[Peace] flag debate
Matt Murrey
mytwords at yahoo.com
Thu Mar 22 14:33:48 CDT 2007
please move this debate over to the peace discuss list
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Re: misgivings on Iraq War: A Four Year Reflection
(wyatt2 at uiuc.edu)
2. Re: [Peace-discuss] Re: misgivings on Iraq War: A Four Year
Reflection (Chuck Minne)
3. Re: Re: misgivings on Iraq War: A Four Year Reflection
(Wendy Edwards)
4. Re: [Peace-discuss] Re: misgivings on Iraq War: A Four Year
Reflection (Pete Rhomberg)
5. Re: [Peace-discuss] Re: misgivings on Iraq War: A Four Year
Reflection (Chuck Minne)
6. RE: Which Flag will the College Democrats put out for
thesesoldiers? (Ben Galewsky)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 21:21:53 -0500 (CDT)
From:
Subject: Re: [Peace] Re: misgivings on Iraq War: A Four Year
Reflection
To: Mark Morenz , naiman.uiuc at gmail.com,
msmith46 at uiuc.edu
Cc: akaplan3 at law.uiuc.edu, codybralts at gmail.com, pmcguir3 at uiuc.edu,
Kevin Hartman , enslin.mark at gmail.com, carol
inskeep , coalition at iresist.org,
lale at uiuc.edu, Peace Discuss
,
esbenshd at uni.uiuc.edu, mmarti46 at uiuc.edu, azimmer2 at uiuc.edu,
ayalat at uiuc.edu, Tom Abram , can.uiuc at gmail.com,
prhombe2 at uiuc.edu, wpituc2 at uiuc.edu, ccalvey2 at uiuc.edu,
jtmiller at ad.uiuc.edu, nich.shoom at gmail.com, mukta_tripathy at yahoo.com,
rhomberger3000 at gmail.com, miebach2 at uiuc.edu, cajindos at uiuc.edu,
clairewang002 at gmail.com, eesch at uiuc.edu, Peace List
, cge at shout.net, Christopher Dressel
, Eric Uskali
Message-ID: <20070321212153.AMK93559 at expms5.cites.uiuc.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I disagree, Mr. Morenz. I feel that the American flag (at this point in time) is too far gone to be taken back. This isn't just a recent developement either as Mr. Smith pointed out. So, it's not a matter of taking back the symbol since the symbol hasn't stood for those principles in a very long time.
I think using the American flag (and only the American flag) to represent American deaths would be trying to honoring their deaths. We should honor the people who died, of course, but we should not pretend that how they died was honorable and that they were defending America in the process. To say that is a disgrace to the men and women in the military; to say that their death was neccessary to keep us safe is a disgrace to their name because it is a lie.
Also, why is the American flag the only symbol that can be patriotic? I consider patriotism to be belief in humanity, democracy, and freedom. Why do we need a symbol to rally behind in the first place? Aren't these beliefs enough to bring us together for a common good?
The fact is (as this email discussion has shown), that the flag means different things to different people. Therefore, who is right is irrelevant and we must look at the overall message we want to send. If American flags are going to give mixed messages to people who support the anti-war movement, then I think we need to reconsider using flags and focus on sending a CLEAR message using a different symbol. That message being, we are against the occupation in Iraq (and as a member of Campus Anti-war Network we should be against ALL wars and occupations).
Steven Wyatt
International Socialist Organization Treasurer
Campus Anti-war Network Treasurer
---- Original message ----
>Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:50:46 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Mark Morenz
>Subject: Re: [Peace] Re: misgivings on Iraq War: A Four Year Reflection
>To: naiman.uiuc at gmail.com, "msmith46 at uiuc.edu"
>Cc: akaplan3 at law.uiuc.edu, codybralts at gmail.com, pmcguir3 at uiuc.edu, Kevin Hartman , enslin.mark at gmail.com, carol inskeep , coalition at iresist.org, lale at uiuc.edu, Peace Discuss
, esbenshd at uni.uiuc.edu, mmarti46 at uiuc.edu, azimmer2 at uiuc.edu, Peace List
, Tom Abram , can.uiuc at gmail.com, prhombe2 at uiuc.edu, wpituc2 at uiuc.edu, wyatt2 at uiuc.edu, ccalvey2 at uiuc.edu, jtmiller at ad.uiuc.edu, nich.shoom at gmail.com, mukta_tripathy at yahoo.com, rhomberger3000 at gmail.com, miebach2 at uiuc.edu, cajindos at uiuc.edu, clairewang002 at gmail.com, eesch at uiuc.edu, ayalat at uiuc.edu, cge at shout.net, Christopher Dressel , Eric Uskali
>
>I agree with Mr. Naiman and I feel that Mr. Smith was
>factually incorrect when he said:
>"...the U.S. flag can't be symbol [sic] of justice and
>freedom when it was used to justify the genocidal
>conquest of Native Americans, the seizure of half of
>Mexico and the slavery and racism suffered by African
>Americans."
>
>The flag as a symbol is merely a vessel. If we concede
>that we can't use it for our own symbolic purposes we
>are ceding it to those who (in my opinion) are less
>worthy-- to those who hypocritically speak about
>freedom while they enslave others and to those who
>commit crimes in the name of justice. We should not
>give up the high ground. We are no less deserving of
>using the flag. We are no less patriotic. We are no
>less religious...we should stop allowing the
>right-wing to monopolize these idioms-- in my opinion.
>
>:-{)]
>
>Mark A. Morenz
>
>
>--- Robert Naiman wrote:
>
>> I was very disturbed to receive this email.
>>
>
>Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).
>--Mark Twain
>
>There is no such thing as security for any nation-- or any individual-- in a world ruled by the principles of gangsterism.
>--Franklin Delano Roosevelt
>
>Meetings are by definition a concession to deficient organization [sic] For one either meets or one works.
>--Peter Drucker
>
>Nothing you do for children is ever wasted.
>--Garrison Keillor
>
>News is what powerful people keep hidden-- everything else is just publicity.
>--Bill Moyers
>
>This isn't all true.
>--Steven Wright
>
>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:30:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chuck Minne
Subject: [Peace] Re: [Peace-discuss] Re: misgivings on Iraq War: A
Four Year Reflection
To: Pete Rhomberg , msmith46 at uiuc.edu
Cc: akaplan3 at law.uiuc.edu, codybralts at gmail.com, pmcguir3 at uiuc.edu,
Kevin Hartman , enslin.mark at gmail.com,
clairewang002 at gmail.com, coalition at iresist.org, lale at uiuc.edu, Peace
Discuss
, esbenshd at uni.uiuc.edu,
mmarti46 at uiuc.edu, azimmer2 at uiuc.edu, Peace List
, Tom Abram ,
can.uiuc at gmail.com, prhombe2 at uiuc.edu, wpituc2 at uiuc.edu,
wyatt2 at uiuc.edu, ccalvey2 at uiuc.edu, jtmiller at ad.uiuc.edu,
nich.shoom at gmail.com, mukta_tripathy at yahoo.com, miebach2 at uiuc.edu,
cajindos at uiuc.edu, eesch at uiuc.edu, Thomas Ayala ,
cge at shout.net, Christopher Dressel , Eric Uskali
Message-ID: <907631.32165.qm at web36906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
This seems like a nice idea to me. What is the death ratio? Something like 100,000 to 3,000 or 100 to 3? I’m sure that Iraqi flags are hard to come by, especially tiny ones, but I could imagine a display or poster exhibiting 97 Iraqi flags and three US flags along with the explanation that while it would be impossible for a flag to be displayed for each victim of the war, this was the symbolic proportion of all those that should be mourned – or something like that.
Pete Rhomberg wrote: Something that seems to have been forgotten in this debate is one of the
options that Martin proposed, and which I am highly in favor of, namely
representing the Iraqi dead. While procuring over 650,000 Iraqis flags
would be an unreasonable burden on any group or coalition, I feel that
if an alternative to American flags is not decided on, the least we can
do is add Iraqi flags to signify a certain number of Iraqi deaths.
While the loss of American servicemen and women is tragic, the loss of
any life is also tragic, and we cannot forget the tragic death of over
650,000 Iraqis.
-Pete Rhomberg
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:37:02 -0500
From: Wendy Edwards
Subject: Re: [Peace] Re: misgivings on Iraq War: A Four Year
Reflection
To: Pete Rhomberg
Cc: akaplan3 at law.uiuc.edu, codybralts at gmail.com, pmcguir3 at uiuc.edu,
Kevin Hartman , enslin.mark at gmail.com, carol
inskeep , coalition at iresist.org,
lale at uiuc.edu, Peace Discuss
,
esbenshd at uni.uiuc.edu, mmarti46 at uiuc.edu, azimmer2 at uiuc.edu, Peace
List
, Tom Abram ,
can.uiuc at gmail.com, msmith46 at uiuc.edu, prhombe2 at uiuc.edu,
wpituc2 at uiuc.edu, wyatt2 at uiuc.edu, ccalvey2 at uiuc.edu,
jtmiller at ad.uiuc.edu, nich.shoom at gmail.com, mukta_tripathy at yahoo.com,
miebach2 at uiuc.edu, cajindos at uiuc.edu, clairewang002 at gmail.com,
eesch at uiuc.edu, Thomas Ayala , cge at shout.net,
Christopher Dressel , Eric Uskali
Message-ID: <20070322033702.GA66354 at shrug.acm.uiuc.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
What about a map poster? Is there a place we can get information
about people who died, like where they were from or where they died?
Wendy
On Wed, Mar 21, 2007 at 05:58:19PM -0500, Pete Rhomberg wrote:
> Something that seems to have been forgotten in this debate is one of the
> options that Martin proposed, and which I am highly in favor of, namely
> representing the Iraqi dead. While procuring over 650,000 Iraqis flags
> would be an unreasonable burden on any group or coalition, I feel that
> if an alternative to American flags is not decided on, the least we can
> do is add Iraqi flags to signify a certain number of Iraqi deaths.
> While the loss of American servicemen and women is tragic, the loss of
> any life is also tragic, and we cannot forget the tragic death of over
> 650,000 Iraqis.
> -Pete Rhomberg
>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace mailing list
> Peace at lists.chambana.net
> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 01:26:47 -0500
From: Pete Rhomberg
Subject: [Peace] Re: [Peace-discuss] Re: misgivings on Iraq War: A
Four Year Reflection
To: Chuck Minne
Cc: akaplan3 at law.uiuc.edu, codybralts at gmail.com, pmcguir3 at uiuc.edu,
Kevin Hartman , enslin.mark at gmail.com,
clairewang002 at gmail.com, coalition at iresist.org, lale at uiuc.edu, Peace
Discuss
, esbenshd at uni.uiuc.edu,
mmarti46 at uiuc.edu, azimmer2 at uiuc.edu, Peace List
, Tom Abram ,
can.uiuc at gmail.com, msmith46 at uiuc.edu, prhombe2 at uiuc.edu,
wpituc2 at uiuc.edu, wyatt2 at uiuc.edu, ccalvey2 at uiuc.edu,
jtmiller at ad.uiuc.edu, nich.shoom at gmail.com, mukta_tripathy at yahoo.com,
miebach2 at uiuc.edu, cajindos at uiuc.edu, eesch at uiuc.edu, Thomas Ayala
, cge at shout.net, Christopher Dressel
, Eric Uskali
Message-ID: <460221A7.9040204 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
The ratio is much higher: currently, the Iraqi death tool is estimated
at at least 700,000 (with over 1 million additional Iraqis displaced).
US Death toll is a little over 3,300 (I'm sorry I don't have the exact
figure).
Chuck Minne wrote:
> This seems like a nice idea to me. What is the death ratio? Something
> like 100,000 to 3,000 or 100 to 3? I’m sure that Iraqi flags are hard
> to come by, especially tiny ones, but I could imagine a display or
> poster exhibiting 97 Iraqi flags and three US flags along with the
> explanation that while it would be impossible for a flag to be
> displayed for each victim of the war, this was the symbolic proportion
> of all those that should be mourned – or something like that.
>
>
> */Pete Rhomberg /* wrote:
>
> Something that seems to have been forgotten in this debate is one
> of the
> options that Martin proposed, and which I am highly in favor of,
> namely
> representing the Iraqi dead. While procuring over 650,000 Iraqis
> flags
> would be an unreasonable burden on any group or coalition, I feel
> that
> if an alternative to American flags is not decided on, the least
> we can
> do is add Iraqi flags to signify a certain number of Iraqi deaths.
> While the loss of American servicemen and women is tragic, the
> loss of
> any life is also tragic, and we cannot forget the tragic death of
> over
> 650,000 Iraqis.
> -Pete Rhomberg
>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:06:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chuck Minne
Subject: [Peace] Re: [Peace-discuss] Re: misgivings on Iraq War: A
Four Year Reflection
To: Pete Rhomberg
Cc: akaplan3 at law.uiuc.edu, codybralts at gmail.com, pmcguir3 at uiuc.edu,
Kevin Hartman , enslin.mark at gmail.com,
clairewang002 at gmail.com, coalition at iresist.org, lale at uiuc.edu, Peace
Discuss
, esbenshd at uni.uiuc.edu,
mmarti46 at uiuc.edu, azimmer2 at uiuc.edu, Peace List
, Tom Abram ,
can.uiuc at gmail.com, msmith46 at uiuc.edu, prhombe2 at uiuc.edu,
wpituc2 at uiuc.edu, wyatt2 at uiuc.edu, ccalvey2 at uiuc.edu,
jtmiller at ad.uiuc.edu, nich.shoom at gmail.com, mukta_tripathy at yahoo.com,
miebach2 at uiuc.edu, cajindos at uiuc.edu, eesch at uiuc.edu, Thomas Ayala
, cge at shout.net, Christopher Dressel
, Eric Uskali
Message-ID: <586057.72190.qm at web36906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I have learned that estimated numbers on either side of an issue are not to be trusted, and that the peace folks can inflate them with the best. Now while 700,000 might be a stunning number for preaching to the choir, I don’t think preaching to the choir is the point here. At least I presume the point is proselytization, and for that, IMO 100,000 is a better number (guesstimate.) But candor might not be expected and be considered a sign of weakness, so maybe 2,000,000 is better. Wishy-washy?
(Just from the numbers' standpoint, 700,000 is roughly 400 per day. I don't think that has happened. But, who knows? I sure don't.)
Pete Rhomberg wrote:
The ratio is much higher: currently, the Iraqi death tool is estimated
at at least 700,000 (with over 1 million additional Iraqis displaced).
US Death toll is a little over 3,300 (I'm sorry I don't have the exact
figure).
Chuck Minne wrote:
> This seems like a nice idea to me. What is the death ratio? Something
> like 100,000 to 3,000 or 100 to 3?
---------------------------------
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:28:20 -0500
From: "Ben Galewsky"
Subject: RE: [Peace] Which Flag will the College Democrats put out for
thesesoldiers?
To:
Message-ID: <02e001c76c8e$57338ae0$21eea8c0 at sizzle>
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