From kmedina67 at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 23:15:28 2017 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (Karen Medina) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 18:15:28 -0500 Subject: [Peace] tonight, Thursday, November 2, 2017; 7pm / stories from Standing Rock / Mennonite Church Message-ID: (stories) From Standing Rock to Standing with the Sapara Maria Dorsey, Sharon Monday’s daughter, will share stories of Standing Rock and the Sapara people in the Amazon at First Mennonite Church, 902 W. Springfield, Urbana, on Thursday, November 2 at 7:00 pm. The event is a fundraiser for Gloria Ushigua, an activist working on behalf of the Sapara Women’s Association to stop plans for exploration and exploitation of their tribal territory by an oil company. There will be prints for sale of Maria’s paintings. She is splitting the proceeds from paintings ordered that night with Gloria Ushigua. (View at Maria Dorsey Art). For more information about this event: www.eventbrite.com/e/from-standing-rock-to-standing-with-the-sapara-tickets-36987508634 From kmedina67 at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 23:18:59 2017 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (Karen Medina) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 18:18:59 -0500 Subject: [Peace] Healing Earth's Healers / retreat / Friday, November 3; Saturday, November 4, 2017 Message-ID: Sharon Monday will lead a retreat, Healing Earth’s Healers, The retreat, sponsored by Faith in Place, will provide a more intensive experience with group exercises, time for reflection, dialogue, music, and more. Because of the nature of the work, participants are asked to commit to attending both days. To register, please go to www.faithinplace.org. Click on Events, then go to November’s calendar, and click on Friday, November 3 and Saturday, November 4. Friday, November 3 (7:00 – 9:00 pm) and Saturday, November 4 (9:00 am – 5:00 pm) at the Friends Meetinghouse / 904 E Main St, Urbana, IL. From susanroseparenti at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 01:19:52 2017 From: susanroseparenti at gmail.com (Susan Parenti) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 20:19:52 -0500 Subject: [Peace] tomorrow, Friday, debut performance 'Glo Heart', play on global immigration--Please Come Message-ID: Hi Friends---Tomorrow, Friday, Nov. 3, 7:30pm at Channing Murray, our troupe of 6 actors will perform 'Glo Heart', a play Mark Enslin and I wrote based on the book Global Heartlands by U of I professor/writer/activist Faranak Miraftab. Please come. We need your help. We intend to tour with this play, in small towns in Illinois, performing for people who don't sing in our choir (to refer to that everlasting figure of speech). *What's the history of this*? 3 years ago Faranak Miraftab asked us to create a stage play based on her book. She had spent years interviewing people in Beardstown about their immigration experiences--so her book is full of their stories; she is indebted to them. But she knew that very few of these people would ever read her book. In gratitude to them, with a sense of responsibility, she enlisted us to make something that could be performed in their public library,their high schools that could honor their experiences, welcome them, and also show the engineered hostility around them. So members of School for Designing a Society made hours of scripts, based on this book. Mark and I worked with that material, added our own structure--and now have a 45 minute play that we think we can tour with. Please be our audience, and then make us your audience--tell us what you think! -- [image: Inline image 1] *Susan Parenti* *Educational Coordinator * *The School for Designing a Society *www.designingasociety.net *Like us on Facebook !* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: GloHeart.posterprint.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 185770 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 11:47:49 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 06:47:49 -0500 Subject: [Peace] AWARE ON THE AIR, October 31 Message-ID: <1C3E19FA-083B-4F4B-89DA-E63A132AB20E@gmail.com> US war with China. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXcrmtUXGBM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Nov 3 13:16:04 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 13:16:04 +0000 Subject: [Peace] Shocking revelations..... Message-ID: * bscribe to our Newsletter HOT TOPICS ▶ North Korea Target: Iran The Real Baltimore Reality Asserts Itself United Kingdom Donna Brazile Confesses that DNC Rigged Primaries Former DNC Interim Chair Donna Brazile confirms money laundering scheme between the Democratic National Committee and Hillary Clinton campaign [Donna Brazile Confesses that DNC Rigged Primaries] By Michael Sainato November 2, 2017 On November 2, Donna Brazile published an excerpt from her upcoming book, “Hacks,” in Politico. In the passage, Brazile outlines how she first discovered the joint fundraising agreement between Hillary Clinton's campaign and the DNC that created the Hillary Victory Fund. The agreement is the most overt evidence that the DNC rigged the 2016 Democratic Primaries for Hillary Clinton. Essentially, Brazile claims that the fund was used to launder money to the Clinton Campaign, and in exchange the DNC received help in clearing out its debt. The catch was that former DNC Chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the entire apparatus of the DNC was at the control of the Clinton Campaign, serving as an extension of it under the false pretense of neutrality. "Individuals who had maxed out their $2,700 contribution limit to the campaign could write an additional check for $353,400 to the Hillary Victory Fund—that figure represented $10,000 to each of the thirty-two states’ parties who were part of the Victory Fund agreement—$320,000—and $33,400 to the DNC," Brazile writes. "The money would be deposited in the states first, and transferred to the DNC shortly after that. Money in the battleground states usually stayed in that state, but all the other states funneled that money directly to the DNC, which quickly transferred the money to Brooklyn." This news made it clear why Brazile had to have press releases approved by the Clinton Campaign in Brooklyn before they were sent out. Rather than place much too blame on the Clinton Campaign, Brazile explains that Debbie Wasserman Schultz ran the DNC into the ground, overpaying a large staff, vendors, and consultants while accomplishing little through fundraising. Brazile cites the existence of a document signed by the DNC, the Hillary Victory Fund, and Hillary For America that outlined the arrangement, signed by Attorney Marc Elias who has represented the DNC and Clinton Campaign. "In exchange for raising money and investing in the DNC, Hillary would control the party’s finances, strategy, and all the money raised," Brazile writes. "Her campaign had the right of refusal of who would be the party communications director, and it would make final decisions on all the other staff. The DNC also was required to consult with the campaign about all other staffing, budgeting, data, analytics, and mailings." This agreement was signed in August 2015, long before a single person voted in the primaries, but secured that Clinton would be the Democratic Presidential Nominee. Brazile, in an attempt to improve her own public image with Sanders Supporters in the wake of the Wikileaks revelations that she tipped off the Clinton Campaign to CNN debate questions, explained that she brought the agreement to the attention of Bernie Sanders personally after the primaries ended. Brazile wrote, "I told Bernie I had found Hillary’s Joint Fundraising Agreement. I explained that the cancer was that she had exerted this control of the party long before she became its nominee. Had I known this, I never would have accepted the interim chair position, but here we were with only weeks before the election." The passage doesn't explain the debate question debacle, nor mention that in interviews before the primaries, Brazile placed her loyalty to Clinton over neutrality. Brazile told the Washington Post in 2014: "Technically, I’m neutral, but neutrality is something that gets you in trouble because, you ever notice someone who stands on the white line in the middle of the road? They get run over. And I don’t want to get run over. So I’m not neutral. I have to tell people that I’m neutral, but I’m ready for Hillary.” Nevertheless, the revelation Brazile exposed in this excerpt provides further proof and vindication for Bernie Sanders supporters that the DNC was working on behalf of the Clinton Campaign. New DNC Chair Tom Perez, former DNC Chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the rest of the Democratic Party that was complacent in this coronation of Clinton will have to further reconcile and apologize for this agreement that disenfranchised millions of voters who supported Sanders. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From naiman at justforeignpolicy.org Sat Nov 4 20:39:58 2017 From: naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (Robert Naiman) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 15:39:58 -0500 Subject: [Peace] Prominent Iraq/Iran warmonger Eliot Cohen speaking at UIUC November 9, 2017 Message-ID: The Big Stick: Military Power and American Foreign Policy in the Age of Trump http://illinois.edu/calendar/detail/598?eventId=33283229 http://www.clinecenter.illinois.edu/news/events/cline/2017ClineSymposium/EliotCohen.aspx https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_A._Cohen [...] In 1997, Cohen co-founded the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), which was a center for prominent neoconservatives. He has been a member of the Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee, a committee of civilians and retired military officers that the U.S. Secretary of Defense may call upon for advice, that was instituted during the administration of President George W. Bush. He was put on the board after acquaintance Richard Perle put forward his name.[5] Cohen has referred to the War on Terrorism as “World War IV”.[6] In the run-up to the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, he was a member of Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, a group of prominent persons who pressed for an invasion. [...] [...] Cohen was one of the first neoconservatives to publicly advocate war against Iran and Iraq. In a November 2001 op-ed for The Wall Street Journal, Cohen identified what he called World War IV and advocated the overthrow of Iran's government as a possible next step for the Bush Administration. Cohen claimed "regime change" in Iran could be accomplished with a focus on "pro-Western and anticlerical forces" in the Middle East and suggested that such an action would be "wise, moral and unpopular (among some of our allies)". He went on to argue that such a policy was as important as the then identified goal of Osama Bin Laden's capture: "The overthrow of the first theocratic revolutionary Muslim state and its replacement by a moderate or secular government, however, would be no less important a victory in this war than the annihilation of bin Laden." [...] === Robert Naiman Policy Director Just Foreign Policy www.justforeignpolicy.org naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (202) 448-2898 x1 Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galliher at illinois.edu Sat Nov 4 23:34:07 2017 From: galliher at illinois.edu (Carl G. Estabrook) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 18:34:07 -0500 Subject: [Peace] Prominent Iraq/Iran warmonger Eliot Cohen speaking at UIUC November 9, 2017 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E039E74-194D-4A98-A508-41DE54F4497A@illinois.edu> Perhaps an informational picket with a leaflet describing Cohen’s crimes? > On Nov 4, 2017, at 3:39 PM, Robert Naiman via Peace wrote: > > The Big Stick: Military Power and American Foreign Policy in the Age of Trump > > http://illinois.edu/calendar/detail/598?eventId=33283229 > > http://www.clinecenter.illinois.edu/news/events/cline/2017ClineSymposium/EliotCohen.aspx > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_A._Cohen > > [...] > In 1997, Cohen co-founded the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), which was a center for prominent neoconservatives. He has been a member of the Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee, a committee of civilians and retired military officers that the U.S. Secretary of Defense may call upon for advice, that was instituted during the administration of President George W. Bush. He was put on the board after acquaintance Richard Perle put forward his name.[5] Cohen has referred to the War on Terrorism as “World War IV”.[6] In the run-up to the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, he was a member of Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, a group of prominent persons who pressed for an invasion. > [...] > > [...] > Cohen was one of the first neoconservatives to publicly advocate war against Iran and Iraq. In a November 2001 op-ed for The Wall Street Journal, Cohen identified what he called World War IV and advocated the overthrow of Iran's government as a possible next step for the Bush Administration. Cohen claimed "regime change" in Iran could be accomplished with a focus on "pro-Western and anticlerical forces" in the Middle East and suggested that such an action would be "wise, moral and unpopular (among some of our allies)". He went on to argue that such a policy was as important as the then identified goal of Osama Bin Laden's capture: "The overthrow of the first theocratic revolutionary Muslim state and its replacement by a moderate or secular government, however, would be no less important a victory in this war than the annihilation of bin Laden." > [...] > > === > > Robert Naiman > Policy Director > Just Foreign Policy > www.justforeignpolicy.org > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org > (202) 448-2898 x1 > > Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen > https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuartnlevy at gmail.com Wed Nov 8 23:01:23 2017 From: stuartnlevy at gmail.com (Stuart Levy) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 17:01:23 -0600 Subject: [Peace] Fwd: Prominent Iraq/Iran warmonger Eliot Cohen speaking at UIUC November 9, 2017 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20b81f50-57d2-f7f6-061d-a6bf90f69dbe@gmail.com> Is anyone available to go to this, happening tomorrow (Thurs.) at 7:30 at Alice Campbell Alumni Center? Some of us talked at last weekend's AWARE demo, and I didn't find anyone who was able to go on Thu.   Can you? Carl suggested an informational picket.  That sounds like a great idea. If I were there, I'd think to bring a sign saying:   "Cohen: You Supported Invading Iraq. // Why Should We Believe You Now?" -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: [Peace] Prominent Iraq/Iran warmonger Eliot Cohen speaking at UIUC November 9, 2017 Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 15:39:58 -0500 From: Robert Naiman via Peace Reply-To: Robert Naiman To: peace The Big Stick: Military Power and American Foreign Policy in the Age of Trump http://illinois.edu/calendar/detail/598?eventId=33283229 http://www.clinecenter.illinois.edu/news/events/cline/2017ClineSymposium/EliotCohen.aspx https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_A._Cohen [...] In 1997, Cohen co-founded the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), which was a center for prominent neoconservatives. He has been a member of the Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee, a committee of civilians and retired military officers that the U.S. Secretary of Defense may call upon for advice, that was instituted during the administration of President George W. Bush. He was put on the board after acquaintance Richard Perle put forward his name.[5] Cohen has referred to the War on Terrorism as “World War IV”.[6] In the run-up to the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, he was a member of Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, a group of prominent persons who pressed for an invasion. [...] [...] Cohen was one of the first neoconservatives to publicly advocate war against Iran and Iraq. In a November 2001 op-ed for The Wall Street Journal, Cohen identified what he called World War IV and advocated the overthrow of Iran's government as a possible next step for the Bush Administration. Cohen claimed "regime change" in Iran could be accomplished with a focus on "pro-Western and anticlerical forces" in the Middle East and suggested that such an action would be "wise, moral and unpopular (among some of our allies)". He went on to argue that such a policy was as important as the then identified goal of Osama Bin Laden's capture: "The overthrow of the first theocratic revolutionary Muslim state and its replacement by a moderate or secular government, however, would be no less important a victory in this war than the annihilation of bin Laden." [...] === Robert Naiman Policy Director Just Foreign Policy www.justforeignpolicy.org naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (202) 448-2898 x1 Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace From naiman at justforeignpolicy.org Wed Nov 8 23:35:23 2017 From: naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (Robert Naiman) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 17:35:23 -0600 Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Fwd: Prominent Iraq/Iran warmonger Eliot Cohen speaking at UIUC November 9, 2017 In-Reply-To: <20b81f50-57d2-f7f6-061d-a6bf90f69dbe@gmail.com> References: <20b81f50-57d2-f7f6-061d-a6bf90f69dbe@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am willing to go, but I am not willing to go by myself. If three other people here will commit to go, then I will go. Robert Naiman Policy Director Just Foreign Policy www.justforeignpolicy.org naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (202) 448-2898 x1 Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 5:01 PM, Stuart Levy via Peace-discuss < peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > Is anyone available to go to this, happening tomorrow (Thurs.) at 7:30 at > Alice Campbell Alumni Center? > > Some of us talked at last weekend's AWARE demo, and I didn't find anyone > who was able to go on Thu. Can you? > > Carl suggested an informational picket. That sounds like a great idea. > > If I were there, I'd think to bring a sign saying: > "Cohen: You Supported Invading Iraq. // Why Should We Believe You Now?" > > > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: [Peace] Prominent Iraq/Iran warmonger Eliot Cohen speaking at > UIUC November 9, 2017 > Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 15:39:58 -0500 > From: Robert Naiman via Peace > > Reply-To: Robert Naiman > > To: peace > > > The Big Stick: Military Power and American Foreign Policy in the Age of > Trump > > http://illinois.edu/calendar/detail/598?eventId=33283229 > > http://www.clinecenter.illinois.edu/news/events/cline/2017ClineSymposium/ > EliotCohen.aspx > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_A._Cohen > > [...] > In 1997, Cohen co-founded the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), > which was a center for prominent neoconservatives. He has been a member of > the Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee, a committee of civilians and > retired military officers that the U.S. Secretary of Defense may call upon > for advice, that was instituted during the administration of President > George W. Bush. He was put on the board after acquaintance Richard Perle > put forward his name.[5] Cohen has referred to the War on Terrorism as > “World War IV”.[6] In the run-up to the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, he was a > member of Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, a group of prominent > persons who pressed for an invasion. > [...] > > [...] > Cohen was one of the first neoconservatives to publicly advocate war > against Iran and Iraq. In a November 2001 op-ed for The Wall Street > Journal, Cohen identified what he called World War IV and advocated the > overthrow of Iran's government as a possible next step for the Bush > Administration. Cohen claimed "regime change" in Iran could be accomplished > with a focus on "pro-Western and anticlerical forces" in the Middle East > and suggested that such an action would be "wise, moral and unpopular > (among some of our allies)". He went on to argue that such a policy was as > important as the then identified goal of Osama Bin Laden's capture: "The > overthrow of the first theocratic revolutionary Muslim state and its > replacement by a moderate or secular government, however, would be no less > important a victory in this war than the annihilation of bin Laden." > [...] > > === > > Robert Naiman > Policy Director > Just Foreign Policy > www.justforeignpolicy.org > naiman at justforeignpolicy.org > (202) 448-2898 x1 > > Co-Sponsor Khanna-Massie to #StopSaudiFamineInYemen > https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/force-vote-on-saudi-war?r_by=1135580 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmedina67 at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 05:22:36 2017 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (Karen Medina) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 23:22:36 -0600 Subject: [Peace] neocon Eliot Cohen talk / demonstrate outside the room? Message-ID: A possible event to demonstrate outside of: 7:30pm 11/9/17 Alice Campbell Alumni Center Keynote talk by neocon Eliot Cohen, Title: "The Big Stick: Military Power and American Foreign Policy in the Age of Trump" If I could be there I'd want to bring a sign saying something like, "Cohen: You Supported Invading Iraq // Why Should We Believe You Now?" -- -- karen medina "The really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." - Mark Twain From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Nov 9 15:16:28 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 15:16:28 +0000 Subject: [Peace] The beginning of the end for RT.com news. Message-ID: Washington will apply its Foreign Agents Registration Act to RT America, the channel has announced. The Department of Justice has given the broadcaster until Monday to register as a foreign agent, otherwise the channel’s head faces arrest and its accounts could be frozen. The piece of legislation was adopted in the US in 1938 to counter pro-Nazi agitation on US soil. Washington has made the decision to apply the act towards the company that supplies all services for RT America on its territory, including TV production and operations. Just over 400 entities are currently registered under the legislation, but it does not include a single media outlet. In September, the DOJ sent a letter to the company, claiming it is obligated to register under the Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA) due to the work it does for RT. The law demands the disclosure of the channel's confidential data, including the personal data of its staff. The move "will have serious legal consequences" and "compromise the safety of [RT] employees," the Russian Foreign Ministry previously explained. RT's editor-in-chief, Margarita Simonyan, said on Thursday that the timeframe provided for the company by the DoJ is a "cannibalistic deadline." She previously said that the channel was being forced into "conditions in which we cannot work" in the US, and called Washington's demand an attempt to "drive [RT] out of the country." Simonyan had said the decision put freedom of speech in the US under question. RT has been under pressure for showing the American audience "a different point of view," the editor-in-chief added. READ MORE: Labeling RT a foreign agent amid ‘witch hunt’ in US may pose real threat to its staff – Moscow Moscow earlier warned that the US move towards the Russian channel would trigger reciprocal measures in regards to American media working in Russia. "If someone starts to fight dirty, perverting the law by using it as a tool to eradicate the TV station, every move aimed against the Russian media outlet would be repaid in kind," Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said. Share on FacebookShare on Twitter Sponsored Links NewsD More From RT.com Woman pulls up skirt in crowded station calling to criminalize ‘upskirting’ (VIDEO) NATO readying Europe’s infrastructure for war a ‘bad signal’ for Russia – general to RT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 10:36:59 2017 From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 04:36:59 -0600 Subject: [Peace] rally Wednesday at Davis' office Message-ID: Tomorrow, Wednesday, Nov. 15, we will be joining Indivisible and other local groups for a rally at Rep Rodney Davis' office, 2004 Fox Dr., Champaign, noon, to protest the horrible so-called tax-reform bill in Congress. Please join us there if you can. Thanks, Deb From karenaram at hotmail.com Sat Nov 18 15:47:28 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 15:47:28 +0000 Subject: [Peace] Transcript from interview with Wm. Hurting, a must read by all Message-ID: "William D. Hartung is the director of the Arms and Security Project at the Center for International Policy. He is an internationally recognized expert on the arms trade, nuclear policy, and military spending. He is the author of Prophets of War: Lockheed Martin and the Making of the Military-Industrial Complex (Nation Books: 2011). His previous books include And Weapons for All (HarperCollins, 1995), a critique of U.S. arms sales policies from the Nixon through Clinton administrations; and Lessons from Iraq: Avoiding the Next War, co-edited with Miram Pemberton (Paradigm Press, 2008). Prior to working at the Center for International Policy Mr. Hartung was a project director at the New America Foundation and a Senior Research Fellow at the New York-based World Policy Institute. He also worked as a speechwriter and policy analyst for New York State Attorney General Robert Abrams and a project director at the New York-based Council on Economic Priorities. Divided Congress Unites to Spend $700B on Military and WarAARON MATÉ: It's The Real News, I'm Aaron Maté. The US Congress is as divided as ever, but there is no daylight between Democrats and Republicans when it comes to funding war. The House has just approved a nearly 700 billion dollar Military Spending Bill. That is almost 100 billion dollars more than President Trump had asked for. It will go toward buying even more military war planes, ships and weapons than the Pentagon had requested The House vote was an overwhelming 356 to 70 with 127 Democrats voting in favor. A similar measure is expected to pass the Senate, although lawmakers will have to agree on raising the budget cap first. Joining me is William Hartung, Director of The Arms and Security Project at The Center for International Policy. Welcome, Bill. So, this vote took place on the same day as the Senate test ... Or as the testimony of Jeff Sessions, the Attorney General, which drastically overshadowed this story. But this is a pretty big deal. The House voting for a nearly 700 billion dollars in Military spending. Your thoughts on this measure? WILLIAM HARTUNG: Well, it's an overwhelming amount of money, one of the highest levels since WWII. Trump's announcement, that he was gonna increase it by 54 billion dollars back in the Spring, already raised consternation because he's going to cut, or try to cut domestic programs dollar for dollar for what he's increasing the Pentagon. That 54 billion was as much as the entire military budgets of allies like Japan, the UK, France, Germany. Now this bigger amount that the Congress wants is well in excess of what any of our allies spend and getting close to what Russia spends for its entire military budget. It's a huge amount of money and as you suggested, a lot of it is to buy additional weapons beyond even what the Pentagon asked for. It's things like more F-35s, which is vastly expensive and which my colleagues at The Project and Government oversight have said is never gonna be ready for combat. There's more F18s, not because they're needed but because there's a production line in Missouri that members there want to protect because of the jobs in their districts and states. They want to throw more money, billions more, at missile defense, build 28 new ground based interceptors and all kinds of other related missile defense items. There a little bit of money for a mobile ground based nuclear missile, which would violate the intermediate nuclear forces treaty in Europe, if it were to go forward. They endorse the 1.7 trillion dollar nuclear modernization plan that President Trump inherited from the Obama administration. So, there's a lot of money sloshing around and very little of it has to do with defending the country. In fact, a lot of it went to new weapons systems, even though they claim the troops need training, we're not taking care of them. Basically, this is a budget about corporations, not so much about helping the troops. AARON MATÉ: How does, what is the process there? Where the Pentagon submits a request for a certain amount of F-35 Joint Fighters, then Congress takes that and gives them even more than they asked for? WILLIAM HARTUNG: Well, Congress has the last word. So, between the authorization process, which is dealt with by the Armed Services Committees, then, the final appropriations process, which is done in appropriations and the Defense Appropriation Subcommittees. Congress can pretty much do what it wants. The problem they're facing is there's caps on the budget under the budget control act. They've dealt with prior to that by throwing a bunch of extra money in the War Budget, which is not under the caps. It's a big slush fund that's excluded from the caps. But they want so much money that they may not be able to make it work unless they literally lift those caps. That involves a major budget deal with taxes, and entitlements, and so forth. Given that Trump wants this absurd tax increase that's mostly going to corporations, it's possible that process will get derailed. They won't get quite these huge numbers that they're aiming for. But that's all gonna be played out, probably, in the next month or so. AARON MATÉ: The Military Industrial Complex has always entailed a revolving door between government, military and private military corporations. But I'm wondering if you can comment on its state under President Trump. A number of nominees and appointees come from the military industry. Most recently, Trump nominated John Rood, the Senior Vice President of Lockheed Martin to the third top position at the Pentagon. Can you talk about some of the people who Trump has appointed from the military industry to be now involved in the military and having a huge influence over spending decisions. WILLIAM HARTUNG: Between Generals and people from the weapons industry, and Generals who come from the weapons industry, Eisenhower would be horrified. This is the Military Industrial Complex not only personified, but intensified. So, you've got, for example the top three positions at the Pentagon. General Mattis was at General Dynamics. As you mentioned, the third in charge was at Lockheed Martin. The Secretary of the Army now is from Raytheon, just recently confirmed. The Secretary of the Air Force did questionable lobbying for Lockheed Martin. Basically, no show lobbying that you have to give the money back. The Chief of Staff of The National Security Counsel worked for a Defense Contractor. John Kelley, he's The White House Chief of Staff. So, there's hardly anybody in the top decision making position in the Trump Administration who's not either a General or from a Weapon's Contractor, or both. So, they're not likely to hold the line on Pentagon spending. That's why it's kind of amazing that Congress is actually throwing more money at the Pentagon than even this group requested. AARON MATÉ: There are supposed to be budget caps imposed by Congress to limit military spending. To pass this bill through, they're gonna have to raise the budget cap by, I believe it's something like, 80 billion dollars over what is currently allowed. Do you expect that to happen? WILLIAM HARTUNG: I think they may have a hard time reaching that number. They can throw money in the War Budget and it's not capped. But they've already done that. There's tens of billions of dollars in the war budget that have nothing to do with fighting wars, that are just things they couldn't fit under the caps. So, there's limits to how far they can go with that. They're gonna have to cut a deal on taxes, and entitlements and overall spending. Kind of a deficit reduction plan. My guess is they'll get- AARON MATE: Which means, wait does that mean just cutting money from other areas. Like, I don't know, Medicaid and other vital services to pay for this? WILLIAM HARTUNG: They can do it that way if they hit the number that they're aiming for, which has been, when the bill was passed originally, sort of a trillion dollar reduction over 10 years on both sides of the budget. So, but once they make a deal, sure. They can substitute cuts on the domestic side for increase on the Pentagon side. They've done this before. They've made small deals that haven't completely gotten rid of the caps but have raised them to higher levels. So, my guess is it'll be something like that. The Pentagon will do fine, if they don't get every dollar that's on the table, of course they're gonna cry poverty. But the Pentagon, there's no amount of money that would be enough for them, so that's not really something we should listen to with any seriousness. AARON MATÉ: When we talk about supporting the troops, it's just interesting to compare all this money going to programs that, as you mentioned have nothing to do with the troops themselves. Have to do with Weapons Contractors. I'm wondering your thoughts on that, Bill. WILLIAM HARTUNG: For example, when we had these terrible accidents in the Pacific, where we lost sailors. Some people who have followed this pointed out that there used to be much more rigorous training for the people who ran those ships. They were these months long courses that no longer exist. To do that, cost about 15 million dollars a year, which is a tiny fraction of a percentage of the Pentagon budget. So, on the one hand, they could spend over the next three decades, 1.7 trillion on nuclear weapons we don't need. Yet they're crying that the troops need more training and they're not spending that money. So, it's very hypocritical and it's very much using the troops as a poster child to get more money. As opposed to taking care of the troops, which could be done with a fraction of what the Pentagon wastes on any given day. AARON MATÉ: William Hartung, Director of The Arms and Security Project at The Center for International Policy, thank you. WILLIAM HARTUNG: Yes, thank you. AARON MATÉ: And thank you for joining us on The Real News.” [https://external-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQAE0tlVmNKRJVv4&w=476&h=249&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftherealnews.com%2Fmedia%2Ftrn_2017-11-01%2Fwhartung1115budget.jpg&cfs=1&upscale=1&fallback=news_d_placeholder_publisher&sx=0&sy=17&sw=1200&sh=628&_nc_hash=AQDsCBwy7JdEjK83] Divided Congress Unites to Spend $700B on Military and War House Democrats and Republicans have approved a nearly $700 billion military spending bill, almost $100 billion more than President Trump and the war… THEREALNEWS.COM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmedina67 at gmail.com Sun Nov 19 13:40:47 2017 From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (kmedina67) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 07:40:47 -0600 Subject: [Peace] Transcript from interview with Wm. Hurting, a must read by all Message-ID: <5a1189e2.8f096b0a.aeb7b.56c2@mx.google.com>  Why was this sent to peace AND peace-discuss? * Is Hartung coming to speak here? Then it goes to peace, with the when and where clearly identified. * Is it an article for discussion? Then it goes to peace-discuss We have two lists for a reason. If people continue to send the same item to both, then the lists are redundant - Karen medina null -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Sun Nov 19 13:59:56 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 13:59:56 +0000 Subject: [Peace] Fwd: [Peace-discuss] Fwd: New event created by Food & Water Watch - Ohio References: Message-ID: In Chicago [All Events in City] Your account has been inactive for more than a month. To continue receiving event alerts, please Login again. Food & Water Watch - Ohio has a new event for you. To the Ends of the Earth Screening [To the Ends of the Earth Screening] [Time] Mon Nov 27 2017 at 06:00 pm [Venue] Uncommon Ground, 1401 W Devon Ave, Chicago, United States Join Event To the Ends of the Earth follows concerned citizens living at the frontiers of extreme oil and gas extraction. They call for human ingenuity to rebuild society at the end of the fossil fuel era. As the fracking industry takes off in Illinois, this documentary is more timely than ever in our state. Instead of investing in clean energy to mitigate climate change disasters, Illinois is going backwards by allowing a dangerous practice to occur within our borders. Join us at this documentary screening to learn about the destructive extractive industries in the U.S. and see how we're fighting back in Illinois. Event Cosponsors: Food and Water Watch Chicago Area Peace Action - Loyola CAPA Climate Group Reba Place Church Recommend this event to your friends, share on Facebook and Twitter! Social Event Discovery App Stay updated about your favorite events. Know where your friends are going and discover events of your interest. [All Events in City on Google Play] [All Events in City on app store] [https://cdn.allevents.in/new/images/email/mobile-app-trans-270.png] [Publish your Event] About us Blog Terms of Service Careers Contact us Facebook Twitter Google+ This email was sent to you as your are following Food & Water Watch - Ohio. If you do not wish to receive emails for event updates, Disable notification for Food & Water Watch - Ohio or Turn off email notifications for new events from all the organizers. _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C24503dfb0d61440603ec08d52f559e08%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636466967125434199&sdata=5OxMF6%2Bc%2FwC858FY6AWbqTjp1hrWKv%2Fb9%2B1NrvAu%2B%2FI%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Mon Nov 20 15:51:52 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 09:51:52 -0600 Subject: [Peace] Fwd: Conference on U.S. Foreign Military Bases, January 12-14, Baltimore, Maryland References: <090bb12a9ccf856210dc6105b.00dedb9b85.20171004154913.d394a1e291.bb73757a@mail112.atl71.mcdlv.net> Message-ID: > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Coalition Against U.S. Foreign Military Bases > Subject: Conference on U.S. Foreign Military Bases, January 12-14, Baltimore, Maryland > Date: October 4, 2017 at 10:49:35 AM CDT > To: C. G. > Reply-To: Coalition Against U.S. Foreign Military Bases > > Conference on U.S. Foreign Military Bases > January 12-14, 2018 > University of Baltimore > Baltimore, Maryland > > Hosted By: Coalition Against U.S. Foreign Military Bases > > > Thirteen prominent peace and justice organizations in the United States are collectively organizing a 3-day national conference on U.S. Foreign Military Bases on January 12-14, 2018, at the University of Baltimore, Maryland: > > Alliance for Global Justice > Black Alliance for Peace > CODEPINK > Global Network Against Weapons and Nuclear Power in Space > International Action Center > MLK Justice Coalition > Nuclear Age Peace Foundation > Popular Resistance > United National Antiwar Coalition > U.S. Peace Council > Veterans For Peace > Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom > World Beyond War > The conference will feature national and international experts. Several expert panels will discuss the economic, political, environmental and health costs and impact of U.S. foreign military bases in various regions of the world, including South America, Asia-Pacific, Africa, the Middle East, and Europe. The conference will be live streamed for the international audience. > > For more information and to register for the conference: > > Visit the Coalition's Website > > > > > Want to change how you receive these emails? > You can update your preferences or unsubscribe from this list . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Nov 22 12:49:27 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 12:49:27 +0000 Subject: [Peace] Fwd: New event created by Food & Water Watch - Ohio References: <4c3a4b66-d34a-4e70-8a33-0c68d7b52647@rp.postal.allevents.in> Message-ID: [All Events in City] Your account has been inactive for more than a month. To continue receiving event alerts, please Login again. Food & Water Watch - Ohio has a new event for you. Fight Climate Change with Pizza [Fight Climate Change with Pizza] [Time] Thu Dec 07 2017 at 05:00 pm [Venue] Food & Water Watch - Midwest, 670 W Hubbard St #300, Chicago, United States Join Event The OFF Fossil Fuels for a Better Future Act (OFF Act) is THE strongest piece of climate legislation in Congress. The future of our planet depends on the passage of a swift and just transition to 100% renewables, and that's what this event is about. We're going to be calling people living in key districts and asking them to give their Congressperson a call and ask that they co-sponsor the OFF Act. Pizza and vegan snacks will be provided! Please bring your laptop and phone. Recommend this event to your friends, share on Facebook and Twitter! Social Event Discovery App Stay updated about your favorite events. Know where your friends are going and discover events of your interest. [All Events in City on Google Play] [All Events in City on app store] [https://cdn.allevents.in/new/images/email/mobile-app-trans-270.png] [Publish your Event] About us Blog Terms of Service Careers Contact us Facebook Twitter Google+ This email was sent to you as your are following Food & Water Watch - Ohio. If you do not wish to receive emails for event updates, Disable notification for Food & Water Watch - Ohio or Turn off email notifications for new events from all the organizers. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Nov 23 16:01:56 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 16:01:56 +0000 Subject: [Peace] NET NEUTRALITY Message-ID: >From a trusted source: Only five people at the FCC get to vote on Net Neutrality: Their names are Ajit Pai, Mignon Clyburn, Michael O'Rielly, Brendan Carr, and Jessica Rosenworcel. Both Mignon and Jessica plan to vote keep net neutrality, to defeat the net neutrality repeal one of these three men need to change their vote. Any change to be made has to be by directly contacting them. To do so here are the numbers easiest to contact them with: Ajit Pai: 202-518-7399 Michael O'Rielly: 301-657-9092 Brendan Carr: 202-719-7305 Please, please, PLEASE contact these people! Net neutrality is an immensely important part of what all of us here on Facebook and across the entire internet enjoy on a daily basis. MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD!! Please copy and repost. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 17:32:33 2017 From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 11:32:33 -0600 Subject: [Peace] NET NEUTRALITY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9A55F09B-11A2-4E6D-86E9-5C3A1477BB3B@gmail.com> Pai And Carr numbers are disconnected. O'Rielly has no voice mail. Deb Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 23, 2017, at 10:01 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: > > From a trusted source: > > Only five people at the FCC get to vote on Net Neutrality: > Their names are Ajit Pai, Mignon Clyburn, Michael O'Rielly, Brendan Carr, and Jessica Rosenworcel. Both Mignon and Jessica plan to vote keep net neutrality, to defeat the net neutrality repeal one of these three men need to change their vote. > Any change to be made has to be by directly contacting them. To do so here are the numbers easiest to contact them with: > Ajit Pai: 202-518-7399 > Michael O'Rielly: 301-657-9092 > Brendan Carr: 202-719-7305 > Please, please, PLEASE contact these people! Net neutrality is an immensely important part of what all of us here on Facebook and across the entire internet enjoy on a daily basis. > MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD!! Please copy and repost. > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Nov 23 19:19:25 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 19:19:25 +0000 Subject: [Peace] NET NEUTRALITY In-Reply-To: <9A55F09B-11A2-4E6D-86E9-5C3A1477BB3B@gmail.com> References: <9A55F09B-11A2-4E6D-86E9-5C3A1477BB3B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Deb, will attempt another source. On Nov 23, 2017, at 09:32, Debra Schrishuhn > wrote: Pai And Carr numbers are disconnected. O'Rielly has no voice mail. Deb Sent from my iPhone On Nov 23, 2017, at 10:01 AM, Karen Aram via Peace > wrote: >From a trusted source: Only five people at the FCC get to vote on Net Neutrality: Their names are Ajit Pai, Mignon Clyburn, Michael O'Rielly, Brendan Carr, and Jessica Rosenworcel. Both Mignon and Jessica plan to vote keep net neutrality, to defeat the net neutrality repeal one of these three men need to change their vote. Any change to be made has to be by directly contacting them. To do so here are the numbers easiest to contact them with: Ajit Pai: 202-518-7399 Michael O'Rielly: 301-657-9092 Brendan Carr: 202-719-7305 Please, please, PLEASE contact these people! Net neutrality is an immensely important part of what all of us here on Facebook and across the entire internet enjoy on a daily basis. MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD!! Please copy and repost. _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From deb.pdamerica at gmail.com Fri Nov 24 10:16:57 2017 From: deb.pdamerica at gmail.com (Debra Schrishuhn) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 04:16:57 -0600 Subject: [Peace] NET NEUTRALITY In-Reply-To: References: <9A55F09B-11A2-4E6D-86E9-5C3A1477BB3B@gmail.com> Message-ID: This is a critical issue--thanks for publicizing it. We also all need to be jamming lines at Congressional/Senate offices demanding NO votes on the Republican tax scam and YES votes on a clean DREAM Act. On 11/23/17, Karen Aram wrote: > Thanks Deb, will attempt another source. > > On Nov 23, 2017, at 09:32, Debra Schrishuhn > > wrote: > > Pai And Carr numbers are disconnected. O'Rielly has no voice mail. > Deb > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 23, 2017, at 10:01 AM, Karen Aram via Peace > > wrote: > > From a trusted source: > > Only five people at the FCC get to vote on Net Neutrality: > Their names are Ajit Pai, Mignon Clyburn, Michael O'Rielly, Brendan Carr, > and Jessica Rosenworcel. Both Mignon and Jessica plan to vote keep net > neutrality, to defeat the net neutrality repeal one of these three men need > to change their vote. > Any change to be made has to be by directly contacting them. To do so here > are the numbers easiest to contact them with: > Ajit Pai: 202-518-7399 > Michael O'Rielly: 301-657-9092 > Brendan Carr: 202-719-7305 > Please, please, PLEASE contact these people! Net neutrality is an immensely > important part of what all of us here on Facebook and across the entire > internet enjoy on a daily basis. > MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD!! Please copy and repost. > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > > From karenaram at hotmail.com Fri Nov 24 12:45:21 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 12:45:21 +0000 Subject: [Peace] NET NEUTRALITY In-Reply-To: References: <9A55F09B-11A2-4E6D-86E9-5C3A1477BB3B@gmail.com> Message-ID: This is one of the “contacts” being passed around on FB "We have until December to make our voices heard. CONTACT your representatives in Congress and tell them you’re OPPOSED to dismantling Net Neutrality." “Text RESIST to 50409, get signed up, and send a message to your Congress Representatives that you're opposed to dismantling Net Neutrality, and ANYONE who fails to preserve a fair and open internet will see the consequences come re-election time." On Nov 24, 2017, at 02:16, Debra Schrishuhn > wrote: This is a critical issue--thanks for publicizing it. We also all need to be jamming lines at Congressional/Senate offices demanding NO votes on the Republican tax scam and YES votes on a clean DREAM Act. On 11/23/17, Karen Aram > wrote: Thanks Deb, will attempt another source. On Nov 23, 2017, at 09:32, Debra Schrishuhn > wrote: Pai And Carr numbers are disconnected. O'Rielly has no voice mail. Deb Sent from my iPhone On Nov 23, 2017, at 10:01 AM, Karen Aram via Peace > wrote: From a trusted source: Only five people at the FCC get to vote on Net Neutrality: Their names are Ajit Pai, Mignon Clyburn, Michael O'Rielly, Brendan Carr, and Jessica Rosenworcel. Both Mignon and Jessica plan to vote keep net neutrality, to defeat the net neutrality repeal one of these three men need to change their vote. Any change to be made has to be by directly contacting them. To do so here are the numbers easiest to contact them with: Ajit Pai: 202-518-7399 Michael O'Rielly: 301-657-9092 Brendan Carr: 202-719-7305 Please, please, PLEASE contact these people! Net neutrality is an immensely important part of what all of us here on Facebook and across the entire internet enjoy on a daily basis. MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD!! Please copy and repost. _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C1e48dfd637664c14e07e08d533247f39%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636471154196291937&sdata=Pk5KDKCFgI7KeGMB8zTlsA6brhzKdhs%2BfrWWdUqOXik%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Mon Nov 27 18:49:56 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C. G. Estabrook ) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 12:49:56 -0600 Subject: [Peace] Fwd: Indigenous Resistance talk - Tuesday, December 5th, 6:30pm References: Message-ID: Sent from my iPhone Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: > From: Eric Anglada > Date: November 27, 2017 at 12:37:24 PM CST > To: Catholic Worker School > Subject: Indigenous Resistance talk - Tuesday, December 5th, 6:30pm > > There's Another Standing Rock Brewing… > > St. Isidore Catholic Worker Farm and the Sinsinawa Dominicans are co-sponsoring: > > Defend the Sacred: Indigenous Perspectives on the Enbridge Pipeline > Tuesday, December 5th - 6:30pm > Sinsinawa Mound, WI (585 County Rd. Z, Sinsinawa, WI 53824) > > Come learn about what indigenous communities are doing in the Upper Midwest to nonviolently resist the Enbridge Line 3 pipeline to protect water and the Earth. Emphasizing hope and courage, the presenters will also discuss their Makwa Initiative, which is a community living in sustainable, traditional ways in the shadows of the pipeline. There will also be opportunity to financially support their work. > Presenters: Hennessey Beaulieu (Namadaabii Ikwe) and Stuart Perkins are enrolled members of the Red Lake Band of Ojibwe and are members of the Makwa Initiative, an Anishanaabe-led community of water protectors. > > Members of the Makwa Initiative are available on either Monday, Dec. 4 afternoon/evening or Tuesday, December 5th to speak to any area college groups or private organizations. Tuesday at 6:30pm will be their public presentation at Sinsinawa Mound. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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} } -------- Original message --------From: Champaign County Health Care Consumers Date: 11/26/17 14:47 (GMT-06:00) To: kmedina67 at gmail.com Subject: MONDAY 11/27 at 7 p.m. – Justice & Mental Health Collaboration Public Meeting Champaign County Health Care Consumers (CCHCC) View this email in your browser MONDAY 11/27 at 7 p.m. Justice and Mental Health Collaboration Public Meeting Dear Karen, You are invited to attend a special meeting on Monday, November 27, from 7 to 8 p.m. at the Champaign Public Library.   The meeting is sponsored by Champaign County’s Crisis Response Planning Committee, which includes CCHCC and is the governing body of a federally-funded project called the Justice & Mental Health Collaboration Program (JMHCP).   JMHCP funding was provided by the federal Department of Justice for the purposes of having our county carry out a planning project so that our community could figure out ways to improve our community’s responses to people with mental illness and/or substance abuse problems who interact with local law enforcement and the Champaign County Jail.   Purpose of the meeting The work of the planning project is complete. The purpose of Monday night’s meeting is to present the findings and recommendations to the public. These findings and recommendations, and some of the data-gathering systems put into place as a result of this project, can form the blue print or foundation for moving our county forward in addressing these issues.   This project represents unprecedented collaboration by mental health providers, substance abuse treatment providers, social service organizations, county government, law enforcement and the Sheriff’s Office, and many other stakeholders who do not normally collaborate to problem-solve.   You’re invited! Please come and learn about the work carried out over the past two years under the Justice & Mental Health Collaboration Program, and about the recommendations we are making for our community.   WHAT:  Public Meeting on Champaign County’s Justice & Mental Health Collaboration Program Summary   WHO:  Champaign County’s Crisis Response Planning Committee (the governing body of the Justice & Mental Health Collaboration Program)   WHEN:  Monday, November 27, 2017 from 7:00 to 8:00 p.m.   WHERE: Champaign Public Library – 200 W. Green Street – Robeson Rooms A & B   MISC:  Free parking • Near CU-MTD bus lines • Wheelchair accessible   For More Information: call (217) 693-4559   We hope to see y’all there!   Sincerely, Champaign County Health Care Consumers Facebook Twitter Website -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Nov 29 14:25:36 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 14:25:36 +0000 Subject: [Peace] Fwd: Journalists must be protected/Please sign the petition References: <3669370004.-470598865@wfc.wfcDB.reply.salsalabs.com> Message-ID: From: RootsAction Team > Subject: Journalists must be protected Date: November 29, 2017 at 06:14:02 PST Reply-To: > [https://salsa.wiredforchange.com/o/6503/images/RA_Header.jpg] Demand Reasonable Limits on "Russiagate" Investigations. [https://salsa.wiredforchange.com/o/6503/images/credico4EMAIL.jpg] [GRAPHIC: Sign here button] [https://salsa.wiredforchange.com/o/6503/images/btn_facebook_icon_sm.jpg] Share this action on Facebook [https://salsa.wiredforchange.com/o/6503/images/btn_twitter_icon_sm.jpg] Share this action on Twitter [https://salsa.wiredforchange.com/o/6503/images/donate3bucks200b.png] The House Intelligence Committee has invited and, when he declined, sent a subpoena to a progressive journalist who has interviewed WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange. The committee wants New York radio host Randy Credico to appear and be questioned on matters related to the committee's investigation into "Russian active measures directed at the 2016 U.S. election." And the committee is telling Credico to produce any records of anything related to the topic. Credico is a journalist who interviewed Assange, a journalist/publisher. With its explicit guarantees of a free press, the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution protects all journalists, including ones the government doesn’t like. Credico says that the only materials he has are his journalistic notes. At the same time, RootsAction has learned that the Senate Intelligence Committee has asked another witness to appear and to produce, among other things, documentation of any communications with anyone Russian -- not just with the government of Russia. It looks like this has gotten out of hand. Any investigation should have limits. When Congress appears to be targeting people for political purposes, including to needlessly worsen U.S.-Russia hostility, the U.S. public needs to stand up and put a stop to it. Journalism and legal interactions with people who are Russian simply are not crimes. It is up to us to demand that “Russiagate” investigations be conducted within reasonable limits and not become a tool for political theater and harassment of journalists or dissidents. Click here to sign the petition. After signing the petition, please use the tools on the next webpage to share it with your friends. This work is only possible with your financial support. Please chip in $3 now. -- The RootsAction.org Team P.S. RootsAction is an independent online force endorsed by Jim Hightower, Barbara Ehrenreich, Cornel West, Daniel Ellsberg, Glenn Greenwald, Naomi Klein, Bill Fletcher Jr., Laura Flanders, former U.S. Senator James Abourezk, Frances Fox Piven, Lila Garrett, Phil Donahue, Sonali Kolhatkar, and many others. Background: > Congressional Letter to Randy Credico > Flashpoints: Randy Credico Called To Testify > AlterNet: House Intel Committee to Subpoena Leftist Comedian and Civil Rights Activist Randy Credico in Russia Investigation > Dennis J Bernstein, Consortiumnews: Russia-gate Inquisitors Subpoena Journalist www.RootsAction.org [Donate button] [Facebook button] [Twitter button] Unsubscribe [empowered by Salsa] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Wed Nov 29 23:31:22 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 23:31:22 +0000 Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’m sorry, Carl I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it. I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either, because the focus on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch. Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran are extremely dangerous. On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM: ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. Charter. If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they - like the German leaders - would be hanged. The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most Americans don’t know that. In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, in order to get elected. But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars. When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they haven’t profited from them. John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOME Our representatives in Congress from this area - and their email addresses - are as follows: Representative Rodney Davis: > Senator Tammy Duckworth: > Senator Dick Durbin: > ~~~ ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income ~ _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cfc30480baf2b4882394b08d5376a458e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636475851934473412&sdata=0JBYxrD5cfjQzfDHk4PpLhvWxWn5Ce3B%2FBGNvILHbQI%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgestabrook at gmail.com Wed Nov 29 20:46:01 2017 From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 14:46:01 -0600 Subject: [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 Message-ID: PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM: ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. Charter. If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they - like the German leaders - would be hanged. The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most Americans don’t know that. In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, in order to get elected. But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars. When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they haven’t profited from them. John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOME Our representatives in Congress from this area - and their email addresses - are as follows: Representative Rodney Davis: Senator Tammy Duckworth: Senator Dick Durbin: ~~~ ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income ~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davegreen84 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 30 04:54:26 2017 From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 04:54:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <553893688.4455715.1512017666836@mail.yahoo.com> When Obama was President, many liberals wanted to blame others (Bush) for his policies, the hand he was dealt, etc. That was wrong, and needed to be counteracted, including by noting the delight that Obama took in using the military, drone strikes, etc. But Trump is now President, and he delights no less in the use of military force, although "only" Yemen stands as an egregious example. It may be important to counteract prevailing liberal wisdom by noting the institutional forces arrayed to influence Trump; but the alleged contrast between Trump and Obama becomes less convincing as the year moves to a close. It doesn't sound right anymore to see him as somehow opposed to or the victim of institutional forces. And it comes to seem like a double standard to have focused on Obama's personality as opposed to Trump's alleged powerlessness. It does matter that Trump is a genuinely creepy human being, although in his own way no more creepy than Obama. Plus, he's the President right now, and has a lot of power. DG On Wednesday, November 29, 2017, 5:32:10 PM CST, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: I’m sorry, Carl I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it. I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either, because the focus  on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch.   Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran are extremely dangerous.  On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM:ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. Charter.  If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they - like the German leaders - would be hanged.    The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most Americans don’t know that.  In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, in order to get elected. But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars. When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they haven’t profited from them.  John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOMEOur representatives in Congress from this area - and their email addresses - are as follows: Representative Rodney Davis: Senator Tammy Duckworth: Senator Dick Durbin: ~~~ ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income ~ _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cfc30480baf2b4882394b08d5376a458e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636475851934473412&sdata=0JBYxrD5cfjQzfDHk4PpLhvWxWn5Ce3B%2FBGNvILHbQI%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Nov 30 13:06:03 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 13:06:03 +0000 Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 In-Reply-To: <795D395D-B752-41A3-82ED-32B7DC7FEB1A@gmail.com> References: <795D395D-B752-41A3-82ED-32B7DC7FEB1A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Carl No one knows better than I, no one has spoken more about the powers behind the throne than I. I’m the one, with AWARE, who has been making the argument that any President who comes to power, as either a Republican or Democrat is going to implement the foreign policy plan put into place by the Oligarchs behind the throne. One of which was Brzezinski, just to keep it simple. As a Green socialist, who does not support the one Party system, Democrat/ Republican, once they get to DC. I have been highlighting the very fact, of the Pentagon, CIA, Council on Foreign Relations, Think Tanks, Corporations and Contractors as those pushing the US war agenda. But, to imply that Trump anymore than Obama is an unwitting dope of those who make up the “Deep State” “Military Industrial Complex,” however we wish to refer to them, is a mistake, most especially in the title of a flyer. Whether architects or rubber stamps of our foreign policy, they are all complicit. A FLYER is meant to impart information, but no one is going to read it, when it acts as an apology for Trump. He is as vile a creature as Clinton, in that he supported the rhetoric of lies and propaganda against Libya and Gaddafi. He is guilty of bombing Syria, and now provoking war with N Korea and Iran. Yes, he is attempting peace with Russia and China, he knows where a dollar is to be made. Though it matters not, when the plan is war with China, predicted by the Rand Think Tank and Pentagon in to be 2030. Our continued presence of Nato on the border of Russia is not going away. Roger has just proved my point. He has assessed us as Trump supporters, in spite of my statement, in spite of David Greens statement. What do you think people will think of AWARE, upon receipt of our flyer? And, as I said, focus on the election in order to bash the Clintons is also of no value. On Nov 29, 2017, at 18:29, C G Estabrook > wrote: The concentration on Trump is the strategy of the (pro-)War Party (the Pentagon, the 'intelligence community,' the Clinton campaign, the neocons) to force the government to continue the wars and war provocations of the last administrations. They think either Trump can be forced to fall in line with the war policy (as he shown he’s willing to do) under the threat of ‘Russiagate’ - or be replaced (with Pence, a War Party creature). The anti-war movement has to insist that Trump - the weakest president since Coolidge (“silent Cal,”|who followed the opposite performance strategy to Trump's bluster) - is not the problem, but that the continuing and largely unvaried Clinton-Bush-Obama war-making is. That's the policy that must be resisted. The War Party (who of course support that policy) is using Trump as a distraction from that policy. We should be opposing the Pentagon, the CIA, the Obama-Clintonists, the neocons, et al., who are promoting war provocations vs. Russia and China - not bothering much with the Potemkin president. John Pilger saw it clearly before the election: "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire.” —CGE On Nov 29, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Karen Aram via Peace > wrote: I’m sorry, Carl I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it. I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either, because the focus on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch. Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran are extremely dangerous. On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM: ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. Charter. If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they - like the German leaders - would be hanged. The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most Americans don’t know that. In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, in order to get elected. But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars. When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they haven’t profited from them. John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOME Our representatives in Congress from this area - and their email addresses - are as follows: Representative Rodney Davis: > Senator Tammy Duckworth: > Senator Dick Durbin: > ~~~ ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income ~ _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cfc30480baf2b4882394b08d5376a458e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636475851934473412&sdata=0JBYxrD5cfjQzfDHk4PpLhvWxWn5Ce3B%2FBGNvILHbQI%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davegreen84 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 30 14:39:33 2017 From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com (David Green) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 14:39:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 In-Reply-To: References: <795D395D-B752-41A3-82ED-32B7DC7FEB1A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <979452964.4663360.1512052774015@mail.yahoo.com> In any event, this language contrasts sharply with a flyer from two years ago, which holds Obama responsible: President Obama is makingwar in eight countries; he is sending American‘special forces’ into more than 100 countries around the world; he hasassassinated thousands  by drone - themost extreme terrorist campaign of modern times; and he is provoking war withRussia and China. I'm not sure how we can justify the difference in tone and substance regarding the warmaking "motivations" of Obama and Trump. On Thursday, November 30, 2017, 7:06:53 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: Carl No one knows better than I, no one has spoken more about the powers behind the throne than I. I’m the one, with AWARE, who has been making the argument that any President who comes to power, as either a Republican or Democrat is going to implement the foreign policy plan put into place by the Oligarchs behind the throne. One of which was Brzezinski, just to keep it simple.   As a Green socialist, who does not support the one Party system, Democrat/ Republican, once they get to DC. I have been highlighting the very fact, of the Pentagon, CIA, Council on Foreign Relations, Think Tanks, Corporations and Contractors as those pushing the US war agenda.  But, to imply that Trump anymore than Obama is an unwitting dope of those who make up the “Deep State” “Military Industrial Complex,” however we wish to refer to them, is a mistake, most especially in the title of a flyer. Whether architects or rubber stamps of our foreign policy, they are all complicit.  A FLYER is meant to impart information, but no one is going to read it, when it acts as an apology for Trump. He is as vile a creature as Clinton, in that he supported the rhetoric of lies and propaganda against Libya and Gaddafi. He is guilty of bombing Syria, and now provoking war with N Korea and Iran. Yes, he is attempting peace with Russia and China, he knows where a dollar is to be made. Though it matters not, when the plan is war with China, predicted by the Rand Think Tank and Pentagon in to be 2030. Our continued presence of Nato on the border of Russia is not going away. Roger has just proved my point. He has assessed us as Trump supporters, in spite of my statement, in spite of David Greens statement. What do you think people will think of AWARE, upon receipt of our flyer? And, as I said, focus on the election in order to bash the Clintons is also of no value.  On Nov 29, 2017, at 18:29, C G Estabrook wrote: The concentration on Trump is the strategy of the (pro-)War Party (the Pentagon, the 'intelligence community,' the Clinton campaign, the neocons) to force the government to continue the wars and war provocations of the last administrations. They think either Trump can be forced to fall in line with the war policy (as he shown he’s willing to do) under the threat of ‘Russiagate’ - or be replaced (with Pence, a War Party creature).  The anti-war movement has to insist that Trump - the weakest president since Coolidge (“silent Cal,”|who followed the opposite performance strategy to Trump's bluster) - is not the problem, but that the continuing and largely unvaried Clinton-Bush-Obama war-making is. That's the policy that must be resisted.  The War Party (who of course support that policy) is using Trump as a distraction from that policy.  We should be opposing the Pentagon, the CIA, the Obama-Clintonists, the neocons, et al., who are promoting war provocations vs. Russia and China - not bothering much with the Potemkin president.  John Pilger saw it clearly before the election: "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire.” —CGE   On Nov 29, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: I’m sorry, Carl I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it. I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either, because the focus  on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch.   Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran are extremely dangerous.  On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM:ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. Charter.  If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they - like the German leaders - would be hanged.    The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most Americans don’t know that.  In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, in order to get elected. But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars. When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they haven’t profited from them.  John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOMEOur representatives in Congress from this area - and their email addresses - are as follows: Representative Rodney Davis: Senator Tammy Duckworth: Senator Dick Durbin: ~~~ ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income ~ _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cfc30480baf2b4882394b08d5376a458e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636475851934473412&sdata=0JBYxrD5cfjQzfDHk4PpLhvWxWn5Ce3B%2FBGNvILHbQI%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Nov 30 15:15:03 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 15:15:03 +0000 Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 In-Reply-To: References: <795D395D-B752-41A3-82ED-32B7DC7FEB1A@gmail.com> <979452964.4663360.1512052774015@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: We should be informing people, when it comes to flyers, of what the USG is doing. Most Americans aren’t aware that we are in eight wars, with potential for two more. Oh yes, they all know how awful the N. Korean leader is, they all fear Iran having nuclear weapons, but do they know there is a solution to the N. Korean problem, one for which we the US could implement, but refuses to do so. Do the American people know that we are in the process of savaging Africa, again? Do they know the US is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world? Carl, these are all things you have talked about, and placed in flyers before. Focusing on individuals to blame, is a tactic that alienates and divides a people. If you were writing an article to be published, or on FB thats one thing, but a flyer representing an organization, should merely paraphrase what the USG is doing in respect to war. > On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:03, C G Estabrook wrote: > > That earlier flyer was meant to combat Obama’s squeaky-clean image, which he was good at fostering while he administered “the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times." > > . > > And see the puff-piece on his 'toughness’: . > > But I don’t think anyone contends that US world-wide mass murder post-WWII is a matter of presidential caprice, even if they could have acted differently. > > Neither Obama nor Trump had to send tens of thousands more troops to Afghanistan (as they did) after running as critics of the war (as they did). > > Condemning and opposing US war-making doesn’t depend on affixing individual responsibility. (Was Truman responsible for Hiroshima? Yes. Alone? No.) > > —CGE > > >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 8:39 AM, David Green via Peace wrote: >> >> In any event, this language contrasts sharply with a flyer from two years ago, which holds Obama responsible: >> >> President Obama is making war in eight countries; he is sending American ‘special forces’ into more than 100 countries around the world; he has assassinated thousands by drone - the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times; and he is provoking war with Russia and China. >> >> I'm not sure how we can justify the difference in tone and substance regarding the warmaking "motivations" of Obama and Trump. >> >> On Thursday, November 30, 2017, 7:06:53 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> >> Carl >> >> No one knows better than I, no one has spoken more about the powers behind the throne than I. I’m the one, with AWARE, who has been making the argument that any President who comes to power, as either a Republican or Democrat is going to implement the foreign policy plan put into place by the Oligarchs behind the throne. One of which was Brzezinski, just to keep it simple. >> >> As a Green socialist, who does not support the one Party system, Democrat/ Republican, once they get to DC. I have been highlighting the very fact, of the Pentagon, CIA, Council on Foreign Relations, Think Tanks, Corporations and Contractors as those pushing the US war agenda. >> >> But, to imply that Trump anymore than Obama is an unwitting dope of those who make up the “Deep State” “Military Industrial Complex,” however we wish to refer to them, is a mistake, most especially in the title of a flyer. Whether architects or rubber stamps of our foreign policy, they are all complicit. >> >> A FLYER is meant to impart information, but no one is going to read it, when it acts as an apology for Trump. He is as vile a creature as Clinton, in that he supported the rhetoric of lies and propaganda against Libya and Gaddafi. He is guilty of bombing Syria, and now provoking war with N Korea and Iran. Yes, he is attempting peace with Russia and China, he knows where a dollar is to be made. Though it matters not, when the plan is war with China, predicted by the Rand Think Tank and Pentagon in to be 2030. Our continued presence of Nato on the border of Russia is not going away. >> >> Roger has just proved my point. He has assessed us as Trump supporters, in spite of my statement, in spite of David Greens statement. What do you think people will think of AWARE, upon receipt of our flyer? And, as I said, focus on the election in order to bash the Clintons is also of no value. >> >> >>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 18:29, C G Estabrook wrote: >>> >>> The concentration on Trump is the strategy of the (pro-)War Party (the Pentagon, the 'intelligence community,' the Clinton campaign, the neocons) to force the government to continue the wars and war provocations of the last administrations. They think either Trump can be forced to fall in line with the war policy (as he shown he’s willing to do) under the threat of ‘Russiagate’ - or be replaced (with Pence, a War Party creature). >>> >>> The anti-war movement has to insist that Trump - the weakest president since Coolidge (“silent Cal,”|who followed the opposite performance strategy to Trump's bluster) - is not the problem, but that the continuing and largely unvaried Clinton-Bush-Obama war-making is. That's the policy that must be resisted. The War Party (who of course support that policy) is using Trump as a distraction from that policy. >>> >>> We should be opposing the Pentagon, the CIA, the Obama-Clintonists, the neocons, et al., who are promoting war provocations vs. Russia and China - not bothering much with the Potemkin president. >>> >>> John Pilger saw it clearly before the election: "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire.” —CGE >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >>>> >>>> I’m sorry, Carl >>>> >>>> I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it. >>>> >>>> I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either, because the focus on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch. >>>> >>>> Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran are extremely dangerous. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>> >>>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM: >>>>> ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE >>>>> >>>>> The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. Charter. >>>>> >>>>> If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they - like the German leaders - would be hanged. >>>>> >>>>> The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most Americans don’t know that. In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. >>>>> >>>>> President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. >>>>> >>>>> What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, in order to get elected. >>>>> >>>>> But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars. >>>>> >>>>> When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they haven’t profited from them. >>>>> >>>>> John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." >>>>> >>>>> We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. >>>>> >>>>> WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOME >>>>> Our representatives in Congress from this area - and their email addresses - are as follows: >>>>> >>>>> Representative Rodney Davis: >>>>> Senator Tammy Duckworth: >>>>> Senator Dick Durbin: >>>>> >>>>> ~~~ >>>>> >>>>> ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at >>>>> ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income ~ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cfc30480baf2b4882394b08d5376a458e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636475851934473412&sdata=0JBYxrD5cfjQzfDHk4PpLhvWxWn5Ce3B%2FBGNvILHbQI%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace mailing list >>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=xazvoaiiZfeKwnoLWr0%2BQ7zDKzK11UmSbVoB97gFtjE%3D&reserved=0 >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 > From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Nov 30 17:26:01 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 17:26:01 +0000 Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 In-Reply-To: <7AF7A515-7D8F-4C6E-A8A6-85E851F33882@gmail.com> References: <795D395D-B752-41A3-82ED-32B7DC7FEB1A@gmail.com> <979452964.4663360.1512052774015@mail.yahoo.com> <7AF7A515-7D8F-4C6E-A8A6-85E851F33882@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, it is a distraction, and I have argued this point with those who suggest it, other than for war, which no one suggests, and actually might be worthwhile. However, I’ll say it again, it’s totally counterproductive to the anti-war movement and our demonstration. I have another appointment on Saturday so don’t plan to attend our demonstration. End of conversation on this topic, on my part. PS Even Peter Lavalle of Crosstalk, who supported Trump vs. Hillary, has now stated emphatically, "he is glad Hillary is not President, but he in no way supports Trump given what he is doing.” > On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:42, C G Estabrook wrote: > > I agree that we should focus on "what the USG is doing in respect to war.” > > That’s why ‘Impeach Trump’ is a distraction - a purposeful distraction, by the those calling for continuity in US fp and war-making. > > >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> We should be informing people, when it comes to flyers, of what the USG is doing. >> Most Americans aren’t aware that we are in eight wars, with potential for two more. >> Oh yes, they all know how awful the N. Korean leader is, they all fear Iran having nuclear weapons, but do they know there is a solution to the N. Korean problem, one for which we the US could implement, but refuses to do so. >> >> Do the American people know that we are in the process of savaging Africa, again? >> Do they know the US is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world? >> >> Carl, these are all things you have talked about, and placed in flyers before. >> >> Focusing on individuals to blame, is a tactic that alienates and divides a people. If you were writing an article to be published, or on FB thats one thing, but a flyer representing an organization, should merely paraphrase what the USG is doing in respect to war. >> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:03, C G Estabrook wrote: >>> >>> That earlier flyer was meant to combat Obama’s squeaky-clean image, which he was good at fostering while he administered “the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times." >>> >>> . >>> >>> And see the puff-piece on his 'toughness’: . >>> >>> But I don’t think anyone contends that US world-wide mass murder post-WWII is a matter of presidential caprice, even if they could have acted differently. >>> >>> Neither Obama nor Trump had to send tens of thousands more troops to Afghanistan (as they did) after running as critics of the war (as they did). >>> >>> Condemning and opposing US war-making doesn’t depend on affixing individual responsibility. (Was Truman responsible for Hiroshima? Yes. Alone? No.) >>> >>> —CGE >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 8:39 AM, David Green via Peace wrote: >>>> >>>> In any event, this language contrasts sharply with a flyer from two years ago, which holds Obama responsible: >>>> >>>> President Obama is making war in eight countries; he is sending American ‘special forces’ into more than 100 countries around the world; he has assassinated thousands by drone - the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times; and he is provoking war with Russia and China. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure how we can justify the difference in tone and substance regarding the warmaking "motivations" of Obama and Trump. >>>> >>>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017, 7:06:53 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Carl >>>> >>>> No one knows better than I, no one has spoken more about the powers behind the throne than I. I’m the one, with AWARE, who has been making the argument that any President who comes to power, as either a Republican or Democrat is going to implement the foreign policy plan put into place by the Oligarchs behind the throne. One of which was Brzezinski, just to keep it simple. >>>> >>>> As a Green socialist, who does not support the one Party system, Democrat/ Republican, once they get to DC. I have been highlighting the very fact, of the Pentagon, CIA, Council on Foreign Relations, Think Tanks, Corporations and Contractors as those pushing the US war agenda. >>>> >>>> But, to imply that Trump anymore than Obama is an unwitting dope of those who make up the “Deep State” “Military Industrial Complex,” however we wish to refer to them, is a mistake, most especially in the title of a flyer. Whether architects or rubber stamps of our foreign policy, they are all complicit. >>>> >>>> A FLYER is meant to impart information, but no one is going to read it, when it acts as an apology for Trump. He is as vile a creature as Clinton, in that he supported the rhetoric of lies and propaganda against Libya and Gaddafi. He is guilty of bombing Syria, and now provoking war with N Korea and Iran. Yes, he is attempting peace with Russia and China, he knows where a dollar is to be made. Though it matters not, when the plan is war with China, predicted by the Rand Think Tank and Pentagon in to be 2030. Our continued presence of Nato on the border of Russia is not going away. >>>> >>>> Roger has just proved my point. He has assessed us as Trump supporters, in spite of my statement, in spite of David Greens statement. What do you think people will think of AWARE, upon receipt of our flyer? And, as I said, focus on the election in order to bash the Clintons is also of no value. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 18:29, C G Estabrook wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The concentration on Trump is the strategy of the (pro-)War Party (the Pentagon, the 'intelligence community,' the Clinton campaign, the neocons) to force the government to continue the wars and war provocations of the last administrations. They think either Trump can be forced to fall in line with the war policy (as he shown he’s willing to do) under the threat of ‘Russiagate’ - or be replaced (with Pence, a War Party creature). >>>>> >>>>> The anti-war movement has to insist that Trump - the weakest president since Coolidge (“silent Cal,”|who followed the opposite performance strategy to Trump's bluster) - is not the problem, but that the continuing and largely unvaried Clinton-Bush-Obama war-making is. That's the policy that must be resisted. The War Party (who of course support that policy) is using Trump as a distraction from that policy. >>>>> >>>>> We should be opposing the Pentagon, the CIA, the Obama-Clintonists, the neocons, et al., who are promoting war provocations vs. Russia and China - not bothering much with the Potemkin president. >>>>> >>>>> John Pilger saw it clearly before the election: "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire.” —CGE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m sorry, Carl >>>>>> >>>>>> I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either, because the focus on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch. >>>>>> >>>>>> Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran are extremely dangerous. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM: >>>>>>> ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. Charter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they - like the German leaders - would be hanged. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most Americans don’t know that. In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, in order to get elected. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they haven’t profited from them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOME >>>>>>> Our representatives in Congress from this area - and their email addresses - are as follows: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Representative Rodney Davis: >>>>>>> Senator Tammy Duckworth: >>>>>>> Senator Dick Durbin: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ~~~ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at >>>>>>> ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income ~ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cfc30480baf2b4882394b08d5376a458e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636475851934473412&sdata=0JBYxrD5cfjQzfDHk4PpLhvWxWn5Ce3B%2FBGNvILHbQI%3D&reserved=0 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Peace mailing list >>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=xazvoaiiZfeKwnoLWr0%2BQ7zDKzK11UmSbVoB97gFtjE%3D&reserved=0 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace mailing list >>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C1510d4a9e78e4ab02a0f08d538090865%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476533794287026&sdata=1gLoCzw4EfQ1ZonM6wynHGMKl4R%2FZ9tvCrtiZBxZTpo%3D&reserved=0 From mickalideh at gmail.com Thu Nov 30 18:31:21 2017 From: mickalideh at gmail.com (Harry Mickalide) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 12:31:21 -0600 Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 In-Reply-To: References: <795D395D-B752-41A3-82ED-32B7DC7FEB1A@gmail.com> <979452964.4663360.1512052774015@mail.yahoo.com> <7AF7A515-7D8F-4C6E-A8A6-85E851F33882@gmail.com> Message-ID: I still think a better simpler flyer would look like this: Projected annual cost for universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income: $X Annual military budget: $600 billion On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Karen Aram via Peace < peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > Yes, it is a distraction, and I have argued this point with those who > suggest it, other than for war, which no one suggests, and actually might > be worthwhile. > > However, I’ll say it again, it’s totally counterproductive to the anti-war > movement and our demonstration. > > I have another appointment on Saturday so don’t plan to attend our > demonstration. > > End of conversation on this topic, on my part. > > PS Even Peter Lavalle of Crosstalk, who supported Trump vs. Hillary, has > now stated emphatically, "he is glad Hillary is not President, but he in no > way supports Trump given what he is doing.” > > > On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:42, C G Estabrook wrote: > > > > I agree that we should focus on "what the USG is doing in respect to > war.” > > > > That’s why ‘Impeach Trump’ is a distraction - a purposeful distraction, > by the those calling for continuity in US fp and war-making. > > > > > >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > >> > >> We should be informing people, when it comes to flyers, of what the USG > is doing. > >> Most Americans aren’t aware that we are in eight wars, with potential > for two more. > >> Oh yes, they all know how awful the N. Korean leader is, they all fear > Iran having nuclear weapons, but do they know there is a solution to the N. > Korean problem, one for which we the US could implement, but refuses to do > so. > >> > >> Do the American people know that we are in the process of savaging > Africa, again? > >> Do they know the US is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world? > >> > >> Carl, these are all things you have talked about, and placed in flyers > before. > >> > >> Focusing on individuals to blame, is a tactic that alienates and > divides a people. If you were writing an article to be published, or on FB > thats one thing, but a flyer representing an organization, should merely > paraphrase what the USG is doing in respect to war. > >> > >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:03, C G Estabrook > wrote: > >>> > >>> That earlier flyer was meant to combat Obama’s squeaky-clean image, > which he was good at fostering while he administered “the most extreme > terrorist campaign of modern times." > >>> > >>> https%3A%2F%2Fwww.commondreams.org%2Fnews%2F2015%2F01%2F19%2Fnoam- > chomsky-obamas-drone-program-most-extreme-terrorist- > campaign-modern-times&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com% > 7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa > aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=hTjN23pUJtWprTOOgI5SDxa8U20Zi1 > AJ9WKIOK8m6zM%3D&reserved=0> . > >>> > >>> And see the puff-piece on his 'toughness’: protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com% > 2F2012%2F05%2F29%2Fworld%2Fobamas-leadership-in-war-on- > al-qaeda.html&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com% > 7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa > aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=NixKmaCjl2DD%2FULwArRx% > 2FjLU6vWOmH%2BFZ8s%2FLV5hvL4%3D&reserved=0>. > >>> > >>> But I don’t think anyone contends that US world-wide mass murder > post-WWII is a matter of presidential caprice, even if they could have > acted differently. > >>> > >>> Neither Obama nor Trump had to send tens of thousands more troops to > Afghanistan (as they did) after running as critics of the war (as they did). > >>> > >>> Condemning and opposing US war-making doesn’t depend on affixing > individual responsibility. (Was Truman responsible for Hiroshima? Yes. > Alone? No.) > >>> > >>> —CGE > >>> > >>> > >>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 8:39 AM, David Green via Peace < > peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> In any event, this language contrasts sharply with a flyer from two > years ago, which holds Obama responsible: > >>>> > >>>> President Obama is making war in eight countries; he is sending > American ‘special forces’ into more than 100 countries around the world; he > has assassinated thousands by drone - the most extreme terrorist campaign > of modern times; and he is provoking war with Russia and China. > >>>> > >>>> I'm not sure how we can justify the difference in tone and substance > regarding the warmaking "motivations" of Obama and Trump. > >>>> > >>>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017, 7:06:53 AM CST, Karen Aram via > Peace-discuss wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Carl > >>>> > >>>> No one knows better than I, no one has spoken more about the powers > behind the throne than I. I’m the one, with AWARE, who has been making the > argument that any President who comes to power, as either a Republican or > Democrat is going to implement the foreign policy plan put into place by > the Oligarchs behind the throne. One of which was Brzezinski, just to keep > it simple. > >>>> > >>>> As a Green socialist, who does not support the one Party system, > Democrat/ Republican, once they get to DC. I have been highlighting the > very fact, of the Pentagon, CIA, Council on Foreign Relations, Think Tanks, > Corporations and Contractors as those pushing the US war agenda. > >>>> > >>>> But, to imply that Trump anymore than Obama is an unwitting dope of > those who make up the “Deep State” “Military Industrial Complex,” however > we wish to refer to them, is a mistake, most especially in the title of a > flyer. Whether architects or rubber stamps of our foreign policy, they are > all complicit. > >>>> > >>>> A FLYER is meant to impart information, but no one is going to read > it, when it acts as an apology for Trump. He is as vile a creature as > Clinton, in that he supported the rhetoric of lies and propaganda against > Libya and Gaddafi. He is guilty of bombing Syria, and now provoking war > with N Korea and Iran. Yes, he is attempting peace with Russia and China, > he knows where a dollar is to be made. Though it matters not, when the plan > is war with China, predicted by the Rand Think Tank and Pentagon in to be > 2030. Our continued presence of Nato on the border of Russia is not going > away. > >>>> > >>>> Roger has just proved my point. He has assessed us as Trump > supporters, in spite of my statement, in spite of David Greens statement. > What do you think people will think of AWARE, upon receipt of our flyer? > And, as I said, focus on the election in order to bash the Clintons is also > of no value. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 18:29, C G Estabrook > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> The concentration on Trump is the strategy of the (pro-)War Party > (the Pentagon, the 'intelligence community,' the Clinton campaign, the > neocons) to force the government to continue the wars and war provocations > of the last administrations. They think either Trump can be forced to fall > in line with the war policy (as he shown he’s willing to do) under the > threat of ‘Russiagate’ - or be replaced (with Pence, a War Party creature). > >>>>> > >>>>> The anti-war movement has to insist that Trump - the weakest > president since Coolidge (“silent Cal,”|who followed the opposite > performance strategy to Trump's bluster) - is not the problem, but that the > continuing and largely unvaried Clinton-Bush-Obama war-making is. That's > the policy that must be resisted. The War Party (who of course support > that policy) is using Trump as a distraction from that policy. > >>>>> > >>>>> We should be opposing the Pentagon, the CIA, the Obama-Clintonists, > the neocons, et al., who are promoting war provocations vs. Russia and > China - not bothering much with the Potemkin president. > >>>>> > >>>>> John Pilger saw it clearly before the election: "The CIA has > demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not > elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless > low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. > These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the > multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains > its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with > China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great > power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were > the issues not so dire.” —CGE > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Karen Aram via Peace < > peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I’m sorry, Carl > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump > defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our > wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it > sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either, > because the focus on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump > is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted > every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also > impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in > power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran > are extremely dangerous. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM: > >>>>>>> ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s > doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. > Charter. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders > were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they > - like the German leaders - would be hanged. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and > African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and > Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). > Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most > Americans don’t know that. In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special > Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the > world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and > murder. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in > office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest > war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and > non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a > “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, > most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see > the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, > in order to get elected. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged > major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s > wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have > killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that > control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they > haven’t profited from them. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded Trump > is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The > pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent > Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These > tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar > business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be > undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. > Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – > however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops > (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical > care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans > immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOME > >>>>>>> Our representatives in Congress from this area - and their email > addresses - are as follows: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Representative Rodney Davis: protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Frodneydavis. > house.gov%2Fcontact%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com% > 7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa > aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=xcTtdbDasaZ5ilKiNEHR7Eawu6IvnW > L2bnj9ZsA8q2U%3D&reserved=0> > >>>>>>> Senator Tammy Duckworth: protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.duckworth. > senate.gov%2Fcontent%2Fcontact-senator&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail. > com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa > aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=ugx3F6jNnTw2LpZoBcxfPI9o9834% > 2FbvN0Itn3y%2Fe4dc%3D&reserved=0> > >>>>>>> Senator Dick Durbin: protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.durbin. > senate.gov%2Fcontact%2Femail&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com% > 7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa > aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=kNZmKv% > 2F0gLlwP8CkdtxIgicnw89CR2e3c%2FllkENOnJg%3D&reserved=0> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ~~~ > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at Urbana Illinois> > >>>>>>> ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ > Universal basic income ~ > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list > >>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > >>>>>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo% > 2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com% > 7Cfc30480baf2b4882394b08d5376a458e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa > aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636475851934473412&sdata=0JBYxrD5cfjQzfDHk4PpLhvWxWn5Ce > 3B%2FBGNvILHbQI%3D&reserved=0 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Peace mailing list > >>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net > >>>>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo% > 2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com% > 7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa > aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOs > P2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list > >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo% > 2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com% > 7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa > aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=xazvoaiiZfeKwnoLWr0% > 2BQ7zDKzK11UmSbVoB97gFtjE%3D&reserved=0 > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Peace mailing list > >>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net > >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo% > 2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com% > 7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa > aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOs > P2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Peace-discuss mailing list > >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo% > 2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com% > 7C1510d4a9e78e4ab02a0f08d538090865%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa > aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476533794287026&sdata=1gLoCzw4EfQ1ZonM6wynHGMKl4R% > 2FZ9tvCrtiZBxZTpo%3D&reserved=0 > > _______________________________________________ > Peace mailing list > Peace at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mickalideh at gmail.com Thu Nov 30 18:32:41 2017 From: mickalideh at gmail.com (Harry Mickalide) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 12:32:41 -0600 Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 In-Reply-To: References: <795D395D-B752-41A3-82ED-32B7DC7FEB1A@gmail.com> <979452964.4663360.1512052774015@mail.yahoo.com> <7AF7A515-7D8F-4C6E-A8A6-85E851F33882@gmail.com> Message-ID: a simple striking fact that sticks in one's head rather than a wall of information that few will read On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 12:31 PM, Harry Mickalide wrote: > I still think a better simpler flyer would look like this: > > Projected annual cost for universal healthcare, free college, and > universal basic income: $X > > Annual military budget: $600 billion > > On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Karen Aram via Peace < > peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > >> Yes, it is a distraction, and I have argued this point with those who >> suggest it, other than for war, which no one suggests, and actually might >> be worthwhile. >> >> However, I’ll say it again, it’s totally counterproductive to the >> anti-war movement and our demonstration. >> >> I have another appointment on Saturday so don’t plan to attend our >> demonstration. >> >> End of conversation on this topic, on my part. >> >> PS Even Peter Lavalle of Crosstalk, who supported Trump vs. Hillary, has >> now stated emphatically, "he is glad Hillary is not President, but he in no >> way supports Trump given what he is doing.” >> >> > On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:42, C G Estabrook wrote: >> > >> > I agree that we should focus on "what the USG is doing in respect to >> war.” >> > >> > That’s why ‘Impeach Trump’ is a distraction - a purposeful distraction, >> by the those calling for continuity in US fp and war-making. >> > >> > >> >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss < >> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> We should be informing people, when it comes to flyers, of what the >> USG is doing. >> >> Most Americans aren’t aware that we are in eight wars, with potential >> for two more. >> >> Oh yes, they all know how awful the N. Korean leader is, they all fear >> Iran having nuclear weapons, but do they know there is a solution to the N. >> Korean problem, one for which we the US could implement, but refuses to do >> so. >> >> >> >> Do the American people know that we are in the process of savaging >> Africa, again? >> >> Do they know the US is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world? >> >> >> >> Carl, these are all things you have talked about, and placed in flyers >> before. >> >> >> >> Focusing on individuals to blame, is a tactic that alienates and >> divides a people. If you were writing an article to be published, or on FB >> thats one thing, but a flyer representing an organization, should merely >> paraphrase what the USG is doing in respect to war. >> >> >> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:03, C G Estabrook >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> That earlier flyer was meant to combat Obama’s squeaky-clean image, >> which he was good at fostering while he administered “the most extreme >> terrorist campaign of modern times." >> >>> >> >>> > A%2F%2Fwww.commondreams.org%2Fnews%2F2015%2F01%2F19%2Fnoam- >> chomsky-obamas-drone-program-most-extreme-terrorist- >> campaign-modern-times&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail. >> com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa >> aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=hTjN23pUJtWprTOOgI5S >> Dxa8U20Zi1AJ9WKIOK8m6zM%3D&reserved=0> . >> >>> >> >>> And see the puff-piece on his 'toughness’: < >> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A >> %2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2012%2F05%2F29%2Fworld%2Fobamas-lea >> dership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40h >> otmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f6 >> 40afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata= >> NixKmaCjl2DD%2FULwArRx%2FjLU6vWOmH%2BFZ8s%2FLV5hvL4%3D&reserved=0>. >> >>> >> >>> But I don’t think anyone contends that US world-wide mass murder >> post-WWII is a matter of presidential caprice, even if they could have >> acted differently. >> >>> >> >>> Neither Obama nor Trump had to send tens of thousands more troops to >> Afghanistan (as they did) after running as critics of the war (as they did). >> >>> >> >>> Condemning and opposing US war-making doesn’t depend on affixing >> individual responsibility. (Was Truman responsible for Hiroshima? Yes. >> Alone? No.) >> >>> >> >>> —CGE >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 8:39 AM, David Green via Peace < >> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> In any event, this language contrasts sharply with a flyer from two >> years ago, which holds Obama responsible: >> >>>> >> >>>> President Obama is making war in eight countries; he is sending >> American ‘special forces’ into more than 100 countries around the world; he >> has assassinated thousands by drone - the most extreme terrorist campaign >> of modern times; and he is provoking war with Russia and China. >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm not sure how we can justify the difference in tone and substance >> regarding the warmaking "motivations" of Obama and Trump. >> >>>> >> >>>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017, 7:06:53 AM CST, Karen Aram via >> Peace-discuss wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Carl >> >>>> >> >>>> No one knows better than I, no one has spoken more about the powers >> behind the throne than I. I’m the one, with AWARE, who has been making the >> argument that any President who comes to power, as either a Republican or >> Democrat is going to implement the foreign policy plan put into place by >> the Oligarchs behind the throne. One of which was Brzezinski, just to keep >> it simple. >> >>>> >> >>>> As a Green socialist, who does not support the one Party system, >> Democrat/ Republican, once they get to DC. I have been highlighting the >> very fact, of the Pentagon, CIA, Council on Foreign Relations, Think Tanks, >> Corporations and Contractors as those pushing the US war agenda. >> >>>> >> >>>> But, to imply that Trump anymore than Obama is an unwitting dope of >> those who make up the “Deep State” “Military Industrial Complex,” however >> we wish to refer to them, is a mistake, most especially in the title of a >> flyer. Whether architects or rubber stamps of our foreign policy, they are >> all complicit. >> >>>> >> >>>> A FLYER is meant to impart information, but no one is going to read >> it, when it acts as an apology for Trump. He is as vile a creature as >> Clinton, in that he supported the rhetoric of lies and propaganda against >> Libya and Gaddafi. He is guilty of bombing Syria, and now provoking war >> with N Korea and Iran. Yes, he is attempting peace with Russia and China, >> he knows where a dollar is to be made. Though it matters not, when the plan >> is war with China, predicted by the Rand Think Tank and Pentagon in to be >> 2030. Our continued presence of Nato on the border of Russia is not going >> away. >> >>>> >> >>>> Roger has just proved my point. He has assessed us as Trump >> supporters, in spite of my statement, in spite of David Greens statement. >> What do you think people will think of AWARE, upon receipt of our flyer? >> And, as I said, focus on the election in order to bash the Clintons is also >> of no value. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 18:29, C G Estabrook >> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The concentration on Trump is the strategy of the (pro-)War Party >> (the Pentagon, the 'intelligence community,' the Clinton campaign, the >> neocons) to force the government to continue the wars and war provocations >> of the last administrations. They think either Trump can be forced to fall >> in line with the war policy (as he shown he’s willing to do) under the >> threat of ‘Russiagate’ - or be replaced (with Pence, a War Party creature). >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The anti-war movement has to insist that Trump - the weakest >> president since Coolidge (“silent Cal,”|who followed the opposite >> performance strategy to Trump's bluster) - is not the problem, but that the >> continuing and largely unvaried Clinton-Bush-Obama war-making is. That's >> the policy that must be resisted. The War Party (who of course support >> that policy) is using Trump as a distraction from that policy. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> We should be opposing the Pentagon, the CIA, the Obama-Clintonists, >> the neocons, et al., who are promoting war provocations vs. Russia and >> China - not bothering much with the Potemkin president. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> John Pilger saw it clearly before the election: "The CIA has >> demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not >> elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless >> low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. >> These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the >> multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains >> its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with >> China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great >> power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were >> the issues not so dire.” —CGE >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Karen Aram via Peace < >> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I’m sorry, Carl >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump >> defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our >> wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it >> sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either, >> because the focus on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump >> is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted >> every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also >> impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in >> power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran >> are extremely dangerous. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss < >> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM: >> >>>>>>> ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s >> doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. >> Charter. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders >> were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they >> - like the German leaders - would be hanged. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and >> African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and >> Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). >> Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most >> Americans don’t know that. In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special >> Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the >> world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and >> murder. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in >> office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest >> war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and >> non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a >> “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, >> most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see >> the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, >> in order to get elected. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the >> wars. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged >> major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s >> wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have >> killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that >> control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they >> haven’t profited from them. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded >> Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. >> The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent >> Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These >> tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar >> business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be >> undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. >> Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – >> however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops >> (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical >> care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans >> immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOME >> >>>>>>> Our representatives in Congress from this area - and their email >> addresses - are as follows: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Representative Rodney Davis: > ction.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Frodneydavis.house.gov%2 >> Fcontact%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae7 >> 6fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa >> aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=xcTtdbDasaZ5ilKiNEHR >> 7Eawu6IvnWL2bnj9ZsA8q2U%3D&reserved=0> >> >>>>>>> Senator Tammy Duckworth: > ction.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.duckworth.senate.go >> v%2Fcontent%2Fcontact-senator&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram% >> 40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8% >> 7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637 >> 620&sdata=ugx3F6jNnTw2LpZoBcxfPI9o9834%2FbvN0Itn3y%2Fe4dc%3D&reserved=0> >> >>>>>>> Senator Dick Durbin: > ction.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.durbin.senate.gov%2 >> Fcontact%2Femail&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com% >> 7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaa >> aaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=kNZmKv%2F0gLlwP >> 8CkdtxIgicnw89CR2e3c%2FllkENOnJg%3D&reserved=0> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> ~~~ >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at > Urbana Illinois> >> >>>>>>> ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ >> Universal basic income ~ >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >> >>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> >>>>>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A >> %2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discus >> s&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cfc30480baf2b48 >> 82394b08d5376a458e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1% >> 7C0%7C636475851934473412&sdata=0JBYxrD5cfjQzfDHk4PpLhvWxWn5C >> e3B%2FBGNvILHbQI%3D&reserved=0 >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> Peace mailing list >> >>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> >>>>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A >> %2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data= >> 02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5 >> 380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0% >> 7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOs >> P2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >> >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A >> %2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discus >> s&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a42 >> 30b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1% >> 7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=xazvoaiiZfeKwnoLWr0%2BQ7zDKzK >> 11UmSbVoB97gFtjE%3D&reserved=0 >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> Peace mailing list >> >>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A >> %2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data= >> 02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5 >> 380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0% >> 7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOs >> P2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A >> %2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discus >> s&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C1510d4a9e78e4a >> b02a0f08d538090865%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1% >> 7C0%7C636476533794287026&sdata=1gLoCzw4EfQ1ZonM6wynHGMKl4R% >> 2FZ9tvCrtiZBxZTpo%3D&reserved=0 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Nov 30 19:15:46 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 19:15:46 +0000 Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 In-Reply-To: <04FF46D8-9558-49D6-891A-AAC4FFBBC6B0@illinois.edu> References: <795D395D-B752-41A3-82ED-32B7DC7FEB1A@gmail.com> <979452964.4663360.1512052774015@mail.yahoo.com> <7AF7A515-7D8F-4C6E-A8A6-85E851F33882@gmail.com> <04FF46D8-9558-49D6-891A-AAC4FFBBC6B0@illinois.edu> Message-ID: Harry is correct, keeping it simple is best, not my skill set. He is also correct that focus on the monetary cost of war and intervention to US domestic social services, including healthcare, education, etc. appeals to most people, so should always be mentioned. A total focus on costs of war, isn’t really us, but it does need to be mentioned. How can we overlook the genocide taking place in Yemen, or the slavery in Libya of Black Africans as a result of the US destruction of that nation in 2011. It’s now being used as a cause for military intervention, again, basically bringing more troops in than those we’ve already had there. Trump has announced more troops in Afghanistan, and Col. Larry Wilkerson has predicted we will be there forever, due to China’s economic progress in that region. Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around the globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation. In relation to Africa (the sahel, in particular) the fourteen nations previously colonized by France, and again being recolonized by way of military occupation, the US is involved in all, because the French military is incapable, just as is the Saudi military, without US military technical, and logistical support. On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:40, Carl G. Estabrook > wrote: The US should in fact be spending much more on war than the current military budget - paying reparations for the damage we've done and the people we’ve killed in the wars of the current generation. But it’s not the case that war spending means we can’t afford universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income. The USG can’t run out of money. No one refuses a check signed by the US government. —CGE On Nov 30, 2017, at 12:31 PM, Harry Mickalide via Peace-discuss > wrote: I still think a better simpler flyer would look like this: Projected annual cost for universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income: $X Annual military budget: $600 billion On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Karen Aram via Peace > wrote: Yes, it is a distraction, and I have argued this point with those who suggest it, other than for war, which no one suggests, and actually might be worthwhile. However, I’ll say it again, it’s totally counterproductive to the anti-war movement and our demonstration. I have another appointment on Saturday so don’t plan to attend our demonstration. End of conversation on this topic, on my part. PS Even Peter Lavalle of Crosstalk, who supported Trump vs. Hillary, has now stated emphatically, "he is glad Hillary is not President, but he in no way supports Trump given what he is doing.” > On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:42, C G Estabrook > wrote: > > I agree that we should focus on "what the USG is doing in respect to war.” > > That’s why ‘Impeach Trump’ is a distraction - a purposeful distraction, by the those calling for continuity in US fp and war-making. > > >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> >> We should be informing people, when it comes to flyers, of what the USG is doing. >> Most Americans aren’t aware that we are in eight wars, with potential for two more. >> Oh yes, they all know how awful the N. Korean leader is, they all fear Iran having nuclear weapons, but do they know there is a solution to the N. Korean problem, one for which we the US could implement, but refuses to do so. >> >> Do the American people know that we are in the process of savaging Africa, again? >> Do they know the US is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world? >> >> Carl, these are all things you have talked about, and placed in flyers before. >> >> Focusing on individuals to blame, is a tactic that alienates and divides a people. If you were writing an article to be published, or on FB thats one thing, but a flyer representing an organization, should merely paraphrase what the USG is doing in respect to war. >> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:03, C G Estabrook > wrote: >>> >>> That earlier flyer was meant to combat Obama’s squeaky-clean image, which he was good at fostering while he administered “the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times." >>> >>> . >>> >>> And see the puff-piece on his 'toughness’: . >>> >>> But I don’t think anyone contends that US world-wide mass murder post-WWII is a matter of presidential caprice, even if they could have acted differently. >>> >>> Neither Obama nor Trump had to send tens of thousands more troops to Afghanistan (as they did) after running as critics of the war (as they did). >>> >>> Condemning and opposing US war-making doesn’t depend on affixing individual responsibility. (Was Truman responsible for Hiroshima? Yes. Alone? No.) >>> >>> —CGE >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 8:39 AM, David Green via Peace > wrote: >>>> >>>> In any event, this language contrasts sharply with a flyer from two years ago, which holds Obama responsible: >>>> >>>> President Obama is making war in eight countries; he is sending American ‘special forces’ into more than 100 countries around the world; he has assassinated thousands by drone - the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times; and he is provoking war with Russia and China. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure how we can justify the difference in tone and substance regarding the warmaking "motivations" of Obama and Trump. >>>> >>>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017, 7:06:53 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Carl >>>> >>>> No one knows better than I, no one has spoken more about the powers behind the throne than I. I’m the one, with AWARE, who has been making the argument that any President who comes to power, as either a Republican or Democrat is going to implement the foreign policy plan put into place by the Oligarchs behind the throne. One of which was Brzezinski, just to keep it simple. >>>> >>>> As a Green socialist, who does not support the one Party system, Democrat/ Republican, once they get to DC. I have been highlighting the very fact, of the Pentagon, CIA, Council on Foreign Relations, Think Tanks, Corporations and Contractors as those pushing the US war agenda. >>>> >>>> But, to imply that Trump anymore than Obama is an unwitting dope of those who make up the “Deep State” “Military Industrial Complex,” however we wish to refer to them, is a mistake, most especially in the title of a flyer. Whether architects or rubber stamps of our foreign policy, they are all complicit. >>>> >>>> A FLYER is meant to impart information, but no one is going to read it, when it acts as an apology for Trump. He is as vile a creature as Clinton, in that he supported the rhetoric of lies and propaganda against Libya and Gaddafi. He is guilty of bombing Syria, and now provoking war with N Korea and Iran. Yes, he is attempting peace with Russia and China, he knows where a dollar is to be made. Though it matters not, when the plan is war with China, predicted by the Rand Think Tank and Pentagon in to be 2030. Our continued presence of Nato on the border of Russia is not going away. >>>> >>>> Roger has just proved my point. He has assessed us as Trump supporters, in spite of my statement, in spite of David Greens statement. What do you think people will think of AWARE, upon receipt of our flyer? And, as I said, focus on the election in order to bash the Clintons is also of no value. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 18:29, C G Estabrook > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The concentration on Trump is the strategy of the (pro-)War Party (the Pentagon, the 'intelligence community,' the Clinton campaign, the neocons) to force the government to continue the wars and war provocations of the last administrations. They think either Trump can be forced to fall in line with the war policy (as he shown he’s willing to do) under the threat of ‘Russiagate’ - or be replaced (with Pence, a War Party creature). >>>>> >>>>> The anti-war movement has to insist that Trump - the weakest president since Coolidge (“silent Cal,”|who followed the opposite performance strategy to Trump's bluster) - is not the problem, but that the continuing and largely unvaried Clinton-Bush-Obama war-making is. That's the policy that must be resisted. The War Party (who of course support that policy) is using Trump as a distraction from that policy. >>>>> >>>>> We should be opposing the Pentagon, the CIA, the Obama-Clintonists, the neocons, et al., who are promoting war provocations vs. Russia and China - not bothering much with the Potemkin president. >>>>> >>>>> John Pilger saw it clearly before the election: "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire.” —CGE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Karen Aram via Peace > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m sorry, Carl >>>>>> >>>>>> I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either, because the focus on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch. >>>>>> >>>>>> Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran are extremely dangerous. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM: >>>>>>> ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. Charter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they - like the German leaders - would be hanged. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most Americans don’t know that. In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, in order to get elected. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they haven’t profited from them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOME >>>>>>> Our representatives in Congress from this area - and their email addresses - are as follows: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Representative Rodney Davis: >>>>>>> Senator Tammy Duckworth: >>>>>>> Senator Dick Durbin: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ~~~ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at >>>>>>> ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income ~ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cfc30480baf2b4882394b08d5376a458e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636475851934473412&sdata=0JBYxrD5cfjQzfDHk4PpLhvWxWn5Ce3B%2FBGNvILHbQI%3D&reserved=0 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Peace mailing list >>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=xazvoaiiZfeKwnoLWr0%2BQ7zDKzK11UmSbVoB97gFtjE%3D&reserved=0 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace mailing list >>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C1510d4a9e78e4ab02a0f08d538090865%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476533794287026&sdata=1gLoCzw4EfQ1ZonM6wynHGMKl4R%2FZ9tvCrtiZBxZTpo%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Thu Nov 30 22:18:59 2017 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:18:59 -0600 Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 Message-ID: Sorry to be late to the party on commenting, here.  Thank you all very much- I am learning so much from you!! I have been catching up on previous "Aware on the Air" episodes from this year.  Because I am new to the formal anti-war movement, I appreciate very much Carl's recitation of basic USG wartime facts at the beginning of each AOTA episode. His delivery helps me memorize them! My comments on any flyers would then be, as a newbie to a demonstration, that I would find many facts like those or others useful and shocking. Many people have absolutely no idea that we have as many bases outside the country as we do, and many people have no idea that Russia only has 15; China 1. (Correct?)  Random thought #1: not related to flyer: Important to address unfounded  fears people will have (I did)  when hearing  "bring back troops" , "cut military in half" . Without knowing/feeling facts of why  U. S. is  major terrorist,  or seeing a plan of bases to close,  or a jobs plan for soldiers, I was fearful of the whole thing. Which brought me to research more, for which I am grateful Aware has links to CounterPunch,  military historians, new events in Asia like Karen brings.  Random #2: As we know to our sorrow,  many people still believe U of C Arthur Laffer -curve trickle-down economics . And in outsourcing all the negative costs of capitalism to the environment and the community instead of making producers be responsible. I prefer to call out continued growth in a corporation as a physical impossibility, just like No Child Left Behind made no sense from the way it was set up, or a cancer is unrestrained growth.  Real life is a cycle. Which would make sense to Millenniels. Where those concepts for into anti-war, Idk. I think they do. Guns & butter from 1st year economics might resonate with those who consider themselves classic GOP conservatives.   Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Karen Aram via Peace-discussDate: Thu, Nov 30, 2017 1:16 PMTo: Carl G. Estabrook;Cc: Karen Aram via Peace-discuss;Harry Mickalide;Peace;Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 Harry is correct, keeping it simple is best, not my skill set. He is also correct that focus on the monetary cost of war and intervention to US domestic social services, including healthcare, education, etc. appeals to most people, so should always be mentioned. A total focus on costs of war, isn’t really us, but it does need to be mentioned.  How can we overlook the genocide taking place in Yemen, or the slavery in Libya of Black Africans as a result of the US destruction of that nation in 2011. It’s now being used as a cause for military intervention, again, basically bringing more troops in than those we’ve already had there.  Trump has announced more troops in Afghanistan, and Col. Larry Wilkerson has predicted we will be there forever, due to China’s economic progress in that region.  Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around the globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation.  In relation to Africa (the sahel, in particular) the fourteen nations previously colonized by France, and again being recolonized by way of military occupation, the US is involved in all, because the French military is incapable, just as is the Saudi military, without US military technical, and logistical support.  On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:40, Carl G. Estabrook wrote: The US should in fact be spending much more on war than the current military budget - paying reparations for the damage we've done and the people we’ve killed in the wars of the current generation.  But it’s not the case that war spending means we can’t afford universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income.  The USG can’t run out of money. No one refuses a check signed by the US government. —CGE On Nov 30, 2017, at 12:31 PM, Harry Mickalide via Peace-discuss wrote: I still think a better simpler flyer would look like this: Projected annual cost for universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income: $X Annual military budget: $600 billion On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: Yes, it is a distraction, and I have argued this point with those who suggest it, other than for war, which no one suggests, and actually might be worthwhile. However, I’ll say it again, it’s totally counterproductive to the anti-war movement and our demonstration.  I have another appointment on Saturday so don’t plan to attend our demonstration. End of conversation on this topic, on my part. PS Even Peter Lavalle of Crosstalk, who supported Trump vs. Hillary, has now stated emphatically, "he is glad Hillary is not President, but he in no way supports Trump given what he is doing.” > On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:42, C G Estabrook wrote: > > I agree that we should focus on "what the USG is doing in respect to war.” > > That’s why ‘Impeach Trump’ is a distraction - a purposeful distraction, by the those calling for continuity in US fp and war-making. > > >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> We should be informing people, when it comes to flyers, of what the USG is doing. >> Most Americans aren’t aware that we are in eight wars, with potential for two more. >> Oh yes, they all know how awful the N. Korean leader is, they all fear Iran having nuclear weapons, but do they know there is a solution to the N. Korean problem, one for which we the US could implement, but refuses to do so. >> >> Do the American people know that we are in the process of savaging Africa, again? >> Do they know the US is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world? >> >> Carl, these are all things you have talked about, and placed in flyers before. >> >> Focusing on individuals to blame, is a tactic that alienates and divides a people. If you were writing an article to be published, or on FB thats one thing, but a flyer representing an organization, should merely paraphrase what the USG is doing in respect to war. >> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:03, C G Estabrook wrote: >>> >>> That earlier flyer was meant to combat Obama’s squeaky-clean image, which he was good at fostering while he administered “the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times." >>> >>> . >>> >>> And see the puff-piece on his 'toughness’: . >>> >>> But I don’t think anyone contends that US world-wide mass murder post-WWII is a matter of presidential caprice, even if they could have acted differently. >>> >>> Neither Obama nor Trump had to send tens of thousands more troops to Afghanistan (as they did) after running as critics of the war (as they did). >>> >>> Condemning and opposing US war-making doesn’t depend on affixing individual responsibility. (Was Truman responsible for Hiroshima? Yes. Alone? No.) >>> >>> —CGE >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 8:39 AM, David Green via Peace wrote: >>>> >>>> In any event, this language contrasts sharply with a flyer from two years ago, which holds Obama responsible: >>>> >>>> President Obama is making war in eight countries; he is sending American ‘special forces’ into more than 100 countries around the world; he has assassinated thousands  by drone - the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times; and he is provoking war with Russia and China. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure how we can justify the difference in tone and substance regarding the warmaking "motivations" of Obama and Trump. >>>> >>>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017, 7:06:53 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Carl >>>> >>>> No one knows better than I, no one has spoken more about the powers behind the throne than I. I’m the one, with AWARE, who has been making the argument that any President who comes to power, as either a Republican or Democrat is going to implement the foreign policy plan put into place by the Oligarchs behind the throne. One of which was Brzezinski, just to keep it simple. >>>> >>>> As a Green socialist, who does not support the one Party system, Democrat/ Republican, once they get to DC. I have been highlighting the very fact, of the Pentagon, CIA, Council on Foreign Relations, Think Tanks, Corporations and Contractors as those pushing the US war agenda. >>>> >>>> But, to imply that Trump anymore than Obama is an unwitting dope of those who make up the “Deep State” “Military Industrial Complex,” however we wish to refer to them, is a mistake, most especially in the title of a flyer. Whether architects or rubber stamps of our foreign policy, they are all complicit. >>>> >>>> A FLYER is meant to impart information, but no one is going to read it, when it acts as an apology for Trump. He is as vile a creature as Clinton, in that he supported the rhetoric of lies and propaganda against Libya and Gaddafi. He is guilty of bombing Syria, and now provoking war with N Korea and Iran. Yes, he is attempting peace with Russia and China, he knows where a dollar is to be made. Though it matters not, when the plan is war with China, predicted by the Rand Think Tank and Pentagon in to be 2030. Our continued presence of Nato on the border of Russia is not going away. >>>> >>>> Roger has just proved my point. He has assessed us as Trump supporters, in spite of my statement, in spite of David Greens statement. What do you think people will think of AWARE, upon receipt of our flyer? And, as I said, focus on the election in order to bash the Clintons is also of no value. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 18:29, C G Estabrook wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The concentration on Trump is the strategy of the (pro-)War Party (the Pentagon, the 'intelligence community,' the Clinton campaign, the neocons) to force the government to continue the wars and war provocations of the last administrations. They think either Trump can be forced to fall in line with the war policy (as he shown he’s willing to do) under the threat of ‘Russiagate’ - or be replaced (with Pence, a War Party creature). >>>>> >>>>> The anti-war movement has to insist that Trump - the weakest president since Coolidge (“silent Cal,”|who followed the opposite performance strategy to Trump's bluster) - is not the problem, but that the continuing and largely unvaried Clinton-Bush-Obama war-making is. That's the policy that must be resisted.  The War Party (who of course support that policy) is using Trump as a distraction from that policy. >>>>> >>>>> We should be opposing the Pentagon, the CIA, the Obama-Clintonists, the neocons, et al., who are promoting war provocations vs. Russia and China - not bothering much with the Potemkin president. >>>>> >>>>> John Pilger saw it clearly before the election: "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire.” —CGE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m sorry, Carl >>>>>> >>>>>> I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either, because the focus  on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch. >>>>>> >>>>>> Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran are extremely dangerous. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM: >>>>>>> ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. Charter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they - like the German leaders - would be hanged. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most Americans don’t know that.  In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, in order to get elected. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they haven’t profited from them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOME >>>>>>> Our representatives in Congress from this area - and their email addresses - are as follows: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Representative Rodney Davis: >>>>>>> Senator Tammy Duckworth: >>>>>>> Senator Dick Durbin: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ~~~ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at >>>>>>> ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income ~ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cfc30480baf2b4882394b08d5376a458e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636475851934473412&sdata=0JBYxrD5cfjQzfDHk4PpLhvWxWn5Ce3B%2FBGNvILHbQI%3D&reserved=0 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Peace mailing list >>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=xazvoaiiZfeKwnoLWr0%2BQ7zDKzK11UmSbVoB97gFtjE%3D&reserved=0 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace mailing list >>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C1510d4a9e78e4ab02a0f08d538090865%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476533794287026&sdata=1gLoCzw4EfQ1ZonM6wynHGMKl4R%2FZ9tvCrtiZBxZTpo%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Thu Nov 30 22:32:22 2017 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:32:22 -0600 Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 Message-ID: <3nc9i30mspnbkep8g6mo9tum.1512080710489@email.lge.com> Forgive me for my learning curve. You all are teaching me to do better research. Are there other military costs put  outside of $600B budget? I found Cabinet costs: Department of Energy, some of which are Nukes. At https://energy.gov , in millions: Nuclear Security 13, 931; Other Defense 816; Dept Admin 178; ( Not all Admin. for defense of course).  The other two Cabinet posts, I think, that might be considered war $$ are NSA and DHS. Thinking there are slush funds other places- not sure where to look Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discussDate: Thu, Nov 30, 2017 3:57 PMTo: Karen Aram;Cc: Karen Aram via Peace-discuss;Harry Mickalide;Peace;Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 You might keep it simple by observing, "Trump is not the problem, US war-making is." Or, "Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around the globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation.”  On Nov 30, 2017, at 1:15 PM, Karen Aram wrote: Harry is correct, keeping it simple is best, not my skill set. He is also correct that focus on the monetary cost of war and intervention to US domestic social services, including healthcare, education, etc. appeals to most people, so should always be mentioned. A total focus on costs of war, isn’t really us, but it does need to be mentioned.  How can we overlook the genocide taking place in Yemen, or the slavery in Libya of Black Africans as a result of the US destruction of that nation in 2011. It’s now being used as a cause for military intervention, again, basically bringing more troops in than those we’ve already had there.  Trump has announced more troops in Afghanistan, and Col. Larry Wilkerson has predicted we will be there forever, due to China’s economic progress in that region.  Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around the globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation.  In relation to Africa (the sahel, in particular) the fourteen nations previously colonized by France, and again being recolonized by way of military occupation, the US is involved in all, because the French military is incapable, just as is the Saudi military, without US military technical, and logistical support.  On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:40, Carl G. Estabrook wrote: The US should in fact be spending much more on war than the current military budget - paying reparations for the damage we've done and the people we’ve killed in the wars of the current generation.  But it’s not the case that war spending means we can’t afford universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income.  The USG can’t run out of money. No one refuses a check signed by the US government. —CGE On Nov 30, 2017, at 12:31 PM, Harry Mickalide via Peace-discuss wrote: I still think a better simpler flyer would look like this: Projected annual cost for universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income: $X Annual military budget: $600 billion On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: Yes, it is a distraction, and I have argued this point with those who suggest it, other than for war, which no one suggests, and actually might be worthwhile. However, I’ll say it again, it’s totally counterproductive to the anti-war movement and our demonstration.  I have another appointment on Saturday so don’t plan to attend our demonstration. End of conversation on this topic, on my part. PS Even Peter Lavalle of Crosstalk, who supported Trump vs. Hillary, has now stated emphatically, "he is glad Hillary is not President, but he in no way supports Trump given what he is doing.” > On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:42, C G Estabrook wrote: > > I agree that we should focus on "what the USG is doing in respect to war.” > > That’s why ‘Impeach Trump’ is a distraction - a purposeful distraction, by the those calling for continuity in US fp and war-making. > > >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> We should be informing people, when it comes to flyers, of what the USG is doing. >> Most Americans aren’t aware that we are in eight wars, with potential for two more. >> Oh yes, they all know how awful the N. Korean leader is, they all fear Iran having nuclear weapons, but do they know there is a solution to the N. Korean problem, one for which we the US could implement, but refuses to do so. >> >> Do the American people know that we are in the process of savaging Africa, again? >> Do they know the US is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world? >> >> Carl, these are all things you have talked about, and placed in flyers before. >> >> Focusing on individuals to blame, is a tactic that alienates and divides a people. If you were writing an article to be published, or on FB thats one thing, but a flyer representing an organization, should merely paraphrase what the USG is doing in respect to war. >> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:03, C G Estabrook wrote: >>> >>> That earlier flyer was meant to combat Obama’s squeaky-clean image, which he was good at fostering while he administered “the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times." >>> >>> . >>> >>> And see the puff-piece on his 'toughness’: . >>> >>> But I don’t think anyone contends that US world-wide mass murder post-WWII is a matter of presidential caprice, even if they could have acted differently. >>> >>> Neither Obama nor Trump had to send tens of thousands more troops to Afghanistan (as they did) after running as critics of the war (as they did). >>> >>> Condemning and opposing US war-making doesn’t depend on affixing individual responsibility. (Was Truman responsible for Hiroshima? Yes. Alone? No.) >>> >>> —CGE >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 8:39 AM, David Green via Peace wrote: >>>> >>>> In any event, this language contrasts sharply with a flyer from two years ago, which holds Obama responsible: >>>> >>>> President Obama is making war in eight countries; he is sending American ‘special forces’ into more than 100 countries around the world; he has assassinated thousands  by drone - the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times; and he is provoking war with Russia and China. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure how we can justify the difference in tone and substance regarding the warmaking "motivations" of Obama and Trump. >>>> >>>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017, 7:06:53 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Carl >>>> >>>> No one knows better than I, no one has spoken more about the powers behind the throne than I. I’m the one, with AWARE, who has been making the argument that any President who comes to power, as either a Republican or Democrat is going to implement the foreign policy plan put into place by the Oligarchs behind the throne. One of which was Brzezinski, just to keep it simple. >>>> >>>> As a Green socialist, who does not support the one Party system, Democrat/ Republican, once they get to DC. I have been highlighting the very fact, of the Pentagon, CIA, Council on Foreign Relations, Think Tanks, Corporations and Contractors as those pushing the US war agenda. >>>> >>>> But, to imply that Trump anymore than Obama is an unwitting dope of those who make up the “Deep State” “Military Industrial Complex,” however we wish to refer to them, is a mistake, most especially in the title of a flyer. Whether architects or rubber stamps of our foreign policy, they are all complicit. >>>> >>>> A FLYER is meant to impart information, but no one is going to read it, when it acts as an apology for Trump. He is as vile a creature as Clinton, in that he supported the rhetoric of lies and propaganda against Libya and Gaddafi. He is guilty of bombing Syria, and now provoking war with N Korea and Iran. Yes, he is attempting peace with Russia and China, he knows where a dollar is to be made. Though it matters not, when the plan is war with China, predicted by the Rand Think Tank and Pentagon in to be 2030. Our continued presence of Nato on the border of Russia is not going away. >>>> >>>> Roger has just proved my point. He has assessed us as Trump supporters, in spite of my statement, in spite of David Greens statement. What do you think people will think of AWARE, upon receipt of our flyer? And, as I said, focus on the election in order to bash the Clintons is also of no value. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 18:29, C G Estabrook wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The concentration on Trump is the strategy of the (pro-)War Party (the Pentagon, the 'intelligence community,' the Clinton campaign, the neocons) to force the government to continue the wars and war provocations of the last administrations. They think either Trump can be forced to fall in line with the war policy (as he shown he’s willing to do) under the threat of ‘Russiagate’ - or be replaced (with Pence, a War Party creature). >>>>> >>>>> The anti-war movement has to insist that Trump - the weakest president since Coolidge (“silent Cal,”|who followed the opposite performance strategy to Trump's bluster) - is not the problem, but that the continuing and largely unvaried Clinton-Bush-Obama war-making is. That's the policy that must be resisted.  The War Party (who of course support that policy) is using Trump as a distraction from that policy. >>>>> >>>>> We should be opposing the Pentagon, the CIA, the Obama-Clintonists, the neocons, et al., who are promoting war provocations vs. Russia and China - not bothering much with the Potemkin president. >>>>> >>>>> John Pilger saw it clearly before the election: "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire.” —CGE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m sorry, Carl >>>>>> >>>>>> I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either, because the focus  on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch. >>>>>> >>>>>> Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran are extremely dangerous. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM: >>>>>>> ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. Charter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they - like the German leaders - would be hanged. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most Americans don’t know that.  In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, in order to get elected. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they haven’t profited from them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOME >>>>>>> Our representatives in Congress from this area - and their email addresses - are as follows: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Representative Rodney Davis: >>>>>>> Senator Tammy Duckworth: >>>>>>> Senator Dick Durbin: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ~~~ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at >>>>>>> ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income ~ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cfc30480baf2b4882394b08d5376a458e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636475851934473412&sdata=0JBYxrD5cfjQzfDHk4PpLhvWxWn5Ce3B%2FBGNvILHbQI%3D&reserved=0 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Peace mailing list >>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=xazvoaiiZfeKwnoLWr0%2BQ7zDKzK11UmSbVoB97gFtjE%3D&reserved=0 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace mailing list >>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C1510d4a9e78e4ab02a0f08d538090865%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476533794287026&sdata=1gLoCzw4EfQ1ZonM6wynHGMKl4R%2FZ9tvCrtiZBxZTpo%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Thu Nov 30 22:33:55 2017 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:33:55 -0600 Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 Message-ID: <43mdh89ujps6va4v9ls6r2iu.1512081161628@email.lge.com> Re flyer. I like term "war On many nations " vs. war in many nations" ?  Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discussDate: Thu, Nov 30, 2017 3:57 PMTo: Karen Aram;Cc: Karen Aram via Peace-discuss;Harry Mickalide;Peace;Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 You might keep it simple by observing, "Trump is not the problem, US war-making is." Or, "Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around the globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation.”  On Nov 30, 2017, at 1:15 PM, Karen Aram wrote: Harry is correct, keeping it simple is best, not my skill set. He is also correct that focus on the monetary cost of war and intervention to US domestic social services, including healthcare, education, etc. appeals to most people, so should always be mentioned. A total focus on costs of war, isn’t really us, but it does need to be mentioned.  How can we overlook the genocide taking place in Yemen, or the slavery in Libya of Black Africans as a result of the US destruction of that nation in 2011. It’s now being used as a cause for military intervention, again, basically bringing more troops in than those we’ve already had there.  Trump has announced more troops in Afghanistan, and Col. Larry Wilkerson has predicted we will be there forever, due to China’s economic progress in that region.  Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around the globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation.  In relation to Africa (the sahel, in particular) the fourteen nations previously colonized by France, and again being recolonized by way of military occupation, the US is involved in all, because the French military is incapable, just as is the Saudi military, without US military technical, and logistical support.  On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:40, Carl G. Estabrook wrote: The US should in fact be spending much more on war than the current military budget - paying reparations for the damage we've done and the people we’ve killed in the wars of the current generation.  But it’s not the case that war spending means we can’t afford universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income.  The USG can’t run out of money. No one refuses a check signed by the US government. —CGE On Nov 30, 2017, at 12:31 PM, Harry Mickalide via Peace-discuss wrote: I still think a better simpler flyer would look like this: Projected annual cost for universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income: $X Annual military budget: $600 billion On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: Yes, it is a distraction, and I have argued this point with those who suggest it, other than for war, which no one suggests, and actually might be worthwhile. However, I’ll say it again, it’s totally counterproductive to the anti-war movement and our demonstration.  I have another appointment on Saturday so don’t plan to attend our demonstration. End of conversation on this topic, on my part. PS Even Peter Lavalle of Crosstalk, who supported Trump vs. Hillary, has now stated emphatically, "he is glad Hillary is not President, but he in no way supports Trump given what he is doing.” > On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:42, C G Estabrook wrote: > > I agree that we should focus on "what the USG is doing in respect to war.” > > That’s why ‘Impeach Trump’ is a distraction - a purposeful distraction, by the those calling for continuity in US fp and war-making. > > >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> We should be informing people, when it comes to flyers, of what the USG is doing. >> Most Americans aren’t aware that we are in eight wars, with potential for two more. >> Oh yes, they all know how awful the N. Korean leader is, they all fear Iran having nuclear weapons, but do they know there is a solution to the N. Korean problem, one for which we the US could implement, but refuses to do so. >> >> Do the American people know that we are in the process of savaging Africa, again? >> Do they know the US is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world? >> >> Carl, these are all things you have talked about, and placed in flyers before. >> >> Focusing on individuals to blame, is a tactic that alienates and divides a people. If you were writing an article to be published, or on FB thats one thing, but a flyer representing an organization, should merely paraphrase what the USG is doing in respect to war. >> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:03, C G Estabrook wrote: >>> >>> That earlier flyer was meant to combat Obama’s squeaky-clean image, which he was good at fostering while he administered “the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times." >>> >>> . >>> >>> And see the puff-piece on his 'toughness’: . >>> >>> But I don’t think anyone contends that US world-wide mass murder post-WWII is a matter of presidential caprice, even if they could have acted differently. >>> >>> Neither Obama nor Trump had to send tens of thousands more troops to Afghanistan (as they did) after running as critics of the war (as they did). >>> >>> Condemning and opposing US war-making doesn’t depend on affixing individual responsibility. (Was Truman responsible for Hiroshima? Yes. Alone? No.) >>> >>> —CGE >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 8:39 AM, David Green via Peace wrote: >>>> >>>> In any event, this language contrasts sharply with a flyer from two years ago, which holds Obama responsible: >>>> >>>> President Obama is making war in eight countries; he is sending American ‘special forces’ into more than 100 countries around the world; he has assassinated thousands  by drone - the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times; and he is provoking war with Russia and China. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure how we can justify the difference in tone and substance regarding the warmaking "motivations" of Obama and Trump. >>>> >>>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017, 7:06:53 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Carl >>>> >>>> No one knows better than I, no one has spoken more about the powers behind the throne than I. I’m the one, with AWARE, who has been making the argument that any President who comes to power, as either a Republican or Democrat is going to implement the foreign policy plan put into place by the Oligarchs behind the throne. One of which was Brzezinski, just to keep it simple. >>>> >>>> As a Green socialist, who does not support the one Party system, Democrat/ Republican, once they get to DC. I have been highlighting the very fact, of the Pentagon, CIA, Council on Foreign Relations, Think Tanks, Corporations and Contractors as those pushing the US war agenda. >>>> >>>> But, to imply that Trump anymore than Obama is an unwitting dope of those who make up the “Deep State” “Military Industrial Complex,” however we wish to refer to them, is a mistake, most especially in the title of a flyer. Whether architects or rubber stamps of our foreign policy, they are all complicit. >>>> >>>> A FLYER is meant to impart information, but no one is going to read it, when it acts as an apology for Trump. He is as vile a creature as Clinton, in that he supported the rhetoric of lies and propaganda against Libya and Gaddafi. He is guilty of bombing Syria, and now provoking war with N Korea and Iran. Yes, he is attempting peace with Russia and China, he knows where a dollar is to be made. Though it matters not, when the plan is war with China, predicted by the Rand Think Tank and Pentagon in to be 2030. Our continued presence of Nato on the border of Russia is not going away. >>>> >>>> Roger has just proved my point. He has assessed us as Trump supporters, in spite of my statement, in spite of David Greens statement. What do you think people will think of AWARE, upon receipt of our flyer? And, as I said, focus on the election in order to bash the Clintons is also of no value. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 18:29, C G Estabrook wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The concentration on Trump is the strategy of the (pro-)War Party (the Pentagon, the 'intelligence community,' the Clinton campaign, the neocons) to force the government to continue the wars and war provocations of the last administrations. They think either Trump can be forced to fall in line with the war policy (as he shown he’s willing to do) under the threat of ‘Russiagate’ - or be replaced (with Pence, a War Party creature). >>>>> >>>>> The anti-war movement has to insist that Trump - the weakest president since Coolidge (“silent Cal,”|who followed the opposite performance strategy to Trump's bluster) - is not the problem, but that the continuing and largely unvaried Clinton-Bush-Obama war-making is. That's the policy that must be resisted.  The War Party (who of course support that policy) is using Trump as a distraction from that policy. >>>>> >>>>> We should be opposing the Pentagon, the CIA, the Obama-Clintonists, the neocons, et al., who are promoting war provocations vs. Russia and China - not bothering much with the Potemkin president. >>>>> >>>>> John Pilger saw it clearly before the election: "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire.” —CGE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m sorry, Carl >>>>>> >>>>>> I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either, because the focus  on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch. >>>>>> >>>>>> Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran are extremely dangerous. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM: >>>>>>> ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. Charter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they - like the German leaders - would be hanged. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most Americans don’t know that.  In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, in order to get elected. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they haven’t profited from them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOME >>>>>>> Our representatives in Congress from this area - and their email addresses - are as follows: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Representative Rodney Davis: >>>>>>> Senator Tammy Duckworth: >>>>>>> Senator Dick Durbin: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ~~~ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at >>>>>>> ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income ~ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cfc30480baf2b4882394b08d5376a458e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636475851934473412&sdata=0JBYxrD5cfjQzfDHk4PpLhvWxWn5Ce3B%2FBGNvILHbQI%3D&reserved=0 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Peace mailing list >>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=xazvoaiiZfeKwnoLWr0%2BQ7zDKzK11UmSbVoB97gFtjE%3D&reserved=0 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace mailing list >>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C1510d4a9e78e4ab02a0f08d538090865%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476533794287026&sdata=1gLoCzw4EfQ1ZonM6wynHGMKl4R%2FZ9tvCrtiZBxZTpo%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mickalideh at gmail.com Thu Nov 30 22:37:08 2017 From: mickalideh at gmail.com (Harry Mickalide) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:37:08 -0600 Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 In-Reply-To: <43mdh89ujps6va4v9ls6r2iu.1512081161628@email.lge.com> References: <43mdh89ujps6va4v9ls6r2iu.1512081161628@email.lge.com> Message-ID: Also, I'll echo Karen, saying "Trump is not the problem" will pretty much turn off everyone who correctly sees that Trump is terrible and is a big problem. On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 4:33 PM, bjornsona at ameritech.net < bjornsona at ameritech.net> wrote: > Re flyer. I like term "war On many nations " vs. war in many nations" ? > > *Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone* > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss > *Date: *Thu, Nov 30, 2017 3:57 PM > *To: *Karen Aram; > *Cc: *Karen Aram via Peace-discuss;Harry Mickalide;Peace; > *Subject:*Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, > Saturday 12/2 > > You might keep it simple by observing, "Trump is not the problem, US > war-making is." > > Or, "Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around > the globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation.” > > > On Nov 30, 2017, at 1:15 PM, Karen Aram wrote: > > Harry is correct, keeping it simple is best, not my skill set. He is also > correct that focus on the monetary cost of war and intervention to US > domestic social services, including healthcare, education, etc. appeals to > most people, so should always be mentioned. A total focus on costs of war, > isn’t really us, but it does need to be mentioned. > > How can we overlook the genocide taking place in Yemen, or the slavery in > Libya of Black Africans as a result of the US destruction of that nation in > 2011. It’s now being used as a cause for military intervention, again, > basically bringing more troops in than those we’ve already had there. > > Trump has announced more troops in Afghanistan, and Col. Larry Wilkerson > has predicted we will be there forever, due to China’s economic progress in > that region. > > Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around the > globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation. > > In relation to Africa (the sahel, in particular) the fourteen nations > previously colonized by France, and again being recolonized by way of > military occupation, the US is involved in all, because the French military > is incapable, just as is the Saudi military, without US military technical, > and logistical support. > > > > > On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:40, Carl G. Estabrook > wrote: > > The US should in fact be spending much more on war than the current > military budget - paying reparations for the damage we've done and the > people we’ve killed in the wars of the current generation. > > But it’s not the case that war spending means we can’t afford universal > healthcare, free college, and universal basic income. > > The USG can’t run out of money. No one refuses a check signed by the US > government. —CGE > > > On Nov 30, 2017, at 12:31 PM, Harry Mickalide via Peace-discuss < > peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > > I still think a better simpler flyer would look like this: > > Projected annual cost for universal healthcare, free college, and > universal basic income: $X > > Annual military budget: $600 billion > > On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Karen Aram via Peace < > peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: > >> Yes, it is a distraction, and I have argued this point with those who >> suggest it, other than for war, which no one suggests, and actually might >> be worthwhile. >> >> However, I’ll say it again, it’s totally counterproductive to the >> anti-war movement and our demonstration. >> >> I have another appointment on Saturday so don’t plan to attend our >> demonstration. >> >> End of conversation on this topic, on my part. >> >> PS Even Peter Lavalle of Crosstalk, who supported Trump vs. Hillary, has >> now stated emphatically, "he is glad Hillary is not President, but he in no >> way supports Trump given what he is doing.” >> >> > On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:42, C G Estabrook wrote: >> > >> > I agree that we should focus on "what the USG is doing in respect to >> war.” >> > >> > That’s why ‘Impeach Trump’ is a distraction - a purposeful distraction, >> by the those calling for continuity in US fp and war-making. >> > >> > >> >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss < >> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> We should be informing people, when it comes to flyers, of what the >> USG is doing. >> >> Most Americans aren’t aware that we are in eight wars, with potential >> for two more. >> >> Oh yes, they all know how awful the N. Korean leader is, they all fear >> Iran having nuclear weapons, but do they know there is a solution to the N. >> Korean problem, one for which we the US could implement, but refuses to do >> so. >> >> >> >> Do the American people know that we are in the process of savaging >> Africa, again? >> >> Do they know the US is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world? >> >> >> >> Carl, these are all things you have talked about, and placed in flyers >> before. >> >> >> >> Focusing on individuals to blame, is a tactic that alienates and >> divides a people. If you were writing an article to be published, or on FB >> thats one thing, but a flyer representing an organization, should merely >> paraphrase what the USG is doing in respect to war. >> >> >> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:03, C G Estabrook >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> That earlier flyer was meant to combat Obama’s squeaky-clean image, >> which he was good at fostering while he administered “the most extreme >> terrorist campaign of modern times." >> >>> >> >>> > 3A%2F%2Fwww.commondreams.org%2Fnews%2F2015%2F01%2F19% >> 2Fnoam-chomsky-obamas-drone-program-most-extreme- >> terrorist-campaign-modern-times&data=02%7C01% >> 7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8 >> %7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63647651009363 >> 7620&sdata=hTjN23pUJtWprTOOgI5SDxa8U20Zi1AJ9WKIOK8m6zM%3D&reserved=0> . >> >>> >> >>> And see the puff-piece on his 'toughness’: < >> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http% >> 3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2012%2F05%2F29%2Fworld%2Fobamas- >> leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram% >> 40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe >> 9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620& >> sdata=NixKmaCjl2DD%2FULwArRx%2FjLU6vWOmH%2BFZ8s%2FLV5hvL4%3D&reserved=0>. >> >>> >> >>> But I don’t think anyone contends that US world-wide mass murder >> post-WWII is a matter of presidential caprice, even if they could have >> acted differently. >> >>> >> >>> Neither Obama nor Trump had to send tens of thousands more troops to >> Afghanistan (as they did) after running as critics of the war (as they did). >> >>> >> >>> Condemning and opposing US war-making doesn’t depend on affixing >> individual responsibility. (Was Truman responsible for Hiroshima? Yes. >> Alone? No.) >> >>> >> >>> —CGE >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 8:39 AM, David Green via Peace < >> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> In any event, this language contrasts sharply with a flyer from two >> years ago, which holds Obama responsible: >> >>>> >> >>>> President Obama is making war in eight countries; he is sending >> American ‘special forces’ into more than 100 countries around the world; he >> has assassinated thousands by drone - the most extreme terrorist campaign >> of modern times; and he is provoking war with Russia and China. >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm not sure how we can justify the difference in tone and substance >> regarding the warmaking "motivations" of Obama and Trump. >> >>>> >> >>>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017, 7:06:53 AM CST, Karen Aram via >> Peace-discuss wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Carl >> >>>> >> >>>> No one knows better than I, no one has spoken more about the powers >> behind the throne than I. I’m the one, with AWARE, who has been making the >> argument that any President who comes to power, as either a Republican or >> Democrat is going to implement the foreign policy plan put into place by >> the Oligarchs behind the throne. One of which was Brzezinski, just to keep >> it simple. >> >>>> >> >>>> As a Green socialist, who does not support the one Party system, >> Democrat/ Republican, once they get to DC. I have been highlighting the >> very fact, of the Pentagon, CIA, Council on Foreign Relations, Think Tanks, >> Corporations and Contractors as those pushing the US war agenda. >> >>>> >> >>>> But, to imply that Trump anymore than Obama is an unwitting dope of >> those who make up the “Deep State” “Military Industrial Complex,” however >> we wish to refer to them, is a mistake, most especially in the title of a >> flyer. Whether architects or rubber stamps of our foreign policy, they are >> all complicit. >> >>>> >> >>>> A FLYER is meant to impart information, but no one is going to read >> it, when it acts as an apology for Trump. He is as vile a creature as >> Clinton, in that he supported the rhetoric of lies and propaganda against >> Libya and Gaddafi. He is guilty of bombing Syria, and now provoking war >> with N Korea and Iran. Yes, he is attempting peace with Russia and China, >> he knows where a dollar is to be made. Though it matters not, when the plan >> is war with China, predicted by the Rand Think Tank and Pentagon in to be >> 2030. Our continued presence of Nato on the border of Russia is not going >> away. >> >>>> >> >>>> Roger has just proved my point. He has assessed us as Trump >> supporters, in spite of my statement, in spite of David Greens statement. >> What do you think people will think of AWARE, upon receipt of our flyer? >> And, as I said, focus on the election in order to bash the Clintons is also >> of no value. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 18:29, C G Estabrook >> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The concentration on Trump is the strategy of the (pro-)War Party >> (the Pentagon, the 'intelligence community,' the Clinton campaign, the >> neocons) to force the government to continue the wars and war provocations >> of the last administrations. They think either Trump can be forced to fall >> in line with the war policy (as he shown he’s willing to do) under the >> threat of ‘Russiagate’ - or be replaced (with Pence, a War Party creature). >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The anti-war movement has to insist that Trump - the weakest >> president since Coolidge (“silent Cal,”|who followed the opposite >> performance strategy to Trump's bluster) - is not the problem, but that the >> continuing and largely unvaried Clinton-Bush-Obama war-making is. That's >> the policy that must be resisted. The War Party (who of course support >> that policy) is using Trump as a distraction from that policy. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> We should be opposing the Pentagon, the CIA, the Obama-Clintonists, >> the neocons, et al., who are promoting war provocations vs. Russia and >> China - not bothering much with the Potemkin president. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> John Pilger saw it clearly before the election: "The CIA has >> demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not >> elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless >> low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. >> These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the >> multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains >> its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with >> China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great >> power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were >> the issues not so dire.” —CGE >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Karen Aram via Peace < >> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I’m sorry, Carl >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump >> defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our >> wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it >> sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either, >> because the focus on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump >> is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted >> every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also >> impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in >> power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran >> are extremely dangerous. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss < >> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM: >> >>>>>>> ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s >> doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. >> Charter. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders >> were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they >> - like the German leaders - would be hanged. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and >> African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and >> Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). >> Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most >> Americans don’t know that. In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special >> Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the >> world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and >> murder. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in >> office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest >> war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and >> non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a >> “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, >> most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see >> the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, >> in order to get elected. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the >> wars. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged >> major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s >> wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have >> killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that >> control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they >> haven’t profited from them. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded >> Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. >> The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent >> Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These >> tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar >> business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be >> undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. >> Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – >> however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops >> (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical >> care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans >> immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOME >> >>>>>>> Our representatives in Congress from this area - and their email >> addresses - are as follows: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Representative Rodney Davis: > ction.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Frodneydavis.house.gov% >> 2Fcontact%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf6 >> 66ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaa >> aaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=xcTtdbDasaZ5ilKiNEH >> R7Eawu6IvnWL2bnj9ZsA8q2U%3D&reserved=0> >> >>>>>>> Senator Tammy Duckworth: > ction.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.duckworth.senate. >> gov%2Fcontent%2Fcontact-senator&data=02%7C01% >> 7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8 >> %7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63647651009363 >> 7620&sdata=ugx3F6jNnTw2LpZoBcxfPI9o9834%2FbvN0Itn3y%2Fe4dc%3D&reserved=0> >> >>>>>>> Senator Dick Durbin: > ction.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.durbin.senate.gov% >> 2Fcontact%2Femail&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail. >> com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb43 >> 5aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=kNZmKv%2F0g >> LlwP8CkdtxIgicnw89CR2e3c%2FllkENOnJg%3D&reserved=0> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> ~~~ >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at > Urbana Illinois> >> >>>>>>> ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ >> Universal basic income ~ >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >> >>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> >>>>>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https% >> 3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace- >> discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cfc30480baf2 >> b4882394b08d5376a458e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa% >> 7C1%7C0%7C636475851934473412&sdata=0JBYxrD5cfjQzfDHk4PpLhvW >> xWn5Ce3B%2FBGNvILHbQI%3D&reserved=0 >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> Peace mailing list >> >>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> >>>>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https% >> 3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace& >> data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a42 >> 30b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1% >> 7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN >> 3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >> >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https% >> 3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace- >> discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7 >> a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa% >> 7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=xazvoaiiZfeKwnoLWr0%2BQ7 >> zDKzK11UmSbVoB97gFtjE%3D&reserved=0 >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> Peace mailing list >> >>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https% >> 3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace& >> data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a42 >> 30b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1% >> 7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN >> 3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https% >> 3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace- >> discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C1510d4a9e78 >> e4ab02a0f08d538090865%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa% >> 7C1%7C0%7C636476533794287026&sdata=1gLoCzw4EfQ1ZonM6wynHGMK >> l4R%2FZ9tvCrtiZBxZTpo%3D&reserved=0 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace mailing list >> Peace at lists.chambana.net >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjornsona at ameritech.net Thu Nov 30 22:58:03 2017 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:58:03 -0600 Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 Message-ID: <48p8m9fm3ukeft64ekl1ncm3.1512081571711@email.lge.com> >From Business Insider.com, Feb.  2015. I could not find anything newer.  Oversea Contingency Operations  Fund - war slush fund.  Nuclear Modernization $1Trillion over next 3 decades. From another source- outside funds to pay for wars usually asked for and appropriated midyear, after budget is passed. Pentagon budget is only for hardware, software, usually. Am I on the correct track? I remember Bush' s wars all paid for outside regular budget process ( probably still being paid for) and millions billions? skimmed in corruption  Nuclear Modernization was topic last week at Foreign Affairs Committee meeting Senator who is resigning held (Jeff Flake? ) and Jeff Merkely,  where they had a former general, a lawyer and a nukes expert discuss whether or not to pass a law that the Pres. needed the Vice Pres. to sign off before he could make a preemptive strike. They ended the hearing with the decision that the U. S. really really needed to modernize its nukes at $1 trillion, , esp. in space. They left grinning like Chesire cats, Dems and GOP alike. Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: bjornsona--- via Peace-discussDate: Thu, Nov 30, 2017 4:32 PMTo: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss;Karen Aram;Cc: Harry Mickalide;Peace;Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 Forgive me for my learning curve. You all are teaching me to do better research. Are there other military costs put  outside of $600B budget? I found Cabinet costs: Department of Energy, some of which are Nukes. At https://energy.gov , in millions: Nuclear Security 13, 931; Other Defense 816; Dept Admin 178; ( Not all Admin. for defense of course).  The other two Cabinet posts, I think, that might be considered war $$ are NSA and DHS. Thinking there are slush funds other places- not sure where to look Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discussDate: Thu, Nov 30, 2017 3:57 PMTo: Karen Aram;Cc: Karen Aram via Peace-discuss;Harry Mickalide;Peace;Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 You might keep it simple by observing, "Trump is not the problem, US war-making is." Or, "Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around the globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation.”  On Nov 30, 2017, at 1:15 PM, Karen Aram wrote: Harry is correct, keeping it simple is best, not my skill set. He is also correct that focus on the monetary cost of war and intervention to US domestic social services, including healthcare, education, etc. appeals to most people, so should always be mentioned. A total focus on costs of war, isn’t really us, but it does need to be mentioned.  How can we overlook the genocide taking place in Yemen, or the slavery in Libya of Black Africans as a result of the US destruction of that nation in 2011. It’s now being used as a cause for military intervention, again, basically bringing more troops in than those we’ve already had there.  Trump has announced more troops in Afghanistan, and Col. Larry Wilkerson has predicted we will be there forever, due to China’s economic progress in that region.  Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around the globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation.  In relation to Africa (the sahel, in particular) the fourteen nations previously colonized by France, and again being recolonized by way of military occupation, the US is involved in all, because the French military is incapable, just as is the Saudi military, without US military technical, and logistical support.  On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:40, Carl G. Estabrook wrote: The US should in fact be spending much more on war than the current military budget - paying reparations for the damage we've done and the people we’ve killed in the wars of the current generation.  But it’s not the case that war spending means we can’t afford universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income.  The USG can’t run out of money. No one refuses a check signed by the US government. —CGE On Nov 30, 2017, at 12:31 PM, Harry Mickalide via Peace-discuss wrote: I still think a better simpler flyer would look like this: Projected annual cost for universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income: $X Annual military budget: $600 billion On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: Yes, it is a distraction, and I have argued this point with those who suggest it, other than for war, which no one suggests, and actually might be worthwhile. However, I’ll say it again, it’s totally counterproductive to the anti-war movement and our demonstration.  I have another appointment on Saturday so don’t plan to attend our demonstration. End of conversation on this topic, on my part. PS Even Peter Lavalle of Crosstalk, who supported Trump vs. Hillary, has now stated emphatically, "he is glad Hillary is not President, but he in no way supports Trump given what he is doing.” > On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:42, C G Estabrook wrote: > > I agree that we should focus on "what the USG is doing in respect to war.” > > That’s why ‘Impeach Trump’ is a distraction - a purposeful distraction, by the those calling for continuity in US fp and war-making. > > >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> We should be informing people, when it comes to flyers, of what the USG is doing. >> Most Americans aren’t aware that we are in eight wars, with potential for two more. >> Oh yes, they all know how awful the N. Korean leader is, they all fear Iran having nuclear weapons, but do they know there is a solution to the N. Korean problem, one for which we the US could implement, but refuses to do so. >> >> Do the American people know that we are in the process of savaging Africa, again? >> Do they know the US is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world? >> >> Carl, these are all things you have talked about, and placed in flyers before. >> >> Focusing on individuals to blame, is a tactic that alienates and divides a people. If you were writing an article to be published, or on FB thats one thing, but a flyer representing an organization, should merely paraphrase what the USG is doing in respect to war. >> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:03, C G Estabrook wrote: >>> >>> That earlier flyer was meant to combat Obama’s squeaky-clean image, which he was good at fostering while he administered “the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times." >>> >>> . >>> >>> And see the puff-piece on his 'toughness’: . >>> >>> But I don’t think anyone contends that US world-wide mass murder post-WWII is a matter of presidential caprice, even if they could have acted differently. >>> >>> Neither Obama nor Trump had to send tens of thousands more troops to Afghanistan (as they did) after running as critics of the war (as they did). >>> >>> Condemning and opposing US war-making doesn’t depend on affixing individual responsibility. (Was Truman responsible for Hiroshima? Yes. Alone? No.) >>> >>> —CGE >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 8:39 AM, David Green via Peace wrote: >>>> >>>> In any event, this language contrasts sharply with a flyer from two years ago, which holds Obama responsible: >>>> >>>> President Obama is making war in eight countries; he is sending American ‘special forces’ into more than 100 countries around the world; he has assassinated thousands  by drone - the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times; and he is provoking war with Russia and China. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure how we can justify the difference in tone and substance regarding the warmaking "motivations" of Obama and Trump. >>>> >>>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017, 7:06:53 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Carl >>>> >>>> No one knows better than I, no one has spoken more about the powers behind the throne than I. I’m the one, with AWARE, who has been making the argument that any President who comes to power, as either a Republican or Democrat is going to implement the foreign policy plan put into place by the Oligarchs behind the throne. One of which was Brzezinski, just to keep it simple. >>>> >>>> As a Green socialist, who does not support the one Party system, Democrat/ Republican, once they get to DC. I have been highlighting the very fact, of the Pentagon, CIA, Council on Foreign Relations, Think Tanks, Corporations and Contractors as those pushing the US war agenda. >>>> >>>> But, to imply that Trump anymore than Obama is an unwitting dope of those who make up the “Deep State” “Military Industrial Complex,” however we wish to refer to them, is a mistake, most especially in the title of a flyer. Whether architects or rubber stamps of our foreign policy, they are all complicit. >>>> >>>> A FLYER is meant to impart information, but no one is going to read it, when it acts as an apology for Trump. He is as vile a creature as Clinton, in that he supported the rhetoric of lies and propaganda against Libya and Gaddafi. He is guilty of bombing Syria, and now provoking war with N Korea and Iran. Yes, he is attempting peace with Russia and China, he knows where a dollar is to be made. Though it matters not, when the plan is war with China, predicted by the Rand Think Tank and Pentagon in to be 2030. Our continued presence of Nato on the border of Russia is not going away. >>>> >>>> Roger has just proved my point. He has assessed us as Trump supporters, in spite of my statement, in spite of David Greens statement. What do you think people will think of AWARE, upon receipt of our flyer? And, as I said, focus on the election in order to bash the Clintons is also of no value. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 18:29, C G Estabrook wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The concentration on Trump is the strategy of the (pro-)War Party (the Pentagon, the 'intelligence community,' the Clinton campaign, the neocons) to force the government to continue the wars and war provocations of the last administrations. They think either Trump can be forced to fall in line with the war policy (as he shown he’s willing to do) under the threat of ‘Russiagate’ - or be replaced (with Pence, a War Party creature). >>>>> >>>>> The anti-war movement has to insist that Trump - the weakest president since Coolidge (“silent Cal,”|who followed the opposite performance strategy to Trump's bluster) - is not the problem, but that the continuing and largely unvaried Clinton-Bush-Obama war-making is. That's the policy that must be resisted.  The War Party (who of course support that policy) is using Trump as a distraction from that policy. >>>>> >>>>> We should be opposing the Pentagon, the CIA, the Obama-Clintonists, the neocons, et al., who are promoting war provocations vs. Russia and China - not bothering much with the Potemkin president. >>>>> >>>>> John Pilger saw it clearly before the election: "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire.” —CGE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m sorry, Carl >>>>>> >>>>>> I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either, because the focus  on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch. >>>>>> >>>>>> Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran are extremely dangerous. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM: >>>>>>> ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. Charter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they - like the German leaders - would be hanged. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most Americans don’t know that.  In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, in order to get elected. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they haven’t profited from them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOME >>>>>>> Our representatives in Congress from this area - and their email addresses - are as follows: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Representative Rodney Davis: >>>>>>> Senator Tammy Duckworth: >>>>>>> Senator Dick Durbin: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ~~~ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at >>>>>>> ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income ~ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cfc30480baf2b4882394b08d5376a458e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636475851934473412&sdata=0JBYxrD5cfjQzfDHk4PpLhvWxWn5Ce3B%2FBGNvILHbQI%3D&reserved=0 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Peace mailing list >>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=xazvoaiiZfeKwnoLWr0%2BQ7zDKzK11UmSbVoB97gFtjE%3D&reserved=0 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace mailing list >>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C1510d4a9e78e4ab02a0f08d538090865%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476533794287026&sdata=1gLoCzw4EfQ1ZonM6wynHGMKl4R%2FZ9tvCrtiZBxZTpo%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Nov 30 23:03:25 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 23:03:25 +0000 Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: According to Kath Kelly in her November issue of “Voices for Creative Non Violence” “Direct US spending on the war in Afghanistan will rise to approximately $840.7 billion if the presidents fiscal year 2018 budget is approved. “ She is quoting the Washington Post. She is referring to Afghanistan alone, with the Trump Administration’s call for more war, more troops in that already devastated nation. > On Nov 30, 2017, at 14:39, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: > > Thank you for the kind word. On the political-economic questions you raise, let me recommend our Urbana Public Television program ‘News from Neptune,’ a weekly hour of discussion, recorded on Friday and archived on YouTube. > > My colleague David Green is particularly concerned with the political-economic questions you raise. Here’s the latest program: . > > Regards, CGE > > >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 4:18 PM, bjornsona--- via Peace wrote: >> >> Sorry to be late to the party on commenting, here. Thank you all very much- I am learning so much from you!! I have been catching up on previous "Aware on the Air" episodes from this year. >> >> Because I am new to the formal anti-war movement, I appreciate very much Carl's recitation of basic USG wartime facts at the beginning of each AOTA episode. His delivery helps me memorize them! My comments on any flyers would then be, as a newbie to a demonstration, that I would find many facts like those or others useful and shocking. Many people have absolutely no idea that we have as many bases outside the country as we do, and many people have no idea that Russia only has 15; China 1. (Correct?) >> >> Random thought #1: not related to flyer: Important to address unfounded&n bsp; fears people will have (I did) when hearing "bring back troops" , "cut military in half" . Without knowing/feeling facts of why U. S. is major terrorist, or seeing a plan of bases to close, or a jobs plan for soldiers, I was fearful of the whole thing. Which brought me to research more, for which I am grateful Aware has links to CounterPunch, military historians, new events in Asia like Karen brings. >> >> Random #2: As we know to our sorrow, many people still believe U of C Arthur Laffer -curve trickle-down economics . And in outsourcing all the negative costs of capitalism to the environment and the community instead of making producers be responsible. I prefer to call out continued growth in a corporation as a physical impossibility , just like No Child Left Behind made no sense from the way it was set up, or a cancer is unrestrained growth. >> >> Real life is a cycle. Which would make sense to Millenniels. Where those concepts for into anti-war, Idk. I think they do. Guns & butter from 1st year economics might resonate with those who consider themselves classic GOP conservatives. >> >> Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> >> ------ Original message------ >> From: Karen Aram via Peace-discuss >> < div dir="auto">Date: Thu, Nov 30, 2017 1:16 PM >> To: Carl G. Estabrook; >> Cc: Karen Aram via Peace-discuss;Harry Mickalide;Peace; >> Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 >> >> Harry is correct, keeping it simple is best, not my skill set. He is also correct that focus on the monetary cost of war and intervention to US domestic social services, including healthcare, education, etc. appeals to most people, so should always be mentioned. A total focus on costs of war, isn’t really us, but it does need to be mentioned. >> >> How can we overlook the genocide taking place in Yemen, or the slavery in Libya of Black Africans as a result of the US destruction of that nation in 2011. It’s now being used as a cause for military intervention, again, basically bringing more troops in than those we’ve already had there. >> >> Trump has announced more troops in Afghanistan, and Col. Larry Wilkerson has predicted we will be there forever, due to China’s economic progress in that region. >> >> Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around the globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation. >> >> In relation to Africa (the sahel, in particular) the fourteen nations previously colonized by France, and again being recolonized by way of military occupation, the US is involved in all, because the French military is incapable, just as is the Saudi military, without US military technical, and logistical support. >> >> >> >> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:40, Carl G. Estabrook wrote: >>> >>> The US should in fact be spending much more on war than the current military budget - paying reparations for the damage we've done and the people we’ve killed in the wars of the current generation. >>> >>> But it’s not the case that war spending means we can’t afford universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income. >>> >>> The USG can’t run out of money. No one refuses a check signed by the US government. —CGE >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 12:31 PM, Harry Mickalide via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> I still think a better simpler flyer would look like this: >>>> >>>> Projected annual cost for universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income: $X >>>> >>>> Annual military budget: $600 billion >>>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >>>> Yes, it is a distraction, and I have argued this point with those who suggest it, other than for war, which no one suggests, and actually might be worthwhile. >>>> >>>> However, I’ll say it again, it’s totally counterproductive to the anti-war movement and our demonstration. >>>> >>>> I have another appointment on Saturday so don’t plan to attend our demonstration. >>>> >>>> End of conversation on this topic, on my part. >>>> >>>> PS Even Peter Lavalle of Crosstalk, who supported Trump vs. Hillary, has now stated emphatically, "he is glad Hillary is not President, but he in no way supports Trump given what he is doing.” >>>> >>>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:42, C G Estabrook wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I agree that we should focus on "what the USG is doing in respect to war.” >>>>> >>>>> That’s why ‘Impeach Trump’ is a distraction - a purposeful distraction, by the those calling for continuity in US fp and war-making. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> We should be informing people, when it comes to flyers, of what the USG is doing. >>>>>> Most Americans aren’t aware that we are in eight wars, with potential for two more. >>>>>> Oh yes, they all know how awful the N. Korean leader is, they all fear Iran having nuclear weapons, but do they know there is a solution to the N. Korean problem, one for which we the US could implement, but refuses to do so. >>>>>> >>>>>> Do the American people know that we are in the process of savaging Africa, again? >>>>>> Do they know the US is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world? >>>>>> >>>>>> Carl, these are all things you have talked about, and placed in flyers before. >>>>>> >>>>>> Focusing on individuals to blame, is a tactic that alienates and divides a people. If you were writing an article to be published, or on FB thats one thing, but a flyer representing an organization, should merely paraphrase what the USG is doing in respect to war. >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:03, C G Estabrook wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That earlier flyer was meant to combat Obama’s squeaky-clean image, which he was good at fostering while he administered “the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And see the puff-piece on his 'toughness’: . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But I don’t think anyone contends that US world-wide mass murder post-WWII is a matter of presidential caprice, even if they could have acted differently. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Neither Obama nor Trump had to send tens of thousands more troops to Afghanistan (as they did) after running as critics of the war (as they did). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Condemning and opposing US war-making doesn’t depend on affixing individual responsibility. (Was Truman responsible for Hiroshima? Yes. Alone? No.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> —CGE >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 8:39 AM, David Green via Peace wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In any event, this language contrasts sharply with a flyer from two years ago, which holds Obama responsible: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> President Obama is making war in eight countries; he is sending American ‘special forces’ into more than 100 countries around the world; he has assassinated thousands by drone - the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times; and he is provoking war with Russia and China. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm not sure how we can justify the difference in tone and substance regarding the warmaking "motivations" of Obama and Trump. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017, 7:06:53 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Carl >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No one knows better than I, no one has spoken more about the powers behind the throne than I. I’m the one, with AWARE, who has been making the argument that any President who comes to power, as either a Republican or Democrat is going to implement the foreign policy plan put into place by the Oligarchs behind the throne. One of which was Brzezinski, just to keep it simple. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As a Green socialist, who does not support the one Party system, Democrat/ Republican, once they get to DC. I have been highlighting the very fact, of the Pentagon, CIA, Council on Foreign Relations, Think Tanks, Corporations and Contractors as those pushing the US war agenda. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But, to imply that Trump anymore than Obama is an unwitting dope of those who make up the “Deep State” “Military Industrial Complex,” however we wish to refer to them, is a mistake, most especially in the title of a flyer. Whether architects or rubber stamps of our foreign policy, they are all complicit. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A FLYER is meant to impart information, but no one is going to read it, when it acts as an apology for Trump. He is as vile a creature as Clinton, in that he supported the rhetoric of lies and propaganda against Libya and Gaddafi. He is guilty of bombing Syria, and now provoking war with N Korea and Iran. Yes, he is attempting peace with Russia and China, he knows where a dollar is to be made. Though it matters not, when the plan is war with China, predicted by the Rand Think Tank and Pentagon in to be 2030. Our continued presence of Nato on the border of Russia is not going away. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Roger has just proved my point. He has assessed us as Trump supporters, in spite of my statement, in spite of David Greens statement. What do you think people will think of AWARE, upon receipt of our flyer? And, as I said, focus on the election in order to bash the Clintons is also of no value. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 18:29, C G Estabrook wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The concentration on Trump is the strategy of the (pro-)War Party (the Pentagon, the 'intelligence community,' the Clinton campaign, the neocons) to force the government to continue the wars and war provocations of the last administrations. They think either Trump can be forced to fall in line with the war policy (as he shown he’s willing to do) under the threat of ‘Russiagate’ - or be replaced (with Pence, a War Party creature). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The anti-war movement has to insist that Trump - the weakest president since Coolidge (“silent Cal,”|who followed the opposite performance strategy to Trump's bluster) - is not the problem, but that the continuing and largely unvaried Clinton-Bush-Obama war-making is. That's the policy that must be resisted. The War Party (who of course support that policy) is using Trump as a distraction from that policy. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We should be opposing the Pentagon, the CIA, the Obama-Clintonists, the neocons, et al., who are promoting war provocations vs. Russia and China - not bothering much with the Potemkin president. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> John Pilger saw it clearly before the election: "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire.” —CGE >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I’m sorry, Carl >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either, because the focus on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran are extremely dangerous. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM: >>>>>>>>>>> ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. Charter. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they - like the German leaders - would be hanged. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most Americans don’t know that. In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, in order to get elected. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they haven’t profited from them. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOME >>>>>>>>>>> Our representatives in Congress from this area - and their email addresses - are as follows: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Representative Rodney Davis: >>>>>>>>>>> Senator Tammy Duckworth: >>>>>>>>>>> Senator Dick Durbin: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ~~~ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at >>>>>>>>>>> ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income ~ > > _______________________________________________ > Peace-discuss mailing list > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cfc4ae7b3663941d9698608d5384339bf%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476783737523426&sdata=AvBi8ttKQBodyQFqPpFhB5E49cgGhp%2BarJ8AJJ00DVo%3D&reserved=0 From bjornsona at ameritech.net Thu Nov 30 23:17:47 2017 From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 17:17:47 -0600 Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 Message-ID:  Off to pick husband Tom up from Enterprise Works at the Research park so I won't be bothering you all anymore. Hope to see you Saturday. 10:00 at the Park at Church st, correct?  Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: bjornsona--- via Peace-discussDate: Thu, Nov 30, 2017 4:58 PMTo: bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss;Karen Aram;Cc: Harry Mickalide;Peace;Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 >From Business Insider.com, Feb.  2015. I could not find anything newer.  Oversea Contingency Operations  Fund - war slush fund.  Nuclear Modernization $1Trillion over next 3 decades. From another source- outside funds to pay for wars usually asked for and appropriated midyear, after budget is passed. Pentagon budget is only for hardware, software, usually. Am I on the correct track? I remember Bush' s wars all paid for outside regular budget process ( probably still being paid for) and millions billions? skimmed in corruption  Nuclear Modernization was topic last week at Foreign Affairs Committee meeting Senator who is resigning held (Jeff Flake? ) and Jeff Merkely,  where they had a former general, a lawyer and a nukes expert discuss whether or not to pass a law that the Pres. needed the Vice Pres. to sign off before he could make a preemptive strike. They ended the hearing with the decision that the U. S. really really needed to modernize its nukes at $1 trillion, , esp. in space. They left grinning like Chesire cats, Dems and GOP alike. Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: bjornsona--- via Peace-discussDate: Thu, Nov 30, 2017 4:32 PMTo: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss;Karen Aram;Cc: Harry Mickalide;Peace;Subje ct:Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 Forgive me for my learning curve. You all are teaching me to do better research. Are there other military costs put  outside of $600B budget? I found Cabinet costs: Department of Energy, some of which are Nukes. At https://energy.gov , in millions: Nuclear Security 13, 931; Other Defense 816; Dept Admin 178; ( Not all Admin. for defense of course).  The other two Cabinet posts, I think, that might be considered war $$ are NSA and DHS. Thinking there are slush funds other places- not sure where to look Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discussDate: Thu, Nov 30, 2017 3:57 PMTo: Karen Aram;Cc: Karen Aram via Peace-discuss;Harry Mickalide;Peace;Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 You might keep it simple by observing, "Trump is not the problem, US war-making is." Or, "Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around the globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation.”  On Nov 30, 2017, at 1:15 PM, Karen Aram wrote: Harry is correct, keeping it simple is best, not my skill set. He is also correct that focus on the monetary cost of war and intervention to US domestic social services, including healthcare, education, etc. appeals to most people, so should always be mentioned. A total focus on costs of war, isn’t really us, but it does need to be mentioned.  How can we overlook the genocide taking place in Yemen, or the slavery in Libya of Black Africans as a result of the US destruction of that nation in 2011. It’s now being used as a cause for military intervention, again, basically bringing more troops in than those we’ve already had there.  Trump has announced more troops in Afghanistan, and Col. Larry Wilkerson has predicted we will be there forever, due to China’s economic progress in that region.  Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around the globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation.  In relation to Africa (the sahel, in particular) the fourteen nations previously colonized by France, and again being recolonized by way of military occupation, the US is involved in all, because the French military is incapable, just as is the Saudi military, without US military technical, and logistical support.  On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:40, Carl G. Estabrook wrote: The US should in fact be spending much more on war than the current military budget - paying reparations for the damage we've done and the people we’ve killed in the wars of the current generation.  But it’s not the case that war spending means we can’t afford universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income.  The USG can’t run out of money. No one refuses a check signed by the US government. —CGE On Nov 30, 2017, at 12:31 PM, Harry Mickalide via Peace-discuss wrote: I still think a better simpler flyer would look like this: Projected annual cost for universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income: $X Annual military budget: $600 billion On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: Yes, it is a distraction, and I have argued this point with those who suggest it, other than for war, which no one suggests, and actually might be worthwhile. However, I’ll say it again, it’s totally counterproductive to the anti-war movement and our demonstration.  I have another appointment on Saturday so don’t plan to attend our demonstration. End of conversation on this topic, on my part. PS Even Peter Lavalle of Crosstalk, who supported Trump vs. Hillary, has now stated emphatically, "he is glad Hillary is not President, but he in no way supports Trump given what he is doing.” > On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:42, C G Estabrook wrote: > > I agree that we should focus on "what the USG is doing in respect to war.” > > That’s why ‘Impeach Trump’ is a distraction - a purposeful distraction, by the those calling for continuity in US fp and war-making. > > >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >> >> We should be informing people, when it comes to flyers, of what the USG is doing. >> Most Americans aren’t aware that we are in eight wars, with potential for two more. >> Oh yes, they all know how awful the N. Korean leader is, they all fear Iran having nuclear weapons, but do they know there is a solution to the N. Korean problem, one for which we the US could implement, but refuses to do so. >> >> Do the American people know that we are in the process of savaging Africa, again? >> Do they know the US is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world? >> >> Carl, these are all things you have talked about, and placed in flyers before. >> >> Focusing on individuals to blame, is a tactic that alienates and divides a people. If you were writing an article to be published, or on FB thats one thing, but a flyer representing an organization, should merely paraphrase what the USG is doing in respect to war. >> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:03, C G Estabrook wrote: >>> >>> That earlier flyer was meant to combat Obama’s squeaky-clean image, which he was good at fostering while he administered “the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times." >>> >>> . >>> >>> And see the puff-piece on his 'toughness’: . >>> >>> But I don’t think anyone contends that US world-wide mass murder post-WWII is a matter of presidential caprice, even if they could have acted differently. >>> >>> Neither Obama nor Trump had to send tens of thousands more troops to Afghanistan (as they did) after running as critics of the war (as they did). >>> >>> Condemning and opposing US war-making doesn’t depend on affixing individual responsibility. (Was Truman responsible for Hiroshima? Yes. Alone? No.) >>> >>> —CGE >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 8:39 AM, David Green via Peace wrote: >>>> >>>> In any event, this language contrasts sharply with a flyer from two years ago, which holds Obama responsible: >>>> >>>> President Obama is making war in eight countries; he is sending American ‘special forces’ into more than 100 countries around the world; he has assassinated thousands  by drone - the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times; and he is provoking war with Russia and China. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure how we can justify the difference in tone and substance regarding the warmaking "motivations" of Obama and Trump. >>>> >>>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017, 7:06:53 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Carl >>>> >>>> No one knows better than I, no one has spoken more about the powers behind the throne than I. I’m the one, with AWARE, who has been making the argument that any President who comes to power, as either a Republican or Democrat is going to implement the foreign policy plan put into place by the Oligarchs behind the throne. One of which was Brzezinski, just to keep it simple. >>>> >>>> As a Green socialist, who does not support the one Party system, Democrat/ Republican, once they get to DC. I have been highlighting the very fact, of the Pentagon, CIA, Council on Foreign Relations, Think Tanks, Corporations and Contractors as those pushing the US war agenda. >>>> >>>> But, to imply that Trump anymore than Obama is an unwitting dope of those who make up the “Deep State” “Military Industrial Complex,” however we wish to refer to them, is a mistake, most especially in the title of a flyer. Whether architects or rubber stamps of our foreign policy, they are all complicit. >>>> >>>> A FLYER is meant to impart information, but no one is going to read it, when it acts as an apology for Trump. He is as vile a creature as Clinton, in that he supported the rhetoric of lies and propaganda against Libya and Gaddafi. He is guilty of bombing Syria, and now provoking war with N Korea and Iran. Yes, he is attempting peace with Russia and China, he knows where a dollar is to be made. Though it matters not, when the plan is war with China, predicted by the Rand Think Tank and Pentagon in to be 2030. Our continued presence of Nato on the border of Russia is not going away. >>>> >>>> Roger has just proved my point. He has assessed us as Trump supporters, in spite of my statement, in spite of David Greens statement. What do you think people will think of AWARE, upon receipt of our flyer? And, as I said, focus on the election in order to bash the Clintons is also of no value. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 18:29, C G Estabrook wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The concentration on Trump is the strategy of the (pro-)War Party (the Pentagon, the 'intelligence community,' the Clinton campaign, the neocons) to force the government to continue the wars and war provocations of the last administrations. They think either Trump can be forced to fall in line with the war policy (as he shown he’s willing to do) under the threat of ‘Russiagate’ - or be replaced (with Pence, a War Party creature). >>>>> >>>>> The anti-war movement has to insist that Trump - the weakest president since Coolidge (“silent Cal,”|who followed the opposite performance strategy to Trump's bluster) - is not the problem, but that the continuing and largely unvaried Clinton-Bush-Obama war-making is. That's the policy that must be resisted.  The War Party (who of course support that policy) is using Trump as a distraction from that policy. >>>>> >>>>> We should be opposing the Pentagon, the CIA, the Obama-Clintonists, the neocons, et al., who are promoting war provocations vs. Russia and China - not bothering much with the Potemkin president. >>>>> >>>>> John Pilger saw it clearly before the election: "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire.” —CGE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Karen Aram via Peace wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m sorry, Carl >>>>>> >>>>>> I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either, because the focus  on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch. >>>>>> >>>>>> Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran are extremely dangerous. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM: >>>>>>> ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. Charter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they - like the German leaders - would be hanged. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most Americans don’t know that.  In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, in order to get elected. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they haven’t profited from them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOME >>>>>>> Our representatives in Congress from this area - and their email addresses - are as follows: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Representative Rodney Davis: >>>>>>> Senator Tammy Duckworth: >>>>>>> Senator Dick Durbin: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ~~~ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at >>>>>>> ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income ~ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cfc30480baf2b4882394b08d5376a458e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636475851934473412&sdata=0JBYxrD5cfjQzfDHk4PpLhvWxWn5Ce3B%2FBGNvILHbQI%3D&reserved=0 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Peace mailing list >>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=xazvoaiiZfeKwnoLWr0%2BQ7zDKzK11UmSbVoB97gFtjE%3D&reserved=0 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace mailing list >>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C1510d4a9e78e4ab02a0f08d538090865%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476533794287026&sdata=1gLoCzw4EfQ1ZonM6wynHGMKl4R%2FZ9tvCrtiZBxZTpo%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karenaram at hotmail.com Thu Nov 30 23:20:14 2017 From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 23:20:14 +0000 Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2:00pm, Church St. and Neil St. downtown Champaign. Big clock on the intersection corner. I won’t be there, sorry to miss you. On Nov 30, 2017, at 15:17, bjornsona at ameritech.net wrote: Off to pick husband Tom up from Enterprise Works at the Research park so I won't be bothering you all anymore. Hope to see you Saturday. 10:00 at the Park at Church st, correct? Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------ From: bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss Date: Thu, Nov 30, 2017 4:58 PM To: bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss;Karen Aram; Cc: Harry Mickalide;Peace; Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 From Business Insider.com, Feb. 2015. I could not find anything newer. Oversea Contingency Operations Fund - war slush fund. Nuclear Modernization $1Trillion over next 3 decades. From another source- outside funds to pay for wars usually asked for and appropriated midyear, after budget is passed. Pentagon budget is only for hardware, software, usually. Am I on the correct track? I remember Bush' s wars all paid for outside regular budget process ( probably still being paid for) and millions billions? skimmed in corruption Nuclear Modernization was topic last week at Foreign Affairs Committee meeting Senator who is resigning held (Jeff Flake? ) and Jeff Merkely, where they had a former general, a lawyer and a nukes expert discuss whether or not to pass a law that the Pres. needed the Vice Pres. to sign off before he could make a preemptive strike. They ended the hearing with the decision that the U. S. really really needed to modernize its nukes at $1 trillion, , esp. in space. They left grinning like Chesire cats, Dems and GOP alike. Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------ From: bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss Date: Thu, Nov 30, 2017 4:32 PM To: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss;Karen Aram; Cc: Harry Mickalide;Peace; Subje ct:Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 Forgive me for my learning curve. You all are teaching me to do better research. Are there other military costs put outside of $600B budget? I found Cabinet costs: Department of Energy, some of which are Nukes. At https://energy.gov , in millions: Nuclear Security 13, 931; Other Defense 816; Dept Admin 178; ( Not all Admin. for defense of course). The other two Cabinet posts, I think, that might be considered war $$ are NSA and DHS. Thinking there are slush funds other places- not sure where to look Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone ------ Original message------ From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss Date: Thu, Nov 30, 2017 3:57 PM To: Karen Aram; Cc: Karen Aram via Peace-discuss;Harry Mickalide;Peace; Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2 You might keep it simple by observing, "Trump is not the problem, US war-making is." Or, "Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around the globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation.” On Nov 30, 2017, at 1:15 PM, Karen Aram > wrote: Harry is correct, keeping it simple is best, not my skill set. He is also correct that focus on the monetary cost of war and intervention to US domestic social services, including healthcare, education, etc. appeals to most people, so should always be mentioned. A total focus on costs of war, isn’t really us, but it does need to be mentioned. How can we overlook the genocide taking place in Yemen, or the slavery in Libya of Black Africans as a result of the US destruction of that nation in 2011. It’s now being used as a cause for military intervention, again, basically bringing more troops in than those we’ve already had there. Trump has announced more troops in Afghanistan, and Col. Larry Wilkerson has predicted we will be there forever, due to China’s economic progress in that region. Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around the globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation. In relation to Africa (the sahel, in particular) the fourteen nations previously colonized by France, and again being recolonized by way of military occupation, the US is involved in all, because the French military is incapable, just as is the Saudi military, without US military technical, and logistical support. On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:40, Carl G. Estabrook > wrote: The US should in fact be spending much more on war than the current military budget - paying reparations for the damage we've done and the people we’ve killed in the wars of the current generation. But it’s not the case that war spending means we can’t afford universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income. The USG can’t run out of money. No one refuses a check signed by the US government. —CGE On Nov 30, 2017, at 12:31 PM, Harry Mickalide via Peace-discuss > wrote: I still think a better simpler flyer would look like this: Projected annual cost for universal healthcare, free college, and universal basic income: $X Annual military budget: $600 billion On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Karen Aram via Peace > wrote: Yes, it is a distraction, and I have argued this point with those who suggest it, other than for war, which no one suggests, and actually might be worthwhile. However, I’ll say it again, it’s totally counterproductive to the anti-war movement and our demonstration. I have another appointment on Saturday so don’t plan to attend our demonstration. End of conversation on this topic, on my part. PS Even Peter Lavalle of Crosstalk, who supported Trump vs. Hillary, has now stated emphatically, "he is glad Hillary is not President, but he in no way supports Trump given what he is doing.” > On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:42, C G Estabrook > wrote: > > I agree that we should focus on "what the USG is doing in respect to war.” > > That’s why ‘Impeach Trump’ is a distraction - a purposeful distraction, by the those calling for continuity in US fp and war-making. > > >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >> >> We should be informing people, when it comes to flyers, of what the USG is doing. >> Most Americans aren’t aware that we are in eight wars, with potential for two more. >> Oh yes, they all know how awful the N. Korean leader is, they all fear Iran having nuclear weapons, but do they know there is a solution to the N. Korean problem, one for which we the US could implement, but refuses to do so. >> >> Do the American people know that we are in the process of savaging Africa, again? >> Do they know the US is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world? >> >> Carl, these are all things you have talked about, and placed in flyers before. >> >> Focusing on individuals to blame, is a tactic that alienates and divides a people. If you were writing an article to be published, or on FB thats one thing, but a flyer representing an organization, should merely paraphrase what the USG is doing in respect to war. >> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:03, C G Estabrook > wrote: >>> >>> That earlier flyer was meant to combat Obama’s squeaky-clean image, which he was good at fostering while he administered “the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times." >>> >>> > . >>> >>> And see the puff-piece on his 'toughness’: >. >>> >>> But I don’t think anyone contends that US world-wide mass murder post-WWII is a matter of presidential caprice, even if they could have acted differently. >>> >>> Neither Obama nor Trump had to send tens of thousands more troops to Afghanistan (as they did) after running as critics of the war (as they did). >>> >>> Condemning and opposing US war-making doesn’t depend on affixing individual responsibility. (Was Truman responsible for Hiroshima? Yes. Alone? No.) >>> >>> —CGE >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 8:39 AM, David Green via Peace > wrote: >>>> >>>> In any event, this language contrasts sharply with a flyer from two years ago, which holds Obama responsible: >>>> >>>> President Obama is making war in eight countries; he is sending American ‘special forces’ into more than 100 countries around the world; he has assassinated thousands by drone - the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times; and he is provoking war with Russia and China. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure how we can justify the difference in tone and substance regarding the warmaking "motivations" of Obama and Trump. >>>> >>>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017, 7:06:53 AM CST, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Carl >>>> >>>> No one knows better than I, no one has spoken more about the powers behind the throne than I. I’m the one, with AWARE, who has been making the argument that any President who comes to power, as either a Republican or Democrat is going to implement the foreign policy plan put into place by the Oligarchs behind the throne. One of which was Brzezinski, just to keep it simple. >>>> >>>> As a Green socialist, who does not support the one Party system, Democrat/ Republican, once they get to DC. I have been highlighting the very fact, of the Pentagon, CIA, Council on Foreign Relations, Think Tanks, Corporations and Contractors as those pushing the US war agenda. >>>> >>>> But, to imply that Trump anymore than Obama is an unwitting dope of those who make up the “Deep State” “Military Industrial Complex,” however we wish to refer to them, is a mistake, most especially in the title of a flyer. Whether architects or rubber stamps of our foreign policy, they are all complicit. >>>> >>>> A FLYER is meant to impart information, but no one is going to read it, when it acts as an apology for Trump. He is as vile a creature as Clinton, in that he supported the rhetoric of lies and propaganda against Libya and Gaddafi. He is guilty of bombing Syria, and now provoking war with N Korea and Iran. Yes, he is attempting peace with Russia and China, he knows where a dollar is to be made. Though it matters not, when the plan is war with China, predicted by the Rand Think Tank and Pentagon in to be 2030. Our continued presence of Nato on the border of Russia is not going away. >>>> >>>> Roger has just proved my point. He has assessed us as Trump supporters, in spite of my statement, in spite of David Greens statement. What do you think people will think of AWARE, upon receipt of our flyer? And, as I said, focus on the election in order to bash the Clintons is also of no value. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 18:29, C G Estabrook > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The concentration on Trump is the strategy of the (pro-)War Party (the Pentagon, the 'intelligence community,' the Clinton campaign, the neocons) to force the government to continue the wars and war provocations of the last administrations. They think either Trump can be forced to fall in line with the war policy (as he shown he’s willing to do) under the threat of ‘Russiagate’ - or be replaced (with Pence, a War Party creature). >>>>> >>>>> The anti-war movement has to insist that Trump - the weakest president since Coolidge (“silent Cal,”|who followed the opposite performance strategy to Trump's bluster) - is not the problem, but that the continuing and largely unvaried Clinton-Bush-Obama war-making is. That's the policy that must be resisted. The War Party (who of course support that policy) is using Trump as a distraction from that policy. >>>>> >>>>> We should be opposing the Pentagon, the CIA, the Obama-Clintonists, the neocons, et al., who are promoting war provocations vs. Russia and China - not bothering much with the Potemkin president. >>>>> >>>>> John Pilger saw it clearly before the election: "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire.” —CGE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Karen Aram via Peace > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m sorry, Carl >>>>>> >>>>>> I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either, because the focus on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch. >>>>>> >>>>>> Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran are extremely dangerous. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM: >>>>>>> ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N. Charter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they - like the German leaders - would be hanged. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines). Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most Americans don’t know that. In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and murder. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda, most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars, in order to get elected. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the wars. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they haven’t profited from them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOME >>>>>>> Our representatives in Congress from this area - and their email addresses - are as follows: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Representative Rodney Davis: >>>>>>> Senator Tammy Duckworth: >>>>>>> Senator Dick Durbin: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ~~~ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at >>>>>>> ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income ~ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>>>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cfc30480baf2b4882394b08d5376a458e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636475851934473412&sdata=0JBYxrD5cfjQzfDHk4PpLhvWxWn5Ce3B%2FBGNvILHbQI%3D&reserved=0 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Peace mailing list >>>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace-discuss mailing list >>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=xazvoaiiZfeKwnoLWr0%2BQ7zDKzK11UmSbVoB97gFtjE%3D&reserved=0 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Peace mailing list >>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=K2skpZ7DB7gaAC0qrBHMVVdN3aiMOsP2EfrwZkHSw3k%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Peace-discuss mailing list >> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net >> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.chambana.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fpeace-discuss&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7C1510d4a9e78e4ab02a0f08d538090865%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476533794287026&sdata=1gLoCzw4EfQ1ZonM6wynHGMKl4R%2FZ9tvCrtiZBxZTpo%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace _______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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