[Peace] [Peace-discuss] "...thinking makes it so"

Wed Jul 4 14:53:48 UTC 2018

Anti-fa does support violence, in that its “planned fight back” its “planned defensive attacks,” as if military or police. It creates chaos, and chaos leads to violence and disintegration of the left, thus with chaos the government, and ruling elite wins.  There are historical examples proving this.

 One does not have to be a pacifist, one does not need to oppose uprisings, but chaos, leads to violence and disintegration of the left.

No movement/revolution using violence has ever succeeded. MLK knew this, perhaps he couldn’t have accomplished what he did without the threat of Malcolm X, but Malcolm would never have been able to accomplish what MLK did.

Only civil resistance succeeds.

On Jul 4, 2018, at 06:53, Harry Mickalide via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:

It's not that Antifa doesn't expect punishment. It's that they risk punishment in order to defend us and fight fascism.

In fact, if we're going to compare the difference between thought and action, we here on the Internet are thinking about creating a just world, while people in Antifa are in the streets actually doing it.

Here is an article where multiple people thank Antifa for defending them from Nazis.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 11:06 PM, David Green via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
I'm not sure of the precise origin of the notion of "hate crimes" in the law in our own country, if there is such an origin; but my sense--perhaps more directly applicable to European and Canadian laws that directly monitor speech--has long been that what Norman Finkelstein has called the "Holocaust Industry" contributed to the development of such a notion, by equating the actuality of the Holocaust, anti-semitic beliefs, and criticism of Israel's very real crimes.

DG

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 9:47 PM C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com<mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com>> wrote:
It might mean
(a) opinion constitutes moral worth - "it’s good/evil if you think it is”; or
(b) opinion misinterprets moral worth - "it’s good, but you mistakenly think it evil.”

HAMLET, 2.2=================================================
• Hamlet. ... What news ?
• Rosencrantz. None, my lord, but that the world's grown honest.
• Hamlet. Then is doomsday near! But your news is not true. Let me
question more in particular. What have you, my good friends,
deserved at the hands of Fortune that she sends you to prison
hither?
• Guildenstern. Prison, my lord?
• Hamlet. Denmark's a prison.
• Rosencrantz. Then is the world one.
• Hamlet. A goodly one; in which there are many confines, wards, and
dungeons, Denmark being one o' th' worst.
• Rosencrantz. We think not so, my lord.
• Hamlet. Why, then 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good
or bad but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison.
• Rosencrantz. Why, then your ambition makes it one. 'Tis too narrow for your
mind.
• Hamlet. O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a
king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams.
• Guildenstern. Which dreams indeed are ambition; for the very substance of
the ambitious is merely the shadow of a dream.
• Hamlet. A dream itself is but a shadow.
• Rosencrantz. Truly, and I hold ambition of so airy and light a quality that
it is but a shadow's shadow.
• Hamlet. Then are our beggars bodies, and our monarchs and outstretch'd
heroes the beggars' shadows. Shall we to th' court? for, by my
fay, I cannot reason.
=========================================================

On Jul 3, 2018, at 9:08 PM, David Green via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:

How is the line from Hamlet misunderstood?

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 6:57 PM C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net<mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
One of the most misunderstood lines in Shakespeare is Hamlet’s “...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”

Here a FOA (Friend of AWARE) brilliantly applies it to current US politics (h/t K. Aram):

"Today I had two discussions, one with people advocating hate crime laws, and another with people defending Antifa, and it occurred to me that they were pretty much the same people.

"Hate crime laws are actually thought crime laws, in that they take what is already a crime, and add years to the sentence if the perp was thinking bad thoughts when they committed the crime.

"Antifas are people who commit crimes, and expect to go unpunished at all, because they were thinking good thoughts when they committed the crime.

"This is magical thinking, the idea that thoughts are more important than reality. This is very American, since we have had multiple Think Yourself Rich fads, from Napoleon Hill to Oprah. And we are earnestly told that having a president who 'believes' in climate change is more important than actual policy changes. And, of course, the latest fad in which you can think yourself right into the opposite sex. (And not in the old 'think yourself irresistible' way.)

"I think I'll just be over here, in the corner, visualizing peace.” --Paula Densnow

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