[Peace] [Peace-discuss] Flyer for AWARE demonstration, Saturday 12/2

Thu Nov 30 22:37:08 UTC 2017

Also, I'll echo Karen, saying "Trump is not the problem" will pretty much
turn off everyone who correctly sees that Trump is terrible and is a big
problem.

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 4:33 PM, bjornsona at ameritech.net <
bjornsona at ameritech.net> wrote:

> Re flyer. I like term "war On many nations " vs. war in many nations" ?
>
> *Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone*
>
> ------ Original message------
> *From: *Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss
> *Date: *Thu, Nov 30, 2017 3:57 PM
> *To: *Karen Aram;
> *Cc: *Karen Aram via Peace-discuss;Harry Mickalide;Peace;
> *Subject:*Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Flyer for AWARE demonstration,
> Saturday 12/2
>
> You might keep it simple by observing, "Trump is not the problem, US
> war-making is."
>
> Or, "Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around
> the globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation.”
>
>
> On Nov 30, 2017, at 1:15 PM, Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Harry is correct, keeping it simple is best, not my skill set. He is also
> correct that focus on the monetary cost of war and intervention to US
> domestic social services, including healthcare, education, etc. appeals to
> most people, so should always be mentioned. A total focus on costs of war,
> isn’t really us, but it does need to be mentioned.
>
> How can we overlook the genocide taking place in Yemen, or the slavery in
> Libya of Black Africans as a result of the US destruction of that nation in
> 2011. It’s now being used as a cause for military intervention, again,
> basically bringing more troops in than those we’ve already had there.
>
> Trump has announced more troops in Afghanistan, and Col. Larry Wilkerson
> has predicted we will be there forever, due to China’s economic progress in
> that region.
>
> Bottom line, the USG is planning perpetual war in many nations around the
> globe, its become the norm for the millennial generation.
>
> In relation to Africa (the sahel, in particular) the fourteen nations
> previously colonized by France, and again being recolonized by way of
> military occupation, the US is involved in all, because the French military
> is incapable, just as is the Saudi military, without US military technical,
> and logistical support.
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:40, Carl G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
> wrote:
>
> The US should in fact be spending much more on war than the current
> military budget - paying reparations for the damage we've done and the
> people we’ve killed in the wars of the current generation.
>
> But it’s not the case that war spending means we can’t afford universal
> healthcare, free college, and universal basic income.
>
> The USG can’t run out of money. No one refuses a check signed by the US
> government. —CGE
>
>
> On Nov 30, 2017, at 12:31 PM, Harry Mickalide via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
> I still think a better simpler flyer would look like this:
>
> Projected annual cost for universal healthcare, free college, and
> universal basic income: $X
>
> Annual military budget: $600 billion
>
> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <
> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
>> Yes, it is a distraction, and I have argued this point with those who
>> suggest it, other than for war, which no one suggests, and actually might
>> be worthwhile.
>>
>> However, I’ll say it again, it’s totally counterproductive to the
>> anti-war movement and our demonstration.
>>
>>  I have another appointment on Saturday so don’t plan to attend our
>> demonstration.
>>
>> End of conversation on this topic, on my part.
>>
>> PS Even Peter Lavalle of Crosstalk, who supported Trump vs. Hillary, has
>> now stated emphatically, "he is glad Hillary is not President, but he in no
>> way supports Trump given what he is doing.”
>>
>> > On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:42, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I agree that we should focus on "what the USG is doing in respect to
>> war.”
>> >
>> > That’s why ‘Impeach Trump’ is a distraction - a purposeful distraction,
>> by the those calling for continuity in US fp and war-making.
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Nov 30, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss <
>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> We should be informing people, when it comes to flyers, of what the
>> USG is doing.
>> >> Most Americans aren’t aware that we are in eight wars, with potential
>> for two more.
>> >> Oh yes, they all know how awful the N. Korean leader is, they all fear
>> Iran having nuclear weapons, but do they know there is a solution to the N.
>> Korean problem, one for which we the US could implement, but refuses to do
>> so.
>> >>
>> >> Do the American people know that we are in the process of savaging
>> Africa, again?
>> >> Do they know the US is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world?
>> >>
>> >> Carl, these are all things you have talked about, and placed in flyers
>> before.
>> >>
>> >> Focusing on individuals to blame, is a tactic that alienates and
>> divides a people. If you were writing an article to be published, or on FB
>> thats one thing, but a flyer representing an organization, should merely
>> paraphrase what the USG is doing in respect to war.
>> >>
>> >>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 07:03, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> That earlier flyer was meant to combat Obama’s squeaky-clean image,
>> which he was good at fostering while he administered “the most extreme
>> terrorist campaign of modern times."
>> >>>
>> >>> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%
>> 3A%2F%2Fwww.commondreams.org%2Fnews%2F2015%2F01%2F19%
>> 2Fnoam-chomsky-obamas-drone-program-most-extreme-
>> terrorist-campaign-modern-times&data=02%7C01%
>> 7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8
>> %7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63647651009363
>> 7620&sdata=hTjN23pUJtWprTOOgI5SDxa8U20Zi1AJ9WKIOK8m6zM%3D&reserved=0> .
>> >>>
>> >>> And see the puff-piece on his 'toughness’: <
>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%
>> 3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2012%2F05%2F29%2Fworld%2Fobamas-
>> leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%
>> 40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe
>> 9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&
>> sdata=NixKmaCjl2DD%2FULwArRx%2FjLU6vWOmH%2BFZ8s%2FLV5hvL4%3D&reserved=0>.
>> >>>
>> >>> But I don’t think anyone contends that US world-wide mass murder
>> post-WWII is a matter of presidential caprice, even if they could have
>> acted differently.
>> >>>
>> >>> Neither Obama nor Trump had to send tens of thousands more troops to
>> Afghanistan (as they did) after running as critics of the war (as they did).
>> >>>
>> >>> Condemning and opposing US war-making doesn’t depend on affixing
>> individual responsibility. (Was Truman responsible for Hiroshima? Yes.
>> Alone? No.)
>> >>>
>> >>> —CGE
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 8:39 AM, David Green via Peace <
>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> In any event, this language contrasts sharply with a flyer from two
>> years ago, which holds Obama responsible:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> President Obama is making war in eight countries; he is sending
>> American ‘special forces’ into more than 100 countries around the world; he
>> has assassinated thousands  by drone - the most extreme terrorist campaign
>> of modern times; and he is provoking war with Russia and China.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'm not sure how we can justify the difference in tone and substance
>> regarding the warmaking "motivations" of Obama and Trump.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017, 7:06:53 AM CST, Karen Aram via
>> Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Carl
>> >>>>
>> >>>> No one knows better than I, no one has spoken more about the powers
>> behind the throne than I. I’m the one, with AWARE, who has been making the
>> argument that any President who comes to power, as either a Republican or
>> Democrat is going to implement the foreign policy plan put into place by
>> the Oligarchs behind the throne. One of which was Brzezinski, just to keep
>> it simple.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> As a Green socialist, who does not support the one Party system,
>> Democrat/ Republican, once they get to DC. I have been highlighting the
>> very fact, of the Pentagon, CIA, Council on Foreign Relations, Think Tanks,
>> Corporations and Contractors as those pushing the US war agenda.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But, to imply that Trump anymore than Obama is an unwitting dope of
>> those who make up the “Deep State” “Military Industrial Complex,” however
>> we wish to refer to them, is a mistake, most especially in the title of a
>> flyer. Whether architects or rubber stamps of our foreign policy, they are
>> all complicit.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> A FLYER is meant to impart information, but no one is going to read
>> it, when it acts as an apology for Trump. He is as vile a creature as
>> Clinton, in that he supported the rhetoric of lies and propaganda against
>> Libya and Gaddafi. He is guilty of bombing Syria, and now provoking war
>> with N Korea and Iran. Yes, he is attempting peace with Russia and China,
>> he knows where a dollar is to be made. Though it matters not, when the plan
>> is war with China, predicted by the Rand Think Tank and Pentagon in to be
>> 2030. Our continued presence of Nato on the border of Russia is not going
>> away.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Roger has just proved my point. He has assessed us as Trump
>> supporters, in spite of my statement, in spite of David Greens statement.
>> What do you think people will think of AWARE, upon receipt of our flyer?
>> And, as I said, focus on the election in order to bash the Clintons is also
>> of no value.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 18:29, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The concentration on Trump is the strategy of the (pro-)War Party
>> (the Pentagon, the 'intelligence community,' the Clinton campaign, the
>> neocons) to force the government to continue the wars and war provocations
>> of the last administrations. They think either Trump can be forced to fall
>> in line with the war policy (as he shown he’s willing to do) under the
>> threat of ‘Russiagate’ - or be replaced (with Pence, a War Party creature).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The anti-war movement has to insist that Trump - the weakest
>> president since Coolidge (“silent Cal,”|who followed the opposite
>> performance strategy to Trump's bluster) - is not the problem, but that the
>> continuing and largely unvaried Clinton-Bush-Obama war-making is. That's
>> the policy that must be resisted.  The War Party (who of course support
>> that policy) is using Trump as a distraction from that policy.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> We should be opposing the Pentagon, the CIA, the Obama-Clintonists,
>> the neocons, et al., who are promoting war provocations vs. Russia and
>> China - not bothering much with the Potemkin president.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> John Pilger saw it clearly before the election: "The CIA has
>> demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not
>> elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless
>> low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up.
>> These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the
>> multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains
>> its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with
>> China’s Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great
>> power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were
>> the issues not so dire.” —CGE
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Karen Aram via Peace <
>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I’m sorry, Carl
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I don’t like it, the title alone makes AWARE look like “Trump
>> defenders.” It’s one thing to say this in conversation when explaining our
>> wars, to those who think the problem began with Trump, but as a title, it
>> sucks. Most people in this town are Democrats and won’t bother to read it.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I’m not pleased with some of that which is in the article either,
>> because the focus  on the election is old news. Its time to move on. Trump
>> is President and he is responsible for that which occurs on his watch.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Trump bombed Syria and that is an impeachable offense, granted
>> every other President before him, committed war crimes that were also
>> impeachable offenses, Bush and most especially Obama, but Trump has been in
>> power for almost a year now. His provocations of war with Korea, and Iran
>> are extremely dangerous.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 12:46, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT THE PROBLEM:
>> >>>>>>> ILLEGAL U.S. WARS AROUND THE WORLD ARE
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The US government is today making war around the world - and it’s
>> doing so without authorization from the U.S. Constitution or the U.N.
>> Charter.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> If American leaders were put on trial today as German leaders
>> were, at Nuremberg after World War II, for “launching aggressive war,” they
>> - like the German leaders - would be hanged.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The U.S. military is today killing people in seven Mideast and
>> African countries - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and
>> Pakistan (and on the other side of the world, in the Philippines).
>> Thousands of U.S. troops are fighting in these countries, although most
>> Americans don’t know that.  In addition, the 70,000-member U.S. ‘Special
>> Operations Command’ is active in three-quarters of the countries of the
>> world. Their activities include kidnapping (‘rendition’), torture, and
>> murder.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> President Obama was elected as an anti-war candidate, but in
>> office he sent thousands of additional U.S. troops into America’s longest
>> war, in Afghanistan. President Trump, who promised caution and
>> non-interventionism in foreign policy - and described Hillary Clinton as a
>> “trigger happy warmonger” - has now done the same thing himself.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> What both men knew is that, in spite of intense media propaganda,
>> most Americans don’t want U.S. troops engaged in foreign wars and don’t see
>> the killing as justified; both candidates had to seem to oppose the wars,
>> in order to get elected.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> But the ‘one percent’ - the U.S. economic elite - do want the
>> wars.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. was the least-damaged
>> major country on either side, and controlled the world economy. America’s
>> wars since then - in Korea, Vietnam, Latin America, and the Mideast - have
>> killed between 20 and 30 million people for the purpose of maintaining that
>> control. Ordinary Americans have paid for these vicious wars, but they
>> haven’t profited from them.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded
>> Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he is not elected.
>> The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent
>> Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is up. These
>> tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar
>> business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be
>> undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China’s Xi Jinping.
>> Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace –
>> however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire."
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> We must demand that foreign military bases be closed, U.S. troops
>> (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical
>> care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans
>> immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> WRITE CONGRESS - DEMAND U.S. TROOPS & WEAPONS BE BROUGHT HOME
>> >>>>>>> Our representatives in Congress from this area - and their email
>> addresses - are as follows:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Representative Rodney Davis: <https://nam02.safelinks.prote
>> ction.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Frodneydavis.house.gov%
>> 2Fcontact%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf6
>> 66ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaa
>> aaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=xcTtdbDasaZ5ilKiNEH
>> R7Eawu6IvnWL2bnj9ZsA8q2U%3D&reserved=0>
>> >>>>>>> Senator Tammy Duckworth: <https://nam02.safelinks.prote
>> ction.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.duckworth.senate.
>> gov%2Fcontent%2Fcontact-senator&data=02%7C01%
>> 7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8
>> %7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63647651009363
>> 7620&sdata=ugx3F6jNnTw2LpZoBcxfPI9o9834%2FbvN0Itn3y%2Fe4dc%3D&reserved=0>
>> >>>>>>> Senator Dick Durbin: <https://nam02.safelinks.prote
>> ction.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.durbin.senate.gov%
>> 2Fcontact%2Femail&data=02%7C01%7Ckarenaram%40hotmail.
>> com%7Cf666ae76fb7a4230b3e308d5380383c8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb43
>> 5aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636476510093637620&sdata=kNZmKv%2F0g
>> LlwP8CkdtxIgicnw89CR2e3c%2FllkENOnJg%3D&reserved=0>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> ~~~
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT - on Facebook at <AWARE of Champaign
>> Urbana Illinois>
>> >>>>>>> ~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~
>> Universal basic income ~
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>> >>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
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>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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