[Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes

Tue Dec 10 15:48:48 UTC 2019

“ Whatever his machinations regarding ISO/DSA etc., Proyect is certainly an insidious and destructive ideological force on the so-called left.”

Yes !,  

their favorite pathetic tactic is to call anybody that disagrees with them “ conspiracy theorists “. They have refereed to outstanding independent journalists ; Robert Fisk, Seymour Hirsch, and John Pilger as such. Any information presented that debunks their nonsense is called “ conspiracy theory “ with no other counter argument. Also they call anyone who disagrees with them “ Putin Puppets “ and “ Assad Apologists “…sound familiar ?

As Karen Aram pointed out accurately when she was in a radio debate with my former friend John Reimann about Syria, she stated to Reimann – “ Everything you say and how you say it sounds identical to CNN. “

David J.

From: David Green [mailto:davidgreen50 at gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2019 9:32 AM
To: David Johnson
Cc: C. G. Estabrook; Peace-discuss
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes

Whatever his machinations regarding ISO/DSA etc., Proyect is certainly an insidious and destructive ideological force on the so-called left.

He consistently denigrates Blumenthal/Norton/Khalek in ways that implicitly promote U.S. imperialism in the Middle East. He never addresses Blumenthal's argument regarding the "Management of Savagery."

He uses "Bellingcat" as his bible.

He is foul-mouthed and dismissive of his critics on his website <https://louisproyect.org/2019/11/22/douma-chlorine-gas-and-occams-razor/> , while maintaining his civil demeanor for Counterpunch (see comments at link). Counterpunch has moved away from its "catholic" approach that Carl often refers to on our program.

He consistently denigrates Adolph Reed and Walter Benn Michaels (class/race) in ways that promote liberal identity politics, while undermining a class analysis, all while claiming to stand apart from Democratic Party politics and any pragmatic support for Bernie Sanders. It's a cynical ideological and political mess.

He of course denigrates anything that can be called a red-brown alliance, even regarding anti-imperialism/war issues, promoting the ridiculous work of Alexander Reid Ross.

His affinity with David Roediger's "wages of whiteness" thesis is in explicit opposition to the sort of analysis put forward by Reed, Michaels, the Fields Sisters, and Cedric Johnson, whose critique of Roediger on nonsite.org is essential reading.

He does all this while maintaining a "respectable" presence as a movie critic on Counterpunch, which has also published his efforts to debunk the false flag argument in relation to Syria/Douma.

His administration of the Marxmail list is helpful as a source of daily references, but also provides a home for "Assadist" accusations, including by John Reimann, the "Oakland Socialist," whom even Proyect had to dress down during the Venezuelan coup events etc.

Proyect's critiques and denigration regarding what he calls "political Marxism" and the issue of the transition to capitalism (Robert Brenner, etc.) are opaque, overly-heated, confusing, and often irrelevant to any understanding of current events. Its seems to be a way of asserting some bizarre form of scholarly superiority, which is often used as the basis for ad hominem arguments in relation debates around current issues.

Unfortunately, one of his acolytes appears to be Monthly Review editor Michael Yates, for whom I previously had some respect.

It's all a strange combination of the historical, the esoteric, and the political, which undermines a clear perspective on what is being done in the present and what needs to be done about it.

DG

On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 6:57 AM David Johnson via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

His support for every regime change target of the U.S. government.

Also, his sneaking in speakers at the last DSA conference in Chicago, of people who are directly funded by the NED. There was a big push back on this by DSA members from all over the country. So much so that the DSA national leadership will now screen all speakers of future workshops. Fortunately the 3 different workshops that had such speakers were only three or over thirty and they were sparsely attended.

He and his co-horts , many the former national leadership of ISO ( International Socialist organization ) are a new generation of " Schachmanites ". Named after labor leader max schachmann, who was a TRotskist who became a cold war fanatic and worked for the national AFL-CIO  and it's Institute for free Labor development, along with another of his ilk, Jay Lovestone, during the 1950's and 60's. . They were instrumental in wealening Left wing Unions in France, Germany, Italy and the UK after World War 2, as well as other Left populist Unions and organizations in later years in Latin America.

David J.

-----Original Message-----
From: C. G. Estabrook [mailto:carl at newsfromneptune.com] 
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2019 10:52 PM
To: David Johnson
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes

David—

What evidence is there of Proyect’s being an agent of the U.S. State Department and the National Endowment for Democracy?

Regards, CGE

> On Dec 8, 2019, at 5:27 PM, David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> Louis Proyect is a Shachtmanite pseudo Leftist who is a pro U.S. imperialist agent of the U.S. State Department and the National Endowment for Democracy.
>  
> He has ZERO credibility.
>  
> David J.
>  
> From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of David Green via Peace-discuss
> Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2019 9:46 AM
> To: Brussel, Morton K
> Cc: Peace Discuss; J.B. Nicholson; Peace; David Green; Karen Aram; C G Estabrook
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune #442 notes
>  
> Mort, I appreciate your comments and critique, and would be more than happy to understand beyond that shadow of the doubt that these indeed were "false flag" operations. I certainly don't have the technical competence to judge either Postol's article are the critique of his article by Jefferson Morley on this weekend's Counterpunch, which has also featured Louis Proyect's rejection of the "false flag" thesis. In any event, these discussions about Douma etc. obscure larger debates about the nature and origins of the regime change operation, which only feeds the "Assadist" charges against various characters.
>  
> Nevertheless, I am indeed skeptical about someone like Vanessa Beeley, who seems naive to me in her regard for the Syrian regime.
>  
> Unfortunately, the nature of the discussions around OPCW etc. are that people talk past each other, they never debate in good faith. Even given the rare opportunity to actually deploy scientific evidence and methodology, there seems to be no good faith effort to ascertain the evidence and induce whatever truth might be rigorously concluded in relation to a clear methodology. I don't think it's by accident that such a forum does not really exist, as Postol implied in his interview with Aaron Mate.
>  
> DG
>  
> On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 11:20 PM Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> My response to the show discussions is that it was at best mixed. It ended with reflections of David Green expressing doubts about the Douma incident, which basically expressed his ignorance. T. Postal was pretty clear about what could have occurred. The levels of chlorine gas found was said to be background Chlorine levels, but more importantly there were the leaks of withheld information by the two whistleblowers of the OECD. Seemed pretty clear to me that this was a false flag operation.  
>>  The opening discussion about how identity politics obscures the class aspect of  inequities I found to be turgid, whatever the ambiguous truths are to the arguments presented. Then there came the nonsensical sly apologetics regarding what Trump really wants.  Caitlin Johnstone had a pertinent discussion about this [https://consortiumnews.com/2019/11/19/25-times-trump-has-been-dangerously-hawkish-on-russia/], leaving aside Trump's actions towards Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, Yemen, Bolivia, Iran, Syria,… And calling Assad truely a monster?? seemd gratuitous. 
>> But the discussion about the Democratic candidates, Harris and Butagieg(sp?) seemed just right, as did the remarks about the weird impeachment phenomenon. 
>> 
>> 
>> On Dec 6, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>  
>> Good show
>> 
>> My thoughts while watching: 
>> 
>> It might be of value to mention that CLR James, author of the Black Jacobins, Adolph Reed and others discussing “race as not the issue, focus should be on class,” are not white. In a recent interview with Adolph Reed he claimed to have been a former Black Panther. 
>> 
>> Many believe Kamala Harris failure to generate support, was due to her tough law and order record when a DA in SF. She was no liberal. She is now playing the race card by claiming, “America isn’t ready for a woman President, a black woman President.”
>> 
>> As to Pete Buttagieg, it might be worth promoting the podcast discussion referred to by Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal. Their interview with journalist Peter Van Buren was very insightful. My employer had me charge Kinsey Consultants $1,000 an hour, consulting with me. Had I known what I know now, I would have charged double.
>> 
>> https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121 <https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121&notif_id=1575653773190302&notif_t=live_video> &notif_id=1575653773190302&notif_t=live_video <https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121 <https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2213779038916121&notif_id=1575653773190302&notif_t=live_video> &notif_id=1575653773190302&notif_t=live_video>
>> 
>> Louis Proyect, the former ISO leadership, the local Black Rose Anarchists, and many others have lost credibility as “Leftists,” when they support the USG intervention and war in Syria. Many are Trotskyist organizations, as claimed by Diana Johnstone, but not all, the WSWS.ORG does not support imperialism in Syria.  
>> 
>> Socialists/Communists generally do not support imperialism in Syria or anywhere else, if they do one should question there true intentions.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Dec 6, 2019, at 16:12, J.B. Nicholson via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> 
>> News from Neptune #442
>> A "Fight Race Reductionism" edition
>> Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6tW-stKUKc
>> 
>> A list of links to items referenced on the show.
>> 
>> Tariq Ali on "A Conversation with C.L.R. James"
>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1980/07/tariq-ali.htm
>> 
>> Briahna Gray on "Beware the Race Reductionist"
>> https://theintercept.com/2018/08/26/beware-the-race-reductionist/
>> 
>> Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian Gordon Wood on the New York Times’ 1619 Project"
>> https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/wood-n28.html
>> 
>> Tom Mackaman on "An interview with historian James McPherson on the New York Times’ 1619 Project"
>> https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/14/mcph-n14.html
>> 
>> "Black Marxism" by Cedric Robinson
>> Published: October 2005
>> Complete book: https://libcom.org/files/Black%20Marxism-Cedric%20J.%20Robinson.pdf
>> Paperback ISBN: 978-0-8078-4829-6
>> eBook ISBN: 978-0-8078-7612-1
>> 
>> Gregory Myerson on "Tortilla Curtain and The Ecology of Fear"
>> https://projects.ncsu.edu/project/acontracorriente/fall_04/Meyerson.pdf
>> 
>> "The Wages of Whiteness: Race and the Making of the American Working Class" by David Roediger
>> Complete book: https://caringlabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/roediger-the-wages-of-whiteness-race-and-the-making-of-the-american-working-class.pdf
>> 
>> Noel Ignatiev and "Race Traitor"
>> Winter 2005 number 16: https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Race-Traitor-%E2%84%96-16-Winter-2005.pdf
>> 
>> Articles about Noel Ignatiev
>> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/15/noel-ignatiev-remembering-a-comrade-and-a-friend/
>> http://www.renegadetribune.com/genocidal-jew-noel-ignatiev-is-dead-good-riddance/
>> 
>> "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev
>> ISBN: 0415918251
>> ISBN13: 9780415918251
>> 
>> Theodore W. Allen on "On Roediger's Wages of Whiteness"
>> http://www.elegantbrain.com/edu4/classes/readings/race-roediger-allen.html
>> 
>> Cedric Johnson on "The Wages of Roediger: Why Three Decades of Whiteness Studies Has Not Produced the Left We Need"
>> https://nonsite.org/article/the-wages-of-roediger-why-three-decades-of-whiteness-studies-has-not-produced-the-left-we-need
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Barbara J. Fields on "Slavery, Race and Ideology in the United States of America"
>> https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2763-slavery-race-and-ideology-in-the-united-states-of-america
>> 
>> David Green's "Wealth gap" post to peace-discuss
>> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051656.html
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> David Green's recent letters to the editor of the News-Gazette
>> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-harassment-study-is-silly-propaganda/article_9d4eee6b-a8fa-5d8a-8609-169c0d256af9.html -- "Harassment study is silly propaganda"
>> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor-concerns-voiced-about-bend-the-arc/article_99b2ac36-4279-5cad-8b60-892ca30dde6e.html -- "Concerns voiced about Bend the Arc"
>> 
>> C. G. Estabrook on News-Gazette’s feature “Those Who Served” weekly feature in a letter to the News-Gazette
>> https://www.news-gazette.com/opinion/letters-editor/letter-to-the-editor-u-s-has-killed-millions-in/article_87b213e5-9f21-5acf-8f54-df41b18d026d.html
>> 
>> Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow"
>> https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon#Gravity's_Rainbow_(1973)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Moderate Rebels on "What was Pete Buttigieg doing in Iraq?: US gov whistleblower on war profiteering and corruption"
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9V-HlSyiwE
>> https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/moderaterebels/Moderate_Rebels_Pete_Buttigieg_Iraq_Peter_Van_Buren.mp3?dest-id=553365
>> 
>> Alicia Luke on "Buttigieg Admits No Combat Ribbon From Deployment To Afghanistan"
>> https://freedomoutpost.com/buttigieg-admits-no-combat-ribbon-from-deployment-to-afghanistan/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Louis Proyect on "Douma, Chlorine Gas and Occam’s Razor"
>> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/22/douma-chlorine-gas-and-occams-razor/
>> 
>> Jefferson Morley on "Why the Douma Chemical Attack Wasn’t a ‘Managed Massacre’"
>> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/06/why-the-douma-chemical-attack-wasnt-a-managed-massacre/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> J.B. Nicholson's notes
>> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace/2019-December/015404.html
>> https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2019-December/051610.html
>> 
>> -J
>> _______________________________________________
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>> 
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