[Peace-discuss] impeachment

Tue Mar 19 11:07:59 UTC 2019

Here's an idea for expanding the "spectrum of acceptable opinion."

Now that "democratic socialism" has become an accepted part of mainstream
discourse, let's add "democratic anti-imperialism" to the mix, as the
foreign policy of "democratic socialism." Let's use the Congressional vote
to end the Yemen war as a recruiting poster, like Bernie has been a
recruiting poster for "democratic socialism." Let's use this to try to
rehabilitate anti-imperialism as a mainstream American idea. You can be a
suburban soccer Mom and be an anti-imperialist. It's the Golden Rule
applied to countries. "Do unto other countries as you would have other
countries do unto you. That is the whole Torah; the rest is explanation."

===

Robert Reuel Naiman
Policy Director
Just Foreign Policy
www.justforeignpolicy.org
naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
(202) 448-2898 x1

On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 9:46 PM C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

> The populist uprising continues and grows, at home and abroad.
>
> See Brexit, les gilets jaunes, M5S/Lega government - and the vast efforts
> expended by US media to convince us that anti-elite sentiment in the US can
> be contained by the two dominant parties:
>
> “The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit
> the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within
> that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That
> gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the
> time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits
> put on the range of the debate.”
> [Noam Chomsky]
>
> Rosa Luxemburg, murdered by a social democratic government a century ago,
> said on the contrary, “The most revolutionary thing one can do is always to
> proclaim loudly what is happening.”
>
> What is happening now is that anti-neolib/anti-neocon sentiment - populism
> - in the US is expanding and slipping out of elite control.
>
> That’s the source of hysterical attacks on Ilhan Omar, AOC, Tulsi Gabbard,
> et al.
>
>
>
> > On Mar 18, 2019, at 6:03 PM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Trump has clearly fallen into the hands of the neocons. Bolton, Pompeo,
> Abrams. Can't get any more neocon than that.
> >
> > If there's something we could do in such a situation in the future, why
> don't we do it now? Why haven't we done it already? What is that thing that
> we could do? Let's do it now.
> >
> > Robert Reuel Naiman
> > Policy Director
> > Just Foreign Policy
> > www.justforeignpolicy.org
> > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
> > (202) 448-2898 x1
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 5:56 PM C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >  Yes, it was.
> >
> > We should see that the winner does not fall into the hands of the
> neocons and neolibs who ran the previous administrations.
> >
> > On Mar 18, 2019, at 5:12 PM, Robert Naiman <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> The election of Trump was, after a fashion, a populist uprising.
> >>
> >> What, if anything, could we do to have more influence over the outcome
> of the next such populist uprising?
> >>
> >> ===
> >>
> >> Robert Reuel Naiman
> >> Policy Director
> >> Just Foreign Policy
> >> www.justforeignpolicy.org
> >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
> >> (202) 448-2898 x1
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 5:01 PM C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >> A. Lincoln (himself rather good at fooling people) is supposed to have
> said (in a burst of optimism),
> >> "You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people
> all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.”
> >>
> >> But the American ascendency has perhaps got better at it in a century
> and a half.
> >>
> >> It will be harder for the populist uprising to succeed, but the 'major
> parties’ will probably not be able to stop it
> >> - tho’ they’re willing to risk a lot of damage to try.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > On Mar 18, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Well, "all of the above."
> >> >
> >> > But the way our elections work, the clamor doesn't lead to the
> outcome.
> >> >
> >> > Obama ran against endless wars. He got elected, and continued them.
> >> >
> >> > Trump ran against endless wars. He got elected, and continued them.
> >> >
> >> > So, by itself, the clamor isn't doing squat. If we want to get
> different outcomes, we need to do something else besides merely trying to
> fan the flames of the clamor.
> >> >
> >> > On Sun, Mar 17, 2019 at 7:11 PM C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> > Quite agree with the eggs/basket problem.
> >> >
> >> > But remember who it was who withdrew US troops from SE Asia two
> generations ago.
> >> >
> >> > Someone equally unlikely may withdraw US troops from SW Asia.
> >> >
> >> > But it probably won’t result from a deal in a clapped-out Congress.
> >> >
> >> > It will probably result form a popular (populist) demand for the
> abandonment of Obama/Bush neolib/neocon policies - a demand already
> underway. (It elected Trump.)
> >> >
> >> > That’s why the US political establishment is so determined to focus
> popular attention on Trump: it distracts from the policies people actually
> object to - more war and more inequality…
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > On Mar 17, 2019, at 6:02 PM, Robert Naiman <
> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > I like Tulsi. I sent her money. I'm talking to her people all the
> time. But given where things stand now, I don't want to put all my eggs in
> that basket. And, it will help Tulsi if we build support for the idea that
> unconstitutional war is totally unacceptable. There are already House Dems
> talking about introducing articles of impeachment on Trump that would just
> focus on two things: Yemen War Powers and the emergency declaration, two
> issues where there is bipartisan support for pushback against Trump, as
> evidenced by the recent votes in Congress. I want to build support for
> those House Dems, help give them courage to stand up to Pelosi's bullying.
> It took us a long time to get House Dems to stand up to Pelosi's bullying
> on Yemen War Powers. I want to speed things up so we can end this stinking
> Yemen war now. I don't want to wait until January 2021 for a chance to end
> the Yemen war.
> >> > >
> >> > > That's why we did this alert today:
> >> > >
> >> > > Congress: Threaten Trump with Impeachment If He Doesn’t End the
> Saudi War in Yemen
> >> > >
> https://www.change.org/p/congress-threaten-trump-with-impeachment-if-he-doesn-t-end-the-saudi-war-in-yemen
> >> > >
> >> > > On Sun, Mar 17, 2019 at 5:38 PM C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >> > >
> https://www.facebook.com/TulsiGabbard/videos/1305160292974284/?notif_id=1552858953272210&notif_t=live_video
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > > On Mar 17, 2019, at 5:19 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Tulsi Gabbard.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >> On Mar 17, 2019, at 1:51 PM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Who is going to "bring the troops home"?
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> If we can't make Trump do it, and we can't make Pelosi do it,
> who is going to do it?
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> If we want to end wars, we're going to have the change the
> calculations of the Trumps and the Pelosis about who they have to answer to
> on this stuff.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> I completely agree that swapping out one Trump for another Trump
> or one Pelosi for another Pelosi isn't going to change anything by itself,
> unless we change the perception of the Trumps and the Pelosis about who
> they have to answer to, not just when they're running, but after they're
> elected.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> But how are we going to do that? We might as well practice on
> the Trump and the Pelosi that we have. First of all, we might move them.
> Second of all, we might get better at it if we practice. Third, we might
> send a useful message to the future Trumps and Pelosis: this is what we're
> going to do to you if you cross us, and we're getting better and better at
> it.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> ===
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Robert Reuel Naiman
> >> > > >> Policy Director
> >> > > >> Just Foreign Policy
> >> > > >> www.justforeignpolicy.org
> >> > > >> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
> >> > > >> (202) 448-2898 x1
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> On Sun, Mar 17, 2019 at 12:12 PM C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss
> <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >> > > >> There are grounds (aggressive war and war provocations are ‘high
> crimes and misdemeanors,’ for which the Constitution - article two, section
> four - says impeachment is the remedy) to impeach the president, but it’s
> silly to spend time doing so.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Even if Trump is impeached and removed from office, those crimes
> will continue.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> But the political establishment (the Clinton campaign, the
> ‘intelligence community,’ the Pentagon, main-stream media pundits et al. )
> want you to concentrate on removing Trump - a sure indication that it’s
> meant to distract you from the real populist challenge to the US economic
> elite - the one-percent -  whose agent that establishment is.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Trump became president because enough Americans understood that
> he represented a challenge to the neoconservative (more war and war
> provocations) and neoliberal (more economic inequality) policies of the
> Obama and Bush administrations. But Trump’s challenge was contained and
> reversed by that establishment, as murderous and disgusting neocons like
> Pompeo and Bolton achieved power.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> For all his bluster, Trump is the weakest US president since
> Calvin Coolidge, and his administration continues the criminal policies of
> the previous administrations, with largely verbal changes.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> The establishment clearly wants us to be distracted by the
> melodrama of  a presidential impeachment, to turn aside complaints about
> their war and austerity policies. We shouldn’t allow it.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Bring all US troops home, and provide for the economic
> well-being of all Americans, with a universal basic income, Medicare for
> all, and free education. That’s what our rulers fear, because it will cost
> them money.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> —CGE
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>> On Mar 16, 2019, at 3:54 PM, David Johnson <
> davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net> wrote:
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> Bob,
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> That is an excellent analysis and strategy !
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> David J.
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> From: Robert Naiman [mailto:naiman at justforeignpolicy.org]
> >> > > >>> Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2019 10:11 AM
> >> > > >>> To: David Johnson
> >> > > >>> Cc: C G Estabrook; Peace Discuss; Ian Welsh
> >> > > >>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] impeachment
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> Yes, it makes a difference. I wrote about this, see the link.
> One thing is Nancy Pelosi's formal power, under the rules, and the other
> thing is her political-ideological power to "impose the Party Line" [i.e.,
> her line], which is fueled by money, exactly as you say.
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> But money is not the whole story. Part of it is gaslighting,
> psychological warfare, groupthink, herd behavior, Democrats thinking that
> they need to comply with Nancy Pelosi more than they have to. This part is
> not usually exposed, because usually Nancy Pelosi and her henchmen work
> effectively to keep issues and ideas off the table that could expose it -
> like impeachment. This is why, if you hate Nancy Pelosi's totalitarian rule
> over House Democrats on foreign policy, the idea of impeachment is
> potentially very interesting, because it's an opportunity to split House
> Democrats from Pelosi, where the other dynamics are not so strong. The
> moneyed interests don't have a clear dog in the fight. The
> Pentagon-industrial complex doesn't have a clear dog in the fight. AIPAC
> doesn't have a clear dog in the fight. The South Florida Democrats who are
> catering to right-wing Cuban exiles on Venezuela policy don't have a clear
> dog in the fight. So this could be a great fight to pick with Nancy Pelosi.
> A whole bunch of Democrats want to impeach Trump, and the interests that
> ordinarily keep Nancy Pelosi strong don't have a big dog in the fight. So
> she is vulnerable. It might be possible to weaken her, by starting a real
> fight among House Democrats about impeachment.
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> Look what happened in the fight over the demand of Nancy Pelosi
> and the AIPAC Democrats to censure Ilhan Omar. "Everybody who's anybody"
> expected Nancy Pelosi and the AIPAC Democrats to get their way. Of course.
> In a confrontation between Nancy Pelosi and the AIPAC Democrats on one side
> and Ilhan Omar on the other, who's going to win? Nancy Pelosi and the AIPAC
> Democrats, of course. Who has all the power? Nancy Pelosi and the AIPAC
> Democrats. Who has no power? Ilhan Omar. Who's going to win? Nancy Pelosi
> and the AIPAC Democrats. Of course. Duh. Slam dunk. Case closed. Put a fork
> in it, it's done.
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> But that's not what happened. What happened instead was that
> there was an uprising, an intifada, if you will. There was a backlash of
> support for Ilhan Omar, maybe not agreeing with exactly what she said, but
> opposing singling her out for criticism with a House resolution. If you
> want to have a House resolution against bigotry, these people said, fine.
> Have it be against all bigotry, not just anti-Semitism, so we're not just
> singling out Ilhan Omar. And that's what happened. That's what happened
> because of the uprising.
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> And that's why we should press on the idea of impeachment now.
> So we can try to provoke another uprising against Nancy Pelosi's
> totalitarian rule over House Democrats, which is a big, big obstacle to
> efforts to end the wars and prevent new ones.
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> ===
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> Robert Reuel Naiman
> >> > > >>> Policy Director
> >> > > >>> Just Foreign Policy
> >> > > >>> www.justforeignpolicy.org
> >> > > >>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
> >> > > >>> (202) 448-2898 x1
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> On Sat, Mar 16, 2019 at 9:37 AM David Johnson via Peace-discuss
> <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >> > > >>>> Election night, November 2006 Mid-Term Elections ;
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>> Within minutes of the national media announcing that the
> Democratic party had won control of the House and Senate, the news coverage
> switched live to cover Nancy Pelosi’s response. As soon as she walked up to
> the podium the very first words out of her mouth were ; “ Impeachment is
> off the table, impeachment is off the table “.
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>> She alone may not be able to block impeachment but her
> INFLUENCE and CONTROL of the vast majority of Democratic House members (
> via corporate campaign contributions and committee assignments, etc. ) DOES
> make a difference in that she CAN block and / or defeat any impeachment
> resolution.
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>> David J.
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>> From: Peace-discuss [mailto:
> peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of Robert Naiman via
> Peace-discuss
> >> > > >>>> Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2019 8:10 AM
> >> > > >>>> To: C G Estabrook
> >> > > >>>> Cc: Peace Discuss; Ian Welsh
> >> > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] impeachment
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>> Here's a key thing that everyone needs to know about this.
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>> IT"S NOT PELOSI'S DECISION WHETHER TO IMPEACH TRUMP OR NOT.
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>> Impeachment concerns the Constitutional privileges of the
> House. A resolution introducing articles of impeachment is a privileged
> resolution, JUST LIKE A CONCURRENT RESOLUTION TO WITHDRAW U.S. FORCES FROM
> AN UNAUTHORIZED WAR. It must go to the floor for a vote if the sponsor
> insists. NANCY PELOSI CANNOT BLOCK IT.
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>> See here:
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>> Let’s Impeach Trump If He Continues the Yemen War
> >> > > >>>> https://www.facebook.com/robert.naiman/posts/10158094853692656
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>> ===
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>> Robert Reuel Naiman
> >> > > >>>> Policy Director
> >> > > >>>> Just Foreign Policy
> >> > > >>>> www.justforeignpolicy.org
> >> > > >>>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
> >> > > >>>> (202) 448-2898 x1
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>> On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 8:16 PM C G Estabrook via
> Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >> > > >>>>> <https://chomsky.info/1990____-2/>
> >> > > >>>>>
> >> > > >>>>> "If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war
> American president would have been hanged."
> >> > > >>>>>
> >> > > >>>>> The point is easily extended to all recent presidents. Of
> course Trump should be impeached (like Obama) for ‘aggressive war,’ under
> Nuremberg’s defintion.
> >> > > >>>>>
> >> > > >>>>> —CGE
> >> > > >>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>> On Mar 15, 2019, at 6:53 PM, Ian Welsh <
> noreply+feedproxy at google.com> wrote:
> >> > > >>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>> Ian Welsh
> >> > > >>>>>> There Is No Downside To Impeaching Trump For Democrats
> >> > > >>>>>> Posted: 14 Mar 2019 04:57 PM PDT
> >> > > >>>>>> Nancy Pelosi recently said:
> >> > > >>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>> Impeachment is so divisive to the country that unless
> there’s something so compelling and overwhelming and bipartisan, I don’t
> think we should go down that path, because it divides the country. And he’s
> just not worth it.
> >> > > >>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>> I note, first of all, that Nancy Pelosi ruled out impeaching
> George Bush, so her reluctance to impeach for clear crimes is consistent
> with her record. I never understood why others thought that Pelosi would be
> pro-impeachment. The idea that she’s some partisan fighter is contradicted
> by her record. Pelosi is what she has, she has beliefs, and those beliefs
> include that the right is respectable and that left are unrealistic losers
> (as when she dismissed the Green New Deal.)
> >> > > >>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>> But let’s leave Pelosi aside for a moment. The Democrats
> have control of the House. They can impeach. They cannot convict in the
> Senate, but impeachment is certainly possible.
> >> > > >>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>> Why would they want to?
> >> > > >>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>> Because it would cripple Trump and Republicans. During the
> period of the impeachment, Republicans would be able to get virtually
> nothing done, except by executive fiat.
> >> > > >>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>> Because the impeachment hearings would completely dominate
> months of news cycles: constantly hammering in every illegal, crooked,
> corrupt and cruel thing that Trump has done.
> >> > > >>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>> This is largely a no lose, if you were actually partisan:
> there isn’t a lot that House Dems can get thru anyway while the Republicans
> control the Presidency, Senate and Supreme Court. You can’t actually get
> most of your legislation thru without crippling compromises so this is fine.
> >> > > >>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>> Control the news cycle; make sure bad legislation doesn’t
> pass for months; keep Trump tied down fighting impeachment and on top of
> that spend months talking about every shitty thing he has done.
> >> > > >>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>> Some may argue impeachment might “backfire”, that Americans
> “want to see legislators working”, but that sort of argument has been made
> for decades. Contempt for Congress isn’t going to get much worse (it hardly
> can), and if working means doing the wrong thing, it’s better not to.
> >> > > >>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>> In the face of all the positives, like dragging Trump thru
> the mud, crippling his ability to do anything, and controlling the news
> cycle, impeachment starts looking, politically, like an obvious thing to do.
> >> > > >>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>> And if you actually care about justice, well, Trump is at
> the very least, a walking emoluments violation. He is clearly profiting
> from being President. Carter had to sell his peanut farm, Trump hasn’t even
> put everything into blind trusts and many of his businesses are clearly
> profiting from his Presidency.
> >> > > >>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>> Bush should have been impeached. Trump should be impeached.
> Ironically, Clinton, who was impeached, shouldn’t have been (lying about
> consensual sex is a ridiculously low bar.)
> >> > > >>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>> Pelosi made the wrong decision with Bush. She appears in
> danger of making the wrong decision here. I doubt she’ll change her mind,
> but I hope I’m wrong.
> >> > > >>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>> The results of the work I do, like this article, are free,
> but food isn’t, so if you value my work, please DONATE or SUBSCRIBE.
> >> > > >>>>>>
> >> > > >>>>>>
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> >> > > >>>>>
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