[Imc-web-editor] Re: [UCIMC-Tech] Re: [Imc-web] Re: [Imc-production] Steering Agenda Item: the IMC website

[Danielle Chynoweth]

Thank you Chris, Stephen, and Josh for your thoughtful comments.  Reading
this thread makes me happy to be involved in the IMC - not because we are
without problems - but because of the articulateness and care of the people
involved.

I would like to advocate for a few things with the website:

*Short term:*
1) The "Local Interest," "Global Newswire," and "Upcoming Events," at the
top doesn't work.  It really obscures our locally produced and featured
stories.  And a lot of it is bizarre conspiracy theory, and sometimes
outright antisemitism.  I think a right hand bar with events on top, local
wire, and then global wire would work, just like it shows on secondary
pages.

2) Past events should not display, only future ones.

3) We need to recruit more web editors.  Great local stuff gets written, but
us few editors don't see it.

*Long term:*
1) Our front page needs to show us as an organization, not only a newswire.
We should keep the newswire, with the changes above, as it, but put another
front page on it, and bring headlines onto the front, alongside specific
requests for help, targeted campaigns, and more information  about our many
programs.

2) Way too many comments get hidden.  A number of legitimate posters have
given up even trying to be part of the debate.  We have stifled debate, in
my opinion.  There, I said it.   Look at hidden comments yourself and see if
it makes sense why they got hidden.  I no longer consider the IMC website a
free speech venue.

- Danielle



On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 6:37 PM, Nicole Pion <nicole.pion at gmail.com> wrote:

> I didn't take it that way either -and I'll only make one quick comment - I
> was the person who advocated against the side bar where the "Local, Global
> and Upcoming Events" feeds used to reside.  That was a long, narrow bar and
> stories got lost if they were about 1/3 down the page.  I'm really happy
> with how Josh changed this to the top - thank you.  But, I see Chris'
> concern and perhaps we can shorten those top 3 items (like limiting to 4
> bullet points, for example).  That way the feature stories are visible, but
> we don't short-change the "Local, Global and Upcoming Events."
>
> Nicole
>
> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Stephen Fonzo <fonzo.stephen at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Josh,
>>
>> I didn't take it that way at all, and in fact, I am glad that you shared
>> your perspective and clarified these issues for us.  I often worry that the
>> things I write sound angry, too - no worries.  I just don't want people at
>> the IMC to think that it's your fault if the IMC site doesn't have
>> everything they want.  It helps that Chris has outlined specific requests.
>>
>> -Stephen
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 5:15 PM, Josh King <josh at ucimc.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry, this sounds kind of pissy now that I go back and read it. It's
>>> really just a lot of tired, unconnected thoughts. In summary, I'm sorry that
>>> the website isn't everything that it could be, I'm working on it, and I
>>> should try harder to put systems in place to include others in the process.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 01/29/2009 08:19 AM, Josh King wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Stephen, Chris,
>>>>
>>>> I just wanted to comment on a couple of things. First, I definitely want
>>>> to expand the role of other people in the day-to-day administrative and
>>>> monitoring aspects of the technical work at the IMC. It does, however,
>>>> need to be done in a way that's more careful than giving a large pool of
>>>> people root access. I can attest that even for someone like me that has
>>>> spent a huge amount of time managing our systems and has the requisite
>>>> skill set to design a large chunk of how everything fits together at the
>>>> IMC, it's not too difficult to do something that screws up something big
>>>> for everyone. The need for a careful, managed solution requires systems
>>>> to be in place and structured in such a way as to allow that kind of
>>>> careful management, and unfortunately putting those kinds of systems in
>>>> place is one thing that I've spent a colossal amount of time on over the
>>>> past year or so. I've started to reach out to certain people for them to
>>>> help take over some day-to-day tasks, and this will happen even more as
>>>> I continue to work on the IMC's websites and migrate the email server
>>>> this weekend. But for Tech at least, it's going to be pulling a small
>>>> number of people from an even smaller pool, as I don't currently have a
>>>> lot of time for training people in server administration and web design,
>>>> and so have to work with the people that I already know have the skills
>>>>
>>>> Chris, in response to your specific concerns, there was a problem this
>>>> morning that Dan fixed where the partition on the offsite server where
>>>> the website is stored filled up, and I'll be working with him to make
>>>> sure it doesn't happen again. This may be why you had the problems
>>>> you've had in 2, 4, and 5, as 2 and 5 I've never experienced. Featured
>>>> stories should be at the top, except for the logo image, top menu, and
>>>> the blocks "Local Interest," "Global Newswire," and "Upcoming Events,"
>>>> which I placed up there in response to complaints that they were too
>>>> difficult to find. It is true that there are bugs with the site,
>>>> specifically one pertaining to uploading images and another with the
>>>> WYSIWYG editor. I'm working on those and on a further redesign of the
>>>> site, as the current version is a rough upgrade to improve performance
>>>> and allow for anonymous commenting again, rather than an effort to
>>>> significantly extend the functionality of the site as it existed before.
>>>> It is true that there seems to be no "Home" link, though you can click
>>>> on the logo image to return to the front page, and now that it's been
>>>> pointed out I'll add one.
>>>>
>>>> It's clearly unacceptable for the IMC not to have a functional online
>>>> publishing presence, especially if it's felt that the design and
>>>> functionality of that presence is the main reason for lower traffic. I
>>>> should probably have been more diligent about making sure that people
>>>> interested in working on modifying the website get the shell access they
>>>> require, but that's out of only 1 or 2 people who have asked. I'm not a
>>>> great drupal developer, but since we're unlikely to have tons of drupal
>>>> developers with lots of time on their hands popping out the woodwork,
>>>> I'll try and set aside some of my other tasks and work between now and
>>>> the next steering meeting on creating another potential redesign and
>>>> improvement of the site to show.
>>>>
>>>> I'm thinking of implementing some kind of online to-do list for myself
>>>> that people can submit to. My workload has gotten to the point where I
>>>> can't always even keep track of all of the different things I have to
>>>> do, and it might provide a more centralized way to keep track of things.
>>>>
>>>> I definitely agree with Stephen about the poor level of volunteerism in
>>>> the more support or infrastructure oriented groups. Stephen and Nicole
>>>> have done a great job of trying to foster that in the Production and
>>>> Community Connections groups to some avail, me and Tech not so much.
>>>> Partly this is just because if someone comes in and says they want to
>>>> get involved doing Tech work, unless there's a specific project they
>>>> already have in mind there's not a lot I can have them do without fairly
>>>> extensive training. And just the fact that someone knows how to do
>>>> something doesn't foster the trust that I need to have before I just
>>>> hand over the keys to something that everyone in the IMC depends on. So
>>>> I've been trying to come up with a better system of doing this, and I'm
>>>> working on it, but it takes time.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, I'll try and fix up the website some more.
>>>>
>>>> On 01/29/2009 12:27 PM, Stephen Fonzo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm forwarding this to Tech and Web - not to bother Josh with
>>>>> complaints
>>>>> - but to let him know that others are thinking of ways to distribute
>>>>> his
>>>>> volunteerism to others at the IMC.
>>>>>
>>>>> Josh has significantly improved the site from its former state, in my
>>>>> opinion, though I agree with Chris that there are still problems with
>>>>> posting and accessing content. We have two approaches to making further
>>>>> improvements to the site or to other things at the IMC - a) keep
>>>>> saying,
>>>>> "I don't know - ask Josh;" or b) figuring out ways to spread tasks and
>>>>> knowledge so individuals can address needs as they arise.
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe the root problem is analogous to other working groups'
>>>>> difficulties at the IMC, namely, that for many tasks, the volunteer
>>>>> body
>>>>> of the IMC relies on one or two people. So for Tech and Web, it is
>>>>> pretty much Josh, Dan, and Mike; for Shows and Production it is pretty
>>>>> much me; for WRFU it is pretty much Noel; etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Beyond everyone being strapped and focused heavily on keeping the
>>>>> building, raising money, and paying bills (all too common non-profit
>>>>> challenges), there are two reasons for these scenarios:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Volunteerism is generally weak at the IMC when it comes to anything
>>>>> that is not directly activist (in other words, the media and tech
>>>>> stuff). Books to Prisoners, Print, AWARE, Finance, and CUCPJ are all
>>>>> strong, focus on business/specific agenda, and rally around issues and
>>>>> deadlines. Perhaps the media/art-oriented groups need to learn from
>>>>> these other groups (who happen to have an older, more serious and
>>>>> experienced demographic, which is probably a factor). I will admit that
>>>>> due to the presence of VISTAs and especially the development work of
>>>>> Nicole, membership activity is indeed improving in some of the other
>>>>> groups, and we are starting once more to provide more in the space
>>>>> (Shows and Librarians are making great progress for such small groups
>>>>> and for such spotty histories). Will this continue and are our members
>>>>> aware?
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) Access, especially to Tech and Web infrastructure, is limited,
>>>>> creating a cycle in which Josh or Dan are often the ONLY people to
>>>>> contact about a given issue. As long as they are okay with this
>>>>> arrangement, I don't think we need to change the way we work - after
>>>>> all, I don't think Josh wants extra work by having to clean up messes
>>>>> that others less qualified than himself make while doing things on the
>>>>> server or databases. It is apparent that IMC members (myself included)
>>>>> cannot do all the things that Josh or Dan do, when it comes to
>>>>> web/internet work, but I don't know how much of that is due to our lack
>>>>> of skills, lack of access/mutual training, or both. I know it's tricky,
>>>>> because security is of top concern when dealing with technology. Access
>>>>> is less of a problem with Shows, Production, and WRFU, but I still get
>>>>> the impression that along with Web and Tech our work is considered
>>>>> either too specialized, difficult, unimportant or undesirable for
>>>>> volunteers to do - or even that we hold less clout or interest because
>>>>> our work supports activism and artistry but is not directly activist or
>>>>> artistic. This especially pains me when I am here to train and openly
>>>>> offer tutoring to those who would clearly rather just have me, Nicole,
>>>>> or someone else do the work.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is clear to me that we need to expand, even by a little,
>>>>> volunteerism
>>>>> and access to active members that are deemed trustworthy. I acknowledge
>>>>> that a lot of this will be difficult because it requires a shift in the
>>>>> culture of the IMC, which I do not think is "unhealthy" as one member
>>>>> said recently, but is perhaps stale at the moment. Josh, Nicole, and I
>>>>> are here to increase the sustainability and capacity of the
>>>>> organization(s) we work with, but I feel that there will be a vacuum if
>>>>> any one of us leaves, and I am concerned that we (and others at the
>>>>> IMC)
>>>>> are being relied upon rather than utilized. That would be fine if
>>>>> everyone at the IMC received a salary or stipend, or had clearly
>>>>> defined
>>>>> positions and authority, but it contradicts the consensus, volunteer,
>>>>> anarchist structures touted by members who have been here longer.
>>>>>
>>>>> I detest argument for argument's sake, and I have not said any of this
>>>>> to start a debate, to revel in exercising critical muscle, or to
>>>>> pretend
>>>>> that I know any better than anyone else how to proceed from here. I
>>>>> want
>>>>> to avoid the petty personal and intellectual politics that too often
>>>>> constrain groups like ours and divert conversations to the theoretical,
>>>>> and I merely make these suggestions so we can act practically upon
>>>>> them.
>>>>> We need to think about sustainability through shared institutional
>>>>> knowledge.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Stephen
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 10:28 AM, Christopher Evans
>>>>> <caevans2 at hotmail.com <mailto:caevans2 at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> By no means is this criticism of the IMC website intended to
>>>>> criticize the excellent effort and contributions of Josh King, who
>>>>> has worked very hard to maintain and upgrade the IMC's website.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, as one of the journalists who still regularly uses the
>>>>> site, I have to make a few comments about my current experiences
>>>>> with the site.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) *hardly anyone ever posts* articles anymore, and hardly anyone
>>>>> ever comments to the few articles that do get posted. Shortly after
>>>>> the Brian Chesley articles posted by Brian Dolinar in March of 2008,
>>>>> the comments to articles have dropped dramatically. It used to be
>>>>> that a Brian Dolinar article could inspire 60 or more comments to an
>>>>> article. The inability to post Annonymously may have affected that,
>>>>> but even after the re-installment of Annonymous posting capability;
>>>>> hardly a response is given to what people post.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) The site has become *difficult to see the featured articles*.
>>>>> They are not posted at the top of the page, but rather, are placed
>>>>> at the bottom of the page after the long scroll of international
>>>>> links to other IMC sites. To me, those links seem secondary for a
>>>>> site that offers local stories.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) there is no *"Home" link *to get you back to the original page
>>>>> after you've navigated somewhere on the site.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4) the site is *unreliable*. This morning I was able to log on, but
>>>>> when I tried to respond to a comment, even though I was able to type
>>>>> in my text, the site would not upload it, and stayed in some kind of
>>>>> holding pattern. Finally, I tried to start over and now I can't even
>>>>> get to the IMC website.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5) there is *no side to side scroll bar *for the *calendar*. I can't
>>>>> see what is happening on the weekends at the IMC.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know Josh has tons of other duties and I know he has been very
>>>>> diligent in trying to improve the site for us. It's probably
>>>>> unrealistic for us to expect one person has the time to do the daily
>>>>> maintenance and designing of the site.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can only say that if the above is true for others, it might
>>>>> explain why one of the most dynamic sites for local news has become
>>>>> a silent graveyard for old articles.
>>>>>
>>>>> The IMC needs to decide if a website remains a viable avenue for
>>>>> news reporting and local IMC announcements, and if so, we need to
>>>>> make it as user-friendly as possible. If we have neither the time
>>>>> nor inclination to maintain this site, I will form my own blog on
>>>>> Illini Pundit and Smile Politely and assume that the tremendous
>>>>> history of the IMC website from 2003-2008 is over.
>>>>> thanks for listening to my rant.
>>>>> On behalf of Local Yocal,
>>>>> chris the building guy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Hotmail(R) goes where you go. On a PC, on the Web, on your phone. See
>>>>> how.
>>>>> <
>>>>> http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/versatility.aspx#mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_WL_HM_versatility_121208
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Imc-production mailing list
>>>>> Imc-production at lists.chambana.net
>>>>> <mailto:Imc-production at lists.chambana.net>
>>>>> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/imc-production
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Stephen Fonzo
>>>>> Media Training Advisor
>>>>> AmeriCorps CTC VISTA
>>>>> Urbana-Champaign Independent Media Center
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> IMC-Web mailing list
>>>>> IMC-Web at lists.ucimc.org
>>>>> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/imc-web
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Josh King
>>> --
>>> "I am an Anarchist not because I believe Anarchism is the final goal, but
>>> because there is no such thing as a final goal." -Rudolf Rocker
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Stephen Fonzo
>> Media Training Advisor
>> AmeriCorps CTC VISTA
>> Urbana-Champaign Independent Media Center
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IMC-Tech mailing list
>> IMC-Tech at lists.ucimc.org
>> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/imc-tech
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Nicole Pion
> Outreach and Development Adviser
>
> AmeriCorps CTC VISTA
> Urbana-Champaign Independent Media Center
>
> _______________________________________________
> IMC-Web mailing list
> IMC-Web at lists.ucimc.org
> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/imc-web
>
>
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