[Peace] [Peace-discuss] "...thinking makes it so"

Wed Jul 4 23:51:15 UTC 2018

Wason, you're so full of ****. I haven't forgotten when you (obliquely, I'll admit, but nevertheless) threatened me and my kids in an exchange on the WEFT listservs when it was going through its turmoil. [For the record, that chaos was caused entirely by non-violent means...fractures on the left are mostly caused by moles, has been my observation] 

While it is ballsy that you hover on these "peace" and "peace-discuss" lists, it is unfortunate that anyone on those lists gives you any credence. 

This is an old email that I seldom use, but when I saw this-- oh brother. I will now take the time to unsubscribe.

_Mark 

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 7/4/18, John W. via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] "...thinking makes it so"
 To: "Karen Aram" <karenaram at hotmail.com>
 Cc: "peace" <peace at lists.chambana.net>, "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
 Date: Wednesday, July 4, 2018, 1:04 PM

 I would add that Malcolm X, whom we
 thought of and still think of today as being much more
 "militant" than MLK, really didn't do anything
 more than preach the necessity, at times, of Black
 self-defense.  He didn't foment violence for the sake
 of disruption.  Nor, I might add further, did the Black
 Panthers or Stokely Carmichael or H. Rap Brown or any of the
 other more "militant" Black leaders of the
 time.
 John Wason
 again

 On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 2:58
 PM, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
 wrote:
 If this was on
 Facebook I would "Like" it, Karen.  Absolutely
 right.
 John
 Wason

 On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 9:53
 AM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net>
 wrote:

 Anti-fa does support violence, in that its “planned
 fight back” its “planned defensive attacks,” as if
 military or police. It creates chaos, and chaos leads to
 violence and disintegration of the left, thus with chaos the
 government, and ruling
  elite wins.  There are historical examples proving
 this.

  One does not have to be a pacifist, one does not need
 to oppose uprisings, but chaos, leads to violence and
 disintegration of the left. 

 No movement/revolution using violence has ever
 succeeded. MLK knew this, perhaps he couldn’t have
 accomplished what he did without the threat of Malcolm X,
 but Malcolm would never have been able to accomplish what
 MLK did.

 Only civil resistance succeeds.

 On Jul 4, 2018, at 06:53, Harry Mickalide via Peace
 <peace at lists.chambana.net>
 wrote:

 It's not that Antifa doesn't expect
 punishment. It's that they
 risk punishment in order to defend us and fight
 fascism.

 In fact, if we're going to compare the difference
 between thought and action, we here on the Internet are
 thinking about creating a just world, while people
 in Antifa are in the streets actually
 doing it.

 Here is an article where multiple people thank Antifa
 for defending them from Nazis. 

 http://www.slate.com/articles/
 news_and_politics/politics/201
 7/08/what_the_alt_left_was_act
 ually_doing_in_charlottesville .html

 On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at
 11:06 PM, David Green via Peace 
 <peace at lists.chambana.net>
 wrote:

 I'm not sure of the precise origin of the
 notion of "hate crimes" in the law in our own
 country, if there is such an origin; but my sense--perhaps
 more directly applicable to European and Canadian laws that
 directly monitor speech--has
  long been that what Norman Finkelstein has called the
 "Holocaust Industry" contributed to the
 development of such a notion, by equating the actuality of
 the Holocaust, anti-semitic beliefs, and criticism of
 Israel's very real crimes.

 DG

 On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 9:47 PM C G Estabrook
 <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
 wrote:

 It might mean
 (a) opinion constitutes moral worth - "it’s
 good/evil if you think it is”; or
 (b) opinion misinterprets moral worth - "it’s
 good, but you mistakenly think it evil.”

 HAMLET, 2.2===========================
 ======================

 • Hamlet. ... What
 news ?

 • Rosencrantz. None,
 my lord, but that the world's grown honest.
 • Hamlet. Then is
 doomsday near! But your news is not true. Let me 

 question more in particular. What have you, my good
 friends, 

 deserved at the hands of Fortune that she sends you to
 prison 

 hither?

 •
 Guildenstern. Prison, my lord?

 •
 Hamlet. Denmark's a prison. 

 • Rosencrantz. Then
 is the world one.

 • Hamlet. A goodly
 one; in which there are many confines, wards, and 

 dungeons, Denmark being one o' th' worst.

 • Rosencrantz. We
 think not so, my lord.

 • Hamlet. Why, then
 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good 

 or bad but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison.

 • Rosencrantz. Why,
 then your ambition makes it one. 'Tis too narrow for
 your 

 mind.

 • Hamlet. O God, I
 could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a 

 king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad
 dreams.

 •
 Guildenstern. Which dreams indeed are ambition; for the
 very substance of 

 the ambitious is merely the shadow of a dream.

 • Hamlet. A dream
 itself is but a shadow.

 •
 Rosencrantz. Truly, and I hold ambition of so airy and
 light a quality that 

 it is but a shadow's shadow. 

 • Hamlet. Then are
 our beggars bodies, and our monarchs and
 outstretch'd 

 heroes the beggars' shadows. Shall we to th' court?
 for, by my 

 fay, I cannot reason.

 ==============================
 ===========================

 On Jul 3, 2018, at 9:08 PM, David Green via Peace
 <peace at lists.chambana.net>
 wrote:

 How is the line from Hamlet
 misunderstood?

 On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 6:57 PM C G Estabrook
 via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.
 net> wrote:

 One of the most misunderstood lines in Shakespeare is
 Hamlet’s “...there is nothing either good or bad, but
 thinking makes it so.”

 Here a FOA (Friend of AWARE) brilliantly applies it to
 current US politics (h/t K. Aram):

 "Today I had two discussions, one with people
 advocating hate crime laws, and another with people
 defending Antifa, and it occurred to me that they were
 pretty much the same people.

 "Hate crime laws are actually thought crime laws, in
 that they take what is already a crime, and add years to the
 sentence if the perp was thinking bad thoughts when they
 committed the crime.

 "Antifas are people who commit crimes, and expect to go
 unpunished at all, because they were thinking good thoughts
 when they committed the crime.

 "This is magical thinking, the idea that thoughts are
 more important than reality. This is very American, since we
 have had multiple Think Yourself Rich fads, from Napoleon
 Hill to Oprah. And we are earnestly told that having a
 president who 'believes' in climate
  change is more important than actual policy changes. And,
 of course, the latest fad in which you can think yourself
 right into the opposite sex. (And not in the old 'think
 yourself irresistible' way.)

 "I think I'll just be over here, in the corner,
 visualizing peace.” --Paula
 Densnow

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