[Peace-discuss] Chomsky-Bennett "debate" transcript

[David Green]

AMERICAN MORNING WITH PAULA ZAHN
Interview with Noam Chomsky, Bill Bennett
Aired May 30, 2002 - 08:33   ET 

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS
FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS
FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: They are two best selling
authors with two very different takes on terrorism. In
his book, "9-11," Noam Chomsky accuses the United
States of being a terrorist state. He says the war in
Afghanistan is wrong, states that in recent history,
America has committed acts of terrorism, and maintains
that America's foreign policy is hypocritical. 

In Bill Bennett's "Why We Fight," he says the war on
terror is morally just. He maintains that democracy
and human rights are America's noblest exports, and
that we must be prepared to respond to anti-American
critics. Talk about a war of words. 

Well, Bill Bennett joins us now from New York, and
Noam Chomsky joins us from Boston. Welcome, gentlemen.
Great to have both of you with us. 

BILL BENNETT, AUTHOR, "WHY WE FIGHT": Thank you.

NOAM CHOMSKY, AUTHOR, "9-11": Hello.

ZAHN: I would like to start off, professor, by reading
a very small excerpt from your book where you write
that nothing can justify crimes such as those of
September 11, but we can think of the United States as
an innocent victim only if we adopt the convenient
path of ignoring the record of its actions and those
of its allies, which are, after all, hardly a secret.
What are you referring to here? 

CHOMSKY: Well, for example, the United States happens
to be the only state in the world that has been
condemned by the World Court for international
terrorism, would have been condemned by the Security
Council, except that it vetoed the resolution. This
referred to the U.S. terrorist war against Nicaragua,
the court ordered the United States to desist and pay
reparations. The U.S. responded by immediately
escalating the crimes, including first official orders
to attack what are called soft targets -- undefended
civilian targets. This is massive terrorism. It is by
no means the worst, and it continues right to the
present, so for example... 

ZAHN: Bill Bennett, your response to what the
professor said, and then we will let him pick up from
there. 

BENNETT: It's quite extraordinary to hear a supposedly
learned person call the United States a leading
terrorist nation, one of the leading terrorist nations
in the world. It's false and very treacherous
teaching. In the situation Mr. Chomsky is talking
about, of course, the United States supported the
Contras in Nicaragua. The condemnation or judgment by
the World Court was not that it was terrorism, but
that we supported some unlawful activity. However,
when there were free elections in Nicaragua, and Mrs.
Chamorro took office, all the lawsuits, all the
complaints against the United States were dropped,
when you had a democratically elected country. 

We have done more good for more people than any
country in the history of the world. What I want to
know of Mr. Chomsky is if he believes we are a leading
terrorist state, he is obviously welcome in the United
States, why do you choose to live, sir, in a terrorist
nation? 

CHOMSKY: First of all, the World Court condemned the
United States for what it called "the unlawful use of
force and violation of treaties." 

BENNETT: Which is not terrorism. 

CHOMSKY: That's international terrorism. 

BENNETT: No, it is not. 

CHOMSKY: Yes, it is exactly international terrorism.

BENNETT: No, it is not, sir. 

CHOMSKY: Furthermore, the escalation to attack
undefended civilian targets is just a classic
illustration of terrorism. And furthermore, it
continues right to the present, as I was saying, so
for example... 

BENNETT: It's quite...

CHOMSKY: May I continue? 

BENNETT: Sure. 

CHOMSKY: In the late 1990s, some of the worst
terrorist atrocities in the world were what the
Turkish government itself called state terror, namely
massive atrocities, 80 percent of the arms coming from
the United States, millions of refugees, tens of
thousands of people killed, hideous repression, that's
international terror, and we can go on and on. 

(CROSSTALK) 

ZAHN: Before you go further, let's give Bill a chance
to respond to respond to the Turkish string (ph) of
this -- go ahead, Bill. 

BENNETT: America responsible for hideous repression
and refugees? Why is it, Mr. Chomsky, whenever there
are refugees in the world, they flee to the United
States rather than from the United States? Why is it
on balance, Mr. Chomsky, that this nation, when it
opens its gates, has people rushing in? Why is it that
it is this nation the world looks to for support and
encouragement and help? We rebuilt Europe twice in
this century, after two world wars. We liberated
Europe from Nazi tyranny. We have liberated Eastern
Europe in the last few years from communist tyranny,
and now we are engaged in a battle against something
else. 

When we went in to Kabul, even the "New York Times" in
mid- November showed pictures of people smiling at the
presence of American troops, because this country was
once again a force for freedom, and a force for
liberation. Have we done some terrible things in our
history? Of course we have. But as Senator Moynihan
has pointed out, our people find out about them from
reading the newspapers and watching television. When
you look at this nation on balance, in terms of what
good it has done and what bad it has done, it is
grossly irresponsible to talk about this country as a
terrorist nation, and to suggest, as do you in your
book, that there is justification, moral
justification, for what happened on 9/11. For that,
sir, you really should be ashamed. 

CHOMSKY: You should be ashamed for lying about what is
in the book, because nothing is said -- in fact, the
quote was just given, nothing can justify the
terrorist attacks of September 11. You just heard the
quote, if you want to falsify it, that's your
business. 

BENNETT: No -- well, I...

CHOMSKY: Just a minute -- did I interrupt you? Did I
interrupt you? 

ZAHN: Professor, let me jump in here, but implicit in
that -- aren't you saying that you understand why
America was targeted? 

CHOMSKY: Do I understand? Yes, so does the U.S.
intelligence services, so does all of scholarship. I
mean, we can ignore it if we like, and therefore lead
to further terrorist attacks, or we can try to
understand. What Mr. Bennett said is about half true.
The United States has done some very good things in
the world, and that does not change the fact that the
World Court was quite correct in condemning the United
States as an international terrorist state, nor do the
atrocities in Turkey in the last few years -- they are
not obviated by the fact that there are other good
things that happen. Sure. That's -- you are correct
when you say good things have happened, but if we are
not total hypocrites, in the sense of the gospels, we
will pay attention to our own crimes. For one reason,
because that's elementary morality -- elementary
morality. For another thing, because we mitigate them.


ZAHN: All right, professor, I'm going to have to leave
it there with you, Bill Bennett, and we have got to
leave it to about 20 seconds. 

BENNETT: It there any nation that acknowledges its
errors and its sins and its crimes and the things it
has done that are not consistent with its principles
more than the United States? No, there is not. 

This is also the man, just let it be said for the
record, who said that the reports of atrocities by the
Khmer Rouge were grossly exaggerated. This is the man
who said when we engaged the Soviet Union that we...

CHOMSKY: No, it's not. But that is...

BENNETT: I didn't interrupt you -- that we were
continuing the Nazi effort against Russia. Go through
the Chomsky work, line by line, argument by argument,
and you will see this is a man who has made a career
out of hating America and out of trashing the record
of this country. Of course, there is a mixed record in
this country, why do you choose to live in this
terrorist nation, Mr. Chomsky? 

CHOMSKY: I don't. I choose to live in what I think is
the greatest country in the world, which is committing
horrendous terrorist acts and should stop. 

BENNETT: I think you should say greatest -- I think
you should say greatest a little more often. 

CHOMSKY: If you want to be a hypocrite...

(CROSSTALK) 

BENNETT: I think you should acknowledge its virtues a
little more often, Mr. Chomsky.

CHOMSKY: And you should acknowledge its crimes. 

BENNETT: I do. Read my book. You will see it. 

CHOMSKY: No, you never do. No, sorry. And if you want
to... 

BENNETT: I am reading other people's books. 

CHOMSKY: If you want to know what I say, do not listen
to Mr. Bennett's falsifications of which I just gave
an example. 

BENNETT: Read both books.

ZAHN: Gentlemen, we are going to have to cut off both
of you there. Noam Chomsky, Bill Bennett, thank you
for both of your thoughts, and I think probably the
best course of action anybody can take out there, is
buy both of your books so they can make their own
judgment. 

BENNETT: That's fine.

ZAHN: Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time.

CHOMSKY: Yes.

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