From brussel at illinois.edu  Fri May  1 03:22:07 2020
From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 03:22:07 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Paul Jay/Wilkerson podcast
Message-ID: <64DF877C-4268-4BA8-BB42-50ABDDBC7724@illinois.edu>

Fascinating and compelling.  Well worth the hour of listening on this new outlet:

https://theanalysis.news/podcast/col-lawrence-wilkerson-on-bidens-china-ad-and-nuclear-war/

?mkb
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From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Fri May  1 08:49:18 2020
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 03:49:18 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] On the occasion of the end of the war in Vietnam,
 30 April 1975
Message-ID: <A3A03809-8CFD-42B2-B985-7C43A722E796@newsfromneptune.com>

https://will.illinois.edu/vietnam/story/oral-history-interview-timothy-kendall

From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Sat May  2 12:07:04 2020
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 07:07:04 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] 'A Nation Awakes From Slumber' - RPI May 1st
 Update
In-Reply-To: <a6b3044a9fe8889c822d11c16.2ac0f32700.20200502004450.34b7013902.66d299fd@mail175.sea101.rsgsv.net>
References: <a6b3044a9fe8889c822d11c16.2ac0f32700.20200502004450.34b7013902.66d299fd@mail175.sea101.rsgsv.net>
Message-ID: <94789662-3D36-4390-87CC-B073B30F0D27@newsfromneptune.com>

The federal government - the Congress and the president - must immediately provide a universal basic income at the level of a living wage.

Inequities - grants to people who don?t need it - can be recouped in next year's income taxes. But the need is now.

Congress & the president must act.
 


> On May 1, 2020, at 7:45 PM, Daniel McAdams/RPI <info at ronpaulinstitute.org> wrote:
> 
> View this email in your browser
> 
> 
> Anti-Lockdown Protest in Madison, WI
>  
> The Rule of the CoronaTyrants is Coming to an End
> 
> Dear Friends of the Ron Paul Institute:
> 
> I mentioned in my last update that the Ron Paul Liberty Report viewer and subscriber numbers have exploded since we've been regularly covering the coronavirus lockdown with a skeptical eye. Dr. Paul's "The Coronavirus Hoax" article on March 16th set off a wave of skepticism over the authoritarian response at every level of government to the "pandemic" panic that ultimately has shut down most of the United States and brought us to levels of unemployment not seen since the Great Depression.
> 
> More than thirty million Americans have filed for unemployment because either federal, state, or local governments decided that their work was not "essential." Liquor stores and big-box chain supermarts are deemed "essential," while mom and pop shops and dining establishments have been forcibly shut down under pain of arrest, steep fine, and even cancellation of business license.
> 
> Many of those who most vociferously urge everyone to "stay home" - perhaps not surprisingly - have been able to retain their income, be it from "working from home" in government or other white collar jobs, social security, pensions, or other means. 
> 
> As Professor Denis Rancourt so eloquently pointed out in an episode of the Liberty Report this week:
> 
> One of the reasons this [lockdown] is working is because the workers in the professional classes are just happy to get away from the office. They haven't lost their jobs, and they're still salaried, and they're able to stay at home with the kids and do family activities. It's like a big holiday for them. So one of the sources for compliance is that it's been such a nice family holiday for a lot of professional class workers. 
> Meanwhile, those whose livelihoods and very existence depend on going to a physical job or being open for business are becoming increasingly desperate. This week we highlighted the plight of a local businesswoman, Shauntae Johnston, owner of the Bad "S" Icehouse in Oyster Creek, TX, who wrote on her Facebook page that she would open her establishment tomorrow, May 2nd - with outside tables only and at the appropriate distance from each other - because her business is her life's work into which she has poured her life savings, and that she has written her last check from an account that is now completely depleted. Ms. Johnston has since been served a "cease and desist" letter from the local authorities, warning her that if she dares do business (with willing customers) she will be arrested.
> 
> It's no surprise, then, that anger at the new authoritarians who have literally snatched the food from the mouths of babes has reached such a pitch that there literally is no telling where it may lead. As I write this on Friday afternoon, California has erupted in mass protest from Sacramento to Huntington Beach, furious at Governor Gavin Newsom's seemingly rash and petulant executive order to close all beaches in the state because he was furious that Californians ignored his previous order to stay away from the beaches. In video from the Sacramento protest a woman can be heard yelling plaintively that she is the mother of a six year old child and must be able to get back to work. The police are dressed like military officers facing an Iraqi insurrection, rather than public servants protecting civilians according to the Constitution which they swore to defend.
> 
> While monsters like Newsom scream and pound their fists on the table over the public ignoring their edicts consigning constituents to literal starvation, citizens - with lots of time on their hands - are finding their voices and connecting with others who have done the same.
> 
> Newsom outlawed protest. Californians again laughed in his face.
> 
> As tyrannical as Newsom is, he's a piker compared to Gretchen "Pick Me For VP!" Whitmer, the wannabe dictator of Michigan. When the Michigan legislature rejected the idea of keeping Michigan shut down for another month, Gretchen stamped her feet and screamed "deus vult!"  
> 
> Michigan residents had had enough and for at least the second major time trekked to the state capital building to demand a redress of their grievances. This time they were demonstrably more defiant of Gretchen's disdain, storming into the capital building fully armed and furious.
> 
> While I would dispute the utility of making this resistance to state tyranny an armed resistance - it gives unbelievable ammo to those who seek to repulse the silent majority with claims that it's just a bunch of "right wing extremists" - there is no denying their sincerity or determination.
> 
> The "Stalin of the Week" award, then, must go to Michigan governor Gretchen Whitmer, who scoffed at the people, scoffed at their elected representatives, and decided to rule according to her own personal whim.
> 
> But there are also dishonorable mentions when it comes to the fight for liberty. Let's be clear about one thing: what we find ourselves in at present is no theoretical struggle for libertarian ideals. We are in, as our Secretary of State might say, a "live exercise" here. We have witnessed in these past four weeks an assault on the US Constitution and on our civil liberties that has not been seen perhaps in 100 years. Perhaps ever. Government officials - from the federal to the city level - have succeeded in completely obliterating our First Amendment and a few others. Petty tyrants tell us we must starve because of a virus. In the meantime they have no clue what they are doing. South Dakota has not shut down and has far less death than the states that have gone full-tilt totalitarian.
> 
> But I will be honest with you: even as we are face-to-face with a frontal assault on our liberties, so many organizations who have been set up to fight for same liberties have gone incredibly squishy when it comes to an actual attack. Yeah, it's fine to scribble endless articles about how we need to defend our liberties. But when those liberties are actually - in real time - under attack there has been a shameful silence from many organizations I've come to appreciate and trust.
> 
> This is the great divide. If you call yourself a libertarian or civil libertarian organization and you in any way make excuses for the totalitarian government lockdown you are done. If you call for a "responsible" opening, meaning, as Dr. Paul said recently on a broadcast, that a mugger attacks and robs you and while he is beating you you ask him to slow down, you are done. Hang up your spurs and return your donor money. You've failed. 
> 
> I won't name names. If you're not out front actively decrying this actual, violent assault in no uncertain terms without pulling any punches you have failed.
> 
> Meanwhile, we do have some heroes. The Mises Institute has been absolutely on fire with brilliant articles against this totalitarian takeover. Lew Rockwell has been an inspiration. Robert Wenzel of Target Liberty has been an island of sanity. Judge Napolitano has been a beacon. There are others, to be sure. But there have been many disappointments as well. How many who never trust a single word the US government says when it comes to the "need" to bomb Syria or sanction Iran have shamefully rolled over when a 50 year government bureaucrat with a track record that would make Bill Kristol blush tells us we can't have our Constitution back until Bill Gates forcibly injects us with his vaccine? Many friendships have ended due to this blind faith in the same government they condemn on other fronts.
> 
> Whatever the case, things are coming to a head. As our good friend Gerald Celenteoften says, when you've lost everything and you have nothing to lose...you lose it!
> 
> Be safe in the face of this horrible assault. The virus is a danger, but we are facing totalitarianism and economic collapse. Don't give in to fear!
> Sincerely yours,
> 
> Daniel McAdams
> Executive Director
> Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> Bitcoin:
> 
> 3GBe2oTXNxa7vUjRKAz6B2YNNo7ADyppq9
> 
> Selected Ron Paul Institute Recent Publications
> 
> Why Foreign Interventionism?
> by Jacob Hornberger
> 
> US-Backed Forces Killed Twice as Many Children as Taliban and ISIS Did During 1st Quarter of 2020
> by Andrea Germanos
> 
> Food Crisis Coming - Should We Blame Coronavirus?
> by Daniel McAdams
> 
> Covid-19 gives cover for US-led coalition to keep up pressure on Syria
> by Vanessa Beeley
> 
> The Massive Inflatable Crisis That is COVID-19
> by Tony Cartalucci
> 
> Will Coronavirus Kill - Or Embolden - Neocon Foreign Policy?
> by Daniel McAdams
> 
> Do Lockdowns Save Many Lives? In Most Places, the Data Say No
> by T.J. Rodgers
> 
> Covid-19 and The Red Dawn Emails
> by Thierry Meyssan
> 
> Donald J. Trump: Patient Zero of Lockdown Nation?s Covid Hysteria
> by David Stockman
> 
> Will It Take Food Shortages to End Support for the Shutdown?
> by Jeff Deist
> 
> How Will History Treat The Coronavirus Lockdown? With Prof. Denis Rancourt
> by Daniel McAdams
> 
> Resistance Strengthening: Small Business Defying Coronavirus Lockdown
> by Daniel McAdams
> 
> New Anti-China Propaganda Uses Russiagate Playbook
> by Dave DeCamp
> 
> Narrative Managers Argue China-Like Internet Censorship Is Needed
> by Caitlin Johnstone
> 
> Next in Coronavirus Tyranny: Forced Vaccinations and 'Digital Certificates'
> by Ron Paul
> 
> New Libertarian Presidential Candidate has Ten-Minute MSNBC Interview about Why He is Running, Says Nothing Libertarian
> by Adam Dick
> 
> Mayor Defies State?s Coronavirus Shutdown
> by Adam Dick
> 
> The New Rules of Golf in the USAR (Union of Soviet American Republics)
> by Thomas DiLorenzo
> 
> Cato Institute Editorial: The Coronavirus Crackdown is Libertarian
> by Adam Dick
> 
> My Coronavirus Crackdown Predictions
> by Adam Dick
> Copyright ? 2020 The Ron Paul Institute, All rights reserved.
> You are receiving this message because you have subscribed to Ron Paul/FREE.
> Our mailing address is:
> 833 W. Plantation Dr., Clute, TX 77531
> 
> unsubscribe from this list    update subscription preferences 
> 


From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sat May  2 16:45:41 2020
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 09:45:41 -0700
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Daniel McAdams letter
Message-ID: <DM6PR13MB28753284A2A1025C6397AFD1A3A80@DM6PR13MB2875.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>

Carl, I support your suggestion to Daniel McAdams, as critically necessary. 

I?m appalled at the the Ron Paul Institute whom he represents, suggestion that the virus is a hoax, and lockdown isn?t necessary. Everyone should take precautions such as wearing masks, and retaining distance from others.

They are myopic, just as the US government handling of the virus is myopic, inefficient and based upon greed. It may as some suggest be even more vicious and deliberate than what it appears, but that has yet to be proven.

Some of us knew about the virus in early January, when the Chinese announced it. The nations who didn?t take action or lockdown have suffered the greatest losses as a result. 
Those like Taiwan, Vietnam, Korea who took immediate action have suffered the least. 

I?m appalled at libertarians and those who in spite of all evidence, still suggest ?herd immunity,? which means sacrificing the weakest for the benefit of the strongest, Nazi eugenics.

Putting profit over people, is what the USG given their corporate backers have been doing since the Reagan Administration if not before, sacrificing our health workers and all those dealing with the public, the working class who are seen as expendable.

The economy has been on the verge of crashing for a very long time, at least since 2008 when Obama bailed out the banks rather than the people. Economist Michael Hudson covers this issue very well on the Jimmy Dore show and many other interviews. As pointed out in Naomi Klein?s  ?Shock Doctrine,? the capitalists will for their benefit, take advantage of a disaster.   

Suggesting at this point in time, as the Ron Paul Institute is doing, ?to socialize, and ignore all warnings because it is a hoax,? at this point in time, is being frivolous at best and shows their complete lack of humanity. 





From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Sat May  2 17:03:26 2020
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 12:03:26 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Daniel McAdams letter
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR13MB28753284A2A1025C6397AFD1A3A80@DM6PR13MB2875.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM6PR13MB28753284A2A1025C6397AFD1A3A80@DM6PR13MB2875.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <97271B9E-6E8C-4B95-92DA-363A79F4D0E2@newsfromneptune.com>

I don?t disagree...


> On May 2, 2020, at 11:45 AM, Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Carl, I support your suggestion to Daniel McAdams, as critically necessary. 
> 
> I?m appalled at the the Ron Paul Institute whom he represents, suggestion that the virus is a hoax, and lockdown isn?t necessary. Everyone should take precautions such as wearing masks, and retaining distance from others.
> 
> They are myopic, just as the US government handling of the virus is myopic, inefficient and based upon greed. It may as some suggest be even more vicious and deliberate than what it appears, but that has yet to be proven.
> 
> Some of us knew about the virus in early January, when the Chinese announced it. The nations who didn?t take action or lockdown have suffered the greatest losses as a result. 
> Those like Taiwan, Vietnam, Korea who took immediate action have suffered the least. 
> 
> I?m appalled at libertarians and those who in spite of all evidence, still suggest ?herd immunity,? which means sacrificing the weakest for the benefit of the strongest, Nazi eugenics.
> 
> Putting profit over people, is what the USG given their corporate backers have been doing since the Reagan Administration if not before, sacrificing our health workers and all those dealing with the public, the working class who are seen as expendable.
> 
> The economy has been on the verge of crashing for a very long time, at least since 2008 when Obama bailed out the banks rather than the people. Economist Michael Hudson covers this issue very well on the Jimmy Dore show and many other interviews. As pointed out in Naomi Klein?s  ?Shock Doctrine,? the capitalists will for their benefit, take advantage of a disaster.   
> 
> Suggesting at this point in time, as the Ron Paul Institute is doing, ?to socialize, and ignore all warnings because it is a hoax,? at this point in time, is being frivolous at best and shows their complete lack of humanity. 
> 
> 
> 
> 


From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Sat May  2 17:09:35 2020
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 12:09:35 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Daniel McAdams letter
In-Reply-To: <97271B9E-6E8C-4B95-92DA-363A79F4D0E2@newsfromneptune.com>
References: <DM6PR13MB28753284A2A1025C6397AFD1A3A80@DM6PR13MB2875.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
 <97271B9E-6E8C-4B95-92DA-363A79F4D0E2@newsfromneptune.com>
Message-ID: <EC317C3C-11E8-42FB-89B6-410D85341AAE@newsfromneptune.com>

I mean, I don?t disagree with you. But something must be done to deal with the outrage and hardships of the population.

That?s why I say that Congress and the President must establish universal medical care and a universal basic income for all - immediately.

We can?t wait for the next adminstration.



> On May 2, 2020, at 12:03 PM, C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote:
> 
> I don?t disagree...
> 
> 
>> On May 2, 2020, at 11:45 AM, Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Carl, I support your suggestion to Daniel McAdams, as critically necessary. 
>> 
>> I?m appalled at the the Ron Paul Institute whom he represents, suggestion that the virus is a hoax, and lockdown isn?t necessary. Everyone should take precautions such as wearing masks, and retaining distance from others.
>> 
>> They are myopic, just as the US government handling of the virus is myopic, inefficient and based upon greed. It may as some suggest be even more vicious and deliberate than what it appears, but that has yet to be proven.
>> 
>> Some of us knew about the virus in early January, when the Chinese announced it. The nations who didn?t take action or lockdown have suffered the greatest losses as a result. 
>> Those like Taiwan, Vietnam, Korea who took immediate action have suffered the least. 
>> 
>> I?m appalled at libertarians and those who in spite of all evidence, still suggest ?herd immunity,? which means sacrificing the weakest for the benefit of the strongest, Nazi eugenics.
>> 
>> Putting profit over people, is what the USG given their corporate backers have been doing since the Reagan Administration if not before, sacrificing our health workers and all those dealing with the public, the working class who are seen as expendable.
>> 
>> The economy has been on the verge of crashing for a very long time, at least since 2008 when Obama bailed out the banks rather than the people. Economist Michael Hudson covers this issue very well on the Jimmy Dore show and many other interviews. As pointed out in Naomi Klein?s  ?Shock Doctrine,? the capitalists will for their benefit, take advantage of a disaster.   
>> 
>> Suggesting at this point in time, as the Ron Paul Institute is doing, ?to socialize, and ignore all warnings because it is a hoax,? at this point in time, is being frivolous at best and shows their complete lack of humanity. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 


From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sat May  2 17:12:09 2020
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 10:12:09 -0700
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Daniel McAdams letter
In-Reply-To: <EC317C3C-11E8-42FB-89B6-410D85341AAE@newsfromneptune.com>
References: <DM6PR13MB28753284A2A1025C6397AFD1A3A80@DM6PR13MB2875.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
 <97271B9E-6E8C-4B95-92DA-363A79F4D0E2@newsfromneptune.com>
 <EC317C3C-11E8-42FB-89B6-410D85341AAE@newsfromneptune.com>
Message-ID: <DM6PR13MB287597705D6A261EBC56730FA3A80@DM6PR13MB2875.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>

Yes, exactly, and thats what we should be demanding.


> On May 2, 2020, at 10:09, C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote:
> 
> I mean, I don?t disagree with you. But something must be done to deal with the outrage and hardships of the population.
> 
> That?s why I say that Congress and the President must establish universal medical care and a universal basic income for all - immediately.
> 
> We can?t wait for the next adminstration.
> 
> 
> 
>> On May 2, 2020, at 12:03 PM, C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I don?t disagree...
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 2, 2020, at 11:45 AM, Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Carl, I support your suggestion to Daniel McAdams, as critically necessary. 
>>> 
>>> I?m appalled at the the Ron Paul Institute whom he represents, suggestion that the virus is a hoax, and lockdown isn?t necessary. Everyone should take precautions such as wearing masks, and retaining distance from others.
>>> 
>>> They are myopic, just as the US government handling of the virus is myopic, inefficient and based upon greed. It may as some suggest be even more vicious and deliberate than what it appears, but that has yet to be proven.
>>> 
>>> Some of us knew about the virus in early January, when the Chinese announced it. The nations who didn?t take action or lockdown have suffered the greatest losses as a result. 
>>> Those like Taiwan, Vietnam, Korea who took immediate action have suffered the least. 
>>> 
>>> I?m appalled at libertarians and those who in spite of all evidence, still suggest ?herd immunity,? which means sacrificing the weakest for the benefit of the strongest, Nazi eugenics.
>>> 
>>> Putting profit over people, is what the USG given their corporate backers have been doing since the Reagan Administration if not before, sacrificing our health workers and all those dealing with the public, the working class who are seen as expendable.
>>> 
>>> The economy has been on the verge of crashing for a very long time, at least since 2008 when Obama bailed out the banks rather than the people. Economist Michael Hudson covers this issue very well on the Jimmy Dore show and many other interviews. As pointed out in Naomi Klein?s  ?Shock Doctrine,? the capitalists will for their benefit, take advantage of a disaster.   
>>> 
>>> Suggesting at this point in time, as the Ron Paul Institute is doing, ?to socialize, and ignore all warnings because it is a hoax,? at this point in time, is being frivolous at best and shows their complete lack of humanity. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 


From jbn at forestfield.org  Sat May  2 17:55:46 2020
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 12:55:46 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Medicare for All needed urgently
In-Reply-To: <EC317C3C-11E8-42FB-89B6-410D85341AAE@newsfromneptune.com>
References: <DM6PR13MB28753284A2A1025C6397AFD1A3A80@DM6PR13MB2875.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
 <97271B9E-6E8C-4B95-92DA-363A79F4D0E2@newsfromneptune.com>
 <EC317C3C-11E8-42FB-89B6-410D85341AAE@newsfromneptune.com>
Message-ID: <4c23d365-bfe4-809d-9e74-0639667a151b@forestfield.org>

C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote:
> I mean, I don?t disagree with you. But something must be done to deal with the
> outrage and hardships of the population.
> 
> That?s why I say that Congress and the President must establish universal medical
> care and a universal basic income for all - immediately.
> 
> We can?t wait for the next adminstration.

And the current administration could handily win the election for themselves if they 
enacted a proper Medicare for All into law (meaning any of the 3 recent Medicare for 
All bills as they are now, unmodified, none of which have come to the floor of the 
House or Senate). Even shaming the Democrats on this could have valuable 
repercussions. The same could be said about a universal basic income, paid for either 
with more invention of money (which few seem to complain about when it's done to the 
benefit of the wealthiest businesses and their owners) or a Tobin tax plus a sharp 
reduction in military spending (I refuse to call that "defense" spending).

If so many are convinced that Pres. Trump's vanity is how he makes decisions, then 
appeal to that vanity and use it to our collective advantage -- call a proper 
Medicare for All plan "TrumpCare" (for example) if it will please him and speed along 
signing this into law.

From jbn at forestfield.org  Sun May  3 23:16:45 2020
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 18:16:45 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Chomsky on Pushback - best account I've seen
In-Reply-To: <6D6A249F-2D3C-4F7B-A0FC-8B80BD428BF6@newsfromneptune.com>
References: <6D6A249F-2D3C-4F7B-A0FC-8B80BD428BF6@newsfromneptune.com>
Message-ID: <eae38c72-5456-8c9a-0b05-897c345f0bf7@forestfield.org>

C. G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1kqgTKf0kw

I think this interview and in 
https://truthout.org/articles/chomsky-covid-19-has-exposed-the-us-under-trump-as-a-failed-state/ 
give Chomsky the time to lay out his argument behind voting for Biden (even if only 
in non-safe states). But I think there's a problem with that view as expressed by 
Chomsky.

In both interviews there is no mention of:

- the CARES Act which is a huge wealth transfer to big businesses and nothing of any 
substance for the public (despite AOC's hysterical[1], arm-waving speeches where she 
never calls out the Democratic Party or Nancy Pelosi while both Pelosi and AOC very 
likely vote for every bailout bill without admitting it). This seems remarkable to 
not get into at all and I'm curious how what could end up being the largest wealth 
transfer in human history could merit no mention. If you want serious analysis of the 
economics on this you have to watch the Jimmy Dore show -- whether he's speaking 
alone, speaking with Danny Haiphong, or speaking in his now regular segments with 
Dylan Ratigan, Dore is the go-to place to find the goods on these bailout bills.

- extending Medicare-paid care for COVID-19 treatment. This is hardly Medicare for 
All but it's more generous than Pres. Obama was during the 2008 financial crisis when 
millions were kicked out of their homes (a repeat of which we'll likely see again 
soon as the number of renters who can't afford their rent is expected to increase 
when rent comes due on the first of each month; almost 30% of Americans didn't pay 
their rent through April 5, 2020 according to 
https://www.newsweek.com/one-third-american-renters-impacted-covid-19-did-not-pay-rent-april-report-1497461 
).

Russiagate only came up after Mat? mentioned it and Russiagate seems to be reduced to 
"a Democratic talking point" for Chomsky. That's all he had to offer on this 
incredibly important issue that has occupied literally 4 years of Democrat's time, as 
that party tried to explain away HRC's astounding 2nd loss to become POTUS, and 
Russiagate was also used by the Obama/Biden administration as rationale to back 
anti-Russian sanctions (which means promoting war) shortly before that administration 
ended.

[1] What AOC has to say in her objections is right as far as it goes, but it is clear 
that her other choices surrounding these bailout bills that she's not on the side of 
the 99% except in rhetoric. Her unwillingness to even try to get a recorded vote 
strongly indicates she votes with her party and for the business-minded bailouts. 
Hence her speech comes off as emotional theatrics, a lack of control over feelings 
despite being in a position to do better.



Chomsky said Biden has an "ugly history" but maintains that either Biden or the 
Democratic Party "is moving significantly to the left not because it's his choice but 
because of the constant activism and pressure partly from the Sanders campaign, 
partly from other activist campaigns." yet the evidence for this is thin on the 
ground at best.

Nuclear weapons developments are certainly heading in the wrong direction across 
administrations. A previous C.J. Polychroniou Truthout interview with Chomsky 
(https://truthout.org/articles/a-mixed-story-ranging-from-criminal-to-moderate-improvement-noam-chomsky-on-obama-s-legacy/) 
had Chomsky saying "[Obama's] trillion-dollar program for modernizing the nuclear 
weapons system is the opposite of what should be done" with no expansion on that 
claim beyond that. This creates a rather mild impression about spending $1 trillion 
to do whatever constitutes "modernizing the nuclear weapons system". Chomsky's most 
recent Polychroniou Truthout interview showed Chomsky saying far more including 
calling Trump "the supreme con man, who makes P.T. Barnum look like an amateur" and 
later adding:

 > But Trump is in a class by himself. Not just as a con man, but much more
 > significantly as a dedicated enemy of the human race. That much is demonstrated by
 > his policies on accelerating environmental catastrophe and dismantling the arms
 > control regime that has provided some protection from terminal nuclear war, quite
 > aside from a stream of peccadilloes of the kind already mentioned.

I think that this was meant to give the impression that Pres. Trump is a unique 
problem, not merely a symptom of a larger problem where Trump is but the latest to 
escalate horrors in line with choices made by previous administrations, which taken 
as a whole, amount to the two corporate parties building on each other like a ratchet 
of immiseration and death.

This is where I differ with Chomsky in general: I don't see Trump as being uniquely 
bad but merely the result of a one-party system that wears two hats in order to 
deceive us into thinking they are opponents. On all of the biggest issues of the day 
neither Democrat nor Republican administrations are better than the other because 
they essentially agree. Their differences are dwarfed by their similarities. I don't 
think the difference between Trump and Biden is "colossal" as Chomsky said in his 
interview with C.J. Polychroniou in 
https://truthout.org/articles/chomsky-covid-19-has-exposed-the-us-under-trump-as-a-failed-state/ 
.

In 
https://truthout.org/articles/chomsky-covid-19-has-exposed-the-us-under-trump-as-a-failed-state/ 
Chomsky claimed:

 > There have also been significant shifts in other areas (health care, minimum wage,
 > harsh repression in vulnerable communities, women?s rights, on and on). We can, in
 > fact, see this in Biden?s program, which is well to the left of previous
 > Democratic front-runners.

Let's take a look at these points, since these are some of the few specific points 
Chomsky raises to back his argument:

- health care: Biden has already declared that he would veto any Medicare for All 
bill crossing his desk as President 
(https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/10/biden-says-he-wouldd-veto-medicare-for-all-as-coronavirus-focuses-attention-on-health.html). 
This one issue is so important that it alone, I believe, could determine the outcome 
of the 2020 US POTUS election -- if Trump extended Medicare to cover every American 
he'd have this election sewn up, particularly now in the midst of a pandemic 
(contrary to the feckless bullshit Sen. Sanders said and wrote as he "paused" his 
campaign, "This is not Medicare for All, we can?t pass that right now." in 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uQV83U5Dk and "Let me be clear: I am not proposing 
that we pass Medicare for All in this moment. That fight continues into the future." 
without saying when the future would be).

- minimum wage: Biden has said favorable things about a $15/hour minimum wage 
(https://www.marketwatch.com/story/biden-calls-for-15-minimum-wage-public-option-health-plan-in-first-campaign-speech-2019-04-29) 
but at the same time Biden also called for letting people buy into Medicare (known as 
a "public option"). And we saw what happened to the public option when the Democrats 
had a majority in both houses of Congress with Biden as Vice President. In the health 
care hearings, the public option was quickly thrown out as a choice and we all saw 
that it was used as a come-on to lure people into supporting what the Obama/Biden 
administration fought for: the ACA ("ObamaCare") even while a Medicare for All bill 
(HR 676) sat ready to bring to the floor of the House. There's also footage of Biden 
speaking favorably about Medicare for All (years ago at a Biden rally speaking to two 
women who were in the audience). Apparently that didn't happen. So there is good 
reason to doubt that Biden would do as he has said, hence good reason to not believe 
that Biden would raise the minimum wage to $15/hr. What we know so far is that the 
'fight for $15' wins where it wins despite endorsement from politicos not because of 
the politicos. And Biden has no history of standing with those who fought for a 
$15/hr minimum wage so far, yet Chomsky would have us believe that Biden would 
somehow support that now.

- women's rights: Biden's history with women and girls is so poor this hardly needs 
to be debunked. There are photos and videos where Biden is visibly groping or touch 
women and girls in ways that the women do not appear to like. There are multiple 
women alleging Biden sexually harmed them. Katie Halper's journalism bringing Tara 
Reade's allegation to light is slowly getting some press but was utterly ignored by 
establishment media for about a month. Now, as establishment media covers it, they 
let commentators (like Stacy Abrams) claimed that the New York Times debunked Reade's 
allegation, but the NYT has said "Our investigation made no conclusion either way". 
Reade said (at the time and now) that Biden pushed Reade against a wall and digitally 
penetrated her without her consent. Reade's story grows more credible as Biden first 
spent about a month insubstantially addressing it (or being silent about it), 
followed by some not too hard-hitting interviews from establishment media on it (the 
least-worst of which is Mika Brzezinski's MSNBC interview which you can see analysis 
of in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEbI8QaoYKo). Jimmy Dore's segments 
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4w8CsFN0yk and 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv0NxAwlS2k and 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AeCnf1EgZo and 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEbI8QaoYKo) point out what establishment media lies 
about: other women with sex harassment or abuse allegations against Biden, the utter 
failure and hypocrisy of the #MeToo group to defend Biden, and the lack of a 
believable narrative allowing anyone to reasonably believe that a Biden 
administration will enact policy to improves women's rights. Medicare for All bears 
mentioning here too: this policy also benefits most women right alongside most other 
Americans but (Biden told us) won't happen in a Pres. Biden administration. Hillary 
Clinton endorsed Biden (and that might well backfire for Biden) and so have other 
women (including actor Alyssa Milano and Congresswomen AOC and Tulsi Gabbard) who 
were associated with ostensibly pushing for women's rights (or so was claimed about 
them). But none of these women are being taken seriously as fighters for women's 
rights after having endorsed Biden. All are examples of turncoats who abandoned 
serious women's rights issues. All are seen as what AOC once described as 
"re-traumatiz[ing women] over and over"[1].

[1] See https://lists.chambana.net/pipermail/peace-discuss/2020-April/052190.html for 
a transcript of the video where this quote comes from.

- "On and on": Is nothing.

What Chomsky said isn't standing up well for his defense of Biden.

There's no reason to believe Biden is more likely to do what you want. And I'm not 
convinced that the Democrats want to win the 2020 election; I think the Democrats 
would be fine with 4 more years of Trump so there's nothing for them to lose by 
running someone as abhorrent as Biden. Biden is basically an insurance policy for the 
neocons/neolibs -- it's Trump's election to lose and if he loses, the reliable 
neocon/neolib Biden steps in. I think it's possible that Chomsky and others are more 
for Biden winning than the Democratic Party is. Let's not forget that the years-long 
impeachment charade the Democrats were fully behind meant that we'd get Pres. Pence 
if the Democrats had their way; such neocon/neolib insurance plans are hardly new.




It's far better to make politicians come and get your vote, not hand anyone your vote 
and trust that the neolibs/neocons are right in their speculation that Biden is 
somehow (absent any evidence) more malleable *after* making him POTUS. After all, 
once you've given your vote for nothing what reason would a politician have to 
support your issues? You've just proven that the one thing they want is available for 
nothing.

Chomsky's recent interviews, endorsement of HRC in 2012 for non-safe-state voters, 
and that letter he recently co-signed all seem to me to be barely distinguishable 
from "any Blue will do" and not a proper political analysis. I think it would be far 
better to more explicitly and clearly tell people something like what News from 
Neptune and what Jimmy Dore both say: Trump is not the problem, he's a symptom of a 
much larger problem. Democrats are not (contrary to their establishment coverage) an 
opposition party. Dore also adds that the 'next Trump' to come along will be worse. 
None of this is an endorsement for either party or its preferred current 
representative. It's an endorsement for seeking solutions by pressuring whomever is 
in office in order to implement majoritarian ideas (including direct cash payments to 
individuals/UBI, Medicare for All, and homes for the homeless). Therefore people need 
to work on making that pressure consistent year-round and when it comes to the 
relatively minor question of presidential elections, it might not matter if or for 
whom you vote because the policy differences between the candidates are so small.

Jimmy Dore takes on Chomsky's advice in multiple segments. One of them is 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv21BLO-JwI titled "Chomsky Pushes 40 Year Old Failed 
Voting Strategy".

-J

From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net  Fri May  8 23:14:33 2020
From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 18:14:33 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] If you don't use leverage and serious  threats,
 the powers that be will NOT take you seriously !
Message-ID: <003f01d6258e$70916990$51b43cb0$@comcast.net>

DIRECT ACTION GETS RESULTS !...

 

THIS is what needs to be done, BOTH at the workplace and AGAINST the
Democratic party. 

If you do not make a demand and BACK IT UP with a THREAT that you will
SANCTION them with, then they will NOT take you seriously and you will
achieve NOTHING !....

The "official" process of forming a Union includes working through
sanctioned agencies that have been co-opted by political appointees. For
example, if the National Labor Relations Board is well funded and empowered,
they can be a strong counterweight to corporate power, 
but they've been co-opted. 

As a result, direct action seems to be all we have left. The sanctioned
"compromise" process has been locked down, so it's going to take major
disruptions to again instill fear in the corporate class.

 

Jimmy Dore Show - Workers use direct action to form IMMEDIATE Unions and
demands... 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXCOofgXjmY

 

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From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Sat May  9 08:37:56 2020
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 03:37:56 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss]
 early-lockdown-lifting-will-prolong-the-greater-depression
Message-ID: <BB4EE282-A5BC-4306-BE92-C18E75AFBCF6@newsfromneptune.com>

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/05/early-lockdown-lifting-will-prolong-the-greater-depression.html?fbclid=IwAR0hLPuoDL8gbUZp04gdnLQDUE6qypQB8KavSycsFJMVorg0-T7iFzFKJ8Y

From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net  Sat May  9 15:55:35 2020
From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson)
Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 10:55:35 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Reminder: Joe Biden campaigned for Michigan
 Republican ahead of midterms
Message-ID: <005401d6261a$54548a00$fcfd9e00$@comcast.net>

DETROIT METRO TIMES

 

Reminder: Joe Biden campaigned for Michigan Republican ahead of midterms 

Posted By  <https://www.metrotimes.com/author/tom-perkins> Tom Perkins on
Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 10:48 AM 

 
<https://media2.fdncms.com/metrotimes/imager/u/original/21521360/shutterstoc
k_755595298.jpg> EVAN EL-AMIN / SHUTTERSTOCK.COM

.         Evan El-Amin / Shutterstock.com 


Joe Biden made it official yesterday: He's running for president. 

His announcement also put an end to the speculation about whether he would
run as a Democrat or Republican - he's running as a Dem. We are, of course,
kidding about that last part. Biden has always been a Democrat, but we made
the joke because he
<https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/archives/2019/01/23/new-york-times-joe
-biden-campaigned-for-michigan-republican-ahead-of-midterms> campaigned for
a Republican in October in Michigan, just ahead of the midterms. 



 
<https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/23/us/politics/joe-biden-democrats-2020.htm
l> The New York Times reported that Biden was paid $200,000 to speak at a
rally in Benton Harbor, and he and the GOP were successful in their efforts,
as incumbent Fred Upton edged Democrat Matt Longjohn by four points. 

>From The New York Times: 

Mr. Biden stunned Democrats and elated Republicans by praising Mr. Upton
while the lawmaker looked on from the audience. Alluding to Mr. Upton's
support for a landmark medical-research law, Mr. Biden called him a champion
in the fight against cancer - and "one of the finest guys I've ever worked
with."

Mr. Biden's remarks, coming amid a wide-ranging discourse on American
politics, quickly appeared in Republican advertising. The local Democratic
Party pleaded with Mr. Biden to repair what it saw as a damaging error, to
no avail. On Nov. 6, Mr. Upton defeated his Democratic challenger by four
and a half percentage points.

As Mr. Biden considers a bid for the presidency in 2020, the episode
underscores his potential vulnerabilities in a fight for the Democratic
nomination and raises questions about his judgment as a party leader. Mr.
Biden has attempted to strike a balance since leaving office, presenting
himself as a unifying statesman who could unseat President Trump while also
working to amass a modest fortune of several million dollars.

But Mr. Biden's appearance in Michigan plainly set his lucrative personal
activities at odds with what some Democrats saw as his duty to the party,
linking him with a civic group seen as tilting to the right and undermining
Democrats' effort to defeat Mr. Upton, a powerful lawmaker who in 2017
helped craft a bill to repeal the Affordable Care Act. 


This is also the guy who trashed Anita Hill, didn't give her an apology
until it was politically necessary (and she
<https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/25/us/politics/joe-biden-anita-hill.html>
rejected his apology),
<https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/joe-biden-integration-schoo
l-busing-120968> opposed desegregation, previously wanted to cut Medicare
and Social Security,
<https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2019/03/joe-bidens-1993-crime-bill-s
peech-is-worse-than-yo.html> pushed the awful 1994 crime bill that led to a
spike in the prison population, and seems
<https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-25/biden-announces-campa
ign-his-bipartisan-pitch-is-outdated> intent on working the GOP, even if
it'll do everything it can to destroy Dem policies. OK, so maybe there's a
case to be made that he should run as a Republican. 

 

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From jbn at forestfield.org  Sat May  9 20:22:18 2020
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 15:22:18 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Reminder: Joe Biden campaigned for Michigan
 Republican ahead of midterms
In-Reply-To: <005401d6261a$54548a00$fcfd9e00$@comcast.net>
References: <005401d6261a$54548a00$fcfd9e00$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <67f6eb88-e06e-5e86-e8a8-ccd2a8122b4a@forestfield.org>

David Johnson pointed to 
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/23/us/politics/joe-biden-democrats-2020.html which said:
> The New York Times reported that Biden was paid $200,000 to speak at a
> rally in Benton Harbor, and he and the GOP were successful in their efforts,
> as incumbent Fred Upton edged Democrat Matt Longjohn by four points.

Jimmy Dore has reaction to this as well in 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGeKIf8Sojc which I plan to recommend running on UPTV.

This also should put to bed the notion that Democrats and Republicans are opposed on 
the biggest, most important issues of the day. They're not opposed, they apparently 
work together (CARES Act business bailouts, wars, suppressing policies that would 
help the 99% like Medicare for All, homes for the homeless, and a national jobs 
program). What separates these parties is minuscule compared to what brings them 
together.

 From the aforementioned New York Times article:
> But Mr. Biden's appearance in Michigan plainly set his lucrative personal 
> activities at odds with what some Democrats saw as his duty to the party, linking
> him with a civic group seen as tilting to the right and undermining Democrats'
> effort to defeat Mr. Upton, a powerful lawmaker who in 2017 helped craft a bill to
> repeal the Affordable Care Act.
Which means Joe Biden was helping someone work against legislation passed in Biden's 
administration when Biden was Vice President; legislation liberals would have us 
celebrate even though it did nothing to prevent 30 million people from receiving the 
healthcare they needed and does not get us closer to Medicare for All.

This should quell any notion that the public should vote Biden into the presidency 
and then wait to pressure him on better legislation such as Medicare for All. Biden 
apparently goes where the money goes which means supporting HMOs when they draft 
legislation (such as the Affordable Care Act aka "ObamaCare") and when HMOs don't 
make enough money under the ACA Biden makes money working with those who want to 
repeal the ACA.

Those who are throwing away their political legitimacy by pushing for Biden appear to 
be more interested in seeing the Democrat win the presidency[1] than the Democrats are.

The public at large will have to get behind struggling workers and the unemployed in 
order to accomplish things that will benefit us all:

- Medicare for All (which HMO funders alone are paying more for than a proper 
Medicare for All program would cost),

- Universal Basic Income (paid for with some combination of increased taxation on the 
wealthy like going back to 1960's tax policy, a Tobin tax, and reduction in military 
spending including reallocating money from that spending toward the UBI),

- homes for the homeless,

- and a national jobs program (again, both are cheap compared to what we spend on 
militarism). Keep in mind that the Dept. of Defense and Housing and Urban Development 
recently lost track of $21 trillion dollars in a widely under-reported outcome from 
the first federal audit.

I mention ways to pay for these things here but I also recognize that these questions 
weren't raised when the Republicans and Democrats overwhelmingly voted for the CARES 
Act. Trillions were added to the economy and the overwhelming share of that money was 
handed to the wealthiest people with virtually nothing to individuals in need.



[1] I say this in this way, "seeing the Democrat win the presidency" because 
(recalling Biden's own speech) nothing has substantially changed for the Democrats 
since Hillary Clinton ran and lost her second attempt at becoming POTUS in 2016. So 
even if the Democrats swap out Biden and replace him with Clinton nothing will 
substantially change. Those who endorse voting for a Democrat seem to be fine 
switching their endorsement from one neocon, neolib, mistreater of women to another.

From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net  Sat May  9 23:13:01 2020
From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson)
Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 18:13:01 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] This is a great start ! Please watch,
 an inspiring segment.
Message-ID: <001501d62657$63a61f90$2af25eb0$@comcast.net>

This is a great start ! Please watch, an inspiring segment.

 

 

 <https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%23TheJimmyDoreShow>
#TheJimmyDoreShow

Coordinated Strikes At Amazon & Whole Foods Succeeds!

.May 8, 2020

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKJXqphfuGs

 

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From stuartnlevy at gmail.com  Mon May 11 19:46:20 2020
From: stuartnlevy at gmail.com (Stuart Levy)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 14:46:20 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] to keep a balance,
 Urb Park proposes to kill 60-100 Crystal lake geese-- read & take
 survey
In-Reply-To: <4EFA50D9-2BE4-4CA3-93B3-0A4DACF6D990@gmail.com>
References: <CAKfUjSF+1nw+T846MqH_aAsq3NKPjqA3A7AV3KNPdz4fo2cn-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFLceay2jw8OYYP=kjPUcnA=LKhu-Z1Et2S81F0qa+uO7Btr6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANDTtdk-F+cQFEkKzcf_dK+K-M7yEg6Xt+i+wf9hOGwVox3U8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <DM6PR13MB28750FAEF3684F74943FD9DDA3A10@DM6PR13MB2875.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
 <CANDTtdkKMScMatTmp3qhoSw495DHi5qS7Fh+0ibLZV8CAw4T7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANDTtdnEzMFSx-Px8dj3ritHcZT2m15sZ4tfy_JVn1nJBVFtAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPnrEOVO5yMmVj2bggLJdC38vbXx8a=RXdNNrZpwdAT5i=xfig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRcBVaDdAqroZw=qRgvCLDzXyzi=5=3_uA5w-uZuwPRe=HGFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPnrEOXTX3dTZzvJrO+thGsaVVVrWAgo2J6oH-0FUGhgJg1P-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFA50D9-2BE4-4CA3-93B3-0A4DACF6D990@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c4a00cd6-dad1-04d9-9460-6b7f13a55e37@gmail.com>

(Moving to peace-discuss instead of the peace announcements list)

What comes next - yes, this is my thought as well.?? The geese are
occupying an ecological niche.?? How long will it take to refill it???
Are they just avoiding the labor of goose chasing for a season or two,
if they kill off 3/4rs of them now?

On 5/11/20 12:36 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace wrote:
> We fill our urban spaces with artificial ponds, nicely landscaped with
> lots of regularly mown grass and no predators other than vehicles and
> wonder why the geese congregate, along with ducks, killdeers, herons,
> turtles, and the few species of amphibians not extirpated by
> pesticides and habitat destruction. People forget that this part of
> Illinois was marshy prairie, and though humans drained and paved it
> for their own uses, the animals that were here before us either move
> elsewhere or make do?wrens and robins building nests in gutters and
> corners of structures, swifts nesting in chimneys, opossums and
> raccoons and those ?damned gray squirrels ? foraging in unsecured
> garbage receptacles...well, list goes on. Want to get rid of the
> geese? Get rid of the water.?
>
> The problem I see with the park district?s planned goose slaughter is
> that it does not address what comes next. Other geese will simply move
> in to fill the vacuum. Does the slaughter become an annual event? If
> geese are slaughtered throughout Urbana will geese from Champaign move
> east? Geese are pretty smart birds, but they don?t understand
> jurisdictional boundaries.?
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 11, 2020, at 12:06 PM, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com
> <mailto:jbw292002 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:04 PM Lois Steinberg <loisiyoga at gmail.com
>> <mailto:loisiyoga at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     but there are alternatives to murdering them...?
>>     Lois
>>
>>
>> Perhaps there are.? But if you read the actual report from the Urbana
>> Park District, you'll see how many different strategies have already
>> been employed, in vain.
>>
>>
>> ?
>>
>>     On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:35 AM John W. via Peace
>>     <peace at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
>>
>>         On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:00 AM Debra Schrishuhn via Peace
>>         <peace at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>>
>>         wrote:
>>
>>             Some are non-native--sort of. They were here; wild
>>             populations were destroyed; captive geese were introduced
>>
>>             From the book "Wild Neighbors":
>>
>>             "Once decimated by hunting and habitat loss, Canada geese
>>             rebounded after captive birds were released throughout
>>             the country.
>>
>>             "People may be surprised to hear that birds learn to
>>             migrate from their parents and flock?they don't hatch
>>             with this complex knowledge. So released geese never
>>             learned to fly north and instead took up local residence
>>             year-round.
>>
>>             "We've provided food and safety right here in our cities
>>             and suburbs. The geese have no reason to go elsewhere, so
>>             they settle in and raise families....
>>
>>
>>         And to sound a discordant note in this whole conversation,
>>         this is why I don't like the geese around here.? The geese
>>         may be native to central Illinois at certain times of the
>>         year, but they're not native to urban areas and they're not
>>         native year-round.? i don't know what the answer is for
>>         Crystal Lake Park, but I think it's ridiculous to see flocks
>>         of geese sauntering across busy streets in the vicinity of
>>         North Prospect in Champaign.? As we humans have done with so
>>         many species (like the damned grey squirrel), we've
>>         introduced them to habitats where they don't belong, and more
>>         or less domesticated them until their population gets out of
>>         control and becomes destructive.??
>>
>>         ?
>>
>>             "It's one thing to shoo a few geese off a back lawn and
>>             another to convince a large flock that has used a park
>>             for years that they ought to go elsewhere. That requires
>>             a plan. A?coordinated program
>>             <https://www.humanesociety.org/resources/plan-ahead-make-peace-canada-geese>?will
>>             save in the long run and be more successful....
>>
>>             "Scientific studies do not show that goose droppings pose
>>             any special health threats. Obviously, people want to
>>             avoid contact with any animal droppings. Ordinary good
>>             hygiene, such as washing hands and leaving shoes at the
>>             door, are adequate prevention if you accidentally contact
>>             animal droppings."
>>
>>
>>             On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:52 AM Debra Schrishuhn
>>             <deb.pdamerica at gmail.com
>>             <mailto:deb.pdamerica at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>                 Yes, please! And thank you (honk).
>>
>>                 Yesterday in a local place with a pond (not Crystal
>>                 Lake) I watched goose families move from one pond to
>>                 another just before a rainstorm. When the goslings
>>                 were not? going fast enough, the parents shooed them
>>                 forward by vocalizing and running at them with wings
>>                 flapping. When crossing roads the adults will not
>>                 abandon their young to save themselves, but rather
>>                 urge the young ones ever faster. Geese also form
>>                 family coops, with multiple broods of youngsters
>>                 grazing surrounded by multiple pairs of watchful parents.
>>
>>                 Non-lethal means of control could be by the
>>                 innovative geeseherd idea or the more usual human
>>                 nest robbers as the park has done in the past. In
>>                 fact, given the number of broods at Crystal Lake Park
>>                 this year I'd say that the nest robbing/egg
>>                 destruction project was abandoned--dare one suggest
>>                 that it was done to make the goose problem look more
>>                 acute? It cannot be because the geese are
>>                 particularly good at hiding their nests--the park's
>>                 so-called renovations have taken out much of the
>>                 underbrush and scrub where they nested (and also
>>                 decreased significant habitat for local songbirds).
>>
>>                 On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:36 AM Karen Aram
>>                 <karenaram at hotmail.com
>>                 <mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>                     Thank you Niloofar and Deb,
>>
>>                     I just completed the survey, having just now seen
>>                     it, and I?m furious over the inhumanity of
>>                     slaughtering these love creatures. I?m just as
>>                     outraged at the genocide or culling as they
>>                     usually refer to it, of wildlife, animals as I am
>>                     of humans.?
>>
>>                     The upgrades or improvements they are planning
>>                     would be better left alone if it requires this
>>                     slaughter.
>>
>>                     I will with your permission, circulate your
>>                     letter below, along with Niloofar?s on FB, along
>>                     with the link to the survey and phone number.
>>
>>
>>>                     On May 11, 2020, at 05:01, Debra Schrishuhn via
>>>                     Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>                     <mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                     Outstanding, Susan and Niloofar. I took the
>>>                     survey last week and have been spreading the
>>>                     word. The geese are native, just like our
>>>                     corn-fed whitetail deer that sometimes form a
>>>                     traffic hazard in the rural parts of the county.
>>>                     If Crystal Lake kills all but 20 geese, by next
>>>                     year there will be another 80-100 geese in the
>>>                     park because they are widespread in this area.
>>>
>>>                     Absent natural predators (which the park
>>>                     officials would no doubt find even more of a
>>>                     "nuisance") the geese can and should be managed
>>>                     without wholesale slaughter, disingenuously
>>>                     called "Collection and Charity Donation" by park
>>>                     officials who want to soft-pedal their plans.
>>>                     And the plan to donate the meat to food banks
>>>                     may be well-meaning, but it is seriously flawed,
>>>                     as anyone who has ever tried/ learned to cook
>>>                     wild goose meat can attest.
>>>
>>>                     Besides people taking the survey, who can we
>>>                     call today? Here is the main number--call and
>>>                     protest on behalf of the geese. 217.367.1544
>>>                     <tel:%201-217-367-1544>
>>>
>>>                     Now here are the commissioners
>>>
>>>                     *Michael Walker / President*-since 1983,
>>>                     reelected in 2019
>>>
>>>                     *Nancy Delcomyn / Vice President*
>>>                     Commissioner since 1993
>>>                     Next up for election 2023
>>>
>>>                     *Roger Digges / Commissioner* elected in 2019
>>>
>>>                     *Meredith Blumthal / Commissioner*
>>>                     Commissioner since 2010
>>>                     Next up for election 2021
>>>
>>>                     *LaShaunda Cunningham?/ Commissioner*
>>>                     Commissioner since 2015
>>>                     Next up for election 2021
>>>
>>>                     These folks need to feel some community heat.
>>>
>>>                     One for the honkers!
>>>                     Deb
>>>
>>>                     On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:57 AM Niloofar
>>>                     Shambayati via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>                     <mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                         Susan,
>>>
>>>                         Thank you so much for spreading the word
>>>                         about the horrific proposal to slaughter the
>>>                         Crystal Lake's geese to supposedly attract
>>>                         more visitors. Don't they see how ironic it
>>>                         is that the?Park houses Anita Purves?Nature
>>>                         Center, whose?main goal is to help children
>>>                         realize that humans are part of the nature,
>>>                         not its masters?! Can't we accept some
>>>                         "inconveniences" in return for the joy of
>>>                         watching goslings experience life under the
>>>                         protection of their parents, who're partners
>>>                         for life??
>>>
>>>                         Please urge the commissioners to reject this
>>>                         proposal as cruel and of highly dubious
>>>                         effect.??
>>>
>>>                         Niloofar Shambayati
>>>
>>>                         On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 5:48 PM Susan
>>>                         Parenti via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>                         <mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                             The Urbana Park District Board of
>>>                             Commissioners is going to vote on
>>>                             Tuesday night May 12 whether or not they
>>>                             support the Park District's proposal to
>>>                             kill off 60?100 geese in Crystal Lake
>>>                             Park, as a way to manage them and make a
>>>                             balance between number of geese and
>>>                             size/capacities of Park.? (They intend
>>>                             to leave 20 geese alive).
>>>
>>>                             You can see their proposal here :?
>>>                             https://
>>>                             <https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/K6R2HWQ>www.urbanaparks.org/projects/geese-population-and-management
>>>                             <https://www.urbanaparks.org/projects/geese-population-and-management/>
>>>
>>>                             Inside the proposal is a 3 minute survey
>>>                             about how you feel about the geese in
>>>                             the Park?the survey puts the geese in a
>>>                             negative light. But please do the survey
>>>                             now, or at least before 6pm Tuesday
>>>                             night. You don't have to agree with my
>>>                             sentiments.
>>>
>>>                             Here is the survey:?
>>>                             https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/K6R2HWQ
>>>
>>>                             How do I feel about this? Daily I go to
>>>                             the Park to see/hear the geese?they?re
>>>                             the main attraction. The Park District
>>>                             secured a grant to improve Crystal Park,
>>>                             and they feel that the presence of the
>>>                             geese gets in the way of those
>>>                             improvements. .? They say that lots of
>>>                             people won?t go to the Park because of
>>>                             the geese?I don?t know anyone who feels
>>>                             that way. But, mostly, for me the
>>>                             killing off of the geese is a
>>>                             human-centered way of thinking (if it?s
>>>                             good for humans, then it?s fine) and
>>>                             that way of thinking I want to stop as
>>>                             it?s a big component of why we have
>>>                             catastrophic climate change.?
>>>
>>>                             ?GEESEHERDS? ?I propose that given that
>>>                             the swimming pool will be closed all
>>>                             summer, why doesn?t the Park District
>>>                             use 2 ex-pool employees and make them
>>>                             GEESEHERDS?a variation on
>>>                             shep(sheep)herds. These geessherds can
>>>                             take care of the geese, tend to their
>>>                             problems, turn their poop into iron-rich
>>>                             compost. This way the park District is
>>>                             free of taking care of the geese, and
>>>                             two people have a job.?
>>>
>>>                             Please spread the word. We don?t have
>>>                             much time.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                             -- 
>>>                             *Susan Parenti*
>>>                             /Educational Coordinator /
>>>
>>>                             *The School for Designing a Society
>>>                             *www.designingasociety.net
>>>                             <http://www.designingasociety.net/>
>>>
>>>                             /Like us on Facebook
>>>                             <http://www.facebook.com/designasociety>!/
>>>                             _______________________________________________
>>>                             Peace mailing list
>>>                             Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>                             <mailto:Peace at lists.chambana.net>
>>>                             https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>>
>>>                         _______________________________________________
>>>                         Peace mailing list
>>>                         Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>                         <mailto:Peace at lists.chambana.net>
>>>                         https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>>
>>>                     _______________________________________________
>>>                     Peace mailing list
>>>                     Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>                     <mailto:Peace at lists.chambana.net>
>>>                     https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>
>>             _______________________________________________
>>             Peace mailing list
>>             Peace at lists.chambana.net <mailto:Peace at lists.chambana.net>
>>             https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         Peace mailing list
>>         Peace at lists.chambana.net <mailto:Peace at lists.chambana.net>
>>         https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace mailing list
> Peace at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace

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From naiman.uiuc at gmail.com  Mon May 11 19:57:12 2020
From: naiman.uiuc at gmail.com (Robert Naiman)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 15:57:12 -0400
Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] to keep a balance,
 Urb Park proposes to kill 60-100 Crystal lake geese-- read & take
 survey
In-Reply-To: <c4a00cd6-dad1-04d9-9460-6b7f13a55e37@gmail.com>
References: <CAKfUjSF+1nw+T846MqH_aAsq3NKPjqA3A7AV3KNPdz4fo2cn-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFLceay2jw8OYYP=kjPUcnA=LKhu-Z1Et2S81F0qa+uO7Btr6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANDTtdk-F+cQFEkKzcf_dK+K-M7yEg6Xt+i+wf9hOGwVox3U8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <DM6PR13MB28750FAEF3684F74943FD9DDA3A10@DM6PR13MB2875.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
 <CANDTtdkKMScMatTmp3qhoSw495DHi5qS7Fh+0ibLZV8CAw4T7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANDTtdnEzMFSx-Px8dj3ritHcZT2m15sZ4tfy_JVn1nJBVFtAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPnrEOVO5yMmVj2bggLJdC38vbXx8a=RXdNNrZpwdAT5i=xfig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRcBVaDdAqroZw=qRgvCLDzXyzi=5=3_uA5w-uZuwPRe=HGFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPnrEOXTX3dTZzvJrO+thGsaVVVrWAgo2J6oH-0FUGhgJg1P-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFA50D9-2BE4-4CA3-93B3-0A4DACF6D990@gmail.com>
 <c4a00cd6-dad1-04d9-9460-6b7f13a55e37@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMNhNRtkWVE=dDf6iXq=txLwxNmBULTK2fdr8pDAgv7ePRsLw@mail.gmail.com>

Another idea: my understanding is that some dogs have been trained to chase
away geese. So, instead of killing the excess geese, some of the geese
could just be encouraged to move along.

On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:46 PM Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss <
peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

> (Moving to peace-discuss instead of the peace announcements list)
>
> What comes next - yes, this is my thought as well.   The geese are
> occupying an ecological niche.   How long will it take to refill it?   Are
> they just avoiding the labor of goose chasing for a season or two, if they
> kill off 3/4rs of them now?
>
> On 5/11/20 12:36 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace wrote:
>
> We fill our urban spaces with artificial ponds, nicely landscaped with
> lots of regularly mown grass and no predators other than vehicles and
> wonder why the geese congregate, along with ducks, killdeers, herons,
> turtles, and the few species of amphibians not extirpated by pesticides and
> habitat destruction. People forget that this part of Illinois was marshy
> prairie, and though humans drained and paved it for their own uses, the
> animals that were here before us either move elsewhere or make do?wrens and
> robins building nests in gutters and corners of structures, swifts nesting
> in chimneys, opossums and raccoons and those ?damned gray squirrels ?
> foraging in unsecured garbage receptacles...well, list goes on. Want to get
> rid of the geese? Get rid of the water.
>
> The problem I see with the park district?s planned goose slaughter is that
> it does not address what comes next. Other geese will simply move in to
> fill the vacuum. Does the slaughter become an annual event? If geese are
> slaughtered throughout Urbana will geese from Champaign move east? Geese
> are pretty smart birds, but they don?t understand jurisdictional
> boundaries.
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 11, 2020, at 12:06 PM, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:04 PM Lois Steinberg <loisiyoga at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> but there are alternatives to murdering them...
>> Lois
>>
>
> Perhaps there are.  But if you read the actual report from the Urbana Park
> District, you'll see how many different strategies have already been
> employed, in vain.
>
>
>
>
>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:35 AM John W. via Peace <
>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:00 AM Debra Schrishuhn via Peace <
>>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Some are non-native--sort of. They were here; wild populations were
>>>> destroyed; captive geese were introduced
>>>>
>>>> From the book "Wild Neighbors":
>>>>
>>>> "Once decimated by hunting and habitat loss, Canada geese rebounded
>>>> after captive birds were released throughout the country.
>>>>
>>>> "People may be surprised to hear that birds learn to migrate from their
>>>> parents and flock?they don't hatch with this complex knowledge. So released
>>>> geese never learned to fly north and instead took up local residence
>>>> year-round.
>>>>
>>> "We've provided food and safety right here in our cities and suburbs.
>>>> The geese have no reason to go elsewhere, so they settle in and raise
>>>> families....
>>>>
>>>
>>> And to sound a discordant note in this whole conversation, this is why I
>>> don't like the geese around here.  The geese may be native to central
>>> Illinois at certain times of the year, but they're not native to urban
>>> areas and they're not native year-round.  i don't know what the answer is
>>> for Crystal Lake Park, but I think it's ridiculous to see flocks of geese
>>> sauntering across busy streets in the vicinity of North Prospect in
>>> Champaign.  As we humans have done with so many species (like the damned
>>> grey squirrel), we've introduced them to habitats where they don't belong,
>>> and more or less domesticated them until their population gets out of
>>> control and becomes destructive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> "It's one thing to shoo a few geese off a back lawn and another to
>>>> convince a large flock that has used a park for years that they ought to go
>>>> elsewhere. That requires a plan. A coordinated program
>>>> <https://www.humanesociety.org/resources/plan-ahead-make-peace-canada-geese> will
>>>> save in the long run and be more successful....
>>>>
>>>> "Scientific studies do not show that goose droppings pose any special
>>>> health threats. Obviously, people want to avoid contact with any animal
>>>> droppings. Ordinary good hygiene, such as washing hands and leaving shoes
>>>> at the door, are adequate prevention if you accidentally contact animal
>>>> droppings."
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:52 AM Debra Schrishuhn <
>>>> deb.pdamerica at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, please! And thank you (honk).
>>>>>
>>>>> Yesterday in a local place with a pond (not Crystal Lake) I watched
>>>>> goose families move from one pond to another just before a rainstorm. When
>>>>> the goslings were not  going fast enough, the parents shooed them forward
>>>>> by vocalizing and running at them with wings flapping. When crossing roads
>>>>> the adults will not abandon their young to save themselves, but rather urge
>>>>> the young ones ever faster. Geese also form family coops, with multiple
>>>>> broods of youngsters grazing surrounded by multiple pairs of watchful
>>>>> parents.
>>>>>
>>>>> Non-lethal means of control could be by the innovative geeseherd idea
>>>>> or the more usual human nest robbers as the park has done in the past. In
>>>>> fact, given the number of broods at Crystal Lake Park this year I'd say
>>>>> that the nest robbing/egg destruction project was abandoned--dare one
>>>>> suggest that it was done to make the goose problem look more acute? It
>>>>> cannot be because the geese are particularly good at hiding their
>>>>> nests--the park's so-called renovations have taken out much of the
>>>>> underbrush and scrub where they nested (and also decreased significant
>>>>> habitat for local songbirds).
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:36 AM Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you Niloofar and Deb,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just completed the survey, having just now seen it, and I?m furious
>>>>>> over the inhumanity of slaughtering these love creatures. I?m just as
>>>>>> outraged at the genocide or culling as they usually refer to it, of
>>>>>> wildlife, animals as I am of humans.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The upgrades or improvements they are planning would be better left
>>>>>> alone if it requires this slaughter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will with your permission, circulate your letter below, along with
>>>>>> Niloofar?s on FB, along with the link to the survey and phone number.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 11, 2020, at 05:01, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace <
>>>>>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Outstanding, Susan and Niloofar. I took the survey last week and have
>>>>>> been spreading the word. The geese are native, just like our corn-fed
>>>>>> whitetail deer that sometimes form a traffic hazard in the rural parts of
>>>>>> the county. If Crystal Lake kills all but 20 geese, by next year there will
>>>>>> be another 80-100 geese in the park because they are widespread in this
>>>>>> area.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Absent natural predators (which the park officials would no doubt
>>>>>> find even more of a "nuisance") the geese can and should be managed without
>>>>>> wholesale slaughter, disingenuously called "Collection and Charity
>>>>>> Donation" by park officials who want to soft-pedal their plans. And the
>>>>>> plan to donate the meat to food banks may be well-meaning, but it is
>>>>>> seriously flawed, as anyone who has ever tried/ learned to cook wild goose
>>>>>> meat can attest.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Besides people taking the survey, who can we call today? Here is the
>>>>>> main number--call and protest on behalf of the geese. 217.367.1544
>>>>>> <%201-217-367-1544>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now here are the commissioners
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Michael Walker / President*-since 1983, reelected in 2019
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Nancy Delcomyn / Vice President*
>>>>>> Commissioner since 1993
>>>>>> Next up for election 2023
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Roger Digges / Commissioner* elected in 2019
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Meredith Blumthal / Commissioner*
>>>>>> Commissioner since 2010
>>>>>> Next up for election 2021
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *LaShaunda Cunningham / Commissioner*
>>>>>> Commissioner since 2015
>>>>>> Next up for election 2021
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These folks need to feel some community heat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One for the honkers!
>>>>>> Deb
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:57 AM Niloofar Shambayati via Peace <
>>>>>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Susan,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you so much for spreading the word about the horrific proposal
>>>>>>> to slaughter the Crystal Lake's geese to supposedly attract more visitors.
>>>>>>> Don't they see how ironic it is that the Park houses Anita Purves Nature
>>>>>>> Center, whose main goal is to help children realize that humans are part of
>>>>>>> the nature, not its masters?! Can't we accept some "inconveniences" in
>>>>>>> return for the joy of watching goslings experience life under the
>>>>>>> protection of their parents, who're partners for life?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please urge the commissioners to reject this proposal as cruel and
>>>>>>> of highly dubious effect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Niloofar Shambayati
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 5:48 PM Susan Parenti via Peace <
>>>>>>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Urbana Park District Board of Commissioners is going to vote on
>>>>>>>> Tuesday night May 12 whether or not they support the Park District's
>>>>>>>> proposal to kill off 60?100 geese in Crystal Lake Park, as a way to manage
>>>>>>>> them and make a balance between number of geese and size/capacities of
>>>>>>>> Park.  (They intend to leave 20 geese alive).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You can see their proposal here :
>>>>>>>> https:// <https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/K6R2HWQ>
>>>>>>>> www.urbanaparks.org/projects/geese-population-and-management
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Inside the proposal is a 3 minute survey about how you feel about
>>>>>>>> the geese in the Park?the survey puts the geese in a negative light. But
>>>>>>>> please do the survey now, or at least before 6pm Tuesday night. You don't
>>>>>>>> have to agree with my sentiments.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here is the survey:
>>>>>>>> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/K6R2HWQ
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How do I feel about this? Daily I go to the Park to see/hear the
>>>>>>>> geese?they?re the main attraction. The Park District secured a grant to
>>>>>>>> improve Crystal Park, and they feel that the presence of the geese gets in
>>>>>>>> the way of those improvements. .  They say that lots of people won?t go to
>>>>>>>> the Park because of the geese?I don?t know anyone who feels that way. But,
>>>>>>>> mostly, for me the killing off of the geese is a human-centered way of
>>>>>>>> thinking (if it?s good for humans, then it?s fine) and that way of thinking
>>>>>>>> I want to stop as it?s a big component of why we have catastrophic climate
>>>>>>>> change.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?GEESEHERDS?  I propose that given that the swimming pool will be
>>>>>>>> closed all summer, why doesn?t the Park District use 2 ex-pool employees
>>>>>>>> and make them GEESEHERDS?a variation on shep(sheep)herds. These geessherds
>>>>>>>> can take care of the geese, tend to their problems, turn their poop into
>>>>>>>> iron-rich compost. This way the park District is free of taking care of the
>>>>>>>> geese, and two people have a job.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please spread the word. We don?t have much time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> *Susan Parenti*
>>>>>>>> *Educational Coordinator *
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *The School for Designing a Society *www.designingasociety.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Like us on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/designasociety>!*
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Peace mailing list
>>>>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>>>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Peace mailing list
>>>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Peace mailing list
>>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Peace mailing list
>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Peace mailing list
>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace mailing listPeace at lists.chambana.nethttps://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>
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From jbw292002 at gmail.com  Mon May 11 20:14:01 2020
From: jbw292002 at gmail.com (John W.)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 15:14:01 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] to keep a balance,
 Urb Park proposes to kill 60-100 Crystal lake geese-- read & take
 survey
In-Reply-To: <CALMNhNRtkWVE=dDf6iXq=txLwxNmBULTK2fdr8pDAgv7ePRsLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKfUjSF+1nw+T846MqH_aAsq3NKPjqA3A7AV3KNPdz4fo2cn-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFLceay2jw8OYYP=kjPUcnA=LKhu-Z1Et2S81F0qa+uO7Btr6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANDTtdk-F+cQFEkKzcf_dK+K-M7yEg6Xt+i+wf9hOGwVox3U8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <DM6PR13MB28750FAEF3684F74943FD9DDA3A10@DM6PR13MB2875.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
 <CANDTtdkKMScMatTmp3qhoSw495DHi5qS7Fh+0ibLZV8CAw4T7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANDTtdnEzMFSx-Px8dj3ritHcZT2m15sZ4tfy_JVn1nJBVFtAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPnrEOVO5yMmVj2bggLJdC38vbXx8a=RXdNNrZpwdAT5i=xfig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGRcBVaDdAqroZw=qRgvCLDzXyzi=5=3_uA5w-uZuwPRe=HGFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPnrEOXTX3dTZzvJrO+thGsaVVVrWAgo2J6oH-0FUGhgJg1P-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFA50D9-2BE4-4CA3-93B3-0A4DACF6D990@gmail.com>
 <c4a00cd6-dad1-04d9-9460-6b7f13a55e37@gmail.com>
 <CALMNhNRtkWVE=dDf6iXq=txLwxNmBULTK2fdr8pDAgv7ePRsLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPnrEOXMrYR62X0vWwad291LhHVu2PL1WiXhi+8+z8aONv_=pg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:57 PM Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com> wrote:

Another idea: my understanding is that some dogs have been trained to chase
> away geese. So, instead of killing the excess geese, some of the geese
> could just be encouraged to move along.
>

That's one of the things the park district has tried.  From the report:

*A coyote decoy, which must be moved frequently, is one of the management
strategies the park district employed early on. More recently, a licensed
and trained dog hazing service has helped limit goose impacts in portions
of the park.*



> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:46 PM Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
>> (Moving to peace-discuss instead of the peace announcements list)
>>
>> What comes next - yes, this is my thought as well.   The geese are
>> occupying an ecological niche.   How long will it take to refill it?   Are
>> they just avoiding the labor of goose chasing for a season or two, if they
>> kill off 3/4rs of them now?
>>
>> On 5/11/20 12:36 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace wrote:
>>
>> We fill our urban spaces with artificial ponds, nicely landscaped with
>> lots of regularly mown grass and no predators other than vehicles and
>> wonder why the geese congregate, along with ducks, killdeers, herons,
>> turtles, and the few species of amphibians not extirpated by pesticides and
>> habitat destruction. People forget that this part of Illinois was marshy
>> prairie, and though humans drained and paved it for their own uses, the
>> animals that were here before us either move elsewhere or make do?wrens and
>> robins building nests in gutters and corners of structures, swifts nesting
>> in chimneys, opossums and raccoons and those ?damned gray squirrels ?
>> foraging in unsecured garbage receptacles...well, list goes on. Want to get
>> rid of the geese? Get rid of the water.
>>
>> The problem I see with the park district?s planned goose slaughter is
>> that it does not address what comes next. Other geese will simply move in
>> to fill the vacuum. Does the slaughter become an annual event? If geese are
>> slaughtered throughout Urbana will geese from Champaign move east? Geese
>> are pretty smart birds, but they don?t understand jurisdictional
>> boundaries.
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On May 11, 2020, at 12:06 PM, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:04 PM Lois Steinberg <loisiyoga at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> but there are alternatives to murdering them...
>>> Lois
>>>
>>
>> Perhaps there are.  But if you read the actual report from the Urbana
>> Park District, you'll see how many different strategies have already been
>> employed, in vain.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:35 AM John W. via Peace <
>>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:00 AM Debra Schrishuhn via Peace <
>>>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some are non-native--sort of. They were here; wild populations were
>>>>> destroyed; captive geese were introduced
>>>>>
>>>>> From the book "Wild Neighbors":
>>>>>
>>>>> "Once decimated by hunting and habitat loss, Canada geese rebounded
>>>>> after captive birds were released throughout the country.
>>>>>
>>>>> "People may be surprised to hear that birds learn to migrate from
>>>>> their parents and flock?they don't hatch with this complex knowledge. So
>>>>> released geese never learned to fly north and instead took up local
>>>>> residence year-round.
>>>>>
>>>> "We've provided food and safety right here in our cities and suburbs.
>>>>> The geese have no reason to go elsewhere, so they settle in and raise
>>>>> families....
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And to sound a discordant note in this whole conversation, this is why
>>>> I don't like the geese around here.  The geese may be native to central
>>>> Illinois at certain times of the year, but they're not native to urban
>>>> areas and they're not native year-round.  i don't know what the answer is
>>>> for Crystal Lake Park, but I think it's ridiculous to see flocks of geese
>>>> sauntering across busy streets in the vicinity of North Prospect in
>>>> Champaign.  As we humans have done with so many species (like the damned
>>>> grey squirrel), we've introduced them to habitats where they don't belong,
>>>> and more or less domesticated them until their population gets out of
>>>> control and becomes destructive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "It's one thing to shoo a few geese off a back lawn and another to
>>>>> convince a large flock that has used a park for years that they ought to go
>>>>> elsewhere. That requires a plan. A coordinated program
>>>>> <https://www.humanesociety.org/resources/plan-ahead-make-peace-canada-geese> will
>>>>> save in the long run and be more successful....
>>>>>
>>>>> "Scientific studies do not show that goose droppings pose any special
>>>>> health threats. Obviously, people want to avoid contact with any animal
>>>>> droppings. Ordinary good hygiene, such as washing hands and leaving shoes
>>>>> at the door, are adequate prevention if you accidentally contact animal
>>>>> droppings."
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:52 AM Debra Schrishuhn <
>>>>> deb.pdamerica at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, please! And thank you (honk).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yesterday in a local place with a pond (not Crystal Lake) I watched
>>>>>> goose families move from one pond to another just before a rainstorm. When
>>>>>> the goslings were not  going fast enough, the parents shooed them forward
>>>>>> by vocalizing and running at them with wings flapping. When crossing roads
>>>>>> the adults will not abandon their young to save themselves, but rather urge
>>>>>> the young ones ever faster. Geese also form family coops, with multiple
>>>>>> broods of youngsters grazing surrounded by multiple pairs of watchful
>>>>>> parents.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Non-lethal means of control could be by the innovative geeseherd idea
>>>>>> or the more usual human nest robbers as the park has done in the past. In
>>>>>> fact, given the number of broods at Crystal Lake Park this year I'd say
>>>>>> that the nest robbing/egg destruction project was abandoned--dare one
>>>>>> suggest that it was done to make the goose problem look more acute? It
>>>>>> cannot be because the geese are particularly good at hiding their
>>>>>> nests--the park's so-called renovations have taken out much of the
>>>>>> underbrush and scrub where they nested (and also decreased significant
>>>>>> habitat for local songbirds).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:36 AM Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you Niloofar and Deb,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just completed the survey, having just now seen it, and I?m
>>>>>>> furious over the inhumanity of slaughtering these love creatures. I?m just
>>>>>>> as outraged at the genocide or culling as they usually refer to it, of
>>>>>>> wildlife, animals as I am of humans.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The upgrades or improvements they are planning would be better left
>>>>>>> alone if it requires this slaughter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I will with your permission, circulate your letter below, along with
>>>>>>> Niloofar?s on FB, along with the link to the survey and phone number.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 11, 2020, at 05:01, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace <
>>>>>>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Outstanding, Susan and Niloofar. I took the survey last week and
>>>>>>> have been spreading the word. The geese are native, just like our corn-fed
>>>>>>> whitetail deer that sometimes form a traffic hazard in the rural parts of
>>>>>>> the county. If Crystal Lake kills all but 20 geese, by next year there will
>>>>>>> be another 80-100 geese in the park because they are widespread in this
>>>>>>> area.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Absent natural predators (which the park officials would no doubt
>>>>>>> find even more of a "nuisance") the geese can and should be managed without
>>>>>>> wholesale slaughter, disingenuously called "Collection and Charity
>>>>>>> Donation" by park officials who want to soft-pedal their plans. And the
>>>>>>> plan to donate the meat to food banks may be well-meaning, but it is
>>>>>>> seriously flawed, as anyone who has ever tried/ learned to cook wild goose
>>>>>>> meat can attest.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Besides people taking the survey, who can we call today? Here is the
>>>>>>> main number--call and protest on behalf of the geese. 217.367.1544
>>>>>>> <%201-217-367-1544>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now here are the commissioners
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Michael Walker / President*-since 1983, reelected in 2019
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Nancy Delcomyn / Vice President*
>>>>>>> Commissioner since 1993
>>>>>>> Next up for election 2023
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Roger Digges / Commissioner* elected in 2019
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Meredith Blumthal / Commissioner*
>>>>>>> Commissioner since 2010
>>>>>>> Next up for election 2021
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *LaShaunda Cunningham / Commissioner*
>>>>>>> Commissioner since 2015
>>>>>>> Next up for election 2021
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These folks need to feel some community heat.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One for the honkers!
>>>>>>> Deb
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:57 AM Niloofar Shambayati via Peace <
>>>>>>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Susan,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you so much for spreading the word about the horrific
>>>>>>>> proposal to slaughter the Crystal Lake's geese to supposedly attract more
>>>>>>>> visitors. Don't they see how ironic it is that the Park houses Anita
>>>>>>>> Purves Nature Center, whose main goal is to help children realize that
>>>>>>>> humans are part of the nature, not its masters?! Can't we accept some
>>>>>>>> "inconveniences" in return for the joy of watching goslings experience life
>>>>>>>> under the protection of their parents, who're partners for life?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please urge the commissioners to reject this proposal as cruel and
>>>>>>>> of highly dubious effect.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Niloofar Shambayati
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 5:48 PM Susan Parenti via Peace <
>>>>>>>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Urbana Park District Board of Commissioners is going to vote
>>>>>>>>> on Tuesday night May 12 whether or not they support the Park District's
>>>>>>>>> proposal to kill off 60?100 geese in Crystal Lake Park, as a way to manage
>>>>>>>>> them and make a balance between number of geese and size/capacities of
>>>>>>>>> Park.  (They intend to leave 20 geese alive).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You can see their proposal here :
>>>>>>>>> https:// <https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/K6R2HWQ>
>>>>>>>>> www.urbanaparks.org/projects/geese-population-and-management
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Inside the proposal is a 3 minute survey about how you feel about
>>>>>>>>> the geese in the Park?the survey puts the geese in a negative light. But
>>>>>>>>> please do the survey now, or at least before 6pm Tuesday night. You don't
>>>>>>>>> have to agree with my sentiments.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here is the survey:
>>>>>>>>> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/K6R2HWQ
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How do I feel about this? Daily I go to the Park to see/hear the
>>>>>>>>> geese?they?re the main attraction. The Park District secured a grant to
>>>>>>>>> improve Crystal Park, and they feel that the presence of the geese gets in
>>>>>>>>> the way of those improvements. .  They say that lots of people won?t go to
>>>>>>>>> the Park because of the geese?I don?t know anyone who feels that way. But,
>>>>>>>>> mostly, for me the killing off of the geese is a human-centered way of
>>>>>>>>> thinking (if it?s good for humans, then it?s fine) and that way of thinking
>>>>>>>>> I want to stop as it?s a big component of why we have catastrophic climate
>>>>>>>>> change.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ?GEESEHERDS?  I propose that given that the swimming pool will be
>>>>>>>>> closed all summer, why doesn?t the Park District use 2 ex-pool employees
>>>>>>>>> and make them GEESEHERDS?a variation on shep(sheep)herds. These geessherds
>>>>>>>>> can take care of the geese, tend to their problems, turn their poop into
>>>>>>>>> iron-rich compost. This way the park District is free of taking care of the
>>>>>>>>> geese, and two people have a job.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please spread the word. We don?t have much time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> *Susan Parenti*
>>>>>>>>> *Educational Coordinator *
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *The School for Designing a Society *www.designingasociety.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Like us on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/designasociety>!*
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Peace mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Peace mailing list
>>>>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>>>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Peace mailing list
>>>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Peace mailing list
>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Peace mailing list
>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Peace mailing listPeace at lists.chambana.nethttps://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>
>
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Mon May 11 21:37:49 2020
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 14:37:49 -0700
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: [Peace] to keep a balance,
 Urb Park proposes to kill 60-100 Crystal lake geese-- read & take
 survey
References: <DM6PR13MB2875324073071D4CBF40E2BDA3A10@DM6PR13MB2875.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <DM6PR13MB287599CD125F91B757CB3BBAA3A10@DM6PR13MB2875.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>


>  <https://www.facebook.com/karen.aram.1#>
> STOP THE SLAUGHTER OF WILDLIFE!!!!
>  <https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10221966755707201&set=gm.10158325025756306&type=3&eid=ARCimCRlu95HCm7vOT718BKtZjb8g7VmgVgGb_dTD_P5ySUhPUfoCRVoX62nnZUj8EcJalieR-wAljFB>
> Please join us in a protest opposing the slaughter of 60-100 wild geese in Cyrstal Park, at 12 noon, Tuesday May 12, at the corner in the park of Broadway and Park?Champaign/Urbana Il. Please bring signs. We will be utilizing 6 feet physical distancing, masks and gloves.
> 

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From jbn at forestfield.org  Mon May 11 22:13:34 2020
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 17:13:34 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Crowdstrike admits they have no evidence to back
 Russiagate accusations
Message-ID: <4325cf39-8f65-5898-9685-bc00750a09fc@forestfield.org>

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5Sw7TbmfN8 -- Aaron Mat? reports on the 
latest testimony Crowdstrike president Shawn Henry (14m 6s)

Article: 
https://thegrayzone.com/2020/05/11/bombshell-crowdstrike-admits-no-evidence-russia-stole-emails-from-dnc-server/ 
reads:

> Crowdstrike, the firm behind the Russian email hacking allegation at the core of
> Russiagate, makes a bombshell admission: ?We did not have concrete evidence.?
> 
> In newly released Congressional testimony, Crowdstrike president Shawn Henry said
> that ?we did not have concrete evidence? that alleged Russian hackers actually
> took the emails from DNC servers. ?There?s circumstantial evidence, but no
> evidence that they were actually exfiltrated,? Henry said.
> 
> Aaron Mat? breaks down Henry?s testimony and why it adds new doubt about the core
> allegation at the heart of Russiagate.

and has a pointer including the aforementioned video.

Crowdstrike is the source for the ongoing and widely-repeated but utterly false 
allegations that the DNC emails were exfiltrated by Russians, and that this is how 
WikiLeaks got their copy of that data. The Democrats have been using this story to 
help explain away Hillary Clinton's remarkable second loss to a first-time 
presidential candidate (first time Barack Obama, this time Donald Trump). It turns 
out that Russiagate story after Russiagate story falls apart on analysis undermining 
the entire baseless conspiracy theory. Now Crowdstrike has apparently shifted from 
pushing the Russiagate narrative to admitting that they "did not have concrete 
evidence" to back up their own earlier claims when giving Congressional testimony.

In a somewhat related story, the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign is 
undergoing a push to adopt Crowdstrike's software across all UIUC-owned computers. 
This might even be a University-wide push encompassing all computers owned by any of 
the UI campuses. The software purports to analyze the activity on a computer on which 
the Crowdstrike software is installed to predict, stymie, and notify administrators 
about behavior characterized (by Crowdstrike) as malicious. This will be done by 
monitoring the computer's activity (storage activity, network activity, and more), 
and reporting on such activity to a central database maintained by Crowdstrike. This 
was described in https://answers.illinois.edu/93944 (among other documents on 
answers.illinois.edu) and 
https://techservices.illinois.edu/services/endpoint-security-crowdstrike/details (an 
overview of the service).

From jbn at forestfield.org  Mon May 11 22:19:54 2020
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 17:19:54 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Crowdstrike admits they have no evidence to
 back Russiagate accusations
In-Reply-To: <4325cf39-8f65-5898-9685-bc00750a09fc@forestfield.org>
References: <4325cf39-8f65-5898-9685-bc00750a09fc@forestfield.org>
Message-ID: <c7c194a3-df49-a1f2-061c-91f8e38b8144@forestfield.org>

I wrote:
> Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5Sw7TbmfN8 -- Aaron Mat? reports on the 
> latest testimony Crowdstrike president Shawn Henry (14m 6s)

And Jimmy Dore is interviewing Mat? live now on 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stXTg6ErFrg

From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com  Tue May 12 18:36:18 2020
From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 13:36:18 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] a better solution for excess geese
Message-ID: <CANDTtdm_zhWN=k_yuxtwZGqBYB+2z=ttckbaNUZLf7jyXe4yjA@mail.gmail.com>

Folks,

I just talked to a city planner and she confirmed what has been stated
here--that the geese are attracted to man-made ponds with manicured
bluegrass lawns down to the water's edge. Apparently a fair amount of
research exists on plants and the height of bank vegetation that geese do
not like. She suggests an ordinance be brought before both city councils to
end the practice of making retention pond and to plant their banks with
vegetation known to be unpalatable to geese.  Although this solution may
not be acceptable all over the Twin Cities, at the very least Crystal Lake
Park could rethink their bank vegetation and overall landscaping.

Deb
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From niloofar.peace at gmail.com  Tue May 12 19:50:06 2020
From: niloofar.peace at gmail.com (Niloofar Shambayati)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 14:50:06 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] a better solution for excess geese
In-Reply-To: <CANDTtdm_zhWN=k_yuxtwZGqBYB+2z=ttckbaNUZLf7jyXe4yjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANDTtdm_zhWN=k_yuxtwZGqBYB+2z=ttckbaNUZLf7jyXe4yjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFLceazZSSMNcV76wwkKDUNTd2+pmSoD=w_Qo72H=OKcNAfRCg@mail.gmail.com>

Deb,

Thanks for talking with experts. Apparently, the Urbana Park District
people have not bothered to seek help from knowledgeable people. Will you
bring this issue up at the Commissionaires' Zoom meeting this evening?

On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 1:37 PM Debra Schrishuhn via Peace <
peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

> Folks,
>
> I just talked to a city planner and she confirmed what has been stated
> here--that the geese are attracted to man-made ponds with manicured
> bluegrass lawns down to the water's edge. Apparently a fair amount of
> research exists on plants and the height of bank vegetation that geese do
> not like. She suggests an ordinance be brought before both city councils to
> end the practice of making retention pond and to plant their banks with
> vegetation known to be unpalatable to geese.  Although this solution may
> not be acceptable all over the Twin Cities, at the very least Crystal Lake
> Park could rethink their bank vegetation and overall landscaping.
>
> Deb
> _______________________________________________
> Peace mailing list
> Peace at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>
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From jbn at forestfield.org  Tue May 12 20:36:24 2020
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 15:36:24 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Crowdstrike admits they have no evidence to
 back Russiagate accusations
In-Reply-To: <c7c194a3-df49-a1f2-061c-91f8e38b8144@forestfield.org>
References: <4325cf39-8f65-5898-9685-bc00750a09fc@forestfield.org>
 <c7c194a3-df49-a1f2-061c-91f8e38b8144@forestfield.org>
Message-ID: <8618e253-7c6e-58c7-5aff-8e91777334be@forestfield.org>

I wrote:
> And Jimmy Dore is interviewing Mat? live now [...]

Two videos from this segment are available now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRoTGlQ4JMA -- "Final Nail in Russiagate coffin: 
Crowdstrike admits 'No Evidence'"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGNGv384nKE -- Chris Hayes says MSNBC is controlled 
by Russia!

And, yes, the show is quite clear that even though Crowdstrike's admission /should/ 
be the final nail in the Russiagate coffin, neocons and neolibs keep Russiagate alive 
because it's still useful for various other ends. Jimmy Dore's friend Malcolm says, 
"The hilarious thing is that MSNBC hosts accuse Aaron [Mat?] and Glenn Greenwald of 
being controlled by Russia and yet here's Chris Hayes defending himself by saying 
that Russia controls him and the other MSNBC hosts!" (see the end of 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGNGv384nKE for this).

From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com  Tue May 12 23:38:37 2020
From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 18:38:37 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] a better solution for excess geese
In-Reply-To: <CAFLceazZSSMNcV76wwkKDUNTd2+pmSoD=w_Qo72H=OKcNAfRCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANDTtdm_zhWN=k_yuxtwZGqBYB+2z=ttckbaNUZLf7jyXe4yjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFLceazZSSMNcV76wwkKDUNTd2+pmSoD=w_Qo72H=OKcNAfRCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7F24A933-1E9E-4466-B222-1445D559AA98@gmail.com>

Wish I could. Have a conflict, but you have the information 

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 12, 2020, at 2:50 PM, Niloofar Shambayati <niloofar.peace at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Deb, 
> 
> Thanks for talking with experts. Apparently, the Urbana Park District people have not bothered to seek help from knowledgeable people. Will you bring this issue up at the Commissionaires' Zoom meeting this evening? 
> 
>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 1:37 PM Debra Schrishuhn via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> Folks,
>> 
>> I just talked to a city planner and she confirmed what has been stated here--that the geese are attracted to man-made ponds with manicured bluegrass lawns down to the water's edge. Apparently a fair amount of research exists on plants and the height of bank vegetation that geese do not like. She suggests an ordinance be brought before both city councils to end the practice of making retention pond and to plant their banks with vegetation known to be unpalatable to geese.  Although this solution may not be acceptable all over the Twin Cities, at the very least Crystal Lake Park could rethink their bank vegetation and overall landscaping.
>> 
>> Deb
>> _______________________________________________
>> Peace mailing list
>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
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From brussel at illinois.edu  Thu May 14 03:56:24 2020
From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 03:56:24 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] David Swanson has much of it right
Message-ID: <0AFBD1BD-E8FF-49EF-AA9F-144D477D25B4@illinois.edu>

He?s truly anti-war, some would say ?extremely":

https://davidswanson.org/i-wish-there-really-were-a-plot-to-create-a-global-government/

An effective activist.


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From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net  Thu May 14 17:54:30 2020
From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 12:54:30 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Stop Trying to Shame Socialists Into Voting for Joe
	Biden. It's Not Going to Work
Message-ID: <00cb01d62a18$b8650c20$292f2460$@comcast.net>

 

Stop Trying to Shame Socialists Into Voting for Joe Biden. It's Not Going to
Work.

By

 <https://jacobinmag.com/author/paul-heideman> Paul Heideman 

The New York Times attack yesterday on socialists who won't endorse Joe
Biden isn't actually about convincing socialists to vote for him - it's
about performatively denouncing leftists as irresponsible, for the
edification of the liberals who are watching.

 

In the New York Times yesterday,
<https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/opinion/socialists-support-biden-electio
n.html> Mitchell Abidor added his voice to the swelling chorus hectoring
young leftists to support Joe Biden. Leaning on the
<https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/letter-new-left-biden/> bathetic
open letter published by veterans of Students for a Democratic Society
(SDS), Abidor chides the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) for not
heeding their elders and endorsing a candidate whose career has been spent
opposing
<https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/socialists-biden-vote-november/>
everything they stand for.

Abidor's letter is remarkable for the utter lack of effort it puts into
making a single convincing argument. He scoffs at Daniel Finn's
<https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/04/sds-new-left-joe-biden-letter> argument
in Jacobin that Donald Trump is no fascist, but he evidently doesn't believe
his reader requires any convincing on the point. (The irony involved in
comparing Trump to fascists openly, in the pages of the country's leading
newspaper, is evidently lost on him.)

But Mr. Abidor's op-ed isn't actually about convincing socialists to vote
for Joe Biden. Instead, it's about reassuring liberals that socialists are
bad and irresponsible.

Everyone knows that attacking leftists for abandoning decency will probably
not convince them to vote for Biden. And if convincing people to vote for
Biden is so important that it merits denouncing DSA in the New York Times
for declining to do so, you'd think that such convincing is what Abidor
would try to do. The fact that he himself declines to do so undermines his
presentation of his position as the result of sober consideration, and DSA's
as driven by self-righteousness. Abidor attacks the Left for not wanting to
elect Biden, but he himself cares more about attacking the Left than
electing Biden.

The great irony of this is that many, many DSA members embrace a position
that is not far distant from Abidor's. As
<https://www.nj.com/opinion/2020/05/should-democratic-socialists-endorse-joe
-biden.html> two New Jersey DSA members put it recently:

We believe swing state leftists should vote Biden, not because he deserves
it but because a Democratic administration offers more fertile ground for
the left than a Republican one, where we desperately scramble to fight for
basic union, reproductive, immigrant, and queer/trans rights. For those
seeking to build third-party power, we'll do better under a Democrat as
well, since Trump generates a false sense of "resistance" unity that
obscures the deep divisions within the Dems.

Others in the organization disagree, of course, with some arguing DSA
members should never vote Democrat, and others arguing that even in places
like New York and California, DSA members should vote Biden. That's what a
big-tent organization looks like.

If Abidor (and his editors at the New York Times) were actually the
cool-headed political realists they present themselves as, they might be
focused on these debates in the organization, and they might take an
interest in its activities and life beyond Twitter.

The fact that liberals pretend to be hardheaded realists while remaining as
enthralled to the passions of their position as the wildest revolutionary
goes a long way toward explaining the revulsion with which these kinds of
arguments are received - even by people, like me, who are sympathetic to
arguments for swing-state voting. We are accused of having abandoned decency
by people practicing the rankest hypocrisy in their arguments. No wonder so
many of us are contemptuous of contemporary liberalism.

Most socialists will undoubtedly react to Abidor's argument in precisely the
same manner he would react to us publishing a piece accusing him of
betraying the international working class by voting for an imperialist
party: by ignoring it. Abidor is free to use us as target practice so that
he and other liberals can congratulate one another on how realistic and
responsible they are, but he can hardly expect us to be interested in that
exercise.

Meanwhile, if liberals think that Joe Biden needs DSA's votes, they should
try something new for a change and actually work on convincing us. They've
put considerable time and effort into
<https://newrepublic.com/article/146345/democrats-risky-pursuit-suburban-rep
ublicans> thinking about how to win over Republican voters, and it wasn't by
calling them racist lunatics. If liberals want socialists voting for their
party, they can start by showing us the same level of courtesy.

 

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From davidgreen50 at gmail.com  Thu May 14 18:15:08 2020
From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 13:15:08 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Stop Trying to Shame Socialists Into Voting for
 Joe Biden. It's Not Going to Work
In-Reply-To: <00cb01d62a18$b8650c20$292f2460$@comcast.net>
References: <00cb01d62a18$b8650c20$292f2460$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAOiGAyHtNJS5hUCdqgMGseOZoZw0h5w7mVgpQRKiK5Rs9Fp4zg@mail.gmail.com>

Frankly, it's a rather ridiculous exercise all around; the DSA votes in
contested states can't possibly add up to much anyway. Biden will win
Brooklyn and Boston, not to mention IL.

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 12:54 PM David Johnson via Peace-discuss <
peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

>
>
> *Stop Trying to Shame Socialists Into Voting for Joe Biden. It?s Not Going
> to Work.*
>
> By
>
> Paul Heideman <https://jacobinmag.com/author/paul-heideman>
>
> The *New York Times* attack yesterday on socialists who won?t endorse Joe
> Biden isn?t actually about convincing socialists to vote for him ? it?s
> about performatively denouncing leftists as irresponsible, for the
> edification of the liberals who are watching.
>
>
>
> In the *New York Times* yesterday, Mitchell Abidor
> <https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/opinion/socialists-support-biden-election.html>
> added his voice to the swelling chorus hectoring young leftists to support
> Joe Biden. Leaning on the bathetic open letter
> <https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/letter-new-left-biden/>
> published by veterans of Students for a Democratic Society (SDS), Abidor
> chides the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) for not heeding their
> elders and endorsing a candidate whose career has been spent opposing everything
> they stand for
> <https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/socialists-biden-vote-november/>
> .
>
> Abidor?s letter is remarkable for the utter lack of effort it puts into
> making a single convincing argument. He scoffs at Daniel Finn?s argument
> <https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/04/sds-new-left-joe-biden-letter> in
> *Jacobin* that Donald Trump is no fascist, but he evidently doesn?t
> believe his reader requires any convincing on the point. (The irony
> involved in comparing Trump to fascists openly, in the pages of the
> country?s leading newspaper, is evidently lost on him.)
>
> But Mr. Abidor?s op-ed isn?t actually about convincing socialists to vote
> for Joe Biden. Instead, it?s about reassuring liberals that socialists are
> bad and irresponsible.
>
> Everyone knows that attacking leftists for abandoning decency will
> probably not convince them to vote for Biden. And if convincing people to
> vote for Biden is so important that it merits denouncing DSA in the *New
> York Times* for declining to do so, you?d think that such convincing is
> what Abidor would try to do. The fact that he himself declines to do so
> undermines his presentation of his position as the result of sober
> consideration, and DSA?s as driven by self-righteousness. Abidor attacks
> the Left for not wanting to elect Biden, but he himself cares more about
> attacking the Left than electing Biden.
>
> The great irony of this is that many, many DSA members embrace a position
> that is not far distant from Abidor?s. As two New Jersey DSA members
> <https://www.nj.com/opinion/2020/05/should-democratic-socialists-endorse-joe-biden.html>
> put it recently:
>
> We believe swing state leftists should vote Biden, not because he deserves
> it but because a Democratic administration offers more fertile ground for
> the left than a Republican one, where we desperately scramble to fight for
> basic union, reproductive, immigrant, and queer/trans rights. For those
> seeking to build third-party power, we?ll do better under a Democrat as
> well, since Trump generates a false sense of ?resistance? unity that
> obscures the deep divisions within the Dems.
>
> Others in the organization disagree, of course, with some arguing DSA
> members should never vote Democrat, and others arguing that even in places
> like New York and California, DSA members should vote Biden. That?s what a
> big-tent organization looks like.
>
> If Abidor (and his editors at the *New York Times*) were actually the
> cool-headed political realists they present themselves as, they might be
> focused on these debates in the organization, and they might take an
> interest in its activities and life beyond Twitter.
>
> The fact that liberals pretend to be hardheaded realists while remaining
> as enthralled to the passions of their position as the wildest
> revolutionary goes a long way toward explaining the revulsion with which
> these kinds of arguments are received ? even by people, like me, who are
> sympathetic to arguments for swing-state voting. We are accused of having
> abandoned decency by people practicing the rankest hypocrisy in their
> arguments. No wonder so many of us are contemptuous of contemporary
> liberalism.
>
> Most socialists will undoubtedly react to Abidor?s argument in precisely
> the same manner he would react to us publishing a piece accusing him of
> betraying the international working class by voting for an imperialist
> party: by ignoring it. Abidor is free to use us as target practice so that
> he and other liberals can congratulate one another on how realistic and
> responsible they are, but he can hardly expect us to be interested in that
> exercise.
>
> Meanwhile, if liberals think that Joe Biden needs DSA?s votes, they should
> try something new for a change and actually work on convincing us. They?ve
> put considerable time and effort into thinking about how to win over
> Republican voters
> <https://newrepublic.com/article/146345/democrats-risky-pursuit-suburban-republicans>,
> and it wasn?t by calling them racist lunatics. If liberals want socialists
> voting for their party, they can start by showing us the same level of
> courtesy.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>
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From davidgreen50 at gmail.com  Fri May 15 00:00:11 2020
From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 19:00:11 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Resources re economic effects of & political
 response to COVID-19
Message-ID: <CAOiGAyEEstzKdF3d6MHR7-BGGcNNk6Pz6cQVXqDXj16xTJnhXw@mail.gmail.com>

https://eand.co/the-american-economy-is-imploding-and-america-is-too-e998d3cfb1d9


https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2020/05/tom-ferguson-big-business-takes-cash-as-workers-laid-off-states-and-cities-go-bust.html
(Thomas
Ferguson)

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2020/05/people-and-jobs-or-wealth-the-government-has-to-decide-which-to-prioritise-and-there-is-only-one-right-answer.html

https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2020/05/02/the-scarring/ (Michael
Roberts)

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/05/11/mass-unemployment-is-a-failure-of-capitalism/
(Richard Wolff)
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From jbn at forestfield.org  Fri May 15 01:59:29 2020
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 20:59:29 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?The_American_Economy_is_Imploding_?=
 =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=94_and_America_is=2C_Too?=
Message-ID: <550789ec-080b-d6c5-0542-208b3aa18af1@forestfield.org>

https://eand.co/the-american-economy-is-imploding-and-america-is-too-e998d3cfb1d9 -- 
Umair Haque's "The American Economy is Imploding ? and America is, Too". This essay 
is getting some coverage in the alternative media.

Reactions?

-J

From brussel at illinois.edu  Fri May 15 04:01:15 2020
From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 04:01:15 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?The_American_Economy_is_Imploding_?=
 =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=94_and_America_is=2C_Too?=
In-Reply-To: <550789ec-080b-d6c5-0542-208b3aa18af1@forestfield.org>
References: <550789ec-080b-d6c5-0542-208b3aa18af1@forestfield.org>
Message-ID: <B41988AE-4059-49B6-9B58-4FE3984B9FA3@illinois.edu>

It doesn?t have to go the way this author describes. Suitably increased taxing of the wealthy and corporations canner redistributive, and  thereby create social safety nets. Employment can be increased with federally supported infrastructure, government projects, as was done in the 30?s.   But with the government we now have, it will be difficult. That will have to be changed. 

But I?m no economist or political scientist.  I just think that there are alternative governmental  policies possible that he omits in his dark scenario. 

> On May 14, 2020, at 8:59 PM, J.B. Nicholson via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> 
> https://eand.co/the-american-economy-is-imploding-and-america-is-too-e998d3cfb1d9 -- Umair Haque's "The American Economy is Imploding ? and America is, Too". This essay is getting some coverage in the alternative media.
> 
> Reactions?
> 
> -J
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss


From brussel at illinois.edu  Sat May 16 01:26:18 2020
From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 01:26:18 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Bennis opinions on election
Message-ID: <D6C48182-2380-4922-8FA5-1FD50F0EAAF7@illinois.edu>

https://theanalysis.news/interviews/trump-a-unique-danger-unaccountable-to-ruling-elites-or-public-phyllis-bennis/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Leo%2CPhyllis%2CTom%2CJuice+(Copy)<https://theanalysis.news/interviews/trump-a-unique-danger-unaccountable-to-ruling-elites-or-public-phyllis-bennis/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Leo,Phyllis,Tom,Juice+(Copy)>

Interview with Paul Jay.
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From davidgreen50 at gmail.com  Sun May 17 17:28:40 2020
From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 12:28:40 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Recommendations for AOTA/NFN timeslots
In-Reply-To: <12840cb0-cede-5f9a-5086-90cdf285a294@forestfield.org>
References: <12840cb0-cede-5f9a-5086-90cdf285a294@forestfield.org>
Message-ID: <CAOiGAyHJ-MDEd22wdfQHc=CbWeFrDTgcpFoNg0f1+Bycy+NDNQ@mail.gmail.com>

I highly recommend both segments of the Moderate Rebels Israel program,
although some may not be as wonky about the Kahanists discussed in the 2nd
segment as I am.

DG

On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 9:54 AM J.B. Nicholson <jbn at forestfield.org> wrote:

> Hi Jason,
>
> Here are some more recommendations for AOTA & NFN timeslots.
>
>
>
> Moderate Rebels
>
> Russia
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctp5a21Mtvs -- (1h 12m 18s) Historian
> Peter Kuznick
> on how the USA erased the USSR victory over Nazi Germany.
>
> Israel
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJdfGury5Sc -- (1h 22m 13s) "Israel
> protects fascists
> suspected in bombing terror attack on Palestinian American"
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COfIJOt3cmg -- (1h 14m 39s) "Netanyahu's
> coronavirus
> coalition consolidates apartheid: Inside Israel's extremism with David
> Sheen"
>
>
>
> The Intercept
>
> Interpreting the Flynn prosecution and related matters
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB26jj0jrjc -- (1h 45m) Glenn Greenwald
> holds forth
> on a defensible interpretation of "The Sham Prosecution of Michael Flynn"
> (per its
> title) and related matters.
>
>
>
> RT
>
> Venezuelan coup attempt fails again
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zpSM-BCcn0 -- (24m 34s) Watching the
> Hawks discussion
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPAoVlszisc -- (5m) Guaido allegedly met
> mercenary
> firm chief in White House
>
> Weapons of Mass Destruction
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY-kkkBUIIg -- (6m 01s) UK Government
> "mistakes" on
> WMDs cost 1.3bn pounds
>
> -J
>
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From stuartnlevy at gmail.com  Sun May 17 18:14:09 2020
From: stuartnlevy at gmail.com (Stuart Levy)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 13:14:09 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Recommendations for AOTA/NFN timeslots
In-Reply-To: <CAOiGAyHJ-MDEd22wdfQHc=CbWeFrDTgcpFoNg0f1+Bycy+NDNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <12840cb0-cede-5f9a-5086-90cdf285a294@forestfield.org>
 <CAOiGAyHJ-MDEd22wdfQHc=CbWeFrDTgcpFoNg0f1+Bycy+NDNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e2ca2632-1b44-1d1d-8ef9-10cd3ac184a5@gmail.com>

Speaking of which, WRFU is still broadcasting the latest episodes of
both on Sat and Sun afternoons, with a 1-hour slot for each.?? I could
take those off if you wish, or update them.

On 5/17/20 12:28 PM, David Green via Peace-discuss wrote:
> I highly recommend both segments of the Moderate Rebels Israel
> program, although some may not be as wonky about the Kahanists
> discussed in the 2nd segment as I am.
>
> DG
>
> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 9:54 AM J.B. Nicholson <jbn at forestfield.org
> <mailto:jbn at forestfield.org>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Jason,
>
>     Here are some more recommendations for AOTA & NFN timeslots.
>
>
>
>     Moderate Rebels
>
>     Russia
>     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctp5a21Mtvs -- (1h 12m 18s)
>     Historian Peter Kuznick
>     on how the USA erased the USSR victory over Nazi Germany.
>
>     Israel
>     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJdfGury5Sc -- (1h 22m 13s)
>     "Israel protects fascists
>     suspected in bombing terror attack on Palestinian American"
>     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COfIJOt3cmg -- (1h 14m 39s)
>     "Netanyahu's coronavirus
>     coalition consolidates apartheid: Inside Israel's extremism with
>     David Sheen"
>
>
>
>     The Intercept
>
>     Interpreting the Flynn prosecution and related matters
>     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB26jj0jrjc -- (1h 45m) Glenn
>     Greenwald holds forth
>     on a defensible interpretation of "The Sham Prosecution of Michael
>     Flynn" (per its
>     title) and related matters.
>
>
>
>     RT
>
>     Venezuelan coup attempt fails again
>     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zpSM-BCcn0 -- (24m 34s) Watching
>     the Hawks discussion
>     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPAoVlszisc -- (5m) Guaido
>     allegedly met mercenary
>     firm chief in White House
>
>     Weapons of Mass Destruction
>     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY-kkkBUIIg -- (6m 01s) UK
>     Government "mistakes" on
>     WMDs cost 1.3bn pounds
>
>     -J
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss

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From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Sun May 17 18:37:53 2020
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 13:37:53 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Recommendations for AOTA/NFN timeslots
In-Reply-To: <e2ca2632-1b44-1d1d-8ef9-10cd3ac184a5@gmail.com>
References: <12840cb0-cede-5f9a-5086-90cdf285a294@forestfield.org>
 <CAOiGAyHJ-MDEd22wdfQHc=CbWeFrDTgcpFoNg0f1+Bycy+NDNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e2ca2632-1b44-1d1d-8ef9-10cd3ac184a5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2459C8CC-1D32-4179-9BCB-C296E0CDECFD@newsfromneptune.com>

I think it?s great that WRFU is broadcasting the latest episodes of both on Sat and Sun afternoons!


> On May 17, 2020, at 1:14 PM, Stuart Levy <stuartnlevy at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Speaking of which, WRFU is still broadcasting the latest episodes of both on Sat and Sun afternoons, with a 1-hour slot for each.   I could take those off if you wish, or update them.
> 
> On 5/17/20 12:28 PM, David Green via Peace-discuss wrote:
>> I highly recommend both segments of the Moderate Rebels Israel program, although some may not be as wonky about the Kahanists discussed in the 2nd segment as I am.
>> 
>> DG
>> 
>> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 9:54 AM J.B. Nicholson <jbn at forestfield.org> wrote:
>> Hi Jason,
>> 
>> Here are some more recommendations for AOTA & NFN timeslots.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Moderate Rebels
>> 
>> Russia
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctp5a21Mtvs -- (1h 12m 18s) Historian Peter Kuznick 
>> on how the USA erased the USSR victory over Nazi Germany.
>> 
>> Israel
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJdfGury5Sc -- (1h 22m 13s) "Israel protects fascists 
>> suspected in bombing terror attack on Palestinian American"
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COfIJOt3cmg -- (1h 14m 39s) "Netanyahu's coronavirus 
>> coalition consolidates apartheid: Inside Israel's extremism with David Sheen"
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Intercept
>> 
>> Interpreting the Flynn prosecution and related matters
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB26jj0jrjc -- (1h 45m) Glenn Greenwald holds forth 
>> on a defensible interpretation of "The Sham Prosecution of Michael Flynn" (per its 
>> title) and related matters.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> RT
>> 
>> Venezuelan coup attempt fails again
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zpSM-BCcn0 -- (24m 34s) Watching the Hawks discussion
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPAoVlszisc -- (5m) Guaido allegedly met mercenary 
>> firm chief in White House
>> 
>> Weapons of Mass Destruction
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY-kkkBUIIg -- (6m 01s) UK Government "mistakes" on 
>> WMDs cost 1.3bn pounds
>> 
>> -J
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>> 
>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
> 


From davidgreen50 at gmail.com  Sun May 17 18:58:20 2020
From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 13:58:20 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Recommendations for AOTA/NFN timeslots
In-Reply-To: <2459C8CC-1D32-4179-9BCB-C296E0CDECFD@newsfromneptune.com>
References: <12840cb0-cede-5f9a-5086-90cdf285a294@forestfield.org>
 <CAOiGAyHJ-MDEd22wdfQHc=CbWeFrDTgcpFoNg0f1+Bycy+NDNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e2ca2632-1b44-1d1d-8ef9-10cd3ac184a5@gmail.com>
 <2459C8CC-1D32-4179-9BCB-C296E0CDECFD@newsfromneptune.com>
Message-ID: <CAOiGAyGanKxSO3ndaQPjgDh6PC+jUpuqQm901Nhj9Lj1O7mM_g@mail.gmail.com>

I understood Stuart to be saying that they're still repeating our pre-virus
show or shows. I could be wrong, as hard to believe that might be.

On Sun, May 17, 2020, 1:37 PM C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com>
wrote:

> I think it?s great that WRFU is broadcasting the latest episodes of both
> on Sat and Sun afternoons!
>
>
> > On May 17, 2020, at 1:14 PM, Stuart Levy <stuartnlevy at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Speaking of which, WRFU is still broadcasting the latest episodes of
> both on Sat and Sun afternoons, with a 1-hour slot for each.   I could take
> those off if you wish, or update them.
> >
> > On 5/17/20 12:28 PM, David Green via Peace-discuss wrote:
> >> I highly recommend both segments of the Moderate Rebels Israel program,
> although some may not be as wonky about the Kahanists discussed in the 2nd
> segment as I am.
> >>
> >> DG
> >>
> >> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 9:54 AM J.B. Nicholson <jbn at forestfield.org>
> wrote:
> >> Hi Jason,
> >>
> >> Here are some more recommendations for AOTA & NFN timeslots.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Moderate Rebels
> >>
> >> Russia
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctp5a21Mtvs -- (1h 12m 18s) Historian
> Peter Kuznick
> >> on how the USA erased the USSR victory over Nazi Germany.
> >>
> >> Israel
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJdfGury5Sc -- (1h 22m 13s) "Israel
> protects fascists
> >> suspected in bombing terror attack on Palestinian American"
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COfIJOt3cmg -- (1h 14m 39s)
> "Netanyahu's coronavirus
> >> coalition consolidates apartheid: Inside Israel's extremism with David
> Sheen"
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The Intercept
> >>
> >> Interpreting the Flynn prosecution and related matters
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB26jj0jrjc -- (1h 45m) Glenn
> Greenwald holds forth
> >> on a defensible interpretation of "The Sham Prosecution of Michael
> Flynn" (per its
> >> title) and related matters.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> RT
> >>
> >> Venezuelan coup attempt fails again
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zpSM-BCcn0 -- (24m 34s) Watching the
> Hawks discussion
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPAoVlszisc -- (5m) Guaido allegedly
> met mercenary
> >> firm chief in White House
> >>
> >> Weapons of Mass Destruction
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY-kkkBUIIg -- (6m 01s) UK Government
> "mistakes" on
> >> WMDs cost 1.3bn pounds
> >>
> >> -J
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Peace-discuss mailing list
> >>
> >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
> >
>
>
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From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Sun May 17 19:15:01 2020
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 14:15:01 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Recommendations for AOTA/NFN timeslots
In-Reply-To: <CAOiGAyGanKxSO3ndaQPjgDh6PC+jUpuqQm901Nhj9Lj1O7mM_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <12840cb0-cede-5f9a-5086-90cdf285a294@forestfield.org>
 <CAOiGAyHJ-MDEd22wdfQHc=CbWeFrDTgcpFoNg0f1+Bycy+NDNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e2ca2632-1b44-1d1d-8ef9-10cd3ac184a5@gmail.com>
 <2459C8CC-1D32-4179-9BCB-C296E0CDECFD@newsfromneptune.com>
 <CAOiGAyGanKxSO3ndaQPjgDh6PC+jUpuqQm901Nhj9Lj1O7mM_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <850B032A-1EAB-43B2-B702-6438CC0BAACD@newsfromneptune.com>

Oh, I thought he meant the current shows - mostly Jeff?s recommendations.


> On May 17, 2020, at 1:58 PM, David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I understood Stuart to be saying that they're still repeating our pre-virus show or shows. I could be wrong, as hard to believe that might be.
> 
> On Sun, May 17, 2020, 1:37 PM C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote:
> I think it?s great that WRFU is broadcasting the latest episodes of both on Sat and Sun afternoons!
> 
> 
> > On May 17, 2020, at 1:14 PM, Stuart Levy <stuartnlevy at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Speaking of which, WRFU is still broadcasting the latest episodes of both on Sat and Sun afternoons, with a 1-hour slot for each.   I could take those off if you wish, or update them.
> > 
> > On 5/17/20 12:28 PM, David Green via Peace-discuss wrote:
> >> I highly recommend both segments of the Moderate Rebels Israel program, although some may not be as wonky about the Kahanists discussed in the 2nd segment as I am.
> >> 
> >> DG
> >> 
> >> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 9:54 AM J.B. Nicholson <jbn at forestfield.org> wrote:
> >> Hi Jason,
> >> 
> >> Here are some more recommendations for AOTA & NFN timeslots.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Moderate Rebels
> >> 
> >> Russia
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctp5a21Mtvs -- (1h 12m 18s) Historian Peter Kuznick 
> >> on how the USA erased the USSR victory over Nazi Germany.
> >> 
> >> Israel
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJdfGury5Sc -- (1h 22m 13s) "Israel protects fascists 
> >> suspected in bombing terror attack on Palestinian American"
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COfIJOt3cmg -- (1h 14m 39s) "Netanyahu's coronavirus 
> >> coalition consolidates apartheid: Inside Israel's extremism with David Sheen"
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> The Intercept
> >> 
> >> Interpreting the Flynn prosecution and related matters
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB26jj0jrjc -- (1h 45m) Glenn Greenwald holds forth 
> >> on a defensible interpretation of "The Sham Prosecution of Michael Flynn" (per its 
> >> title) and related matters.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> RT
> >> 
> >> Venezuelan coup attempt fails again
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zpSM-BCcn0 -- (24m 34s) Watching the Hawks discussion
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPAoVlszisc -- (5m) Guaido allegedly met mercenary 
> >> firm chief in White House
> >> 
> >> Weapons of Mass Destruction
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY-kkkBUIIg -- (6m 01s) UK Government "mistakes" on 
> >> WMDs cost 1.3bn pounds
> >> 
> >> -J
> >> 
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Peace-discuss mailing list
> >> 
> >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
> > 
> 


From stuartnlevy at gmail.com  Sun May 17 20:00:04 2020
From: stuartnlevy at gmail.com (Stuart Levy)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 15:00:04 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Recommendations for AOTA/NFN timeslots
In-Reply-To: <850B032A-1EAB-43B2-B702-6438CC0BAACD@newsfromneptune.com>
References: <12840cb0-cede-5f9a-5086-90cdf285a294@forestfield.org>
 <CAOiGAyHJ-MDEd22wdfQHc=CbWeFrDTgcpFoNg0f1+Bycy+NDNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e2ca2632-1b44-1d1d-8ef9-10cd3ac184a5@gmail.com>
 <2459C8CC-1D32-4179-9BCB-C296E0CDECFD@newsfromneptune.com>
 <CAOiGAyGanKxSO3ndaQPjgDh6PC+jUpuqQm901Nhj9Lj1O7mM_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <850B032A-1EAB-43B2-B702-6438CC0BAACD@newsfromneptune.com>
Message-ID: <b9db512b-8c3c-2bd3-e28d-200befd13e83@gmail.com>

No, just the last ones that you'd been able to record.?? So they are
less current now.

On 5/17/20 2:15 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
> Oh, I thought he meant the current shows - mostly Jeff?s recommendations.
>
>
>> On May 17, 2020, at 1:58 PM, David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I understood Stuart to be saying that they're still repeating our pre-virus show or shows. I could be wrong, as hard to believe that might be.
>>
>> On Sun, May 17, 2020, 1:37 PM C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote:
>> I think it?s great that WRFU is broadcasting the latest episodes of both on Sat and Sun afternoons!
>>
>>
>>> On May 17, 2020, at 1:14 PM, Stuart Levy <stuartnlevy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Speaking of which, WRFU is still broadcasting the latest episodes of both on Sat and Sun afternoons, with a 1-hour slot for each.   I could take those off if you wish, or update them.
>>>
>>> On 5/17/20 12:28 PM, David Green via Peace-discuss wrote:
>>>> I highly recommend both segments of the Moderate Rebels Israel program, although some may not be as wonky about the Kahanists discussed in the 2nd segment as I am.
>>>>
>>>> DG
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 9:54 AM J.B. Nicholson <jbn at forestfield.org> wrote:
>>>> Hi Jason,
>>>>
>>>> Here are some more recommendations for AOTA & NFN timeslots.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Moderate Rebels
>>>>
>>>> Russia
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctp5a21Mtvs -- (1h 12m 18s) Historian Peter Kuznick 
>>>> on how the USA erased the USSR victory over Nazi Germany.
>>>>
>>>> Israel
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJdfGury5Sc -- (1h 22m 13s) "Israel protects fascists 
>>>> suspected in bombing terror attack on Palestinian American"
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COfIJOt3cmg -- (1h 14m 39s) "Netanyahu's coronavirus 
>>>> coalition consolidates apartheid: Inside Israel's extremism with David Sheen"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Intercept
>>>>
>>>> Interpreting the Flynn prosecution and related matters
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB26jj0jrjc -- (1h 45m) Glenn Greenwald holds forth 
>>>> on a defensible interpretation of "The Sham Prosecution of Michael Flynn" (per its 
>>>> title) and related matters.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> RT
>>>>
>>>> Venezuelan coup attempt fails again
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zpSM-BCcn0 -- (24m 34s) Watching the Hawks discussion
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPAoVlszisc -- (5m) Guaido allegedly met mercenary 
>>>> firm chief in White House
>>>>
>>>> Weapons of Mass Destruction
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY-kkkBUIIg -- (6m 01s) UK Government "mistakes" on 
>>>> WMDs cost 1.3bn pounds
>>>>
>>>> -J
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>>
>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss

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From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Sun May 17 20:05:38 2020
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 15:05:38 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Recommendations for AOTA/NFN timeslots
In-Reply-To: <b9db512b-8c3c-2bd3-e28d-200befd13e83@gmail.com>
References: <12840cb0-cede-5f9a-5086-90cdf285a294@forestfield.org>
 <CAOiGAyHJ-MDEd22wdfQHc=CbWeFrDTgcpFoNg0f1+Bycy+NDNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e2ca2632-1b44-1d1d-8ef9-10cd3ac184a5@gmail.com>
 <2459C8CC-1D32-4179-9BCB-C296E0CDECFD@newsfromneptune.com>
 <CAOiGAyGanKxSO3ndaQPjgDh6PC+jUpuqQm901Nhj9Lj1O7mM_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <850B032A-1EAB-43B2-B702-6438CC0BAACD@newsfromneptune.com>
 <b9db512b-8c3c-2bd3-e28d-200befd13e83@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2F24369C-5F0E-4643-93E1-7CB6719FE018@newsfromneptune.com>

Ah, that makes sense. 

UPTV has been running YouTube etc. pieces in those slots since the shutdown.
  

> On May 17, 2020, at 3:00 PM, Stuart Levy <stuartnlevy at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> No, just the last ones that you'd been able to record.   So they are less current now.
> 
> On 5/17/20 2:15 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
>> Oh, I thought he meant the current shows - mostly Jeff?s recommendations.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 17, 2020, at 1:58 PM, David Green <davidgreen50 at gmail.com>
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I understood Stuart to be saying that they're still repeating our pre-virus show or shows. I could be wrong, as hard to believe that might be.
>>> 
>>> On Sun, May 17, 2020, 1:37 PM C. G. Estabrook 
>>> <carl at newsfromneptune.com>
>>>  wrote:
>>> I think it?s great that WRFU is broadcasting the latest episodes of both on Sat and Sun afternoons!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On May 17, 2020, at 1:14 PM, Stuart Levy <stuartnlevy at gmail.com>
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Speaking of which, WRFU is still broadcasting the latest episodes of both on Sat and Sun afternoons, with a 1-hour slot for each.   I could take those off if you wish, or update them.
>>>> 
>>>> On 5/17/20 12:28 PM, David Green via Peace-discuss wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I highly recommend both segments of the Moderate Rebels Israel program, although some may not be as wonky about the Kahanists discussed in the 2nd segment as I am.
>>>>> 
>>>>> DG
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 9:54 AM J.B. Nicholson 
>>>>> <jbn at forestfield.org>
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>> Hi Jason,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Here are some more recommendations for AOTA & NFN timeslots.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Moderate Rebels
>>>>> 
>>>>> Russia
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctp5a21Mtvs
>>>>>  -- (1h 12m 18s) Historian Peter Kuznick 
>>>>> on how the USA erased the USSR victory over Nazi Germany.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Israel
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJdfGury5Sc
>>>>>  -- (1h 22m 13s) "Israel protects fascists 
>>>>> suspected in bombing terror attack on Palestinian American
>>>>> "
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COfIJOt3cmg -- (1h 14m 39s) "
>>>>> Netanyahu's coronavirus 
>>>>> coalition consolidates apartheid: Inside Israel's extremism with David Sheen"
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> The Intercept
>>>>> 
>>>>> Interpreting the Flynn prosecution and related matters
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB26jj0jrjc
>>>>>  -- (1h 45m) Glenn Greenwald holds forth 
>>>>> on a defensible interpretation of "The Sham Prosecution of Michael Flynn" (per its 
>>>>> title) and related matters.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> RT
>>>>> 
>>>>> Venezuelan coup attempt fails again
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zpSM-BCcn0
>>>>>  -- (24m 34s) Watching the Hawks discussion
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPAoVlszisc
>>>>>  -- (5m) Guaido allegedly met mercenary 
>>>>> firm chief in White House
>>>>> 
>>>>> Weapons of Mass Destruction
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY-kkkBUIIg
>>>>>  -- (6m 01s) UK Government "mistakes" on 
>>>>> WMDs cost 1.3bn pounds
>>>>> 
>>>>> -J
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
> 


From davidgreen50 at gmail.com  Mon May 18 18:47:04 2020
From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 13:47:04 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Perfect for News from Neptune video
Message-ID: <CAOiGAyHvNUPZVRCHkgbdjF5Gepzw9pRB4gv4iVxkzKLePHHJrA@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuVikkLQ-As

Book Talk: The Hundred Years' War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi and Raja
Shehadeh in conversation
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From brussel at illinois.edu  Mon May 18 22:05:40 2020
From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 22:05:40 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Diane Johnstone memoir interview
Message-ID: <146171DF-EC3B-4E40-A390-717369268C9B@illinois.edu>

As usual, insightful. She?s special. You can also buy the book.

https://consortiumnews.com/2020/05/17/a-circle-in-the-darkness-post-war-europe/?unapproved=400869&moderation-hash=671bd7f32697459e45ac950c69a5600f#comment-400869



From r-szoke at illinois.edu  Wed May 20 19:53:33 2020
From: r-szoke at illinois.edu (Szoke, Ron)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 19:53:33 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Current hotwords:  narcissism, fascism
Message-ID: <CH2PR11MB43449C80C043ACD3635C778D8CB60@CH2PR11MB4344.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Hotwords  052020
Some terms possibly useful in political analysis & polemics

narcissism, fascism

NARCISSISM  (n?r?s?-s?z??m)  n.
1. Excessive preoccupation with or admiration of oneself. See Synonyms at conceit.
2. A personality disorder characterized by an exaggerated sense of self-importance, need for admiration, and lack of empathy. Also called narcissistic personality disorder.
3. Pleasure derived from contemplation or admiration of one's own body or self, considered in psychoanalytic theory to be a fixation on or a regression to an infantile stage of development. [After Narcissus.]  ?  American Heritage? Dictionary
1. (Psychology) an exceptional interest in or admiration for oneself, esp one's physical appearance
2. (Psychology) sexual satisfaction derived from contemplation of one's own physical or mental endowments  [C19: from Narcissus]  ?  Collins English Dictionary
>  n.  1. inordinate fascination with oneself; excessive self-love; vanity.
2. Psychoanal. erotic gratification derived from admiration of one's own physical or mental attributes. [1815?25; < German Narzissismus. See narcissus, -ism]
? Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary
>  an excessive admiration of oneself. 
  Also narcism. ? narcissist, narcist n. ? narcissistic, narcistic, adj.
See also: Self

FASCISM   n.
1. often Fascism
a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.
[Italian fascismo, from fascio, group, from Late Latin fascium, from Latin fascis, bundle.]
> Word History: It is fitting that the name of an authoritarian political movement like Fascism, founded in 1919 by Benito Mussolini, should come from the name of a symbol of authority. The Italian name of the movement, fascismo, is derived from fascio, "bundle, (political) group," but also refers to the movement's emblem, the fasces, a bundle of rods bound around a projecting axe-head that was carried before an ancient Roman magistrate by an attendant as a symbol of authority and power. The name of Mussolini's group of revolutionaries was soon used for similar nationalistic movements in other countries that sought to gain power through violence and ruthlessness, such as National Socialism.
? American Heritage? Dictionary 
?
1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) any ideology or movement inspired by Italian Fascism, such as German National Socialism; any right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with an authoritarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism
2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) any ideology, movement, programme, tendency, etc, that may be characterized as right-wing, chauvinist, authoritarian, etc
3. prejudice in relation to the subject specified: body fascism.
[C20: from Italian fascismo, from fascio political group, from Latin fascis bundle; see fasces]
Fascism (?f???z?m)  n
> (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) the political movement, doctrine, system, or regime of Benito Mussolini in Italy, which encouraged militarism and nationalism, organizing the country along hierarchical authoritarian lines
? Collins English Dictionary 
n.  1. (sometimes cap.) a totalitarian governmental system led by a dictator and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism, militarism, and often racism.
2. (sometimes cap.) the philosophy, principles, or methods of fascism.
3. (cap.) a movement toward or embodying fascism, esp. the one established by Mussolini in Italy 1922?43.
[1915?20; < Italian fascismo, derivative of fasc(io) bundle, group; see fasces]
 ? Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary
  # #  #

From jbn at forestfield.org  Wed May 20 22:38:03 2020
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 17:38:03 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] "The evidence behind putting money directly in the
 pockets of the poor",
 and the UK just made all of their citizens organ donors by default
Message-ID: <8140a3da-4ed6-416a-4769-1d86d200f885@forestfield.org>

https://www.organdonation.nhs.uk/uk-laws/organ-donation-law-in-england --

> Organ donation in England has moved to an 'opt out' system. You may also hear it
> referred to as 'Max and Keira's Law'[1]. This means that all adults in England
> will be considered to have agreed to be an organ donor when they die unless they
> have recorded a decision not to donate or are in one of the excluded groups. [2]

[1] 
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/opt-out-organ-donation-max-and-keira-s-bill-passed-into-law

[2]
> These changes will affect all adults in England unless they have recorded a
> decision not to donate or are in one of the following excluded groups:
> 
> * Those under the age of 18
> * People who lack the mental capacity to understand the new arrangements and take
>   the necessary action
> * Visitors to England, and those not living here voluntarily
> * People who have lived in England for less than 12 months before their death"




http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/science-blog/evidence-behind-putting-money-directly-pockets-poor 
-- "The evidence behind putting money directly in the pockets of the poor"

> 12 May 2020
> 
> By Dr Kate Orkin
> 
> COVID-19 and the related government-led lockdowns have resulted in widespread
> economic shock and job loss, in the UK and around the world. Governments,
> including in low and middle-income countries, have responded with economic
> interventions to cushion the shock. The most widely-used government tool has been
> cash transfer programmes: the World Bank finds 234 measures involving expanding
> cash transfer programmes worldwide, as well as 100 food or voucher schemes.
> 
> In the past, some governments have been concerned that transfers would increase
> dependency on the state and, in particular, that cash transfers would not be used
> well because it is hard to monitor how people spend them. Many governments used
> instead to provide food aid or subsidise basic food items.
> 
> So why have governments shifted to using cash in low and middle-income countries?
> 
> In most situations, there is strong evidence that money, not food, is the most
> efficient and effective way to distribute emergency aid and social programmes.
> This particular question, on how poor people use cash transfers, is one of the
> most studied in development economics.
> 
> The finance ministry in Mexico did one of the first conditional cash schemes in
> 1997. To evaluate the programme, they ran a randomised trial. They could not roll
> out the programme all at once, so they randomly selected some communities to
> receive it first and compared them to those who did not. This is a similar process
> to how drugs are tested, but with a social programme. Since then, many countries'
> governments in low and middle income countries have implemented similar studies.
> 
> Poor people spend cash grants well. The bulk of transfers are spent on food
> anyway. For example, a review of 165 studies by the Overseas Development Institute
> found that recipients of cash grants have better dietary diversity and are less
> likely to face food insecurity. A World Bank review found grants improve growth
> and cognitive development in small children. Cash also has the added benefit of
> giving people autonomy to spend on what they need most. It also stops distortions
> arising in local markets, where bringing in free food can lead to price decreases
> that hurt local producers.
> 
> Emergency, fast cash is a smart investment in long-term poverty alleviation
> 
> Numerous studies, from China and India to Ethiopia and Malawi show that economic
> shocks have severe long-term consequences. Poor households often take short-term
> decisions that leave them in deeper long-term poverty. The decision most feared is
> that households reduce children?s nutritional intake. [...]


-J

From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Thu May 21 11:50:40 2020
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 06:50:40 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: Cuomo's Cruelty
References: <5ec668ebacd1d_29073fea754d94d83028797@ip-10-0-0-212.mail>
Message-ID: <97009849-C175-4CA4-B1EE-4E36D7A84222@newsfromneptune.com>


> 
> C.G.,
> 
> Yesterday NYCC members came together for a day of mourning and action. In 8 locations across NYC and Long Island we held vigils in memory of those we lost to COVID 19. And we raised our voices to fight for those of us who will die if we continue to be left out of the recovery.
> 
> Click here to watch a video from the action. <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/mps2/c/JwE/ni0YAA/t.31y/2Vd9kYyRQVSyAy53TGyjuw/h0/tX6tdXlLuYnKkE2jZWciQb9qDWoGT5RTQvJaTUwnz39vmJ-2Fgc4PdRHH-2BdGdBaAT-2BTxsnZNMvVPxB8LY3BrTrZXQ-2FFtuBJ2zTznoa9X2ccpJKVu75-2BZT-2FFwwhz-2BfqpADcmYMAgRN6Z7lT6T9AUYixdpsS5xWBASkB8a-2Fe3PqB1lex75zwMiQNaPYfL7SNi2CdnzXuEskp-2BgeVf6ZrMH-2B5GdHjQKewdmjGimQ-2BG5DEkOsNjxZrEo-2FL9fUgIaDkYT5P2ZfradbbxZUEQvanPyeT-2BNnuQ-2BrZSemctfNJXWseuMI-3D/yl_0>
>  <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/mps2/c/JwE/ni0YAA/t.31y/2Vd9kYyRQVSyAy53TGyjuw/h1/tX6tdXlLuYnKkE2jZWciQb9qDWoGT5RTQvJaTUwnz39vmJ-2Fgc4PdRHH-2BdGdBaAT-2BTxsnZNMvVPxB8LY3BrTrZUqPTRciOVpW-2BGFBatEe6UitMzSrdq55ghColQmmoI-2BXNCZC4jjm7s5J65WHnjKYoi15LIcr1sAZp-2F2iXwYHCBcLyQE-2BiHhiChX2j-2BzzIFcypYgfLbsa1esCvobkafZcbcuAQf7Wp-2FzgHF7hcHEn8-2FII6Q3hl4-2BF9QSQ37Wi4TQeHexgboVjejnD-2BCWjLWT6g7EEygzmyOqcSmzYy33v5Mo-3D/g-z8>
> We also released a new report: Cuomo?s Cruelty: How New York?s Governor Abandoned Undocumented New Yorkers. Click here to read our report. <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/mps2/c/JwE/ni0YAA/t.31y/2Vd9kYyRQVSyAy53TGyjuw/h2/VZNu3WOm9G89dTcv4T-2FaYltIMrEAWoyj-2FgdrOgepwzR6Xqo7tPsefGOe-2FHZcC0hiwhpgdjSI6tKBEZKHqAvI-2FW244dsrQB1muTlokvQ-2Be2F1pxetvvS7ESJ2BW5i-2FGB9ExyC9oigUCgLL78YXwsr5cLwAB74ugoAFi6eRmbZaG6eBid5Jta5xK5mdMXn9Mch3vutFl5P88-2Bbb8y0YwCtupqkJE6pepKIHtaEv5SQRO0H-2BcpZg0esDm8916odyhmeP-2F2xtRS5cA1HOTyKwjMwzDyyaGAsGY8yJjo7kP6b6jm5iP-2B-2F1kLtHtTJNNvGFU5c/SMr1>
> 
> COVID-19 is disproportionately killing and impacting those living in low-income and immigrant communities. Undocumented immigrants are facing devastating job loss without access to unemployment benefits or federal stimulus. Undocumented workers represent an inordinate share of the workforce in the essential services industry, and are in the frontline of the crisis with virtually no protections. Despite paying $11.74 billion in taxes each year, undocumented workers have been left with virtually no relief
> 
> Please click here and donate to NYCOFI?s COVID-19 relief fund. <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/mps2/c/JwE/ni0YAA/t.31y/2Vd9kYyRQVSyAy53TGyjuw/h3/VZNu3WOm9G89dTcv4T-2FaYukF43-2Bt8cf46NYOS2IcIuqJWF6-2FX3tLIXnksKigdnJTWt28SlLarQPG-2BCSHKa35xY2k2-2BtnSvDakCcVJDcjj6cykfYG54-2BSMGZ-2FUMPHR2Irozf-2BAcEcuMcNmKj9U0UsRfD6y3M-2BmxuY-2BwZp-2BUnKzrH2W4g775e4tExWbMmhq6EhXgGN31KU2Lw15RiczrU6wCAVTLfTiAwX6D3Nvz9rJOKrk42UAWpIA3EfWlw7dvUU/RvBR>
> 
> So far NYCOFI has distributed more than $25,000 in direct relief. 86% of applicants to the fund reported that they were ineligible for unemployment insurance or any government stimulus payments. 94% stated there were no partners or family members in the house with work. 69% have children to provide for, with almost all applicants expressing an inability to pay rent or purchase food. 
> 
> And the crisis worsens every day. 1 in 4 New Yorkers did not pay their rent this month and June 1st is right around the corner. NYCOFI is preparing to make a second round of relief payments shortly, but more funds are needed. Click here to contribute. <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/mps2/c/JwE/ni0YAA/t.31y/2Vd9kYyRQVSyAy53TGyjuw/h4/VZNu3WOm9G89dTcv4T-2FaYukF43-2Bt8cf46NYOS2IcIurzRtmuGUiN7NLFRr7vqzxHUcL2-2BypeFO78-2B16kxteg4F3ClB6r2dZ3hsOmZVTmpZRCEr8WGPVzTtHCsw-2FSZnTv7YkaiwWKoKIEtcnXK-2FwUaoxs54JmnwW9G-2BNm74D-2F4gZZfn11gRMlqOQkBMgDRcwXsTKERB1yeMiLgSlwRAD2o3BBJO2j-2BNVT-2FN3hhFWVJyCz6kIAnsaFqvIbvcLXfKhz/Og2j>
> 
> Our communities need government-scale solutions for renters and undocumented people. We will continue to raise money and to fight until President Trump or Governor Cuomo enacts a recovery for all. 
> Best, 
> 
> Dorisela Hernandez, NYCC
> 
> Sent via ActionNetwork.org <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/mps2/c/JwE/ni0YAA/t.31y/2Vd9kYyRQVSyAy53TGyjuw/h5/qaTHIawuIhDBoP5R1rxJtid1JnAka5QYgiRZZh3fsiY-3D/mJvK>. To update your email address, change your name or address, or to stop receiving emails from New York Communities for Change (NYCC), please click here <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/mps2/c/JwE/ni0YAA/t.31y/2Vd9kYyRQVSyAy53TGyjuw/h6/CA0gLXQEKb6jqGkD7RqZib6U1j4NzzRN1XZbVIcI-2BVF-2FqUvwfCKrduf175BPXymfb9DixVAYN-2BvyU4TVeoCFksyOdUKA9aKOV3NvjrRjTgz1v1Trr-2BIx4IPrRNO-2FnIwje60cFPjkfYYp1jVA5M9fLcCmi4Ugke0J779nipNxzXCmsc5w7QVPf1HCtzrZWAIpyhaNj-2FiUDG4cKCZE-2Be09SRAR7gyOA1FN3f6pUmFP-2FI0M8quDO8MBTeJBk0Xb8rWHa6SsSpbSBZHRxMviSMMsFA-3D-3D/6m7K>.
> 
> 

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From stephenf1113 at yahoo.com  Fri May 22 12:17:24 2020
From: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com (Stephen Francis)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 12:17:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Close to 2million annual page views-NewsFollowup.com
References: <605303861.919231.1590149844769.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <605303861.919231.1590149844769@mail.yahoo.com>

Already have 5000 views today at 7am
The 'Plandemic' has deepened mistrust in (((MSM)))
Alternative media getting a huge boost.
https://newsfollowup.com/

From jbn at forestfield.org  Fri May 22 17:34:23 2020
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 12:34:23 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] "The Rent is Too Damn High" prescience
Message-ID: <b7dc56ae-1a42-2f9c-4c26-89202966f020@forestfield.org>

Remember The Rent is Too Damn High Party in New York? Jimmy McMillan's one-issue 
political party with a catchphrase of, "The Rent is Too Damn High"? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_rent_is_too_damn_high

Remember how people made fun of him for his politicking and his catchphrase 
(including that bastion of lame corporate humor, Saturday Night Live)?

Who is making fun of him now? Notice how none of those jerks are giving him his due 
for being ahead of the curve?

This moment is made for that guy.

-J

From carl at newsfromneptune.com  Sat May 23 17:40:35 2020
From: carl at newsfromneptune.com (C. G. Estabrook)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 12:40:35 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: U.S Military Threat Against Iranian Tankers:
 An Act of International Piracy That Can Escalate into a War
References: <5ec95f662943c_c8f53f7ecc5c6004597220@ip-10-0-0-212.mail>
Message-ID: <F135445F-4F13-4B33-8F5F-E5E8DD79AD4C@newsfromneptune.com>



> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: "U.S. Peace Council via ActionNetwork.org" <USPC at USPeaceCouncil.org>
> Subject: U.S Military Threat Against Iranian Tankers: An Act of International Piracy That Can Escalate into a War
> Date: May 23, 2020 at 12:37:42 PM CDT
> To: cgestabrook at gmail.com
> Reply-To: USPC at USPeaceCouncil.org
> 
> 
> U.S. MILITARY THREAT AGAINST IRANIAN TANKERS: AN ACT OF INTERNATIONAL PIRACY THAT CAN ESCALATE INTO A WAR
> 
> May 23, 2020
> Iran?s daring decision to dispatch five oil tankers carrying the much-needed fuel for the struggling people of Venezuela is a definitive challenge to U.S. government?s illegal policy of unilateral economic sanctions and its naval blockade of Venezuela. Iran?s action has created a decisive test of the Trump administration?s willingness to continue its violations of international law and the UN Charter by taking military action against Iranian tankers.
> 
> The U.S. Peace Council strongly condemns any military actions against the Iranian tankers and calls upon and the Trump administration and the U.S. government to put an end to its violations of the UN Charter immediately.
> 
> As Iranian tankers approach Venezuelan waters ? the first tanker is expected to enter Venezuelan territorial waters on Sunday ? the Trump administration is scrambling to decide how to respond to a challenge that can determine the future of its policy of unilateral coercive measures against one-quarter of humanity. ?We?ve got it [Venezuela] surrounded, it?s surrounded at a level that nobody even knows but they know. We are watching to see what happens,? he commented on the situation on May 20th.
> 
> Indeed, this has created serious dilemma for the U.S. government. A military action against these tankers would be a clear case of international piracy that could lead to military confrontations, not only with the Venezuelan armed forces who are planning to escort these tankers in Venezuelan waters, but also in the Middle East as Iran would be expected to respond to such an act. It would also lead to increasing tensions with Russia. The Russian Foreign Ministry has already warned against any U.S. actions to block the Iranian tankers.
> 
> Allowing Iranian tankers to port, on the other hand, would be the first sign of inability of the United States government to enforce its sanctions policy even near its own shores, and would trigger numerous additional acts of defiance by other sanctioned states. This could mean the beginning of the unraveling of U.S. unilateral sanctions policy, something that would have significant negative repercussions for U.S. imperialism?s policy of ?full spectrum dominance? of the world.
> 
> The outcome of the current challenge posed by Iran and the resistance of Venezuela ? if the U.S government does not act irrationally ? will have determining effects on the future of international relations and world peace. It will pave the way for a new phase of peoples? struggle against illegally-imposed unilateral coercive measures and for restoring peoples? rights to national sovereignty and self-determination throughout the world.
> 
> We call upon all supporters of peace and international law around the world to contact the U.S. White House (+1 202 456-1111) and demand that the U.S. Government respect international law and not interfere with the porting of the Iranian oil tankers.
> 
> Executive Committee 
> of the U.S. Peace Council
> 
> ***
> 
> U.S. Peace Council ? P.O. Box 3105, New Haven, CT 06515 ? (203) 387-0370 ? USPC at USPeaceCouncil.org? <mailto:USPC at USPeaceCouncil.org>
> ? https://uspeacecouncil.org <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/mps2/c/0wA/ni0YAA/t.320/AFSBnaYlSpKx3QaX5dlr9A/h0/XGZPbUM5ZRNcR-2FSxpscZnqXdUPibZZMq4obaD5LcozfcGP2LNax4xdaEMvjYSZxwImFTKkZwV2LIeCs1ov9iSsqG0yOejJ0C7vwQOWExGazeQJMl8-2F4dQZveMDeLai77ZCh0H5hblKHSynT0qrvgg4TsIimZZcpzEzH2DEGeN7lgEq0ZI4Ukje5aUzM09FMMHrPJnzyXTu1M7wLIZ-2FwoYyJfnJeSrs3U-2F-2Fu-2BER-2FI2CZWl-2BG0xouKpPBaE861AYSuMgxX8eXF9w6eJCkKWzk07cGmXqnQ1IeoA-2FiUg-2BGIhpk4bl9e3xuHbR5JVZk3EHtOUMuTGvH7uSwry-2FkHoiiSlmTlkJev4I-2BQSBuS0Co37SiJb-2FRTgGO-2FJ0szaikXZBpshb5z-2B8a18aNlnU88ZnlccQEHU4pZyRxBSjgsgko0U4i-2FeTh97xssOYARTAGuZ8u3/Kkto> ? https://www.facebook.com/USPeaceCouncil/ <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/mps2/c/0wA/ni0YAA/t.320/AFSBnaYlSpKx3QaX5dlr9A/h1/Nejq3qQQ6Jn1R8HM5bnp8F-2BLkZg8qLsdpDpxUqG0ZaK3ISuJnCUDIsNEi1ADHedLVG91CpXJnG-2FxYNKlR4t1c59EABOsQcwhDb88K-2FQjl0P5e6rXOCkEW6URbd8bn-2B5Dyegku5dPMsRPZ0lBYbnw4jHKkZEo8BC7EWxquvfNNJVld1JyPlXwTgh7yH9N-2F5aHORmlNKR51khd1crNrpMnQqlF3RicvtqSypRd2VPU2FsugvlvPvNoSA03bDZwc6MewA9RmG-2BkCnqAetA1tiawkjChR-2FMOKf10dHkRcSSTvCkQiYC4lSf-2FDjBv0YsYyRo9DElxInI3LIIs4B4kNvlQXDqknP05t4GdRDxxvyFLDxyGJ-2BxxonGXhFxQCVd6Q04e1X-2BXfDAKMbtCI3XdM42A0FUT5-2BblS0dySL3eolkUOMX-2FfqwVx-2FlBn6wZq8k4NoTO/w-nK> ? @USPeaceCouncil <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/mps2/c/0wA/ni0YAA/t.320/AFSBnaYlSpKx3QaX5dlr9A/h2/tX6tdXlLuYnKkE2jZWciQd5PIfTN51nRpB5Z-2BYdlHf4NhovOD-2FMav26JRfW6VWhhiczWXhckt8ygZozvN5BY6uYcOatYgEo2uQNA-2FamZZx3Ir9sPGDZojHFbb5LtwOFOKtS2yxLAT0QZswgozEurOr4lBNfzo5GLwF2e-2BZeFqkEb0g2NjQCiY1WSOfbX4optxcys1kuw3uu9MzJMbUtLKBoRkiNiBFZyT0MMxyK1bcm4EYR59t0eCgsgFcnH-2BlvOYBa8DmjHyGSoxbgcSlu3xtCsFmMKEh3gtTNmb1gk-2FaGdRA2ADGYcwJRDjRjvTbqZa5qu-2BDD8EaW81qHI4zyOz1Vk0ULBJZRgZtRw24Dy-2BytduxPYcDIJcqS-2BAFXMOMU-2Bxsu1FOXHpRu7-2FXSakvgus50ZAe-2FmD-2BTlchaXADqEt1XLA0YZdfFG5fRMjGorIq7S/kEK8>
>  <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/mps2/c/0wA/ni0YAA/t.320/AFSBnaYlSpKx3QaX5dlr9A/h3/CA0gLXQEKb6jqGkD7RqZiSVQT3a4rc72JqxXIEz06-2Bw-3D/2Row>	
> Sent via Action Network, a free online toolset anyone can use to organize. Click here to sign up <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/mps2/c/0wA/ni0YAA/t.320/AFSBnaYlSpKx3QaX5dlr9A/h4/CA0gLXQEKb6jqGkD7RqZiZL-2FtMGn6fgFuAHnlxuzX4FqI5QYgzvFPT4iGNaeE5Xm/ACaw> and get started building an email list and creating online actions today.
> Action Network is an open platform that empowers individuals and groups to organize for progressive causes. We encourage responsible activism, and do not support using the platform to take unlawful or other improper action. We do not control or endorse the conduct of users and make no representations of any kind about them.
> You can unsubscribe or update your email address or change your name and address by changing your subscription preferences here <https://u1584542.ct.sendgrid.net/mps2/c/0wA/ni0YAA/t.320/AFSBnaYlSpKx3QaX5dlr9A/h5/CA0gLXQEKb6jqGkD7RqZib6U1j4NzzRN1XZbVIcI-2BVH36sKP-2Fu4oM8VjBs-2FAM85OZWFDuTzIiH66lWqzrRtvdqX4qPGSlBCmpemP6pNZukLXcd7LKgJrmVW6Q98NNX2tQlytm-2B-2FgyGscrph2TPiNO0EU5ux-2Bdjq6uwlYt0s8AnaOsO2Rm6QssdAz1TV7rRnD0KOT3Iq5PdFMNSkCdrU6djzEVRB5cmjfGZ4zDjixMZGvUdCH4MjRZAytR4sLOgfqGtxPlgODhBUZXhr38G8U0Q-3D-3D/EFvW>.
> 
> 

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From jbn at forestfield.org  Mon May 25 01:17:11 2020
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 20:17:11 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Some news and opinions
Message-ID: <076ead73-889d-0af4-843c-4e1e61e952fc@forestfield.org>

COVID-19: We know less about the virus than we need to know to justify lifting lockdown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqOAhxfokao -- (2m 43s) "Recovery isn't immunity -- 
You might get COVID-19 a second time (study)". Results are not known now, but the 
best available evidence says that those who were once infected could be re-infected 
(which means more suffering). It's not clear if this is due to bad testing, a 
mutating virus, or something else that causes apparently inadequate antibodies to 
develop.

Meanwhile, in New York (frequently called "the epicenter" of COVID-19 infections):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxpOgQjEGxQ -- (6m) establishment media trots out the 
reliable obeisant comics (Stephen Colbert, Ellen DeGeneres, and Jimmy Fallon are 
shown) to help manufacture an unearned celebratory narrative for Gov. Cuomo in what 
these celebrities are (supposedly spontaneously) calling 'going "Cuomosexual"' 
despite his record to date.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjS-43QhSNs (2m 43s)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9hDzWymbMQ -- (2m 38s) in New York City it looks 
like NYPD is also opportunistically using a lack of 'social distancing' to arrest and 
beat disproportionately minorities -- "Minorities make up 90% of NYC COVID-19 
violations".

And loosening restrictions on crowds is proceeding nonetheless:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eN0YrgICi8 -- (1m 38s) Daytona Beach, Florida
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3AYP3lqj2s -- (2m 22s) Israel


Strikes abound!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW3RHrQ-pXI -- (8m 22s) Workers are organizing their 
own strikes and there's apparently a media blackout on coverage. You're far more 
likely to hear of an anti-lockdown protest than strike actions across the country. Is 
this because of who stands to benefit from re-opening businesses?



International news:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIatjya5tH8 -- US will place Cuba back on the 
so-called "terrorist" list. Sadly, this is only one segment of an otherwise not very 
recommendable episode and this program doesn't split out their topics into separate 
videos, so it is difficult to recommend only the discussion around Cuba for 
discussion or review. I don't even agree with the entire Cuba segment -- I don't 
think this is Trump's desire to somehow undo everything Obama did. Trump increases 
belligerency in Obama's wars, for example. But I think it's good to know that there 
is movement to return Cuba to increased US-backed restrictions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO1ZHk2jHYU -- Trump administration labels weapons 
manufacturers "essential workers" so they can get back to work manufacturing and 
selling weapons to other countries.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6BtqpXnYeU -- (8m 53s) Relatedly, there's a weapons 
sales boom despite the COVID-19 pandemic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XuUUte0Oms -- (3m 33s) US opposes Hong Kong laws, 
China increases their military spending.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkMiTWXzZ6Y -- (10m 03s) US denies latest failed 
Venezuelan coup attempt (even though best available evidence clearly shows US backing 
including https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPAoVlszisc which suggests self-declared 
Venezuelan "president" Juan Guaido met mercenary firm chief in the White House) and 
points the finger of blame at Russia -- Russiagate lives!



Recommended videos for AWARE on the Air & News from Neptune timeslots:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnoFP4t61h4 -- (27m 55s) "On Contact" with Chris 
Hedges -- Ecosocialism interview with Victor Wallis. This includes good discussion on 
class consciousness and how identity politics doesn't address class and doesn't 
address what Wallis called "the basic outlook" of decision-making (neocon, neolib 
decision-making continues under selected women just as it did under selected men). 
This is very much against feminism too which is now defined as seeing a woman CEO of 
a powerful company (I'm reminded that most American weapons manufacturers are now led 
by women).
https://www.rt.com/shows/on-contact/489504-ecosocialism-victor-wallis-activist/ -- 
transcript should show up here soon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIp0jqeylpk -- (24m 48s) "On Contact" with Chris 
Hedges -- the lessons of the Paris Uprising of May 1968 with Mitch Abidor
https://www.rt.com/shows/on-contact/488804-student-uprising-paris-may-1968/ -- transcript

-J

From brussel at illinois.edu  Mon May 25 20:22:40 2020
From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 20:22:40 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Chomsky in April
Message-ID: <E03FC56D-D45D-4056-8301-391690FB2C9B@illinois.edu>

Always astonishing in his grasp, still,  of events the world is undergoing.  I find Amy Goodman somewhat irritating. overplaying her role,  but the interview is well worth absorbing:

https://www.democracynow.org/2020/5/25/noam_chomsky_on_trump_s_disastrous?utm_source=Democracy+Now%21&utm_campaign=92207ea1fd-Daily_Digest_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_fa2346a853-92207ea1fd-190569021<https://www.democracynow.org/2020/5/25/noam_chomsky_on_trump_s_disastrous?utm_source=Democracy+Now!&utm_campaign=92207ea1fd-Daily_Digest_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_fa2346a853-92207ea1fd-190569021>


Chomsky enlarges on hs defense of having Biden as President.

-mkb

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From brussel at illinois.edu  Wed May 27 00:39:06 2020
From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 00:39:06 +0000
Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Two_complementary=2C_grim=28=3F=29_art?=
 =?utf-8?b?aWNsZXPigKY=?=
Message-ID: <A93CBE35-8399-441F-BAAD-08A71ABAD0A7@illinois.edu>

One is an intervew with Robert Pollin, who speaks with some authority and clarity, where it is possible, about our economics:

https://theanalysis.news/interviews/pollin-nationalize-fossil-fuels-and-create-public-banks/

The other is a Tomgram report by Karen Greenberg, with many details of how the economy is striking so many people here:

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/176702/tomgram%3A_karen_greenberg%2C_so_long_to_american_exceptionalism/<http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/176702/tomgram:_karen_greenberg,_so_long_to_american_exceptionalism/>


?mkb

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From davidgreen50 at gmail.com  Wed May 27 17:13:27 2020
From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 12:13:27 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] =?utf-8?q?First_as_Tragedy=2C_Then_as_Farce=3A_T?=
	=?utf-8?q?he_Collapse_of_the_Sanders_Campaign_and_the_=E2=80=9CFus?=
	=?utf-8?q?ionist=E2=80=9D_Left_-_American_Affairs_Journal?=
Message-ID: <CAOiGAyF3VFdtw15AwC3OeR97LHWKkdPD1f7b0FOZpP=V2aW=UA@mail.gmail.com>

https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2020/05/first-as-tragedy-then-as-farce/

An indispensable analysis
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From jbn at forestfield.org  Thu May 28 03:48:40 2020
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 22:48:40 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] insidernj.com claims that Chris Hedges runs for
 Congress with the Green Party representing New Jersey
Message-ID: <bcc4bc79-6bc6-36df-6761-a30cab2c5588@forestfield.org>

https://www.insidernj.com/author-chris-hedges-announces-cd12-run-green-party-candidate/ 
-- The article claims that Chris Hedges will run for Congress with the Green Party 
representing New Jersey.

But https://www.gpnj.org/gpnjwp/candidates-2/ the New Jersey doesn't list him as a 
candidate (as I write this) and, in typical amateur form, doesn't have headlines on 
their front page. The insidernj.com page refers to a "release" which it does not link to.

Chris Hedges doesn't have any posting about it on his Twitter page -- 
https://twitter.com/chrislynnhedges -- the most recent post there is dated 2020-05-23 
on his KPFA interview about the collapse of American capitalism.

Jimmy Dore also covered this on his show tonight, so I expect that there will be an 
archived copy of his video coming out soon.

-J

From jbn at forestfield.org  Thu May 28 22:26:19 2020
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 17:26:19 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Chris Hedges is not running to become NJ's newest
 Congressman
In-Reply-To: <bcc4bc79-6bc6-36df-6761-a30cab2c5588@forestfield.org>
References: <bcc4bc79-6bc6-36df-6761-a30cab2c5588@forestfield.org>
Message-ID: <456b4e93-65ea-86f9-e853-a783b6905a41@forestfield.org>

I wrote:
> Chris Hedges doesn't have any posting about it on his Twitter page -- 
> https://twitter.com/chrislynnhedges -- the most recent post there is dated 2020-05-23 
> on his KPFA interview about the collapse of American capitalism.

Update:

 From https://twitter.com/ChrisLynnHedges/status/1266074146984902661
> I was informed today according to FCC rules I can't run for federal office & and
> have a national TV show. Therefore, I won't run for the seat in the 12th District
> of NJ. I entered the race to bring up issues I care about, but this is not worth
> losing an important media platform.
This might help explain why Jesse Ventura isn't running for POTUS either (he was 
rumored to be a Green Party candidate). How is such a restriction (one "can't 
[simultaneously] run for federal office & and have a national TV show") constitutional?

> Jimmy Dore also covered this on his show tonight, so I expect that there will be an 
> archived copy of his video coming out soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG99yoK47YU is that video.

-J

From jbn at forestfield.org  Sun May 31 00:04:12 2020
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 19:04:12 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] COVID-19 and Minneapolis news -- anger is rising
 against the elites
Message-ID: <e0b3a085-470a-d118-5c7d-21820b84fd95@forestfield.org>

Jimmy Dore show just ended an interview with Chris Hedges that was very informative 
including clearly showing the cops being criminals (and if any cops didn't go along 
with the program to beat the public into submission and kill the public, they'd be 
run out of the police or killed ala Serpico). One incident in San Jose (Silicon 
Valley where wealthy people live) was someone recording the cops with a phone and was 
shot at and beaten by cops in response. I'm sure this show will turn into multiple 
segments and possibly one longer segment of the entire conversation which should be 
recommended for running during the NFN/AOTA timeslot. ABC7 news (Disney) framed this 
as a "fight breaking out" instead of cops shot and beat someone, again. Apparently 
you're not going to get very good coverage about this on a class basis from FOX, CNN, 
and other establishment-friendly news outlets, judging by their tone-deaf coverage 
(which is precisely the coverage they are there to provide). As Dore clearly points 
out, "they're trained to beat the fuck out of you" and "this is why we need to get 
rid of all the police departments and start over".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqcCidUKL88 is live and running now.

Relatedly, as Dore pointed out, LA just added a curfew -- one day after opening up -- 
for downtown areas, one day after shooting rubber bullets into peaceful protesters again.



COVID-19

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BZtvkF-fZk -- (27m 41s) "On Contact" with Chris 
Hedges on criticizing globalization.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moEc_fO8l7Y -- (3m 05s) COVID-19 cases on the rise in 
several states.




Minneapolis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iHKY5Q8l8o -- (3m 18s) Minnesotan "thugs" vs. Hong 
Kong "heroes"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP4ozBk4gJo -- (7m 36s) "George Floyd and his alleged 
killer were co-workers"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DAPGLdMiK8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijvtlxeN7UY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGtaI9Idoks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiNs5f11gRk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKrDOP74QyM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8Gp90vdF8g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGyS6oJtudw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWsHFMTxmwQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94sxcMo2Pss -- (various lengths) protests, looting, 
and riots in multiple places (LA, DC, Minneapolis, outside US embassy in Berlin, more)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cOgPt3kRUQ -- footage of a cop walking away after 
smashing windows (an agent provacateur). His ex-wife outed him as a cop. Another 
video of the same footage adds commentary from Joe Rogan explaining this is one way 
in which cops foment a riot. Jimmy Dore pointed out today that some people responded 
to him saying 'that video has been debunked' and he asked by whom? And the answer 
came back: by the police.

-J

From jbn at forestfield.org  Sun May 31 22:06:55 2020
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 17:06:55 -0500
Subject: [Peace-discuss] COVID-19 and Minneapolis news -- anger is
 rising against the elites
In-Reply-To: <e0b3a085-470a-d118-5c7d-21820b84fd95@forestfield.org>
References: <e0b3a085-470a-d118-5c7d-21820b84fd95@forestfield.org>
Message-ID: <98e59510-c327-c195-9e5a-eb701ec237b5@forestfield.org>

I wrote:
> Jimmy Dore show just ended an interview with Chris Hedges that was very informative 
> including clearly showing the cops being criminals (and if any cops didn't go along 
> with the program to beat the public into submission and kill the public, they'd be 
> run out of the police or killed ala Serpico).

This interview is beginning to be available in segments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjSxXpoWoTI -- (19m 28s) The Real Looting of American 
CNN Won't Show You with Chris Hedges. I highly recommend this, Dore & Hedges make 
excellent points throughout.



I pointed to multiple URLs showing how the combination of police brutality, needless 
immiseration due to a privatized healthcare system, no UBI, and no rent/mortgage 
jubilee all make the 99% angry at a system that abuses and kills us.

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DAPGLdMiK8
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijvtlxeN7UY
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGtaI9Idoks
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiNs5f11gRk
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKrDOP74QyM
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8Gp90vdF8g
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGyS6oJtudw
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWsHFMTxmwQ
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94sxcMo2Pss -- (various lengths) protests, looting, 
> and riots in multiple places (LA, DC, Minneapolis, outside US embassy in Berlin, more)

More police reaction and brutality from Jimmy Dore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOvTxt_bi20 -- (6m 50s) "San Jose Cop Brutally 
Attacks Protestor & Rest of Cops Join In"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJLzOW0eRAo -- (6m 02s) "NYPD Intentionally Runs Over 
Protestors In Broad Daylight"

-J