[Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes

Sun Dec 8 20:53:38 UTC 2019

Thanks for your comments, David. I can understand why you have your doubts reading the Morley and Proyect Counterpunch articles. As for me, of course, I wasn’t “there”, so I too must rely on impressions gleaned from what I read and surmise.
 I know how important it is for the “Empire” to subdue Syria (and Iraq, Iran, Yemen, and any other resistors to U.S.interests), and I know how the U.S., via the CIA and its collaborators and proxies, White Helmets included, hides its dirty hands for its “vital” interests. It also is reasonable to wonder why Assad would so blatantly attack targets with toxic gases/chemicals while the U.S. so diligently watches for anything suspicious, all while Assad forces have been gaining control of most of Syria, his country. The U.S. needs little excuse to attack and dismember Syria, only partially  restrained by the presence of Russian forces thereabouts. I’m sure you know all this.

But getting back to th CP articles, which display implicit faith in Human Rights Watch and the OPCW. I’ve long concuded that HRW is not at all a neutral agent. It, with outfits like the NED and USAID, has consistently taken up the cause of American interests. As noted, the White Helmets have been agents of the UK, the USA and others (Emerites, Saudis?) in the fight against Assad. And Louis Proyect, from what I read, is on the same wavelength as the ISO, vehemently anti-Assad for ideological reasons of some sort. However Assad may have been compromised by former behavior, he is currently resisting U.S. control of his land, aided by Iran and Russia, and is in the gunsights of Israel. For me, this is a reason to be defended as long as he so continues. Morley claims to be neutral in his assessments, but he takes for granted the results of the OPCW, albeit while giving some credence to those who were not permied to air their disagreements with the OPCW assessments. I have more faith in the analyses of Caitlin Johnstone, Jonathan Steele, Max Blumenthal, Aaron Maté, Robert Fisk and others than of those like Morley and Proyect (and Counterpunch?) now trying to cast doubt on what seems obvious to opponents to what the U.S. and its clients have been wreaking in the ME and elsewhere. As for Postol, having had trouble getting published by U.S. media is quite unsurprising. Cynicism?!

The Managegement of Savagery,  by Max Blumenthal, although now a little dated, is a better reference for what and how to regard the events in that part of the world.
 A cogent summary of the Douma story is given by

https://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/1199860236946935808?s=20

which concludes that a false flag operation had taken place.

On Dec 8, 2019, at 9:46 AM, David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com<mailto:davidgreen50 at gmail.com>> wrote:

Mort, I appreciate your comments and critique, and would be more than happy to understand beyond that shadow of the doubt that these indeed were "false flag" operations. I certainly don't have the technical competence to judge either Postol's article are the critique of his article by Jefferson Morley on this weekend's Counterpunch, which has also featured Louis Proyect's rejection of the "false flag" thesis. In any event, these discussions about Douma etc. obscure larger debates about the nature and origins of the regime change operation, which only feeds the "Assadist" charges against various characters.

Nevertheless, I am indeed skeptical about someone like Vanessa Beeley, who seems naive to me in her regard for the Syrian regime.

Unfortunately, the nature of the discussions around OPCW etc. are that people talk past each other, they never debate in good faith. Even given the rare opportunity to actually deploy scientific evidence and methodology, there seems to be no good faith effort to ascertain the evidence and induce whatever truth might be rigorously concluded in relation to a clear methodology. I don't think it's by accident that such a forum does not really exist, as Postol implied in his interview with Aaron Mate.

DG

On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 11:20 PM Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
My response to the show discussions is that it was at best mixed. It ended with reflections of David Green expressing doubts about the Douma incident, which basically expressed his ignorance. T. Postal was pretty clear about what could have occurred. The levels of chlorine gas found was said to be background Chlorine levels, but more importantly there were the leaks of withheld information by the two whistleblowers of the OECD. Seemed pretty clear to me that this was a false flag operation.
 The opening discussion about how identity politics obscures the class aspect of  inequities I found to be turgid, whatever the ambiguous truths are to the arguments presented. Then there came the nonsensical sly apologetics regarding what Trump really wants.  Caitlin Johnstone had a pertinent discussion about this [https://consortiumnews.com/2019/11/19/25-times-trump-has-been-dangerously-hawkish-on-russia/], leaving aside Trump's actions towards Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, Yemen, Bolivia, Iran, Syria,… And calling Assad truely a monster?? seemd gratuitous.
But the discussion about the Democratic candidates, Harris and Butagieg(sp?) seemed just right, as did the remarks about the weird impeachment phenomenon.

On Dec 6, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:

Good show

My thoughts while watching:

It might be of value to mention that CLR James, author of the Black Jacobins, Adolph Reed and others discussing “race as not the issue, focus should be on class,” are not white. In a recent interview with Adolph Reed he claimed to have been a former Black Panther.

Many believe Kamala Harris failure to generate support, was due to her tough law and order record when a DA in SF. She was no liberal. She is now playing the race card by claiming, “America isn’t ready for a woman President, a black woman President.”

As to Pete Buttagieg, it might be worth promoting the podcast discussion referred to by Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal. Their interview with journalist Peter Van Buren was very insightful. My employer had me charge Kinsey Consultants $1,000 an hour, consulting with me. Had I known what I know now, I would have charged double.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121&notif_id=1575653773190302&notif_t=live_video <https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121&notif_id=1575653773190302&notif_t=live_video>

Louis Proyect, the former ISO leadership, the local Black Rose Anarchists, and many others have lost credibility as “Leftists,” when they support the USG intervention and war in Syria. Many are Trotskyist organizations, as claimed by Diana Johnstone, but not all, the WSWS.ORG<http://wsws.org/> does not support imperialism in Syria.

Socialists/Communists generally do not support imperialism in Syria or anywhere else, if they do one should question there true intentions.

On Dec 6, 2019, at 16:12, J.B. Nicholson via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:

News from Neptune #442
A "Fight Race Reductionism" edition
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6tW-stKUKc

A list of links to items referenced on the show.

Tariq Ali on "A Conversation with C.L.R. James"
https://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1980/07/tariq-ali.htm

Briahna Gray on "Beware the Race Reductionist"
https://theintercept.com/2018/08/26/beware-the-race-reductionist/

Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian Gordon Wood on the New York Times’ 1619 Project"
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html

Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian James McPherson on the New York Times’ 1619 Project"
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html

"Black Marxism" by Cedric Robinson
Published: October 2005
Complete book: https://libcom.org/files/Black%20Marxism-Cedric%20J.%20Robinson.pdf
Paperback ISBN: 978-0-8078-4829-6
eBook ISBN: 978-0-8078-7612-1

Gregory Myerson on "Tortilla Curtain and The Ecology of Fear"
https://projects.ncsu.edu/project/acontracorriente/fall_04/Meyerson.pdf

"The Wages of Whiteness: Race and the Making of the American Working Class" by David Roediger
Complete book: https://caringlabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/roediger-the-wages-of-whiteness-race-and-the-making-of-the-american-working-class.pdf

Noel Ignatiev and "Race Traitor"
Winter 2005 number 16: https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Race-Traitor-%E2%84%96-16-Winter-2005.pdf

Articles about Noel Ignatiev
https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/15/noel-ignatiev-remembering-a-comrade-and-a-friend/
http://www.renegadetribune.com/genocidal-jew-noel-ignatiev-is-dead-good-riddance/

"How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev
ISBN: 0415918251
ISBN13: 9780415918251

Theodore W. Allen on "On Roediger's Wages of Whiteness"
http://www.elegantbrain.com/edu4/classes/readings/race-roediger-allen.html

Cedric Johnson on "The Wages of Roediger: Why Three Decades of Whiteness Studies Has Not Produced the Left We Need"
https://nonsite.org/article/the-wages-of-roediger-why-three-decades-of-whiteness-studies-has-not-produced-the-left-we-need

Barbara J. Fields on "Slavery, Race and Ideology in the United States of America"
https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2763-slavery-race-and-ideology-in-the-united-states-of-america

David Green's "Wealth gap" post to peace-discuss
https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051656.html

David Green's recent letters to the editor of the News-Gazette
https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-harassment-study-is-silly-propaganda/article_9d4eee6b-a8fa-5d8a-8609-169c0d256af9.html -- "Harassment study is silly propaganda"
https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor-concerns-voiced-about-bend-the-arc/article_99b2ac36-4279-5cad-8b60-892ca30dde6e.html -- "Concerns voiced about Bend the Arc"

C. G. Estabrook on News-Gazette’s feature “Those Who Served” weekly feature in a letter to the News-Gazette
https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-u-s-has-killed-millions-in/article_87b213e5-9f21-5acf-8f54-df41b18d026d.html

Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow"
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon#Gravity's_Rainbow_(1973)

Moderate Rebels on "What was Pete Buttigieg doing in Iraq?: US gov whistleblower on war profiteering and corruption"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9V-HlSyiwE
https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/moderaterebels/Moderate_Rebels_Pete_Buttigieg_Iraq_Peter_Van_Buren.mp3?dest-id=553365

Alicia Luke on "Buttigieg Admits No Combat Ribbon From Deployment To Afghanistan"
https://freedomoutpost.com/buttigieg-admits-no-combat-ribbon-from-deployment-to-afghanistan/

Louis Proyect on "Douma, Chlorine Gas and Occam’s Razor"
https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/22/douma-chlorine-gas-and-occams-razor/

Jefferson Morley on "Why the Douma Chemical Attack Wasn’t a ‘Managed Massacre’"
https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/06/why-the-douma-chemical-attack-wasnt-a-managed-massacre/

J.B. Nicholson's notes
https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015404.html
https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051610.html

-J
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