[Peace-discuss] A Question about the Puppet

[C. G. Estabrook]

[An interesting discussion of this matter from a Green party list.  --CGE]

Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 11:26:59 -0600
From: John Paul Schmit <jpschmit at life.uiuc.edu>

  In a bold move that shows us what the difference between Democrats and
Republicans is, John Kerry backed an amendment to the Massachusetts
Constitution that prohibiits gay marriage but allows for civil unions.  
This is reported by the Boston Globe here:

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2004/02/26/kerry_backs_state_ban_on_gay_marriage/

This measure seems to be very similar to that supported by George Bush on
a federal level.

So what is the difference between the two parties?

Republicans believe that bigotry should be in the federal constituion,
whereas Democrats feel that bigotry is the responsibility of each
individual state.


Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:14:20 -0600
From: Brian Ritzel <ritzel at prairienet.org>

The two measures are not the same at all.  As the article you site clearly
states, Kerry wants it "ensured that same-sex couples have access to all
legal rights that married couples receive."  The FMA, however, would
clearly preclude that:

"Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man
and a woman. Neither this Constitution or the constitution of any state,
nor state or federal law, shall be construed to require that marital
status or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon unmarried couples
or groups."

(Note in particular the phrase, "legal incidents thereof.")

So, in short, GWB wants to deny homosexuals actual substantive rights that
are enjoyed by married heterosexuals; whereas Kerry wants to deny
homosexuals use of the word "marriage".  The later may be a cowardly
position, but it is hardly equivalent with the former.

This analysis ignores the "full faith and credit" clause of the USConst.
  This is precisely why the GOPers are so itchy to amendment it.

This is the second correction I have had to make in as many days on this
subject by people who seem primarily interested in using this issue as a
bat with which to bash Democrats over the head, which leads me to ask the
following question:  Is there any room in the IGP for people who don't
take every opportunity possible to demonize Democrats?


Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:33:07 -0600
From: John Paul Schmit <jpschmit at life.uiuc.edu>

  I have to disagree with your interpretation. You quote the federal level
amendment as:

> "Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a
> man and a woman. Neither this Constitution or the constitution of any
> state, nor state or federal law, shall be construed to require that
> marital status or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon
> unmarried couples or groups."

Note that is say "constured to require that marital status ..." it does
not fordid states from "conferring legal indcidents" of marriage on same
sex couples it just says that states and the feds are not required to do
so. Bush has specifically stated that civil unions are a state matter.  
Only the term "marriage" is forbidden. Bush has been criticized in
conservative circles for signing on to this version of the federal
amendment, becuase it only denies gay couples the title "marriage" but
states can still grant the benefits. In fact, the same judge who made big
news earlier for putting the ten commandments in an Alabama court room is
being heavily recurited by the Constitution party (a Christian right
party) to run against Bush, and he has made statements indicating he is
sereiously considering accepting.

So, I stick with what I said before, it is bascially the same bill,

John Paul

PS. As to not demonizing the democrats, my local works with democrats all
the time. But I have gotten a lot of flack from folks who think we must
have someone other than Bush in office, so we must back the democrat no
matter what they say or believe. I think that my experience is not unique.  
So, if folks are pointing out Kerrys flaws on this list, it is probably in
response to similar converstations they are having off list.

***