[Peace-discuss] RE: The Christmas He Dreamed for All of Us
Phil Stinard
pstinard at hotmail.com
Thu Dec 29 10:24:55 CST 2005
>Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 10:46:16 -0600
>From: "Paul M. King" <pmking at uiuc.edu>
>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] The Christmas He Dreamed for All of Us To:
>Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>Message-ID: <ea7c4da3.70ca9c5f.81b3200 at expms3.cites.uiuc.edu>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>These are some of my personal thoughts on Christianity. I hope
>it helps some of our Good Christians understand how many
>people of their faith are viewed. Please don't take it as an
>attack.
Thanks for your comments, Paul. I already understand how many Christians
are viewed by others--I used to have the same point of view as you do. I
don't take your comments as an attack, I take them as an opportunity for
enlightenment.
>>Why the desire to erode Christmas of its spirituality
>>for the secular popular sector?
>
>I don't believe most people want to erode Christmas of its
>spirituality. The problem with the Christians I knew when I
>was growing up, though, is that they do not recognize
>spirituality outside of Christianity.
I don't think the fact that Christians view Christianity as the only way to
salvation is a "problem." It's a belief. We have the right to our beliefs.
Calling it a "problem" means that you have a "solution," which if taken to
its logical end, would imply persecution.
>>We have to decide whether or not we are willing to build
>>coalition with believers that Christ is the one and only
>>Messiah, Savior of the World. We have to decide whether
>>we want our movement for social justice/ peace/ etc to
>>be completely marxist-materialist or not.
>
>I don't know how we can or should build a coalition with
>groups of people who believe "that Christ is the one and only
>Messiah, Savior of the World." These people seem to be
>fanatics to me. And rejecting such groups of fundamentalists
>does not reduce the social justice movement to a materialist
>position.
I really appreciate your honesty here, Paul. I've been talking with the
people in the AWARE church "presence" group, discussing whether they really
want dialogue or coalition-building with the churches they are protesting in
front of. My impression from the long, drawn-out discussion on the UCIMC
web-site, is that they do not. They seem to have a view of Christianity
more in tune with yours. The sad thing is, I'm here, I'm a Christian, I'm
in favor of peace, I'm interested in dialogue, real dialogue, and no one has
taken me up on it. However, you choose to brand me a fanatic, worthy of
rejection, and if your views are similar to those of other AWARE members, it
explains a lot.
On the issue of materialism, would you agree that rejecting fundamentalists
reduces the social justice movement to a humanist position? If God is
removed from the equation, doesnt that just leave humanistic reasons for
supporting social justice?
>Why are people threatened by Christians? Because most
>Christians believe that their God is the only True God.
Yes, we believe that. Why is that threatening?
>Because many believe that anyone who doesn't feel moved by the
>story of Jesus is going to hell and needs to be converted.
That's a pretty crude way of putting it. It's more than being "moved by the
story of Jesus," it's accepting that He died on the cross for the
forgiveness of our sins, and for the promise of eternal life. And we don't
feel that everyone "needs" to be converted. We feel that it is our duty to
spread the word of the Gospel, and it's up to the listener to make the
choice of whether to be converted or not. Other religions have a similar
philosophy about spreading the word about their beliefs. It's interesting
to me that Christianity is singled out for disapprobation in this regard.
But, why is this threatening?
>Because they can reduce the ignorance of indigenous and Pagan
>genocide to a surgical term like "syncretism".
I don't. I think that it is a shameful part of church history.
>Because the
>rhetoric of Christianity is replete with pejorative phrases
>full of self-righteousness such as "Our Savior" and "other
>gods".
Again, it is a belief system. You just happen not to agree with it. Again,
why is this threatening?
>It is personally difficult for me to listen to these
>words without disgust and anger; and the offense is on a very
>basic, gut level. Many Christians simply sound fanatical to me.
That is your opinion, but I don't see the basis for it. If you want, you
can explain further.
>The most exasperating thing about a lot of Christians I've
>known is their inability to consider the story of Jesus as
>only one of any number of methods capable of effecting
>spiritual transformation in the life of a human being, that
>salvation can come in many forms, that Jesus is not the only
>Savior.
Um, Paul, we're Christians. Jesus is our only Savior. It's what we
believe. It's what our Owner's manual, the Bible, says. It is not our duty
to hold beliefs that are watered down, more convenient, or less offensive to
others. We don't deny that there are other methods capable of effecting
spiritual transformation, but we believe that those lead to perdition. We
believe that Jesus is the only Savior, and we don't apologize for that.
There is no "Christianity Lite" that is in keeping with what the Bible says.
In fact, the Bible condemns watered down or distorted versions of
Christianity. Why do our beliefs exasperate you?
>I believe that if Jesus were alive today he would tear
>down his churches and scatter his people into the arms of
>other loving faiths.
You don't believe in Jesus, or youre not sure, but you want to say what you
think He would do if He were alive today? I hear this a lot. If you don't
believe in Christianity, why would you care what Jesus would or wouldn't do,
and why would you invoke His name? What it sounds like you're saying is
that you'd be happy if Christianity were destroyed, although Im sure that
was not your intention.
>Why are people threatened by Christianity? Because the most
>powerful nation in the world is a Christian nation.
Ours is a secular, materialistic nation. There is an unofficial public
religion that is professed by many of our nation's leaders, but it has as
much to do with Christianity as Santa Claus has to do with Jesus' birth.
There is no state religion, no prayer in public schools, no Ten Commandments
in our courthouses, and if there were, it still wouldn't mean anything.
Christianity, true Christianity, is not about public appearances or doing
lip service, it's about deep abiding faith, and transforming your life to
serve God.
>Because
>there is a man in a suit who stands within arm's length of
>ending the furious saga of human settlement on our planet by
>delivering us to his Christian God in a firestorm of nuclear
>annihilation.
I don't think that even Bush views things in quite that way, although
truthfully, I don't know what that man is thinking most of the time. It has
little to do with Christianity, though. See above comments on public
religion.
>Because the history of Christianity exhumes a
>retched and horrific violence no less bloody than that of any
>nation vying for geopolitical hegemony.
A lot of people have used Christianity to rationalize horrific behavior, but
again, that has everything to do with the evil that is in men's hearts, and
little to do with Christianity. Godless people use Christianity to
rationalize things that they would do anyway. God-fearing people use their
lives to glorify God by helping others. There are too many of the former,
and not enough of the latter.
>Because Christians
>today are the most visibly hypocritical people in the western
>world.
Okay, now you're ranting :-). You're free to explain what you mean, though.
>Because mainstream Christianity spectacularly fails to
>enlighten most people I know, even though ministers and
>preachers have the ears and hearts of hundreds of thousands of
>followers who crowd into their sanctuaries and open their
>minds to a new hope for a few crucial moments each week.
You don't seem to know a very broad range of Christians. The Christians I
know and associate with live every moment of their lives worshipping God,
not just for a "few crucial moments" on Sunday. I don't have a very high
opinion of televangelists. They can be helpful to some people, like
shut-ins, but if you really want to make a difference in your life, you need
to be involved in a local church where you can associate with real people in
a state of fellowship and mutual support.
>To most people I know the Christian metaphors are old, the
>stories are stale and the passion is dead. When someone has
>The Answer, when they are absolutely sure that they've found
>The Savior, The One And Only True God, what happens to
>curiosity? to empathy? to humility? to understanding?
Well, Paul, there are casual Christians, and then there are Christians. If
you're not dedicated, you'll get bored and fall away from the faith. That
happens. As for me, my curiosity, empathy, humility, and understanding are
more vibrant now than they were before I was a Christian. Truly, I didn't
have a reason for living before. Now I do.
>Being
>reborn is not something that happens once. It is continuous
>and it is painful. It happens when we realize we are wrong.
That's the most profound thing you've said so far, Paul. Being "born again"
is accepting Jesus as your Savior. However, it doesn't just end there.
What you're describing has a Christian counterpart called the indwelling of
the Holy Spirit. It's a continual process, and exceedingly fascinating.
It's joyful, at times painful, and it does have something to do with
realizing when we are wrong. I assure you, Christian faith doesn't stop
when you're born again.
>For most Christians I've known, love is enshrined within
>emotion and idolatrized, violence is debased by sin and their
>hearts are constricted with fear. Such people could live in a
>dying world and they would do nothing.
Okay, let me set you straight. For Christians, idolatry is thinking that
anything is more important than God. Love is an ideal for both Christians
and non-Christians alike, and both are emotional. The love and emotions are
just channeled towards different goals. For Christians, love is
externalized, focused on God and neighbor. (Okay, I admit that this is the
ideal that Christians strive for, and some people have a harder time
achieving this than others.) For non-Christians, there seems to be a
greater love of self. For Christians, violence IS sin, and the most fearful
people I've known are definitely non-Christians. Such people DO live in a
dying world. They fear for their jobs, for their lives, for their health.
They desire wealth and personal ambition. I fear nothing but God, but I
know that He is a just and loving God. And, I have confidence in eternity.
My world is a world of life.
>Nevertheless, I believe that Christianity is essentially about
>love and it's difficult to go too far astray if one simply
>tries to observe this. So, after having said all these things,
>I have to say that I love Christians for this. I just wish
>more of them were better lovers. Who am I to criticize,
>though? Love is quite a terrifying proposition in the world
>today and I have a lot to learn too.
You're ending on a very nice note. Hopefully, some of what I've said makes
sense to you. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian follows the faith
that Jesus taught in the Bible. The ones who do follow this faith are what
I would call fundamentalists (and true Christians), but they don't coincide
with what you call fundamentalists. Part of the problem is that we're using
the same words to describe different phenomena. You're using the word to
describe trigger-happy televangelists who are bent on assassinating world
leaders. I'm using the word to describe people who would give their lives
to help other people. I admit that we have beliefs that you might find
arrogant, but we're not going to change them to please the world--that would
be spiritual suicide. On the other hand, not all of us are the
warmongering, bloodthirsty, greedy, hypocritical people you think we are.
Thanks for the challenging discussion--we can both learn a lot.
--Phil
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