[IMC-Tech] Re: "crow" email list.

[Zach M]

And actually, I mispoke. Barring a special arrangement with
imc-tech....if you want a list on a custom domain you need full
service hosting which is $160/year. Simple list hosting for $30/year
is only for lists @lists.chambana.net. chambana.net billing is
flexible but again the key component is that participating
organizations recognize the need to help support the service
financially.

On 6/15/06, Zachary C. Miller <zach at chambana.net> wrote:
> I disabled the list because it was the opinion of the station manager
> and the chair of the board that the list was not an official weft list
> and that the lists use of the weft.org domain constituted an abuse of
> that domain.
>
> Until/unless WEFT appoints an official liason to chambana.net (a role
> formerly served by Euan on behalf of the PR committee on behalf of the
> associates, a role eventually passed on to Jason P but from which he
> resigned), the word of the station manager and/or the chair of the
> board is the word that dictates what is official. If you don't think
> that's appropriate then perhaps that is a reform of WEFT that you can
> work for.
>
> There's no problem with you having your crow email list on
> chambana.net. But you have to sign a contract to pay $30/year for it
> just like any other independent organization (or make other
> arrangements with the tech group) and you have to host it under either
> lists.chambana.net or your own personal domain or you have to get weft
> to formally sanction the creation of the list. If you were a comittee
> chair or the designee of a committee chair of a formally sanctioned
> WEFT committee then you could probably use weft.org (again though,
> this is up to WEFT policy, not chambana.net policy).  To my knowledge
> the CROW committee is not a formally recognized committee of the
> associates or of the board. If crow is a committee of AWARE, and AWARE
> is in good standing with chambana.net, then AWARE can pay an
> additional $10/month to add an additional email list. Things with
> billing are very much in flux/limbo right now but we do expect that
> cooperative users of the service understand that they need to
> financially support the server.
>
> http://hosting.chambana.net/agreement.html
>
> If the station manager had told me that the weft-eng list was
> inappropriate, I would have disabled it. If you believe the station
> manager is overstepping authority that's an internal matter for WEFT
> to deal with, not for chambana.net to deal with.
>
> It is our naming standard that all lists actually related to WEFT
> start with the word "weft". All lists actually related to the
> prairiegreens start with "prairiegreens". All lists actually related
> to AWARE start with "peace" or "aware".
>
> In the past I've been keenly aware of who has authority in each
> organization to request changes to the service. Dan doesn't have my
> long term involvement with these organizations, so we'll probably have
> to work on formalizing relationships and this will happen in time. In
> the mean time, we're all just going to have to deal with things being
> a little ill defined and mushy for a while and do our best to get
> along. And, there's plenty of other hosting providers in the sea!
>
> On 6/14/06, Randall Cotton <recotton at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Zach writes: "I'm eager to learn the details of this story."
> >
> > I'm really not sure why you decided to disable the crow mailing list. There are
> > no details that aren't out in the open here and available to you. In fact, you
> > should have them all in e-mail sent to you.
> >
> > Here is a review:
> > I originally requested this list be created in an e-mail message to you as
> > follows:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Randall Cotton" <recotton at earthlink.net>
> > To: "Zachary C. Miller" <zach at chambana.net>
> > Cc: "Carl Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>
> > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 6:03 PM
> > Subject: new mailing list for chambana.net
> >
> >
> > : Hi Zach,
> > :
> > : Hope all is well with you.
> > :
> > : Could you initialize a new mailman mailing list on lists.chambana.net? The
> > list
> > : name is "crow" - Committee for the Reform of WEFT. It's for a group of WEFT
> > : folks and others that Carl Estabrook is organizing (he is carboned on this
> > : note). I can do all the list configuration and subscription to begin with,
> > : though I might hand it off to someone else later on as the group matures.
> > :
> > : Let me know if someone else is handling mailing list creation duties these
> > days
> > : and I'll just follow up with them.
> > :
> > : Take care,
> > : R
> >
> > When I didn't hear from you for a couple days, I remembered that Dan Fischer
> > seemed to be stepping in to do the sysadmin work and that you seemed to have
> > been stepping back from these duties. So I e-mailed Dan as follows:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Randall Cotton" <recotton at earthlink.net>
> > To: "dan blah" <dan.blah at gmail.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 11:13 PM
> > Subject: Fw: new mailing list for chambana.net
> >
> >
> > : Hi Dan,
> > :
> > : I thought I'd check with you on this. I requested a new mailing list from Zach
> > a
> > : couple days ago, but come to think of it, my impression is that Zach is
> > pulling
> > : away from sysadmin stuff on the IMC server (I've not heard back from him) and
> > : you seem to be stepping in. So perhaps you're the right person to send this
> > : request to. Can you help?
> > :
> > : Thanks
> > : R
> > :
> > :
> > : ----- Original Message -----
> > : From: "Randall Cotton" <recotton at earthlink.net>
> > : To: "Zachary C. Miller" <zach at chambana.net>
> > : Cc: "Carl Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>
> > : Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 6:03 PM
> > : Subject: new mailing list for chambana.net
> > :
> > :
> > : : Hi Zach,
> > : :
> > : : Hope all is well with you.
> > : :
> > : : Could you initialize a new mailman mailing list on lists.chambana.net? The
> > : list
> > : : name is "crow" - Committee for the Reform of WEFT. It's for a group of WEFT
> > : : folks and others that Carl Estabrook is organizing (he is carboned on this
> > : : note). I can do all the list configuration and subscription to begin with,
> > : : though I might hand it off to someone else later on as the group matures.
> > : :
> > : : Let me know if someone else is handling mailing list creation duties these
> > : days
> > : : and I'll just follow up with them.
> > : :
> > : : Take care,
> > : : R
> > : :
> > : :
> >
> > Dan then responded graciously by creating the list and sending the following
> > response, which he copied to you:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "dan blah" <dan.blah at gmail.com>
> > To: "Randall Cotton" <recotton at earthlink.net>
> > Cc: "Zachary C. Miller" <zach at chambana.net>
> > Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 8:17 AM
> > Subject: Re: Fw: new mailing list for chambana.net
> >
> >
> > : Hey Randall,
> > : no problem... you should recieve a notice from the mail server shortly
> > : after this email with login information.
> > : On 6/4/06, Randall Cotton <recotton at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > : > Hi Dan,
> > : >
> > : > I thought I'd check with you on this. I requested a new mailing list from
> > Zach a
> > : > couple days ago, but come to think of it, my impression is that Zach is
> > pulling
> > : > away from sysadmin stuff on the IMC server (I've not heard back from him)
> > and
> > : > you seem to be stepping in. So perhaps you're the right person to send this
> > : > request to. Can you help?
> > : >
> > : > Thanks
> > : > R
> > : >
> > : >
> > : > ----- Original Message -----
> > : > From: "Randall Cotton" <recotton at earthlink.net>
> > : > To: "Zachary C. Miller" <zach at chambana.net>
> > : > Cc: "Carl Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>
> > : > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 6:03 PM
> > : > Subject: new mailing list for chambana.net
> > : >
> > : >
> > : > : Hi Zach,
> > : > :
> > : > : Hope all is well with you.
> > : > :
> > : > : Could you initialize a new mailman mailing list on lists.chambana.net? The
> > : > list
> > : > : name is "crow" - Committee for the Reform of WEFT. It's for a group of
> > WEFT
> > : > : folks and others that Carl Estabrook is organizing (he is carboned on this
> > : > : note). I can do all the list configuration and subscription to begin with,
> > : > : though I might hand it off to someone else later on as the group matures.
> > : > :
> > : > : Let me know if someone else is handling mailing list creation duties these
> > : > days
> > : > : and I'll just follow up with them.
> > : > :
> > : > : Take care,
> > : > : R
> > : > :
> > : > :
> > : >
> > : >
> > :
> > :
> > : --
> > : Daniel
> >
> > Zach, you say that the crow list "was listed in /etc/aliases as being a "weft"
> > list which is not the case." How is this not a WEFT list? It was requested by
> > WEFT members for the purpose of a committee that works to forward the best
> > interests of WEFT (in the same way that, say, the Engineering Committee does). I
> > offered to set this list up for Carl Estabrook, who is putting together the
> > Committee for the Reform of WEFT (CROW) in the same way that I offered to set up
> > the weft-eng list last Spring for John Coleman who shepherds the Engineering
> > Committee. There wasn't a problem when I set up the weft-eng list back then. The
> > only difference, it seems, is that "representatives of WEFT" have told you they
> > want it removed. Who are these favored "representatives"? Did you disable this
> > list because you or some WEFT volunteer(s) that you favor object to this list?
> > Honestly, Zach, please step back a minute and try to view this objectively -
> > can't you see how your action here is a bit arbitrary and autocratic?
> >
> > Could you please restore the crow mailing list? And if not, could you at least
> > be forthcoming as to why not? In particular, who has requested it be disabled
> > and why are you heeding that request?
> >
> > Thanks
> > R
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Zachary C. Miller" <zach at chambana.net>
> > To: <imc-tech at ucimc.org>
> > Cc: <c-bee1 at itg.uiuc.edu>; <carl at newsfromneptune.com>; <recotton at earthlink.net>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:52 PM
> > Subject: "crow" email list.
> >
> >
> > : Who created the "crow" mailman email lists on chambana.net?
> > :
> > : The subscribers to this list were as follows:
> > : c-bee1 at itg.uiuc.edu
> > : carl at newsfromneptune.com
> > : recotton at earthlink.net
> > :
> > : It was listed in /etc/aliases as being a "weft" list which is not the case.
> > :
> > : Representatives of WEFT have informed me that they did not authorize
> > : the creation of this list or it's use under their domain. Apparently
> > : the list was being advertised as crow at weft.org.
> > :
> > : Our system is extremely open because it is configured on the basis of
> > : users respecting the boundaries of other organizations that share the
> > : system. There is a cooperative strategy of respect. Rather than set up
> > : a lot of firewalls between clients we've got things pretty wide open.
> > : This list was clearly an abuse of this leniency.
> > :
> > : If someone (presumably Randall Cotton) is paying chambana.net for the
> > : right to have an email list on the server then he must advertise it as
> > : being from @lists.chambana.net OR
> > : @somedomainthatheowns.whatever....NOT as @weft.org. Only duly
> > : appointed WEFT representatives should be using an @weft.org address.
> > : If no one was paying for (or at least agreed and contracted to pay)
> > : this mailing list then it shouldn't have been created.
> > :
> > : The archives of the list have not been deleted and the list can be
> > : recreated once we straighten out the policy issues. I have removed the
> > : list from /etc/aliases and run rmlist on it.
> > :
> > : When new lists are created, the creator of the list should report
> > : creation of new lists  to imc-tech. I do not believe that happened in
> > : this case.
> > :
> > : It would be great if someone could look into how to set up virtual
> > : domains for mailman/postfix so that we can close the possibility of
> > : this kind of cross-domain address usage. It is definitely quite
> > : doable, just one more thing I don't have time to take care of.
> > :
> > : I'm eager to learn the details of this story.
> >
> >
>