[IMC-Tech] Re: "crow" email list.

[Randall Cotton]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Zachary C. Miller" <zach at chambana.net>
To: "Randall Cotton" <recotton at earthlink.net>
Cc: <imc-tech at ucimc.org>; <c-bee1 at itg.uiuc.edu>; <carl at newsfromneptune.com>;
"Jeff Nicholson-Owens" <jbn at forestfield.org>; "Linda Evans"
<veganlinda at yahoo.com>; "Dawn Owens-Nicholson" <bluemoon at ad.uiuc.edu>; "May Kao
Xiong" <maykaoxiong at illinoisalumni.org>; "Yanni Tziligakis" <tziligak at uiuc.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: "crow" email list.


: I disabled the list because it was the opinion of the station manager
: and the chair of the board that the list was not an official weft list
: and that the lists use of the weft.org domain constituted an abuse of
: that domain.

OK, that's clear enough (and not entirely unexpected 8-)

: Until/unless WEFT appoints an official liason to chambana.net (a role
: formerly served by Euan on behalf of the PR committee on behalf of the
: associates, a role eventually passed on to Jason P but from which he
: resigned), the word of the station manager and/or the chair of the
: board is the word that dictates what is official. If you don't think
: that's appropriate then perhaps that is a reform of WEFT that you can
: work for.

Well said 8-)

: There's no problem with you having your crow email list on
: chambana.net. But you have to sign a contract to pay $30/year for it
: just like any other independent organization (or make other
: arrangements with the tech group)

Is that what WEFT pays? I actually wasn't aware that WEFT paid anything. I never
saw any mention of it when I was on the WEFT Board, for instance, but that
actually isn't saying  much. What are the terms of WEFT's arrangement?

 and you have to host it under either
: lists.chambana.net or your own personal domain or you have to get weft
: to formally sanction the creation of the list. If you were a comittee
: chair or the designee of a committee chair of a formally sanctioned
: WEFT committee then you could probably use weft.org (again though,
: this is up to WEFT policy, not chambana.net policy).  To my knowledge
: the CROW committee is not a formally recognized committee of the
: associates or of the board. If crow is a committee of AWARE, and AWARE
: is in good standing with chambana.net, then AWARE can pay an
: additional $10/month to add an additional email list. Things with
: billing are very much in flux/limbo right now but we do expect that
: cooperative users of the service understand that they need to
: financially support the server.

Just to clarify and reiterate, CROW is not a committee or working group or
otherwise affiliated with AWARE, though some AWARE members are in CROW.

: http://hosting.chambana.net/agreement.html
:
: If the station manager had told me that the weft-eng list was
: inappropriate, I would have disabled it. If you believe the station
: manager is overstepping authority that's an internal matter for WEFT
: to deal with, not for chambana.net to deal with.
:
: It is our naming standard that all lists actually related to WEFT
: start with the word "weft". All lists actually related to the
: prairiegreens start with "prairiegreens". All lists actually related
: to AWARE start with "peace" or "aware".
:
: In the past I've been keenly aware of who has authority in each
: organization to request changes to the service. Dan doesn't have my
: long term involvement with these organizations, so we'll probably have
: to work on formalizing relationships and this will happen in time. In
: the mean time, we're all just going to have to deal with things being
: a little ill defined and mushy for a while and do our best to get
: along. And, there's plenty of other hosting providers in the sea!

Thanks you, Zach, for all the info and the time you spent putting this together.
Much appreciated 8-)
R

:
: On 6/14/06, Randall Cotton <recotton at earthlink.net> wrote:
: > Zach writes: "I'm eager to learn the details of this story."
: >
: > I'm really not sure why you decided to disable the crow mailing list. There
are
: > no details that aren't out in the open here and available to you. In fact,
you
: > should have them all in e-mail sent to you.
: >
: > Here is a review:
: > I originally requested this list be created in an e-mail message to you as
: > follows:
: >
: > ----- Original Message -----
: > From: "Randall Cotton" <recotton at earthlink.net>
: > To: "Zachary C. Miller" <zach at chambana.net>
: > Cc: "Carl Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>
: > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 6:03 PM
: > Subject: new mailing list for chambana.net
: >
: >
: > : Hi Zach,
: > :
: > : Hope all is well with you.
: > :
: > : Could you initialize a new mailman mailing list on lists.chambana.net? The
: > list
: > : name is "crow" - Committee for the Reform of WEFT. It's for a group of
WEFT
: > : folks and others that Carl Estabrook is organizing (he is carboned on this
: > : note). I can do all the list configuration and subscription to begin with,
: > : though I might hand it off to someone else later on as the group matures.
: > :
: > : Let me know if someone else is handling mailing list creation duties these
: > days
: > : and I'll just follow up with them.
: > :
: > : Take care,
: > : R
: >
: > When I didn't hear from you for a couple days, I remembered that Dan Fischer
: > seemed to be stepping in to do the sysadmin work and that you seemed to have
: > been stepping back from these duties. So I e-mailed Dan as follows:
: >
: > ----- Original Message -----
: > From: "Randall Cotton" <recotton at earthlink.net>
: > To: "dan blah" <dan.blah at gmail.com>
: > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 11:13 PM
: > Subject: Fw: new mailing list for chambana.net
: >
: >
: > : Hi Dan,
: > :
: > : I thought I'd check with you on this. I requested a new mailing list from
Zach
: > a
: > : couple days ago, but come to think of it, my impression is that Zach is
: > pulling
: > : away from sysadmin stuff on the IMC server (I've not heard back from him)
and
: > : you seem to be stepping in. So perhaps you're the right person to send
this
: > : request to. Can you help?
: > :
: > : Thanks
: > : R
: > :
: > :
: > : ----- Original Message -----
: > : From: "Randall Cotton" <recotton at earthlink.net>
: > : To: "Zachary C. Miller" <zach at chambana.net>
: > : Cc: "Carl Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>
: > : Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 6:03 PM
: > : Subject: new mailing list for chambana.net
: > :
: > :
: > : : Hi Zach,
: > : :
: > : : Hope all is well with you.
: > : :
: > : : Could you initialize a new mailman mailing list on lists.chambana.net?
The
: > : list
: > : : name is "crow" - Committee for the Reform of WEFT. It's for a group of
WEFT
: > : : folks and others that Carl Estabrook is organizing (he is carboned on
this
: > : : note). I can do all the list configuration and subscription to begin
with,
: > : : though I might hand it off to someone else later on as the group
matures.
: > : :
: > : : Let me know if someone else is handling mailing list creation duties
these
: > : days
: > : : and I'll just follow up with them.
: > : :
: > : : Take care,
: > : : R
: > : :
: > : :
: >
: > Dan then responded graciously by creating the list and sending the following
: > response, which he copied to you:
: >
: > ----- Original Message -----
: > From: "dan blah" <dan.blah at gmail.com>
: > To: "Randall Cotton" <recotton at earthlink.net>
: > Cc: "Zachary C. Miller" <zach at chambana.net>
: > Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 8:17 AM
: > Subject: Re: Fw: new mailing list for chambana.net
: >
: >
: > : Hey Randall,
: > : no problem... you should recieve a notice from the mail server shortly
: > : after this email with login information.
: > : On 6/4/06, Randall Cotton <recotton at earthlink.net> wrote:
: > : > Hi Dan,
: > : >
: > : > I thought I'd check with you on this. I requested a new mailing list
from
: > Zach a
: > : > couple days ago, but come to think of it, my impression is that Zach is
: > pulling
: > : > away from sysadmin stuff on the IMC server (I've not heard back from
him)
: > and
: > : > you seem to be stepping in. So perhaps you're the right person to send
this
: > : > request to. Can you help?
: > : >
: > : > Thanks
: > : > R
: > : >
: > : >
: > : > ----- Original Message -----
: > : > From: "Randall Cotton" <recotton at earthlink.net>
: > : > To: "Zachary C. Miller" <zach at chambana.net>
: > : > Cc: "Carl Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>
: > : > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 6:03 PM
: > : > Subject: new mailing list for chambana.net
: > : >
: > : >
: > : > : Hi Zach,
: > : > :
: > : > : Hope all is well with you.
: > : > :
: > : > : Could you initialize a new mailman mailing list on lists.chambana.net?
The
: > : > list
: > : > : name is "crow" - Committee for the Reform of WEFT. It's for a group of
: > WEFT
: > : > : folks and others that Carl Estabrook is organizing (he is carboned on
this
: > : > : note). I can do all the list configuration and subscription to begin
with,
: > : > : though I might hand it off to someone else later on as the group
matures.
: > : > :
: > : > : Let me know if someone else is handling mailing list creation duties
these
: > : > days
: > : > : and I'll just follow up with them.
: > : > :
: > : > : Take care,
: > : > : R
: > : > :
: > : > :
: > : >
: > : >
: > :
: > :
: > : --
: > : Daniel
: >
: > Zach, you say that the crow list "was listed in /etc/aliases as being a
"weft"
: > list which is not the case." How is this not a WEFT list? It was requested
by
: > WEFT members for the purpose of a committee that works to forward the best
: > interests of WEFT (in the same way that, say, the Engineering Committee
does). I
: > offered to set this list up for Carl Estabrook, who is putting together the
: > Committee for the Reform of WEFT (CROW) in the same way that I offered to
set up
: > the weft-eng list last Spring for John Coleman who shepherds the Engineering
: > Committee. There wasn't a problem when I set up the weft-eng list back then.
The
: > only difference, it seems, is that "representatives of WEFT" have told you
they
: > want it removed. Who are these favored "representatives"? Did you disable
this
: > list because you or some WEFT volunteer(s) that you favor object to this
list?
: > Honestly, Zach, please step back a minute and try to view this objectively -
: > can't you see how your action here is a bit arbitrary and autocratic?
: >
: > Could you please restore the crow mailing list? And if not, could you at
least
: > be forthcoming as to why not? In particular, who has requested it be
disabled
: > and why are you heeding that request?
: >
: > Thanks
: > R
: >
: > ----- Original Message -----
: > From: "Zachary C. Miller" <zach at chambana.net>
: > To: <imc-tech at ucimc.org>
: > Cc: <c-bee1 at itg.uiuc.edu>; <carl at newsfromneptune.com>;
<recotton at earthlink.net>
: > Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:52 PM
: > Subject: "crow" email list.
: >
: >
: > : Who created the "crow" mailman email lists on chambana.net?
: > :
: > : The subscribers to this list were as follows:
: > : c-bee1 at itg.uiuc.edu
: > : carl at newsfromneptune.com
: > : recotton at earthlink.net
: > :
: > : It was listed in /etc/aliases as being a "weft" list which is not the
case.
: > :
: > : Representatives of WEFT have informed me that they did not authorize
: > : the creation of this list or it's use under their domain. Apparently
: > : the list was being advertised as crow at weft.org.
: > :
: > : Our system is extremely open because it is configured on the basis of
: > : users respecting the boundaries of other organizations that share the
: > : system. There is a cooperative strategy of respect. Rather than set up
: > : a lot of firewalls between clients we've got things pretty wide open.
: > : This list was clearly an abuse of this leniency.
: > :
: > : If someone (presumably Randall Cotton) is paying chambana.net for the
: > : right to have an email list on the server then he must advertise it as
: > : being from @lists.chambana.net OR
: > : @somedomainthatheowns.whatever....NOT as @weft.org. Only duly
: > : appointed WEFT representatives should be using an @weft.org address.
: > : If no one was paying for (or at least agreed and contracted to pay)
: > : this mailing list then it shouldn't have been created.
: > :
: > : The archives of the list have not been deleted and the list can be
: > : recreated once we straighten out the policy issues. I have removed the
: > : list from /etc/aliases and run rmlist on it.
: > :
: > : When new lists are created, the creator of the list should report
: > : creation of new lists  to imc-tech. I do not believe that happened in
: > : this case.
: > :
: > : It would be great if someone could look into how to set up virtual
: > : domains for mailman/postfix so that we can close the possibility of
: > : this kind of cross-domain address usage. It is definitely quite
: > : doable, just one more thing I don't have time to take care of.
: > :
: > : I'm eager to learn the details of this story.
: >
: >