[Peace] Pt. 3: Cambodia; funny talk

[parenti susan rose]

TALKING WITH AN AMERICAN WHO WORKS FOR WORLD BANK, IN CAMBODIA
Cambodia, part 3: a conversation that really happened, in December 2003

On a leisurely boat trip from Phnom Penh to Siem Reap with all the clowns,
Patch, Heidi, and I met an American living in Cambodia who "works for the
World Bank" he told us casually.

Patch:"What?? You work for that piece of shit organization? Are you aware
of what organizations like the World Bank and WTO and IMF are doing to
countries? Look, I'd better not even try to talk to you, I'll get too
angry.

Patch rushes off.

Heidi, eavesdroppingly sewing, and I, stay.

Patch's performance was one that I would have given, had he not gotten
there before me: fury. I know few people reading this will agree with me
here. There's an idea among those of us who oppose the status quo, that
when you meet someone whose views(and work and organizations and values)
you oppose, you should have a strategically friendly conversation with
them in order to educate them etc etc.

Well, fury is OK by me. As ONE of the possible performances. It's not
pleasant to be the object of, but it's pretty unforgetable. People who
have boiled at me, I sure remember. Maybe it won't teach anything, but
who says one has to be a teacher all the time. Maybe being a forgetable
teacher is less desirable than being an unforgetable boiler, these days.

Conversation continues. (This next part could be labled, IT PAYS TO STUDY
AT HOME)

As Patch had already performed fury(or left before it really burst open) I
thought I'd try another performance: discussion.

In a mild voice (really)I took up the discussion with the guy(with Heidi
sewingly eavesdropping). It helped to have Heidi there as a witness.
I wanted to look good to her.

Susan:"The World Bank's structural adjustment programs are good for
transnational owners/investors, lousy for the poor in any country."

World Bank Man:"I disagree. In Cambodia, there's been a huge garment
factory industry here. Isn't it better for the poor people in Cambodia
that they earn $1 a day working in the Garment factories, than have no place to
work at all and have to prostitute themselves just to eat?"

--But you, see, I was READY for that example--I had watched the skit on
Structural Adjustment written by Danielle and Sehvilla; I had studied
the 57 page booklet called Does Globalization Help the Poor?(put out by
the International Forum on Globalization--excellent) I was prepared!

Susan:"The garment industries aren't here to help the poor people, but to
take advantage of their poverty: cheap labor".

WBM: "OF course, I know their motives aren't altruistic. I'm just saying ,
they HELp the economy".

Susan:" But in five years, when standards of living and wages INCREASE in
Cambodia, the factories will move out to the next devastated coutnry and
leave the country worse off".

World Bank Man:"Well, that is true. But the people could save enough
money now to tide them over later".

Susan: "Have you ever been to East Lansing Michigan?--had  those people
saved enough money when Ford moved overseas?"

WBM:"But the GNP has gone up in Cambodia as a result of garment
factories".

I had studied with Michael Brun at SDaS---I KNEW all this crap about
citing rising GNPs  and GDPs as evidence of improving the standard of
living for people in a country. I WAS READY!!!

Susan :"GNP only measures the market value of economic production---it
doesn't describe the effects of clear-cutting of forests, or the over-all
distribution of wealth!!It's no indication of improved standard of living
for all people in the country!!"

At this point, to my amazement, the guy agreed. He changed his
position--instead of defending the World Bank, he joined in the attack.
WHAT?? HUH??

WBM:"Well, I agree with that . I've constantly told my organization (World
Bank, in case anyone forgot) that there's NOT ENOUGH structural
adjustment---yes, structural adjustment, but FROM what, TO what?? Did you
know that Joseph Stiglitz, who was chief economist and vice president of
world bank from 1997 to 2000, had stepped out the organization, with
severe criticisms of it?"

Susan, a little slow as I was beschnoodled at the whole turn of the
conversation: "Well, yes, I HAD read that--"

WBM:"One of the main reasons I joined the World Bank was that as an
environmentalist in my former life---"

Susan, still slow: "What? You were an environmentalist, but---"

WBM: "Yup, I was one of the good guys. Well, I hooked up with the World
Bank because I had discovered that in countries where the GNP went up, the
soil erosion factors also went up--so what good was GNP? I was furious
that no one was making the connection. So I completely agree with your
criticisms of GNP, there."

Pleasant chat ensued. How confusing. He even asked if he could get Patch's
autograph, as Patch had seemed to him(in his words) "pretty pissed off
at me before".

Life, glittering with sweet jagged chards of surprises.