[OccupyCU] Jesse Francis presentation

Wed Nov 14 22:43:27 UTC 2012

Sure it does, if 

"harass"  = saying something in the hearing of someone who doesn't want to hear it (on a listserv, say); or

"organize a genocidal program" = saying something in an organized fashion (lectures, say) about genocide (e.g., giving lectures on American history).   

On Nov 14, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Scott Kimball <scttkmbll at gmail.com> wrote:

> Carl,
> 
> I don't identify as a liberal and your Chomsky quote refers to free speech in society at large, rather than voluntary associations. Free speech doesn't equate to freeedom to harrass or organize a genocidal program, for example.
> 
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 4:16 PM, C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote:
> Amazing. Another call for censorship from self-proclaimed liberals.
> 
> "If you don't believe in free speech for views you despise, you don't believe in it at all."  --Noam Chomsky
> 
> 
> On Nov 14, 2012, at 4:02 PM, Scott Kimball <scttkmbll at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > "I'm also not sure if you're aware of this, but up to this date, ocCUpy has yet to have eliminated anyone from the group based on their opinions or beliefs"
> >
> > Perhaps that's the problem. Is anyone allowed to post anything they want on the listserv  even if it is racist, sexist, anti-semitic, homophobic, etc?  I've seen people bullied and harassed on this listserv. I've seen women called "shrewey bitches" for speaking out against sexism. Now fascist propaganda is broadcast with impunity.
> >
> > I'm fed up and I want no part of this.
> >
> > Ya'aqov - I no longer feel that Occupy CU is the space to do that. That's why I'm disassociating from the group and asking to be removed from the listserv. Of course, I still appreciate many of the people who choose to organize under the auspices of Occupy CU.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Chris Goodrow <c_goodrow at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Scott,
> >
> > It seems you're confused about my feelings on this. I don't feel personally attacked at all so am not being defensive on a personal level.  My defense is more for ocCUpy, the group. Jesse was one of the two people who started the very first ocCUpy meeting. He requested to make a presentation to the group which we allowed. No one knew in advance what the presentation was to be about.
> >
> > So, let me be clear:
> >
> > I don't have a problem with how you feel about this issue or even Jesse for that matter. I more take issue with the condescending "shame on you OccupyCU" statement before really having much of a grasp of what took place. I'm also not sure if you're aware of this, but up to this date, ocCUpy has yet to have eliminated anyone from the group based on their opinions or beliefs. Jesse has made it clear he's more than willing to move on provided he gets no support with this, and as far as I know, he hasn't received any.
> >
> > Feel free to do what you feel you need to do.  However, if you feel sabotaging ocCUpy is one of those actions you find yourself needing to do, I'll let your conscience be your guide.
> >
> > Chris Goodrow
> > (217) 898-5039
> >
> >
> > Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 15:17:36 -0600
> >
> > Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] Jesse Francis presentation
> > From: scttkmbll at gmail.com
> > To: c_goodrow at hotmail.com
> > CC: sarah.lazare at gmail.com; stephenf1113 at yahoo.com; occupycu at lists.chambana.net
> >
> >
> > Chris,
> >
> > Please don't be so defensive. No one is blaming you, as an individual, for anything. However, occupy, as a group, is responsible for the people who are welcomed into the space. Non-hierarchy does not translate into non-accountability. In non-hierarchies it is especially important for individuals to take personal responsibility for speaking out against oppression and oppressive forces.
> >
> > This person was welcomed into the space and added to the listserv, which he has used to spread his cryptofascist agenda. My only connection to Occupy CU at this point is through the listserv. Accordingly all of the offending activity I am referring to has happened on this listserv. If Occupy CU still operates on the assumption of building a community through consent, then(I'll try to be as clear as possible):
> >
> >  I am letting occupy CU know that I cannot consent to fascism in our community. As such, I would rather disassociate from the group than continue to be a part of a group that tolerates such actions. If Occupy CU chooses to continue associating with such people, so be it. However, I do not want to be associated with such a group.
> >
> > Chris -- I respect you and I want to make this clear that this is not a personal attack. This is about group responsibility and accountability.
> >
> > If Occupy CU chooses to work on this person, or on this project, I want no part of it. In fact, I will make sure the antifascist community is aware of such a project.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Chris Goodrow <c_goodrow at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Fair enough, Scott.  I guess everyone that didn't reply except you is complicit. We're all guilty of silence, thus ocCUpy is now an anti-semitic group.
> >
> > Chris Goodrow
> > (217) 898-5039
> >
> >
> > Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 14:28:18 -0600
> >
> > Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] Jesse Francis presentation
> > From: scttkmbll at gmail.com
> > To: sarah.lazare at gmail.com
> > CC: c_goodrow at hotmail.com; stephenf1113 at yahoo.com; occupycu at lists.chambana.net
> >
> >
> > Chris,
> >
> > As Sarah said, silence is complicity.
> >
> > First they came for the communists,
> > and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
> >
> > Then they came for the socialists,
> > and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.
> >
> > Then they came for the trade unionists,
> > and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
> >
> > Then they came for me,
> > and there was no one left to speak for me.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Sarah Lazare <sarah.lazare at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > If someone sends out something anti-semitic to an organizing listserv or brings anti-semitic messages into an organizing space, silence is complicity. If an organization tolerates racism, sexism, or any other form of bigotry, then that organization is responsible. At the very least, I would hope that if someone says something anti-semitic they would get push-back. I am very concerned that the only response I've seen to a proto-fascist, anti-semitic organization's presence at the local Occupy has been to criticize someone for speaking out against it. Have there been other responses that haven't been aired in this public online forum?
> >
> > Sarah
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 1:19 PM, Chris Goodrow <c_goodrow at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > In all fairness, Scott, you're doing something similar that a number have people have done in regard to Occupy around the nation since it began.  You're taking one instance of what one person says and placing it all on the group. When one person shit on a police car, guess what?  That must mean that we're all dirty drugging hippies shitting on cars. So, rather than shit on ocCUpy, perhaps your issue should be with the one person you're taking issue with.
> >
> > I personally agree that we shouldn't be getting into the 911 truth conspiracy theories and it would only serve to discredit us further.  Of course, that is just me speaking as one person and not ocCUpy as a whole.
> >
> > Chris Goodrow
> > (217) 898-5039
> >
> >
> > Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 11:51:58 -0600
> > From: scttkmbll at gmail.com
> > To: stephenf1113 at yahoo.com
> > CC: OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net
> >
> > Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] Jesse Francis presentation
> >
> > More from the website:
> >
> > "The Nazi's caused the death of 100's of thousands, not millions, and not in gas chambers.  Jews have used this ploy too long and at the expense of the lives of millions of Palestinians."
> >
> > "The Jews were a small minority of the 60 million killed in WWII. The gas chamber stories are grossly overblown."
> >
> > Who are "the Jews". Sounds like some "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" nonsense. This is just a rehashing of the "international jewry" nonsense that Nazis have been spouting for years. If you were honestly anti-zionist and not anti-semitic, you would be well advised to not refer to the state of Isreal as "the jews".
> >
> > Don't conflate your anti-semitism with anti-zionism.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > NewsFollowUp.com is very anti-Zionist because of the mountain of evidence to Zionist involvement in 9/11.  NewsFollowUp.com is NOT anti semitic.  There is a massive anti Zionist movement in Israel that deserves to be supported.  There is a huge difference between anti-semitism and anti-Zionism.
> > I'm very interested in the outcome of this discussion within the OccupyCU group because it gets to the bare bones issues of income inequality, privacy, media ownership, civil rights...on and on.  If there is a consensus that agrees with Scott Kimball, I will gladly leave the group.
> > Thank you,
> > Steve Francis
> >
> > From: Scott Kimball <scttkmbll at gmail.com>
> > To: Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>
> > Cc: "OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net" <OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 10:46 AM
> > Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] Jesse Francis presentation
> >
> > Are you kidding me?
> >
> > Everyone here should be aware of the fact that the "9-11 truth movement" is highly anti-semitic and connected to neo-fascist groups. If anyone bothered to go on the website, they would see this link:
> >
> > http://www.newsfollowup.com/Israel.htm
> >
> > Which boldly proclaims that "The holocaust is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on mankind". I found this after about 2 minutes on the website. Trust me, it only gets worse from there. For those of you who were previously unaware, now you know. For everyone else, shame on you!
> >
> > In addition, why would you support this absurd discourse? There are real problems that we need to organize around and you are spending your time your time postulating conspiracy theories.
> >
> > Shame on you OccupyCU.
> >
> > Unless someone has a reasonable response as to why this poison is being brought into this community, I'd like to be removed from the listserv. I don't want to be associated with anti-semitic groups and, I'm sure, many of you do not as well.
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 3:22 AM, Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Hello all,
> > Just wanted to clarify my presentation from Monday night at the OccupyCU meeting.
> > I think I failed to emphasize the overall impression that I wanted to make, which is that I'm proposing and what all ready exists now on the internet is a 9/11 Truth Video Conference.
> > I'm proposing this as an activity for the group that would not compete with other activities, all in our effort to define our purpose and identify activities that we all agree on that would be worthwhile to energize the group.
> > It is also an effort to promote video conferencing as a tool or skill that we can use with all our activities locally.
> > Because of the volume of traffic of NewsFollowUp.com, there are about 30,000 'impressions' of an advertisement for the 9/11 Truth Video Conference (held in CU) per month and about 200 'clicks' per month to the advertisement and the page that provides all the information about the conference.  Because of the scope of NewsFollowUp, these clicks are going to mostly a national but also an international audience, which doesn't help the effort locally, but is good for finding 'high profile activists' on a national basis that would want to give a video presentation at the video conference.  I'm sure there are people locally that could make presentations also.
> > I don't think this amount of 'clicks' is nearly enough to get the word out so I'm soliciting for help and need suggestions on how to increase the reach of the advertisements.  Thus I will be taking my presentation to other groups in town.
> > Anyway, I hope this is helpful.
> > Thanks
> > Steve Francis
> >
> > http://www.newsfollowup.com/
> > http://www.newsfollowup.com/midwest_911_truth_conference_champaign-urbana_september_2013_newsfollowup.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OccupyCU mailing list
> > OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net
> > http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Kimball
> > Project Organizer
> > American Federation of Teachers
> > Higher Education Project
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Kimball
> > Project Organizer
> > American Federation of Teachers
> > Higher Education Project
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________ OccupyCU mailing list OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net
> > http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Kimball
> > Project Organizer
> > American Federation of Teachers
> > Higher Education Project
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Kimball
> > Project Organizer
> > American Federation of Teachers
> > Higher Education Project
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Kimball
> > Project Organizer
> > American Federation of Teachers
> > Higher Education Project
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OccupyCU mailing list
> > OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net
> > http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Scott Kimball
> Project Organizer
> American Federation of Teachers
> Higher Education Project
> 

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