And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump administration?s policy seems little different from that of the Obama administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to end the Obama-Clinton wars. >>>> >>>> President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush administration (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight (attacking Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well) and became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two terms. Not even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln (Civil War) did that. >>>> >>>> As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really good at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.? >>>> >>>> While ?covering sin with smooth names,? Obama continued America?s longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of Eurasia, for fear that it would interfere with the U.S. elite?s economic exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. >>>> >>>> Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it - in part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic development of Russia and China. >>>> >>>> Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million people in wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) designed to destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained as the only major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 million people in defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a half million people.) >>>> >>>> That is why today international polls show that the U.S. is the most feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.? >>>> >>>> With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president and government >>>> (a) to close the thousand U.S. military bases on foreign soil (most encircling Russia and China), >>>> (b) to bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and >>>> (c) to provide social supports - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made poorer by generations of our government?s wars. >>>> ~~~ >>>> >>>> In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in Congress-- >>>> ~ Senator Dick Durbin: >>>> ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: >>>> ~ Representative Rodney Davis: >>>> ~~~ >>>> >>>> The ?Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort? is on Facebook at >>>> >>>> The TV program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is on >>>> Urbana Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube) >>>> >>>> ### >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace mailing list >>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >>> >> > From carl at newsfromneptune.com Wed Dec 4 01:46:13 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 19:46:13 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for Dec. 7 anti-war demo REVISED In-Reply-To: <736338A8-DAE5-4CD8-9AC2-44BDFA81F264@illinois.edu> References: <736338A8-DAE5-4CD8-9AC2-44BDFA81F264@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <41396D4D-8236-427C-964C-13F3B5E4F20F@newsfromneptune.com> Trump must be criticized in the context of an accurate account of what he and other presidents have done. The political establishment is purposely avoiding that account, in order to stymie a popular understanding of the crimes of US foreign policy, The?ve received immense help from the NYT, WaPo, CNN, MSNBC, PBS et al. Far too many soi-disant liberals have been misled by the political establishment?s account. Their politics have been said accurately to reduce to ?ORANGE MAN BAD!" > On Dec 3, 2019, at 11:41 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace wrote: > > The U.S. is now fomenting, under Trump, proxy and economic wars, not direct military conflicts with U.S. forces (which would alarm the public with casualties and U.S. vulnerabilities). Quite clever? But terriby destructive and lethal nonetheless, In Syria, Ukraine, Venezuela, Yemen, Bolivia, Nicaragua, Cuba, in Africa, Palestine, etc.. Trump is no bystander. He is the lancepoint of American foreign policy, and should be beholden for these manifold policies, as well as on other critical policies such as nuclear weapons issues, military-national security budgets, domestic issues?, that he embodies. > > One can get the impression that Carl serves as an apologist for Trump by slyly deflecting criticisms from him to past U.S. transgressions ?. > > Especially admirable is the next to last entry (With other peace groups?) of your pamphlet. > > UBI? What? > > > >> On Dec 3, 2019, at 10:37 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> Much better. >> >> Though I do have a question given the flyer is supposed to reflect the opinions of most AWARE folks, or those who intend to be at the demo. Saturday: Do most members of AWARE support UBI? >> >> >>> On Dec 3, 2019, at 08:30, C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: >>> >>> [Incorporates several suggestions from members & friends of AWARE] >>> >>> ===================================================================================================== >>> ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the U.S. political establishment?s way of distracting you from America?s war-making around the world >>> >>> The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how terrible U.S. government war-making is - most recently in Venezuela and Bolivia. >>> >>> And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump administration?s policy seems little different from that of the Obama administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to end the Obama-Clinton wars. >>> >>> President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush administration (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight (attacking Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well) and became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two terms. Not even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln (Civil War) did that. >>> >>> As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really good at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.? >>> >>> While ?covering sin with smooth names,? Obama continued America?s longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of Eurasia, for fear that it would interfere with the U.S. elite?s economic exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. >>> >>> Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it - in part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic development of Russia and China. >>> >>> Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million people in wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) designed to destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained as the only major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 million people in defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a half million people.) >>> >>> That is why today international polls show that the U.S. is the most feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.? >>> >>> With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president and government >>> (a) to close the thousand U.S. military bases on foreign soil (most encircling Russia and China), >>> (b) to bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and >>> (c) to provide social supports - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made poorer by generations of our government?s wars. >>> ~~~ >>> >>> In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in Congress-- >>> ~ Senator Dick Durbin: >>> ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: >>> ~ Representative Rodney Davis: >>> ~~~ >>> >>> The ?Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort? is on Facebook at >>> >>> The TV program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is on >>> Urbana Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube) >>> >>> ### >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace mailing list >>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace From james.manrique at gmail.com Wed Dec 4 01:57:58 2019 From: james.manrique at gmail.com (James M) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 19:57:58 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for Dec. 7 anti-war demo REVISED In-Reply-To: <41396D4D-8236-427C-964C-13F3B5E4F20F@newsfromneptune.com> References: <736338A8-DAE5-4CD8-9AC2-44BDFA81F264@illinois.edu> <41396D4D-8236-427C-964C-13F3B5E4F20F@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: I support anything that spurs discussion. Sometimes more divisive material can generate discussions like this. It gives a good opportunity for folks to offer different opinions & point of views. For my vote, I'm ok with the flyer. On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 7:47 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace < peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > Trump must be criticized in the context of an accurate account of what he > and other presidents have done. > > The political establishment is purposely avoiding that account, in order > to stymie a popular understanding of the crimes of US foreign policy, > > The?ve received immense help from the NYT, WaPo, CNN, MSNBC, PBS et al. > > Far too many soi-disant liberals have been misled by the political > establishment?s account. > > Their politics have been said accurately to reduce to ?ORANGE MAN BAD!" > > > > On Dec 3, 2019, at 11:41 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace < > peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > > > The U.S. is now fomenting, under Trump, proxy and economic wars, not > direct military conflicts with U.S. forces (which would alarm the public > with casualties and U.S. vulnerabilities). Quite clever? But terriby > destructive and lethal nonetheless, In Syria, Ukraine, Venezuela, Yemen, > Bolivia, Nicaragua, Cuba, in Africa, Palestine, etc.. Trump is no > bystander. He is the lancepoint of American foreign policy, and should be > beholden for these manifold policies, as well as on other critical policies > such as nuclear weapons issues, military-national security budgets, > domestic issues?, that he embodies. > > > > One can get the impression that Carl serves as an apologist for Trump by > slyly deflecting criticisms from him to past U.S. transgressions ?. > > > > Especially admirable is the next to last entry (With other peace > groups?) of your pamphlet. > > > > UBI? What? > > > > > > > >> On Dec 3, 2019, at 10:37 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > >> > >> Much better. > >> > >> Though I do have a question given the flyer is supposed to reflect the > opinions of most AWARE folks, or those who intend to be at the demo. > Saturday: Do most members of AWARE support UBI? > >> > >> > >>> On Dec 3, 2019, at 08:30, C. G. Estabrook via Peace < > peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > >>> > >>> [Incorporates several suggestions from members & friends of AWARE] > >>> > >>> > ===================================================================================================== > >>> ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the U.S. political establishment?s way of > distracting you from America?s war-making around the world > >>> > >>> The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how > terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how > terrible U.S. government war-making is - most recently in Venezuela and > Bolivia. > >>> > >>> And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump > administration?s policy seems little different from that of the Obama > administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to > end the Obama-Clinton wars. > >>> > >>> President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush > administration (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight > (attacking Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as > well) and became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two > terms. Not even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln > (Civil War) did that. > >>> > >>> As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of > American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really > good at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of > mine.? > >>> > >>> While ?covering sin with smooth names,? Obama continued America?s > longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of > Eurasia, for fear that it would interfere with the U.S. elite?s economic > exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war provocations > against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. > >>> > >>> Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it > - in part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to > maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic > development of Russia and China. > >>> > >>> Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million > people in wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) > designed to destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained > as the only major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 > million people in defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a > half million people.) > >>> > >>> That is why today international polls show that the U.S. is the most > feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The > rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin > Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the > world today.? > >>> > >>> With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president > and government > >>> (a) to close the thousand U.S. military bases on foreign soil (most > encircling Russia and China), > >>> (b) to bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and > >>> (c) to provide social supports - including free medical care, > education, and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made > poorer by generations of our government?s wars. > >>> ~~~ > >>> > >>> In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in > Congress-- > >>> ~ Senator Dick Durbin: > >>> ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: < > https://www.duckworth.senate.gov/content/contact-senator> > >>> ~ Representative Rodney Davis: > > >>> ~~~ > >>> > >>> The ?Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort? is on Facebook at > >>> > >>> The TV program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is > on > >>> Urbana Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube) > >>> > >>> ### > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Peace mailing list > >>> Peace at lists.chambana.net > >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Peace-discuss mailing list > >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Peace mailing list > > Peace at lists.chambana.net > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Wed Dec 4 02:49:02 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 20:49:02 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Flyer for Dec. 7 demo Message-ID: <193FCA6F-914C-4F8C-84A3-CD9828990BD9@newsfromneptune.com> [Flyer to be distributed at AWARE's regular monthly anti-war demonstration Saturday 7 December 2-4pm at the Susan B. Anthony Memorial Fountain, intersection of Main & Neil in Champaign] ===================================================================================================== ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the U.S. political establishment?s way of distracting you from America?s war-making around the world The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how terrible U.S. government war-making is - most recently in Venezuela and Bolivia. And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump administration?s policy seems little different from that of the Obama administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to end the Obama-Clinton wars. President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush administration (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight (attacking Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well) and became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two terms. Not even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln (Civil War) did that. As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really good at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.? While ?covering sin with smooth names,? Obama continued America?s longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of Eurasia, for fear that it would interfere with the U.S. elite?s economic exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it - in part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic development of Russia and China. Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million people in wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) designed to destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained as the only major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 million people in defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a half million people.) That is why today international polls show that the U.S. is the most feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.? With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president and government (a) to close the thousand U.S. military bases on foreign soil (most encircling Russia and China), (b) to bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and (c) to provide social supports - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made poorer by generations of our government?s wars. ~~~ In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in Congress-- ~ Senator Dick Durbin: ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: ~ Representative Rodney Davis: ~~~ This flyer is produced by members & friends of the ?Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort?; see on Facebook. The TV program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is on Urbana Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube). ### -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moboct1 at aim.com Wed Dec 4 13:21:29 2019 From: moboct1 at aim.com (Mildred O'brien) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 13:21:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] Flyer for Dec. 7 demo In-Reply-To: <193FCA6F-914C-4F8C-84A3-CD9828990BD9@newsfromneptune.com> References: <193FCA6F-914C-4F8C-84A3-CD9828990BD9@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: <1582349358.3256104.1575465689563@mail.yahoo.com> As Yale Law Prof. Bruce Ackerman was interviewed this morning on NPR about the House impeachment of Trump he tried to make the point that Trump should be impeached for more egregious violations of the Constitution on human rights than what he is charged with (Ukraine-Bidens) and tried to give examples when he was (im)politely cut short by "thank you for your time," like he gave the wrong answer.?? "It's not too late to give to your public news broadcast organization..." mo'b? ? ?? -----Original Message----- From: C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss To: Peace Cc: peace-discuss Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2019 8:50 pm Subject: [Peace-discuss] Flyer for Dec. 7 demo [Flyer to be distributed at AWARE's regular monthly anti-war demonstration Saturday 7 December 2-4pm at the Susan B. Anthony Memorial Fountain, intersection of Main & Neil in Champaign] ===================================================================================================== ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the U.S. political establishment?s way of distracting you from America?s war-making around the world The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how terrible U.S. government war-making is - most recently in Venezuela and Bolivia. And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump administration?s policy seems little different from that of the Obama administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to end the Obama-Clinton wars. President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush administration (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight (attacking Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well) and became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two terms. Not even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln (Civil War) did that. As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really good at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.? While ?covering sin with smooth names,? Obama continued America?s longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of Eurasia, for fear that it would interfere with the U.S. elite?s economic exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it - in part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic development of Russia and China. Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million people in wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) designed to destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained as the only major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 million people in defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a half million people.) That is why today international polls show that the U.S. is the most feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.? With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president and government (a) to close the thousand U.S. military bases on foreign soil (most encircling Russia and China), (b) to bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and (c) to provide social supports - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made poorer by generations of our government?s wars. ~~~ In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in Congress-- ~ Senator Dick Durbin: ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: ~ Representative Rodney Davis: ~~~ This flyer is produced by members & friends of the ?Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort?; see on Facebook. The TV program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is on Urbana Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube). ###_______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rwhelbig at gmail.com Wed Dec 4 13:38:44 2019 From: rwhelbig at gmail.com (Roger Helbig) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 05:38:44 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Flyer for Dec. 7 demo In-Reply-To: <1582349358.3256104.1575465689563@mail.yahoo.com> References: <193FCA6F-914C-4F8C-84A3-CD9828990BD9@newsfromneptune.com> <1582349358.3256104.1575465689563@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Impeachment is for personal acts of the President including personal direction of others to commit criminal actions - if you throw other things in, you get away from the "personal" aspect. Watch today's hearings and learn more about impeachment as a process and whether it is appropriate now and why/ On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 5:22 AM Mildred O'brien via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > As Yale Law Prof. Bruce Ackerman was interviewed this morning on NPR about > the House impeachment of Trump he tried to make the point that Trump should > be impeached for more egregious violations of the Constitution on human > rights than what he is charged with (Ukraine-Bidens) and tried to give > examples when he was (im)politely cut short by "thank you for your time," > like he gave the wrong answer. > > "It's not too late to give to your public news broadcast organization..." > > mo'b > > > -----Original Message----- > From: C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss > To: Peace > Cc: peace-discuss > Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2019 8:50 pm > Subject: [Peace-discuss] Flyer for Dec. 7 demo > > [Flyer to be distributed at AWARE's regular monthly anti-war demonstration > Saturday 7 December 2-4pm at the Susan B. Anthony Memorial Fountain, > intersection of Main & Neil in Champaign] > > ===================================================================================================== > > *?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the U.S. political establishment?s way of distracting > you from America?s war-making around the world* > The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how > terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how > terrible U.S. government war-making is - most recently in Venezuela and > Bolivia. > > And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump > administration?s policy seems little different from that of the Obama > administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to > end the Obama-Clinton wars. > > President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush administration > (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight (attacking > Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well) and > became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two terms. Not > even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln (Civil War) did > that. > > As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of > American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really good > at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.? > > While ?covering sin with smooth names,? Obama continued America?s > longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of > Eurasia, for fear that it would interfere with the U.S. elite?s economic > exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war provocations > against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. > > Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it - in > part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to > maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic > development of Russia and China. > > Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million people in > wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) designed to > destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained as the only > major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 million people in > defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a half million people.) > > That is why today international polls show that the U.S. is the most > feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The > rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin > Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the > world today.? > > With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president and > government > (a) to close the thousand U.S. military bases on foreign soil (most > encircling Russia and China), > (b) to bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and > (c) to provide social supports - including free medical care, education, > and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made poorer by > generations of our government?s wars. > ~~~ > In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in Congress-- > ~ Senator Dick Durbin: > ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: < > https://www.duckworth.senate.gov/content/contact-senator> > ~ Representative Rodney Davis: > ~~~ > > > > *This flyer is produced by members & friends of the ?Anti-War Anti-Racism > Effort?; see on Facebook.The TV > program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is on Urbana > Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube).* > *###* > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Wed Dec 4 22:26:28 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 16:26:28 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for Dec. 7 anti-war demo REVISED In-Reply-To: <736338A8-DAE5-4CD8-9AC2-44BDFA81F264@illinois.edu> References: <736338A8-DAE5-4CD8-9AC2-44BDFA81F264@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <2010C5AD-6272-460F-8DD9-F97F30BA2F71@newsfromneptune.com> "...Trump?s most unforgivable sin in the eyes of the deep state is his criticism of the empire?s endless wars, even though he lacks the intellectual and organizational skills to oversee a disengagement?? > On Dec 3, 2019, at 11:41 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace wrote: > > The U.S. is now fomenting, under Trump, proxy and economic wars, not direct military conflicts with U.S. forces (which would alarm the public with casualties and U.S. vulnerabilities). Quite clever? But terriby destructive and lethal nonetheless, In Syria, Ukraine, Venezuela, Yemen, Bolivia, Nicaragua, Cuba, in Africa, Palestine, etc.. Trump is no bystander. He is the lancepoint of American foreign policy, and should be beholden for these manifold policies, as well as on other critical policies such as nuclear weapons issues, military-national security budgets, domestic issues?, that he embodies. > > One can get the impression that Carl serves as an apologist for Trump by slyly deflecting criticisms from him to past U.S. transgressions ?. > > Especially admirable is the next to last entry (With other peace groups?) of your pamphlet. > > UBI? What? > > > >> On Dec 3, 2019, at 10:37 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> Much better. >> >> Though I do have a question given the flyer is supposed to reflect the opinions of most AWARE folks, or those who intend to be at the demo. Saturday: Do most members of AWARE support UBI? >> >> >>> On Dec 3, 2019, at 08:30, C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: >>> >>> [Incorporates several suggestions from members & friends of AWARE] >>> >>> ===================================================================================================== >>> ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the U.S. political establishment?s way of distracting you from America?s war-making around the world >>> >>> The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how terrible U.S. government war-making is - most recently in Venezuela and Bolivia. >>> >>> And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump administration?s policy seems little different from that of the Obama administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to end the Obama-Clinton wars. >>> >>> President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush administration (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight (attacking Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well) and became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two terms. Not even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln (Civil War) did that. >>> >>> As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really good at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.? >>> >>> While ?covering sin with smooth names,? Obama continued America?s longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of Eurasia, for fear that it would interfere with the U.S. elite?s economic exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. >>> >>> Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it - in part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic development of Russia and China. >>> >>> Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million people in wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) designed to destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained as the only major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 million people in defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a half million people.) >>> >>> That is why today international polls show that the U.S. is the most feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.? >>> >>> With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president and government >>> (a) to close the thousand U.S. military bases on foreign soil (most encircling Russia and China), >>> (b) to bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and >>> (c) to provide social supports - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made poorer by generations of our government?s wars. >>> ~~~ >>> >>> In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in Congress-- >>> ~ Senator Dick Durbin: >>> ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: >>> ~ Representative Rodney Davis: >>> ~~~ >>> >>> The ?Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort? is on Facebook at >>> >>> The TV program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is on >>> Urbana Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube) >>> >>> ### >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace mailing list >>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace From carl at newsfromneptune.com Wed Dec 4 23:07:48 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 17:07:48 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Astore on war In-Reply-To: <6D67FF0C-D4E7-4FA7-B9DF-ADCAF382F8EE@icloud.com> References: <6D67FF0C-D4E7-4FA7-B9DF-ADCAF382F8EE@icloud.com> Message-ID: ...Trump committed political heresy when he dared to point out the folly of unchecked militarism. He will pay for it. The deep state intends to replace him with someone?perhaps Mike Pence, as morally and intellectually vacuous as Trump?who will do what he or she is told. This is the role of America?s executive: Personify and humanize the empire. Do so with pomp and dignity. Barack Obama?who speciously reinterpreted the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force to give the executive the right to assassinate anyone abroad, even a U.S. citizen, deemed to be a terrorist?excelled at the game. The removal of Trump from office would not threaten corporate power. It would not restore civil liberties, including our right to privacy and due process. It would not demilitarize the police or champion the rights of the working class. It would not impede the profits of the fossil fuel and banking industries. It would not address the climate emergency. It would not disrupt the warrantless surveillance of the public. It would not end extraordinary renditions, the kidnapping of those around the globe considered to be enemies of the state. It would not halt the assassinations by militarized drones. It would not halt the separation of children from their parents and the warehousing of these children in filthy, overcrowded conditions. It would not remedy the consolidation of wealth and power by the oligarchs and the further impoverishment of the citizenry. The expansion of our prison system and of black sites throughout the world, sites where we torture, would continue, as would the gunning down of poor, unarmed citizens in urban wastelands. Most importantly, the catastrophic foreign wars that have resulted in a series of failed states and wasted trillions of taxpayer dollars, would remain sacrosanct, enthusiastically embraced by the leaders of the two ruling parties, puppets of the deep state. The impeachment of Trump, despite the enthusiasm of the liberal elite, is mostly cosmetic. The entire political and governmental system is corrupt. Hunter Biden was reportedly paid $50,000 a month to sit on the board of the Ukrainian gas company Burisma Holdings, although he has no training or experience in the gas industry. He had previously worked for the credit card corporation MBNA, which was one of Joe Biden?s largest campaign contributors when he was a senator from Delaware. Hunter Biden was hired by Burisma Holdings for the same reason he was hired by MBNA. His father, long a tool of corporate power and the military-industrial complex, in short the deep state, was a senator and later the vice president. Joe Biden, the Clintons and the Democratic Party leaders personify the legalized bribery that defines their rivals in the Republican Party. Corporate candidates in the two ruling parties are preselected, funded and anointed. If they do not abide by the demands of the deep state, which protects corporate interests and the management of empire, they are removed. There is even a word for it?primarying. Corporate lobbyists write the laws. The courts enforce them. There is no way in the American political system to vote against the interests of Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, AT&T, Amazon, Microsoft, Walmart, Alphabet, Facebook, Apple, Exxon Mobil, Lockheed Martin, UnitedHealth Group or Northrop Grumman. We, the American public, are spectators. An audience. Who will be seated when the game of musical chairs stops? Will Trump be able to hold on to power? Will Pence be the new president? Or will the deep state elevate a political hack like Biden or a neoliberal apologist such as Pete Butiggieg, Amy Klobuchar or Kamala Harris to the White House? Will it draft Michael Bloomberg, John Kerry, Sherrod Brown or, God forbid, Hillary Clinton? And what if the deep state fails? What if the rot in the Republican Party, or what Glen Ford calls Trump?s ?white man?s party,? is so profound it won?t sign on for the political extinction of the most incompetent president in American history? The power struggle, which includes blocking Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren from obtaining the Democratic Party nomination, will make for months of great television and generate billions in advertising revenue. The war between the deep state and Trump began the moment he was elected. Former CIA Director John Brennan and former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper?both now paid news cable commentators?along with former FBI head James Comey soon would accuse Trump of being a tool of Moscow. Intelligence agencies leaked salacious stories about ?pee tapes? and blackmail, plus reports of ?repeated contacts? with Russian intelligence. Brennan, Clapper and Comey were quickly joined by other former intelligence officials, including Michael Hayden, Michael Morell and Andrew McCabe. Their attacks were then amplified by former senior military leaders including William McRaven, James Mattis, H.R. McMaster, John Kelly, James Stavridis and Barry McCaffrey... The impeachment of Trump marks a new and frightening chapter in American politics. The deep state has shown its face. It has made a public declaration that it will not tolerate dissent, although Trump?s dissent is rhetorical, mercurial and ineffectual. The effort to impeach Trump sends an ominous message to the American left. The deep state not only intends to prevent, as it did in 2016, Bernie Sanders or any other progressive Democrat from achieving power, but has signaled that it will destroy any politician who attempts to question the maintenance and expansion of empire. Its animus toward the left is far more pronounced than its animus toward Trump. And its resources to destroy those on the left are nearly inexhaustible... There are no internal or external checks on the deep state. The democratic institutions, including the press, that once gave citizens a voice and a say in the exercise of power have been neutered. The deep state will further the corporate consolidation of wealth and power, expand the social inequality that has thrust half of Americans into poverty or near poverty, strip us of our remaining civil liberties and feed the rapacious appetites of the military and the war industry. The resources of the state will be squandered as the federal deficit balloons. The frustration and feelings of stagnation among a disempowered and neglected citizenry, which contributed to the election of Trump, will mount. There will come a moment of reckoning, as there has during the last few days in Lebanon and Chile. Social unrest is inevitable. Any population can be pushed only so far. The deep state, incapable of reform and determined to retain its grip on power, will morph under the threat of popular unrest into a corporatized fascism. It has at its disposal the legal and physical tools to instantly turn the United States into a police state. This is the real danger behind the deep state?s drive to impeach Trump. It is a stark message to obey or be silenced. Trump, in the end, is not the problem. We are... --Chris Hedges > On Dec 1, 2019, at 6:12 PM, Morton K. Brussel via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Not bad, this article, although never mentioning the economic systems that seem endemic? He ends with this: > > We need to stop idealizing war and idolizing its so-called warriors. At stake is nothing less than the future of humanity and the viability of life, as we know it, on Spaceship Earth. > > See. http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/176635/tomgram%3A_william_astore%2C_mutiny_on_spaceship_earth/#more > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com Thu Dec 5 00:58:11 2019 From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 18:58:11 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for Dec. 7 anti-war demo REVISED In-Reply-To: <2010C5AD-6272-460F-8DD9-F97F30BA2F71@newsfromneptune.com> References: <736338A8-DAE5-4CD8-9AC2-44BDFA81F264@illinois.edu> <2010C5AD-6272-460F-8DD9-F97F30BA2F71@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: <08B1A054-220D-426A-B806-B126DDCACBB1@gmail.com> So he is making up with the so-called deep state by sending 14,000 more troops to the Middle East Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 4, 2019, at 4:26 PM, C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: > > "...Trump?s most unforgivable sin in the eyes of the deep state is his criticism of the empire?s endless wars, even though he lacks the intellectual and organizational skills to oversee a disengagement?? > > > > >> On Dec 3, 2019, at 11:41 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace wrote: >> >> The U.S. is now fomenting, under Trump, proxy and economic wars, not direct military conflicts with U.S. forces (which would alarm the public with casualties and U.S. vulnerabilities). Quite clever? But terriby destructive and lethal nonetheless, In Syria, Ukraine, Venezuela, Yemen, Bolivia, Nicaragua, Cuba, in Africa, Palestine, etc.. Trump is no bystander. He is the lancepoint of American foreign policy, and should be beholden for these manifold policies, as well as on other critical policies such as nuclear weapons issues, military-national security budgets, domestic issues?, that he embodies. >> >> One can get the impression that Carl serves as an apologist for Trump by slyly deflecting criticisms from him to past U.S. transgressions ?. >> >> Especially admirable is the next to last entry (With other peace groups?) of your pamphlet. >> >> UBI? What? >> >> >> >>> On Dec 3, 2019, at 10:37 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>> >>> Much better. >>> >>> Though I do have a question given the flyer is supposed to reflect the opinions of most AWARE folks, or those who intend to be at the demo. Saturday: Do most members of AWARE support UBI? >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 3, 2019, at 08:30, C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: >>>> >>>> [Incorporates several suggestions from members & friends of AWARE] >>>> >>>> ===================================================================================================== >>>> ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the U.S. political establishment?s way of distracting you from America?s war-making around the world >>>> >>>> The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how terrible U.S. government war-making is - most recently in Venezuela and Bolivia. >>>> >>>> And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump administration?s policy seems little different from that of the Obama administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to end the Obama-Clinton wars. >>>> >>>> President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush administration (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight (attacking Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well) and became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two terms. Not even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln (Civil War) did that. >>>> >>>> As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really good at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.? >>>> >>>> While ?covering sin with smooth names,? Obama continued America?s longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of Eurasia, for fear that it would interfere with the U.S. elite?s economic exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. >>>> >>>> Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it - in part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic development of Russia and China. >>>> >>>> Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million people in wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) designed to destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained as the only major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 million people in defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a half million people.) >>>> >>>> That is why today international polls show that the U.S. is the most feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.? >>>> >>>> With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president and government >>>> (a) to close the thousand U.S. military bases on foreign soil (most encircling Russia and China), >>>> (b) to bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and >>>> (c) to provide social supports - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made poorer by generations of our government?s wars. >>>> ~~~ >>>> >>>> In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in Congress-- >>>> ~ Senator Dick Durbin: >>>> ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: >>>> ~ Representative Rodney Davis: >>>> ~~~ >>>> >>>> The ?Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort? is on Facebook at >>>> >>>> The TV program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is on >>>> Urbana Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube) >>>> >>>> ### >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace mailing list >>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace From carl at newsfromneptune.com Thu Dec 5 01:20:41 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 19:20:41 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for Dec. 7 anti-war demo REVISED In-Reply-To: <08B1A054-220D-426A-B806-B126DDCACBB1@gmail.com> References: <736338A8-DAE5-4CD8-9AC2-44BDFA81F264@illinois.edu> <2010C5AD-6272-460F-8DD9-F97F30BA2F71@newsfromneptune.com> <08B1A054-220D-426A-B806-B126DDCACBB1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <859E91DC-EBDB-40AA-9FE4-A8AABAEE4942@newsfromneptune.com> That?s surely what they want him to do. (Obama sent 30,000 more US troops at a similar point in his first administration.) > On Dec 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn wrote: > > So he is making up with the so-called deep state by sending 14,000 more troops to the Middle East > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 4, 2019, at 4:26 PM, C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: >> >> "...Trump?s most unforgivable sin in the eyes of the deep state is his criticism of the empire?s endless wars, even though he lacks the intellectual and organizational skills to oversee a disengagement?? >> >> >> >> >>> On Dec 3, 2019, at 11:41 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace wrote: >>> >>> The U.S. is now fomenting, under Trump, proxy and economic wars, not direct military conflicts with U.S. forces (which would alarm the public with casualties and U.S. vulnerabilities). Quite clever? But terriby destructive and lethal nonetheless, In Syria, Ukraine, Venezuela, Yemen, Bolivia, Nicaragua, Cuba, in Africa, Palestine, etc.. Trump is no bystander. He is the lancepoint of American foreign policy, and should be beholden for these manifold policies, as well as on other critical policies such as nuclear weapons issues, military-national security budgets, domestic issues?, that he embodies. >>> >>> One can get the impression that Carl serves as an apologist for Trump by slyly deflecting criticisms from him to past U.S. transgressions ?. >>> >>> Especially admirable is the next to last entry (With other peace groups?) of your pamphlet. >>> >>> UBI? What? >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 3, 2019, at 10:37 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> Much better. >>>> >>>> Though I do have a question given the flyer is supposed to reflect the opinions of most AWARE folks, or those who intend to be at the demo. Saturday: Do most members of AWARE support UBI? >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 3, 2019, at 08:30, C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: >>>>> >>>>> [Incorporates several suggestions from members & friends of AWARE] >>>>> >>>>> ===================================================================================================== >>>>> ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the U.S. political establishment?s way of distracting you from America?s war-making around the world >>>>> >>>>> The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how terrible U.S. government war-making is - most recently in Venezuela and Bolivia. >>>>> >>>>> And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump administration?s policy seems little different from that of the Obama administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to end the Obama-Clinton wars. >>>>> >>>>> President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush administration (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight (attacking Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well) and became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two terms. Not even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln (Civil War) did that. >>>>> >>>>> As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really good at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.? >>>>> >>>>> While ?covering sin with smooth names,? Obama continued America?s longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of Eurasia, for fear that it would interfere with the U.S. elite?s economic exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. >>>>> >>>>> Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it - in part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic development of Russia and China. >>>>> >>>>> Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million people in wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) designed to destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained as the only major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 million people in defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a half million people.) >>>>> >>>>> That is why today international polls show that the U.S. is the most feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.? >>>>> >>>>> With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president and government >>>>> (a) to close the thousand U.S. military bases on foreign soil (most encircling Russia and China), >>>>> (b) to bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and >>>>> (c) to provide social supports - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made poorer by generations of our government?s wars. >>>>> ~~~ >>>>> >>>>> In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in Congress-- >>>>> ~ Senator Dick Durbin: >>>>> ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: >>>>> ~ Representative Rodney Davis: >>>>> ~~~ >>>>> >>>>> The ?Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort? is on Facebook at >>>>> >>>>> The TV program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is on >>>>> Urbana Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube) >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Peace mailing list >>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace mailing list >>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > From carl at newsfromneptune.com Thu Dec 5 02:22:50 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 20:22:50 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Flyer for Dec. 7 demo In-Reply-To: References: <193FCA6F-914C-4F8C-84A3-CD9828990BD9@newsfromneptune.com> <1582349358.3256104.1575465689563@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <97024E26-7851-43C0-BB0B-8386E8B3D09E@newsfromneptune.com> During the impeachment of Bill Clinton in 1999, White House Counsel Charles Ruff described a "narrow" interpretation of "high crimes and misdemeanors" as requiring "a standard that the framers intentionally set at this extraordinarily high level to ensure that only the most serious offenses and in particular those that subverted our system of government would justify overturning a popular election". Writing in 1999, Mark R. Slusar commented that the narrow interpretation seemed to be most common among legal scholars and senators. Wikipedia > On Dec 4, 2019, at 7:38 AM, Roger Helbig via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Impeachment is for personal acts of the President including personal direction of others to commit criminal actions - if you throw other things in, you get away from the "personal" aspect. Watch today's hearings and learn more about impeachment as a process and whether it is appropriate now and why/ > > On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 5:22 AM Mildred O'brien via Peace-discuss wrote: > As Yale Law Prof. Bruce Ackerman was interviewed this morning on NPR about the House impeachment of Trump he tried to make the point that Trump should be impeached for more egregious violations of the Constitution on human rights than what he is charged with (Ukraine-Bidens) and tried to give examples when he was (im)politely cut short by "thank you for your time," like he gave the wrong answer. > > "It's not too late to give to your public news broadcast organization..." > > mo'b > > > -----Original Message----- > From: C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss > To: Peace > Cc: peace-discuss > Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2019 8:50 pm > Subject: [Peace-discuss] Flyer for Dec. 7 demo > > [Flyer to be distributed at AWARE's regular monthly anti-war demonstration Saturday 7 December 2-4pm at the Susan B. Anthony Memorial Fountain, intersection of Main & Neil in Champaign] > ===================================================================================================== > ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the U.S. political establishment?s way of distracting you from America?s war-making around the world > > The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how terrible U.S. government war-making is - most recently in Venezuela and Bolivia. > > And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump administration?s policy seems little different from that of the Obama administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to end the Obama-Clinton wars. > > President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush administration (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight (attacking Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well) and became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two terms. Not even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln (Civil War) did that. > > As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really good at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.? > > While ?covering sin with smooth names,? Obama continued America?s longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of Eurasia, for fear that it would interfere with the U.S. elite?s economic exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. > > Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it - in part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic development of Russia and China. > > Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million people in wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) designed to destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained as the only major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 million people in defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a half million people.) > > That is why today international polls show that the U.S. is the most feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.? > > With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president and government > (a) to close the thousand U.S. military bases on foreign soil (most encircling Russia and China), > (b) to bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and > (c) to provide social supports - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made poorer by generations of our government?s wars. > ~~~ > In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in Congress-- > ~ Senator Dick Durbin: > ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: > ~ Representative Rodney Davis: > ~~~ > This flyer is produced by members & friends of the ?Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort?; see on Facebook. > The TV program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is on Urbana Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube). > > ### > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From carl at newsfromneptune.com Thu Dec 5 02:29:15 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 20:29:15 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] A Surefire Cure For Despair In-Reply-To: References: <139971992.7473.0@wordpress.com> Message-ID: Some more of Beckett?s dark wisdom: "Lowenfels got frustrated & burst out, 'You sit there saying nothing while the world is going to pieces. What do you want? What do you want to do?' [Samuel] Beckett crossed his legs and replied, 'Walter, all I want to do is sit on my ass and fart and think of Dante.'? [J. Burns] https://images.app.goo.gl/Mqwmem57YJxzd8hQ7 > On Dec 4, 2019, at 6:50 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: > > >> >> New post on Caitlin Johnstone >> >> >> A Surefire Cure For Despair >> by Caitlin Johnstone >> "I can't go on. I'll go on." >> ~ Samuel Beckett >> >> Sometimes it just gets to be too goddamn much. You just finished a soul-draining argument with a family member who insists that Putin controls all major world events because that's what the TV said so it must be true, then you check the poll numbers for the upcoming elections in the US and UK and you see your favorite candidates just don't have the kind of numbers they're going to need, the latest revelation that the US and its allies deceived the world about what's happening in Syria has been completely swept under the rug by the establishment news churn, Bolivia has been taken over by US-backed Christian fascists, and now you're watching Mike Pompeo's stupid asshole face spouting some made-up bullshit about Iran that you know the news media will never hold him accountable for. >> >> And it's just too goddamn much. >> >> To become oppositional to the status quo is to enter into a long-term relationship with despair. It's not a monogamous relationship; you'll have the occasional affair with anger, a fling with fear, a rendezvous with rage, and every once in a while even a brief tryst with triumph. But you always end up drunkenly stumbling home to bed with the old ball-and-chain despair. >> >> Every time you think you might have the bastards on the ropes, every time you see a shining crack in the cage, a glowing glitch in the matrix, it's quickly covered up by some gibberish about Russia or empty shrieking about Donald Trump, and then everyone's herded along into the next authorised imperial narrative. >> >> This is because the deck is stacked so very high against you. The rulers of the empire have all the money, all the resources, all the infrastructure and almost all the media, and they use these advantages ceaselessly to shift things around in order to prevent the unwashed masses from rising up and toppling their palaces. >> >> It's possible to avoid confronting this reality by busying oneself with activism and information, but at some point despair always kicks in. >> >> So what do you do? I get asked this all the time. >> >> "How do you stay so optimistic, Caitlin?" people often ask me. "How, in the face of so much deception, exploitation and oppression, do you avoid giving in to despair?" >> >> Well I'll tell you my secret: I don't. >> >> I don't avoid despair at all. I give into it fully, over and over and over again. >> >> Whenever things seem hopeless and I feel like I'm bashing my head against a solid brick wall, I just say, "Fine then. I quit." >> >> And then I do. >> >> I quit fully. I let go of the entire battle. I let go of all the responsibility I feel to help create a better world. I let go of my desire to stick it to the bastards, and I relinquish every inch of skin I've got in this game. I lay down (sometimes literally), and I stop struggling against the relentless tide of establishment evil. >> >> And I feel a tremendous relief. Ah, what a great feeling! To no longer be holding the world together with my efforts! >> >> Having been granted the thing that it wanted, the crushing weight of despair is lifted from my chest. It snatches its terrible prize and slithers off to gnaw on it in a dark corner somewhere. >> >> And then something interesting happens. The world keeps turning. And it doesn't fall apart. >> >> It's the darndest thing. I stopped holding off armageddon through sheer force of will, yet the world remains. The sun comes up, the birds chirp, the internet forum debates continue, and my lungs keep taking in oxygen. >> >> A lot of magic can happen in that space. When you quit. When you relinquish the illusion that your sustained, straining willpower has anything to do with the continued battle against corruption and bloodshed. >> >> Because in that moment you see clearly that it's got nothing to do with you. Anti-imperialists pick up their weapons and begin the battle anew each morning, regardless of anything you're doing or saying. Your body keeps taking in air, pumping blood and digesting food regardless of anything you're doing or saying. And, without the assistance of any Atlas-like effort on your part whatsoever, you'll notice that your body also re-engages in the battle. >> >> Because what the hell else is it going to do? Not fight? Of course not. What has been seen will never be unseen. Your operating system isn't going to stop fighting the bad guys just because you stopped willing it to, any more than your body will refrain from putting its arms up when someone throws a baseball at your head. >> >> You can trust that your whole body-brain-organism-thingy will keep fighting with or without the sustained straining of your personal willpower. And that works out nicely, because it's the sustained straining of your personal willpower that creates the sense of despair. If you aren't constantly straining to win elections, expose wrongdoing, topple the oligarchs and end wars by sheer force of will, and are rather just picking up your weapons of truth and compassion and doing what comes naturally to you from moment to moment, then despair really has nothing to work with, because you're not fixated on some remote end-goal that keeps getting obstacles thrown in front of it. >> >> Journalist Chris Hedges once said, ?I do not fight fascists because I will win. I fight fascists because they are fascists.? It's the fighting itself that matters, and you can trust that that fighting will continue even without your sustained personal will. >> >> Don't take my word for it. Next time you find yourself feeling like you can't go on fighting this fight anymore, just give up. Quit. Then watch what happens. Before long you'll see your fingers typing dissident ideas onto screens, you'll hear your voice speaking unauthorized truths, you'll watch your mind forming forbidden ideas. And it will all be happening without "you", without the sustained personal effort of the thing you take yourself to be. >> >> This fight will fight itself, if you let it. And it can actually fight a lot more efficiently without the sustained sense of personal effort constantly bogging the whole process down with frustration and despair. Just let your body's operating system fight this one on its own. It doesn't need your help. >> >> And in the end, maybe the war will be won. Maybe it won't. It's really none of your business. Your job is to let your organism fight for its life, as it's been conditioned to do by millions of years of evolution. That evolutionary drive to survive was here long before you showed up, and it will remain after you're gone. It's got nothing to do with you. So stand back and let it fight. >> >> ___________________________ >> >> (Image via www.aboblist.com) >> >> Thanks for reading! The best way to get around the internet censors and make sure you see the stuff I publish is to subscribe to the mailing list for my website, which will get you an email notification for everything I publish. My work is entirely reader-supported, so if you enjoyed this piece please consider sharing it around, liking me on Facebook, following my antics on Twitter, checking out my podcast on either Youtube, soundcloud, Apple podcasts or Spotify, following me on Steemit, throwing some money into my hat on Patreon or Paypal, purchasing some of my sweet merchandise, buying my new book Rogue Nation: Psychonautical Adventures With Caitlin Johnstone, or my previous book Woke: A Field Guide for Utopia Preppers. For more info on who I am, where I stand, and what I'm trying to do with this platform, click here. Everyone, racist platforms excluded, has my permission to republish or use any part of this work (or anything else I?ve written) in any way they like free of charge. >> >> >> >> Bitcoin donations:1Ac7PCQXoQoLA9Sh8fhAgiU3PHA2EX5Zm2 >> >> P >> >> Caitlin Johnstone | December 4, 2019 at 2:35 am | Tags: caitlin johnstone, despair, revolution | Categories: Article | URL: https://wp.me/p9tj6M-1Wx >> Comment See all comments >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace From carl at newsfromneptune.com Thu Dec 5 03:56:41 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 21:56:41 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Trump's crime Message-ID: <33DEAC07-57DE-4846-B198-F9A1BC2E61E9@newsfromneptune.com> "Trump's real crime, the document makes clear, is drifting from the aggressive anti-Russian posture adopted by the Obama administration and supported by the dominant factions of the military/intelligence and foreign policy establishments.? https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/04/impe-d04.html From jbw292002 at gmail.com Thu Dec 5 03:59:54 2019 From: jbw292002 at gmail.com (John W.) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 21:59:54 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Trump's crime In-Reply-To: <33DEAC07-57DE-4846-B198-F9A1BC2E61E9@newsfromneptune.com> References: <33DEAC07-57DE-4846-B198-F9A1BC2E61E9@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: Carl, with all due respect, there's one thing I'm thankful for. That we have e-mail now. That every time I throw one of these goofy claims of yours in the trash, I'm not wasting paper. On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 9:57 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace < peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: "Trump's real crime, the document makes clear, is drifting from the > aggressive anti-Russian posture adopted by the Obama administration and > supported by the dominant factions of the military/intelligence and foreign > policy establishments.? > > https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/04/impe-d04.html > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Thu Dec 5 04:08:54 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 22:08:54 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] A good summary In-Reply-To: References: <006101d5a3ae$6982e280$3c88a780$@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Nov 26, 2019, at 10:07 AM, Ricky Baldwin via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Ok, thanks, David. This does seem to be the beginnings of a case that could be made for US "funding and training" the coup in Ukraine. Certainly the coup was welcomed by USG - and encouraged. And if this holds up, it looks like at least some of the putschists in Ukraine were US vectors. Bad, anyway, very bad. > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID > On Nov 25, 2019 10:52 AM, David Johnson wrote: > How and Why the US Government Perpetrated the 2014 Coup in Ukraine > [https://www.strategic-culture.org/wp-content/themes/strategic-culture/layout/static/acjHM66QQR5kCh1rvkLeUXWRoIw.png] > Eric Zuesse > > [https://www.strategic-culture.org/wp-content/themes/strategic-culture/layout/static/4tonPx6ZVVE9r7ECg0qIKaFDElw.png] > June 3, 2018 > ? Photo: Public domain > This will document that the ?new Cold War? between the US and Russia did not start, as the Western myth has it, with Russia?s involvement in the breakaway of Crimea and Donbass from Ukraine, after Ukraine ? next door to Russia ? had suddenly turned rabidly hostile toward Russia in February 2014. Ukraine?s replacing its democratically elected neutralist Government in February 2014, by a rabidly anti-Russian Government, was a violent event, which produced many corpses. It?s presented in The West as having been a ?revolution? instead of a coup; but whatever it was, it certainly generated the ?new Cold War? (the economic sanctions and NATO buildup on Russia?s borders); and, to know whether it was a coup, or instead a revolution, is to know what actually started the ?new Cold War?, and why. So, this is historically very important. > Incontrovertible proofs will be presented here not only that it was a coup, but that this coup was organized by the US Government ? that the US Government initiated the ?new Cold War?; Russia?s Government reacted to America?s aggression, which aims to place nuclear missiles in Ukraine, less than ten minutes flight-time from Moscow. During the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis, America had reason to fear Soviet nuclear missiles 103 miles from America?s border. But, after America?s Ukrainian coup in 2014, Russia has reason to fear NATO nuclear missiles not just near, but on, Russia?s border. That would be catastrophic. > If America?s successful February 2014 overthrow and replacement of Ukraine?s democratically elected neutralist Government doesn?t soon produce a world-ending nuclear war (World War III), then there will be historical accounts of that overthrow, and the accounts are already increasingly trending and consolidating toward a historical consensus that it was a coup ? that it was imposed by ?somebody from the new coalition? ? i.e., that the termination of the then-existing democratic (though like all its predecessors, corrupt) Ukrainian Government, wasn?t authentically a ?revolution? such as the US Government has contended, and certainly wasn?t at all democratic, but was instead a coup (and a very bloody one, at that), and totally illegal (though backed by The West). > The purpose of the present article will be to focus attention on precisely whom the chief people are who were responsible for perpetrating this globally mega-dangerous (?Cold-War?-igniting) coup ? and thus for creating the world?s subsequent course increasingly toward global nuclear annihilation. > If there will be future history, then these are the individuals who will be in the docks for that history?s harshest and most damning judgments, even if there will be no legal proceedings brought against them. Who, then, are these people? > Clearly, Victoria Nuland, US President Barack Obama?s central agent overseeing the coup, at least during the month of February 2014 when it climaxed, was crucial not only in overthrowing the existing Ukrainian Government, but in selecting and installing its rabidly anti-Russian replacement. The 27 January 2014 phone-conversation between her and America?s Ambassador in Ukraine, Jeffrey Pyatt was a particularly seminal event, and it was uploaded to youtube on 4 February 2014. I have discussed elsewhere that call and its significance. Nuland there and then abandoned the EU?s hope for a still democratic but less corrupt future government for Ukraine, and Nuland famously said, on that call ?Fuck the EU,? and she instructed Pyatt to choose instead the rabidly anti-Russian, and far-right, Arseniy Yatsenyuk. This key event occurred 24 days before Ukraine?s President Victor Yanukovych was overthrown on February 20th, and 30 days before the new person to head Ukraine?s Government, Yatsenyuk, became officially appointed to rule the now clearly fascist country. He won that official designation on February 26th. However, this was only a formality: Obama?s agent had already chosen him, on January 27th. > The second landmark item of evidence that it had been a coup and nothing at all democratic or a ?revolution?, was the 26 February 2014 phone-conversation between the EU?s Foreign Minister Catherine Ashton and her agent in Ukraine investigating whether the overthrow had been a revolution or instead a coup; he was Estonia?s Foreign Minister, Urmas Paet, and he told her that he found that it had been a coup, and that ?somebody from the new coalition? had engineered it ? but he didn?t know whom that ?somebody? was. Both Ashton and Paet were shocked at this finding, but they proceeded immediately to ignore that matter, and to discuss only the prospects for Europe?s investors in Ukraine, to be able to get their money back ? their obsession was Ukraine's corruption. Ashton told Paet that she had herself told the Maidan demonstrators, ?you need to find ways in which you can establish a process that will have anti-corruption at its heart.? So, though the EU was unhappy that this had been a coup, they were far more concerned to protect their investors. In any case, the EU clearly wasn?t behind Ukraine's coup. Equally clearly, they didn?t much care whether it was a coup or instead what the US Government said, a ?revolution'. > The network behind this coup had actually started planning for the coup back in 2011. That?s when Eric Schmidt of Google, and Jared Cohen, also now of Google but still continuing though unofficially as US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton?s chief person tasked to plan ?popular movements? to overthrow both Yanukovych in Ukraine, and Assad in Syria. > Then, on 1 March 2013, the implementation of this plan started: the first ?tech camp? to train far-right Ukrainians how to organize online the mass-demonstrations against Yanukovych, was held inside the US Embassy in Kiev on that date, which was over nine months before the Maidan demonstrations to overthrow Ukraine?s democratically elected President started, on 20 November 2013. > The American scholar Gordon M. Hahn has specialized in studying the evidence regarding whom the actual snipers were who committed the murders, but he focuses only on domestic Ukrainian snipers and ignores the foreign ones, who had been hired by the US regime indirectly through Georgian, Lithuanian and other anti-Russian CIA assets (such as via Mikheil Saakashvili, the ousted President of Georgia whom the US regime subsequently selected to become the Governor of the Odessa region of Ukraine). Hahn?s 2018 book Ukraine Over the Edge states on pages 204-209: > "Yet another pro-Maidan sniper, Ivan Bubenchik, emerged to acknowledge that he shot and killed Berkut [the Government?s police who were protecting Government buildings] before any protesters were shot that day [February 20th]. In a print interview, Bubenchik previews his admission in Vladimir Tikhii?s documentary film, Brantsy, that he shot ahd killed two Berkut commanders in the early morning hours of February 20 on the Maidan. ? Bubenchik claims that [on February 20] the Yanukovich regime started the fire in the Trade Union House ? where his and many other EuroMaidan fighters lived during the revolt ? prompting the Maidan?s next reaction. As noted above, however, pro-Maidan neofascists have revealed that the Right Sector started that fire. ? Analysis of the snipers? massacre shows that the Maidan protesters initiated almost all ? at least six out of a possible eight ? of the pivotal escalatory moments of violence and/or coercion. ? The 30 November 2013 nighttime assault on the Maidan demonstrators is the only clear exception from a conclusive pattern of escalating revolutionary violence led by the Maidan?s relatively small but highly motivated and well-organized neofascist element." > Although Hahn?s book barely cites the first and most detailed academic study of the climactic coup period of late February, Ivan Katchanovski?s poorly written ?The ?Snipers? Massacre? on the Maidan in Ukraine?, which was issued on 5 September 2015, Hahn?s is consistent with that: both works conclude that the available evidence, as Katchanovski puts it, shows that: > ?The massacre was a false flag operation, which was rationally planned and carried out with a goal of the overthrow of the government and seizure of power. It [his investigation] found various evidence of the involvement of an alliance of the far right organizations, specifically the Right Sector and Svoboda, and oligarchic parties, such as Fatherland. Concealed shooters and spotters were located in at least 20 Maidan-controlled buildings or areas.? > Hahn downplays US heading of the coup. But shortly before the coup, the CIA secretly trained in Poland the Right Sector founder/leader Dmitriy Yarosh ("Dmytro Jarosz"), who headed Ukraine?s snipers. So, even the Ukrainian ones were working for the US > On 19 November 2017 was issued Gian Micalessin?s ?The hidden truth about Ukraine ? Part 1? > & Part 2 > Summarizing them here: Two Georgian snipers say Saakashvili hired them in Tbilisi for a US-backed operation. But they know only about the ?Georgian Legion? part. They think it was patterned on Georgia?s Rose Revolution. They each got $1000 for the operation and flew to Kiev on 15 January and were promised $5000 on return. (9:00) ?We had to provoke the ?Berkut? police so they would attack the people. By February 15th the situation [at the Maidan] was getting worse every day. Then the first shots were fired.? It was February 15 or 16. Mamunashvili [Saakashvili?s man] introduced them to ?an American military guy, ? Brian Christopher Boyenger? a former ?sniper for the 101st Airborne Division? who ?after Maidan he went to Donbass? to fight in the ?Georgian Legion? but during the coup-climax, the far-right Andriy ?Parubiy came very often,? and ?Brian always accompanied him? and also instructing there was Vladimir Parasyuk, one of the leaders of the Maidan. The snipers were told not to aim but just to kill people randomly, to create chaos. There were also two Lithuanian snipers in the room. Some went down from the Ukraine Hotel to the second floor of the Conservatory Building, balcony. ?They started to take out the guns and distributed them to each group.? ?Then I heard shots from the next room? It lasted 15 minutes, then they were all ordered to escape. > On 13 February 2015 was telecast a German documentary, ?Maidan Snipers. German TV expose. ARD Monitor. Eng Subs? in which one of the demonstrators said that many of the bullets were fired from buildings controlled by the demonstrators, but that ?We were also shot at from the other direction.? However, at least before 21 February 2014, police (Berkut) were seized by demonstrators and at least the possibility exists that some of the Right Sector snipers were taking positions in and especially atop some of the government buildings so as to fire down into the crowd and seem to be firing from Yanukovych?s side. Gordon Hahn hasn?t been able to verify any firing in February 2014 by the Yanukovych government. Moreover: ?they were the same snipers, killing people from both sides.? > On 1 February 2016 was posted to youtube a French documentary, ?Ukraine ? Masks of the Revolution? which shows, from a meeting at Davos, at 48:00, Victoria Nuland, the announcer trying to speak with her and saying to the audience, ?The US diplomat who came to support the Revolution, could she really ignore the existence of the paramilitaries??; 48:50 Larry Summers at a meeting in Kiev during 10-12 September 2015 and then later at the ?12th YES Annual Meeting? saying, ?Ukraine is an essential outpost of our fundamental military interests?; 49:25: Petraeus also shown there and the announcer says, ?He also thinks that Ukraine is essential to block Putin.? Petraeus urges investment in Ukraine to block Russia; 51:00 McChrystal there also urges arming Ukraine; 51:50 Nuland is there and the announcer says: ?The country that is most invested in Ukraine?s future is the US? ?She is the architect of America?s influence in Ukraine.? Nuland says there at the ?YES? meeting, ?We had a significant impact on the battlefield.? But the US regime blames Russia for that war. From carl at newsfromneptune.com Thu Dec 5 04:14:57 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 22:14:57 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Trump's crime In-Reply-To: References: <33DEAC07-57DE-4846-B198-F9A1BC2E61E9@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: John, it would be worth the cost in paper if you?d read them and inform yourself of the situation, instead of remaining within the propaganda nexus, as apparently you do now. > On Dec 4, 2019, at 9:59 PM, John W. wrote: > > > Carl, with all due respect, there's one thing I'm thankful for. That we have e-mail now. That every time I throw one of these goofy claims of yours in the trash, I'm not wasting paper. > > > > On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 9:57 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: > > "Trump's real crime, the document makes clear, is drifting from the aggressive anti-Russian posture adopted by the Obama administration and supported by the dominant factions of the military/intelligence and foreign policy establishments.? > > https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/04/impe-d04.html > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace From jbw292002 at gmail.com Thu Dec 5 04:22:23 2019 From: jbw292002 at gmail.com (John W.) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 22:22:23 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Trump's crime In-Reply-To: References: <33DEAC07-57DE-4846-B198-F9A1BC2E61E9@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the tip! On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 10:15 PM C. G. Estabrook wrote: > John, it would be worth the cost in paper if you?d read them and inform > yourself of the situation, instead of remaining within the propaganda > nexus, as apparently you do now. > > > > > On Dec 4, 2019, at 9:59 PM, John W. wrote: > > > > > > Carl, with all due respect, there's one thing I'm thankful for. That we > have e-mail now. That every time I throw one of these goofy claims of > yours in the trash, I'm not wasting paper. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 9:57 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace < > peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > > > "Trump's real crime, the document makes clear, is drifting from the > aggressive anti-Russian posture adopted by the Obama administration and > supported by the dominant factions of the military/intelligence and foreign > policy establishments.? > > > > https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/04/impe-d04.html > > _______________________________________________ > > Peace mailing list > > Peace at lists.chambana.net > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmedina67 at gmail.com Thu Dec 5 04:37:19 2019 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (kmedina67) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 22:37:19 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Trump's crime In-Reply-To: <33DEAC07-57DE-4846-B198-F9A1BC2E61E9@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: <5de88982.1c69fb81.3feda.5448@mx.google.com> ?Or maybe it is stealing from the public schools and giving to the private schools."President Trump is again proposing to cut billions of dollars from the Education Department, seeking to eliminate after-school programs, teacher training and grants for other school needs. But his budget proposal would create a $5?billion program to help children attend private schools" - Washington post :?https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/trump-seeks-to-slash-85-billion-from-education-department-budget/2019/03/11/69ab930e-441f-11e9-8aab-95b8d80a1e4f_story.html- Karen Medina"The really great make you feel that you, too, can become great" - Mark Twain -------- Original message --------From: "C. G. Estabrook via Peace" Date: 12/4/19 21:56 (GMT-06:00) To: peace-discuss at anti-war.net Cc: Peace Subject: [Peace] Trump's crime "Trump's real crime, the document makes clear, is drifting from the aggressive anti-Russian posture adopted by the Obama administration and supported by the dominant factions of the military/intelligence and foreign policy establishments.?https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/04/impe-d04.html_______________________________________________Peace mailing listPeace at lists.chambana.nethttps://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 5 15:34:48 2019 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 07:34:48 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for Dec. 7 demo In-Reply-To: <193FCA6F-914C-4F8C-84A3-CD9828990BD9@newsfromneptune.com> References: <193FCA6F-914C-4F8C-84A3-CD9828990BD9@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: I?m sorry to continue this discussion but it needs to be said. Discussing the in?s and outs of who and what is fine, on the AOTA tv/U-tube program, in fact it?s extremely important to enlighten those who assume it?s the guy in the WH. It was AOTA and you as well as recommended books, from whom I became aware of those responsible for US wars of imperialism, as we would focus on cause, sources of information, cui bono and always digging beneath the surface. Flyers for demonstrations should deal with war, the wars being conducted by our government. All the data and accusations related to who did what and when, pitting one administration against another is unnecessary and creates a flyer people likely won?t read. If they did we would have more people out there supporting us when demonstrating. I suggest a flyer truly dedicated to anti-war, be non partisan. There is absolutely no reason to refer to Trump, his impeachment, Obama or any other President or our domestic politics. Other well known national anti-war groups such as ANSWER, or the UNAC, etc. generally don?t talk about impeachment or focus on the front men in the WH, giving the impression if we only had the right person in the WH all would change. They focus on the wars of the USG, that the American people are being held responsible for committing if we don?t rise up and oppose them, byway of mass action. As stated using articles such as that by Chris Hedges to prove your point, that Trump is just a symptom not the disease as in weekly articles, interviews, discussions or FB is fine and important. On flyers attempting to engage people in conversation or action, in a divided nation, serves no purpose and continues the ?distract and divide? strategy being implemented by the Deep, or as Brian Becker of ANSWER refers to it, Perpetual State. Please see below my response to Carl?s comments defending his position and that of Trump when he says people involved with AWARE don?t support Trump, as if I was accusing AWARE members, of supporting Trump when I critiqued the original flyer on the AWARE FB page: Karen Aram You?re quite right, no one associated with AWARE is interested in supporting Trump, other than you. I'm sorry Carl, you can deny it but others with AWARE and on the Peace List have had the same complaint as I. The by Chris Hedges is a good one, going into detail, and clarifying the issues you mention, without defending Trump. Your revised flyer is much better than previous, mentioning our current wars under the Trump Administration. However, you still give Trump a pass with your "the Deep State, made him do it." I'm glad you're uncloaking the powers behind the throne, responsible for US foreign policy, which by extension affects US domestic policies, but just mentioning it as an excuse for Trump, is bypassing the issue. The same argument some members of Aware made for Obama, which you and I, at the time refused to accept. It's true the Deep State makes them do it, all of them and everyone who is elected to the WH, becomes a puppet for the Deep State. DS is defined as the Pentagon, CIA, State Dept., Think Tanks, as well as the CFR, and appointed advisors, or as Eisenhower warned, "the military industrial complex." They all know it, when they are candidates, and accept money from major corporations who owns them. Only Trump has the hubris to think he can do as he pleases. Trump is no anti- war President, but he does know the consequences of war with nuclear armed nations such as Russia, and N.Korea maybe good for the arms industry, but not for real estate or developers, or those businesses he represents. Vulnerable nations like Venezuela, Bolivia, Mexico, Nicaragua are a different story, and his sanctions on Iran are war. > On Dec 3, 2019, at 18:49, C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: > > [Flyer to be distributed at AWARE's regular monthly anti-war demonstration Saturday 7 December 2-4pm at the Susan B. Anthony Memorial Fountain, intersection of Main & Neil in Champaign] > ===================================================================================================== > ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the U.S. political establishment?s way of distracting you from America?s war-making around the world > > The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how terrible U.S. government war-making is - most recently in Venezuela and Bolivia. > > And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump administration?s policy seems little different from that of the Obama administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to end the Obama-Clinton wars. > > President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush administration (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight (attacking Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well) and became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two terms. Not even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln (Civil War) did that. > > As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really good at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.? > > While ?covering sin with smooth names,? Obama continued America?s longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of Eurasia, for fear that it would interfere with the U.S. elite?s economic exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. > > Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it - in part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic development of Russia and China. > > Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million people in wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) designed to destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained as the only major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 million people in defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a half million people.) > > That is why today international polls show that the U.S. is the most feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.? > > With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president and government > (a) to close the thousand U.S. military bases on foreign soil (most encircling Russia and China), > (b) to bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and > (c) to provide social supports - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made poorer by generations of our government?s wars. > ~~~ > In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in Congress-- > ~ Senator Dick Durbin: > > ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: > ~ Representative Rodney Davis: > ~~~ > This flyer is produced by members & friends of the ?Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort?; see on Facebook. > The TV program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is on Urbana Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube). > > ### > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuartnlevy at gmail.com Thu Dec 5 16:02:16 2019 From: stuartnlevy at gmail.com (Stuart Levy) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 10:02:16 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] fact-checking the claimed manipulation in Bolivia's election -- was Re: Fwd: Sen. Duckworth: Responding to your message In-Reply-To: <212395296.3849378.1575554829917@mail.yahoo.com> References: <378931045.3746308.1575550423244.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <378931045.3746308.1575550423244@mail.yahoo.com> <1176103795.3903214.1575554723749@mail.yahoo.com> <212395296.3849378.1575554829917@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3cc8bb41-3b49-73ba-1ffb-64311242eee9@gmail.com> Mark Weisbrot of CEPR responded to both of the check-able points. There were two counts, a "quick count" and a slower, official one.?? They did stop announcing the "quick count", but Weisbrot points out that this is not at all unreasonable, and further that there wasn't even the claimed sudden discontinuity in the lead that Morales held as the vote counting went on. He further notes that the OAS didn't present specific evidence of the claimed manipulation.?? The OAS report tries to argue that the distribution of late-arriving votes, which pushed Morales' lead over 10%, looked too different from earlier ones and therefore were suspect.?? But Weisbrot calls this out as nonsense: the demographics are very different in the rural areas where votes take longer to come in, and in those areas Morales' support has traditionally been stronger - something the OAS could have seen as well as he can. ??? http://cepr.net/publications/op-eds-columns/the-organization-of-american-states-has-deceived-the-public-terribly-on-the-bolivian-election And then there's Gregory Shupak's writeup for FAIR about US media complicity in not seeing the coup as a coup (which refers to Weisbrot among others): ?? https://fair.org/home/unpacking-media-propaganda-about-bolivias-election/ On 12/5/19 8:07 AM, Mildred O'brien via Peace wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mildred O'brien > To: peace-discuss > Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2019 8:05 am > Subject: Re: Sen. Duckworth: Responding to your message > > > > This reply (bold added by me) from T.D. needs to be fact-checked. > > > mo'b > > -----Original Message----- > From: Senator Tammy Duckworth > To: moboct1 > Sent: Wed, Dec 4, 2019 1:04 pm > Subject: Responding to your message > > ?? > > ? > > Dear Neighbor, > > Thank you for contacting me about protests in Bolivia following the > contested 2019 presidential election. I appreciate you taking the time > to make me aware of your concerns on this important matter. > > On October 20, 2019, voters across Bolivia went to the polls to elect > members of the legislature and a president. *During the tabulation of > votes, election officials suddenly stopped announcing results for > nearly 24 hours without an explanation before declaring incumbent > president Evo Morales the winner. *Following this announcement, > violent protests erupted across the country as opposition parties > claimed that the election results were illegitimate and that election > officials had acted in bad faith to benefit Morales. > > Amid the controversy, the Organization of American States conducted an > audit that found *clear manipulation in the election, including > widespread data manipulation and altered and forged records.* > Following the publication of this study, the commander of Bolivia?s > armed forces and the national police chief called for Morales? > resignation in an attempt to stem the violent outbursts across the > country. Morales resigned from his post on November 10, 2019 and his > since found asylum in Mexico, while second senate vice president > Jeanine A?ez Ch?vez has stepped into the presidency in an acting > capacity until new elections can be held. > > I am extremely concerned over the growing instability and violence in > Bolivia and the potential for it to deteriorate even further. As the > situation fluctuates day-to-day, I fear for the citizens who are being > harmed as collateral damage. There must be respect for the rule of > law, fair and transparent elections and the right to peacefully > assemble. Rest assured, I will continue to closely monitor the > situation in Bolivia and will keep your thoughts in mind if the > subject comes up before the Senate. > > Thank you again for contacting me on this important issue. If you > would like more information on my work in the Senate, please visit my > website at www.duckworth.senate.gov. You can access my voting record > and see what I am doing to address today?s most important issues. I > hope that you will continue to share your views and opinions with me > and let me know whenever I may be of assistance to you. > > > Sincerely, > > > Tammy Duckworth > United States Senator > > Subscribe to our enewsletter > > > /Please do not reply to this email. The mailbox is unattended. > To share your thoughts, please visit my webpage. > / > > ? > > ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Thu Dec 5 18:41:24 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 12:41:24 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for Dec. 7 demo In-Reply-To: References: <193FCA6F-914C-4F8C-84A3-CD9828990BD9@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: Karen-- Produce what you see as an appropriate anti-war flyer for the AWARE demo, if you wish. I?ll distribute the one below, which incorporates some of your suggestions. ?CGE > On Dec 5, 2019, at 9:34 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: > > I?m sorry to continue this discussion but it needs to be said. Discussing the in?s and outs of who and what is fine, on the AOTA tv/U-tube program, in fact it?s extremely important to enlighten those who assume it?s the guy in the WH. It was AOTA and you as well as recommended books, from whom I became aware of those responsible for US wars of imperialism, as we would focus on cause, sources of information, cui bono and always digging beneath the surface. > > Flyers for demonstrations should deal with war, the wars being conducted by our government. All the data and accusations related to who did what and when, pitting one administration against another is unnecessary and creates a flyer people likely won?t read. If they did we would have more people out there supporting us when demonstrating. > > I suggest a flyer truly dedicated to anti-war, be non partisan. There is absolutely no reason to refer to Trump, his impeachment, Obama or any other President or our domestic politics. Other well known national anti-war groups such as ANSWER, or the UNAC, etc. generally don?t talk about impeachment or focus on the front men in the WH, giving the impression if we only had the right person in the WH all would change. They focus on the wars of the USG, that the American people are being held responsible for committing if we don?t rise up and oppose them, byway of mass action. > > As stated using articles such as that by Chris Hedges to prove your point, that Trump is just a symptom not the disease as in weekly articles, interviews, discussions or FB is fine and important. On flyers attempting to engage people in conversation or action, in a divided nation, serves no purpose and continues the ?distract and divide? strategy being implemented by the Deep, or as Brian Becker of ANSWER refers to it, Perpetual State. > > Please see below my response to Carl?s comments defending his position and that of Trump when he says people involved with AWARE don?t support Trump, as if I was accusing AWARE members, of supporting Trump when I critiqued the original flyer on the AWARE FB page: > > > ? > Karen Aram You?re quite right, no one associated with AWARE is interested in supporting Trump, other than you. I'm sorry Carl, you can deny it but others with AWARE and on the Peace List have had the same complaint as I. The by Chris Hedges is a good one, going into detail, and clarifying the issues you mention, without defending Trump. Your revised flyer is much better than previous, mentioning our current wars under the Trump Administration. However, you still give Trump a pass with your "the Deep State, made him do it." I'm glad you're uncloaking the powers behind the throne, responsible for US foreign policy, which by extension affects US domestic policies, but just mentioning it as an excuse for Trump, is bypassing the issue. The same argument some members of Aware made for Obama, which you and I, at the time refused to accept. It's true the Deep State makes them do it, all of them and everyone who is elected to the WH, becomes a puppet for the Deep State. DS is defined as the Pentagon, CIA, State Dept., Think Tanks, as well as the CFR, and appointed advisors, or as Eisenhower warned, "the military industrial complex." They all know it, when they are candidates, and accept money from major corporations who owns them. Only Trump has the hubris to think he can do as he pleases. Trump is no anti- war President, but he does know the consequences of war with nuclear armed nations such as Russia, and N.Korea maybe good for the arms industry, but not for real estate or developers, or those businesses he represents. Vulnerable nations like Venezuela, Bolivia, Mexico, Nicaragua are a different story, and his sanctions on Iran are war. > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Dec 3, 2019, at 18:49, C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: >> >> [Flyer to be distributed at AWARE's regular monthly anti-war demonstration Saturday 7 December 2-4pm at the Susan B. Anthony Memorial Fountain, intersection of Main & Neil in Champaign] >> ===================================================================================================== >> ?IMPEACH TRUMP!? is the U.S. political establishment?s way of distracting you from America?s war-making around the world >> >> The U.S. media (owned by large corporations) continue to tell us how terrible President Trump is, but that is a way to avoid talking about how terrible U.S. government war-making is - most recently in Venezuela and Bolivia. >> >> And in regard to killing people around the world, the Trump administration?s policy seems little different from that of the Obama administration - for all of President Trump?s assertions that he wants to end the Obama-Clinton wars. >> >> President Obama inherited two shameful wars from the Bush administration (in Afghanistan and Iraq): he increased the number to eight (attacking Libya, Pakistan, the Philippines, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen as well) and became the first U.S. president ever to be at war throughout two terms. Not even presidents Roosevelt (WWII), Wilson (WWI), or Lincoln (Civil War) did that. >> >> As Barack Obama said in 2012, after ordering drone assassinations of American citizens, including minors (purposely), ?Turns out I?m really good at killing people; didn?t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.? >> >> While ?covering sin with smooth names,? Obama continued America?s longest-standing foreign policy - attempting to prevent the integration of Eurasia, for fear that it would interfere with the U.S. elite?s economic exploitation of the rest of the world - by American war provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the South China Sea. >> >> Trump, after criticizing Obama?s war-making, has largely continued it - in part at least because he is under pressure from the ?deep state? to maintain the traditional US foreign policy of retarding the economic development of Russia and China. >> >> Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has killed more than 20 million people in wars (Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, Mideast, and elsewhere) designed to destroy challenges to the economic hegemony the U.S. obtained as the only major country largely undamaged by WWII. (Russia lost 27 million people in defeating Naziism; U.S. losses in WWII totaled about a half million people.) >> >> That is why today international polls show that the U.S. is the most feared government in the world - not China, Russia, Iran, or Israel. The rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. government remains what Martin Luther King called it long ago: ?the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.? >> >> With other peace groups around the world, we call upon our president and government >> (a) to close the thousand U.S. military bases on foreign soil (most encircling Russia and China), >> (b) to bring all U.S. troops (and weapons) home, and >> (c) to provide social supports - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - for Americans, who have been made poorer by generations of our government?s wars. >> ~~~ >> In Illinois, send your opinion to your local representatives in Congress-- >> ~ Senator Dick Durbin: >> ~ Sen. Tammy Duckworth: >> ~ Representative Rodney Davis: >> ~~~ >> This flyer is produced by members & friends of the ?Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort?; see on Facebook. >> The TV program ?AWARE on the Air,? a local discussion of war news, is on Urbana Public Television, Tuesdays at 10pm (& available on YouTube). >> >> ### >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace From carl at newsfromneptune.com Thu Dec 5 19:55:22 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 13:55:22 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Impeachment <= neocon foreign policy Message-ID: https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/12/the-delusions-of-the-impeachment-witnesses-point-to-a-larger-problem.html From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Dec 5 21:19:10 2019 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 13:19:10 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The World Labour Hour this Saturday Message-ID: Don?t miss The World Labor Hour www.wrfu.net every Saturday morning from 11 AM ? 1 PM Central Time, with David Johnson, Gus Wood & Bill Gorrell. This weeks call in guest will be Chris Blankenhorn of the Young Eco Socialists of the Green Party. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r-szoke at illinois.edu Thu Dec 5 23:11:30 2019 From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 23:11:30 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Wealth gap Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Wealth gap.rtfd.zip Type: application/zip Size: 104407 bytes Desc: Wealth gap.rtfd.zip URL: From r-szoke at illinois.edu Thu Dec 5 23:11:30 2019 From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 23:11:30 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Wealth gap Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Wealth gap.rtfd.zip Type: application/zip Size: 104407 bytes Desc: Wealth gap.rtfd.zip URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Thu Dec 5 23:25:49 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 17:25:49 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda Message-ID: [Mary Ann Caton] 'There is much to highlight in Bill Martin's commentary here, so try this one on for size: "Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda..." Here's the rest of what he had to say: ?This article [above], from Truthout.org, is the kind of nonsense that has become exceedingly tiresome, but also very offensive, because it just plays around with terms such as genocide, fascist, and Nazi. ?The basis for the author?s argument is Trump?s tweet saying that Baltimore is a ?disgusting, rat and rodent infested mess? and ?no human would want to live there.? The author, Nicholas Powers, turns this into Trump?s supposedly using a ?rhetoric of filth? that is aimed at those same human beings. Except of course Trump doesn?t say anything like that. Powers quotes with approval Joy Behar, as a ?Jewish voice? here (which is typical bullshit Identity Politics, as it would be easy enough to find numerous Jewish voices who would disagree with her) transposing what Trump says about rats to the Nazi use of the term ?vermin? to refer to Jews. ?Again, Trump has said nothing like that. ?There?s no mention in this article about ?laying the groundwork for genocide? of Hillary Clinton?s ?basket of deplorables? comment, applied to ?half of Trump?s supporter?s,? which would amount to about thirty-one million people or so. This is conjecture on my part, but I feel that I am on solid ground: those who talk in the way that Powers does only disagree with HRC on the ?half? part. They are fine with statements of the ?dreaming of a white genocide?-sort, as long as they can get out in front of them first with some strategic virtue-signaling. Of course, the ones signaling the loudest are themselves white males, though ?educated.? But, hey, that?s a class thing, and any good liberal and leftist these days knows that talking about class is just another form of racism. ?Despite this nonsense being tiresome, not really worth paying attention to (obviously I?m engaging in a performative contradiction here), one wants to say to this author, and to Adam Schiff, etc., ?Keep talking, assh*les.? It?s obvious by now that no amount of self-exposure is going to have much effect on hardened Trump-haters, they?ll just double-down. A third of this is believing that most ordinary people are stupid, racist, sexist, fascists, a third is posing as some sort of ?Resistance? and the self-satisfaction that brings, and a third is in fear of not being acceptable to their celebrity icons of political correctness and therefore susceptible to being called out. ?(Hillary doubled down on her remark about deplorables, numerous times. The remark was not a ?gaff? or faux-pas, it was said with the deliberate aim of drawing a line. But this isn?t about Hillary?except in the case that she becomes the 2020 Democratic nominee, which is not at all out of the realm of possibility*?it is about all of the ordinary-people Democrats who go along with this crap, and who view other ordinary people through the lens of this line.) ?Hopefully there are some others who will see once and for all what a load of crap the Democrats and their ?Left? allies are. Significantly, the biggest move in this direction thus far is from African-Americans who have had it with being patronized and played for chumps. ?One thing that was useful about seeing this article posted on a liberal friend?s page is that it did make things a little more clear, to me at least, regarding the difference between liberals and the Left. ?The Left tries to stay on message with charging that Trump is a fascist, a Nazi, like Hitler. The liberals say this stuff too, but also they are outraged as well by Trump?s Rocky Balboa pose (thankfully, the MSM was quick to expose that dangerous ruse!), the hateful serving of fast food to the champion Clemson football team (whose players such liberals also hate, but whatever), etc. ?The liberals are quick to claim that Trump supporters are not only fascist, but also stupid. The Left sometimes traffics in this language of stupidity, but in general instead claims that the sort of people who support Trump are ignorant. ?What, though, is the difference that makes a difference between anti-Trump liberals and anti-Trump leftists, if they seem fine in making common cause? ?Adam Schiff accuses Trump of ?not respecting our intelligence agencies.? It used to be that was an important aspect of the Left, not only not respecting the CIA and other parts of the ?intelligence community,? but also pulling the curtain back on them, exposing them, demonstrating why they are a horrible thing. Now we are in an upside-down world where liberals and the left go along with this stuff for the sake of impeachment, and Trump is the one pulling the curtain back. ?Nothing better can be expected from the liberal or ?progressive? ?blue no matter who?-crowd. They?re openly down with the CIA, NSC, etc. But if you?re a ?leftist? or some other supposedly ?radical? opponent of Trump, part of the ?Resistance,? and you?re supporting this impeachment nonsense, this would be a good time to do some hard thinking.** *(Who will be the 2020 Democratic nominee? I?m not a gambler, but it wouldn?t be that wild of a proposition to put some money on Michelle Obama.) **(In stark terms, just to be clear ? Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda?and this assertion does not depend on coming up with a ?precise definition? of the Deep State. Certainly, from ordinary people, whether Democrats, leftists, etc., ?support for impeachment? doesn?t really mean much, since no one is asking you anyway. Your role is cheerleader for the system. Really, I think things need to be taken further: Calling out Adam Schiff and his cohort, who are fronting for the CIA and the ?intelligence community? is what is needed, which means opposition to this impeachment nonsense. If there was anything like a ?true Left? today, one that embodied the spirit of the Sixties Left, but under very different conditions?these conditions, unfortunately, having knocked the current Left for a crazy and terrible loop, to put things politely, this exposure and opposition to the impeachment Schiff-show is what would be happening.) ?[Your comments are welcome, but comments about 1) my supposed obsession with Hillary (no, I?m more obsessed with liberal and left affirmation of the deplorables remark?and another important term here is ?rural?); 2) the demand to have precise definitions of things (I have been inspired/provoked by such demands to write a glossary for the book I am presently completing, but there is plenty enough to go on in the CounterPunch*** articles already published) before ?discussion? can continue (I?m not going to get into some purely semantic exercise to let people get away with siding with the CIA, okay? ?so just deal with that; and, as far as the hardened Trump-haters are concerned, who view everything through the lens of ?Trump must go, regardless of the shortcomings of the Democrats,? I?m not interested in meeting your demands in any case?that would be both impossible and pointless); 3) my ?just repeating GOP talking points,? or comments that are just name-calling?I won?t respond to such comments, and will probably delete them, because they are unhelpful and I?ve already given enough play to such things; the exception is if the comment works as good self-exposure (as they say in football, an ?own-goal?) of the person who makes the comment.] ***(I will write a separate post regarding this when I have the situation sorted, but some reading this may be interested in know that I?ve now been deplatformed by CounterPunch. I knew that I would go too far at some point, given the general trend there lately, as well-represented by a recent article by Andrew Levine (whose work, especially on Rousseau, Kant, Marx, Rawls, analytical Marxism, and Althusser, I have admired for many years), ?Get Trump First, But Then ?? (Nov. 15). I?m not angry, I will remain grateful to Jeffrey St. Clair for going as far as he has with me, though I?m a little sad and disappointed, especially because I hoped to wrap up my Trump series at CounterPunch and then put it all together in a book. Now I?ll need to do this somewhere else, I?ll let you know where?I had two articles in the pipeline, one on the impeachment nonsense, the other on the coup in Bolivia, I hope to have them out soon.)? ~ Bill Martin From jbw292002 at gmail.com Fri Dec 6 03:27:00 2019 From: jbw292002 at gmail.com (John W.) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 21:27:00 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 5:26 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace < peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: < > https://truthout.org/articles/when-trump-calls-people-filth-hes-laying-groundwork-for-genocide/ > > > > [Mary Ann Caton] 'There is much to highlight in Bill Martin's commentary > here, so try this one on for size: "Support for the impeachment nonsense is > support for the CIA/Deep State agenda..." Here's the rest of what he had to > say: > > ?This article [above], from Truthout.org, is the kind of nonsense that has > become exceedingly tiresome, but also very offensive, because it just plays > around with terms such as genocide, fascist, and Nazi. > > ?The basis for the author?s argument is Trump?s tweet saying that > Baltimore is a ?disgusting, rat and rodent infested mess? and ?no human > would want to live there.? The author, Nicholas Powers, turns this into > Trump?s supposedly using a ?rhetoric of filth? that is aimed at those same > human beings. Except of course Trump doesn?t say anything like that. Powers > quotes with approval Joy Behar, as a ?Jewish voice? here (which is typical > bullshit Identity Politics, as it would be easy enough to find numerous > Jewish voices who would disagree with her) transposing what Trump says > about rats to the Nazi use of the term ?vermin? to refer to Jews. > > ?Again, Trump has said nothing like that. > No, the quoted tweets are absolutely correct. And of course tRump wasn't talking about Jews. He was talking about Negroes. He was pissed off at Elijah Cummings, and he said (tweeted) the first juvenile thing that popped into his benighted, hate-filled mind, as he always does. Everyone with half a brain recognized it as an extremely thinly-veiled racial slur. You can dismiss it as 'identity politics' if you want to. In any event, it's extremely bad politics, and as "leadership" it's reprehensible on a number of levels. It is indeed a "rhetoric of filth", which tRump is famous for. ?There?s no mention in this article about ?laying the groundwork for > genocide? of Hillary Clinton?s ?basket of deplorables? comment, applied to > ?half of Trump?s supporter?s,? which would amount to about thirty-one > million people or so. This is conjecture on my part, but I feel that I am > on solid ground: those who talk in the way that Powers does only disagree > with HRC on the ?half? part. They are fine with statements of the ?dreaming > of a white genocide?-sort, as long as they can get out in front of them > first with some strategic virtue-signaling. Of course, the ones signaling > the loudest are themselves white males, though ?educated.? But, hey, that?s > a class thing, and any good liberal and leftist these days knows that > talking about class is just another form of racism. > > ?Despite this nonsense being tiresome, not really worth paying attention > to (obviously I?m engaging in a performative contradiction here), one wants > to say to this author, and to Adam Schiff, etc., ?Keep talking, assh*les.? > It?s obvious by now that no amount of self-exposure is going to have much > effect on hardened Trump-haters, they?ll just double-down. As will the tRump lovers. So what else is new? > A third of this is believing that most ordinary people are stupid, racist, > sexist, fascists, a third is posing as some sort of ?Resistance? and the > self-satisfaction that brings, and a third is in fear of not being > acceptable to their celebrity icons of political correctness and therefore > susceptible to being called out. > > ?(Hillary doubled down on her remark about deplorables, numerous times. > The remark was not a ?gaff? or faux-pas, it was said with the deliberate > aim of drawing a line. But this isn?t about Hillary?except in the case that > she becomes the 2020 Democratic nominee, which is not at all out of the > realm of possibility*?it is about all of the ordinary-people Democrats who > go along with this crap, and who view other ordinary people through the > lens of this line.) > > ?Hopefully there are some others who will see once and for all what a load > of crap the Democrats and their ?Left? allies are. Significantly, the > biggest move in this direction thus far is from African-Americans who have > had it with being patronized and played for chumps. > All I'm hearing so far is this Bill Martin doing a whole bunch of name-calling. Who in hell is he? Does he play in the same schoolyard where tRump still shoots marbles? I'm not hearing a damned thing that's even remotely intelligent so far. > ?One thing that was useful about seeing this article posted on a liberal > friend?s page is that it did make things a little more clear, to me at > least, regarding the difference between liberals and the Left. > > ?The Left tries to stay on message with charging that Trump is a fascist, > a Nazi, like Hitler. > The liberals say this stuff too, but also they are outraged as well by > Trump?s Rocky Balboa pose (thankfully, the MSM was quick to expose that > dangerous ruse!), the hateful serving of fast food to the champion Clemson > football team (whose players such liberals also hate, but whatever), etc. > Agreed, those things are pretty trivial. But they're all part of the tRump manufactured persona, designed to appeal to his 'base' who are indeed deplorables and foolishly lap the stuff up while tRump, in reality, spends millions of our taxpayer dollars on golf outings and fancy black tie dinners at Mar-a-La-Go. Really not unlike Bruce Rauner appearing in flannel shirts in all of his TV ads when he was running for governor of Illinois, though Rauner was somewhat more dignified about it. > ?The liberals are quick to claim that Trump supporters are not only > fascist, but also stupid. The Left sometimes traffics in this language of > stupidity, but in general instead claims that the sort of people who > support Trump are ignorant. > > ?What, though, is the difference that makes a difference between > anti-Trump liberals and anti-Trump leftists, if they seem fine in making > common cause? > > ?Adam Schiff accuses Trump of ?not respecting our intelligence agencies.? > It used to be that was an important aspect of the Left, not only not > respecting the CIA and other parts of the ?intelligence community,? but > also pulling the curtain back on them, exposing them, demonstrating why > they are a horrible thing. Now we are in an upside-down world where > liberals and the left go along with this stuff for the sake of impeachment, > and Trump is the one pulling the curtain back. > I have noticed this and find it interesting, though of course tRump himself isn't pulling the curtain back on shit, but merely deflecting and obfuscating and 'counter-punching' every waking moment But you know, the Real World where some of us live is not strictly Manichean. The obvious synthesis of this apparent contradiction or irony is that there is a difference between intelligence-gathering and the USE or MISUSE of the intelligence gathered, which is a matter of political policy. I suspect that most of the intelligence-gathering is pretty accurate, done by career professionals with no particular allegiance to political party. These are they whom Adam Schiff lauds. But then you have the political appointees like Mike Pompeo (former head of the CIA, not coincidentally), or like Rumsfeld/Powell of 15 years ago, or like the cabal in power during the Viet Nam war. In making their decisions, they act as often as not AGAINST the recommendations of their intelligence-gathering staff, or else they manufacture evidence to justify their misdeeds, and of course create the global chaos that we're all familiar with. This is who the 'Left' is railing against when they protest the actions of the CIA, for example - the POLITICAL POLICIES, not the intelligence gathering. Pay attention, Carl. There'll be a quiz on this later in the semester. > ?Nothing better can be expected from the liberal or ?progressive? ?blue no > matter who?-crowd. They?re openly down with the CIA, NSC, etc. But if > you?re a ?leftist? or some other supposedly ?radical? opponent of Trump, > part of the ?Resistance,? and you?re supporting this impeachment nonsense, > this would be a good time to do some hard thinking.** > Blah blah blah. More name calling. Bill Martin, whoever he is, doesn't like 'The Left'. We get that. I don't like Bill Martin. He's an idiot. > *(Who will be the 2020 Democratic nominee? I?m not a gambler, but it > wouldn?t be that wild of a proposition to put some money on Michelle Obama.) > > **(In stark terms, just to be clear ? Support for the impeachment nonsense > is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda?and this assertion does not depend > on coming up with a ?precise definition? of the Deep State. Certainly, from > ordinary people, whether Democrats, leftists, etc., ?support for > impeachment? doesn?t really mean much, since no one is asking you anyway. > Your role is cheerleader for the system. Really, I think things need to be > taken further: Calling out Adam Schiff and his cohort, who are fronting for > the CIA and the ?intelligence community? is what is needed, which means > opposition to this impeachment nonsense. If there was anything like a ?true > Left? today, one that embodied the spirit of the Sixties Left, but under > very different conditions?these conditions, unfortunately, having knocked > the current Left for a crazy and terrible loop, to put things politely, > this exposure and opposition to the impeachment Schiff-show is what would > be happening.) > Bullshit. tRump isn't being impeached because he's a reformer who is courageously challenging the Deep State. What a joke. He's being impeached because he has flouted the Constitution in every way imaginable. He's an amoral, narcissistic coprophage who has alienated practically every one of our allies, fractured the country domestically, assaulted the environment, and brought calumny on the United States. Sure, this telephone call with the Ukrainian leader is only a hook on which to hang the hat of impeachment, and we know that the Republican Senate isn't going to convict him anyway. But if there has ever been a President in our nation's history who has deserved to be impeached, this guy is it. Otherwise we may as well just throw the Constitution completely out the window and let the fascists run things the way they see fit. And by the way, Gentle Readers.....We've had the Deep State for quite a long time now, as Carl is always so faithful to point out, and I feel safe in saying that we will always have the Deep State. We've had war since there were human beings on the planet. tRump is not going to put an end to either of those things. It's not even in his consciousness. So why keep yammering about it? Can you really not find anything more productive to talk about and protest and work toward? Maybe something actually attainable? > ?[Your comments are welcome, but comments about 1) my supposed obsession > with Hillary (no, I?m more obsessed with liberal and left affirmation of > the deplorables remark?and another important term here is ?rural?); 2) the > demand to have precise definitions of things (I have been inspired/provoked > by such demands to write a glossary for the book I am presently completing, > but there is plenty enough to go on in the CounterPunch*** articles already > published) before ?discussion? can continue (I?m not going to get into some > purely semantic exercise to let people get away with siding with the CIA, > okay? ?so just deal with that; and, as far as the hardened Trump-haters are > concerned, who view everything through the lens of ?Trump must go, > regardless of the shortcomings of the Democrats,? I?m not interested in > meeting your demands in any case?that would be both impossible and > pointless); 3) my ?just repeating GOP talking points,? or comments that are > just name-calling?I won?t respond to such comments, and will probably > delete them, because they are unhelpful and I?ve already given enough play > to such things; the exception is if the comment works as good self-exposure > (as they say in football, an ?own-goal?) of the person who makes the > comment.] > > ***(I will write a separate post regarding this when I have the situation > sorted, but some reading this may be interested in know that I?ve now been > deplatformed by CounterPunch. I knew that I would go too far at some point, > given the general trend there lately, as well-represented by a recent > article by Andrew Levine (whose work, especially on Rousseau, Kant, Marx, > Rawls, analytical Marxism, and Althusser, I have admired for many years), > ?Get Trump First, But Then ?? (Nov. 15). I?m not angry, I will remain > grateful to Jeffrey St. Clair for going as far as he has with me, though > I?m a little sad and disappointed, especially because I hoped to wrap up my > Trump series at CounterPunch and then put it all together in a book. Now > I?ll need to do this somewhere else, I?ll let you know where?I had two > articles in the pipeline, one on the impeachment nonsense, the other on the > coup in Bolivia, I hope to have them out soon.)? > > ~ Bill Martin > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Fri Dec 6 05:19:50 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 23:19:50 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John-- Trump is being impeached because he?s the first major party candidate in 40 years to attack the neocon (more war) and neolib (more austerity) policies of all recent administrations. Altho? in office he's largely adopted those policies, the permanent government are afraid he?ll act on his attacks (e.g., by withdrawing from Afghanistan and Syria). Those attacks made him president by speaking for the growing populist wave of those who saw that Obama?s promises of prosperity weren?t fulfilled. Trump flipped six states that had gone for Obama in 2012 ? Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio and Florida ? in his upset victory over Clinton. And those states were lost by Obama voters who stayed home, rather than voting again for a Democrat nominee (Clinton). They'd seen no "hope and change.? So all Trump's opponents seem to have are schoolboy insults - nothing that speaks to the immiseration of the majority. The concentration of wealth in America continued - at an accelerating rate - in the Obama years., while wages remained flat - and Obama-Clinton war provocations of Russia and China increased. Since the establishment's neocon/neolib policies aren?t popular, they have only Trump?s personal failings to attack him on - which they are doing hysterically. So support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State/permanent government agenda - those policies of more war and more austerity: that?s what generates Trump's 'base.' Sanders of course speaks to those same quite real anxieties - which is why the permanent government can't allow him to be nominated: he?d win. Meanwhile, impeachment like Russiagate will continue, because it?s all the permanent government/liberals have: ORANGE MAN BAD! ?CGE > On Dec 5, 2019, at 9:27 PM, John W. wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 5:26 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: > > > > [Mary Ann Caton] 'There is much to highlight in Bill Martin's commentary here, so try this one on for size: "Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda..." Here's the rest of what he had to say: > > ?This article [above], from Truthout.org, is the kind of nonsense that has become exceedingly tiresome, but also very offensive, because it just plays around with terms such as genocide, fascist, and Nazi. > > ?The basis for the author?s argument is Trump?s tweet saying that Baltimore is a ?disgusting, rat and rodent infested mess? and ?no human would want to live there.? The author, Nicholas Powers, turns this into Trump?s supposedly using a ?rhetoric of filth? that is aimed at those same human beings. Except of course Trump doesn?t say anything like that. Powers quotes with approval Joy Behar, as a ?Jewish voice? here (which is typical bullshit Identity Politics, as it would be easy enough to find numerous Jewish voices who would disagree with her) transposing what Trump says about rats to the Nazi use of the term ?vermin? to refer to Jews. > > ?Again, Trump has said nothing like that. > > No, the quoted tweets are absolutely correct. And of course tRump wasn't talking about Jews. He was talking about Negroes. He was pissed off at Elijah Cummings, and he said (tweeted) the first juvenile thing that popped into his benighted, hate-filled mind, as he always does. Everyone with half a brain recognized it as an extremely thinly-veiled racial slur. You can dismiss it as 'identity politics' if you want to. In any event, it's extremely bad politics, and as "leadership" it's reprehensible on a number of levels. It is indeed a "rhetoric of filth", which tRump is famous for. > > > ?There?s no mention in this article about ?laying the groundwork for genocide? of Hillary Clinton?s ?basket of deplorables? comment, applied to ?half of Trump?s supporter?s,? which would amount to about thirty-one million people or so. This is conjecture on my part, but I feel that I am on solid ground: those who talk in the way that Powers does only disagree with HRC on the ?half? part. They are fine with statements of the ?dreaming of a white genocide?-sort, as long as they can get out in front of them first with some strategic virtue-signaling. Of course, the ones signaling the loudest are themselves white males, though ?educated.? But, hey, that?s a class thing, and any good liberal and leftist these days knows that talking about class is just another form of racism. > > ?Despite this nonsense being tiresome, not really worth paying attention to (obviously I?m engaging in a performative contradiction here), one wants to say to this author, and to Adam Schiff, etc., ?Keep talking, assh*les.? It?s obvious by now that no amount of self-exposure is going to have much effect on hardened Trump-haters, they?ll just double-down. > > As will the tRump lovers. So what else is new? > > > A third of this is believing that most ordinary people are stupid, racist, sexist, fascists, a third is posing as some sort of ?Resistance? and the self-satisfaction that brings, and a third is in fear of not being acceptable to their celebrity icons of political correctness and therefore susceptible to being called out. > > ?(Hillary doubled down on her remark about deplorables, numerous times. The remark was not a ?gaff? or faux-pas, it was said with the deliberate aim of drawing a line. But this isn?t about Hillary?except in the case that she becomes the 2020 Democratic nominee, which is not at all out of the realm of possibility*?it is about all of the ordinary-people Democrats who go along with this crap, and who view other ordinary people through the lens of this line.) > > ?Hopefully there are some others who will see once and for all what a load of crap the Democrats and their ?Left? allies are. Significantly, the biggest move in this direction thus far is from African-Americans who have had it with being patronized and played for chumps. > > All I'm hearing so far is this Bill Martin doing a whole bunch of name-calling. Who in hell is he? Does he play in the same schoolyard where tRump still shoots marbles? I'm not hearing a damned thing that's even remotely intelligent so far. > > > ?One thing that was useful about seeing this article posted on a liberal friend?s page is that it did make things a little more clear, to me at least, regarding the difference between liberals and the Left. > > ?The Left tries to stay on message with charging that Trump is a fascist, a Nazi, like Hitler. > The liberals say this stuff too, but also they are outraged as well by Trump?s Rocky Balboa pose (thankfully, the MSM was quick to expose that dangerous ruse!), the hateful serving of fast food to the champion Clemson football team (whose players such liberals also hate, but whatever), etc. > > Agreed, those things are pretty trivial. But they're all part of the tRump manufactured persona, designed to appeal to his 'base' who are indeed deplorables and foolishly lap the stuff up while tRump, in reality, spends millions of our taxpayer dollars on golf outings and fancy black tie dinners at Mar-a-La-Go. Really not unlike Bruce Rauner appearing in flannel shirts in all of his TV ads when he was running for governor of Illinois, though Rauner was somewhat more dignified about it. > > > ?The liberals are quick to claim that Trump supporters are not only fascist, but also stupid. The Left sometimes traffics in this language of stupidity, but in general instead claims that the sort of people who support Trump are ignorant. > > ?What, though, is the difference that makes a difference between anti-Trump liberals and anti-Trump leftists, if they seem fine in making common cause? > > ?Adam Schiff accuses Trump of ?not respecting our intelligence agencies.? It used to be that was an important aspect of the Left, not only not respecting the CIA and other parts of the ?intelligence community,? but also pulling the curtain back on them, exposing them, demonstrating why they are a horrible thing. Now we are in an upside-down world where liberals and the left go along with this stuff for the sake of impeachment, and Trump is the one pulling the curtain back. > > I have noticed this and find it interesting, though of course tRump himself isn't pulling the curtain back on shit, but merely deflecting and obfuscating and 'counter-punching' every waking moment But you know, the Real World where some of us live is not strictly Manichean. The obvious synthesis of this apparent contradiction or irony is that there is a difference between intelligence-gathering and the USE or MISUSE of the intelligence gathered, which is a matter of political policy. I suspect that most of the intelligence-gathering is pretty accurate, done by career professionals with no particular allegiance to political party. These are they whom Adam Schiff lauds. But then you have the political appointees like Mike Pompeo (former head of the CIA, not coincidentally), or like Rumsfeld/Powell of 15 years ago, or like the cabal in power during the Viet Nam war. In making their decisions, they act as often as not AGAINST the recommendations of their intelligence-gathering staff, or else they manufacture evidence to justify their misdeeds, and of course create the global chaos that we're all familiar with. This is who the 'Left' is railing against when they protest the actions of the CIA, for example - the POLITICAL POLICIES, not the intelligence gathering. > > Pay attention, Carl. There'll be a quiz on this later in the semester. > > > ?Nothing better can be expected from the liberal or ?progressive? ?blue no matter who?-crowd. They?re openly down with the CIA, NSC, etc. But if you?re a ?leftist? or some other supposedly ?radical? opponent of Trump, part of the ?Resistance,? and you?re supporting this impeachment nonsense, this would be a good time to do some hard thinking.** > > Blah blah blah. More name calling. Bill Martin, whoever he is, doesn't like 'The Left'. We get that. I don't like Bill Martin. He's an idiot. > > > *(Who will be the 2020 Democratic nominee? I?m not a gambler, but it wouldn?t be that wild of a proposition to put some money on Michelle Obama.) > > **(In stark terms, just to be clear ? Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda?and this assertion does not depend on coming up with a ?precise definition? of the Deep State. Certainly, from ordinary people, whether Democrats, leftists, etc., ?support for impeachment? doesn?t really mean much, since no one is asking you anyway. Your role is cheerleader for the system. Really, I think things need to be taken further: Calling out Adam Schiff and his cohort, who are fronting for the CIA and the ?intelligence community? is what is needed, which means opposition to this impeachment nonsense. If there was anything like a ?true Left? today, one that embodied the spirit of the Sixties Left, but under very different conditions?these conditions, unfortunately, having knocked the current Left for a crazy and terrible loop, to put things politely, this exposure and opposition to the impeachment Schiff-show is what would be happening.) > > Bullshit. tRump isn't being impeached because he's a reformer who is courageously challenging the Deep State. What a joke. He's being impeached because he has flouted the Constitution in every way imaginable. He's an amoral, narcissistic coprophage who has alienated practically every one of our allies, fractured the country domestically, assaulted the environment, and brought calumny on the United States. Sure, this telephone call with the Ukrainian leader is only a hook on which to hang the hat of impeachment, and we know that the Republican Senate isn't going to convict him anyway. But if there has ever been a President in our nation's history who has deserved to be impeached, this guy is it. Otherwise we may as well just throw the Constitution completely out the window and let the fascists run things the way they see fit. > > And by the way, Gentle Readers.....We've had the Deep State for quite a long time now, as Carl is always so faithful to point out, and I feel safe in saying that we will always have the Deep State. We've had war since there were human beings on the planet. tRump is not going to put an end to either of those things. It's not even in his consciousness. So why keep yammering about it? Can you really not find anything more productive to talk about and protest and work toward? Maybe something actually attainable? > > > ?[Your comments are welcome, but comments about 1) my supposed obsession with Hillary (no, I?m more obsessed with liberal and left affirmation of the deplorables remark?and another important term here is ?rural?); 2) the demand to have precise definitions of things (I have been inspired/provoked by such demands to write a glossary for the book I am presently completing, but there is plenty enough to go on in the CounterPunch*** articles already published) before ?discussion? can continue (I?m not going to get into some purely semantic exercise to let people get away with siding with the CIA, okay? ?so just deal with that; and, as far as the hardened Trump-haters are concerned, who view everything through the lens of ?Trump must go, regardless of the shortcomings of the Democrats,? I?m not interested in meeting your demands in any case?that would be both impossible and pointless); 3) my ?just repeating GOP talking points,? or comments that are just name-calling?I won?t respond to such comments, and will probably delete them, because they are unhelpful and I?ve already given enough play to such things; the exception is if the comment works as good self-exposure (as they say in football, an ?own-goal?) of the person who makes the comment.] > > ***(I will write a separate post regarding this when I have the situation sorted, but some reading this may be interested in know that I?ve now been deplatformed by CounterPunch. I knew that I would go too far at some point, given the general trend there lately, as well-represented by a recent article by Andrew Levine (whose work, especially on Rousseau, Kant, Marx, Rawls, analytical Marxism, and Althusser, I have admired for many years), ?Get Trump First, But Then ?? (Nov. 15). I?m not angry, I will remain grateful to Jeffrey St. Clair for going as far as he has with me, though I?m a little sad and disappointed, especially because I hoped to wrap up my Trump series at CounterPunch and then put it all together in a book. Now I?ll need to do this somewhere else, I?ll let you know where?I had two articles in the pipeline, one on the impeachment nonsense, the other on the coup in Bolivia, I hope to have them out soon.)? > > ~ Bill Martin > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Fri Dec 6 12:32:38 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 06:32:38 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Wealth gap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003801d5ac31$3f7a6ae0$be6f40a0$@comcast.net> Ron, The file you sent does not open. David J. From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Szoke, Ron via Peace-discuss Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2019 5:12 PM To: peace-discuss at anti-war.net; peace-discuss Subject: [Peace-discuss] Wealth gap -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Fri Dec 6 14:49:20 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 08:49:20 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005d01d5ac44$584a5e00$08df1a00$@comcast.net> " Trump is being impeached because he?s the first major party candidate in 40 years to attack the neocon (more war) and neolib (more austerity) policies of all recent administrations. " Carl, As you know, I opposed Russia gate as well as the current Ukraine gate for a multitude of reasons. And I oppose impeaching Trump for this nonsense about briefly withholding weapons from Ukraine ( which is a fascist government brought to power by a CIA backed coup ) that even Obama refused to give weapons to. Trump should be impeached first and foremost for his defying a congressional vote to end support for Saudi Arabia's genocidal war in Yemen, as Bob Naiman pointed out. And John Wasom, I disagree with you about Trump being the worst President who most deserves impeachment. G.W. Bush was MUCH worse than anything Trump has done ( so far ) and should have been impeached but we can thank Nancy Pelosi and the corporate Democrats for stopping that from happening, ( Nancy Pelosi on election night Nov. 2006 - " Impeachment is off the table, impeachment is off the table " ) despite tens of thousands of local voter referendums passed across the country in 2006 ( including in the cities of Urbana and barely losing in Champaign by 2 percentage points ) calling for his impeachment for SERIOUS war crimes that cost thousands of American lives and close to a million Iraqi and Afghan lives, the passage of the police state Patriot Act, and the creation of the Guantanamo concentration camp as well as legalizing kidnappings ( renditions ), detention without charges or trial ( which did not exempt American citizens ) and torture. Oh but now, Ellen and the rest of the ruling class and their corporate media are portraying him as a cuddly likeable guy who got a freedom medal pinned on him by Joe Biden. But Carl, what you write above is totally inaccurate. Trump is a Neo Liberal on steroids. His tax cuts to the wealthy in 2017, his anti-Labor regulations and appointments to the NLRB ( National Labor Relations Board ), his appointment of Federalist Society right-wing judges, His recent NAFTA 2.0 Trade Agreement ( USMCA ) which is even worse than the original NAFTA agreement, his proposing to cut billions of dollars from the Education Department seeking to eliminate after-school programs teacher training and grants for other school needs and a proposal that would create a $5 billion program to subsidize corporate charter schools, and his recent proposal to cut 3 million dollars from the food stamp program and making it more difficult to obtain food stamps by among other things over riding individual States ability to set its own requirements that are more generous. All of which of course the corporate Democrats either openly support or pretend to oppose by making phony condemnations while doing nothing to prevent it. In terms of foreign policy, yes, Trump is and was opposed from the very beginning by the majority of U.S. corporate oligarchs ( excluding of course Sheldon Adelson , Robert Mercer, et al ) and hence likewise by the oligarch's intelligence community. Primarily because Hillary Clinton was a loyal and dependable servant of the oligarchs. Hell even Henry Kissinger and the Koch Bros. endorsed Clinton. Trump was seen as an undependable wild card with no ideology except his own opportunism and not a team player. However that did NOT make Trump an opponent of Neo Con policies, only that his Neo Con and imperialist policies differed for the Neo Con / U.S. oligarch's policies. Cases in point - His withdrawal of U.S. troops from the Syrian-Turkish border of the Rojave region only to redeploy them to the oil wells of North East Syria and to Saudi Arabia, His continued and expanded support of Saudi Arabia's war in Yemen, the recent Bolivian coup, the continued attempts to over throw the government of Venezuela and Nicaragua, intensification of economic and political sanctions against Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua, even subtle threats about drone war and invasion of Mexico. Just as the old saying about a broken clock being correct twice a day, Trump's wanting to end the cold war with Russia is what should be done, but more than likely it is so that he can focus more on belligerence in the middle east, Latin America, and especially China, as well as probable opportunistic future plans to finally be able to build a Trump hotel in Moscow which has been an ongoing 20 year failure to achieve. Then of course there was the willingness to negotiate with North Korea, but only after a schizophrenic 180 degree reversal of policy from his previous threats of attacking and his adolescent belligerent insults of " Rocket Man ". Impeachment of Trump will not succeed, and even if it did, do we really want to go from a bumbling buffoon like Trump to the intelligent and focused Christian fascist Mike Pence ? The best way to get rid of Trump is to have a good Democratic candidate run against him like Sanders or Tulsi Gabbard and in the meantime publicly call out and oppose Trump's horrible policies. But that is the last thing Pelosi, Schumer and the other DNC corporate Democrats want to do. Russia gate and Ukraine Gate is an excellent distraction so they don't have to advocate for their constituents, because they do NOT want to change their Neo Con / Neo Liberal policies that a majority of the American people oppose but the corporate oligarchic DONAR CLASS supports, and the DNC does not want to do anything to disrupt their corporate money gravy train. Lastly, all this Russia gate, Ukraine gate and impeachment focus has done is strengthen Trump in the polls. Don't believe me go look for yourselves. Not to mention who do you think the U.S. corporate oligarch ruling class and their corporate owned media are going to support if it is a general election contest between Trump and either Sanders or Tulsi ??? How much money does anyone want to bet me that they will secretly support Trump and do everything in their power to help him win re-election. Not to mention, if you see what they are doing currently to a fellow billionaire like Trump, what do you think they are going to do to a President Bernie Sanders or a President Tulsi Gabbard ? Unfortunately too many good people have been reacting with their emotions and not their logic in regards to Trump's election, and have not really thought all of this out clearly from the beginning causes of Trump being elected to consequences of current and proposed future actions. Trump is a symptom NOT the disease. David Johnson -----Original Message----- From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2019 11:20 PM To: John W. Cc: Peace-discuss Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda John-- Trump is being impeached because he?s the first major party candidate in 40 years to attack the neocon (more war) and neolib (more austerity) policies of all recent administrations. Altho? in office he's largely adopted those policies, the permanent government are afraid he?ll act on his attacks (e.g., by withdrawing from Afghanistan and Syria). Those attacks made him president by speaking for the growing populist wave of those who saw that Obama?s promises of prosperity weren?t fulfilled. Trump flipped six states that had gone for Obama in 2012 ? Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio and Florida ? in his upset victory over Clinton. And those states were lost by Obama voters who stayed home, rather than voting again for a Democrat nominee (Clinton). They'd seen no "hope and change.? So all Trump's opponents seem to have are schoolboy insults - nothing that speaks to the immiseration of the majority. The concentration of wealth in America continued - at an accelerating rate - in the Obama years., while wages remained flat - and Obama-Clinton war provocations of Russia and China increased. Since the establishment's neocon/neolib policies aren?t popular, they have only Trump?s personal failings to attack him on - which they are doing hysterically. So support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State/permanent government agenda - those policies of more war and more austerity: that?s what generates Trump's 'base.' Sanders of course speaks to those same quite real anxieties - which is why the permanent government can't allow him to be nominated: he?d win. Meanwhile, impeachment like Russiagate will continue, because it?s all the permanent government/liberals have: ORANGE MAN BAD! ?CGE > On Dec 5, 2019, at 9:27 PM, John W. wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 5:26 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: > > > > [Mary Ann Caton] 'There is much to highlight in Bill Martin's commentary here, so try this one on for size: "Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda..." Here's the rest of what he had to say: > > ?This article [above], from Truthout.org, is the kind of nonsense that has become exceedingly tiresome, but also very offensive, because it just plays around with terms such as genocide, fascist, and Nazi. > > ?The basis for the author?s argument is Trump?s tweet saying that Baltimore is a ?disgusting, rat and rodent infested mess? and ?no human would want to live there.? The author, Nicholas Powers, turns this into Trump?s supposedly using a ?rhetoric of filth? that is aimed at those same human beings. Except of course Trump doesn?t say anything like that. Powers quotes with approval Joy Behar, as a ?Jewish voice? here (which is typical bullshit Identity Politics, as it would be easy enough to find numerous Jewish voices who would disagree with her) transposing what Trump says about rats to the Nazi use of the term ?vermin? to refer to Jews. > > ?Again, Trump has said nothing like that. > > No, the quoted tweets are absolutely correct. And of course tRump wasn't talking about Jews. He was talking about Negroes. He was pissed off at Elijah Cummings, and he said (tweeted) the first juvenile thing that popped into his benighted, hate-filled mind, as he always does. Everyone with half a brain recognized it as an extremely thinly-veiled racial slur. You can dismiss it as 'identity politics' if you want to. In any event, it's extremely bad politics, and as "leadership" it's reprehensible on a number of levels. It is indeed a "rhetoric of filth", which tRump is famous for. > > > ?There?s no mention in this article about ?laying the groundwork for genocide? of Hillary Clinton?s ?basket of deplorables? comment, applied to ?half of Trump?s supporter?s,? which would amount to about thirty-one million people or so. This is conjecture on my part, but I feel that I am on solid ground: those who talk in the way that Powers does only disagree with HRC on the ?half? part. They are fine with statements of the ?dreaming of a white genocide?-sort, as long as they can get out in front of them first with some strategic virtue-signaling. Of course, the ones signaling the loudest are themselves white males, though ?educated.? But, hey, that?s a class thing, and any good liberal and leftist these days knows that talking about class is just another form of racism. > > ?Despite this nonsense being tiresome, not really worth paying attention to (obviously I?m engaging in a performative contradiction here), one wants to say to this author, and to Adam Schiff, etc., ?Keep talking, assh*les.? It?s obvious by now that no amount of self-exposure is going to have much effect on hardened Trump-haters, they?ll just double-down. > > As will the tRump lovers. So what else is new? > > > A third of this is believing that most ordinary people are stupid, racist, sexist, fascists, a third is posing as some sort of ?Resistance? and the self-satisfaction that brings, and a third is in fear of not being acceptable to their celebrity icons of political correctness and therefore susceptible to being called out. > > ?(Hillary doubled down on her remark about deplorables, numerous times. The remark was not a ?gaff? or faux-pas, it was said with the deliberate aim of drawing a line. But this isn?t about Hillary?except in the case that she becomes the 2020 Democratic nominee, which is not at all out of the realm of possibility*?it is about all of the ordinary-people Democrats who go along with this crap, and who view other ordinary people through the lens of this line.) > > ?Hopefully there are some others who will see once and for all what a load of crap the Democrats and their ?Left? allies are. Significantly, the biggest move in this direction thus far is from African-Americans who have had it with being patronized and played for chumps. > > All I'm hearing so far is this Bill Martin doing a whole bunch of name-calling. Who in hell is he? Does he play in the same schoolyard where tRump still shoots marbles? I'm not hearing a damned thing that's even remotely intelligent so far. > > > ?One thing that was useful about seeing this article posted on a liberal friend?s page is that it did make things a little more clear, to me at least, regarding the difference between liberals and the Left. > > ?The Left tries to stay on message with charging that Trump is a fascist, a Nazi, like Hitler. > The liberals say this stuff too, but also they are outraged as well by Trump?s Rocky Balboa pose (thankfully, the MSM was quick to expose that dangerous ruse!), the hateful serving of fast food to the champion Clemson football team (whose players such liberals also hate, but whatever), etc. > > Agreed, those things are pretty trivial. But they're all part of the tRump manufactured persona, designed to appeal to his 'base' who are indeed deplorables and foolishly lap the stuff up while tRump, in reality, spends millions of our taxpayer dollars on golf outings and fancy black tie dinners at Mar-a-La-Go. Really not unlike Bruce Rauner appearing in flannel shirts in all of his TV ads when he was running for governor of Illinois, though Rauner was somewhat more dignified about it. > > > ?The liberals are quick to claim that Trump supporters are not only fascist, but also stupid. The Left sometimes traffics in this language of stupidity, but in general instead claims that the sort of people who support Trump are ignorant. > > ?What, though, is the difference that makes a difference between anti-Trump liberals and anti-Trump leftists, if they seem fine in making common cause? > > ?Adam Schiff accuses Trump of ?not respecting our intelligence agencies.? It used to be that was an important aspect of the Left, not only not respecting the CIA and other parts of the ?intelligence community,? but also pulling the curtain back on them, exposing them, demonstrating why they are a horrible thing. Now we are in an upside-down world where liberals and the left go along with this stuff for the sake of impeachment, and Trump is the one pulling the curtain back. > > I have noticed this and find it interesting, though of course tRump himself isn't pulling the curtain back on shit, but merely deflecting and obfuscating and 'counter-punching' every waking moment But you know, the Real World where some of us live is not strictly Manichean. The obvious synthesis of this apparent contradiction or irony is that there is a difference between intelligence-gathering and the USE or MISUSE of the intelligence gathered, which is a matter of political policy. I suspect that most of the intelligence-gathering is pretty accurate, done by career professionals with no particular allegiance to political party. These are they whom Adam Schiff lauds. But then you have the political appointees like Mike Pompeo (former head of the CIA, not coincidentally), or like Rumsfeld/Powell of 15 years ago, or like the cabal in power during the Viet Nam war. In making their decisions, they act as often as not AGAINST the recommendations of their intelligence-gathering staff, or else they manufacture evidence to justify their misdeeds, and of course create the global chaos that we're all familiar with. This is who the 'Left' is railing against when they protest the actions of the CIA, for example - the POLITICAL POLICIES, not the intelligence gathering. > > Pay attention, Carl. There'll be a quiz on this later in the semester. > > > ?Nothing better can be expected from the liberal or ?progressive? ?blue no matter who?-crowd. They?re openly down with the CIA, NSC, etc. But if you?re a ?leftist? or some other supposedly ?radical? opponent of Trump, part of the ?Resistance,? and you?re supporting this impeachment nonsense, this would be a good time to do some hard thinking.** > > Blah blah blah. More name calling. Bill Martin, whoever he is, doesn't like 'The Left'. We get that. I don't like Bill Martin. He's an idiot. > > > *(Who will be the 2020 Democratic nominee? I?m not a gambler, but it wouldn?t be that wild of a proposition to put some money on Michelle Obama.) > > **(In stark terms, just to be clear ? Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda?and this assertion does not depend on coming up with a ?precise definition? of the Deep State. Certainly, from ordinary people, whether Democrats, leftists, etc., ?support for impeachment? doesn?t really mean much, since no one is asking you anyway. Your role is cheerleader for the system. Really, I think things need to be taken further: Calling out Adam Schiff and his cohort, who are fronting for the CIA and the ?intelligence community? is what is needed, which means opposition to this impeachment nonsense. If there was anything like a ?true Left? today, one that embodied the spirit of the Sixties Left, but under very different conditions?these conditions, unfortunately, having knocked the current Left for a crazy and terrible loop, to put things politely, this exposure and opposition to the impeachment Schiff-show is what would be happening.) > > Bullshit. tRump isn't being impeached because he's a reformer who is courageously challenging the Deep State. What a joke. He's being impeached because he has flouted the Constitution in every way imaginable. He's an amoral, narcissistic coprophage who has alienated practically every one of our allies, fractured the country domestically, assaulted the environment, and brought calumny on the United States. Sure, this telephone call with the Ukrainian leader is only a hook on which to hang the hat of impeachment, and we know that the Republican Senate isn't going to convict him anyway. But if there has ever been a President in our nation's history who has deserved to be impeached, this guy is it. Otherwise we may as well just throw the Constitution completely out the window and let the fascists run things the way they see fit. > > And by the way, Gentle Readers.....We've had the Deep State for quite a long time now, as Carl is always so faithful to point out, and I feel safe in saying that we will always have the Deep State. We've had war since there were human beings on the planet. tRump is not going to put an end to either of those things. It's not even in his consciousness. So why keep yammering about it? Can you really not find anything more productive to talk about and protest and work toward? Maybe something actually attainable? > > > ?[Your comments are welcome, but comments about 1) my supposed obsession with Hillary (no, I?m more obsessed with liberal and left affirmation of the deplorables remark?and another important term here is ?rural?); 2) the demand to have precise definitions of things (I have been inspired/provoked by such demands to write a glossary for the book I am presently completing, but there is plenty enough to go on in the CounterPunch*** articles already published) before ?discussion? can continue (I?m not going to get into some purely semantic exercise to let people get away with siding with the CIA, okay? ?so just deal with that; and, as far as the hardened Trump-haters are concerned, who view everything through the lens of ?Trump must go, regardless of the shortcomings of the Democrats,? I?m not interested in meeting your demands in any case?that would be both impossible and pointless); 3) my ?just repeating GOP talking points,? or comments that are just name-calling?I won?t respond to such comments, and will probably delete them, because they are unhelpful and I?ve already given enough play to such things; the exception is if the comment works as good self-exposure (as they say in football, an ?own-goal?) of the person who makes the comment.] > > ***(I will write a separate post regarding this when I have the situation sorted, but some reading this may be interested in know that I?ve now been deplatformed by CounterPunch. I knew that I would go too far at some point, given the general trend there lately, as well-represented by a recent article by Andrew Levine (whose work, especially on Rousseau, Kant, Marx, Rawls, analytical Marxism, and Althusser, I have admired for many years), ?Get Trump First, But Then ?? (Nov. 15). I?m not angry, I will remain grateful to Jeffrey St. Clair for going as far as he has with me, though I?m a little sad and disappointed, especially because I hoped to wrap up my Trump series at CounterPunch and then put it all together in a book. Now I?ll need to do this somewhere else, I?ll let you know where?I had two articles in the pipeline, one on the impeachment nonsense, the other on the coup in Bolivia, I hope to have them out soon.)? > > ~ Bill Martin > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Fri Dec 6 15:05:58 2019 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 09:05:58 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Wealth gap In-Reply-To: <003801d5ac31$3f7a6ae0$be6f40a0$@comcast.net> References: <003801d5ac31$3f7a6ae0$be6f40a0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: There is not really much new to see in this article; moreover, it is a diversionary tactic (as one expects in the WSJ) to talk about wealth accumulation in terms of generations, or even race. Overall economic inequality on the basis of increased exploitation is what we should be talking about, along with property values/rent-seeking, financialization, etc. It applies among boomers and within white people as well. No, I'm not being defensive, especially given I'm not rich. The "boomers", as a generation, didn't do it. If you want to see the graphic, you can download the files to your desktop and open them from there. *This depressing chart shows the jaw-dropping wealth gap between millennials and boomers* By Nicole Lyn Pesce WSJ Dec 5, 2019 When baby boomers (born between 1946 and 1964) hit a median age of 35 in 1990, they collectively owned 21% of the nation?s wealth. The millennial generation will hit that 35 median age in four years and they are nowhere near owning that percentage. In fact, this inter-generational wealth chart drawn by economist Gray Kimbrough using Federal Reserve data is a stark illustration of the yawning millennial wealth deficit. Adults under 40 have been accumulating less and less wealth over the past 30 years, plummeting from owning 13% of the wealth in 1989 to less than 7% today. Indeed, at a median age of 35, Gen Xers owned just 9% of the nation?s wealth in 2008 ? less than half what boomers had at that age. And millennials will have to triple their net worth in the next four years to catch up to Generation X at 35, and increase their wealth sevenfold to catch up to boomers at that age. That will be a difficult feat indeed considering most are saddled with student loan debt which has hit a record collective $1.6 trillion. *The Federal Reserve* estimates that more than a third of the 45 million Americans burdened by that debt are under 30. *Related:* *How wiping out $1.5 trillion in student debt would boost the economy* Four in 10 Americans under age 30 described their financial situation as ?poor? in *a recent Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research poll* . And half doubt their ability to pay for an unexpected bill, which is twice the proportion of people ages 60 and older. There is some hope on the horizon, however. Boomers are expecting to pass on their estates to their heirs in what?s being dubbed* ?the great wealth transfer,?* which could see those millennials lucky enough to have relatives with money collecting $59 trillion in wealth and assets. On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 6:33 AM David Johnson via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > Ron, > > > > The file you sent does not open. > > > > David J. > > > > *From:* Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] *On > Behalf Of *Szoke, Ron via Peace-discuss > *Sent:* Thursday, December 05, 2019 5:12 PM > *To:* peace-discuss at anti-war.net; peace-discuss > *Subject:* [Peace-discuss] Wealth gap > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brussel at illinois.edu Fri Dec 6 22:24:59 2019 From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 22:24:59 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda In-Reply-To: <005d01d5ac44$584a5e00$08df1a00$@comcast.net> References: <005d01d5ac44$584a5e00$08df1a00$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <95D0F27F-A09C-4AA3-8848-76E7B6FB903C@illinois.edu> A fine contribution, Dave. I?d only add that some of the most dangerous acts of the Trump administration concerns nuclear weapons; withdrawal from the INF treaty (Intermediate Nuclear Weapons treaty), limitations on long range ballistic missiles, and the development of more and better such weapons (costing more than 1T$ over the next decade). If, improbably, Sanders becomesthe Democratic presidential nominee, one wonders just how the MSM (NYT, WP, MSNBC, ?) will treat the issues brought forth and the support for or against him. > On Dec 6, 2019, at 8:49 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: > > " Trump is being impeached because he?s the first major party candidate in 40 years to attack the neocon (more war) and neolib (more austerity) policies of all recent administrations. " > > Carl, > > As you know, I opposed Russia gate as well as the current Ukraine gate for a multitude of reasons. And I oppose impeaching Trump for this nonsense about briefly withholding weapons from Ukraine ( which is a fascist government brought to power by a CIA backed coup ) that even Obama refused to give weapons to. > Trump should be impeached first and foremost for his defying a congressional vote to end support for Saudi Arabia's genocidal war in Yemen, as Bob Naiman pointed out. > > And John Wasom, I disagree with you about Trump being the worst President who most deserves impeachment. G.W. Bush was MUCH worse than anything Trump has done ( so far ) and should have been impeached but we can thank Nancy Pelosi and the corporate Democrats for stopping that from happening, > ( Nancy Pelosi on election night Nov. 2006 - " Impeachment is off the table, impeachment is off the table " ) despite tens of thousands of local voter referendums passed across the country in 2006 ( including in the cities of Urbana and barely losing in Champaign by 2 percentage points ) calling for his impeachment for SERIOUS war crimes that cost thousands of American lives and close to a million Iraqi and Afghan lives, the passage of the police state Patriot Act, and the creation of the Guantanamo concentration camp as well as legalizing kidnappings ( renditions ), detention without charges or trial ( which did not exempt American citizens ) and torture. > Oh but now, Ellen and the rest of the ruling class and their corporate media are portraying him as a cuddly likeable guy who got a freedom medal pinned on him by Joe Biden. > > But Carl, what you write above is totally inaccurate. > > Trump is a Neo Liberal on steroids. His tax cuts to the wealthy in 2017, his anti-Labor regulations and appointments to the NLRB ( National Labor Relations Board ), his appointment of Federalist Society right-wing judges, His recent NAFTA 2.0 Trade Agreement ( USMCA ) which is even worse than the original NAFTA agreement, his proposing to cut billions of dollars from the Education Department seeking to eliminate after-school programs teacher training and grants for other school needs and a proposal that would create a $5 billion program to subsidize corporate charter schools, and his recent proposal to cut 3 million dollars from the food stamp program and making it more difficult to obtain food stamps by among other things over riding individual States ability to set its own requirements that are more generous. > All of which of course the corporate Democrats either openly support or pretend to oppose by making phony condemnations while doing nothing to prevent it. > > In terms of foreign policy, yes, Trump is and was opposed from the very beginning by the majority of U.S. corporate oligarchs ( excluding of course Sheldon Adelson , Robert Mercer, et al ) and hence likewise by the oligarch's intelligence community. Primarily because Hillary Clinton was a loyal and dependable servant of the oligarchs. Hell even Henry Kissinger and the Koch Bros. endorsed Clinton. Trump was seen as an undependable wild card with no ideology except his own opportunism and not a team player. However that did NOT make Trump an opponent of Neo Con policies, only that his Neo Con and imperialist policies differed for the Neo Con / U.S. oligarch's policies. > > Cases in point - His withdrawal of U.S. troops from the Syrian-Turkish border of the Rojave region only to redeploy them to the oil wells of North East Syria and to Saudi Arabia, His continued and expanded support of Saudi Arabia's war in Yemen, the recent Bolivian coup, the continued attempts to over throw the government of Venezuela and Nicaragua, intensification of economic and political sanctions against Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua, even subtle threats about drone war and invasion of Mexico. > > Just as the old saying about a broken clock being correct twice a day, Trump's wanting to end the cold war with Russia is what should be done, but more than likely it is so that he can focus more on belligerence in the middle east, Latin America, and especially China, as well as probable opportunistic future plans to finally be able to build a Trump hotel in Moscow which has been an ongoing 20 year failure to achieve. Then of course there was the willingness to negotiate with North Korea, but only after a schizophrenic 180 degree reversal of policy from his previous threats of attacking and his adolescent belligerent insults of " Rocket Man ". > > Impeachment of Trump will not succeed, and even if it did, do we really want to go from a bumbling buffoon like Trump to the intelligent and focused Christian fascist Mike Pence ? > The best way to get rid of Trump is to have a good Democratic candidate run against him like Sanders or Tulsi Gabbard and in the meantime publicly call out and oppose Trump's horrible policies. But that is the last thing Pelosi, Schumer and the other DNC corporate Democrats want to do. Russia gate and Ukraine Gate is an excellent distraction so they don't have to advocate for their constituents, because they do NOT want to change their Neo Con / Neo Liberal policies that a majority of the American people oppose but the corporate oligarchic DONAR CLASS supports, and the DNC does not want to do anything to disrupt their corporate money gravy train. > > Lastly, all this Russia gate, Ukraine gate and impeachment focus has done is strengthen Trump in the polls. Don't believe me go look for yourselves. Not to mention who do you think the U.S. corporate oligarch ruling class and their corporate owned media are going to support if it is a general election contest between Trump and either Sanders or Tulsi ??? > How much money does anyone want to bet me that they will secretly support Trump and do everything in their power to help him win re-election. > Not to mention, if you see what they are doing currently to a fellow billionaire like Trump, what do you think they are going to do to a President Bernie Sanders or a President Tulsi Gabbard ? > > Unfortunately too many good people have been reacting with their emotions and not their logic in regards to Trump's election, and have not really thought all of this out clearly from the beginning causes of Trump being elected to consequences of current and proposed future actions. > Trump is a symptom NOT the disease. > > David Johnson > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2019 11:20 PM > To: John W. > Cc: Peace-discuss > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda > > John-- > > Trump is being impeached because he?s the first major party candidate in 40 years to attack the neocon (more war) and neolib (more austerity) policies of all recent administrations. > > Altho? in office he's largely adopted those policies, the permanent government are afraid he?ll act on his attacks (e.g., by withdrawing from Afghanistan and Syria). > > Those attacks made him president by speaking for the growing populist wave of those who saw that Obama?s promises of prosperity weren?t fulfilled. > > Trump flipped six states that had gone for Obama in 2012 ? Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio and Florida ? in his upset victory over Clinton. > > And those states were lost by Obama voters who stayed home, rather than voting again for a Democrat nominee (Clinton). They'd seen no "hope and change.? > > So all Trump's opponents seem to have are schoolboy insults - nothing that speaks to the immiseration of the majority. > > The concentration of wealth in America continued - at an accelerating rate - in the Obama years., while wages remained flat - and Obama-Clinton war provocations of Russia and China increased. > > Since the establishment's neocon/neolib policies aren?t popular, they have only Trump?s personal failings to attack him on - which they are doing hysterically. > > So support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State/permanent government agenda - those policies of more war and more austerity: that?s what generates Trump's 'base.' > > Sanders of course speaks to those same quite real anxieties - which is why the permanent government can't allow him to be nominated: he?d win. > > Meanwhile, impeachment like Russiagate will continue, because it?s all the permanent government/liberals have: ORANGE MAN BAD! > > ?CGE > > >> On Dec 5, 2019, at 9:27 PM, John W. wrote: >> >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 5:26 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: >> >> >> >> [Mary Ann Caton] 'There is much to highlight in Bill Martin's commentary here, so try this one on for size: "Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda..." Here's the rest of what he had to say: >> >> ?This article [above], from Truthout.org, is the kind of nonsense that has become exceedingly tiresome, but also very offensive, because it just plays around with terms such as genocide, fascist, and Nazi. >> >> ?The basis for the author?s argument is Trump?s tweet saying that Baltimore is a ?disgusting, rat and rodent infested mess? and ?no human would want to live there.? The author, Nicholas Powers, turns this into Trump?s supposedly using a ?rhetoric of filth? that is aimed at those same human beings. Except of course Trump doesn?t say anything like that. Powers quotes with approval Joy Behar, as a ?Jewish voice? here (which is typical bullshit Identity Politics, as it would be easy enough to find numerous Jewish voices who would disagree with her) transposing what Trump says about rats to the Nazi use of the term ?vermin? to refer to Jews. >> >> ?Again, Trump has said nothing like that. >> >> No, the quoted tweets are absolutely correct. And of course tRump wasn't talking about Jews. He was talking about Negroes. He was pissed off at Elijah Cummings, and he said (tweeted) the first juvenile thing that popped into his benighted, hate-filled mind, as he always does. Everyone with half a brain recognized it as an extremely thinly-veiled racial slur. You can dismiss it as 'identity politics' if you want to. In any event, it's extremely bad politics, and as "leadership" it's reprehensible on a number of levels. It is indeed a "rhetoric of filth", which tRump is famous for. >> >> >> ?There?s no mention in this article about ?laying the groundwork for genocide? of Hillary Clinton?s ?basket of deplorables? comment, applied to ?half of Trump?s supporter?s,? which would amount to about thirty-one million people or so. This is conjecture on my part, but I feel that I am on solid ground: those who talk in the way that Powers does only disagree with HRC on the ?half? part. They are fine with statements of the ?dreaming of a white genocide?-sort, as long as they can get out in front of them first with some strategic virtue-signaling. Of course, the ones signaling the loudest are themselves white males, though ?educated.? But, hey, that?s a class thing, and any good liberal and leftist these days knows that talking about class is just another form of racism. >> >> ?Despite this nonsense being tiresome, not really worth paying attention to (obviously I?m engaging in a performative contradiction here), one wants to say to this author, and to Adam Schiff, etc., ?Keep talking, assh*les.? It?s obvious by now that no amount of self-exposure is going to have much effect on hardened Trump-haters, they?ll just double-down. >> >> As will the tRump lovers. So what else is new? >> >> >> A third of this is believing that most ordinary people are stupid, racist, sexist, fascists, a third is posing as some sort of ?Resistance? and the self-satisfaction that brings, and a third is in fear of not being acceptable to their celebrity icons of political correctness and therefore susceptible to being called out. >> >> ?(Hillary doubled down on her remark about deplorables, numerous times. The remark was not a ?gaff? or faux-pas, it was said with the deliberate aim of drawing a line. But this isn?t about Hillary?except in the case that she becomes the 2020 Democratic nominee, which is not at all out of the realm of possibility*?it is about all of the ordinary-people Democrats who go along with this crap, and who view other ordinary people through the lens of this line.) >> >> ?Hopefully there are some others who will see once and for all what a load of crap the Democrats and their ?Left? allies are. Significantly, the biggest move in this direction thus far is from African-Americans who have had it with being patronized and played for chumps. >> >> All I'm hearing so far is this Bill Martin doing a whole bunch of name-calling. Who in hell is he? Does he play in the same schoolyard where tRump still shoots marbles? I'm not hearing a damned thing that's even remotely intelligent so far. >> >> >> ?One thing that was useful about seeing this article posted on a liberal friend?s page is that it did make things a little more clear, to me at least, regarding the difference between liberals and the Left. >> >> ?The Left tries to stay on message with charging that Trump is a fascist, a Nazi, like Hitler. >> The liberals say this stuff too, but also they are outraged as well by Trump?s Rocky Balboa pose (thankfully, the MSM was quick to expose that dangerous ruse!), the hateful serving of fast food to the champion Clemson football team (whose players such liberals also hate, but whatever), etc. >> >> Agreed, those things are pretty trivial. But they're all part of the tRump manufactured persona, designed to appeal to his 'base' who are indeed deplorables and foolishly lap the stuff up while tRump, in reality, spends millions of our taxpayer dollars on golf outings and fancy black tie dinners at Mar-a-La-Go. Really not unlike Bruce Rauner appearing in flannel shirts in all of his TV ads when he was running for governor of Illinois, though Rauner was somewhat more dignified about it. >> >> >> ?The liberals are quick to claim that Trump supporters are not only fascist, but also stupid. The Left sometimes traffics in this language of stupidity, but in general instead claims that the sort of people who support Trump are ignorant. >> >> ?What, though, is the difference that makes a difference between anti-Trump liberals and anti-Trump leftists, if they seem fine in making common cause? >> >> ?Adam Schiff accuses Trump of ?not respecting our intelligence agencies.? It used to be that was an important aspect of the Left, not only not respecting the CIA and other parts of the ?intelligence community,? but also pulling the curtain back on them, exposing them, demonstrating why they are a horrible thing. Now we are in an upside-down world where liberals and the left go along with this stuff for the sake of impeachment, and Trump is the one pulling the curtain back. >> >> I have noticed this and find it interesting, though of course tRump himself isn't pulling the curtain back on shit, but merely deflecting and obfuscating and 'counter-punching' every waking moment But you know, the Real World where some of us live is not strictly Manichean. The obvious synthesis of this apparent contradiction or irony is that there is a difference between intelligence-gathering and the USE or MISUSE of the intelligence gathered, which is a matter of political policy. I suspect that most of the intelligence-gathering is pretty accurate, done by career professionals with no particular allegiance to political party. These are they whom Adam Schiff lauds. But then you have the political appointees like Mike Pompeo (former head of the CIA, not coincidentally), or like Rumsfeld/Powell of 15 years ago, or like the cabal in power during the Viet Nam war. In making their decisions, they act as often as not AGAINST the recommendations of their intelligence-gathering staff, or else they manufacture evidence to justify their misdeeds, and of course create the global chaos that we're all familiar with. This is who the 'Left' is railing against when they protest the actions of the CIA, for example - the POLITICAL POLICIES, not the intelligence gathering. >> >> Pay attention, Carl. There'll be a quiz on this later in the semester. >> >> >> ?Nothing better can be expected from the liberal or ?progressive? ?blue no matter who?-crowd. They?re openly down with the CIA, NSC, etc. But if you?re a ?leftist? or some other supposedly ?radical? opponent of Trump, part of the ?Resistance,? and you?re supporting this impeachment nonsense, this would be a good time to do some hard thinking.** >> >> Blah blah blah. More name calling. Bill Martin, whoever he is, doesn't like 'The Left'. We get that. I don't like Bill Martin. He's an idiot. >> >> >> *(Who will be the 2020 Democratic nominee? I?m not a gambler, but it wouldn?t be that wild of a proposition to put some money on Michelle Obama.) >> >> **(In stark terms, just to be clear ? Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda?and this assertion does not depend on coming up with a ?precise definition? of the Deep State. Certainly, from ordinary people, whether Democrats, leftists, etc., ?support for impeachment? doesn?t really mean much, since no one is asking you anyway. Your role is cheerleader for the system. Really, I think things need to be taken further: Calling out Adam Schiff and his cohort, who are fronting for the CIA and the ?intelligence community? is what is needed, which means opposition to this impeachment nonsense. If there was anything like a ?true Left? today, one that embodied the spirit of the Sixties Left, but under very different conditions?these conditions, unfortunately, having knocked the current Left for a crazy and terrible loop, to put things politely, this exposure and opposition to the impeachment Schiff-show is what would be happening.) >> >> Bullshit. tRump isn't being impeached because he's a reformer who is courageously challenging the Deep State. What a joke. He's being impeached because he has flouted the Constitution in every way imaginable. He's an amoral, narcissistic coprophage who has alienated practically every one of our allies, fractured the country domestically, assaulted the environment, and brought calumny on the United States. Sure, this telephone call with the Ukrainian leader is only a hook on which to hang the hat of impeachment, and we know that the Republican Senate isn't going to convict him anyway. But if there has ever been a President in our nation's history who has deserved to be impeached, this guy is it. Otherwise we may as well just throw the Constitution completely out the window and let the fascists run things the way they see fit. >> >> And by the way, Gentle Readers.....We've had the Deep State for quite a long time now, as Carl is always so faithful to point out, and I feel safe in saying that we will always have the Deep State. We've had war since there were human beings on the planet. tRump is not going to put an end to either of those things. It's not even in his consciousness. So why keep yammering about it? Can you really not find anything more productive to talk about and protest and work toward? Maybe something actually attainable? >> >> >> ?[Your comments are welcome, but comments about 1) my supposed obsession with Hillary (no, I?m more obsessed with liberal and left affirmation of the deplorables remark?and another important term here is ?rural?); 2) the demand to have precise definitions of things (I have been inspired/provoked by such demands to write a glossary for the book I am presently completing, but there is plenty enough to go on in the CounterPunch*** articles already published) before ?discussion? can continue (I?m not going to get into some purely semantic exercise to let people get away with siding with the CIA, okay? ?so just deal with that; and, as far as the hardened Trump-haters are concerned, who view everything through the lens of ?Trump must go, regardless of the shortcomings of the Democrats,? I?m not interested in meeting your demands in any case?that would be both impossible and pointless); 3) my ?just repeating GOP talking points,? or comments that are just name-calling?I won?t respond to such comments, and will probably delete them, because they are unhelpful and I?ve already given enough play to such things; the exception is if the comment works as good self-exposure (as they say in football, an ?own-goal?) of the person who makes the comment.] >> >> ***(I will write a separate post regarding this when I have the situation sorted, but some reading this may be interested in know that I?ve now been deplatformed by CounterPunch. I knew that I would go too far at some point, given the general trend there lately, as well-represented by a recent article by Andrew Levine (whose work, especially on Rousseau, Kant, Marx, Rawls, analytical Marxism, and Althusser, I have admired for many years), ?Get Trump First, But Then ?? (Nov. 15). I?m not angry, I will remain grateful to Jeffrey St. Clair for going as far as he has with me, though I?m a little sad and disappointed, especially because I hoped to wrap up my Trump series at CounterPunch and then put it all together in a book. Now I?ll need to do this somewhere else, I?ll let you know where?I had two articles in the pipeline, one on the impeachment nonsense, the other on the coup in Bolivia, I hope to have them out soon.)? >> >> ~ Bill Martin >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From jbn at forestfield.org Sat Dec 7 00:12:53 2019 From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 18:12:53 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] News from Neptune #442 notes Message-ID: <74971abe-85a2-abb5-4fee-af173f9b2150@forestfield.org> News from Neptune #442 A "Fight Race Reductionism" edition Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6tW-stKUKc A list of links to items referenced on the show. Tariq Ali on "A Conversation with C.L.R. James" https://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1980/07/tariq-ali.htm Briahna Gray on "Beware the Race Reductionist" https://theintercept.com/2018/08/26/beware-the-race-reductionist/ Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian Gordon Wood on the New York Times? 1619 Project" https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian James McPherson on the New York Times? 1619 Project" https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html "Black Marxism" by Cedric Robinson Published: October 2005 Complete book: https://libcom.org/files/Black%20Marxism-Cedric%20J.%20Robinson.pdf Paperback ISBN: 978-0-8078-4829-6 eBook ISBN: 978-0-8078-7612-1 Gregory Myerson on "Tortilla Curtain and The Ecology of Fear" https://projects.ncsu.edu/project/acontracorriente/fall_04/Meyerson.pdf "The Wages of Whiteness: Race and the Making of the American Working Class" by David Roediger Complete book: https://caringlabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/roediger-the-wages-of-whiteness-race-and-the-making-of-the-american-working-class.pdf Noel Ignatiev and "Race Traitor" Winter 2005 number 16: https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Race-Traitor-%E2%84%96-16-Winter-2005.pdf Articles about Noel Ignatiev https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/15/noel-ignatiev-remembering-a-comrade-and-a-friend/ http://www.renegadetribune.com/genocidal-jew-noel-ignatiev-is-dead-good-riddance/ "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev ISBN: 0415918251 ISBN13: 9780415918251 Theodore W. Allen on "On Roediger's Wages of Whiteness" http://www.elegantbrain.com/edu4/classes/readings/race-roediger-allen.html Cedric Johnson on "The Wages of Roediger: Why Three Decades of Whiteness Studies Has Not Produced the Left We Need" https://nonsite.org/article/the-wages-of-roediger-why-three-decades-of-whiteness-studies-has-not-produced-the-left-we-need Barbara J. Fields on "Slavery, Race and Ideology in the United States of America" https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2763-slavery-race-and-ideology-in-the-united-states-of-america David Green's "Wealth gap" post to peace-discuss https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051656.html David Green's recent letters to the editor of the News-Gazette https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-harassment-study-is-silly-propaganda/article_9d4eee6b-a8fa-5d8a-8609-169c0d256af9.html -- "Harassment study is silly propaganda" https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor-concerns-voiced-about-bend-the-arc/article_99b2ac36-4279-5cad-8b60-892ca30dde6e.html -- "Concerns voiced about Bend the Arc" C. G. Estabrook on News-Gazette?s feature ?Those Who Served? weekly feature in a letter to the News-Gazette https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-u-s-has-killed-millions-in/article_87b213e5-9f21-5acf-8f54-df41b18d026d.html Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow" https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon#Gravity's_Rainbow_(1973) Moderate Rebels on "What was Pete Buttigieg doing in Iraq?: US gov whistleblower on war profiteering and corruption" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9V-HlSyiwE https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/moderaterebels/Moderate_Rebels_Pete_Buttigieg_Iraq_Peter_Van_Buren.mp3?dest-id=553365 Alicia Luke on "Buttigieg Admits No Combat Ribbon From Deployment To Afghanistan" https://freedomoutpost.com/buttigieg-admits-no-combat-ribbon-from-deployment-to-afghanistan/ Louis Proyect on "Douma, Chlorine Gas and Occam?s Razor" https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/22/douma-chlorine-gas-and-occams-razor/ Jefferson Morley on "Why the Douma Chemical Attack Wasn?t a ?Managed Massacre?" https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/06/why-the-douma-chemical-attack-wasnt-a-managed-massacre/ J.B. Nicholson's notes https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015404.html https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051610.html -J From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 7 03:04:49 2019 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 19:04:49 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes In-Reply-To: <74971abe-85a2-abb5-4fee-af173f9b2150@forestfield.org> References: <74971abe-85a2-abb5-4fee-af173f9b2150@forestfield.org> Message-ID: Good show My thoughts while watching: It might be of value to mention that CLR James, author of the Black Jacobins, Adolph Reed and others discussing ?race as not the issue, focus should be on class,? are not white. In a recent interview with Adolph Reed he claimed to have been a former Black Panther. Many believe Kamala Harris failure to generate support, was due to her tough law and order record when a DA in SF. She was no liberal. She is now playing the race card by claiming, ?America isn?t ready for a woman President, a black woman President.? As to Pete Buttagieg, it might be worth promoting the podcast discussion referred to by Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal. Their interview with journalist Peter Van Buren was very insightful. My employer had me charge Kinsey Consultants $1,000 an hour, consulting with me. Had I known what I know now, I would have charged double. https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video Louis Proyect, the former ISO leadership, the local Black Rose Anarchists, and many others have lost credibility as ?Leftists,? when they support the USG intervention and war in Syria. Many are Trotskyist organizations, as claimed by Diana Johnstone, but not all, the WSWS.ORG does not support imperialism in Syria. Socialists/Communists generally do not support imperialism in Syria or anywhere else, if they do one should question there true intentions. > On Dec 6, 2019, at 16:12, J.B. Nicholson via Peace wrote: > > News from Neptune #442 > A "Fight Race Reductionism" edition > Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6tW-stKUKc > > A list of links to items referenced on the show. > > Tariq Ali on "A Conversation with C.L.R. James" > https://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1980/07/tariq-ali.htm > > Briahna Gray on "Beware the Race Reductionist" > https://theintercept.com/2018/08/26/beware-the-race-reductionist/ > > Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian Gordon Wood on the New York Times? 1619 Project" > https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html > > Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian James McPherson on the New York Times? 1619 Project" > https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html > > "Black Marxism" by Cedric Robinson > Published: October 2005 > Complete book: https://libcom.org/files/Black%20Marxism-Cedric%20J.%20Robinson.pdf > Paperback ISBN: 978-0-8078-4829-6 > eBook ISBN: 978-0-8078-7612-1 > > Gregory Myerson on "Tortilla Curtain and The Ecology of Fear" > https://projects.ncsu.edu/project/acontracorriente/fall_04/Meyerson.pdf > > "The Wages of Whiteness: Race and the Making of the American Working Class" by David Roediger > Complete book: https://caringlabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/roediger-the-wages-of-whiteness-race-and-the-making-of-the-american-working-class.pdf > > Noel Ignatiev and "Race Traitor" > Winter 2005 number 16: https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Race-Traitor-%E2%84%96-16-Winter-2005.pdf > > Articles about Noel Ignatiev > https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/15/noel-ignatiev-remembering-a-comrade-and-a-friend/ > http://www.renegadetribune.com/genocidal-jew-noel-ignatiev-is-dead-good-riddance/ > > "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev > ISBN: 0415918251 > ISBN13: 9780415918251 > > Theodore W. Allen on "On Roediger's Wages of Whiteness" > http://www.elegantbrain.com/edu4/classes/readings/race-roediger-allen.html > > Cedric Johnson on "The Wages of Roediger: Why Three Decades of Whiteness Studies Has Not Produced the Left We Need" > https://nonsite.org/article/the-wages-of-roediger-why-three-decades-of-whiteness-studies-has-not-produced-the-left-we-need > > > > > Barbara J. Fields on "Slavery, Race and Ideology in the United States of America" > https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2763-slavery-race-and-ideology-in-the-united-states-of-america > > David Green's "Wealth gap" post to peace-discuss > https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051656.html > > > > > David Green's recent letters to the editor of the News-Gazette > https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-harassment-study-is-silly-propaganda/article_9d4eee6b-a8fa-5d8a-8609-169c0d256af9.html -- "Harassment study is silly propaganda" > https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor-concerns-voiced-about-bend-the-arc/article_99b2ac36-4279-5cad-8b60-892ca30dde6e.html -- "Concerns voiced about Bend the Arc" > > C. G. Estabrook on News-Gazette?s feature ?Those Who Served? weekly feature in a letter to the News-Gazette > https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-u-s-has-killed-millions-in/article_87b213e5-9f21-5acf-8f54-df41b18d026d.html > > Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow" > https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon#Gravity's_Rainbow_(1973) > > > > > > Moderate Rebels on "What was Pete Buttigieg doing in Iraq?: US gov whistleblower on war profiteering and corruption" > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9V-HlSyiwE > https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/moderaterebels/Moderate_Rebels_Pete_Buttigieg_Iraq_Peter_Van_Buren.mp3?dest-id=553365 > > Alicia Luke on "Buttigieg Admits No Combat Ribbon From Deployment To Afghanistan" > https://freedomoutpost.com/buttigieg-admits-no-combat-ribbon-from-deployment-to-afghanistan/ > > > > > Louis Proyect on "Douma, Chlorine Gas and Occam?s Razor" > https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/22/douma-chlorine-gas-and-occams-razor/ > > Jefferson Morley on "Why the Douma Chemical Attack Wasn?t a ?Managed Massacre?" > https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/06/why-the-douma-chemical-attack-wasnt-a-managed-massacre/ > > > > > > J.B. Nicholson's notes > https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015404.html > https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051610.html > > -J > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace From carl at newsfromneptune.com Sat Dec 7 05:07:08 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 23:07:08 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes In-Reply-To: References: <74971abe-85a2-abb5-4fee-af173f9b2150@forestfield.org> Message-ID: Thanks for the response. Have you seen the interesting questions raised about Buttigieg in regard to (1) his clients at Kinsey and (2) his activities in naval intelligence? He seems to have been working for essentially the same people both times. Nathan Robinson in an older article in Current Affairs exposed some of who he is. I?m just back from a weekend in South Bend (?Mayor Pete?), commemorating an anti-war demo at Notre Dame no less than 50 years ago. Under ordinary circumstances, my kids would have grown up there, and I would have retired from ND. (The best line was my eldest son?s. When I told him last week that we were going to ND for the weekend, I said, "You might have grown up there.? He said, "Dad, I DID grow up there.? He was six when we left.) "I grow old ... I grow old ? / I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.? ?CGE > On Dec 6, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Karen Aram wrote: > > Good show > > My thoughts while watching: > > It might be of value to mention that CLR James, author of the Black Jacobins, Adolph Reed and others discussing ?race as not the issue, focus should be on class,? are not white. In a recent interview with Adolph Reed he claimed to have been a former Black Panther. > > Many believe Kamala Harris failure to generate support, was due to her tough law and order record when a DA in SF. She was no liberal. She is now playing the race card by claiming, ?America isn?t ready for a woman President, a black woman President.? > > As to Pete Buttagieg, it might be worth promoting the podcast discussion referred to by Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal. Their interview with journalist Peter Van Buren was very insightful. My employer had me charge Kinsey Consultants $1,000 an hour, consulting with me. Had I known what I know now, I would have charged double. > > https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video > > Louis Proyect, the former ISO leadership, the local Black Rose Anarchists, and many others have lost credibility as ?Leftists,? when they support the USG intervention and war in Syria. Many are Trotskyist organizations, as claimed by Diana Johnstone, but not all, the WSWS.ORG does not support imperialism in Syria. > > Socialists/Communists generally do not support imperialism in Syria or anywhere else, if they do one should question there true intentions. > > > > > >> On Dec 6, 2019, at 16:12, J.B. Nicholson via Peace wrote: >> >> News from Neptune #442 >> A "Fight Race Reductionism" edition >> Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6tW-stKUKc >> >> A list of links to items referenced on the show. >> >> Tariq Ali on "A Conversation with C.L.R. James" >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1980/07/tariq-ali.htm >> >> Briahna Gray on "Beware the Race Reductionist" >> https://theintercept.com/2018/08/26/beware-the-race-reductionist/ >> >> Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian Gordon Wood on the New York Times? 1619 Project" >> https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html >> >> Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian James McPherson on the New York Times? 1619 Project" >> https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html >> >> "Black Marxism" by Cedric Robinson >> Published: October 2005 >> Complete book: https://libcom.org/files/Black%20Marxism-Cedric%20J.%20Robinson.pdf >> Paperback ISBN: 978-0-8078-4829-6 >> eBook ISBN: 978-0-8078-7612-1 >> >> Gregory Myerson on "Tortilla Curtain and The Ecology of Fear" >> https://projects.ncsu.edu/project/acontracorriente/fall_04/Meyerson.pdf >> >> "The Wages of Whiteness: Race and the Making of the American Working Class" by David Roediger >> Complete book: https://caringlabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/roediger-the-wages-of-whiteness-race-and-the-making-of-the-american-working-class.pdf >> >> Noel Ignatiev and "Race Traitor" >> Winter 2005 number 16: https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Race-Traitor-%E2%84%96-16-Winter-2005.pdf >> >> Articles about Noel Ignatiev >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/15/noel-ignatiev-remembering-a-comrade-and-a-friend/ >> http://www.renegadetribune.com/genocidal-jew-noel-ignatiev-is-dead-good-riddance/ >> >> "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev >> ISBN: 0415918251 >> ISBN13: 9780415918251 >> >> Theodore W. Allen on "On Roediger's Wages of Whiteness" >> http://www.elegantbrain.com/edu4/classes/readings/race-roediger-allen.html >> >> Cedric Johnson on "The Wages of Roediger: Why Three Decades of Whiteness Studies Has Not Produced the Left We Need" >> https://nonsite.org/article/the-wages-of-roediger-why-three-decades-of-whiteness-studies-has-not-produced-the-left-we-need >> >> >> >> >> Barbara J. Fields on "Slavery, Race and Ideology in the United States of America" >> https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2763-slavery-race-and-ideology-in-the-united-states-of-america >> >> David Green's "Wealth gap" post to peace-discuss >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051656.html >> >> >> >> >> David Green's recent letters to the editor of the News-Gazette >> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-harassment-study-is-silly-propaganda/article_9d4eee6b-a8fa-5d8a-8609-169c0d256af9.html -- "Harassment study is silly propaganda" >> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor-concerns-voiced-about-bend-the-arc/article_99b2ac36-4279-5cad-8b60-892ca30dde6e.html -- "Concerns voiced about Bend the Arc" >> >> C. G. Estabrook on News-Gazette?s feature ?Those Who Served? weekly feature in a letter to the News-Gazette >> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-u-s-has-killed-millions-in/article_87b213e5-9f21-5acf-8f54-df41b18d026d.html >> >> Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow" >> https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon#Gravity's_Rainbow_(1973) >> >> >> >> >> >> Moderate Rebels on "What was Pete Buttigieg doing in Iraq?: US gov whistleblower on war profiteering and corruption" >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9V-HlSyiwE >> https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/moderaterebels/Moderate_Rebels_Pete_Buttigieg_Iraq_Peter_Van_Buren.mp3?dest-id=553365 >> >> Alicia Luke on "Buttigieg Admits No Combat Ribbon From Deployment To Afghanistan" >> https://freedomoutpost.com/buttigieg-admits-no-combat-ribbon-from-deployment-to-afghanistan/ >> >> >> >> >> Louis Proyect on "Douma, Chlorine Gas and Occam?s Razor" >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/22/douma-chlorine-gas-and-occams-razor/ >> >> Jefferson Morley on "Why the Douma Chemical Attack Wasn?t a ?Managed Massacre?" >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/06/why-the-douma-chemical-attack-wasnt-a-managed-massacre/ >> >> >> >> >> >> J.B. Nicholson's notes >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015404.html >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051610.html >> >> -J >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > From brussel at illinois.edu Sat Dec 7 05:20:00 2019 From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2019 05:20:00 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes In-Reply-To: References: <74971abe-85a2-abb5-4fee-af173f9b2150@forestfield.org> Message-ID: <9CCB27B0-FE59-4188-9E6C-5210B573A0D1@illinois.edu> My response to the show discussions is that it was at best mixed. It ended with reflections of David Green expressing doubts about the Douma incident, which basically expressed his ignorance. T. Postal was pretty clear about what could have occurred. The levels of chlorine gas found was said to be background Chlorine levels, but more importantly there were the leaks of withheld information by the two whistleblowers of the OECD. Seemed pretty clear to me that this was a false flag operation. The opening discussion about how identity politics obscures the class aspect of inequities I found to be turgid, whatever the ambiguous truths are to the arguments presented. Then there came the nonsensical sly apologetics regarding what Trump really wants. Caitlin Johnstone had a pertinent discussion about this [https://consortiumnews.com/2019/11/19/25-times-trump-has-been-dangerously-hawkish-on-russia/], leaving aside Trump's actions towards Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, Yemen, Bolivia, Iran, Syria,? And calling Assad truely a monster?? seemd gratuitous. But the discussion about the Democratic candidates, Harris and Butagieg(sp?) seemed just right, as did the remarks about the weird impeachment phenomenon. On Dec 6, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: Good show My thoughts while watching: It might be of value to mention that CLR James, author of the Black Jacobins, Adolph Reed and others discussing ?race as not the issue, focus should be on class,? are not white. In a recent interview with Adolph Reed he claimed to have been a former Black Panther. Many believe Kamala Harris failure to generate support, was due to her tough law and order record when a DA in SF. She was no liberal. She is now playing the race card by claiming, ?America isn?t ready for a woman President, a black woman President.? As to Pete Buttagieg, it might be worth promoting the podcast discussion referred to by Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal. Their interview with journalist Peter Van Buren was very insightful. My employer had me charge Kinsey Consultants $1,000 an hour, consulting with me. Had I known what I know now, I would have charged double. https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video Louis Proyect, the former ISO leadership, the local Black Rose Anarchists, and many others have lost credibility as ?Leftists,? when they support the USG intervention and war in Syria. Many are Trotskyist organizations, as claimed by Diana Johnstone, but not all, the WSWS.ORG does not support imperialism in Syria. Socialists/Communists generally do not support imperialism in Syria or anywhere else, if they do one should question there true intentions. On Dec 6, 2019, at 16:12, J.B. Nicholson via Peace > wrote: News from Neptune #442 A "Fight Race Reductionism" edition Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6tW-stKUKc A list of links to items referenced on the show. Tariq Ali on "A Conversation with C.L.R. James" https://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1980/07/tariq-ali.htm Briahna Gray on "Beware the Race Reductionist" https://theintercept.com/2018/08/26/beware-the-race-reductionist/ Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian Gordon Wood on the New York Times? 1619 Project" https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian James McPherson on the New York Times? 1619 Project" https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html "Black Marxism" by Cedric Robinson Published: October 2005 Complete book: https://libcom.org/files/Black%20Marxism-Cedric%20J.%20Robinson.pdf Paperback ISBN: 978-0-8078-4829-6 eBook ISBN: 978-0-8078-7612-1 Gregory Myerson on "Tortilla Curtain and The Ecology of Fear" https://projects.ncsu.edu/project/acontracorriente/fall_04/Meyerson.pdf "The Wages of Whiteness: Race and the Making of the American Working Class" by David Roediger Complete book: https://caringlabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/roediger-the-wages-of-whiteness-race-and-the-making-of-the-american-working-class.pdf Noel Ignatiev and "Race Traitor" Winter 2005 number 16: https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Race-Traitor-%E2%84%96-16-Winter-2005.pdf Articles about Noel Ignatiev https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/15/noel-ignatiev-remembering-a-comrade-and-a-friend/ http://www.renegadetribune.com/genocidal-jew-noel-ignatiev-is-dead-good-riddance/ "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev ISBN: 0415918251 ISBN13: 9780415918251 Theodore W. Allen on "On Roediger's Wages of Whiteness" http://www.elegantbrain.com/edu4/classes/readings/race-roediger-allen.html Cedric Johnson on "The Wages of Roediger: Why Three Decades of Whiteness Studies Has Not Produced the Left We Need" https://nonsite.org/article/the-wages-of-roediger-why-three-decades-of-whiteness-studies-has-not-produced-the-left-we-need Barbara J. Fields on "Slavery, Race and Ideology in the United States of America" https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2763-slavery-race-and-ideology-in-the-united-states-of-america David Green's "Wealth gap" post to peace-discuss https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051656.html David Green's recent letters to the editor of the News-Gazette https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-harassment-study-is-silly-propaganda/article_9d4eee6b-a8fa-5d8a-8609-169c0d256af9.html -- "Harassment study is silly propaganda" https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor-concerns-voiced-about-bend-the-arc/article_99b2ac36-4279-5cad-8b60-892ca30dde6e.html -- "Concerns voiced about Bend the Arc" C. G. Estabrook on News-Gazette?s feature ?Those Who Served? weekly feature in a letter to the News-Gazette https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-u-s-has-killed-millions-in/article_87b213e5-9f21-5acf-8f54-df41b18d026d.html Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow" https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon#Gravity's_Rainbow_(1973) Moderate Rebels on "What was Pete Buttigieg doing in Iraq?: US gov whistleblower on war profiteering and corruption" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9V-HlSyiwE https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/moderaterebels/Moderate_Rebels_Pete_Buttigieg_Iraq_Peter_Van_Buren.mp3?dest-id=553365 Alicia Luke on "Buttigieg Admits No Combat Ribbon From Deployment To Afghanistan" https://freedomoutpost.com/buttigieg-admits-no-combat-ribbon-from-deployment-to-afghanistan/ Louis Proyect on "Douma, Chlorine Gas and Occam?s Razor" https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/22/douma-chlorine-gas-and-occams-razor/ Jefferson Morley on "Why the Douma Chemical Attack Wasn?t a ?Managed Massacre?" https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/06/why-the-douma-chemical-attack-wasnt-a-managed-massacre/ J.B. Nicholson's notes https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015404.html https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051610.html -J _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 7 13:27:34 2019 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2019 05:27:34 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes In-Reply-To: References: <74971abe-85a2-abb5-4fee-af173f9b2150@forestfield.org> Message-ID: Carl LOL, Kids, yes I just heard the same from a friend whose son left Bangkok at age five. I saw the very interesting posting and photo of you with anti-war students at ND, and the article in relation to your activism supporting the students at the time. I pay little attention to the elections/candidates so I knew next to nothing about Buttigieg until I heard the interview with Peter Van Buren by the Moderate Rebels, and realized I knew little about Kinsey as well, thinking they were just a consulting firm, granted a major one but??.. > On Dec 6, 2019, at 21:07, C. G. Estabrook wrote: > > Thanks for the response. > > Have you seen the interesting questions raised about Buttigieg in regard to (1) his clients at Kinsey and (2) his activities in naval intelligence? > > He seems to have been working for essentially the same people both times. > > Nathan Robinson in an older article in Current Affairs exposed some of who he is. > > I?m just back from a weekend in South Bend (?Mayor Pete?), commemorating an anti-war demo at Notre Dame no less than 50 years ago. > > Under ordinary circumstances, my kids would have grown up there, and I would have retired from ND. > > (The best line was my eldest son?s. When I told him last week that we were going to ND for the weekend, I said, "You might have grown up there.? > > He said, "Dad, I DID grow up there.? He was six when we left.) > > "I grow old ... I grow old ? / I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.? > > ?CGE > > > >> On Dec 6, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >> >> Good show >> >> My thoughts while watching: >> >> It might be of value to mention that CLR James, author of the Black Jacobins, Adolph Reed and others discussing ?race as not the issue, focus should be on class,? are not white. In a recent interview with Adolph Reed he claimed to have been a former Black Panther. >> >> Many believe Kamala Harris failure to generate support, was due to her tough law and order record when a DA in SF. She was no liberal. She is now playing the race card by claiming, ?America isn?t ready for a woman President, a black woman President.? >> >> As to Pete Buttagieg, it might be worth promoting the podcast discussion referred to by Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal. Their interview with journalist Peter Van Buren was very insightful. My employer had me charge Kinsey Consultants $1,000 an hour, consulting with me. Had I known what I know now, I would have charged double. >> >> https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video >> >> Louis Proyect, the former ISO leadership, the local Black Rose Anarchists, and many others have lost credibility as ?Leftists,? when they support the USG intervention and war in Syria. Many are Trotskyist organizations, as claimed by Diana Johnstone, but not all, the WSWS.ORG does not support imperialism in Syria. >> >> Socialists/Communists generally do not support imperialism in Syria or anywhere else, if they do one should question there true intentions. >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Dec 6, 2019, at 16:12, J.B. Nicholson via Peace wrote: >>> >>> News from Neptune #442 >>> A "Fight Race Reductionism" edition >>> Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6tW-stKUKc >>> >>> A list of links to items referenced on the show. >>> >>> Tariq Ali on "A Conversation with C.L.R. James" >>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1980/07/tariq-ali.htm >>> >>> Briahna Gray on "Beware the Race Reductionist" >>> https://theintercept.com/2018/08/26/beware-the-race-reductionist/ >>> >>> Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian Gordon Wood on the New York Times? 1619 Project" >>> https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html >>> >>> Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian James McPherson on the New York Times? 1619 Project" >>> https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html >>> >>> "Black Marxism" by Cedric Robinson >>> Published: October 2005 >>> Complete book: https://libcom.org/files/Black%20Marxism-Cedric%20J.%20Robinson.pdf >>> Paperback ISBN: 978-0-8078-4829-6 >>> eBook ISBN: 978-0-8078-7612-1 >>> >>> Gregory Myerson on "Tortilla Curtain and The Ecology of Fear" >>> https://projects.ncsu.edu/project/acontracorriente/fall_04/Meyerson.pdf >>> >>> "The Wages of Whiteness: Race and the Making of the American Working Class" by David Roediger >>> Complete book: https://caringlabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/roediger-the-wages-of-whiteness-race-and-the-making-of-the-american-working-class.pdf >>> >>> Noel Ignatiev and "Race Traitor" >>> Winter 2005 number 16: https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Race-Traitor-%E2%84%96-16-Winter-2005.pdf >>> >>> Articles about Noel Ignatiev >>> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/15/noel-ignatiev-remembering-a-comrade-and-a-friend/ >>> http://www.renegadetribune.com/genocidal-jew-noel-ignatiev-is-dead-good-riddance/ >>> >>> "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev >>> ISBN: 0415918251 >>> ISBN13: 9780415918251 >>> >>> Theodore W. Allen on "On Roediger's Wages of Whiteness" >>> http://www.elegantbrain.com/edu4/classes/readings/race-roediger-allen.html >>> >>> Cedric Johnson on "The Wages of Roediger: Why Three Decades of Whiteness Studies Has Not Produced the Left We Need" >>> https://nonsite.org/article/the-wages-of-roediger-why-three-decades-of-whiteness-studies-has-not-produced-the-left-we-need >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Barbara J. Fields on "Slavery, Race and Ideology in the United States of America" >>> https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2763-slavery-race-and-ideology-in-the-united-states-of-america >>> >>> David Green's "Wealth gap" post to peace-discuss >>> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051656.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> David Green's recent letters to the editor of the News-Gazette >>> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-harassment-study-is-silly-propaganda/article_9d4eee6b-a8fa-5d8a-8609-169c0d256af9.html -- "Harassment study is silly propaganda" >>> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor-concerns-voiced-about-bend-the-arc/article_99b2ac36-4279-5cad-8b60-892ca30dde6e.html -- "Concerns voiced about Bend the Arc" >>> >>> C. G. Estabrook on News-Gazette?s feature ?Those Who Served? weekly feature in a letter to the News-Gazette >>> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-u-s-has-killed-millions-in/article_87b213e5-9f21-5acf-8f54-df41b18d026d.html >>> >>> Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow" >>> https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon#Gravity's_Rainbow_(1973) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Moderate Rebels on "What was Pete Buttigieg doing in Iraq?: US gov whistleblower on war profiteering and corruption" >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9V-HlSyiwE >>> https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/moderaterebels/Moderate_Rebels_Pete_Buttigieg_Iraq_Peter_Van_Buren.mp3?dest-id=553365 >>> >>> Alicia Luke on "Buttigieg Admits No Combat Ribbon From Deployment To Afghanistan" >>> https://freedomoutpost.com/buttigieg-admits-no-combat-ribbon-from-deployment-to-afghanistan/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Louis Proyect on "Douma, Chlorine Gas and Occam?s Razor" >>> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/22/douma-chlorine-gas-and-occams-razor/ >>> >>> Jefferson Morley on "Why the Douma Chemical Attack Wasn?t a ?Managed Massacre?" >>> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/06/why-the-douma-chemical-attack-wasnt-a-managed-massacre/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> J.B. Nicholson's notes >>> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015404.html >>> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051610.html >>> >>> -J >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace mailing list >>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >> > From moboct1 at aim.com Sat Dec 7 13:57:57 2019 From: moboct1 at aim.com (Mildred O'brien) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2019 13:57:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda In-Reply-To: <95D0F27F-A09C-4AA3-8848-76E7B6FB903C@illinois.edu> References: <005d01d5ac44$584a5e00$08df1a00$@comcast.net> <95D0F27F-A09C-4AA3-8848-76E7B6FB903C@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <2068990490.4856383.1575727077050@mail.yahoo.com> I've heard that the Trump administration is also exploring methods of using?nuclear?missiles to target?asteroids that?threaten?earth, thereby scattering nuclear particles in earth's atmosphere. Midge -----Original Message----- From: Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss To: David Johnson Cc: John W. ; Peace-discuss ; C. G. Estabrook Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2019 4:25 pm Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda A fine contribution, Dave. I?d only add that some of the most dangerous acts of the Trump administration concerns nuclear weapons; withdrawal from the INF treaty (Intermediate Nuclear Weapons treaty), limitations on long range ballistic missiles, and the development of more and better such weapons (costing more than 1T$ over the next decade). If, improbably, Sanders becomesthe Democratic presidential nominee, one wonders just how the MSM (NYT, WP, MSNBC, ?) will treat the issues brought forth and the support for or against him. > On Dec 6, 2019, at 8:49 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: > > " Trump is being impeached because he?s the first major party candidate in 40 years to attack the neocon (more war) and neolib (more austerity) policies of all recent administrations. " > > Carl, > > As you know, I opposed Russia gate as well as the current Ukraine gate for a multitude of reasons. And I oppose impeaching Trump for this nonsense about briefly withholding weapons from Ukraine ( which is a fascist government brought to power by a CIA backed coup ) that even Obama refused to give weapons to. > Trump should be impeached first and foremost for his defying a congressional vote to end support for Saudi Arabia's genocidal war in Yemen, as Bob Naiman pointed out. > > And John Wasom, I disagree with you about Trump being the worst President who most deserves impeachment. G.W. Bush was MUCH worse than anything Trump has done ( so far ) and should have been impeached but we can thank Nancy Pelosi and the corporate Democrats for stopping that from happening, > ( Nancy Pelosi on election night Nov. 2006 -? " Impeachment is off the table, impeachment is off the table " ) despite tens of thousands of local voter referendums passed across the country in 2006 ( including in the cities of Urbana and barely losing in Champaign by 2 percentage points ) calling for his impeachment for SERIOUS war crimes that cost thousands of American lives and close to a million Iraqi and Afghan lives, the passage of the police state Patriot Act, and the creation of the Guantanamo concentration camp as well as legalizing kidnappings ( renditions ), detention without charges or trial ( which did not exempt American citizens ) and torture. > Oh but now, Ellen and the rest of the ruling class and their corporate media are portraying him as a cuddly likeable guy who got a freedom medal pinned on him by Joe Biden. > > But Carl, what you write above is totally inaccurate. > > Trump is a Neo Liberal on steroids. His tax cuts to the wealthy in 2017, his anti-Labor regulations and appointments to the NLRB ( National Labor Relations Board ), his appointment of Federalist Society right-wing judges, His recent NAFTA 2.0 Trade Agreement ( USMCA ) which is even worse than the original NAFTA agreement, his proposing to cut billions of dollars from the Education Department seeking to eliminate after-school programs teacher training and grants for other school needs and a proposal that would create a $5 billion program to subsidize corporate charter schools, and his recent proposal to cut 3 million dollars from the food stamp program and making it more difficult to obtain food stamps by among other things over riding individual States ability to set its own requirements that are more generous. > All of which of course the corporate Democrats either openly support or pretend to oppose by making phony condemnations while doing nothing to prevent it. > > In terms of foreign policy, yes, Trump is and was opposed from the very beginning by the majority of U.S. corporate oligarchs ( excluding of course Sheldon Adelson , Robert Mercer, et al ) and hence likewise by the oligarch's intelligence community. Primarily because Hillary Clinton was a loyal and dependable servant of the oligarchs. Hell even Henry Kissinger and the Koch Bros. endorsed Clinton. Trump was seen as an undependable wild card with no ideology except his own opportunism and not a team player. However that did NOT make Trump an opponent of Neo Con policies, only that his Neo Con and imperialist policies differed for the Neo Con / U.S. oligarch's policies. > > Cases in point -? His withdrawal of U.S. troops from the Syrian-Turkish border of the Rojave region only to redeploy them to the oil wells of North East Syria and to Saudi Arabia, His continued and expanded support of Saudi Arabia's war in Yemen, the recent Bolivian coup, the continued attempts to over throw the government of Venezuela and Nicaragua, intensification of economic and political sanctions against Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua, even subtle threats about drone war and invasion of Mexico. > > Just as the old saying about a broken clock being correct twice a day, Trump's wanting to end the cold war with Russia is what should be done, but more than likely it is so that he can focus more on belligerence in the middle east, Latin America, and especially China, as well as probable opportunistic future plans to finally be able to build a Trump hotel in Moscow which has been an ongoing 20 year failure to achieve. Then of course there was the willingness to negotiate with North Korea, but only after a schizophrenic 180 degree reversal of policy from his previous threats of attacking and his adolescent belligerent insults of " Rocket Man ". > > Impeachment of Trump will not succeed, and even if it did, do we really want to go from a bumbling buffoon like Trump to the intelligent and focused Christian fascist Mike Pence ? > The best way to get rid of Trump is to have a good Democratic candidate run against him like Sanders or Tulsi Gabbard and in the meantime publicly call out and oppose Trump's horrible policies. But that is the last thing Pelosi, Schumer and the other DNC corporate Democrats want to do. Russia gate and Ukraine Gate is an excellent distraction so they don't have to advocate for their constituents, because they do NOT want to change their Neo Con / Neo Liberal policies that a majority of the American people oppose but the corporate oligarchic DONAR CLASS supports, and the DNC does not want to do anything to disrupt their corporate money gravy train. > > Lastly, all this Russia gate, Ukraine gate and impeachment focus has done is strengthen Trump in the polls. Don't believe me go look for yourselves. Not to mention who do you think the U.S. corporate oligarch ruling class and their corporate owned media are going to support if it is a general election contest between Trump and either Sanders or Tulsi ??? > How much money does anyone want to bet me that they will secretly support Trump and do everything in their power to help him win re-election. > Not to mention, if you see what they are doing currently to a fellow billionaire like Trump, what do you think they are going to do to a President Bernie Sanders or a President Tulsi Gabbard ? > > Unfortunately too many good people have been reacting with their emotions and not their logic in regards to Trump's election, and have not really thought all of this out clearly from the beginning causes of Trump being elected? to consequences of? current and proposed future actions. > Trump is a symptom NOT the disease. > > David Johnson > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2019 11:20 PM > To: John W. > Cc: Peace-discuss > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda > > John-- > > Trump is being impeached because he?s the first major party candidate in 40 years to attack the neocon (more war) and neolib (more austerity) policies of all recent administrations. > > Altho? in office he's largely adopted those policies, the permanent government are afraid he?ll act on his attacks (e.g., by withdrawing from Afghanistan and Syria). > > Those attacks made him president by speaking for the growing populist wave of those who saw that Obama?s promises of prosperity weren?t fulfilled. > > Trump flipped six states that had gone for Obama in 2012 ? Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio and Florida ? in his upset victory over Clinton. > > And those states were lost by Obama voters who stayed home, rather than voting again for a Democrat nominee (Clinton). They'd seen no "hope and change.? > > So all Trump's opponents seem to have are schoolboy insults - nothing that speaks to the immiseration of the majority. > > The concentration of wealth in America continued - at an accelerating rate - in the Obama years., while wages remained flat - and Obama-Clinton war provocations of Russia and China increased.? > > Since the establishment's neocon/neolib policies aren?t popular, they have only Trump?s personal failings to attack him on - which they are doing hysterically. > > So support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State/permanent government agenda - those policies of more war and more austerity: that?s what generates Trump's 'base.' > > Sanders of course speaks to those same quite real anxieties - which is why the permanent government can't allow him to be nominated: he?d win. > > Meanwhile, impeachment like Russiagate will continue, because it?s all the permanent government/liberals have: ORANGE MAN BAD! > > ?CGE > > >> On Dec 5, 2019, at 9:27 PM, John W. wrote: >> >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 5:26 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: >> >> >> >> [Mary Ann Caton] 'There is much to highlight in Bill Martin's commentary here, so try this one on for size: "Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda..." Here's the rest of what he had to say: >> >> ?This article [above], from Truthout.org, is the kind of nonsense that has become exceedingly tiresome, but also very offensive, because it just plays around with terms such as genocide, fascist, and Nazi. >> >> ?The basis for the author?s argument is Trump?s tweet saying that Baltimore is a ?disgusting, rat and rodent infested mess? and ?no human would want to live there.? The author, Nicholas Powers, turns this into Trump?s supposedly using a ?rhetoric of filth? that is aimed at those same human beings. Except of course Trump doesn?t say anything like that. Powers quotes with approval Joy Behar, as a ?Jewish voice? here (which is typical bullshit Identity Politics, as it would be easy enough to find numerous Jewish voices who would disagree with her) transposing what Trump says about rats to the Nazi use of the term ?vermin? to refer to Jews. >> >> ?Again, Trump has said nothing like that. >> >> No, the quoted tweets are absolutely correct.? And of course tRump wasn't talking about Jews.? He was talking about Negroes.? He was pissed off at Elijah Cummings, and he said (tweeted) the first juvenile thing that popped into his benighted, hate-filled mind, as he always does.? Everyone with half a brain recognized it as an extremely thinly-veiled racial slur.? You can dismiss it as 'identity politics' if you want to.? In any event, it's extremely bad politics, and as "leadership" it's reprehensible on a number of levels.? It is indeed a "rhetoric of filth", which tRump is famous for. >> >> >> ?There?s no mention in this article about ?laying the groundwork for genocide? of Hillary Clinton?s ?basket of deplorables? comment, applied to ?half of Trump?s supporter?s,? which would amount to about thirty-one million people or so. This is conjecture on my part, but I feel that I am on solid ground: those who talk in the way that Powers does only disagree with HRC on the ?half? part. They are fine with statements of the ?dreaming of a white genocide?-sort, as long as they can get out in front of them first with some strategic virtue-signaling. Of course, the ones signaling the loudest are themselves white males, though ?educated.? But, hey, that?s a class thing, and any good liberal and leftist these days knows that talking about class is just another form of racism. >> >> ?Despite this nonsense being tiresome, not really worth paying attention to (obviously I?m engaging in a performative contradiction here), one wants to say to this author, and to Adam Schiff, etc., ?Keep talking, assh*les.? It?s obvious by now that no amount of self-exposure is going to have much effect on hardened Trump-haters, they?ll just double-down. >> >> As will the tRump lovers.? So what else is new? >> >> >> A third of this is believing that most ordinary people are stupid, racist, sexist, fascists, a third is posing as some sort of ?Resistance? and the self-satisfaction that brings, and a third is in fear of not being acceptable to their celebrity icons of political correctness and therefore susceptible to being called out. >> >> ?(Hillary doubled down on her remark about deplorables, numerous times. The remark was not a ?gaff? or faux-pas, it was said with the deliberate aim of drawing a line. But this isn?t about Hillary?except in the case that she becomes the 2020 Democratic nominee, which is not at all out of the realm of possibility*?it is about all of the ordinary-people Democrats who go along with this crap, and who view other ordinary people through the lens of this line.) >> >> ?Hopefully there are some others who will see once and for all what a load of crap the Democrats and their ?Left? allies are. Significantly, the biggest move in this direction thus far is from African-Americans who have had it with being patronized and played for chumps. >> >> All I'm hearing so far is this Bill Martin doing a whole bunch of name-calling.? Who in hell is he?? Does he play in the same schoolyard where tRump still shoots marbles?? I'm not hearing a damned thing that's even remotely intelligent so far. >> >> >> ?One thing that was useful about seeing this article posted on a liberal friend?s page is that it did make things a little more clear, to me at least, regarding the difference between liberals and the Left. >> >> ?The Left tries to stay on message with charging that Trump is a fascist, a Nazi, like Hitler. >> The liberals say this stuff too, but also they are outraged as well by Trump?s Rocky Balboa pose (thankfully, the MSM was quick to expose that dangerous ruse!), the hateful serving of fast food to the champion Clemson football team (whose players such liberals also hate, but whatever), etc. >> >> Agreed, those things are pretty trivial.? But they're all part of the tRump manufactured persona, designed to appeal to his 'base' who are indeed deplorables and foolishly lap the stuff up while tRump, in reality, spends millions of our taxpayer dollars on golf outings and fancy black tie dinners at Mar-a-La-Go.? Really not unlike Bruce Rauner appearing in flannel shirts in all of his TV ads when he was running for governor of Illinois, though Rauner was somewhat more dignified about it. >> >> >> ?The liberals are quick to claim that Trump supporters are not only fascist, but also stupid. The Left sometimes traffics in this language of stupidity, but in general instead claims that the sort of people who support Trump are ignorant. >> >> ?What, though, is the difference that makes a difference between anti-Trump liberals and anti-Trump leftists, if they seem fine in making common cause? >> >> ?Adam Schiff accuses Trump of ?not respecting our intelligence agencies.? It used to be that was an important aspect of the Left, not only not respecting the CIA and other parts of the ?intelligence community,? but also pulling the curtain back on them, exposing them, demonstrating why they are a horrible thing. Now we are in an upside-down world where liberals and the left go along with this stuff for the sake of impeachment, and Trump is the one pulling the curtain back. >> >> I have noticed this and find it interesting, though of course tRump himself isn't pulling the curtain back on shit, but merely deflecting and obfuscating and 'counter-punching' every waking moment? ? But you know, the Real World where some of us live is not strictly Manichean.? The obvious synthesis of this apparent contradiction or irony is that there is a difference between intelligence-gathering and the USE or MISUSE of the intelligence gathered, which is a matter of political policy.? I suspect that most of the intelligence-gathering is pretty accurate, done by career professionals with no particular allegiance to political party.? These are they whom Adam Schiff lauds.? But then you have the political appointees like Mike Pompeo (former head of the CIA, not coincidentally), or like Rumsfeld/Powell of 15 years ago, or like the cabal in power during the Viet Nam war.? In making their decisions, they act as often as not AGAINST the recommendations of their intelligence-gathering staff, or else they manufacture evidence to justify their misdeeds, and of course create the global chaos that we're all familiar with.? This is who the 'Left' is railing against when they protest the actions of the CIA, for example - the POLITICAL POLICIES, not the intelligence gathering.? >> >> Pay attention, Carl.? There'll be a quiz on this later in the semester. >> >> >> ?Nothing better can be expected from the liberal or ?progressive? ?blue no matter who?-crowd. They?re openly down with the CIA, NSC, etc. But if you?re a ?leftist? or some other supposedly ?radical? opponent of Trump, part of the ?Resistance,? and you?re supporting this impeachment nonsense, this would be a good time to do some hard thinking.** >> >> Blah blah blah.? More name calling.? Bill Martin, whoever he is, doesn't like 'The Left'.? We get that.? I don't like Bill Martin.? He's an idiot. >> >> >> *(Who will be the 2020 Democratic nominee? I?m not a gambler, but it wouldn?t be that wild of a proposition to put some money on Michelle Obama.) >> >> **(In stark terms, just to be clear ? Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda?and this assertion does not depend on coming up with a ?precise definition? of the Deep State. Certainly, from ordinary people, whether Democrats, leftists, etc., ?support for impeachment? doesn?t really mean much, since no one is asking you anyway. Your role is cheerleader for the system. Really, I think things need to be taken further: Calling out Adam Schiff and his cohort, who are fronting for the CIA and the ?intelligence community? is what is needed, which means opposition to this impeachment nonsense. If there was anything like a ?true Left? today, one that embodied the spirit of the Sixties Left, but under very different conditions?these conditions, unfortunately, having knocked the current Left for a crazy and terrible loop, to put things politely, this exposure and opposition to the impeachment Schiff-show is what would be happening.) >> >> Bullshit.? tRump isn't being impeached because he's a reformer who is courageously challenging the Deep State.? What a joke.? He's being impeached because he has flouted the Constitution in every way imaginable.? He's an amoral, narcissistic coprophage who has alienated practically every one of our allies, fractured the country domestically, assaulted the environment, and brought calumny on the United States.? Sure, this telephone call with the Ukrainian leader is only a hook on which to hang the hat of impeachment, and we know that the Republican Senate isn't going to convict him anyway.? But if there has ever been a President in our nation's history who has deserved to be impeached, this guy is it.? Otherwise we may as well just throw the Constitution completely out the window and let the fascists run things the way they see fit. >> >> And by the way, Gentle Readers.....We've had the Deep State for quite a long time now, as Carl is always so faithful to point out, and I feel safe in saying that we will always have the Deep State.? We've had war since there were human beings on the planet.? tRump is not going to put an end to either of those things.? It's not even in his consciousness.? So why keep yammering about it?? Can you really not find anything more productive to talk about and protest and work toward?? Maybe something actually attainable? >> >> >> ?[Your comments are welcome, but comments about 1) my supposed obsession with Hillary (no, I?m more obsessed with liberal and left affirmation of the deplorables remark?and another important term here is ?rural?); 2) the demand to have precise definitions of things (I have been inspired/provoked by such demands to write a glossary for the book I am presently completing, but there is plenty enough to go on in the CounterPunch*** articles already published) before ?discussion? can continue (I?m not going to get into some purely semantic exercise to let people get away with siding with the CIA, okay? ?so just deal with that; and, as far as the hardened Trump-haters are concerned, who view everything through the lens of ?Trump must go, regardless of the shortcomings of the Democrats,? I?m not interested in meeting your demands in any case?that would be both impossible and pointless); 3) my ?just repeating GOP talking points,? or comments that are just name-calling?I won?t respond to such comments, and will probably delete them, because they are unhelpful and I?ve already given enough play to such things; the exception is if the comment works as good self-exposure (as they say in football, an ?own-goal?) of the person who makes the comment.] >> >> ***(I will write a separate post regarding this when I have the situation sorted, but some reading this may be interested in know that I?ve now been deplatformed by CounterPunch. I knew that I would go too far at some point, given the general trend there lately, as well-represented by a recent article by Andrew Levine (whose work, especially on Rousseau, Kant, Marx, Rawls, analytical Marxism, and Althusser, I have admired for many years), ?Get Trump First, But Then ?? (Nov. 15). I?m not angry, I will remain grateful to Jeffrey St. Clair for going as far as he has with me, though I?m a little sad and disappointed, especially because I hoped to wrap up my Trump series at CounterPunch and then put it all together in a book. Now I?ll need to do this somewhere else, I?ll let you know where?I had two articles in the pipeline, one on the impeachment nonsense, the other on the coup in Bolivia, I hope to have them out soon.)? >> >> ~ Bill Martin >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Sat Dec 7 14:02:19 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2019 08:02:19 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda In-Reply-To: <2068990490.4856383.1575727077050@mail.yahoo.com> References: <005d01d5ac44$584a5e00$08df1a00$@comcast.net> <95D0F27F-A09C-4AA3-8848-76E7B6FB903C@illinois.edu> <2068990490.4856383.1575727077050@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002101d5ad06$f17bd050$d47370f0$@comcast.net> Yes ! Thank you Mort for mentioning this other very important point that I failed to mention in regards to the INF treaty and more weapons being produced. David J. From: Mildred O'brien [mailto:moboct1 at aim.com] Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2019 7:58 AM To: brussel at illinois.edu; davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Cc: jbw292002 at gmail.com; peace-discuss at anti-war.net; carl at newsfromneptune.com Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda I've heard that the Trump administration is also exploring methods of using nuclear missiles to target asteroids that threaten earth, thereby scattering nuclear particles in earth's atmosphere. Midge -----Original Message----- From: Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss To: David Johnson Cc: John W. ; Peace-discuss ; C. G. Estabrook Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2019 4:25 pm Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda A fine contribution, Dave. I?d only add that some of the most dangerous acts of the Trump administration concerns nuclear weapons; withdrawal from the INF treaty (Intermediate Nuclear Weapons treaty), limitations on long range ballistic missiles, and the development of more and better such weapons (costing more than 1T$ over the next decade). If, improbably, Sanders becomesthe Democratic presidential nominee, one wonders just how the MSM (NYT, WP, MSNBC, ?) will treat the issues brought forth and the support for or against him. > On Dec 6, 2019, at 8:49 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: > > " Trump is being impeached because he?s the first major party candidate in 40 years to attack the neocon (more war) and neolib (more austerity) policies of all recent administrations. " > > Carl, > > As you know, I opposed Russia gate as well as the current Ukraine gate for a multitude of reasons. And I oppose impeaching Trump for this nonsense about briefly withholding weapons from Ukraine ( which is a fascist government brought to power by a CIA backed coup ) that even Obama refused to give weapons to. > Trump should be impeached first and foremost for his defying a congressional vote to end support for Saudi Arabia's genocidal war in Yemen, as Bob Naiman pointed out. > > And John Wasom, I disagree with you about Trump being the worst President who most deserves impeachment. G.W. Bush was MUCH worse than anything Trump has done ( so far ) and should have been impeached but we can thank Nancy Pelosi and the corporate Democrats for stopping that from happening, > ( Nancy Pelosi on election night Nov. 2006 - " Impeachment is off the table, impeachment is off the table " ) despite tens of thousands of local voter referendums passed across the country in 2006 ( including in the cities of Urbana and barely losing in Champaign by 2 percentage points ) calling for his impeachment for SERIOUS war crimes that cost thousands of American lives and close to a million Iraqi and Afghan lives, the passage of the police state Patriot Act, and the creation of the Guantanamo concentration camp as well as legalizing kidnappings ( renditions ), detention without charges or trial ( which did not exempt American citizens ) and torture. > Oh but now, Ellen and the rest of the ruling class and their corporate media are portraying him as a cuddly likeable guy who got a freedom medal pinned on him by Joe Biden. > > But Carl, what you write above is totally inaccurate. > > Trump is a Neo Liberal on steroids. His tax cuts to the wealthy in 2017, his anti-Labor regulations and appointments to the NLRB ( National Labor Relations Board ), his appointment of Federalist Society right-wing judges, His recent NAFTA 2.0 Trade Agreement ( USMCA ) which is even worse than the original NAFTA agreement, his proposing to cut billions of dollars from the Education Department seeking to eliminate after-school programs teacher training and grants for other school needs and a proposal that would create a $5 billion program to subsidize corporate charter schools, and his recent proposal to cut 3 million dollars from the food stamp program and making it more difficult to obtain food stamps by among other things over riding individual States ability to set its own requirements that are more generous. > All of which of course the corporate Democrats either openly support or pretend to oppose by making phony condemnations while doing nothing to prevent it. > > In terms of foreign policy, yes, Trump is and was opposed from the very beginning by the majority of U.S. corporate oligarchs ( excluding of course Sheldon Adelson , Robert Mercer, et al ) and hence likewise by the oligarch's intelligence community. Primarily because Hillary Clinton was a loyal and dependable servant of the oligarchs. Hell even Henry Kissinger and the Koch Bros. endorsed Clinton. Trump was seen as an undependable wild card with no ideology except his own opportunism and not a team player. However that did NOT make Trump an opponent of Neo Con policies, only that his Neo Con and imperialist policies differed for the Neo Con / U.S. oligarch's policies. > > Cases in point - His withdrawal of U.S. troops from the Syrian-Turkish border of the Rojave region only to redeploy them to the oil wells of North East Syria and to Saudi Arabia, His continued and expanded support of Saudi Arabia's war in Yemen, the recent Bolivian coup, the continued attempts to over throw the government of Venezuela and Nicaragua, intensification of economic and political sanctions against Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua, even subtle threats about drone war and invasion of Mexico. > > Just as the old saying about a broken clock being correct twice a day, Trump's wanting to end the cold war with Russia is what should be done, but more than likely it is so that he can focus more on belligerence in the middle east, Latin America, and especially China, as well as probable opportunistic future plans to finally be able to build a Trump hotel in Moscow which has been an ongoing 20 year failure to achieve. Then of course there was the willingness to negotiate with North Korea, but only after a schizophrenic 180 degree reversal of policy from his previous threats of attacking and his adolescent belligerent insults of " Rocket Man ". > > Impeachment of Trump will not succeed, and even if it did, do we really want to go from a bumbling buffoon like Trump to the intelligent and focused Christian fascist Mike Pence ? > The best way to get rid of Trump is to have a good Democratic candidate run against him like Sanders or Tulsi Gabbard and in the meantime publicly call out and oppose Trump's horrible policies. But that is the last thing Pelosi, Schumer and the other DNC corporate Democrats want to do. Russia gate and Ukraine Gate is an excellent distraction so they don't have to advocate for their constituents, because they do NOT want to change their Neo Con / Neo Liberal policies that a majority of the American people oppose but the corporate oligarchic DONAR CLASS supports, and the DNC does not want to do anything to disrupt their corporate money gravy train. > > Lastly, all this Russia gate, Ukraine gate and impeachment focus has done is strengthen Trump in the polls. Don't believe me go look for yourselves. Not to mention who do you think the U.S. corporate oligarch ruling class and their corporate owned media are going to support if it is a general election contest between Trump and either Sanders or Tulsi ??? > How much money does anyone want to bet me that they will secretly support Trump and do everything in their power to help him win re-election. > Not to mention, if you see what they are doing currently to a fellow billionaire like Trump, what do you think they are going to do to a President Bernie Sanders or a President Tulsi Gabbard ? > > Unfortunately too many good people have been reacting with their emotions and not their logic in regards to Trump's election, and have not really thought all of this out clearly from the beginning causes of Trump being elected to consequences of current and proposed future actions. > Trump is a symptom NOT the disease. > > David Johnson > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2019 11:20 PM > To: John W. > Cc: Peace-discuss > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda > > John-- > > Trump is being impeached because he?s the first major party candidate in 40 years to attack the neocon (more war) and neolib (more austerity) policies of all recent administrations. > > Altho? in office he's largely adopted those policies, the permanent government are afraid he?ll act on his attacks (e.g., by withdrawing from Afghanistan and Syria). > > Those attacks made him president by speaking for the growing populist wave of those who saw that Obama?s promises of prosperity weren?t fulfilled. > > Trump flipped six states that had gone for Obama in 2012 ? Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio and Florida ? in his upset victory over Clinton. > > And those states were lost by Obama voters who stayed home, rather than voting again for a Democrat nominee (Clinton). They'd seen no "hope and change.? > > So all Trump's opponents seem to have are schoolboy insults - nothing that speaks to the immiseration of the majority. > > The concentration of wealth in America continued - at an accelerating rate - in the Obama years., while wages remained flat - and Obama-Clinton war provocations of Russia and China increased. > > Since the establishment's neocon/neolib policies aren?t popular, they have only Trump?s personal failings to attack him on - which they are doing hysterically. > > So support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State/permanent government agenda - those policies of more war and more austerity: that?s what generates Trump's 'base.' > > Sanders of course speaks to those same quite real anxieties - which is why the permanent government can't allow him to be nominated: he?d win. > > Meanwhile, impeachment like Russiagate will continue, because it?s all the permanent government/liberals have: ORANGE MAN BAD! > > ?CGE > > >> On Dec 5, 2019, at 9:27 PM, John W. wrote: >> >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 5:26 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: >> >> >> >> [Mary Ann Caton] 'There is much to highlight in Bill Martin's commentary here, so try this one on for size: "Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda..." Here's the rest of what he had to say: >> >> ?This article [above], from Truthout.org, is the kind of nonsense that has become exceedingly tiresome, but also very offensive, because it just plays around with terms such as genocide, fascist, and Nazi. >> >> ?The basis for the author?s argument is Trump?s tweet saying that Baltimore is a ?disgusting, rat and rodent infested mess? and ?no human would want to live there.? The author, Nicholas Powers, turns this into Trump?s supposedly using a ?rhetoric of filth? that is aimed at those same human beings. Except of course Trump doesn?t say anything like that. Powers quotes with approval Joy Behar, as a ?Jewish voice? here (which is typical bullshit Identity Politics, as it would be easy enough to find numerous Jewish voices who would disagree with her) transposing what Trump says about rats to the Nazi use of the term ?vermin? to refer to Jews. >> >> ?Again, Trump has said nothing like that. >> >> No, the quoted tweets are absolutely correct. And of course tRump wasn't talking about Jews. He was talking about Negroes. He was pissed off at Elijah Cummings, and he said (tweeted) the first juvenile thing that popped into his benighted, hate-filled mind, as he always does. Everyone with half a brain recognized it as an extremely thinly-veiled racial slur. You can dismiss it as 'identity politics' if you want to. In any event, it's extremely bad politics, and as "leadership" it's reprehensible on a number of levels. It is indeed a "rhetoric of filth", which tRump is famous for. >> >> >> ?There?s no mention in this article about ?laying the groundwork for genocide? of Hillary Clinton?s ?basket of deplorables? comment, applied to ?half of Trump?s supporter?s,? which would amount to about thirty-one million people or so. This is conjecture on my part, but I feel that I am on solid ground: those who talk in the way that Powers does only disagree with HRC on the ?half? part. They are fine with statements of the ?dreaming of a white genocide?-sort, as long as they can get out in front of them first with some strategic virtue-signaling. Of course, the ones signaling the loudest are themselves white males, though ?educated.? But, hey, that?s a class thing, and any good liberal and leftist these days knows that talking about class is just another form of racism. >> >> ?Despite this nonsense being tiresome, not really worth paying attention to (obviously I?m engaging in a performative contradiction here), one wants to say to this author, and to Adam Schiff, etc., ?Keep talking, assh*les.? It?s obvious by now that no amount of self-exposure is going to have much effect on hardened Trump-haters, they?ll just double-down. >> >> As will the tRump lovers. So what else is new? >> >> >> A third of this is believing that most ordinary people are stupid, racist, sexist, fascists, a third is posing as some sort of ?Resistance? and the self-satisfaction that brings, and a third is in fear of not being acceptable to their celebrity icons of political correctness and therefore susceptible to being called out. >> >> ?(Hillary doubled down on her remark about deplorables, numerous times. The remark was not a ?gaff? or faux-pas, it was said with the deliberate aim of drawing a line. But this isn?t about Hillary?except in the case that she becomes the 2020 Democratic nominee, which is not at all out of the realm of possibility*?it is about all of the ordinary-people Democrats who go along with this crap, and who view other ordinary people through the lens of this line.) >> >> ?Hopefully there are some others who will see once and for all what a load of crap the Democrats and their ?Left? allies are. Significantly, the biggest move in this direction thus far is from African-Americans who have had it with being patronized and played for chumps. >> >> All I'm hearing so far is this Bill Martin doing a whole bunch of name-calling. Who in hell is he? Does he play in the same schoolyard where tRump still shoots marbles? I'm not hearing a damned thing that's even remotely intelligent so far. >> >> >> ?One thing that was useful about seeing this article posted on a liberal friend?s page is that it did make things a little more clear, to me at least, regarding the difference between liberals and the Left. >> >> ?The Left tries to stay on message with charging that Trump is a fascist, a Nazi, like Hitler. >> The liberals say this stuff too, but also they are outraged as well by Trump?s Rocky Balboa pose (thankfully, the MSM was quick to expose that dangerous ruse!), the hateful serving of fast food to the champion Clemson football team (whose players such liberals also hate, but whatever), etc. >> >> Agreed, those things are pretty trivial. But they're all part of the tRump manufactured persona, designed to appeal to his 'base' who are indeed deplorables and foolishly lap the stuff up while tRump, in reality, spends millions of our taxpayer dollars on golf outings and fancy black tie dinners at Mar-a-La-Go. Really not unlike Bruce Rauner appearing in flannel shirts in all of his TV ads when he was running for governor of Illinois, though Rauner was somewhat more dignified about it. >> >> >> ?The liberals are quick to claim that Trump supporters are not only fascist, but also stupid. The Left sometimes traffics in this language of stupidity, but in general instead claims that the sort of people who support Trump are ignorant. >> >> ?What, though, is the difference that makes a difference between anti-Trump liberals and anti-Trump leftists, if they seem fine in making common cause? >> >> ?Adam Schiff accuses Trump of ?not respecting our intelligence agencies.? It used to be that was an important aspect of the Left, not only not respecting the CIA and other parts of the ?intelligence community,? but also pulling the curtain back on them, exposing them, demonstrating why they are a horrible thing. Now we are in an upside-down world where liberals and the left go along with this stuff for the sake of impeachment, and Trump is the one pulling the curtain back. >> >> I have noticed this and find it interesting, though of course tRump himself isn't pulling the curtain back on shit, but merely deflecting and obfuscating and 'counter-punching' every waking moment But you know, the Real World where some of us live is not strictly Manichean. The obvious synthesis of this apparent contradiction or irony is that there is a difference between intelligence-gathering and the USE or MISUSE of the intelligence gathered, which is a matter of political policy. I suspect that most of the intelligence-gathering is pretty accurate, done by career professionals with no particular allegiance to political party. These are they whom Adam Schiff lauds. But then you have the political appointees like Mike Pompeo (former head of the CIA, not coincidentally), or like Rumsfeld/Powell of 15 years ago, or like the cabal in power during the Viet Nam war. In making their decisions, they act as often as not AGAINST the recommendations of their intelligence-gathering staff, or else they manufacture evidence to justify their misdeeds, and of course create the global chaos that we're all familiar with. This is who the 'Left' is railing against when they protest the actions of the CIA, for example - the POLITICAL POLICIES, not the intelligence gathering. >> >> Pay attention, Carl. There'll be a quiz on this later in the semester. >> >> >> ?Nothing better can be expected from the liberal or ?progressive? ?blue no matter who?-crowd. They?re openly down with the CIA, NSC, etc. But if you?re a ?leftist? or some other supposedly ?radical? opponent of Trump, part of the ?Resistance,? and you?re supporting this impeachment nonsense, this would be a good time to do some hard thinking.** >> >> Blah blah blah. More name calling. Bill Martin, whoever he is, doesn't like 'The Left'. We get that. I don't like Bill Martin. He's an idiot. >> >> >> *(Who will be the 2020 Democratic nominee? I?m not a gambler, but it wouldn?t be that wild of a proposition to put some money on Michelle Obama.) >> >> **(In stark terms, just to be clear ? Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda?and this assertion does not depend on coming up with a ?precise definition? of the Deep State. Certainly, from ordinary people, whether Democrats, leftists, etc., ?support for impeachment? doesn?t really mean much, since no one is asking you anyway. Your role is cheerleader for the system. Really, I think things need to be taken further: Calling out Adam Schiff and his cohort, who are fronting for the CIA and the ?intelligence community? is what is needed, which means opposition to this impeachment nonsense. If there was anything like a ?true Left? today, one that embodied the spirit of the Sixties Left, but under very different conditions?these conditions, unfortunately, having knocked the current Left for a crazy and terrible loop, to put things politely, this exposure and opposition to the impeachment Schiff-show is what would be happening.) >> >> Bullshit. tRump isn't being impeached because he's a reformer who is courageously challenging the Deep State. What a joke. He's being impeached because he has flouted the Constitution in every way imaginable. He's an amoral, narcissistic coprophage who has alienated practically every one of our allies, fractured the country domestically, assaulted the environment, and brought calumny on the United States. Sure, this telephone call with the Ukrainian leader is only a hook on which to hang the hat of impeachment, and we know that the Republican Senate isn't going to convict him anyway. But if there has ever been a President in our nation's history who has deserved to be impeached, this guy is it. Otherwise we may as well just throw the Constitution completely out the window and let the fascists run things the way they see fit. >> >> And by the way, Gentle Readers.....We've had the Deep State for quite a long time now, as Carl is always so faithful to point out, and I feel safe in saying that we will always have the Deep State. We've had war since there were human beings on the planet. tRump is not going to put an end to either of those things. It's not even in his consciousness. So why keep yammering about it? Can you really not find anything more productive to talk about and protest and work toward? Maybe something actually attainable? >> >> >> ?[Your comments are welcome, but comments about 1) my supposed obsession with Hillary (no, I?m more obsessed with liberal and left affirmation of the deplorables remark?and another important term here is ?rural?); 2) the demand to have precise definitions of things (I have been inspired/provoked by such demands to write a glossary for the book I am presently completing, but there is plenty enough to go on in the CounterPunch*** articles already published) before ?discussion? can continue (I?m not going to get into some purely semantic exercise to let people get away with siding with the CIA, okay? ?so just deal with that; and, as far as the hardened Trump-haters are concerned, who view everything through the lens of ?Trump must go, regardless of the shortcomings of the Democrats,? I?m not interested in meeting your demands in any case?that would be both impossible and pointless); 3) my ?just repeating GOP talking points,? or comments that are just name-calling?I won?t respond to such comments, and will probably delete them, because they are unhelpful and I?ve already given enough play to such things; the exception is if the comment works as good self-exposure (as they say in football, an ?own-goal?) of the person who makes the comment.] >> >> ***(I will write a separate post regarding this when I have the situation sorted, but some reading this may be interested in know that I?ve now been deplatformed by CounterPunch. I knew that I would go too far at some point, given the general trend there lately, as well-represented by a recent article by Andrew Levine (whose work, especially on Rousseau, Kant, Marx, Rawls, analytical Marxism, and Althusser, I have admired for many years), ?Get Trump First, But Then ?? (Nov. 15). I?m not angry, I will remain grateful to Jeffrey St. Clair for going as far as he has with me, though I?m a little sad and disappointed, especially because I hoped to wrap up my Trump series at CounterPunch and then put it all together in a book. Now I?ll need to do this somewhere else, I?ll let you know where?I had two articles in the pipeline, one on the impeachment nonsense, the other on the coup in Bolivia, I hope to have them out soon.)? >> >> ~ Bill Martin >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmedina67 at gmail.com Sat Dec 7 15:26:04 2019 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (kmedina67) Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2019 09:26:04 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: [OEF-Chat] Death Penalties In-Reply-To: <557108775.6702042.1575729815044@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5debc490.1c69fb81.e48f6.6f78@mx.google.com> Some interesting background and research on a concern we might share... - Karen MedinaREPORTERS? NOTES?The CondemnedThis week, The Intercept published?The Condemned, a three-year?investigation that includes a dataset tallying 7,335 individual death sentences and their outcomes. Accompanying the data are stories that illustrate different aspects of this failed system: the?racism that underpins it, the prosecutors who?wield great power to kill, and the unlikely coalitions that have formed to?fight for abolition.After years of writing about individual death penalty cases, we wanted to find a way to measure not only who has been executed and who is condemned, but how many people had been removed from death row ? a sizable but largely invisible population that exposes the myriad ways in which capital punishment is a failed policy and perversion of justice. As the Trump administration prepares to carry out the?first federal executions in 16 years, The Condemned is a damning portrait of a ?cruel and unusual? system that is carried out in our names.Liliana SeguraSenior ReporterJordan SmithSenior ReporterA Push to Repeal the Death Penalty Gains Ground Across the Western United StatesLiliana Segura, Jordan SmithAbolition of the death penalty has increasingly become a bipartisan issue, with fiscal conservatives joining reformers focused on wrongful convictions.READ MORE ?By Any Measure, Capital Punishment Is a Failed PolicyLiliana Segura, Jordan SmithMost people who have been sentenced to death in the U.S. are no longer on death row, and they haven?t been executed. Where did they go?READ MORE ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Sat Dec 7 16:32:10 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2019 10:32:10 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda In-Reply-To: <005d01d5ac44$584a5e00$08df1a00$@comcast.net> References: <005d01d5ac44$584a5e00$08df1a00$@comcast.net> Message-ID: David? I failed to make myself clear about Trump?s attacks on the Bush/Obama neocon/neolib policies: those attacks made Trump president because enough voters had learnt that Obama?s ?Hope and Change? was a lie. The attacks weren?t an announcement of what Trump would do in office. But those attacks so affrighted the political establishment that they became determined to remove Trump (Russiagate, impeachment, etc.) so he wouldn?t even have a chance to interfere with long-term anti-Russia/anti-China foreign policy. (A comprehensive statement of that constant policy is Zbigniew Brzezinski?s 1997 book, ?The Grand Chessboard.') That foreign policy is ?the CIA/DeepState agenda," because it is meant to maintain the US one-precent?s world economic dominance, in place since WWII. (It?s now under threat from the rest of the world, which is why the CIA/DeepState et al. are so vicious in maintaining it.) Trump became president because 2012 Obama voters in six states? Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio and Florida ? either stayed home or otherwise voted against Clinton in 2016. Trump flipped those six states that had gone for Obama in 2012 in his upset victory over Clinton because of the immiseration of the US majority in the Obama years, when wealth concentrated at an accelerating rate and wages remained flat. The US political establishment is determined not to let that happen again - without changing the economic and war policies that caused it. That?s their problem, and the source of the hysterical and distracting attacks on Trump. The establishment can?t win by fronting its real agenda - the Obama policies of war and austerity. But the Orange Man uttered blasphemy in criticizing them & must be punished. That?s also the only electoral strategy they have - except (horrors!) Sanders? and Gabbard?s. The establishment in a tough spot and will kill people (like Seth Rich?) to get out and resume the official killing of the last administration (and this one). Tell truth and shame the devil, CGE > On Dec 6, 2019, at 8:49 AM, David Johnson wrote: > > " Trump is being impeached because he?s the first major party candidate in 40 years to attack the neocon (more war) and neolib (more austerity) policies of all recent administrations. " > > Carl, > > As you know, I opposed Russia gate as well as the current Ukraine gate for a multitude of reasons. And I oppose impeaching Trump for this nonsense about briefly withholding weapons from Ukraine ( which is a fascist government brought to power by a CIA backed coup ) that even Obama refused to give weapons to. > Trump should be impeached first and foremost for his defying a congressional vote to end support for Saudi Arabia's genocidal war in Yemen, as Bob Naiman pointed out. > > And John Wasom, I disagree with you about Trump being the worst President who most deserves impeachment. G.W. Bush was MUCH worse than anything Trump has done ( so far ) and should have been impeached but we can thank Nancy Pelosi and the corporate Democrats for stopping that from happening, > ( Nancy Pelosi on election night Nov. 2006 - " Impeachment is off the table, impeachment is off the table " ) despite tens of thousands of local voter referendums passed across the country in 2006 ( including in the cities of Urbana and barely losing in Champaign by 2 percentage points ) calling for his impeachment for SERIOUS war crimes that cost thousands of American lives and close to a million Iraqi and Afghan lives, the passage of the police state Patriot Act, and the creation of the Guantanamo concentration camp as well as legalizing kidnappings ( renditions ), detention without charges or trial ( which did not exempt American citizens ) and torture. > Oh but now, Ellen and the rest of the ruling class and their corporate media are portraying him as a cuddly likeable guy who got a freedom medal pinned on him by Joe Biden. > > But Carl, what you write above is totally inaccurate. > > Trump is a Neo Liberal on steroids. His tax cuts to the wealthy in 2017, his anti-Labor regulations and appointments to the NLRB ( National Labor Relations Board ), his appointment of Federalist Society right-wing judges, His recent NAFTA 2.0 Trade Agreement ( USMCA ) which is even worse than the original NAFTA agreement, his proposing to cut billions of dollars from the Education Department seeking to eliminate after-school programs teacher training and grants for other school needs and a proposal that would create a $5 billion program to subsidize corporate charter schools, and his recent proposal to cut 3 million dollars from the food stamp program and making it more difficult to obtain food stamps by among other things over riding individual States ability to set its own requirements that are more generous. > All of which of course the corporate Democrats either openly support or pretend to oppose by making phony condemnations while doing nothing to prevent it. > > In terms of foreign policy, yes, Trump is and was opposed from the very beginning by the majority of U.S. corporate oligarchs ( excluding of course Sheldon Adelson , Robert Mercer, et al ) and hence likewise by the oligarch's intelligence community. Primarily because Hillary Clinton was a loyal and dependable servant of the oligarchs. Hell even Henry Kissinger and the Koch Bros. endorsed Clinton. Trump was seen as an undependable wild card with no ideology except his own opportunism and not a team player. However that did NOT make Trump an opponent of Neo Con policies, only that his Neo Con and imperialist policies differed for the Neo Con / U.S. oligarch's policies. > > Cases in point - His withdrawal of U.S. troops from the Syrian-Turkish border of the Rojave region only to redeploy them to the oil wells of North East Syria and to Saudi Arabia, His continued and expanded support of Saudi Arabia's war in Yemen, the recent Bolivian coup, the continued attempts to over throw the government of Venezuela and Nicaragua, intensification of economic and political sanctions against Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua, even subtle threats about drone war and invasion of Mexico. > > Just as the old saying about a broken clock being correct twice a day, Trump's wanting to end the cold war with Russia is what should be done, but more than likely it is so that he can focus more on belligerence in the middle east, Latin America, and especially China, as well as probable opportunistic future plans to finally be able to build a Trump hotel in Moscow which has been an ongoing 20 year failure to achieve. Then of course there was the willingness to negotiate with North Korea, but only after a schizophrenic 180 degree reversal of policy from his previous threats of attacking and his adolescent belligerent insults of " Rocket Man ". > > Impeachment of Trump will not succeed, and even if it did, do we really want to go from a bumbling buffoon like Trump to the intelligent and focused Christian fascist Mike Pence ? > The best way to get rid of Trump is to have a good Democratic candidate run against him like Sanders or Tulsi Gabbard and in the meantime publicly call out and oppose Trump's horrible policies. But that is the last thing Pelosi, Schumer and the other DNC corporate Democrats want to do. Russia gate and Ukraine Gate is an excellent distraction so they don't have to advocate for their constituents, because they do NOT want to change their Neo Con / Neo Liberal policies that a majority of the American people oppose but the corporate oligarchic DONAR CLASS supports, and the DNC does not want to do anything to disrupt their corporate money gravy train. > > Lastly, all this Russia gate, Ukraine gate and impeachment focus has done is strengthen Trump in the polls. Don't believe me go look for yourselves. Not to mention who do you think the U.S. corporate oligarch ruling class and their corporate owned media are going to support if it is a general election contest between Trump and either Sanders or Tulsi ??? > How much money does anyone want to bet me that they will secretly support Trump and do everything in their power to help him win re-election. > Not to mention, if you see what they are doing currently to a fellow billionaire like Trump, what do you think they are going to do to a President Bernie Sanders or a President Tulsi Gabbard ? > > Unfortunately too many good people have been reacting with their emotions and not their logic in regards to Trump's election, and have not really thought all of this out clearly from the beginning causes of Trump being elected to consequences of current and proposed future actions. > Trump is a symptom NOT the disease. > > David Johnson > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss > Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2019 11:20 PM > To: John W. > Cc: Peace-discuss > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda > > John-- > > Trump is being impeached because he?s the first major party candidate in 40 years to attack the neocon (more war) and neolib (more austerity) policies of all recent administrations. > > Altho? in office he's largely adopted those policies, the permanent government are afraid he?ll act on his attacks (e.g., by withdrawing from Afghanistan and Syria). > > Those attacks made him president by speaking for the growing populist wave of those who saw that Obama?s promises of prosperity weren?t fulfilled. > > Trump flipped six states that had gone for Obama in 2012 ? Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio and Florida ? in his upset victory over Clinton. > > And those states were lost by Obama voters who stayed home, rather than voting again for a Democrat nominee (Clinton). They'd seen no "hope and change.? > > So all Trump's opponents seem to have are schoolboy insults - nothing that speaks to the immiseration of the majority. > > The concentration of wealth in America continued - at an accelerating rate - in the Obama years., while wages remained flat - and Obama-Clinton war provocations of Russia and China increased. > > Since the establishment's neocon/neolib policies aren?t popular, they have only Trump?s personal failings to attack him on - which they are doing hysterically. > > So support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State/permanent government agenda - those policies of more war and more austerity: that?s what generates Trump's 'base.' > > Sanders of course speaks to those same quite real anxieties - which is why the permanent government can't allow him to be nominated: he?d win. > > Meanwhile, impeachment like Russiagate will continue, because it?s all the permanent government/liberals have: ORANGE MAN BAD! > > ?CGE > > >> On Dec 5, 2019, at 9:27 PM, John W. wrote: >> >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 5:26 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace wrote: >> >> >> >> [Mary Ann Caton] 'There is much to highlight in Bill Martin's commentary here, so try this one on for size: "Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda..." Here's the rest of what he had to say: >> >> ?This article [above], from Truthout.org, is the kind of nonsense that has become exceedingly tiresome, but also very offensive, because it just plays around with terms such as genocide, fascist, and Nazi. >> >> ?The basis for the author?s argument is Trump?s tweet saying that Baltimore is a ?disgusting, rat and rodent infested mess? and ?no human would want to live there.? The author, Nicholas Powers, turns this into Trump?s supposedly using a ?rhetoric of filth? that is aimed at those same human beings. Except of course Trump doesn?t say anything like that. Powers quotes with approval Joy Behar, as a ?Jewish voice? here (which is typical bullshit Identity Politics, as it would be easy enough to find numerous Jewish voices who would disagree with her) transposing what Trump says about rats to the Nazi use of the term ?vermin? to refer to Jews. >> >> ?Again, Trump has said nothing like that. >> >> No, the quoted tweets are absolutely correct. And of course tRump wasn't talking about Jews. He was talking about Negroes. He was pissed off at Elijah Cummings, and he said (tweeted) the first juvenile thing that popped into his benighted, hate-filled mind, as he always does. Everyone with half a brain recognized it as an extremely thinly-veiled racial slur. You can dismiss it as 'identity politics' if you want to. In any event, it's extremely bad politics, and as "leadership" it's reprehensible on a number of levels. It is indeed a "rhetoric of filth", which tRump is famous for. >> >> >> ?There?s no mention in this article about ?laying the groundwork for genocide? of Hillary Clinton?s ?basket of deplorables? comment, applied to ?half of Trump?s supporter?s,? which would amount to about thirty-one million people or so. This is conjecture on my part, but I feel that I am on solid ground: those who talk in the way that Powers does only disagree with HRC on the ?half? part. They are fine with statements of the ?dreaming of a white genocide?-sort, as long as they can get out in front of them first with some strategic virtue-signaling. Of course, the ones signaling the loudest are themselves white males, though ?educated.? But, hey, that?s a class thing, and any good liberal and leftist these days knows that talking about class is just another form of racism. >> >> ?Despite this nonsense being tiresome, not really worth paying attention to (obviously I?m engaging in a performative contradiction here), one wants to say to this author, and to Adam Schiff, etc., ?Keep talking, assh*les.? It?s obvious by now that no amount of self-exposure is going to have much effect on hardened Trump-haters, they?ll just double-down. >> >> As will the tRump lovers. So what else is new? >> >> >> A third of this is believing that most ordinary people are stupid, racist, sexist, fascists, a third is posing as some sort of ?Resistance? and the self-satisfaction that brings, and a third is in fear of not being acceptable to their celebrity icons of political correctness and therefore susceptible to being called out. >> >> ?(Hillary doubled down on her remark about deplorables, numerous times. The remark was not a ?gaff? or faux-pas, it was said with the deliberate aim of drawing a line. But this isn?t about Hillary?except in the case that she becomes the 2020 Democratic nominee, which is not at all out of the realm of possibility*?it is about all of the ordinary-people Democrats who go along with this crap, and who view other ordinary people through the lens of this line.) >> >> ?Hopefully there are some others who will see once and for all what a load of crap the Democrats and their ?Left? allies are. Significantly, the biggest move in this direction thus far is from African-Americans who have had it with being patronized and played for chumps. >> >> All I'm hearing so far is this Bill Martin doing a whole bunch of name-calling. Who in hell is he? Does he play in the same schoolyard where tRump still shoots marbles? I'm not hearing a damned thing that's even remotely intelligent so far. >> >> >> ?One thing that was useful about seeing this article posted on a liberal friend?s page is that it did make things a little more clear, to me at least, regarding the difference between liberals and the Left. >> >> ?The Left tries to stay on message with charging that Trump is a fascist, a Nazi, like Hitler. >> The liberals say this stuff too, but also they are outraged as well by Trump?s Rocky Balboa pose (thankfully, the MSM was quick to expose that dangerous ruse!), the hateful serving of fast food to the champion Clemson football team (whose players such liberals also hate, but whatever), etc. >> >> Agreed, those things are pretty trivial. But they're all part of the tRump manufactured persona, designed to appeal to his 'base' who are indeed deplorables and foolishly lap the stuff up while tRump, in reality, spends millions of our taxpayer dollars on golf outings and fancy black tie dinners at Mar-a-La-Go. Really not unlike Bruce Rauner appearing in flannel shirts in all of his TV ads when he was running for governor of Illinois, though Rauner was somewhat more dignified about it. >> >> >> ?The liberals are quick to claim that Trump supporters are not only fascist, but also stupid. The Left sometimes traffics in this language of stupidity, but in general instead claims that the sort of people who support Trump are ignorant. >> >> ?What, though, is the difference that makes a difference between anti-Trump liberals and anti-Trump leftists, if they seem fine in making common cause? >> >> ?Adam Schiff accuses Trump of ?not respecting our intelligence agencies.? It used to be that was an important aspect of the Left, not only not respecting the CIA and other parts of the ?intelligence community,? but also pulling the curtain back on them, exposing them, demonstrating why they are a horrible thing. Now we are in an upside-down world where liberals and the left go along with this stuff for the sake of impeachment, and Trump is the one pulling the curtain back. >> >> I have noticed this and find it interesting, though of course tRump himself isn't pulling the curtain back on shit, but merely deflecting and obfuscating and 'counter-punching' every waking moment But you know, the Real World where some of us live is not strictly Manichean. The obvious synthesis of this apparent contradiction or irony is that there is a difference between intelligence-gathering and the USE or MISUSE of the intelligence gathered, which is a matter of political policy. I suspect that most of the intelligence-gathering is pretty accurate, done by career professionals with no particular allegiance to political party. These are they whom Adam Schiff lauds. But then you have the political appointees like Mike Pompeo (former head of the CIA, not coincidentally), or like Rumsfeld/Powell of 15 years ago, or like the cabal in power during the Viet Nam war. In making their decisions, they act as often as not AGAINST the recommendations of their intelligence-gathering staff, or else they manufacture evidence to justify their misdeeds, and of course create the global chaos that we're all familiar with. This is who the 'Left' is railing against when they protest the actions of the CIA, for example - the POLITICAL POLICIES, not the intelligence gathering. >> >> Pay attention, Carl. There'll be a quiz on this later in the semester. >> >> >> ?Nothing better can be expected from the liberal or ?progressive? ?blue no matter who?-crowd. They?re openly down with the CIA, NSC, etc. But if you?re a ?leftist? or some other supposedly ?radical? opponent of Trump, part of the ?Resistance,? and you?re supporting this impeachment nonsense, this would be a good time to do some hard thinking.** >> >> Blah blah blah. More name calling. Bill Martin, whoever he is, doesn't like 'The Left'. We get that. I don't like Bill Martin. He's an idiot. >> >> >> *(Who will be the 2020 Democratic nominee? I?m not a gambler, but it wouldn?t be that wild of a proposition to put some money on Michelle Obama.) >> >> **(In stark terms, just to be clear ? Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda?and this assertion does not depend on coming up with a ?precise definition? of the Deep State. Certainly, from ordinary people, whether Democrats, leftists, etc., ?support for impeachment? doesn?t really mean much, since no one is asking you anyway. Your role is cheerleader for the system. Really, I think things need to be taken further: Calling out Adam Schiff and his cohort, who are fronting for the CIA and the ?intelligence community? is what is needed, which means opposition to this impeachment nonsense. If there was anything like a ?true Left? today, one that embodied the spirit of the Sixties Left, but under very different conditions?these conditions, unfortunately, having knocked the current Left for a crazy and terrible loop, to put things politely, this exposure and opposition to the impeachment Schiff-show is what would be happening.) >> >> Bullshit. tRump isn't being impeached because he's a reformer who is courageously challenging the Deep State. What a joke. He's being impeached because he has flouted the Constitution in every way imaginable. He's an amoral, narcissistic coprophage who has alienated practically every one of our allies, fractured the country domestically, assaulted the environment, and brought calumny on the United States. Sure, this telephone call with the Ukrainian leader is only a hook on which to hang the hat of impeachment, and we know that the Republican Senate isn't going to convict him anyway. But if there has ever been a President in our nation's history who has deserved to be impeached, this guy is it. Otherwise we may as well just throw the Constitution completely out the window and let the fascists run things the way they see fit. >> >> And by the way, Gentle Readers.....We've had the Deep State for quite a long time now, as Carl is always so faithful to point out, and I feel safe in saying that we will always have the Deep State. We've had war since there were human beings on the planet. tRump is not going to put an end to either of those things. It's not even in his consciousness. So why keep yammering about it? Can you really not find anything more productive to talk about and protest and work toward? Maybe something actually attainable? >> >> >> ?[Your comments are welcome, but comments about 1) my supposed obsession with Hillary (no, I?m more obsessed with liberal and left affirmation of the deplorables remark?and another important term here is ?rural?); 2) the demand to have precise definitions of things (I have been inspired/provoked by such demands to write a glossary for the book I am presently completing, but there is plenty enough to go on in the CounterPunch*** articles already published) before ?discussion? can continue (I?m not going to get into some purely semantic exercise to let people get away with siding with the CIA, okay? ?so just deal with that; and, as far as the hardened Trump-haters are concerned, who view everything through the lens of ?Trump must go, regardless of the shortcomings of the Democrats,? I?m not interested in meeting your demands in any case?that would be both impossible and pointless); 3) my ?just repeating GOP talking points,? or comments that are just name-calling?I won?t respond to such comments, and will probably delete them, because they are unhelpful and I?ve already given enough play to such things; the exception is if the comment works as good self-exposure (as they say in football, an ?own-goal?) of the person who makes the comment.] >> >> ***(I will write a separate post regarding this when I have the situation sorted, but some reading this may be interested in know that I?ve now been deplatformed by CounterPunch. I knew that I would go too far at some point, given the general trend there lately, as well-represented by a recent article by Andrew Levine (whose work, especially on Rousseau, Kant, Marx, Rawls, analytical Marxism, and Althusser, I have admired for many years), ?Get Trump First, But Then ?? (Nov. 15). I?m not angry, I will remain grateful to Jeffrey St. Clair for going as far as he has with me, though I?m a little sad and disappointed, especially because I hoped to wrap up my Trump series at CounterPunch and then put it all together in a book. Now I?ll need to do this somewhere else, I?ll let you know where?I had two articles in the pipeline, one on the impeachment nonsense, the other on the coup in Bolivia, I hope to have them out soon.)? >> >> ~ Bill Martin >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Sun Dec 8 15:46:08 2019 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2019 09:46:08 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes In-Reply-To: <9CCB27B0-FE59-4188-9E6C-5210B573A0D1@illinois.edu> References: <74971abe-85a2-abb5-4fee-af173f9b2150@forestfield.org> <9CCB27B0-FE59-4188-9E6C-5210B573A0D1@illinois.edu> Message-ID: Mort, I appreciate your comments and critique, and would be more than happy to understand beyond that shadow of the doubt that these indeed were "false flag" operations. I certainly don't have the technical competence to judge either Postol's article are the critique of his article by Jefferson Morley on this weekend's Counterpunch, which has also featured Louis Proyect's rejection of the "false flag" thesis. In any event, these discussions about Douma etc. obscure larger debates about the nature and origins of the regime change operation, which only feeds the "Assadist" charges against various characters. Nevertheless, I am indeed skeptical about someone like Vanessa Beeley, who seems naive to me in her regard for the Syrian regime. Unfortunately, the nature of the discussions around OPCW etc. are that people talk past each other, they never debate in good faith. Even given the rare opportunity to actually deploy scientific evidence and methodology, there seems to be no good faith effort to ascertain the evidence and induce whatever truth might be rigorously concluded in relation to a clear methodology. I don't think it's by accident that such a forum does not really exist, as Postol implied in his interview with Aaron Mate. DG On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 11:20 PM Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > My response to the show discussions is that it was at best mixed. It ended > with reflections of David Green expressing doubts about the Douma incident, > which basically expressed his ignorance. T. Postal was pretty clear about > what could have occurred. The levels of chlorine gas found was said to be > background Chlorine levels, but more importantly there were the leaks of > withheld information by the two whistleblowers of the OECD. Seemed pretty > clear to me that this was a false flag operation. > The opening discussion about how identity politics obscures the class > aspect of inequities I found to be turgid, whatever the ambiguous truths > are to the arguments presented. Then there came the nonsensical sly > apologetics regarding what Trump really wants. Caitlin Johnstone had a > pertinent discussion about this [ > https://consortiumnews.com/2019/11/19/25-times-trump-has-been-dangerously-hawkish-on-russia/], > leaving aside Trump's actions towards Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, Yemen, > Bolivia, Iran, Syria,? And calling Assad truely a monster?? seemd > gratuitous. > But the discussion about the Democratic candidates, Harris and > Butagieg(sp?) seemed just right, as did the remarks about the weird > impeachment phenomenon. > > On Dec 6, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > Good show > > My thoughts while watching: > > It might be of value to mention that CLR James, author of the Black > Jacobins, Adolph Reed and others discussing ?race as not the issue, focus > should be on class,? are not white. In a recent interview with Adolph Reed > he claimed to have been a former Black Panther. > > Many believe Kamala Harris failure to generate support, was due to her > tough law and order record when a DA in SF. She was no liberal. She is now > playing the race card by claiming, ?America isn?t ready for a woman > President, a black woman President.? > > As to Pete Buttagieg, it might be worth promoting the podcast discussion > referred to by Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal. Their interview with > journalist Peter Van Buren was very insightful. My employer had me charge > Kinsey Consultants $1,000 an hour, consulting with me. Had I known what I > know now, I would have charged double. > > > https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video > < > https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video > > > > Louis Proyect, the former ISO leadership, the local Black Rose Anarchists, > and many others have lost credibility as ?Leftists,? when they support the > USG intervention and war in Syria. Many are Trotskyist organizations, as > claimed by Diana Johnstone, but not all, the WSWS.ORG does not support > imperialism in Syria. > > Socialists/Communists generally do not support imperialism in Syria or > anywhere else, if they do one should question there true intentions. > > > > > > On Dec 6, 2019, at 16:12, J.B. Nicholson via Peace < > peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > News from Neptune #442 > A "Fight Race Reductionism" edition > Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6tW-stKUKc > > A list of links to items referenced on the show. > > Tariq Ali on "A Conversation with C.L.R. James" > https://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1980/07/tariq-ali.htm > > Briahna Gray on "Beware the Race Reductionist" > https://theintercept.com/2018/08/26/beware-the-race-reductionist/ > > Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian Gordon Wood on the New York > Times? 1619 Project" > https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html > > Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian James McPherson on the New > York Times? 1619 Project" > https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html > > "Black Marxism" by Cedric Robinson > Published: October 2005 > Complete book: > https://libcom.org/files/Black%20Marxism-Cedric%20J.%20Robinson.pdf > Paperback ISBN: 978-0-8078-4829-6 > eBook ISBN: 978-0-8078-7612-1 > > Gregory Myerson on "Tortilla Curtain and The Ecology of Fear" > https://projects.ncsu.edu/project/acontracorriente/fall_04/Meyerson.pdf > > "The Wages of Whiteness: Race and the Making of the American Working > Class" by David Roediger > Complete book: > https://caringlabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/roediger-the-wages-of-whiteness-race-and-the-making-of-the-american-working-class.pdf > > Noel Ignatiev and "Race Traitor" > Winter 2005 number 16: > https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Race-Traitor-%E2%84%96-16-Winter-2005.pdf > > Articles about Noel Ignatiev > > https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/15/noel-ignatiev-remembering-a-comrade-and-a-friend/ > > http://www.renegadetribune.com/genocidal-jew-noel-ignatiev-is-dead-good-riddance/ > > "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev > ISBN: 0415918251 > ISBN13: 9780415918251 > > Theodore W. Allen on "On Roediger's Wages of Whiteness" > http://www.elegantbrain.com/edu4/classes/readings/race-roediger-allen.html > > Cedric Johnson on "The Wages of Roediger: Why Three Decades of Whiteness > Studies Has Not Produced the Left We Need" > > https://nonsite.org/article/the-wages-of-roediger-why-three-decades-of-whiteness-studies-has-not-produced-the-left-we-need > > > > > Barbara J. Fields on "Slavery, Race and Ideology in the United States of > America" > > https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2763-slavery-race-and-ideology-in-the-united-states-of-america > > David Green's "Wealth gap" post to peace-discuss > > https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051656.html > > > > > David Green's recent letters to the editor of the News-Gazette > > https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-harassment-study-is-silly-propaganda/article_9d4eee6b-a8fa-5d8a-8609-169c0d256af9.html > -- "Harassment study is silly propaganda" > > https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor-concerns-voiced-about-bend-the-arc/article_99b2ac36-4279-5cad-8b60-892ca30dde6e.html > -- "Concerns voiced about Bend the Arc" > > C. G. Estabrook on News-Gazette?s feature ?Those Who Served? weekly > feature in a letter to the News-Gazette > > https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-u-s-has-killed-millions-in/article_87b213e5-9f21-5acf-8f54-df41b18d026d.html > > Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow" > https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon#Gravity's_Rainbow_(1973) > > > > > > Moderate Rebels on "What was Pete Buttigieg doing in Iraq?: US gov > whistleblower on war profiteering and corruption" > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9V-HlSyiwE > > https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/moderaterebels/Moderate_Rebels_Pete_Buttigieg_Iraq_Peter_Van_Buren.mp3?dest-id=553365 > > Alicia Luke on "Buttigieg Admits No Combat Ribbon From Deployment To > Afghanistan" > > https://freedomoutpost.com/buttigieg-admits-no-combat-ribbon-from-deployment-to-afghanistan/ > > > > > Louis Proyect on "Douma, Chlorine Gas and Occam?s Razor" > > https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/22/douma-chlorine-gas-and-occams-razor/ > > Jefferson Morley on "Why the Douma Chemical Attack Wasn?t a ?Managed > Massacre?" > > https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/06/why-the-douma-chemical-attack-wasnt-a-managed-massacre/ > > > > > > J.B. Nicholson's notes > https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015404.html > > https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051610.html > > -J > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brussel at illinois.edu Sun Dec 8 20:53:38 2019 From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2019 20:53:38 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes In-Reply-To: References: <74971abe-85a2-abb5-4fee-af173f9b2150@forestfield.org> <9CCB27B0-FE59-4188-9E6C-5210B573A0D1@illinois.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for your comments, David. I can understand why you have your doubts reading the Morley and Proyect Counterpunch articles. As for me, of course, I wasn?t ?there?, so I too must rely on impressions gleaned from what I read and surmise. I know how important it is for the ?Empire? to subdue Syria (and Iraq, Iran, Yemen, and any other resistors to U.S.interests), and I know how the U.S., via the CIA and its collaborators and proxies, White Helmets included, hides its dirty hands for its ?vital? interests. It also is reasonable to wonder why Assad would so blatantly attack targets with toxic gases/chemicals while the U.S. so diligently watches for anything suspicious, all while Assad forces have been gaining control of most of Syria, his country. The U.S. needs little excuse to attack and dismember Syria, only partially restrained by the presence of Russian forces thereabouts. I?m sure you know all this. But getting back to th CP articles, which display implicit faith in Human Rights Watch and the OPCW. I?ve long concuded that HRW is not at all a neutral agent. It, with outfits like the NED and USAID, has consistently taken up the cause of American interests. As noted, the White Helmets have been agents of the UK, the USA and others (Emerites, Saudis?) in the fight against Assad. And Louis Proyect, from what I read, is on the same wavelength as the ISO, vehemently anti-Assad for ideological reasons of some sort. However Assad may have been compromised by former behavior, he is currently resisting U.S. control of his land, aided by Iran and Russia, and is in the gunsights of Israel. For me, this is a reason to be defended as long as he so continues. Morley claims to be neutral in his assessments, but he takes for granted the results of the OPCW, albeit while giving some credence to those who were not permied to air their disagreements with the OPCW assessments. I have more faith in the analyses of Caitlin Johnstone, Jonathan Steele, Max Blumenthal, Aaron Mat?, Robert Fisk and others than of those like Morley and Proyect (and Counterpunch?) now trying to cast doubt on what seems obvious to opponents to what the U.S. and its clients have been wreaking in the ME and elsewhere. As for Postol, having had trouble getting published by U.S. media is quite unsurprising. Cynicism?! The Managegement of Savagery, by Max Blumenthal, although now a little dated, is a better reference for what and how to regard the events in that part of the world. A cogent summary of the Douma story is given by https://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/1199860236946935808?s=20 which concludes that a false flag operation had taken place. On Dec 8, 2019, at 9:46 AM, David Green > wrote: Mort, I appreciate your comments and critique, and would be more than happy to understand beyond that shadow of the doubt that these indeed were "false flag" operations. I certainly don't have the technical competence to judge either Postol's article are the critique of his article by Jefferson Morley on this weekend's Counterpunch, which has also featured Louis Proyect's rejection of the "false flag" thesis. In any event, these discussions about Douma etc. obscure larger debates about the nature and origins of the regime change operation, which only feeds the "Assadist" charges against various characters. Nevertheless, I am indeed skeptical about someone like Vanessa Beeley, who seems naive to me in her regard for the Syrian regime. Unfortunately, the nature of the discussions around OPCW etc. are that people talk past each other, they never debate in good faith. Even given the rare opportunity to actually deploy scientific evidence and methodology, there seems to be no good faith effort to ascertain the evidence and induce whatever truth might be rigorously concluded in relation to a clear methodology. I don't think it's by accident that such a forum does not really exist, as Postol implied in his interview with Aaron Mate. DG On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 11:20 PM Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss > wrote: My response to the show discussions is that it was at best mixed. It ended with reflections of David Green expressing doubts about the Douma incident, which basically expressed his ignorance. T. Postal was pretty clear about what could have occurred. The levels of chlorine gas found was said to be background Chlorine levels, but more importantly there were the leaks of withheld information by the two whistleblowers of the OECD. Seemed pretty clear to me that this was a false flag operation. The opening discussion about how identity politics obscures the class aspect of inequities I found to be turgid, whatever the ambiguous truths are to the arguments presented. Then there came the nonsensical sly apologetics regarding what Trump really wants. Caitlin Johnstone had a pertinent discussion about this [https://consortiumnews.com/2019/11/19/25-times-trump-has-been-dangerously-hawkish-on-russia/], leaving aside Trump's actions towards Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, Yemen, Bolivia, Iran, Syria,? And calling Assad truely a monster?? seemd gratuitous. But the discussion about the Democratic candidates, Harris and Butagieg(sp?) seemed just right, as did the remarks about the weird impeachment phenomenon. On Dec 6, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: Good show My thoughts while watching: It might be of value to mention that CLR James, author of the Black Jacobins, Adolph Reed and others discussing ?race as not the issue, focus should be on class,? are not white. In a recent interview with Adolph Reed he claimed to have been a former Black Panther. Many believe Kamala Harris failure to generate support, was due to her tough law and order record when a DA in SF. She was no liberal. She is now playing the race card by claiming, ?America isn?t ready for a woman President, a black woman President.? As to Pete Buttagieg, it might be worth promoting the podcast discussion referred to by Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal. Their interview with journalist Peter Van Buren was very insightful. My employer had me charge Kinsey Consultants $1,000 an hour, consulting with me. Had I known what I know now, I would have charged double. https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video Louis Proyect, the former ISO leadership, the local Black Rose Anarchists, and many others have lost credibility as ?Leftists,? when they support the USG intervention and war in Syria. Many are Trotskyist organizations, as claimed by Diana Johnstone, but not all, the WSWS.ORG does not support imperialism in Syria. Socialists/Communists generally do not support imperialism in Syria or anywhere else, if they do one should question there true intentions. On Dec 6, 2019, at 16:12, J.B. Nicholson via Peace > wrote: News from Neptune #442 A "Fight Race Reductionism" edition Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6tW-stKUKc A list of links to items referenced on the show. Tariq Ali on "A Conversation with C.L.R. James" https://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1980/07/tariq-ali.htm Briahna Gray on "Beware the Race Reductionist" https://theintercept.com/2018/08/26/beware-the-race-reductionist/ Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian Gordon Wood on the New York Times? 1619 Project" https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian James McPherson on the New York Times? 1619 Project" https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html "Black Marxism" by Cedric Robinson Published: October 2005 Complete book: https://libcom.org/files/Black%20Marxism-Cedric%20J.%20Robinson.pdf Paperback ISBN: 978-0-8078-4829-6 eBook ISBN: 978-0-8078-7612-1 Gregory Myerson on "Tortilla Curtain and The Ecology of Fear" https://projects.ncsu.edu/project/acontracorriente/fall_04/Meyerson.pdf "The Wages of Whiteness: Race and the Making of the American Working Class" by David Roediger Complete book: https://caringlabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/roediger-the-wages-of-whiteness-race-and-the-making-of-the-american-working-class.pdf Noel Ignatiev and "Race Traitor" Winter 2005 number 16: https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Race-Traitor-%E2%84%96-16-Winter-2005.pdf Articles about Noel Ignatiev https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/15/noel-ignatiev-remembering-a-comrade-and-a-friend/ http://www.renegadetribune.com/genocidal-jew-noel-ignatiev-is-dead-good-riddance/ "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev ISBN: 0415918251 ISBN13: 9780415918251 Theodore W. Allen on "On Roediger's Wages of Whiteness" http://www.elegantbrain.com/edu4/classes/readings/race-roediger-allen.html Cedric Johnson on "The Wages of Roediger: Why Three Decades of Whiteness Studies Has Not Produced the Left We Need" https://nonsite.org/article/the-wages-of-roediger-why-three-decades-of-whiteness-studies-has-not-produced-the-left-we-need Barbara J. Fields on "Slavery, Race and Ideology in the United States of America" https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2763-slavery-race-and-ideology-in-the-united-states-of-america David Green's "Wealth gap" post to peace-discuss https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051656.html David Green's recent letters to the editor of the News-Gazette https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-harassment-study-is-silly-propaganda/article_9d4eee6b-a8fa-5d8a-8609-169c0d256af9.html -- "Harassment study is silly propaganda" https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor-concerns-voiced-about-bend-the-arc/article_99b2ac36-4279-5cad-8b60-892ca30dde6e.html -- "Concerns voiced about Bend the Arc" C. G. Estabrook on News-Gazette?s feature ?Those Who Served? weekly feature in a letter to the News-Gazette https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-u-s-has-killed-millions-in/article_87b213e5-9f21-5acf-8f54-df41b18d026d.html Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow" https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon#Gravity's_Rainbow_(1973) Moderate Rebels on "What was Pete Buttigieg doing in Iraq?: US gov whistleblower on war profiteering and corruption" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9V-HlSyiwE https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/moderaterebels/Moderate_Rebels_Pete_Buttigieg_Iraq_Peter_Van_Buren.mp3?dest-id=553365 Alicia Luke on "Buttigieg Admits No Combat Ribbon From Deployment To Afghanistan" https://freedomoutpost.com/buttigieg-admits-no-combat-ribbon-from-deployment-to-afghanistan/ Louis Proyect on "Douma, Chlorine Gas and Occam?s Razor" https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/22/douma-chlorine-gas-and-occams-razor/ Jefferson Morley on "Why the Douma Chemical Attack Wasn?t a ?Managed Massacre?" https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/06/why-the-douma-chemical-attack-wasnt-a-managed-massacre/ J.B. Nicholson's notes https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015404.html https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051610.html -J _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Sun Dec 8 23:27:20 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2019 17:27:20 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes In-Reply-To: References: <74971abe-85a2-abb5-4fee-af173f9b2150@forestfield.org> <9CCB27B0-FE59-4188-9E6C-5210B573A0D1@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <008b01d5ae1f$0a1141e0$1e33c5a0$@comcast.net> Louis Proyect is a Shachtmanite pseudo Leftist who is a pro U.S. imperialist agent of the U.S. State Department and the National Endowment for Democracy. He has ZERO credibility. David J. From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of David Green via Peace-discuss Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2019 9:46 AM To: Brussel, Morton K Cc: Peace Discuss; J.B. Nicholson; Peace; David Green; Karen Aram; C G Estabrook Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes Mort, I appreciate your comments and critique, and would be more than happy to understand beyond that shadow of the doubt that these indeed were "false flag" operations. I certainly don't have the technical competence to judge either Postol's article are the critique of his article by Jefferson Morley on this weekend's Counterpunch, which has also featured Louis Proyect's rejection of the "false flag" thesis. In any event, these discussions about Douma etc. obscure larger debates about the nature and origins of the regime change operation, which only feeds the "Assadist" charges against various characters. Nevertheless, I am indeed skeptical about someone like Vanessa Beeley, who seems naive to me in her regard for the Syrian regime. Unfortunately, the nature of the discussions around OPCW etc. are that people talk past each other, they never debate in good faith. Even given the rare opportunity to actually deploy scientific evidence and methodology, there seems to be no good faith effort to ascertain the evidence and induce whatever truth might be rigorously concluded in relation to a clear methodology. I don't think it's by accident that such a forum does not really exist, as Postol implied in his interview with Aaron Mate. DG On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 11:20 PM Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss wrote: My response to the show discussions is that it was at best mixed. It ended with reflections of David Green expressing doubts about the Douma incident, which basically expressed his ignorance. T. Postal was pretty clear about what could have occurred. The levels of chlorine gas found was said to be background Chlorine levels, but more importantly there were the leaks of withheld information by the two whistleblowers of the OECD. Seemed pretty clear to me that this was a false flag operation. The opening discussion about how identity politics obscures the class aspect of inequities I found to be turgid, whatever the ambiguous truths are to the arguments presented. Then there came the nonsensical sly apologetics regarding what Trump really wants. Caitlin Johnstone had a pertinent discussion about this [https://consortiumnews.com/2019/11/19/25-times-trump-has-been-dangerously-hawkish-on-russia/], leaving aside Trump's actions towards Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, Yemen, Bolivia, Iran, Syria,? And calling Assad truely a monster?? seemd gratuitous. But the discussion about the Democratic candidates, Harris and Butagieg(sp?) seemed just right, as did the remarks about the weird impeachment phenomenon. On Dec 6, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: Good show My thoughts while watching: It might be of value to mention that CLR James, author of the Black Jacobins, Adolph Reed and others discussing ?race as not the issue, focus should be on class,? are not white. In a recent interview with Adolph Reed he claimed to have been a former Black Panther. Many believe Kamala Harris failure to generate support, was due to her tough law and order record when a DA in SF. She was no liberal. She is now playing the race card by claiming, ?America isn?t ready for a woman President, a black woman President.? As to Pete Buttagieg, it might be worth promoting the podcast discussion referred to by Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal. Their interview with journalist Peter Van Buren was very insightful. My employer had me charge Kinsey Consultants $1,000 an hour, consulting with me. Had I known what I know now, I would have charged double. https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121 ¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video ¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video> Louis Proyect, the former ISO leadership, the local Black Rose Anarchists, and many others have lost credibility as ?Leftists,? when they support the USG intervention and war in Syria. Many are Trotskyist organizations, as claimed by Diana Johnstone, but not all, the WSWS.ORG does not support imperialism in Syria. Socialists/Communists generally do not support imperialism in Syria or anywhere else, if they do one should question there true intentions. On Dec 6, 2019, at 16:12, J.B. Nicholson via Peace wrote: News from Neptune #442 A "Fight Race Reductionism" edition Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6tW-stKUKc A list of links to items referenced on the show. Tariq Ali on "A Conversation with C.L.R. James" https://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1980/07/tariq-ali.htm Briahna Gray on "Beware the Race Reductionist" https://theintercept.com/2018/08/26/beware-the-race-reductionist/ Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian Gordon Wood on the New York Times? 1619 Project" https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian James McPherson on the New York Times? 1619 Project" https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html "Black Marxism" by Cedric Robinson Published: October 2005 Complete book: https://libcom.org/files/Black%20Marxism-Cedric%20J.%20Robinson.pdf Paperback ISBN: 978-0-8078-4829-6 eBook ISBN: 978-0-8078-7612-1 Gregory Myerson on "Tortilla Curtain and The Ecology of Fear" https://projects.ncsu.edu/project/acontracorriente/fall_04/Meyerson.pdf "The Wages of Whiteness: Race and the Making of the American Working Class" by David Roediger Complete book: https://caringlabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/roediger-the-wages-of-whiteness-race-and-the-making-of-the-american-working-class.pdf Noel Ignatiev and "Race Traitor" Winter 2005 number 16: https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Race-Traitor-%E2%84%96-16-Winter-2005.pdf Articles about Noel Ignatiev https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/15/noel-ignatiev-remembering-a-comrade-and-a-friend/ http://www.renegadetribune.com/genocidal-jew-noel-ignatiev-is-dead-good-riddance/ "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev ISBN: 0415918251 ISBN13: 9780415918251 Theodore W. Allen on "On Roediger's Wages of Whiteness" http://www.elegantbrain.com/edu4/classes/readings/race-roediger-allen.html Cedric Johnson on "The Wages of Roediger: Why Three Decades of Whiteness Studies Has Not Produced the Left We Need" https://nonsite.org/article/the-wages-of-roediger-why-three-decades-of-whiteness-studies-has-not-produced-the-left-we-need Barbara J. Fields on "Slavery, Race and Ideology in the United States of America" https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2763-slavery-race-and-ideology-in-the-united-states-of-america David Green's "Wealth gap" post to peace-discuss https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051656.html David Green's recent letters to the editor of the News-Gazette https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-harassment-study-is-silly-propaganda/article_9d4eee6b-a8fa-5d8a-8609-169c0d256af9.html -- "Harassment study is silly propaganda" https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor-concerns-voiced-about-bend-the-arc/article_99b2ac36-4279-5cad-8b60-892ca30dde6e.html -- "Concerns voiced about Bend the Arc" C. G. Estabrook on News-Gazette?s feature ?Those Who Served? weekly feature in a letter to the News-Gazette https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-u-s-has-killed-millions-in/article_87b213e5-9f21-5acf-8f54-df41b18d026d.html Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow" https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon#Gravity's_Rainbow_(1973) Moderate Rebels on "What was Pete Buttigieg doing in Iraq?: US gov whistleblower on war profiteering and corruption" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9V-HlSyiwE https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/moderaterebels/Moderate_Rebels_Pete_Buttigieg_Iraq_Peter_Van_Buren.mp3?dest-id=553365 Alicia Luke on "Buttigieg Admits No Combat Ribbon From Deployment To Afghanistan" https://freedomoutpost.com/buttigieg-admits-no-combat-ribbon-from-deployment-to-afghanistan/ Louis Proyect on "Douma, Chlorine Gas and Occam?s Razor" https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/22/douma-chlorine-gas-and-occams-razor/ Jefferson Morley on "Why the Douma Chemical Attack Wasn?t a ?Managed Massacre?" https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/06/why-the-douma-chemical-attack-wasnt-a-managed-massacre/ J.B. Nicholson's notes https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015404.html https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051610.html -J _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From naiman.uiuc at gmail.com Mon Dec 9 08:46:32 2019 From: naiman.uiuc at gmail.com (Robert Naiman) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 03:46:32 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] #UkraineImpeachment & the WASPs on the Train Message-ID: https://www.facebook.com/robert.naiman/posts/10158918655922656 #UkraineImpeachment & the WASPs on the Train If you oppose #UkraineImpeachment, you enable Trump. If you support #UkraineImpeachment, you enable Warmonger Pelosi. That?s essentially a choice between, on the one hand, eating dog poo, and on the other hand, eating dog poo. The Pelosi-Trump ?argument? about #UkraineImpeachment echoes the old Jewish joke about the two WASPs on the train arguing about whether to open or close the window. The argument gets so loud that a train conductor is called over to mediate. ?If the window is open,? the one WASP says, ?I shall catch cold and die.? ?If the window is closed,? the other WASP says, ?I shall suffocate.? The conductor is at a loss for how to resolve the dispute and so welcomes the aid offer of an elderly Jewish woman sitting nearby. ?First open the window,? the Jewish woman advises. ?That will kill one. Then close the window. That will kill the other. Then we?ll have peace.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Mon Dec 9 14:44:18 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 08:44:18 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Another U.S. Regime Change Operation Is Taking Shape In Mexico Message-ID: <003e01d5ae9f$23c60230$6b520690$@comcast.net> POPULAR RESISTANCE.ORG Another U.S. Regime Change Operation Is Taking Shape In Mexico By Staff, Rainershea.com December 7, 2019 | Educate! https://popularresistance-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/2017/12/1googleno tice.png Above Photo: From Rainershea.com When it comes to Mexico, one can at this point easily spot the signs of a brewing U.S. regime change operation. Since Mexico?s president Andr?s Manuel L?pez Obrador was elected last year, he?s been thoroughly vilified by the U.S. media. After Brazil?s fascist president Jair Bolsonaro was elected, the Financial Times? John Paul Rathbone even argued that Obrador is a greater threat to liberal democracy than Bolsonaro. Such views of Obrador have come from claims that he?s an authoritarian, or ?too strong? as the Washington Post recently put it. >From the perspective of the global capitalist class, Obrador is indeed a much bigger threat than Bolsonaro. Bolsonaro?s agenda of neoliberal hyper-capitalism made plutocrats around the world celebrate his election, while the presence of the anti-neoliberal Obrador has rattled markets. In March, Obrador declared that ?The neoliberal model and its economic policy of pillage and handouts are abolished? in Mexico, starting on a 2019-through-2024 plan to undo the country?s privatization and redistribute wealth. Since Obrador has given Asylum to Evo Morales and said that Morales is the victim of a coup, the U.S. has gained further interest in advancing regime change in Mexico. As the international implications of the Bolivia coup have developed, it?s become more clear how the U.S. aims to destabilize and take over Mexico. Last week, Trump declared that he?s going to classify Mexico?s cartels as terrorist groups, opening the possibility for military intervention in Mexico. This has gone along with the Mexican right?s recent efforts to attack Obrador for a recent botched raid on the Sinaloa Cartel, a cry of outrage which the U.S. media has amplified through headlines like ?Mexico loses its sovereignty to cartels.? The fact that the right-wing President Felipe Calder?n was the one who helped create the rise of the Sinaloa Cartel has been omitted from the prevailing narrative about this incident. Washington seeks to revamp Mexico?s destructive war on drugs so that it can exploit these ruptures in Obrador?s control over the country. Trump and some Democrats are willing to send in troops to make this happen, raising the possibility of yet another U.S. war against Mexico. If Washington gets its way, Obrador will be replaced with a U.S.-backed neoliberal president as soon as possible, perhaps through a military coup. The victory of Washington?s plans for Mexico depend on the popular acceptance of the narrative that Obrador is an aspiring dictator who must be removed; to advance this narrative, the U.S. media has compared Obrador to Turkey?s genocidal far-right president Recep Erdogan, creating the perception that Obrador is part of the worldwide trend of anti-democratic populist leaders. But Obrador?s populism isn?t reactionary or authoritarian like the phony right-wing ?populism? of Trump, Erdogan, and Bolsonaro. He?s won his great support by delivering upon his promises for lifting people out of poverty, and by helping advance the gains of Mexico?s indigenous communities. Far from being the strongman that the U.S. media makes him out to be, he?s much more pro-democracy than his reactionary predecessors, and within mainstream Mexican politics he?s uniquely in favor of the rights of poor and working people. Obrador only seeks to reform capitalism, and he?s increased migrant deportations and carried out self-described ?austerity budgets.? But in terms of the issue of imperialism-which is the issue that American socialists should prioritize the most when they?re deciding whether or not to support foreign leaders-Obrador is not on the side of the U.S. empire. He therefore deserves to be supported, and to be defended when necessary. This is the gist of how anti-imperialists should view Mexico right now; it?s a predictable situation of the U.S. characterizing a disfavored leader as a tyrant so that it can get them out of power. What?s unusual about this regime change project is the global geopolitical dynamic that surrounds it. The U.S. is rapidly losing its global influence, an imperial decline that correlates with the slow-motion collapse of neoliberal capitalism and the intensification of class conflict worldwide. The American bourgeoisie is in danger of losing their power and resources, so they?re in the process of clamping down on the assets they can more solidly control. This U.S. imperial clampdown is taking place primarily throughout the Pan-American hemisphere. Washington is consolidating and attempting to expand its hold over Latin America. This has become apparent as the U.S. has meddled in Brazil?s election last year in order to get Bolsonaro elected; as the U.S. has escalated its efforts to overthrow Venezuela?s Chavista government, as well as the Sandinista government in Nicaragua; as the U.S. has overthrown Bolivia?s government; as Washington has begun to try to suppress the protests against U.S.-backed neoliberal regimes throughout Latin America; and of course as the campaign against Obrador has intensified. We?re seeing a repeat of Operation Condor, the Cold War campaign from the U.S. to carry out violence throughout Latin America and redraw the region?s political map. Trump?s decline to rule out drone strikes in Mexico in response to the ?terrorist? cartels shows how much this new effort may escalate in the coming years. Washington?s ultimate goal is to establish fascism throughout the entire Pan-American Hemisphere. If the imperialists won?t be able to regain domination over the globe, they?ll try to suppress the re-emergence of socialist and anti-colonial movements in both Americas through brute force. We must make them fail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 13068 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Tue Dec 10 00:38:50 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 18:38:50 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The visual poets often get there first, too Message-ID: <8A52BE85-D471-4A7D-ACAC-0A8D450FBC0F@newsfromneptune.com> "The System Investigates Itself? Boardman Robinson, in 'The Liberator,? 1921 https://images.app.goo.gl/BARYLa7XVWCJSDDW8 ### From carl at newsfromneptune.com Tue Dec 10 01:47:10 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 19:47:10 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Suppressed interview Message-ID: <7D4EA4E5-0C5E-4CD0-8EAF-02BFD2A86317@newsfromneptune.com> https://www.sana.sy/en/?p=180156&fbclid=IwAR1dM6pnMbYVA0NVFku6_hfXGGXhuH5BWApGM11KekoTjTt-5w6GQE-u9Ao From carl at newsfromneptune.com Tue Dec 10 01:56:38 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 19:56:38 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] OPCW scandal Message-ID: <36DEED2F-DF2C-477B-A9E9-F100E3140FA1@newsfromneptune.com> "If you haven't been following the still-unfolding OPCW scandal, you can catch up quickly by watching this seven-minute video: ?Caity Johnstone" From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Tue Dec 10 12:56:27 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 06:56:27 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes In-Reply-To: <5636E03F-4FAD-4567-9926-FE5687871755@newsfromneptune.com> References: <74971abe-85a2-abb5-4fee-af173f9b2150@forestfield.org> <9CCB27B0-FE59-4188-9E6C-5210B573A0D1@illinois.edu> <008b01d5ae1f$0a1141e0$1e33c5a0$@comcast.net> <5636E03F-4FAD-4567-9926-FE5687871755@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: <001901d5af59$3c9908b0$b5cb1a10$@comcast.net> His support for every regime change target of the U.S. government. Also, his sneaking in speakers at the last DSA conference in Chicago, of people who are directly funded by the NED. There was a big push back on this by DSA members from all over the country. So much so that the DSA national leadership will now screen all speakers of future workshops. Fortunately the 3 different workshops that had such speakers were only three or over thirty and they were sparsely attended. He and his co-horts , many the former national leadership of ISO ( International Socialist organization ) are a new generation of " Schachmanites ". Named after labor leader max schachmann, who was a TRotskist who became a cold war fanatic and worked for the national AFL-CIO and it's Institute for free Labor development, along with another of his ilk, Jay Lovestone, during the 1950's and 60's. . They were instrumental in wealening Left wing Unions in France, Germany, Italy and the UK after World War 2, as well as other Left populist Unions and organizations in later years in Latin America. David J. -----Original Message----- From: C. G. Estabrook [mailto:carl at newsfromneptune.com] Sent: Monday, December 09, 2019 10:52 PM To: David Johnson Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes David? What evidence is there of Proyect?s being an agent of the U.S. State Department and the National Endowment for Democracy? Regards, CGE > On Dec 8, 2019, at 5:27 PM, David Johnson wrote: > > Louis Proyect is a Shachtmanite pseudo Leftist who is a pro U.S. imperialist agent of the U.S. State Department and the National Endowment for Democracy. > > He has ZERO credibility. > > David J. > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of David Green via Peace-discuss > Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2019 9:46 AM > To: Brussel, Morton K > Cc: Peace Discuss; J.B. Nicholson; Peace; David Green; Karen Aram; C G Estabrook > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes > > Mort, I appreciate your comments and critique, and would be more than happy to understand beyond that shadow of the doubt that these indeed were "false flag" operations. I certainly don't have the technical competence to judge either Postol's article are the critique of his article by Jefferson Morley on this weekend's Counterpunch, which has also featured Louis Proyect's rejection of the "false flag" thesis. In any event, these discussions about Douma etc. obscure larger debates about the nature and origins of the regime change operation, which only feeds the "Assadist" charges against various characters. > > Nevertheless, I am indeed skeptical about someone like Vanessa Beeley, who seems naive to me in her regard for the Syrian regime. > > Unfortunately, the nature of the discussions around OPCW etc. are that people talk past each other, they never debate in good faith. Even given the rare opportunity to actually deploy scientific evidence and methodology, there seems to be no good faith effort to ascertain the evidence and induce whatever truth might be rigorously concluded in relation to a clear methodology. I don't think it's by accident that such a forum does not really exist, as Postol implied in his interview with Aaron Mate. > > DG > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 11:20 PM Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss wrote: >> My response to the show discussions is that it was at best mixed. It ended with reflections of David Green expressing doubts about the Douma incident, which basically expressed his ignorance. T. Postal was pretty clear about what could have occurred. The levels of chlorine gas found was said to be background Chlorine levels, but more importantly there were the leaks of withheld information by the two whistleblowers of the OECD. Seemed pretty clear to me that this was a false flag operation. >> The opening discussion about how identity politics obscures the class aspect of inequities I found to be turgid, whatever the ambiguous truths are to the arguments presented. Then there came the nonsensical sly apologetics regarding what Trump really wants. Caitlin Johnstone had a pertinent discussion about this [https://consortiumnews.com/2019/11/19/25-times-trump-has-been-dangerously-hawkish-on-russia/], leaving aside Trump's actions towards Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, Yemen, Bolivia, Iran, Syria,? And calling Assad truely a monster?? seemd gratuitous. >> But the discussion about the Democratic candidates, Harris and Butagieg(sp?) seemed just right, as did the remarks about the weird impeachment phenomenon. >> >> >> On Dec 6, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> Good show >> >> My thoughts while watching: >> >> It might be of value to mention that CLR James, author of the Black Jacobins, Adolph Reed and others discussing ?race as not the issue, focus should be on class,? are not white. In a recent interview with Adolph Reed he claimed to have been a former Black Panther. >> >> Many believe Kamala Harris failure to generate support, was due to her tough law and order record when a DA in SF. She was no liberal. She is now playing the race card by claiming, ?America isn?t ready for a woman President, a black woman President.? >> >> As to Pete Buttagieg, it might be worth promoting the podcast discussion referred to by Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal. Their interview with journalist Peter Van Buren was very insightful. My employer had me charge Kinsey Consultants $1,000 an hour, consulting with me. Had I known what I know now, I would have charged double. >> >> https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video >> >> Louis Proyect, the former ISO leadership, the local Black Rose Anarchists, and many others have lost credibility as ?Leftists,? when they support the USG intervention and war in Syria. Many are Trotskyist organizations, as claimed by Diana Johnstone, but not all, the WSWS.ORG does not support imperialism in Syria. >> >> Socialists/Communists generally do not support imperialism in Syria or anywhere else, if they do one should question there true intentions. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Dec 6, 2019, at 16:12, J.B. Nicholson via Peace wrote: >> >> News from Neptune #442 >> A "Fight Race Reductionism" edition >> Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6tW-stKUKc >> >> A list of links to items referenced on the show. >> >> Tariq Ali on "A Conversation with C.L.R. James" >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1980/07/tariq-ali.htm >> >> Briahna Gray on "Beware the Race Reductionist" >> https://theintercept.com/2018/08/26/beware-the-race-reductionist/ >> >> Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian Gordon Wood on the New York Times? 1619 Project" >> https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html >> >> Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian James McPherson on the New York Times? 1619 Project" >> https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html >> >> "Black Marxism" by Cedric Robinson >> Published: October 2005 >> Complete book: https://libcom.org/files/Black%20Marxism-Cedric%20J.%20Robinson.pdf >> Paperback ISBN: 978-0-8078-4829-6 >> eBook ISBN: 978-0-8078-7612-1 >> >> Gregory Myerson on "Tortilla Curtain and The Ecology of Fear" >> https://projects.ncsu.edu/project/acontracorriente/fall_04/Meyerson.pdf >> >> "The Wages of Whiteness: Race and the Making of the American Working Class" by David Roediger >> Complete book: https://caringlabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/roediger-the-wages-of-whiteness-race-and-the-making-of-the-american-working-class.pdf >> >> Noel Ignatiev and "Race Traitor" >> Winter 2005 number 16: https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Race-Traitor-%E2%84%96-16-Winter-2005.pdf >> >> Articles about Noel Ignatiev >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/15/noel-ignatiev-remembering-a-comrade-and-a-friend/ >> http://www.renegadetribune.com/genocidal-jew-noel-ignatiev-is-dead-good-riddance/ >> >> "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev >> ISBN: 0415918251 >> ISBN13: 9780415918251 >> >> Theodore W. Allen on "On Roediger's Wages of Whiteness" >> http://www.elegantbrain.com/edu4/classes/readings/race-roediger-allen.html >> >> Cedric Johnson on "The Wages of Roediger: Why Three Decades of Whiteness Studies Has Not Produced the Left We Need" >> https://nonsite.org/article/the-wages-of-roediger-why-three-decades-of-whiteness-studies-has-not-produced-the-left-we-need >> >> >> >> >> Barbara J. Fields on "Slavery, Race and Ideology in the United States of America" >> https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2763-slavery-race-and-ideology-in-the-united-states-of-america >> >> David Green's "Wealth gap" post to peace-discuss >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051656.html >> >> >> >> >> David Green's recent letters to the editor of the News-Gazette >> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-harassment-study-is-silly-propaganda/article_9d4eee6b-a8fa-5d8a-8609-169c0d256af9.html -- "Harassment study is silly propaganda" >> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor-concerns-voiced-about-bend-the-arc/article_99b2ac36-4279-5cad-8b60-892ca30dde6e.html -- "Concerns voiced about Bend the Arc" >> >> C. G. Estabrook on News-Gazette?s feature ?Those Who Served? weekly feature in a letter to the News-Gazette >> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-u-s-has-killed-millions-in/article_87b213e5-9f21-5acf-8f54-df41b18d026d.html >> >> Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow" >> https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon#Gravity's_Rainbow_(1973) >> >> >> >> >> >> Moderate Rebels on "What was Pete Buttigieg doing in Iraq?: US gov whistleblower on war profiteering and corruption" >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9V-HlSyiwE >> https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/moderaterebels/Moderate_Rebels_Pete_Buttigieg_Iraq_Peter_Van_Buren.mp3?dest-id=553365 >> >> Alicia Luke on "Buttigieg Admits No Combat Ribbon From Deployment To Afghanistan" >> https://freedomoutpost.com/buttigieg-admits-no-combat-ribbon-from-deployment-to-afghanistan/ >> >> >> >> >> Louis Proyect on "Douma, Chlorine Gas and Occam?s Razor" >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/22/douma-chlorine-gas-and-occams-razor/ >> >> Jefferson Morley on "Why the Douma Chemical Attack Wasn?t a ?Managed Massacre?" >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/06/why-the-douma-chemical-attack-wasnt-a-managed-massacre/ >> >> >> >> >> >> J.B. Nicholson's notes >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015404.html >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051610.html >> >> -J >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Tue Dec 10 15:32:11 2019 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 09:32:11 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes In-Reply-To: <001901d5af59$3c9908b0$b5cb1a10$@comcast.net> References: <74971abe-85a2-abb5-4fee-af173f9b2150@forestfield.org> <9CCB27B0-FE59-4188-9E6C-5210B573A0D1@illinois.edu> <008b01d5ae1f$0a1141e0$1e33c5a0$@comcast.net> <5636E03F-4FAD-4567-9926-FE5687871755@newsfromneptune.com> <001901d5af59$3c9908b0$b5cb1a10$@comcast.net> Message-ID: Whatever his machinations regarding ISO/DSA etc., Proyect is certainly an insidious and destructive ideological force on the so-called left. He consistently denigrates Blumenthal/Norton/Khalek in ways that implicitly promote U.S. imperialism in the Middle East. He never addresses Blumenthal's argument regarding the "Management of Savagery." He uses "Bellingcat" as his bible. He is foul-mouthed and dismissive of his critics on his website , while maintaining his civil demeanor for Counterpunch (see comments at link). Counterpunch has moved away from its "catholic" approach that Carl often refers to on our program. He consistently denigrates Adolph Reed and Walter Benn Michaels (class/race) in ways that promote liberal identity politics, while undermining a class analysis, all while claiming to stand apart from Democratic Party politics and any pragmatic support for Bernie Sanders. It's a cynical ideological and political mess. He of course denigrates anything that can be called a red-brown alliance, even regarding anti-imperialism/war issues, promoting the ridiculous work of Alexander Reid Ross. His affinity with David Roediger's "wages of whiteness" thesis is in explicit opposition to the sort of analysis put forward by Reed, Michaels, the Fields Sisters, and Cedric Johnson, whose critique of Roediger on nonsite.org is essential reading. He does all this while maintaining a "respectable" presence as a movie critic on Counterpunch, which has also published his efforts to debunk the false flag argument in relation to Syria/Douma. His administration of the Marxmail list is helpful as a source of daily references, but also provides a home for "Assadist" accusations, including by John Reimann, the "Oakland Socialist," whom even Proyect had to dress down during the Venezuelan coup events etc. Proyect's critiques and denigration regarding what he calls "political Marxism" and the issue of the transition to capitalism (Robert Brenner, etc.) are opaque, overly-heated, confusing, and often irrelevant to any understanding of current events. Its seems to be a way of asserting some bizarre form of scholarly superiority, which is often used as the basis for ad hominem arguments in relation debates around current issues. Unfortunately, one of his acolytes appears to be Monthly Review editor Michael Yates, for whom I previously had some respect. It's all a strange combination of the historical, the esoteric, and the political, which undermines a clear perspective on what is being done in the present and what needs to be done about it. DG On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 6:57 AM David Johnson via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > His support for every regime change target of the U.S. government. > > Also, his sneaking in speakers at the last DSA conference in Chicago, of > people who are directly funded by the NED. There was a big push back on > this by DSA members from all over the country. So much so that the DSA > national leadership will now screen all speakers of future workshops. > Fortunately the 3 different workshops that had such speakers were only > three or over thirty and they were sparsely attended. > > He and his co-horts , many the former national leadership of ISO ( > International Socialist organization ) are a new generation of " > Schachmanites ". Named after labor leader max schachmann, who was a > TRotskist who became a cold war fanatic and worked for the national > AFL-CIO and it's Institute for free Labor development, along with another > of his ilk, Jay Lovestone, during the 1950's and 60's. . They were > instrumental in wealening Left wing Unions in France, Germany, Italy and > the UK after World War 2, as well as other Left populist Unions and > organizations in later years in Latin America. > > David J. > > -----Original Message----- > From: C. G. Estabrook [mailto:carl at newsfromneptune.com] > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2019 10:52 PM > To: David Johnson > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes > > David? > > What evidence is there of Proyect?s being an agent of the U.S. State > Department and the National Endowment for Democracy? > > Regards, CGE > > > > On Dec 8, 2019, at 5:27 PM, David Johnson > wrote: > > > > Louis Proyect is a Shachtmanite pseudo Leftist who is a pro U.S. > imperialist agent of the U.S. State Department and the National Endowment > for Democracy. > > > > He has ZERO credibility. > > > > David J. > > > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] > On Behalf Of David Green via Peace-discuss > > Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2019 9:46 AM > > To: Brussel, Morton K > > Cc: Peace Discuss; J.B. Nicholson; Peace; David Green; Karen Aram; C G > Estabrook > > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes > > > > Mort, I appreciate your comments and critique, and would be more than > happy to understand beyond that shadow of the doubt that these indeed were > "false flag" operations. I certainly don't have the technical competence to > judge either Postol's article are the critique of his article by Jefferson > Morley on this weekend's Counterpunch, which has also featured Louis > Proyect's rejection of the "false flag" thesis. In any event, these > discussions about Douma etc. obscure larger debates about the nature and > origins of the regime change operation, which only feeds the "Assadist" > charges against various characters. > > > > Nevertheless, I am indeed skeptical about someone like Vanessa Beeley, > who seems naive to me in her regard for the Syrian regime. > > > > Unfortunately, the nature of the discussions around OPCW etc. are that > people talk past each other, they never debate in good faith. Even given > the rare opportunity to actually deploy scientific evidence and > methodology, there seems to be no good faith effort to ascertain the > evidence and induce whatever truth might be rigorously concluded in > relation to a clear methodology. I don't think it's by accident that such a > forum does not really exist, as Postol implied in his interview with Aaron > Mate. > > > > DG > > > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 11:20 PM Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > >> My response to the show discussions is that it was at best mixed. It > ended with reflections of David Green expressing doubts about the Douma > incident, which basically expressed his ignorance. T. Postal was pretty > clear about what could have occurred. The levels of chlorine gas found was > said to be background Chlorine levels, but more importantly there were the > leaks of withheld information by the two whistleblowers of the OECD. Seemed > pretty clear to me that this was a false flag operation. > >> The opening discussion about how identity politics obscures the class > aspect of inequities I found to be turgid, whatever the ambiguous truths > are to the arguments presented. Then there came the nonsensical sly > apologetics regarding what Trump really wants. Caitlin Johnstone had a > pertinent discussion about this [ > https://consortiumnews.com/2019/11/19/25-times-trump-has-been-dangerously-hawkish-on-russia/], > leaving aside Trump's actions towards Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, Yemen, > Bolivia, Iran, Syria,? And calling Assad truely a monster?? seemd > gratuitous. > >> But the discussion about the Democratic candidates, Harris and > Butagieg(sp?) seemed just right, as did the remarks about the weird > impeachment phenomenon. > >> > >> > >> On Dec 6, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > >> > >> Good show > >> > >> My thoughts while watching: > >> > >> It might be of value to mention that CLR James, author of the Black > Jacobins, Adolph Reed and others discussing ?race as not the issue, focus > should be on class,? are not white. In a recent interview with Adolph Reed > he claimed to have been a former Black Panther. > >> > >> Many believe Kamala Harris failure to generate support, was due to her > tough law and order record when a DA in SF. She was no liberal. She is now > playing the race card by claiming, ?America isn?t ready for a woman > President, a black woman President.? > >> > >> As to Pete Buttagieg, it might be worth promoting the podcast > discussion referred to by Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal. Their interview > with journalist Peter Van Buren was very insightful. My employer had me > charge Kinsey Consultants $1,000 an hour, consulting with me. Had I known > what I know now, I would have charged double. > >> > >> > https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video > < > https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video > > > >> > >> Louis Proyect, the former ISO leadership, the local Black Rose > Anarchists, and many others have lost credibility as ?Leftists,? when they > support the USG intervention and war in Syria. Many are Trotskyist > organizations, as claimed by Diana Johnstone, but not all, the WSWS.ORG > does not support imperialism in Syria. > >> > >> Socialists/Communists generally do not support imperialism in Syria or > anywhere else, if they do one should question there true intentions. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Dec 6, 2019, at 16:12, J.B. Nicholson via Peace < > peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > >> > >> News from Neptune #442 > >> A "Fight Race Reductionism" edition > >> Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6tW-stKUKc > >> > >> A list of links to items referenced on the show. > >> > >> Tariq Ali on "A Conversation with C.L.R. James" > >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1980/07/tariq-ali.htm > >> > >> Briahna Gray on "Beware the Race Reductionist" > >> https://theintercept.com/2018/08/26/beware-the-race-reductionist/ > >> > >> Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian Gordon Wood on the New > York Times? 1619 Project" > >> https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html > >> > >> Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian James McPherson on the New > York Times? 1619 Project" > >> https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html > >> > >> "Black Marxism" by Cedric Robinson > >> Published: October 2005 > >> Complete book: > https://libcom.org/files/Black%20Marxism-Cedric%20J.%20Robinson.pdf > >> Paperback ISBN: 978-0-8078-4829-6 > >> eBook ISBN: 978-0-8078-7612-1 > >> > >> Gregory Myerson on "Tortilla Curtain and The Ecology of Fear" > >> https://projects.ncsu.edu/project/acontracorriente/fall_04/Meyerson.pdf > >> > >> "The Wages of Whiteness: Race and the Making of the American Working > Class" by David Roediger > >> Complete book: > https://caringlabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/roediger-the-wages-of-whiteness-race-and-the-making-of-the-american-working-class.pdf > >> > >> Noel Ignatiev and "Race Traitor" > >> Winter 2005 number 16: > https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Race-Traitor-%E2%84%96-16-Winter-2005.pdf > >> > >> Articles about Noel Ignatiev > >> > https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/15/noel-ignatiev-remembering-a-comrade-and-a-friend/ > >> > http://www.renegadetribune.com/genocidal-jew-noel-ignatiev-is-dead-good-riddance/ > >> > >> "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev > >> ISBN: 0415918251 > >> ISBN13: 9780415918251 > >> > >> Theodore W. Allen on "On Roediger's Wages of Whiteness" > >> > http://www.elegantbrain.com/edu4/classes/readings/race-roediger-allen.html > >> > >> Cedric Johnson on "The Wages of Roediger: Why Three Decades of > Whiteness Studies Has Not Produced the Left We Need" > >> > https://nonsite.org/article/the-wages-of-roediger-why-three-decades-of-whiteness-studies-has-not-produced-the-left-we-need > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Barbara J. Fields on "Slavery, Race and Ideology in the United States > of America" > >> > https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2763-slavery-race-and-ideology-in-the-united-states-of-america > >> > >> David Green's "Wealth gap" post to peace-discuss > >> > https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051656.html > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> David Green's recent letters to the editor of the News-Gazette > >> > https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-harassment-study-is-silly-propaganda/article_9d4eee6b-a8fa-5d8a-8609-169c0d256af9.html > -- "Harassment study is silly propaganda" > >> > https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor-concerns-voiced-about-bend-the-arc/article_99b2ac36-4279-5cad-8b60-892ca30dde6e.html > -- "Concerns voiced about Bend the Arc" > >> > >> C. G. Estabrook on News-Gazette?s feature ?Those Who Served? weekly > feature in a letter to the News-Gazette > >> > https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-u-s-has-killed-millions-in/article_87b213e5-9f21-5acf-8f54-df41b18d026d.html > >> > >> Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow" > >> https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon#Gravity's_Rainbow_(1973) > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Moderate Rebels on "What was Pete Buttigieg doing in Iraq?: US gov > whistleblower on war profiteering and corruption" > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9V-HlSyiwE > >> > https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/moderaterebels/Moderate_Rebels_Pete_Buttigieg_Iraq_Peter_Van_Buren.mp3?dest-id=553365 > >> > >> Alicia Luke on "Buttigieg Admits No Combat Ribbon From Deployment To > Afghanistan" > >> > https://freedomoutpost.com/buttigieg-admits-no-combat-ribbon-from-deployment-to-afghanistan/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Louis Proyect on "Douma, Chlorine Gas and Occam?s Razor" > >> > https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/22/douma-chlorine-gas-and-occams-razor/ > >> > >> Jefferson Morley on "Why the Douma Chemical Attack Wasn?t a ?Managed > Massacre?" > >> > https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/06/why-the-douma-chemical-attack-wasnt-a-managed-massacre/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> J.B. Nicholson's notes > >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015404.html > >> > https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051610.html > >> > >> -J > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Peace mailing list > >> Peace at lists.chambana.net > >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Peace-discuss mailing list > >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Peace-discuss mailing list > >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Tue Dec 10 15:40:51 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 09:40:51 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes In-Reply-To: References: <74971abe-85a2-abb5-4fee-af173f9b2150@forestfield.org> <9CCB27B0-FE59-4188-9E6C-5210B573A0D1@illinois.edu> <008b01d5ae1f$0a1141e0$1e33c5a0$@comcast.net> <5636E03F-4FAD-4567-9926-FE5687871755@newsfromneptune.com> <001901d5af59$3c9908b0$b5cb1a10$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <007f01d5af70$347db830$9d792890$@comcast.net> Thank you so much for this David ! You added much needed flesh and muscle to my skeleton critique, in your excellent detail and examples. Please send me a private e-mail with more specifics about the ? dressing down ? by Proyect of my former friend John Reimann. David J. From: David Green [mailto:davidgreen50 at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2019 9:32 AM To: David Johnson Cc: C. G. Estabrook; Peace-discuss Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes Whatever his machinations regarding ISO/DSA etc., Proyect is certainly an insidious and destructive ideological force on the so-called left. He consistently denigrates Blumenthal/Norton/Khalek in ways that implicitly promote U.S. imperialism in the Middle East. He never addresses Blumenthal's argument regarding the "Management of Savagery." He uses "Bellingcat" as his bible. He is foul-mouthed and dismissive of his critics on his website , while maintaining his civil demeanor for Counterpunch (see comments at link). Counterpunch has moved away from its "catholic" approach that Carl often refers to on our program. He consistently denigrates Adolph Reed and Walter Benn Michaels (class/race) in ways that promote liberal identity politics, while undermining a class analysis, all while claiming to stand apart from Democratic Party politics and any pragmatic support for Bernie Sanders. It's a cynical ideological and political mess. He of course denigrates anything that can be called a red-brown alliance, even regarding anti-imperialism/war issues, promoting the ridiculous work of Alexander Reid Ross. His affinity with David Roediger's "wages of whiteness" thesis is in explicit opposition to the sort of analysis put forward by Reed, Michaels, the Fields Sisters, and Cedric Johnson, whose critique of Roediger on nonsite.org is essential reading. He does all this while maintaining a "respectable" presence as a movie critic on Counterpunch, which has also published his efforts to debunk the false flag argument in relation to Syria/Douma. His administration of the Marxmail list is helpful as a source of daily references, but also provides a home for "Assadist" accusations, including by John Reimann, the "Oakland Socialist," whom even Proyect had to dress down during the Venezuelan coup events etc. Proyect's critiques and denigration regarding what he calls "political Marxism" and the issue of the transition to capitalism (Robert Brenner, etc.) are opaque, overly-heated, confusing, and often irrelevant to any understanding of current events. Its seems to be a way of asserting some bizarre form of scholarly superiority, which is often used as the basis for ad hominem arguments in relation debates around current issues. Unfortunately, one of his acolytes appears to be Monthly Review editor Michael Yates, for whom I previously had some respect. It's all a strange combination of the historical, the esoteric, and the political, which undermines a clear perspective on what is being done in the present and what needs to be done about it. DG On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 6:57 AM David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: His support for every regime change target of the U.S. government. Also, his sneaking in speakers at the last DSA conference in Chicago, of people who are directly funded by the NED. There was a big push back on this by DSA members from all over the country. So much so that the DSA national leadership will now screen all speakers of future workshops. Fortunately the 3 different workshops that had such speakers were only three or over thirty and they were sparsely attended. He and his co-horts , many the former national leadership of ISO ( International Socialist organization ) are a new generation of " Schachmanites ". Named after labor leader max schachmann, who was a TRotskist who became a cold war fanatic and worked for the national AFL-CIO and it's Institute for free Labor development, along with another of his ilk, Jay Lovestone, during the 1950's and 60's. . They were instrumental in wealening Left wing Unions in France, Germany, Italy and the UK after World War 2, as well as other Left populist Unions and organizations in later years in Latin America. David J. -----Original Message----- From: C. G. Estabrook [mailto:carl at newsfromneptune.com] Sent: Monday, December 09, 2019 10:52 PM To: David Johnson Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes David? What evidence is there of Proyect?s being an agent of the U.S. State Department and the National Endowment for Democracy? Regards, CGE > On Dec 8, 2019, at 5:27 PM, David Johnson wrote: > > Louis Proyect is a Shachtmanite pseudo Leftist who is a pro U.S. imperialist agent of the U.S. State Department and the National Endowment for Democracy. > > He has ZERO credibility. > > David J. > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of David Green via Peace-discuss > Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2019 9:46 AM > To: Brussel, Morton K > Cc: Peace Discuss; J.B. Nicholson; Peace; David Green; Karen Aram; C G Estabrook > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes > > Mort, I appreciate your comments and critique, and would be more than happy to understand beyond that shadow of the doubt that these indeed were "false flag" operations. I certainly don't have the technical competence to judge either Postol's article are the critique of his article by Jefferson Morley on this weekend's Counterpunch, which has also featured Louis Proyect's rejection of the "false flag" thesis. In any event, these discussions about Douma etc. obscure larger debates about the nature and origins of the regime change operation, which only feeds the "Assadist" charges against various characters. > > Nevertheless, I am indeed skeptical about someone like Vanessa Beeley, who seems naive to me in her regard for the Syrian regime. > > Unfortunately, the nature of the discussions around OPCW etc. are that people talk past each other, they never debate in good faith. Even given the rare opportunity to actually deploy scientific evidence and methodology, there seems to be no good faith effort to ascertain the evidence and induce whatever truth might be rigorously concluded in relation to a clear methodology. I don't think it's by accident that such a forum does not really exist, as Postol implied in his interview with Aaron Mate. > > DG > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 11:20 PM Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss wrote: >> My response to the show discussions is that it was at best mixed. It ended with reflections of David Green expressing doubts about the Douma incident, which basically expressed his ignorance. T. Postal was pretty clear about what could have occurred. The levels of chlorine gas found was said to be background Chlorine levels, but more importantly there were the leaks of withheld information by the two whistleblowers of the OECD. Seemed pretty clear to me that this was a false flag operation. >> The opening discussion about how identity politics obscures the class aspect of inequities I found to be turgid, whatever the ambiguous truths are to the arguments presented. Then there came the nonsensical sly apologetics regarding what Trump really wants. Caitlin Johnstone had a pertinent discussion about this [https://consortiumnews.com/2019/11/19/25-times-trump-has-been-dangerously-hawkish-on-russia/], leaving aside Trump's actions towards Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, Yemen, Bolivia, Iran, Syria,? And calling Assad truely a monster?? seemd gratuitous. >> But the discussion about the Democratic candidates, Harris and Butagieg(sp?) seemed just right, as did the remarks about the weird impeachment phenomenon. >> >> >> On Dec 6, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> Good show >> >> My thoughts while watching: >> >> It might be of value to mention that CLR James, author of the Black Jacobins, Adolph Reed and others discussing ?race as not the issue, focus should be on class,? are not white. In a recent interview with Adolph Reed he claimed to have been a former Black Panther. >> >> Many believe Kamala Harris failure to generate support, was due to her tough law and order record when a DA in SF. She was no liberal. She is now playing the race card by claiming, ?America isn?t ready for a woman President, a black woman President.? >> >> As to Pete Buttagieg, it might be worth promoting the podcast discussion referred to by Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal. Their interview with journalist Peter Van Buren was very insightful. My employer had me charge Kinsey Consultants $1,000 an hour, consulting with me. Had I known what I know now, I would have charged double. >> >> https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121 ¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video ¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video> >> >> Louis Proyect, the former ISO leadership, the local Black Rose Anarchists, and many others have lost credibility as ?Leftists,? when they support the USG intervention and war in Syria. Many are Trotskyist organizations, as claimed by Diana Johnstone, but not all, the WSWS.ORG does not support imperialism in Syria. >> >> Socialists/Communists generally do not support imperialism in Syria or anywhere else, if they do one should question there true intentions. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Dec 6, 2019, at 16:12, J.B. Nicholson via Peace wrote: >> >> News from Neptune #442 >> A "Fight Race Reductionism" edition >> Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6tW-stKUKc >> >> A list of links to items referenced on the show. >> >> Tariq Ali on "A Conversation with C.L.R. James" >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1980/07/tariq-ali.htm >> >> Briahna Gray on "Beware the Race Reductionist" >> https://theintercept.com/2018/08/26/beware-the-race-reductionist/ >> >> Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian Gordon Wood on the New York Times? 1619 Project" >> https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html >> >> Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian James McPherson on the New York Times? 1619 Project" >> https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html >> >> "Black Marxism" by Cedric Robinson >> Published: October 2005 >> Complete book: https://libcom.org/files/Black%20Marxism-Cedric%20J.%20Robinson.pdf >> Paperback ISBN: 978-0-8078-4829-6 >> eBook ISBN: 978-0-8078-7612-1 >> >> Gregory Myerson on "Tortilla Curtain and The Ecology of Fear" >> https://projects.ncsu.edu/project/acontracorriente/fall_04/Meyerson.pdf >> >> "The Wages of Whiteness: Race and the Making of the American Working Class" by David Roediger >> Complete book: https://caringlabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/roediger-the-wages-of-whiteness-race-and-the-making-of-the-american-working-class.pdf >> >> Noel Ignatiev and "Race Traitor" >> Winter 2005 number 16: https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Race-Traitor-%E2%84%96-16-Winter-2005.pdf >> >> Articles about Noel Ignatiev >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/15/noel-ignatiev-remembering-a-comrade-and-a-friend/ >> http://www.renegadetribune.com/genocidal-jew-noel-ignatiev-is-dead-good-riddance/ >> >> "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev >> ISBN: 0415918251 >> ISBN13: 9780415918251 >> >> Theodore W. Allen on "On Roediger's Wages of Whiteness" >> http://www.elegantbrain.com/edu4/classes/readings/race-roediger-allen.html >> >> Cedric Johnson on "The Wages of Roediger: Why Three Decades of Whiteness Studies Has Not Produced the Left We Need" >> https://nonsite.org/article/the-wages-of-roediger-why-three-decades-of-whiteness-studies-has-not-produced-the-left-we-need >> >> >> >> >> Barbara J. Fields on "Slavery, Race and Ideology in the United States of America" >> https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2763-slavery-race-and-ideology-in-the-united-states-of-america >> >> David Green's "Wealth gap" post to peace-discuss >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051656.html >> >> >> >> >> David Green's recent letters to the editor of the News-Gazette >> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-harassment-study-is-silly-propaganda/article_9d4eee6b-a8fa-5d8a-8609-169c0d256af9.html -- "Harassment study is silly propaganda" >> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor-concerns-voiced-about-bend-the-arc/article_99b2ac36-4279-5cad-8b60-892ca30dde6e.html -- "Concerns voiced about Bend the Arc" >> >> C. G. Estabrook on News-Gazette?s feature ?Those Who Served? weekly feature in a letter to the News-Gazette >> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-u-s-has-killed-millions-in/article_87b213e5-9f21-5acf-8f54-df41b18d026d.html >> >> Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow" >> https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon#Gravity's_Rainbow_(1973) >> >> >> >> >> >> Moderate Rebels on "What was Pete Buttigieg doing in Iraq?: US gov whistleblower on war profiteering and corruption" >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9V-HlSyiwE >> https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/moderaterebels/Moderate_Rebels_Pete_Buttigieg_Iraq_Peter_Van_Buren.mp3?dest-id=553365 >> >> Alicia Luke on "Buttigieg Admits No Combat Ribbon From Deployment To Afghanistan" >> https://freedomoutpost.com/buttigieg-admits-no-combat-ribbon-from-deployment-to-afghanistan/ >> >> >> >> >> Louis Proyect on "Douma, Chlorine Gas and Occam?s Razor" >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/22/douma-chlorine-gas-and-occams-razor/ >> >> Jefferson Morley on "Why the Douma Chemical Attack Wasn?t a ?Managed Massacre?" >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/06/why-the-douma-chemical-attack-wasnt-a-managed-massacre/ >> >> >> >> >> >> J.B. Nicholson's notes >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015404.html >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051610.html >> >> -J >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Tue Dec 10 15:48:48 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 09:48:48 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes In-Reply-To: References: <74971abe-85a2-abb5-4fee-af173f9b2150@forestfield.org> <9CCB27B0-FE59-4188-9E6C-5210B573A0D1@illinois.edu> <008b01d5ae1f$0a1141e0$1e33c5a0$@comcast.net> <5636E03F-4FAD-4567-9926-FE5687871755@newsfromneptune.com> <001901d5af59$3c9908b0$b5cb1a10$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <009501d5af71$509a1c60$f1ce5520$@comcast.net> ? Whatever his machinations regarding ISO/DSA etc., Proyect is certainly an insidious and destructive ideological force on the so-called left.? Yes !, their favorite pathetic tactic is to call anybody that disagrees with them ? conspiracy theorists ?. They have refereed to outstanding independent journalists ; Robert Fisk, Seymour Hirsch, and John Pilger as such. Any information presented that debunks their nonsense is called ? conspiracy theory ? with no other counter argument. Also they call anyone who disagrees with them ? Putin Puppets ? and ? Assad Apologists ??sound familiar ? As Karen Aram pointed out accurately when she was in a radio debate with my former friend John Reimann about Syria, she stated to Reimann ? ? Everything you say and how you say it sounds identical to CNN. ? David J. From: David Green [mailto:davidgreen50 at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2019 9:32 AM To: David Johnson Cc: C. G. Estabrook; Peace-discuss Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes Whatever his machinations regarding ISO/DSA etc., Proyect is certainly an insidious and destructive ideological force on the so-called left. He consistently denigrates Blumenthal/Norton/Khalek in ways that implicitly promote U.S. imperialism in the Middle East. He never addresses Blumenthal's argument regarding the "Management of Savagery." He uses "Bellingcat" as his bible. He is foul-mouthed and dismissive of his critics on his website , while maintaining his civil demeanor for Counterpunch (see comments at link). Counterpunch has moved away from its "catholic" approach that Carl often refers to on our program. He consistently denigrates Adolph Reed and Walter Benn Michaels (class/race) in ways that promote liberal identity politics, while undermining a class analysis, all while claiming to stand apart from Democratic Party politics and any pragmatic support for Bernie Sanders. It's a cynical ideological and political mess. He of course denigrates anything that can be called a red-brown alliance, even regarding anti-imperialism/war issues, promoting the ridiculous work of Alexander Reid Ross. His affinity with David Roediger's "wages of whiteness" thesis is in explicit opposition to the sort of analysis put forward by Reed, Michaels, the Fields Sisters, and Cedric Johnson, whose critique of Roediger on nonsite.org is essential reading. He does all this while maintaining a "respectable" presence as a movie critic on Counterpunch, which has also published his efforts to debunk the false flag argument in relation to Syria/Douma. His administration of the Marxmail list is helpful as a source of daily references, but also provides a home for "Assadist" accusations, including by John Reimann, the "Oakland Socialist," whom even Proyect had to dress down during the Venezuelan coup events etc. Proyect's critiques and denigration regarding what he calls "political Marxism" and the issue of the transition to capitalism (Robert Brenner, etc.) are opaque, overly-heated, confusing, and often irrelevant to any understanding of current events. Its seems to be a way of asserting some bizarre form of scholarly superiority, which is often used as the basis for ad hominem arguments in relation debates around current issues. Unfortunately, one of his acolytes appears to be Monthly Review editor Michael Yates, for whom I previously had some respect. It's all a strange combination of the historical, the esoteric, and the political, which undermines a clear perspective on what is being done in the present and what needs to be done about it. DG On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 6:57 AM David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: His support for every regime change target of the U.S. government. Also, his sneaking in speakers at the last DSA conference in Chicago, of people who are directly funded by the NED. There was a big push back on this by DSA members from all over the country. So much so that the DSA national leadership will now screen all speakers of future workshops. Fortunately the 3 different workshops that had such speakers were only three or over thirty and they were sparsely attended. He and his co-horts , many the former national leadership of ISO ( International Socialist organization ) are a new generation of " Schachmanites ". Named after labor leader max schachmann, who was a TRotskist who became a cold war fanatic and worked for the national AFL-CIO and it's Institute for free Labor development, along with another of his ilk, Jay Lovestone, during the 1950's and 60's. . They were instrumental in wealening Left wing Unions in France, Germany, Italy and the UK after World War 2, as well as other Left populist Unions and organizations in later years in Latin America. David J. -----Original Message----- From: C. G. Estabrook [mailto:carl at newsfromneptune.com] Sent: Monday, December 09, 2019 10:52 PM To: David Johnson Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes David? What evidence is there of Proyect?s being an agent of the U.S. State Department and the National Endowment for Democracy? Regards, CGE > On Dec 8, 2019, at 5:27 PM, David Johnson wrote: > > Louis Proyect is a Shachtmanite pseudo Leftist who is a pro U.S. imperialist agent of the U.S. State Department and the National Endowment for Democracy. > > He has ZERO credibility. > > David J. > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of David Green via Peace-discuss > Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2019 9:46 AM > To: Brussel, Morton K > Cc: Peace Discuss; J.B. Nicholson; Peace; David Green; Karen Aram; C G Estabrook > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes > > Mort, I appreciate your comments and critique, and would be more than happy to understand beyond that shadow of the doubt that these indeed were "false flag" operations. I certainly don't have the technical competence to judge either Postol's article are the critique of his article by Jefferson Morley on this weekend's Counterpunch, which has also featured Louis Proyect's rejection of the "false flag" thesis. In any event, these discussions about Douma etc. obscure larger debates about the nature and origins of the regime change operation, which only feeds the "Assadist" charges against various characters. > > Nevertheless, I am indeed skeptical about someone like Vanessa Beeley, who seems naive to me in her regard for the Syrian regime. > > Unfortunately, the nature of the discussions around OPCW etc. are that people talk past each other, they never debate in good faith. Even given the rare opportunity to actually deploy scientific evidence and methodology, there seems to be no good faith effort to ascertain the evidence and induce whatever truth might be rigorously concluded in relation to a clear methodology. I don't think it's by accident that such a forum does not really exist, as Postol implied in his interview with Aaron Mate. > > DG > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 11:20 PM Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss wrote: >> My response to the show discussions is that it was at best mixed. It ended with reflections of David Green expressing doubts about the Douma incident, which basically expressed his ignorance. T. Postal was pretty clear about what could have occurred. The levels of chlorine gas found was said to be background Chlorine levels, but more importantly there were the leaks of withheld information by the two whistleblowers of the OECD. Seemed pretty clear to me that this was a false flag operation. >> The opening discussion about how identity politics obscures the class aspect of inequities I found to be turgid, whatever the ambiguous truths are to the arguments presented. Then there came the nonsensical sly apologetics regarding what Trump really wants. Caitlin Johnstone had a pertinent discussion about this [https://consortiumnews.com/2019/11/19/25-times-trump-has-been-dangerously-hawkish-on-russia/], leaving aside Trump's actions towards Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, Yemen, Bolivia, Iran, Syria,? And calling Assad truely a monster?? seemd gratuitous. >> But the discussion about the Democratic candidates, Harris and Butagieg(sp?) seemed just right, as did the remarks about the weird impeachment phenomenon. >> >> >> On Dec 6, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> Good show >> >> My thoughts while watching: >> >> It might be of value to mention that CLR James, author of the Black Jacobins, Adolph Reed and others discussing ?race as not the issue, focus should be on class,? are not white. In a recent interview with Adolph Reed he claimed to have been a former Black Panther. >> >> Many believe Kamala Harris failure to generate support, was due to her tough law and order record when a DA in SF. She was no liberal. She is now playing the race card by claiming, ?America isn?t ready for a woman President, a black woman President.? >> >> As to Pete Buttagieg, it might be worth promoting the podcast discussion referred to by Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal. Their interview with journalist Peter Van Buren was very insightful. My employer had me charge Kinsey Consultants $1,000 an hour, consulting with me. Had I known what I know now, I would have charged double. >> >> https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121 ¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video ¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video> >> >> Louis Proyect, the former ISO leadership, the local Black Rose Anarchists, and many others have lost credibility as ?Leftists,? when they support the USG intervention and war in Syria. Many are Trotskyist organizations, as claimed by Diana Johnstone, but not all, the WSWS.ORG does not support imperialism in Syria. >> >> Socialists/Communists generally do not support imperialism in Syria or anywhere else, if they do one should question there true intentions. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Dec 6, 2019, at 16:12, J.B. Nicholson via Peace wrote: >> >> News from Neptune #442 >> A "Fight Race Reductionism" edition >> Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6tW-stKUKc >> >> A list of links to items referenced on the show. >> >> Tariq Ali on "A Conversation with C.L.R. James" >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1980/07/tariq-ali.htm >> >> Briahna Gray on "Beware the Race Reductionist" >> https://theintercept.com/2018/08/26/beware-the-race-reductionist/ >> >> Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian Gordon Wood on the New York Times? 1619 Project" >> https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html >> >> Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian James McPherson on the New York Times? 1619 Project" >> https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html >> >> "Black Marxism" by Cedric Robinson >> Published: October 2005 >> Complete book: https://libcom.org/files/Black%20Marxism-Cedric%20J.%20Robinson.pdf >> Paperback ISBN: 978-0-8078-4829-6 >> eBook ISBN: 978-0-8078-7612-1 >> >> Gregory Myerson on "Tortilla Curtain and The Ecology of Fear" >> https://projects.ncsu.edu/project/acontracorriente/fall_04/Meyerson.pdf >> >> "The Wages of Whiteness: Race and the Making of the American Working Class" by David Roediger >> Complete book: https://caringlabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/roediger-the-wages-of-whiteness-race-and-the-making-of-the-american-working-class.pdf >> >> Noel Ignatiev and "Race Traitor" >> Winter 2005 number 16: https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Race-Traitor-%E2%84%96-16-Winter-2005.pdf >> >> Articles about Noel Ignatiev >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/15/noel-ignatiev-remembering-a-comrade-and-a-friend/ >> http://www.renegadetribune.com/genocidal-jew-noel-ignatiev-is-dead-good-riddance/ >> >> "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev >> ISBN: 0415918251 >> ISBN13: 9780415918251 >> >> Theodore W. Allen on "On Roediger's Wages of Whiteness" >> http://www.elegantbrain.com/edu4/classes/readings/race-roediger-allen.html >> >> Cedric Johnson on "The Wages of Roediger: Why Three Decades of Whiteness Studies Has Not Produced the Left We Need" >> https://nonsite.org/article/the-wages-of-roediger-why-three-decades-of-whiteness-studies-has-not-produced-the-left-we-need >> >> >> >> >> Barbara J. Fields on "Slavery, Race and Ideology in the United States of America" >> https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2763-slavery-race-and-ideology-in-the-united-states-of-america >> >> David Green's "Wealth gap" post to peace-discuss >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051656.html >> >> >> >> >> David Green's recent letters to the editor of the News-Gazette >> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-harassment-study-is-silly-propaganda/article_9d4eee6b-a8fa-5d8a-8609-169c0d256af9.html -- "Harassment study is silly propaganda" >> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor-concerns-voiced-about-bend-the-arc/article_99b2ac36-4279-5cad-8b60-892ca30dde6e.html -- "Concerns voiced about Bend the Arc" >> >> C. G. Estabrook on News-Gazette?s feature ?Those Who Served? weekly feature in a letter to the News-Gazette >> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-u-s-has-killed-millions-in/article_87b213e5-9f21-5acf-8f54-df41b18d026d.html >> >> Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow" >> https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon#Gravity's_Rainbow_(1973) >> >> >> >> >> >> Moderate Rebels on "What was Pete Buttigieg doing in Iraq?: US gov whistleblower on war profiteering and corruption" >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9V-HlSyiwE >> https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/moderaterebels/Moderate_Rebels_Pete_Buttigieg_Iraq_Peter_Van_Buren.mp3?dest-id=553365 >> >> Alicia Luke on "Buttigieg Admits No Combat Ribbon From Deployment To Afghanistan" >> https://freedomoutpost.com/buttigieg-admits-no-combat-ribbon-from-deployment-to-afghanistan/ >> >> >> >> >> Louis Proyect on "Douma, Chlorine Gas and Occam?s Razor" >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/22/douma-chlorine-gas-and-occams-razor/ >> >> Jefferson Morley on "Why the Douma Chemical Attack Wasn?t a ?Managed Massacre?" >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/06/why-the-douma-chemical-attack-wasnt-a-managed-massacre/ >> >> >> >> >> >> J.B. Nicholson's notes >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015404.html >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051610.html >> >> -J >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Tue Dec 10 17:10:03 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 11:10:03 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes In-Reply-To: References: <74971abe-85a2-abb5-4fee-af173f9b2150@forestfield.org> <9CCB27B0-FE59-4188-9E6C-5210B573A0D1@illinois.edu> <008b01d5ae1f$0a1141e0$1e33c5a0$@comcast.net> <5636E03F-4FAD-4567-9926-FE5687871755@newsfromneptune.com> <001901d5af59$3c9908b0$b5cb1a10$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9F9AC437-34A7-4448-AA45-B759F9FA681F@newsfromneptune.com> David? This is a helpful summary and indictment - a good result of the time you?ve spent arguing with him. Thanks. ?CGE > On Dec 10, 2019, at 9:32 AM, David Green wrote: > > Whatever his machinations regarding ISO/DSA etc., Proyect is certainly an insidious and destructive ideological force on the so-called left. > > He consistently denigrates Blumenthal/Norton/Khalek in ways that implicitly promote U.S. imperialism in the Middle East. He never addresses Blumenthal's argument regarding the "Management of Savagery." > > He uses "Bellingcat" as his bible. > > He is foul-mouthed and dismissive of his critics on his website, while maintaining his civil demeanor for Counterpunch (see comments at link). Counterpunch has moved away from its "catholic" approach that Carl often refers to on our program. > > He consistently denigrates Adolph Reed and Walter Benn Michaels (class/race) in ways that promote liberal identity politics, while undermining a class analysis, all while claiming to stand apart from Democratic Party politics and any pragmatic support for Bernie Sanders. It's a cynical ideological and political mess. > > He of course denigrates anything that can be called a red-brown alliance, even regarding anti-imperialism/war issues, promoting the ridiculous work of Alexander Reid Ross. > > His affinity with David Roediger's "wages of whiteness" thesis is in explicit opposition to the sort of analysis put forward by Reed, Michaels, the Fields Sisters, and Cedric Johnson, whose critique of Roediger on nonsite.org is essential reading. > > He does all this while maintaining a "respectable" presence as a movie critic on Counterpunch, which has also published his efforts to debunk the false flag argument in relation to Syria/Douma. > > His administration of the Marxmail list is helpful as a source of daily references, but also provides a home for "Assadist" accusations, including by John Reimann, the "Oakland Socialist," whom even Proyect had to dress down during the Venezuelan coup events etc. > > Proyect's critiques and denigration regarding what he calls "political Marxism" and the issue of the transition to capitalism (Robert Brenner, etc.) are opaque, overly-heated, confusing, and often irrelevant to any understanding of current events. Its seems to be a way of asserting some bizarre form of scholarly superiority, which is often used as the basis for ad hominem arguments in relation debates around current issues. > > Unfortunately, one of his acolytes appears to be Monthly Review editor Michael Yates, for whom I previously had some respect. > > It's all a strange combination of the historical, the esoteric, and the political, which undermines a clear perspective on what is being done in the present and what needs to be done about it. > > DG > > On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 6:57 AM David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: > His support for every regime change target of the U.S. government. > > Also, his sneaking in speakers at the last DSA conference in Chicago, of people who are directly funded by the NED. There was a big push back on this by DSA members from all over the country. So much so that the DSA national leadership will now screen all speakers of future workshops. Fortunately the 3 different workshops that had such speakers were only three or over thirty and they were sparsely attended. > > He and his co-horts , many the former national leadership of ISO ( International Socialist organization ) are a new generation of " Schachmanites ". Named after labor leader max schachmann, who was a TRotskist who became a cold war fanatic and worked for the national AFL-CIO and it's Institute for free Labor development, along with another of his ilk, Jay Lovestone, during the 1950's and 60's. . They were instrumental in wealening Left wing Unions in France, Germany, Italy and the UK after World War 2, as well as other Left populist Unions and organizations in later years in Latin America. > > David J. > > -----Original Message----- > From: C. G. Estabrook [mailto:carl at newsfromneptune.com] > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2019 10:52 PM > To: David Johnson > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes > > David? > > What evidence is there of Proyect?s being an agent of the U.S. State Department and the National Endowment for Democracy? > > Regards, CGE > > > > On Dec 8, 2019, at 5:27 PM, David Johnson wrote: > > > > Louis Proyect is a Shachtmanite pseudo Leftist who is a pro U.S. imperialist agent of the U.S. State Department and the National Endowment for Democracy. > > > > He has ZERO credibility. > > > > David J. > > > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of David Green via Peace-discuss > > Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2019 9:46 AM > > To: Brussel, Morton K > > Cc: Peace Discuss; J.B. Nicholson; Peace; David Green; Karen Aram; C G Estabrook > > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes > > > > Mort, I appreciate your comments and critique, and would be more than happy to understand beyond that shadow of the doubt that these indeed were "false flag" operations. I certainly don't have the technical competence to judge either Postol's article are the critique of his article by Jefferson Morley on this weekend's Counterpunch, which has also featured Louis Proyect's rejection of the "false flag" thesis. In any event, these discussions about Douma etc. obscure larger debates about the nature and origins of the regime change operation, which only feeds the "Assadist" charges against various characters. > > > > Nevertheless, I am indeed skeptical about someone like Vanessa Beeley, who seems naive to me in her regard for the Syrian regime. > > > > Unfortunately, the nature of the discussions around OPCW etc. are that people talk past each other, they never debate in good faith. Even given the rare opportunity to actually deploy scientific evidence and methodology, there seems to be no good faith effort to ascertain the evidence and induce whatever truth might be rigorously concluded in relation to a clear methodology. I don't think it's by accident that such a forum does not really exist, as Postol implied in his interview with Aaron Mate. > > > > DG > > > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 11:20 PM Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss wrote: > >> My response to the show discussions is that it was at best mixed. It ended with reflections of David Green expressing doubts about the Douma incident, which basically expressed his ignorance. T. Postal was pretty clear about what could have occurred. The levels of chlorine gas found was said to be background Chlorine levels, but more importantly there were the leaks of withheld information by the two whistleblowers of the OECD. Seemed pretty clear to me that this was a false flag operation. > >> The opening discussion about how identity politics obscures the class aspect of inequities I found to be turgid, whatever the ambiguous truths are to the arguments presented. Then there came the nonsensical sly apologetics regarding what Trump really wants. Caitlin Johnstone had a pertinent discussion about this [https://consortiumnews.com/2019/11/19/25-times-trump-has-been-dangerously-hawkish-on-russia/], leaving aside Trump's actions towards Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, Yemen, Bolivia, Iran, Syria,? And calling Assad truely a monster?? seemd gratuitous. > >> But the discussion about the Democratic candidates, Harris and Butagieg(sp?) seemed just right, as did the remarks about the weird impeachment phenomenon. > >> > >> > >> On Dec 6, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > >> > >> Good show > >> > >> My thoughts while watching: > >> > >> It might be of value to mention that CLR James, author of the Black Jacobins, Adolph Reed and others discussing ?race as not the issue, focus should be on class,? are not white. In a recent interview with Adolph Reed he claimed to have been a former Black Panther. > >> > >> Many believe Kamala Harris failure to generate support, was due to her tough law and order record when a DA in SF. She was no liberal. She is now playing the race card by claiming, ?America isn?t ready for a woman President, a black woman President.? > >> > >> As to Pete Buttagieg, it might be worth promoting the podcast discussion referred to by Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal. Their interview with journalist Peter Van Buren was very insightful. My employer had me charge Kinsey Consultants $1,000 an hour, consulting with me. Had I known what I know now, I would have charged double. > >> > >> https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121¬if_id=1575653773190302¬if_t=live_video > >> > >> Louis Proyect, the former ISO leadership, the local Black Rose Anarchists, and many others have lost credibility as ?Leftists,? when they support the USG intervention and war in Syria. Many are Trotskyist organizations, as claimed by Diana Johnstone, but not all, the WSWS.ORG does not support imperialism in Syria. > >> > >> Socialists/Communists generally do not support imperialism in Syria or anywhere else, if they do one should question there true intentions. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Dec 6, 2019, at 16:12, J.B. Nicholson via Peace wrote: > >> > >> News from Neptune #442 > >> A "Fight Race Reductionism" edition > >> Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6tW-stKUKc > >> > >> A list of links to items referenced on the show. > >> > >> Tariq Ali on "A Conversation with C.L.R. James" > >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1980/07/tariq-ali.htm > >> > >> Briahna Gray on "Beware the Race Reductionist" > >> https://theintercept.com/2018/08/26/beware-the-race-reductionist/ > >> > >> Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian Gordon Wood on the New York Times? 1619 Project" > >> https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html > >> > >> Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian James McPherson on the New York Times? 1619 Project" > >> https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html > >> > >> "Black Marxism" by Cedric Robinson > >> Published: October 2005 > >> Complete book: https://libcom.org/files/Black%20Marxism-Cedric%20J.%20Robinson.pdf > >> Paperback ISBN: 978-0-8078-4829-6 > >> eBook ISBN: 978-0-8078-7612-1 > >> > >> Gregory Myerson on "Tortilla Curtain and The Ecology of Fear" > >> https://projects.ncsu.edu/project/acontracorriente/fall_04/Meyerson.pdf > >> > >> "The Wages of Whiteness: Race and the Making of the American Working Class" by David Roediger > >> Complete book: https://caringlabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/roediger-the-wages-of-whiteness-race-and-the-making-of-the-american-working-class.pdf > >> > >> Noel Ignatiev and "Race Traitor" > >> Winter 2005 number 16: https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Race-Traitor-%E2%84%96-16-Winter-2005.pdf > >> > >> Articles about Noel Ignatiev > >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/15/noel-ignatiev-remembering-a-comrade-and-a-friend/ > >> http://www.renegadetribune.com/genocidal-jew-noel-ignatiev-is-dead-good-riddance/ > >> > >> "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev > >> ISBN: 0415918251 > >> ISBN13: 9780415918251 > >> > >> Theodore W. Allen on "On Roediger's Wages of Whiteness" > >> http://www.elegantbrain.com/edu4/classes/readings/race-roediger-allen.html > >> > >> Cedric Johnson on "The Wages of Roediger: Why Three Decades of Whiteness Studies Has Not Produced the Left We Need" > >> https://nonsite.org/article/the-wages-of-roediger-why-three-decades-of-whiteness-studies-has-not-produced-the-left-we-need > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Barbara J. Fields on "Slavery, Race and Ideology in the United States of America" > >> https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2763-slavery-race-and-ideology-in-the-united-states-of-america > >> > >> David Green's "Wealth gap" post to peace-discuss > >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051656.html > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> David Green's recent letters to the editor of the News-Gazette > >> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-harassment-study-is-silly-propaganda/article_9d4eee6b-a8fa-5d8a-8609-169c0d256af9.html -- "Harassment study is silly propaganda" > >> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor-concerns-voiced-about-bend-the-arc/article_99b2ac36-4279-5cad-8b60-892ca30dde6e.html -- "Concerns voiced about Bend the Arc" > >> > >> C. G. Estabrook on News-Gazette?s feature ?Those Who Served? weekly feature in a letter to the News-Gazette > >> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-u-s-has-killed-millions-in/article_87b213e5-9f21-5acf-8f54-df41b18d026d.html > >> > >> Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow" > >> https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon#Gravity's_Rainbow_(1973) > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Moderate Rebels on "What was Pete Buttigieg doing in Iraq?: US gov whistleblower on war profiteering and corruption" > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9V-HlSyiwE > >> https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/moderaterebels/Moderate_Rebels_Pete_Buttigieg_Iraq_Peter_Van_Buren.mp3?dest-id=553365 > >> > >> Alicia Luke on "Buttigieg Admits No Combat Ribbon From Deployment To Afghanistan" > >> https://freedomoutpost.com/buttigieg-admits-no-combat-ribbon-from-deployment-to-afghanistan/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Louis Proyect on "Douma, Chlorine Gas and Occam?s Razor" > >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/22/douma-chlorine-gas-and-occams-razor/ > >> > >> Jefferson Morley on "Why the Douma Chemical Attack Wasn?t a ?Managed Massacre?" > >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/06/why-the-douma-chemical-attack-wasnt-a-managed-massacre/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> J.B. Nicholson's notes > >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015404.html > >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051610.html > >> > >> -J > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Peace mailing list > >> Peace at lists.chambana.net > >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Peace-discuss mailing list > >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Peace-discuss mailing list > >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Wed Dec 11 00:32:39 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 18:32:39 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The Afghanistan Papers A secret history of the war Message-ID: <018001d5afba$7ef1a080$7cd4e180$@comcast.net> The Afghanistan Papers A secret history of the war At war with the truth U.S. officials constantly said they were making progress. They were not, and they knew it, an exclusive Post investigation found. By Craig Whitlock Dec. 9, 2019 Konar province, 2010 (Moises Saman/Magnum Photos) The Pentagon, 2003 (David Hume Kennerly/Getty Images) Fort Campbell, KY., 2014 (Matt McClain/The Washington Post) A confidential trove of government documents obtained by The Washington Post reveals that senior U.S. officials failed to tell the truth about the war in Afghanistan throughout the 18-year campaign, making rosy pronouncements they knew to be false and hiding unmistakable evidence the war had become unwinnable. The documents were generated by a federal project examining the root failures of the longest armed conflict in U.S. history. They include more than 2,000 pages of previously unpublished notes of interviews with people who played a direct role in the war, from generals and diplomats to aid workers and Afghan officials. The U.S. government tried to shield the identities of the vast majority of those interviewed for the project and conceal nearly all of their remarks. The Post won release of the documents under the Freedom of Information Act after a three-year legal battle. More stories The Afghanistan Papers Part 1: At war with the truth Part 1 At war with the truth U.S. officials constantly said they were making progress. They were not, and they knew it. Part 2 Stranded without a strategy Bush and Obama had polar-opposite plans to win the war. Both were destined to fail. Part 3 Built to fail Despite vows the U.S. wouldn?t get mired in ?nation-building,? it has wasted billions doing just that Part 4 Consumed by corruption The U.S. flooded the country with money ? then turned a blind eye to the graft it fueled Part 5 Unguarded nation Afghan security forces, despite years of training, were dogged by incompetence and corruption Part 6 Overwhelmed by opium The U.S. war on drugs in Afghanistan has imploded at nearly every turn Interviews and memos Explore the documents Key insiders speak bluntly about the failures of the longest conflict in U.S. history Post Reports ?We didn?t know what the task was? Hear candid interviews with former ambassador Ryan Crocker and retired Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn The fight for the documents About the investigation It took three years and two federal lawsuits for The Post to pry loose 2,000 pages of interview records More stories A visual timeline of the war Interviewees respond Share your story about the war In the interviews, more than 400 insiders offered unrestrained criticism of what went wrong in Afghanistan and how the United States became mired in nearly two decades of warfare. With a bluntness rarely expressed in public, the interviews lay bare pent-up complaints, frustrations and confessions, along with second-guessing and backbiting. Click any underlined text in the story to see the statement in the original document ?We were devoid of a fundamental understanding of Afghanistan ? we didn?t know what we were doing,? Douglas Lute, a three-star Army general who served as the White House?s Afghan war czar during the Bush and Obama administrations, told government interviewers in 2015. He added: ?What are we trying to do here? We didn?t have the foggiest notion of what we were undertaking.? ?If the American people knew the magnitude of this dysfunction .?.?. 2,400 lives lost,? Lute added, blaming the deaths of U.S. military personnel on bureaucratic breakdowns among Congress, the Pentagon and the State Department. ?Who will say this was in vain?? Since 2001, more than 775,000 U.S. troops have deployed to Afghanistan, many repeatedly. Of those, 2,300 died there and 20,589 were wounded in action, according to Defense Department figures. The interviews, through an extensive array of voices, bring into sharp relief the core failings of the war that persist to this day. They underscore how three presidents ? George W. Bush, Barack Obama and Donald Trump ? and their military commanders have been unable to deliver on their promises to prevail in Afghanistan. The Afghanistan Papers See the documents More than 2,000 pages of interviews and memos reveal a secret history of the war. Part 2: Stranded without a strategy Conflicting objectives dogged the war from the start. Responses to The Post from people named in The Afghanistan Papers With most speaking on the assumption that their remarks would not become public, U.S. officials acknowledged that their warfighting strategies were fatally flawed and that Washington wasted enormous sums of money trying to remake Afghanistan into a modern nation. The interviews also highlight the U.S. government?s botched attempts to curtail runaway corruption, build a competent Afghan army and police force, and put a dent in Afghanistan?s thriving opium trade. The U.S. government has not carried out a comprehensive accounting of how much it has spent on the war in Afghanistan, but the costs are staggering. Since 2001, the Defense Department, State Department and U.S. Agency for International Development have spent or appropriated between $934 billion and $978 billion, according to an inflation-adjusted estimate calculated by Neta Crawford, a political science professor and co-director of the Costs of War Project at Brown University. Those figures do not include money spent by other agencies such as the CIA and the Department of Veterans Affairs, which is responsible for medical care for wounded veterans. ?What did we get for this $1 trillion effort? Was it worth $1 trillion?? Jeffrey Eggers, a retired Navy SEAL and White House staffer for Bush and Obama, told government interviewers. He added, ?After the killing of Osama bin Laden, I said that Osama was probably laughing in his watery grave considering how much we have spent on Afghanistan.? The documents also contradict a long chorus of public statements from U.S. presidents, military commanders and diplomats who assured Americans year after year that they were making progress in Afghanistan and the war was worth fighting. Exclusive: A secret history of the war in Afghanistan, revealed 17:36 (Video by Joyce Lee/The Washington Post) Several of those interviewed described explicit and sustained efforts by the U.S. government to deliberately mislead the public. They said it was common at military headquarters in Kabul ? and at the White House ? to distort statistics to make it appear the United States was winning the war when that was not the case. UZBEK. TURKMEN. TAJIK. Kabul AFGHANISTAN Kandahar HELMAND PROV. PAKISTAN IRAN INDIA 100 MILES ?Every data point was altered to present the best picture possible,? Bob Crowley, an Army colonel who served as a senior counterinsurgency adviser to U.S. military commanders in 2013 and 2014, told government interviewers. ?Surveys, for instance, were totally unreliable but reinforced that everything we were doing was right and we became a self-licking ice cream cone.? John Sopko, the head of the federal agency that conducted the interviews, acknowledged to The Post that the documents show ?the American people have constantly been lied to.? The interviews are the byproduct of a project led by Sopko?s agency, the Office of the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction. Known as SIGAR, the agency was created by Congress in 2008 to investigate waste and fraud in the war zone. In 2014, at Sopko?s direction, SIGAR departed from its usual mission of performing audits and launched a side venture. Titled ?Lessons Learned,? the $11 million project was meant to diagnose policy failures in Afghanistan so the United States would not repeat the mistakes the next time it invaded a country or tried to rebuild a shattered one. The Lessons Learned staff interviewed more than 600 people with firsthand experience in the war. Most were Americans, but SIGAR analysts also traveled to London, Brussels and Berlin to interview NATO allies. In addition, they interviewed about 20 Afghan officials, discussing reconstruction and development programs. Drawing partly on the interviews, as well as other government records and statistics, SIGAR has published seven Lessons Learned reports since 2016 that highlight problems in Afghanistan and recommend changes to stabilize the country. But the reports, written in dense bureaucratic prose and focused on an alphabet soup of government initiatives, left out the harshest and most frank criticisms from the interviews. ?We found the stabilization strategy and the programs used to achieve it were not properly tailored to the Afghan context, and successes in stabilizing Afghan districts rarely lasted longer than the physical presence of coalition troops and civilians,? read the introduction to one report released in May 2018. The reports also omitted the names of more than 90 percent of the people who were interviewed for the project. While a few officials agreed to speak on the record to SIGAR, the agency said it promised anonymity to everyone else it interviewed to avoid controversy over politically sensitive matters. Under the Freedom of Information Act, The Post began seeking Lessons Learned interview records in August 2016. SIGAR refused, arguing that the documents were privileged and that the public had no right to see them. The Post had to sue SIGAR in federal court ? twice ? to compel it to release the documents. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/documents/dobbins-james_ll_02212018.png ?We don?tinvadepoorcountriesto makethemrich.We don?tinvadeauthoritariancountriesto makethemdemocratic.Weinvadeviolentcountriesto makethempeacefulandweclearlyfailedinAfghanistan.? ? James Dobbins, former U.S. diplomat Listen The agency eventually disclosed more than 2,000 pages of unpublished notes and transcripts from 428 of the interviews, as well as several audio recordings. The documents identify 62 of the people who were interviewed, but SIGAR blacked out the names of 366 others. In legal briefs, the agency contended that those individuals should be seen as whistleblowers and informants who might face humiliation, harassment, retaliation or physical harm if their names became public. By cross-referencing dates and other details from the documents, The Post independently identified 33 other people who were interviewed, including several former ambassadors, generals and White House officials. The Post has asked a federal judge to force SIGAR to disclose the names of everyone else interviewed, arguing that the public has a right to know which officials criticized the war and asserted that the government had misled the American people. The Post also argued the officials were not whistleblowers or informants, because they were not interviewed as part of an investigation. A decision by Judge Amy Berman Jackson of the U.S. District Court in Washington has been pending since late September. The Post is publishing the documents now, instead of waiting for a final ruling, to inform the public while the Trump administration is negotiating with the Taliban and considering whether to withdraw the 13,000 U.S. troops who remain in Afghanistan. The Post attempted to contact for comment everyone whom it was able to identify as having given an interview to SIGAR. Their responses are compiled in a separate article. Sopko, the inspector general, told The Post that he did not suppress the blistering criticisms and doubts about the war that officials raised in the Lessons Learned interviews. He said it took his office three years to release the records because he has a small staff and because other federal agencies had to review the documents to prevent government secrets from being disclosed. ?We didn?t sit on it,? he said. ?We?re firm believers in openness and transparency, but we?ve got to follow the law. .?.?. I think of any inspector general, I?ve probably been the most forthcoming on information.? The interview records are raw and unedited, and SIGAR?s Lessons Learned staff did not stitch them into a unified narrative. But they are packed with tough judgments from people who shaped or carried out U.S. policy in Afghanistan. ?We don?t invade poor countries to make them rich,? James Dobbins, a former senior U.S. diplomat who served as a special envoy to Afghanistan under Bush and Obama, told government interviewers. ?We don?t invade authoritarian countries to make them democratic. We invade violent countries to make them peaceful and we clearly failed in Afghanistan.? >From left, Gen. David H. Petraeus, Joint Chiefs Chairman Michael Mullen, Veterans Affairs Secretary Eric Shinseki and Defense Secretary Robert Gates at the U.S. Military Academy in West Point, N.Y., in 2009 as President Barack Obama publicly outlined his plans for a troop surge in Afghanistan. (Christopher Morris/VII/Redux) To augment the Lessons Learned interviews, The Post obtained hundreds of pages of previously classified memos about the Afghan war that were dictated by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld between 2001 and 2006. Dubbed ?snowflakes? by Rumsfeld and his staff, the memos are brief instructions or comments that the Pentagon boss dictated to his underlings, often several times a day. Rumsfeld made a select number of his snowflakes public in 2011, posting them online in conjunction with his memoir, ?Known and Unknown.? But most of his snowflake collection ? an estimated 59,000 pages ? remained secret. In 2017, in response to a FOIA lawsuit filed by the National Security Archive, a nonprofit research institute based at George Washington University, the Defense Department began reviewing and releasing the remainder of Rumsfeld?s snowflakes on a rolling basis. The Archive shared them with The Post. Together, the SIGAR interviews and the Rumsfeld memos pertaining to Afghanistan constitute a secret history of the war and an unsparing appraisal of 18 years of conflict. Worded in Rumsfeld?s brusque style, many of the snowflakes foreshadow problems that continue to haunt the U.S. military more than a decade later. ?I may be impatient. In fact I know I?m a bit impatient,? Rumsfeld wrote in one memo to several generals and senior aides. ?We are never going to get the U.S. military out of Afghanistan unless we take care to see that there is something going on that will provide the stability that will be necessary for us to leave.? ?Help!? he wrote. The memo was dated April 17, 2002 ? six months after the war started. What they said in public April 17, 2002 ?The history of military conflict in Afghanistan [has] been one of initial success, followed by long years of floundering and ultimate failure. We?re not going to repeat that mistake.? ? President George W. Bush, in a speech at the Virginia Military Institute With their forthright descriptions of how the United States became stuck in a faraway war, as well as the government's determination to conceal them from the public, the Lessons Learned interviews broadly resemble the Pentagon Papers, the Defense Department's top-secret history of the Vietnam War. When they were leaked in 1971, the Pentagon Papers caused a sensation by revealing the government had long misled the public about how the United States came to be embroiled in Vietnam. Bound into 47 volumes, the 7,000-page study was based entirely on internal government documents ? diplomatic cables, decision-making memos, intelligence reports. To preserve secrecy, Defense Secretary Robert McNamara issued an order prohibiting the authors from interviewing anyone. SIGAR?s Lessons Learned project faced no such restrictions. Staffers carried out the interviews between 2014 and 2018, mostly with officials who served during the Bush and Obama years. About 30 of the interview records are transcribed, word-for-word accounts. The rest are typed summaries of conversations: pages of notes and quotes from people with different vantage points in the conflict, from provincial outposts to the highest circles of power. Some of the interviews are inexplicably short. The interview record with John Allen, the Marine general who commanded U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan from 2011 to 2013, consists of five paragraphs. In contrast, records of interviews with other influential figures are much more extensive. Former U.S. ambassador Ryan Crocker sat for two interviews that yielded 95 transcribed pages. Unlike the Pentagon Papers, none of the Lessons Learned documents were originally classified as a government secret. Once The Post pushed to make them public, however, other federal agencies intervened and classified some material after the fact. The State Department, for instance, asserted that releasing portions of certain interviews could jeopardize negotiations with the Taliban to end the war. The Defense Department and Drug Enforcement Administration also classified some interview excerpts. The Lessons Learned interviews contain few revelations about military operations. But running throughout are torrents of criticism that refute the official narrative of the war, from its earliest days through the start of the Trump administration. At the outset, for instance, the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan had a clear, stated objective ? to retaliate against al-Qaeda and prevent a repeat of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. A joint artillery training session at a combat outpost in Jaghatu, in Wardak province, in 2012. (Lorenzo Tugnoli for The Washington Post) Yet the interviews show that as the war dragged on, the goals and mission kept changing and a lack of faith in the U.S. strategy took root inside the Pentagon, the White House and the State Department. Fundamental disagreements went unresolved. Some U.S. officials wanted to use the war to turn Afghanistan into a democracy. Others wanted to transform Afghan culture and elevate women?s rights. Still others wanted to reshape the regional balance of power among Pakistan, India, Iran and Russia. ?With the AfPak strategy there was a present under the Christmas tree for everyone,? an unidentified U.S. official told government interviewers in 2015. ?By the time you were finished you had so many priorities and aspirations it was like no strategy at all.? The Lessons Learned interviews also reveal how U.S. military commanders struggled to articulate who they were fighting, let alone why. Was al-Qaeda the enemy, or the Taliban? Was Pakistan a friend or an adversary? What about the Islamic State and the bewildering array of foreign jihadists, let alone the warlords on the CIA?s payroll? According to the documents, the U.S. government never settled on an answer. As a result, in the field, U.S. troops often couldn?t tell friend from foe. ?They thought I was going to come to them with a map to show them where the good guys and bad guys live,? an unnamed former adviser to an Army Special Forces team told government interviewers in 2017. ?It took several conversations for them to understand that I did not have that information in my hands. At first, they just kept asking: ?But who are the bad guys, where are they???? The view wasn?t any clearer from the Pentagon. ?I have no visibility into who the bad guys are,? Rumsfeld complained in a Sept. 8, 2003, snowflake. ?We are woefully deficient in human intelligence.? What they said in public Dec. 1, 2009 ?The days of providing a blank check are over. .?.?. It must be clear that Afghans will have to take responsibility for their security and that America has no interest in fighting an endless war in Afghanistan.? ? President Barack Obama, in a speech at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, N.Y. As commanders in chief, Bush, Obama and Trump all promised the public the same thing. They would avoid falling into the trap of "nation-building" in Afghanistan. On that score, the presidents failed miserably. The United States has allocated more than $133 billion to build up Afghanistan ? more than it spent, adjusted for inflation, to revive the whole of Western Europe with the Marshall Plan after World War II. The Lessons Learned interviews show the grandiose nation-building project was marred from the start. U.S. officials tried to create ? from scratch ? a democratic government in Kabul modeled after their own in Washington. It was a foreign concept to the Afghans, who were accustomed to tribalism, monarchism, communism and Islamic law. ?Our policy was to create a strong central government which was idiotic because Afghanistan does not have a history of a strong central government,? an unidentified former State Department official told government interviewers in 2015. ?The timeframe for creating a strong central government is 100 years, which we didn?t have.? Meanwhile, the United States flooded the fragile country with far more aid than it could possibly absorb. During the peak of the fighting, from 2009 to 2012, U.S. lawmakers and military commanders believed the more they spent on schools, bridges, canals and other civil-works projects, the faster security would improve. Aid workers told government interviewers it was a colossal misjudgment, akin to pumping kerosene on a dying campfire just to keep the flame alive. U.S. soldiers wounded by an IED are transported by medevac in Kandahar province in 2010. (Linda Davidson/The Washington Post) One unnamed executive with the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) guessed that 90 percent of what they spent was overkill: ?We lost objectivity. We were given money, told to spend it and we did, without reason.? Many aid workers blamed Congress for what they saw as a mindless rush to spend. One unidentified contractor told government interviewers he was expected to dole out $3 million daily for projects in a single Afghan district roughly the size of a U.S. county. He once asked a visiting congressman whether the lawmaker could responsibly spend that kind of money back home: ?He said hell no. ?Well, sir, that?s what you just obligated us to spend and I?m doing it for communities that live in mud huts with no windows.??? The gusher of aid that Washington spent on Afghanistan also gave rise to historic levels of corruption. In public, U.S. officials insisted they had no tolerance for graft. But in the Lessons Learned interviews, they admitted the U.S. government looked the other way while Afghan power brokers ? allies of Washington ? plundered with impunity. Christopher Kolenda, an Army colonel who deployed to Afghanistan several times and advised three U.S. generals in charge of the war, said that the Afghan government led by President Hamid Karzai had ?self-organized into a kleptocracy? by 2006 ? and that U.S. officials failed to recognize the lethal threat it posed to their strategy. ?I like to use a cancer analogy,? Kolenda told government interviewers. ?Petty corruption is like skin cancer; there are ways to deal with it and you?ll probably be just fine. Corruption within the ministries, higher level, is like colon cancer; it?s worse, but if you catch it in time, you?re probably ok. Kleptocracy, however, is like brain cancer; it?s fatal.? A banner depicting President Hamid Karzai in Kabul shortly after the country?s 2004 election. (Emilio Morenatti/AP) By allowing corruption to fester, U.S. officials told interviewers, they helped destroy the popular legitimacy of the wobbly Afghan government they were fighting to prop up. With judges and police chiefs and bureaucrats extorting bribes, many Afghans soured on democracy and turned to the Taliban to enforce order. ?Our biggest single project, sadly and inadvertently, of course, may have been the development of mass corruption,? Crocker, who served as the top U.S. diplomat in Kabul in 2002 and again from 2011 to 2012, told government interviewers. He added, ?Once it gets to the level I saw, when I was out there, it?s somewhere between unbelievably hard and outright impossible to fix it.? What they said in public Sept. 4, 2013 ?This army and this police force have been very, very effective in combat against the insurgents every single day. And I think that?s an important story to be told across the board.? ? Then-Army Lt. Gen. Mark A. Milley, praising the Afghan security forces during a press briefing from Kabul. Milley is now a four-star general and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Year after year, U.S. generals have said in public they are making steady progress on the central plank of their strategy: to train a robust Afghan army and national police force that can defend the country without foreign help. In the Lessons Learned interviews, however, U.S. military trainers described the Afghan security forces as incompetent, unmotivated and rife with deserters. They also accused Afghan commanders of pocketing salaries ? paid by U.S. taxpayers ? for tens of thousands of ?ghost soldiers.? None expressed confidence that the Afghan army and police could ever fend off, much less defeat, the Taliban on their own. More than 60,000 members of Afghan security forces have been killed, a casualty rate that U.S. commanders have called unsustainable. Afghan army recruits in Kabul in 2009. (Emilio Morenatti/AP) One unidentified U.S. soldier said Special Forces teams ?hated? the Afghan police whom they trained and worked with, calling them ?awful ? the bottom of the barrel in the country that is already at the bottom of the barrel.? A U.S. military officer estimated that one-third of police recruits were ?drug addicts or Taliban.? Yet another called them ?stealing fools? who looted so much fuel from U.S. bases that they perpetually smelled of gasoline. ?Thinking we could build the military that fast and that well was insane,? an unnamed senior USAID official told government interviewers. Meanwhile, as U.S. hopes for the Afghan security forces failed to materialize, Afghanistan became the world?s leading source of a growing scourge: opium. The United States has spent about $9 billion to fight the problem over the past 18 years, but Afghan farmers are cultivating more opium poppies than ever. Last year, Afghanistan was responsible for 82 percent of global opium production, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. In the Lessons Learned interviews, former officials said almost everything they did to constrain opium farming backfired. ?We stated that our goal is to establish a ?flourishing market economy,??? said Douglas Lute, the White House?s Afghan war czar from 2007 to 2013. ?I thought we should have specified a flourishing drug trade ? this is the only part of the market that?s working.? Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel speaks to U.S. troops in 2013 at Camp Bastion, in Helmand province. (Mark Wilson/Getty Images) >From the beginning, Washington never really figured out how to incorporate a war on drugs into its war against al-Qaeda. By 2006, U.S. officials feared that narco-traffickers had become stronger than the Afghan government and that money from the drug trade was powering the insurgency. No single agency or country was in charge of the Afghan drug strategy for the entirety of the war, so the State Department, the DEA, the U.S. military, NATO allies and the Afghan government butted heads constantly. ?It was a dog?s breakfast with no chance of working,? an unnamed former senior British official told government interviewers. The agencies and allies made things worse by embracing a dysfunctional muddle of programs, according to the interviews. At first, Afghan poppy farmers were paid by the British to destroy their crops ? which only encouraged them to grow more the next season. Later, the U.S. government eradicated poppy fields without compensation ? which only infuriated farmers and encouraged them to side with the Taliban. ?It was sad to see so many people behave so stupidly,? one U.S. official told government interviewers. What they said in public Sept. 8, 2008 ?Are we losing this war? Absolutely no way. Can the enemy win it? Absolutely no way.? ? Army Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Schloesser, commander of the 101st Airborne Division, in a news briefing from Afghanistan The specter of Vietnam has hovered over Afghanistan from the start. On Oct. 11, 2001, a few days after the United States started bombing the Taliban, a reporter asked Bush: ?Can you avoid being drawn into a Vietnam-like quagmire in Afghanistan?? ?We learned some very important lessons in Vietnam,? Bush replied confidently. ?People often ask me, ?How long will this last?? This particular battlefront will last as long as it takes to bring al-Qaeda to justice. It may happen tomorrow, it may happen a month from now, it may take a year or two. But we will prevail.? In those early days, other U.S. leaders mocked the notion that the nightmare of Vietnam might repeat itself in Afghanistan. ?All together now ? quagmire!? Rumsfeld joked at a news conference on Nov. 27, 2001. But throughout the Afghan war, documents show that U.S. military officials have resorted to an old tactic from Vietnam ? manipulating public opinion. In news conferences and other public appearances, those in charge of the war have followed the same talking points for 18 years. No matter how the war is going ? and especially when it is going badly ? they emphasize how they are making progress. For example, some snowflakes that Rumsfeld released with his memoir show he had received a string of unusually dire warnings from the war zone in 2006. After returning from a fact-finding mission to Afghanistan, Barry McCaffrey, a retired Army general, reported the Taliban had made an impressive comeback and predicted that ?we will encounter some very unpleasant surprises in the coming 24 months.? ?The Afghan national leadership are collectively terrified that we will tip-toe out of Afghanistan in the coming few years ? leaving NATO holding the bag ? and the whole thing will collapse again into mayhem,? McCaffrey wrote in June 2006. Two months later, Marin Strmecki, a civilian adviser to Rumsfeld, gave the Pentagon chief a classified, 40-page report loaded with more bad news. It said ?enormous popular discontent is building? against the Afghan government because of its corruption and incompetence. It also said that the Taliban was growing stronger, thanks to support from Pakistan, a U.S. ally. Yet with Rumsfeld?s personal blessing, the Pentagon buried the bleak warnings and told the public a very different story. Air Force Gen. Richard B. Myers, left, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld in March 2002. (Robert A. Reeder/The Washington Post) In October 2006, Rumsfeld?s speechwriters delivered a paper titled ?Afghanistan: Five Years Later.? Brimming with optimism, it highlighted more than 50 promising facts and figures, from the number of Afghan women trained in ?improved poultry management? (more than 19,000) to the ?average speed on most roads? (up 300 percent). ?Five years on, there is a multitude of good news,? it read. ?While it has become fashionable in some circles to call Afghanistan a forgotten war, or to say the United States has lost its focus, the facts belie the myths.? Rumsfeld thought it was brilliant. ?This paper,? he wrote in a memo, ?is an excellent piece. How do we use it? Should it be an article? An Op-ed piece? A handout? A press briefing? All of the above? I think it ought to get it to a lot of people.? His staffers made sure it did. They circulated a version to reporters and posted it on Pentagon websites. Since then, U.S. generals have almost always preached that the war is progressing well, no matter the reality on the battlefield. ?We?re making some steady progress,? Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Schloesser, commander of the 101st Airborne Division, told reporters in September 2008, even as he and other U.S. commanders in Kabul were urgently requesting reinforcements to cope with a rising tide of Taliban fighters. Two years later, as the casualty rate among U.S. and NATO troops climbed to another high, Army Lt. Gen. David Rodriguez held a news conference in Kabul. ?First, we are steadily making deliberate progress,? he said. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/documents/flynn_michael_ll_11102015.png ?And thisincludesthe StateDepartment,ambassadors,you know,down atthelocallevel.Everybodydid agreatjob.We?re alldoing agreatjob.Really?So ifwe?redoingsuch agreatjob,whydoes itfeel likewe?relosing?? ? Michael Flynn, a retired three-star Army general Listen In March 2011, during congressional hearings, skeptical lawmakers pelted Army Gen. David H. Petraeus, the commander of U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan, with doubts that the U.S. strategy was working. ?The past eight months have seen important but hard-fought progress,? Petraeus responded. One year later, during a visit to Afghanistan, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta stuck to the same script ? even though he had just personally dodged a suicide attack. ?The campaign, as I?ve pointed out before, I think has made significant progress,? Panetta told reporters. In July 2016, after a surge in Taliban attacks on major cities, Army Gen. John W. Nicholson Jr., the commander of U.S. forces in Afghanistan at the time, repeated the refrain. ?We are seeing some progress,? he told reporters. What they said in public March 27, 2009 ?Going forward, we will not blindly stay the course. Instead, we will set clear metrics to measure progress and hold ourselves accountable.? ? Obama, in remarks from the White House During Vietnam, U.S. military commanders relied on dubious measurements to persuade Americans that they were winning. Most notoriously, the Pentagon highlighted ?body counts,? or the number of enemy fighters killed, and inflated the figures as a measurement of success. In Afghanistan, with occasional exceptions, the U.S. military has generally avoided publicizing body counts. But the Lessons Learned interviews contain numerous admissions that the government routinely touted statistics that officials knew were distorted, spurious or downright false. The toll of war Since 2001, an estimated 157,000 people have been killed in the war in Afghanistan. Afghan civilians 43,074* Afghan security forces 64,124* 424 Humanitarian aid workers 3,814 Taliban fighters and other insurgents U.S. contractors 67 Journalists and media workers 2,300 42,100* U.S. military personnel 1,145 NATO and coalition troops *estimated Note: U.S. military number is current through November 2019. The other figures and estimates are current as of October 2019. Sources: Defense Department; Costs of War Project, Brown University; U.N. Assistance Mission in Afghanistan; Committee to Protect Journalists A person identified only as a senior National Security Council official said there was constant pressure from the Obama White House and Pentagon to produce figures to show the troop surge of 2009 to 2011 was working, despite hard evidence to the contrary. ?It was impossible to create good metrics. We tried using troop numbers trained, violence levels, control of territory and none of it painted an accurate picture,? the senior NSC official told government interviewers in 2016. ?The metrics were always manipulated for the duration of the war.? Even when casualty counts and other figures looked bad, the senior NSC official said, the White House and Pentagon would spin them to the point of absurdity. Suicide bombings in Kabul were portrayed as a sign of the Taliban?s desperation, that the insurgents were too weak to engage in direct combat. Meanwhile, a rise in U.S. troop deaths was cited as proof that American forces were taking the fight to the enemy. The remains of Army Maj. Gen. Harold J. Greene, 55, arrive at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware in August 2014. Greene was the first U.S. general killed in Iraq or Afghanistan. (Linda Davidson/The Washington Post) ?It was their explanations,? the senior NSC official said. ?For example, attacks are getting worse? ?That?s because there are more targets for them to fire at, so more attacks are a false indicator of instability.? Then, three months later, attacks are still getting worse? ?It?s because the Taliban are getting desperate, so it?s actually an indicator that we?re winning.??? ?And this went on and on for two reasons,? the senior NSC official said, ?to make everyone involved look good, and to make it look like the troops and resources were having the kind of effect where removing them would cause the country to deteriorate.? In other field reports sent up the chain of command, military officers and diplomats took the same line. Regardless of conditions on the ground, they claimed they were making progress. ?From the ambassadors down to the low level, [they all say] we are doing a great job,? Michael Flynn, a retired three-star Army general, told government interviewers in 2015. ?Really? So if we are doing such a great job, why does it feel like we are losing?? Upon arrival in Afghanistan, U.S. Army brigade and battalion commanders were given the same basic mission: to protect the population and defeat the enemy, according to Flynn, who served multiple tours in Afghanistan as an intelligence officer. ?So they all went in for whatever their rotation was, nine months or six months, and were given that mission, accepted that mission and executed that mission,? said Flynn, who later briefly served as Trump?s national security adviser, lost his job in a scandal and was convicted of lying to the FBI. ?Then they all said, when they left, they accomplished that mission. Every single commander. Not one commander is going to leave Afghanistan .?.?. and say, ?You know what, we didn?t accomplish our mission.??? He added: ?So the next guy that shows up finds it [their area] screwed up .?.?. and then they come back and go, ?Man this is really bad.??? Lt. Gen. David Rodriguez arrives at Forward Operating Base Pasab in Kandahar province for a transfer-of-authority ceremony in 2011. (Mikhail Galustov for The Washington Post) Bob Crowley, the retired Army colonel who served as a counterinsurgency adviser in Afghanistan in 2013 and 2014, told government interviewers that ?truth was rarely welcome? at military headquarters in Kabul. ?Bad news was often stifled,? he said. ?There was more freedom to share bad news if it was small ? we?re running over kids with our MRAPs [armored vehicles] ? because those things could be changed with policy directives. But when we tried to air larger strategic concerns about the willingness, capacity or corruption of the Afghan government, it was clear it wasn?t welcome.? John Garofano, a Naval War College strategist who advised Marines in Helmand province in 2011, said military officials in the field devoted an inordinate amount of resources to churning out color-coded charts that heralded positive results. ?They had a really expensive machine that would print the really large pieces of paper like in a print shop,? he told government interviewers. ?There would be a caveat that these are not actually scientific figures, or this is not a scientific process behind this.? But Garofano said nobody dared to question whether the charts and numbers were credible or meaningful. ?There was not a willingness to answer questions such as, what is the meaning of this number of schools that you have built? How has that progressed you towards your goal?? he said. ?How do you show this as evidence of success and not just evidence of effort or evidence of just doing a good thing?? Other senior officials said they placed great importance on one statistic in particular, albeit one the U.S. government rarely likes to discuss in public. ?I do think the key benchmark is the one I?ve suggested, which is how many Afghans are getting killed,? James Dobbins, the former U.S. diplomat, told a Senate panel in 2009. ?If the number?s going up, you?re losing. If the number?s going down, you?re winning. It?s as simple as that.? Last year, 3,804 Afghan civilians were killed in the war, according to the United Nations. That is the most in one year since the United Nations began tracking casualties a decade ago. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 266010 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 666716 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Wed Dec 11 18:41:26 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 12:41:26 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Film related to Vietnam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80484CBD-7294-4EBE-AC71-E9650929465A@newsfromneptune.com> A great film - a picture of Vietnam long before Kennedy?s aerial invasion of the South in 1962: . Another good film set in the same time and place was made from Graham Greene's excellent novel, ?The Quiet American?: . It was directed by Phillip Noyce and starred Michael Caine, Brendan Fraser, and Do Thi Hai Yen; don?t confuse it with the 1958 film with Audie Murphy and Michael Redgrave - which is much inferior. ?CGE > On Dec 10, 2019, at 6:17 PM, Karen Aram wrote: > > The film is Indochine, in French with English subtitles. It was supposed to have taken place in the north, was filmed mainly in Imperial City, Hue, Ha Long (Ha Long Bay) and Ninh Binh (Ph?t Di?m Cathedral) in Vietnam. Butterworth in Malaysia was used as a substitute for Saigon. Some parts were filmed in Cheong Fatt Tze Mansion, in George Town, Penang, Malaysia. > > Hue is supposed to be a must see in Vietnam, and what was portrayed as Saigon in the film was beautiful, though it likely was Malaysia. I?ve been to Malaysia and parts of it are beautiful. > > The film won many awards for best foreign language film, in or around 1992 or 93. From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Thu Dec 12 01:17:02 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 19:17:02 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] documents showing the US is demanding that the UK NHS ( national Health Service ) will be 'on the table' in talks on a post-Brexit trade deal, Jeremy Corbyn has said. Message-ID: <00e401d5b089$dc74d4f0$955e7ed0$@comcast.net> The UK Labour party has obtained official documents showing the US is demanding that the UK NHS ( National Health Service ) will be 'on the table' in talks on a post-Brexit trade deal, Jeremy Corbyn has said. The Labour leader said the uncensored papers gave the lie to Boris Johnson's claims that the health service would not be part of any trade talks. 'The uncensored documents leave Boris Johnson's denials in absolute tatters,' he told a news conference in London https://www.theguardian.com/society/video/2019/nov/27/jeremy-corbyn-reveals- document-proving-nhs-up-for-sale-video -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Thu Dec 12 02:37:17 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 20:37:17 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] I Knew the War in Afghanistan was a Lie Message-ID: <48BF2829-8AC3-406B-9A26-75EB6FB16C6A@newsfromneptune.com> https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-delusion-behind-the-war-in-afghanistan/ From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Thu Dec 12 14:12:50 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 08:12:50 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] U.K. General election 2019 Message-ID: <002e01d5b0f6$3d78d4b0$b86a7e10$@comcast.net> The Guardian Politics live with Andrew Sparrow Politics live with Andrew Sparrow General election 2019 U.K. General election 2019: voters queue for 'most important poll in a generation' - live news Both Labour and Conservatives say vote offers stark choice between the two parties. Follow the latest developments - live * Who to vote for: bite-size guide to the manifestos * What time will we know who won? Election night guide * What to watch for on election day - video explainer * Have you experienced any voting issues? https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/dec/12/general-election-2019- uk-polling-day-live-news -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 174 bytes Desc: not available URL: From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Thu Dec 12 15:52:52 2019 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 09:52:52 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Wise words from Steven Salaita Message-ID: *- CounterPunch.org - https://www.counterpunch.org -*Renouncing Israel on PrinciplePosted By Steven Salaita On December 12, 2019 @ 1:58 am In articles 2015,Leading Article | Comments Disabled Photograph Source: Brian Naughton ? CC BY 2.0 When anti-Zionists discuss the Middle East, the topic of Israel?s existence rarely arises. It?s almost exclusively a pro-Israel talking point. We?re focused on national liberation, on surviving repression, on strategies of resistance, on recovering subjugated histories, on the complex (and sometimes touchy) relationships among an Indigenous population disaggregated by decades of aggression. That a colonial state?or any state, really?possesses no ontological rights is an unspoken assumption. ?Do you recognize Israel?s right to exist?? pretends to honor the downtrodden, but it is an altogether different proposition, transforming sophisticated ideas of liberation into a crude test of political respectability. Prioritizing the state as worthy of relief, as something to which we automatically owe deference, subsumes life to the imperatives of capital. The fundamental goal of the question is to attribute a sinister position to dissidents. It accomplishes that goal even when the dissidents haven?t promoted destruction. Mere defense of Palestinian life is enough to evoke the settler?s existential fear. For people socialized into orthodoxy, Israel is synonymous with progress, technology, and production. Affirming its existence is an endorsement of the status quo; no matter how ludicrous as a moral premise, in capitalist spaces it is a perfectly sensible demand. There are plenty of reasons to eschew the demand. The first reason is practical: we don?t advocate for the destruction of human communities, but of ideologies conducive to racism and inequality. It?s both insidious and unethical to conflate Jewish people (of any national origin) with the existence of a violent, rapacious polity. That sort of conflation is a grave disservice to activists and intellectuals devoted to a better world?and to the communities for whom a better world is a necessity of survival. Nobody has ever asked me to affirm another nation-state?s existence, a demand I would likewise decline. Zionists constantly single out Israel for special treatment. Moreover, it is remarkably impudent for champions of a state founded on the destruction of Palestine and now in its eighth decade of ethnic cleansing to ask the victims of its malevolence for recognition. Even worse, recognition is only the tip of the demand. We?re also being asked to legitimize apartheid and ignore the routine commission of war crimes. The upshot is to validate Israel as a militarized object of Western imperialism?in other words, to affirm the existence of a deeply antihuman entity. Let?s consider the demand in context of North America, where it?s most frequently issued. Those of us operating in this geography haven?t the authority to abdicate nearly 80 (and arguably 100) percent of historical Palestine. It?s not any Westerner?s prerogative to relinquish Palestine under the pressure of a spuriously humanistic insistence by Zionists that their perfidy be excused because it will somehow make us more responsible citizens. I am happy, eager even, to affirm the right of Jewish people to live in peace and security, wherever that may be, a right all humans deserve in no particular order of worthiness. But I won?t ratify Israel?s bloody founding or its devotion to racial supremacy. Ultimately, when Zionists demand that you affirm Israel?s right to exist, what they really seek is affirmation of Palestinian nonexistence. Beyond these philosophical, political, and practical factors, there?s a worthy psychological reason to refuse the demand. Zionists are the bully in this supposed conflict and enjoy nearly universal support in centers of political and economic power. They have more funds, access to corporate media, and the backing of the US military. Palestinians, however, hold one form of power that doesn?t require money, platforms, or weaponry: the ability to withhold legitimacy from Israel. It is a small power, without a material apparatus, but it is power, nevertheless, one that only a fool or opportunist would relinquish. When an oppressor makes submission the basis of civic responsibility, insolence is the only dignified response. *This essay first appeared on Steven Salaita?s website: No Flags, No Slogans .* Article printed from CounterPunch.org: *https://www.counterpunch.org * URL to article: *https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/12/renouncing-israel-on-principle/ * Click here to print. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Thu Dec 12 19:16:14 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 13:16:14 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The U.S. Government Lied about the Afghanistan War, They Couldn't Have Done It Without Media Lapdogs Message-ID: <00a401d5b120$9ffd11d0$dff73570$@comcast.net> December 12, 2019 The U.S. Government Lied about the Afghanistan War, They Couldn't Have Done It Without Media Lapdogs by Ted Rall "In ten years or so, we'll leak the truth," the Dead Kennedys sang. "But by then it's only so much paper." But it might just score you a Pulitzer Prize. Award bait and bragging rights are no doubt the principal goals of The Washington Post's self-congratulatory data dump, "The Afghanistan Papers." As the headline implies, the 2000 pages that a court-ordered the Office of the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction to release to Jeff Bezos' newspaper paints a Robert McNamara-esque portrait of not-so-best-or-bright Bush and Obama Administration bozos privately admitting what they knew all along-that the U.S. invasion and occupation of Afghanistan was always an unwinnable, counterproductive mistake-at the same time they were telling the American people that victory in the post-9/11 "good war" was right around the corner. All we had to win was win Afghan hearts and minds. "The [I.G.] documents also contradict a long chorus of public statements from U.S. presidents, military commanders and diplomats who assured Americans year after year that they were making progress in Afghanistan and the war was worth fighting," the Post reported. "Several of those interviewed described explicit and sustained efforts by the U.S. government to deliberately mislead the public. They said it was common at military headquarters in Kabul-and at the White House-to distort statistics to make it appear the United States was winning the war when that was not the case." "The Afghanistan Papers" is a bright, shining lie by omission. Yes, our military and civilian leaders lied to us about Afghanistan. But they could never have spread their murderous BS-thousands of U.S. soldiers and tens of thousands of Afghans killed, trillions of dollars wasted-without media organizations like the Washington Post, which served as unquestioning government stenographers. Press outlets like the Post and New York Times weren't merely idiots used to disseminate pro-war propaganda. They actively censored people who knew we never should have gone into Afghanistan and tried to tell American voters the truth. People like me. I was among the tiny minority of journalists and commentators who opposed the Afghanistan war from the very beginning. Nine days after 9/11, I published the first of my cartoons pointing out that Al Qaeda was in Pakistan, not Afghanistan, so there was no moral or legal justification for invading. As the war dragged on I pointed out that the men and women in charge of the war didn't have a clue about Afghanistan or the Afghan people. According to "The Afghanistan Papers," those men and women knew they were screwing up, wouldn't admit their ignorance and refused to bring in experts. I went to Afghanistan to check things out for myself. It was obvious the U.S. didn't stand a chance there. "The principal goal of this adventure in imperialistic vengeance, it seems obvious, should be to install a friendly government in Kabul. But we're winning neither hearts nor minds among either the commoners or the leadership of the current regime apparent," I wrote from Afghanistan on December 11, 2001. "And so we've lost this war, not because they're good or we're not, but because of who we are. The American Empire can't spend the bodies or the time or the cash to fix this crazyass place, because in the final analysis, election-year W. was right-we're not nation builders.we ought to tally our dead, write up our losses, and count ourselves lucky to still be called a superpower." My piece, for The Village Voice, was titled "How We Lost Afghanistan." It was published eighteen years ago. But not in the Post. They didn't want to hear what lefties like me had to say. They still don't. Afghanistan was not a passing fancy for me. I wrote hundreds of essays and drew hundreds of cartoons urging an end to the madness. It was lonely. Even Democrats liked the Afghan war; they called it the right war while Iraq was the dumb one. I went back to the country, traveling independently as an unembedded reporter, several times. I wrote the first book about the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan, the only book about oil pipeline politics in that country, a book placing Afghanistan in the context of Central Asia, and yet another book comparing the state of Afghanistan when Obama said we were pulling out-another lie-with how it was at the start of the war. What was my reward for being right while everyone else was wrong? Hundreds of death threats. Getting fired by my client newspapers and magazines. It's hard to believe now but back in 2004 George W. Bush was popular and being compared to Winston Churchill; that was the year that the "liberal" New York Times and Washington Post stopped running my work. Major news outlets and book reviewers ignored my books. Editors refused to hire me. Producers wouldn't book me. Anyone opposed to the Afghanistan war was censored from U.S. corporate media. Not that Afghanistan was ignored. It was the subject of countless analysis pieces and opinion articles in American newspapers-all of it pro-war propaganda. There were thousands of television and radio stories about the Afghan war on radio and television. Corporate media repeatedly trotted out the same retired generals, former CIA officers, and random right-wing warmongers for quotes and analysis. Never, ever did they invite critics or opponents of U.S. interventionism in Afghanistan to share their thoughts with readers, listeners and viewers. Nothing has changed. Whenever there is a foreign policy "crisis," you will never read or hear or see someone completely opposed to U.S. involvement given a voice in the media. Certainly not in the Post. So, 18 years and tens of thousands of lives and trillions of dollars too late, it's nice to see the media finally shame these scumbags and their government handlers. But they ought to save a big portion of the blame for themselves. Join the debate on Facebook More articles by: Ted Rall Ted Rall, syndicated writer and the cartoonist for ANewDomain.net, is the author of the book " Snowden," the biography of the NSA whistleblower. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Thu Dec 12 19:19:56 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 13:19:56 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Money, Power and Turf: Winning the Middle East Media War at Any Cost Message-ID: <00b101d5b121$23fae520$6bf0af60$@comcast.net> December 12, 2019 Money, Power and Turf: Winning the Middle East Media War at Any Cost by Ramzy Baroud It is hardly surprising to see Middle Eastern countries at the bottom of the World Press Freedom Index, as the worst violators of freedom of the press. But equally alarming is the complete polarization of public opinion as a result of self-serving media and, bankrolled by rich Arab countries, whose only goal is to serve their specific, often sinister, agendas. One does not need to highlight of how state-controlled media in the Middle East lacks the minimal required degree of partiality, let alone integrity. Only a deluded person would argue that governments that kill, torture and imprison journalists, intellectuals and social media activists have an iota of respect for the freedom of the press and expression - in fact, of any kind of freedom at all. Of the 180 countries classified by Reporters Without Borders' annual report on press freedom, seven Middle Eastern countries are listed at the bottom 10% category of the world's worst violators. In 2018, Israel, which often prides itself on being "the only democracy in the Middle East", ranked 88th, a hardly shocking realization, considering its constant targeting, killing, wounding and arresting of Palestinian journalists. The Palestinian Authority achieved an even worse rank, at 137th place. It is telling that not a single Middle Eastern country has made it to the top 30% rank. In countries like Egypt, Libya, Syria, and Yemen, where independent monitoring of government behavior is almost entirely absent, hundreds of journalists simply disappear in the black hole of brutal prison systems - malnourished, medically neglected, and routinely tortured. In November, an independent panel of United Nations' experts resolved that the death in jail of democratically-elected President of Egypt Mohammed Morsi was a "state-sanctioned arbitrary killing". If this is the fate of an elected President, imagine the fate of ordinary journalists who dare criticize the Egyptian government for its systematic violence, corruption, and lack of transparency. However, we often place all of our focus on this sad state of affairs and neglect the bigger picture, the fact that honest, objective, and trust-worthy journalism in the Middle East is suffering a long, agonizing death. This is not only an outcome of government crackdowns on the media, but also of the well-financed propaganda empires that have recruited thousands of journalists in the region and beyond to fight an ugly, seemingly endless turf-war. However, it has not always been this way. When the United States invaded Iraq in 2003, a generation of capable and courageous Arab journalists rose from the ashes of that war. While Western journalists allowed themselves to be embedded among US soldiers, thus, entering Baghdad and other conquered Iraqi cities on the back of American tanks, Iraqi and Arab journalists were killed, imprisoned and tortured. Navigating the small margins of freedom available in their own countries, journalists in Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere responded to the plight of Iraqis, writing openly against the US, Western designs in Iraq and the entire region. In the following years, a new breed of Arab journalists took their places in the trenches as citizen-journalists. They challenged us all, narrating stories that were never told and writing about issues that state-sanctioned media would never dare touch. All of this culminated in the brave display of unabashed reporting that first accompanied the revolts and upheaval in the Arab world, known as the "Arab Spring". Whenever state media failed to report on the bloody crackdowns by government security forces, citizen-journalists stepped in, filling the gap and exposing the atrocities with the hope of holding the culprits to account. But that brief honeymoon quickly disintegrated, when counter-revolutionary forces managed to regain the initiative. Over the last eight years, Arab governments gradually understood the significance of the press and especially social media in mobilizing the public. The massive crackdown on these journalists has not ceased since. Thousands of journalists were imprisoned and tortured. Many disappeared, leaving no trails to inform their families on whether they are dead or alive. The ongoing onslaught was quickly joined by another form of media warfare. All state-run media throughout the Arab world were stuffed with loyalists. All opposition-run media were either shut down or faced numerous restrictions that made it nearly impossible for them to play a meaningful role in challenging their countries' official discourses. As Gulf Arab countries descended into their own internal conflict, large sums of money were dedicated to expanding their political outreach and influence. Thousands of foreign journalists, with no cultural or political connection to the Middle East, were shipped in, to replace their Arab colleagues, and to participate, willingly or otherwise, in the dirty propaganda campaigns championed by one rich Arab countries or another. The boundaries of that war extended to the rest of the world where newspapers were acquired, websites set, and TV news stations established, all with only one goal in mind - countering the propaganda of the enemy and imposing their own. Sadly, many journalists willingly allowed themselves to participate in this shameful display, betraying the basic standards of good journalism, in fact good moral judgement. Of course, there are those who refused to sell out despite the repercussions of their choice. The thousands of journalists who are currently held in Middle Eastern jails are testimony to the courage and bravery of our colleagues. But this is not the end of the story. Good journalism must not be allowed to die. We must fight back, in the name of Tareq Ayyoub who was killed by US forces in Iraq in 2003, and Yaser Murtaja who was killed by Israeli snipers in Gaza in 2018, and thousands like them, who are either dead or spending tortuous years in Arab or Israeli prisons. We cannot let fear control us or money compromise our values. Arab regimes have their own agenda - the need to survive at any cost. The Israeli government has its own agenda - silencing any Palestinian call for freedom. Rich Gulf States have their own agendas - defending their political, economic and strategic interests. But who will stand for the agenda of the people, for their freedom, human rights, and ultimate liberation? If it is not us, then who? Join the debate on Facebook More articles by: Ramzy Baroud Ramzy Baroud is a journalist, author and editor of Palestine Chronicle. His latest book is The Last Earth: A Palestinian Story (Pluto Press, London, 2018). He earned a Ph.D. in Palestine Studies from the University of Exeter and is a Non-Resident Scholar at Orfalea Center for Global and International Studies, UCSB. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbn at forestfield.org Fri Dec 13 16:04:28 2019 From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 10:04:28 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Notes Message-ID: <441e1803-abbe-af39-d54c-07b6ba596f8e@forestfield.org> These notes are a few things we're not being told to pay attention to while the Democrats ignore the needs of the people with their impeachment proceedings. There's double-digit hours of coverage for impeachment talk but no time for discussing US-led wars, trillions spent on US-led wars, lives lost or irrevocably changed because of US-led wars, Medicare for All, a national jobs program, living-wage jobs, laying potable water pipes to every home, cutting the military (I refuse to call it "defense") budget by 50% (at least) and ending homelessness, handing out tax-free money to every citizen, and more. War and lies: Afghanistan US presidents Obama, G.W. Bush, and Trump have lied repeatedly. This report gets no TV coverage (that might make one want to put tough questions to former VP Biden) but it's run now during the convenient distraction of the Democrats impeachment proceedings. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/afghanistan-war-confidential-documents/ -- Craig Whitlock on " At war with the truth: U.S. officials constantly said they were making progress. They were not, and they knew it, an exclusive Post investigation found." > The documents were generated by a federal project examining the root > failures of the longest armed conflict in U.S. history. They include > more than 2,000 pages of previously unpublished notes of interviews with > people who played a direct role in the war, from generals and diplomats > to aid workers and Afghan officials. [...] > In the interviews, more than 400 insiders offered unrestrained criticism > of what went wrong in Afghanistan and how the United States became mired > in nearly two decades of warfare. > > With a bluntness rarely expressed in public, the interviews lay bare > pent-up complaints, frustrations and confessions, along with > second-guessing and backbiting. > > ?We were devoid of a fundamental understanding of Afghanistan ? we > didn?t know what we were doing,? Douglas Lute, a three-star Army general > who served as the White House?s Afghan war czar during the Bush and > Obama administrations, told government interviewers in 2015. He added: > ?What are we trying to do here? We didn?t have the foggiest notion of > what we were undertaking.? > > ?If the American people knew the magnitude of this dysfunction .?.?. > 2,400 lives lost,? Lute added, blaming the deaths of U.S. military > personnel on bureaucratic breakdowns among Congress, the Pentagon and > the State Department. ?Who will say this was in vain?? > > Since 2001, more than 775,000 U.S. troops have deployed to Afghanistan, > many repeatedly. Of those, 2,300 died there and 20,589 were wounded in > action, according to Defense Department figures. > > The interviews, through an extensive array of voices, bring into sharp > relief the core failings of the war that persist to this day. They > underscore how three presidents ? George W. Bush, Barack Obama and > Donald Trump ? and their military commanders have been unable to deliver > on their promises to prevail in Afghanistan. > > With most speaking on the assumption that their remarks would not become > public, U.S. officials acknowledged that their warfighting strategies > were fatally flawed and that Washington wasted enormous sums of money > trying to remake Afghanistan into a modern nation. [...] > The Lessons Learned interviews also reveal how U.S. military commanders > struggled to articulate who they were fighting, let alone why. > > Was al-Qaeda the enemy, or the Taliban? Was Pakistan a friend or an > adversary? What about the Islamic State and the bewildering array of > foreign jihadists, let alone the warlords on the CIA?s payroll? > According to the documents, the U.S. government never settled on an > answer. > > As a result, in the field, U.S. troops often couldn?t tell friend from > foe. > > ?They thought I was going to come to them with a map to show them where > the good guys and bad guys live,? an unnamed former adviser to an Army > Special Forces team told government interviewers in 2017. ?It took > several conversations for them to understand that I did not have that > information in my hands. At first, they just kept asking: ?But who are > the bad guys, where are they???? > > The view wasn?t any clearer from the Pentagon. > > ?I have no visibility into who the bad guys are,? Rumsfeld complained in > a Sept. 8, 2003, snowflake. ?We are woefully deficient in human > intelligence.? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGDz_C13GIw -- Jimmy Dore's coverage of this Washington Post article includes a summary at the end: > Jimmy Dore: And you know what's hilarious? Barack Obama used to say this > was the smart war. This was the smart war. [...] He used to say they > have a foreign policy of strong and dumb, we want to have strong and > smart. And the Iraq war was the dumb war, Afghan [war] was the smart > war[1]. That was the smart war: the one where we go "we have no idea what > we're doing", "we have no idea who the enemy is", "we don't know where > the enemy is". But keep sending soldiers there to get killed, right? > Keep sending soldiers there to get maimed. Wow. And so now you know why > they have to smear Tulsi when she asks a question about the war, know > you know why they have to smear her. I'm always suspicious why you're > not allowed to ask questions about anything, even stupid questions. If > it's stupid, who cares then? So whenever someone tries to shut you down > for asking a question there's always something there. And that's what > they're doing to Tulsi. They're smearing her like crazy because she's on > to something and they can't have people questioning our wars because > they know if we did we'd find out all this stuff and the jig would be up > and we wouldn't be spending a trillion dollars on our defense budget > every year and some of those people would be out of jobs. Imagine how > powerful that industry is: they just added $80 billion to all of those > defense contractors bank accounts. Can you imagine having an industry > that generates a billion dollars? $80 billion. [...] They added that on > to the top of the Pentagon budget. I'm just trying to help people wrap > [their mind] around that number and how much money they're throwing at > the military and this is what they're trying to do with it. [...] Joe > Biden tries to pretend that Bernie's the guy who's wasting our money? > This [article shows] what Joe Biden did. [1] Obama ran on positioning himself as a peace candidate regarding the war in Iraq calling that war "a dumb war; a rash war; a war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics". But the war in Afghanistan he said we must continue: > We?ve got to get the job done [in Afghanistan]. And that requires us to > have enough troops so that we?re not just air-raiding villages and > killing civilians, which is causing enormous pressure over there. There's a related article about this in https://nwdailymarker.com/2009/07/afghanistan-its-your-dumb-war-now-president-obama/ . Related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPt_Gzyh4Dg -- RT's report on "Trump's $738bn military budget: What does it pay for?" More war based on lies: Syria Dan Cohen on "Why was the Syria chemical report redacted" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEwsK40baaI Caitlin Johnstone on "Journalist: Newsweek Suppressed OPCW Scandal And Threatened Me With Legal Action" https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/journalist-newsweek-suppressed-opcw-scandal-and-threatened-me-with-legal-action-7f85f490e610?source=---------3------------------ > A Newsweek journalist has resigned after the publication reportedly > suppressed his story about the ever-growing OPCW scandal, the revelation > of immensely significant plot holes in the establishment Syria narrative > that you can update yourself on by watching this short seven-minute > video or this more detailed video here. > > ?Yesterday I resigned from Newsweek after my attempts to publish > newsworthy revelations about the leaked OPCW letter were refused for no > valid reason,? journalist Tareq Haddad reported today via Twitter. > > ?I have collected evidence of how they suppressed the story in addition > to evidence from another case where info inconvenient to US government > was removed, though it was factually correct,? Haddad said. ?I plan on > publishing these details in full shortly. However, after asking my > editors for comment, as is journalistic practice, I received an email > reminding me of confidentiality clauses in my contract. I.e. I was > threatened with legal action.? > > Haddad added that he is now seeking legal advice and looking into the > possibility of whistleblower protections for himself, and said at the > very least he will publish the information he has while omitting > anything that could subject him to legal retaliation from his former > employer. > > ?I could have kept silent and kept my job, but I would not have been > able to continue with a clean conscience,? Haddad said. ?I will have > some instability now but the truth is more important.? > > This is the first direct insider report we?re getting on the mass > media?s conspiracy of silence on the OPCW scandal that I wrote about > just the other day. In how many other newsrooms is this exact same sort > of suppression happening, including threats of legal action, to > journalists who don?t have the courage or ability to leave and speak > out? There is no logical reason to assume that Haddad is the only one > encountering such roadblocks from mass media editors; he?s just the only > one going public about it. > > Newsweek has long been a reliable guard dog and attack dog for the > US-centralized empire, with examples of stories that its editors did > permit to go to print including an article by an actual, current > military intelligence officer explaining why US prosecution of Julian > Assange is a good thing, fawning puff pieces on the White Helmets, and > despicable smear jobs on Tulsi Gabbard. The outlet will occasionally > print oppositional-looking articles like this one by Ian Wilkie > questioning the establishment Syria narrative, but not without > immediately turning around and publishing an attack on Wilkie?s piece by > Eliot Higgins, a former Atlantic Council Senior Fellow who is the > cofounder of the NED-funded imperial narrative management firm > Bellingcat. Newsweek also recently published an article attacking Tucker > Carlson for publicizing the OPCW scandal, basing its criticisms on a > bogus Bellingcat article I debunked shortly after its publication. Labor: "Great Employment Numbers: 44% of Fully Employed Make $18,000 a Year or Less" -- The Real News https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctg_PxNCawI Let's not forget that under slavery we had full employment. Perhaps employment percentages don't tell the story well or get to what we really need. -J From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Fri Dec 13 19:18:12 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 13:18:12 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] British Elections: Message-ID: <00aa01d5b1ea$10eed990$32cc8cb0$@comcast.net> Friday, December 13, 2019 British Elections: Get Brexit done! by Michael Roberts That was the campaign slogan of the incumbent Conservative government under PM Boris Johnson. And it was the message that won over a sufficient number of those Labour voters who had voted to leave the EU in 2016 to back the Conservatives. One-third of Labour voters in the 2017 election wanted to leave the EU, mainly in the midlands and north of England, and in the small towns and communities that have few immigrants. They have accepted the claim that their poorer living conditions and public services were due to the EU, immigration and the 'elite' of the London and the south. https://thenextrecession.files.wordpress.com/2019/12/sterling-rises.png?w=45 0&h=321 Britain is the most divided in Europe geographically. The election confirmed this 'geography of discontent', where rates of mortality vary more within Britain than in the majority of developed nations. The disposable income divide is larger than any comparable country and has increased over the past 10 years. The productivity divide is also larger than any comparable country. The 'leave' view was stronger among those who are old enough to imagine the 'good old days' of English 'supremacy' when 'we were in control' before joining the EU in the 1970s. Once in the EU, we had the volatile 1970s and the crushing of manufacturing and industrial communities in the 1980s. The flood of Eastern European immigrants (actually mainly to the large cities) in the 2000s was the last straw. In the 'remain capital' of England, London, Labour's vote held up as the 'remain' party, the Liberal Democrats, were squeezed down. The LDs did badly but still had a higher share of the vote (11%) than in 2017. The Conservative share of the vote rose only slightly from 2017 (42.3% to 43.6%), but Labour's slumped from 40% in 2017 to 32%. So the opinion polls and the exit polls were very accurate. Indeed, the overall turnout was down from 69% in 2017 to 67%, particularly in the Brexit areas. Once again, the 'no vote party' was the largest. This was clearly a Brexit election. The Labour party had the most radical left-wing programme since 1945. The social and economic manifesto of the left Labour leadership was actually quite popular. Labour's campaign was excellent and the activist turnout to canvass and get the vote in was terrific. But in the end it made little difference. Brexit still dominated and the Labour vote was squeezed. Not every voter wanted to 'get Brexit done', but clearly sufficient of the 2016 'leave' voters had enough of delay and procrastination by former PM May and parliament and wanted the issue dealt with. Usually, elections are won on what the state of the economy is. This election was generally different. But even so, the measure of 'economic well-being' index (based on a mix of the change in real disposable income and unemployment rate) suggested an improvement since former PM May lost her majority in 2017. The economy at the level of investment and output may have been stagnating, but the average UK household was feeling slightly better off since 2017, with full employment and slight improvement in real incomes. That helped the Johnson government. https://thenextrecession.files.wordpress.com/2019/12/economic-index.png?w=45 0&h=293 What now? The government under Johnson will now move quickly to pass through parliament the legislation necessary for the UK to leave the EU by end of January at the latest. And then the more tortuous process of signing up a trade deal with the EU will begin. That is supposed to be completed by June 2020, unless the UK asks for an extension. Johnson will try to avoid that and he can now make all kinds of concessions to the EU in order to get a deal done without the fear of a backlash from 'no deal' Brexiters in his party, as he has a big enough majority to see them off. With the Brexit issue likely to be out of the way by this time next year, the British economy, which has been on its knees (stagnation of GDP and investment) is likely to have a short pick-up. With 'uncertainty' over, foreign investment may return, house prices recover and with the labour market tightening, wages may even pick up. The Johnson government may even steal some of Labour's proposals and boost public spending for a short period. Longer term, the future of the British economy is dismal. All studies show that outside the EU, the British economy will grow slower in real terms than it would have done if it had remained an EU member. The degree of relative loss is estimated at between 4-10% of GDP over the next ten years, depending on the terms of the trade and labour deal with the EU. Also, it is still unclear how much damage there will be to the financial services sector in the City of London. But this is all relative; implying just 0.4-1% off the projected annual growth rate. So, for example, if the UK grew at 2% a year in the EU, it would now grow at about 1.5% a year. And then there is the joker in the pack: the global economy. The major capitalist economies are growing at the slowest rate since the Great Recession. There may be a temporary truce in the ongoing trade war between the US and China, but it will break out again. And corporate profitability in the US, Europe and Japan is sliding, alongside rising corporate debt. The risk of a new world economic recession is at its highest since 2008. If a new global slump comes, then the mood of the British electorate may change sharply; and the Johnson government's Brexit bubble will then be pricked. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 36440 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 69937 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Dec 13 20:59:05 2019 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 14:59:05 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] The Afghanistan Scam | From Tulsi Gabbard for President - Official Website Message-ID: https://www.tulsi2020.com/updates/2019-12-13-afghanistan-scam?sourceid=1014165&ms=em191214&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=em191214&emci=f0abec8b-cc1d-ea11-a601-2818784d6d68&emdi=bfd0a0fe-cd1d-ea11-a601-2818784d6d68&ceid=181852 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbn at forestfield.org Sat Dec 14 23:55:39 2019 From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 17:55:39 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] News from Neptune #443 notes Message-ID: <7d18f43d-3c72-4e0f-ec75-9e33481d38fa@forestfield.org> News from Neptune #443 A "My Back Pages" edition Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nexp4s5ZHR8 A list of links to references made on the show. John Maynard Keynes "The Economic Consequences of Peace" ISBN-10: 1298792835 ISBN-13: 978-1298792839 Possibly complete text: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23749238_The_Economic_Consequences_Of_Peace_In_The_Middle_East Bob Dylan's "My Back Pages" Audio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtDbbO2OLHY Lyrics: https://www.metrolyrics.com/my-back-pages-lyrics-bob-dylan.html The Byrds' "My Back Pages" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h80l4XIPJC4 Boris Johnson's win https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK8wdjG_gFY -- Outcome coverage summary (RT) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2K_HJ-Jc1s -- CrossTalk (RT) discussion Michael Roberts' blog "The Next Recession" https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/ Michael Roberts on "Get Brexit Done!" https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2019/12/13/get-brexit-done/ What Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn say about secret US/UK talks about the NHS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fTffUvBFZs -- UK Prime Minister and leader of the Conservative Party Boris Johnson said: > Boris Johnson: We are absolutely resolved that there will be no sale of > the NHS, no privatisation, the NHS is not on the table in any way. > > Questioner: Not drug patents? > > Boris Johnson: In no way, the NHS is in no way on the table, in no > aspect whatever and this, as I say, is continually brought up by the > Labour Party as a diversionary tactic from the difficulties they are > encountering particularly over the problem about leadership on > anti-Semitism and then the great vacuity about their policy on Brexit, > nobody knows what side Mr. Corbyn would come down on, in fact he said > he's going to be neutral so you're left wondering what the point is of > his doing this deal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wTwu0zl1XQ -- Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn said: > Jeremy Corbyn: If you watch the first TV debate between me and Boris > Johnson you'll have seen me hold up these censored, blacked-out reports > [Corbyn held up a hardcopy of censored blacked-out reports]. Pages and > pages of censored blacked-out reports of secret US and UK talks about > breaking open our NHS to US corporations and thus driving up the cost > of medicines. What I have here [Corbyn unzipped a black case holding a > hardcopy of a document which he removed from the case and then held up] > is something I can reveal to you. 451 pages of unredacted documents and > information, all of it here [people dressed in scrubs handed out copies > of a document to people assembled in the hall where Corbyn was > speaking]. His [Boris Johnson's] government released this [presumably > was holding the censored document], we [the Labour Party] have since > released this [presumably holding the uncensored document] which is a > very different version of events. Perhaps he would like to explain why > these documents confirm the US is demanding the NHS is on the table in > the trade talks. These uncensored documents leave Boris Johnson's > denials in absolute tatters. Voters need to ask themselves some very > serious questions. Is the NHS safe in Boris Johnson's hands? Taft?Hartley Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft-Hartley National Labor Relations Act of 1935 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act_of_1935 Selling Free Enterprise: The Business Assault on Labor and Liberalism, 1945-60 by Elizabeth A. Fones-Wolf ISBN-10: 0252064399 ISBN-13: 978-0252064395 Palmer Raids https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Raids Thomas Edsall on "Trump Has a Gift for Tearing Us Apart" https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/11/opinion/trump-immigration.html Steven H. Woolf, MD & Heidi Schoomaker on "Life Expectancy and Mortality Rates in the United States, 1959-2017" https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2756187 Peter Strzok & Lisa Page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Strzok Carter Page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Page Related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FOzRVoPE94 -- Jimmy Dore on the Inspector General report indicating how the FBI lied to the FISA court about Carter Page working for the CIA and how Page now has a good reason to sue the FBI and win. Jeffrey St. Clair on "Roaming Charges: That?s Neoliberalism for You" https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/13/roaming-charges-thats-neoliberalism-for-you/ Sergei and Yulia Skripal poisoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_Skripal Pres. Trump's recent executive order https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-sign-executive-order-targeting-college-anti-semitism-israel-boycotts-n1099601 Steven Salaita on "Renouncing Israel on Principle" https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/12/renouncing-israel-on-principle/ Jim Dey https://www.news-gazette.com/users/profile/jim%20dey/ J.B. Nicholson notes https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015481.html https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051688.html -J From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Sun Dec 15 01:05:18 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 19:05:18 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] duplicity of the corporate Democrats / Nancy Pelosi Message-ID: <008201d5b2e3$b83fb1c0$28bf1540$@comcast.net> Check out this 20 minute segment from the Jimmy Dore Show. It really gets to the point of the duplicity of the corporate Democrats / Nancy Pelosi et al, in regards to the recent capitulation to Trump ( Gee, I thought he was a criminal and a " Putin Puppet " ) on the recent passage of the " defense " ( WAR ) budget https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsfH77HgPo0 &t=288s David J. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sun Dec 15 17:32:30 2019 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 09:32:30 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #443 notes In-Reply-To: <7d18f43d-3c72-4e0f-ec75-9e33481d38fa@forestfield.org> References: <7d18f43d-3c72-4e0f-ec75-9e33481d38fa@forestfield.org> Message-ID: Again, I always enjoy the discussion taking place on NFN. Nonetheless I find the continuing conversation related to the Trump impeachment and the assumption it is being done by the Democrats because they fear his ?anti-war stance,? due to what he said as a candidate,? boring. I?m convinced the Dems know very well they won?t remove Trump from office, their goal being, anything to defeat him or any Republican in the next election as worth doing, and using it to further vilify Russia, and paint a portrait of Ukraine as a worthy ally makes it worth their while, in spite of the lack of evidence presented, obvious to those watching closely. Impeachment related to the issue they chose to use is nonsense compared to the many crimes committed by both Party Administrations over the years, thus making this impeachment almost a joke, if it didn?t involve the attention of so many Americans, keeping them ignorant of important issues needing to be addressed. While I agree with David?s analysis of local, and Jewish organizations failure to address a major issue, that of Israeli barbarism, while focusing only on concerns related to domestic issues of immigration or racism superficially, rather than applying a deeper analysis, examining cause and effect, then offering solutions, to be of little consequence. David himself admits is ?trivial.? It?s trivial in that it negates the good works these groups do and therefore doesn?t really get the point across to most people viewing issues superficially thus placing them on the defense. I?m not Jewish so perhaps unlike David I don?t take it personally or apply greater expectations to those who aren?t really interested in what happens to those not in my nation, ignoring what my nation does to others elsewhere in the world. I?m referring to the 47 million Muslims killed since 9/11, in our wars against terrorism, of which David refers often. However, in relation to this is a most important point brought up by David, is that anti-semitism is more likely in the US now, as a result of the barbarism of Israel, and the Trump Administration?s recent policy initiatives related to Israel and ?anti-semitism? in the US. Anti-semitism is rising in Europe, specifically Germany and Ukraine, primarily due to economics, and imperialism, with the US directly responsible for promoting Nazi?s to power in Ukraine in 2014. Very important information related is the little noticed new ?Nafta/trade deal with Canada.? One might refer to it as the new TPP, the original having failed under the Obama Administration, though Trump gets credit for abandoning, but as usual anything defeated that the capitalist elites want imposed, comes back rebranded. It matters not which Party is in power. > On Dec 14, 2019, at 15:55, J.B. Nicholson via Peace wrote: > > News from Neptune #443 > A "My Back Pages" edition > Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nexp4s5ZHR8 > > A list of links to references made on the show. > > John Maynard Keynes "The Economic Consequences of Peace" > ISBN-10: 1298792835 > ISBN-13: 978-1298792839 > Possibly complete text: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23749238_The_Economic_Consequences_Of_Peace_In_The_Middle_East > > Bob Dylan's "My Back Pages" > Audio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtDbbO2OLHY > Lyrics: https://www.metrolyrics.com/my-back-pages-lyrics-bob-dylan.html > > The Byrds' "My Back Pages" > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h80l4XIPJC4 > > > > > Boris Johnson's win > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK8wdjG_gFY -- Outcome coverage summary (RT) > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2K_HJ-Jc1s -- CrossTalk (RT) discussion > > > > > Michael Roberts' blog "The Next Recession" > https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/ > > Michael Roberts on "Get Brexit Done!" > https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2019/12/13/get-brexit-done/ > > What Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn say about secret US/UK talks about the NHS. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fTffUvBFZs -- UK Prime Minister and leader of the Conservative Party Boris Johnson said: > >> Boris Johnson: We are absolutely resolved that there will be no sale of the NHS, no privatisation, the NHS is not on the table in any way. >> Questioner: Not drug patents? >> Boris Johnson: In no way, the NHS is in no way on the table, in no aspect whatever and this, as I say, is continually brought up by the Labour Party as a diversionary tactic from the difficulties they are encountering particularly over the problem about leadership on anti-Semitism and then the great vacuity about their policy on Brexit, nobody knows what side Mr. Corbyn would come down on, in fact he said he's going to be neutral so you're left wondering what the point is of his doing this deal. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wTwu0zl1XQ -- Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn said: > >> Jeremy Corbyn: If you watch the first TV debate between me and Boris Johnson you'll have seen me hold up these censored, blacked-out reports [Corbyn held up a hardcopy of censored blacked-out reports]. Pages and pages of censored blacked-out reports of secret US and UK talks about breaking open our NHS to US corporations and thus driving up the cost >> of medicines. What I have here [Corbyn unzipped a black case holding a hardcopy of a document which he removed from the case and then held up] is something I can reveal to you. 451 pages of unredacted documents and >> information, all of it here [people dressed in scrubs handed out copies >> of a document to people assembled in the hall where Corbyn was speaking]. His [Boris Johnson's] government released this [presumably >> was holding the censored document], we [the Labour Party] have since released this [presumably holding the uncensored document] which is a very different version of events. Perhaps he would like to explain why these documents confirm the US is demanding the NHS is on the table in the trade talks. These uncensored documents leave Boris Johnson's denials in absolute tatters. Voters need to ask themselves some very serious questions. Is the NHS safe in Boris Johnson's hands? > > > > > Taft?Hartley Act > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft-Hartley > > National Labor Relations Act of 1935 > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act_of_1935 > > Selling Free Enterprise: The Business Assault on Labor and Liberalism, 1945-60 by Elizabeth A. Fones-Wolf > ISBN-10: 0252064399 > ISBN-13: 978-0252064395 > > Palmer Raids > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Raids > > > > > Thomas Edsall on "Trump Has a Gift for Tearing Us Apart" > https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/11/opinion/trump-immigration.html > > Steven H. Woolf, MD & Heidi Schoomaker on "Life Expectancy and Mortality Rates in the United States, 1959-2017" > https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2756187 > > > > > Peter Strzok & Lisa Page > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Strzok > > Carter Page > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Page > Related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FOzRVoPE94 -- Jimmy Dore on the Inspector General report indicating how the FBI lied to the FISA court about Carter Page working for the CIA and how Page now has a good reason to sue the FBI and win. > > Jeffrey St. Clair on "Roaming Charges: That?s Neoliberalism for You" > https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/13/roaming-charges-thats-neoliberalism-for-you/ > > Sergei and Yulia Skripal poisoning > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_Skripal > > > > > Pres. Trump's recent executive order > https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-sign-executive-order-targeting-college-anti-semitism-israel-boycotts-n1099601 > > Steven Salaita on "Renouncing Israel on Principle" > https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/12/renouncing-israel-on-principle/ > > Jim Dey > https://www.news-gazette.com/users/profile/jim%20dey/ > > > > > > > > > J.B. Nicholson notes > https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015481.html > https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051688.html > > -J > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace From carl at newsfromneptune.com Mon Dec 16 08:11:01 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 02:11:01 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #443 notes In-Reply-To: References: <7d18f43d-3c72-4e0f-ec75-9e33481d38fa@forestfield.org> Message-ID: <3F338DA5-1753-49F2-ACF3-B0805B592F5D@newsfromneptune.com> Thanks for your comments as always. You write, ?... I find the continuing conversation related to the Trump impeachment and the assumption it is being done by the Democrats because they fear his 'anti-war stance,' due to what he said as a candidate, boring." Boring because it?s so obviously true? Of course it is: . But I disagree with your general account. I think the Democrats have concluded that they have little chance of denying Trump a second term in the normal course of events, given their possible candidates. (The one who has the best chance is Bernie, and for the Dem organization, he?s worse than Trump.) Therefore they have to get him out another way - impeachment, 25th Amendment, even coup (see Adm. McRaven in the NYT!). Not to do so is to cripple the Bush-Obama fp (and long before) of using war & war provocations to retard the economic integration of Eurasia. And you know how seriously the p.e. (?Deep State,? if you wish) takes that. Regards, CGE > On Dec 15, 2019, at 11:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Again, I always enjoy the discussion taking place on NFN. Nonetheless I find the continuing conversation related to the Trump impeachment and the assumption it is being done by the Democrats because they fear his ?anti-war stance,? due to what he said as a candidate,? boring. > > I?m convinced the Dems know very well they won?t remove Trump from office, their goal being, anything to defeat him or any Republican in the next election as worth doing, and using it to further vilify Russia, and paint a portrait of Ukraine as a worthy ally makes it worth their while, in spite of the lack of evidence presented, obvious to those watching closely. > > Impeachment related to the issue they chose to use is nonsense compared to the many crimes committed by both Party Administrations over the years, thus making this impeachment almost a joke, if it didn?t involve the attention of so many Americans, keeping them ignorant of important issues needing to be addressed. > > While I agree with David?s analysis of local, and Jewish organizations failure to address a major issue, that of Israeli barbarism, while focusing only on concerns related to domestic issues of immigration or racism superficially, rather than applying a deeper analysis, examining cause and effect, then offering solutions, to be of little consequence. David himself admits is ?trivial.? It?s trivial in that it negates the good works these groups do and therefore doesn?t really get the point across to most people viewing issues superficially thus placing them on the defense. I?m not Jewish so perhaps unlike David I don?t take it personally or apply greater expectations to those who aren?t really interested in what happens to those not in my nation, ignoring what my nation does to others elsewhere in the world. I?m referring to the 47 million Muslims killed since 9/11, in our wars against terrorism, of which David refers often. However, in relation to this is a most important point brought up by David, is that anti-semitism is more likely in the US now, as a result of the barbarism of Israel, and the Trump Administration?s recent policy initiatives related to Israel and ?anti-semitism? in the US. > > Anti-semitism is rising in Europe, specifically Germany and Ukraine, primarily due to economics, and imperialism, with the US directly responsible for promoting Nazi?s to power in Ukraine in 2014. > > Very important information related is the little noticed new ?Nafta/trade deal with Canada.? One might refer to it as the new TPP, the original having failed under the Obama Administration, though Trump gets credit for abandoning, but as usual anything defeated that the capitalist elites want imposed, comes back rebranded. It matters not which Party is in power. > > > >> On Dec 14, 2019, at 15:55, J.B. Nicholson via Peace wrote: >> >> News from Neptune #443 >> A "My Back Pages" edition >> Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nexp4s5ZHR8 >> >> A list of links to references made on the show. >> >> John Maynard Keynes "The Economic Consequences of Peace" >> ISBN-10: 1298792835 >> ISBN-13: 978-1298792839 >> Possibly complete text: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23749238_The_Economic_Consequences_Of_Peace_In_The_Middle_East >> >> Bob Dylan's "My Back Pages" >> Audio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtDbbO2OLHY >> Lyrics: https://www.metrolyrics.com/my-back-pages-lyrics-bob-dylan.html >> >> The Byrds' "My Back Pages" >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h80l4XIPJC4 >> >> >> >> >> Boris Johnson's win >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK8wdjG_gFY -- Outcome coverage summary (RT) >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2K_HJ-Jc1s -- CrossTalk (RT) discussion >> >> >> >> >> Michael Roberts' blog "The Next Recession" >> https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/ >> >> Michael Roberts on "Get Brexit Done!" >> https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2019/12/13/get-brexit-done/ >> >> What Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn say about secret US/UK talks about the NHS. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fTffUvBFZs -- UK Prime Minister and leader of the Conservative Party Boris Johnson said: >> >>> Boris Johnson: We are absolutely resolved that there will be no sale of the NHS, no privatisation, the NHS is not on the table in any way. >>> Questioner: Not drug patents? >>> Boris Johnson: In no way, the NHS is in no way on the table, in no aspect whatever and this, as I say, is continually brought up by the Labour Party as a diversionary tactic from the difficulties they are encountering particularly over the problem about leadership on anti-Semitism and then the great vacuity about their policy on Brexit, nobody knows what side Mr. Corbyn would come down on, in fact he said he's going to be neutral so you're left wondering what the point is of his doing this deal. >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wTwu0zl1XQ -- Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn said: >> >>> Jeremy Corbyn: If you watch the first TV debate between me and Boris Johnson you'll have seen me hold up these censored, blacked-out reports [Corbyn held up a hardcopy of censored blacked-out reports]. Pages and pages of censored blacked-out reports of secret US and UK talks about breaking open our NHS to US corporations and thus driving up the cost >>> of medicines. What I have here [Corbyn unzipped a black case holding a hardcopy of a document which he removed from the case and then held up] is something I can reveal to you. 451 pages of unredacted documents and >>> information, all of it here [people dressed in scrubs handed out copies >>> of a document to people assembled in the hall where Corbyn was speaking]. His [Boris Johnson's] government released this [presumably >>> was holding the censored document], we [the Labour Party] have since released this [presumably holding the uncensored document] which is a very different version of events. Perhaps he would like to explain why these documents confirm the US is demanding the NHS is on the table in the trade talks. These uncensored documents leave Boris Johnson's denials in absolute tatters. Voters need to ask themselves some very serious questions. Is the NHS safe in Boris Johnson's hands? >> >> >> >> >> Taft?Hartley Act >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft-Hartley >> >> National Labor Relations Act of 1935 >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act_of_1935 >> >> Selling Free Enterprise: The Business Assault on Labor and Liberalism, 1945-60 by Elizabeth A. Fones-Wolf >> ISBN-10: 0252064399 >> ISBN-13: 978-0252064395 >> >> Palmer Raids >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Raids >> >> >> >> >> Thomas Edsall on "Trump Has a Gift for Tearing Us Apart" >> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/11/opinion/trump-immigration.html >> >> Steven H. Woolf, MD & Heidi Schoomaker on "Life Expectancy and Mortality Rates in the United States, 1959-2017" >> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2756187 >> >> >> >> >> Peter Strzok & Lisa Page >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Strzok >> >> Carter Page >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Page >> Related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FOzRVoPE94 -- Jimmy Dore on the Inspector General report indicating how the FBI lied to the FISA court about Carter Page working for the CIA and how Page now has a good reason to sue the FBI and win. >> >> Jeffrey St. Clair on "Roaming Charges: That?s Neoliberalism for You" >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/13/roaming-charges-thats-neoliberalism-for-you/ >> >> Sergei and Yulia Skripal poisoning >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_Skripal >> >> >> >> >> Pres. Trump's recent executive order >> https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-sign-executive-order-targeting-college-anti-semitism-israel-boycotts-n1099601 >> >> Steven Salaita on "Renouncing Israel on Principle" >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/12/renouncing-israel-on-principle/ >> >> Jim Dey >> https://www.news-gazette.com/users/profile/jim%20dey/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> J.B. Nicholson notes >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015481.html >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051688.html >> >> -J >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From carl at newsfromneptune.com Mon Dec 16 08:29:11 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 02:29:11 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #443 notes In-Reply-To: References: <7d18f43d-3c72-4e0f-ec75-9e33481d38fa@forestfield.org> Message-ID: <120191FD-A5BA-4CB1-AC99-5F1AE9E38AE1@newsfromneptune.com> Karen-- Thanks for your comments as always. You write, ?... I find the continuing conversation related to the Trump impeachment and the assumption it is being done by the Democrats because they fear his 'anti-war stance,' due to what he said as a candidate, boring.? Boring because it?s so obviously true? Of course it is: ?The Trump administration will announce as early as this week plans to withdraw around 4,000 troops from Afghanistan, U.S. media reported. Talks between the United States and the Taliban resumed a week ago as the parties sought a path to reduce violence or even reach a ceasefire. U.S. President Donald Trump insisted last month on the need for a ceasefire and made a surprise visit to Bagram on November 28 to celebrate Thanksgiving with troops and meet Afghan President Ashraf Ghani. Trump has previously indicated he wants to wind down U.S. military entanglements abroad where possible.? {english.cctv.com} But I disagree with your general account. I think the Democrats have concluded that they have little chance of denying Trump a second term in the normal course of events, given their possible candidates. (The one who has the best chance is Bernie, and for the Dem organization, he?s worse than Trump.) Therefore they have to get Trump out another way - impeachment, 25th Amendment, even coup (see Adm. McRaven in the NYT!). Not to do so is to cripple the Bush-Obama fp (and long before) of using war & war provocations to retard the economic integration of Eurasia. And you know how seriously the p.e. (?Deep State,? if you wish) takes that. Regards, CGE > On Dec 15, 2019, at 11:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: > > Again, I always enjoy the discussion taking place on NFN. Nonetheless I find the continuing conversation related to the Trump impeachment and the assumption it is being done by the Democrats because they fear his ?anti-war stance,? due to what he said as a candidate,? boring. > > I?m convinced the Dems know very well they won?t remove Trump from office, their goal being, anything to defeat him or any Republican in the next election as worth doing, and using it to further vilify Russia, and paint a portrait of Ukraine as a worthy ally makes it worth their while, in spite of the lack of evidence presented, obvious to those watching closely. > > Impeachment related to the issue they chose to use is nonsense compared to the many crimes committed by both Party Administrations over the years, thus making this impeachment almost a joke, if it didn?t involve the attention of so many Americans, keeping them ignorant of important issues needing to be addressed. > > While I agree with David?s analysis of local, and Jewish organizations failure to address a major issue, that of Israeli barbarism, while focusing only on concerns related to domestic issues of immigration or racism superficially, rather than applying a deeper analysis, examining cause and effect, then offering solutions, to be of little consequence. David himself admits is ?trivial.? It?s trivial in that it negates the good works these groups do and therefore doesn?t really get the point across to most people viewing issues superficially thus placing them on the defense. I?m not Jewish so perhaps unlike David I don?t take it personally or apply greater expectations to those who aren?t really interested in what happens to those not in my nation, ignoring what my nation does to others elsewhere in the world. I?m referring to the 47 million Muslims killed since 9/11, in our wars against terrorism, of which David refers often. However, in relation to this is a most important point brought up by David, is that anti-semitism is more likely in the US now, as a result of the barbarism of Israel, and the Trump Administration?s recent policy initiatives related to Israel and ?anti-semitism? in the US. > > Anti-semitism is rising in Europe, specifically Germany and Ukraine, primarily due to economics, and imperialism, with the US directly responsible for promoting Nazi?s to power in Ukraine in 2014. > > Very important information related is the little noticed new ?Nafta/trade deal with Canada.? One might refer to it as the new TPP, the original having failed under the Obama Administration, though Trump gets credit for abandoning, but as usual anything defeated that the capitalist elites want imposed, comes back rebranded. It matters not which Party is in power. > > > >> On Dec 14, 2019, at 15:55, J.B. Nicholson via Peace wrote: >> >> News from Neptune #443 >> A "My Back Pages" edition >> Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nexp4s5ZHR8 >> >> A list of links to references made on the show. >> >> John Maynard Keynes "The Economic Consequences of Peace" >> ISBN-10: 1298792835 >> ISBN-13: 978-1298792839 >> Possibly complete text: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23749238_The_Economic_Consequences_Of_Peace_In_The_Middle_East >> >> Bob Dylan's "My Back Pages" >> Audio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtDbbO2OLHY >> Lyrics: https://www.metrolyrics.com/my-back-pages-lyrics-bob-dylan.html >> >> The Byrds' "My Back Pages" >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h80l4XIPJC4 >> >> >> >> >> Boris Johnson's win >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK8wdjG_gFY -- Outcome coverage summary (RT) >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2K_HJ-Jc1s -- CrossTalk (RT) discussion >> >> >> >> >> Michael Roberts' blog "The Next Recession" >> https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/ >> >> Michael Roberts on "Get Brexit Done!" >> https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2019/12/13/get-brexit-done/ >> >> What Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn say about secret US/UK talks about the NHS. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fTffUvBFZs -- UK Prime Minister and leader of the Conservative Party Boris Johnson said: >> >>> Boris Johnson: We are absolutely resolved that there will be no sale of the NHS, no privatisation, the NHS is not on the table in any way. >>> Questioner: Not drug patents? >>> Boris Johnson: In no way, the NHS is in no way on the table, in no aspect whatever and this, as I say, is continually brought up by the Labour Party as a diversionary tactic from the difficulties they are encountering particularly over the problem about leadership on anti-Semitism and then the great vacuity about their policy on Brexit, nobody knows what side Mr. Corbyn would come down on, in fact he said he's going to be neutral so you're left wondering what the point is of his doing this deal. >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wTwu0zl1XQ -- Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn said: >> >>> Jeremy Corbyn: If you watch the first TV debate between me and Boris Johnson you'll have seen me hold up these censored, blacked-out reports [Corbyn held up a hardcopy of censored blacked-out reports]. Pages and pages of censored blacked-out reports of secret US and UK talks about breaking open our NHS to US corporations and thus driving up the cost >>> of medicines. What I have here [Corbyn unzipped a black case holding a hardcopy of a document which he removed from the case and then held up] is something I can reveal to you. 451 pages of unredacted documents and >>> information, all of it here [people dressed in scrubs handed out copies >>> of a document to people assembled in the hall where Corbyn was speaking]. His [Boris Johnson's] government released this [presumably >>> was holding the censored document], we [the Labour Party] have since released this [presumably holding the uncensored document] which is a very different version of events. Perhaps he would like to explain why these documents confirm the US is demanding the NHS is on the table in the trade talks. These uncensored documents leave Boris Johnson's denials in absolute tatters. Voters need to ask themselves some very serious questions. Is the NHS safe in Boris Johnson's hands? >> >> >> >> >> Taft?Hartley Act >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft-Hartley >> >> National Labor Relations Act of 1935 >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act_of_1935 >> >> Selling Free Enterprise: The Business Assault on Labor and Liberalism, 1945-60 by Elizabeth A. Fones-Wolf >> ISBN-10: 0252064399 >> ISBN-13: 978-0252064395 >> >> Palmer Raids >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Raids >> >> >> >> >> Thomas Edsall on "Trump Has a Gift for Tearing Us Apart" >> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/11/opinion/trump-immigration.html >> >> Steven H. Woolf, MD & Heidi Schoomaker on "Life Expectancy and Mortality Rates in the United States, 1959-2017" >> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2756187 >> >> >> >> >> Peter Strzok & Lisa Page >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Strzok >> >> Carter Page >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Page >> Related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FOzRVoPE94 -- Jimmy Dore on the Inspector General report indicating how the FBI lied to the FISA court about Carter Page working for the CIA and how Page now has a good reason to sue the FBI and win. >> >> Jeffrey St. Clair on "Roaming Charges: That?s Neoliberalism for You" >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/13/roaming-charges-thats-neoliberalism-for-you/ >> >> Sergei and Yulia Skripal poisoning >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_Skripal >> >> >> >> >> Pres. Trump's recent executive order >> https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-sign-executive-order-targeting-college-anti-semitism-israel-boycotts-n1099601 >> >> Steven Salaita on "Renouncing Israel on Principle" >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/12/renouncing-israel-on-principle/ >> >> Jim Dey >> https://www.news-gazette.com/users/profile/jim%20dey/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> J.B. Nicholson notes >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015481.html >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051688.html >> >> -J >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace From karenaram at hotmail.com Mon Dec 16 14:26:55 2019 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 06:26:55 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #443 notes In-Reply-To: <120191FD-A5BA-4CB1-AC99-5F1AE9E38AE1@newsfromneptune.com> References: <7d18f43d-3c72-4e0f-ec75-9e33481d38fa@forestfield.org> <120191FD-A5BA-4CB1-AC99-5F1AE9E38AE1@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: Carl? True, if Bernie, Trump will be defeated, but will the Dems. allow Bernie? Any other mainstream candidate will lose to Trump, but just about any Dem. will win over Pence. There is current speculation that something is taking place within the Republican Party in respect to Trump, given his announced resolution of the Trade Agreement with China bringing no elation, no recriminations from the Republicans. Trump being dethroned means a far more malleable a puppet, Pence, for the ruling elites with the Dems. winning the next election. Keeping Trump in power may bring about a win for Bernie, better than any other scenario related to elections. Though as I keep pointing out, ? will Bernie be allowed to accomplish the goals he has set out?? Doubtful, and as to foreign policy, it will continue as planned immediately after WW2, and with continued militarism resources will continue to be allocated to the military rather than social services. > On Dec 16, 2019, at 00:29, C. G. Estabrook wrote: > > Karen-- > > Thanks for your comments as always. You write, ?... I find the continuing conversation related to the Trump impeachment and the assumption it is being done by the Democrats because they fear his 'anti-war stance,' due to what he said as a candidate, boring.? > > Boring because it?s so obviously true? Of course it is: > > ?The Trump administration will announce as early as this week plans to withdraw around 4,000 troops from Afghanistan, U.S. media reported. Talks between the United States and the Taliban resumed a week ago as the parties sought a path to reduce violence or even reach a ceasefire. U.S. President Donald Trump insisted last month on the need for a ceasefire and made a surprise visit to Bagram on November 28 to celebrate Thanksgiving with troops and meet Afghan President Ashraf Ghani. Trump has previously indicated he wants to wind down U.S. military entanglements abroad where possible.? {english.cctv.com} > > But I disagree with your general account. I think the Democrats have concluded that they have little chance of denying Trump a second term in the normal course of events, given their possible candidates. (The one who has the best chance is Bernie, and for the Dem organization, he?s worse than Trump.) > > Therefore they have to get Trump out another way - impeachment, 25th Amendment, even coup (see Adm. McRaven in the NYT!). Not to do so is to cripple the Bush-Obama fp (and long before) of using war & war provocations to retard the economic integration of Eurasia. > > And you know how seriously the p.e. (?Deep State,? if you wish) takes that. Regards, CGE > > >> On Dec 15, 2019, at 11:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >> >> Again, I always enjoy the discussion taking place on NFN. Nonetheless I find the continuing conversation related to the Trump impeachment and the assumption it is being done by the Democrats because they fear his ?anti-war stance,? due to what he said as a candidate,? boring. >> >> I?m convinced the Dems know very well they won?t remove Trump from office, their goal being, anything to defeat him or any Republican in the next election as worth doing, and using it to further vilify Russia, and paint a portrait of Ukraine as a worthy ally makes it worth their while, in spite of the lack of evidence presented, obvious to those watching closely. >> >> Impeachment related to the issue they chose to use is nonsense compared to the many crimes committed by both Party Administrations over the years, thus making this impeachment almost a joke, if it didn?t involve the attention of so many Americans, keeping them ignorant of important issues needing to be addressed. >> >> While I agree with David?s analysis of local, and Jewish organizations failure to address a major issue, that of Israeli barbarism, while focusing only on concerns related to domestic issues of immigration or racism superficially, rather than applying a deeper analysis, examining cause and effect, then offering solutions, to be of little consequence. David himself admits is ?trivial.? It?s trivial in that it negates the good works these groups do and therefore doesn?t really get the point across to most people viewing issues superficially thus placing them on the defense. I?m not Jewish so perhaps unlike David I don?t take it personally or apply greater expectations to those who aren?t really interested in what happens to those not in my nation, ignoring what my nation does to others elsewhere in the world. I?m referring to the 47 million Muslims killed since 9/11, in our wars against terrorism, of which David refers often. However, in relation to this is a most important point brought up by David, is that anti-semitism is more likely in the US now, as a result of the barbarism of Israel, and the Trump Administration?s recent policy initiatives related to Israel and ?anti-semitism? in the US. >> >> Anti-semitism is rising in Europe, specifically Germany and Ukraine, primarily due to economics, and imperialism, with the US directly responsible for promoting Nazi?s to power in Ukraine in 2014. >> >> Very important information related is the little noticed new ?Nafta/trade deal with Canada.? One might refer to it as the new TPP, the original having failed under the Obama Administration, though Trump gets credit for abandoning, but as usual anything defeated that the capitalist elites want imposed, comes back rebranded. It matters not which Party is in power. >> >> >> >>> On Dec 14, 2019, at 15:55, J.B. Nicholson via Peace wrote: >>> >>> News from Neptune #443 >>> A "My Back Pages" edition >>> Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nexp4s5ZHR8 >>> >>> A list of links to references made on the show. >>> >>> John Maynard Keynes "The Economic Consequences of Peace" >>> ISBN-10: 1298792835 >>> ISBN-13: 978-1298792839 >>> Possibly complete text: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23749238_The_Economic_Consequences_Of_Peace_In_The_Middle_East >>> >>> Bob Dylan's "My Back Pages" >>> Audio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtDbbO2OLHY >>> Lyrics: https://www.metrolyrics.com/my-back-pages-lyrics-bob-dylan.html >>> >>> The Byrds' "My Back Pages" >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h80l4XIPJC4 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Boris Johnson's win >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK8wdjG_gFY -- Outcome coverage summary (RT) >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2K_HJ-Jc1s -- CrossTalk (RT) discussion >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael Roberts' blog "The Next Recession" >>> https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/ >>> >>> Michael Roberts on "Get Brexit Done!" >>> https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2019/12/13/get-brexit-done/ >>> >>> What Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn say about secret US/UK talks about the NHS. >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fTffUvBFZs -- UK Prime Minister and leader of the Conservative Party Boris Johnson said: >>> >>>> Boris Johnson: We are absolutely resolved that there will be no sale of the NHS, no privatisation, the NHS is not on the table in any way. >>>> Questioner: Not drug patents? >>>> Boris Johnson: In no way, the NHS is in no way on the table, in no aspect whatever and this, as I say, is continually brought up by the Labour Party as a diversionary tactic from the difficulties they are encountering particularly over the problem about leadership on anti-Semitism and then the great vacuity about their policy on Brexit, nobody knows what side Mr. Corbyn would come down on, in fact he said he's going to be neutral so you're left wondering what the point is of his doing this deal. >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wTwu0zl1XQ -- Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn said: >>> >>>> Jeremy Corbyn: If you watch the first TV debate between me and Boris Johnson you'll have seen me hold up these censored, blacked-out reports [Corbyn held up a hardcopy of censored blacked-out reports]. Pages and pages of censored blacked-out reports of secret US and UK talks about breaking open our NHS to US corporations and thus driving up the cost >>>> of medicines. What I have here [Corbyn unzipped a black case holding a hardcopy of a document which he removed from the case and then held up] is something I can reveal to you. 451 pages of unredacted documents and >>>> information, all of it here [people dressed in scrubs handed out copies >>>> of a document to people assembled in the hall where Corbyn was speaking]. His [Boris Johnson's] government released this [presumably >>>> was holding the censored document], we [the Labour Party] have since released this [presumably holding the uncensored document] which is a very different version of events. Perhaps he would like to explain why these documents confirm the US is demanding the NHS is on the table in the trade talks. These uncensored documents leave Boris Johnson's denials in absolute tatters. Voters need to ask themselves some very serious questions. Is the NHS safe in Boris Johnson's hands? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Taft?Hartley Act >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft-Hartley >>> >>> National Labor Relations Act of 1935 >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act_of_1935 >>> >>> Selling Free Enterprise: The Business Assault on Labor and Liberalism, 1945-60 by Elizabeth A. Fones-Wolf >>> ISBN-10: 0252064399 >>> ISBN-13: 978-0252064395 >>> >>> Palmer Raids >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Raids >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thomas Edsall on "Trump Has a Gift for Tearing Us Apart" >>> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/11/opinion/trump-immigration.html >>> >>> Steven H. Woolf, MD & Heidi Schoomaker on "Life Expectancy and Mortality Rates in the United States, 1959-2017" >>> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2756187 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Peter Strzok & Lisa Page >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Strzok >>> >>> Carter Page >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Page >>> Related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FOzRVoPE94 -- Jimmy Dore on the Inspector General report indicating how the FBI lied to the FISA court about Carter Page working for the CIA and how Page now has a good reason to sue the FBI and win. >>> >>> Jeffrey St. Clair on "Roaming Charges: That?s Neoliberalism for You" >>> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/13/roaming-charges-thats-neoliberalism-for-you/ >>> >>> Sergei and Yulia Skripal poisoning >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_Skripal >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Pres. Trump's recent executive order >>> https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-sign-executive-order-targeting-college-anti-semitism-israel-boycotts-n1099601 >>> >>> Steven Salaita on "Renouncing Israel on Principle" >>> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/12/renouncing-israel-on-principle/ >>> >>> Jim Dey >>> https://www.news-gazette.com/users/profile/jim%20dey/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> J.B. Nicholson notes >>> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015481.html >>> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051688.html >>> >>> -J >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Peace mailing list >>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Mon Dec 16 23:14:15 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 17:14:15 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Sometimes the guardians of empire make little mistakes. Message-ID: <007b01d5b466$89b40d40$9d1c27c0$@comcast.net> Hot Mic Moment Exposes Insane Sleaziness Of British Political/Media Class by Caitlin Johnstone There's a wildly under-appreciated clip of news footage from Thursday's general election in the UK that, now that everyone's had some time to emotionally process the emotional fallout from that depressing night, needs more attention. Labour MP and chronic left-puncher Jess Phillips appeared on Channel 4 to talk about how devastated she was about the news of exit polls showing her party's crushing defeat, except the cameras switched on before she was prepared and caught her in the middle of a joyful chuckle. It took several seconds and the overt reminders from the show's hosts to put on a "straight face" and act emotional before she could conceal her cheery mood as Corbyn's Labour leadership was trampled underfoot by odious empire lackey Boris Johnson. "Good evening Jess," said the program's host Krishnan Guru-Murthy. "How are you feeling as these results unfold?" Watching the stumbling improvisation that came next feels like walking into a room full of awkward silence when your supposed friends had just been saying mean things about you, or seeing your spouse conspicuously jump away from an attractive coworker when you drop by the office. Phillips, still unaware that the cameras were now rolling, did not interrupt the delighted guffaw she'd been enjoying. "Can you hear me Jess Phillips?" the host asked over nervous tittering from the audience. "It's Krishnan." "I can hear you, sorry," Phillips said after a moment, literally putting her hand over her mouth for a few seconds to hide her giant shit-eating grin. "Straight face," said Guru-Murthy, who then apparently realized that this was a bizarre thing to say and added "Actually you don't have to have a straight face, umm, on this show. Umm. what are you thinking?" "Oh are you talking to me now? Sorry that wasn't clear," said Phillips after a pause, her face now finally somewhat straightened out. "Sorry, I'm really tired. What I'm thinking is. it's, it's just totally devastating isn't it? It's totally devastating that all the people that I see every day, they're gonna have nowhere to turn. I mean, I should probably do that thing where we all pretend that we're gonna wait and see if the results are better than we thought, but it feels like a kick in the stomach." Jess Phillips had not been acting like a woman who felt devastated, and she had certainly not been acting like a woman who felt like she'd been kicked in the stomach. Jess Phillips had been acting like a woman on her third strawberry daiquiri down at the pub with a couple of hilarious mates. "I'm just waiting actually, I mean, for your thoughts," Guru-Murthy said after an awkward pause. "I mean, you look emotional, and upset, and that's understandable." Guru-Murthy was lying. At no time did Phillips look either emotional or upset. "Jess it's just that you look very emotional, and we know you, we know you're a normal, sane person, so it's very confusing," host Katherine Ryan bullshitted when Phillips struggled to hear what Guru-Murthy had said. "I am very emotional," Phillips lied. "But not just for me or for the Labour Party. I'm emotional for the people that the Labour Party was invented to help." The audience, probably relieved to have a taste of something that isn't intensely awkward and disturbing, erupted in applause. "Enter Jess Phillips. She backs Trident, austerity and Israel. She hates Corbyn, Williamson and Leftists in general. She doesn't believe in class politics or ideology, but she does talk about gender all the time, and says 'fuck' a lot..." https://t.co/oSj7kNytVm via @offguardian0 - Frank Owen's Legendary Paintbrush (@WarmongerHodges) March 16, 2019 For months the imperial media have been loudly anointing Phillips as the establishment choice to replace the unabashedly socialism-minded Corbyn, as Kit Knightly described for Off-Guardian back in March. This coronation-by-media continues today with outlets ranging from The Guardian to Daily Mail to Telegraph placing her on the short list to assume leadership of the Labour Party over the last couple of days. After an anti-imperialist, pro-Palestinian socialist was magically thrown into role of Opposition leader by an extraordinary accident in 2015, Phillips leapt into her role as outspoken Corbyn critic by publicly telling him "I won't knife you in the back, I'll knife you in the front." Despite this vow, Phillips proceeded to steadfastly knife Corbyn in the back by fanning the flames of incredibly disingenuous smears against his leadership, elevating the imaginary Labour antisemitism crisis to such a cartoonish extent that earlier this year she proclaimed that a tweet saying "Palestine Lives" from Young Labour "is antisemitic and it has to stop." This malicious termiting continued into the final days before the general election, with Phillips criticizing Corbyn for not responding adequately to claims about antisemitism in the Labour Party by Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis. Phillips' hot mic moment, and the mad scramble of the show's perception-managing pundits to clean it up, provides us with a brief glimpse behind the phony persona that the empire's political/media class put on for us. Should Bernie Sanders by some Corbyn-like miracle overcome the rigged primaries and receive the Democratic Party's presidential nomination, we may be absolutely certain we'll see a campaign to sabotage his run and force a loss to Trump in the US elections next year. And we may be absolutely certain they'll cackle about it just as Jess Phillips did when she thought the cameras were off. These people aren't like you and me. They don't care about truth, and they don't care about human beings. They rose to the positions they occupy within media and politics by consistently demonstrating that they'll do whatever it takes to advance the interests of the oligarchic empire while giving the people the bare minimum possible to prevent an insurrection. They're where they're at precisely because they don't care about truth or people. They care about their own dominance within our sick dominator culture, and when they achieve it, they smile, and they celebrate, and they laugh. Sometimes the guardians of empire make little mistakes. Sometimes they accidentally allow an anti-imperialist to lead one of their major parties. Sometimes they accidentally get caught in mid-guffaw when they're meant to be pretending to be heartbroken. Whenever those holes appear it's important to pay attention to them, and to shove as many rays of light through them as possible before they are closed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.manrique at gmail.com Tue Dec 17 22:03:25 2019 From: james.manrique at gmail.com (James M) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 16:03:25 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Monthly Anti-War Demos Message-ID: Hi All, I had discussed with a few of you in the past about trying to get some new energy into the monthly AWARE anti-war demos, and I'm writing to follow up on the progress of this. One of the ideas was to combine efforts with another like-minded anti-war group in town, perhaps PSL or DSA. I've reached out to Peter of the local PSL chapter. And he & PSL have expressed interests in helping us with our monthly anti-war demo. One idea that came up in the discussions with Peter was the idea of doing a monthly teach-in the week after the demo. We could hand out flyers for the teach-in to those passing by, and this can be a tangible thing to bring in outside citizens to the local anti-war movement. Peter has offered to organize the plans & logistics of the teach-in. And the topics would focus on how Champaign County connects to global war. Potential examples include: our congressman & senators have voted in favor of expanding military budgets, the UIUC law department is very favorable to promoting legal reasons why war is ok (example, the alan dershowitz talks), and the connections of the local tech industries to NSA & the military. These teach-ins could further expand on potential ways to impact or protest these local connections to war. Peter suggested to try and do the first teach-in this January. That may still be a little hasty (and january is always a tough month in general because of the cold), but Peter & I are both willing to dive into things head first and see how they go. I'd love to see new energy at the demos, and I think there is plenty of potential in this plan or a plan similar. Do these sound like good ideas? Are there things we should change or do different? Would anyone like to help with the planning &/or prepping? (Karen, I believe Peter was also going to email you directly and discuss more about some of the history of the AWARE demos.) Let me know what y'all think. Thanks! James Manrique -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbn at forestfield.org Tue Dec 17 23:45:12 2019 From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:45:12 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] AWARE on the Air #499 notes Message-ID: <688f704f-fdb4-18b7-3a5c-c9a9c6312ff6@forestfield.org> AWARE on the Air #499 Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9chEHIg6djE Feedback to C. G. Estabrook at carl at newsfromneptune.com C. G. Estabrook on "Support for the impeachment nonsense is support for the CIA/Deep State agenda" https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051653.html Populism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populism Richard Tuck on "The Left Case for Brexit" https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/left-case-brexit Pentagon Papers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers The Afghanistan Papers: A secret history of the war https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/documents-database/ https://archive.md/75YUm Responses to "The Afghanistan Papers: A secret history of the war" https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/responses-from-people-featured-in-the-afghanistan-papers/2019/12/08/086864aa-0bed-11ea-97ac-a7ccc8dd1ebc_story.html https://archive.md/PIGjW Major Danny Sjursen on "We Have Just Been Handed the Pentagon Papers of Our Generation" https://www.thenation.com/article/afghanistan-papers-forever-war/ "Ghostriders of Baghdad: Soldiers, Civilians, and the Myth of the Surge" by Major Danny Sjursen ISBN-10: 1611687810 ISBN-13: 978-1611687811 Chris Hedges, Sara Flounders interviews from RT's "In Question" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7lQQiKzKMs Sara Flounders' website https://sanctionskill.org https://iacenter.org "Violence in Central America with Oscar Martinez" interview with Chris Hedges https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao7eOKHJQyY Aaron Mat? interviews Matt Taibbi on the IG report and its consequences for media https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sQfvRO7ldk "Going Underground" with Afshin Rattansi interviews Jimmy Dore on Russiagate, the IG report, and how the Democrats are essentially promoting Trump's re-election; interview with Morgan Spurlock on "Super Size Me 2" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gwJY4PrGVo "Santa Claus Accused Of Quid Pro Quo For Giving Children Gifts In Exchange For Good Behavior" https://babylonbee.com/news/ho-ho-no-santa-claus-accused-of-quid-pro-quo-after-giving-children-gifts-in-exchange-for-good-behavior https://drrichswier.com/2019/12/17/santa-claus-accused-of-quid-pro-quo-for-giving-children-gifts-in-exchange-for-good-behavior/ http://hardnoxandfriends.com/2019/12/16/santa-accused-of-quid-pro-quo/ Alan Dershowitz on "Supreme Court ruling pulls rug out from under article of impeachment" https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/474710-supreme-court-ruling-pulls-rug-out-from-under-article-of-impeachment The Jimmy Dore Show https://www.youtube.com/user/TYTComedy/videos Tucker Carlson Tonight https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlTLHnxSVuIzrARlmz9oCfQEF08UV-v-E Nuremberg trials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials Andrew Stewart on "What Happens After Bernie Sanders Wins?" https://washingtonbabylon.com/after-bernie-wins/ OPCW https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_for_the_Prohibition_of_Chemical_Weapons Interview with former Newsweek journalist about how he quit when Newsweek wouldn't publish his work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFaCb7LMKds Caitlin Johnstone on "Journalist: Newsweek Suppressed OPCW Scandal And Threatened Me With Legal Action" https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/journalist-newsweek-suppressed-opcw-scandal-and-threatened-me-with-legal-action-7f85f490e610?source=---------3------------------ Glenn Greenwald on "The Inspector General?s Report on 2016 FBI Spying Reveals a Scandal of Historic Magnitude: Not Only for the FBI but Also the U.S. Media" https://theintercept.com/2019/12/12/the-inspector-generals-report-on-2016-fb-i-spying-reveals-a-scandal-of-historic-magnitude-not-only-for-the-fbi-but-also-the-u-s-media/ -J From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Dec 18 02:12:05 2019 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 18:12:05 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Monthly Anti-War Demos In-Reply-To: <00df01d5b531$cf1bfac0$6d53f040$@comcast.net> References: <00df01d5b531$cf1bfac0$6d53f040$@comcast.net> Message-ID: James Please use my email when contacting me as I?m not on the Peace Discuss List. Fortunately, David forwarded your email to me today. Peter and met with me to discuss the issue of working together, given I have been doing just that for a couple years now. As to PSL or ANSWER supporting AWARE demonstrations once a month, as you suggested, thats doubtful given time constraints etc. It?s possible someone may show up at some point, which would be nice but??. PSL/ANSWER is the umbrella organization for all other anti-war organizations, so I certainly support continued efforts to work with them. Peter/PSL/ANSWER will do flyers for the Teach-In which they plan on January 11th, I think thats the date, so they hope AWARE will assist in distributing flyers at our monthly demo. on January 4th. The topics as suggested are the plan, so any information or suggestions one has in relation, should be forwarded to James. > On Dec 17, 2019, at 15:29, David Johnson wrote: > > Karen, > > This is an excellent idea ! > > David J. > > From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net ] On Behalf Of James M via Peace-discuss > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2019 4:03 PM > To: Peace Discuss > Subject: [Peace-discuss] Monthly Anti-War Demos > > Hi All, > > I had discussed with a few of you in the past about trying to get some new energy into the monthly AWARE anti-war demos, and I'm writing to follow up on the progress of this. > > One of the ideas was to combine efforts with another like-minded anti-war group in town, perhaps PSL or DSA. > > I've reached out to Peter of the local PSL chapter. And he & PSL have expressed interests in helping us with our monthly anti-war demo. One idea that came up in the discussions with Peter was the idea of doing a monthly teach-in the week after the demo. We could hand out flyers for the teach-in to those passing by, and this can be a tangible thing to bring in outside citizens to the local anti-war movement. > > Peter has offered to organize the plans & logistics of the teach-in. And the topics would focus on how Champaign County connects to global war. Potential examples include: our congressman & senators have voted in favor of expanding military budgets, the UIUC law department is very favorable to promoting legal reasons why war is ok (example, the alan dershowitz talks), and the connections of the local tech industries to NSA & the military. These teach-ins could further expand on potential ways to impact or protest these local connections to war. > > Peter suggested to try and do the first teach-in this January. That may still be a little hasty (and january is always a tough month in general because of the cold), but Peter & I are both willing to dive into things head first and see how they go. > > I'd love to see new energy at the demos, and I think there is plenty of potential in this plan or a plan similar. > > Do these sound like good ideas? Are there things we should change or do different? Would anyone like to help with the planning &/or prepping? > > (Karen, I believe Peter was also going to email you directly and discuss more about some of the history of the AWARE demos.) > > Let me know what y'all think. > > Thanks! > > > James Manrique > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Dec 18 02:36:52 2019 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 18:36:52 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Monthly Anti-War Demos In-Reply-To: <35306FB9-1D7B-4C78-8EA6-56D6D4E89C09@hotmail.com> References: <00df01d5b531$cf1bfac0$6d53f040$@comcast.net> <35306FB9-1D7B-4C78-8EA6-56D6D4E89C09@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Further to my previous email, in relation to the Law School supporting war, I will discuss it with Peter. > On Dec 17, 2019, at 18:12, Karen Aram wrote: > > > James > > Please use my email when contacting me as I?m not on the Peace Discuss List. Fortunately, David forwarded your email to me today. > > Peter and met with me to discuss the issue of working together, given I have been doing just that for a couple years now. > > As to PSL or ANSWER supporting AWARE demonstrations once a month, as you suggested, thats doubtful given time constraints etc. It?s possible someone may show up at some point, which would be nice but??. > > PSL/ANSWER is the umbrella organization for all other anti-war organizations, so I certainly support continued efforts to work with them. Peter/PSL/ANSWER will do flyers for the Teach-In which they plan on January 11th, I think thats the date, so they hope AWARE will assist in distributing flyers at our monthly demo. on January 4th. > > The topics as suggested are the plan, so any information or suggestions one has in relation, should be forwarded to James. > > > > >> On Dec 17, 2019, at 15:29, David Johnson > wrote: >> >> Karen, >> >> This is an excellent idea ! >> >> David J. >> >> From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net ] On Behalf Of James M via Peace-discuss >> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2019 4:03 PM >> To: Peace Discuss >> Subject: [Peace-discuss] Monthly Anti-War Demos >> >> Hi All, >> >> I had discussed with a few of you in the past about trying to get some new energy into the monthly AWARE anti-war demos, and I'm writing to follow up on the progress of this. >> >> One of the ideas was to combine efforts with another like-minded anti-war group in town, perhaps PSL or DSA. >> >> I've reached out to Peter of the local PSL chapter. And he & PSL have expressed interests in helping us with our monthly anti-war demo. One idea that came up in the discussions with Peter was the idea of doing a monthly teach-in the week after the demo. We could hand out flyers for the teach-in to those passing by, and this can be a tangible thing to bring in outside citizens to the local anti-war movement. >> >> Peter has offered to organize the plans & logistics of the teach-in. And the topics would focus on how Champaign County connects to global war. Potential examples include: our congressman & senators have voted in favor of expanding military budgets, the UIUC law department is very favorable to promoting legal reasons why war is ok (example, the alan dershowitz talks), and the connections of the local tech industries to NSA & the military. These teach-ins could further expand on potential ways to impact or protest these local connections to war. >> >> Peter suggested to try and do the first teach-in this January. That may still be a little hasty (and january is always a tough month in general because of the cold), but Peter & I are both willing to dive into things head first and see how they go. >> >> I'd love to see new energy at the demos, and I think there is plenty of potential in this plan or a plan similar. >> >> Do these sound like good ideas? Are there things we should change or do different? Would anyone like to help with the planning &/or prepping? >> >> (Karen, I believe Peter was also going to email you directly and discuss more about some of the history of the AWARE demos.) >> >> Let me know what y'all think. >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> James Manrique >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbn at forestfield.org Wed Dec 18 03:43:25 2019 From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 21:43:25 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Yet another reason to question Democracy Now Message-ID: <1df27eb5-a796-3860-5ce3-a8c1207ca946@forestfield.org> Consider this transcript of an excerpt from a discussion between Jimmy Dore and Max Blumenthal from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWJbdIqwJBU (Dore interviews Blumenthal about charges against Blumenthal, his arrest, raid, and that the US government has now dropped these apparently false charges): [Starting around 18m16s] > Jimmy Dore: So did Democracy Now cover your story? > > Max Blumenthal: Well they did in that what they did is refer to me as > "blogger Max Blumenthal"[1] when I've done more field work, I mean > outside of Amy Goodman, I've done more field work than all of those > producers combined. And they know that, they just used it as a way to > attack me because they don't agree with me on some issues. > > Jimmy Dore: Democracy Now? So they didn't give you honest coverage on > this? > > Max Blumenthal: Well I think one of the reasons why you have, what, > 650,000 subscribers? > > Jimmy Dore: Yes. > > Max Blumenthal: Is you're filling a void that's been left by Democracy > Now as it's moved toward the center and become more like MSNBC and Amy > Goodman's sort of phoning it in more and more. So then they have these > young producers who support regime change in places like Syria, so they > despise me. Apparently. > > Jimmy Dore: Yes, it's sad. It's sad to see even lefty radio, right? So > non-corporate lefty radio is 90%, you know, CIA talking points now. It's > sad to see. > > Max Blumenthal: Yeah, if you turn on Pacifica, like, in the Bay area, > turn on Pacifica you'll hear an hour about Russiagate or Ukrainegate and > it's like who's setting the agenda there? It's the national security > state, now Pacifica is echoing those talking points? Sort of, really > tragic. > > Jimmy Dore: Well, I've tried to tell people at Pacifica that if you're > going to oppose Trump you have to do it from the Left and not the Right. > And that's a big mistake [Pacifica is making] because once you oppose > Trump from the Right, which is how they're opposing him, you're now > going against the exact mission of Pacifica radio which was founded as > an anti-war radio station. So that's kinda crazy that that's happening > right now but that's Trump Derangement Syndrome, and I'm trying to push > back against it as hard as I can in a constructive way. [1] In https://www.democracynow.org/2019/10/30/headlines/blogger_max_blumenthal_says_he_was_arrested_on_false_charges you'll find the only story covering Max Blumenthal's arrest and raid. The coverage is so short I can quote the entire coverage here: > Journalist Max Blumenthal Says He Was Arrested on False Charges > > Max Blumenthal, editor of the website The Grayzone, reports he was > arrested at his home in Washington, D.C., on October 25 by a team of > police, in what he describes as an attack on the press. Blumenthal says > he was arrested on a five-month-old warrant for assaulting a Venezuelan > opposition member during protests at the Venezuelan Embassy in March. > Blumenthal denies the charges. He says he was held in jail for two days, > shackled for five hours and denied a phone call. As I've written before, the coverage DN offered was filled with distancing language and DN (as far as I can tell) made no attempt to talk to Blumenthal about this story. Blumenthal was ready and willing to talk to other media outlets (RT, for instance, carried reports on his arrest in a few segments). Obvious questions to ask that could have provided fruitful analysis went unasked including how did it take 5 months to carry out this arrest and not discover that the woman making the charge had an axe to grind against Blumenthal (she was part of the Venezuelan opposition supporting the self-proclaimed president Juan Guaid?)? When did the investigators learn that she was making up her claims which ostensibly backed this warrant? How does DN not provide analysis on any of this, particularly after knowing that Blumenthal is a journalist who was denied his right to a phone call (the kind of thing DN used to bring to their audience's attention)? You might notice that the title on this story has changed to read "Journalist Max Blumenthal" (which is what it reads now if you visit the DN URL above). What Blumenthal referred to is the older title that still shows up in cached copies of DN's webpages. The older title read "Blogger Max Blumenthal Says He Was Arrested on False Charges" (see attached for a screenshot of some search results still showing the old title). Someone at DN apparently changed the title of the story from "Blogger" to "Journalist" so now that story doesn't show up the same way if you visit the story directly but cached copies of pages that pointed to that story show up with the old title. Hence Blumenthal's read on this is correct and truthful, but DN has altered their archive. -J -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Blogger Max Blumenthal.png Type: image/png Size: 127914 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jbn at forestfield.org Wed Dec 18 03:48:47 2019 From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 21:48:47 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Yet another reason to question Democracy Now In-Reply-To: <1df27eb5-a796-3860-5ce3-a8c1207ca946@forestfield.org> References: <1df27eb5-a796-3860-5ce3-a8c1207ca946@forestfield.org> Message-ID: I wrote: > [1] In > https://www.democracynow.org/2019/10/30/headlines/blogger_max_blumenthal_says_he_was_arrested_on_false_charges The old DN headline is memorialized from when it was originally published which is why it's still "blogger_max_blumenthal" in that story's URL. I'd guess that DN uses WordPress software (a popular blogging application) for their site and using a variation of the headline for a blog post as part of the URL is how WordPress typically creates a blog post's URL. From carl at newsfromneptune.com Wed Dec 18 18:55:19 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 12:55:19 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] From The Babylon Bee Message-ID: <706DBF55-03E4-42AA-B807-243F43EA663E@newsfromneptune.com> What is impeachment? It's the official, constitutional method for screaming at the sky because Trump is president. Why is Trump being impeached? Trump has committed some very serious offenses, from not being a Democrat to being a Republican. He also won the 2016 election, which rises to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors. He also restored the celebration of Christmas after eight years of winter with no Christmas under Obama. This drove Dems up a wall so they drummed up some charges against him. Why didn't Democrats include any criminal offenses in the articles of impeachment? There were just so many of them, it was hard to pick one. So, instead of laying out actually impeachable offenses, the Democrats summarized it all with two main articles of impeachment: 1.) Trump is president. 2.) TRUMP IS PRESIDENT. What does it take to remove the president from office? Faith, trust, and pixie dust. Will Trump be removed from office? Lol. If we believe in ourselves and try hard, and Trump is removed, Hillary Clinton becomes president, right? Actually, Mike Pence would become president, basically making the United States into a Handmaid's Tale-style dystopia. What happens if Trump is impeached in the House but acquitted in the Senate? Democrats don't get the big prize, but they each get a complimentary copy of Impeachment: The Board Game. Once the House votes to officially impeach President Trump, what happens next? Trump wins the 2020 election. ### -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkb3 at icloud.com Thu Dec 19 04:17:22 2019 From: mkb3 at icloud.com (Morton K. Brussel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 22:17:22 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: Gen Z will have it worse References: <47c1a9cec9749a8f8cbc83e78.b205e274c1.20191219000423.58f8609776.a45ac0ca@mail105.suw17.mcsv.net> Message-ID: From MIT, no less.The end of capitalism is bound to happen, maybe even by 2030, when I unfortunately(?) would be 101 . ?mkb > Begin forwarded message: > > From: MIT Technology Review > Subject: Gen Z will have it worse > Date: December 18, 2019 at 6:04:41 PM CST > To: > Reply-To: MIT Technology Review > > > View in your browser > What's trending in tech this week? > > Keynes was wrong. Gen Z will have it worse. > Instead of never-ending progress, today?s kids face a world on the edge of collapse. What next? > > Read more?? > > Tidal forces carry the mathematical signature of gravitational waves > > The idea is something of a technicality , but nevertheless an interesting one. > > Facebook has a neural network that can do advanced math > > Other neural nets haven?t progressed beyond simple addition and multiplication, but this one calculates integrals and solves differential equations. > > Wildfires have changed. It?s time the science did too. > > Inside the quest to produce a bigger, better way to predict how the world?s deadliest blazes will behave. > > Here are some actual facts about George Church?s DNA dating company > > It?s called Digid8 and will try to use your genes to make sure you never meet the wrong person. > Are you prepared to implement AI across your organization? > > Join us at EmTech Digital as we bring together preeminent leaders in the AI community to address practical, technical, and strategic AI deployment issues facing organizations over the next 12 months. > > Get ideas and inspiration to chart your path forward. > > Register now > Copyright ? 2019 MIT Technology Review, All rights reserved. > You are receiving this email because you opted in to receive newsletters and/or promotional emails from MIT Technology Review. > > Our mailing address is: > MIT Technology Review > 1 Main St > Cambridge, MA 02142-1531 > > Add us to your address book > > Want to change how you receive these emails? > You can update your preferences or unsubscribe from this list . > > > > > > > > This email was sent to mkb3 at mac.com > why did I get this? unsubscribe from this list update subscription preferences > MIT Technology Review ? 1 Main St ? Cambridge, MA 02142-1531 ? USA > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Thu Dec 19 05:40:01 2019 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 23:40:01 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: Gen Z will have it worse In-Reply-To: References: <47c1a9cec9749a8f8cbc83e78.b205e274c1.20191219000423.58f8609776.a45ac0ca@mail105.suw17.mcsv.net> Message-ID: May we all enjoy the end of capitalism in good health. On Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 10:17 PM Morton K. Brussel via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > From MIT, no less.The end of capitalism is bound to happen, maybe even by > 2030, when I unfortunately(?) would be 101 . > > ?mkb > > Begin forwarded message: > > *From: *MIT Technology Review > *Subject: **Gen Z will have it worse* > *Date: *December 18, 2019 at 6:04:41 PM CST > *To: * > *Reply-To: *MIT Technology Review > > [image: MIT Technology Review] > > > View in your browser > > What's trending in tech this week? > > > Keynes was wrong. Gen Z will have it worse. > Instead of never-ending progress, today?s kids face a world on the edge of > collapse. What next? > > Read more ? > > > > *Tidal forces carry the mathematical signature of gravitational waves* > > The idea is something of a technicality > , > but nevertheless an interesting one. > > > *Facebook has a neural network that can do advanced math* > > Other neural nets haven?t progressed beyond simple addition and > multiplication, but this one calculates integrals and solves differential > equations. > > > > *Wildfires have changed. It?s time the science did too.* > > Inside the quest to produce a bigger, better way to predict > > how the world?s deadliest blazes will behave. > > > *Here are some actual facts about George Church?s DNA dating company* > > It?s called Digid8 > > and will try to use your genes to make sure you never meet the wrong > person. > Are you prepared to implement AI across your organization? > Join us at EmTech Digital as we bring together preeminent leaders in the > AI community to address practical, technical, and strategic AI deployment > issues facing organizations over the next 12 months. > > Get ideas and inspiration to chart your path forward. > > Register now > > *Copyright ? 2019 MIT Technology Review, All rights reserved.* > You are receiving this email because you opted in to receive newsletters > and/or promotional emails from MIT Technology Review. > > *Our mailing address is:* > MIT Technology Review > 1 Main St > Cambridge, MA 02142-1531 > > Add us to your address book > > > > Want to change how you receive these emails? > You can update your preferences > > or unsubscribe from this list > > . > > > > > > > > This email was sent to mkb3 at mac.com > *why did I get this?* > > unsubscribe from this list > > update subscription preferences > > > MIT Technology Review ? 1 Main St ? Cambridge, MA 02142-1531 ? USA > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbn at forestfield.org Fri Dec 20 00:39:41 2019 From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 18:39:41 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Notes Message-ID: <6361cc0b-c832-cc2d-f5fb-e0d719440a5e@forestfield.org> News is coming fast Need time to digest it all Constipation hurts Here are some topics to consider discussing on News from Neptune and/or AWARE on the Air. If I had to give the notes a theme name, I'd call them the "exploitation edition". Syria/War: More OPCW leaks further confirm the alleged Syrian chemical attack was a staged chemical weapons incident. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o6RA6C2WDM -- Aaron Mat? interviews former Newsweek journalist Tareq Haddad who quit his job over Newsweek's refusal to cover the OPCW?s [Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons] unfolding Syria scandal. https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/19/newsweek-reporter-quits-after-editors-block-coverage-of-opcw-syria-scandal/ -- > According to whistleblower testimony and leaked documents, OPCW > officials raised alarm about the suppression of critical findings that > undermine the allegation that the Syrian government committed a chemical > weapons attack in the city of Douma in April 2018. Haddad?s editors at > Newsweek rejected his attempts to cover the story. ?If I don?t find > another position in journalism because of this, I?m perfectly happy to > accept that consequence,? Haddad says. ?It?s not desirable. But there is > no way I could have continued in that job knowing that I couldn?t report > something like this.? https://tareqhaddad.com/2019/12/14/lies-newsweek-and-control-of-the-media-narrative-first-hand-account/ -- Haddad's own account of what happened and why he left Newsweek. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWJbdIqwJBU -- Jimmy Dore interviews Max Blumenthal on many topics including the corporate/neocon support for smearing anyone who pointed out the Venezuelan coup (including The Grayzone Project crew's Anya Parampil & Max Blumenthal), and the additional OPCW leaks which confirm that the Syrian chemical attack was a manufactured pretext to ostensibly justify the US/UK/French coordinated attack. Here's a transcript of the Syria portion of the interview starting around 41m08s into https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWJbdIqwJBU Background: Higgins is a founder of Bellingcat, a website known for spreading neocon-supporting lies in the Skripal and Douma investigations among others. Relating to the US' Venezuela coup attempts, Blumenthal was arrested and had his home raided on the basis of the allegation from a 58-year-old immigrant woman who supports the Venezuelan coup. As of mid-December 2019, police recently dropped Blumenthal's false charges. [On screen: Jimmy Dore shows https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/1191679166111977479 a tweet from Eliot Higgins which Dore is about to read.] > Jimmy Dore: [...] by this guy, Eliot Higgins, who, by the way, got his > expertise by, I'm not kidding, he got his expertise in weapons, because > he considers himself a weapons expert, by playing videogames. Not > kidding. Not kidding. That's in the New York Times. So this guy says > "Documenting Max Blumenthal's Arrest for Assaulting a 58-Year-Old > Immigrant Woman from Venezuela". > > Max Blumenthal: Yeah, this sort of 'open source journalism' that Eliot > Higgins admires where they basically put a bunch of phony arrest > warrants and court documents in this by someone who is just constantly > smearing me. And Eliot Higgins knew exactly what he was doing which is > to put it out there and then say 'Let's all remember he's innocent > before being proven guilty'. Why would you put all this out there? It's > obvious that you want me to be locked away because you don't like my > journalism and I have done significant damage to your narrative. And > that's just what it is, it's a narrative that he's putting forward. He > uses open source journalism to create a plausible narrative without > going to the ground, there's no field journalism there, that supports > western foreign policy. So he was the guy that, apparently, when the US > put pressure on the OPCW [Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical > Weapons] to declare that a chemical attack had, in fact, occurred in the > suburb of Douma which was used to trigger a US military assault on > Syria, he was the guy along with Bellingcat, that the OPCW went to to > doctor their report which has now been completely discredited. > > Jimmy Dore: What do you mean they went to him to doctor it? > > Max Blumenthal: It looks to be the case, this is what Ted Postol, an > actual rocket scientist I think told Aaron Mat?, this is what we're > learning, and Higgins hasn't denied it, which is that Bellingcat had > substantial input into the phony OPCW report. And when I say it was > doctored, look at Jonathan Steele, one of the journalists who got to > meet with the OPCW whistleblower, that whistleblower told Steele that > three US officials approached the OPCW and demanded that they produce a > report stating that a chemical attack had occurred even though they had > no scientific evidence or any evidence that one [such attack] had > [occurred]. And so in comes Bellingcat, apparently, and the report still > wasn't really a very strong report, but then when it dropped Bellingcat > touted that it shows 'oh, that there are organophosphorate on the > scene'. > > Jimmy Dore: [shaking his head 'no'] Didn't show that. Didn't show that. > That was false, in fact there were people who contradicted that: they > suppressed their findings and didn't include it in the report. > > Max Blumenthal: Yeah, so the point is, this guy is, it appears that he > and Bellingcat have been involved in lying the public into a military > assault. So when I called him out for this disgusting Twitter post he > came back at me and said 'Max, got any war crimes to deny?'. I don't > know what war crimes I'm denying. But the response to him is that it > appears you were involved in what could have been a war crime. > > Jimmy Dore: Yeah. > > Max Blumenthal: What the US did to Syria was a war crime. > > Jimmy Dore: Right. > > Max Blumenthal: And he [Eliot Higgins] is supplying the background noise > for that with Bellingcat. They [Higgins & Bellingcat] have a lot of > questions to answer about their involvement in this doctored report. > > Jimmy Dore: I have a feeling they're never gonna answer any of those > questions, Max. And everybody knows who Bellingcat is now. All they have > to do is go to YouTube; that video [of Jimmy Dore on Eliot Higgins with > Dore's live audience] has gotten tens of thousands of views, if not a > hundred. And so anybody can just refer -- just go to his [Higgins'] > Twitter feed and I post that video all the time so people who follow him > know who he is. And he's not foolin' anybody. > > Max Blumenthal: Consider the dissonance between the conversation we're > having now and the conversation people are witnessing here about > Bellingcat and their record and what's sold to the rest of the public. > Bellingcat just won an international Emmy for this bunk documentary > about how great they are and what a genius Higgins is. And they're being > celebrated in the New York Times, and in fact, one of the New York Times > new Directors of Investigation came out of Bellingcat. So the New York > Times is actually hiring people from this organization which is > intimately linked to the national security state. So it's like they're > all part of the same apparatus. If you're not turning to alternative > media on this you're going to be left completely in the dark about why > we are going to war or sanctioning this or that country. > > Jimmy Dore: So the budget director, David Stockman, for Ronald Reagan > [...] was recently on Fox Business with Maria Buttafuoco [Maria > Bartiromo] and they were pushing the Syria lie and he [Stockman] said of > course he [Assad] didn't gas his own people! Like everybody says so! > Well he [Stockman] says you've gotta quit listening to the mainstream > media! Get outside the mainstream -- this is a guy from the Reagan > administration telling Fox News that they've gotta get out of the > mainstream news if they wanna get the truth about Syria. So I think > people know [not to trust the mainstream media]. I don't think anybody > believes the mainstream media anymore on Syria, do you? > > Max Blumenthal: I actually went through Douma where the attack occurred. > I wasn't able to go to the location because the Syrian military controls > access. But I went through Douma, I saw it. And I went with someone who > was from Douma who actually had to leave because the so-called Moderate > Rebels took over his neighborhood and set up a recruiting center for the > Saudi-funded militia known as the Army of Islam. And he told me that > everybody in Syria, this wasn't affiliated with someone from the Syrian > government, [...] he told me that everybody was watching that day that > the chemical attack was said to have occurred. And the rebels in the > area are said to have been completely defeated. The Syrian military had > no reason to drop a chemical weapon, they'd already won! And then the > last-ditch attempt by the rebels to stir up a US military event -- > intervention -- took place where they basically staged this incident. > And nobody in Syria believed there was a chemical attack. [...] They > were watching live on TV, there was a livestream setup in the area on > all the state TV channels so it wasn't like they were trying to hide > anything either. And when I went to Syria, I just got mercilessly > attacked by this same echo chamber because, obviously, they don't want > me to show what's going on in and around Damascus. Labor/Exploitation: Child labor in the Congolese cobalt mines gets a court hearing as Congolese families sue tech giants over their dead, maimed, and exploited children who have suffered mining cobalt for the tech giants. Cobalt is used in batteries which are found in every tracker/cell phone, laptop, and car; cobalt is thus one of many materials needed for our so-called "green future" in which we shift to powering more of our gadgets with batteries. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7lQQiKzKMs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJyELDmmFvA -- RT's reports (RT is one of the few places to get coverage that doesn't shy away from criticizing the tech industry on this issue; plenty of other corporate-framed discussion sites like Slashdot and Hacker News permit neoliberal commentary which discourage questioning modern-day tech practices and discourage keeping older computers for longer). jbn: Free software has a part to play in this as well -- free software is published software which we're free to run, inspect, share, and modify including commercially. Free software gives us a practical reason to care about how our computers work, even if we're non-technical computer users who can't directly use the technical information ourselves. Computers that operate fully using free software are computers that we can keep in service longer. The computers we use were very likely produced with exploitative practices, but we can make processes that use the advanced capabilities of today's computers by not relying on others getting newer computers every other year (which is exactly what tracker/cell phone manufacturers urge us all to do about once every other year). Current practices fuel the exploitation which Alphabet (Google), Apple, and other tech giants are rightly accused of. Democrats/Russiagate: What if the impeachment process doesn't go well for the Democrats? "Plan B" is to bring back the Mueller report! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmXrYjFll7o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24z4bxIgP4k -- RT: It's difficult to understand the purpose of last night's impeachment vote: why should the upper house of the US Congress pass judgment on Donald Trump when Democrats already have a 'plan B'? The House Judiciary Committee said it will continue to investigate Donald Trump regardless of the outcome. But what else is left to investigate? Well, the House Judiciary Committee is saying that they will resurrect the dead, i.e., the Mueller Report. This will give them a chance to get back to their roots and bring up that old Russian collusion agenda and they can get the impeachment hearings going all over again: From US House Judiciary Committee legal brief: > The public version of the Mueller Report contains numerous redactions... > These rule 6(E) redactions withhold information about President Trump's > knowledge of his campaign's contacts with Russian officials and > WikiLeaks and therefore bear on whether the President committed > impeachable offenses... RT's reports indicating that Rep. Nancy Pelosi seems unwilling to introduce the articles of impeachment to the Senate and even she realizes that the Democrats are giving voters no reason to go vote Democrat (or vote at all); after all, impeachment does not give voters Medicare for All, a living wage, potable water pipes, a national jobs program, cleaner air, free education, nor does it end wars or bring back the soldiers, contractors, and their weapons. Voting: Exclusive RT interview with Greg Palast: Expect red state voter purge in 2020 --Greg Palast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGSUTcZ5oX8 -- RT's interview with Greg Palast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmWgZUsMbWU -- Jimmy Dore's coverage of the same issue and Bernie Sanders' response which motivates nobody to vote for his candidacy. FBI: FBI found to be lying to FISA court. Jimmy Dore offers multiple examinations of this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZLx1ofEAz4 -- Lawrence O'Donnell of MSNBC defends FBI lying to FISA court. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VurVs8yg8lQ -- MSNBC claiming it's telling their viewers the facts, which would be a new thing for that network to the extent their claim is true. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FOzRVoPE94 -- MSNBC defends lying and discredited Steele dossier https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb0gyt9Vriw -- James Comey downplays how his FBI lied to get FISA warrants, lies about how hard FISA warrants are to get (they're incredibly easy to get -- In 2013 we saw reports much like what Mother Jones published including "FISA Court Has Rejected .03 Percent Of All Government Surveillance Requests" from https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2013/06/fisa-court-nsa-spying-opinion-reject-request/ which is coming from Mother Jones, a source that has been incredibly sympathetic to neocon coverage) In https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2013/06/fisa-court-nsa-spying-opinion-reject-request/ David Corn wrote in 2013: > After last week?s revelations extensive National Security Agency > surveillance of phone and internet communications, President Barack > Obama made it a point to assure Americans that, not to worry, there is > plenty of oversight of his administration?s snooping programs. ?We?ve > got congressional oversight and judicial oversight,? he said Friday, > referring in part to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC), > which was created in 1979 to oversee Department of Justice requests for > surveillance warrants against foreign agents suspected of espionage or > terrorism in the United States. But the FISC has declined just 11 of the > more than 33,900 surveillance requests made by the government in 33 > years, the Wall Street Journal reported Sunday. That?s a rate of .03 > percent, which raises questions about just how much judicial oversight > is actually being provided. Similar stories throughout the years: 2015: https://www.zdnet.com/article/us-spy-court-didnt-reject-a-single-secret-government-demand-for-data/ 2017: https://dailycaller.com/2017/03/06/fisa-surveillance-requests-are-almost-never-rejected/ 2017: https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/last-6-years-record-fisa-court-denied-0-9400-electronic-surveillance which includes: > In the last six years on record (2010-2015), the Foreign Intelligence > Surveillance Court did not deny a single application out of the 9,400 > the government submitted seeking authority ?to conduct electronic > surveillance for foreign intelligence purposes? under the terms of the > Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, according to reports filed by the > U.S. Justice Department. > > The last time the court denied an electronic surveillance application > under FISA was 2009. That year, the court denied one application > outright and denied another in part. This CNSNews.com story also includes a chart showing year by year the number of applications, how many were approved, approved-but-modified, withdrawn, denied-in-part, and denied. 2019: https://www.thetcanada.com/2019/12/18/fisa-court-fbi-secretive-surveillance-court-rebukes-fbi/ which includes: > [...] open criticism of a federal agency is uncommon for the secretive > FISA court, some observers were skeptical that procedural tweaks would > generate sincere reform, given that FBI agents are already required to > swear under threat of perjury that every application is truthful and > accurate. > > The court itself, meanwhile, seldom turns down an FBI request, with a > minuscule 0.03 percent rejection rate over its 30-plus years in > operation. There is little reason to expect that to change after January > 10. Assange: Medical experts are "not allowed in" to Julian Assange hearing RT remains one of the few places one can get coverage of how Assange is doing, coverage of the pro-press freedom/pro-release Assange protests outside Belmarsh prison (where is Assange is unjustifiably being held well beyond any requirement by legal judgment), and coverage at each Assange court hearing. This is another mark of shame for other allegedly progressive news outlets including Democracy Now which (according to their own website: https://www.democracynow.org/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&query=assange) apparently doesn't conduct interviews with Assange's father John Shipton (https://www.democracynow.org/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&query=Shipton returns no hits as of 2019-12-19) and other attendees of Assange-related events. Occasionally DN guests speak on Assange's behalf but that's not the same as what RUPTLY does: RT visits the site of the event, points a camera at the people there, lets them speak, and then runs the recorded footage. This is famously how RUPTLY (RT's comment-free dead-roll camera outlet) got the only footage we have of Assange being forced out of the Ecuadorian embassy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMZU2DnPD4Q -- RT interview with interviewees who wanted to bring medical testimony to court, and summarize findings by Nils Melzer, the UN rapporteur on torture who visited Assange in May 2019, who says that Assange's condition is consistent with someone suffering from torture. https://on.rt.com/9z0f -- Nils Melzer is quoted: > Given the strongly perceptible public and official prejudice held > against Mr. Assange in the United States, there are serious reasons to > doubt that he would receive a fair trial before an impartial judicial > body as required under human rights law. > > I underscore my most serious concern that, if Mr. Assange were to be > extradited or otherwise surrendered to the United States... he would be > exposed to a real risk of torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading > treatment or punishment. > > [Assange shows] all symptoms typical for prolonged and sustained > exposure to severe psychological stress, anxiety and related mental and > emotional suffering in an environment highly conducive to major > depressive and post-traumatic stress disorders (PTSD).? https://cdnv.rt.com/files/2019.06/5cfcb89ddda4c876728b463d.mp4 -- Christopher Hedges interview with Nils Melzer from July 7, 2019 https://www.rt.com/shows/on-contact/461420-julian-assange-prison-torture/ -- transcript of above interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYk-_E_BUcQ -- recent RT interview with Nils Melzer Healthcare: US healthcare delivery is coming to UK. John Pilger's latest documentary, "The Dirty War on the NHS", covers what that means and how this has been in the works for years. Perhaps the American people can help warn the UK away from this shift before they lose what the UK public sees as a widely-valued institution. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlJGL8Z52YE -- John Pilger's latest documentary "The Dirty War on the NHS" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHZcXrc9_wk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkH-JPlTgMQ -- John Pilger interviewed by Afshin Rattansi on RT's "Going Underground" about "The Dirty War on the NHS" Related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHDkALRz5Rk -- DW's documentary on "How poor people survive in the USA". The last segment of this is not as good as the previous segments, but this does help show what's in store for the UK's poor when the NHS becomes nothing but a brand wherein healthcare is decided upon by HMOs. -J From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Fri Dec 20 13:52:25 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 07:52:25 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: WORLD LABOR HOUR - SAT. DEC. 21st Message-ID: <00c301d5b73c$b69b00b0$23d10210$@comcast.net> WORLD LABOR HOUR SATURDAY DECEMBER 21st 11 AM - 1 PM (U.S. Central Time ) 104.5 FM and webcast LIVE worldwide at ; www.wrfu.net JOHN DUNN - Retired Union Miner and veteran of the 1980's British mine wars, will call in to the program from the U.K., to talk about the recent U.K. elections. Report updates on the French General Strike, continued resistance and General Strikes in South America, and more. WRFU 104.5 FM - corporate free listener supported community radio -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbn at forestfield.org Sat Dec 21 18:32:46 2019 From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 12:32:46 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] News from Neptune #444 notes Message-ID: <6082e61d-08eb-93e6-4e64-faab5bbc9280@forestfield.org> News from Neptune #444 Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQboZen0Ve8 A "Present" edition Tulsi Gabbard voted "Present" on Trump impeachment https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/20/roaming-charges-7/ -- Jeffrey St. Clair's notes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozPpQjLf_1M -- Jimmy Dore interview with Rep. Gabbard about this vote "Bernie & the Sandernistas" by Jeffrey St. Clair https://store.counterpunch.org/product/bernie-the-sandernistas/ Katie Halper on "Tonight?s Democratic Debate Co-Moderator Has a Longstanding Anti-Bernie Bias" https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/12/democratic-debate-bernie-sanders-yamiche-alcindor Frank Bruni on "Give Joe Biden His Due" https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/20/opinion/wine-cave-debate.html The Babylon Bee on "The Bee Explains: Impeachment" https://babylonbee.com/news/the-bee-explains-impeachment/ Democracy Now on "As Democratic Field Gets Whiter, DNC Should ?Press Pause? & Fix Process Shutting Out People of Color" https://www.democracynow.org/2019/12/20/democratic_debate_lack_of_diversity Jeremy Corbyn on what his pronouns are https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/16/jeremy-corbyn-pronouns-lgbt-equality-pinknews-awards-eastenders/ -- PinkNews on "Jeremy Corbyn shares his pronouns in solidarity with trans community at PinkNews Awards" https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3719713-My-name-is-Jeremy-Corbyn-and-my-pronouns-are-he-him -- discussion on mumsnet ("by parents for parents") Thomas B. Edsall on "Are There Limits to the Rights Revolution?" https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/18/opinion/transgender-rights-democrats.html Nina Paley's "Neenster" and blog https://neenster.org/ http://blog.ninapaley.com/ Marxism mailing list archives http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/archives.htm -- older archives https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/listinfo/marxism -- current archives and form to subscribe or unsubscribe Liam Stack on "J.K. Rowling Criticized After Tweeting Support for Anti-Transgender Researcher" https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html Transgender sprinters finish 1st, 2nd at Connecticut girls indoor track championships https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/feb/24/terry-miller-andraya-yearwood-transgender-sprinter/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/06/19/girls-say-connecticuts-transgender-athlete-policy-violates-title-ix-file-federal-complaint/ Views about transgenderism and sex in sport from Reason.com https://reason.com/2019/03/11/who-is-a-woman-in-sport/ https://reason.com/2019/03/14/sex-testing-in-elite-sport/ Benjamin Studebaker & Aimee Terese's show "What's Left?" https://soundcloud.com/whatisleftpod/ -- list of recent episodes https://twitter.com/whatisleftpod -- Twitter account https://feeds.soundcloud.com/users/soundcloud:users:595199712/sounds.rss -- RSS feed Yves Smith on "Tucker Carlson Tears into Vulture Capitalist Paul Singer for Strip Mining American Towns" https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2019/12/tucker-carlson-tears-into-vulture-capitalist-paul-singer-for-strip-mining-american-towns.html Joti Brar is a leader of the Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist) https://twitter.com/joti2gaza -- Twitter posts https://thecommunists.org/ Truthdig https://www.truthdig.com/ Jeffrey St. Clair on "Roaming Charges: You Go Back, Jack, Do It Again" in regards to Truthdig https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/20/roaming-charges-7/ Common Dreams https://www.commondreams.org/ "A Brief History of Neoliberalism" by David Harvey ISBN-13: 978-0199283279 ISBN-10: 0199283273 Populism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populism Related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBwmYneezNE -- Afshin Rattansi interviews Jimmy Dore on bipartisan support for neoconservatism & neoliberalism; real meaning of Trump impeachment Jimmy Dore on Bernie Sanders campaign https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmWgZUsMbWU -- on Sanders objection to voter purge by GOP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NohSCoBNYqM -- "Un-endorsing" Cenk Uyghur https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ_GR38HcPs -- Cenk Uyghur replies Walden Bello on "Capitalism with Chinese Characteristics" https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/10/capitalism-with-chinese-characteristics/ Walden Bello on "Good Riddance to the WTO" https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/20/good-riddance-to-the-wto/ "This is Hell!" Show RSS feed: https://thisishell.com/rss.xml Brian Mier on "Chronicle of a Coup Foretold" https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/20/chronicle-of-a-coup-foretold-2/ Brasil Wire http://www.brasilwire.com/ Philip Weiss on "Israeli Jews are ?equivalent of Seminoles deciding to take over Florida? and Palestinians are the cowboys ? Jeffrey Goldberg reemerges" https://mondoweiss.net/2019/12/israeli-jews-are-equivalent-of-seminoles-deciding-to-take-over-florida-and-arabs-are-the-cowboys-jeffrey-goldberg-reemerges/ "A Hidden Life" written & directed by Terrence Malick https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Hidden_Life_(2019_film) Michael McCaffrey on "A Hidden Life is the Story of a Farmer Who Resisted Hitler - NOT a Metaphor for Anti-Trump #Resistance" http://mpmacting.com/blog/2019/12/19/a-hidden-life-is-not-metaphor-for-resistance-but-an-indictment-of-empire-adoring-establishmentarians Philosophize This! http://philosophizethis.org/ RSS feed: https://philosophizethis.libsyn.com/rss Episode discussing Leo Strauss: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/philosophizethis/Leo_Strauss.mp3?dest-id=144660 Episodes on Nietzsche: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/philosophizethis/Nietzsche_Part_1.mp3?dest-id=144660 https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/philosophizethis/Will_to_Power.mp3?dest-id=144660 https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/philosophizethis/Thus_Spoke_Zarathustra.mp3?dest-id=144660 https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/philosophizethis/Nietzsche_On_Love.mp3?dest-id=144660 J.B. Nicholson notes [lists.chambana.net was unreachable or returning a 502 error as this set of notes were edited. The notes posted to peace and peace-discuss mailing lists should eventually show up somewhere on these URLs.] https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/ https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/ -J From jbn at forestfield.org Sat Dec 21 23:47:41 2019 From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 17:47:41 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Updated pointer to research notes In-Reply-To: <6082e61d-08eb-93e6-4e64-faab5bbc9280@forestfield.org> References: <6082e61d-08eb-93e6-4e64-faab5bbc9280@forestfield.org> Message-ID: I wrote: > J.B. Nicholson notes > [lists.chambana.net was unreachable or returning a 502 error as this set of > notes were edited. The notes posted to peace and peace-discuss mailing > lists should eventually show up somewhere on these URLs.] > https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/ > https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/ The web archives are online now so here are the more specific URLs for these notes: https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051707.html https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015514.html From carl at newsfromneptune.com Sun Dec 22 01:25:03 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 19:25:03 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] CJ Hopkins' column Message-ID: <7683B6AD-BF99-4AF3-982F-4532586EEECD@newsfromneptune.com> https://consentfactory.org/2019/12/18/the-year-of-manufactured-hysteria/ From carl at newsfromneptune.com Sun Dec 22 02:16:26 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 20:16:26 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Via Kim Carlson Message-ID: <9B1CF362-5EFE-446C-994D-2268FCEDC37F@newsfromneptune.com> Paula Densnow is in FB jail yet again for telling the inconvenient truth. I shared this post of hers a while back, but considering the dismal state of affairs, it merits posting again. "I got my nursing license and my last job long before the increasing repression started. I watched as the young ones were forced to give their fingerprints, pee in cups and pay for background checks, but that particular net skipped me. Everyone adjusts to the new paradigm, no matter how outrageously oppressive. When I told the young 'uns that we didn't used to submit to such indignities, that applying for a job was separate from being accused of a crime, they didn't believe me. Surely, it was ever thus, that your boss had the power to make you prove yourself innocent, or be considered guilty. Now I am watching as the tribe I used to belong to, the liberal tribe, is expertly herded towards acceptance of a police state and endless war. They used to support free speech. Now they cheer on censorship and approve of physically attacking anyone who says something they don't like. They used to support a free press. Now they yammer on about the need to censor, and they enthusiastically support the persecution of Julian Assange. They used to distrust the CIA and the FBI. Now they viciously attack anyone who points out obvious lies and abuse of power by those agencies. They used to oppose war. Now they scream about the Evil Russians and the Devious Chinese, the Horrible North Koreans and the Oppressed Syrians and Venezuelans, and happily support provocations to those countries (among others). I am left standing here on the beach, feeling the sand slip away under my feet, as the tide goes out, and this country becomes more and more fascist, with my former tribe happily swimming with the sharks. I value my Facebook friends around the world, who are also watching with horror, as the boot stomps on more and more faces. Thank you for holding fast to your values." From carl at newsfromneptune.com Sun Dec 22 02:30:06 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 20:30:06 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Sjursen on impeachment fraud Message-ID: <1E79CA08-082D-4848-8E4F-B5BD066D34A7@newsfromneptune.com> https://original.antiwar.com/Danny_Sjursen/2019/12/19/the-united-states-of-impeachment/ From mkb3 at icloud.com Sun Dec 22 05:28:56 2019 From: mkb3 at icloud.com (Morton K. Brussel) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 23:28:56 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Democrats_=26_impeachment=2C_Aaron_Mat?= =?utf-8?b?w6k=?= Message-ID: <9775DB07-03CE-4C48-880E-68A9D989CD89@icloud.com> Appeared in The Nation. Better than they usually publish: https://www.thenation.com/article/impeachment-democrat-pelosi-doomed/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sun Dec 22 17:53:23 2019 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 09:53:23 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] NFN In-Reply-To: References: <6082e61d-08eb-93e6-4e64-faab5bbc9280@forestfield.org> Message-ID: Carl I?m sorry, if it appears I?m always bashing your statements on NFN, in spite of supporting your primary anti-war views. Please tell me how does voting ?present,? as did Tulsi Gabbard, in reference to Impeachment, differ from ?abstention?? How does it prove ?courage,? rather than ?cowardice,? as a local Representative here, was accused a couple years ago, when abstaining from a vote related to BDS. Please don?t repeat what Tulsi said, as I don?t see anything said by or as a candidate of value. BDS is an issue in which Tulsi clearly supported Israel with her vote recently. Which begs the question, how does an anti-war candidate support Israel in their continued murder of Palestinians? David I?m also a fan of Walden Bello, as he has been involved in Social Protection issues with the ILO, as well as having a presence in Bangkok some years ago, though a Filipino national. Now retired from the U. of Philippines, he is a lecturer at Binghamton University in the US. His article on Counterpunch to which you refer is good, though something he overlooked to mention is: 1) The Scarborough Island contention, referred to in the article, between the Philippines and China, was orchestrated by the US. Not one Filipino Attorney was present in relation to the trial that took place with the ICCLOS/International Court on Law of the Seas. The island had never been used by the Philippines, and upon taking office current President Duerte dismissed the issue saying ?we don?t want it, China can have it,? infuriating the US. He has now changed his tune and is demanding it be returned to the Philippines. Duerte, not a nice guy, neither was Saddam, nor is Assad, represents a small vulnerable nation with US military bases populating the island, Duerte had the US military bases closed in the south, but the remaining bases in the north are still there, pointing at China. Put simply the Philippines is a very vulnerable nation, having been a former and current US colony in one way or another. I await further articles on this topic by Walden Bello, hoping he will point out the reason China has become so defensive, that being the US Pivot to China during the Obama Administration placing US battleships throughout the South China Sea. Too many Asian indigenous peoples, especially the Filipino?s having been colonized by the US, have relatives working around the world, especially in the US are western wannabe?s. Our soft power of film, education, missionaries whether Catholic, Mormon, Jehovah Witnesses, etc. have had the propaganda effect the Council on Foreign Relations perfected over the years. Hong Kong, and India having been colonized by the Brits, tend to have forgotten the past horrors inflicted by colonization, now worship all that the west has to offer. Some might refer to it as white supremacist adulation. Carl and I discussed the situation of the Philippines on AOTA many times. 2) It needs to be stated, people throughout Southeast Asia, generally dislike China, though knowing little about the nation, but because it?s the Chinese within their own nations who for centuries have controlled business and commerce. Less dislike exists in Thailand where the peoples have intermarried so extensively due to shared culture and religion of Buddhism. Not as much intermarriage has taken place in Catholic/Christian Philippines, and very little at all in either Muslim Malaysia or Indonesia. I mention this because the similarity to the Jews of Europe has not gone unnoticed by some lesser known Asian scholars in the past. Most notably when half a million Chinese Indonesians were murdered in 1965, during regime change, as a result of US fear of Communism taking root there. The US was behind it, and proof was provided on ?Democracy Now," by the Director of a film covering the massacre, going so far as to provide the names of the US Embassy personnel involved. Malaysia also at one time, scapegoated the Chinese minority during economic stress and violence was perpetrated against the Chinese communities. PM Mahathur famous for making racist statements against them, nonetheless when speaking with Chinese Malaysians expressed love for him, as he protected them. The discrimination against the Chinese in Malaysia today in relation to education and employment continues though given their elitist status due to economic success in business and commerce protects them. However, in 1998 after the economic crash of 1997, only one Chinese Malaysian was scapegoated and murdered, while many Chinese working class people were murdered in Indonesia their homes and businesses were destroyed. As always it was the working classes who suffered while the wealthy Chinese Indonesians escaped and to the jubilation of the Thai?s had their money transferred to Bangkok banks. > On Dec 21, 2019, at 15:47, J.B. Nicholson via Peace wrote: > > I wrote: >> J.B. Nicholson notes >> [lists.chambana.net was unreachable or returning a 502 error as this set of notes were edited. The notes posted to peace and peace-discuss mailing lists should eventually show up somewhere on these URLs.] >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/ >> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/ > > The web archives are online now so here are the more specific URLs for these notes: > > https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051707.html > https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015514.html > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Mon Dec 23 19:26:09 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 13:26:09 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] US war-making and war-provocations Message-ID: <32E02D76-38E0-4D75-A0AF-3685E105A898@newsfromneptune.com> https://consortiumnews.com/2019/12/21/pepe-escobar-you-say-you-want-a-russian-revolution/ From carl at newsfromneptune.com Mon Dec 23 19:49:12 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 13:49:12 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: In reference to NFN: Bernie the anti-war candidate? I don't think so. References: <75C0B345-43B3-4254-AF80-0BCA90A13D1E@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: > Begin forwarded message: > > From: "C. G. Estabrook" > Subject: Re: In reference to NFN: Bernie the anti-war candidate? I don't think so. > Date: December 23, 2019 at 1:47:22 PM CST > To: Karen Aram > Cc: Peace , peace-discuss at chambana.net, David Green , "C. G. Estabrook" , "J.B. Nicholson" > > https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/12/no-bernies-not-anti-war/ > > >> On Dec 23, 2019, at 1:16 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >> >> This from Politico, a conservative article but there are many other websites, articles available discussing Bernies ?voting record.? Yes, he did say the right thing about Bolivia, it?s over, the US was successful in our efforts at regime change, privatization, massacres of the indigenous peoples so one can say anything about it. But, Venezuela has yet to be accomplished, look at what Bernie is saying there. He supports USG position, that is imperialism. >> >> THE FRIDAY COVER >> >> Read more >> >> Bill Scher is a contributing editor to Politico Magazine, and co-host of the Bloggingheads.tv show ?The DMZ.? >> Bernie Sanders? top foreign policy adviser has an unusual r?sum? for someone in that role. Matt Duss comes from the progressive blogosphere, not the foreign service. He worked for Ralph Nader?s 2000 presidential campaign, and he joked after it was over that he and his colleagues will ?get jobs in the Bush administration.? As The Nation?s David Klion wrote earlier this year, ?No one besides Sanders has hired an adviser with such a clear track record of defying the Blob??the mass of conventional thinkers in Washington?s foreign policy establishment. >> >> But Duss sounded quite Blob-like earlier this month when I asked him what Sanders would do if he faced a humanitarian crisis such as imminent genocide. Would a President Sanders consider using American military force without the support of Congress and the broader public? ?If there?s a situation in which, as president, Senator Sanders feels that he needs to act,? said Duss, ?and he?s spoken to the experts, and he?s engaged with as many people as he possibly could, and comes to that decision point, he?s going to do what he feels is right.? >> >> >> Coming from the foreign policy adviser to any other candidate, this statement wouldn?t raise an eyebrow. But Sanders has tried to position himself as a radical alternative to all his hawkish rivals in both parties. In a recent online video, he made ?no apologies? for his ?opposition to war.? In a major address before his official entry into the presidential race, he pledged to turbocharge American diplomacy with the help of a ?global progressive movement.? In Congress, he has led the effort to end all U.S. involvement in the Yemen civil war, insisting that Congress must take back from the president its ?constitutional responsibility over war making.? After running in 2016 on reshaping the American economy, it seems Sanders has now given himself the even more audacious task of dismantling the military-industrial complex. >> >> And yet, as Duss? comment indicates, Sanders is not a pacifist and his opposition to war is not absolute. He has supported military operations on humanitarian grounds. He?s campaigning as a peace candidate, but it?s not implausible that he could end up a war president. >> >> During the 2020 campaign, Sanders has talked about foreign policy far more than any other major presidential candidate?even Joe Biden, whose foreign policy experience is unmatched in the Democratic field. That?s a shift from Sanders? 2016 bid, when he campaigned heavily on his democratic-socialist domestic agenda, leaving himself vulnerable to charges he wasn?t prepared to be commander in chief. Before beginning his second presidential run, Sanders laid out a foreign policy vision that is nothing less than transformational?rejecting the entire ?mindset? that ?military force is decisive in a way that diplomacy is not.? When MoveOn.org invited presidential candidates to share a single ?big idea? at a California forum last month, Sanders did not highlight single-payer health insurance, his signature domestic policy proposal. He chose ?ending endless wars.? >> >> But despite Sanders? bold foreign policy principles, the complete picture of how a President Sanders would exercise his powers overseas remains blurry. Not only has Sanders neglected to offer much policy detail for how he would achieve his peacemaking objectives, but he also has failed to explain how his antiwar rhetoric squares with some of his past positions. Most notably, he supported the 1999 American bombing operation in Kosovo. Even though Sanders has criticized the high cost of the F-35 fighter jet program, he supported the Air Force?s decision to base some of those F-35s in his home state of Vermont, protecting more than 1,000 jobs tied to the military-industrial complex. >> >> Sanders supported what became known as the Global War on Terror at the outset, voting to authorize military force against ?those nations, organizations or persons? connected to the attacks of September 11, 2001. Like many of his fellow Democrats, he has since become a skeptic of the forever war. In a 2017 address at Westminster College in Missouri, the site of Winston Churchill?s 1946 ?Iron Curtain? speech, Sanders condemned the strategic framework of the war on terrorism as ?a disaster? because of its "heavy-handed military approach,? and singled out drone strikes for their ?high civilian casualties.? And Sanders has long expressed his unease with giving a president too much unilateral authority to deploy weapons of war. He often advocates for a strict interpretation of the War Powers Resolution, the post-Vietnam law that denies the president the power to engage in more than 60 days of military ?hostilities? without formal congressional authorization. >> >> ADVERTISING >> >> >> >> >> Yet during his 2016 presidential campaign, Sanders? counterterrorism rhetoric was more muted. He said on multiple occasions that while errant drone strikes are ?terrible? and ?counterproductive,? drones have also ?done some good things,? and ?taken out people who should be taken out.? And so, he said, he would continue to use drones, ?very selectively and effectively.? When asked about that shift in tone by Sanders since 2016, Duss argued that President Donald Trump has ?dialed up? the use of drones. How exactly Sanders would dial it down is not yet clear. Duss informed me Sanders would initiate ?a comprehensive review? of American counterterrorism policy?after his inauguration. >> >> Sanders is hardly the first candidate in history to punt the specifics on a complicated, controversial matter to some sort of blue-ribbon commission. But Sanders has been deferring to such a future commission for years, since his 2016 campaign. Three years later, his attacks on the counterterrorism status quo have dramatically intensified, but he appears to have failed to come up with an alternative strategy. >> >> What does Sanders actually believe? >> >> *** >> >> Rhetorically, at least, Sanders? critique of the Global War on Terror resembles the Republican attacks on Obamacare: Promise to ?repeal and replace? it without having the ?replace? part figured out. >> >> >> In fairness to Sanders, he has never pretended there are easy answers to complex foreign policy challenges. In a 1999 town hall, then-Congressman Sanders described the Kosovo crisis as ?enormously complicated, enormously difficult.? In a 2015 primary debate with Hillary Clinton, he said Syria ?is a complicated issue. I don't think anyone has a magical solution.? In 2016, in an interview with the Los Angeles Times, Sanders said pressuring Middle Eastern regimes to do more on counterterrorism, was ?not easy.? This year, while speaking to a reporter for The New Yorker about foreign policy, he sounded positively daunted: ?Look, this is very difficult stuff ? I most certainly do not believe that I have all the answers, or that this is easy stuff. I mean, you?re dealing with so much?my God.? >> >> Voters may find this shocking bit of honesty for a presidential candidate either refreshing or unsettling. Perhaps more wannabe presidents should have the humility to acknowledge that they don?t know everything. But maybe that humility should be reflected in a realistic, detailed foreign policy agenda. >> >> Sanders made that point himself in the 2016 primary, when he chided Hillary Clinton, and in effect, the Blob, about the decision to remove Moammar Gadhafi from power in Libya: ?Regime change is easy; getting rid of dictators is easy,? he said. ?But before you do that, you've got to think about what happens the day after.? >> >> Back in April 1999, then-Congressman Sanders was on the House floor giving a three-minute speech about the military intervention taking place in what was then known as Yugoslavia. In the first 90 seconds, Sanders gave the familiar argument that military operations?like that one?without congressional authorization are unconstitutional. But for the second half of his remarks, he shifted his focus. Without expending a word to satisfy his own constitutional concerns, Sanders defended the NATO bombing as necessary on moral grounds to stop ?ethnic cleansing,? the war?s euphemism for atrocities targeting ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. >> >> The Kosovo operation is a 20-year old episode, but it?s a rare example of Sanders openly, if not quite transparently, grappling with his conflicting principles?and presidents often have to do that. Sanders voted for a resolution, preferred by the Clinton administration, which ?authorized? the operation without codifying that the authorization was legally required under the War Powers Act. (Sanders, and nearly all of his colleagues, voted against a formal declaration of war.) And when even that resolution failed in the House on a tie vote, Sanders did not insist the operation end on the basis of its constitutional illegitimacy. Five days later at a Montpelier, Vermont, town hall, he passionately supported the bombing. >> >> >> Twenty years later, when it comes to defending NATO allies if attacked, the Blob will be happy to know Duss was unequivocal that Sanders would respond militarily: ?Shared security is something Senator Sanders strongly believes in, and the principle of collective defense is at the core of NATO's founding treaty. It's important for friends and foes alike to have no doubt that the United States will honor this commitment." >> >> Beyond that, Duss told me that cases of ?genocide or of mass atrocities? would ?weigh heavily? on the mind of Sanders as president. And he laid out the questions Sanders would pose: ?Does this meet the level of an emergency, an imminent atrocity? Does it immediately impact the security of the people of the United States? And if it doesn?t, does that imminent atrocity, rise to the level of a global norm which we have interest in enforcing and upholding? And finally, and very important, what are the chances for creating a better outcome having taken this step of introducing U.S. military forces into the situation?? >> >> These are all essential questions, and they are reassuring to Democratic foreign policy experts, even some progressive ones, who want Sanders to leave the door open for military force. Ploughshares Fund President Joseph Cirincione, an anti-nuclear weapons activist who informally advises Sanders, told me: ?I think Senator Sanders would not hesitate to use military force to defend the country from attack, to defend our vital interests, to prevent atrocities like genocide. But he?s made clear that military force should be the very, very last option.? >> >> For a small but noticeable anti-Bernie strain on the far left, that wiggle room for military strikes makes Sanders a hypocrite. For example, Ajamu Baraka, the last vice presidential nominee for the Green Party, said in an interview that Sanders? openness to military action amounts to ?saying one thing publicly but then appearing to have a different position that is reflected sometimes in his legislative decisions, and I think the Kosovo situation was a very important example of that.? >> >> >> But most of the anti-interventionist left aren?t quibbling about the smattering of past disagreements with Sanders such as Kosovo. They are mostly enthralled at how Sanders? campaign rhetoric is broadening the foreign policy debate. In particular, they are bowled over by how, earlier this year, Sanders used the War Powers Resolution to move a bipartisan bill through Congress demanding Trump end American military involvement in the Yemeni civil war, where the U.S. has supported Saudi Arabia?s intervention. Although the bill was vetoed, the fact that it got to Trump?s desk both legitimized the War Powers Resolution and bolstered Sanders? case that he can get things done in Washington. >> >> Most of the activists with whom I spoke put more emphasis on Yemen than Kosovo when gauging how a President Sanders would involve Congress in his foreign policy. Robert Naiman, policy director at Just Foreign Policy, raved over email: ?Sanders was the first to introduce a privileged resolution invoking the War Powers Resolution to force a vote to end unconstitutional U.S. participation in the war and lead it to completion, passage by Congress. That never happened before in the whole history of the War Powers Resolution since 1973.? >> >> But Sanders? proud defense of his Kosovo stance to his antiwar allies should not be ignored. He thundered at the May 1999 Montpelier town hall: ?What do you do to a war criminal who has led, for the first time in modern history, the organized rape as an agent of war, of tens of thousands of women? What do you do to a butcher who has lined up people and shot them? Do you say to them, ?You have won Mr. Milosevic. We are not going to stand up to you. We are going home??? Sanders once put the end of genocide ahead of a strict adherence to the War Powers Resolution, and his foreign policy adviser has now left the door open to him doing it again as president. >> >> Before President Barack Obama?s 2011 intervention in Libya, another instance of the use of American force to try to stop genocide, Sanders initially indicated support for military action. Sanders co-sponsored a Senate resolution that urged ?the United Nations Security Council to take such further action as may be necessary to protect civilians in Libya from attack, including the possible imposition of a no-fly zone over Libyan territory.? The Security Council did just that, setting in motion a multilateral military operation. >> >> >> Nine days after hostilities began, however, Sanders wasn?t stoutly defending the Libyan operation, as he had with Kosovo. He was betraying squeamishness about how long the operation would last, telling Fox News: ?Everybody understands Gadhafi is a thug and murderer. We want to see him go, but I think in the midst of two wars, I'm not quite sure we need a third war, and I hope the president tells us that our troops will be leaving there, that our military action in Libya will be ending very, very shortly.? After the death of Gadhafi and the subsequent destabilization of Libya, Sanders took a far dimmer view of the operation. He said four years later in a primary debate with Hillary Clinton, ?Yes, we could get rid of Gadhafi, a terrible dictator, but that created a vacuum for ISIS.? >> >> The common thread in Kosovo and Libya was Sanders? impulse to stop genocide, mitigated by his strong desire to limit the duration of any hostilities. If you are mainly concerned about getting bogged down in quagmires, you will be comforted by Sanders? discomfort with prolonged military action. However, those that are more comfortable with direct military action are unnerved that Sanders generally doesn?t talk about the nuances of his views on the campaign trail. >> >> ?If the anti-war rhetoric becomes too unequivocal, a leader may compromise their ability to rally popular support in the event that they judge intervention necessary,? said Suzanne Nossel, a former State Department official in the Obama administration, in an email exchange. ?If Bernie Sanders is serious about leaving himself leeway to act militarily where necessary, it would be useful to articulate that idea to his supporters in the context of the campaign.? >> >> *** >> >> >> Nossel?s concern is indicative of the skepticism Sanders receives from many inside the Blob. While the left loves Sanders? principles and his outsider posture, the Blob worries about his lack of details and experience in crisis situations. Mieke Eoyang, a former congressional staffer who once advised Congresswoman Pat Schroeder and Senator Ted Kennedy on defense issues, argues that Sanders was largely absent from serious legislating about foreign policy matters throughout the bulk of his congressional career. >> >> Now vice president for the National Security Program at the centrist organization Third Way, Eoyang worries that, despite the occasional examples of supporting military force, Sanders possesses ?a real reluctance to use American power.? ?The president has to make choices about how to exercise American power,? she told me, ?and there are serious negative consequences that flow from inaction as well as action. So you have to choose from a bunch of imperfect outcomes. And I have not seen Bernie, over the course of his career, being willing to select from imperfect outcomes.? >> >> But Blob members are not solely fixated on what, and whether, Bernie would bomb. They also question his faith in people-to-people public diplomacy. ?The devil is always in the detail,? warns Bishop Garrison, a former foreign policy adviser on Hillary Clinton?s 2016 presidential campaign who founded the Joseph Rainey Center for Public Policy, a ?post-partisan? think tank. Asked what Sanders? highly ambitious goal of building a ?global progressive movement that speaks to the needs of working people? to counter ?a growing worldwide movement toward authoritarianism, oligarchy and kleptocracy? means in practice, Duss said, ?The goal here is to promote the idea that progressives at the civil society level need to be reaching out, and meeting, and working, and networking and coordinating with each other much more energetically than we have been doing up until now, because we see right-wing forces doing that.? >> >> Duss went on: ?Building a global community is not just about relationships between governments, but it?s about relationships between peoples. As president, he would have a foreign policy that worked to protect political space where civil society groups from different countries under different forms of government can build relationships.? >> >> To Garrison, a veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom with two Bronze Stars, this seemingly heartwarming approach is fraught with danger. ?One could argue you?re talking about interfering with the ongoing political efforts of a society, on a grand and global scale across different sovereign nations. That?s not diplomacy.? While Garrison was supportive of civil society groups that invest in ?local populations,? he worried that Sanders? vision ?sounds like you?re going go in and start an uprising somewhere.? >> >> >> Jonathan Katz, a former State Department official in the Obama administration who has been sounding the alarm about ?democratic backsliding? within the NATO alliance, is more positive about the civil society push, and urged Sanders to show some specific figures for how much money he would ?be willing to put into an effort to promote democracy? abroad. (Duss in turn said it has not been decided yet if a budget proposal, delineating how much money would be cut from the military and redirected elsewhere, would be released during the campaign.) >> >> But Katz, now a senior fellow with the German Marshall Fund, cautioned against a pro-democracy outreach strategy rooted in a left-versus-right framework of the kind that Sanders seems to envision. ?More often than not,? Katz said, ?in the cases of countries where you have democratic backsliding, it?s not because people on the right or the left don?t want democracy. It?s usually a leader that comes in?an oligarch, an authoritarian?that starts to use and manipulate the system for his or her own good, or to benefit a small group around them.? He added, ?Bernie is narrowly pointing to progressives in terms of a global democracy fight. I like the idea of a global democracy fight. But it?s got to be inclusive ? Otherwise, you?re pitting groups against each other, potentially.? >> >> *** >> >> Duss may have given me a Blob-like response when asked about Sanders? criteria for going to war, but I would not suggest he?s become a card-carrying member. When you talk to Duss, he?s far more likely to say ?military violence? than ?military power.? He told me Sanders? counterterrorism strategy review would ?take a much more aggressive look at how we are using military violence.? Such language doesn?t preclude the use of the military. But Duss, and more important, Sanders, routinely send the signal that they harbor an extreme distaste for the use of force. >> >> Even so, Sanders has views about military intervention that are more complicated than his campaign rhetoric. And that may explain why he hasn?t delved into much detail about foreign policy. Once a candidate wades into the sea of international crises and hypothetical threats, eventually the possibility of military force arises. Any discussion of that risks making Sanders look more like a conventional commander in chief than a revolutionary one. >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From naiman.uiuc at gmail.com Tue Dec 24 09:50:39 2019 From: naiman.uiuc at gmail.com (Robert Naiman) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 04:50:39 -0500 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: In reference to NFN: Bernie the anti-war candidate? I don't think so. In-Reply-To: References: <75C0B345-43B3-4254-AF80-0BCA90A13D1E@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: I wouldn't argue that Bernie is an anti-war candidate in the same sense that Tulsi Gabbard is. Clearly, he's not. When Bernie has the floor, it's not his top priority to talk about. He wants to talk about Medicare for All, tuition free public college, climate change, income inequality, before he wants to talk about ending wars. We saw in the debates how Bernie let Cory Booker talk about ending U.S. participation in the Saudi war in Yemen more than Bernie did, even though it's Bernie's issue, Bernie led the fight in Congress to stop U.S. participation in the war. He could have said: "I wrote the damn bill!" He didn't, because occupying political space on this front is not high on his to-do list, because he thinks it's not getting him a lot of votes in the upcoming primaries and caucuses compared to the things he wants to talk about. He's the most popular candidate among Latino Democrats now, the most popular candidate among nonwhite voters, according to recent polls, in his mind he didn't get there by talking about ending wars. What makes Bernie interesting from an anti-war perspective compared to Tulsi Gabbard is the very real possibility that Bernie might win and become the next President of the United States. He's a little ahead in New Hampshire, a little behind in Iowa, a little behind in South Carolina. It's plausible that he could win the first four states. It's plausible that he could win California. He's plausible that he could win the Democratic nomination. It's plausible that he could be the next President of the United States. And this would have a tremendous impact on the amount of war we have, saving many lives from cruel, unjust, and unnecessary deaths. It would end U.S. participation in the Saudi war in Yemen. It would end the war in Afghanistan. It would get us out of Syria. One of the cruel ironies of U.S. foreign policy is that often the Americans who care about it the most have the most pro-war views. As President, Bernie's going to end wars and prevent new ones, in part, because he wants to focus on other things, like universal health care, canceling student debt, addressing climate change. On Mon, Dec 23, 2019 at 2:49 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > > Begin forwarded message: > > *From: *"C. G. Estabrook" > *Subject: **Re: In reference to NFN: Bernie the anti-war candidate? I > don't think so.* > *Date: *December 23, 2019 at 1:47:22 PM CST > *To: *Karen Aram > *Cc: *Peace , peace-discuss at chambana.net, David Green > , "C. G. Estabrook" , > "J.B. Nicholson" > > https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/12/no-bernies-not-anti-war/ > > > On Dec 23, 2019, at 1:16 PM, Karen Aram wrote: > > This from Politico, a conservative article but there are many other > websites, articles available discussing Bernies ?voting record.? Yes, he > did say the right thing about Bolivia, it?s over, the US was successful in > our efforts at regime change, privatization, massacres of the indigenous > peoples so one can say anything about it. But, Venezuela has yet to be > accomplished, look at what Bernie is saying there. He supports USG > position, that is imperialism. > > THE FRIDAY COVER > > Read more > > Bill Scher is a contributing editor to Politico Magazine, and co-host of > the Bloggingheads.tv show ?The DMZ.? > Bernie Sanders? top foreign policy adviser has an unusual r?sum? for > someone in that role. Matt Duss comes from the progressive blogosphere, not > the foreign service. He worked for Ralph Nader?s 2000 presidential > campaign, and he joked after it was over that he and his colleagues will > ?get jobs in the Bush administration.? As The Nation?s David Klion wrote > earlier this year, ?No one besides Sanders has hired an adviser with such a > clear track record of defying the Blob??the mass of conventional thinkers > in Washington?s foreign policy establishment. > > But Duss sounded quite Blob-like earlier this month when I asked him what > Sanders would do if he faced a humanitarian crisis such as imminent > genocide. Would a President Sanders consider using American military force > without the support of Congress and the broader public? ?If there?s a > situation in which, as president, Senator Sanders feels that he needs to > act,? said Duss, ?and he?s spoken to the experts, and he?s engaged with as > many people as he possibly could, and comes to that decision point, he?s > going to do what he feels is right.? > > > Coming from the foreign policy adviser to any other candidate, this > statement wouldn?t raise an eyebrow. But Sanders has tried to position > himself as a radical alternative to all his hawkish rivals in both parties. > In a recent online video, he made ?no apologies? for his ?opposition to > war.? In a major address before his official entry into the presidential > race, he pledged to turbocharge American diplomacy with the help of a > ?global progressive movement.? In Congress, he has led the effort to end > all U.S. involvement in the Yemen civil war, insisting that Congress must > take back from the president its ?constitutional responsibility over war > making.? After running in 2016 on reshaping the American economy, it seems > Sanders has now given himself the even more audacious task of dismantling > the military-industrial complex. > > And yet, as Duss? comment indicates, Sanders is not a pacifist and his > opposition to war is not absolute. He has supported military operations on > humanitarian grounds. He?s campaigning as a peace candidate, but it?s not > implausible that he could end up a war president. > > During the 2020 campaign, Sanders has talked about foreign policy far more > than any other major presidential candidate?even Joe Biden, whose foreign > policy experience is unmatched in the Democratic field. That?s a shift from > Sanders? 2016 bid, when he campaigned heavily on his democratic-socialist > domestic agenda, leaving himself vulnerable to charges he wasn?t prepared > to be commander in chief. Before beginning his second presidential run, > Sanders laid out a foreign policy vision that is nothing less than > transformational?rejecting the entire ?mindset? that ?military force is > decisive in a way that diplomacy is not.? When MoveOn.org invited > presidential candidates to share a single ?big idea? at a California forum > last month, Sanders did not highlight single-payer health insurance, his > signature domestic policy proposal. He chose ?ending endless wars.? > > But despite Sanders? bold foreign policy principles, the complete picture > of how a President Sanders would exercise his powers overseas remains > blurry. Not only has Sanders neglected to offer much policy detail for how > he would achieve his peacemaking objectives, but he also has failed to > explain how his antiwar rhetoric squares with some of his past positions. > Most notably, he supported the 1999 American bombing operation in Kosovo. > Even though Sanders has criticized the high cost of the F-35 fighter jet > program, he supported the Air Force?s decision to base some of those F-35s > in his home state of Vermont, protecting more than 1,000 jobs tied to the > military-industrial complex. > > Sanders supported what became known as the Global War on Terror at the > outset, voting to authorize military force against ?those nations, > organizations or persons? connected to the attacks of September 11, 2001. > Like many of his fellow Democrats, he has since become a skeptic of the > forever war. In a 2017 address at Westminster College in Missouri, the site > of Winston Churchill?s 1946 ?Iron Curtain? speech, Sanders condemned the > strategic framework of the war on terrorism as ?a disaster? because of its > "heavy-handed military approach,? and singled out drone strikes for their > ?high civilian casualties.? And Sanders has long expressed his unease with > giving a president too much unilateral authority to deploy weapons of war. > He often advocates for a strict interpretation of the War Powers > Resolution, the post-Vietnam law that denies the president the power to > engage in more than 60 days of military ?hostilities? without formal > congressional authorization. > > ADVERTISING > > > > > Yet during his 2016 presidential campaign, Sanders? counterterrorism > rhetoric was more muted. He said on multiple occasions that while errant > drone strikes are ?terrible? and ?counterproductive,? drones have also > ?done some good things,? and ?taken out people who should be taken out.? > And so, he said, he would continue to use drones, ?very selectively and > effectively.? When asked about that shift in tone by Sanders since 2016, > Duss argued that President Donald Trump has ?dialed up? the use of drones. > How exactly Sanders would dial it down is not yet clear. Duss informed me > Sanders would initiate ?a comprehensive review? of American > counterterrorism policy?after his inauguration. > > Sanders is hardly the first candidate in history to punt the specifics on > a complicated, controversial matter to some sort of blue-ribbon commission. > But Sanders has been deferring to such a future commission for years, since > his 2016 campaign. Three years later, his attacks on the counterterrorism > status quo have dramatically intensified, but he appears to have failed to > come up with an alternative strategy. > > What does Sanders actually believe? > > *** > > Rhetorically, at least, Sanders? critique of the Global War on Terror > resembles the Republican attacks on Obamacare: Promise to ?repeal and > replace? it without having the ?replace? part figured out. > > > In fairness to Sanders, he has never pretended there are easy answers to > complex foreign policy challenges. In a 1999 town hall, then-Congressman > Sanders described the Kosovo crisis as ?enormously complicated, enormously > difficult.? In a 2015 primary debate with Hillary Clinton, he said Syria > ?is a complicated issue. I don't think anyone has a magical solution.? In > 2016, in an interview with the Los Angeles Times, Sanders said pressuring > Middle Eastern regimes to do more on counterterrorism, was ?not easy.? This > year, while speaking to a reporter for The New Yorker about foreign policy, > he sounded positively daunted: ?Look, this is very difficult stuff ? I most > certainly do not believe that I have all the answers, or that this is easy > stuff. I mean, you?re dealing with so much?my God.? > > Voters may find this shocking bit of honesty for a presidential candidate > either refreshing or unsettling. Perhaps more wannabe presidents should > have the humility to acknowledge that they don?t know everything. But maybe > that humility should be reflected in a realistic, detailed foreign policy > agenda. > > Sanders made that point himself in the 2016 primary, when he chided > Hillary Clinton, and in effect, the Blob, about the decision to remove > Moammar Gadhafi from power in Libya: ?Regime change is easy; getting rid of > dictators is easy,? he said. ?But before you do that, you've got to think > about what happens the day after.? > > Back in April 1999, then-Congressman Sanders was on the House floor giving > a three-minute speech about the military intervention taking place in what > was then known as Yugoslavia. In the first 90 seconds, Sanders gave the > familiar argument that military operations?like that one?without > congressional authorization are unconstitutional. But for the second half > of his remarks, he shifted his focus. Without expending a word to satisfy > his own constitutional concerns, Sanders defended the NATO bombing as > necessary on moral grounds to stop ?ethnic cleansing,? the war?s euphemism > for atrocities targeting ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. > > The Kosovo operation is a 20-year old episode, but it?s a rare example of > Sanders openly, if not quite transparently, grappling with his conflicting > principles?and presidents often have to do that. Sanders voted for a > resolution, preferred by the Clinton administration, which ?authorized? the > operation without codifying that the authorization was legally required > under the War Powers Act. (Sanders, and nearly all of his colleagues, voted > against a formal declaration of war.) And when even that resolution failed > in the House on a tie vote, Sanders did not insist the operation end on the > basis of its constitutional illegitimacy. Five days later at a Montpelier, > Vermont, town hall, he passionately supported the bombing. > > > Twenty years later, when it comes to defending NATO allies if attacked, > the Blob will be happy to know Duss was unequivocal that Sanders would > respond militarily: ?Shared security is something Senator Sanders strongly > believes in, and the principle of collective defense is at the core of > NATO's founding treaty. It's important for friends and foes alike to have > no doubt that the United States will honor this commitment." > > Beyond that, Duss told me that cases of ?genocide or of mass atrocities? > would ?weigh heavily? on the mind of Sanders as president. And he laid out > the questions Sanders would pose: ?Does this meet the level of an > emergency, an imminent atrocity? Does it immediately impact the security of > the people of the United States? And if it doesn?t, does that imminent > atrocity, rise to the level of a global norm which we have interest in > enforcing and upholding? And finally, and very important, what are the > chances for creating a better outcome having taken this step of introducing > U.S. military forces into the situation?? > > These are all essential questions, and they are reassuring to Democratic > foreign policy experts, even some progressive ones, who want Sanders to > leave the door open for military force. Ploughshares Fund President Joseph > Cirincione, an anti-nuclear weapons activist who informally advises > Sanders, told me: ?I think Senator Sanders would not hesitate to use > military force to defend the country from attack, to defend our vital > interests, to prevent atrocities like genocide. But he?s made clear that > military force should be the very, very last option.? > > For a small but noticeable anti-Bernie strain on the far left, that wiggle > room for military strikes makes Sanders a hypocrite. For example, Ajamu > Baraka, the last vice presidential nominee for the Green Party, said in an > interview that Sanders? openness to military action amounts to ?saying one > thing publicly but then appearing to have a different position that is > reflected sometimes in his legislative decisions, and I think the Kosovo > situation was a very important example of that.? > > > But most of the anti-interventionist left aren?t quibbling about the > smattering of past disagreements with Sanders such as Kosovo. They are > mostly enthralled at how Sanders? campaign rhetoric is broadening the > foreign policy debate. In particular, they are bowled over by how, earlier > this year, Sanders used the War Powers Resolution to move a bipartisan bill > through Congress demanding Trump end American military involvement in the > Yemeni civil war, where the U.S. has supported Saudi Arabia?s intervention. > Although the bill was vetoed, the fact that it got to Trump?s desk both > legitimized the War Powers Resolution and bolstered Sanders? case that he > can get things done in Washington. > > Most of the activists with whom I spoke put more emphasis on Yemen than > Kosovo when gauging how a President Sanders would involve Congress in his > foreign policy. Robert Naiman, policy director at Just Foreign Policy, > raved over email: ?Sanders was the first to introduce a privileged > resolution invoking the War Powers Resolution to force a vote to end > unconstitutional U.S. participation in the war and lead it to completion, > passage by Congress. That never happened before in the whole history of the > War Powers Resolution since 1973.? > > But Sanders? proud defense of his Kosovo stance to his antiwar allies > should not be ignored. He thundered at the May 1999 Montpelier town hall: > ?What do you do to a war criminal who has led, for the first time in modern > history, the organized rape as an agent of war, of tens of thousands of > women? What do you do to a butcher who has lined up people and shot them? > Do you say to them, ?You have won Mr. Milosevic. We are not going to stand > up to you. We are going home??? Sanders once put the end of genocide ahead > of a strict adherence to the War Powers Resolution, and his foreign policy > adviser has now left the door open to him doing it again as president. > > Before President Barack Obama?s 2011 intervention in Libya, another > instance of the use of American force to try to stop genocide, Sanders > initially indicated support for military action. Sanders co-sponsored a > Senate resolution that urged ?the United Nations Security Council to take > such further action as may be necessary to protect civilians in Libya from > attack, including the possible imposition of a no-fly zone over Libyan > territory.? The Security Council did just that, setting in motion a > multilateral military operation. > > > Nine days after hostilities began, however, Sanders wasn?t stoutly > defending the Libyan operation, as he had with Kosovo. He was betraying > squeamishness about how long the operation would last, telling Fox News: > ?Everybody understands Gadhafi is a thug and murderer. We want to see him > go, but I think in the midst of two wars, I'm not quite sure we need a > third war, and I hope the president tells us that our troops will be > leaving there, that our military action in Libya will be ending very, very > shortly.? After the death of Gadhafi and the subsequent destabilization of > Libya, Sanders took a far dimmer view of the operation. He said four years > later in a primary debate with Hillary Clinton, ?Yes, we could get rid of > Gadhafi, a terrible dictator, but that created a vacuum for ISIS.? > > The common thread in Kosovo and Libya was Sanders? impulse to stop > genocide, mitigated by his strong desire to limit the duration of any > hostilities. If you are mainly concerned about getting bogged down in > quagmires, you will be comforted by Sanders? discomfort with prolonged > military action. However, those that are more comfortable with direct > military action are unnerved that Sanders generally doesn?t talk about the > nuances of his views on the campaign trail. > > ?If the anti-war rhetoric becomes too unequivocal, a leader may compromise > their ability to rally popular support in the event that they judge > intervention necessary,? said Suzanne Nossel, a former State Department > official in the Obama administration, in an email exchange. ?If Bernie > Sanders is serious about leaving himself leeway to act militarily where > necessary, it would be useful to articulate that idea to his supporters in > the context of the campaign.? > > *** > > > Nossel?s concern is indicative of the skepticism Sanders receives from > many inside the Blob. While the left loves Sanders? principles and his > outsider posture, the Blob worries about his lack of details and experience > in crisis situations. Mieke Eoyang, a former congressional staffer who once > advised Congresswoman Pat Schroeder and Senator Ted Kennedy on defense > issues, argues that Sanders was largely absent from serious legislating > about foreign policy matters throughout the bulk of his congressional > career. > > Now vice president for the National Security Program at the centrist > organization Third Way, Eoyang worries that, despite the occasional > examples of supporting military force, Sanders possesses ?a real reluctance > to use American power.? ?The president has to make choices about how to > exercise American power,? she told me, ?and there are serious negative > consequences that flow from inaction as well as action. So you have to > choose from a bunch of imperfect outcomes. And I have not seen Bernie, over > the course of his career, being willing to select from imperfect outcomes.? > > But Blob members are not solely fixated on what, and whether, Bernie would > bomb. They also question his faith in people-to-people public diplomacy. > ?The devil is always in the detail,? warns Bishop Garrison, a former > foreign policy adviser on Hillary Clinton?s 2016 presidential campaign who > founded the Joseph Rainey Center for Public Policy, a ?post-partisan? think > tank. Asked what Sanders? highly ambitious goal of building a ?global > progressive movement that speaks to the needs of working people? to counter > ?a growing worldwide movement toward authoritarianism, oligarchy and > kleptocracy? means in practice, Duss said, ?The goal here is to promote the > idea that progressives at the civil society level need to be reaching out, > and meeting, and working, and networking and coordinating with each other > much more energetically than we have been doing up until now, because we > see right-wing forces doing that.? > > Duss went on: ?Building a global community is not just about relationships > between governments, but it?s about relationships between peoples. As > president, he would have a foreign policy that worked to protect political > space where civil society groups from different countries under different > forms of government can build relationships.? > > To Garrison, a veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom with two Bronze Stars, > this seemingly heartwarming approach is fraught with danger. ?One could > argue you?re talking about interfering with the ongoing political efforts > of a society, on a grand and global scale across different sovereign > nations. That?s not diplomacy.? While Garrison was supportive of civil > society groups that invest in ?local populations,? he worried that Sanders? > vision ?sounds like you?re going go in and start an uprising somewhere.? > > > Jonathan Katz, a former State Department official in the Obama > administration who has been sounding the alarm about ?democratic > backsliding? within the NATO alliance, is more positive about the civil > society push, and urged Sanders to show some specific figures for how much > money he would ?be willing to put into an effort to promote democracy? > abroad. (Duss in turn said it has not been decided yet if a budget > proposal, delineating how much money would be cut from the military and > redirected elsewhere, would be released during the campaign.) > > But Katz, now a senior fellow with the German Marshall Fund, cautioned > against a pro-democracy outreach strategy rooted in a left-versus-right > framework of the kind that Sanders seems to envision. ?More often than > not,? Katz said, ?in the cases of countries where you have democratic > backsliding, it?s not because people on the right or the left don?t want > democracy. It?s usually a leader that comes in?an oligarch, an > authoritarian?that starts to use and manipulate the system for his or her > own good, or to benefit a small group around them.? He added, ?Bernie is > narrowly pointing to progressives in terms of a global democracy fight. I > like the idea of a global democracy fight. But it?s got to be inclusive ? > Otherwise, you?re pitting groups against each other, potentially.? > > *** > > Duss may have given me a Blob-like response when asked about Sanders? > criteria for going to war, but I would not suggest he?s become a > card-carrying member. When you talk to Duss, he?s far more likely to say > ?military violence? than ?military power.? He told me Sanders? > counterterrorism strategy review would ?take a much more aggressive look at > how we are using military violence.? Such language doesn?t preclude the use > of the military. But Duss, and more important, Sanders, routinely send the > signal that they harbor an extreme distaste for the use of force. > > Even so, Sanders has views about military intervention that are more > complicated than his campaign rhetoric. And that may explain why he hasn?t > delved into much detail about foreign policy. Once a candidate wades into > the sea of international crises and hypothetical threats, eventually the > possibility of military force arises. Any discussion of that risks making > Sanders look more like a conventional commander in chief than a > revolutionary one. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Tue Dec 24 23:55:46 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 17:55:46 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] FW: [Peace] In reference to NFN: Bernie the anti-war candidate? I don't think so. References: <75C0B345-43B3-4254-AF80-0BCA90A13D1E@newsfromneptune.com> <312B7050-E0A2-4D83-858C-14755222E1D9@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <00a301d5bab5$a95fc350$fc1f49f0$@comcast.net> -----Original Message----- From: David Johnson [mailto:davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 5:55 PM To: 'Karen Aram'; 'Brussel, Morton K' Cc: 'C. G. Estabrook'; 'J.B. Nicholson'; 'Peace'; 'C. G. Estabrook'; 'peace-discuss at chambana.net' Subject: RE: [Peace] In reference to NFN: Bernie the anti-war candidate? I don't think so. " It will have to be the younger generation, as most of us older folks who?ve tried and failed no longer have the energy. " Indeed Karen ! I know I can't run as fast nor am I as strong and flexible as I was just ten years ago. But everyone can contribute something according to their abilities. David J. -----Original Message----- From: Peace [mailto:peace-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Karen Aram via Peace Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 12:24 PM To: Brussel, Morton K Cc: C. G. Estabrook; J.B. Nicholson; Peace; C. G. Estabrook; peace-discuss at chambana.net Subject: Re: [Peace] In reference to NFN: Bernie the anti-war candidate? I don't think so. Mort As they say, ?hope springs eternal.? However, I go along with Chris Hedges on this one, what we are seeing is ?The End of Empire.? and if Bernie gets the nomination and isn?t side stepped this time, we are looking at him winning. Bernie?s running mate, a female, will be the actual winner. K. Harris is unlikely, Elizabeth Warren maybe, hopefully not. Tulsi quite possibly. Team Bernie and Tulsi, offers hope, and keeps the people home and focused on electoral politics. The alternative is more of Trump. If pressure is applied we can scare our Representatives into doing some things, like picking a popular candidate for the Supreme Ct., as opposed to the horrible one we have under Trump. Pressure coming from the streets in 1968 prevented escalation of the war in Vietnam, and encouraged Johnson not to run for election, but it didn?t end it. Nor did it prevent the destruction of Cambodia and Laos. Nixon placated us by implementing the EPA, which like SS has been whittled away, they will throw us a few bones which will keep the comfortable from taking notice of those who are suffering. There are a few things that might be initiated to keep us content, and off the streets, but under our current system we will continue the downward plunge to oblivion, whether due to poverty, rising fascism, global warming, environmental destruction or WW3 with potential nuclear war. These are all fears not to be rejected. Many will recoil from my message of doom and gloom, but so many peoples survival depends upon pressure being applied now, in the streets, and it will take masses across the nation. By ?in the streets? I?m referring to strikes, sit downs, civil resistance, as well as protests. It will have to be the younger generation, as most of us older folks who?ve tried and failed no longer have the energy. > On Dec 24, 2019, at 09:43, Brussel, Morton K wrote: > > I?ll go along with what you write here. But to be a realist?god forbid? in the current situation, it is clear that of all the candidates for 2020, Bernie, as disappointing, and worse, as he has been on foreign policy and military/security budgets in the past, is the best chance to move policies away from even worse than we have at present; he?s better than Obama was in 2012 on almost all issues, and more promising than all the other candidates of the two dominant parties, Tulsi excepted? Far from ideal, hatefull with regard to Venezuela, for example. Hope springs eternal, especially among the young! Another point: Much of the criticism cited in these recent pieces happened many years ago; Is it just possible that he has turned a corner, that he has come to some new understanding? Has age made him wiser, less vulnerable? One has to know his mind, and I don?t. Politicians invariably compromise under electoral and other pressures, but the nature and degree of their compromises determine how history evaluates them. > > The arguments that we need movements, not electoral politics, in unexceptionable for me, but don?t apply to the actual here-and-now conjuncture, for many reasons mostly related to power structures? media, financial, corporate, religious?, military?. . If things get worse, will it be better? > > I hope Sanders gets the Dem nomination, but have little xpectation that he will. > >> On Dec 23, 2019, at 2:12 PM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >> >> Excellent article Carl. >> >> We like what Bernie has said about the economy, and that he inspired many young people to embrace socialism as a result. I love him for it, and yes compared to all other candidates the Democrats have to offer, he is the best. >> >> However, reform isn?t the answer, I don?t blame people for wanting to support him, he offers hope, but hope that is unrealistic given the powers that control both branches of our one Party system of capitalism. >> >> I thought Obama was the anti-war candidate, based upon the speech he made, I won?t be fooled again. >> >> >>> On Dec 23, 2019, at 11:47, C. G. Estabrook wrote: >>> >>> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/12/no-bernies-not-anti-war/ >>> >>> >>>> On Dec 23, 2019, at 1:16 PM, Karen Aram wrote: >>>> >>>> This from Politico, a conservative article but there are many other websites, articles available discussing Bernies ?voting record.? Yes, he did say the right thing about Bolivia, it?s over, the US was successful in our efforts at regime change, privatization, massacres of the indigenous peoples so one can say anything about it. But, Venezuela has yet to be accomplished, look at what Bernie is saying there. He supports USG position, that is imperialism. >>>> >>>> THE FRIDAY COVER >>>> >>>> Read more >>>> >>>> Bill Scher is a contributing editor to Politico Magazine, and co-host of the Bloggingheads.tv show ?The DMZ.? >>>> Bernie Sanders? top foreign policy adviser has an unusual r?sum? for someone in that role. Matt Duss comes from the progressive blogosphere, not the foreign service. He worked for Ralph Nader?s 2000 presidential campaign, and he joked after it was over that he and his colleagues will ?get jobs in the Bush administration.? As The Nation?s David Klion wrote earlier this year, ?No one besides Sanders has hired an adviser with such a clear track record of defying the Blob??the mass of conventional thinkers in Washington?s foreign policy establishment. >>>> >>>> But Duss sounded quite Blob-like earlier this month when I asked him what Sanders would do if he faced a humanitarian crisis such as imminent genocide. Would a President Sanders consider using American military force without the support of Congress and the broader public? ?If there?s a situation in which, as president, Senator Sanders feels that he needs to act,? said Duss, ?and he?s spoken to the experts, and he?s engaged with as many people as he possibly could, and comes to that decision point, he?s going to do what he feels is right.? >>>> >>>> >>>> Coming from the foreign policy adviser to any other candidate, this statement wouldn?t raise an eyebrow. But Sanders has tried to position himself as a radical alternative to all his hawkish rivals in both parties. In a recent online video, he made ?no apologies? for his ?opposition to war.? In a major address before his official entry into the presidential race, he pledged to turbocharge American diplomacy with the help of a ?global progressive movement.? In Congress, he has led the effort to end all U.S. involvement in the Yemen civil war, insisting that Congress must take back from the president its ?constitutional responsibility over war making.? After running in 2016 on reshaping the American economy, it seems Sanders has now given himself the even more audacious task of dismantling the military-industrial complex. >>>> >>>> And yet, as Duss? comment indicates, Sanders is not a pacifist and his opposition to war is not absolute. He has supported military operations on humanitarian grounds. He?s campaigning as a peace candidate, but it?s not implausible that he could end up a war president. >>>> >>>> During the 2020 campaign, Sanders has talked about foreign policy far more than any other major presidential candidate?even Joe Biden, whose foreign policy experience is unmatched in the Democratic field. That?s a shift from Sanders? 2016 bid, when he campaigned heavily on his democratic-socialist domestic agenda, leaving himself vulnerable to charges he wasn?t prepared to be commander in chief. Before beginning his second presidential run, Sanders laid out a foreign policy vision that is nothing less than transformational?rejecting the entire ?mindset? that ?military force is decisive in a way that diplomacy is not.? When MoveOn.org invited presidential candidates to share a single ?big idea? at a California forum last month, Sanders did not highlight single-payer health insurance, his signature domestic policy proposal. He chose ?ending endless wars.? >>>> >>>> But despite Sanders? bold foreign policy principles, the complete picture of how a President Sanders would exercise his powers overseas remains blurry. Not only has Sanders neglected to offer much policy detail for how he would achieve his peacemaking objectives, but he also has failed to explain how his antiwar rhetoric squares with some of his past positions. Most notably, he supported the 1999 American bombing operation in Kosovo. Even though Sanders has criticized the high cost of the F-35 fighter jet program, he supported the Air Force?s decision to base some of those F-35s in his home state of Vermont, protecting more than 1,000 jobs tied to the military-industrial complex. >>>> >>>> Sanders supported what became known as the Global War on Terror at the outset, voting to authorize military force against ?those nations, organizations or persons? connected to the attacks of September 11, 2001. Like many of his fellow Democrats, he has since become a skeptic of the forever war. In a 2017 address at Westminster College in Missouri, the site of Winston Churchill?s 1946 ?Iron Curtain? speech, Sanders condemned the strategic framework of the war on terrorism as ?a disaster? because of its "heavy-handed military approach,? and singled out drone strikes for their ?high civilian casualties.? And Sanders has long expressed his unease with giving a president too much unilateral authority to deploy weapons of war. He often advocates for a strict interpretation of the War Powers Resolution, the post-Vietnam law that denies the president the power to engage in more than 60 days of military ?hostilities? without formal congressional authorization. >>>> >>>> ADVERTISING >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Yet during his 2016 presidential campaign, Sanders? counterterrorism rhetoric was more muted. He said on multiple occasions that while errant drone strikes are ?terrible? and ?counterproductive,? drones have also ?done some good things,? and ?taken out people who should be taken out.? And so, he said, he would continue to use drones, ?very selectively and effectively.? When asked about that shift in tone by Sanders since 2016, Duss argued that President Donald Trump has ?dialed up? the use of drones. How exactly Sanders would dial it down is not yet clear. Duss informed me Sanders would initiate ?a comprehensive review? of American counterterrorism policy?after his inauguration. >>>> >>>> Sanders is hardly the first candidate in history to punt the specifics on a complicated, controversial matter to some sort of blue-ribbon commission. But Sanders has been deferring to such a future commission for years, since his 2016 campaign. Three years later, his attacks on the counterterrorism status quo have dramatically intensified, but he appears to have failed to come up with an alternative strategy. >>>> >>>> What does Sanders actually believe? >>>> >>>> *** >>>> >>>> Rhetorically, at least, Sanders? critique of the Global War on Terror resembles the Republican attacks on Obamacare: Promise to ?repeal and replace? it without having the ?replace? part figured out. >>>> >>>> >>>> In fairness to Sanders, he has never pretended there are easy answers to complex foreign policy challenges. In a 1999 town hall, then-Congressman Sanders described the Kosovo crisis as ?enormously complicated, enormously difficult.? In a 2015 primary debate with Hillary Clinton, he said Syria ?is a complicated issue. I don't think anyone has a magical solution.? In 2016, in an interview with the Los Angeles Times, Sanders said pressuring Middle Eastern regimes to do more on counterterrorism, was ?not easy.? This year, while speaking to a reporter for The New Yorker about foreign policy, he sounded positively daunted: ?Look, this is very difficult stuff ? I most certainly do not believe that I have all the answers, or that this is easy stuff. I mean, you?re dealing with so much?my God.? >>>> >>>> Voters may find this shocking bit of honesty for a presidential candidate either refreshing or unsettling. Perhaps more wannabe presidents should have the humility to acknowledge that they don?t know everything. But maybe that humility should be reflected in a realistic, detailed foreign policy agenda. >>>> >>>> Sanders made that point himself in the 2016 primary, when he chided Hillary Clinton, and in effect, the Blob, about the decision to remove Moammar Gadhafi from power in Libya: ?Regime change is easy; getting rid of dictators is easy,? he said. ?But before you do that, you've got to think about what happens the day after.? >>>> >>>> Back in April 1999, then-Congressman Sanders was on the House floor giving a three-minute speech about the military intervention taking place in what was then known as Yugoslavia. In the first 90 seconds, Sanders gave the familiar argument that military operations?like that one?without congressional authorization are unconstitutional. But for the second half of his remarks, he shifted his focus. Without expending a word to satisfy his own constitutional concerns, Sanders defended the NATO bombing as necessary on moral grounds to stop ?ethnic cleansing,? the war?s euphemism for atrocities targeting ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. >>>> >>>> The Kosovo operation is a 20-year old episode, but it?s a rare example of Sanders openly, if not quite transparently, grappling with his conflicting principles?and presidents often have to do that. Sanders voted for a resolution, preferred by the Clinton administration, which ?authorized? the operation without codifying that the authorization was legally required under the War Powers Act. (Sanders, and nearly all of his colleagues, voted against a formal declaration of war.) And when even that resolution failed in the House on a tie vote, Sanders did not insist the operation end on the basis of its constitutional illegitimacy. Five days later at a Montpelier, Vermont, town hall, he passionately supported the bombing. >>>> >>>> >>>> Twenty years later, when it comes to defending NATO allies if attacked, the Blob will be happy to know Duss was unequivocal that Sanders would respond militarily: ?Shared security is something Senator Sanders strongly believes in, and the principle of collective defense is at the core of NATO's founding treaty. It's important for friends and foes alike to have no doubt that the United States will honor this commitment." >>>> >>>> Beyond that, Duss told me that cases of ?genocide or of mass atrocities? would ?weigh heavily? on the mind of Sanders as president. And he laid out the questions Sanders would pose: ?Does this meet the level of an emergency, an imminent atrocity? Does it immediately impact the security of the people of the United States? And if it doesn?t, does that imminent atrocity, rise to the level of a global norm which we have interest in enforcing and upholding? And finally, and very important, what are the chances for creating a better outcome having taken this step of introducing U.S. military forces into the situation?? >>>> >>>> These are all essential questions, and they are reassuring to Democratic foreign policy experts, even some progressive ones, who want Sanders to leave the door open for military force. Ploughshares Fund President Joseph Cirincione, an anti-nuclear weapons activist who informally advises Sanders, told me: ?I think Senator Sanders would not hesitate to use military force to defend the country from attack, to defend our vital interests, to prevent atrocities like genocide. But he?s made clear that military force should be the very, very last option.? >>>> >>>> For a small but noticeable anti-Bernie strain on the far left, that wiggle room for military strikes makes Sanders a hypocrite. For example, Ajamu Baraka, the last vice presidential nominee for the Green Party, said in an interview that Sanders? openness to military action amounts to ?saying one thing publicly but then appearing to have a different position that is reflected sometimes in his legislative decisions, and I think the Kosovo situation was a very important example of that.? >>>> >>>> >>>> But most of the anti-interventionist left aren?t quibbling about the smattering of past disagreements with Sanders such as Kosovo. They are mostly enthralled at how Sanders? campaign rhetoric is broadening the foreign policy debate. In particular, they are bowled over by how, earlier this year, Sanders used the War Powers Resolution to move a bipartisan bill through Congress demanding Trump end American military involvement in the Yemeni civil war, where the U.S. has supported Saudi Arabia?s intervention. Although the bill was vetoed, the fact that it got to Trump?s desk both legitimized the War Powers Resolution and bolstered Sanders? case that he can get things done in Washington. >>>> >>>> Most of the activists with whom I spoke put more emphasis on Yemen than Kosovo when gauging how a President Sanders would involve Congress in his foreign policy. Robert Naiman, policy director at Just Foreign Policy, raved over email: ?Sanders was the first to introduce a privileged resolution invoking the War Powers Resolution to force a vote to end unconstitutional U.S. participation in the war and lead it to completion, passage by Congress. That never happened before in the whole history of the War Powers Resolution since 1973.? >>>> >>>> But Sanders? proud defense of his Kosovo stance to his antiwar allies should not be ignored. He thundered at the May 1999 Montpelier town hall: ?What do you do to a war criminal who has led, for the first time in modern history, the organized rape as an agent of war, of tens of thousands of women? What do you do to a butcher who has lined up people and shot them? Do you say to them, ?You have won Mr. Milosevic. We are not going to stand up to you. We are going home??? Sanders once put the end of genocide ahead of a strict adherence to the War Powers Resolution, and his foreign policy adviser has now left the door open to him doing it again as president. >>>> >>>> Before President Barack Obama?s 2011 intervention in Libya, another instance of the use of American force to try to stop genocide, Sanders initially indicated support for military action. Sanders co-sponsored a Senate resolution that urged ?the United Nations Security Council to take such further action as may be necessary to protect civilians in Libya from attack, including the possible imposition of a no-fly zone over Libyan territory.? The Security Council did just that, setting in motion a multilateral military operation. >>>> >>>> >>>> Nine days after hostilities began, however, Sanders wasn?t stoutly defending the Libyan operation, as he had with Kosovo. He was betraying squeamishness about how long the operation would last, telling Fox News: ?Everybody understands Gadhafi is a thug and murderer. We want to see him go, but I think in the midst of two wars, I'm not quite sure we need a third war, and I hope the president tells us that our troops will be leaving there, that our military action in Libya will be ending very, very shortly.? After the death of Gadhafi and the subsequent destabilization of Libya, Sanders took a far dimmer view of the operation. He said four years later in a primary debate with Hillary Clinton, ?Yes, we could get rid of Gadhafi, a terrible dictator, but that created a vacuum for ISIS.? >>>> >>>> The common thread in Kosovo and Libya was Sanders? impulse to stop genocide, mitigated by his strong desire to limit the duration of any hostilities. If you are mainly concerned about getting bogged down in quagmires, you will be comforted by Sanders? discomfort with prolonged military action. However, those that are more comfortable with direct military action are unnerved that Sanders generally doesn?t talk about the nuances of his views on the campaign trail. >>>> >>>> ?If the anti-war rhetoric becomes too unequivocal, a leader may compromise their ability to rally popular support in the event that they judge intervention necessary,? said Suzanne Nossel, a former State Department official in the Obama administration, in an email exchange. ?If Bernie Sanders is serious about leaving himself leeway to act militarily where necessary, it would be useful to articulate that idea to his supporters in the context of the campaign.? >>>> >>>> *** >>>> >>>> >>>> Nossel?s concern is indicative of the skepticism Sanders receives from many inside the Blob. While the left loves Sanders? principles and his outsider posture, the Blob worries about his lack of details and experience in crisis situations. Mieke Eoyang, a former congressional staffer who once advised Congresswoman Pat Schroeder and Senator Ted Kennedy on defense issues, argues that Sanders was largely absent from serious legislating about foreign policy matters throughout the bulk of his congressional career. >>>> >>>> Now vice president for the National Security Program at the centrist organization Third Way, Eoyang worries that, despite the occasional examples of supporting military force, Sanders possesses ?a real reluctance to use American power.? ?The president has to make choices about how to exercise American power,? she told me, ?and there are serious negative consequences that flow from inaction as well as action. So you have to choose from a bunch of imperfect outcomes. And I have not seen Bernie, over the course of his career, being willing to select from imperfect outcomes.? >>>> >>>> But Blob members are not solely fixated on what, and whether, Bernie would bomb. They also question his faith in people-to-people public diplomacy. ?The devil is always in the detail,? warns Bishop Garrison, a former foreign policy adviser on Hillary Clinton?s 2016 presidential campaign who founded the Joseph Rainey Center for Public Policy, a ?post-partisan? think tank. Asked what Sanders? highly ambitious goal of building a ?global progressive movement that speaks to the needs of working people? to counter ?a growing worldwide movement toward authoritarianism, oligarchy and kleptocracy? means in practice, Duss said, ?The goal here is to promote the idea that progressives at the civil society level need to be reaching out, and meeting, and working, and networking and coordinating with each other much more energetically than we have been doing up until now, because we see right-wing forces doing that.? >>>> >>>> Duss went on: ?Building a global community is not just about relationships between governments, but it?s about relationships between peoples. As president, he would have a foreign policy that worked to protect political space where civil society groups from different countries under different forms of government can build relationships.? >>>> >>>> To Garrison, a veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom with two Bronze Stars, this seemingly heartwarming approach is fraught with danger. ?One could argue you?re talking about interfering with the ongoing political efforts of a society, on a grand and global scale across different sovereign nations. That?s not diplomacy.? While Garrison was supportive of civil society groups that invest in ?local populations,? he worried that Sanders? vision ?sounds like you?re going go in and start an uprising somewhere.? >>>> >>>> >>>> Jonathan Katz, a former State Department official in the Obama administration who has been sounding the alarm about ?democratic backsliding? within the NATO alliance, is more positive about the civil society push, and urged Sanders to show some specific figures for how much money he would ?be willing to put into an effort to promote democracy? abroad. (Duss in turn said it has not been decided yet if a budget proposal, delineating how much money would be cut from the military and redirected elsewhere, would be released during the campaign.) >>>> >>>> But Katz, now a senior fellow with the German Marshall Fund, cautioned against a pro-democracy outreach strategy rooted in a left-versus-right framework of the kind that Sanders seems to envision. ?More often than not,? Katz said, ?in the cases of countries where you have democratic backsliding, it?s not because people on the right or the left don?t want democracy. It?s usually a leader that comes in?an oligarch, an authoritarian?that starts to use and manipulate the system for his or her own good, or to benefit a small group around them.? He added, ?Bernie is narrowly pointing to progressives in terms of a global democracy fight. I like the idea of a global democracy fight. But it?s got to be inclusive ? Otherwise, you?re pitting groups against each other, potentially.? >>>> >>>> *** >>>> >>>> Duss may have given me a Blob-like response when asked about Sanders? criteria for going to war, but I would not suggest he?s become a card-carrying member. When you talk to Duss, he?s far more likely to say ?military violence? than ?military power.? He told me Sanders? counterterrorism strategy review would ?take a much more aggressive look at how we are using military violence.? Such language doesn?t preclude the use of the military. But Duss, and more important, Sanders, routinely send the signal that they harbor an extreme distaste for the use of force. >>>> >>>> Even so, Sanders has views about military intervention that are more complicated than his campaign rhetoric. And that may explain why he hasn?t delved into much detail about foreign policy. Once a candidate wades into the sea of international crises and hypothetical threats, eventually the possibility of military force arises. Any discussion of that risks making Sanders look more like a conventional commander in chief than a revolutionary one. >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Thu Dec 26 12:56:54 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 06:56:54 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Will the US fake Left work to normalize the impending coup attempt in Mexico the way it did for Venezuela, Bolivia, Brazil and Nicaragua? Message-ID: <000f01d5bbeb$f3319800$d994c800$@comcast.net> Mexico: Chronicle Of A Coup Foretold By Brian Mier, Counterpunch December 25, 2019 Will the US fake Left work to normalize the impending coup attempt in Mexico the way it did for Venezuela, Bolivia, Brazil and Nicaragua? Last July I gave a speech in the Left Forum in Brooklyn. When it was over, A young activist stood up and announced, in perfect English, that they were an anarchist from Mexico who had traveled to the Left Forum to speak out against the human rights abuses being perpetrated by "neoliberal" Mexican president Lopes Obrador against protesters. Since the panel I participated in had nothing to do with Mexico, I imagined an entire battalion of self-proclaimed Mexican vanguard leftists changing the subject in panel after panel at the left forum to damage AMLO's image by exaggerating the connection between the Mexican president and local police forces under the control of opposition governments, as had happened to Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff during the lead up to the World Cup. 'So it begins', I thought. As we say in Brazil, 'I've seen this movie before'. Based on the fact that the Integral State - the government, media, corporations, academic institutions, political parties, think tanks and NGOS which support the imperialist project - loves to recycle regime change tactics and strategies, I would like to predict how actors within the US left might, either overtly or inadvertently, strengthen support for the coup attempt which is obviously already kicking off against Mexico - a country that has petroleum deposits and other natural resources coveted by US corporations; a country whose children are already being held in American cages. This article is meant to help identify warning signs and hopefully lower the number of American progressives who fall for the same psyops techniques that were used against Honduras, Paraguay, Brazil, Nicaragua, Venezuela and Bolivia during recent US-supported coups and coup attempts in those countries. Although this article is satire, I have inserted links to similar types of articles from progressive media outlets about Latin American countries that have suffered from recent US-backed regime change attempts. Based on what has happened recently to other Pink Tide governments in Latin America, I believe that so-called left voices in the anglo media might pave the way for the normalization of a coup attempt in Mexico as follows: Stage 1 An American leftist magazine begins a campaign of articles by NED-funded Trotskyist academics about how AMLO is "betraying the left." On the environmental front, AMLO is chastised for failing to immediately ween the Mexican economy off of fossil fuels. Meanwhile, liberal media companies such as New York Times, Intercept and the Guardian, some of which have already transferred their top Latin America writers into Mexico City, run dozens of articles highlighting unfinished mega construction projects, crime, environmental crises and corruption,as if they are not systematic structural problems caused by centuries of parasitic capitalist exploitation and coups perpetrated by the US and its northern allies. They will pretend it is entirely new phenomenon in Mexico, which according to the useful idiots, exists in a geopolitical vacuum. Stage 2 As pressure mounts against Mexico, a US leftist media outlet runs an appeal for leftists to be "honest" about AMLO, written by, a respected Latin American studies professor,who has not lived in Latin America since his PhD research, 30 years ago. This piece will insist that AMLO is a capitalist, who does not deserve our solidarity. This is followed by a flurry of smug articles by grad students desperate to escape from the future nightmare of adjuncting focusing on AMLO's "failures". None of them mention the US or imperialism. Every campaign promise that is not delivered, every policy initiative that doesn't fulfill its purpose, is the fault of the sell-outs in the Mexican left. They all ignore the breathtaking obstructionism of the right-wing. Mexico needs a new left - one that makes a clean break from the past, from it's unions and its social movements. The purpose of this flurry of negative analysis, whether intentional or not, weaken solidarity with Mexico, which is already weak due to the constant barrage of subtle, brain-washing racism against Mexican-Americans in the hegemonic media and entertainment industry. Meanwhile, a new social movement springs up in Mexico, led by white, upper middle class university students, under the slogan of "no flags, no political parties". Stage 3 As International NGOs like Human Rights Watch and Transparency International, together with corporate-funded think tanks like AS/COA feed slanderous news-bytes into the hegemonic media, which is suddenly more interested in Mexico than it has ever been before. The protests begin expand. Conservative elites parade through the streets singing the US national anthem parroting the racist slogans against indigenous groups and cold war anti-communist rhetoric inundates the social media, thanks to a massive Cambridge Analytica-style US/UK funded psy-ops operation. The most popular progressive radio program in the country brings one of the young protesters onto the show, to talk about the horrible human rights abuses committed by "AMLO's police." A major progressive Latin American studies organization invites a group of protesters up to participate in a panel discussion about authoritarianism. They wear masks, but later remove them to take selfies during a meeting with Mike Rubio and Ted Cruz. The nuance that the Mexican president doesn't have any more control over local police forces than Obama did over the Oklahoma City or Dallas police during his presidency, is lost in the translation. On Twitter, a prominent member of "The Squad" begins to publicly worry about the growing "authoritarianism" in Mexico. This is retweeted uncritically by tens of thousands of US progressives including most of the largest left-leaning media institutions, their journalists and editors. Stage 4 Obrador falls. The neoliberal party originally supported by the US-backed coup mongers crashes and burns and a Trump/Bolsonaro/Boris Johnson style neofascist clown, backed by the narcotraffickers and the military takes the lead in a hastily set up election campaign. During the month before the elections the Guardian runs 22 articles explaining why the neofascist clown candidate isn't really so bad. As environmental protection agencies and labor laws are dismantled, pograms begin against indigenous peoples and slum dwellers. Assassinations and arbitrary arrests of labor and social movement leaders begin. Left and liberal media organizations alike, begin running hand-wringing articles about what went wrong. Indigenous and union leaders -ignored during the coup process - suddenly find themselves being invited to give interviews and write op-ed pieces for prominent American media outlets. Meanwhile, according to the same media groups, a specter hangs over Argentina. On the pages of the most popular socialist publication in America, a NED-funded Troskyist academic asks, "are Fernandez and Kirchner opening the doors of neoliberalism?" Brian Mier is a native Chicagoan who has lived in Brazil for 25 years. He is co-editor of Brasil Wire and Brazil correspondent for TeleSur English's TV news program, From the South. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brussel at illinois.edu Thu Dec 26 18:31:05 2019 From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 18:31:05 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Will the US fake Left work to normalize the impending coup attempt in Mexico the way it did for Venezuela, Bolivia, Brazil and Nicaragua? In-Reply-To: <000f01d5bbeb$f3319800$d994c800$@comcast.net> References: <000f01d5bbeb$f3319800$d994c800$@comcast.net> Message-ID: What I most got out of this piece was his linking of The Intercept and later on, ?the squad?, as joining in to promote a coup in Mexico. On what basis has he come to his opinions thereto? ?mkb On Dec 26, 2019, at 6:56 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss > wrote: Mexico: Chronicle Of A Coup Foretold By Brian Mier, Counterpunch December 25, 2019 Will the US fake Left work to normalize the impending coup attempt in Mexico the way it did for Venezuela, Bolivia, Brazil and Nicaragua? Last July I gave a speech in the Left Forum in Brooklyn. When it was over, A young activist stood up and announced, in perfect English, that they were an anarchist from Mexico who had traveled to the Left Forum to speak out against the human rights abuses being perpetrated by ?neoliberal? Mexican president Lopes Obrador against protesters. Since the panel I participated in had nothing to do with Mexico, I imagined an entire battalion of self-proclaimed Mexican vanguard leftists changing the subject in panel after panel at the left forum to damage AMLO?s image by exaggerating the connection between the Mexican president and local police forces under the control of opposition governments, as had happened to Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff during the lead up to the World Cup. ?So it begins?, I thought. As we say in Brazil, ?I?ve seen this movie before?. Based on the fact that the Integral State ? the government, media, corporations, academic institutions, political parties, think tanks and NGOS which support the imperialist project ? loves to recycle regime change tactics and strategies, I would like to predict how actors within the US left might, either overtly or inadvertently, strengthen support for the coup attempt which is obviously already kicking off against Mexico ? a country that has petroleum deposits and other natural resources coveted by US corporations; a country whose children are already being held in American cages. This article is meant to help identify warning signs and hopefully lower the number of American progressives who fall for the same psyops techniques that were used against Honduras, Paraguay, Brazil, Nicaragua, Venezuela and Bolivia during recent US-supported coups and coup attempts in those countries. Although this article is satire, I have inserted links to similar types of articles from progressive media outlets about Latin American countries that have suffered from recent US-backed regime change attempts. Based on what has happened recently to other Pink Tide governments in Latin America, I believe that so-called left voices in the anglo media might pave the way for the normalization of a coup attempt in Mexico as follows: Stage 1 An American leftist magazine begins a campaign of articles by NED-funded Trotskyist academics about how AMLO is ?betraying the left.? On the environmental front, AMLO is chastised for failing to immediately ween the Mexican economy off of fossil fuels. Meanwhile, liberal media companies such as New York Times, Intercept and the Guardian, some of which have already transferred their top Latin America writers into Mexico City, run dozens of articles highlighting unfinished mega construction projects, crime, environmental crises and corruption,as if they are not systematic structural problems caused by centuries of parasitic capitalist exploitation and coups perpetrated by the US and its northern allies. They will pretend it is entirely new phenomenon in Mexico, which according to the useful idiots, exists in a geopolitical vacuum. Stage 2 As pressure mounts against Mexico, a US leftist media outlet runs an appeal for leftists to be ?honest? about AMLO, written by, a respected Latin American studies professor,who has not lived in Latin America since his PhD research, 30 years ago. This piece will insist that AMLO is a capitalist, who does not deserve our solidarity. This is followed by a flurry of smug articles by grad students desperate to escape from the future nightmare of adjuncting focusing on AMLO?s ?failures?. None of them mention the US or imperialism. Every campaign promise that is not delivered, every policy initiative that doesn?t fulfill its purpose, is the fault of the sell-outs in the Mexican left. They all ignore the breathtaking obstructionism of the right-wing. Mexico needs a new left ? one that makes a clean break from the past, from it?s unions and its social movements. The purpose of this flurry of negative analysis, whether intentional or not, weaken solidarity with Mexico, which is already weak due to the constant barrage of subtle, brain-washing racism against Mexican-Americans in the hegemonic media and entertainment industry. Meanwhile, a new social movement springs up in Mexico, led by white, upper middle class university students, under the slogan of ?no flags, no political parties?. Stage 3 As International NGOs like Human Rights Watch and Transparency International, together with corporate-funded think tanks like AS/COA feed slanderous news-bytes into the hegemonic media, which is suddenly more interested in Mexico than it has ever been before. The protests begin expand. Conservative elites parade through the streets singing the US national anthem parroting the racist slogans against indigenous groups and cold war anti-communist rhetoric inundates the social media, thanks to a massive Cambridge Analytica-style US/UK funded psy-ops operation. The most popular progressive radio program in the country brings one of the young protesters onto the show, to talk about the horrible human rights abuses committed by ?AMLO?s police.? A major progressive Latin American studies organization invites a group of protesters up to participate in a panel discussion about authoritarianism. They wear masks, but later remove them to take selfies during a meeting with Mike Rubio and Ted Cruz. The nuance that the Mexican president doesn?t have any more control over local police forces than Obama did over the Oklahoma City or Dallas police during his presidency, is lost in the translation. On Twitter, a prominent member of ?The Squad? begins to publicly worry about the growing ?authoritarianism? in Mexico. This is retweeted uncritically by tens of thousands of US progressives including most of the largest left-leaning media institutions, their journalists and editors. Stage 4 Obrador falls. The neoliberal party originally supported by the US-backed coup mongers crashes and burns and a Trump/Bolsonaro/Boris Johnson style neofascist clown, backed by the narcotraffickers and the military takes the lead in a hastily set up election campaign. During the month before the elections the Guardian runs 22 articles explaining why the neofascist clown candidate isn?t really so bad. As environmental protection agencies and labor laws are dismantled, pograms begin against indigenous peoples and slum dwellers. Assassinations and arbitrary arrests of labor and social movement leaders begin. Left and liberal media organizations alike, begin running hand-wringing articles about what went wrong. Indigenous and union leaders -ignored during the coup process ? suddenly find themselves being invited to give interviews and write op-ed pieces for prominent American media outlets. Meanwhile, according to the same media groups, a specter hangs over Argentina. On the pages of the most popular socialist publication in America, a NED-funded Troskyist academic asks, ?are Fernandez and Kirchner opening the doors of neoliberalism?? Brian Mier is a native Chicagoan who has lived in Brazil for 25 years. He is co-editor of Brasil Wire and Brazil correspondent for TeleSur English?s TV news program, From the South. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Fri Dec 27 02:05:02 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 20:05:02 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Will the US fake Left work to normalize the impending coup attempt in Mexico the way it did for Venezuela, Bolivia, Brazil and Nicaragua? In-Reply-To: References: <000f01d5bbeb$f3319800$d994c800$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <003001d5bc5a$0f36dd30$2da49790$@comcast.net> Mort, Here is the link in the article that documents that statement based on past practices of THE INTERCEPT and AOC in regards to Venezuela - to publicly worry about the growing ?authoritarianism? . AOC did say the right thing in opposition to the Bolivian coup recently, however she is still repeating CIA and NED talking points about Venezuela unquestionably. For me, this article was spot on in terms of what I saw in the last two-three years in regards to ; Venezuela, Nicaragua, Libya, and Syria in particular. A new tactic of bought off pseudo ? Left ? groups like the now defunct ISO and regime change imperialists calling themselves ? Anarchists ?, and Neo- Liberal corporate and foundation grant money directed at previously decent ? alternative ? media platforms like DEMOCRACY NOW, KPFA, etc. demanding that they tow the U.S. State Dept. propaganda narrative or lose their funding, and then na?ve ? progressives ? like AOC repeat uncritically the propaganda of these outlets. Not to mention LOTS of ? anonymous ? bloggers claiming to be the ? real ? Left ? calling anti-imperialist people who are ACTUALLY LEFT; ? Tankies ? etc.. A word that was coined during the 1950?s and 60?s cold war in regards to people who supported the Soviet invasion of Hungary and Czechoslovakia, that is no longer relative in any stretch of the imagination. These pseudo Leftists NEVER criticize any repressive government supported by the U.S., ONLY those countries that the U.S. has targeted for destabilization and regime change. David J. From: Brussel, Morton K [mailto:brussel at illinois.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2019 12:31 PM To: David Johnson Cc: Brussel, Morton K; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Will the US fake Left work to normalize the impending coup attempt in Mexico the way it did for Venezuela, Bolivia, Brazil and Nicaragua? What I most got out of this piece was his linking of The Intercept and later on, ?the squad?, as joining in to promote a coup in Mexico. On what basis has he come to his opinions thereto? ?mkb On Dec 26, 2019, at 6:56 AM, David Johnson via Peace-discuss wrote: Mexico: Chronicle Of A Coup Foretold By Brian Mier, Counterpunch December 25, 2019 Will the US fake Left work to normalize the impending coup attempt in Mexico the way it did for Venezuela, Bolivia, Brazil and Nicaragua? Last July I gave a speech in the Left Forum in Brooklyn. When it was over, A young activist stood up and announced, in perfect English, that they were an anarchist from Mexico who had traveled to the Left Forum to speak out against the human rights abuses being perpetrated by ?neoliberal? Mexican president Lopes Obrador against protesters. Since the panel I participated in had nothing to do with Mexico, I imagined an entire battalion of self-proclaimed Mexican vanguard leftists changing the subject in panel after panel at the left forum to damage AMLO?s image by exaggerating the connection between the Mexican president and local police forces under the control of opposition governments, as had happened to Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff during the lead up to the World Cup. ?So it begins?, I thought. As we say in Brazil, ?I?ve seen this movie before?. Based on the fact that the Integral State ? the government, media, corporations, academic institutions, political parties, think tanks and NGOS which support the imperialist project ? loves to recycle regime change tactics and strategies, I would like to predict how actors within the US left might, either overtly or inadvertently, strengthen support for the coup attempt which is obviously already kicking off against Mexico ? a country that has petroleum deposits and other natural resources coveted by US corporations; a country whose children are already being held in American cages. This article is meant to help identify warning signs and hopefully lower the number of American progressives who fall for the same psyops techniques that were used against Honduras, Paraguay, Brazil, Nicaragua, Venezuela and Bolivia during recent US-supported coups and coup attempts in those countries. Although this article is satire, I have inserted links to similar types of articles from progressive media outlets about Latin American countries that have suffered from recent US-backed regime change attempts . Based on what has happened recently to other Pink Tide governments in Latin America, I believe that so-called left voices in the anglo media might pave the way for the normalization of a coup attempt in Mexico as follows: Stage 1 An American leftist magazine begins a campaign of articles by NED-funded Trotskyist academics about how AMLO is ?betraying the left.? On the environmental front, AMLO is chastised for failing to immediately ween the Mexican economy off of fossil fuels . Meanwhile, liberal media companies such as New York Times, Intercept and the Guardian, some of which have already transferred their top Latin America writers into Mexico City, run dozens of articles highlighting unfinished mega construction projects , crime , environmental crises and corruption ,as if they are not systematic structural problems caused by centuries of parasitic capitalist exploitation and coups perpetrated by the US and its northern allies . They will pretend it is entirely new phenomenon in Mexico, which according to the useful idiots, exists in a geopolitical vacuum. Stage 2 As pressure mounts against Mexico, a US leftist media outlet runs an appeal for leftists to be ?honest? about AMLO, written by, a respected Latin American studies professor,who has not lived in Latin America since his PhD research, 30 years ago. This piece will insist that AMLO is a capitalist, who does not deserve our solidarity. This is followed by a flurry of smug articles by grad students desperate to escape from the future nightmare of adjuncting focusing on AMLO?s ?failures? . None of them mention the US or imperialism. Every campaign promise that is not delivered, every policy initiative that doesn?t fulfill its purpose, is the fault of the sell-outs in the Mexican left . They all ignore the breathtaking obstructionism of the right-wing. Mexico needs a new left ? one that makes a clean break from the past, from it?s unions and its social movements. The purpose of this flurry of negative analysis, whether intentional or not, weaken solidarity with Mexico, which is already weak due to the constant barrage of subtle, brain-washing racism against Mexican-Americans in the hegemonic media and entertainment industry. Meanwhile, a new social movement springs up in Mexico, led by white, upper middle class university students, under the slogan of ?no flags, no political parties?. Stage 3 As International NGOs like Human Rights Watch and Transparency International , together with corporate-funded think tanks like AS/COA feed slanderous news-bytes into the hegemonic media, which is suddenly more interested in Mexico than it has ever been before. The protests begin expand. Conservative elites parade through the streets singing the US national anthem parroting the racist slogans against indigenous groups and cold war anti-communist rhetoric inundates the social media, thanks to a massive Cambridge Analytica-style US/UK funded psy-ops operation . The most popular progressive radio program in the country brings one of the young protesters onto the show, to talk about the horrible human rights abuses committed by ?AMLO?s police.? A major progressive Latin American studies organization invites a group of protesters up to participate in a panel discussion about authoritarianism. They wear masks, but later remove them to take selfies during a meeting with Mike Rubio and Ted Cruz . The nuance that the Mexican president doesn?t have any more control over local police forces than Obama did over the Oklahoma City or Dallas police during his presidency, is lost in the translation. On Twitter, a prominent member of ?The Squad? begins to publicly worry about the growing ?authoritarianism? in Mexico. This is retweeted uncritically by tens of thousands of US progressives including most of the largest left-leaning media institutions, their journalists and editors. Stage 4 Obrador falls. The neoliberal party originally supported by the US-backed coup mongers crashes and burns and a Trump/Bolsonaro/Boris Johnson style neofascist clown, backed by the narcotraffickers and the military takes the lead in a hastily set up election campaign. During the month before the elections the Guardian runs 22 articles explaining why the neofascist clown candidate isn?t really so bad . As environmental protection agencies and labor laws are dismantled, pograms begin against indigenous peoples and slum dwellers. Assassinations and arbitrary arrests of labor and social movement leaders begin. Left and liberal media organizations alike, begin running hand-wringing articles about what went wrong. Indigenous and union leaders -ignored during the coup process ? suddenly find themselves being invited to give interviews and write op-ed pieces for prominent American media outlets. Meanwhile, according to the same media groups, a specter hangs over Argentina. On the pages of the most popular socialist publication in America, a NED-funded Troskyist academic asks, ?are Fernandez and Kirchner opening the doors of neoliberalism?? Brian Mier is a native Chicagoan who has lived in Brazil for 25 years. He is co-editor of Brasil Wire and Brazil correspondent for TeleSur English?s TV news program, From the South. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbn at forestfield.org Sat Dec 28 08:45:19 2019 From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 02:45:19 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] News from Neptune #445 notes Message-ID: <20953581-7962-c00e-a7d1-3939d6b54134@forestfield.org> News from Neptune #445 A "Ghost of an Anti-War Movement Past" edition Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPA0iXKQkF8 A list of links to items mentioned on the show. "Hamlet" by William Shakespeare http://shakespeare.mit.edu/hamlet/full.html The quoted reference comes from Act 3, Scene 4. Jeffrey St. Clair on "The Last Line of Defense: 20 Activist Groups That Are Making a Big Difference" https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/27/the-last-line-of-defense-20-activist-groups-that-are-making-a-difference/ Voices For Creative Nonviolence 1249 W. Argyle St. #2 Chicago, Illinois 60640 773-878-3815 http://vcnv.org/ Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian Gordon Wood on the New York Times? 1619 Project" https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian James McPherson on the New York Times? 1619 Project" https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html All pages on the wsws.org site mentioning "1619 project" https://www.wsws.org/en/search.html?sectionId=&maxResults=100&phrase=1619+project&submit=Search R. L. Stephens on "Between the Black Body and Me" https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/05/ta-nehisi-coates-racism-afro-pessimism-reparations-class-struggle Fannie Lou Hamer and the Freedom Democratic Party and Congressional Run https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fannie_Lou_Hamer#Freedom_Democratic_Party_and_Congressional_run Julie Wurth on "Local ACLU, NAACP chapters air concerns on achievement gaps in Unit 4" https://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/education/local-aclu-naacp-chapters-air-concerns-on-achievement-gaps-in/article_861752a7-b070-54de-a488-b1e91031cbd7.html Related: Juliann Xu on "Unit 4 must address achievement gap" https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/guest-commentary/guest-commentary-unit-must-address-achievement-gap/article_3bdc67f6-454d-5c5e-95fc-2000d268a6fb.html Adolph Reed, Jr. on "Oats for Breakfast" show https://soundcloud.com/user-108536943/episode-12-race-class-and-the-left-w-adolph-reed-jr -- initially published interview https://soundcloud.com/user-108536943/unlocked-extended-interview-w-adolph-reed-jr -- extended interview Oats for Breakfast https://socialistproject.ca/podcast/ Glen Ford on "The Validity and Usefulness of the Term ?Black Misleadership Class?" https://www.blackagendareport.com/validity-and-usefulness-term-black-misleadership-class Adolph Reed on "Identity Politics Is Neoliberalism" https://bennorton.com/adolph-reed-identity-politics-is-neoliberalism/ Howie Hawkins on "The Green Party Is Not the Democrats? Problem" https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/25/the-green-party-is-not-the-democrats-problem/ Howie Hawkins interview with Primo Nutmeg on Russiagate (excerpt) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xZZTlzThTo Full interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABW-_2lnn00 Jimmy Dore on Howie Hawkins supporting Russiagate to Primo Nutmeg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvbSLYC2PaE Dr. Jill Stein on Howie Hawkins supporting Russiagate to Primo Nutmeg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y7-IhocQWk Rep. Tulsi Gabbard interview with Primo Nutmeg (which includes Rep. Gabbard saying she'll not run as a third-party and that she's a loyal Democrat) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkdl-QbtS1U Rep. Tulsi Gabbard saying she'll support any Democrat who wins the primary which means she'll likely end up supporting someone more belligerent than she speaks about war. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzVSYBNgOeI > CBS Interviewer: Earlier this month you told our political reporter > Caitlin Huey-Burns[1] that you would support the Democratic nominee if > you end up not winning the primary. Is there any policy a Democratic > nominee could hold that would persuade you not to elect them in the > general election? > > Tulsi Gabbard: No. I am, as are all of the other candidates that I'm > aware of running for president, committed to defeating Donald Trump in > 2020. I look forward and hope to be able to earn that nomination myself > but if not then I'll join with others in making sure that that happens. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/video/tulsi-gabbard-on-her-political-future/ where CBS' Caitlin Huey-Burns got right to the point: > Caitlin Huey-Burns: Will you ultimately support the Democratic nominee? > > Tulsi Gabbard: Yes. Craig Whitlock, Leslie Shapiro, and Armand Emamdjomeh on "The Afghanistan Papers: A secret history of the war" https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/documents-database/ https://archive.md/75YUm Pentagon Papers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers Major Danny Sjursen on "We Have Just Been Handed the Pentagon Papers of Our Generation" https://www.thenation.com/article/afghanistan-papers-forever-war/ Costas Lapavitsas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costas_Lapavitsas Costas Lapavitsas interview with Paul Jay on "The Real News" Transcript: https://therealnews.com/stories/class-struggle-over-brexit-lapavitsas-and-jay Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh65ee5U9Kk Rob Urie on "Gender, Class and Capitalism" https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/03/08/gender-class-and-capitalism/ Liam Stack on "J.K. Rowling Criticized After Tweeting Support for Anti-Transgender Researcher" https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html TERF is an acronym for "trans-exclusionary radical feminist" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERF Cedric Johnson on "What Black Life Actually Looks Like" https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/04/racism-black-lives-matter-inequality J.B. Nicholson's notes https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051707.html https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015514.html -J From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Sat Dec 28 14:39:22 2019 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 08:39:22 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] News from Neptune #445 notes In-Reply-To: <20953581-7962-c00e-a7d1-3939d6b54134@forestfield.org> References: <20953581-7962-c00e-a7d1-3939d6b54134@forestfield.org> Message-ID: My letter to the News-Gazette, soon to be published, as read on the program: The debate in the *News-Gazette* regarding ?racial disparities? in Unit 4 schools is remarkably uninformed, if not slanderous; unsurprisingly, it occurs within limits set by a society that quite intentionally promotes radical income and wealth inequality based not on ?merit,? but systemic, legalized, and socially-admired greed. In this context, those who call themselves ?liberal? or ?progressive,? and accept capitalism, imperialism and war, use weasel words: ?diversity,? ?equity,? ?equal opportunity,? etc. They speak the obscurantist language of individual attitudes and systemic cultural or racial ?discrimination,? rather than the revelatory language of systemic economic (and environmental) exploitation and its accompanying ?success? at materially, medically, and intellectually hammering working class families. Unit 4 teachers and administrators, some of whom I?ve voluntarily worked with in recent years, range from merely competent to excellent. The A.C.L.U. and N.A.A.C.P., ironically evidencing limited analytical skills, look to ?race? like an inebriated person looks for keys under a streetlight. Nevertheless, corporate-driven ?multicultural? curriculum and testing regimes are designed to certify the ?bright? futures of privileged students, while preparing working class students, regardless of race, for a future of alienation, self-blame, disrespected labor, and financial struggle. If the latter students don?t like that, the neoliberal corporate and political establishment makes it clear they can serve as military cannon fodder, medicate and entertain themselves, go to prison, or labor and suffer in silent desperation and false hope. Schools are at worst bureaucratic accomplices in this rigged system. Liberal critics are oblivious to or enablers of those profiting from its rigging. On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 2:46 AM J.B. Nicholson via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > News from Neptune #445 > A "Ghost of an Anti-War Movement Past" edition > Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPA0iXKQkF8 > > A list of links to items mentioned on the show. > > "Hamlet" by William Shakespeare > http://shakespeare.mit.edu/hamlet/full.html > The quoted reference comes from Act 3, Scene 4. > > Jeffrey St. Clair on "The Last Line of Defense: 20 Activist Groups That > Are > Making a Big Difference" > > https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/27/the-last-line-of-defense-20-activist-groups-that-are-making-a-difference/ > > Voices For Creative Nonviolence > 1249 W. Argyle St. #2 > Chicago, Illinois 60640 > 773-878-3815 > http://vcnv.org/ > > > > > > Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian Gordon Wood on the New York > Times? 1619 Project" > https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html > > Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian James McPherson on the New > York Times? 1619 Project" > https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html > > All pages on the wsws.org site mentioning "1619 project" > > https://www.wsws.org/en/search.html?sectionId=&maxResults=100&phrase=1619+project&submit=Search > > R. L. Stephens on "Between the Black Body and Me" > > https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/05/ta-nehisi-coates-racism-afro-pessimism-reparations-class-struggle > > Fannie Lou Hamer and the Freedom Democratic Party and Congressional Run > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fannie_Lou_Hamer#Freedom_Democratic_Party_and_Congressional_run > > Julie Wurth on "Local ACLU, NAACP chapters air concerns on achievement > gaps > in Unit 4" > > https://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/education/local-aclu-naacp-chapters-air-concerns-on-achievement-gaps-in/article_861752a7-b070-54de-a488-b1e91031cbd7.html > > Related: Juliann Xu on "Unit 4 must address achievement gap" > > https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/guest-commentary/guest-commentary-unit-must-address-achievement-gap/article_3bdc67f6-454d-5c5e-95fc-2000d268a6fb.html > > Adolph Reed, Jr. on "Oats for Breakfast" show > > https://soundcloud.com/user-108536943/episode-12-race-class-and-the-left-w-adolph-reed-jr > -- initially published interview > > https://soundcloud.com/user-108536943/unlocked-extended-interview-w-adolph-reed-jr > -- extended interview > > Oats for Breakfast > https://socialistproject.ca/podcast/ > > Glen Ford on "The Validity and Usefulness of the Term ?Black Misleadership > Class?" > > https://www.blackagendareport.com/validity-and-usefulness-term-black-misleadership-class > > Adolph Reed on "Identity Politics Is Neoliberalism" > https://bennorton.com/adolph-reed-identity-politics-is-neoliberalism/ > > > > > Howie Hawkins on "The Green Party Is Not the Democrats? Problem" > > https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/25/the-green-party-is-not-the-democrats-problem/ > > Howie Hawkins interview with Primo Nutmeg on Russiagate (excerpt) > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xZZTlzThTo > Full interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABW-_2lnn00 > > Jimmy Dore on Howie Hawkins supporting Russiagate to Primo Nutmeg > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvbSLYC2PaE > > Dr. Jill Stein on Howie Hawkins supporting Russiagate to Primo Nutmeg > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y7-IhocQWk > > Rep. Tulsi Gabbard interview with Primo Nutmeg (which includes Rep. > Gabbard > saying she'll not run as a third-party and that she's a loyal Democrat) > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkdl-QbtS1U > > Rep. Tulsi Gabbard saying she'll support any Democrat who wins the primary > which means she'll likely end up supporting someone more belligerent than > she speaks about war. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzVSYBNgOeI > > > CBS Interviewer: Earlier this month you told our political reporter > > Caitlin Huey-Burns[1] that you would support the Democratic nominee if > > you end up not winning the primary. Is there any policy a Democratic > > nominee could hold that would persuade you not to elect them in the > > general election? > > > > Tulsi Gabbard: No. I am, as are all of the other candidates that I'm > > aware of running for president, committed to defeating Donald Trump in > > 2020. I look forward and hope to be able to earn that nomination myself > > but if not then I'll join with others in making sure that that happens. > > [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/video/tulsi-gabbard-on-her-political-future/ > where CBS' Caitlin Huey-Burns got right to the point: > > > Caitlin Huey-Burns: Will you ultimately support the Democratic nominee? > > > > Tulsi Gabbard: Yes. > > Craig Whitlock, Leslie Shapiro, and Armand Emamdjomeh on "The Afghanistan > Papers: A secret history of the war" > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/documents-database/ > https://archive.md/75YUm > > Pentagon Papers > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers > > Major Danny Sjursen on "We Have Just Been Handed the Pentagon Papers of > Our > Generation" > https://www.thenation.com/article/afghanistan-papers-forever-war/ > > > > > Costas Lapavitsas > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costas_Lapavitsas > > Costas Lapavitsas interview with Paul Jay on "The Real News" > Transcript: > > https://therealnews.com/stories/class-struggle-over-brexit-lapavitsas-and-jay > Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh65ee5U9Kk > > > > > Rob Urie on "Gender, Class and Capitalism" > https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/03/08/gender-class-and-capitalism/ > > Liam Stack on "J.K. Rowling Criticized After Tweeting Support for > Anti-Transgender Researcher" > > https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html > > > TERF is an acronym for "trans-exclusionary radical feminist" > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERF > > Cedric Johnson on "What Black Life Actually Looks Like" > https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/04/racism-black-lives-matter-inequality > > > J.B. Nicholson's notes > > https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051707.html > https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015514.html > > -J > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Dec 28 15:23:34 2019 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 07:23:34 -0800 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #445 notes In-Reply-To: References: <20953581-7962-c00e-a7d1-3939d6b54134@forestfield.org> Message-ID: Absolutely Brilliant, you outdid yourself with this one David. > On Dec 28, 2019, at 06:39, David Green via Peace wrote: > > My letter to the News-Gazette, soon to be published, as read on the program: > > The debate in the News-Gazette regarding ?racial disparities? in Unit 4 schools is remarkably uninformed, if not slanderous; unsurprisingly, it occurs within limits set by a society that quite intentionally promotes radical income and wealth inequality based not on ?merit,? but systemic, legalized, and socially-admired greed. > > In this context, those who call themselves ?liberal? or ?progressive,? and accept capitalism, imperialism and war, use weasel words: ?diversity,? ?equity,? ?equal opportunity,? etc. They speak the obscurantist language of individual attitudes and systemic cultural or racial ?discrimination,? rather than the revelatory language of systemic economic (and environmental) exploitation and its accompanying ?success? at materially, medically, and intellectually hammering working class families. > > Unit 4 teachers and administrators, some of whom I?ve voluntarily worked with in recent years, range from merely competent to excellent. The A.C.L.U. and N.A.A.C.P., ironically evidencing limited analytical skills, look to ?race? like an inebriated person looks for keys under a streetlight. Nevertheless, corporate-driven ?multicultural? curriculum and testing regimes are designed to certify the ?bright? futures of privileged students, while preparing working class students, regardless of race, for a future of alienation, self-blame, disrespected labor, and financial struggle. > > If the latter students don?t like that, the neoliberal corporate and political establishment makes it clear they can serve as military cannon fodder, medicate and entertain themselves, go to prison, or labor and suffer in silent desperation and false hope. > > Schools are at worst bureaucratic accomplices in this rigged system. Liberal critics are oblivious to or enablers of those profiting from its rigging. > > > On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 2:46 AM J.B. Nicholson via Peace-discuss > wrote: > News from Neptune #445 > A "Ghost of an Anti-War Movement Past" edition > Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPA0iXKQkF8 > > A list of links to items mentioned on the show. > > "Hamlet" by William Shakespeare > http://shakespeare.mit.edu/hamlet/full.html > The quoted reference comes from Act 3, Scene 4. > > Jeffrey St. Clair on "The Last Line of Defense: 20 Activist Groups That Are > Making a Big Difference" > https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/27/the-last-line-of-defense-20-activist-groups-that-are-making-a-difference/ > > Voices For Creative Nonviolence > 1249 W. Argyle St. #2 > Chicago, Illinois 60640 > 773-878-3815 > http://vcnv.org/ > > > > > > Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian Gordon Wood on the New York > Times? 1619 Project" > https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html > > Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian James McPherson on the New > York Times? 1619 Project" > https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html > > All pages on the wsws.org site mentioning "1619 project" > https://www.wsws.org/en/search.html?sectionId=&maxResults=100&phrase=1619+project&submit=Search > > R. L. Stephens on "Between the Black Body and Me" > https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/05/ta-nehisi-coates-racism-afro-pessimism-reparations-class-struggle > > Fannie Lou Hamer and the Freedom Democratic Party and Congressional Run > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fannie_Lou_Hamer#Freedom_Democratic_Party_and_Congressional_run > > Julie Wurth on "Local ACLU, NAACP chapters air concerns on achievement gaps > in Unit 4" > https://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/education/local-aclu-naacp-chapters-air-concerns-on-achievement-gaps-in/article_861752a7-b070-54de-a488-b1e91031cbd7.html > > Related: Juliann Xu on "Unit 4 must address achievement gap" > https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/guest-commentary/guest-commentary-unit-must-address-achievement-gap/article_3bdc67f6-454d-5c5e-95fc-2000d268a6fb.html > > Adolph Reed, Jr. on "Oats for Breakfast" show > https://soundcloud.com/user-108536943/episode-12-race-class-and-the-left-w-adolph-reed-jr > -- initially published interview > https://soundcloud.com/user-108536943/unlocked-extended-interview-w-adolph-reed-jr > -- extended interview > > Oats for Breakfast > https://socialistproject.ca/podcast/ > > Glen Ford on "The Validity and Usefulness of the Term ?Black Misleadership > Class?" > https://www.blackagendareport.com/validity-and-usefulness-term-black-misleadership-class > > Adolph Reed on "Identity Politics Is Neoliberalism" > https://bennorton.com/adolph-reed-identity-politics-is-neoliberalism/ > > > > > Howie Hawkins on "The Green Party Is Not the Democrats? Problem" > https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/25/the-green-party-is-not-the-democrats-problem/ > > Howie Hawkins interview with Primo Nutmeg on Russiagate (excerpt) > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xZZTlzThTo > Full interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABW-_2lnn00 > > Jimmy Dore on Howie Hawkins supporting Russiagate to Primo Nutmeg > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvbSLYC2PaE > > Dr. Jill Stein on Howie Hawkins supporting Russiagate to Primo Nutmeg > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y7-IhocQWk > > Rep. Tulsi Gabbard interview with Primo Nutmeg (which includes Rep. Gabbard > saying she'll not run as a third-party and that she's a loyal Democrat) > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkdl-QbtS1U > > Rep. Tulsi Gabbard saying she'll support any Democrat who wins the primary > which means she'll likely end up supporting someone more belligerent than > she speaks about war. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzVSYBNgOeI > > > CBS Interviewer: Earlier this month you told our political reporter > > Caitlin Huey-Burns[1] that you would support the Democratic nominee if > > you end up not winning the primary. Is there any policy a Democratic > > nominee could hold that would persuade you not to elect them in the > > general election? > > > > Tulsi Gabbard: No. I am, as are all of the other candidates that I'm > > aware of running for president, committed to defeating Donald Trump in > > 2020. I look forward and hope to be able to earn that nomination myself > > but if not then I'll join with others in making sure that that happens. > > [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/video/tulsi-gabbard-on-her-political-future/ > where CBS' Caitlin Huey-Burns got right to the point: > > > Caitlin Huey-Burns: Will you ultimately support the Democratic nominee? > > > > Tulsi Gabbard: Yes. > > Craig Whitlock, Leslie Shapiro, and Armand Emamdjomeh on "The Afghanistan > Papers: A secret history of the war" > https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/documents-database/ > https://archive.md/75YUm > > Pentagon Papers > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers > > Major Danny Sjursen on "We Have Just Been Handed the Pentagon Papers of Our > Generation" > https://www.thenation.com/article/afghanistan-papers-forever-war/ > > > > > Costas Lapavitsas > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costas_Lapavitsas > > Costas Lapavitsas interview with Paul Jay on "The Real News" > Transcript: > https://therealnews.com/stories/class-struggle-over-brexit-lapavitsas-and-jay > Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh65ee5U9Kk > > > > > Rob Urie on "Gender, Class and Capitalism" > https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/03/08/gender-class-and-capitalism/ > > Liam Stack on "J.K. Rowling Criticized After Tweeting Support for > Anti-Transgender Researcher" > https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html > > > TERF is an acronym for "trans-exclusionary radical feminist" > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERF > > Cedric Johnson on "What Black Life Actually Looks Like" > https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/04/racism-black-lives-matter-inequality > > > J.B. Nicholson's notes > https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051707.html > https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015514.html > > -J > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Sat Dec 28 19:13:44 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 13:13:44 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Impeachment Theater While the Planet Burns Message-ID: <00f701d5bdb2$ed01e390$c705aab0$@comcast.net> December 27, 2019 Impeachment Theater While the Planet Burns by Rob Urie With the gravitas of a wardrobe malfunction at a Super Bowl halftime show, Donald Trump was impeached. This, by the same Democratic Party functionaries who went on to pass his $734 billion military budget and his reworked not-NAFTA trade agreement. To the perpetual 'if,' if Mr. Trump isn't to be trusted with the affairs of state, the alleged reason he was impeached, why enhance his power over the affairs of state through increasing the military budget? The same is true with re-upping the Patriot Act. And backing his coup in Bolivia. And his attempted coup in Venezuela. Clearer evidence of the political theater character of impeachment would be hard to find. Left apparently unconsidered in the halls of power is how socially divisive this theater is becoming. If there was a lesson in Labour's electoral loss in Britain, it is that Clintonite 'triangulation' works until it doesn't. As the facts have it, both Democrats and Republicans have spent four decades working for capital and against labor. But it is Democrats alone who now stand in front of the catastrophe they helped create to claim credit for it. Labour did this when they equivocated on the consequence of their own neoliberal disaster, Brexit. It is difficult to tell what impeachment was expected to accomplish. A sense of 'getting Trump' seems to have been the primary motivation. If so, Mr. Trump has quite spectacularly not been gotten. He won't be convicted by the Senate, meaning that he won't be removed from office. Coming much earlier in his (now) likely tenure than Bill Clinton's impeachment, no constraints have been placed on Mr. Trump's future actions. Impeachment along party lines looks like the Democrats sanctioned Mr. Trump- not official sanction as has been claimed. And hopes of politically shaming Donald Trump imagine it possible to shame him. With the current impasse over moving the charges against Mr. Trump forward in the Senate, what has been demonstrated is that Democrats are incapable of governing in the most basic of senses. The question of the end game, which one would assume had been considered before starting the process, appears never to have occurred to them. With new charges against Donald Trump now being rumored, the Democrat's apparent strategy is to double down. As politically attractive as incompetence mixed with desperation is, there are real problems in need of being solved. The final story of impeachment isn't yet written- the machinations between the House and Senate might yield some as-of-yet unconsidered outcome. But the story to date- its beginning, middle and end, were reasonably well understood on the day that Mr. Trump took office. Conversely, if establishment Democrats really believe any of what they have been saying about Mr. Trump to be true- that he is an authoritarian, demagogic, etc., why do they continue to enhance his power legislatively? Wouldn't prudence dictate that his power be clipped wherever and whenever possible? The aggregated evidence suggests that the logic and reasons given by top Democrats for opposing Mr. Trump are fictions. If the predictable death of impeachment in the Senate weren't enough, who among the establishment Democratic candidates being brought forth to dislodge Mr. Trump in 2020 opposes his political program in material terms? They may oppose Donald Trump the person, but as long as he over-funds the military and cuts taxes for the rich, how does this differ from their own programs? Phrased differently, who amongst the establishment candidates publicly proclaimed Mr. Trump's military budget to be the moral and political abomination that it is? Handing Mr. Trump a political victory on his signature issue- trade, seems suicidal. The problem for Democrats is that their fealty to neoliberalism means that they only understand trade from Mr. Trump's right. In Britain, Labour tried to use triangulation to hold antithetical class interests together. This included professional class liberals and the working class they had spent several decades displacing as functionaries for capital. The Democrat's 'centrism' is an effort to de-politicize similar antithetical class interests. Note: it didn't work for Labour. Three centuries of political musical chairs around slight variations on oligarchic control now leaves Team D battling Team R to perpetuate the game. >From the evidence, it's certain that the well-crafted hatred of the opposing team's key players is sincerely felt. Donald Trump is racist, sexist and Nancy Pelosi is a big government liberal. But this loathing isn't the politics in play. The politics that affect outcomes like war and peace, shared prosperity and the material health of the environment aren't within the purview of team sports. While much of the criticism of Donald Trump has basis in fact, placing it in a partisan frame grants absolution to Democrats who put forward much the same program. For vitriolic anti-immigrant rants, Bill Clinton was the master. For engineering viciously racist social, political and economic outcomes, Bill Clinton was the master. Barack Obama was the Deporter-in-Chief. It is more than a bit ironic that so many of the videos of children in cages attributed to Donald Trump were from Mr. Obama's tenure in the White House. The political problem for Democrats: everyone who isn't a Democrat knows this. The Democrat's talking points have it that these comparisons support Donald Trump when through the moral, social, political and economic prisms they claim are relevant, they point to the systemic failures of neoliberalism. Pointing out that the establishment Democrats are neoliberal chair warmers incapable of governing only bolsters Republicans through a two-Party lens. What is the political solution when the two-party system is broken? If the fact that Donald Trump is president doesn't suggest that it is, then the election of BoJo (Boris Johnson, the newly elected Prime Minister of Britain) should. So Democrats, quickly, what are the government programs being proposed by the establishment Democrats to resolve climate change, species loss and dead and dying oceans? What are their programs to end militarism and redirect social resources to bettering the lives and livelihoods of the great unwashed? And where were the Democrats when they had the political power to enact these programs? More broadly, if Medicare for All isn't possible because oligarchs and corporate interests control American politics, then what does it matter who the face, in the form of the nominal political leadership, is? Team R and Team D exist to provide the illusion of political competition so as to perpetuate the American program of pillage and plunder. The 'responsible' leadership of Team D supported NAFTA, 'fiscal conservatism,' the racist repression of the 1994 Crime Bill and George W. Bush's war against Iraq. In return, Team R supported the bailout of Wall Street. Team D's explanation for this one-sidedness is that they lack the power to govern. More pointedly, the explanation through their surrogates is that they are feckless, unprincipled and easily rolled. Understand, it is the friends of the Democrats who explain their politics thusly. Predictably, Donald Trump has gained popular approval since being impeached. There are few sights more repellant than the morally, politically and economically compromised millionaires in congress pretending to be morally and / or politically outraged. Two decades into the mass exodus from both of the oligopoly Parties, Team D acolytes appear to be trying to compensate for their political marginalization through the same 'echo chamber' strategy used by WMD dead-enders in an earlier age. Even the FISA court, rubber stamp to the intelligence agencies, felt so abused by the FBI in Russiagate that it demanded that problems with its FISA warrant application 'process' be rectified. Just in time for the 2020 election, Team R is poised to lead the 'heroes of the Resistance' through prime time perp-walks for real and imagined crimes in the persecution of Mr. Trump. Given the current setup, it appears that Team D will not only have failed to remove, constrain, or in any way effectively chastise Donald Trump through impeachment, but the national security and surveillance state officials who led the effort will be charged with actual crimes. Before concluding that doing so is politically motivated, consider how impeachment looks to the half of the country that wasn't swayed by Team D's case. So, this leaves the entirety of officialdom fiddling while they pass newer and better ways to make the rich richer and the rest of us more answerable to corporate and oligarchic power. The perpetual surprise that Democrats 'caved' on Mr. Trump's military budget, his coups in Bolivia and Venezuela and re-passage of the so-called 'Patriot Act' speaks volumes about the power of self-delusion. Team D has been throwing the game in the direction of oligarchy for decades- that is what they exist to do. And when Team D eventually retakes the White House, look for kinder and gentler presentations of Team R's policies. It has been over a year since various environmental committees of the UN began issuing reports with 'drop dead' dates for implementation of far-reaching and logistically involved environmental programs. To date, no movement has been made in the direction of meeting their timelines or goals. Resource imperialism by the U.S. is proceeding apace, with the U.S. sponsored coup in Bolivia securing lithium and the attempted coup in Venezuela securing oil for the environmental apocalypse in the making. The American political establishment appears determined to end human life on the planet. Without spending energy debating various definitions of socialism, Bernie Sanders is the only national political candidate to acknowledge the scale and scope of these problems, let alone organizing the social, political and economic energy needed to address them. Moreover, by shifting resources away from oligarchs and back toward the citizenry through a Job Guaranty aligned with environmental goals and Medicare for all, there is the slightest sliver of hope that humanity might still exist a century from now. But the ease with which Team D was able to gin up a New Cold War is an object lesson in their power to derail political agendas. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r-szoke at illinois.edu Sat Dec 28 19:46:33 2019 From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 19:46:33 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Another cult slouches toward us Message-ID: ~ 2+ years ago: anticipation of the Trump cult The ?Alt-Right? Has Created Alt-Christianity By BRIAN D. MCLAREN >From Time Magazine. August 25, 2017 . . . White nationalism isn?t simply an extremist political ideology. It is an alt-religious movement that provides its adherents with its own twisted version of what all religions supply to adherents: identity, a personal sense of who I am; community, a social sense of where I belong; and purpose, a spiritual sense of why my life matters. If faith communities don?t provide these healthy, life-giving human needs, then death-dealing alt-religions will fill the gap. > Compare : tribalism, nationalism, fascism, populism, Marxism, the Trump cult, etc. (You know you are dealing with a cult when its members start insisting that everybody else is lying to you.) > Sebastian Junger, Tribe: On Homecoming and Belonging (Twelve books, 2016, 168 pages). Joshua Greene, Moral Tribes: Emotion, Reason, and the Gap Between Us and Them (Penguin Press, 2013, 422 pp.) ~ RSz. From r-szoke at illinois.edu Sat Dec 28 19:46:33 2019 From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 19:46:33 +0000 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Another cult slouches toward us Message-ID: ~ 2+ years ago: anticipation of the Trump cult The ?Alt-Right? Has Created Alt-Christianity By BRIAN D. MCLAREN >From Time Magazine. August 25, 2017 . . . White nationalism isn?t simply an extremist political ideology. It is an alt-religious movement that provides its adherents with its own twisted version of what all religions supply to adherents: identity, a personal sense of who I am; community, a social sense of where I belong; and purpose, a spiritual sense of why my life matters. If faith communities don?t provide these healthy, life-giving human needs, then death-dealing alt-religions will fill the gap. > Compare : tribalism, nationalism, fascism, populism, Marxism, the Trump cult, etc. (You know you are dealing with a cult when its members start insisting that everybody else is lying to you.) > Sebastian Junger, Tribe: On Homecoming and Belonging (Twelve books, 2016, 168 pages). Joshua Greene, Moral Tribes: Emotion, Reason, and the Gap Between Us and Them (Penguin Press, 2013, 422 pp.) ~ RSz. From jbn at forestfield.org Sun Dec 29 01:26:15 2019 From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 19:26:15 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Russiagator Rachel Maddow is losing friends! Message-ID: <9a3d4cfb-bde8-53ff-4ffb-19df57537ee8@forestfield.org> The Washington Post surprises with some journalism yet again! You'll recall that they recently published the Afghanistan Papers which clearly explains that we're spending billions every month on that war despite that "we haven't the foggiest idea what we're doing". Now Eric Wemple has published an op-ed in the Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/12/26/rachel-maddow-rooted-steele-dossier-be-true-then-it-fell-apart/) which is years late to showing up the fraud that Rachel Maddow has become. She, like Marcy Wheeler wasn't always like this. Both Maddow and Wheeler used to say sensible things backed by evidence. Wheeler became another Russiagator who receives considerable coverage on Democracy Now. Aaron Mat? debunked her long-winded and evidenceless explanations during his short tenure at The Real News. It's probably no coincidence that Maddow's switch to neoliberalism and neoconservatism (insofar as Russiagate backs Russian sanctions and sanctions are war on the poor) coincided with hosting her MSNBC show. Credit where credit is due: Let's not forget that Aaron Mat? & Glenn Greenwald were onto Maddow's scam years ago. And their expos?s were better done than Wemple's. Aaron Mat? on "MSNBC?s Rachel Maddow Sees a ?Russia Connection? Lurking Around Every Corner" https://theintercept.com/2017/04/12/msnbcs-rachel-maddow-sees-a-russia-connection-lurking-around-every-corner/ Glenn Greenwald on "Rachel Maddow?s Exclusive ?Scoop? About a Fake NSA Document Raises Several Key Questions" https://theintercept.com/2017/07/07/rachel-maddows-exclusive-scoop-about-a-fake-nsa-document-raises-several-key-questions/ So why isn't Mat? still with The Intercept now? While Greenwald reportedly enjoys editorial immunity in his founding deal with The Intercept, Mat? told Jimmy Dore: From around 27m07s into https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS0AlApiWLs > Jimmy Dore: But that's what most of the people in journalism are about > -- they're about their career and they don't have a lot of courage. > Because that's what it takes to do this; it took a lot of guts to stick > your chin out and do this and thank God you found someone like Katrina > Vanden Heuvel over at The Nation to champion your writing otherwise you > would have been spending [your time], you and me over on our jagoff > YouTube channel and nobody would have been getting awards. > > Aaron Mat?: It's true. It's true. It's true. Listen, I can tell you > that I tried to write this stuff at The Intercept. It wasn't welcome > there. I wrote one piece about Rachel Maddow -- you covered this on your > show, I wrote that piece about Rachel Maddow and talking about how she > covered Russia more than all other issues combined and going through > and debunking a lot of her conspiracy theories; basically, arguing very > politely that she was a propagandist. That piece did very well but > after that I was never welcome back at The Intercept again. And I tried, > you know. And I thought that of all outlets, an outlet that calls > itself fearless and adversarial would wanna put resources that > challenging the claims of intelligence officials like John Brennan and > challenging this conspiracy theory that was so widespread across the > corporate media. But they weren't interested, and instead they went and > hired Jim Risen. > > [Jimmy Dore throws his head back and laughs.] Russiagate debunking would eventually give Mat? cause to no longer work with 3 news outlets but this same reporting would later earn him an Izzy award. - Democracy Now -- where Mat? disagreed with chief host Amy Goodman's take on the fake Syrian gas attack near Douma (Mat?'s evidence-based approach seems to be vindicated by the scientists at the OPCW who have now multiply leaked their own findings indicating that the gas canisters were "manually placed" where the canisters were found and not dropped from the air). Goodman repeated Russiagate corporate narratives including echoing the now shameful phrase "it's the beginning of the end [for President Trump]" in at least two interviews with other guests (Marcy Wheeler & Kshama Sawant). Footage of Goodman saying this line is part of a infamous sequence of corporate-friendly media outlets saying this line and "the walls are closing in", "a bombshell report", "Trump is finished/done/in 'big' or 'a lot of' trouble", "This is the date everything changed -- mark it down", and more dating back to February 2017. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwW9RZCEydw for a mirror of this and see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdHtAzFNwjE for Jimmy Dore & co's take on this video. - The Real News Network (TRNN) -- Mat? had a short series of recorded and aired disagreements with TRNN chief Paul Jay (which included discussions about Russiagate). Jay seemed ambivalent about Russiagate. Jay kept another TRNN host -- Russiagate supporter Marc Jacobs -- on the network where Jacobs remains today. Jay and his wife were allegedly recently pushed out of TRNN. Mat? now runs his own show, "Pushback with Aaron Mat?" as part of the Grayzone Project with independent journalists Max Blumenthal, Ben Norton, and Anya Parampil (see https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAZrqdbdGGQyeZmHn7ypybTcm1qPsBRUB). He also publishes with The Nation. Greenwald summarized his own article above when he gave Maddow an "honorable mention" in the "Ten Most Embarrassing U.S. Media Failures on the Trump-Russia Story" From https://theintercept.com/2019/01/20/beyond-buzzfeed-the-10-worst-most-embarrassing-u-s-media-failures-on-the-trumprussia-story/ > Rachel Maddow devoted 20 minutes at the start of her show to very > melodramatically claiming a highly sophisticated party tried to trick > her by sending her a fake Top Secret document modeled after the one > published by the Intercept, and said it could only have come from the > U.S. Government (or the Intercept) since the person obtained the > document before it was published by us and thus must have had special > access to it; in fact, Maddow and NBC completely misread the metadata on > the document; the fake sent to Maddow was created after we published the > document, and was sent to her by a random member of the public who took > the document from the Intercept?s site and doctored it to see if she?d > fall for an obvious scam. Maddow?s entire timeline, on which her whole > melodramatic conspiracy theory rested, was fictitious. Maddow fell for it. Mission accomplished. The Washington Post has a 6-part op-ed "on the media?s handling of the Steele dossier". Maddow's endless stumping for Russiagate is part 5 which concludes: > When small bits of news arose in favor of the dossier, the franchise > MSNBC host pumped air into them. At least some of her many fans surely > came away from her broadcasts thinking the dossier was a serious piece > of investigative research, not the flimflam, quick-twitch game of > telephone outlined in the Horowitz report. She seemed to be rooting for > the document. > > And when large bits of news arose against the dossier, Maddow found > other topics more compelling. > > She was there for the bunkings, absent for the debunkings ? a pattern of > misleading and dishonest asymmetry. -J From carl at newsfromneptune.com Sun Dec 29 02:34:35 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 20:34:35 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] NFN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71758559-40B4-429A-B3D9-2839B730B65E@newsfromneptune.com> The SPD was a self-proclaimed socialist party. "Established in 1863, the SPD is by far the oldest existing political party represented in the German Parliament and was one of the first Marxist-influenced parties in the world. It was illegal under the Anti-Socialist Laws from 1878 to 1890. During the First World War, the party split into a pro-war mainstream and the pacifist Independent Social Democratic Party, a part of which went on to form the Communist Party of Germany. The social democrats came to power during the 1918?19 revolution. During the Weimar Republic, the SPD was the strongest party until 1932 and Friedrich Ebert served as the first President of Germany. During the Nazi era (1933?45), the SPD was banned, and social democrats offered resistance against Hitler's dictatorship... "After the SPD supported German involvement in World War I in 1915, Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht co-founded the anti-war Spartacus League (Spartakusbund) which eventually became the KPD. During the November Revolution, she co-founded the newspaper Die Rote Fahne (The Red Flag), the central organ of the Spartacist movement. Luxemburg considered the Spartacist uprising of January 1919 a blunder, but supported the attempted overthrow of the government and rejected any attempt at a negotiated solution. Friedrich Ebert's majority SPD government crushed the revolt and the Spartakusbund by sending in the Freikorps, government-sponsored paramilitary groups consisting mostly of World War I veterans. Freikorps troops captured and summarily executed Luxemburg and Liebknecht during the rebellion. Luxemburg's body was thrown in the Landwehr Canal in Berlin.? Wikipedia See now . > On Dec 28, 2019, at 7:47 PM, Karen Aram wrote: > > Excellent program, some of my thoughts: > > Carl, I thought it was clarified that Rosa Luxemberg was murdered by the Social Democrats of Germany? I do think that needs to be clarified as was suggested previously by David Johnson. > > Howie Hawkins support for ?russiagate,? is the reason many of us identifying as Greens, have difficulty supporting him for President. H.H. has a long admirable record as a labor leader, its said, he introduced the Green New Deal, I thought it was Ralph Nader, However if he is so ignorant of foreign policy issues, which includes US propaganda, then he should not be the Presidential candidate for the Green Party. > > I?m pleased to see positive reference of the WSWS.Org. as I have been supportive of them, generally speaking, for years but felt quite isolated in this respect. > > I know little if nothing about the problems related to Unit 4, but I loved David?s letter because it addressed the issue with analysis that could be and should be applied to so many issues we are dealing with. Identity Politics, becomes a worn label, but liberalism focusing on social problems has us running around like chicken little, screaming ?discrimination,? when in fact the sky really is falling. > > In Thailand, given Thai Buddhism is very tolerant, discrimination against gays and trans appears not to exist, primarily due to well known privileged elites being known gays or trans. At first glance it appears admirable, but upon close examination one sees the awful destruction, and ruined lives of those gays and trans being exploited, because they are poor. > > > > > > > > > From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Sun Dec 29 16:39:03 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 10:39:03 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Russiagator Rachel Maddow is losing friends! In-Reply-To: <9a3d4cfb-bde8-53ff-4ffb-19df57537ee8@forestfield.org> References: <9a3d4cfb-bde8-53ff-4ffb-19df57537ee8@forestfield.org> Message-ID: <001b01d5be66$7cf302a0$76d907e0$@comcast.net> Thanks so much for posting this Jeff ! David J. -----Original Message----- From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of J.B. Nicholson via Peace-discuss Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2019 7:26 PM To: Peace Discuss Cc: J.B. Nicholson Subject: [Peace-discuss] Russiagator Rachel Maddow is losing friends! The Washington Post surprises with some journalism yet again! You'll recall that they recently published the Afghanistan Papers which clearly explains that we're spending billions every month on that war despite that "we haven't the foggiest idea what we're doing". Now Eric Wemple has published an op-ed in the Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/12/26/rachel-maddow-rooted-steele-dossier-be-true-then-it-fell-apart/) which is years late to showing up the fraud that Rachel Maddow has become. She, like Marcy Wheeler wasn't always like this. Both Maddow and Wheeler used to say sensible things backed by evidence. Wheeler became another Russiagator who receives considerable coverage on Democracy Now. Aaron Mat? debunked her long-winded and evidenceless explanations during his short tenure at The Real News. It's probably no coincidence that Maddow's switch to neoliberalism and neoconservatism (insofar as Russiagate backs Russian sanctions and sanctions are war on the poor) coincided with hosting her MSNBC show. Credit where credit is due: Let's not forget that Aaron Mat? & Glenn Greenwald were onto Maddow's scam years ago. And their expos?s were better done than Wemple's. Aaron Mat? on "MSNBC?s Rachel Maddow Sees a ?Russia Connection? Lurking Around Every Corner" https://theintercept.com/2017/04/12/msnbcs-rachel-maddow-sees-a-russia-connection-lurking-around-every-corner/ Glenn Greenwald on "Rachel Maddow?s Exclusive ?Scoop? About a Fake NSA Document Raises Several Key Questions" https://theintercept.com/2017/07/07/rachel-maddows-exclusive-scoop-about-a-fake-nsa-document-raises-several-key-questions/ So why isn't Mat? still with The Intercept now? While Greenwald reportedly enjoys editorial immunity in his founding deal with The Intercept, Mat? told Jimmy Dore: From around 27m07s into https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS0AlApiWLs > Jimmy Dore: But that's what most of the people in journalism are about > -- they're about their career and they don't have a lot of courage. > Because that's what it takes to do this; it took a lot of guts to stick > your chin out and do this and thank God you found someone like Katrina > Vanden Heuvel over at The Nation to champion your writing otherwise you > would have been spending [your time], you and me over on our jagoff > YouTube channel and nobody would have been getting awards. > > Aaron Mat?: It's true. It's true. It's true. Listen, I can tell you > that I tried to write this stuff at The Intercept. It wasn't welcome > there. I wrote one piece about Rachel Maddow -- you covered this on your > show, I wrote that piece about Rachel Maddow and talking about how she > covered Russia more than all other issues combined and going through > and debunking a lot of her conspiracy theories; basically, arguing very > politely that she was a propagandist. That piece did very well but > after that I was never welcome back at The Intercept again. And I tried, > you know. And I thought that of all outlets, an outlet that calls > itself fearless and adversarial would wanna put resources that > challenging the claims of intelligence officials like John Brennan and > challenging this conspiracy theory that was so widespread across the > corporate media. But they weren't interested, and instead they went and > hired Jim Risen. > > [Jimmy Dore throws his head back and laughs.] Russiagate debunking would eventually give Mat? cause to no longer work with 3 news outlets but this same reporting would later earn him an Izzy award. - Democracy Now -- where Mat? disagreed with chief host Amy Goodman's take on the fake Syrian gas attack near Douma (Mat?'s evidence-based approach seems to be vindicated by the scientists at the OPCW who have now multiply leaked their own findings indicating that the gas canisters were "manually placed" where the canisters were found and not dropped from the air). Goodman repeated Russiagate corporate narratives including echoing the now shameful phrase "it's the beginning of the end [for President Trump]" in at least two interviews with other guests (Marcy Wheeler & Kshama Sawant). Footage of Goodman saying this line is part of a infamous sequence of corporate-friendly media outlets saying this line and "the walls are closing in", "a bombshell report", "Trump is finished/done/in 'big' or 'a lot of' trouble", "This is the date everything changed -- mark it down", and more dating back to February 2017. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwW9RZCEydw for a mirror of this and see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdHtAzFNwjE for Jimmy Dore & co's take on this video. - The Real News Network (TRNN) -- Mat? had a short series of recorded and aired disagreements with TRNN chief Paul Jay (which included discussions about Russiagate). Jay seemed ambivalent about Russiagate. Jay kept another TRNN host -- Russiagate supporter Marc Jacobs -- on the network where Jacobs remains today. Jay and his wife were allegedly recently pushed out of TRNN. Mat? now runs his own show, "Pushback with Aaron Mat?" as part of the Grayzone Project with independent journalists Max Blumenthal, Ben Norton, and Anya Parampil (see https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAZrqdbdGGQyeZmHn7ypybTcm1qPsBRUB). He also publishes with The Nation. Greenwald summarized his own article above when he gave Maddow an "honorable mention" in the "Ten Most Embarrassing U.S. Media Failures on the Trump-Russia Story" From https://theintercept.com/2019/01/20/beyond-buzzfeed-the-10-worst-most-embarrassing-u-s-media-failures-on-the-trumprussia-story/ > Rachel Maddow devoted 20 minutes at the start of her show to very > melodramatically claiming a highly sophisticated party tried to trick > her by sending her a fake Top Secret document modeled after the one > published by the Intercept, and said it could only have come from the > U.S. Government (or the Intercept) since the person obtained the > document before it was published by us and thus must have had special > access to it; in fact, Maddow and NBC completely misread the metadata on > the document; the fake sent to Maddow was created after we published the > document, and was sent to her by a random member of the public who took > the document from the Intercept?s site and doctored it to see if she?d > fall for an obvious scam. Maddow?s entire timeline, on which her whole > melodramatic conspiracy theory rested, was fictitious. Maddow fell for it. Mission accomplished. The Washington Post has a 6-part op-ed "on the media?s handling of the Steele dossier". Maddow's endless stumping for Russiagate is part 5 which concludes: > When small bits of news arose in favor of the dossier, the franchise > MSNBC host pumped air into them. At least some of her many fans surely > came away from her broadcasts thinking the dossier was a serious piece > of investigative research, not the flimflam, quick-twitch game of > telephone outlined in the Horowitz report. She seemed to be rooting for > the document. > > And when large bits of news arose against the dossier, Maddow found > other topics more compelling. > > She was there for the bunkings, absent for the debunkings ? a pattern of > misleading and dishonest asymmetry. -J _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net Sun Dec 29 17:08:47 2019 From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 11:08:47 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Maddow Meltdown: In Defense To OAN Lawsuit, Host Argues Her Words Are Not Facts Message-ID: <002001d5be6a$a2c7edc0$e857c940$@comcast.net> Maddow Meltdown: In Defense To OAN Lawsuit, Host Argues Her Words Are Not Facts Profile picture for user Tyler Durden by Tyler Durden Sun, 12/29/2019 - 11:25 Back in September, we reported that TV network OAN had filed a lawsuit against Rachel Maddow for the time the host said that OAN "really, literally is paid Russian propaganda." Now, Maddow finds herself having to come up with a defense for her statement in court. And she has also apparently hired Lionel Hutz as her legal adviser. According to Culttture, her lawyers argued in a recent motion that ".the liberal host was clearly offering up her 'own unique expression' of her views to capture what she saw as the 'ridiculous' nature of the undisputed facts. Her comment, therefore, is a quintessential statement 'of rhetorical hyperbole, incapable of being proved true or false." Oh, it's capable of being proved false, alright. Maddow had previously claimed, on air, about one of OAN's reporters: "In this case, the most obsequiously pro-Trump right wing news outlet in America is really literally is paid Russian propaganda," and added, "Their on-air politics reporter (Kristian Rouz) is paid by the Russian government to produce propaganda for that government." The testimony of UC Santa Barbara linguistics professor Stefan Thomas Gries, however, stands at odds with Maddow's defense. Gries said: "It is very unlikely that an average or reasonable/ordinary viewer would consider the sentence in question to be a statement of opinion." Gries continued: "I am the second most widely-cited cognitive linguist and sixth most widely-cited living corpus linguist. The field of cognitive linguistics draws from both linguistics and psychology and studies how language interacts with cognition." OAN had filed the defamation suit in federal court in San Diego, according to AP. OAN is a small, family owned conservative network that is based in San Diego and has received favorable Tweets from the President. It is seen as a competitor to Fox News. OAN's lawsuit claims that Maddow's comments were retaliation after OAN President Charles Herring accused Comcast of censorship. The suit said that Comcast refuses to carry its channel because "counters the liberal politics of Comcast's own news channel, MSNBC." It was about a week after Herring e-mailed a Comcast executive when Maddow opened her show by referring to a Daily Beast report that claimed an OAN employee also worked for Sputnik News, which has ties to the Russian government. Maddow said: "In this case, the most obsequiously pro-Trump right-wing news outlet in America really literally is paid Russian propaganda. Their on-air U.S. politics reporter is paid by the Russian government to produce propaganda for that government." Except Maddow, likely still upset from spending 3 years trying to promulgate a Russian hoax that didn't exist, didn't quite get her facts straight. Big surprise. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Sun Dec 29 17:15:26 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 11:15:26 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Trump & US warmongering Message-ID: <99D8CFCC-C4AF-4571-BC49-00C2E4488B7C@newsfromneptune.com> This is the reason for the US political establishment's rabid efforts to replace (not just defeat) Trump. The foreign policy of that establishment (''deep state') is based fundamentally on opposing - by war and war provocations - those whom Z. Brzezinski called "peer competitors in Eurasia" (Russia and China), for fear their development - and the economic integration of Eurasia - will interfere with the US one percent's domination of the world economy. That's the basis of the neocon and neolib policies (more war and more austerity), followed by all recent US administrations. Trump must be destroyed because of his threat to alter those policies, which redound to the profit of the one percent, even though he's made few serious moves in that direction. ?CGE From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Sun Dec 29 17:43:26 2019 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 11:43:26 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Trump & US warmongering In-Reply-To: <99D8CFCC-C4AF-4571-BC49-00C2E4488B7C@newsfromneptune.com> References: <99D8CFCC-C4AF-4571-BC49-00C2E4488B7C@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: OK, but given that Trump's signature "domestic" achievement is to give multiple billions of dollars to the wealthiest 10/1/.1 %, it seems like rather understatement to say that he's made "few serious moves" to threaten neoliberalism. It's kind of like saying that Al Capone made "few serious moves" to end Prohibition. On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 11:15 AM C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > > > This is the reason for the US political establishment's rabid efforts to > replace (not just defeat) Trump. > > The foreign policy of that establishment (''deep state') is based > fundamentally on opposing - by war and war provocations - those whom Z. > Brzezinski called "peer competitors in Eurasia" (Russia and China), for > fear their development - and the economic integration of Eurasia - will > interfere with the US one percent's domination of the world economy. > > That's the basis of the neocon and neolib policies (more war and more > austerity), followed by all recent US administrations. Trump must be > destroyed because of his threat to alter those policies, which redound to > the profit of the one percent, even though he's made few serious moves in > that direction. > > ?CGE > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Sun Dec 29 18:44:31 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 12:44:31 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Trump & US warmongering In-Reply-To: References: <99D8CFCC-C4AF-4571-BC49-00C2E4488B7C@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: True enough. I was thinking of his largely ineffectual announcements of withdrawal from Syria and Afghanistan. > On Dec 29, 2019, at 11:43 AM, David Green via Peace-discuss wrote: > > OK, but given that Trump's signature "domestic" achievement is to give multiple billions of dollars to the wealthiest 10/1/.1 %, it seems like rather understatement to say that he's made "few serious moves" to threaten neoliberalism. It's kind of like saying that Al Capone made "few serious moves" to end Prohibition. > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 11:15 AM C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > > This is the reason for the US political establishment's rabid efforts to replace (not just defeat) Trump. > > The foreign policy of that establishment (''deep state') is based fundamentally on opposing - by war and war provocations - those whom Z. Brzezinski called "peer competitors in Eurasia" (Russia and China), for fear their development - and the economic integration of Eurasia - will interfere with the US one percent's domination of the world economy. > > That's the basis of the neocon and neolib policies (more war and more austerity), followed by all recent US administrations. Trump must be destroyed because of his threat to alter those policies, which redound to the profit of the one percent, even though he's made few serious moves in that direction. > > ?CGE > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From carl at newsfromneptune.com Sun Dec 29 21:19:29 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 15:19:29 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Trump & US warmongering In-Reply-To: References: <99D8CFCC-C4AF-4571-BC49-00C2E4488B7C@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: <7D015F55-385A-4547-BB89-61AE7FF5B859@newsfromneptune.com> https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/12/27/trumps-quest-shatter-gop-economics-reached-its-culmination/ > On Dec 29, 2019, at 11:43 AM, David Green wrote: > > OK, but given that Trump's signature "domestic" achievement is to give multiple billions of dollars to the wealthiest 10/1/.1 %, it seems like rather understatement to say that he's made "few serious moves" to threaten neoliberalism. It's kind of like saying that Al Capone made "few serious moves" to end Prohibition. > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 11:15 AM C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > > This is the reason for the US political establishment's rabid efforts to replace (not just defeat) Trump. > > The foreign policy of that establishment (''deep state') is based fundamentally on opposing - by war and war provocations - those whom Z. Brzezinski called "peer competitors in Eurasia" (Russia and China), for fear their development - and the economic integration of Eurasia - will interfere with the US one percent's domination of the world economy. > > That's the basis of the neocon and neolib policies (more war and more austerity), followed by all recent US administrations. Trump must be destroyed because of his threat to alter those policies, which redound to the profit of the one percent, even though he's made few serious moves in that direction. > > ?CGE > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss From davidgreen50 at gmail.com Sun Dec 29 21:44:42 2019 From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 15:44:42 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Trump & US warmongering In-Reply-To: <7D015F55-385A-4547-BB89-61AE7FF5B859@newsfromneptune.com> References: <99D8CFCC-C4AF-4571-BC49-00C2E4488B7C@newsfromneptune.com> <7D015F55-385A-4547-BB89-61AE7FF5B859@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: >From the perspective of the WP, this is "populism." But not much there in the real world for real people. The trade pacts are still corporate-driven, if I understand them correctly. The fact that the GOP only cares about deficits when the Dems are in power is nothing new. There is nothing here that is even remotely redistributive, especially in the context of the tax cuts to the rich. But I would guess that Al Capone gave some money to an orphanage. On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 3:19 PM C. G. Estabrook wrote: > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/12/27/trumps-quest-shatter-gop-economics-reached-its-culmination/ > > > > On Dec 29, 2019, at 11:43 AM, David Green > wrote: > > > > OK, but given that Trump's signature "domestic" achievement is to give > multiple billions of dollars to the wealthiest 10/1/.1 %, it seems like > rather understatement to say that he's made "few serious moves" to threaten > neoliberalism. It's kind of like saying that Al Capone made "few serious > moves" to end Prohibition. > > > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 11:15 AM C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > < > https://www.rt.com/news/477063-putin-trump-phone-call-terrorism-prevent/> > > > > > > This is the reason for the US political establishment's rabid efforts to > replace (not just defeat) Trump. > > > > The foreign policy of that establishment (''deep state') is based > fundamentally on opposing - by war and war provocations - those whom Z. > Brzezinski called "peer competitors in Eurasia" (Russia and China), for > fear their development - and the economic integration of Eurasia - will > interfere with the US one percent's domination of the world economy. > > > > That's the basis of the neocon and neolib policies (more war and more > austerity), followed by all recent US administrations. Trump must be > destroyed because of his threat to alter those policies, which redound to > the profit of the one percent, even though he's made few serious moves in > that direction. > > > > ?CGE > > _______________________________________________ > > Peace-discuss mailing list > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Sun Dec 29 23:40:51 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 17:40:51 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Trump & US warmongering In-Reply-To: References: <99D8CFCC-C4AF-4571-BC49-00C2E4488B7C@newsfromneptune.com> <7D015F55-385A-4547-BB89-61AE7FF5B859@newsfromneptune.com> Message-ID: <669FEEF3-F691-4773-B76F-8655F250FC29@newsfromneptune.com> A fortiori the same could be said (and was) of the New Deal, a more profound transformation - dismissed then (and by some historians now). But I think amidst the assurances that it changes nothing, it?s possible that it does - if only from the opposition it engenders (unfortunate verb?). The populist wave is real (as the oligarchy knows - some are buying islands in the S. Pacific) an has to be dealt with. > On Dec 29, 2019, at 3:44 PM, David Green wrote: > > From the perspective of the WP, this is "populism." But not much there in the real world for real people. The trade pacts are still corporate-driven, if I understand them correctly. The fact that the GOP only cares about deficits when the Dems are in power is nothing new. There is nothing here that is even remotely redistributive, especially in the context of the tax cuts to the rich. But I would guess that Al Capone gave some money to an orphanage. > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 3:19 PM C. G. Estabrook wrote: > https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/12/27/trumps-quest-shatter-gop-economics-reached-its-culmination/ > > > > On Dec 29, 2019, at 11:43 AM, David Green wrote: > > > > OK, but given that Trump's signature "domestic" achievement is to give multiple billions of dollars to the wealthiest 10/1/.1 %, it seems like rather understatement to say that he's made "few serious moves" to threaten neoliberalism. It's kind of like saying that Al Capone made "few serious moves" to end Prohibition. > > > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 11:15 AM C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > > > > > > > > This is the reason for the US political establishment's rabid efforts to replace (not just defeat) Trump. > > > > The foreign policy of that establishment (''deep state') is based fundamentally on opposing - by war and war provocations - those whom Z. Brzezinski called "peer competitors in Eurasia" (Russia and China), for fear their development - and the economic integration of Eurasia - will interfere with the US one percent's domination of the world economy. > > > > That's the basis of the neocon and neolib policies (more war and more austerity), followed by all recent US administrations. Trump must be destroyed because of his threat to alter those policies, which redound to the profit of the one percent, even though he's made few serious moves in that direction. > > > > ?CGE > > _______________________________________________ > > Peace-discuss mailing list > > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > From rsesbenshade at gmail.com Mon Dec 30 15:13:18 2019 From: rsesbenshade at gmail.com (Richard Esbenshade) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 16:13:18 +0100 Subject: [Peace-discuss] campaign video Message-ID: Richard Esbenshade Sat, Dec 28, 2:58 PM (2 days ago) to peace-discuss-request My daughter, former AWARE activist (and *Public i* collective member), Shara, who some of you know, has collaborated (as co-director, producer, cinematographer, editor) on a video to launch the campaign for the New Mexico House of Representatives of her friend, Lyla June Johnston. Lyla, who is Navajo, is running an insurgent, AOC-type, climate crisis-focused campaign against the Speaker of the NM House, who although a Democrat is in the pocket of the oil/fracking industry. You can check it out at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV-C56Wrt9o https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=532691467588670 Please share widely, if you like what you see! Rick Esbenshade -- Richard S. Esbenshade, Ph.D Research Associate Russian, East European and Eurasian Center University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbw292002 at gmail.com Mon Dec 30 17:00:02 2019 From: jbw292002 at gmail.com (John W.) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 11:00:02 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Best Crosstalk ever, with guests Brian Becker of ANSWER and James Jafre former Washington insider. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 10:32 AM Morton K. Brussel via Peace < peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: I agree that this was a brilliant discussion. The only? thing missing?it > was after all a short program? was how global economics enters/is > background for the conflicts. > Why haven?t I heard of these guys before? > Yes, it was good, though hardly revelatory. Some of us understood back in 2000 that the Project For a New American Century was the empty brayings of fools. And when Francis Fukiyama wrote "The End of History".....oh, please. I especially liked it when, in the intro, the host tweaked his bow tie, but after the tweaking it was still just as crooked as it was before. :-) > On Dec 28, 2019, at 11:19 AM, Karen Aram via Peace < > peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atyKF2S4KaQ&fbclid=IwAR3Uy4RAtAb-rXigyizNPff5hpRq9G7_Uhv-WwNBFvi6heS1fDpQPO07Gvs > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at newsfromneptune.com Tue Dec 31 17:18:01 2019 From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:18:01 -0600 Subject: [Peace-discuss] Big stories of 2019 Message-ID: <5D04AAA3-E9E7-474B-A0E4-93F2142F04F3@newsfromneptune.com> https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/12/the-moa-year-in-review.html ? The vindication of Donald Trump by the Mueller and Horowitz 'Russiagate' investigations. The Democrats, driven by the security state, then continued their coup attempt against Trump by impeaching him over 'Ukrainegate'. ? The slow but continuing retreat of the U.S. from the Middle East demonstrated by its lack of reaction even after the attack on the Saudi oil installations and the shooting down of a large U.S. drone by Iran. ? The Boeing 737 MAX disaster. ? The manipulations of reports about alleged chemical incidents in Syria by the OPCW. My predictions on these issue for next year are: ? The unreasonable campaign against Trump will hurt the Democrats in the 2020 elections. Unless something unforeseeable happens Trump will be reelected. ? The U.S. will pull its troops out of Iraq and Syria. ? The MAX will not be allowed back into the air unless Boeing ditches MCAS and finds a better way to make the plane certifiable. ? Mainstream media have suppressed all news about the OPCW scandal. This will only change if major new evidence comes to light. ###