[IMC-Tech] Re: "crow" email list.

[Zachary C. Miller]

I disabled the list because it was the opinion of the station manager
and the chair of the board that the list was not an official weft list
and that the lists use of the weft.org domain constituted an abuse of
that domain.

Until/unless WEFT appoints an official liason to chambana.net (a role
formerly served by Euan on behalf of the PR committee on behalf of the
associates, a role eventually passed on to Jason P but from which he
resigned), the word of the station manager and/or the chair of the
board is the word that dictates what is official. If you don't think
that's appropriate then perhaps that is a reform of WEFT that you can
work for.

There's no problem with you having your crow email list on
chambana.net. But you have to sign a contract to pay $30/year for it
just like any other independent organization (or make other
arrangements with the tech group) and you have to host it under either
lists.chambana.net or your own personal domain or you have to get weft
to formally sanction the creation of the list. If you were a comittee
chair or the designee of a committee chair of a formally sanctioned
WEFT committee then you could probably use weft.org (again though,
this is up to WEFT policy, not chambana.net policy).  To my knowledge
the CROW committee is not a formally recognized committee of the
associates or of the board. If crow is a committee of AWARE, and AWARE
is in good standing with chambana.net, then AWARE can pay an
additional $10/month to add an additional email list. Things with
billing are very much in flux/limbo right now but we do expect that
cooperative users of the service understand that they need to
financially support the server.

http://hosting.chambana.net/agreement.html

If the station manager had told me that the weft-eng list was
inappropriate, I would have disabled it. If you believe the station
manager is overstepping authority that's an internal matter for WEFT
to deal with, not for chambana.net to deal with.

It is our naming standard that all lists actually related to WEFT
start with the word "weft". All lists actually related to the
prairiegreens start with "prairiegreens". All lists actually related
to AWARE start with "peace" or "aware".

In the past I've been keenly aware of who has authority in each
organization to request changes to the service. Dan doesn't have my
long term involvement with these organizations, so we'll probably have
to work on formalizing relationships and this will happen in time. In
the mean time, we're all just going to have to deal with things being
a little ill defined and mushy for a while and do our best to get
along. And, there's plenty of other hosting providers in the sea!

On 6/14/06, Randall Cotton <recotton at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Zach writes: "I'm eager to learn the details of this story."
>
> I'm really not sure why you decided to disable the crow mailing list. There are
> no details that aren't out in the open here and available to you. In fact, you
> should have them all in e-mail sent to you.
>
> Here is a review:
> I originally requested this list be created in an e-mail message to you as
> follows:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Randall Cotton" <recotton at earthlink.net>
> To: "Zachary C. Miller" <zach at chambana.net>
> Cc: "Carl Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>
> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 6:03 PM
> Subject: new mailing list for chambana.net
>
>
> : Hi Zach,
> :
> : Hope all is well with you.
> :
> : Could you initialize a new mailman mailing list on lists.chambana.net? The
> list
> : name is "crow" - Committee for the Reform of WEFT. It's for a group of WEFT
> : folks and others that Carl Estabrook is organizing (he is carboned on this
> : note). I can do all the list configuration and subscription to begin with,
> : though I might hand it off to someone else later on as the group matures.
> :
> : Let me know if someone else is handling mailing list creation duties these
> days
> : and I'll just follow up with them.
> :
> : Take care,
> : R
>
> When I didn't hear from you for a couple days, I remembered that Dan Fischer
> seemed to be stepping in to do the sysadmin work and that you seemed to have
> been stepping back from these duties. So I e-mailed Dan as follows:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Randall Cotton" <recotton at earthlink.net>
> To: "dan blah" <dan.blah at gmail.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 11:13 PM
> Subject: Fw: new mailing list for chambana.net
>
>
> : Hi Dan,
> :
> : I thought I'd check with you on this. I requested a new mailing list from Zach
> a
> : couple days ago, but come to think of it, my impression is that Zach is
> pulling
> : away from sysadmin stuff on the IMC server (I've not heard back from him) and
> : you seem to be stepping in. So perhaps you're the right person to send this
> : request to. Can you help?
> :
> : Thanks
> : R
> :
> :
> : ----- Original Message -----
> : From: "Randall Cotton" <recotton at earthlink.net>
> : To: "Zachary C. Miller" <zach at chambana.net>
> : Cc: "Carl Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>
> : Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 6:03 PM
> : Subject: new mailing list for chambana.net
> :
> :
> : : Hi Zach,
> : :
> : : Hope all is well with you.
> : :
> : : Could you initialize a new mailman mailing list on lists.chambana.net? The
> : list
> : : name is "crow" - Committee for the Reform of WEFT. It's for a group of WEFT
> : : folks and others that Carl Estabrook is organizing (he is carboned on this
> : : note). I can do all the list configuration and subscription to begin with,
> : : though I might hand it off to someone else later on as the group matures.
> : :
> : : Let me know if someone else is handling mailing list creation duties these
> : days
> : : and I'll just follow up with them.
> : :
> : : Take care,
> : : R
> : :
> : :
>
> Dan then responded graciously by creating the list and sending the following
> response, which he copied to you:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dan blah" <dan.blah at gmail.com>
> To: "Randall Cotton" <recotton at earthlink.net>
> Cc: "Zachary C. Miller" <zach at chambana.net>
> Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 8:17 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: new mailing list for chambana.net
>
>
> : Hey Randall,
> : no problem... you should recieve a notice from the mail server shortly
> : after this email with login information.
> : On 6/4/06, Randall Cotton <recotton at earthlink.net> wrote:
> : > Hi Dan,
> : >
> : > I thought I'd check with you on this. I requested a new mailing list from
> Zach a
> : > couple days ago, but come to think of it, my impression is that Zach is
> pulling
> : > away from sysadmin stuff on the IMC server (I've not heard back from him)
> and
> : > you seem to be stepping in. So perhaps you're the right person to send this
> : > request to. Can you help?
> : >
> : > Thanks
> : > R
> : >
> : >
> : > ----- Original Message -----
> : > From: "Randall Cotton" <recotton at earthlink.net>
> : > To: "Zachary C. Miller" <zach at chambana.net>
> : > Cc: "Carl Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>
> : > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 6:03 PM
> : > Subject: new mailing list for chambana.net
> : >
> : >
> : > : Hi Zach,
> : > :
> : > : Hope all is well with you.
> : > :
> : > : Could you initialize a new mailman mailing list on lists.chambana.net? The
> : > list
> : > : name is "crow" - Committee for the Reform of WEFT. It's for a group of
> WEFT
> : > : folks and others that Carl Estabrook is organizing (he is carboned on this
> : > : note). I can do all the list configuration and subscription to begin with,
> : > : though I might hand it off to someone else later on as the group matures.
> : > :
> : > : Let me know if someone else is handling mailing list creation duties these
> : > days
> : > : and I'll just follow up with them.
> : > :
> : > : Take care,
> : > : R
> : > :
> : > :
> : >
> : >
> :
> :
> : --
> : Daniel
>
> Zach, you say that the crow list "was listed in /etc/aliases as being a "weft"
> list which is not the case." How is this not a WEFT list? It was requested by
> WEFT members for the purpose of a committee that works to forward the best
> interests of WEFT (in the same way that, say, the Engineering Committee does). I
> offered to set this list up for Carl Estabrook, who is putting together the
> Committee for the Reform of WEFT (CROW) in the same way that I offered to set up
> the weft-eng list last Spring for John Coleman who shepherds the Engineering
> Committee. There wasn't a problem when I set up the weft-eng list back then. The
> only difference, it seems, is that "representatives of WEFT" have told you they
> want it removed. Who are these favored "representatives"? Did you disable this
> list because you or some WEFT volunteer(s) that you favor object to this list?
> Honestly, Zach, please step back a minute and try to view this objectively -
> can't you see how your action here is a bit arbitrary and autocratic?
>
> Could you please restore the crow mailing list? And if not, could you at least
> be forthcoming as to why not? In particular, who has requested it be disabled
> and why are you heeding that request?
>
> Thanks
> R
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Zachary C. Miller" <zach at chambana.net>
> To: <imc-tech at ucimc.org>
> Cc: <c-bee1 at itg.uiuc.edu>; <carl at newsfromneptune.com>; <recotton at earthlink.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:52 PM
> Subject: "crow" email list.
>
>
> : Who created the "crow" mailman email lists on chambana.net?
> :
> : The subscribers to this list were as follows:
> : c-bee1 at itg.uiuc.edu
> : carl at newsfromneptune.com
> : recotton at earthlink.net
> :
> : It was listed in /etc/aliases as being a "weft" list which is not the case.
> :
> : Representatives of WEFT have informed me that they did not authorize
> : the creation of this list or it's use under their domain. Apparently
> : the list was being advertised as crow at weft.org.
> :
> : Our system is extremely open because it is configured on the basis of
> : users respecting the boundaries of other organizations that share the
> : system. There is a cooperative strategy of respect. Rather than set up
> : a lot of firewalls between clients we've got things pretty wide open.
> : This list was clearly an abuse of this leniency.
> :
> : If someone (presumably Randall Cotton) is paying chambana.net for the
> : right to have an email list on the server then he must advertise it as
> : being from @lists.chambana.net OR
> : @somedomainthatheowns.whatever....NOT as @weft.org. Only duly
> : appointed WEFT representatives should be using an @weft.org address.
> : If no one was paying for (or at least agreed and contracted to pay)
> : this mailing list then it shouldn't have been created.
> :
> : The archives of the list have not been deleted and the list can be
> : recreated once we straighten out the policy issues. I have removed the
> : list from /etc/aliases and run rmlist on it.
> :
> : When new lists are created, the creator of the list should report
> : creation of new lists  to imc-tech. I do not believe that happened in
> : this case.
> :
> : It would be great if someone could look into how to set up virtual
> : domains for mailman/postfix so that we can close the possibility of
> : this kind of cross-domain address usage. It is definitely quite
> : doable, just one more thing I don't have time to take care of.
> :
> : I'm eager to learn the details of this story.
>
>