[Peace] Re: ... Cost of Iraq War

Wed Aug 15 21:23:43 CDT 2007

(I'll shift this discussion to the peace-discuss list before someone 
points out that the peace list is for announcements -- however tendentious.)

It's a question of what "affords" means (being Clintonian about it). If 
it means, will the government or the state collapse because of its 
involvement in the war (as perhaps France did from its involvement in 
the American Revolution, or Russia as a result of WWI), then the answer 
is no (barring a major expansion of the war).  And of course the US did 
  afford the Vietnam war, more costly than the present one in both US 
lives and real dollars.

The strains of the present war on US economy and society are clear, 
though, in spite of the USG's unwillingness substantially to mobilize 
the society for the war (e.g., tax cuts instead of increases).

I think you're wrong about moral arguments, and so does the USG. They 
have always thought it necessary to provide moral justifications, 
however specious, to convince the populace of the need for war. 
(Removing an evil dictator, stopping genocide in Kosovo, saving the 
starving Somalians, arresting a narcoterrorist in Panama -- none of 
course the real reason -- just to take some from Bush-Clinton time.)

There are a lot of differences between the US attacks on Vietnam and 
Iraq, but it's worthwhile to recall how the former ended.  I think there 
were three main reasons (in descending order of importance):
	1. the brave resistance of the Vietnamese people;
	2. the revolt of the American military in Vietnam; and
	3. the growth of domestic opposition to the war.

Some of that last was a result of the cost -- in 1968 Wall Street called 
publicly for LBJ to wrap up the war -- but most was a result of moral 
revulsion.  By 1969 about 70% of the public had come to regard the war 
as "fundamentally wrong and immoral," not "a mistake," according to the 
in-depth polls of the Chicago Council on Foreign Relations.

Of course, even so the US can be said to have won the Vietnam War -- by 
destroying the country and preventing the emergence of a socialist 
society independent of the US-dominated world economy -- even if the US 
didn't achieve its maximum war aims.  But moral arguments, in the 
America of 40 years ago, surely influenced events by building a public 
opposition.  They were the only thing that could.  --CGE

John W. wrote:
> At 04:23 PM 8/15/2007, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
> 
>> It's certainly worthwhile to organize opposition to the war, but is 
>> this the best argument to use?  Are people really going to change 
>> their minds about the war because it's costing too much?
>>
>> More importantly, if the war is just, then the US (which can afford 
>> it) should be paying the price to wage it.  But if it's not, then we 
>> shouldn't be paying for at all.
> 
> 
> Actually, the US can't even remotely afford either the actual financial 
> cost of the war or the slightly less tangible costs: an increase in 
> terrorism, reduced credibility in the world, etc.  It just THINKS it can 
> afford it.  And so, apparently, do you.
> 
> Moral arguments alone, it seems to me, have little power to influence 
> events.  Wars are begun and ended for reasons that have very little to 
> do with moral considerations.
> 
> John Wason
> 
> 
> 
>> I don't think the problem is that the US is caught in an "unwinnable 
>> civil war."  It's that we committed a great crime by launching the war 
>> (the same crime for which the German leaders were hanged after WWII) 
>> and that we continue the crime by continuing the war.
>>
>> The solution is not to urge our representatives to vote for a bill 
>> that continues funding the war while "forc[ing the president] to 
>> accept real timelines to bring our troops home quickly," even if such 
>> a thing is possible.  It's to demand that our represetnatives not vote 
>> for any funding for this war or for the larger policy of which it is a 
>> part.  --CGE
>>
>>
>> Robert Naiman wrote:
>>> Just Foreign Policy is co-sponsoring this event together with the 
>>> National Priorities Project.
>>> Please come and spread the word.
>>> ----
>>> Dear MoveOn Member,
>>> Did you know that we've already spent more than $456 BILLION on the 
>>> war so far?1 And that it's cost each American household more than 
>>> $4,100?2 We've learned that when we remind voters of the costs of the 
>>> Iraq war--and all the important priorities that we can't afford 
>>> because of it--they're more likely to push Congress to end the war 
>>> quickly.
>>> So MoveOn members are holding a news conference on Thursday in Urbana 
>>> to release a new report on what the war has cost your area. They 
>>> still need a few more folks to come. Can you make it?
>>> Host: Bob N.--fellow MoveOn member
>>> Where: King School, Fairview at Goodwin, Urbana
>>> When: Thursday, Aug 16 2007, 12:00 PM
>>> Sign up here:
>>> http://political.moveon.org/event/reportrelease/39971 
>>> <http://political.moveon.org/event/reportrelease/39971>
>>> At a news conference like this, it really helps to have a crowd of 
>>> 5-10 people--so it's clear in the TV coverage that folks are really 
>>> concerned about the cost of the war. We still need a few more folks 
>>> to come to the event in Urbana (because it's during the day, it's a 
>>> little harder for some people to make it). If you're free, the MoveOn 
>>> members organizing this event could really use your help.
>>> At the events, MoveOn members will hold a press conference for 
>>> reporters where we'll release the report, hear from speakers and take 
>>> questions from the media. Then, we'll deliver the report outlining 
>>> what the war is costing us to our representative's office so that 
>>> Congress gets the message: We want an end to this unwinnable civil 
>>> war in Iraq and we want it now.
>>> In September, General Petraeus is going to issue his report on Iraq. 
>>> Congress will then decide whether they're going to give the president 
>>> another blank check for endless war or whether they'll force him to 
>>> accept real timelines to bring our troops home quickly.
>>> So we're going all out this month to make sure Congress takes a stand 
>>> against this war and votes to bring our troops home in September.
>>>     * First, we'll release these reports to remind Congress and the 
>>> media how outraged we are that we're dumping billions of dollars into 
>>> a religious civil war that just can't be won.
>>>     * Then, throughout the month, we'll work with our coalition 
>>> partners at Americans Against Escalation in Iraq to turn up the heat 
>>> on pro-war members of Congress in their home districts.
>>>     * We'll finish the month off strong right before Congress heads 
>>> back to D.C. On August 28th--National Take a Stand Day--we'll hold 
>>> vigils across the country.
>>> These events are just the first step--and we want to start out with a 
>>> bang. Can you make it on Thursday?
>>> Sign up here:
>>> http://political.moveon.org/event/reportrelease/39971 
>>> <http://political.moveon.org/event/reportrelease/39971>
>>> Thanks for all you do.
>>> --Nita, Matt, Anna, Natalie and the MoveOn.org Political Action Team
>>>   Tuesday, August 14th, 2007
>>> Sources:
>>> 1. Local Costs of Iraq War National Priorities Project, August 2007
>>> http://www.moveon.org/r?r=2878&id=&t=4 
>>> <http://www.moveon.org/r?r=2878&id=&t=4>
>>> 2. Ibid
> 
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