[Peace-discuss] Flag flap

[Alfred Kagan]

I don't think I can explain it any more.  Perhaps someone else would 
like to take this on?


At 2:59 PM -0600 11/10/03, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
>You insist that Dean and Clinton are racists.  What can that mean? Neither
>holds conscious contempt for others, based on skin color.  You say their
>racism is "unconscious."  Do you mean something like the Freudian sense in
>which all men are parricides?  I would think that our real political
>problems are things like the objectively racist polices of the Clinton
>administration, and they are related to the class issues that Dean's
>comment adumbrated.  --CGE
>
>
>On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Alfred Kagan wrote:
>
>>  Carl,
>>
>>  The crux of the issue is when you write that "-- of course neither is
>>  a racist in any serious sense."  Here is where we have a fundamental
>>  disagreement.  We can easily see the small numbers of people like
>>  Matt Hales and KKK followers, but it is harder to see the huge
>>  numbers of people who are basically quiet about their racism.  Many
>>  folks genuinely believe they are not racists and can't understand why
>>  they get involved in such issues.  Here are think Dean is a perfect
>>  example.  It is the deep racism within the structure and ethos of
>>  society that is much more important and serious than the KKK variety.
>>
>>
>>
>>  At 2:10 PM -0600 11/10/03, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
>>  >So, you're saying that, since "most white Americans are socialized to be
>>  >racists," Dean and Clinton are both "unconscious racists"?
>>  >
>>  >I doubt there's much to choose between the personal attitudes of the two
>>  >-- of course neither is a racist in any serious sense. But the Clinton
>>  >administration's policies were objectively racist, in that they treated
>>  >inequably groups that can be described by color -- e.g., on welfare
>>  >reform, incarceration, drug laws.  It's true that the discrimination did
>>  >not usually arise because of color (rather class), but there were many
>>  >more black women in prison at the end of the Clinton administration than
>>  >at the beginning; altho' whites and blacks were using drugs at roughly the
>>  >same rate, those imprisoned for drugs in the 90s were overwhelmingly
>>  >black; and altho' there are many more poor white people than poor black
>>  >people in the US, a larger proportion of blacks were injured by Clinton's
>>  >revocation of the New Deal in regard to welfare.
>>  >
>>  >Under those circumstances, blacks rallying to Clinton were as misguided as
>>  >feminists who did so -- and on matters of gender, his objectionable
>>  >personal attitudes were hardly in doubt (and accusations of rape never
>>  >resolved).
>>  >
>>  >But it's straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel to suggest that Dean
>>  >has slipped and said a Bad Word while ignoring that he was actually
>>  >nodding at -- the sort of reforms (opposed by the Clinton administration)
>>  >that are necessary:
>>  >
>>  >"White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag
>>  >decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't
>>  >have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."
>>  >
>>  >(I do admit that it's probably only campaign rhetoric on Dean's part.)
>>  >
>>  >--CGE
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Alfred Kagan wrote:
>>  >
>>  >>  Most white Americans are socialized to be racists.  We have to work to
>>  >>  get rid of the racism we learn as we grow up.  Many African-Americans
>>  >>  seem to have related well to Clinton.  Perhaps he learned more about
>>  >>  racism than some of his peers, and perhaps people picked up on that.
>>  >>  But Clinton often showed promise on issues.  Unfortunately he rarely
>>  >>  fulfilled the promise.
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>  >Would you say Bill Clinton was an "unconscious racist," too? 
>>That sounds
>>  >>  >to me like the sort of "thought-crime" described in 1984.
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  >Dean was not embracing the Confederate flag.  He was awkwardly and
>>  >>  >jocularly describing a type, with a description he'd used 
>>before.  And he
>  > >>  >was asserting his wish to attract people of this type to vote for him
>>  >>  >rather than for Republicans by (he wouldn't say this) social democratic
>>  >>  >policies.
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  >You don't seem to have posted your comment to the list.  Do 
>>you mean it to
>>  >>  >remain private?  --CGE
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  >On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Alfred Kagan wrote:
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  >  > Trying to cut through this debate is difficult.  We are not
>>  >>  >>  communicating very well. Dean is not an overt racist, but he is an
>>  >>  >>  unconscious racist. He may want to overcome this but he has not
>>  >>  >>  succeeded. Black people can see this for what it is. AWARE needs to
>>  >>  >>  understand this dynamic.
>>  >>  >  >
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>  --
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>  Al Kagan
>>  >>  African Studies Bibliographer and Professor of Library Administration
>>  >>  Africana Unit, Room 328
>>  >>  University of Illinois Library
>>  >  > 1408 W. Gregory Drive
>>  >>  Urbana, IL 61801, USA
>>  >>
>>  >>  tel. 217-333-6519
>>  >>  fax. 217-333-2214
>>  >>  e-mail. akagan at uiuc.edu
>>  >>
>>  >>  _______________________________________________
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>>  >>
>>  >>
>>
>>
>>  --
>>
>>
>>  Al Kagan
>>  African Studies Bibliographer and Professor of Library Administration
>>  Africana Unit, Room 328
>>  University of Illinois Library
>>  1408 W. Gregory Drive
>>  Urbana, IL 61801, USA
>>
>>  tel. 217-333-6519
>>  fax. 217-333-2214
>>  e-mail. akagan at uiuc.edu
>>


-- 


Al Kagan
African Studies Bibliographer and Professor of Library Administration
Africana Unit, Room 328
University of Illinois Library
1408 W. Gregory Drive
Urbana, IL 61801, USA

tel. 217-333-6519
fax. 217-333-2214
e-mail. akagan at uiuc.edu