[Imc-web] Jack Ryan 19 May
Paul Bengt Riismandel
p-riism at ad.uiuc.edu
Mon May 19 13:39:53 CDT 2003
Mike,
Your points are well taken. I guess I start to wonder if we shouldn't move towards banning him outright, since he is such a nuisance and we (mostly, you, Mike) have to spend so much time monitoring his bullshit.
I probably didn't explain myself well, but my point is really more about how much investment we have to put in to police this one guy and pick through to find the appropriate and inappropriate posts. There's a tipping point where despite someone's attempts to keep his comments decorous, the times that he steps over the line become numerous enough to outweight them. Perhaps we're getting close to that point?
Maybe it's time he got an ultimatium? Something like: "stay on topic, don't be insulting -- else step over the line and we'll ban your ass forever." I'm not in favor of giving him more rope. He can bitch and moan all he wants about "censorship," but just like anyone else, he can present himself in person at the IMC and argue his case, or even just use an e-mail address so that we can have some kind of dialogue. But barring that, we can only ask him to behave and ban him if he won't.
I'm not pushing for any one action, but I do think our collective patience is running thin.
--Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Lehman [mailto:rebelmike at earthlink.net]
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 12:40 PM
To: imc at ucimc.org
Cc: imc-web at ucimc.org
Subject: Re: [Imc-web] Jack Ryan 19 May
Paul,
If there was any actual content beyond the insults, I would agree with
you. I think I've been pretty choosy about what of Jack's stuff has
ended up hidden. In this case, like the others of his that have been
hidden without any objecting comments in the past month or so, there was
not even typically been an attempt at anything other than, as Zach
described it, "a troll and a juvenile masturbation joke. Content-free."
In _many_ other cases, Jack has made at least a weak attempt to make an
argument or present some content, along with his usual insults. These
have all been left up.
I have defended his right to use IMC resources to present his views (as
opposed to engage in behavior that we have an existing policy against.)
A number of people associated with the IMC have questioned why we
haven't acted more aggressively in dealing with his rather obvious
purpose here, which is nothing but trying to be as disruptive as
possible. The comment from Melodye that we should be even more cautious
in dealing with his obvious provocations would bear paying attention to,
except that Jack was already been complaining about censorship before
his first post was hidden. He is going to cry crocodile tears in any
case. What we do will have no effect one way or the other on his making
this ridiculous claim.
I should also note that hiding his posts that "are baldly and clearly
inappropriate, whose purpose seems clearly to be other than informing,
educating or adding to a public discourse..." has moderated his behavior
in the past, resulting in his at least trying to be a little bit
on-topic, which is the best that can be said about his posting behavior
in any case. My own feeling is that we gave him far too much rope when
he first arrived here, in the "Baring Witness" thread, which only
encouraged him to expand his stock in trade.
The real problem isn't any individual post of his, but the atmosphere
that tolerating them creates. We have managed to maintain a relatively
high level of political discourse on our IMC and it is a big reason for
the respect and credibility that our IMC receives, both locally and
network-wide. Putting up with Jack when he deals out nothing but
trolling insults tends to drag us down into the mud and inspire others
to react in kind. And why should they not, if we put up with him acting
in this way? I wish to note that I've had to hide only _one_ post from
anyone else (by Anon) that has descended to Jack's level since we began
judiciously enforcing this already existing policy. The general level of
decorum here in regards to his provocations demonstrates that our
flexible, yet clear-cut, policies have significantly contributed to this
state of affairs.
I also believe that if we let him freely practice his trolling art here,
the voices already raised to simply ban him will also increase from the
membership. I think we would all prefer that we not have to take that
step or go through the process leading up to it, even if such a proposal
should fail. I believe that the present comparatively lighht-handed
application of existing policy addresses the concerns of those who would
prefer that he be completely gone, while staying strictly within the
bounds of already established policy.
I also wonder which of his other hidden posts we should not also unhide,
despite there being no objections rasied to any previous application of
this policy, if we choose to give him more rope, of which he already has
plenty? Enforcing this policy forces him to at least make the attempt at
making an argument, even if it is to simply dismiss the well-reasoned
arguments of others while peddling his false certitudes. I don't believe
we should give him the easy out of simply hurling insults when he
doesn't feel like actually writing anything with content. He has plenty
of opportunity to work his insults into his content. He takes this route
most of the time anyway and we let him get away with that. To accept a
lower standard is too close to "anything goes" for me.
Mike Lehman
Paul Bengt Riismandel wrote:
> I don't know, I think it's pushing it to hide it. So much of what's on
> the site can be hidden under this clause depending on interpretation,
> and I'm not convinced this post goes far enough.
>
> Jack's a pain in the ass, but I'm not sure it's worth the time and
> effort to hide his posts unless they're outrageous.
>
> --paul
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mlehman [mailto:mlehman at students.uiuc.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 11:13 PM
> To: imc at ucimc.org
> Cc: imc-web at ucimc.org
> Subject: [Imc-web] Jack Ryan 19 May
>
> Hidden:
> <http://www.ucimc.org/newswire/display/12036/index.php>
> Comment to:
> <http://www.ucimc.org/newswire/display/11991/index.php>
> Off-Topic Post: "posts that are baldly and clearly inappropriate, whose
> purpose seems clearly to be other than informing, educating or adding to
> a
> public discourse."
>
> Mike Lehman
_______________________________________________
Imc-web mailing list
Imc-web at lists.cu.groogroo.com
http://lists.cu.groogroo.com/cgi-bin/listinfo/imc-web
More information about the IMC-Web
mailing list