[Peace-discuss] Reflections on a recent Greenwald interview about BLM

[David Green]

I don't care about the GP, and haven't had anything to do with it since
2016. Just like I haven't been a misogynist since 2014.

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 5:40 AM Robert Naiman <naiman.uiuc at gmail.com> wrote:

> Which is doing more to change history: Black Lives Matter or the Green
> Party?
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 11:55 PM David Green via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
>> It's Anarcho-neoliberalism with an unlimited time horizon, in order to
>> milk as much $ from foundations in the meantime.
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020, 10:43 PM J.B. Nicholson via Peace-discuss <
>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Brussel, Morton K wrote:
>>> > The BLM “movement", which arouses such fervent antagonism by David,
>>> has had worthy
>>> > manifestations throughout the country, and elsewhere. I have not seen
>>> the evidence
>>> > that they were financed/supported by Soros and/or specific groups.
>>> There were all
>>> > kinds of participants in the protests, aroused by the killing of
>>> George Floyd.
>>> > David seems to relegate the protests to a false issue; i.e., by
>>> ignoring willfully
>>> > the crucial class and revolutionary issues. It’s as if the mass
>>> protests were bad,
>>> > i.e., counterproductive. But they did reveal the pernicious actions of
>>> the present
>>> > system and the Trump government, viz Portland.
>>>
>>> I was watching Glenn Greenwald's latest interview
>>> (https://youtube.com/watch?v=I_2CVBN4mlo) which is with Andray Domise
>>> (described as
>>> "definitely a militant supporter of [Black Lives Matter]" at 2m40s). I
>>> think this
>>> interview eventually gets into something relevant to this discussion:
>>> BLM
>>> co-optation. I think this ends up backing up David Green's criticism of
>>> BLM
>>> (particularly when he wrote that "[BLM's] analysis is preposterous, with
>>> no material
>>> component whatsoever.").
>>>
>>> I think that Greenwald is too generous to Domise in trying to find a
>>> nice way to say
>>> that BLM needed to have announced what they stood for a while ago.
>>>
>>> I'm hesitant to recommend this video for running during either AWARE on
>>> the Air or
>>> News from Neptune because it's too long for what little value the
>>> interview has. The
>>> video is worth seeing for about 15 minutes worth of BLM critique
>>> starting around 23
>>> minutes in, and for the talk after about 1 hour in.
>>>
>>> Here's some more detail on my take on BLM based on what I saw in this
>>> interview. I'll
>>> try to hit the highlights because, frankly, this interview felt to me
>>> like quite a
>>> slog to go through.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I still don't know what BLM stands for even after watching this talk.
>>> BLM's choices
>>> strike me as indistinguishable from ethics-washing neoliberalism (I'm
>>> not sure what
>>> the right term is here, but I think of "ethics-washing" for neoliberal
>>> interests to
>>> be akin to what the term "greenwashing" means for businesses that
>>> operate in
>>> anti-environmental ways). I'm all for cops not killing people, but there
>>> has to be a
>>> plan of action to make that come about. It can't just be a vision with
>>> implementation
>>> detail left unsaid which is what gives me the impression the practical,
>>> challenging-police-policy part is left out. And what's left (painting
>>> slogans on
>>> signs, floors, streets, and the phrase "defund the police") seem to me
>>> to be
>>> distractions.
>>>
>>> It's not clear to me how Domise holds the views he does and is still a
>>> "militant
>>> supporter of BLM". I doubt even he could give the 10-point list of
>>> demands he said
>>> BLM might need. Domise said, "I don't even know where a [Black Lives
>>> Matter]
>>> manifesto would begin...they [Black Lives Matter] have on their website
>>> their policy
>>> goals, their ideology -- everything is already there" which doesn't
>>> address how
>>> little any goals are seen in the protests on the street, what the
>>> adversely affected
>>> need now, and that goals without clear strategy reads as lofty ideas
>>> with no
>>> implementation details.
>>>
>>> Domise claims that BLM doesn't want to put effort into making "specific
>>> and cogent
>>> demands" because the media won't accurately echo BLM's demands. He
>>> claims this
>>> repeats an experience he had with his speaking to people at Occupy Wall
>>> St.:
>>>
>>> > Domise: When I spoke to people at Occupy, they made a pretty
>>> convincing case to me
>>> > that, well, yes: it would be a lot easier for people to digest at home
>>> if we had a
>>> > crisp and tight set of demands. But then the question is, are those
>>> demands going
>>> > to be good enough? Are they [the media] actually going to repeat what
>>> we say on
>>> > the evening news? Even the things that we have been saying that we say
>>> right in
>>> > front of news cameras when we're being interviewed. They're getting,
>>> let's say,
>>> > like two-second snippets out of everything that we've just said and
>>> they're
>>> > describing us as being not only leaderless but pointless as well. And
>>> I kind of
>>> > got that; there is going to be that obscurantist mode that media takes
>>> that even
>>> > when you've done the work of making these very specific and very
>>> cogent demands
>>> > they're still going to make it seem like disorganized movement of the
>>> disaffected
>>> > and apathetic anyway. So I kind of get that.
>>>
>>> I found this to be a very revealing quote because to me it says that
>>> BLM's organizers
>>> haven't yet learned that in life you can only control what you do, not
>>> what other
>>> people do. You're always better off explaining what you stand for as
>>> clearly as you
>>> can (even revising it later as you learn more or are better at
>>> explaining what's in
>>> your head). By the same token, this is why I find that the best evidence
>>> against
>>> BLM's choices are found on their own website: there they have full
>>> control over their
>>> own message. No other media gets in the way of passing their message on
>>> to us. Yet
>>> there I find nothing specific, actionable, and cogent. Real-world needs
>>> such as
>>> Medicare for All, rent forgiveness/control/strikes, a universal basic
>>> income,
>>> guaranteed housing, and a national jobs program are all class concerns
>>> that speak to
>>> what we urgently need (now more than ever) yet go unaddressed on BLM's
>>> website.
>>> Community control over police is a good idea but going about getting
>>> that is
>>> difficult, even after the recent police murders.
>>>
>>> Later Domise said:
>>> > Domise: I don't think you're ever going to be able to stop the process
>>> of
>>> > recuperation and co-optation regardless. You know, four years ago I
>>> don't know
>>> > that we would have seen corporations tweeting out and saying on
>>> instagram, or
>>> > putting in hashtags, "Black Lives Matter". But does that matter
>>> anyway? That
>>> > itself is the process of capitalist recuperation: that is, willing to
>>> say the
>>> > thing that you want to hear because it's going to adapt, it's going to
>>> organize
>>> > itself in such a fashion that it's going to tamp out resistance to
>>> itself. So when
>>> > corporations are tweeting out "Black Lives Matter" but then continuing
>>> practices
>>> > as status quo they're still lobbying the federal government for money,
>>> they're
>>> > still lobbying to keep the minimum wage low, they're still stamping
>>> out unions
>>> > does that actually make any difference? And I don't know that words
>>> are going to
>>> > be enough. I think it's going to be specific actions to limit the
>>> power of
>>> > corporations, to get money out of politics, to give more power to
>>> people [...]
>>>
>>> I found this revealing too. Here are some points that came to mind
>>> during this
>>> section of the interview:
>>>
>>> - One problem with BLM is framing this in terms of "stop[ping] the
>>> process [of
>>> co-optation]" instead of asking why BLM's name is so easily co-opted by
>>> the
>>> establishment. Domise asked "does that [co-optation] matter anyway?":
>>> Yes, if those
>>> are BLM goals being minimized or rendered toothless in the co-optation.
>>> Domise said
>>> "I don't know that words are going to be enough". Words are enough to
>>> indicate what
>>> side BLM is on.
>>>
>>> If BLM had published a series of clear, specific, and actionable
>>> statements on its
>>> own website detailing what needs to be done and how to reach those
>>> goals, perhaps it
>>> would be much more difficult to co-opt what BLM was saying. For example,
>>> I
>>> occasionally hear BLM activists advocate for raising the minimum wage
>>> but the action
>>> on that comes from other activists that don't have any visible
>>> connection to BLM. I
>>> see nothing on BLM's website actionably describing steps to raise the
>>> minimum wage,
>>> create more (presumably worker-run) unions, or organizing people to
>>> lobby their
>>> Congresspeople to not give big businesses more money (ala CARES Act
>>> largesse).
>>>
>>> Domise's framing helps BLM to try to make the task of being specific and
>>> actionable
>>> seem insurmountable or unnecessary, even unwise. And the results from
>>> when BLM began
>>> and now appear to be that there will be no serious policy changes in
>>> police behavior.
>>> Without serious police policy change and proof of compliance with the
>>> new policy, it
>>> seems fair to ask what BLM's goals are and how are those goals being met?
>>>
>>> - "Getting money out of politics" is a phrase I've heard before in
>>> progressive
>>> political interviews. I've yet to hear an interviewer require the
>>> speaker to define
>>> what that means or point out a direct conflict with freedom of speech.
>>> It seems more
>>> practical to me to come up with ways to deal with that than repeat this
>>> long-repeated
>>> but apparently inactionable catchphrase. Carl Estabrook came up with a
>>> way to
>>> accomplish this in the context of political candidates not being heard
>>> from on TV and
>>> radio: as a condition of keeping a public broadcast license, add a
>>> requirement that
>>> any public-airwave broadcaster must run during prime-time a 1-hour,
>>> uninterrupted,
>>> and uncensored piece from each ballot-qualified candidate who submits
>>> such a piece to
>>> be run. This allows political candidates running for office to get one
>>> hour of
>>> airtime that costs a campaign real money and helps the public who
>>> sees/hears it make
>>> a more informed choice when they vote.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regarding this exchange when Greenwald pressed Domise to say what BLM
>>> stands for:
>>>
>>> > Greenwald: [...] What, to you, are those really meaty critical issues,
>>> like? What
>>> > are the goals of this movement whether unrealistic but nonetheless
>>> worthy to
>>> > strive for and advocate, or actually realistic?
>>> >
>>> > Domise: I mean...If I was to say, for example, that the goal is the
>>> abolition of
>>> > police in the carceral state, a lot of people will say 'well, what
>>> does that even
>>> > mean?'. Well, it means the abolition of police in the carceral state.
>>> It means no
>>> > more prisons. It means no more police officers. It means that we are
>>> able to
>>> > manage our own affairs. 'Well, how do you get rid of police in the
>>> carceral
>>> > state?' You cannot have a system that doesn't produce criminals unless
>>> you get rid
>>> > of the system altogether which means ending capitalism. That means
>>> realigning our
>>> > social arrangements such that we are operating under a socialist
>>> system. Is having
>>> > a social system going to solve the cultural state? No absolutely not.
>>> There are
>>> > societal problems that we're going to have to address at the micro
>>> level. So then
>>> > the question becomes, well, how do solve all these problems at once
>>> and you have
>>> > to take steps towards it. So the tough part and getting to people to
>>> radically
>>> > reimagine our system of social relations is people are a lot more
>>> comfortable, or
>>> > I shouldn't say comfortable, but they're a lot more willing to move
>>> away from pain
>>> > than they are toward pleasure and the pain of unfamiliarity, that is,
>>> what does a
>>> > system look like without police, if you read "The End of Policing" for
>>> example,
>>> > there are many examples and many suggestions for which a system that
>>> doesn't have
>>> > policing actually looks. You know, who do we bring in in the place of
>>> these armed
>>> > agents of the state, the people that have the monopoly on the use of
>>> violence? But
>>> > getting people to actually read a book or getting people to understand
>>> a different
>>> > form of social relations -- people talk about, like you know,
>>> capitalism and
>>> > socialism et cetera as if it's economics, it's not, it's how we
>>> related to one
>>> > another. And I don't quite know how you do that. [...]
>>>
>>> and later when Domise offered some "steps that we can to get there if
>>> we're talking
>>> about specific policy solutions":
>>>
>>> > Domise: Well, I don't even think that taxing billionaires more is even
>>> going to be
>>> > the answer. I think having a strict set of guidelines, that is: a CEO
>>> and the
>>> > executive board [of a] company cannot earn more than this multiplier
>>> of their
>>> > workers. That bringing back labor power to the workplace where workers
>>> can
>>> > collectively organize without being undermined by their bosses.
>>> [Example of an
>>> > unnamed worker-led union being fired immediately after unionizing, and
>>> he says the
>>> > US needs "a real left party" if we're going to pursue policy changes
>>> through
>>> > electoral politics which he has abandoned]
>>>
>>>
>>> - Domise's policy points are all given in the hypothetical. This left me
>>> unclear as
>>> to whether this is what BLM stands for or if this is what Domise wants
>>> independently
>>> of BLM.
>>>
>>> - It took almost an hour to get to this point. That is way too long to
>>> get to
>>> something approaching a description of what BLM might stand for.
>>>
>>> - Assuming, for a moment, that this is what BLM stands for, BLM is not
>>> spelling this
>>> out to their audience in their protests or on their website. But this is
>>> an example
>>> of a message which establishment figures would not have echoed
>>> (co-opted) if
>>> establishment figures knew that that's what BLM stands for.
>>>
>>> - I see some goals (such as having no police) but no means to reach
>>> those goals. This
>>> particular example is troublesome (see what David Green mentioned --
>>> Chaz/Chop was an
>>> unmitigated disaster). Chop was arrived at undemocratically as well.
>>> While having no
>>> police might be realistic, it clearly needs to be thought through more
>>> than it was
>>> with Chop. And it's the responsibility of someone who advocates for an
>>> end to police
>>> to be clear about how police tasks will be handled.
>>>
>>> - "[A] system that doesn't produce criminals" would seem to mean
>>> decriminalizing the
>>> actions that we call criminal, but which actions are those? To me this
>>> too needs some
>>> more consideration. I suggest understanding why criminal acts occur and
>>> addressing
>>> those issues more specifically: if, for example, people are stealing
>>> food to feed
>>> their families, perhaps we should provide everyone with good food
>>> gratis. Another
>>> example of something to consider: Portugal decriminalized all drugs and
>>> is using
>>> police to help addicts get rehabilitation. This appears to have
>>> significantly reduced
>>> drug abuse. That seems more specific and actionable than what I heard
>>> Domise say,
>>> certainly something worth looking into for those who understand and
>>> advocate for the
>>> goals Domise described. I'm sure there are other 'threats of a good
>>> example' we ought
>>> to consider.
>>>
>>> - a more minor point: I think that Domise should get used to repeating
>>> what he wants
>>> people to know instead of glibly repeating the exact same words again
>>> (as he did in
>>> his own example of "abolition of police in the carceral state" and what
>>> that means),
>>> or laughing at the idea that we need policy decisions (which Domise did
>>> just before
>>> the last quote above), or pointing to a book (such as "The End of
>>> Police") followed
>>> by criticizing his audience for not reading that book. It's reasonable
>>> to expect
>>> people to ask you to explain what you mean when you're addressing
>>> something
>>> unfamiliar. I think there's a great agreement that we don't want to see
>>> the police be
>>> a killing squad. How to get there in a sustainable way and understanding
>>> the
>>> tradeoffs in denying the police that power will need some thinking
>>> through and some
>>> explaining.
>>>
>>> -J
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