[OccupyCU] Jesse Francis presentation

Wed Nov 14 22:30:45 UTC 2012

Carl,

I don't identify as a liberal and your Chomsky quote refers to free speech
in society at large, rather than voluntary associations. Free speech
doesn't equate to freeedom to harrass or organize a genocidal program, for
example.

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 4:16 PM, C. G. Estabrook
<carl at newsfromneptune.com>wrote:

> Amazing. Another call for censorship from self-proclaimed liberals.
>
> "If you don't believe in free speech for views you despise, you don't
> believe in it at all."  --Noam Chomsky
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2012, at 4:02 PM, Scott Kimball <scttkmbll at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "I'm also not sure if you're aware of this, but up to this date, ocCUpy
> has yet to have eliminated anyone from the group based on their opinions or
> beliefs"
> >
> > Perhaps that's the problem. Is anyone allowed to post anything they want
> on the listserv  even if it is racist, sexist, anti-semitic, homophobic,
> etc?  I've seen people bullied and harassed on this listserv. I've seen
> women called "shrewey bitches" for speaking out against sexism. Now fascist
> propaganda is broadcast with impunity.
> >
> > I'm fed up and I want no part of this.
> >
> > Ya'aqov - I no longer feel that Occupy CU is the space to do that.
> That's why I'm disassociating from the group and asking to be removed from
> the listserv. Of course, I still appreciate many of the people who choose
> to organize under the auspices of Occupy CU.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Chris Goodrow <c_goodrow at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Scott,
> >
> > It seems you're confused about my feelings on this. I don't feel
> personally attacked at all so am not being defensive on a personal level.
>  My defense is more for ocCUpy, the group. Jesse was one of the two people
> who started the very first ocCUpy meeting. He requested to make a
> presentation to the group which we allowed. No one knew in advance what the
> presentation was to be about.
> >
> > So, let me be clear:
> >
> > I don't have a problem with how you feel about this issue or even Jesse
> for that matter. I more take issue with the condescending "shame on you
> OccupyCU" statement before really having much of a grasp of what took
> place. I'm also not sure if you're aware of this, but up to this date,
> ocCUpy has yet to have eliminated anyone from the group based on their
> opinions or beliefs. Jesse has made it clear he's more than willing to move
> on provided he gets no support with this, and as far as I know, he hasn't
> received any.
> >
> > Feel free to do what you feel you need to do.  However, if you feel
> sabotaging ocCUpy is one of those actions you find yourself needing to do,
> I'll let your conscience be your guide.
> >
> > Chris Goodrow
> > (217) 898-5039
> >
> >
> > Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 15:17:36 -0600
> >
> > Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] Jesse Francis presentation
> > From: scttkmbll at gmail.com
> > To: c_goodrow at hotmail.com
> > CC: sarah.lazare at gmail.com; stephenf1113 at yahoo.com;
> occupycu at lists.chambana.net
> >
> >
> > Chris,
> >
> > Please don't be so defensive. No one is blaming you, as an individual,
> for anything. However, occupy, as a group, is responsible for the people
> who are welcomed into the space. Non-hierarchy does not translate into
> non-accountability. In non-hierarchies it is especially important for
> individuals to take personal responsibility for speaking out against
> oppression and oppressive forces.
> >
> > This person was welcomed into the space and added to the listserv, which
> he has used to spread his cryptofascist agenda. My only connection to
> Occupy CU at this point is through the listserv. Accordingly all of the
> offending activity I am referring to has happened on this listserv. If
> Occupy CU still operates on the assumption of building a community through
> consent, then(I'll try to be as clear as possible):
> >
> >  I am letting occupy CU know that I cannot consent to fascism in our
> community. As such, I would rather disassociate from the group than
> continue to be a part of a group that tolerates such actions. If Occupy CU
> chooses to continue associating with such people, so be it. However, I do
> not want to be associated with such a group.
> >
> > Chris -- I respect you and I want to make this clear that this is not a
> personal attack. This is about group responsibility and accountability.
> >
> > If Occupy CU chooses to work on this person, or on this project, I want
> no part of it. In fact, I will make sure the antifascist community is aware
> of such a project.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Chris Goodrow <c_goodrow at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Fair enough, Scott.  I guess everyone that didn't reply except you is
> complicit. We're all guilty of silence, thus ocCUpy is now an anti-semitic
> group.
> >
> > Chris Goodrow
> > (217) 898-5039
> >
> >
> > Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 14:28:18 -0600
> >
> > Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] Jesse Francis presentation
> > From: scttkmbll at gmail.com
> > To: sarah.lazare at gmail.com
> > CC: c_goodrow at hotmail.com; stephenf1113 at yahoo.com;
> occupycu at lists.chambana.net
> >
> >
> > Chris,
> >
> > As Sarah said, silence is complicity.
> >
> > First they came for the communists,
> > and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
> >
> > Then they came for the socialists,
> > and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.
> >
> > Then they came for the trade unionists,
> > and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
> >
> > Then they came for me,
> > and there was no one left to speak for me.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Sarah Lazare <sarah.lazare at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > If someone sends out something anti-semitic to an organizing listserv or
> brings anti-semitic messages into an organizing space, silence is
> complicity. If an organization tolerates racism, sexism, or any other form
> of bigotry, then that organization is responsible. At the very least, I
> would hope that if someone says something anti-semitic they would get
> push-back. I am very concerned that the only response I've seen to a
> proto-fascist, anti-semitic organization's presence at the local Occupy has
> been to criticize someone for speaking out against it. Have there been
> other responses that haven't been aired in this public online forum?
> >
> > Sarah
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 1:19 PM, Chris Goodrow <c_goodrow at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > In all fairness, Scott, you're doing something similar that a number
> have people have done in regard to Occupy around the nation since it began.
>  You're taking one instance of what one person says and placing it all on
> the group. When one person shit on a police car, guess what?  That must
> mean that we're all dirty drugging hippies shitting on cars. So, rather
> than shit on ocCUpy, perhaps your issue should be with the one person
> you're taking issue with.
> >
> > I personally agree that we shouldn't be getting into the 911 truth
> conspiracy theories and it would only serve to discredit us further.  Of
> course, that is just me speaking as one person and not ocCUpy as a whole.
> >
> > Chris Goodrow
> > (217) 898-5039
> >
> >
> > Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 11:51:58 -0600
> > From: scttkmbll at gmail.com
> > To: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com
> > CC: OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net
> >
> > Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] Jesse Francis presentation
> >
> > More from the website:
> >
> > "The Nazi's caused the death of 100's of thousands, not millions, and
> not in gas chambers.  Jews have used this ploy too long and at the expense
> of the lives of millions of Palestinians."
> >
> > "The Jews were a small minority of the 60 million killed in WWII. The
> gas chamber stories are grossly overblown."
> >
> > Who are "the Jews". Sounds like some "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"
> nonsense. This is just a rehashing of the "international jewry" nonsense
> that Nazis have been spouting for years. If you were honestly anti-zionist
> and not anti-semitic, you would be well advised to not refer to the state
> of Isreal as "the jews".
> >
> > Don't conflate your anti-semitism with anti-zionism.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Stephen Francis <
> stephenf1113 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > NewsFollowUp.com is very anti-Zionist because of the mountain of
> evidence to Zionist involvement in 9/11.  NewsFollowUp.com is NOT anti
> semitic.  There is a massive anti Zionist movement in Israel that deserves
> to be supported.  There is a huge difference between anti-semitism and
> anti-Zionism.
> > I'm very interested in the outcome of this discussion within the
> OccupyCU group because it gets to the bare bones issues of income
> inequality, privacy, media ownership, civil rights...on and on.  If there
> is a consensus that agrees with Scott Kimball, I will gladly leave the
> group.
> > Thank you,
> > Steve Francis
> >
> > From: Scott Kimball <scttkmbll at gmail.com>
> > To: Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>
> > Cc: "OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net" <OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 10:46 AM
> > Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] Jesse Francis presentation
> >
> > Are you kidding me?
> >
> > Everyone here should be aware of the fact that the "9-11 truth movement"
> is highly anti-semitic and connected to neo-fascist groups. If anyone
> bothered to go on the website, they would see this link:
> >
> > http://www.newsfollowup.com/Israel.htm
> >
> > Which boldly proclaims that "The holocaust is the greatest hoax ever
> perpetrated on mankind". I found this after about 2 minutes on the website.
> Trust me, it only gets worse from there. For those of you who were
> previously unaware, now you know. For everyone else, shame on you!
> >
> > In addition, why would you support this absurd discourse? There are real
> problems that we need to organize around and you are spending your time
> your time postulating conspiracy theories.
> >
> > Shame on you OccupyCU.
> >
> > Unless someone has a reasonable response as to why this poison is being
> brought into this community, I'd like to be removed from the listserv. I
> don't want to be associated with anti-semitic groups and, I'm sure, many of
> you do not as well.
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 3:22 AM, Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > Hello all,
> > Just wanted to clarify my presentation from Monday night at the OccupyCU
> meeting.
> > I think I failed to emphasize the overall impression that I wanted to
> make, which is that I'm proposing and what all ready exists now on the
> internet is a 9/11 Truth Video Conference.
> > I'm proposing this as an activity for the group that would not compete
> with other activities, all in our effort to define our purpose and identify
> activities that we all agree on that would be worthwhile to energize the
> group.
> > It is also an effort to promote video conferencing as a tool or skill
> that we can use with all our activities locally.
> > Because of the volume of traffic of NewsFollowUp.com, there are about
> 30,000 'impressions' of an advertisement for the 9/11 Truth Video
> Conference (held in CU) per month and about 200 'clicks' per month to the
> advertisement and the page that provides all the information about the
> conference.  Because of the scope of NewsFollowUp, these clicks are going
> to mostly a national but also an international audience, which doesn't help
> the effort locally, but is good for finding 'high profile activists' on a
> national basis that would want to give a video presentation at the video
> conference.  I'm sure there are people locally that could make
> presentations also.
> > I don't think this amount of 'clicks' is nearly enough to get the word
> out so I'm soliciting for help and need suggestions on how to increase the
> reach of the advertisements.  Thus I will be taking my presentation to
> other groups in town.
> > Anyway, I hope this is helpful.
> > Thanks
> > Steve Francis
> >
> > http://www.newsfollowup.com/
> >
> http://www.newsfollowup.com/midwest_911_truth_conference_champaign-urbana_september_2013_newsfollowup.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OccupyCU mailing list
> > OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net
> > http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Kimball
> > Project Organizer
> > American Federation of Teachers
> > Higher Education Project
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Kimball
> > Project Organizer
> > American Federation of Teachers
> > Higher Education Project
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________ OccupyCU mailing list
> OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net
> http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OccupyCU mailing list
> > OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net
> > http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Kimball
> > Project Organizer
> > American Federation of Teachers
> > Higher Education Project
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Kimball
> > Project Organizer
> > American Federation of Teachers
> > Higher Education Project
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Kimball
> > Project Organizer
> > American Federation of Teachers
> > Higher Education Project
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OccupyCU mailing list
> > OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net
> > http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu
>
>

-- 
Scott Kimball
Project Organizer
American Federation of Teachers
Higher Education Project
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