From karenaram at hotmail.com  Fri Dec  1 14:05:44 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 14:05:44 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Vultures
Message-ID: <CY1PR08MB1675EA7826EB05CFE457675DA3390@CY1PR08MB1675.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

Vultures are creatures who look for “weakness” “chaos” “discontent," then they attack. 

Soros has been referred to as a “vulture” when he goes after financially weak nations, as he did in Thailand 1997. 

The USG "creates” chaos, weakness and discontent, in nations by way of intervention, then they attack. 

 We have individuals, who, like vultures, like Soros, see weakness, chaos and discontent, within organizations they wish to dismantle, then they attack, 

From davegreen84 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  2 00:01:09 2017
From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 00:01:09 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] I won't be at tomorrow's AWARE
 demonstration ...
In-Reply-To: <CADB8Bye3AJwyO=jrG+CVb2LHQMELk8V_gDh=Z7ekRoC7OE7nWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <35b8a2c1-d8c5-0521-fa3a-0da57a2254da@gmail.com>
 <0F72EEBE-2F21-442A-A6B5-E39BC19D79D6@gmail.com>
 <CADB8Bye3AJwyO=jrG+CVb2LHQMELk8V_gDh=Z7ekRoC7OE7nWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <573445373.108046.1512172869255@mail.yahoo.com>

 If the demo is cancelled, the Peace list should at least know, especially Doug C. But let's wait until Saturday mid-morning to confirm that it is cancelled, and make a clear announcement of such.
I'm willing to pick up the signs, if a few people explicitly commit to being there.
DG

    On Friday, December 1, 2017, 5:35:10 PM CST, James M via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:  
 
 I am available to demonstrate on Saturday (if there are other demonstrators... Doug and any others?), and would be willing to pick up the signs on my way.
On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 5:31 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

Several other of our regulars are unavailable, owing to illness or previous engagement.

I thihk we should cancle the demo. (We could say


> On Dec 1, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana. net> wrote:
>
> I won't be at tomorrow's demonstration.   I'm not sure whether Karen M/E/L will either.
>
> As for the signs, I could put a bag of them on our driveway around 1pm if someone can pick it up from there ... ?
>
> Weather looks to be mild, in the high 50s, and not very windy, a comfortable day to be out on the street.
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________ _________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana. net
> https://lists.chambana.net/ mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss

______________________________ _________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana. net
https://lists.chambana.net/ mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss


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From kmedina67 at gmail.com  Sat Dec  2 00:30:05 2017
From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (kmedina67)
Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 18:30:05 -0600
Subject: [Peace] Tomorrow's AWARE demonstration ...
Message-ID: <5a21f411.1b49240a.63792.6fca@mx.google.com>

Tomorrow's peace demonstration:Unfortunately i can't make it tomorrow,  but...It looks like at least 3 people are interested in participating (Doug, David, James, . )Plus there are always people like Dan and Don who show up for the last hour. 
I think it is worthwhile doing even if only 5 people turn up.
[We definitely need  to work on getting more of the alphabet represented... there are a lot of names starting with D]
David lives the closest, so we will hand the signs off to him, if that is okay with everyone. 
-Karen Medina

null
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From james.manrique at gmail.com  Sat Dec  2 00:43:01 2017
From: james.manrique at gmail.com (James M)
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 18:43:01 -0600
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Tomorrow's AWARE demonstration ...
In-Reply-To: <5a21f411.1b49240a.63792.6fca@mx.google.com>
References: <5a21f411.1b49240a.63792.6fca@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CADB8ByeU27THEWu7CP85ytLKd_ynNCHWf6e80tNY3NZQMZuvuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds good to me. I look forward to it!

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 6:30 PM, kmedina67 via Peace-discuss <
peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

> Tomorrow's peace demonstration:
> Unfortunately i can't make it tomorrow,  but...
> It looks like at least 3 people are interested in participating (Doug,
> David, James, . )
> Plus there are always people like Dan and Don who show up for the last
> hour.
>
> I think it is worthwhile doing even if only 5 people turn up.
>
> [We definitely need  to work on getting more of the alphabet
> represented... there are a lot of names starting with D]
>
> David lives the closest, so we will hand the signs off to him, if that is
> okay with everyone.
>
> -Karen Medina
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>
>
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From davegreen84 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  2 04:03:24 2017
From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 04:03:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Tomorrow's AWARE demonstration ...
In-Reply-To: <5a21f411.1b49240a.63792.6fca@mx.google.com>
References: <5a21f411.1b49240a.63792.6fca@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <657373760.187637.1512187404269@mail.yahoo.com>

 I will pick up the signs on my way to the demo and be there by 2.
DG



    On Friday, December 1, 2017, 6:30:34 PM CST, kmedina67 via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:  
 
 Tomorrow's peace demonstration:Unfortunately i can't make it tomorrow,  but...It looks like at least 3 people are interested in participating (Doug, David, James, . )Plus there are always people like Dan and Don who show up for the last hour. 
I think it is worthwhile doing even if only 5 people turn up.
[We definitely need  to work on getting more of the alphabet represented... there are a lot of names starting with D]
David lives the closest, so we will hand the signs off to him, if that is okay with everyone. 
-Karen Medina
_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
  
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sat Dec  2 13:25:01 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 13:25:01 +0000
Subject: [Peace] US Political crisis intensified by guilty plea of Flynn
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB1677BD58BD25B54CAE5CB043A33E0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

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Guilty plea by Trump’s former national security adviser Flynn intensifies US political crisis
By Bill Van Auken
2 December 2017

The guilty plea Friday by Michael Flynn, President Donald Trump’s former national security advisor, marks a major escalation in the unprecedented political crisis in the United States. The bitter conflicts within the ruling class, centered on issues of foreign policy, are entering a new and explosive stage.

Flynn pleaded guilty to lying about his conversations with Russia’s ambassador to the US, Sergei Kislyak, in the run-up to Trump’s inauguration. However, the real significance lies less in the content of the charges than the implications of the plea deal. It is an unmistakable indication that the retired general has agreed to provide evidence against more important targets, including both Jared Kushner, Trump’s son-in-law and adviser, and the president himself.

There are powerful sections of the ruling class that want to push Trump out, and with Flynn they appear to have obtained plenty of ammunition. At the very least, the investigations into allegations of collusion with Russia, headed by former FBI chief Robert Mueller, are now targeting Trump’s family and inner circle.

In an indication of the nervousness within the financial aristocracy over the implications of political instability in the US, the Dow Jones Industrial Average plunged 350 points following news of the guilty plea, before regaining much of what it lost on anticipation of the Senate’s passage of a tax handout to the rich. The sharp financial fluctuations reflect growing concerns within the ruling oligarchy that the bitter internecine conflict in Washington, and increasing signs of instability in the Trump White House, could spin out of control.

The brief one-felony count charge to which Flynn pleaded was that he made “materially false, fictitious and fraudulent statements” to FBI agents regarding two telephone calls the retired general, then a senior member of Trump’s transition team, held with the Russian ambassador in late December 2016. Flynn has pledged to fully cooperate with Mueller’s investigation, including by testifying in any future criminal cases.

Prosecutors said that Flynn had discussed his communications with the Russian ambassador with a top figure in the Trump transition team, and that he had been directed by “a very senior member” of the team.

ABC News, citing a Flynn confidante, reported that Flynn was prepared to testify that Trump had instructed him to make contact with Russian officials when he was still a presidential candidate.

The plea marks the fall of the first major figure in Trump’s inner circle to the investigation into allegations of Russian meddling in the 2016 election led by the Justice Department’s special prosecutor, Mueller.

The special prosecutor has charged three other individuals. However, two of them, Paul Manafort, a former Trump campaign manager, and his business associate, Robert Gates, were indicted over offenses unrelated to the campaign. The third, George Papadopoulos, a low-level campaign adviser who assumed no position in the Trump administration, was, like Flynn, charged with lying to the FBI about contacts with individuals claiming to have connections with top Russian officials.

Flynn, however, was one of the most senior campaign and foreign policy advisers to Trump. A retired three-star Army general and former director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, he was a man who shared Trump’s virulent anti-Muslim views. He was bitterly hostile to the Democratic Party and the leadership of the military and the intelligence agencies over being forced out as DIA director.

Trump named him his national security adviser, a position Flynn held for just the first 25 days of the administration. He was forced out over allegedly lying to Vice President Mike Pence about a conversation in which Flynn relayed a request to the Russian ambassador for Moscow not to retaliate aggressively to sanctions imposed by the Obama administration.

Trump was well aware of this request, however, and the White House had been informed of the content of the phone calls and Flynn’s lies to the FBI by then acting Attorney General Sally Yates 18 days before Flynn was fired. The calls had been recorded by the FBI, which had bugged the Russian ambassador’s phone.

Even after his firing, Trump repeatedly praised Flynn and, according to FBI Director James Comey, whom he subsequently fired, directly asked for the bureau to drop its investigation of the retired general.

On Friday, however, Trump’s lawyer issued a statement attempting to distance the White House from Flynn, describing him as a “former Obama administration official.”

In a statement read to the court Friday, Flynn lamented having had to “endure these months of false accusations of ‘treason’ and other outrageous acts,” while acknowledging that “the actions I acknowledged in court today were wrong.”

While Flynn may not have committed treason, like many other top members of the Pentagon brass, he cashed in on his military service after being forced into retirement by the Obama administration in 2014. He is accused of acting as a lobbyist for the Turkish government without registering his company, Flynn Intel Group, as an agent of a foreign government. His activities reportedly included discussions of kidnapping of Fethullah Gulen—an Islamist opponent of the Erdogan regime who lives in Pennsylvania—and forcibly returning him to Turkey.

Among the most significant facts disclosed in the special prosecutor’s case against Flynn is that the second call with Kislyak was initiated at the request of a “very senior member” of the transition team—identified by various sources as Jared Kushner—to secure Russia’s cooperation in squelching or postponing a vote on the United Nations Security Council to censure Israel over the expansion of illegal Zionist settlements in the occupied West Bank. The Obama administration had signaled that, for the first time, the US would not veto such a measure. In the end the vote went ahead with the US abstaining.

The US media has largely glossed over this issue, either omitting any mention of the Israeli connection or making no analysis of its significance. That the Trump transition team was intervening on behalf of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, not Putin, cuts across the narrative of Moscow’s supposed meddling in the 2016 election and the anti-Russia propaganda campaign that is bound up with both war preparations abroad and the suppression of free speech and democratic rights at home.

From the evidence presented so far, outside of lying to the FBI and obstruction of justice, any underlying offense would fall under the Logan Act, a law drafted in 1797 that bars private citizens from negotiating with foreign governments or subverting the policies of the US government on their behalf.

No one has ever been prosecuted under this law, despite the interventions by then-Republican candidates Richard Nixon to scuttle Vietnam peace negotiations in 1968, and Ronald Reagan to delay the release of US embassy hostages in Iran, in order to influence elections. And any prosecution of the Trump administration would be problematic given the connection to Israel, whose interests are regularly promoted by politicians of both major parties.

Whether Flynn’s plea deal is the opening gambit in a move to oust Trump from the White House remains to be seen. It has taken place in the context of Trump’s re-tweeting of British fascist anti-Muslim filth, threats to obliterate nuclear-armed North Korea, and increasing media commentary questioning the US president’s sanity. Significant factions of the ruling class see Trump’s presidency as a disaster for US imperialist interests abroad and for the stability of the United States at home.

Underlying the escalating crisis are intense social, economic and geopolitical tensions bound up with the erosion of both the global dominance and national stability of American capitalism. Within the capitalist ruling class, opposition to Trump is driven largely by hostility to any weakening of the anti-Russia policy developed under Obama.

Removal of Trump from office on these grounds will only create the conditions for a government even more firmly under the control of the US military and intelligence apparatus.
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From davegreen84 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  2 16:17:54 2017
From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:17:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Demonstration today
In-Reply-To: <160177f2207-194b-e8f@webjas-vad053.srv.aolmail.net>
References: <160177f2207-194b-e8f@webjas-vad053.srv.aolmail.net>
Message-ID: <1864087484.347821.1512231474385@mail.yahoo.com>

I will be there with the signs at 2.
DG
 

    On Saturday, December 2, 2017, 7:51:57 AM CST, Mildred O'brien via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:  
 
 I was planning to attend this afternoon, unless it is cancelled by everyone.
Midge O'Brien

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From kmedina67 at gmail.com  Sat Dec  2 16:51:42 2017
From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (kmedina67)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2017 10:51:42 -0600
Subject: [Peace] Peace demonstration today, 2pm to 4pm
Message-ID: <5a22da21.18686b0a.48017.93b1@mx.google.com>

Dear peace, 
There is a peace demonstration today, Saturday 2 December 2017 from 2pm to 4pm. In downtown Champaign, Illinois on the corners of Neil Street and Main Street* It is beautiful weather. * This is the last monthly demonstration of the year. * Voting is obviously not enough. Sitting at home or even doing yard work at home will not bring peace. The United States continues to use violence, conducting wars in 8 countries. Education of our fellow citizens is vital. Come, stand up for peace. * I can guarantee that you won't agree with everyone, but you might have some thought provoking conversations if you are courageous. 
-Karen Medina
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From susanroseparenti at gmail.com  Mon Dec  4 21:01:42 2017
From: susanroseparenti at gmail.com (Susan Parenti)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 15:01:42 -0600
Subject: [Peace] See New Play on Immigration w/ Faranak Miraftab
 present--this Thursday at IMC!
Message-ID: <CAKfUjSEAMf3HFGz0N7ddoFmDo3ZxDhF2BqP38CddXWuE3SoFdA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi friends--
Mark Enslin and I have composed a play on global immigration, based on the
book
Global Heartlands written by local activist-teacher, Faranak Miraftab.

This Thursday at 7:30pm, at the IMC, we're doing a performance of that
play, with a discussion afterwards, with Faranak present.

We're intending to tour Illinois with this play for the next 12 months--and
have already performed it in Rantoul and Bloomington/Normal in the past
weeks.

We'd love it if you could attend, put in your 2 cents in the discussion.
The play is around 45 minutes long, with a half hour discussion.

Looking forward to seeing you there!

-- 
*Susan Parenti*
*Educational Coordinator *

*The School for Designing a Society *www.designingasociety.net

*Like us on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/designasociety>!*
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From cgestabrook at gmail.com  Wed Dec  6 02:52:35 2017
From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 20:52:35 -0600
Subject: [Peace] Fwd: Join me & Ajamu live Wednesday!
References: <5a275a6b9937f_17d9212fb984274d8@asgworker-qmb2-15.nbuild.prd.useast1.3dna.io.mail>
Message-ID: <1AB52719-1D75-4DA9-9630-1B13F1FCDF81@gmail.com>


> 
> 
>  <https://www.jill2016.com/r?u=http%3A%2F%2Fjill2016.com&e=f2b89e282b42e25174179f5d1459bf0f&utm_source=jillstein&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ajamu_boston&n=1>
> Dear Carl G.,
> 
> Thank you for all you’re doing in these days of unprecedented crisis and unstoppable resistance, as we continue building the movement for people, planet and peace over profit! As the empire teeters at the brink and the neoliberal order melts down, resistance is sweeping the planet and grassroots heroes are leading the charge for an America and a world that works for all of us.
> 
> One of my favorite rebels, Ajamu Baraka, will be joining me for a special live Fireside Chat to talk about the struggle for peace abroad and justice at home. Martin Luther King's triple evils of militarism, racism and extreme materialism live on in military and economic domination abroad, and the struggle for jobs, education, housing, healthcare and security from police brutality at home. In the face of this adversity, front line communities are standing up like we haven't seen in generations - from Black Lives Matter, to Standing Rock, to Dreamers, student debt resisters, fossil fuel and nuclear abolitionists and more.
> 
> The silver lining in this crisis? We may be closer than you think to critical mass for peaceful, transformative change.
> 
> Join the conversation with Ajamu and me live on Facebook <https://www.jill2016.com/r?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fdrjillstein%2F&e=f2b89e282b42e25174179f5d1459bf0f&utm_source=jillstein&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ajamu_boston&n=2> this Wednesday at 9 PM Eastern time!
> 
> Our Fireside Chat on Facebook will follow Ajamu's talk at the Egleston Square/Boston Public Library “From North Korea to Roxbury: Confronting War, Struggling for Peace”. If you are in the area please join us for a discussion of critical world issues with a leading champion for peace and human rights. See event details here <https://www.jill2016.com/r?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fevents%2F190998144796651&e=f2b89e282b42e25174179f5d1459bf0f&utm_source=jillstein&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ajamu_boston&n=3>.
> 
> Whether you can meet us in Boston or join the conversation online from your own home, meet up with Ajamu and me live on the Green News Network on Facebook <https://www.jill2016.com/r?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fdrjillstein%2F&e=f2b89e282b42e25174179f5d1459bf0f&utm_source=jillstein&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ajamu_boston&n=4> this Wednesday at 9 PM Eastern time!
> 
> With your help, we’ll keep building the power till people, planet and peace prevail, in an America - and a world - that works for all of us.
> 
> It’s in our hands!
> Jill Stein
> 
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  <https://www.jill2016.com/r?u=http%3A%2F%2Fjill2016.com&e=f2b89e282b42e25174179f5d1459bf0f&utm_source=jillstein&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ajamu_boston&n=5>
> 
>  <https://www.jill2016.com/r?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fdrjillstein&e=f2b89e282b42e25174179f5d1459bf0f&utm_source=jillstein&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ajamu_boston&n=6>     <https://www.jill2016.com/r?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fdrjillstein&e=f2b89e282b42e25174179f5d1459bf0f&utm_source=jillstein&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ajamu_boston&n=7>     <https://www.jill2016.com/r?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fjill2016&e=f2b89e282b42e25174179f5d1459bf0f&utm_source=jillstein&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ajamu_boston&n=8>    <https://www.jill2016.com/r?u=http%3A%2F%2Finstagram.com%2Fdrjillstein&e=f2b89e282b42e25174179f5d1459bf0f&utm_source=jillstein&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ajamu_boston&n=9> 
> This email was sent to galliher at illinois.edu <x-msg://21/galliher at illinois.edu>. 
> Click here to Unsubscribe <http://www.jill2016.com/unsubscribe?e=f2b89e282b42e25174179f5d1459bf0f&utm_source=jillstein&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ajamu_boston&n=10>.
> PAID FOR BY JILL STEIN FOR PRESIDENT
> PO BOX 260197, MADISON, WI 53726
> 
> 
> Created with NationBuilder <https://www.jill2016.com/r?u=http%3A%2F%2Fnationbuilder.com%2F&e=f2b89e282b42e25174179f5d1459bf0f&utm_source=jillstein&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ajamu_boston&n=11>
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From susanroseparenti at gmail.com  Wed Dec  6 18:39:52 2017
From: susanroseparenti at gmail.com (Susan Parenti)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 12:39:52 -0600
Subject: [Peace] tomorrow, Thursday, 7:30pm, IMC: Glo Heart,
	on global immigration
Message-ID: <CAKfUjSEM6TGTXmy0fph7+WxwRM3+-jsMt9XS4MxKq-rB8jhyuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi friends--
Mark Enslin and I have composed a play on global immigration, based on the
book Global Heartlands written by local activist-teacher, Faranak Miraftab.

This Thursday at 7:30pm, at the IMC, we're doing a performance of that
play, with a discussion afterwards, with Faranak present.

We're intending to tour Illinois with this play for the next 12 months--and
have already performed it in Rantoul and Bloomington/Normal in the past
weeks.

We'd love it if you could attend, put in your 2 cents in the discussion.
The play is around 45 minutes long, with a half hour discussion.

Looking forward to seeing you there!

-- 
*Susan Parenti*
*Educational Coordinator *

*The School for Designing a Society *www.designingasociety.net

*Like us on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/designasociety>!*
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Wed Dec  6 20:52:52 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 20:52:52 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Fwd: Anti-Tax Rally by a coalition of groups
References: <CA3A7533-AFA0-47E1-976E-89ECAFE91A0A@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB16775221C51A2A12CEBD4672A3320@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>



Begin forwarded message:

From: Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com<mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>>
Subject: Anti-Tax Rally by a coalition of groups
Date: December 6, 2017 at 10:49:27 PST
To: Peace-discuss List <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>>
Cc: Debra Schrishuhn <deb.pdamerica at gmail.com<mailto:deb.pdamerica at gmail.com>>, Niloofar Shambayati <niloofar.peace at gmail.com<mailto:niloofar.peace at gmail.com>>, David Enstrom <daenstrom at gmail.com<mailto:daenstrom at gmail.com>>, Lois Kain <lois2 at comcast.net<mailto:lois2 at comcast.net>>

Congress is rushing through a new tax bill that will increase taxes on ordinary people by $4.5 trillion over ten years, the largest tax increase in US history. The bill will trigger automatic cuts to Medicare and Social Security, further devastate public education, and may include a massive tax increase on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this bill will transform the economy for generations to come, leading to even more economic and racial inequality.

We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, but they've shown us that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. On Saturday 12/16 at 2pm, we will join nationwide protests against the tax bill by rallying outside the federal courthouse in Urbana at 201 S. Vine St. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this cruel bill is dead!

[cid:B77DAC60-9679-42AA-B939-D7A7A1C5AD35]

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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Wed Dec  6 21:05:57 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 21:05:57 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Anti-tax rally up dated info.
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB167716D563BAC62B01C64C24A3320@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

[cid:A616360E-8597-45F4-96EC-84FDF7F6C22B]
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From susanroseparenti at gmail.com  Thu Dec  7 17:52:29 2017
From: susanroseparenti at gmail.com (Susan Parenti)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 11:52:29 -0600
Subject: [Peace] Today, 7:3opm at the IMC---Glo Heart,
	with Faranak Miraftab present!
Message-ID: <CAKfUjSGST_uXxZJrcFUyNT-EzA7gzYSgYCab-f-jcvcvd_hR_Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi friends--
Mark Enslin and I have composed a play on global immigration, based on the
book Global Heartlands written by local activist-teacher, Faranak Miraftab.

Today, Thursday at 7:30pm, at the IMC, we're doing a performance of that
play, with a discussion afterwards, with Faranak present.

We're intending to tour Illinois with this play for the next 12 months--and
have already performed it in Rantoul and Bloomington/Normal in the past
weeks.

We'd love it if you could attend, put in your 2 cents in the discussion.
The play is around 45 minutes long, with a half hour discussion.

Looking forward to seeing you there!

-- 
*Susan Parenti*
*Educational Coordinator *

*The School for Designing a Society *www.designingasociety.net

*Like us on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/designasociety>!*
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From moboct1 at aim.com  Sat Dec  9 15:03:32 2017
From: moboct1 at aim.com (Mildred O'brien)
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 10:03:32 -0500
Subject: [Peace] L'Shana Haba'ah B'Yerushalayim
In-Reply-To: <5a2bf5a1.920d240a.7c49e.b3c5@mx.google.com>
References: <5a2bf5a1.920d240a.7c49e.b3c5@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <1603bcd841f-1710-1a614@webjas-vad073.srv.aolmail.net>

Yeah, already it's open season on Gaza--again.

Midge


-----Original Message-----
From: kmedina67 <kmedina67 at gmail.com>
To: Peace-discuss List <Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Cc: Stuart Levy <stuartnlevy at gmail.com>; David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>; Mildred O'brien <moboct1 at aim.com>; Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 9, 2017 8:39 am
Subject: Re: L'Shana Haba'ah B'Yerushalayim

The guaranteed result of Trump's Jerusalem move is perpetual war in the Middle East.

-Karen Medina

-------- Original message --------
From: C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
Date: 12/6/17 20:29 (GMT-06:00)


Suppose Trump has made his Jerusalem move as part of a 'deal' - a negotiation - to mollify Israel & the KSA - as a substitute for war with Iran (backed by Russia)?

That would be sabre-rattling that might get both Bibi & MBS off his back. The Pentagon wants to threaten - not actually fight - Russia; they learnt their lesson in Syria.
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sun Dec 10 19:18:33 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:18:33 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Fwd: [Peace-discuss] FW: Anti-Tax Rally by a coalition of
 groups (new data)
References: <SN1PR08MB16770F3B6893AEB1BF343778A3360@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB1677B302555D3F6485B74D44A3360@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>



Congress is rushing through a new tax bill that will increase taxes on ordinary people by trillions over ten years, the largest tax increase in US history (https://theintercept.com/2017/12/01/the-gop-plan-is-the-biggest-tax-increase-in-american-history-by-far/<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheintercept.com%2F2017%2F12%2F01%2Fthe-gop-plan-is-the-biggest-tax-increase-in-american-history-by-far%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce22e02c8c03d4ed38f0908d53ff9715a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636485262931337634&sdata=eiXLgqOU0Fv7EWfUUyajNtvfXSCqJiHR9lezXtyHXyE%3D&reserved=0>). The bill will trigger automatic cuts to Medicare and Social Security, further devastate public education, and may include a massive tax increase on graduate students. With $6 trillion in tax cuts for the rich, this bill will transform the economy for generations to come, leading to even more economic and racial inequality.

We've written and called our representatives to oppose the bill, but they've shown us that they truly don't care. So we're not asking any more. On Saturday 12/16 at 2pm, we will join nationwide protests against the tax bill by rallying outside the federal courthouse in Urbana at 201 S. Vine St. Join us and show that there will be no peace until this cruel bill is dead!
[cid:image001.jpg at 01D371B4.68DC5B00]
_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 12 13:52:55 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 13:52:55 +0000
Subject: [Peace] FIGHT BACK AGAINST THE TAX RIP OFF
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB16776FAA5BE64366521AC6BAA3340@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

<https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10111872639971144&set=gm.149876032328242&type=3>
[Image may contain: 1 person, text]
‎Joel Reinstein<https://www.facebook.com/pinkoproselytizer?hc_ref=ARTao-5vRQKnooBQedzQrGUq5yCTqN8KDxD3Uu_GNdenY4TbSTT6o1Td4I28nJe-2co&fref=nf>‎ to Fight the Tax Rip-Off!<https://www.facebook.com/events/148278565821322/permalink/149876032328242/?ref=22&action_history=%5B%7B%22surface%22%3A%22timeline%22%2C%22mechanism%22%3A%22surface%22%2C%22extra_data%22%3A%5B%5D%7D%5D>
13 hrs<https://www.facebook.com/events/148278565821322/permalink/149876032328242/?ref=22&action_history=null> ·

We have a flyer! Please share this widely, it'll be updated as we get more co-sponsors. If you know of a group that could co-sponsor, please contact us! And don't forget to invite your friends---
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 12 13:52:55 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 13:52:55 +0000
Subject: [Peace] FIGHT BACK AGAINST THE TAX RIP OFF
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB16776FAA5BE64366521AC6BAA3340@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

<https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10111872639971144&set=gm.149876032328242&type=3>
[Image may contain: 1 person, text]
‎Joel Reinstein<https://www.facebook.com/pinkoproselytizer?hc_ref=ARTao-5vRQKnooBQedzQrGUq5yCTqN8KDxD3Uu_GNdenY4TbSTT6o1Td4I28nJe-2co&fref=nf>‎ to Fight the Tax Rip-Off!<https://www.facebook.com/events/148278565821322/permalink/149876032328242/?ref=22&action_history=%5B%7B%22surface%22%3A%22timeline%22%2C%22mechanism%22%3A%22surface%22%2C%22extra_data%22%3A%5B%5D%7D%5D>
13 hrs<https://www.facebook.com/events/148278565821322/permalink/149876032328242/?ref=22&action_history=null> ·

We have a flyer! Please share this widely, it'll be updated as we get more co-sponsors. If you know of a group that could co-sponsor, please contact us! And don't forget to invite your friends---
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 14 13:08:58 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 13:08:58 +0000
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Eminent sense: joy in the morning
In-Reply-To: <70A7F0CA-5D33-4475-B550-F78AEBF597AB@gmail.com>
References: <70A7F0CA-5D33-4475-B550-F78AEBF597AB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB167702B0B5F07F6942B44AB3A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

I couldn’t agree more, with what Caitlin Johnstone is saying as it pertains to focus on Trump, but ignoring the issues confronting us, such as the “tax bill” the movement of the US Embassy to Jerusalem, the further destruction of healthcare, education, the environment, continuing wars, especially in Yemen, Somalia, and being pumped up on the African continent, and just focusing on “stop bashing Trump” isn’t the answer either.


On Dec 14, 2017, at 03:57, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:

https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/anti-trumpism-is-anti-progressivism-in-disguise-9e688e6152e9<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmedium.com%2F%40caityjohnstone%2Fanti-trumpism-is-anti-progressivism-in-disguise-9e688e6152e9&data=02%7C01%7C%7C15c2c14c51c9444e3b8a08d542e9dd47%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488494558765345&sdata=TdjcCPesfK52HmkWACalypGvtZiziPVPDVdGgs%2FiND8%3D&reserved=0>

http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/bad-moon-rising/<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unz.com%2Fpgiraldi%2Fbad-moon-rising%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C15c2c14c51c9444e3b8a08d542e9dd47%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488494558921598&sdata=CyQhNEYDL14WTx%2Byww%2FnhjCryeIRniesHZrDuOXtYfc%3D&reserved=0>

—CGE
_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 14 15:33:03 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 15:33:03 +0000
Subject: [Peace] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_Time_is_Running_Out_=E2=80=94_Please_Joi?=
 =?utf-8?q?n_Our_Conference_on_U=2ES=2E_Foreign_Military_Bases?=
References: <ccd625b69dbee766fcef0d707.5adb4aabb5.20171214140159.e4411679c2.dc41be80@mail224.suw16.rsgsv.net>
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB16776F6FB2DF94A42039AD23A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>



Subject: Time is Running Out — Please Join Our Conference on U.S. Foreign Military Bases

Reply-To: No Bases List <admin at noforeignbases.org<mailto:admin at noforeignbases.org>>


LESS THAN A MONTH LEFT! PLEASE JOIN US




[https://gallery.mailchimp.com/ccd625b69dbee766fcef0d707/images/134bb23c-8e0a-4bdc-9355-d038f70ccd28.jpg]



Conference on U.S. Foreign Military Bases
January 12 - 14, 2018, University of Baltimore
Learning Commons Town Hall, Baltimore, Maryland
Organized by: Coalition Against U.S. Foreign Military Bases

Fourteen prominent peace, justice and environmental organizations in the United States are collectively organizing a 3-day national conference on U.S. Foreign Military Bases on January 12-14, 2018, at the University of Baltimore, Maryland: • Alliance for Global Justice • Black Alliance for Peace • CODEPINK • Global Network Against Weapons and Nuclear Power in Space • International Action Center • Liberty Tree Foundation • MLK Justice Coalition • Nuclear Age Peace Foundation • Popular Resistance • United National Antiwar Coalition • U.S. Peace Council • Veterans For Peace • Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom • World Beyond War.





You can join and support this Conference by:

  1.  Registering and attending the Conference.
  2.  Having your organization endorse the Conference.
  3.  Placing an ad or a solidarity message from your group in the Conference Journal.

Click Here for Conference Details, Registration and Endorsement<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhr258.us15.list-manage.com%2Ftrack%2Fclick%3Fu%3Dccd625b69dbee766fcef0d707%26id%3Dba10ae8a5a%26e%3D5adb4aabb5&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cade072fd4c5b45cf152b08d542fb4f01%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488569478320532&sdata=AV7EpiyoiGID2AT2HJSPfiOtYrE%2Fpyef%2FZ%2BdbXjNsro%3D&reserved=0>



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This email was sent to karenaram at hotmail.com<mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 14 15:35:43 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 15:35:43 +0000
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] What we're up against
In-Reply-To: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com>
References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB1677E4CCA04D534EB90CB6F8A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages.

On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Finequality%2F2017%2Fdec%2F14%2Finequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=5nGgMqjZ9MibNWwTeDXlb%2BrBmZXxlBL15uUN0sMBXTI%3D&reserved=0>

It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans.

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky]
_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=hGovUp0sOejyaVZtEvv4orYI4cK50iEzjBzM6x1CiH4%3D&reserved=0

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From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com  Thu Dec 14 17:15:35 2017
From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 11:15:35 -0600
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] What we're up against
In-Reply-To: <SN1PR08MB1677E4CCA04D534EB90CB6F8A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB1677E4CCA04D534EB90CB6F8A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com>

Karen
I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. 
Deb

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> 
> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. 
> 
>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> 
>> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence
>> 
>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans.
>> 
>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky]
>> _______________________________________________
>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=hGovUp0sOejyaVZtEvv4orYI4cK50iEzjBzM6x1CiH4%3D&reserved=0
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Peace mailing list
> Peace at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 14 18:11:50 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 18:11:50 +0000
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] What we're up against
In-Reply-To: <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com>
References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB1677E4CCA04D534EB90CB6F8A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB16775AD2AD8CA4BB3878A646A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free.

According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia.
AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote.






On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn <deb.pdamerica at gmail.com<mailto:deb.pdamerica at gmail.com>> wrote:

Karen
I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law.
Deb

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:

In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages.

On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Finequality%2F2017%2Fdec%2F14%2Finequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=5nGgMqjZ9MibNWwTeDXlb%2BrBmZXxlBL15uUN0sMBXTI%3D&reserved=0>

It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans.

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky]
_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=hGovUp0sOejyaVZtEvv4orYI4cK50iEzjBzM6x1CiH4%3D&reserved=0

_______________________________________________
Peace mailing list
Peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:Peace at lists.chambana.net>
https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7C%7C944c1f43b83d4afd06bf08d543164d7b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488685416261875&sdata=YT4UCyHmHkkg4n1bYC51ShBi29wLs5yYV6SOHYVuA6w%3D&reserved=0>

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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 14 18:39:32 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 18:39:32 +0000
Subject: [Peace] US lawmakers voted against Net Neutrality
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB1677476DDFBE612FFF7A2AC7A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

Service providers can alter speed of websites, etc. among other things.

From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com  Thu Dec 14 23:58:28 2017
From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 17:58:28 -0600
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] What we're up against
In-Reply-To: <SN1PR08MB16775AD2AD8CA4BB3878A646A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB1677E4CCA04D534EB90CB6F8A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB16775AD2AD8CA4BB3878A646A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <C13F745D-8037-4352-BA4F-F4018794CF32@gmail.com>

Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered support when it looked like he might win. 

As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be foolish not to take advantage of it. 

Deb
Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. 
> 
> According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. 
> AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn <deb.pdamerica at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Karen
>> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. 
>> Deb
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. 
>>> 
>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence
>>>> 
>>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans.
>>>> 
>>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky]
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=hGovUp0sOejyaVZtEvv4orYI4cK50iEzjBzM6x1CiH4%3D&reserved=0
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Peace mailing list
>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
> 
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From cgestabrook at gmail.com  Fri Dec 15 14:23:34 2017
From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 08:23:34 -0600
Subject: [Peace] Call to action
Message-ID: <6E51D5F2-3B1E-4394-879B-A57D464536F9@gmail.com>

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2017/12/15/we-can-get-fccs-decision-kill-net-neutrality-overturned-heres-how <https://www.commondreams.org/views/2017/12/15/we-can-get-fccs-decision-kill-net-neutrality-overturned-heres-how>

Write our representatives in Congress and demand their commitment to this. Here are their email addresses:

Representative Rodney Davis: <https://rodneydavis.house.gov/contact/>
Senator Tammy Duckworth: <https://www.duckworth.senate.gov/content/contact-senator>
Senator Dick Durbin: <https://www.durbin.senate.gov/contact/email>

###



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From susanroseparenti at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 02:05:19 2017
From: susanroseparenti at gmail.com (Susan Parenti)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 20:05:19 -0600
Subject: [Peace] anyone besides me who would like to christmas carol our
	neighbors?
Message-ID: <CAKfUjSHcf-fSfK62h-vTBhoatKVbiYEDRdKgkDC5JrF_0G=piA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi--I'm pooped out from this year's(self-appointed) role of
inviting-friends-to-things-that-are happening. SO---Enough of Susan. Be
quiet, Susan. No more email blasts.

But/and/yet I am haunted by a desire to go Christmas caroling, or whatever
caroling, as a way to meet my neighbors. Want to come?

Across the street from where I/we  live is a housing project called Crystal
View, that is a mixture of out-and-out commercial, and also some low-income
funding. There are a huge amount of people who live there who have had the
immigration experience.

Would anyone else like to Christmas carol Tuesday night, 6-7pm? We'll have
accordions, song sheets with the words of the carols (even the *second*
verse) and then at 7pm we can retreat to my house, drink hot cider, eat
cookies, recount on who we met.

?



-- 
*Susan Parenti*
*Educational Coordinator *

*The School for Designing a Society *www.designingasociety.net

*Like us on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/designasociety>!*
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From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 09:41:57 2017
From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 03:41:57 -0600
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss]   What we're up against
In-Reply-To: <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu>
References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB1677E4CCA04D534EB90CB6F8A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB16775AD2AD8CA4BB3878A646A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <C13F745D-8037-4352-BA4F-F4018794CF32@gmail.com>
 <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu>
Message-ID: <B5C82FE1-71D2-4431-AAA1-6E45DF41B1DC@gmail.com>

Did it ever occur to you that Trump might have been LYING when he criticized "neolib and neocon policies" in order to stoke voter anger and gain votes, just like he lied about draining the swamp, respecting women, not hurting Medicare and Social Security, providing "terrific" health care for everyone, and too many other subjects to mention?

Deb

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 14, 2017, at 8:41 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" <galliher at illinois.edu> wrote:
> 
> The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war) abroad, and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an apparatchik of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on their real needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration, under Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably quiescent suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and neocon policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those policies). Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the populist genie back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them. 
> 
> Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military policies of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity” with the rest of the world: <https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence>.
> 
> All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats) has to offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: <https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/anti-trumpism-is-anti-progressivism-in-disguise-9e688e6152e9>.
> 
> Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than that, but rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE
> 
> 
>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered support when it looked like he might win. 
>> 
>> As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be foolish not to take advantage of it. 
>> 
>> Deb
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. 
>>> 
>>> According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. 
>>> AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn <deb.pdamerica at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Karen
>>>> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. 
>>>> Deb
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky]
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>>>> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=hGovUp0sOejyaVZtEvv4orYI4cK50iEzjBzM6x1CiH4%3D&reserved=0
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Peace mailing list
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>>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
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From jbw292002 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 10:17:11 2017
From: jbw292002 at gmail.com (John W.)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 04:17:11 -0600
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] What we're up against
In-Reply-To: <B5C82FE1-71D2-4431-AAA1-6E45DF41B1DC@gmail.com>
References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB1677E4CCA04D534EB90CB6F8A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB16775AD2AD8CA4BB3878A646A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <C13F745D-8037-4352-BA4F-F4018794CF32@gmail.com>
 <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu>
 <B5C82FE1-71D2-4431-AAA1-6E45DF41B1DC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPnrEOXS-zsH9e2ULTtvo0tSdwPxiE3sZZUT+Enu7SOBWEBtVA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace <
peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

Did it ever occur to you that Trump might have been LYING when he
> criticized "neolib and neocon policies" in order to stoke voter anger and
> gain votes, just like he lied about draining the swamp, respecting women,
> not hurting Medicare and Social Security, providing "terrific" health care
> for everyone, and too many other subjects to mention?
>
> Deb
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>

Even the term "lying" seems too rational or calculated or sophisticated,
somehow, to describe tRump.  You can't THEORIZE about tRump in anything
like the normal way.  I would simply say that tRump is so far gone that his
words bear absolutely no relation to his actions or intentions, which are
impulsive and childish and motivated solely by insecurity and narcissism,
certainly not by any coherent ideology.  His words are never to be believed
or trusted, to a far greater degree even than the average politician.  They
are simply to be ignored, and his actions observed and noted as the actions
of a madman.  He's a dangerous child with the nuclear codes.

John Wason





> On Dec 14, 2017, at 8:41 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" <galliher at illinois.edu>
> wrote:
>
> The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war) abroad,
> and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an apparatchik
> of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on their real
> needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration, under
> Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably quiescent
> suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and neocon
> policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those policies).
> Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the populist genie
> back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them.
>
> Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military policies
> of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity” with the
> rest of the world: <https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/
> inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-
> recipe-for-divergence>.
>
> All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats) has to
> offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: <https://medium.com/@
> caityjohnstone/anti-trumpism-is-anti-progressivism-in-
> disguise-9e688e6152e9>.
>
> Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than that, but
> rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE
>
>
> On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
> Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public
> service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent
> (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed
> him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who
> first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered
> support when it looked like he might win.
>
> As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and
> screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of
> setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be
> foolish not to take advantage of it.
>
> Deb
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but
> given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record
> of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change,
> Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that
> state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have
> said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the
> crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to
> walk free.
>
> According to *JUAN GONZÁLEZ:* Doug Jones’ victory marks *the first time
> in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama.*
> Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones
> against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism,
> sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia.
> *AMY GOODMAN:* Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with
> African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for
> defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted
> for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for
> Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore.
> A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being
> accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when
> they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone
> Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary
> during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have
> won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black
> women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies
> and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that
> effort,” unquote.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn <deb.pdamerica at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Karen
> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat
> who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who
> totally disrespects the rule of law.
> Deb
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <
> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme
> poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations
> in sub saharan African villages.
>
> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/
> inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-
> recipe-for-divergence
> <https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Finequality%2F2017%2Fdec%2F14%2Finequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=5nGgMqjZ9MibNWwTeDXlb%2BrBmZXxlBL15uUN0sMBXTI%3D&reserved=0>
>
> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans.
>
> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly
> limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate
> within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident
> views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on,
> while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced
> by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky]
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%
> 2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%
> 7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=
> hGovUp0sOejyaVZtEvv4orYI4cK50iEzjBzM6x1CiH4%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace mailing list
> Peace at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
> <https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7C%7C944c1f43b83d4afd06bf08d543164d7b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488685416261875&sdata=YT4UCyHmHkkg4n1bYC51ShBi29wLs5yYV6SOHYVuA6w%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace mailing list
> Peace at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>
>
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sat Dec 16 13:30:00 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 13:30:00 +0000
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] What we're up against
In-Reply-To: <E64FD7F5-0ED8-49DA-A5D1-C015134FF104@illinois.edu>
References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB1677E4CCA04D534EB90CB6F8A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB16775AD2AD8CA4BB3878A646A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <C13F745D-8037-4352-BA4F-F4018794CF32@gmail.com>
 <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu>
 <B5C82FE1-71D2-4431-AAA1-6E45DF41B1DC@gmail.com>
 <CAPnrEOXS-zsH9e2ULTtvo0tSdwPxiE3sZZUT+Enu7SOBWEBtVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <E64FD7F5-0ED8-49DA-A5D1-C015134FF104@illinois.edu>
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB167713F1AEFC5E99FFF0D779A3080@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>


If we only focus on foreign policy, which continues with each administration whether Democrat or Republican, our one Party system owned by the corporations, it’s merely a matter of “strategy,” 

The Pentagon was displeased with Obama’s pivot to Asia, because they aren’t ready for war with China, they prefer staying in the middle east, and the ramping up of war with nations on the African continent (across the sahel). 

Obama did a fine job, providing the resources with Africom spread across the continent during his reign. Of course the American people took no notice, because colonizing and killing Africans whether here or there, is something the West has been doing for centuries with impunity. 

So the battles taking place between our institutions currently within the Beltway are simply a matter of “strategy,” that of, which nation do we destroy next, one can only stretch ones resources so far. Yes, did I mention Iran? Iran is now in the crosshairs, along with Russia, war with China can wait.

There is no candidate, no one residing within either of the one Party system of Democrats or Republicans who cares for peace, our Congressional leaders are owned by the corporations and if one rebels against the system he/she is likely penalized or gerrymandered out in some manner or another.

There are many things and people that need to be ignored, those squabbling over the elections for one. If all we do is argue amongst ourselves, and take no action against that which threatens to destroy humanity then we deserve what we get. 

Trump said a lot of things during the campaign, as do most candidates, anything to get elected, what matters now, is what his Administration is “doing.”  Not what he says. He is no “peace” candidate, never was. Wanting peace with Russia is about the money to be made doing business with Russia. Trump bombed Syria, and his provocations for war with North Korea, otherwise China, provocations for war with Iran, the moving of the US Embassy to Jerusalem, and his support for intervention in Libya as far back as 2011 are proof.

In the meantime, the elites/billionaires under the Trump Administration are having a field day, further impoverishing the American people, with the tax increase, anti-net neutrality, etc.,etc. Yes, the Obama Administration paved the way, but now it’s in our face, now it’s no longer hidden with excuses and obfuscation of events. Are we going to do nothing? Or are we going to take action, take to the streets, make our voices heard which is the only tried and true method of producing any change or progress. 

Today 2:00 Champaign County Courthouse on Main and Vine stand up against the tax increase against the working class. By the way, even if you aren’t working, even if you are a professional with various degrees, unless you’re a billionaire, you are “working class.”

> On Dec 16, 2017, at 02:48, Carl G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu> wrote:
> 
> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise – Caitlin Johnstone <medium.com>
> 
> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of.
> 
> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”.
> 
> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore.
> 
> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn.
> 
> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work.
> 
> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now.
> 
> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force.
> 
> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead.
> 
> _______
> 
>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 4:17 AM, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Did it ever occur to you that Trump might have been LYING when he criticized "neolib and neocon policies" in order to stoke voter anger and gain votes, just like he lied about draining the swamp, respecting women, not hurting Medicare and Social Security, providing "terrific" health care for everyone, and too many other subjects to mention?
>> 
>> Deb
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> Even the term "lying" seems too rational or calculated or sophisticated, somehow, to describe tRump.  You can't THEORIZE about tRump in anything like the normal way.  I would simply say that tRump is so far gone that his words bear absolutely no relation to his actions or intentions, which are impulsive and childish and motivated solely by insecurity and narcissism, certainly not by any coherent ideology.  His words are never to be believed or trusted, to a far greater degree even than the average politician.  They are simply to be ignored, and his actions observed and noted as the actions of a madman.  He's a dangerous child with the nuclear codes.
>> 
>> John Wason
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 8:41 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" <galliher at illinois.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war) abroad, and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an apparatchik of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on their real needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration, under Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably quiescent suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and neocon policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those policies). Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the populist genie back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them. 
>>> 
>>> Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military policies of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity” with the rest of the world: <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Finequality%2F2017%2Fdec%2F14%2Finequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1e6fa1ce5d6942af0f8208d54472cbb5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490182183861995&sdata=AKazhqT%2BQRqrAWIT6YM3ZXi5xU5TLP7PuLuMya9zmh8%3D&reserved=0>.
>>> 
>>> All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats) has to offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmedium.com%2F%40caityjohnstone%2Fanti-trumpism-is-anti-progressivism-in-disguise-9e688e6152e9&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1e6fa1ce5d6942af0f8208d54472cbb5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490182183861995&sdata=vYu8vIFiRvRR90Koy%2B%2BvpvwLqu6Hbd7Tu4NxmavS8OU%3D&reserved=0>.
>>> 
>>> Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than that, but rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered support when it looked like he might win. 
>>>> 
>>>> As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be foolish not to take advantage of it. 
>>>> 
>>>> Deb
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. 
>>>>> AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn <deb.pdamerica at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Karen
>>>>>> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. 
>>>>>> Deb
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Finequality%2F2017%2Fdec%2F14%2Finequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1e6fa1ce5d6942af0f8208d54472cbb5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490182183861995&sdata=AKazhqT%2BQRqrAWIT6YM3ZXi5xU5TLP7PuLuMya9zmh8%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky]
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> 


From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sat Dec 16 16:18:13 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 16:18:13 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Fwd: Daesh Possession of Anti-Tank Missile Exposes CIA Plan
 to Arm Jihadists - Sputnik International
References: <A577E3DDF9C35E4DA9C0B5E0346A12F03310F776@CITESMBX4.ad.uillinois.edu>
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB167707C04DB1B9FA24531F33A3080@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>


> 
> Subject: Daesh Possession of Anti-Tank Missile Exposes CIA Plan to Arm Jihadists - Sputnik International
> 
> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsputniknews.com%2Fanalysis%2F201712161060048524-daesh-anti-tank-missile-cia%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C44327a8b10f54c9ef5f308d5449f5109%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490373401112723&sdata=g2IHbEtpn8iPqwpDLwzJpFufhJkTOLdJWOQOyPWM7kU%3D&reserved=0
> 
> The acquisition of an anti-tank weapon by Daesh exposes the fact the CIA knowingly took great risks to arm extremists in a desperate bid to oust Syrian President Bashar Assad, analysts told Sputnik.
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON (Sputnik) - An anti-tank guided weapon made in Europe and sold to the United States, ended up in the hands of Daesh in Iraq within just two months, the Conflict Armament Research (CAR) group said in a newly-published report.
> 
> CIA DELIBERATE PROGRAM
> 
> The anti-tank missiles in question were apparently purchased under a secret program run by the Central Intelligence Agency and allegedly destined for Syrian opposition groups, according to BuzzFeed, although skepticism abounds on the nature of their ties to Daesh.
> 
> "The United States, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the Gulf sheikdoms and Turkey have been illegally arming, equipping, supplying, financing and supporting all the terrorist jihadi groups in Syria including the Islamic State (Daesh) from the very get-go for the purpose of overthrowing the Assad government," University of Illinois Professor of International Law Francis Boyle told Sputnik on Friday.
> 
> 
> 
> The National Cathedral is seen after green paint was discovered in two chapels inside the Cathedral in Washington on Monday, July 29, 2013.
> (c) AP Photo/ Jacquelyn Martin
> 
> Daesh Targets Washington's National Cathedral in Violent New Image These reports confirmed the consistent and deliberate policies of the US government in fanning the flames of the Syrian civil war that raged for six years and cost more than 600,000 lives, Boyle said.
> 
> However, the US policy of building up Daesh and other jihadists groups to topple the legitimate Syrian government had been thwarted by the support Russia and Iran had provided to Damascus, Boyle pointed out.
> 
> "They [US policymakers] would have accomplished this objective if not for the military intervention by Russia and then Iran at the request of the Syrian government pursuant to the right of collective self-defense recognized by United Nations Charter article 51," he said.
> 
> 
> 
> US President Donald Trump prepares to speak to the press before he meets with his cabinet in the Cabinet Room at the White House in Washington, DC, on March 13, 2017, as Defense Secretary James Mattis looks on (c) AFP 2017/ NICHOLAS KAMM
> 
> War Correspondent: Armies of Iraq, Syria Deserve Credit for Daesh Defeat, Not US Claiming the threat of Daesh as its justification, the United States had established thousands of its own troops within the territory of Syria in contravention of international law and against the clear will of the official government in Damascus, Boyle noted.
> 
> Boyle warned that Washington intended to maintain its illegal military presence in Syria indefinitely and planned to use its bases there as a springboard to attack Iran.
> 
> DEMOCRATIC FACADE
> 
> Retired US Army Colonel and military tactician Douglas Macgregor told Sputnik that the weapons sent to allegedly strengthen democratic forces in Syria had flowed to the extreme Islamist groups instead.
> 
> "Yes. These weapons went to the alleged "Sunni Arab Rebels" fighting for a democratic Syria. In reality, they and their cohorts were Islamists in coalition with al-Nusrah [Nusrah Front] and al-Qaeda affiliated groups," Macgreor said.
> 
> Earlier this year, President Donald Trump ended an enormous program of pro supporting and providing weapons to those groups, recognizing that they advanced Islamist goals, not secular democratic ones, Macgregor observed.
> 
> "This is why President Trump halted the arms flow to them," he said.
> 
> Macgregor commanded in the Battle of 73 Easting, a decisive tank fight during the 1991 Gulf War.
> 
> 


From brussel at illinois.edu  Sat Dec 16 17:27:03 2017
From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 17:27:03 +0000
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] What we're up against
In-Reply-To: <CAPnrEOXS-zsH9e2ULTtvo0tSdwPxiE3sZZUT+Enu7SOBWEBtVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB1677E4CCA04D534EB90CB6F8A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
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 <C13F745D-8037-4352-BA4F-F4018794CF32@gmail.com>
 <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu>
 <B5C82FE1-71D2-4431-AAA1-6E45DF41B1DC@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu>

I agree with your characterization of Trump, fully. He is incoherent, inept, and ignorant, even to those who have interviewed him with the intent of showing him to be less so. That anyone would put faith, or hope, in whatever he says is e extremely foolish. A very dangerous dilemma for the nation, and the world.
Thanks.  mkb


On Dec 16, 2017, at 4:17 AM, John W. via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:


On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:

Did it ever occur to you that Trump might have been LYING when he criticized "neolib and neocon policies" in order to stoke voter anger and gain votes, just like he lied about draining the swamp, respecting women, not hurting Medicare and Social Security, providing "terrific" health care for everyone, and too many other subjects to mention?

Deb

Sent from my iPhone

Even the term "lying" seems too rational or calculated or sophisticated, somehow, to describe tRump.  You can't THEORIZE about tRump in anything like the normal way.  I would simply say that tRump is so far gone that his words bear absolutely no relation to his actions or intentions, which are impulsive and childish and motivated solely by insecurity and narcissism, certainly not by any coherent ideology.  His words are never to be believed or trusted, to a far greater degree even than the average politician.  They are simply to be ignored, and his actions observed and noted as the actions of a madman.  He's a dangerous child with the nuclear codes.

John Wason




On Dec 14, 2017, at 8:41 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" <galliher at illinois.edu<mailto:galliher at illinois.edu>> wrote:

The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war) abroad, and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an apparatchik of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on their real needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration, under Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably quiescent suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and neocon policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those policies). Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the populist genie back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them.

Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military policies of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity” with the rest of the world: <https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence>.

All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats) has to offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: <https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/anti-trumpism-is-anti-progressivism-in-disguise-9e688e6152e9>.

Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than that, but rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE


On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:

Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered support when it looked like he might win.

As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be foolish not to take advantage of it.

Deb
Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com<mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>> wrote:

Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free.

According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia.
AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote.






On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn <deb.pdamerica at gmail.com<mailto:deb.pdamerica at gmail.com>> wrote:

Karen
I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law.
Deb

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:

In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages.

On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Finequality%2F2017%2Fdec%2F14%2Finequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence&data=02%7C01%7C%7Caeb766a77e2f47b2a68208d543033b1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636488603511217150&sdata=5nGgMqjZ9MibNWwTeDXlb%2BrBmZXxlBL15uUN0sMBXTI%3D&reserved=0>

It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans.

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky]
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sat Dec 16 18:20:09 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 18:20:09 +0000
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] What we're up against
In-Reply-To: <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com>
References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com>
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 <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu>
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 <CAPnrEOXS-zsH9e2ULTtvo0tSdwPxiE3sZZUT+Enu7SOBWEBtVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu>
 <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB1677B79164E092BDA2FC0A12A3080@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

 Carl, support for Trump, who is not the problem, yes, he is dangerous, but he is not the problem, he is a symptom. Trump represents the corporate elites and they are on a rampage, only resistance to the issues and policy’s and corporate capitalism will bring progress. Not the Democrats, they’re owned by Wall Street, and any assumption that Bernie as a supporter of the Democrat is going to bring change is a mistake as well.

 Once the polar ice caps are gone, it will take thousands of years to bring them back, if ever. We have no time, no time at all.

Sorry I don’t have time to read Caitlyn’s article, because action is what we need, and we do have a rally today to which some of us will attend. Arm chair warriors are dangerous distractions, if they aren’t enlightening. 


> On Dec 16, 2017, at 09:38, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise 
> 
> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of.
> 
> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”.
> 
> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore.
> 
> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn.
> 
> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work.
> 
> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now.
> 
> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force.
> 
> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead.
> 
> --– Caitlin Johnstone <medium.com>
> 
> 
>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> 
>> I agree with your characterization of Trump, fully. He is incoherent, inept, and ignorant, even to those who have interviewed him with the intent of showing him to be less so. That anyone would put faith, or hope, in whatever he says is e extremely foolish. A very dangerous dilemma for the nation, and the world.
>> Thanks.  mkb
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 4:17 AM, John W. via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Did it ever occur to you that Trump might have been LYING when he criticized "neolib and neocon policies" in order to stoke voter anger and gain votes, just like he lied about draining the swamp, respecting women, not hurting Medicare and Social Security, providing "terrific" health care for everyone, and too many other subjects to mention?
>>> 
>>> Deb
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> Even the term "lying" seems too rational or calculated or sophisticated, somehow, to describe tRump.  You can't THEORIZE about tRump in anything like the normal way.  I would simply say that tRump is so far gone that his words bear absolutely no relation to his actions or intentions, which are impulsive and childish and motivated solely by insecurity and narcissism, certainly not by any coherent ideology.  His words are never to be believed or trusted, to a far greater degree even than the average politician.  They are simply to be ignored, and his actions observed and noted as the actions of a madman.  He's a dangerous child with the nuclear codes.
>>> 
>>> John Wason
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 8:41 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" <galliher at illinois.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war) abroad, and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an apparatchik of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on their real needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration, under Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably quiescent suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and neocon policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those policies). Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the populist genie back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them. 
>>>> 
>>>> Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military policies of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity” with the rest of the world: <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Finequality%2F2017%2Fdec%2F14%2Finequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence&data=02%7C01%7C%7C7f8400f230894b2f0f1308d544abdf98%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490427334977158&sdata=Ct1xu8usGF7P5z5%2Bjc4romCThCYF3z83qGD%2Fqx6i0f0%3D&reserved=0>.
>>>> 
>>>> All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats) has to offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmedium.com%2F%40caityjohnstone%2Fanti-trumpism-is-anti-progressivism-in-disguise-9e688e6152e9&data=02%7C01%7C%7C7f8400f230894b2f0f1308d544abdf98%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490427334977158&sdata=41C5knejbNCip7Rwk5nvh4%2B5536JoQG3DFnPw9ifYcE%3D&reserved=0>.
>>>> 
>>>> Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than that, but rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered support when it looked like he might win. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be foolish not to take advantage of it. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Deb
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. 
>>>>>> AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn <deb.pdamerica at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Karen
>>>>>>> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. 
>>>>>>> Deb
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Finequality%2F2017%2Fdec%2F14%2Finequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence&data=02%7C01%7C%7C7f8400f230894b2f0f1308d544abdf98%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636490427334977158&sdata=Ct1xu8usGF7P5z5%2Bjc4romCThCYF3z83qGD%2Fqx6i0f0%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky]
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> 


From brussel at illinois.edu  Sat Dec 16 20:20:14 2017
From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 20:20:14 +0000
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] What we're up against
In-Reply-To: <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com>
References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB1677E4CCA04D534EB90CB6F8A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB16775AD2AD8CA4BB3878A646A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <C13F745D-8037-4352-BA4F-F4018794CF32@gmail.com>
 <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu>
 <B5C82FE1-71D2-4431-AAA1-6E45DF41B1DC@gmail.com>
 <CAPnrEOXS-zsH9e2ULTtvo0tSdwPxiE3sZZUT+Enu7SOBWEBtVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu>
 <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu>

Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong, address to a Sanctuary audience. .  

—mkb

> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise 
> 
> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of.
> 
> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”.
> 
> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore.
> 
> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn.
> 
> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work.
> 
> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now.
> 
> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force.
> 
> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead.
> 
> --– Caitlin Johnstone <medium.com>
> 
> 
>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> 
>> I agree with your characterization of Trump, fully. He is incoherent, inept, and ignorant, even to those who have interviewed him with the intent of showing him to be less so. That anyone would put faith, or hope, in whatever he says is e extremely foolish. A very dangerous dilemma for the nation, and the world.
>> Thanks.  mkb
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 4:17 AM, John W. via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Did it ever occur to you that Trump might have been LYING when he criticized "neolib and neocon policies" in order to stoke voter anger and gain votes, just like he lied about draining the swamp, respecting women, not hurting Medicare and Social Security, providing "terrific" health care for everyone, and too many other subjects to mention?
>>> 
>>> Deb
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> Even the term "lying" seems too rational or calculated or sophisticated, somehow, to describe tRump.  You can't THEORIZE about tRump in anything like the normal way.  I would simply say that tRump is so far gone that his words bear absolutely no relation to his actions or intentions, which are impulsive and childish and motivated solely by insecurity and narcissism, certainly not by any coherent ideology.  His words are never to be believed or trusted, to a far greater degree even than the average politician.  They are simply to be ignored, and his actions observed and noted as the actions of a madman.  He's a dangerous child with the nuclear codes.
>>> 
>>> John Wason
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 8:41 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" <galliher at illinois.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war) abroad, and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an apparatchik of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on their real needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration, under Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably quiescent suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and neocon policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those policies). Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the populist genie back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them. 
>>>> 
>>>> Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military policies of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity” with the rest of the world: <https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence>.
>>>> 
>>>> All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats) has to offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: <https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/anti-trumpism-is-anti-progressivism-in-disguise-9e688e6152e9>.
>>>> 
>>>> Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than that, but rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back and only offered support when it looked like he might win. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be foolish not to take advantage of it. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Deb
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them to walk free. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism, sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia. 
>>>>>> AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender, with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore. A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that effort,” unquote.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn <deb.pdamerica at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Karen
>>>>>>> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law. 
>>>>>>> Deb
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many nations in sub saharan African villages. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky]
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> 


From jbw292002 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 23:08:51 2017
From: jbw292002 at gmail.com (John W.)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 17:08:51 -0600
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss]  What we're up against
In-Reply-To: <2ECC75BA-4204-45D1-8953-06116E9D50FD@gmail.com>
References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB1677E4CCA04D534EB90CB6F8A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB16775AD2AD8CA4BB3878A646A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <C13F745D-8037-4352-BA4F-F4018794CF32@gmail.com>
 <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu>
 <B5C82FE1-71D2-4431-AAA1-6E45DF41B1DC@gmail.com>
 <CAPnrEOXS-zsH9e2ULTtvo0tSdwPxiE3sZZUT+Enu7SOBWEBtVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu>
 <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com>
 <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu>
 <2ECC75BA-4204-45D1-8953-06116E9D50FD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPnrEOX5+-doc23hdNYBd8UoDooMKnQUfN6N=besOxWUy7CzJw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
wrote:

How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that
> deploring Trump’s character  is not the way.
>
> The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of war
> and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat
> administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as
> a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies.
>
> He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and
> that was enough to terrify the neocons.
>
> Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points that
> out clearly.
>
> Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what
> remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war
> ‘center’ …  the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into
> supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…"
>
> That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US
> war-making is. —CGE
>


Except that U.S. war-making antedates tRump, and Coolidge, and indeed the
birth of the Republic.  :-/  War-making is a permanent and immutable
characteristic of human nature.  U.S. imperialism is a bit more recent, but
not much.  It's a continuum.  And imperialism in general characterizes
every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states.  Even
earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.





> > On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >
> > Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the
> point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies
> rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more
> generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the
> rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must
> go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong,
> address to a Sanctuary audience. .
> >
> > —mkb
> >
> >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise
> >>
> >> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their
> narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama
> yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been
> ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t
> care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how
> this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever
> moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like
> to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics
> that this is a part of.
> >>
> >> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I
> don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form,
> nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many
> legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By
> anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult
> which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and
> at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a
> deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left
> into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”.
> >>
> >> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general
> “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game
> both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations.
> Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the
> most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones
> campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still
> viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This
> extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator
> who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help
> move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in
> self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore.
> >>
> >> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a
> much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that
> Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and
> (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the
> political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and
> agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an
> imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for
> their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn.
> >>
> >> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists
> telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to
> impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t
> and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit,
> charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they
> “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third
> party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand
> a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When
> it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the
> Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they
> “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward
> economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But
> Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country
> further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as
> long as it continues to work.
> >>
> >> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way
> it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When
> this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just
> like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last
> one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd
> the left into the center, just like they’re doing now.
> >>
> >> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that
> progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party
> beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment
> and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this
> simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore
> up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which
> Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which
> only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media
> influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force.
> >>
> >> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US
> politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do
> isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to
> walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at
> the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and
> you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves
> all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into
> conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your
> minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead.
> >>
> >> --– Caitlin Johnstone <medium.com>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace <
> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I agree with your characterization of Trump, fully. He is incoherent,
> inept, and ignorant, even to those who have interviewed him with the intent
> of showing him to be less so. That anyone would put faith, or hope, in
> whatever he says is e extremely foolish. A very dangerous dilemma for the
> nation, and the world.
> >>> Thanks.  mkb
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 4:17 AM, John W. via Peace <
> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace <
> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Did it ever occur to you that Trump might have been LYING when he
> criticized "neolib and neocon policies" in order to stoke voter anger and
> gain votes, just like he lied about draining the swamp, respecting women,
> not hurting Medicare and Social Security, providing "terrific" health care
> for everyone, and too many other subjects to mention?
> >>>>
> >>>> Deb
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>
> >>>> Even the term "lying" seems too rational or calculated or
> sophisticated, somehow, to describe tRump.  You can't THEORIZE about tRump
> in anything like the normal way.  I would simply say that tRump is so far
> gone that his words bear absolutely no relation to his actions or
> intentions, which are impulsive and childish and motivated solely by
> insecurity and narcissism, certainly not by any coherent ideology.  His
> words are never to be believed or trusted, to a far greater degree even
> than the average politician.  They are simply to be ignored, and his
> actions observed and noted as the actions of a madman.  He's a dangerous
> child with the nuclear codes.
> >>>>
> >>>> John Wason
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 8:41 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" <
> galliher at illinois.edu> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> The Democrat party supports neoconservative policies (more war)
> abroad, and neoliberal policies (more inequality) at home. Jones is an
> apparatchik of that party. The people of Alabama need to educate him on
> their real needs - viz., an end to 40 years of accelerating immiseration,
> under Democrat as well as Republican administrations. Their remarkably
> quiescent suffering finally elected a president who criticized neolib and
> neocon policies (who was then under intense pressure to continue those
> policies). Time-servers like Jones probably won’t be able to put the
> populist genie back in the bottle. We shouldn’t help them.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Here’s what we’re dealing with, along with the vicious military
> policies of the Obama-Clinton administration to “maintain the disparity”
> with the rest of the world: <https://www.theguardian.com/
> inequality/2017/dec/14/inequality-is-not-inevitable-
> but-the-us-experiment-is-a-recipe-for-divergence>.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> All the political establishment (very much including the Democrats)
> has to offer is disingenuous 'anti-Trumpism’: <https://medium.com/@
> caityjohnstone/anti-trumpism-is-anti-progressivism-in-
> disguise-9e688e6152e9>.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Americans are coming to understand that they can do better than
> that, but rather clearly not with Democrats. —CGE
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Debra Schrishuhn via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Right you are, Karen. Doug Jones has a decades-long record of
> public service. Getting elected in AL was step 1. Now he needs to truly
> represent (and educate) the people of AL, those who elected him and those
> who opposed him, in a principled and fair manner. It was the Democratic
> grassroots who first embraced Jones--the Democratic leadership hung back
> and only offered support when it looked like he might win.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As we at PDA say, we have to drag the Democratic Party kicking and
> screaming toward more progressive policies. It is a long journey, full of
> setbacks, but we keep trying. Doug Jones offers an opportunity--we would be
> foolish not to take advantage of it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Deb
> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Exactly: As a “Green socialist” I may not support the Democrat
> Party, but given evil of Mr. Moore, and the Republican Party, especially
> their record of impoverishment of the people in Alabama. It’s time for a
> change, Democrat candidate Doug Jones, has an opportunity to do something
> for that state and his constituents, lets see if he is up to the task. As I
> have said previously, he prosecuted the KKK successfully in the 70’s for
> the crimes they committed in the sixties, that everyone else allowed them
> to walk free.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> According to JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Doug Jones’ victory marks the first
> time in 25 years that a Democrat has won a U.S. Senate race in Alabama.
> Tuesday’s special election was highly controversial, pitting Doug Jones
> against Roy Moore, an accused pedophile with a long history of racism,
> sexism, homophobia and Islamophobia.
> >>>>>>> AMY GOODMAN: Tuesday’s vote was highly divided by race and gender,
> with African-American voters, particularly women, largely responsible for
> defeating Roy Moore. Overall, 96 percent of African-American voters voted
> for Doug Jones, with a staggering 98 percent of all black women voting for
> Jones. In contrast, nearly 70 percent of white voters voted for Roy Moore.
> A full 63 percent of white women voted for Moore, despite Moore being
> accused by multiple women of sexually harassing or assaulting them when
> they were teenagers, one as young as 14. Democratic strategist Symone
> Sanders, who served as Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders’ press secretary
> during his presidential campaign, said, quote, “Doug Jones would not have
> won today without the turnout we saw from African-American voters. … Black
> women have been absolutely clear in their support for Democratic policies
> and Democratic candidates. It’s high time for Democrats to invest in that
> effort,” unquote.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 09:15, Debra Schrishuhn <
> deb.pdamerica at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Karen
> >>>>>>>> I agree with you. It is definitely a victory to elect a moderate
> Democrat who is a decent man and citizen over a lecherous, bigoted
> Republican who totally disrespects the rule of law.
> >>>>>>>> Deb
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 9:35 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <
> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> In the case of Alabama, it sure as hell is. A state with such
> extreme poverty, that the UN compared conditions in Alabama to that of many
> nations in sub saharan African villages.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 06:58, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/dec/14/
> inequality-is-not-inevitable-but-the-us-experiment-is-a-
> recipe-for-divergence
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> It’s not a victory to elect Democrats instead of Republicans.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to
> strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively
> debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and
> dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking
> going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being
> reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” [Chomsky]
> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Peace-discuss mailing list
> > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>
>
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From jbw292002 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 00:32:43 2017
From: jbw292002 at gmail.com (John W.)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 18:32:43 -0600
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss]  What we're up against
In-Reply-To: <7347E5C3-8497-46C2-A6E9-559A1525E43E@gmail.com>
References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB1677E4CCA04D534EB90CB6F8A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB16775AD2AD8CA4BB3878A646A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <C13F745D-8037-4352-BA4F-F4018794CF32@gmail.com>
 <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu>
 <B5C82FE1-71D2-4431-AAA1-6E45DF41B1DC@gmail.com>
 <CAPnrEOXS-zsH9e2ULTtvo0tSdwPxiE3sZZUT+Enu7SOBWEBtVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu>
 <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com>
 <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu>
 <2ECC75BA-4204-45D1-8953-06116E9D50FD@gmail.com>
 <CAPnrEOX5+-doc23hdNYBd8UoDooMKnQUfN6N=besOxWUy7CzJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7347E5C3-8497-46C2-A6E9-559A1525E43E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPnrEOUGQw0THhZJRSycFqUru6CbYAmyKrS7syaGnptu5WNfDA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
wrote:

Would this strike you as a reasonable defense of WWII in Europe?
>
> “…German war-making antedates Hitler, and Roosevelt, and indeed the birth
> of modern Germany. War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic
> of human nature.  German imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much.
> It's a continuum.  And imperialism in general characterizes every
> militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states.  Even
> earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.”
>
> My question is not rhetorical. See Nicholson Baker, "Human Smoke: The
> Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization” (2008).
>
> —CGE
>

There's rarely a defense for war, and never for imperialism.  But German
imperialism and the notion that Germans were somehow a superior "race"
certainly predated Hitler.  He didn't invent it; he merely carried it a
step further.

What has been much more surprising is how Germany has reinvented itself in
such a progressive way since World War II.  But don't hold your breath.
Neo-Nazism lurks just barely beneath the surface in Germany, just as it
does in America.  The pendulum will swing again, and man's brute nature
will reassert itself.





> On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:08 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that
>> deploring Trump’s character  is not the way.
>>
>> The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of
>> war and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat
>> administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as
>> a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies.
>>
>> He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and
>> that was enough to terrify the neocons.
>>
>> Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points
>> that out clearly.
>>
>> Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what
>> remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war
>> ‘center’ …  the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into
>> supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…"
>>
>> That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US
>> war-making is. —CGE
>>
>
>
> Except that U.S. war-making antedates tRump, and Coolidge, and indeed the
> birth of the Republic.  :-/  War-making is a permanent and immutable
> characteristic of human nature.  U.S. imperialism is a bit more recent, but
> not much.  It's a continuum.  And imperialism in general characterizes
> every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states.  Even
> earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.
>
>
>
>
>
>> > On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <
>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the
>> point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies
>> rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more
>> generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the
>> rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must
>> go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong,
>> address to a Sanctuary audience. .
>> >
>> > —mkb
>> >
>> >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise
>> >>
>> >> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their
>> narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama
>> yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been
>> ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t
>> care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how
>> this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever
>> moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like
>> to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics
>> that this is a part of.
>> >>
>> >> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I
>> don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form,
>> nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many
>> legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By
>> anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult
>> which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and
>> at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a
>> deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left
>> into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”.
>> >>
>> >> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general
>> “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game
>> both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations.
>> Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the
>> most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones
>> campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still
>> viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This
>> extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator
>> who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help
>> move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in
>> self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore.
>> >>
>> >> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a
>> much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that
>> Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and
>> (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the
>> political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and
>> agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an
>> imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for
>> their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn.
>> >>
>> >> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists
>> telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to
>> impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t
>> and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit,
>> charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they
>> “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third
>> party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand
>> a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When
>> it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the
>> Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they
>> “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward
>> economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But
>> Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country
>> further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as
>> long as it continues to work.
>> >>
>> >> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way
>> it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When
>> this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just
>> like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last
>> one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd
>> the left into the center, just like they’re doing now.
>> >>
>> >> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that
>> progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party
>> beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment
>> and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this
>> simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore
>> up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which
>> Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which
>> only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media
>> influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force.
>> >>
>> >> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US
>> politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do
>> isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to
>> walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at
>> the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and
>> you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves
>> all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into
>> conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your
>> minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead.
>> >>
>> >> --– Caitlin Johnstone <medium.com>
>>
>
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From brussel at illinois.edu  Sun Dec 17 01:05:33 2017
From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 01:05:33 +0000
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss]  What we're up against
In-Reply-To: <CAPnrEOUGQw0THhZJRSycFqUru6CbYAmyKrS7syaGnptu5WNfDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB1677E4CCA04D534EB90CB6F8A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB16775AD2AD8CA4BB3878A646A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <C13F745D-8037-4352-BA4F-F4018794CF32@gmail.com>
 <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu>
 <B5C82FE1-71D2-4431-AAA1-6E45DF41B1DC@gmail.com>
 <CAPnrEOXS-zsH9e2ULTtvo0tSdwPxiE3sZZUT+Enu7SOBWEBtVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu>
 <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com>
 <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu>
 <2ECC75BA-4204-45D1-8953-06116E9D50FD@gmail.com>
 <CAPnrEOX5+-doc23hdNYBd8UoDooMKnQUfN6N=besOxWUy7CzJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7347E5C3-8497-46C2-A6E9-559A1525E43E@gmail.com>
 <CAPnrEOUGQw0THhZJRSycFqUru6CbYAmyKrS7syaGnptu5WNfDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7ED0A5D4-0004-4BC4-9EFE-711D28B0CA4B@illinois.edu>

Simply a comment: Down with imperialism!! Or do we need a multi-imperial MAD world system in the name of stability. How about a new empowered better UN?

Less facetiously, concerning Trump: Two primary global human concerns, as emphasized by Chomsky, are nuclear war and human induced climate warming. On both, Trump has the power to do unparalleld damage, as he has done by withdrawing from the Paris climate pact and encouraging the greater use of fossil fuels here, and moreover, he has the ability(??) to press the buttons starting a nuclear war. Those issues, chief among others, are not to be ignored, au contraire!. This is not to say that a Dem or Publican leader could not do the same if in power.

On Dec 16, 2017, at 6:32 PM, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com<mailto:jbw292002 at gmail.com>> wrote:


On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com<mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com>> wrote:

Would this strike you as a reasonable defense of WWII in Europe?

“…German war-making antedates Hitler, and Roosevelt, and indeed the birth of modern Germany. War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature.  German imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much.  It's a continuum.  And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states.  Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.”

My question is not rhetorical. See Nicholson Baker, "Human Smoke: The Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization” (2008).

—CGE

There's rarely a defense for war, and never for imperialism.  But German imperialism and the notion that Germans were somehow a superior "race" certainly predated Hitler.  He didn't invent it; he merely carried it a step further.

What has been much more surprising is how Germany has reinvented itself in such a progressive way since World War II.  But don't hold your breath.  Neo-Nazism lurks just barely beneath the surface in Germany, just as it does in America.  The pendulum will swing again, and man's brute nature will reassert itself.




On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:08 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:


On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com<mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com>> wrote:

How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that deploring Trump’s character  is not the way.

The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of war and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies.

He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and that was enough to terrify the neocons.

Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points that out clearly.

Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war ‘center’ …  the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…"

That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US war-making is. —CGE


Except that U.S. war-making antedates tRump, and Coolidge, and indeed the birth of the Republic.  :-/  War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature.  U.S. imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much.  It's a continuum.  And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states.  Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.




> On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
>
> Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong, address to a Sanctuary audience. .
>
> —mkb
>
>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com<mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise
>>
>> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of.
>>
>> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”.
>>
>> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore.
>>
>> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn.
>>
>> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work.
>>
>> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now.
>>
>> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force.
>>
>> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead.
>>
>> --– Caitlin Johnstone <medium.com<http://medium.com/>>

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From davegreen84 at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 17 07:03:51 2017
From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 07:03:51 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss]  What we're up against
In-Reply-To: <CAD1D76C-8C21-4E52-94AA-97415FFC1317@gmail.com>
References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com>
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 Regarding one of the names mentioned at the bottom of the Baker interview: I recall a Masterpiece Theater series on Vera Brittain's A Testament of Youth (regarding World War I) in 1980; I have not seen the 2014 movie of the same name.
>From Wikipedia:
She was a practical pacifist in the sense that she helped the war effort by working as a fire warden and by travelling around the country raising funds for the Peace Pledge Union's food relief campaign. She was vilified for speaking out against saturation bombing of German cities through her 1944 booklet Massacre by Bombing. In 1945, the Nazis' Black Book of nearly 3,000 people to be immediately arrested in Britain after a German invasion was shown to include her name.[5]

>From the 1930s onwards, Brittain was a regular contributor to the pacifist magazine Peace News. She eventually became a member of the magazine's editorial board and during the 1950s and 1960s was "writing articles against apartheid and colonialism and in favour of nuclear disarmament".[6]

In November 1966, she suffered a fall in a badly lit London street en route to a speaking engagement. She attended the engagement, but afterwards found she had suffered a fractured left arm and broken little finger of her right hand. These injuries began a physical decline in which her mind became more confused and withdrawn.[7]

Vera Brittain never fully got over the death in June 1918 of her beloved brother, Edward. She died in Wimbledon on 29 March 1970, aged 76. Her will requested that her ashes be scattered on Edward's grave on the Asiago Plateau in Italy – "...for nearly 50 years much of my heart has been in that Italian village cemetery"[8]— and her daughter honoured this request in September 1970.[9]


    On ‎Saturday‎, ‎December‎ ‎16‎, ‎2017‎ ‎07‎:‎53‎:‎47‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:  
 
 <wagingnonviolence.org>
Why Nicholson Baker is a pacifist

Anyone who makes even a modest habit of speaking out against war in public soon runs up against the inevitable, supposedly unanswerable question: What about World War II? (We have a whole category devoted to it.) It’s meant to be the ultimate stumper. This was the “good war,” wasn’t it, the war waged by the “greatest generation” against the evil incarnate of Hitler and imperial Japan? There was simply no other choice before the forces of goodness and truth but to leap into the single most deadly undertaking in all of human history. Right?

That won’t work if you’re talking to Nicholson Baker. In an extraordinary cover story in this month’s issue of Harper’s Magazine, “Why I’m a Pacifist: The Dangerous Myth of the Good War,”  Baker explains how learning about World War II was actually a big part of what made him a pacifist in the first place. “In fact,” he writes,

the more I learn about the war, the more I understand that the pacifists were the only ones, during a time of catastrophic violence, who repeatedly put forward proposals that had any chance of saving a threatened people. They weren’t naïve, they weren’t unrealistic—they were psychologically acute realists.

His thinking began drifting this way during the Gulf War, and continued to evolve through the sequence of American military operations since. In the Balkans, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and in talk about bombing Iran, he noticed that World War II kept coming up. It kept being used to justify one war after another. Every new enemy only had to be painted as another Hitler to ensure public support.

By 2008, Baker published Human Smoke, a book that collects documents, newspaper reports, and notable utterances during the lead-up to World War II, revealing how determined the Allied leaders were to fight at any cost. But, because of its form, we don’t get much of his own voice in that book. “Why I’m a Pacifist” is a chance to hear more directly from Baker himself about how he came to the conclusions that he did about the war.

I was so thrilled with the essay that the moment I put it down I wanted more, so I wrote to Baker with some questions about what he’d said. Our exchange was as follows:

WNV: Why did you decide to write Human Smoke the way you did, and why now write about World War II again as you do in Harper’s?

NB: Human Smoke deals atomistically with the beginnings of the war because I thought that was a good way of conveying the confusion and sadness of what was going on. You have to pause and think moment by moment in order to feel the gradual disintegration of civil restraint. The book stopped at the end of 1941. The Harper’s piece mostly concentrates on events from 1942 on, and it’s an effort to take up one big question: Were the pacifists right in calling for an immediate negotiated peace?

WNV: Why do you say at the outset of the essay that you don’t expect most people to be persuaded? Is pacifism really such a lost cause?

NB: No, pacifism isn’t a lost cause—in fact, most people, even generals and headbanging bar brawlers, act peaceably most of the time, or we’d get nothing done. “I’m not going to kill you” is basic to all cooperation. But during wars, pacifists are often in the minority and their arguments (so I’ve found!) make people really mad. Over time, these same people may and often do change their thinking, but it isn’t going to happen all at once. An inductive “nonviolent” approach to argumentation sometimes helps.

WNV: What do you think American pacifists can do now, or should have done, to stop wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Libya?

NB: American pacifists made heroic efforts to end those wars, using every channel available. They deserve our thanks. Afterward, when more people acknowledge that a military attack was a mistake, it helps to go back and see who really understood what was going on. I find it incredibly moving to see how right they were. Being able to stop a war isn’t the only reason for protesting a war. You may fail, but you still want to get it on record that there was an obvious better way as it was happening. The objection to any war has to be steady and constant, and one way of objecting is to re-examine historical touchstones. I wrote Human Smoke and “Why I’m a Pacifist” to recall, as others have, that the war resisters of World War II offered paths out of the horror at the time. Their steadiness and belief in reconciliation can help us now. We need new heroes. I’d rather think about Jessie Hughan, Abe Kaufman, Dorothy Day, Rabbi Cronbach, or Vera Brittain than Winston Churchill.

WNV: What business does a novelist have to write on matters of war and peace anyway?

NB: Tell that to Tolstoy.

—.


On Dec 16, 2017, at 6:32 PM, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com> wrote:

Would this strike you as a reasonable defense of WWII in Europe?
“…German war-making antedates Hitler, and Roosevelt, and indeed the birth of modern Germany. War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature.  German imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much.  It's a continuum.  And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states.  Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.”
My question is not rhetorical. See Nicholson Baker, "Human Smoke: The Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization” (2008). —CGE

There's rarely a defense for war, and never for imperialism.  But German imperialism and the notion that Germans were somehow a superior "race" certainly predated Hitler.  He didn't invent it; he merely carried it a step further.
What has been much more surprising is how Germany has reinvented itself in such a progressive way since World War II.  But don't hold your breath.  Neo-Nazism lurks just barely beneath the surface in Germany, just as it does in America.  The pendulum will swing again, and man's brute nature will reassert itself.


 

On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:08 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana. net> wrote:

On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com> wrote:

How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that deploring Trump’s character  is not the way.

The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of war and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies.

He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and that was enough to terrify the neocons.

Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points that out clearly.

Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war ‘center’ …  the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…"

That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US war-making is. —CGE



Except that U.S. war-making antedates tRump, and Coolidge, and indeed the birth of the Republic.  :-/  War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature.  U.S. imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much.  It's a continuum.  And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states.  Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.


 
> On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana. net> wrote:
>
> Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong, address to a Sanctuary audience. .
>
> —mkb
>
>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise
>>
>> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of.
>>
>> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”.
>>
>> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore.
>>
>> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn.
>>
>> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work.
>>
>> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now.
>>
>> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force.
>>
>> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead.
>>
>> --– Caitlin Johnstone <medium.com>




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From bill.strutz at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 07:38:00 2017
From: bill.strutz at gmail.com (Bill Strutz)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 01:38:00 -0600
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] What we're up against
In-Reply-To: <1128850730.26540.1513494231726@mail.yahoo.com>
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Please use the "peace" list properly. Some of us opted out of
"peace-discuss" because we don't want to be saturated -- so leave us out.
-- Bill

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 1:03 AM, David Green via Peace <
peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

> Regarding one of the names mentioned at the bottom of the Baker interview:
> I recall a Masterpiece Theater series on Vera Brittain's A Testament of
> Youth (regarding World War I) in 1980; I have not seen the 2014 movie of
> the same name.
>
> From Wikipedia:
>
> She was a practical pacifist in the sense that she helped the war effort
> by working as a *fire warden*
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Defence_Service> and by travelling
> around the country raising funds for the *Peace Pledge Union*
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_Pledge_Union>'s food relief
> campaign. She was vilified for speaking out against *saturation bombing*
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_bombardment> of German cities through
> her 1944 booklet *Massacre by Bombing*. In 1945, the *Nazis'*
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany> *Black Book*
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book> of nearly 3,000 people to
> be immediately arrested in Britain after a *German invasion*
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion> was shown to include
> her name.*[5]* <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vera_Brittain#cite_note-5>
>
> From the 1930s onwards, Brittain was a regular contributor to the pacifist
> magazine *Peace News <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_News>*. She
> eventually became a member of the magazine's editorial board and during the
> 1950s and 1960s was "writing articles against *apartheid*
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid> and *colonialism*
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonialism> and in favour of *nuclear
> disarmament* <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_disarmament>".*[6]*
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vera_Brittain#cite_note-6>
>
> In November 1966, she suffered a fall in a badly lit London street en
> route to a speaking engagement. She attended the engagement, but afterwards
> found she had suffered a fractured left arm and broken little finger of her
> right hand. These injuries began a physical decline in which her mind
> became more confused and withdrawn.*[7]*
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vera_Brittain#cite_note-7>
>
> Vera Brittain never fully got over the death in June 1918 of her beloved
> brother, Edward. She died in *Wimbledon*
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wimbledon,_London> on 29 March 1970, aged
> 76. Her will requested that her ashes be scattered on Edward's grave on the
> *Asiago* <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiago> Plateau in Italy –
> "...for nearly 50 years much of my heart has been in that Italian village
> cemetery"*[8]* <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vera_Brittain#cite_note-8>—
> and her daughter honoured this request in September 1970.*[9]*
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vera_Brittain#cite_note-9>
>
>
> On ‎Saturday‎, ‎December‎ ‎16‎, ‎2017‎ ‎07‎:‎53‎:‎47‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, C G
> Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
>
> <wagingnonviolence.org>
> Why Nicholson Baker is a pacifist
>
> Anyone who makes even a modest habit of speaking out against war in
> public soon runs up against the inevitable, supposedly unanswerable
> question: What about World War II? (We have a whole category devoted to
> it.) It’s meant to be the ultimate stumper. This was the “good war,”
> wasn’t it, the war waged by the “greatest generation” against the
> evil incarnate of Hitler and imperial Japan? There was simply no other
> choice before the forces of goodness and truth but to leap into the
> single most deadly undertaking in all of human history. Right?
>
> That won’t work if you’re talking to Nicholson Baker. In an extraordinary
> cover story in this month’s issue of Harper’s Magazine, “Why I’m a
> Pacifist: The Dangerous Myth of the Good War,”  Baker explains how learning
> about World War II was actually a big part of what made him a pacifist in
> the first place. “In fact,” he writes,
>
> the more I learn about the war, the more I understand that the pacifists
> were the only ones, during a time of catastrophic violence, who repeatedly
> put forward proposals that had any chance of saving a threatened people.
> They weren’t naïve, they weren’t unrealistic—they were psychologically
> acute realists.
>
> His thinking began drifting this way during the Gulf War, and continued to
> evolve through the sequence of American military operations since. In the
> Balkans, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and in talk about bombing Iran, he
> noticed that World War II kept coming up. It kept being used to justify one
> war after another. Every new enemy only had to be painted as another Hitler
> to ensure public support.
>
> By 2008, Baker published Human Smoke, a book that collects documents,
> newspaper reports, and notable utterances during the lead-up to World War
> II, revealing how determined the Allied leaders were to fight at any cost.
> But, because of its form, we don’t get much of his own voice in that book.
> “Why I’m a Pacifist” is a chance to hear more directly from Baker himself
> about how he came to the conclusions that he did about the war.
>
> I was so thrilled with the essay that the moment I put it down I wanted
> more, so I wrote to Baker with some questions about what he’d said. Our
> exchange was as follows:
>
> WNV: Why did you decide to write Human Smoke the way you did, and why now
> write about World War II again as you do in Harper’s?
>
> NB: Human Smoke deals atomistically with the beginnings of the war because
> I thought that was a good way of conveying the confusion and sadness of
> what was going on. You have to pause and think moment by moment in order to
> feel the gradual disintegration of civil restraint. The book stopped at the
> end of 1941. The Harper’s piece mostly concentrates on events from 1942
> on, and it’s an effort to take up one big question: Were the pacifists
> right in calling for an immediate negotiated peace?
>
> WNV: Why do you say at the outset of the essay that you don’t expect most
> people to be persuaded? Is pacifism really such a lost cause?
>
> NB: No, pacifism isn’t a lost cause—in fact, most people, even generals
> and headbanging bar brawlers, act peaceably most of the time, or we’d
> get nothing done. “I’m not going to kill you” is basic to all
> cooperation. But during wars, pacifists are often in the minority and their
> arguments (so I’ve found!) make people really mad. Over time, these
> same people may and often do change their thinking, but it isn’t going to
> happen all at once. An inductive “nonviolent” approach to argumentation
> sometimes helps.
>
> WNV: What do you think American pacifists can do now, or should have done,
> to stop wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Libya?
>
> NB: American pacifists made heroic efforts to end those wars, using every
> channel available. They deserve our thanks. Afterward, when more people
> acknowledge that a military attack was a mistake, it helps to go back and
> see who really understood what was going on. I find it incredibly moving to
> see how right they were. Being able to stop a war isn’t the only reason for
> protesting a war. You may fail, but you still want to get it on record that
> there was an obvious better way as it was happening. The objection to any
> war has to be steady and constant, and one way of objecting is to
> re-examine historical touchstones. I wrote Human Smoke and “Why I’m
> a Pacifist” to recall, as others have, that the war resisters of World
> War II offered paths out of the horror at the time. Their steadiness
> and belief in reconciliation can help us now. We need new heroes. I’d
> rather think about Jessie Hughan, Abe Kaufman, Dorothy Day, Rabbi Cronbach,
> or Vera Brittain than Winston Churchill.
>
> WNV: What business does a novelist have to write on matters of war and
> peace anyway?
>
> NB: Tell that to Tolstoy.
>
> —.
>
> On Dec 16, 2017, at 6:32 PM, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Would this strike you as a reasonable defense of WWII in Europe?
>
> “…German war-making antedates Hitler, and Roosevelt, and indeed the birth
> of modern Germany. War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic
> of human nature.  German imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much.
> It's a continuum.  And imperialism in general characterizes every
> militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states.  Even
> earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.”
>
> My question is not rhetorical. See Nicholson Baker, "Human Smoke: The
> Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization” (2008).
>
> —CGE
>
>
> There's rarely a defense for war, and never for imperialism.  But German
> imperialism and the notion that Germans were somehow a superior "race"
> certainly predated Hitler.  He didn't invent it; he merely carried it a
> step further.
>
> What has been much more surprising is how Germany has reinvented itself in
> such a progressive way since World War II.  But don't hold your breath.
> Neo-Nazism lurks just barely beneath the surface in Germany, just as it
> does in America.  The pendulum will swing again, and man's brute nature
> will reassert itself.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:08 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.
> net <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that
> deploring Trump’s character  is not the way.
>
> The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of war
> and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat
> administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as
> a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies.
>
> He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and
> that was enough to terrify the neocons.
>
> Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points that
> out clearly.
>
> Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what
> remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war
> ‘center’ …  the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into
> supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…"
>
> That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US
> war-making is. —CGE
>
>
>
> Except that U.S. war-making antedates tRump, and Coolidge, and indeed the
> birth of the Republic.  :-/  War-making is a permanent and immutable
> characteristic of human nature.  U.S. imperialism is a bit more recent, but
> not much.  It's a continuum.  And imperialism in general characterizes
> every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states.  Even
> earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.
> net <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
> >
> > Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the
> point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies
> rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more
> generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the
> rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must
> go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong,
> address to a Sanctuary audience. .
> >
> > —mkb
> >
> >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise
> >>
> >> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their
> narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama
> yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been
> ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t
> care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how
> this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever
> moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like
> to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics
> that this is a part of.
> >>
> >> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I
> don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form,
> nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many
> legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By
> anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult
> which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and
> at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a
> deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left
> into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”.
> >>
> >> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general
> “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game
> both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations.
> Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the
> most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones
> campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still
> viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This
> extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator
> who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help
> move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in
> self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore.
> >>
> >> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a
> much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that
> Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and
> (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the
> political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and
> agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an
> imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for
> their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn.
> >>
> >> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists
> telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to
> impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t
> and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit,
> charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they
> “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third
> party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand
> a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When
> it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the
> Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they
> “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward
> economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But
> Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country
> further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as
> long as it continues to work.
> >>
> >> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way
> it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When
> this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just
> like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last
> one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd
> the left into the center, just like they’re doing now.
> >>
> >> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that
> progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party
> beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment
> and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this
> simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore
> up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which
> Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which
> only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media
> influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force.
> >>
> >> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US
> politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do
> isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to
> walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at
> the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and
> you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves
> all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into
> conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your
> minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead.
> >>
> >> --– Caitlin Johnstone <medium.com>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace mailing list
> Peace at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>
>


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*My name is a complete sentence*
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From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 09:57:05 2017
From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 03:57:05 -0600
Subject: [Peace] Fwd: Food Stamps Disrupted for holidays--rapid response
	needed
References: <688EB2C3-4198-4F4F-827C-596885350D84@pdamerica.org>
Message-ID: <F8E4F085-13CC-476C-A036-C950AE41A5B6@gmail.com>

Folks, 
This is a long email, but the gist is that the 
Rauner Administration is allowing thousands of Illinoisans to lose access to SNAP (food stamps) because of technical problems and bureaucratic negligence. Call the governor's office Monday and demand action to restore SNAP benefits. 
Thanks
Deb

Sent from my iPhone

Begin forwarded message:

> From: deb at pdamerica.org
> Date: December 17, 2017 at 3:51:17 AM CST
> To: Debra Schrishuhn <deb.pdamerica at gmail.com>
> Subject: Fwd: Food Stamps Disrupted for holidays
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
>> From: Fran Tobin, Alliance for Community Services <info at Allianceforcommunityservices.org>
>> Date: December 16, 2017 at 1:15:00 PM CST
>> To: Debra <deb at pdamerica.org>
>> Subject: Food Stamps Disrupted for holidays
>> Reply-To: Fran Tobin, Alliance for Community Services <info at Allianceforcommunityservices.org>
>> 
>> 
>> Did you see the news coverage of the threat we exposed?
>> Can you chip in to help this effort?
>> View this email in your browser
>> Tens of Thousands Losing Food Stamps
>> (yes, wrongfully ... yes, again!)
>> The Rauner administration's new computer system is causing tens of thousands of people across Illinois to wrongfully lose food stamp benefits (aka SNAP or Link) -- yep, just in time for the holidays.
>> 
>> Front-line DHS workers, union members that are part of the Alliance for Community Services, were the first to sound the alarm, as the new Integrated Eligibility System (IES):
>> * constantly crashed,
>> * automatically canceled benefits on eligible persons
>> * caused long delays in processing and even more packed and angry waiting rooms,
>> * made it difficult for caseworkers to fix the problems
>> 
>> Alliance activists worked with NBC-5 to expose the story a couple weeks ago.  DHS management knew the nearly $200 million system, designed by private contractor Deloitte, had problems, but launched it anyway.  
>>  
>> "We took these jobs to help people, but this puts one hand tied behind our back" said AFSCME 2858 activist Brian Poncin.  Shortly after the story broke, the statewide AFSCME Council fired off a strong letter to DHS management about the problem.
>> 
>> Yesterday, the Chicago Tribune added to the story, as things are getting worse.  Even DHS admits that tens of thousands of eligible persons are not getting the food help they need.
>> 
>> On Monday, during business hours, call 847-957-7838 to tell the governor to fix the IES Mess. (note:  they will not answer, or check messages left, outside business hours)
>> 
>> There are many ways the administration is undermining the mission of public service - harming poor families, seniors, people with disabilities.  The administration is
>> * making it harder to access services, by closing/moving service offices
>> * creating bureaucratic hoops that lead to loss of food stamps
>> * limiting food stamps for most poor people in Dupage County
>> * limiting overtime for home services caregivers
>> * refusing to negotiate a fair budget or fair terms for public employees
>> * and more.
>> 
>> People that depend on these services, in alliance with the front-line public employees and caregivers, can expose the truth, can stand up and fight for dignity and decency for all.
>> 
>> Click here to help support this grassroots alliance-building
>> 
>> In Unity,
>> 
>> Francis X. Tobin,
>> On behalf of the consumer, labor, community partners of the Alliance.
>> 
>> PS:  Alliance leaders are drafting priorities for 2018.  Feel free to email your suggestions to
>> Platform at AllianceForCommunityServices.org
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Copyright © 2017 Alliance for Community Services, All rights reserved. 
>> We're keeping community services supporters and petition signers informed on what's happening. 
>> 
>> Our mailing address is: 
>> Alliance for Community Services
>> 37 S. Ashland
>> Chicago, IL 60607
>> 
>> Add us to your address book
>> 
>> 
>> Want to change how you receive these emails?
>> You can update your preferences or unsubscribe from this list. 
>> 
>> 
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From susanroseparenti at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 19:24:34 2017
From: susanroseparenti at gmail.com (Susan Parenti)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 13:24:34 -0600
Subject: [Peace] Christmas caroling this Tuesday, Dec. 19,
	6-7pm! Get your voice wet!
Message-ID: <CAKfUjSE_BO5s+e6C_P9KCtfq0n6sQiJDr+uBF5_PWFUQMppsrw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi friends who may want to sing carols—

Let’s meet at 6pm at my house on Tuesday to go caroling at nearby Crystal
Lake View, which has lots of people living in the new housing units, many
of them having had the migrant experience.

If you have a song you’d like to teach us, do so—and/or bring copies of the
words along. We’ll have one accordion, one Patch Adams singing loudly, and
then the rest of us—probably also some kids.

If you have a friend you want to bring, please do! I’ll have hot cider and
cookies (maybe also a small bottle of hooch) for when we return.

YAY!!

I’m at 122 Franklin in Urbana—the dead end street that juts in Crystal Lake
Park.

My number is 217-344-143 <217-344-1439>

-- 
*Susan Parenti*
*Educational Coordinator *

*The School for Designing a Society *www.designingasociety.net

*Like us on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/designasociety>!*
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From brussel at illinois.edu  Sun Dec 17 21:21:10 2017
From: brussel at illinois.edu (Brussel, Morton K)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 21:21:10 +0000
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss]  What we're up against
In-Reply-To: <CAD1D76C-8C21-4E52-94AA-97415FFC1317@gmail.com>
References: <6BB03FF8-A317-467E-9AF5-01A181227D16@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB1677E4CCA04D534EB90CB6F8A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <59BDE7C8-B217-425B-9F9F-7E4C0F2AC7F5@gmail.com>
 <SN1PR08MB16775AD2AD8CA4BB3878A646A30A0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <C13F745D-8037-4352-BA4F-F4018794CF32@gmail.com>
 <1B74E968-58DC-40E3-9A79-549070C27649@illinois.edu>
 <B5C82FE1-71D2-4431-AAA1-6E45DF41B1DC@gmail.com>
 <CAPnrEOXS-zsH9e2ULTtvo0tSdwPxiE3sZZUT+Enu7SOBWEBtVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0A71AD23-3B23-4015-A7BE-353285DE6B18@illinois.edu>
 <197A7E5A-0FBD-4560-B3E5-CECB161F0883@gmail.com>
 <4CE7B481-FCE6-4012-A270-063E0AFECE0F@illinois.edu>
 <2ECC75BA-4204-45D1-8953-06116E9D50FD@gmail.com>
 <CAPnrEOX5+-doc23hdNYBd8UoDooMKnQUfN6N=besOxWUy7CzJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7347E5C3-8497-46C2-A6E9-559A1525E43E@gmail.com>
 <CAPnrEOUGQw0THhZJRSycFqUru6CbYAmyKrS7syaGnptu5WNfDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD1D76C-8C21-4E52-94AA-97415FFC1317@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FCF1045C-3690-467E-BC6A-EF22A0D5B543@illinois.edu>

Another activist pacifist is the prolific David Swanson. Writings on http://davidswanson.org/

—mkb


On Dec 16, 2017, at 7:53 PM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com<mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com>> wrote:

<wagingnonviolence.org<http://wagingnonviolence.org/>>
Why Nicholson Baker is a pacifist

Anyone who makes even a modest habit of speaking out against war in public soon runs up against the inevitable, supposedly unanswerable question: What about World War II? (We have a whole category devoted to it.) It’s meant to be the ultimate stumper. This was the “good war,” wasn’t it, the war waged by the “greatest generation” against the evil incarnate of Hitler and imperial Japan? There was simply no other choice before the forces of goodness and truth but to leap into the single most deadly undertaking in all of human history. Right?

That won’t work if you’re talking to Nicholson Baker. In an extraordinary cover story in this month’s issue of Harper’s Magazine, “Why I’m a Pacifist: The Dangerous Myth of the Good War,”  Baker explains how learning about World War II was actually a big part of what made him a pacifist in the first place. “In fact,” he writes,

the more I learn about the war, the more I understand that the pacifists were the only ones, during a time of catastrophic violence, who repeatedly put forward proposals that had any chance of saving a threatened people. They weren’t naïve, they weren’t unrealistic—they were psychologically acute realists.

His thinking began drifting this way during the Gulf War, and continued to evolve through the sequence of American military operations since. In the Balkans, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and in talk about bombing Iran, he noticed that World War II kept coming up. It kept being used to justify one war after another. Every new enemy only had to be painted as another Hitler to ensure public support.

By 2008, Baker published Human Smoke, a book that collects documents, newspaper reports, and notable utterances during the lead-up to World War II, revealing how determined the Allied leaders were to fight at any cost. But, because of its form, we don’t get much of his own voice in that book. “Why I’m a Pacifist” is a chance to hear more directly from Baker himself about how he came to the conclusions that he did about the war.

I was so thrilled with the essay that the moment I put it down I wanted more, so I wrote to Baker with some questions about what he’d said. Our exchange was as follows:

WNV: Why did you decide to write Human Smoke the way you did, and why now write about World War II again as you do in Harper’s?

NB: Human Smoke deals atomistically with the beginnings of the war because I thought that was a good way of conveying the confusion and sadness of what was going on. You have to pause and think moment by moment in order to feel the gradual disintegration of civil restraint. The book stopped at the end of 1941. The Harper’s piece mostly concentrates on events from 1942 on, and it’s an effort to take up one big question: Were the pacifists right in calling for an immediate negotiated peace?

WNV: Why do you say at the outset of the essay that you don’t expect most people to be persuaded? Is pacifism really such a lost cause?

NB: No, pacifism isn’t a lost cause—in fact, most people, even generals and headbanging bar brawlers, act peaceably most of the time, or we’d get nothing done. “I’m not going to kill you” is basic to all cooperation. But during wars, pacifists are often in the minority and their arguments (so I’ve found!) make people really mad. Over time, these same people may and often do change their thinking, but it isn’t going to happen all at once. An inductive “nonviolent” approach to argumentation sometimes helps.

WNV: What do you think American pacifists can do now, or should have done, to stop wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Libya?

NB: American pacifists made heroic efforts to end those wars, using every channel available. They deserve our thanks. Afterward, when more people acknowledge that a military attack was a mistake, it helps to go back and see who really understood what was going on. I find it incredibly moving to see how right they were. Being able to stop a war isn’t the only reason for protesting a war. You may fail, but you still want to get it on record that there was an obvious better way as it was happening. The objection to any war has to be steady and constant, and one way of objecting is to re-examine historical touchstones. I wrote Human Smoke and “Why I’m a Pacifist” to recall, as others have, that the war resisters of World War II offered paths out of the horror at the time. Their steadiness and belief in reconciliation can help us now. We need new heroes. I’d rather think about Jessie Hughan, Abe Kaufman, Dorothy Day, Rabbi Cronbach, or Vera Brittain than Winston Churchill.

WNV: What business does a novelist have to write on matters of war and peace anyway?

NB: Tell that to Tolstoy.

—.

On Dec 16, 2017, at 6:32 PM, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com<mailto:jbw292002 at gmail.com>> wrote:


On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com<mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com>> wrote:

Would this strike you as a reasonable defense of WWII in Europe?

“…German war-making antedates Hitler, and Roosevelt, and indeed the birth of modern Germany. War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature.  German imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much.  It's a continuum.  And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states.  Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.”

My question is not rhetorical. See Nicholson Baker, "Human Smoke: The Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization” (2008).

—CGE

There's rarely a defense for war, and never for imperialism.  But German imperialism and the notion that Germans were somehow a superior "race" certainly predated Hitler.  He didn't invent it; he merely carried it a step further.

What has been much more surprising is how Germany has reinvented itself in such a progressive way since World War II.  But don't hold your breath.  Neo-Nazism lurks just barely beneath the surface in Germany, just as it does in America.  The pendulum will swing again, and man's brute nature will reassert itself.




On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:08 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:


On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com<mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com>> wrote:

How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that deploring Trump’s character  is not the way.

The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of war and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies.

He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and that was enough to terrify the neocons.

Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points that out clearly.

Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war ‘center’ …  the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…"

That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US war-making is. —CGE


Except that U.S. war-making antedates tRump, and Coolidge, and indeed the birth of the Republic.  :-/  War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic of human nature.  U.S. imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much.  It's a continuum.  And imperialism in general characterizes every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states.  Even earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.




> On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
>
> Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong, address to a Sanctuary audience. .
>
> —mkb
>
>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com<mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise
>>
>> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics that this is a part of.
>>
>> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form, nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”.
>>
>> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations. Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore.
>>
>> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn.
>>
>> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit, charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as long as it continues to work.
>>
>> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd the left into the center, just like they’re doing now.
>>
>> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force.
>>
>> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead.
>>
>> --– Caitlin Johnstone <medium.com<http://medium.com/>>


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From stuartnlevy at gmail.com  Mon Dec 18 00:58:09 2017
From: stuartnlevy at gmail.com (Stuart Levy)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 18:58:09 -0600
Subject: [Peace] last minute anti-tax-scam gathering in Davis' office --
	noon Monday?
Message-ID: <ecfa834e-5046-8374-cc46-0bf6a44bf00d@gmail.com>

I want to propose an action which may well bear no fruit, but so what.

I'm ticked off at the reverse Robin Hood tax scam which our US Rep Davis
is surely going to vote for, probably on Tuesday.

Proposal: whoever can, gather at Davis' office - say at *noon on Monday,
tomorrow the 18th, *unless someone has a better suggestion.*
*
Previous gatherings have mostly been rallies outside on the parking
lot.   Instead I propose to pack the office, as people did for the
health care bill.   About ten people can squeeze in, and if more come
they can be in the hallway.   I'm not proposing a sit-in, not risking
arrest, just an uncomfortably large number of people coming to say we
want Davis to vote Hell No and not sell out our future for the sake of
wealthy people and corporate profits, and stick around for maybe a half
hour or an hour or until they throw us out.

Problem: I may well be unable to be there myself (expecting a
yet-to-be-scheduled work meeting, which I'll be unable to skip, may get
scheduled for that hour).  

There's lots of source material, but here's a middle-of-the-road article
from Bloomberg of all places saying, basically, that corporate America
doesn't need the money, and naming things that we do need -- "The
largest economic challenges we face include a skills crisis that our
public schools are not addressing, crumbling infrastructure that
imperils our global competitiveness, wage stagnation coupled with
growing wealth inequality, and rising deficits that will worsen as more
baby boomers retire.  The tax bill does nothing to address these
challenges. In fact, it makes each of them worse."

  
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-15/this-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder

Who would be in?
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From kmedina67 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 18 02:24:08 2017
From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (Karen Medina)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 20:24:08 -0600
Subject: [Peace] last minute anti-tax-scam gathering in Davis' office --
 noon Monday?
In-Reply-To: <ecfa834e-5046-8374-cc46-0bf6a44bf00d@gmail.com>
References: <ecfa834e-5046-8374-cc46-0bf6a44bf00d@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+0uwibXk74tQLLOcNnm4gMYfF7v+SbTGU_a_r5v_KLwJJD64w@mail.gmail.com>

I am in.
What: an "I'm ticked off at the reverse Robin Hood tax scam which our
US Rep Davis is surely going to vote for" event
When: 12noon on Monday, tomorrow the 18th of December, 2017
Where: Rodney Davis' Champaign office / 2004 Fox Dr, Champaign, IL 61820

If someone saved the signs from Saturday's event, bring them along.

If someone wants to bring an appropriate carol to sing, then bring it.
Personally, I am thinking of "You're a mean one, Mr. Davis"

-karen medina

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 6:58 PM, Stuart Levy via Peace
<peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> I want to propose an action which may well bear no fruit, but so what.
>
> I'm ticked off at the reverse Robin Hood tax scam which our US Rep Davis is
> surely going to vote for, probably on Tuesday.
>
> Proposal: whoever can, gather at Davis' office - say at noon on Monday,
> tomorrow the 18th, unless someone has a better suggestion.
>
> Previous gatherings have mostly been rallies outside on the parking lot.
> Instead I propose to pack the office, as people did for the health care
> bill.   About ten people can squeeze in, and if more come they can be in the
> hallway.   I'm not proposing a sit-in, not risking arrest, just an
> uncomfortably large number of people coming to say we want Davis to vote
> Hell No and not sell out our future for the sake of wealthy people and
> corporate profits, and stick around for maybe a half hour or an hour or
> until they throw us out.
>
> Problem: I may well be unable to be there myself (expecting a
> yet-to-be-scheduled work meeting, which I'll be unable to skip, may get
> scheduled for that hour).
>
> There's lots of source material, but here's a middle-of-the-road article
> from Bloomberg of all places saying, basically, that corporate America
> doesn't need the money, and naming things that we do need -- "The largest
> economic challenges we face include a skills crisis that our public schools
> are not addressing, crumbling infrastructure that imperils our global
> competitiveness, wage stagnation coupled with growing wealth inequality, and
> rising deficits that will worsen as more baby boomers retire.  The tax bill
> does nothing to address these challenges. In fact, it makes each of them
> worse."
>
>
> https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-15/this-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder
>
> Who would be in?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace mailing list
> Peace at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>



-- 
-- karen medina
"The really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." - Mark Twain

From davegreen84 at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 18 03:19:47 2017
From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 03:19:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] last minute anti-tax-scam gathering in
	Davis'	office -- noon Monday?
In-Reply-To: <ecfa834e-5046-8374-cc46-0bf6a44bf00d@gmail.com>
References: <ecfa834e-5046-8374-cc46-0bf6a44bf00d@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1485846380.330031.1513567187619@mail.yahoo.com>

 I will attend.

    On ‎Sunday‎, ‎December‎ ‎17‎, ‎2017‎ ‎06‎:‎59‎:‎05‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:  
 
   I want to propose an action which may well bear no fruit, but so what.
 
 I'm ticked off at the reverse Robin Hood tax scam which our US Rep Davis is surely going to vote for, probably on Tuesday.
 
 Proposal: whoever can, gather at Davis' office - say at noon on Monday, tomorrow the 18th, unless someone has a better suggestion.
 
 Previous gatherings have mostly been rallies outside on the parking lot.   Instead I propose to pack the office, as people did for the health care bill.   About ten people can squeeze in, and if more come they can be in the hallway.   I'm not proposing a sit-in, not risking arrest, just an uncomfortably large number of people coming to say we want Davis to vote Hell No and not sell out our future for  the sake of wealthy people and corporate profits, and stick around for maybe a half hour or an hour or until they throw us out.
 
 Problem: I may well be unable to be there myself (expecting a yet-to-be-scheduled work meeting, which I'll be unable to skip, may get scheduled for that hour).   
 
 There's lots of source material, but here's a middle-of-the-road article from Bloomberg of all places saying, basically, that corporate America doesn't need the money, and naming things that we do need -- "The largest economic challenges we face include a skills crisis that our public schools are not addressing, crumbling infrastructure that imperils our global competitiveness, wage stagnation coupled with growing wealth inequality, and rising deficits that will worsen as more baby boomers retire.  The tax bill does nothing to address these challenges. In fact, it makes each of them worse."
 
    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-15/this-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder
 
 Who would be in?
 _______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
  
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 18 03:50:14 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 03:50:14 +0000
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] last minute anti-tax-scam gathering in
	Davis'	office -- noon Monday?
In-Reply-To: <1485846380.330031.1513567187619@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <ecfa834e-5046-8374-cc46-0bf6a44bf00d@gmail.com>
 <1485846380.330031.1513567187619@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB1677B8EEC1EF0AA54CA6E503A30E0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

I’ll try, have a dental appt. in the morning, but will try.

On Dec 17, 2017, at 19:19, David Green via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:

I will attend.

On ‎Sunday‎, ‎December‎ ‎17‎, ‎2017‎ ‎06‎:‎59‎:‎05‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:


I want to propose an action which may well bear no fruit, but so what.

I'm ticked off at the reverse Robin Hood tax scam which our US Rep Davis is surely going to vote for, probably on Tuesday.

Proposal: whoever can, gather at Davis' office - say at noon on Monday, tomorrow the 18th, unless someone has a better suggestion.

Previous gatherings have mostly been rallies outside on the parking lot.   Instead I propose to pack the office, as people did for the health care bill.   About ten people can squeeze in, and if more come they can be in the hallway.   I'm not proposing a sit-in, not risking arrest, just an uncomfortably large number of people coming to say we want Davis to vote Hell No and not sell out our future for the sake of wealthy people and corporate profits, and stick around for maybe a half hour or an hour or until they throw us out.

Problem: I may well be unable to be there myself (expecting a yet-to-be-scheduled work meeting, which I'll be unable to skip, may get scheduled for that hour).

There's lots of source material, but here's a middle-of-the-road article from Bloomberg of all places saying, basically, that corporate America doesn't need the money, and naming things that we do need -- "The largest economic challenges we face include a skills crisis that our public schools are not addressing, crumbling infrastructure that imperils our global competitiveness, wage stagnation coupled with growing wealth inequality, and rising deficits that will worsen as more baby boomers retire.  The tax bill does nothing to address these challenges. In fact, it makes each of them worse."

   https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-15/this-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fview%2Farticles%2F2017-12-15%2Fthis-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder&data=02%7C01%7C%7C547330e08f1f4e626b7808d545c64216%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636491640170983828&sdata=bJN5E7NAtXNz3y5jSAu8NH95a%2Bia7qDr2mC66MBK6QY%3D&reserved=0>

Who would be in?
_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C547330e08f1f4e626b7808d545c64216%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636491640170983828&sdata=T0g%2B%2FUauySygT1MldUjsI1z4H3Yi9%2Bk5vU%2Fnjoe%2FsWQ%3D&reserved=0>
_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C547330e08f1f4e626b7808d545c64216%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636491640170983828&sdata=T0g%2B%2FUauySygT1MldUjsI1z4H3Yi9%2Bk5vU%2Fnjoe%2FsWQ%3D&reserved=0

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From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com  Mon Dec 18 10:23:59 2017
From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 04:23:59 -0600
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] last minute anti-tax-scam gathering in
 Davis' office -- noon Monday?
In-Reply-To: <SN1PR08MB1677B8EEC1EF0AA54CA6E503A30E0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
References: <ecfa834e-5046-8374-cc46-0bf6a44bf00d@gmail.com>
 <1485846380.330031.1513567187619@mail.yahoo.com>
 <SN1PR08MB1677B8EEC1EF0AA54CA6E503A30E0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CANDTtd=Gk3n=QivsEj-uEOgt9q9fOcaYo2fc-kueYZVgzu7QSg@mail.gmail.com>

I will stop by and will spread the word.
Deb

On 12/17/17, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> I’ll try, have a dental appt. in the morning, but will try.
>
> On Dec 17, 2017, at 19:19, David Green via Peace-discuss
> <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>>
> wrote:
>
> I will attend.
>
> On ‎Sunday‎, ‎December‎ ‎17‎, ‎2017‎ ‎06‎:‎59‎:‎05‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, Stuart Levy
> via Peace-discuss
> <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>>
> wrote:
>
>
> I want to propose an action which may well bear no fruit, but so what.
>
> I'm ticked off at the reverse Robin Hood tax scam which our US Rep Davis is
> surely going to vote for, probably on Tuesday.
>
> Proposal: whoever can, gather at Davis' office - say at noon on Monday,
> tomorrow the 18th, unless someone has a better suggestion.
>
> Previous gatherings have mostly been rallies outside on the parking lot.
> Instead I propose to pack the office, as people did for the health care
> bill.   About ten people can squeeze in, and if more come they can be in the
> hallway.   I'm not proposing a sit-in, not risking arrest, just an
> uncomfortably large number of people coming to say we want Davis to vote
> Hell No and not sell out our future for the sake of wealthy people and
> corporate profits, and stick around for maybe a half hour or an hour or
> until they throw us out.
>
> Problem: I may well be unable to be there myself (expecting a
> yet-to-be-scheduled work meeting, which I'll be unable to skip, may get
> scheduled for that hour).
>
> There's lots of source material, but here's a middle-of-the-road article
> from Bloomberg of all places saying, basically, that corporate America
> doesn't need the money, and naming things that we do need -- "The largest
> economic challenges we face include a skills crisis that our public schools
> are not addressing, crumbling infrastructure that imperils our global
> competitiveness, wage stagnation coupled with growing wealth inequality, and
> rising deficits that will worsen as more baby boomers retire.  The tax bill
> does nothing to address these challenges. In fact, it makes each of them
> worse."
>
>
> https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-15/this-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fview%2Farticles%2F2017-12-15%2Fthis-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder&data=02%7C01%7C%7C547330e08f1f4e626b7808d545c64216%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636491640170983828&sdata=bJN5E7NAtXNz3y5jSAu8NH95a%2Bia7qDr2mC66MBK6QY%3D&reserved=0>
>
> Who would be in?
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C547330e08f1f4e626b7808d545c64216%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636491640170983828&sdata=T0g%2B%2FUauySygT1MldUjsI1z4H3Yi9%2Bk5vU%2Fnjoe%2FsWQ%3D&reserved=0>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C547330e08f1f4e626b7808d545c64216%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636491640170983828&sdata=T0g%2B%2FUauySygT1MldUjsI1z4H3Yi9%2Bk5vU%2Fnjoe%2FsWQ%3D&reserved=0
>
>

From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com  Mon Dec 18 10:51:40 2017
From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 04:51:40 -0600
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] last minute anti-tax-scam gathering in
 Davis' office -- noon Monday?
In-Reply-To: <CANDTtd=Gk3n=QivsEj-uEOgt9q9fOcaYo2fc-kueYZVgzu7QSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa834e-5046-8374-cc46-0bf6a44bf00d@gmail.com>
 <1485846380.330031.1513567187619@mail.yahoo.com>
 <SN1PR08MB1677B8EEC1EF0AA54CA6E503A30E0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <CANDTtd=Gk3n=QivsEj-uEOgt9q9fOcaYo2fc-kueYZVgzu7QSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANDTtd=izJfBpfe5eFroPQMDBz2zpQ=Wp-s9L7Eoa_2nVDSD1A@mail.gmail.com>

Hey, what if we jam his  phone lines with a verse form "You're a mean
one,Mr. Davis"?

His DC voice mail is open right now: 202-225-2371

On 12/18/17, Debra Schrishuhn <deb.pdamerica at gmail.com> wrote:
> I will stop by and will spread the word.
> Deb
>
> On 12/17/17, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> I’ll try, have a dental appt. in the morning, but will try.
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2017, at 19:19, David Green via Peace-discuss
>> <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I will attend.
>>
>> On ‎Sunday‎, ‎December‎ ‎17‎, ‎2017‎ ‎06‎:‎59‎:‎05‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, Stuart
>> Levy
>> via Peace-discuss
>> <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I want to propose an action which may well bear no fruit, but so what.
>>
>> I'm ticked off at the reverse Robin Hood tax scam which our US Rep Davis
>> is
>> surely going to vote for, probably on Tuesday.
>>
>> Proposal: whoever can, gather at Davis' office - say at noon on Monday,
>> tomorrow the 18th, unless someone has a better suggestion.
>>
>> Previous gatherings have mostly been rallies outside on the parking lot.
>> Instead I propose to pack the office, as people did for the health care
>> bill.   About ten people can squeeze in, and if more come they can be in
>> the
>> hallway.   I'm not proposing a sit-in, not risking arrest, just an
>> uncomfortably large number of people coming to say we want Davis to vote
>> Hell No and not sell out our future for the sake of wealthy people and
>> corporate profits, and stick around for maybe a half hour or an hour or
>> until they throw us out.
>>
>> Problem: I may well be unable to be there myself (expecting a
>> yet-to-be-scheduled work meeting, which I'll be unable to skip, may get
>> scheduled for that hour).
>>
>> There's lots of source material, but here's a middle-of-the-road article
>> from Bloomberg of all places saying, basically, that corporate America
>> doesn't need the money, and naming things that we do need -- "The largest
>> economic challenges we face include a skills crisis that our public
>> schools
>> are not addressing, crumbling infrastructure that imperils our global
>> competitiveness, wage stagnation coupled with growing wealth inequality,
>> and
>> rising deficits that will worsen as more baby boomers retire.  The tax
>> bill
>> does nothing to address these challenges. In fact, it makes each of them
>> worse."
>>
>>
>> https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-15/this-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fview%2Farticles%2F2017-12-15%2Fthis-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder&data=02%7C01%7C%7C547330e08f1f4e626b7808d545c64216%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636491640170983828&sdata=bJN5E7NAtXNz3y5jSAu8NH95a%2Bia7qDr2mC66MBK6QY%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> Who would be in?
>> _______________________________________________
>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C547330e08f1f4e626b7808d545c64216%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636491640170983828&sdata=T0g%2B%2FUauySygT1MldUjsI1z4H3Yi9%2Bk5vU%2Fnjoe%2FsWQ%3D&reserved=0>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C547330e08f1f4e626b7808d545c64216%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636491640170983828&sdata=T0g%2B%2FUauySygT1MldUjsI1z4H3Yi9%2Bk5vU%2Fnjoe%2FsWQ%3D&reserved=0
>>
>>
>

From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com  Tue Dec 19 10:09:57 2017
From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn)
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 04:09:57 -0600
Subject: [Peace] coverage of imprisoned DREAMers
Message-ID: <CANDTtdn_6h8J4n74e6xVbK_P0_LuEuEBaKhStG8OGcXJ5X92og@mail.gmail.com>

Coverage of DREAMers putting their lives and futures on the line for justice:

https://www.democracynow.org/2017/12/18/headlines/eight_arrested_as_young_immigrants_hold_sit_in_protests_for_dream_act

Live Stream of Presser in DC Mon
https://www.facebook.com/seedproject/videos/1757558414546262/

Press Release
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J5xCHdRDeUqJkOT4L0owa5aRURclNsz2IhwJ2iS39MA/edit

More Vid of sit-ins that took place Mon
http://weareheretostay.org/dreamact-sitins/

CBS News Coverage, Including Reference To Wash Post Editorial
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bernie-sanders-former-press-secretary-is-among-seven-dreamers-in-prison-on-hunger-strike/

Telemundo Coverage
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q5KDAka-QLMz7YzPeUHdlftQP0c248Kp/view

Wall Street Journal
https://www.wsj.com/articles/congress-faces-crunch-time-on-spending-immigration-1513545482?mod=e2fb

From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com  Wed Dec 20 11:54:57 2017
From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn)
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 05:54:57 -0600
Subject: [Peace] Republicans supporting death of Net Neutrality
Message-ID: <CANDTtdmqyHErdp0wamQLKp5Md=wXmxm25nRWp3BPsvWERSFJFg@mail.gmail.com>

About 103 Republicans signed a letter dated 12/13/2017 praising Ajit
Pai for the FCC ruling killing Net Neutrality. John Shimkus IL-15 was
a signatory. Rodney Davis IL-13 was not a signatory. Davis was also
one of 34 Reps who signed a letter to Speaker Ryan requesting action
on DACA recipients before the end of the year--not a great letter, but
better than nothing.

All this means that Davis is feeling some pressure to move toward the
center. Call his offices--DC and Champaign-- daily. Tell him he
betrayed his constituents by voting for the tax scam, but he can
redeem himself somewhat by voting to preserve net neutrality and enact
a clean DREAM Act.

DC- 202-225-2371
Champaign- 217-403-4690

Deb

From karenaram at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 21 16:05:46 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 16:05:46 +0000
Subject: [Peace] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_Only_10_Days_Left_for_Registration_?=
 =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=94_Please_Join_Our_Conference?=
References: <ccd625b69dbee766fcef0d707.5adb4aabb5.20171221155642.05b745e8b3.7427a1d2@mail70.atl31.mcdlv.net>
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB16777D2A5BAA308E49A8882DA30D0@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>



Reply-To: No Bases List <admin at noforeignbases.org<mailto:admin at noforeignbases.org>>


ONLY 10 DAYS LEFT!

PLEASE REGISTER TO ATTEND




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Conference on U.S. Foreign Military Bases
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Fourteen prominent peace, justice and environmental organizations in the United States are collectively organizing a 3-day national conference on U.S. Foreign Military Bases on January 12-14, 2018, at the University of Baltimore, Maryland.

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From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com  Fri Dec 22 10:56:52 2017
From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 04:56:52 -0600
Subject: [Peace] one small victory this week
Message-ID: <CANDTtdkJVPrsVkeEEfar0aM3Z3zXiE7MP0i3cx=9Lm0KWDbgUw@mail.gmail.com>

>From Fran Tobin:

Food Stamps Restored for Tens of Thousands

Today, top brass at Gov. Rauner's Dept. of Human Services responded to
worker and community pressure, and announced they will restore food
stamp benefits (aka SNAP, LINK) for the tens of thousands of persons
that were wrongfully denied benefits in the past month.

The call-in campaign, and Media attention sparked by front line
workers made it happen!

Thanks to the hundreds that called the governor's office.

The wrongful terminations stem from a faulty computer system (IES)
designed by private contractor Deloitte (which has been under fire in
other states for similar problems).

But top DHS officials still claim there are no glitches in the system,
still put the blame on poor people.
One caseworker reports that the IES system crashed on him while the
DHS press conference was taking place.  If they do not admit the
problems, how can we expect them to fix them?

As we get through the holiday season and into a new year, this is only
one of the many ways that the Rauner and Trump administrations are
undermining the public good, and hurting vulnerable people and the
employees (caseworkers, home caregivers, educators) that provide
needed services.

Together, we can ensure dignity and decency for all.

In Unity,

Francis X. Tobin,
On behalf of the consumer, labor, community partners of the Alliance.

From karenaram at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 22 16:03:43 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 16:03:43 +0000
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Decry discrimination: accept
	exploitation
In-Reply-To: <DB04DF5C-9A3A-4E5F-A08E-E424C43419CA@gmail.com>
References: <DB04DF5C-9A3A-4E5F-A08E-E424C43419CA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB1677BC77E389824E2A376996A3020@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

Carl

I agree with your statement below, as well as that which the article below emphasizes:

"Lilla saw firsthand the deterioration of the relationship between the Democratic party and working-class whites in Michigan, a breakdown motivated in part by “the sense people had that there was a Democratic cultural elite that looked down on them and their religion and their family life and their traditional views”.

In an influential 1985 study of Macomb, Stan Greenberg, a pollster, argued that white rust belt voters lost faith in the Democratic party due to a perception that it advocated for other groups – black Americans, the very poor, recent immigrants, feminists – but not them.”

Where I disagree with you, is when you insist that the “rust belt folks support Trump because they are opposed to war” That is wishful thinking on your part.

Those that supported Trump as the anti-war candidate tend to be the educated republicans who oppose war, they had hope based upon some of what he said in his campaign speech. They of course were wrong just as the liberal Democrats were wrong in supporting Obama, as a peace candidate.

The American people need to stop putting faith in anything a candidate has to say and look behind the curtain of OZ, as to who is controlling the candidate. Neither Democrat or Republican Parties will allow a President to follow his own path, assuming he has one other than getting elected, given ownership by the corporate elites.


On Dec 22, 2017, at 07:44, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:

<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fcgestabrook%23&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9259019a8a154703faa208d54952fd31%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636495543131413043&sdata=eaDEMa8Q9Wo03aphchOr7jNJt5jw6Umo0EaiiMO8%2Fvg%3D&reserved=0>

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/dec/21/mark-lilla-identity-politics-liberals<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fmedia%2F2017%2Fdec%2F21%2Fmark-lilla-identity-politics-liberals&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9259019a8a154703faa208d54952fd31%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636495543131413043&sdata=7j2BCbO47RR8LW6cWF9oPjJo4QwXGK3bERd6JPNWXf4%3D&reserved=0>

"Macomb County, Michigan, Lilla’s birthplace just outside Detroit, was one of the rust belt counties that voted twice for Obama before going for Trump – a fact which complicates the progressive ‘whitelash' thesis that Trump voters were motivated by racial resentment."

The desperate attempt to blame this fact on racism and/or misogyny shows that identity politics is a cover for liberals' abandonment of class politics.

Its real source is the immiseration of the American middle class and the confiscation of their life chances, in comparison with their parents, over 40 years of accelerating growth of inequality.

Liberals decry discrimination in order not to have to talk about exploitation.

—CGE

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From moboct1 at aim.com  Sat Dec 23 15:07:42 2017
From: moboct1 at aim.com (Mildred O'brien)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 10:07:42 -0500
Subject: [Peace] Fwd: "We are far closer to actual conflict over North Korea"
In-Reply-To: <521373059c95b9c0425e383f2028d343@bounce.bluestatedigital.com>
References: <521373059c95b9c0425e383f2028d343@bounce.bluestatedigital.com>
Message-ID: <16083ea5b8f-171f-572dd@webjas-vab157.srv.aolmail.net>

Scarey words from our Illinois Senator:   We need to ponder the meaning of her second statement...

Midge O'Brien





I want you to see something Senator Tammy Duckworth said to Vox Media earlier this week:

"We are far closer to actual conflict over North Korea than the American people realize," says Sen. Tammy Duckworth (D-IL), an Iraq War veteran and Purple Heart recipient. "Everything we're doing shows a military that, in my personal opinion, has turned the corner ... the president is likely to make this decision [to attack], and we need to be ready."














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From stuartnlevy at gmail.com  Sun Dec 24 14:52:53 2017
From: stuartnlevy at gmail.com (stuartnlevy)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 08:52:53 -0600
Subject: [Peace] No AWARE meeting today 12/24 nor next Sunday 12/31
Message-ID: <5a3fbf47.8f22240a.beaf5.e419@mx.google.com>

AWARE isn't meeting this Sunday the 24th, nor next Sunday the 31st, since Pizza M will be closed both days.
I think that means that our next event will be our first anti-war demonstration of 2018, at 2pm on Saturday, Jan. 6th. 
Good holidays, all, and let's hope for a better year to come.
 -- Stuart
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sun Dec 24 15:59:42 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 15:59:42 +0000
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Cornel West denounces fake left politics
In-Reply-To: <0AEB3C02-C66A-4EFF-B5A7-45F11609C32C@gmail.com>
References: <0AEB3C02-C66A-4EFF-B5A7-45F11609C32C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB1677D36A7902F260611CA4ADA3000@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

This from the Intercept, maybe even better, once you get past the first paragraph or two.


> https://theintercept.com/2017/12/21/cornel-west-ta-nehisi-coates-feud/ <https://theintercept.com/2017/12/21/cornel-west-ta-nehisi-coates-feud/>


> On Dec 24, 2017, at 06:19, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> 
> The US government is killing people around the world, but not for white supremacy.
> 
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fcommentisfree%2F2017%2Fdec%2F17%2Fta-nehisi-coates-neoliberal-black-struggle-cornel-west&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb2033471046f4b807ad508d54ad96e6a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497220078317095&sdata=pR%2BFOyrxOf8kdm80yFc88yZCaU5U6M6JEGbQu0YrY%2F8%3D&reserved=0
> 
> ‘...any analysis or vision of our world that omits the centrality of Wall Street power, US military policies, and the complex dynamics of class, gender, and sexuality in black America is too narrow and dangerously misleading. So it is with Ta-Nehisi Coates’ worldview.
> 
> 'Coates rightly highlights the vicious legacy of white supremacy – past and present. He sees it everywhere and ever reminds us of its plundering effects. Unfortunately, he hardly keeps track of our fightback, and never connects this ugly legacy to the predatory capitalist practices, imperial policies (of war, occupation, detention, assassination) or the black elite’s refusal to confront poverty, patriarchy or transphobia.
> 
> 'In short, Coates fetishizes white supremacy. He makes it almighty, magical and unremovable. What concerns me is his narrative of “defiance”. For Coates, defiance is narrowly aesthetic – a personal commitment to writing with no connection to collective action. It generates crocodile tears of neoliberals who have no intention of sharing power or giving up privilege.
> 
> 'When he honestly asks: “How do you defy a power that insists on claiming you?”, the answer should be clear: they claim you because you are silent on what is a threat to their order (especially Wall Street and war). You defy them when you threaten that order…'
> 
> ###
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 28 13:15:09 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 13:15:09 +0000
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Exercising the franchise
In-Reply-To: <54EDBB48-9526-493D-A9D4-8CF8526D529F@gmail.com>
References: <54EDBB48-9526-493D-A9D4-8CF8526D529F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB167776AFF898885B12EB1FF3A3040@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

Happy New Year Carl

1. & 2. are definitely worth supporting.

3. Sounds good, I would personally love it, and it might be the only way to bring the troops home, keep people from starving………then what?

Unless we remove the Oligarchs controlled by the corporations we will have more of the same. Perpetual war, and an insidious whittling away of the UBI, just as we have seen a whittling away of social security, medicare, medicaid and all social services provided since the New Deal, in an effort to save capitalism. UBI, would pacify the people into “acquiescence,” when what we need is "revolution."

Neoliberal policies are short term fixes, when what we need is structural change. Complete structural/system change is the only way to prevent perpetual war, and global warming, and time is fast running out.

On Dec 28, 2017, at 02:38, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:


In 2018 I will vote against incumbents - they haven't done well - and support only candidates who will vote for

1. bringing all US troops (and weapons) home;
2. establishing Medicare for all; and
3. providing a universal basic income.

Happy new year.  —CGE

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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 28 14:41:51 2017
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 14:41:51 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Ajamu Baraka speaking at Code Pink program: please read:
Message-ID: <SN1PR08MB167756F9799FB21EB2F787E2A3040@SN1PR08MB1677.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

transcript
[http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2017-12-01/codepink1021abaraka-240.jpg]AJAMU BARAKA: Thank you so much, Medea. Thank you for that gracious introduction. Thank all of you for coming out this morning, and thank you for inviting me to be a part of what I think is going to be a historic campaign. I've always wanted to work a little bit closer with Code Pink. I've always respected the work of this organization, always respected the work of Medea. In fact, I always wanted to do some CD with you, because people tell me that -- and I think it's true -- that you could probably do CD with Medea and be relatively safe. Normally, I'll be one of the first ones that the police would grab, but I think if I do CD with Medea, they'll run right past me and grab you. Let's try it one day.

MEDEA BENJAMIN: We'll do it.

AJAMU BARAKA: This is a very important campaign, and as Medea shared with you, we have a new formation that we are developing. We launched this year, April the 4th of this year, in honor of the 50th anniversary of the very famous speech by Dr. King on April the 4th, 1967, in which he broke with the U.S. and came out in opposition to the Vietnam War. We thought that was a very appropriate moment for us to relaunch the black anti-war movement here in this country. As many of you know, the black community has been fairly consistent in this anti-war stance, up until 2008, but as a consequence of the change in administrations and the fact that now people appear to be sort of thinking again, thinking critically, we thought that the moment was here for us to attempt to revive the traditional oppositional stance of the black community as it relates to war.

We see this effort, this alliance, as part of an effort to not only revive the traditional black anti-war movement, but the broader anti-war movement here in this country. So we have been building since. It's been a long process. We don't have many resources, but we do have a lot of enthusiasm and a clear understanding of the historic task before us. And that's why we were so happy to be one of the co-sponsoring organizations of this campaign.

We are going to approach this campaign in a very particular way. Of course, we are going to utilize the fantastic support, resources that Code Pink is going to provide for the campaign. We want to, though, make sure that as we do the work, that we ensure that the politics remain front and center. We want to make sure that we don't reduce the campaign ... I'm sure it won't happen ... but we want to make sure that we steer away from the campaign being more of sort of a technical kind of campaign, and where the politics of the role of the state and the kinds of objective interests that are in play becomes less clear than what they should be.

So when we look at this campaign and we determine how we're going to approach the campaign, we come from a foundational point, and that point basically is we look at the state and we look at the role of militarism, and the role of militarism in terms of its advancement of particular interests. We say that when we look at the state, we understand the state to be an instrument for a rapacious, white supremacist, violent, settler, colonial, capitalist system, and a greedy and short-sighted ruling class. So we're clear about that. We're clear that there is a convergence of interests when it comes to the military industrial and intelligence complex, and the corporate capitalist media, and even the cultural apparatus. We're clear that both parties are united in their commitment to upholding U.S. global hegemony, in which war and violence is a major instrument for maintaining that hegemony.

We're clear that the strategy that is guiding the activity of the state and holding this ruling class coalition together is their commitment to the national security strategy, which is full-spectrum dominance, that has united both neo-liberals and the liberal interventionists. And we've seen the consequence of this coalition, of this strategy. We've seen it in Iraq and that disaster. We have seen it, and we continue to see it, in the second-longest U.S. conflict, which is Afghanistan. Of course, we know that the longest conflict that the U.S. is involved in is the war between the U.S. and North Korea that started in 1950 and continues.

We've seen this result in the attack on Libya, the destabilization and war in Syria, the continuation of drone warfare and the murder of innocent people. We've already talked about the tragic situation in Yemen. We've seen the ideological and moral confusion regarding what happened in Egypt. We've seen the support for destabilization and support of anti-democratic movements and processes in Honduras. We've seen the expansion of the U.S. African Command across the African continent. We watch it with some bit of amusement as people are wondering what U.S. troops are doing in Niger. We've seen the destabilization in Venezuela and the fact that the Trump administration is building off of the policies of the Obama administration in that country.

And we have seen with somewhat surprise, maybe not surprise but definitely disappointment, in the debates or non-debates around the expansion of military spending here in this country, the obscene proposal by the Trump administration for increasing the budget by $54 billion and having that budget expanded even more up to this obscene level of $696 billion.

So we recognize and understand what we are up against, and we understand the winners and we know the losers. The losers are basically the people of the world, the people of this country, who have their resources ripped off, who are the subject, in the crosshairs of U.S. domestic repression. We've already identified some of those winners, those major corporations, and we're not going to talk about them again at this point. But what we say is that basically when we take up this area of work in this campaign, this divestment campaign, which is a very important approach.

Many of us who were part of the anti-apartheid movements some decades ago remember -- in the audience, we have our brother Salih Booker, who was a central player in that fight -- we remember how valuable that divestment instrument can be. It allows you to raise all of the critical points. It allows you to start the process of de-legitimizing what many people have just accepted as legitimate activity and legitimate actors. It helps people to understand what interests are at play when they begin to follow the money. It puts people in a position where they have to, they're going to feel uncomfortable when the information is surfaced that suggests that they are complicit with the sufferings of people around the world. So that moral issue is important, and we connect that moral issue to our political organizing, and we have, I think, a very effective process of de-legitimizing militarism. So we are so happy that we are going to be part of this campaign.

We say that there are sort of three interrelated components that we have to take into account as we build the campaign and engage in the work. They're very important, I think, components because they are related to how we approach the work strategically. First, we have the ideological and cultural component, where we have to acknowledge that as we talk about war and violence, we have to understand the role that war has played in the evolution of this country, that central to the U.S. experience -- and really has been a permanent part of the U.S. national identity -- has been this commitment to militarism, to war. We know that basically when you have this kind of state that was born out of violence, a settler state, that its very existence is the consequence of a military conquest of a people, then those cultures have a way of legitimizing violence, of normalizing violence, and that's one of the reasons why we have this very interesting conversation around gun control.

So we have to recognize that we have a very deep-seated sort of ideological and cultural bias toward the use of violence. We know that in this culture, violence is very much tied to the conception and understanding of what it is to be a male. So there's this gender component, and it's reflected in our attitudes, it's reflected in cinema, it's reflected in the games. In this culture, the way you deal with a conflict is you become violent. You hit somebody or you attack someone, and it's very easy to go from that level of individual aggression to collective aggression. So we have to keep this in mind as we think about how we approach our political work.

We have to keep in mind also a very, very important component of why we have a culture that seems to be quite comfortable in supporting war, and that is the fact that in this culture, the ruling class propagandists have been very effective in utilizing the issue of race, that the wars, most of the wars since the end of the Second World War, 1945, have been wars between the U.S., Western Europe and basically people of color. This ability to "other" people and to dehumanize them has been one of the most effective instruments they have been able to use.

When you have, for example, a senator, Lindsey Graham, who says, "There may be war between the U.S. and North Korea, but don't worry. People are going to die, but it's going to be those people over there." And the very fact that people did not react with outrage across the board is reflective of what I'm getting at. We have a real serious cultural problem here. So we've got to be, in our work we've got to raise up this issue of race and white supremacy. We've got to be the ones that say that basically all lives, in fact, matter. We can't play a game by not addressing that issue in that way, that one cannot be concerned about or play the game here and talk about, "Oh yes, black lives matter," but then you're silent when it comes to the lives of Palestinians or the people in Yemen or the people in Libya or the DRC. We have to be morally consistent. We have to confront, straight and center, this notion of racialized value of life.

We have a second component, the political and economic, and we referred to this briefly. We said that it's quite clear that both parties are committed to the political and material benefits of militarism. The very fact that when we have the vote in Congress to expand the military budget and 117 Democrats in the House supported that expansion, then it's quite obvious where their interests lie. Some of you might recall that when the Trump administration first proposed that $54 billion increase, even the Democrats pretended to be opposed, because that was at the moment they were still in that process of completely trying to demonize Trump. But all of a sudden, they became quiet, and we saw what happened. They became quiet because they knew they were going to eventually support that expansion. So we have both parties are committed to the military budget and militarism.

We know that the financial and corporate sector is engaged in military production and has a grip on the political sector at every level of government, so it's not just the national level, but it's at the state and local level. So when we talk about divestment, we have to keep that in mind. And we see the consequence of that grip on the local and the state level, and the federal level, when it comes to something very simple like reducing the number of domestic military bases. Congress cannot even move to do that, because of those entrenched interests on those state and local levels also.

And we have the reality of a two-party monopoly that makes it very difficult for a third party or fourth party, who may have at the center of their platform, like the Green Party, opposition to militarism, commitment to peace. These are some of the political issues we have to deal with as we deal with this campaign.

Organizationally, we have marvelous opportunities, but we have to acknowledge that as we build this campaign, that we have a still very weak and fragmented anti-war movement, and that we have an even weaker and ideologically confused left and progressive sector here in this country. What this means is that this campaign has an opportunity to help to reverse that, that this campaign will be, I think, a marvelous opportunity to begin to build long-lasting relationships and to strengthen the broader anti-war movement as we go forward. But one thing that we do want to try to avoid, though, is a dependency on too many NGOs and what I call "NGO-ism", that is, when we begin to reduce this struggle to a more technical one and lose the politics.

What does all of this mean in terms of strategy? It means that basically, as we know, the ethical framework becomes primary. We've got to challenge the values. We've got to figure out a way in which in this campaign we de-legitimize militarism and even raise questions regarding the role of the military. We have to raise the issues of race in our work. We have to link this work to our ongoing fight to make sure that the increase in military spending, now that they're at the stage of appropriations, we have to oppose that, make sure that that funding does not in fact materialize. We have to connect this campaign to the campaign that some of us are involved in, in closing all U.S. foreign military bases. We've got to make those links.

We have to talk about the 1033 Program, that program responsible for transferring military-grade hardware from the federal government to police forces across this country. We have to understand that we must make that link between militarism and the domestic. We have to approach and bring into the conversation not just the companies involved in major arms sale, but let's also talk about the fact that we have an arms industry with small arms also, that the U.S. is in fact the number one arms trader on this planet. So when we talk about the people are concerned about the issue of guns and gun control, let's link that to that fact of the U.S. being the number one arms trader on the planet, because that has the direct impact on all of us in this country.

So we've got to make these political links, and we have the opportunities now with this campaign to in fact do that. As I go to my chair, because my time is out just about, let's remind ourselves of this marvelous opportunity. Let's remind ourselves of the fact that we are in fact on the right side of history, that there are numbers of people in this country who are prepared to join us who are, quite frankly, tired of endless war. All they are looking for now is an opportunity to be more involved. They're looking for voices that amplify their concerns, so let's be those voices. Let's build this campaign, and let's build an effective anti-war movement here in this country. Thank you.
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