From bjornsona at ameritech.net  Sun Jul  1 00:34:07 2018
From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (Anne Parkinson)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 00:34:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays
 News from Neptune
In-Reply-To: <8683FD46-5C6D-42B5-8B65-CCAF6BD2C0F1@illinois.edu>
References: <MWHPR08MB238278473DDCC525B115FAA3A34D0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <CALMNhNTV_V9ppDKoEip47Jvt1Xho72SQePYgeoo8KVQwAGEjng@mail.gmail.com>
 <8683FD46-5C6D-42B5-8B65-CCAF6BD2C0F1@illinois.edu>
Message-ID: <1978343906.925453.1530405247706@mail.yahoo.com>

Have you all seen the digital map in this article of ICE detention facilities holding children?

https://www.wired.com/story/ice-is-everywhere-using-library-science-to-map-child-separation/ 

    On Saturday, June 30, 2018 11:17 AM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
 

 This is the piece removed from her website, wasn’t it? Has it been put back?



On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:30 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

https://ocasio2018.com/issues

[...]

A Peace Economy 
Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States has entangled itself in war and occupation throughout the Middle East and North Africa. As of 2018, we are currently involved in military action in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia. Hundreds of thousands of civilians in these countries have been killed either as collateral damage from American strikes or from the instability caused by U.S. interventions. Millions more have fled their broken countries, contributing to the global refugee crisis.

This continued action damages America’s legitimacy as a force for good, creates new generations of potential terrorists, and erodes American prosperity. In times when we’re told that there’s not enough money, Republicans and corporate Democrats seem to find the cash to fund a $1.1 trillion fighter jet program or a $1.7 trillion-dollar nuclear weapon “modernization” program. The costs are extreme: the Pentagon’s budget for 2018 is $700 billion dollars: to continue fighting an endless War on Terror and refighting the Cold War with a new arms race that nobody can win.

According to the Constitution, the right to declare war belongs to the legislative body, and yet many of these global acts of aggression have never once been voted on by Congress. In some cases, we've even acted unilaterally, without the backing of the United Nations.

America should not be in the business of destabilizing countries. While we may see ourselves as liberators, the world increasingly views us as occupiers and aggressors. Alexandria believes that we must end the "forever war" by bringing our troops home, and ending the air strikes that perpetuate the cycle of terrorism throughout the world.

By bringing our troops home, we can begin to heal the wounds we're opening by continuing military engagement. We can begin to repair our image. We can reunite military families, separated by repeated deployments. We can become stronger by building stronger diplomatic and economic ties, and by saving our armed forces only for when they're truly needed.
[...]

Robert Naiman
Policy Director
Just Foreign Policy
www.justforeignpolicy.org
naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
(202) 448-2898 x1
On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

https://www.antiwar.com/blog/ 2018/06/28/as-election-day- approached-alexandria-ocasio- cortez-removed-antiwar- foreign-policy-section-from- her-we
______________________________ _________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana. net
https://lists.chambana.net/ mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss



_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss

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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sun Jul  1 02:13:38 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 02:13:38 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Medea's talk today. Food for thought
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB238242E656021E55363EFEC9A34C0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

To all those present today at Medea Benjamin’s talk. I think we’d all agree, it was excellent, and she covered everything so well, without a single note.

Special thanks go to Deb Schrishulm for making it happen. Prof. Francis Boyle for introduction,Robert Naiman for his coverage. I will send the link once the film is uploaded to UTube.

While I am very impressed with Medea’s coverage, her experience of putting herself on the line so many times. I’m reading her book now, I do have one comment that I wasn’t able to make earlier at the event.

I have a slight disagreement with Medea, and others in respect to “Russia." The assumption that “Russia cannot be trusted” was the statement, in respect to Russia supporting Iran and opposing US sanctions. 

The fact that China has refused to support US sanctions against Iran, as I would expect, means that Russia will go along with China. They have been working closely in all areas related to US hegemony, with Russia having an even greater stake in Iran remaining independent of US influence. 

Look at a map, its geopolitical, if Iran comes under US influence/control, Russia knows they are next, they’ve already been surrounded by Nato. 

Even North Korea agreeing to end its pursuit of nuclear weapons, and reuniting with South Korea, according to Pepe Escobar, is due to N.Korea’s meeting with Russia, China has Russia act as the middle man, while China will likely act as the middleman between Russia and Iran. That is the way business is conducted in Asia. North Korea, has always been about China.

Putin or Lavrov, visiting Israel, or Xi Jinping visiting anyone, is not a sign of disloyalty or betrayal of a friend, it’s the way business and diplomacy is conducted. 

The nuclear deal with Iran, was never the end of US plans to control Iran, one way or another, and this was known before Trump was elected. 

Just my thoughts, I could be wrong, but I hope I’m right for all concerned. 

From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sun Jul  1 03:38:18 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 03:38:18 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Fwd: [New post] Depraved Sociopath Bill Kristol Very
 Excited About Recent Iran Developments
References: <139971992.4853.0@wordpress.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB238284FD5CFE8701B25E1E6DA34C0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>




New post on Caitlin Johnstone
        [https://i1.wp.com/caitlinjohnstone.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/cropped-caitlinpic1.jpg?resize=32%2C32&ssl=1]
[http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/12152988a68a6d4dae7506812444c18f?s=50&d=monsterid&r=G]<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/?author=2>
Depraved Sociopath Bill Kristol Very Excited About Recent Iran Developments<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2018/07/01/depraved-sociopath-bill-kristol-very-excited-about-recent-iran-developments/>
by Caitlin Johnstone<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/?author=2>

One year after the CIA escalated covert operations in Iran, the protests across Iran are reportedly<https://twitter.com/BabakTaghvaee/status/1013176083989106688> beginning to get more violent<https://twitter.com/BabakTaghvaee/status/1013167998092435456>. This is happening on the same day the Iranian terror cult<https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/that-time-john-bolton-promised-regime-change-in-iran-before-2019-fa9be9dd2e5d> MEK hosted Rudolph Giuliani and Newt Gingrich<https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/30/rudy-giuliani-mek-iran-paris-rally> in a pro-regime change rally that was so sparsely attended that half the audience<https://twitter.com/a_merat/status/1013075323209035777> consisted of bused-in Europeans unaffiliated with the cause<https://twitter.com/hmajd/status/1013197373483487234>.

"We are now realistically being able to see an end to the regime in Iran,” said Giuliani, who earlier this year infamously led a "Regime change! Regime change!" chant<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ouaJ16Lyds> at a related MEK event.

“The mullahs must go, the ayatollah must go, and they must be replaced by a democratic government which Madam Rajavi represents,” Giuliani said in reference to MEK cult leader Maryam Rajavi<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryam_Rajavi>.

“Freedom is right around the corner," added Giuliani, who is currently serving as President Trump's lawyer. "Next year I want to have this convention in Tehran!”

MEK expert @joanne_stocker<https://twitter.com/joanne_stocker?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw> estimates that @AmbJohnBolton<https://twitter.com/AmbJohnBolton?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw> has been paid upwards of $180K by the group to speak at its events. Now he's in a position to advocate for it from inside the White House. @RichardEngel<https://twitter.com/RichardEngel?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw>#OnAssignment<https://twitter.com/hashtag/OnAssignment?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw> pic.twitter.com/kxoi2FQ5dn<https://t.co/kxoi2FQ5dn>

— On Assignment with Richard Engel (@OARichardEngel) May 27, 2018<https://twitter.com/OARichardEngel/status/1000697271787360256?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw>

So things appear to be escalating. We saw very similar situations in the lead-up to both Libya and Syria, right up to and including the shady ties with the suspiciously well-funded extremist group<https://twitter.com/OARichardEngel/status/1000697271787360256>. We can expect the CIA operations, propaganda and psyops to combine with the effects of starvation sanctions in a way which leads to widespread chaos, which we can expect to see erupt into violence of disputed origin, which we can then expect to see blamed solely on Tehran, which we can then expect to see elicit calls for humanitarian interventionism. Just like Libya and Syria. If the formula ain't broke, why fix it?

And the bloodthirsty warmongers of Washington couldn't be more thrilled.

"A democratic Iran not only would free Iranians from repressive theocracy but produce closer ties between our two countries; real security, economic , and moral benefits for both Iranians and Americans," contributed<https://twitter.com/McFaul/status/1013125459922452480> Michael McFaul, an ambassador to Russia during the Obama administration.

"Very true," tweeted<https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1013127281559113729> Iraq war architect and PNAC founder William Kristol. "And great to see a bipartisan consensus for regime change in Iran! (It would be happily ironic if, totally inadvertently, tough sanctions followed by the JCPOA followed by withdrawal from the deal caused so much whiplash that the regime crumbled.)"

This is Bill. Bill is always wrong about everything. Bill has always supported regime change in Iran. Don't be like Bill. https://t.co/ABOm4Opd1l

— Caitlin Johnstone (@caitoz) June 30, 2018<https://twitter.com/caitoz/status/1013158659038142464?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw>

The word "bipartisan" is a popular buzzword in establishment politics, because since the two-headed uniparty has worked so hard creating the illusion of opposition among its leaders and very real hatred across America's fake political divide, the sight of these two groups getting together on something can be spun to give the impression that it must be a very commonsense and important pro-human agenda. Really, though, what it generally means in practice is neoconservative Republicans and neoconservative Democrats getting together to do something horrible.

Bill Kristol used his influence in the Bush administration<https://www.haaretz.com/amp/1.4764706> to advance the agenda that his Project for the New American Century think tank had laid out several years earlier<https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/why-america-acts-so-goddamn-crazy-c3a3d8ceca92> for US military-enforced planetary domination. It began with the catastrophic and unforgivable invasion of Iraq, but according to US General Wesley Clark<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw> the plan once if got through to the Pentagon was to take out six more governments after that: Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and, finishing off, Iran.

Kristol lost some credibility as the actual horror of what the Iraq invasion had unleashed upon the world began to really sink in to social consciousness, but since 2016 he has rehabilitated his image<https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/iraq-raping-neocons-are-suddenly-posing-as-woke-progressives-to-gain-support-289fa527f3f8> by forming a close anti-Trump alliance with the birthplace of neoconservatism: the Democratic Party. Kristol is now one of #Resistance Twitter's most popular pundits and a regular guest analyst on liberal cable TV due to his staunch support for neoconservative policies that this administration claims to oppose, including escalations against Russia.

Bill Kristol wants to rape Iran. Bill Kristol has always wanted to rape Iran. Bill Kristol has advocated disastrous regime change intervention after disastrous regime change intervention throughout his entire corrupt, blood-soaked career, and he has always been wrong. Every single time. If the regime change cheerleading of this virulent Never-Trump neoconservative failmeister doesn't tell Trump supporters that they're on the wrong side of this issue, I don't know what will.

__________________

Internet censorship is getting pretty bad, so best way to keep seeing the stuff I publish is to get on the mailing list for my website<http://caitlinjohnstone.com/>, so you’ll get an email notification for everything I publish. My articles and podcasts are entirely reader and listener-funded, so if you enjoyed this piece please consider sharing it around, liking me on Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/CaitlinAJohnstone/>, following my antics on Twitter<https://twitter.com/caitoz>, checking out my podcast<https://soundcloud.com/going_rogue>, throwing some money into my hat onPatreon<https://www.patreon.com/user?u=4445783> or Paypal<http://paypal.me/caitlinjohnstone>, or buying my book Woke: A Field Guide for Utopia Preppers<https://www.amazon.com/Woke-Field-Guide-Utopia-Preppers/dp/064823455X/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8>.

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Bitcoin donations:1Ac7PCQXoQoLA9Sh8fhAgiU3PHA2EX5Zm2

Caitlin Johnstone<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/?author=2> | July 1, 2018 at 2:36 am | Tags: bill kristol<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/?taxonomy=post_tag&term=bill-kristol>, Iran<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/?taxonomy=post_tag&term=iran>, neocon<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/?taxonomy=post_tag&term=neocon>, protests<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/?taxonomy=post_tag&term=protests> | Categories: Article<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/?taxonomy=category&term=article>, News<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/?taxonomy=category&term=news> | URL: https://wp.me/p9tj6M-1gh

Comment<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2018/07/01/depraved-sociopath-bill-kristol-very-excited-about-recent-iran-developments/#respond>      See all comments<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2018/07/01/depraved-sociopath-bill-kristol-very-excited-about-recent-iran-developments/#comments>




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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sun Jul  1 12:47:17 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 12:47:17 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Medea's talk today. Food for thought
In-Reply-To: <2BC8BBD0-31F9-4608-BFA1-783FF8BBCBDE@illinois.edu>
References: <MWHPR08MB238242E656021E55363EFEC9A34C0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <2BC8BBD0-31F9-4608-BFA1-783FF8BBCBDE@illinois.edu>
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB23827CD2AE05CD35B467F4F0A34C0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

Carl

I don’t believe I’m being hesitant at all, rather bold, to be in disagreement with Medea, but I have disagreed with great people before. 

I do not see this as a Democrat vs. Republican issue. I believe its the US assumption that something is either “right or wrong,” and we see “playing both sides” as duplicitous. As I’ve explained to Europeans, when they question why Americans never take into consideration the “will of the people” its because we don’t have a parliamentary system, within which opposing groups are forced to work together. With Americans its always a “winner take all,” scenario.]

 When small vulnerable nations, non nuclear, play both sides, for ex: Duerte, of the Philippines says awful things about America, we see him moving closer to China, along with the ICC decision related to the disputed island in the South China Sea, giving the island to the Philippines was ignored by him. Yes, he closed down some US military bases in the south, but has he yet closed them down in the north, the most important ones, targetting China, I don’t think so. We see his FP as duplicitous. Its seen by Asians as survival, working with others in partnership is seen as survival, as opposed to the US marketing strategy of “killing the competition.” Our FP is similar to our marketing strategies.

Putin, and Lavrov are very smart people, and though I’m no expert on Russian culture, nor do I know who is behind the scenes, I don’t think they are going to allow Iran be taken over by the US, its in their best interests and a matter of survival. China has taken the lead, and I fully expect Russia to follow. 

Just as many believe China will save Venezuela, if they don’t there is no hope for that impoverished, oil rich nation. 





 
> On Jul 1, 2018, at 00:16, Carl G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu> wrote:
> 
> Karen—
> 
> I think your hesitation is appropriate and should lead us to a discussion of US relations with Russia and China, against the massive propaganda of the corporate media.
> 
> Many American liberals display a ‘partisan taint’ in their acceptance of the Democrat party’s account of foreign relations, including ‘Russiagate.’
> 
> As Bruce Dixon points out, "Bernie Sanders calls himself a socialist too, just with an imperialist foreign policy."
> 
> That’s not only wrong but dangerous, in that it undermines the dismantling of the last administration's war provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the S. China Sea.
> 
> Perhaps that’s easier to see away from the US media miasma: the Australian journalist and filmmaker John Pilger wrote before the presidential election, "The CIA has demanded Trump not be elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he not be elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he not be elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Russian president Putin, then with China’s president Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire…”
> 
> Sen. Durbin’s letter to VP Pence (posted on the AWARE fb page) shows how deep and dangerous the taint is. The anti-war movement needs to resist these Democrats - and their sympathizers. 
> 
> —CGE
> 
> 
>> On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:13 PM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> 
>> To all those present today at Medea Benjamin’s talk. I think we’d all agree, it was excellent, and she covered everything so well, without a single note.
>> 
>> Special thanks go to Deb Schrishulm for making it happen. Prof. Francis Boyle for introduction,Robert Naiman for his coverage. I will send the link once the film is uploaded to UTube.
>> 
>> While I am very impressed with Medea’s coverage, her experience of putting herself on the line so many times. I’m reading her book now, I do have one comment that I wasn’t able to make earlier at the event.
>> 
>> I have a slight disagreement with Medea, and others in respect to “Russia." The assumption that “Russia cannot be trusted” was the statement, in respect to Russia supporting Iran and opposing US sanctions. 
>> 
>> The fact that China has refused to support US sanctions against Iran, as I would expect, means that Russia will go along with China. They have been working closely in all areas related to US hegemony, with Russia having an even greater stake in Iran remaining independent of US influence. 
>> 
>> Look at a map, its geopolitical, if Iran comes under US influence/control, Russia knows they are next, they’ve already been surrounded by Nato. 
>> 
>> Even North Korea agreeing to end its pursuit of nuclear weapons, and reuniting with South Korea, according to Pepe Escobar, is due to N.Korea’s meeting with Russia, China has Russia act as the middle man, while China will likely act as the middleman between Russia and Iran. That is the way business is conducted in Asia. North Korea, has always been about China.
>> 
>> Putin or Lavrov, visiting Israel, or Xi Jinping visiting anyone, is not a sign of disloyalty or betrayal of a friend, it’s the way business and diplomacy is conducted. 
>> 
>> The nuclear deal with Iran, was never the end of US plans to control Iran, one way or another, and this was known before Trump was elected. 
>> 
>> Just my thoughts, I could be wrong, but I hope I’m right for all concerned. 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Peace mailing list
>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
> 


From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sun Jul  1 13:38:17 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 13:38:17 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Medea's talk today. Food for thought
In-Reply-To: <28A852C1-56D0-4214-B30C-7CFD7CD5513B@illinois.edu>
References: <MWHPR08MB238242E656021E55363EFEC9A34C0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <2BC8BBD0-31F9-4608-BFA1-783FF8BBCBDE@illinois.edu>
 <MWHPR08MB23827CD2AE05CD35B467F4F0A34C0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <28A852C1-56D0-4214-B30C-7CFD7CD5513B@illinois.edu>
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB23824DED7CCCA214855449DFA34C0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

Yes, everything in relation to US FP, the nations we are destroying in the Magreb, Asia, and soon the Sahel, is about control of Russia, and China. And, they know it very well. 

In fact, our military knows war with Iran would be a disaster which is why they are focusing on internal regime change by way of sanctions, interventions, and propaganda. 

In the meantime with Africom in all but one nation of Africa, we can see much of the same across the Sahel that we’ve seen across the Magreb. That is not to say “war” with Iran is not a potential threat. Anything can happen, and bombing them to create chaos, and ensure they don’t go nuclear is likely a goal. A guess on my part.


> On Jul 1, 2018, at 06:24, Carl G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu> wrote:
> 
> No, I don’t think you’re being hesitant. By ‘hesitation’ I meant your "slight disagreement … in respect to Russia.” Your disagreement is quite appropriate.
> 
> Since WWII, Russia and China been at the heart of US foreign policy (and perhaps earlier, a la Mackinder). The paramount concern of the US has been that no ‘peer competitor’ (in Brzezinski’s phrase) arise in Eurasia.
> 
> In the 70 years since the end of WWII, the US has killed more than 20 million people in wars designed to maintain the global economic hegemony that the US obtained as the only undamaged major country in World War II. George Kennan pointed out in a "top secret” State Department memo in1948,
> 
> “...we have about 50% of the world's wealth but only 6.3% of its population. This disparity is particularly great as between ourselves and the peoples of Asia. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national security. To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and world-benefaction."
> 
> Fifty years ago, after the 1967 war that destroyed secular Arab nationalism, the US adopted Israel as our 'stationary aircraft carrier' in the Mideast, in order to use control of energy flows out of the Persian Gulf as a weapon against our economic rivals from Germany to China.
> 
> Forty years ago, the US gathered Muslim radicals, armed them, and sent them into Afghanistan (before the Russian invasion) in order to destroy Russian influence in 'Pipelinistan.' (See <https://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/>.)
> 
> These events were bracketed by the US coup against the government of Iran in 1953 and the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 - international crimes the US leaders of which would have been hanged, were the Nuremberg rules applied.
> 
> So today the US is making war in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Pakistan, Somalia, Syria, &  Yemen - principally to control the flow of oil out of the Mideast and North Africa. We remain, as ML King said long ago, "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today" - for the profits of the US 1%.
> 
> That’s worth disagreeing about. —CGE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jul 1, 2018, at 7:47 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Carl
>> 
>> I don’t believe I’m being hesitant at all, rather bold, to be in disagreement with Medea, but I have disagreed with great people before. 
>> 
>> I do not see this as a Democrat vs. Republican issue. I believe its the US assumption that something is either “right or wrong,” and we see “playing both sides” as duplicitous. As I’ve explained to Europeans, when they question why Americans never take into consideration the “will of the people” its because we don’t have a parliamentary system, within which opposing groups are forced to work together. With Americans its always a “winner take all,” scenario.]
>> 
>> When small vulnerable nations, non nuclear, play both sides, for ex: Duerte, of the Philippines says awful things about America, we see him moving closer to China, along with the ICC decision related to the disputed island in the South China Sea, giving the island to the Philippines was ignored by him. Yes, he closed down some US military bases in the south, but has he yet closed them down in the north, the most important ones, targetting China, I don’t think so. We see his FP as duplicitous. Its seen by Asians as survival, working with others in partnership is seen as survival, as opposed to the US marketing strategy of “killing the competition.” Our FP is similar to our marketing strategies.
>> 
>> Putin, and Lavrov are very smart people, and though I’m no expert on Russian culture, nor do I know who is behind the scenes, I don’t think they are going to allow Iran be taken over by the US, its in their best interests and a matter of survival. China has taken the lead, and I fully expect Russia to follow. 
>> 
>> Just as many believe China will save Venezuela, if they don’t there is no hope for that impoverished, oil rich nation. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jul 1, 2018, at 00:16, Carl G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Karen—
>>> 
>>> I think your hesitation is appropriate and should lead us to a discussion of US relations with Russia and China, against the massive propaganda of the corporate media.
>>> 
>>> Many American liberals display a ‘partisan taint’ in their acceptance of the Democrat party’s account of foreign relations, including ‘Russiagate.’
>>> 
>>> As Bruce Dixon points out, "Bernie Sanders calls himself a socialist too, just with an imperialist foreign policy."
>>> 
>>> That’s not only wrong but dangerous, in that it undermines the dismantling of the last administration's war provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the S. China Sea.
>>> 
>>> Perhaps that’s easier to see away from the US media miasma: the Australian journalist and filmmaker John Pilger wrote before the presidential election, "The CIA has demanded Trump not be elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he not be elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he not be elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Russian president Putin, then with China’s president Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire…”
>>> 
>>> Sen. Durbin’s letter to VP Pence (posted on the AWARE fb page) shows how deep and dangerous the taint is. The anti-war movement needs to resist these Democrats - and their sympathizers. 
>>> 
>>> —CGE
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:13 PM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> To all those present today at Medea Benjamin’s talk. I think we’d all agree, it was excellent, and she covered everything so well, without a single note.
>>>> 
>>>> Special thanks go to Deb Schrishulm for making it happen. Prof. Francis Boyle for introduction,Robert Naiman for his coverage. I will send the link once the film is uploaded to UTube.
>>>> 
>>>> While I am very impressed with Medea’s coverage, her experience of putting herself on the line so many times. I’m reading her book now, I do have one comment that I wasn’t able to make earlier at the event.
>>>> 
>>>> I have a slight disagreement with Medea, and others in respect to “Russia." The assumption that “Russia cannot be trusted” was the statement, in respect to Russia supporting Iran and opposing US sanctions. 
>>>> 
>>>> The fact that China has refused to support US sanctions against Iran, as I would expect, means that Russia will go along with China. They have been working closely in all areas related to US hegemony, with Russia having an even greater stake in Iran remaining independent of US influence. 
>>>> 
>>>> Look at a map, its geopolitical, if Iran comes under US influence/control, Russia knows they are next, they’ve already been surrounded by Nato. 
>>>> 
>>>> Even North Korea agreeing to end its pursuit of nuclear weapons, and reuniting with South Korea, according to Pepe Escobar, is due to N.Korea’s meeting with Russia, China has Russia act as the middle man, while China will likely act as the middleman between Russia and Iran. That is the way business is conducted in Asia. North Korea, has always been about China.
>>>> 
>>>> Putin or Lavrov, visiting Israel, or Xi Jinping visiting anyone, is not a sign of disloyalty or betrayal of a friend, it’s the way business and diplomacy is conducted. 
>>>> 
>>>> The nuclear deal with Iran, was never the end of US plans to control Iran, one way or another, and this was known before Trump was elected. 
>>>> 
>>>> Just my thoughts, I could be wrong, but I hope I’m right for all concerned. 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Peace mailing list
>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Peace mailing list
>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
> 


From naiman at justforeignpolicy.org  Sun Jul  1 16:58:23 2018
From: naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (Robert Naiman)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 11:58:23 -0500
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss]  Medea's talk today. Food for thought
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR08MB23824DED7CCCA214855449DFA34C0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MWHPR08MB238242E656021E55363EFEC9A34C0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <2BC8BBD0-31F9-4608-BFA1-783FF8BBCBDE@illinois.edu>
 <MWHPR08MB23827CD2AE05CD35B467F4F0A34C0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <28A852C1-56D0-4214-B30C-7CFD7CD5513B@illinois.edu>
 <MWHPR08MB23824DED7CCCA214855449DFA34C0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CALMNhNQLsRWDuMO+hu2fzENrPs_b5Jpt-dg9-1kp1DVYWKy36w@mail.gmail.com>

You guys are all totally missing the boat on what Medea said and what she
meant.

All she was saying was: you can't assume that Russia will resist Trump on
U.S. sanctions and pressure against Iran. That's all.

Russia is a country that has interests. China is a country that has
interests. Every country has interests, as they perceive them.

There is no government in the world, no matter how progressive or militant
or opposed to the U.S., that will not take its own interests as they
perceive them into account in confronting the U.S. That includes Cuba under
Fidel Castro, Venezuela under Hugo Chavez, Ecuador under Rafael Correa,
Bolivia under Evo Morales. None of them will fight the U.S. every time.
They will choose their battles, taking their own interests into account as
they perceive them. That's all Medea was saying. Russia went along with
U.S. sanctions against Iran in the past. China went along with U.S.
sanctions against Iran in the past. You can't assume that these people are
going to resist the U.S. at a particular juncture, even if they say they
will, if they perceive it to be in their interests not to.

John Bolton would trade confrontation with Russia for Russian cooperation
against Iran in a heartbeat. What price would Putin demand in exchange for
what? Who can say that they know that for sure?

Russia was allied with the Kurds in northern Syria, until Russia sold out
the Kurds to the Turks, because they thought it suited their interests to
do so. The U.S. was allied with the Kurds in northern Syria, until the U.S.
sold out the Kurds to the Turks, because they thought it suited their
interests to do so. What's the difference?

The U.S. has tremendous power in the international system, particularly
when it focuses on one goal - like messing with Iran - at the expense of
others - like messing with North Korea. That's what makes the current
situation so dangerous with respect to Iran and the Middle East,
particularly, right now, Yemen, because that's where the U.S. is
"confronting Iran" right now, even though [because?] the Iranian role in
Yemen is small.





Robert Naiman
Policy Director
Just Foreign Policy
www.justforeignpolicy.org
naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
(202) 448-2898 x1




On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss <
peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

> Yes, everything in relation to US FP, the nations we are destroying in the
> Magreb, Asia, and soon the Sahel, is about control of Russia, and China.
> And, they know it very well.
>
> In fact, our military knows war with Iran would be a disaster which is why
> they are focusing on internal regime change by way of sanctions,
> interventions, and propaganda.
>
> In the meantime with Africom in all but one nation of Africa, we can see
> much of the same across the Sahel that we’ve seen across the Magreb. That
> is not to say “war” with Iran is not a potential threat. Anything can
> happen, and bombing them to create chaos, and ensure they don’t go nuclear
> is likely a goal. A guess on my part.
>
>
> > On Jul 1, 2018, at 06:24, Carl G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> > No, I don’t think you’re being hesitant. By ‘hesitation’ I meant your
> "slight disagreement … in respect to Russia.” Your disagreement is quite
> appropriate.
> >
> > Since WWII, Russia and China been at the heart of US foreign policy (and
> perhaps earlier, a la Mackinder). The paramount concern of the US has been
> that no ‘peer competitor’ (in Brzezinski’s phrase) arise in Eurasia.
> >
> > In the 70 years since the end of WWII, the US has killed more than 20
> million people in wars designed to maintain the global economic hegemony
> that the US obtained as the only undamaged major country in World War II.
> George Kennan pointed out in a "top secret” State Department memo in1948,
> >
> > “...we have about 50% of the world's wealth but only 6.3% of its
> population. This disparity is particularly great as between ourselves and
> the peoples of Asia. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of
> envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a
> pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of
> disparity without positive detriment to our national security. To do so, we
> will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our
> attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national
> objectives. We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the
> luxury of altruism and world-benefaction."
> >
> > Fifty years ago, after the 1967 war that destroyed secular Arab
> nationalism, the US adopted Israel as our 'stationary aircraft carrier' in
> the Mideast, in order to use control of energy flows out of the Persian
> Gulf as a weapon against our economic rivals from Germany to China.
> >
> > Forty years ago, the US gathered Muslim radicals, armed them, and sent
> them into Afghanistan (before the Russian invasion) in order to destroy
> Russian influence in 'Pipelinistan.' (See <https://www.counterpunch.org/
> 1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/>.)
> >
> > These events were bracketed by the US coup against the government of
> Iran in 1953 and the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 - international crimes the
> US leaders of which would have been hanged, were the Nuremberg rules
> applied.
> >
> > So today the US is making war in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Pakistan,
> Somalia, Syria, &  Yemen - principally to control the flow of oil out of
> the Mideast and North Africa. We remain, as ML King said long ago, "the
> greatest purveyor of violence in the world today" - for the profits of the
> US 1%.
> >
> > That’s worth disagreeing about. —CGE
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Jul 1, 2018, at 7:47 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <
> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Carl
> >>
> >> I don’t believe I’m being hesitant at all, rather bold, to be in
> disagreement with Medea, but I have disagreed with great people before.
> >>
> >> I do not see this as a Democrat vs. Republican issue. I believe its the
> US assumption that something is either “right or wrong,” and we see
> “playing both sides” as duplicitous. As I’ve explained to Europeans, when
> they question why Americans never take into consideration the “will of the
> people” its because we don’t have a parliamentary system, within which
> opposing groups are forced to work together. With Americans its always a
> “winner take all,” scenario.]
> >>
> >> When small vulnerable nations, non nuclear, play both sides, for ex:
> Duerte, of the Philippines says awful things about America, we see him
> moving closer to China, along with the ICC decision related to the disputed
> island in the South China Sea, giving the island to the Philippines was
> ignored by him. Yes, he closed down some US military bases in the south,
> but has he yet closed them down in the north, the most important ones,
> targetting China, I don’t think so. We see his FP as duplicitous. Its seen
> by Asians as survival, working with others in partnership is seen as
> survival, as opposed to the US marketing strategy of “killing the
> competition.” Our FP is similar to our marketing strategies.
> >>
> >> Putin, and Lavrov are very smart people, and though I’m no expert on
> Russian culture, nor do I know who is behind the scenes, I don’t think they
> are going to allow Iran be taken over by the US, its in their best
> interests and a matter of survival. China has taken the lead, and I fully
> expect Russia to follow.
> >>
> >> Just as many believe China will save Venezuela, if they don’t there is
> no hope for that impoverished, oil rich nation.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Jul 1, 2018, at 00:16, Carl G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Karen—
> >>>
> >>> I think your hesitation is appropriate and should lead us to a
> discussion of US relations with Russia and China, against the massive
> propaganda of the corporate media.
> >>>
> >>> Many American liberals display a ‘partisan taint’ in their acceptance
> of the Democrat party’s account of foreign relations, including
> ‘Russiagate.’
> >>>
> >>> As Bruce Dixon points out, "Bernie Sanders calls himself a socialist
> too, just with an imperialist foreign policy."
> >>>
> >>> That’s not only wrong but dangerous, in that it undermines the
> dismantling of the last administration's war provocations against Russia
> and China, from Ukraine to the S. China Sea.
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps that’s easier to see away from the US media miasma: the
> Australian journalist and filmmaker John Pilger wrote before the
> presidential election, "The CIA has demanded Trump not be elected. Pentagon
> generals have demanded he not be elected. The pro-war New York Times -
> taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that
> he not be elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are
> terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United
> States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with
> Russian president Putin, then with China’s president Xi Jinping. Their
> panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however
> unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire…”
> >>>
> >>> Sen. Durbin’s letter to VP Pence (posted on the AWARE fb page) shows
> how deep and dangerous the taint is. The anti-war movement needs to resist
> these Democrats - and their sympathizers.
> >>>
> >>> —CGE
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:13 PM, Karen Aram via Peace <
> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> To all those present today at Medea Benjamin’s talk. I think we’d all
> agree, it was excellent, and she covered everything so well, without a
> single note.
> >>>>
> >>>> Special thanks go to Deb Schrishulm for making it happen. Prof.
> Francis Boyle for introduction,Robert Naiman for his coverage. I will send
> the link once the film is uploaded to UTube.
> >>>>
> >>>> While I am very impressed with Medea’s coverage, her experience of
> putting herself on the line so many times. I’m reading her book now, I do
> have one comment that I wasn’t able to make earlier at the event.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have a slight disagreement with Medea, and others in respect to
> “Russia." The assumption that “Russia cannot be trusted” was the statement,
> in respect to Russia supporting Iran and opposing US sanctions.
> >>>>
> >>>> The fact that China has refused to support US sanctions against Iran,
> as I would expect, means that Russia will go along with China. They have
> been working closely in all areas related to US hegemony, with Russia
> having an even greater stake in Iran remaining independent of US influence.
> >>>>
> >>>> Look at a map, its geopolitical, if Iran comes under US
> influence/control, Russia knows they are next, they’ve already been
> surrounded by Nato.
> >>>>
> >>>> Even North Korea agreeing to end its pursuit of nuclear weapons, and
> reuniting with South Korea, according to Pepe Escobar, is due to N.Korea’s
> meeting with Russia, China has Russia act as the middle man, while China
> will likely act as the middleman between Russia and Iran. That is the way
> business is conducted in Asia. North Korea, has always been about China.
> >>>>
> >>>> Putin or Lavrov, visiting Israel, or Xi Jinping visiting anyone, is
> not a sign of disloyalty or betrayal of a friend, it’s the way business and
> diplomacy is conducted.
> >>>>
> >>>> The nuclear deal with Iran, was never the end of US plans to control
> Iran, one way or another, and this was known before Trump was elected.
> >>>>
> >>>> Just my thoughts, I could be wrong, but I hope I’m right for all
> concerned.
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Peace mailing list
> >>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
> >>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Peace mailing list
> >> Peace at lists.chambana.net
> >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sun Jul  1 17:46:59 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 17:46:59 +0000
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss]  Medea's talk today. Food for thought
In-Reply-To: <CALMNhNQLsRWDuMO+hu2fzENrPs_b5Jpt-dg9-1kp1DVYWKy36w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <MWHPR08MB238242E656021E55363EFEC9A34C0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <2BC8BBD0-31F9-4608-BFA1-783FF8BBCBDE@illinois.edu>
 <MWHPR08MB23827CD2AE05CD35B467F4F0A34C0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <28A852C1-56D0-4214-B30C-7CFD7CD5513B@illinois.edu>
 <MWHPR08MB23824DED7CCCA214855449DFA34C0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <CALMNhNQLsRWDuMO+hu2fzENrPs_b5Jpt-dg9-1kp1DVYWKy36w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB2382A5C35565C79037B31382A34C0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

Robert,

Yes precisely, Russia like all other nations has its interests, and that interest is its own survival, if Iran goes under US control, Russia’s survival is in jeopardy.

In respect to Russia, Medea said, “no, we can’t trust Russia” This was in respect to support for Iran, when Prof. Boyle announced China’s decision “not to support US sanctions on Iran.”

As you point out:

"All she was saying was: you can't assume that Russia will resist Trump on U.S. sanctions and pressure against Iran. That’s all."

I understand your point, but as I keep pointing out, support for Iran is paramount to Russia’s survival. This alone is the reason I believe Russia and China will jointly support Iran, carefully and slowly in respect to “sanctions” rather than with open confrontation.

When the Iranian government appears to be falling, due to those sanctions, with the potential for a US puppet being put in place, they will step in.

 I think we can all agree one of the most dangerous situations has been Russia s protection of Syria from the US insurgency, another necessity, due to Russia’s interests and US intervention and meddling.

As to the US being the most powerful nation in the world, yes our military power, the US empire is dying, and everyone knows that, at least in other parts of the world. There is nothing more dangerous than a cornered beast, or a retreating army.


On Jul 1, 2018, at 09:58, Robert Naiman <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org<mailto:naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>> wrote:

You guys are all totally missing the boat on what Medea said and what she meant.

All she was saying was: you can't assume that Russia will resist Trump on U.S. sanctions and pressure against Iran. That's all.

Russia is a country that has interests. China is a country that has interests. Every country has interests, as they perceive them.

There is no government in the world, no matter how progressive or militant or opposed to the U.S., that will not take its own interests as they perceive them into account in confronting the U.S. That includes Cuba under Fidel Castro, Venezuela under Hugo Chavez, Ecuador under Rafael Correa, Bolivia under Evo Morales. None of them will fight the U.S. every time. They will choose their battles, taking their own interests into account as they perceive them. That's all Medea was saying. Russia went along with U.S. sanctions against Iran in the past. China went along with U.S. sanctions against Iran in the past. You can't assume that these people are going to resist the U.S. at a particular juncture, even if they say they will, if they perceive it to be in their interests not to.

John Bolton would trade confrontation with Russia for Russian cooperation against Iran in a heartbeat. What price would Putin demand in exchange for what? Who can say that they know that for sure?

Russia was allied with the Kurds in northern Syria, until Russia sold out the Kurds to the Turks, because they thought it suited their interests to do so. The U.S. was allied with the Kurds in northern Syria, until the U.S. sold out the Kurds to the Turks, because they thought it suited their interests to do so. What's the difference?

The U.S. has tremendous power in the international system, particularly when it focuses on one goal - like messing with Iran - at the expense of others - like messing with North Korea. That's what makes the current situation so dangerous with respect to Iran and the Middle East, particularly, right now, Yemen, because that's where the U.S. is "confronting Iran" right now, even though [because?] the Iranian role in Yemen is small.





Robert Naiman
Policy Director
Just Foreign Policy
www.justforeignpolicy.org<http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/>
naiman at justforeignpolicy.org<mailto:naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
(202) 448-2898 x1




On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
Yes, everything in relation to US FP, the nations we are destroying in the Magreb, Asia, and soon the Sahel, is about control of Russia, and China. And, they know it very well.

In fact, our military knows war with Iran would be a disaster which is why they are focusing on internal regime change by way of sanctions, interventions, and propaganda.

In the meantime with Africom in all but one nation of Africa, we can see much of the same across the Sahel that we’ve seen across the Magreb. That is not to say “war” with Iran is not a potential threat. Anything can happen, and bombing them to create chaos, and ensure they don’t go nuclear is likely a goal. A guess on my part.


> On Jul 1, 2018, at 06:24, Carl G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu<mailto:galliher at illinois.edu>> wrote:
>
> No, I don’t think you’re being hesitant. By ‘hesitation’ I meant your "slight disagreement … in respect to Russia.” Your disagreement is quite appropriate.
>
> Since WWII, Russia and China been at the heart of US foreign policy (and perhaps earlier, a la Mackinder). The paramount concern of the US has been that no ‘peer competitor’ (in Brzezinski’s phrase) arise in Eurasia.
>
> In the 70 years since the end of WWII, the US has killed more than 20 million people in wars designed to maintain the global economic hegemony that the US obtained as the only undamaged major country in World War II. George Kennan pointed out in a "top secret” State Department memo in1948,
>
> “...we have about 50% of the world's wealth but only 6.3% of its population. This disparity is particularly great as between ourselves and the peoples of Asia. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national security. To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and world-benefaction."
>
> Fifty years ago, after the 1967 war that destroyed secular Arab nationalism, the US adopted Israel as our 'stationary aircraft carrier' in the Mideast, in order to use control of energy flows out of the Persian Gulf as a weapon against our economic rivals from Germany to China.
>
> Forty years ago, the US gathered Muslim radicals, armed them, and sent them into Afghanistan (before the Russian invasion) in order to destroy Russian influence in 'Pipelinistan.' (See <https://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/>.)
>
> These events were bracketed by the US coup against the government of Iran in 1953 and the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 - international crimes the US leaders of which would have been hanged, were the Nuremberg rules applied.
>
> So today the US is making war in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Pakistan, Somalia, Syria, &  Yemen - principally to control the flow of oil out of the Mideast and North Africa. We remain, as ML King said long ago, "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today" - for the profits of the US 1%.
>
> That’s worth disagreeing about. —CGE
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Jul 1, 2018, at 7:47 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> I don’t believe I’m being hesitant at all, rather bold, to be in disagreement with Medea, but I have disagreed with great people before.
>>
>> I do not see this as a Democrat vs. Republican issue. I believe its the US assumption that something is either “right or wrong,” and we see “playing both sides” as duplicitous. As I’ve explained to Europeans, when they question why Americans never take into consideration the “will of the people” its because we don’t have a parliamentary system, within which opposing groups are forced to work together. With Americans its always a “winner take all,” scenario.]
>>
>> When small vulnerable nations, non nuclear, play both sides, for ex: Duerte, of the Philippines says awful things about America, we see him moving closer to China, along with the ICC decision related to the disputed island in the South China Sea, giving the island to the Philippines was ignored by him. Yes, he closed down some US military bases in the south, but has he yet closed them down in the north, the most important ones, targetting China, I don’t think so. We see his FP as duplicitous. Its seen by Asians as survival, working with others in partnership is seen as survival, as opposed to the US marketing strategy of “killing the competition.” Our FP is similar to our marketing strategies.
>>
>> Putin, and Lavrov are very smart people, and though I’m no expert on Russian culture, nor do I know who is behind the scenes, I don’t think they are going to allow Iran be taken over by the US, its in their best interests and a matter of survival. China has taken the lead, and I fully expect Russia to follow.
>>
>> Just as many believe China will save Venezuela, if they don’t there is no hope for that impoverished, oil rich nation.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 1, 2018, at 00:16, Carl G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu<mailto:galliher at illinois.edu>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Karen—
>>>
>>> I think your hesitation is appropriate and should lead us to a discussion of US relations with Russia and China, against the massive propaganda of the corporate media.
>>>
>>> Many American liberals display a ‘partisan taint’ in their acceptance of the Democrat party’s account of foreign relations, including ‘Russiagate.’
>>>
>>> As Bruce Dixon points out, "Bernie Sanders calls himself a socialist too, just with an imperialist foreign policy."
>>>
>>> That’s not only wrong but dangerous, in that it undermines the dismantling of the last administration's war provocations against Russia and China, from Ukraine to the S. China Sea.
>>>
>>> Perhaps that’s easier to see away from the US media miasma: the Australian journalist and filmmaker John Pilger wrote before the presidential election, "The CIA has demanded Trump not be elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he not be elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he not be elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Russian president Putin, then with China’s president Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire…”
>>>
>>> Sen. Durbin’s letter to VP Pence (posted on the AWARE fb page) shows how deep and dangerous the taint is. The anti-war movement needs to resist these Democrats - and their sympathizers.
>>>
>>> —CGE
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:13 PM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> To all those present today at Medea Benjamin’s talk. I think we’d all agree, it was excellent, and she covered everything so well, without a single note.
>>>>
>>>> Special thanks go to Deb Schrishulm for making it happen. Prof. Francis Boyle for introduction,Robert Naiman for his coverage. I will send the link once the film is uploaded to UTube.
>>>>
>>>> While I am very impressed with Medea’s coverage, her experience of putting herself on the line so many times. I’m reading her book now, I do have one comment that I wasn’t able to make earlier at the event.
>>>>
>>>> I have a slight disagreement with Medea, and others in respect to “Russia." The assumption that “Russia cannot be trusted” was the statement, in respect to Russia supporting Iran and opposing US sanctions.
>>>>
>>>> The fact that China has refused to support US sanctions against Iran, as I would expect, means that Russia will go along with China. They have been working closely in all areas related to US hegemony, with Russia having an even greater stake in Iran remaining independent of US influence.
>>>>
>>>> Look at a map, its geopolitical, if Iran comes under US influence/control, Russia knows they are next, they’ve already been surrounded by Nato.
>>>>
>>>> Even North Korea agreeing to end its pursuit of nuclear weapons, and reuniting with South Korea, according to Pepe Escobar, is due to N.Korea’s meeting with Russia, China has Russia act as the middle man, while China will likely act as the middleman between Russia and Iran. That is the way business is conducted in Asia. North Korea, has always been about China.
>>>>
>>>> Putin or Lavrov, visiting Israel, or Xi Jinping visiting anyone, is not a sign of disloyalty or betrayal of a friend, it’s the way business and diplomacy is conducted.
>>>>
>>>> The nuclear deal with Iran, was never the end of US plans to control Iran, one way or another, and this was known before Trump was elected.
>>>>
>>>> Just my thoughts, I could be wrong, but I hope I’m right for all concerned.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Peace mailing list
>>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:Peace at lists.chambana.net>
>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Peace mailing list
>> Peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:Peace at lists.chambana.net>
>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>

_______________________________________________
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From naiman at justforeignpolicy.org  Sun Jul  1 18:11:12 2018
From: naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (Robert Naiman)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 13:11:12 -0500
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss]  Medea's talk today. Food for thought
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Message-ID: <CALMNhNQ8MxCP27Cf=7cU5b5uQSjF_zLJa_TL3Brb=7fizMPzJw@mail.gmail.com>

I agree that the overall interests of both Russia and China would seem to
suggest that they will not go too far now in helping Trump against Iran.
Russia and China went along with U.S. sanctions against Iran under Obama
when the context was a stated U.S. policy of trying to achieve a deal on
Iran's nuclear program along the lines of the international consensus: Iran
agrees on restrictions and increased inspections in exchange for lifting of
multilateral sanctions. That deal was achieved. Now, on behalf of the U.S.,
Trump has unilaterally reneged on that deal. It's hard to see what the
interest of Russia and/or China would be now in helping Trump renege on the
deal.

But that just describes this particular juncture, one in which relations
between the U.S. and both Russia and China are very strained because of the
actions of the U.S. on multiple fronts. So far, despite his rhetoric of
wanting to improve U.S. relations with Russia, Trump has actually escalated
in Ukraine compared to Obama. Trump started arming the Ukraine government,
which Obama refused to do. Trump has started a trade war with China. [I'm
not complaining about Trump's trade war with China, I actually kind of like
it, just stating an objective fact.] If the U.S. were willing to drop these
anti-Russia and anti-China policies, what would Russia and China be willing
to do in exchange? That's hard to predict. Of course, the Trump
Administration is constrained by multiple factors in the degree to which it
can drop its anti-Russia and anti-China policies [including, yes, by
Congressional Democrats who support these anti-Russia and anti-China
policies.] Whether Trump is capable of offering Russia and/or China
sufficient inducements to collaborate against Iran is a function both of
what price they think would be fair and whether Trump is willing and
capable of paying such a price.

But there's nothing *intrinsic *about Russia or China or any other country
that would stop them from collaborating with Trump against Iran, if they
were rewarded to a degree they considered sufficient for doing so.

And the whole point of this is: as U.S. citizens, we can't rely on any
other country to constrain our government. We have to take responsibility
for our government. We have to take responsibility for constraining it,
acting on the assumption that no foreign government can be trusted to
constrain it.












Robert Naiman
Policy Director
Just Foreign Policy
www.justforeignpolicy.org
naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
(202) 448-2898 x1




On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 12:46 PM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss <
peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

> Robert,
>
> Yes precisely, Russia like all other nations has its interests, and that
> interest is its own survival, if Iran goes under US control, Russia’s
> survival is in jeopardy.
>
> In respect to Russia, Medea said, “no, we can’t trust Russia” This was in
> respect to support for Iran, when Prof. Boyle announced China’s decision
> “not to support US sanctions on Iran.”
>
> As you point out:
>
> "*All she was saying was: you can't assume that Russia will resist Trump
> on U.S. sanctions and pressure against Iran. That’s all."*
>
>
> I understand your point, but as I keep pointing out, support for Iran is
> paramount to Russia’s survival. This alone is the reason I believe Russia
> and China will jointly support Iran, carefully and slowly in respect to
> “sanctions” rather than with open confrontation.
>
> When the Iranian government appears to be falling, due to those sanctions,
> with the potential for a US puppet being put in place, they will step in.
>
>  I think we can all agree one of the most dangerous situations has been
> Russia s protection of Syria from the US insurgency, another necessity, due
> to Russia’s interests and US intervention and meddling.
>
> As to the US being the most powerful nation in the world, yes our military
> power, the US empire is dying, and everyone knows that, at least in other
> parts of the world. There is nothing more dangerous than a cornered beast,
> or a retreating army.
>
>
> On Jul 1, 2018, at 09:58, Robert Naiman <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
> wrote:
>
> You guys are all totally missing the boat on what Medea said and what she
> meant.
>
> All she was saying was: you can't assume that Russia will resist Trump on
> U.S. sanctions and pressure against Iran. That's all.
>
> Russia is a country that has interests. China is a country that has
> interests. Every country has interests, as they perceive them.
>
> There is no government in the world, no matter how progressive or militant
> or opposed to the U.S., that will not take its own interests as they
> perceive them into account in confronting the U.S. That includes Cuba under
> Fidel Castro, Venezuela under Hugo Chavez, Ecuador under Rafael Correa,
> Bolivia under Evo Morales. None of them will fight the U.S. every time.
> They will choose their battles, taking their own interests into account as
> they perceive them. That's all Medea was saying. Russia went along with
> U.S. sanctions against Iran in the past. China went along with U.S.
> sanctions against Iran in the past. You can't assume that these people are
> going to resist the U.S. at a particular juncture, even if they say they
> will, if they perceive it to be in their interests not to.
>
> John Bolton would trade confrontation with Russia for Russian cooperation
> against Iran in a heartbeat. What price would Putin demand in exchange for
> what? Who can say that they know that for sure?
>
> Russia was allied with the Kurds in northern Syria, until Russia sold out
> the Kurds to the Turks, because they thought it suited their interests to
> do so. The U.S. was allied with the Kurds in northern Syria, until the U.S.
> sold out the Kurds to the Turks, because they thought it suited their
> interests to do so. What's the difference?
>
> The U.S. has tremendous power in the international system, particularly
> when it focuses on one goal - like messing with Iran - at the expense of
> others - like messing with North Korea. That's what makes the current
> situation so dangerous with respect to Iran and the Middle East,
> particularly, right now, Yemen, because that's where the U.S. is
> "confronting Iran" right now, even though [because?] the Iranian role in
> Yemen is small.
>
>
>
>
>
> Robert Naiman
> Policy Director
> Just Foreign Policy
> www.justforeignpolicy.org
> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
> (202) 448-2898 x1
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
>> Yes, everything in relation to US FP, the nations we are destroying in
>> the Magreb, Asia, and soon the Sahel, is about control of Russia, and
>> China. And, they know it very well.
>>
>> In fact, our military knows war with Iran would be a disaster which is
>> why they are focusing on internal regime change by way of sanctions,
>> interventions, and propaganda.
>>
>> In the meantime with Africom in all but one nation of Africa, we can see
>> much of the same across the Sahel that we’ve seen across the Magreb. That
>> is not to say “war” with Iran is not a potential threat. Anything can
>> happen, and bombing them to create chaos, and ensure they don’t go nuclear
>> is likely a goal. A guess on my part.
>>
>>
>> > On Jul 1, 2018, at 06:24, Carl G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > No, I don’t think you’re being hesitant. By ‘hesitation’ I meant your
>> "slight disagreement … in respect to Russia.” Your disagreement is quite
>> appropriate.
>> >
>> > Since WWII, Russia and China been at the heart of US foreign policy
>> (and perhaps earlier, a la Mackinder). The paramount concern of the US has
>> been that no ‘peer competitor’ (in Brzezinski’s phrase) arise in Eurasia.
>> >
>> > In the 70 years since the end of WWII, the US has killed more than 20
>> million people in wars designed to maintain the global economic hegemony
>> that the US obtained as the only undamaged major country in World War II.
>> George Kennan pointed out in a "top secret” State Department memo in1948,
>> >
>> > “...we have about 50% of the world's wealth but only 6.3% of its
>> population. This disparity is particularly great as between ourselves and
>> the peoples of Asia. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of
>> envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a
>> pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of
>> disparity without positive detriment to our national security. To do so, we
>> will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our
>> attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national
>> objectives. We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the
>> luxury of altruism and world-benefaction."
>> >
>> > Fifty years ago, after the 1967 war that destroyed secular Arab
>> nationalism, the US adopted Israel as our 'stationary aircraft carrier' in
>> the Mideast, in order to use control of energy flows out of the Persian
>> Gulf as a weapon against our economic rivals from Germany to China.
>> >
>> > Forty years ago, the US gathered Muslim radicals, armed them, and sent
>> them into Afghanistan (before the Russian invasion) in order to destroy
>> Russian influence in 'Pipelinistan.' (See <https://www.counterpunch.org/
>> 1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/>.)
>> >
>> > These events were bracketed by the US coup against the government of
>> Iran in 1953 and the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 - international crimes the
>> US leaders of which would have been hanged, were the Nuremberg rules
>> applied.
>> >
>> > So today the US is making war in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Pakistan,
>> Somalia, Syria, &  Yemen - principally to control the flow of oil out of
>> the Mideast and North Africa. We remain, as ML King said long ago, "the
>> greatest purveyor of violence in the world today" - for the profits of the
>> US 1%.
>> >
>> > That’s worth disagreeing about. —CGE
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Jul 1, 2018, at 7:47 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <
>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Carl
>> >>
>> >> I don’t believe I’m being hesitant at all, rather bold, to be in
>> disagreement with Medea, but I have disagreed with great people before.
>> >>
>> >> I do not see this as a Democrat vs. Republican issue. I believe its
>> the US assumption that something is either “right or wrong,” and we see
>> “playing both sides” as duplicitous. As I’ve explained to Europeans, when
>> they question why Americans never take into consideration the “will of the
>> people” its because we don’t have a parliamentary system, within which
>> opposing groups are forced to work together. With Americans its always a
>> “winner take all,” scenario.]
>> >>
>> >> When small vulnerable nations, non nuclear, play both sides, for ex:
>> Duerte, of the Philippines says awful things about America, we see him
>> moving closer to China, along with the ICC decision related to the disputed
>> island in the South China Sea, giving the island to the Philippines was
>> ignored by him. Yes, he closed down some US military bases in the south,
>> but has he yet closed them down in the north, the most important ones,
>> targetting China, I don’t think so. We see his FP as duplicitous. Its seen
>> by Asians as survival, working with others in partnership is seen as
>> survival, as opposed to the US marketing strategy of “killing the
>> competition.” Our FP is similar to our marketing strategies.
>> >>
>> >> Putin, and Lavrov are very smart people, and though I’m no expert on
>> Russian culture, nor do I know who is behind the scenes, I don’t think they
>> are going to allow Iran be taken over by the US, its in their best
>> interests and a matter of survival. China has taken the lead, and I fully
>> expect Russia to follow.
>> >>
>> >> Just as many believe China will save Venezuela, if they don’t there is
>> no hope for that impoverished, oil rich nation.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> On Jul 1, 2018, at 00:16, Carl G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Karen—
>> >>>
>> >>> I think your hesitation is appropriate and should lead us to a
>> discussion of US relations with Russia and China, against the massive
>> propaganda of the corporate media.
>> >>>
>> >>> Many American liberals display a ‘partisan taint’ in their acceptance
>> of the Democrat party’s account of foreign relations, including
>> ‘Russiagate.’
>> >>>
>> >>> As Bruce Dixon points out, "Bernie Sanders calls himself a socialist
>> too, just with an imperialist foreign policy."
>> >>>
>> >>> That’s not only wrong but dangerous, in that it undermines the
>> dismantling of the last administration's war provocations against Russia
>> and China, from Ukraine to the S. China Sea.
>> >>>
>> >>> Perhaps that’s easier to see away from the US media miasma: the
>> Australian journalist and filmmaker John Pilger wrote before the
>> presidential election, "The CIA has demanded Trump not be elected. Pentagon
>> generals have demanded he not be elected. The pro-war New York Times -
>> taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that
>> he not be elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are
>> terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United
>> States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with
>> Russian president Putin, then with China’s president Xi Jinping. Their
>> panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however
>> unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire…”
>> >>>
>> >>> Sen. Durbin’s letter to VP Pence (posted on the AWARE fb page) shows
>> how deep and dangerous the taint is. The anti-war movement needs to resist
>> these Democrats - and their sympathizers.
>> >>>
>> >>> —CGE
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:13 PM, Karen Aram via Peace <
>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> To all those present today at Medea Benjamin’s talk. I think we’d
>> all agree, it was excellent, and she covered everything so well, without a
>> single note.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Special thanks go to Deb Schrishulm for making it happen. Prof.
>> Francis Boyle for introduction,Robert Naiman for his coverage. I will send
>> the link once the film is uploaded to UTube.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> While I am very impressed with Medea’s coverage, her experience of
>> putting herself on the line so many times. I’m reading her book now, I do
>> have one comment that I wasn’t able to make earlier at the event.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I have a slight disagreement with Medea, and others in respect to
>> “Russia." The assumption that “Russia cannot be trusted” was the statement,
>> in respect to Russia supporting Iran and opposing US sanctions.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The fact that China has refused to support US sanctions against
>> Iran, as I would expect, means that Russia will go along with China. They
>> have been working closely in all areas related to US hegemony, with Russia
>> having an even greater stake in Iran remaining independent of US influence.
>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Look at a map, its geopolitical, if Iran comes under US
>> influence/control, Russia knows they are next, they’ve already been
>> surrounded by Nato.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Even North Korea agreeing to end its pursuit of nuclear weapons, and
>> reuniting with South Korea, according to Pepe Escobar, is due to N.Korea’s
>> meeting with Russia, China has Russia act as the middle man, while China
>> will likely act as the middleman between Russia and Iran. That is the way
>> business is conducted in Asia. North Korea, has always been about China.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Putin or Lavrov, visiting Israel, or Xi Jinping visiting anyone, is
>> not a sign of disloyalty or betrayal of a friend, it’s the way business and
>> diplomacy is conducted.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The nuclear deal with Iran, was never the end of US plans to control
>> Iran, one way or another, and this was known before Trump was elected.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Just my thoughts, I could be wrong, but I hope I’m right for all
>> concerned.
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Peace mailing list
>> >>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>> >>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Peace mailing list
>> >> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>> >> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>
>
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Tue Jul  3 00:29:21 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 00:29:21 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Digital Organizing for Progressive Campaigns and Issues
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB23823357FC5B762880E69FBBA3420@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

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Have you been trying to figure how best to use digital organizing strategies and tactics to accentuate the organizing work you do for candidates and around issues? Then this two-day training is for you!

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Start: July 07, 2018•10:00 AM                                                                           End: July 08, 2018• 6:00
PMLocation: IBEW Local 601•3301 Boardwalk Drive, Champaign, IL 61822
Host Contact Info: beth at beckerdigitalstrategies.com<mailto:beth at beckerdigitalstrategies.com>                      Local Contact: deb at pdamerica.org<mailto:deb at pdamerica.org>
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Tue Jul  3 00:44:02 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 00:44:02 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Fwd: giveaways
References: <BYAPR19MB2295C25148A4697FDC8C3551A1420@BYAPR19MB2295.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB23820135CAF69A2F686D5C75A3420@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>




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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Tue Jul  3 14:48:42 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 14:48:42 +0000
Subject: [Peace] US Attempts Violent Regime Change in Iran
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB238281712331DE2161067516A3420@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

« "Officials" Attempt To Sabotage Further North Korea Talks<http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/06/officials-attempt-to-sabotage-trumps-north-korea-talks.html> | Main<http://www.moonofalabama.org/> | The MoA Week In Review - Open Thread 2018-33 »<http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/07/the-moa-week-in-review-open-thread-2018-33.html>
July 01, 2018
On The Path To Failure - U.S. Attempts Violent "Regime Change" In Iran

In early 2014 we remarked on Color Revolution by Force<http://www.moonofalabama.org/2014/01/libya-syria-and-now-ukraine-color-revolution-by-force.html> in Syria and Ukraine:

Accompanying the demonstrations and illegal occupations of government buildings are in both cases brutal, criminal attacks on the police and other government forces. In Syria the violence "muscle" part was done by foreign financed Jihadists while neo-nazi gangs are used in the Ukraine. The demonstrations and the attacks on the state are planned and go together. There is nothing "peaceful" in demonstrations that are only the public-relations cover for attacks on the state. But the foreign politicians and media immediately utter "concerns" and threats over completely normal government responses to them. It is a scam to justify "western" "support" for the demonstrators and to further the violence.

The aim is "regime change" of legitimate governments by small minorities. Should the "regime" resist to that the alternative of destroying the state and the whole society is also wholeheartedly accepted.

We have since seen similar CIA operations in Venezuela<https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/venezuela/article145430429.html> and most recently in Nicaragua<https://grayzoneproject.com/2018/06/19/ned-nicaragua-protests-us-government/>. The same concept is used to attack Iran. In December peaceful economic protests were hijacked<http://www.moonofalabama.org/2017/12/iran-regime-change-agents-hijack-economic-protests-.html> by violent elements. Last night a similar attempt occurred:

Sayed Mousavi @SayedMousavi7 - 22:17 UTC - 30 Jun 2018<https://twitter.com/SayedMousavi7/status/1013184839196037121>

Khoramshar water shortage protest turned violent tonight.
What we know:
- At least 2 protesters shot, possibly by getting close to military zones
- Mobs set 2 museums on fire (reports)
- 1 hour of calm
- No base takeovers (anti-regime journos have claimed)
- Armed bike is suspicious

The scene with the "armed bike" in the video attached to the above tweet can be seen better in another video<https://twitter.com/SayedMousavi7/status/1013283232752730112>. It shows two "peaceful protesters" on a motorcycle shooting at police with an automatic gun. The shooter is hit and falls off. Another "peaceful protester" picks up the gun and continues shooting.

[http://www.moonofalabama.org/images6/khoramshahr-s.jpg]
via<https://twitter.com/SayedMousavi7/status/1013283232752730112> Sayed Mousavi - bigger<http://www.moonofalabama.org/images6/khoramshahr-s.jpg>

A year ago the CIA created a new mission center to attack Iran<https://www.wsj.com/articles/cia-creates-new-mission-center-to-turn-up-heat-on-iran-1496426232>:

The Iran Mission Center will bring together analysts, operations personnel and specialists from across the CIA to bring to bear the range of the agency’s capabilities,including covert action.
...
To lead the new group, Mr. Pompeo picked a veteran intelligence officer, Michael D’Andrea, who recently oversaw the agency’s program of lethal drone strikes ...
...
Mr. D’Andrea, a former director of the CIA’s Counterterrorism Center, is known among peers as a demanding but effective manager, and a convert to Islam who works long hours. Some U.S. officials have expressed concern over what they perceive as his aggressive stance toward Iran.

The tool the U.S. is using in Iran are operatives of the Mujahedin-e-Khalq (MEK), a terror cult<https://www.mintpressnews.com/nato-terrorist-bases-in-europe/243959/> that has been fighting with Saddam's Iraq against Iran and is despised by the Iranian people. When the U.S. was kicked out of Iraq it transferred the MEK camps from Iraq to Albania where the cult is now training its terrorists<http://balkanspost.com/article/409/mek-regime-change-albania-training-terrorist-iran>.

Yesterday a conference of the National Council of Resistance of Iran (NCRI), a political umbrella controlled by the MEK, was held in Paris. One of the well paid guest speakers was Donald Trump's lawyer Rudi Giuliani. He acknowledged<https://twitter.com/a_merat/status/1013075312417091584> U.S. involvement in the protests in Iran:

“Those protests [in Iran] are not happening spontaneously. They are happening because of many of our people in Albania and many of our people here and throughout the world.”

The MEK is just a front group, trained by Mossad and financed with U.S. and Saudi money. It is not backed by Iranian people. Only half of the attendees of the conference were<https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/30/rudy-giuliani-mek-iran-paris-rally> Iranians at all:

The other half consisted of an assortment of bored-looking Poles, Czechs, Slovakians, Germans and Syrians who responded to a Facebook campaign promising travel, food and accommodation to Paris for a mere €25.

These "color revolution by force" regime change protests are only one of the tools the U.S. is using to destroy Iran.

Trump wants to end all oil exports from Iran to starve the country of foreign currencies. Iran's biggest customers are Europe, India and China. The big Europe oil companies have already folded under Trump's pressure, India followed<https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/india-braces-for-life-without-iran-oil-mulls-plan-b/articleshow/64783643.cms> and China has still to decide if it wants to take a (costly) stand. Trump is pressing Saudi Arabia to increase its oil supplies to replace the Iranian oil that can no longer reach the world market.

Making Iranians poorer is thought to lead to an uprising and regime change. But it is doubtful that such will work. The identity of the Islamic Republic<https://twitter.com/MahmoudAyad1984/status/1012802082963849216> is quite strong. It is more likely that the Iranian people will pull together and accept the hardship while asymmetric Iranian operations slowly destroy the U.S.'s policies. Saudi oil ports are quite vulnerable targets ...

Within the Trump administration Secretary of State Pompeo and National Security Advisor John Bolton are<https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-senior-trump-advisers-believe-it-s-possible-to-hasten-collapse-of-iran-1.6223784> the biggest proponents of regime change in Tehran:

Bolton views the demonstrations that have broken out in Iran in recent months over the state of the country’s economy as an indication of the regime’s weakness. He has told Trump that increased U.S. pressure could lead to the regime’s collapse.

One person who recently spoke with senior White House officials on the subject summarized Bolton view in the words: “One little kick and they’re done.”

Secretary of Defense Mattis is said to be opposed to regime change in Iran. He fears<https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/06/28/mattiss-last-stand-is-iran/>that such an effort might lead to a larger Middle East war. Trump will likely fire him soon. Sheldon Adelson, the Zionist billionaire who financed Trump's campaign, paid Bolton and supports Netanyahoo, will have Trump ears. He demands regime change in Iran no matter what.

Regime change in Iran is not just a Trump administration project. The support for the MEK nutters is bipartisan. Several Democrats, including Nancy Pelosi<https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fa&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fir.voanews.com%2Fa%2Fusa-iran%2F4461455.html%3Fnocache%3D1&edit-text=>, also spoke at the MEK conference in Paris. The neo-conservative lunatics are established in both parties. Here is Obama's ambassador to Russia who tried and failed to implement regime change there:

Michael McFaul @McFaul - 18:21 UTC - 30 Jun 2018<https://twitter.com/McFaul/status/1013125459922452480>
A democratic Iran not only would free Iranians from repressive theocracy but produce closer ties between our two countries; real security, economic, and moral benefits for both Iranians and Americans.

To which the father of the neocons responded:

Bill Kristol @BillKristol - 18:29 UTC - 30 Jun 2018<https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1013127281559113729>
Bill Kristol Retweeted Michael McFaul
Very true. And great to see a bipartisan consensus for regime change in Iran! (It would be happily ironic if, totally inadvertently, tough sanctions followed by the JCPOA followed by withdrawal from the deal caused so much whiplash that the regime crumbled.)

Surely, the U.S. will be welcome in Tehran with candy and flowers (not). Such neo-conservative "moral benefit" nonsense has already led to the disaster of the war on Iraq. Iran is several times larger. It has a quite modern economy, effective proxy forces and very significant allies. Any attempt to defeat it militarily will be a hopeless endeavor.

The U.S. has only weak allies in the Middle East. Should a conflict with Iran become hot it would have its hands full with trying to save them from falling apart.

For now we can expect more protests in Iran that will be hijacked in an attempt to create a "revolution". There will be U.S. directed proxy attacks by Kurdish and Baluchi forces on iran's borders. The economic pressure within Iran will increase further.

But all these efforts are likely to fail. Since its Islamic revolution in 1979 every U.S. attempt to damage Iran or its allies has led to the opposite effect. Every time Iran emerged stronger than before. It is likely that the current attempt will have a similar result.
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From kmedina67 at gmail.com  Tue Jul  3 19:23:28 2018
From: kmedina67 at gmail.com (Karen Medina)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 14:23:28 -0500
Subject: [Peace] no AWARE entry in the parade,
 but if immigration is your issue, ACLU is #80
Message-ID: <CA+0uwiZp53RibAdwL0_o_C7J7OZc1Cmb-+cp8N53v88gQhFfvg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Peace,

For the 4th of July parade, AWARE does not have an entry this year.
But there are groups that might line up with your particular political issue.
* 7. Moms Demand Action -- guns
* 16. Don Moyer Boys and Girls Club
* 71. Champaign County Head Start
* 80 ACLU, #80 -- if immigration is an important issue for you, 3
spinners will be walking with the ACLU
* 83. Champaign County Bikes

I did not see any labor union entries. I will be interested to see
#42, the astronomy club's entry.

The parade steps off at 11am with all participants congregating behind
Assembly Hall.
Assembly Hall/State Farm Center
1800 S 1st St.
Champaign, IL 61820

The route: The parade begins near First & Kirby. Continues East on
Florida to Lincoln Ave. then proceeds North on Lincoln Ave to
California. Parade units turn onto Illinois street to disperse and
exit area at Goodwin Ave.

Potty houses and vendors are located throughout the parade route. See
the map for exact locations.

Maps:
* parade map: https://www.july4th.net/sites/default/files/admin-uploaded-forms/ParadeMap2018.jpg
* staging map: https://www.july4th.net/sites/default/files/maps/IMG_9150.jpg

From davidgreen50 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  4 02:08:21 2018
From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 21:08:21 -0500
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] "...thinking makes it so"
In-Reply-To: <2F052550-1207-4A39-B100-F7A7FC421FAA@gmail.com>
References: <2F052550-1207-4A39-B100-F7A7FC421FAA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOiGAyFXskE0dw3pB_NsKsvb0XcURoHX4y9nm1Cm72M3xxRk0A@mail.gmail.com>

How is the line from Hamlet misunderstood?

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 6:57 PM C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

> One of the most misunderstood lines in Shakespeare is Hamlet’s “...there
> is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
>
> Here a FOA (Friend of AWARE) brilliantly applies it to current US politics
> (h/t K. Aram):
>
> "Today I had two discussions, one with people advocating hate crime laws,
> and another with people defending Antifa, and it occurred to me that they
> were pretty much the same people.
>
> "Hate crime laws are actually thought crime laws, in that they take what
> is already a crime, and add years to the sentence if the perp was thinking
> bad thoughts when they committed the crime.
>
> "Antifas are people who commit crimes, and expect to go unpunished at all,
> because they were thinking good thoughts when they committed the crime.
>
> "This is magical thinking, the idea that thoughts are more important than
> reality. This is very American, since we have had multiple Think Yourself
> Rich fads, from Napoleon Hill to Oprah. And we are earnestly told that
> having a president who 'believes' in climate change is more important than
> actual policy changes. And, of course, the latest fad in which you can
> think yourself right into the opposite sex. (And not in the old 'think
> yourself irresistible' way.)
>
> "I think I'll just be over here, in the corner, visualizing peace.”
> --Paula Densnow
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace-discuss mailing list
> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>
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From davidgreen50 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  4 04:06:31 2018
From: davidgreen50 at gmail.com (David Green)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 23:06:31 -0500
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] "...thinking makes it so"
In-Reply-To: <580EB405-5872-4A3D-A050-46273DDDF9EE@gmail.com>
References: <2F052550-1207-4A39-B100-F7A7FC421FAA@gmail.com>
 <CAOiGAyFXskE0dw3pB_NsKsvb0XcURoHX4y9nm1Cm72M3xxRk0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <580EB405-5872-4A3D-A050-46273DDDF9EE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOiGAyGrFN1OwN2HMHnDMfsgRQu1YSuKHL5dWmnc8-oFoANTZg@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not sure of the precise origin of the notion of "hate crimes" in the
law in our own country, if there is such an origin; but my sense--perhaps
more directly applicable to European and Canadian laws that directly
monitor speech--has long been that what Norman Finkelstein has called the
"Holocaust Industry" contributed to the development of such a notion, by
equating the actuality of the Holocaust, anti-semitic beliefs, and
criticism of Israel's very real crimes.

DG

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 9:47 PM C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com> wrote:

> It might mean
> (a) opinion constitutes moral worth - "it’s good/evil if you think it is”;
> or
> (b) opinion misinterprets moral worth - "it’s good, but you mistakenly
> think it evil.”
>
> HAMLET, 2.2=================================================
> • Hamlet. ... What news ?
> • Rosencrantz. None, my lord, but that the world's grown honest.
> • Hamlet. Then is doomsday near! But your news is not true. Let me
> question more in particular. What have you, my good friends,
> deserved at the hands of Fortune that she sends you to prison
> hither?
> • Guildenstern. Prison, my lord?
> • Hamlet. Denmark's a prison.
> • Rosencrantz. Then is the world one.
> • Hamlet. A goodly one; in which there are many confines, wards, and
> dungeons, Denmark being one o' th' worst.
> • Rosencrantz. We think not so, my lord.
> • Hamlet. Why, then 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good
> or bad but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison.
> • Rosencrantz. Why, then your ambition makes it one. 'Tis too narrow for
> your
> mind.
> • Hamlet. O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a
> king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams.
> • Guildenstern. Which dreams indeed are ambition; for the very substance
> of
> the ambitious is merely the shadow of a dream.
> • Hamlet. A dream itself is but a shadow.
> • Rosencrantz. Truly, and I hold ambition of so airy and light a quality
> that
> it is but a shadow's shadow.
> • Hamlet. Then are our beggars bodies, and our monarchs and outstretch'd
> heroes the beggars' shadows. Shall we to th' court? for, by my
> fay, I cannot reason.
> =========================================================
>
>
> On Jul 3, 2018, at 9:08 PM, David Green via Peace <
> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
> How is the line from Hamlet misunderstood?
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 6:57 PM C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
>> One of the most misunderstood lines in Shakespeare is Hamlet’s “...there
>> is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
>>
>> Here a FOA (Friend of AWARE) brilliantly applies it to current US
>> politics (h/t K. Aram):
>>
>> "Today I had two discussions, one with people advocating hate crime laws,
>> and another with people defending Antifa, and it occurred to me that they
>> were pretty much the same people.
>>
>> "Hate crime laws are actually thought crime laws, in that they take what
>> is already a crime, and add years to the sentence if the perp was thinking
>> bad thoughts when they committed the crime.
>>
>> "Antifas are people who commit crimes, and expect to go unpunished at
>> all, because they were thinking good thoughts when they committed the crime.
>>
>> "This is magical thinking, the idea that thoughts are more important than
>> reality. This is very American, since we have had multiple Think Yourself
>> Rich fads, from Napoleon Hill to Oprah. And we are earnestly told that
>> having a president who 'believes' in climate change is more important than
>> actual policy changes. And, of course, the latest fad in which you can
>> think yourself right into the opposite sex. (And not in the old 'think
>> yourself irresistible' way.)
>>
>> "I think I'll just be over here, in the corner, visualizing peace.”
>> --Paula Densnow
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace mailing list
> Peace at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>
>
>
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Wed Jul  4 12:00:53 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 12:00:53 +0000
Subject: [Peace] 4th of July celebration
Message-ID: <CY4PR08MB23745A94257153ADF01532BBA3410@CY4PR08MB2374.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

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‘What to the American Slave is Your 4th of July’
By Frederick Douglass
Jul 03, 2018
28714

[Frederick_Douglass_portrait]<http://www.liberationnews.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Frederick_Douglass_portrait.jpg>

Excerpt of speech by Frederick Douglass, July 5, 1852, Rochester, New York

What, to the American slave, is your 4th of July? I answer: a day that reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciations of tyrants, brass fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade, and solemnity, are, to him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy — a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices, more shocking and bloody, than are the people of these United States, at this very hour.

Go where you may, search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and despotisms of the old world, travel through South America, search out every abuse, and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with me, that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival.

Take the American slave-trade, which, we are told by the papers, is especially prosperous just now. Ex-Senator Benton tells us that the price of men was never higher than now. He mentions the fact to show that slavery is in no danger. This trade is one of the peculiarities of American institutions. It is carried on in all the large towns and cities in one-half of this confederacy; and millions are pocketed every year, by dealers in this horrid traffic. In several states, this trade is a chief source of wealth. It is called (in contradistinction to the foreign slave-trade) “the internal slave trade.” It is, probably, called so, too, in order to divert from it the horror with which the foreign slave-trade is contemplated. That trade has long since been denounced by this government, as piracy. It has been denounced with burning words, from the high places of the nation, as an execrable traffic. To arrest it, to put an end to it, this nation keeps a squadron, at immense cost, on the coast of Africa. Everywhere, in this country, it is safe to speak of this foreign slave-trade, as a most inhuman traffic, opposed alike to the laws of God and of man. The duty to extirpate and destroy it, is admitted even by our DOCTORS OF DIVINITY. In order to put an end to it, some of these last have consented that their colored brethren (nominally free) should leave this country, and establish themselves on the western coast of Africa! It is, however, a notable fact that, while so much execration is poured out by Americans upon those engaged in the foreign slave-trade, the men engaged in the slave-trade between the states pass without condemnation, and their business is deemed honorable.

Behold the practical operation of this internal slave-trade, the American slave-trade, sustained by American politics and America religion. Here you will see men and women reared like swine for the market. You know what is a swine-drover? I will show you a man-drover. They inhabit all our Southern States. They perambulate the country, and crowd the highways of the nation, with droves of human stock. You will see one of these human flesh-jobbers, armed with pistol, whip and bowie-knife, driving a company of a hundred men, women, and children, from the Potomac to the slave market at New Orleans. These wretched people are to be sold singly, or in lots, to suit purchasers. They are food for the cotton-field, and the deadly sugar-mill. Mark the sad procession, as it moves wearily along, and the inhuman wretch who drives them. Hear his savage yells and his blood-chilling oaths, as he hurries on his affrighted captives! There, see the old man, with locks thinned and gray. Cast one glance, if you please, upon that young mother, whose shoulders are bare to the scorching sun, her briny tears falling on the brow of the babe in her arms. See, too, that girl of thirteen, weeping, yes! weeping, as she thinks of the mother from whom she has been torn! The drove moves tardily. Heat and sorrow have nearly consumed their strength; suddenly you hear a quick snap, like the discharge of a rifle; the fetters clank, and the chain rattles simultaneously; your ears are saluted with a scream, that seems to have torn its way to the center of your soul! The crack you heard, was the sound of the slave-whip; the scream you heard, was from the woman you saw with the babe. Her speed had faltered under the weight of her child and her chains! that gash on her shoulder tells her to move on. Follow the drove to New Orleans. Attend the auction; see men examined like horses; see the forms of women rudely and brutally exposed to the shocking gaze of American slave-buyers. See this drove sold and separated forever; and never forget the deep, sad sobs that arose from that scattered multitude. Tell me citizens, WHERE, under the sun, you can witness a spectacle more fiendish and shocking. Yet this is but a glance at the American slave-trade, as it exists, at this moment, in the ruling part of the United States.

I was born amid such sights and scenes. To me the American slave-trade is a terrible reality. When a child, my soul was often pierced with a sense of its horrors. I lived on Philpot Street, Fell’s Point, Baltimore, and have watched from the wharves, the slave ships in the Basin, anchored from the shore, with their cargoes of human flesh, waiting for favorable winds to waft them down the Chesapeake. There was, at that time, a grand slave mart kept at the head of Pratt Street, by Austin Woldfolk. His agents were sent into every town and county in Maryland, announcing their arrival, through the papers, and on flaming “hand-bills,” headed CASH FOR NEGROES. These men were generally well dressed men, and very captivating in their manners. Ever ready to drink, to treat, and to gamble. The fate of many a slave has depended upon the turn of a single card; and many a child has been snatched from the arms of its mother by bargains arranged in a state of brutal drunkenness.

The flesh-mongers gather up their victims by dozens, and drive them, chained, to the general depot at Baltimore. When a sufficient number have been collected here, a ship is chartered, for the purpose of conveying the forlorn crew to Mobile, or to New Orleans. From the slave prison to the ship, they are usually driven in the darkness of night; for since the antislavery agitation, a certain caution is observed.

In the deep still darkness of midnight, I have been often aroused by the dead heavy footsteps, and the piteous cries of the chained gangs that passed our door. The anguish of my boyish heart was intense; and I was often consoled, when speaking to my mistress in the morning, to hear her say that the custom was very wicked; that she hated to hear the rattle of the chains, and the heart-rending cries. I was glad to find one who sympathized with me in my horror.

Fellow-citizens, this murderous traffic is, to-day, in active operation in this boasted republic. In the solitude of my spirit, I see clouds of dust raised on the highways of the South; I see the bleeding footsteps; I hear the doleful wail of fettered humanity, on the way to the slave-markets, where the victims are to be sold like horses, sheep, and swine, knocked off to the highest bidder. There I see the tenderest ties ruthlessly broken, to gratify the lust, caprice and rapacity of the buyers and sellers of men. My soul sickens at the sight . . .

But a still more inhuman, disgraceful, and scandalous state of things remains to be presented. By an act of the American Congress, not yet two years old, slavery has been nationalized in its most horrible and revolting form. By that act, Mason and Dixon’s line has been obliterated; New York has become as Virginia; and the power to hold, hunt, and sell men, women, and children as slaves remains no longer a mere state institution, but is now an institution of the whole United States. The power is co-extensive with the Star-Spangled Banner and American Christianity.

Link to full text: http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/what-to-the-slave-is-the-fourth-of-july/

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From mickalideh at gmail.com  Wed Jul  4 13:53:07 2018
From: mickalideh at gmail.com (Harry Mickalide)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 08:53:07 -0500
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] "...thinking makes it so"
In-Reply-To: <CAOiGAyGrFN1OwN2HMHnDMfsgRQu1YSuKHL5dWmnc8-oFoANTZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2F052550-1207-4A39-B100-F7A7FC421FAA@gmail.com>
 <CAOiGAyFXskE0dw3pB_NsKsvb0XcURoHX4y9nm1Cm72M3xxRk0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <580EB405-5872-4A3D-A050-46273DDDF9EE@gmail.com>
 <CAOiGAyGrFN1OwN2HMHnDMfsgRQu1YSuKHL5dWmnc8-oFoANTZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNeTNEqfqBzgs4nG_3FXwp3reMXkgYi-UgDc_+c3VBiib_Law@mail.gmail.com>

It's not that Antifa doesn't expect punishment. It's that they *risk
*punishment
in order to defend us and fight fascism.

In fact, if we're going to compare the difference between thought and
action, we here on the Internet are *thinking* about creating a just world,
while people in Antifa are in the streets actually *doing *it.

Here is an article where multiple people thank Antifa for defending them
from Nazis.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html


On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 11:06 PM, David Green via Peace <
peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

> I'm not sure of the precise origin of the notion of "hate crimes" in the
> law in our own country, if there is such an origin; but my sense--perhaps
> more directly applicable to European and Canadian laws that directly
> monitor speech--has long been that what Norman Finkelstein has called the
> "Holocaust Industry" contributed to the development of such a notion, by
> equating the actuality of the Holocaust, anti-semitic beliefs, and
> criticism of Israel's very real crimes.
>
> DG
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 9:47 PM C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> It might mean
>> (a) opinion constitutes moral worth - "it’s good/evil if you think it
>> is”; or
>> (b) opinion misinterprets moral worth - "it’s good, but you mistakenly
>> think it evil.”
>>
>> HAMLET, 2.2=================================================
>> • Hamlet. ... What news ?
>> • Rosencrantz. None, my lord, but that the world's grown honest.
>> • Hamlet. Then is doomsday near! But your news is not true. Let me
>> question more in particular. What have you, my good friends,
>> deserved at the hands of Fortune that she sends you to prison
>> hither?
>> • Guildenstern. Prison, my lord?
>> • Hamlet. Denmark's a prison.
>> • Rosencrantz. Then is the world one.
>> • Hamlet. A goodly one; in which there are many confines, wards, and
>> dungeons, Denmark being one o' th' worst.
>> • Rosencrantz. We think not so, my lord.
>> • Hamlet. Why, then 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good
>> or bad but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison.
>> • Rosencrantz. Why, then your ambition makes it one. 'Tis too narrow for
>> your
>> mind.
>> • Hamlet. O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a
>> king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams.
>> • Guildenstern. Which dreams indeed are ambition; for the very substance
>> of
>> the ambitious is merely the shadow of a dream.
>> • Hamlet. A dream itself is but a shadow.
>> • Rosencrantz. Truly, and I hold ambition of so airy and light a quality
>> that
>> it is but a shadow's shadow.
>> • Hamlet. Then are our beggars bodies, and our monarchs and outstretch'd
>> heroes the beggars' shadows. Shall we to th' court? for, by my
>> fay, I cannot reason.
>> =========================================================
>>
>>
>> On Jul 3, 2018, at 9:08 PM, David Green via Peace <
>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>
>> How is the line from Hamlet misunderstood?
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 6:57 PM C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>
>>> One of the most misunderstood lines in Shakespeare is Hamlet’s “...there
>>> is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
>>>
>>> Here a FOA (Friend of AWARE) brilliantly applies it to current US
>>> politics (h/t K. Aram):
>>>
>>> "Today I had two discussions, one with people advocating hate crime
>>> laws, and another with people defending Antifa, and it occurred to me that
>>> they were pretty much the same people.
>>>
>>> "Hate crime laws are actually thought crime laws, in that they take what
>>> is already a crime, and add years to the sentence if the perp was thinking
>>> bad thoughts when they committed the crime.
>>>
>>> "Antifas are people who commit crimes, and expect to go unpunished at
>>> all, because they were thinking good thoughts when they committed the crime.
>>>
>>> "This is magical thinking, the idea that thoughts are more important
>>> than reality. This is very American, since we have had multiple Think
>>> Yourself Rich fads, from Napoleon Hill to Oprah. And we are earnestly told
>>> that having a president who 'believes' in climate change is more important
>>> than actual policy changes. And, of course, the latest fad in which you can
>>> think yourself right into the opposite sex. (And not in the old 'think
>>> yourself irresistible' way.)
>>>
>>> "I think I'll just be over here, in the corner, visualizing peace.”
>>> --Paula Densnow
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Peace mailing list
>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace mailing list
> Peace at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>
>
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From mickalideh at gmail.com  Wed Jul  4 14:04:47 2018
From: mickalideh at gmail.com (Harry Mickalide)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 09:04:47 -0500
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] "...thinking makes it so"
In-Reply-To: <DB676A4C-42FE-4785-95C3-96838D27C7B4@gmail.com>
References: <2F052550-1207-4A39-B100-F7A7FC421FAA@gmail.com>
 <CAOiGAyFXskE0dw3pB_NsKsvb0XcURoHX4y9nm1Cm72M3xxRk0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <580EB405-5872-4A3D-A050-46273DDDF9EE@gmail.com>
 <CAOiGAyGrFN1OwN2HMHnDMfsgRQu1YSuKHL5dWmnc8-oFoANTZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNeTNEqfqBzgs4nG_3FXwp3reMXkgYi-UgDc_+c3VBiib_Law@mail.gmail.com>
 <DB676A4C-42FE-4785-95C3-96838D27C7B4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNeTNFppbOQ6QO5hm3AkBab0=95nYUmm_ajj7fWXzZo7oJ_JA@mail.gmail.com>

It's a chilling understatement to call Nazis "people with the wrong ideas".
How bad does it get before we consider tactics besides flyering? Our
government has banned people from Muslim countries and is now keeping
immigrant children in cages.

That's it for me. I'm outta here!

On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 8:59 AM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com> wrote:

> They’re “creating a just world" by beating up people with the wrong ideas?
> That’s an organizing gift to the Right.
>
>
> On Jul 4, 2018, at 8:53 AM, Harry Mickalide <mickalideh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's not that Antifa doesn't expect punishment. It's that they *risk *punishment
> in order to defend us and fight fascism.
>
> In fact, if we're going to compare the difference between thought and
> action, we here on the Internet are *thinking* about creating a just
> world, while people in Antifa are in the streets actually *doing *it.
>
> Here is an article where multiple people thank Antifa for defending them
> from Nazis.
> http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/
> 2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 11:06 PM, David Green via Peace <
> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure of the precise origin of the notion of "hate crimes" in the
>> law in our own country, if there is such an origin; but my sense--perhaps
>> more directly applicable to European and Canadian laws that directly
>> monitor speech--has long been that what Norman Finkelstein has called the
>> "Holocaust Industry" contributed to the development of such a notion, by
>> equating the actuality of the Holocaust, anti-semitic beliefs, and
>> criticism of Israel's very real crimes.
>>
>> DG
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 9:47 PM C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It might mean
>>> (a) opinion constitutes moral worth - "it’s good/evil if you think it
>>> is”; or
>>> (b) opinion misinterprets moral worth - "it’s good, but you mistakenly
>>> think it evil.”
>>>
>>> HAMLET, 2.2=================================================
>>> • Hamlet. ... What news ?
>>> • Rosencrantz. None, my lord, but that the world's grown honest.
>>> • Hamlet. Then is doomsday near! But your news is not true. Let me
>>> question more in particular. What have you, my good friends,
>>> deserved at the hands of Fortune that she sends you to prison
>>> hither?
>>> • Guildenstern. Prison, my lord?
>>> • Hamlet. Denmark's a prison.
>>> • Rosencrantz. Then is the world one.
>>> • Hamlet. A goodly one; in which there are many confines, wards, and
>>> dungeons, Denmark being one o' th' worst.
>>> • Rosencrantz. We think not so, my lord.
>>> • Hamlet. Why, then 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good
>>> or bad but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison.
>>> • Rosencrantz. Why, then your ambition makes it one. 'Tis too narrow for
>>> your
>>> mind.
>>> • Hamlet. O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a
>>> king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams.
>>> • Guildenstern. Which dreams indeed are ambition; for the very substance
>>> of
>>> the ambitious is merely the shadow of a dream.
>>> • Hamlet. A dream itself is but a shadow.
>>> • Rosencrantz. Truly, and I hold ambition of so airy and light a quality
>>> that
>>> it is but a shadow's shadow.
>>> • Hamlet. Then are our beggars bodies, and our monarchs and outstretch'd
>>> heroes the beggars' shadows. Shall we to th' court? for, by my
>>> fay, I cannot reason.
>>> =========================================================
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 3, 2018, at 9:08 PM, David Green via Peace <
>>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> How is the line from Hamlet misunderstood?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 6:57 PM C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> One of the most misunderstood lines in Shakespeare is Hamlet’s
>>>> “...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
>>>>
>>>> Here a FOA (Friend of AWARE) brilliantly applies it to current US
>>>> politics (h/t K. Aram):
>>>>
>>>> "Today I had two discussions, one with people advocating hate crime
>>>> laws, and another with people defending Antifa, and it occurred to me that
>>>> they were pretty much the same people.
>>>>
>>>> "Hate crime laws are actually thought crime laws, in that they take
>>>> what is already a crime, and add years to the sentence if the perp was
>>>> thinking bad thoughts when they committed the crime.
>>>>
>>>> "Antifas are people who commit crimes, and expect to go unpunished at
>>>> all, because they were thinking good thoughts when they committed the crime.
>>>>
>>>> "This is magical thinking, the idea that thoughts are more important
>>>> than reality. This is very American, since we have had multiple Think
>>>> Yourself Rich fads, from Napoleon Hill to Oprah. And we are earnestly told
>>>> that having a president who 'believes' in climate change is more important
>>>> than actual policy changes. And, of course, the latest fad in which you can
>>>> think yourself right into the opposite sex. (And not in the old 'think
>>>> yourself irresistible' way.)
>>>>
>>>> "I think I'll just be over here, in the corner, visualizing peace.”
>>>> --Paula Densnow
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Peace mailing list
>>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Peace mailing list
>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>
>>
>
>
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Wed Jul  4 14:26:23 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:26:23 +0000
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] "...thinking makes it so"
In-Reply-To: <CANNeTNFppbOQ6QO5hm3AkBab0=95nYUmm_ajj7fWXzZo7oJ_JA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2F052550-1207-4A39-B100-F7A7FC421FAA@gmail.com>
 <CAOiGAyFXskE0dw3pB_NsKsvb0XcURoHX4y9nm1Cm72M3xxRk0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <580EB405-5872-4A3D-A050-46273DDDF9EE@gmail.com>
 <CAOiGAyGrFN1OwN2HMHnDMfsgRQu1YSuKHL5dWmnc8-oFoANTZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNeTNEqfqBzgs4nG_3FXwp3reMXkgYi-UgDc_+c3VBiib_Law@mail.gmail.com>
 <DB676A4C-42FE-4785-95C3-96838D27C7B4@gmail.com>
 <CANNeTNFppbOQ6QO5hm3AkBab0=95nYUmm_ajj7fWXzZo7oJ_JA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CY4PR08MB2374AE895800511800C1983BA3410@CY4PR08MB2374.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

Our government has banned people from Muslim nations we have bombed, or planned to bomb, we aren’t banning allies such as the KSA, Indonesia, the largest Muslim nation in the world, or even Malaysia.

When we stop our government from bombing and/or intervening in nations with covert operations intent on regime change, sanctions and economic destruction, such as NAFTA affecting both sides of the borders. When we do something about climate change, and the crime our actions create, then people won’t be forced to leave their countries to come here to be treated so badly, because its only going to get worse.

Look at Puerto Rico today, what the Hurricane completed, started long ago, in order for developers to take over that once beautiful island. Whats going to happen in the future when immigrants from Louisiana and Florida, California and Arizona start moving across state borders north and inland, will they be welcomed with open arms?

Besides huge profits with our system of mass incarceration, why else is our system incarcerating young black men for non violent crimes?

Why the drug wars?

These are all questions that have an answer, when we look at as if a forest, rather than just examining each tree.

No question the Trump Administration is the most awful, but every US administration has contributed to where we are now.

What needs to be changed is our system of capitalism which has impoverished the working classes, while empowering the ruling elites as the empire dies.

On Jul 4, 2018, at 07:04, Harry Mickalide via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:

It's a chilling understatement to call Nazis "people with the wrong ideas". How bad does it get before we consider tactics besides flyering? Our government has banned people from Muslim countries and is now keeping immigrant children in cages.

That's it for me. I'm outta here!

On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 8:59 AM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com<mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com>> wrote:
They’re “creating a just world" by beating up people with the wrong ideas? That’s an organizing gift to the Right.


On Jul 4, 2018, at 8:53 AM, Harry Mickalide <mickalideh at gmail.com<mailto:mickalideh at gmail.com>> wrote:

It's not that Antifa doesn't expect punishment. It's that they risk punishment in order to defend us and fight fascism.

In fact, if we're going to compare the difference between thought and action, we here on the Internet are thinking about creating a just world, while people in Antifa are in the streets actually doing it.

Here is an article where multiple people thank Antifa for defending them from Nazis.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html


On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 11:06 PM, David Green via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
I'm not sure of the precise origin of the notion of "hate crimes" in the law in our own country, if there is such an origin; but my sense--perhaps more directly applicable to European and Canadian laws that directly monitor speech--has long been that what Norman Finkelstein has called the "Holocaust Industry" contributed to the development of such a notion, by equating the actuality of the Holocaust, anti-semitic beliefs, and criticism of Israel's very real crimes.

DG

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 9:47 PM C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com<mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com>> wrote:
It might mean
(a) opinion constitutes moral worth - "it’s good/evil if you think it is”; or
(b) opinion misinterprets moral worth - "it’s good, but you mistakenly think it evil.”

HAMLET, 2.2=================================================
• Hamlet. ... What news ?
• Rosencrantz. None, my lord, but that the world's grown honest.
• Hamlet. Then is doomsday near! But your news is not true. Let me
question more in particular. What have you, my good friends,
deserved at the hands of Fortune that she sends you to prison
hither?
• Guildenstern. Prison, my lord?
• Hamlet. Denmark's a prison.
• Rosencrantz. Then is the world one.
• Hamlet. A goodly one; in which there are many confines, wards, and
dungeons, Denmark being one o' th' worst.
• Rosencrantz. We think not so, my lord.
• Hamlet. Why, then 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good
or bad but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison.
• Rosencrantz. Why, then your ambition makes it one. 'Tis too narrow for your
mind.
• Hamlet. O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a
king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams.
• Guildenstern. Which dreams indeed are ambition; for the very substance of
the ambitious is merely the shadow of a dream.
• Hamlet. A dream itself is but a shadow.
• Rosencrantz. Truly, and I hold ambition of so airy and light a quality that
it is but a shadow's shadow.
• Hamlet. Then are our beggars bodies, and our monarchs and outstretch'd
heroes the beggars' shadows. Shall we to th' court? for, by my
fay, I cannot reason.
=========================================================


On Jul 3, 2018, at 9:08 PM, David Green via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:

How is the line from Hamlet misunderstood?

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 6:57 PM C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
One of the most misunderstood lines in Shakespeare is Hamlet’s “...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”

Here a FOA (Friend of AWARE) brilliantly applies it to current US politics (h/t K. Aram):

"Today I had two discussions, one with people advocating hate crime laws, and another with people defending Antifa, and it occurred to me that they were pretty much the same people.

"Hate crime laws are actually thought crime laws, in that they take what is already a crime, and add years to the sentence if the perp was thinking bad thoughts when they committed the crime.

"Antifas are people who commit crimes, and expect to go unpunished at all, because they were thinking good thoughts when they committed the crime.

"This is magical thinking, the idea that thoughts are more important than reality. This is very American, since we have had multiple Think Yourself Rich fads, from Napoleon Hill to Oprah. And we are earnestly told that having a president who 'believes' in climate change is more important than actual policy changes. And, of course, the latest fad in which you can think yourself right into the opposite sex. (And not in the old 'think yourself irresistible' way.)

"I think I'll just be over here, in the corner, visualizing peace.” --Paula Densnow



_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
_______________________________________________
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Peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:Peace at lists.chambana.net>
https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace


_______________________________________________
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Peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:Peace at lists.chambana.net>
https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace




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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Wed Jul  4 14:53:48 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:53:48 +0000
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] "...thinking makes it so"
In-Reply-To: <CANNeTNEqfqBzgs4nG_3FXwp3reMXkgYi-UgDc_+c3VBiib_Law@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2F052550-1207-4A39-B100-F7A7FC421FAA@gmail.com>
 <CAOiGAyFXskE0dw3pB_NsKsvb0XcURoHX4y9nm1Cm72M3xxRk0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <580EB405-5872-4A3D-A050-46273DDDF9EE@gmail.com>
 <CAOiGAyGrFN1OwN2HMHnDMfsgRQu1YSuKHL5dWmnc8-oFoANTZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNeTNEqfqBzgs4nG_3FXwp3reMXkgYi-UgDc_+c3VBiib_Law@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CY4PR08MB23744144A0E10F113E9882BFA3410@CY4PR08MB2374.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>


Anti-fa does support violence, in that its “planned fight back” its “planned defensive attacks,” as if military or police. It creates chaos, and chaos leads to violence and disintegration of the left, thus with chaos the government, and ruling elite wins.  There are historical examples proving this.

 One does not have to be a pacifist, one does not need to oppose uprisings, but chaos, leads to violence and disintegration of the left.

No movement/revolution using violence has ever succeeded. MLK knew this, perhaps he couldn’t have accomplished what he did without the threat of Malcolm X, but Malcolm would never have been able to accomplish what MLK did.

Only civil resistance succeeds.


On Jul 4, 2018, at 06:53, Harry Mickalide via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:

It's not that Antifa doesn't expect punishment. It's that they risk punishment in order to defend us and fight fascism.

In fact, if we're going to compare the difference between thought and action, we here on the Internet are thinking about creating a just world, while people in Antifa are in the streets actually doing it.

Here is an article where multiple people thank Antifa for defending them from Nazis.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html


On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 11:06 PM, David Green via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
I'm not sure of the precise origin of the notion of "hate crimes" in the law in our own country, if there is such an origin; but my sense--perhaps more directly applicable to European and Canadian laws that directly monitor speech--has long been that what Norman Finkelstein has called the "Holocaust Industry" contributed to the development of such a notion, by equating the actuality of the Holocaust, anti-semitic beliefs, and criticism of Israel's very real crimes.

DG

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 9:47 PM C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com<mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com>> wrote:
It might mean
(a) opinion constitutes moral worth - "it’s good/evil if you think it is”; or
(b) opinion misinterprets moral worth - "it’s good, but you mistakenly think it evil.”

HAMLET, 2.2=================================================
• Hamlet. ... What news ?
• Rosencrantz. None, my lord, but that the world's grown honest.
• Hamlet. Then is doomsday near! But your news is not true. Let me
question more in particular. What have you, my good friends,
deserved at the hands of Fortune that she sends you to prison
hither?
• Guildenstern. Prison, my lord?
• Hamlet. Denmark's a prison.
• Rosencrantz. Then is the world one.
• Hamlet. A goodly one; in which there are many confines, wards, and
dungeons, Denmark being one o' th' worst.
• Rosencrantz. We think not so, my lord.
• Hamlet. Why, then 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good
or bad but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison.
• Rosencrantz. Why, then your ambition makes it one. 'Tis too narrow for your
mind.
• Hamlet. O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a
king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams.
• Guildenstern. Which dreams indeed are ambition; for the very substance of
the ambitious is merely the shadow of a dream.
• Hamlet. A dream itself is but a shadow.
• Rosencrantz. Truly, and I hold ambition of so airy and light a quality that
it is but a shadow's shadow.
• Hamlet. Then are our beggars bodies, and our monarchs and outstretch'd
heroes the beggars' shadows. Shall we to th' court? for, by my
fay, I cannot reason.
=========================================================


On Jul 3, 2018, at 9:08 PM, David Green via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:

How is the line from Hamlet misunderstood?

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 6:57 PM C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
One of the most misunderstood lines in Shakespeare is Hamlet’s “...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”

Here a FOA (Friend of AWARE) brilliantly applies it to current US politics (h/t K. Aram):

"Today I had two discussions, one with people advocating hate crime laws, and another with people defending Antifa, and it occurred to me that they were pretty much the same people.

"Hate crime laws are actually thought crime laws, in that they take what is already a crime, and add years to the sentence if the perp was thinking bad thoughts when they committed the crime.

"Antifas are people who commit crimes, and expect to go unpunished at all, because they were thinking good thoughts when they committed the crime.

"This is magical thinking, the idea that thoughts are more important than reality. This is very American, since we have had multiple Think Yourself Rich fads, from Napoleon Hill to Oprah. And we are earnestly told that having a president who 'believes' in climate change is more important than actual policy changes. And, of course, the latest fad in which you can think yourself right into the opposite sex. (And not in the old 'think yourself irresistible' way.)

"I think I'll just be over here, in the corner, visualizing peace.” --Paula Densnow



_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
_______________________________________________
Peace mailing list
Peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:Peace at lists.chambana.net>
https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace


_______________________________________________
Peace mailing list
Peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:Peace at lists.chambana.net>
https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace


_______________________________________________
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Wed Jul  4 15:41:55 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 15:41:55 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Ecuador has just issued an arrest warrant for ex President
 Correa, RT.Com
Message-ID: <CY4PR08MB2374660C34326C66A9E51D94A3410@CY4PR08MB2374.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

Correa graduated from the U of I, and as President of Equador, he protected Julian Assange with asylum in the Ecuadorean Embassy in the UK, now with the US supported right wing government in power, Assange is threatened with expulsion and arrest by the British government , which will likely turn him over the US to be disappeared in our prison system.

From jbw292002 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  4 19:58:08 2018
From: jbw292002 at gmail.com (John W.)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:58:08 -0500
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] "...thinking makes it so"
In-Reply-To: <CY4PR08MB23744144A0E10F113E9882BFA3410@CY4PR08MB2374.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
References: <2F052550-1207-4A39-B100-F7A7FC421FAA@gmail.com>
 <CAOiGAyFXskE0dw3pB_NsKsvb0XcURoHX4y9nm1Cm72M3xxRk0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <580EB405-5872-4A3D-A050-46273DDDF9EE@gmail.com>
 <CAOiGAyGrFN1OwN2HMHnDMfsgRQu1YSuKHL5dWmnc8-oFoANTZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNeTNEqfqBzgs4nG_3FXwp3reMXkgYi-UgDc_+c3VBiib_Law@mail.gmail.com>
 <CY4PR08MB23744144A0E10F113E9882BFA3410@CY4PR08MB2374.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAPnrEOWktndppdT-_zHqvwm=1yeeVPHmHjRANYcRhcd04BEyjw@mail.gmail.com>

If this was on Facebook I would "Like" it, Karen.  Absolutely right.

John Wason



On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 9:53 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <
peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

Anti-fa does support violence, in that its “planned fight back” its
> “planned defensive attacks,” as if military or police. It creates chaos,
> and chaos leads to violence and disintegration of the left, thus with chaos
> the government, and ruling elite wins.  There are historical examples
> proving this.
>
>  One does not have to be a pacifist, one does not need to oppose
> uprisings, but chaos, leads to violence and disintegration of the left.
>
> No movement/revolution using violence has ever succeeded. MLK knew this,
> perhaps he couldn’t have accomplished what he did without the threat of
> Malcolm X, but Malcolm would never have been able to accomplish what MLK
> did.
>
> Only civil resistance succeeds.
>
>
> On Jul 4, 2018, at 06:53, Harry Mickalide via Peace <
> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
> It's not that Antifa doesn't expect punishment. It's that they *risk *punishment
> in order to defend us and fight fascism.
>
> In fact, if we're going to compare the difference between thought and
> action, we here on the Internet are *thinking* about creating a just
> world, while people in Antifa are in the streets actually *doing *it.
>
> Here is an article where multiple people thank Antifa for defending them
> from Nazis.
> http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/
> 2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 11:06 PM, David Green via Peace <
> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure of the precise origin of the notion of "hate crimes" in the
>> law in our own country, if there is such an origin; but my sense--perhaps
>> more directly applicable to European and Canadian laws that directly
>> monitor speech--has long been that what Norman Finkelstein has called the
>> "Holocaust Industry" contributed to the development of such a notion, by
>> equating the actuality of the Holocaust, anti-semitic beliefs, and
>> criticism of Israel's very real crimes.
>>
>> DG
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 9:47 PM C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It might mean
>>> (a) opinion constitutes moral worth - "it’s good/evil if you think it
>>> is”; or
>>> (b) opinion misinterprets moral worth - "it’s good, but you mistakenly
>>> think it evil.”
>>>
>>> HAMLET, 2.2=================================================
>>> • Hamlet. ... What news ?
>>> • Rosencrantz. None, my lord, but that the world's grown honest.
>>> • Hamlet. Then is doomsday near! But your news is not true. Let me
>>> question more in particular. What have you, my good friends,
>>> deserved at the hands of Fortune that she sends you to prison
>>> hither?
>>> • Guildenstern. Prison, my lord?
>>> • Hamlet. Denmark's a prison.
>>> • Rosencrantz. Then is the world one.
>>> • Hamlet. A goodly one; in which there are many confines, wards, and
>>> dungeons, Denmark being one o' th' worst.
>>> • Rosencrantz. We think not so, my lord.
>>> • Hamlet. Why, then 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good
>>> or bad but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison.
>>> • Rosencrantz. Why, then your ambition makes it one. 'Tis too narrow for
>>> your
>>> mind.
>>> • Hamlet. O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a
>>> king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams.
>>> • Guildenstern. Which dreams indeed are ambition; for the very substance
>>> of
>>> the ambitious is merely the shadow of a dream.
>>> • Hamlet. A dream itself is but a shadow.
>>> • Rosencrantz. Truly, and I hold ambition of so airy and light a quality
>>> that
>>> it is but a shadow's shadow.
>>> • Hamlet. Then are our beggars bodies, and our monarchs and outstretch'd
>>> heroes the beggars' shadows. Shall we to th' court? for, by my
>>> fay, I cannot reason.
>>> =========================================================
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 3, 2018, at 9:08 PM, David Green via Peace <
>>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> How is the line from Hamlet misunderstood?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 6:57 PM C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> One of the most misunderstood lines in Shakespeare is Hamlet’s
>>>> “...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
>>>>
>>>> Here a FOA (Friend of AWARE) brilliantly applies it to current US
>>>> politics (h/t K. Aram):
>>>>
>>>> "Today I had two discussions, one with people advocating hate crime
>>>> laws, and another with people defending Antifa, and it occurred to me that
>>>> they were pretty much the same people.
>>>>
>>>> "Hate crime laws are actually thought crime laws, in that they take
>>>> what is already a crime, and add years to the sentence if the perp was
>>>> thinking bad thoughts when they committed the crime.
>>>>
>>>> "Antifas are people who commit crimes, and expect to go unpunished at
>>>> all, because they were thinking good thoughts when they committed the crime.
>>>>
>>>> "This is magical thinking, the idea that thoughts are more important
>>>> than reality. This is very American, since we have had multiple Think
>>>> Yourself Rich fads, from Napoleon Hill to Oprah. And we are earnestly told
>>>> that having a president who 'believes' in climate change is more important
>>>> than actual policy changes. And, of course, the latest fad in which you can
>>>> think yourself right into the opposite sex. (And not in the old 'think
>>>> yourself irresistible' way.)
>>>>
>>>> "I think I'll just be over here, in the corner, visualizing peace.”
>>>> --Paula Densnow
>>>
>>>
> _______________________________________________
> Peace mailing list
> Peace at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>
>
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From jbw292002 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  4 20:04:23 2018
From: jbw292002 at gmail.com (John W.)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 15:04:23 -0500
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] "...thinking makes it so"
In-Reply-To: <CAPnrEOWktndppdT-_zHqvwm=1yeeVPHmHjRANYcRhcd04BEyjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2F052550-1207-4A39-B100-F7A7FC421FAA@gmail.com>
 <CAOiGAyFXskE0dw3pB_NsKsvb0XcURoHX4y9nm1Cm72M3xxRk0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <580EB405-5872-4A3D-A050-46273DDDF9EE@gmail.com>
 <CAOiGAyGrFN1OwN2HMHnDMfsgRQu1YSuKHL5dWmnc8-oFoANTZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNeTNEqfqBzgs4nG_3FXwp3reMXkgYi-UgDc_+c3VBiib_Law@mail.gmail.com>
 <CY4PR08MB23744144A0E10F113E9882BFA3410@CY4PR08MB2374.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPnrEOWktndppdT-_zHqvwm=1yeeVPHmHjRANYcRhcd04BEyjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPnrEOVfL7mM6CFdyyygu_CSaS+ipYUU-cfi5w21ah+o3b1aGg@mail.gmail.com>

I would add that Malcolm X, whom we thought of and still think of today as
being much more "militant" than MLK, really didn't do anything more than
preach the necessity, at times, of Black self-defense.  He didn't foment
violence for the sake of disruption.  Nor, I might add further, did the
Black Panthers or Stokely Carmichael or H. Rap Brown or any of the other
more "militant" Black leaders of the time.

John Wason again



On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 2:58 PM, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com> wrote:

If this was on Facebook I would "Like" it, Karen.  Absolutely right.
>
> John Wason
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 9:53 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <
> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
> Anti-fa does support violence, in that its “planned fight back” its
>> “planned defensive attacks,” as if military or police. It creates chaos,
>> and chaos leads to violence and disintegration of the left, thus with chaos
>> the government, and ruling elite wins.  There are historical examples
>> proving this.
>>
>>  One does not have to be a pacifist, one does not need to oppose
>> uprisings, but chaos, leads to violence and disintegration of the left.
>>
>> No movement/revolution using violence has ever succeeded. MLK knew this,
>> perhaps he couldn’t have accomplished what he did without the threat of
>> Malcolm X, but Malcolm would never have been able to accomplish what MLK
>> did.
>>
>> Only civil resistance succeeds.
>>
>>
>> On Jul 4, 2018, at 06:53, Harry Mickalide via Peace <
>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>
>> It's not that Antifa doesn't expect punishment. It's that they *risk *punishment
>> in order to defend us and fight fascism.
>>
>> In fact, if we're going to compare the difference between thought and
>> action, we here on the Internet are *thinking* about creating a just
>> world, while people in Antifa are in the streets actually *doing *it.
>>
>> Here is an article where multiple people thank Antifa for defending them
>> from Nazis.
>> http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/201
>> 7/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 11:06 PM, David Green via Peace <
>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not sure of the precise origin of the notion of "hate crimes" in the
>>> law in our own country, if there is such an origin; but my sense--perhaps
>>> more directly applicable to European and Canadian laws that directly
>>> monitor speech--has long been that what Norman Finkelstein has called the
>>> "Holocaust Industry" contributed to the development of such a notion, by
>>> equating the actuality of the Holocaust, anti-semitic beliefs, and
>>> criticism of Israel's very real crimes.
>>>
>>> DG
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 9:47 PM C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It might mean
>>>> (a) opinion constitutes moral worth - "it’s good/evil if you think it
>>>> is”; or
>>>> (b) opinion misinterprets moral worth - "it’s good, but you mistakenly
>>>> think it evil.”
>>>>
>>>> HAMLET, 2.2=================================================
>>>> • Hamlet. ... What news ?
>>>> • Rosencrantz. None, my lord, but that the world's grown honest.
>>>> • Hamlet. Then is doomsday near! But your news is not true. Let me
>>>> question more in particular. What have you, my good friends,
>>>> deserved at the hands of Fortune that she sends you to prison
>>>> hither?
>>>> • Guildenstern. Prison, my lord?
>>>> • Hamlet. Denmark's a prison.
>>>> • Rosencrantz. Then is the world one.
>>>> • Hamlet. A goodly one; in which there are many confines, wards, and
>>>> dungeons, Denmark being one o' th' worst.
>>>> • Rosencrantz. We think not so, my lord.
>>>> • Hamlet. Why, then 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good
>>>> or bad but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison.
>>>> • Rosencrantz. Why, then your ambition makes it one. 'Tis too narrow
>>>> for your
>>>> mind.
>>>> • Hamlet. O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a
>>>> king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams.
>>>> • Guildenstern. Which dreams indeed are ambition; for the very
>>>> substance of
>>>> the ambitious is merely the shadow of a dream.
>>>> • Hamlet. A dream itself is but a shadow.
>>>> • Rosencrantz. Truly, and I hold ambition of so airy and light a
>>>> quality that
>>>> it is but a shadow's shadow.
>>>> • Hamlet. Then are our beggars bodies, and our monarchs and
>>>> outstretch'd
>>>> heroes the beggars' shadows. Shall we to th' court? for, by my
>>>> fay, I cannot reason.
>>>> =========================================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 3, 2018, at 9:08 PM, David Green via Peace <
>>>> peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> How is the line from Hamlet misunderstood?
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 6:57 PM C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
>>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> One of the most misunderstood lines in Shakespeare is Hamlet’s
>>>>> “...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
>>>>>
>>>>> Here a FOA (Friend of AWARE) brilliantly applies it to current US
>>>>> politics (h/t K. Aram):
>>>>>
>>>>> "Today I had two discussions, one with people advocating hate crime
>>>>> laws, and another with people defending Antifa, and it occurred to me that
>>>>> they were pretty much the same people.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Hate crime laws are actually thought crime laws, in that they take
>>>>> what is already a crime, and add years to the sentence if the perp was
>>>>> thinking bad thoughts when they committed the crime.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Antifas are people who commit crimes, and expect to go unpunished at
>>>>> all, because they were thinking good thoughts when they committed the crime.
>>>>>
>>>>> "This is magical thinking, the idea that thoughts are more important
>>>>> than reality. This is very American, since we have had multiple Think
>>>>> Yourself Rich fads, from Napoleon Hill to Oprah. And we are earnestly told
>>>>> that having a president who 'believes' in climate change is more important
>>>>> than actual policy changes. And, of course, the latest fad in which you can
>>>>> think yourself right into the opposite sex. (And not in the old 'think
>>>>> yourself irresistible' way.)
>>>>>
>>>>> "I think I'll just be over here, in the corner, visualizing peace.”
>>>>> --Paula Densnow
>>>>
>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Peace mailing list
>> Peace at lists.chambana.net
>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>>
>>
>
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From marketype at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  4 23:51:15 2018
From: marketype at yahoo.com (Mark Morenz-Harbinger)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 23:51:15 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] "...thinking makes it so"
References: <1420580075.2861908.1530748275361.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1420580075.2861908.1530748275361@mail.yahoo.com>

Wason, you're so full of ****. I haven't forgotten when you (obliquely, I'll admit, but nevertheless) threatened me and my kids in an exchange on the WEFT listservs when it was going through its turmoil. [For the record, that chaos was caused entirely by non-violent means...fractures on the left are mostly caused by moles, has been my observation] 

While it is ballsy that you hover on these "peace" and "peace-discuss" lists, it is unfortunate that anyone on those lists gives you any credence. 

This is an old email that I seldom use, but when I saw this-- oh brother. I will now take the time to unsubscribe.

_Mark 


--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 7/4/18, John W. via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] "...thinking makes it so"
 To: "Karen Aram" <karenaram at hotmail.com>
 Cc: "peace" <peace at lists.chambana.net>, "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
 Date: Wednesday, July 4, 2018, 1:04 PM
 
 
 I would add that Malcolm X, whom we
 thought of and still think of today as being much more
 "militant" than MLK, really didn't do anything
 more than preach the necessity, at times, of Black
 self-defense.  He didn't foment violence for the sake
 of disruption.  Nor, I might add further, did the Black
 Panthers or Stokely Carmichael or H. Rap Brown or any of the
 other more "militant" Black leaders of the
 time.
 John Wason
 again
 
 
 On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 2:58
 PM, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
 wrote:
 If this was on
 Facebook I would "Like" it, Karen.  Absolutely
 right.
 John
 Wason
 
 
 On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 9:53
 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net>
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 Anti-fa does support violence, in that its “planned
 fight back” its “planned defensive attacks,” as if
 military or police. It creates chaos, and chaos leads to
 violence and disintegration of the left, thus with chaos the
 government, and ruling
  elite wins.  There are historical examples proving
 this.
 
 
 
 
  One does not have to be a pacifist, one does not need
 to oppose uprisings, but chaos, leads to violence and
 disintegration of the left. 
 
 
 
 No movement/revolution using violence has ever
 succeeded. MLK knew this, perhaps he couldn’t have
 accomplished what he did without the threat of Malcolm X,
 but Malcolm would never have been able to accomplish what
 MLK did.
 
 
 
 Only civil resistance succeeds.
  
 
 
 
 
 On Jul 4, 2018, at 06:53, Harry Mickalide via Peace
 <peace at lists.chambana.net>
 wrote:
 
 
 
 It's not that Antifa doesn't expect
 punishment. It's that they
 risk punishment in order to defend us and fight
 fascism.
 
 
 
 In fact, if we're going to compare the difference
 between thought and action, we here on the Internet are
 thinking about creating a just world, while people
 in Antifa are in the streets actually
 doing it.
 
 
 
 
 Here is an article where multiple people thank Antifa
 for defending them from Nazis. 
 
 
 http://www.slate.com/articles/
 news_and_politics/politics/201
 7/08/what_the_alt_left_was_act
 ually_doing_in_charlottesville .html
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at
 11:06 PM, David Green via Peace 
 <peace at lists.chambana.net>
 wrote:
 
 
 I'm not sure of the precise origin of the
 notion of "hate crimes" in the law in our own
 country, if there is such an origin; but my sense--perhaps
 more directly applicable to European and Canadian laws that
 directly monitor speech--has
  long been that what Norman Finkelstein has called the
 "Holocaust Industry" contributed to the
 development of such a notion, by equating the actuality of
 the Holocaust, anti-semitic beliefs, and criticism of
 Israel's very real crimes.
 
 
 
 DG
 
 
 
 
 On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 9:47 PM C G Estabrook
 <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
 wrote:
 
 
 
 It might mean
 (a) opinion constitutes moral worth - "it’s
 good/evil if you think it is”; or
 (b) opinion misinterprets moral worth - "it’s
 good, but you mistakenly think it evil.”
 
 
 
 HAMLET, 2.2===========================
 ======================
 
 • Hamlet. ... What
 news ?
 
 
 • Rosencrantz. None,
 my lord, but that the world's grown honest.
 • Hamlet. Then is
 doomsday near! But your news is not true. Let me 
 
 question more in particular. What have you, my good
 friends, 
 
 deserved at the hands of Fortune that she sends you to
 prison 
 
 hither?
 
 
 •
 Guildenstern. Prison, my lord?
 
 
 •
 Hamlet. Denmark's a prison. 
 
 
 • Rosencrantz. Then
 is the world one.
 
 
 • Hamlet. A goodly
 one; in which there are many confines, wards, and 
 
 dungeons, Denmark being one o' th' worst.
 
 
 • Rosencrantz. We
 think not so, my lord.
 
 
 • Hamlet. Why, then
 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good 
 
 or bad but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison.
 
 
 • Rosencrantz. Why,
 then your ambition makes it one. 'Tis too narrow for
 your 
 
 mind.
 
 
 • Hamlet. O God, I
 could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a 
 
 king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad
 dreams.
 
 
 •
 Guildenstern. Which dreams indeed are ambition; for the
 very substance of 
 
 the ambitious is merely the shadow of a dream.
 
 
 • Hamlet. A dream
 itself is but a shadow.
 
 
 •
 Rosencrantz. Truly, and I hold ambition of so airy and
 light a quality that 
 
 it is but a shadow's shadow. 
 
 
 • Hamlet. Then are
 our beggars bodies, and our monarchs and
 outstretch'd 
 
 heroes the beggars' shadows. Shall we to th' court?
 for, by my 
 
 fay, I cannot reason.
 
 ==============================
 ===========================
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 On Jul 3, 2018, at 9:08 PM, David Green via Peace
 <peace at lists.chambana.net>
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 How is the line from Hamlet
 misunderstood?
 
 
 
 On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 6:57 PM C G Estabrook
 via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.
 net> wrote:
 
 
 
 One of the most misunderstood lines in Shakespeare is
 Hamlet’s “...there is nothing either good or bad, but
 thinking makes it so.”
 
 
 
 Here a FOA (Friend of AWARE) brilliantly applies it to
 current US politics (h/t K. Aram):
 
 
 
 "Today I had two discussions, one with people
 advocating hate crime laws, and another with people
 defending Antifa, and it occurred to me that they were
 pretty much the same people.
 
 
 
 "Hate crime laws are actually thought crime laws, in
 that they take what is already a crime, and add years to the
 sentence if the perp was thinking bad thoughts when they
 committed the crime.
 
 
 
 "Antifas are people who commit crimes, and expect to go
 unpunished at all, because they were thinking good thoughts
 when they committed the crime.
 
 
 
 "This is magical thinking, the idea that thoughts are
 more important than reality. This is very American, since we
 have had multiple Think Yourself Rich fads, from Napoleon
 Hill to Oprah. And we are earnestly told that having a
 president who 'believes' in climate
  change is more important than actual policy changes. And,
 of course, the latest fad in which you can think yourself
 right into the opposite sex. (And not in the old 'think
 yourself irresistible' way.)
 
 
 
 "I think I'll just be over here, in the corner,
 visualizing peace.” --Paula
 Densnow
 
 
 
 
 ______________________________
 _________________
 
 Peace mailing list
 
 Peace at lists.chambana.net
 
 https://lists.chambana.net/mai
 lman/listinfo/peace
 
 
 
 
 
 _______________________________________________
 Peace mailing list
 Peace at lists.chambana.net
 https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
 
 -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
 
 

From karenaram at hotmail.com  Thu Jul  5 00:43:00 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 00:43:00 +0000
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] "...thinking makes it so"
In-Reply-To: <1420580075.2861908.1530748275361@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1420580075.2861908.1530748275361.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1420580075.2861908.1530748275361@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB23829BCA58808B97BDA89BB0A3400@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

> Mark, I agree with your statement: “fractures on the left are mostly caused by moles,” my point in respect to anti-fa…….

John: I’m not saying Malcolm X or Stokely threatened violence, but they were angry, and militant, and rightly so, in comparison with the pacifist Dr. MLK, who constantly preached “peace,” because MLK knew there was only one way to achieve the goal, at that time.  Even then he was painted as responsible for violence, to white folks who only knew what the media at that time told them. 
What Malcolm and Stokely threatened was “revolution” and it scared the shit out of the USG, so capitulating to MLK’s demands were a solution. 
Just as “social security” was a capitulation, solution to save “capitalism.”

> On Jul 4, 2018, at 16:51, Mark Morenz-Harbinger <marketype at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> Wason, you're so full of ****. I haven't forgotten when you (obliquely, I'll admit, but nevertheless) threatened me and my kids in an exchange on the WEFT listservs when it was going through its turmoil. [For the record, that “chaos was caused entirely by non-violent means...fractures on the left are mostly caused by moles," has been my observation] 
> 
> While it is ballsy that you hover on these "peace" and "peace-discuss" lists, it is unfortunate that anyone on those lists gives you any credence. 
> 
> This is an old email that I seldom use, but when I saw this-- oh brother. I will now take the time to unsubscribe.
> 
> _Mark 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 7/4/18, John W. via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] "...thinking makes it so"
> To: "Karen Aram" <karenaram at hotmail.com>
> Cc: "peace" <peace at lists.chambana.net>, "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
> Date: Wednesday, July 4, 2018, 1:04 PM
> 
> 
> I would add that Malcolm X, whom we
> thought of and still think of today as being much more
> "militant" than MLK, really didn't do anything
> more than preach the necessity, at times, of Black
> self-defense.  He didn't foment violence for the sake
> of disruption.  Nor, I might add further, did the Black
> Panthers or Stokely Carmichael or H. Rap Brown or any of the
> other more "militant" Black leaders of the
> time.
> John Wason
> again
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 2:58
> PM, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> If this was on
> Facebook I would "Like" it, Karen.  Absolutely
> right.
> John
> Wason
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 9:53
> AM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anti-fa does support violence, in that its “planned
> fight back” its “planned defensive attacks,” as if
> military or police. It creates chaos, and chaos leads to
> violence and disintegration of the left, thus with chaos the
> government, and ruling
>  elite wins.  There are historical examples proving
> this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  One does not have to be a pacifist, one does not need
> to oppose uprisings, but chaos, leads to violence and
> disintegration of the left. 
> 
> 
> 
> No movement/revolution using violence has ever
> succeeded. MLK knew this, perhaps he couldn’t have
> accomplished what he did without the threat of Malcolm X,
> but Malcolm would never have been able to accomplish what
> MLK did.
> 
> 
> 
> Only civil resistance succeeds.
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 4, 2018, at 06:53, Harry Mickalide via Peace
> <peace at lists.chambana.net>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not that Antifa doesn't expect
> punishment. It's that they
> risk punishment in order to defend us and fight
> fascism.
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, if we're going to compare the difference
> between thought and action, we here on the Internet are
> thinking about creating a just world, while people
> in Antifa are in the streets actually
> doing it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an article where multiple people thank Antifa
> for defending them from Nazis. 
> 
> 
> http://www.slate.com/articles/
> news_and_politics/politics/201
> 7/08/what_the_alt_left_was_act
> ually_doing_in_charlottesville .html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at
> 11:06 PM, David Green via Peace 
> <peace at lists.chambana.net>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm not sure of the precise origin of the
> notion of "hate crimes" in the law in our own
> country, if there is such an origin; but my sense--perhaps
> more directly applicable to European and Canadian laws that
> directly monitor speech--has
>  long been that what Norman Finkelstein has called the
> "Holocaust Industry" contributed to the
> development of such a notion, by equating the actuality of
> the Holocaust, anti-semitic beliefs, and criticism of
> Israel's very real crimes.
> 
> 
> 
> DG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 9:47 PM C G Estabrook
> <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> It might mean
> (a) opinion constitutes moral worth - "it’s
> good/evil if you think it is”; or
> (b) opinion misinterprets moral worth - "it’s
> good, but you mistakenly think it evil.”
> 
> 
> 
> HAMLET, 2.2===========================
> ======================
> 
> • Hamlet. ... What
> news ?
> 
> 
> • Rosencrantz. None,
> my lord, but that the world's grown honest.
> • Hamlet. Then is
> doomsday near! But your news is not true. Let me 
> 
> question more in particular. What have you, my good
> friends, 
> 
> deserved at the hands of Fortune that she sends you to
> prison 
> 
> hither?
> 
> 
> •
> Guildenstern. Prison, my lord?
> 
> 
> •
> Hamlet. Denmark's a prison. 
> 
> 
> • Rosencrantz. Then
> is the world one.
> 
> 
> • Hamlet. A goodly
> one; in which there are many confines, wards, and 
> 
> dungeons, Denmark being one o' th' worst.
> 
> 
> • Rosencrantz. We
> think not so, my lord.
> 
> 
> • Hamlet. Why, then
> 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good 
> 
> or bad but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison.
> 
> 
> • Rosencrantz. Why,
> then your ambition makes it one. 'Tis too narrow for
> your 
> 
> mind.
> 
> 
> • Hamlet. O God, I
> could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a 
> 
> king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad
> dreams.
> 
> 
> •
> Guildenstern. Which dreams indeed are ambition; for the
> very substance of 
> 
> the ambitious is merely the shadow of a dream.
> 
> 
> • Hamlet. A dream
> itself is but a shadow.
> 
> 
> •
> Rosencrantz. Truly, and I hold ambition of so airy and
> light a quality that 
> 
> it is but a shadow's shadow. 
> 
> 
> • Hamlet. Then are
> our beggars bodies, and our monarchs and
> outstretch'd 
> 
> heroes the beggars' shadows. Shall we to th' court?
> for, by my 
> 
> fay, I cannot reason.
> 
> ==============================
> ===========================
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 3, 2018, at 9:08 PM, David Green via Peace
> <peace at lists.chambana.net>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How is the line from Hamlet
> misunderstood?
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 6:57 PM C G Estabrook
> via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.
> net> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the most misunderstood lines in Shakespeare is
> Hamlet’s “...there is nothing either good or bad, but
> thinking makes it so.”
> 
> 
> 
> Here a FOA (Friend of AWARE) brilliantly applies it to
> current US politics (h/t K. Aram):
> 
> 
> 
> "Today I had two discussions, one with people
> advocating hate crime laws, and another with people
> defending Antifa, and it occurred to me that they were
> pretty much the same people.
> 
> 
> 
> "Hate crime laws are actually thought crime laws, in
> that they take what is already a crime, and add years to the
> sentence if the perp was thinking bad thoughts when they
> committed the crime.
> 
> 
> 
> "Antifas are people who commit crimes, and expect to go
> unpunished at all, because they were thinking good thoughts
> when they committed the crime.
> 
> 
> 
> "This is magical thinking, the idea that thoughts are
> more important than reality. This is very American, since we
> have had multiple Think Yourself Rich fads, from Napoleon
> Hill to Oprah. And we are earnestly told that having a
> president who 'believes' in climate
>  change is more important than actual policy changes. And,
> of course, the latest fad in which you can think yourself
> right into the opposite sex. (And not in the old 'think
> yourself irresistible' way.)
> 
> 
> 
> "I think I'll just be over here, in the corner,
> visualizing peace.” --Paula
> Densnow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ______________________________
> _________________
> 
> Peace mailing list
> 
> Peace at lists.chambana.net
> 
> https://lists.chambana.net/mai
> lman/listinfo/peace
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Peace mailing list
> Peace at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
> 
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> 
> 


From karenaram at hotmail.com  Thu Jul  5 01:12:57 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 01:12:57 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Former Ecuadorian President
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB2382A0BBF6BF383D1C072AACA3400@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

He now lives in Belgium:

https://www.rt.com/news/431731-correa-arrest-allegations-interview/

From karenaram at hotmail.com  Thu Jul  5 15:21:43 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 15:21:43 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Fwd: Digital Organizing for Progressive Campaigns and Issues
References: <MWHPR08MB23823357FC5B762880E69FBBA3420@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB2382E989DD28733982B91209A3400@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>


DIGITAL ORGANIZING FOR PROGRESSIVE CAMPAIGNS AND ISSUES: 2-DAY WORKSHOP
SATURDAY, JULY 7, 10 AM – 6 PM & JULY 8, 10 AM – 6 PM
In 2008, Obama For America revolutionized the use of social media for political campaigns, and Barack Obama won the election in a landslide (winning by 9.5 million popular and 192 electoral votes, but who’s counting?).
In 2016, the Trump campaign and its allies relied extensively on social media and achieved an upset victory, plunging a divided nation into chaos. Since the 2016 election, progressive grassroots groups and campaigns have exploded on the local, state, and national scene, resulting in fierce competition for visibility and resources.
Have you been trying to figure how best to use digital organizing strategies and tactics to accentuate the organizing work you do for candidates and around issues? Then this two-day training is for you!

This training is designed for candidates, campaign staffers/volunteers, and people organizing for racial, economic, or climate justice who already use social media (mass email, Facebook, etc.) and want to gain professional skills.

Best news: We have three spaces available for industrious but cash-strapped activists willing to volunteer for local candidates. Contact deb at pdamerica.org<mailto:deb at pdamerica.org>.
Topics to be covered in-depth:

* The role digital organizing can play throughout your entire campaign/organization

* Key strategies for effective email writing and social media

* Building an offline and online strategy that works together and how to measure the results
Presenter: Beth Becker, Becker Digital Strategies
Start: July 07, 2018•10:00 AM                                                                           End: July 08, 2018• 6:00
PMLocation: IBEW Local 601•3301 Boardwalk Drive, Champaign, IL 61822
Host Contact Info: beth at beckerdigitalstrategies.com<mailto:beth at beckerdigitalstrategies.com>                      Local Contact: deb at pdamerica.org<mailto:deb at pdamerica.org>
Local sponsors: Champaign County Democrats, Central IL PDA (Progressive Democrats of America)
Tickets: $50 for 16 hours of intensive training. To keep costs low, please bring a sack lunch. We will provide beverages, snacks, and fixings for peanut butter/jelly sandwiches.
https://actionnetwork.org/ticketed_events/introduction-to-digital-organizing-champaign?clear_id=true
Paid for by Progressive Democrats of America and printed in-house with volunteer labor. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate’s committee.

Beth Becker is the founder of Becker Digital Strategies, a boutique political digital consulting firm specializing in top-level digital strategy, social media strategy, and digital training. She is well known for developing and leading NOI (New Organizing Institute)-style digital boot camp trainings and mentoring the next generation of digital campaigners. With 20 years of experience in digital media, Beth blends strategy with hands-on expertise in the use of social media to organize grassroots movements and energize campaigns. She has trained extensively for the Congressional Progressive Caucus and other progressive organizations and candidates.

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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Thu Jul  5 22:40:22 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 22:40:22 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Fwd:This Is What Modern War Propaganda Looks Like
References: <139971992.4880.0@wordpress.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB2382CC5F92B55F84DB7AC6E3A3400@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>




New post on Caitlin Johnstone
        [https://i1.wp.com/caitlinjohnstone.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/cropped-caitlinpic1.jpg?resize=32%2C32&ssl=1]
[http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/12152988a68a6d4dae7506812444c18f?s=50&d=monsterid&r=G]<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/?author=2>
This Is What Modern War Propaganda Looks Like<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2018/07/05/this-is-what-modern-war-propaganda-looks-like/>
by Caitlin Johnstone<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/?author=2>

I've been noticing videos going viral the last few days, some<https://twitter.com/HeshmatAlavi/status/1013122527361548290> with millions of views<https://www.facebook.com/Vocativ/videos/2039873829358175/>, about Muslim women bravely fighting to free themselves from cultural oppression in the Middle East. The videos, curiously, are being shared enthusiastically by many Republicans and pro-Israel hawks<https://twitter.com/MsJulieLenarz/status/1014470758922416128>, who aren't traditionally the sort of crowd you see rallying to support the civil rights of Muslims. What's up with that?

Well, you may want to sit down for this shocker, but it turns out that they happen to be women from a nation that the US war machine is currently escalating operations against. They are Iranian.

Whenever you see the sudden emergence of an attractive media campaign that is sympathetic to the plight of civilians in a resource-rich nation unaligned with the western empire, you are seeing propaganda. When that nation is surrounded by other nations with similar human rights transgressions and yet those transgressions are ignored by that same media campaign, you are most certainly seeing propaganda. When that nation just so happens to already be the target of starvation sanctions and escalated covert CIA ops<https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/why-you-should-be-intensely-skeptical-of-everything-you-hear-about-iran-protests-497d73e11ee2>, you can bet the farm that you are seeing propaganda.

Back in December a memo was leaked from inside the Trump administration showing how then-Secretary of State, DC neophyte Rex Tillerson, was coached on how the US empire uses human rights as a pretense on which to attack and undermine noncompliant governments. Politico reports<https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/19/tillerson-state-human-rights-304118>:

The May 17 memo<https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000160-6c37-da3c-a371-ec3f13380001> reads like a crash course for a businessman-turned-diplomat, and its conclusion offers a starkly realist vision: that the U.S. should use human rights as a club against its adversaries, like Iran, China and North Korea, while giving a pass to repressive allies like the Philippines, Egypt and Saudi Arabia.


“Allies should be treated differently — and better — than adversaries. Otherwise, we end up with more adversaries, and fewer allies,” argued the memo, written by Tillerson’s influential policy aide, Brian Hook.

The propaganda machine doesn't operate any differently from the State Department, since they serve the same establishment. US ally Saudi Arabia is celebrated by the mass media for "liberal reform" in allowing women to drive despite hard evidence<https://twitter.com/LizSly/status/998361860465352705> that those "reforms" are barely surface-level cosmetics to present a pretty face to the western world, but Iranian women, who have been able to drive for years<http://realiran.org/women-driving-in-iran-things-you-need-to-know/>, are painted as uniquely oppressed. Iran is condemned by establishment war whores for the flaws in its democratic process, while Saudi Arabia, an actual monarchy, goes completely unscrutinized.

This is because the US-centralized power establishment, which has never at any point in its history cared about human rights, plans on effecting regime change<https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/stupid-ugly-swamp-monster-pretends-to-care-about-iranian-human-rights-cfac472889d8> in Iran by any means necessary. Should those means necessitate a potentially controversial degree of direct military engagement, the empire needs to make sure it retains control of the narrative<https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/whoever-controls-the-narrative-controls-the-world-c22e1134e857>.

Women in Iran are recording the abuse they suffer at the hands of men for not wearing religious clothing. May the good people of Iran free themselves from the shackles of the tyrannical mullah theocracy. pic.twitter.com/QWcPI5wylR<https://t.co/QWcPI5wylR>

— Julie Lenarz (@MsJulieLenarz) July 4, 2018<https://twitter.com/MsJulieLenarz/status/1014470758922416128?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw>

This is what modern war propaganda looks like. It will never look ugly. It will never directly show you its real intentions. If it did, it wouldn't work. It can't just come right out and say "Hey we need to do horrible, evil things to the people in this country on the other side of the world in your name using your resources, please play along without making a fuss." It will necessarily look fresh and fun and rebellious. It will look appealing. It will look sexy.

And it's working. I am currently getting tagged in these videos multiple times a day by Trump supporters who are eager to show me proof that I'm on the wrong side of the Iran issue; the psyop is so well-lubricated with a combination of sleek presentation and confirmation bias that it slides right past their skepticism and becomes accepted as fact, even the one with the Now This pussyhat propaganda logo in the corner.

Be less trusting of these monsters, please. The people of Afghanistan haven't benefitted from the interminable military quagmire that has cost tens of thousands of their lives. The invaders of Iraq were never "greeted as liberators" by an oppressed population. The humanitarian intervention in Libya left a humanitarian catastrophe in its wake far more horrific than anything it claimed to be trying to prevent. Saving the children of Syria with western interventionism has left half a million Syrians dead.

If the Iranians do in fact wish to change their government, it should happen without crippling sanctions, collaboration with extremist terror cults<https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/that-time-hillary-clinton-removed-john-boltons-favorite-terror-cult-from-the-terrorist-list-65e7776c5e2f>, or the rapey tentacles of the CIA manipulating the situation. There has never been a US-led regime change in the Middle East that wasn't disastrous. People should be screaming at the US and its allies to cease these interventions, not applauding propaganda that is clearly being manufactured by that same empire.

__________________________

Internet censorship is getting pretty bad, so best way to keep seeing the stuff I publish is to get on the mailing list for my website<http://caitlinjohnstone.com/>, so you’ll get an email notification for everything I publish. My articles and podcasts are entirely reader and listener-funded, so if you enjoyed this piece please consider sharing it around, liking me on Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/CaitlinAJohnstone/>, following my antics on Twitter<https://twitter.com/caitoz>, checking out my podcast<https://soundcloud.com/going_rogue>, throwing some money into my hat onPatreon<https://www.patreon.com/user?u=4445783> or Paypal<http://paypal.me/caitlinjohnstone>, or buying my book Woke: A Field Guide for Utopia Preppers<https://www.amazon.com/Woke-Field-Guide-Utopia-Preppers/dp/064823455X/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8>.

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Caitlin Johnstone<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/?author=2> | July 5, 2018 at 7:08 pm | Tags: hijab<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/?taxonomy=post_tag&term=hijab>, Iran<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/?taxonomy=post_tag&term=iran>, propaganda<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/?taxonomy=post_tag&term=propaganda>, war<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/?taxonomy=post_tag&term=war>, women<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/?taxonomy=post_tag&term=women> | Categories: Article<https://caitlinjohnstone.com/?taxonomy=category&term=article> | URL: https://wp.me/p9tj6M-1gI

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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Fri Jul  6 12:22:26 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 12:22:26 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Fwd: Digital Organizing for Progressive Campaigns and Issues
References: <MWHPR08MB23823357FC5B762880E69FBBA3420@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB23829E628B2EF8467A0166CFA3470@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>


DIGITAL ORGANIZING FOR PROGRESSIVE CAMPAIGNS AND ISSUES: 2-DAY WORKSHOP
SATURDAY, JULY 7, 10 AM – 6 PM & JULY 8, 10 AM – 6 PM
In 2008, Obama For America revolutionized the use of social media for political campaigns, and Barack Obama won the election in a landslide (winning by 9.5 million popular and 192 electoral votes, but who’s counting?).
In 2016, the Trump campaign and its allies relied extensively on social media and achieved an upset victory, plunging a divided nation into chaos. Since the 2016 election, progressive grassroots groups and campaigns have exploded on the local, state, and national scene, resulting in fierce competition for visibility and resources.
Have you been trying to figure how best to use digital organizing strategies and tactics to accentuate the organizing work you do for candidates and around issues? Then this two-day training is for you!

This training is designed for candidates, campaign staffers/volunteers, and people organizing for racial, economic, or climate justice who already use social media (mass email, Facebook, etc.) and want to gain professional skills.

Best news: We have three spaces available for industrious but cash-strapped activists willing to volunteer for local candidates. Contact deb at pdamerica.org<mailto:deb at pdamerica.org>.
Topics to be covered in-depth:

* The role digital organizing can play throughout your entire campaign/organization

* Key strategies for effective email writing and social media

* Building an offline and online strategy that works together and how to measure the results
Presenter: Beth Becker, Becker Digital Strategies
Start: July 07, 2018•10:00 AM                                                                           End: July 08, 2018• 6:00
PMLocation: IBEW Local 601•3301 Boardwalk Drive, Champaign, IL 61822
Host Contact Info: beth at beckerdigitalstrategies.com<mailto:beth at beckerdigitalstrategies.com>                      Local Contact: deb at pdamerica.org<mailto:deb at pdamerica.org>
Local sponsors: Champaign County Democrats, Central IL PDA (Progressive Democrats of America)
Tickets: $50 for 16 hours of intensive training. To keep costs low, please bring a sack lunch. We will provide beverages, snacks, and fixings for peanut butter/jelly sandwiches.
https://actionnetwork.org/ticketed_events/introduction-to-digital-organizing-champaign?clear_id=true
Paid for by Progressive Democrats of America and printed in-house with volunteer labor. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate’s committee.

Beth Becker is the founder of Becker Digital Strategies, a boutique political digital consulting firm specializing in top-level digital strategy, social media strategy, and digital training. She is well known for developing and leading NOI (New Organizing Institute)-style digital boot camp trainings and mentoring the next generation of digital campaigners. With 20 years of experience in digital media, Beth blends strategy with hands-on expertise in the use of social media to organize grassroots movements and energize campaigns. She has trained extensively for the Congressional Progressive Caucus and other progressive organizations and candidates.

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From moboct1 at aim.com  Fri Jul  6 12:52:02 2018
From: moboct1 at aim.com (Mildred O'brien)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 08:52:02 -0400
Subject: [Peace] 4th of July celebration
In-Reply-To: <CY4PR08MB23745A94257153ADF01532BBA3410@CY4PR08MB2374.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CY4PR08MB23745A94257153ADF01532BBA3410@CY4PR08MB2374.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <1646fa638e0-17a0-21b0@webjas-vaa164.srv.aolmail.net>

"...for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival."  (Fred. Douglas)...except for Mother England, who first practiced and perfected the craft of slavery on her Irish neighbors and exported it to the rest of the world (MO'B).

To me, the revolting way the Fourth is "celebrated" in this day and age is the simplistic patriotic rhetoric and repugnant noise and pollution of fireworks displays that squander millions that could have been spent on social good, such as alleviating hunger or homelessness.

Midge


-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net>
To: peace <peace at lists.chambana.net>; Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Sent: Wed, Jul 4, 2018 7:01 am
Subject: [Peace] 4th of July celebration

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‘What to the American Slave is Your 4th of July’
By Frederick Douglass Jul 03, 2018
28714


Excerpt of speech by Frederick Douglass, July 5, 1852, Rochester, New York

What, to the American slave, is your 4th of July? I answer: a day that reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciations of tyrants, brass fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade, and solemnity, are, to him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy — a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices, more shocking and bloody, than are the people of these United States, at this very hour.

Go where you may, search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and despotisms of the old world, travel through South America, search out every abuse, and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with me, that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival.

Take the American slave-trade, which, we are told by the papers, is especially prosperous just now. Ex-Senator Benton tells us that the price of men was never higher than now. He mentions the fact to show that slavery is in no danger. This trade is one of the peculiarities of American institutions. It is carried on in all the large towns and cities in one-half of this confederacy; and millions are pocketed every year, by dealers in this horrid traffic. In several states, this trade is a chief source of wealth. It is called (in contradistinction to the foreign slave-trade) “the internal slave trade.” It is, probably, called so, too, in order to divert from it the horror with which the foreign slave-trade is contemplated. That trade has long since been denounced by this government, as piracy. It has been denounced with burning words, from the high places of the nation, as an execrable traffic. To arrest it, to put an end to it, this nation keeps a squadron, at immense cost, on the coast of Africa. Everywhere, in this country, it is safe to speak of this foreign slave-trade, as a most inhuman traffic, opposed alike to the laws of God and of man. The duty to extirpate and destroy it, is admitted even by our DOCTORS OF DIVINITY. In order to put an end to it, some of these last have consented that their colored brethren (nominally free) should leave this country, and establish themselves on the western coast of Africa! It is, however, a notable fact that, while so much execration is poured out by Americans upon those engaged in the foreign slave-trade, the men engaged in the slave-trade between the states pass without condemnation, and their business is deemed honorable.

Behold the practical operation of this internal slave-trade, the American slave-trade, sustained by American politics and America religion. Here you will see men and women reared like swine for the market. You know what is a swine-drover? I will show you a man-drover. They inhabit all our Southern States. They perambulate the country, and crowd the highways of the nation, with droves of human stock. You will see one of these human flesh-jobbers, armed with pistol, whip and bowie-knife, driving a company of a hundred men, women, and children, from the Potomac to the slave market at New Orleans. These wretched people are to be sold singly, or in lots, to suit purchasers. They are food for the cotton-field, and the deadly sugar-mill. Mark the sad procession, as it moves wearily along, and the inhuman wretch who drives them. Hear his savage yells and his blood-chilling oaths, as he hurries on his affrighted captives! There, see the old man, with locks thinned and gray. Cast one glance, if you please, upon that young mother, whose shoulders are bare to the scorching sun, her briny tears falling on the brow of the babe in her arms. See, too, that girl of thirteen, weeping, yes! weeping, as she thinks of the mother from whom she has been torn! The drove moves tardily. Heat and sorrow have nearly consumed their strength; suddenly you hear a quick snap, like the discharge of a rifle; the fetters clank, and the chain rattles simultaneously; your ears are saluted with a scream, that seems to have torn its way to the center of your soul! The crack you heard, was the sound of the slave-whip; the scream you heard, was from the woman you saw with the babe. Her speed had faltered under the weight of her child and her chains! that gash on her shoulder tells her to move on. Follow the drove to New Orleans. Attend the auction; see men examined like horses; see the forms of women rudely and brutally exposed to the shocking gaze of American slave-buyers. See this drove sold and separated forever; and never forget the deep, sad sobs that arose from that scattered multitude. Tell me citizens, WHERE, under the sun, you can witness a spectacle more fiendish and shocking. Yet this is but a glance at the American slave-trade, as it exists, at this moment, in the ruling part of the United States.

I was born amid such sights and scenes. To me the American slave-trade is a terrible reality. When a child, my soul was often pierced with a sense of its horrors. I lived on Philpot Street, Fell’s Point, Baltimore, and have watched from the wharves, the slave ships in the Basin, anchored from the shore, with their cargoes of human flesh, waiting for favorable winds to waft them down the Chesapeake. There was, at that time, a grand slave mart kept at the head of Pratt Street, by Austin Woldfolk. His agents were sent into every town and county in Maryland, announcing their arrival, through the papers, and on flaming “hand-bills,” headed CASH FOR NEGROES. These men were generally well dressed men, and very captivating in their manners. Ever ready to drink, to treat, and to gamble. The fate of many a slave has depended upon the turn of a single card; and many a child has been snatched from the arms of its mother by bargains arranged in a state of brutal drunkenness.

The flesh-mongers gather up their victims by dozens, and drive them, chained, to the general depot at Baltimore. When a sufficient number have been collected here, a ship is chartered, for the purpose of conveying the forlorn crew to Mobile, or to New Orleans. From the slave prison to the ship, they are usually driven in the darkness of night; for since the antislavery agitation, a certain caution is observed.

In the deep still darkness of midnight, I have been often aroused by the dead heavy footsteps, and the piteous cries of the chained gangs that passed our door. The anguish of my boyish heart was intense; and I was often consoled, when speaking to my mistress in the morning, to hear her say that the custom was very wicked; that she hated to hear the rattle of the chains, and the heart-rending cries. I was glad to find one who sympathized with me in my horror.

Fellow-citizens, this murderous traffic is, to-day, in active operation in this boasted republic. In the solitude of my spirit, I see clouds of dust raised on the highways of the South; I see the bleeding footsteps; I hear the doleful wail of fettered humanity, on the way to the slave-markets, where the victims are to be sold like horses, sheep, and swine, knocked off to the highest bidder. There I see the tenderest ties ruthlessly broken, to gratify the lust, caprice and rapacity of the buyers and sellers of men. My soul sickens at the sight . . .

But a still more inhuman, disgraceful, and scandalous state of things remains to be presented. By an act of the American Congress, not yet two years old, slavery has been nationalized in its most horrible and revolting form. By that act, Mason and Dixon’s line has been obliterated; New York has become as Virginia; and the power to hold, hunt, and sell men, women, and children as slaves remains no longer a mere state institution, but is now an institution of the whole United States. The power is co-extensive with the Star-Spangled Banner and American Christianity.

Link to full text: http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/what-to-the-slave-is-the-fourth-of-july/


_______________________________________________ Peace mailing list Peace at lists.chambana.net https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Fri Jul  6 20:59:55 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:59:55 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Fwd: Medea Benjamin speaks on Iran, Champaign, Il 6/30/18
References: <ABu89hgKxAoCuAjWP@musreb2c.nmcc.sprintspectrum.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB2382A32952C15ECBDBAE20E6A3470@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

Medea Benjamin speaking in Champaign, Il in relation to “Iran”

Sponsored by the Progressive Democrats of America
  Co-sponsored by “Just Foreign Policy”
  Co-sponsored by “The Prairie Greens”
  Co-sponsored by “Party for Socialist Liberation”

Sent from my mobile.
_____________________________________________________________

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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Fri Jul  6 21:01:49 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 21:01:49 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Fwd: Audience at the Medea Benjamin talk on Iran 6/30/18
References: <AG3Lo5vwcQUui5uAi@musreb1a.nmcc.sprintspectrum.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB23829F5862FE4B32DF0B16D2A3470@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>


Sent from my mobile.
_____________________________________________________________

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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Fri Jul  6 21:03:15 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 21:03:15 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Fwd: Audience at the Medea Benjamin talk on Iran 6/30/18
References: <AsIf7f7S1WMyD8vOd@musreb16.nmcc.sprintspectrum.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB238296F46794ED5F81EA042AA3470@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>



Sent from my mobile.
_____________________________________________________________

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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sat Jul  7 00:01:50 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 00:01:50 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Fwd: Professor Francis Boyle, introducing Medea Benjamin
References: <sd4ZOJ-Aq@musres1a.nmcc.sprintspectrum.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB238270651F4C6CCF850622BEA3460@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>


Sent from my mobile.
_____________________________________________________________

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From stuartnlevy at gmail.com  Sat Jul  7 03:00:17 2018
From: stuartnlevy at gmail.com (stuartnlevy)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2018 22:00:17 -0500
Subject: [Peace] Anti-war demonstration, 2-4pm Saturday,
 Main and Neil in downtown Champaign
Message-ID: <5b402cc1.1c69fb81.57a7f.fca6@mx.google.com>

AWARE returns to our monthly demonstration against the wars -
   Saturday, July 7th, 2-4pm   Corners of Main and Neil in downtown Champaign
Please join us if you feel moved to, and we hope you do.   We will have signs, as ever.


 -- Stuart
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From cgestabrook at gmail.com  Sat Jul  7 03:04:53 2018
From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 22:04:53 -0500
Subject: [Peace] Anti-war demonstration, 2-4pm Saturday,
 Main and Neil in downtown Champaign
In-Reply-To: <5b402cc1.1c69fb81.57a7f.fca6@mx.google.com>
References: <5b402cc1.1c69fb81.57a7f.fca6@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <4CABFC94-FA74-4E21-B27D-954598B3C996@gmail.com>

And flyers, as follows:

ISRAEL IS PUSHING THE U.S. TO GO TO WAR WITH IRAN
WE SHOULDN’T LET IT HAPPEN

Fifteen years ago the U.S. government attacked Iraq and killed a million people - on the basis of lies that Iraq had dangerous “weapons of mass destruction.” 

During the presidential campaign, Donald Trump talked of his opposition to the attack on Iraq: 
	“Look at the war in Iraq and the mess that we’re in. I would never have handled it that way ... What was the purpose of this whole thing? Hundreds and hundreds of young people killed. And what about the people coming back with no arms and legs? Not to mention the other side. All those Iraqi kids who’ve been blown to pieces. And it turns out that all of the reasons for the war were blatantly wrong. All this for nothing!”

A principal instigator of that shameful US war against Iraq was the government of Israel, who wished to remove Iraq as a regional rival in the Middle East.

Now Israel is trying to repeat that crime, urging the US to attack and kill Iranians, even as Israeli snipers shoot unarmed demonstrators - and children - in Gaza.

But the US is part of a deal with Iran and six other countries that guarantees that Iran will not develop even one nuclear weapon. (The US has thousands; Israel has at least 200.)

The ‘Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action,’ known as the Iran nuclear deal, is an international agreement reached in 2015 between Iran and the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council (China, France, Russia, United Kingdom, United States) plus Germany and the European Union. 

~

The president has announced that the US will go back on its word and violate the deal.  The Israeli government cheers, because they want the US to attack Iran, for their benefit.

To get the war started, Israel has attacked Iranian troops in Syria (who are there legally, unlike US an Israeli forces, who are there illegally). An Israeli government advisor has all but admitted that killing Iranians in Syria is designed to provoke an open war with Iran. 

We should not let the Trump administration be manipulated into war by Israel. The president and our Congressional representatives should be urged to remember the lessons of Iraq and not attack Iran - among other things a more populous and better armed country, with powerful allies, notably Russia and China. War with Iran risks a larger - even nuclear - war.

The largest anti-war demonstrations in history occurred around the world before the US attacked Iraq. As Americans we must do even more to prevent this new criminal war. If the US and Israel attack Iran, there should be general work stoppages - strikes - and street demonstrations across the US.

In the meantime, write the president and our Congressional representatives:
        President Donald Trump: <https://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/>
        Representative Rodney Davis: <https://rodneydavis.house.gov/contact/>
        Senator Tammy Duckworth: <https://www.duckworth.senate.gov/content/contact-senator>
        Senator Dick Durbin: <https://www.durbin.senate.gov/contact/email>
~
The ANTI-WAR ANTI-RACISM EFFORT of Champaign-Urbana 
on Facebook at <AWARE of Champaign Urbana Illinois> 
~ U.S. troops & weapons out of the Mideast ~ Medicare for all ~ Universal basic income ~

###

> On Jul 6, 2018, at 10:00 PM, stuartnlevy via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> 
> AWARE returns to our monthly demonstration against the wars -
> 
>    Saturday, July 7th, 2-4pm
>    Corners of Main and Neil in downtown Champaign
> 
> Please join us if you feel moved to, and we hope you do.   We will have signs, as ever.
> 
> 
> 
>  -- Stuart
> _______________________________________________
> Peace mailing list
> Peace at lists.chambana.net
> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace

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From cgestabrook at gmail.com  Fri Jul  6 23:50:48 2018
From: cgestabrook at gmail.com (C G Estabrook)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 18:50:48 -0500
Subject: [Peace] News from Neptune, July 6, 2018
Message-ID: <3CAC0B98-0C16-42B1-9569-E2AE8D7750A5@gmail.com>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SkCuxCGaEA <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SkCuxCGaEA>

A ‘Eurasia or Their Asia?’ edition.

The upcoming summit meeting in Helsinki between President Trump and Russian president Putin will highlight the political engagement of a relatively declining American empire and the growing economic integration of Eurasia, which the US ruling class has seen as the greatest threat to its profits for more than a century. 

The real fight however is within the US political establishment, which has seen Trump as a threat to its generations-long attempts to keep Russia and China down with economic pressure and threats of war.

The Australian journalist and filmmaker John Pilger wrote before the election, "The CIA has demanded Trump not be elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he not be elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he not be elected. Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Russian president Putin, then with China’s president Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world’s great power talking peace – however unlikely – would be the blackest farce were the issues not so dire…”

Of course Trump in office has been largely tamed to the neoliberal and neoconservative policies of the last administration - policies that produced more war and more inequality - but to the US ruling class, Trump is a constant threat to those policies. The hysterical and dangerous Russiagate campaign against Trump - adopted even by the new Democrat star, Ocasio-Cortez - shows the political establishment’s  need to get the presidency back into a 'safe pair of hands’ - safe for their profits.
 
The US populace on the contrary must demand that the thousand US military bases ringing Russia and China be closed (Russia has a dozen; China has one), U.S. troops (and weapons) be brought home, and social support - including free medical care, education, and a universal basic income - be provided for Americans immiserated by generations of U.S. government wars.

—CGE

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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sun Jul  8 12:45:10 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 12:45:10 +0000
Subject: [Peace] US warships sail through the straits of Taiwan and China.
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB2382B9F56C8E1B990F4D82EBA3450@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

Imagine Chinese war ships sailing through the Gulf of Mexico between Miami and Cuba:
US warships sail through the straits of Taiwan and China.
RT.com<http://rt.com>:
Two US destroyers, the USS Mustin and the USS Benfold, have passed through the narrow waterway separating mainland China from Taiwan. The maneuvers come as an unravelling trade spat ramps up tension between Washington and Beijing.

The US warships entered the Taiwan Strait on Saturday and were still in the waterway as of Saturday night, Taiwan's defense ministry reported.

Taiwan, which has grown closer to the US under the Trump administration, said that its military "is monitoring the situation in neighbouring areas, and has the confidence and abilities to maintain regional stability and defend national security."

Read more
[© Brian Snyder]Trump threatens China with more than $500bn in US trade tariffs<https://www.rt.com/business/431878-china-trump-tariffs-size/>

The US downplayed the symbolic value of the passage, the first since the USS John McCain sailed through the strait in July 2017, insisting that US warships were conducting an ordinary freedom of navigation mission.

"US Navy ships transit between the South China Sea and East China Sea via the Taiwan Strait and have done so for many years," Captain Charlie Brown said, as cited by AFP.

China has yet to react to what is seen as a rather provocative maneuver coming at a time of increasing rivalry in US-China relations.

US President Donald Trump began challenging the cornerstone of US-Sino relations - Beijing's One China policy - early on in his term. In late 2016, then-president-elect Trump drew ire from China after he held a call with Taiwan President Tsai Ing-wen, making it the first direct communication between US and Taiwanese leaders since 1979. While it was reported at the time that the breakaway with the decades-old US take on Taiwan was accidental, further developments have shown that Washington has been courting the island deliberately. In March of this year, Trump signed <https://www.rt.com/usa/421552-taiwan-travel-act-china/> the Taiwan Travel Act, paving the way for reciprocal visits between US and Taiwanese officials.

Read more
[© Aly Song]US started biggest trade war in history, China forced to retaliate – Beijing<https://www.rt.com/news/431860-us-china-trade-war-starts/>

In April, it was reported that the US State Department greenlighted sales of technology to Taiwan, needed to build submarines, defying China's vocal protests.

In June, Taiwan's defense minister announced<https://www.rt.com/news/425551-taiwan-abrams-tanks-flashpoint/> that it was considering buying American M1A2 Abrams tanks, which would beef up its line of coastal defense, aimed at deterring China's potential attempts t not have official diplomatic relations with Taiwan, it has recently unveiled<https://www.rt.com/news/429512-us-taiwan-embassy-china-trump/> a flashy new complex as the headquarters of the US-funded American Institute in Taiwan (AIT), viewed as the de-facto US Embassy on the island.

The recurrent nods to Taipei have infuriated Beijing, which views it as a part of its territory.

o reassert its sovereignty over the island.

Although the US doesThe deepening rift over Taiwan has been aggravated by the ongoing trade war, which came into full force on Saturday as the US introduced a 25 percent trade tariffs on $34 billion worth of Chinese goods. China retaliated with a tit-for-tat response. Levies on another $16 billion worth of goods are expected to kick in within next two weeks. On Friday, Trump threatened<https://www.rt.com/business/431878-china-trump-tariffs-size/> to slap China with additional tariffs on $500 billion in Chinese imports.

While the trip of the USS Mustin and the USS Benfold to China's shores was not announced in advance, Reuters reported in June that US officials were mulling sending a military vessel to the Taiwan Strait. Slamming the plans, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying at the time urged the US to avoid escalating the situation, calling the Taiwan issue "the most important and sensitive" in the bilateral relations.
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sun Jul  8 20:49:05 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 20:49:05 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Fwd: Thank you for signing our open letter to Israel
References: <5CB3D065-F459-4B1C-B97B-915995689312@illinois.edu>
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB23825B699206FAC6F9B15A69A3450@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>




[Banned]

Dear Friend,

Thank you so much for adding your name to our open letter telling Israel to stop banning peaceful advocates for Palestinian rights. Please also watch and share the video<https://www.facebook.com/MiddleEastEye/videos/1794498847282162/UzpfSTE5MjA1MjI5OTY5NDoxMDE1NjYyNjI2ODA5NDY5NQ/> of all the great work we have done to call out Israel and demand change. Together, we won’t stop until Palestine is free!

Please forward this email on to others who may want to sign.

Here's the full petition:

Israel: You Cannot Silence Global Voices for Justice!

Over the past year, you have denied entry to numerous peaceful advocates for Palestinian human rights. These have included leaders of CODEPINK, Jewish Voice for Peace, the Center for Constitutional Rights and many other organizations and individuals. Since the founding of Israel, Palestinian refugees have been the denied the right to return to their homes and lands. Every day, Palestinian Americans and people of Muslim faith are denied entry on the basis of their ethnicity/religion.

On Sunday, January 7, 2018, Israel published<https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.833502> a list of 20 international organizations, including CODEPINK, whose activists will be barred from entering the country because of their support for the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement in Palestine. The six banned U.S. groups are:

  *   American Friends Service Committee
  *   American Muslims for Palestine
  *   CODEPINK
  *   Jewish Voice for Peace
  *   National Students for Justice in Palestine
  *   US Campaign for Palestinian Rights

This is an outrageous attempt to silence global voices who work to stop the oppression and violations of international law against the people of Palestine. It is unacceptable for the US government to use US taxpayer funds to support Israel’s violence towards Palestinians. We call for an end to all racist and repressive bans, from Israel’s BDS ban to Trump’s Muslim ban.

Freedom, justice and equality for all!

Sincerely,


Your friends can sign here: http://www.codepink.org/blacklisted?recruiter_id=317739

________________________________


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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Mon Jul  9 13:43:04 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 13:43:04 +0000
Subject: [Peace] ICE- Stop Separating CU Families Rally
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB23823BFC2247D1BCA783CF93A3440@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

JUL11
ICE- Stop Separating CU Families Rally
Public
 · Hosted by Bend the Arc: CU Events<https://www.facebook.com/Bend-the-Arc-CU-Events-620986114966894/>
Interested<https://www.facebook.com/events/851532755045908/?active_tab=discussion#>
Share<https://www.facebook.com/events/851532755045908/?active_tab=discussion#>
<https://www.facebook.com/events/851532755045908/?active_tab=discussion#>

  *
clock

Wednesday, July 11 at 12 PM - 1 PM CDT
2 days from now · 64–86° Mostly Sunny<https://weather.com/redir?par=facebook_events&page=tenday&locale=en-us&id=40.11,-88.26>

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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Mon Jul  9 21:06:07 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 21:06:07 +0000
Subject: [Peace] A list to keep in mind, for future.
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB238232D9B71C54A231061279A3440@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>


”The Obama-Trump administrations' offensive against "leftist" governments in South America:


Coup in Honduras removed Zelaya

Coup in Paraguay removed Lugo

Argentina: Cristina Kirchner in court accused of bringing back “peronismo"

Brazil: Dilma Rousseff overthrown over a ridiculous pretext of budgetary procedure

Brazil: ex-president Lula in prison in attempt to destroy Party of Workers

Bolivia: Morales subjected to assassination attempts

Ecuador: after Correa the left splits. Judge now after Correa.

Venezuela: umpteen attempts at overthrow or removal of Chavez and Maduro

Now is the turn of Nicaragua: "pacific" opposition (from Gene Sharpe's book played out most recently in Ukraine, Libya, and Syria) sowing atrocious violence, blamed on the Ortega government."

List compiled by Luciana Boehne
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 10 21:35:43 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 21:35:43 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Fwd: Medea Benjamin Event VDO
References: <CACdk1fQ7=+-=dk6=5pQomUajWs3BpvP0HEamtMteQ9u__w_anw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB2382D4FA7894C2486D739F14A35B0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUc2IELSXDk&feature=youtu.be


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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 10 21:45:42 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 21:45:42 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Fwd: Anti-ICE rally at Champaign Courthouse on Wednesday
	plus
References: <CADL4Vu59kLepYdtuz9pdgCbRL0LxnF-FC=YcdqUVStx9PZFBBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB2382A467A78C6AF0572EB020A35B0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>



From: Brian Dolinar
Subject: Anti-ICE rally at Champaign Courthouse on Wednesday
Date: July 10, 2018 at 13:34:46 PDT

Hey all,

Want to let you know about an anti-ICE rally at the Champaign County courthouse on Wednesday at noon organized by Bend the Arc.

https://www.facebook.com/events/1970704189636031/

We're also holding an Abolish ICE! Community Forum at IMC on Sunday at 1:30pm, come help us strategize on the way forward!

https://www.facebook.com/events/1970704189636031/

#chingalamigra

BD
--
Brian Dolinar, Ph.D.
briandolinar.com<http://briandolinar.com/>

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From susanroseparenti at gmail.com  Wed Jul 11 14:34:26 2018
From: susanroseparenti at gmail.com (Susan Parenti)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 09:34:26 -0500
Subject: [Peace] Tonight, 5:30-7:30---Open Scene Open Mic Free BBQ!
Message-ID: <CAKfUjSFdBMwVuenPR94-AU4N8qiaxSp9t8d57ejNFq98kaXpJQ@mail.gmail.com>

[image: IMC_Open_Scene_Open_Mic_Shaya_.png]
Open Scene Open Mic!!  Hosted by Shaya Robinson July 11, 5:30-7:30pm

Tonight, join the Urbana Public Arts Program, Urbana-Champaign Independent
Media Center, and Cunningham Township for the first installment of Open
Scene Open Mic
<https://www.ucimc.org/r?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fevents%2F632856930411584%2F%3Factive_tab%3Dabout&e=92940306fb8daf8612356e660b5b62e8&utm_source=ucimc&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=open_scene_open_mic&n=1>,
a downtown showcase of poetry, spoken word, music, and artistic expression
designed to promote community, creativity, and connection! This week’s open
mic is hosted by Shaya Robinson, host of SPEAK Café and will feature a
musical performance from Sororise! It will be held at Cunningham Township
Community Garden (205 W. Green St, Urbana, IL. 61801
<https://maps.google.com/?q=205+W.+Green+St,+Urbana,+IL.+61801&entry=gmail&source=g>
). Firing up the BBQ! Bring a dish, bring a poem, bring a friend, or just
bring yourself


-- 
*Susan Parenti*
*Educational Coordinator *

*The School for Designing a Society *www.designingasociety.net

*Like us on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/designasociety>!*
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 14 01:59:52 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 01:59:52 +0000
Subject: [Peace] The Legacy of the 26th of July Movement
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB2382ED3A7909D891A368E001A35F0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>


WED, JUL 18 AT 7 PM CDT
The Legacy of the 26th of July Movement
Urbana-Champaign Independent Media Center · Urbana, IL

The PSL-CU branch, “Party for Socialist Liberation," will be reviewing the history of the Cuban revolution, its notable figures and reforms instituted by the 26th of July Movement, and a YouTube video analysis by 2016 PSL Presidential Candidate Gloria La Riva.

A group discussion will follow the presentation.

On July 26, 1953, a group of about 135 rebels led by Fidel Castro attacked the Moncada Barracks during the violent regime of U.S.-backed dictator Fulgencio Batista. This date was memorialized after working-class Cubans had rallied to implement socialist reforms following their revolutionary victory.

John Vail wrote in his book, “Fidel Castro”, that the guerrillas’ actions received robust loyalty from working-class Cubans.

“The guerrillas had a dramatic impact on the lives of the campesinos. They pressured sugar mill owners to increase wages; those who refused would be given 24 hours in which they could either reconsider or watch their mills burn to the ground. The rebels began to reeducate illiterate campesinos, and their hospital treated not only their own wounded, but peasant families as well.”




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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 15 13:00:52 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 13:00:52 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Can Trump, Israel,
	and Gulf Allies Get Putin to Turn On Iran?
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB238293D40DD91640B3FD345AA35E0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

A very informative interview by Aaron Mate with Prof. Rami Khouri in relation to Russia, Iran, Israel and the US. Aaron as usual digs to the heart of the matter.

1) It supports my opinion that Russia will not betray Iran.

2) It supports the opinion that Obama’s nuclear deal though managed with diplomacy vs bullying, as we see today, and  certainly more effective, nonetheless, motivations are always to be questioned. Trita Parsi is quoted on this issue.

3) I do disagree with Prof. Rami, when he claims the US war and interventions have never achieved their goals, dating back to the Vietnam war. They only kill, destroy, and create terrible agonies, not his exact words. However, one needs to question US goals, I believe they have attained exactly that which they sought to gain, death, destruction and chaos, all which lead to “profits and control” by the ruling elites.

4) An important point is made: that one should never take anything the American press has to say seriously.

And, sadly the world doesn’t care about the mass murders of millions, though Prof. Rami does not really give a reason, that most of us know well. It’s due to mainstream media control and propagandizing.

https://therealnews.com/stories/can-trump-israel-and-gulf-allies-get-putin-to-turn-on-iran
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From susanroseparenti at gmail.com  Mon Jul 16 21:50:27 2018
From: susanroseparenti at gmail.com (Susan Parenti)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 16:50:27 -0500
Subject: [Peace] do you have moving boxes we could use?
Message-ID: <CAKfUjSEbX0-BmNGLNpbFLS8uhxYoJoN1aF-30eeYwQX5kY7XYA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi friends---We're helping a friend move, and are looking for lots of heavy
duty moving boxes and tape. Do you have any?

thanks
217-344-1439

-- 
*Susan Parenti*
*Educational Coordinator *

*The School for Designing a Society *www.designingasociety.net

*Like us on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/designasociety>!*
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From bjornsona at ameritech.net  Tue Jul 17 06:10:02 2018
From: bjornsona at ameritech.net (bjornsona at ameritech.net)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 01:10:02 -0500
Subject: [Peace] do you have moving boxes we could use?
Message-ID: <9nkau75d6lgcgn00sia1t8ir.1531807783474@email.lge.com>

I have many if you still need boxes
Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
------ Original message------From: Susan Parenti via PeaceDate: Tue, Jul 17, 2018 12:39 AMTo: undisclosed-recipients:;Cc: Subject:[Peace] do you have moving boxes we could use?
Hi friends---We're helping a friend move, and are looking for lots of heavy duty moving boxes and tape. Do you have any?
thanks217-344-1439

-- 
Susan Parenti
Educational Coordinator 

The School for Designing a Society www.designingasociety.net

Like us on Facebook!


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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 17 15:12:58 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 15:12:58 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Those evil Russians
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB23827337B62B7103EF45E16EA35C0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

Vince Emanuele:


The Russians didn't gut, attack and destroy unions in the U.S. The Russians aren't responsible for NAFTA, TPP, GATT, outsourcing, corporate welfare, etc. The Russians didn't deregulate the financial industry, allowing Wall Street to destroy our economy and create unprecedented wealth/income inequality. The Russians aren't killing young black kids in the streets. The Russians didn't militarize the police. The Russians didn't create the War on Drugs. The Russians didn't create the School-to-Prison pipeline. The Russians aren't responsible for slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, or the Prison Industrial Complex. The Russians didn't invade Iraq and Afghanistan, spending $3.6 trillion. The Russians didn't poison kids in Flint or East Chicago. The Russians didn't divest in our nation's infrastructure.

The Russians didn't nominate Hillary Clinton, the second most loathed politician in modern history. The Russians didn't subsidize the U.S. fossil fuel industry, allowing the most destructive industries on the planet to kill the living world with no consequences. The Russians didn't destroy the public school system in the U.S., allowing charter schools to privatize public goods. The Russians didn't create our homeless population or shut down our mental health facilities. The Russians didn't enact the Patriot Act, stripping our civil liberties and creating institutions like ICE. The Russians didn't create our immigration crisis, nor are they responsible for putting kids in cages throughout the U.S.

The Russians didn't clear cut old growth forests in the Pacific Northwest, nor did they dam our rivers and kill the salmon. The Russians didn't strip American women of their reproductive rights, or allow the NRA to control our legislative bodies. The Russians didn't allow media corporations to consolidate into five companies that control everything we see, read, or hear. The Russians didn't overthrow democratically elected governments throughout the Western Hemisphere. The Russians didn't allow the pharmaceutical industry to create a nation of addicts. And the Russians aren't allowing U.S. veterans to die by the thousands waiting for treatment.

You must be thinking of the Democrats and Republicans....
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From davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net  Tue Jul 17 15:50:29 2018
From: davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net (David Johnson)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:50:29 -0500
Subject: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Those evil Russians
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR08MB23827337B62B7103EF45E16EA35C0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MWHPR08MB23827337B62B7103EF45E16EA35C0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <005a01d41de5$e3621800$aa264800$@comcast.net>

Very well said Karen.

 

I can only add to your list - The Russians aren't preventing the American
people from having ; universal PUBLIC healthcare, free post high school
education, $ 15 minimum wage, clean renewable energy, public control of our
water systems and utilities as well as secure retirement pensions. The ones
preventing all of the above are the Democrats and the Republicans as you so
accurately said.

 

David J.

 

From: Peace-discuss [mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On
Behalf Of Karen Aram via Peace-discuss
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 10:13 AM
To: Peace Discuss; peace
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Those evil Russians

 

Vince Emanuele:

 

The Russians didn't gut, attack and destroy unions in the U.S. The Russians
aren't responsible for NAFTA, TPP, GATT, outsourcing, corporate welfare,
etc. The Russians didn't deregulate the financial industry, allowing Wall
Street to destroy our economy and create unprecedented wealth/income
inequality. The Russians aren't killing young black kids in the streets. The
Russians didn't militarize the police. The Russians didn't create the War on
Drugs. The Russians didn't create the School-to-Prison pipeline. The
Russians aren't responsible for slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, or the Prison
Industrial Complex. The Russians didn't invade Iraq and Afghanistan,
spending $3.6 trillion. The Russians didn't poison kids in Flint or East
Chicago. The Russians didn't divest in our nation's infrastructure.

The Russians didn't nominate Hillary Clinton, the second most loathed
politician in modern history. The Russians didn't subsidize the U.S. fossil
fuel industry, allowing the most destructive industries on the planet to
kill the living world with no consequences. The Russians didn't destroy the
public school system in the U.S., allowing charter schools to privatize
public goods. The Russians didn't create our homeless population or shut
down our mental health facilities. The Russians didn't enact the Patriot
Act, stripping our civil liberties and creating institutions like ICE. The
Russians didn't create our immigration crisis, nor are they responsible for
putting kids in cages throughout the U.S.

The Russians didn't clear cut old growth forests in the Pacific Northwest,
nor did they dam our rivers and kill the salmon. The Russians didn't strip
American women of their reproductive rights, or allow the NRA to control our
legislative bodies. The Russians didn't allow media corporations to
consolidate into five companies that control everything we see, read, or
hear. The Russians didn't overthrow democratically elected governments
throughout the Western Hemisphere. The Russians didn't allow the
pharmaceutical industry to create a nation of addicts. And the Russians
aren't allowing U.S. veterans to die by the thousands waiting for treatment.

You must be thinking of the Democrats and Republicans....

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From susanroseparenti at gmail.com  Fri Jul 27 20:02:29 2018
From: susanroseparenti at gmail.com (Susan Parenti)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 15:02:29 -0500
Subject: [Peace] debut of Immigration Puppet Theater tomorrow, Sat,
 9:15 am at Urbana Farmer's market
Message-ID: <CAKfUjSGdDPYpwgTUHfeajGriEkQWfUUTgTVf0Qceu7305A3tAw@mail.gmail.com>

<https://www.facebook.com/susan.parenti.5/posts/1758847120819692>
<https://www.facebook.com/susan.parenti.5/posts/1758847120819692?notif_id=1532711277920231&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic#>Hi
friends---Tomorrow, Saturday, we're performing the debut of Immigration
Puppet Show at the Urbana Farmer's Market 9-10:30am, in the performance
spot by Pandamonium (I think that's a donut vending truck).

Stuart Levy, Karen Medina, Mark Enslin, Marina Manetti and I will work the
puppets.

Please come and support us.

There will be a show at 9:15am followed by a discussion, and at 10am
followed by a discussion. ICE, Sanctuary City status, why so many
immigrants can't get legal status, parallels to Nazi-ism are the subject of
this puppet show.

If you're interested in performing puppets with us in the future, and/or
writing skits about immigration, please let me/us know. We hope to continue
this throughout the summer.





-- 
*Susan Parenti*
*Educational Coordinator *

*The School for Designing a Society *www.designingasociety.net

*Like us on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/designasociety>!*
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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 28 00:31:13 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 00:31:13 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Fwd: Trump is a Tool of the Deep State Not a Victim/It's
 important that we recognize, the puppet masters, behind the scenes.
References: <MWHPR08MB23822F672AA36151976DBDCEA3290@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB23828A949838E42C677A1C71A3290@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>




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JULY 27, 2018
Trump is a Tool of the Deep State Not a Victim<https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/07/27/trump-is-a-tool-of-the-deep-state-not-a-victim/>
by JOHN W. WHITEHEAD<https://www.counterpunch.org/author/johnwhite1124/>
Facebook<https://www.counterpunch.org/#facebook>Twitter<https://www.counterpunch.org/#twitter>Google+<https://www.counterpunch.org/#google_plus>Reddit<https://www.counterpunch.org/#reddit>Email<https://www.counterpunch.org/#email>[https://uziiw38pmyg1ai60732c4011-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/dropzone/2017/09/atoa-print-icon.png]<https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/07/27/trump-is-a-tool-of-the-deep-state-not-a-victim/print/>

“Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people.<http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/tr-progressive/?flavour=mobile>”

― Theodore Roosevelt

There are those who would have you believe that President Trump is an unwitting victim of the Deep State<https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/16/opinions/trump-ig-report-deep-state-conspiracy-opinion-zelizer/index.html>.

And then there are those who insist that the Deep State is a figment of a conspiratorial mind<https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/03/steve-bannon-deep-state-214935>.

Don’t believe it.

The Deep State—a.k.a. the police state, a.k.a. the military industrial complex, a.k.a. the surveillance state complex—does indeed exist and Trump, far from being its sworn enemy, is its latest tool.

When in doubt, follow the money trail.

It always points the way.

Every successive president starting with Franklin D. Roosevelt has been bought—lock, stock and barrel—and made to dance to the tune of the Deep State.

Even Dwight D. Eisenhower, the retired five-star Army general-turned-president who warned against the disastrous rise of misplaced power by the military industrial complex<http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html> was complicit in contributing to the build-up of the military’s role in dictating national and international policy.

Enter Donald Trump, the candidate who swore to drain the swamp<https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2017/04/05/trump-promised-drain-swamp-how-that-going/2BBNbWU1Xd5ExA7u83Vh3I/story.html> in Washington DC.

Instead of putting an end to the corruption, however, Trump has paved the way for lobbyists, corporations, the military industrial complex, and the rest of the Deep State<http://www.newsweek.com/2017/02/17/donald-trump-drain-swamp-lobbyists-553809.html> (also referred to as “The 7th Floor Group”<http://www.cnbc.com/2016/10/17/fbi-releases-100-new-pages-on-clinton-email-probe.html>) to feast on the carcass of the dying American republic.

Apart from tweets that are little more than sound and fury, Trump is not a man who is raging against the machine.

He is too much a part of the machine.

Indeed, as Reuters reports, “[President] Trump has gone further than any of his predecessors to act as a salesman for the U.S. defense industry<https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-arms-insight/arming-the-world-inside-trumps-buy-american-drive-to-expand-weapons-exports-idUSKBN1HO2PT>.”

Despite claims to the contrary, Trump is not advocating for peace with Russia, or North Korea or any other nation.

He is selling us out to the war hawks.

The latest squawk over Iran<https://www.npr.org/2018/07/23/631454795/trump-to-irans-president-never-ever-threaten-the-u-s-again> is just more of the same chest-thumping, sleight-of-hand intended to play into the hands of a salivating military industrial complex for whom war is merely a means to a larger profit margin.

The war hawks have no beef with Trump.

Why should they? He’s giving them exactly what they want.

With Trump’s blessing, the military’s budget—with its trillion dollar wars, its $125 billion in administrative waste<https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/pentagon-buries-evidence-of-125-billion-in-bureaucratic-waste/2016/12/05/e0668c76-9af6-11e6-a0ed-ab0774c1eaa5_story.html>, and its contractor-driven price gouging<http://thehill.com/policy/defense/334566-pentagons-overpriced-fuel-leads-to-slush-fund-allegations-report> that hits the American taxpayer where it hurts the most—will continue to grow.

Borrowing a leaf from his buddies in China, Russia and North Korea, Trump is even planning a $12 million military parade<https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/18/politics/trump-military-parade-cost/index.html> on November 10 to showcase the nation’s military might.

Follow the money.

It always points the way.

The corporations are getting richer, average Americans are getting poorer, the military is getting more militaristic, America’s endless wars are getting more endless, and the prospect of peace grows ever dimmer.

This is exactly how you keep the Deep State in power.

We’ve been losing our freedoms so incrementally for so long—sold to us in the name of national security and global peace, maintained by way of martial law disguised as law and order, and enforced by a standing army of militarized police and a political elite determined to maintain their powers at all costs—that it’s hard to pinpoint exactly when it all started going downhill, but we’re certainly on that downward trajectory now, and things are moving fast.

The “government of the people, by the people, for the people” has perished.

In its place is a shadow government, a corporatized, militarized, entrenched bureaucracy that is fully operational and staffed by unelected officials who are, in essence, running the country and calling the shots in Washington DC, no matter who sits in the White House.

Mind you, by “government,” I’m not referring to the highly partisan, two-party bureaucracy of the Republicans and Democrats.

Rather, I’m referring to “government” with a capital “G,” the entrenched Deep State that is unaffected by elections, unaltered by populist movements, and has set itself beyond the reach of the law.

This is the hidden face of a government that has no respect for the freedom of its citizenry.

This shadow government<http://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/anatomy-of-the-deep-state/>, which “operates according to its own compass heading regardless of who is formally in power,” makes a mockery of elections and the entire concept of a representative government.

So how do you recognize the Deep State when it rears its ugly head?

It’s the militarized police, which have joined forces with state and federal law enforcement agencies in order to establish themselves as a standing army.

It’s the fusion centers and spy agencies that have created a surveillance state and turned all of us into suspects.

It’s the courthouses and prisons that have allowed corporate profits to take precedence over due process and justice.

It’s the military empire with its private contractors and defense industry that is bankrupting the nation.

It’s the private sector with its 854,000 contract personnel<http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/articles/> with top-secret clearances, “a number greater than that of top-secret-cleared civilian employees of the government.”

It’s what former congressional staffer Mike Lofgren refers to as “a hybrid of national security and law enforcement agencies<http://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/anatomy-of-the-deep-state/>”: the Department of Defense, the State Department, Homeland Security, the CIA, the Justice Department, the Treasury, the Executive Office of the President via the National Security Council, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, a handful of vital federal trial courts, and members of the defense and intelligence committees.

It’s every facet of a government that is no longer friendly to freedom and is working overtime to trample the Constitution underfoot and render the citizenry powerless in the face of the government’s power grabs, corruption and abusive tactics.

These are the key players that drive the shadow government.

This is the hidden face of the American police state.

Just consider some of the key programs and policies—manifestations of the police state complex—that continue to be advanced by the shadow government with the full support of its latest accomplice in the White House:

Domestic surveillance

The National Security Agency (NSA), with its $10.8 billion black ops annual budget, continues to spy on every person in the United States who uses a computer or phone. Yet the government does not operate alone. It cannot. It requires an accomplice. Thus, the increasingly complex security needs of our massive federal government, especially in the areas of defense, surveillance and data management, have been met within the corporate sector, which has shown itself to be a powerful ally that both depends on and feeds the growth of governmental bureaucracy. For instance, through its vast telecommunications network that crisscrosses the globe, AT&T provides the U.S. government with the complex infrastructure it needs for its mass surveillance programs.

On any given day, whether you’re walking through a store, driving your car, checking email, or talking to friends and family on the phone, you can be sure that some government agency, whether the NSA or some other entity, is listening in and tracking your behavior. Local police have been outfitted with a litany of surveillance gear, from license plate readers and cell phone tracking devices to biometric data recorders. Technology now makes it possible for the police to scan passersby in order to detect the contents of their pockets, purses, briefcases, etc. Full-body scanners, which perform virtual strip-searches of Americans traveling by plane, have gone mobile, with roving police vans that peer into vehicles and buildings alike—including homes. Coupled with the nation’s growing network of real-time surveillance cameras and facial recognition software, soon there really will be nowhere to run and nowhere to hide.

Global spying

The NSA’s massive surveillance network, what the Washington Post refers to as a $500 billion “espionage empire<http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/black-budget-summary-details-us-spy-networks-successes-failures-and-objectives/2013/08/29/7e57bb78-10ab-11e3-8cdd-bcdc09410972_story.html>,” is still spanning the globe and targeting every single person on the planet who uses a phone or a computer. The NSA’s Echelon program<http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/05/cyber/articles/27network.html> intercepts and analyzes virtually every phone call, fax and email message sent anywhere in the world. In addition to carrying out domestic surveillance on peaceful political groups<http://fly.hiwaay.net/~pspoole/echelon.html> such as Amnesty International, Greenpeace and several religious groups, Echelon has also been a keystone in the government’s attempts at political and corporate espionage<http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//NONSGML+REPORT+A5-2001-0264+0+DOC+PDF+V0//EN&language=EN>.

Roving TSA searches

The American taxpayer is still getting ripped off by government agencies in the dubious name of national security. One of the greatest culprits when it comes to swindling taxpayers has been the Transportation Security Administration (TSA), with its questionable deployment of and complete mismanagement of millions of dollars’ worth of airport full-body X-ray scanners, punitive patdowns by TSA agents and thefts of travelers’ valuables. Considered essential to national security, TSA programs will continue in airports and at transportation hubs around the country.

USA Patriot Act, NDAA

America’s so-called war on terror, which it has relentlessly pursued since 9/11, continues to chip away at our freedoms, unravel our Constitution and transform our nation into a battlefield, thanks in large part to such subversive legislation as the USA Patriot Act and National Defense Authorization Act. These laws completely circumvent the rule of law and the rights of American citizens. In so doing, they re-orient our legal landscape in such a way as to ensure that martial law, rather than the U.S. Constitution, is the map by which we navigate life in the United States. These laws will continue to be enforced no matter who gets elected.

Militarized police state

Thanks to federal grant programs allowing the Pentagon to transfer surplus military supplies and weapons to local law enforcement agencies without charge, police forces continue to be transformed from peace officers into heavily armed extensions of the military, complete with jackboots, helmets, shields, batons, pepper-spray, stun guns, assault rifles, body armor, miniature tanks and weaponized drones. Having been given the green light to probe, poke, pinch, taser, search, seize, strip and generally manhandle anyone they see fit in almost any circumstance, all with the general blessing of the courts, America’s law enforcement officials, no longer mere servants of the people entrusted with keeping the peace, continue to keep the masses corralled, controlled, and treated like suspects and enemies rather than citizens.

SWAT team raids

With more than 80,000 SWAT team raids carried out every year on unsuspecting Americans by local police for relatively routine police matters and federal agencies laying claim to their own law enforcement divisions, the incidence of botched raids and related casualties continues to rise. Nationwide, SWAT teams continue to be employed to address an astonishingly trivial array of criminal activity or mere community nuisances including angry dogs, domestic disputes, improper paperwork filed by an orchid farmer, and misdemeanor marijuana possession.

Domestic drones

The domestic use of drones has continued unabated. As mandated by Congress, there will be 30,000 drones crisscrossing the skies of America by 2020, all part of an industry that could be worth as much as $30 billion per year. These machines, which will be equipped with weapons, will be able to record all activities, using video feeds, heat sensors and radar. An Inspector General report revealed that the Dept. of Justice has already spent nearly $4 million on drones domestically, largely for use by the FBI<http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregorymcneal/2013/09/28/doj-report-reveals-details-of-domestic-drone-usage/>, with grants for another $1.26 million<http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20130927/NEWS03/309279917/1066> so police departments and nonprofits can acquire their own drones.

School-to-prison pipeline

The paradigm of abject compliance to the state continues to be taught by example in the schools, through school lockdowns where police and drug-sniffing dogs enter the classroom, and zero tolerance policies that punish all offenses equally and result in young people being expelled for childish behavior. School districts continue to team up with law enforcement to create a “schoolhouse to jailhouse track” by imposing a “double dose” of punishment: suspension or expulsion from school, accompanied by an arrest by the police and a trip to juvenile court.

Overcriminalization

The government bureaucracy continues to churn out laws, statutes, codes and regulations that reinforce its powers and value systems and those of the police state and its corporate allies, rendering the rest of us petty criminals. The average American now unknowingly commits three felonies a day, thanks to this overabundance of vague laws that render otherwise innocent activity illegal. Consequently, small farmers who dare to make unpasteurized goat cheese and share it with members of their community continue to have their farms raided.

Privatized Prisons

States continue to outsource prisons to private corporations, resulting in a cash cow whereby mega-corporations imprison Americans in private prisons in order to make a profit. In exchange for corporations buying and managing public prisons across the country at a supposed savings to the states, the states have to agree to maintain a 90% occupancy rate in the privately run prisons for at least 20 years.

Endless wars

America’s expanding military empire is continuing to bleed the country dry at a rate of more than $15 billion a month (or $20 million an hour). The Pentagon spends more on war than all 50 states combined spend on health, education, welfare, and safety. Yet what most Americans fail to recognize is that these ongoing wars have little to do with keeping the country safe and everything to do with enriching the military industrial complex at taxpayer expense.

Are you getting the message yet?

The current president, much like the previous president and his predecessors, is little more than a figurehead, a puppet to entertain and distract the populace from what’s really going on.

As Lofgren reveals, this state within a state, “concealed behind the one that is visible at either end of Pennsylvania Avenue<http://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/anatomy-of-the-deep-state/>,” is a “hybrid entity of public and private institutions ruling the country according to consistent patterns in season and out, connected to, but only intermittently controlled by, the visible state whose leaders we choose.”

The Deep State not only holds the nation’s capital in thrall, but it also controls Wall Street<http://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/anatomy-of-the-deep-state/> (“which supplies the cash that keeps the political machine quiescent and operating as a diversionary marionette theater”) and Silicon Valley.

This is fascism in its most covert form, hiding behind public agencies and private companies<http://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/anatomy-of-the-deep-state/> to carry out its dirty deeds.

It is a marriage<http://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/anatomy-of-the-deep-state/> between government bureaucrats and corporate fat cats.

As Lofgren concludes:

[T]he Deep State is so heavily entrenched, so well protected by surveillance, firepower, money and its ability to co-opt resistance that it is almost impervious to change<http://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/anatomy-of-the-deep-state/>… If there is anything the Deep State requires it is silent, uninterrupted cash flow and the confidence that things will go on as they have in the past. It is even willing to tolerate a degree of gridlock: Partisan mud wrestling over cultural issues may be a useful distraction from its agenda.

So let’s have no more of this caterwauling about Trump being victimized by the Deep State.

There is no conspiracy to do away with Trump.

He is doing too good a job at sowing division, creating distractions that keep Americans oblivious to the government’s ongoing power grabs, and helping to advance the profit-driven agenda of the Deep State.

Trump is no victim.

If you want to talk about the true victims of the Deep State, let’s talk about the men and women and children being shot and killed and brutalized and spied on and muzzled and jailed and robbed at gunpoint and treated as if they have no rights.

Let’s talk about the sorry state of our freedoms, which have continued their downward trajectory with no let-up.

Let’s talk about the fact that constitutional ignorance, corruption, ineptitude and cruelty are not unique to the Trump Administration. They have been hallmarks of the American police state.

So the next time you find yourselves mesmerized by Donald Trump’s latest tweets or theatrics or drawn into a politicized debate over the machinations of Congress, the president or the judiciary, remember: as I make clear in my book A Government of Wolves: The Emerging American Police State<https://www.amazon.com/Government-Wolves-Emerging-American-Police/dp/1590794664/counterpunchmaga>, it’s all intended to distract you from the fact that you have no authority and no rights in the face of the shadow government no matter who is in office.

As long as government officials—elected and unelected alike—are allowed to operate beyond the reach of the Constitution, the courts and the citizenry, the threat to our freedoms remains undiminished.


Join the debate on Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/CounterPunch-official-172470146144666/>
More articles by:JOHN W. WHITEHEAD<https://www.counterpunch.org/author/johnwhite1124/>

John W. Whitehead is the president of The Rutherford Institute and author of Battlefield America: The War on the American People<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1590793099/counterpunchmaga>.


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From karenaram at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 28 14:52:42 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 14:52:42 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Learn more about Nicaragua
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB2382502A3E4E3965C4DCDABFA3290@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

The PSL “Peoples Socialist Liberation” will be presenting a talk on Nicaragua, the inside story.  

This Wednesday, August 1st.
 at 7:00PM.

The IMC

In the Family Room, downstairs.

From karenaram at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 30 12:22:18 2018
From: karenaram at hotmail.com (Karen Aram)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 12:22:18 +0000
Subject: [Peace] Talk on Nicaragua
Message-ID: <MWHPR08MB2382C0B3A08E8101ED2C9EFCA32F0@MWHPR08MB2382.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

 PSL “The Party for Socialism and Liberation” will be presenting a talk on Nicaragua.

This Wednesday, August 1st.
7:00PM.

At the IMC/Urbana Illinois

In the Family Room, downstairs.
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From naiman.uiuc at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 23:29:32 2018
From: naiman.uiuc at gmail.com (Robert Naiman)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 18:29:32 -0500
Subject: [Peace] Slating mtg for CB 10 Thu. 5 pm;
	Nursing Home sale grievances may be addressed
Message-ID: <CALMNhNS2awscC-LdGUvRQLJQxp1eJYHb2peLKb5WJ1oemu30TQ@mail.gmail.com>

I heard that some people might show up to this meeting who are aggrieved
about the votes of some Democrats on the County Board to sell the Champaign
County Nursing Home.

I didn't organize it. I'm not responsible for it. I'm not advocating for
it. I'm just telling you what I heard. I'm just sharing information.

As far as I know, this is a public meeting, subject to the legal
requirements of the Illinois Open Meetings Act. But I'm not an expert on
that.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Maryam Ar-Raheem
Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 6:49 PM
Subject: Slating for CB 10

Dear Precinct Committee Persons,

In response to my email inquiry, the majority of precinct committee persons
in County Board District 10 can meet on Thursday, August 2nd.

A meeting to slate Chris Stohr as the candidate for County Board District
10 on the November 2018 ballot is at 5 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2018. The
meeting will be held in the Satterthwaite conference room on the lower
level of the Urbana Free Library, 205 W. Green St, Urbana
<https://maps.google.com/?q=205+W.+Green+St,+Urbana&entry=gmail&source=g>.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation. See you on Thursday.


Maryam Ar-Raheem
Chair, CCDCC
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